Might very well be a combination of issues:

- Big, expensive box that back in the day would be what you get for a big Christmas present ticket, price wise,
- Big rule changes that I'm not too sure anyone was asking for,
- New army construction rules much more limiting that puts a crimp on people who already was building armies (and who are probably the target audience for this),
- FLGS that are used to GW selling out and seem to have bought big,
- FLGSs ordering big because GW usually shrinks their orders on big items...

If many independent stores have ordered more than they're selling fast, they will notice, fast, as in the above example: that's way too much money not moving.

Looking for detailed reviews of the Liber books, specifically Liber Auxilia and Mechanicum. Has anyone found any good ones?

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Looking for detailed reviews of the Liber books, specifically Liber Auxilia and Mechanicum. Has anyone found any good ones?

Here are Goonhammer's reviews. I don't play either faction so I can't vouch for their reliability, but I found their reviews of the Marines fairly useful.

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-horus-heresy-third-edition-liber-solar-auxilia/

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-horus-heresy-third-edition-liber-mechanicum/

How big and active is HH community?

How much of HH can be used in or converted to other main games like 40k?

300 units sounds like a very very popular product and Im just wondering if its really that popular.

 NAVARRO wrote:
How big and active is HH community?

How much of HH can be used in or converted to other main games like 40k?

300 units sounds like a very very popular product and Im just wondering if its really that popular.

Apparently it's GW's third most popular game after WH40k and AoS.

Where does that metric come from? Not that i'm doubting it, if only due to space marines. But just curious.

HH isn't in the top 10 of games for US retailers, yet it is GWs 3rd main so one could assume it sells more than the other non main GW games as those don't make the top 10 either

But as the only public information are from US retailers and GW sells a lot via their own stores and non-US online shops, it is impossible to say how popular it really is
In addition some GW games being more popular in different regions is a thing, like how US favoured 40k and EU WHFB back in the days

Is there a list of whats been removed somewhere?

 Snord wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
How big and active is HH community?

How much of HH can be used in or converted to other main games like 40k?

300 units sounds like a very very popular product and Im just wondering if its really that popular.

Apparently it's GW's third most popular game after WH40k and AoS.

3rd most popular gw game? Thats impressive.
I dont follow specifically HH but overall I dont see relevant numbers of people painting it, blogging it, streaming, playing etc. Maybe its just one of those systems that online community is not that active but IRL they doing it etc... I see product boxes on the shelves but thats it.
Is there even gaming events for such big system?
Still 300 boxes at such price is a Huge investment

I've started getting emails from retailers pushing it today, some with increased discount.

 kodos wrote:
HH isn't in the top 10 of games for US retailers, yet it is GWs 3rd main so one could assume it sells more than the other non main GW games as those don't make the top 10 either

But as the only public information are from US retailers and GW sells a lot via their own stores and non-US online shops, it is impossible to say how popular it really is
In addition some GW games being more popular in different regions is a thing, like how US favoured 40k and EU WHFB back in the days

The metrics youre referring to are very flawed and shouldnt really be used as the basis for any discussion.

I'm reading chatter saying retailers are offering discounts for Saturnine. If you're considered buying a box, mayber better to hold off for a bit and see if you can get it at savings?

This sort of feels like Saturnine wasnt the summer blockbuster GW hoped it would be.. I hope they learn their lesson about cutting off options from their army books, absolutely HARAM

 NAVARRO wrote:

3rd most popular gw game? Thats impressive.
I dont follow specifically HH but overall I dont see relevant numbers of people painting it, blogging it, streaming, playing etc. Maybe its just one of those systems that online community is not that active but IRL they doing it etc... I see product boxes on the shelves but thats it.
Is there even gaming events for such big system?
Still 300 boxes at such price is a Huge investment

If you don't follow it you won't see it. Dakka doesn't have a large HH presence but B&C used to be a big hub for it. Instagram as well.

In the UK there are a lot of local communities especially in London and the Lead Belt that do a lot of HH gaming and it's pretty easy to get events in England.

I didn't expect what is essentially a new starter box to sell out when the 2E one didn't.

I guess you might be able to track how well things are selling by add on sales. For example if you look at webstores like Darksphere you can see stock levels. Meaning if nothing really moves post launch then we might be dealing with a dud. On that note Darksphere probably have the best discount available atm. £156 pounds not including shipping.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 kodos wrote:
HH isn't in the top 10 of games for US retailers, yet it is GWs 3rd main so one could assume it sells more than the other non main GW games as those don't make the top 10 either

But as the only public information are from US retailers and GW sells a lot via their own stores and non-US online shops, it is impossible to say how popular it really is
In addition some GW games being more popular in different regions is a thing, like how US favoured 40k and EU WHFB back in the days

The metrics youre referring to are very flawed and shouldnt really be used as the basis for any discussion.

I know, but it is still the only thing we have
How popular is HH? Only GW knows
Does 3rd Edi fails? Only GW knows
Are they ever going to tell us? For sure not

We only know that US retailers in the past didn't sold a lot
Maybe EU or Asia sold a lot but we have no data
The only thing we know is that starter boxes not selling out on pre-order is a bad sign in the GW bubble as overestimate demand doesn't go well with their business model

 Gael Knight wrote:
I didn't expect what is essentially a new starter box to sell out when the 2E one didn't.

I guess you might be able to track how well things are selling by add on sales. For example if you look at webstores like Darksphere you can see stock levels. Meaning if nothing really moves post launch then we might be dealing with a dud. On that note Darksphere probably have the best discount available atm. £156 pounds not including shipping.

The 2E one didn't? I mean, it absolutely did sell out on release, at least over here, and on the GW page from what I remember seeing here at the time (I guess I might be misremembering?).

You could buy it after restocks, of course... because it wasn't a one-off. Buit that's a different thing.

 tauist wrote:
I'm reading chatter saying retailers are offering discounts for Saturnine. If you're considered buying a box, mayber better to hold off for a bit and see if you can get it at savings?

This sort of feels like Saturnine wasnt the summer blockbuster GW hoped it would be.. I hope they learn their lesson about cutting off options from their army books, absolutely HARAM

The shops bought the stock already GW won't care.

I will 100% get dumped on for this but just to throw out some factors against it being a big hit, YMMV on a person to person basis on how each much impacts:

Existing players:
- They cut off a lot of units/options upsetting people
- Mental load of being on the edition treadmill is off-putting
- People are very marmite on the new minis in the launch box
- There's some strong whiff of modern 40k to the rules
- DLC roadmap feeling like a milking opportunity
- Division over played editions

I'll preface this by making a fairly safe assumption the majority of people segway into HH from 40k, happy to be wrong.

New players:
- Met with a wall of negativity
- All marines all the time is something a lot of 40k players want less of anyway
- No small game size support
- Other factions largely suffer from relying on large volumes of resin support
- The rules and rulebook aren't easy to parse or get on with compared to other offerings
- Same concerns on DLC and being milked
- Seemingly smaller/harder to access community
- It's a lot of money to buy Saturnine in the first place

So when you factor that all in, the box is mostly aimed at people wanting the new shiny stuff for their army and either being ignorant of the wider context, not caring or being new to the system but on board with the marine-centric nature.

It's not a game as easy to pick up and get into as 40k, the player base is smaller, regardless anyone's protestations there are certainly more gatekeeper elements and demands a larger cash and time investment to get up and running on the whole. So I am shocked any retailer would be expecting to shift hundreds of this box to be honest. Even without knowledge of the online state, it still exists as a niche product in a setting that's a stream branching off the mile wide river of 40k, so you'd have to assume the stock levels wouldn't need to be anywhere near. Add to the removed FOMO of it being a shelf product and not a launch box and there's less incentive to drop on it day 1 at a higher than usual price for an entry product.

 Albertorius wrote:

- FLGS that are used to GW selling out and seem to have bought big,
- FLGSs ordering big because GW usually shrinks their orders on big items...

Not sure this is so accurate for new edition starter boxes. Neither Leviathan nor Skaventide sold out, did they? And stores were able to order their fill.

Its probably nothing but I just noticed something interesting in the URL of the Saturnine images.
They are all called AgeofDarknessSaturnine2ndEditionFirstWaveCoreGame
2nd Edition makes sense if they see it as the second edition since HH joined the main games but the FirstWaveCoreGame makes me think we might get another (probably smaller) starter during this edition instead of keeping the big box for the whole edition like last time

 Altruizine wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

- FLGS that are used to GW selling out and seem to have bought big,
- FLGSs ordering big because GW usually shrinks their orders on big items...

Not sure this is so accurate for new edition starter boxes. Neither Leviathan nor Skaventide sold out, did they? And stores were able to order their fill.

Locally Leviathan at least did sell out too, I can't really say for Skaventide.

 Altruizine wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

- FLGS that are used to GW selling out and seem to have bought big,
- FLGSs ordering big because GW usually shrinks their orders on big items...

Not sure this is so accurate for new edition starter boxes. Neither Leviathan nor Skaventide sold out, did they? And stores were able to order their fill.

Nah, neither did. A couple of my locals had stacks of Leviathan for a long time and Element had it plastered on their front page long after the initial Fomo passed. I wish they would rethink this whole launch box strategy, i feel like Indomitus was lightning in a bottle and has never really worked for any system since.

I'm pretty sure it will fix itself, given time.

Have we seen the pages for Techmarines and Apothocarys?

 Nicorex wrote:
Have we seen the pages for Techmarines and Apothocarys?

Yes. The Apothecary page is quite... hard to parse.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Altruizine wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

- FLGS that are used to GW selling out and seem to have bought big,
- FLGSs ordering big because GW usually shrinks their orders on big items...

Not sure this is so accurate for new edition starter boxes. Neither Leviathan nor Skaventide sold out, did they? And stores were able to order their fill.

Nah, neither did. A couple of my locals had stacks of Leviathan for a long time and Element had it plastered on their front page long after the initial Fomo passed. I wish they would rethink this whole launch box strategy, i feel like Indomitus was lightning in a bottle and has never really worked for any system since.

Wait, what's wrong with it? Everybody who wants a copy has like ~6 months to get one or whatever. That's cool. It's only a bad paradigm from the POV of pundit freaks who think not selling out means the game is dying or whatever.

 Snord wrote:

 Mr_Rose wrote:
Looking for detailed reviews of the Liber books, specifically Liber Auxilia and Mechanicum. Has anyone found any good ones?

Here are Goonhammer's reviews. I don't play either faction so I can't vouch for their reliability, but I found their reviews of the Marines fairly useful.

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-horus-heresy-third-edition-liber-solar-auxilia/

https://www.goonhammer.com/goonhammer-reviews-horus-heresy-third-edition-liber-mechanicum/

The Solar Auxilia review, in conjunction with Sprues and Brews youtube video review have me pretty hyped for Solar Auxilia.

Just assembled my first 10 Veletaris and a Tactical Command last night. Going to prime them when I get home tonight then jump into the two boxes of Lasrifle Sections.

Anyone care to share the sources for supposedly discounted Saturnine sets?

lol

I'd also like to know this.

Cheapest in the UK is £155 as far as I know?

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I'd also like to know this.

Cheapest in the UK is £155 as far as I know?

Same, it's more I've seen places that offer 10 or 15% discount going to 20%.

 Matrindur wrote:
Its probably nothing but I just noticed something interesting in the URL of the Saturnine images.
They are all called AgeofDarknessSaturnine2ndEditionFirstWaveCoreGame
2nd Edition makes sense if they see it as the second edition since HH joined the main games but the FirstWaveCoreGame makes me think we might get another (probably smaller) starter during this edition instead of keeping the big box for the whole edition like last time

It's nothing. Title page of the book of the book literally says "Warhammer The Horus Heresy 3rd Edition Rules".

Wonder when they are going to restock the resin models at the GW site...

I noticed all the Alpha Legion models returned... just played slightly different.

The Saturnine model are very marmite, so I'm guessing that lots of people just went for the book rather than buy a box with models they dislike.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wonder when they are going to restock the resin models at the GW site...

I noticed all the Alpha Legion models returned... just played slightly different.

I put the Death Guard Praetors on notification months ago and nothing has happened since.

My plans changed from:

2 x big box
1 x each Liber
1 x "Isstvan...Again?" campaign book

to:

1 x big box
1 x "Isstvan...Again?" campaign book

I'm in "wait and see" mode on the game as a whole with all the changes, and on the Libers in particular due to all the loss of options.

I do love the Saturnine Termis and Dread though, so I'll probably get more of them eventually...

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wonder when they are going to restock the resin models at the GW site...

I noticed all the Alpha Legion models returned... just played slightly different.

I put the Death Guard Praetors on notification months ago and nothing has happened since.

Yeah. Hopefully something gets put back on there. I want to spend money on their stuff, but it kinda sucks when you can't buy what you need to play.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Anyone care to share the sources for supposedly discounted Saturnine sets?

lol

Based on the source of the report I suspect it's merely agitprop.

You don't need anymore stuff, though, brother! Finish painting what you got last time!

purchase0xomega wrote:

Got my orders in, 1 copy of the box from one store, 2 copies of the box from another plus 2 kratos, 1 deimos, 1 liber hereticus, 1 liber astartes, 1 special weapon upgrade, 1 heavy weapon upgrade. Best part is the kratos and deimos are free and the rest is at a 25%+ discount

I build, i rarely paint. Gives me anxiety.

To me the biggest kick in the balls is the fact that they are 100% aware of how gak this new edition was. They showed so much stuff in all these articles but not a single profile for a resin legion specific unit, or a consul, or anything that showed the massive cuts they had made. They knowingly withheld that info from us cause they knew it would be a titanic gak-storm hoping nobody would leak anything and people would only find all this trash info out AFTER they pre-ordered 6 books and $500 in miniatures. And on top of all that, they flat out lied twice.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
To me the biggest kick in the balls is the fact that they are 100% aware of how gak this new edition was. They showed so much stuff in all these articles but not a single profile for a resin legion specific unit, or a consul, or anything that showed the massive cuts they had made. They knowingly withheld that info from us cause they knew it would be a titanic gak-storm hoping nobody would leak anything and people would only find all this trash info out AFTER they pre-ordered 6 books and $500 in miniatures. And on top of all that, they flat out lied twice.

Hmmm. If my dumb hillbilly self could figure out how to post videos, I'd totally post the Pirates of the Caribbean video of that guy saying "First time?" Right now.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
To me the biggest kick in the balls is the fact that they are 100% aware of how gak this new edition was. They showed so much stuff in all these articles but not a single profile for a resin legion specific unit, or a consul, or anything that showed the massive cuts they had made. They knowingly withheld that info from us cause they knew it would be a titanic gak-storm hoping nobody would leak anything and people would only find all this trash info out AFTER they pre-ordered 6 books and $500 in miniatures. And on top of all that, they flat out lied twice.

Hmmm. If my dumb hillbilly self could figure out how to post videos, I'd totally post the Pirates of the Caribbean video of that guy saying "First time?" Right now.

It's The Ballad of Buster Scruggs, not Pirates of the Caribbean.

chaos0xomega wrote:
I build, i rarely paint. Gives me anxiety.

Quoted for truth...

 Snord wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
I build, i rarely paint. Gives me anxiety.

Quoted for truth...

We need to start our own faction...

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
To me the biggest kick in the balls is the fact that they are 100% aware of how gak this new edition was. They showed so much stuff in all these articles but not a single profile for a resin legion specific unit, or a consul, or anything that showed the massive cuts they had made. They knowingly withheld that info from us cause they knew it would be a titanic gak-storm hoping nobody would leak anything and people would only find all this trash info out AFTER they pre-ordered 6 books and $500 in miniatures. And on top of all that, they flat out lied twice.

Hmmm. If my dumb hillbilly self could figure out how to post videos, I'd totally post the Pirates of the Caribbean video of that guy saying "First time?" Right now.

Nah, it happened to me when they blew up Fantasy for AOS and said "It's ok! You can still use your armies!" and over the next 3 editions the amount of Fantasy minis you could use was slowly eroded before basically being non-existent.

Then It happened when they introduced Primaris Marines and said "It's ok! You can still use your armies!" and over the next 3 editions the amount of Firstborn minis you could use was slowly eroded away before basically being non-existent.

And now it happened when they said in HH3.0 "It's ok! You can still use your armies!" and swept the fething rug out from under an entire community that hard-carried your 3rd best selling miniature game for over a decade.

And then after a few years they bring it all back and make it all usable again. Sometimes 5, sometimes 15. I do wonder what those people who burned their entire elf army thought then old world came out and turned out to be pretty solid.

cody.d. wrote:
And then after a few years they bring it all back and make it all usable again. Sometimes 5, sometimes 15. I do wonder what those people who burned their entire elf army thought then old world came out and turned out to be pretty solid.

I was one of those poor sods who put his Bretonians up for sale.

But I think GW will course correct and put out rules for most of the missing models.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
And then after a few years they bring it all back and make it all usable again. Sometimes 5, sometimes 15. I do wonder what those people who burned their entire elf army thought then old world came out and turned out to be pretty solid.

I was one of those poor sods who put his Bretonians up for sale.

But I think GW will course correct and put out rules for most of the missing models.

Sure, for general stuff look no further than the Legends PDFs they've told you are coming. And that are going to be game/tourney/event legal!
But yet most of these people are going to keep right on about how they've deleted this or that unit, invalidated their forces, etc etc etc.

We all know what Legends means: Legal for one more edition and then gone.

I think you're putting too much faith in the Legends PDF honestly. The removals are both wide and deep, and in my opinion go further than a simple errata can fix. For example you'd have to start adding 2 more entries per Consul to accommodate Jump, Cataphractii and Tartaros variants. That alone is what, 20+ new entries?
As well as introducing bike and jetbike options for the power armoured variants. Every one of them needs their wargear options back as well.

Edit- I'm getting confused between which options are wargear and which are entirely new profiles.

Yea what are they going to do, put the entire 2.0 Libres in Legends that's legal alongside the 3.0 Libre?

I see them cherry-picking a few units and giving them rules alongside an article on converting them. So maybe Destroyers would find a way back, and possibly characters on jetbikes (pretty rare in the lists I've seen, but very cool modelling subjects). I can't see them adding multiple weapon options back in, and less common units like Grey Stalkers will likely stay dead.

The ironic thing about removing all the Consul weapon options that aren't depicted on the resin models is most of those models are almost permanently unavailable online, so people are still going to resort to converting and 3-D printers...

Yeah its too extensive to fix with a pdf and honestly, If thats the case they should make a free updated liber book set for both loyalties. Theres too much to fix and re-add.

ccs wrote:

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

cody.d. wrote:
And then after a few years they bring it all back and make it all usable again. Sometimes 5, sometimes 15. I do wonder what those people who burned their entire elf army thought then old world came out and turned out to be pretty solid.

I was one of those poor sods who put his Bretonians up for sale.

But I think GW will course correct and put out rules for most of the missing models.

Sure, for general stuff look no further than the Legends PDFs they've told you are coming. And that are going to be game/tourney/event legal!
But yet most of these people are going to keep right on about how they've deleted this or that unit, invalidated their forces, etc etc etc.

You do grasp that to fully restore what was lost they would essentially have to give us a second Liber, right? For free. "Wait for the previews", "wait for the libers", now it's "wait for the Legacies PDF" and no doubt once that turns out to be a wet fart in a quiet room people like yourself will be back with "omg stop overreacting, just wait for the Journal Tacticas to slowly add everything back at your expense you ingrates"

Heresy Hammer have done a pretty good episode on 3rd Edition:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVJ_GBnDdxQ

Warning - their language can be a bit fruity…

Ya all the people that are like wait for the legacies PDF mise well be paid company shills.

We have all watched GW do this to basically every single one of their other games---new edition....a bunch of stuff to legacies you "can" still play----not like you would want to for many of the crap profiles/point costs they gave them with no balance or updates anymore.

Then 2-3 years if that long later they do yet another new edition and all the legacies are gone from the game. Anything on the legacy list is basically removed from the game.

Anyone that supports the company at this point just likes to waste money......3d print or other methods are by far the best method to get the models at much more cost effective price points since the company has no desire to really respect or support the community and customers it has.

One of the biggest churn profits for GW is the constant rule book churn everyone buys, stop buying the new books and they will make changes to how they do things. You can tell this as its why they are trying to get rid of the models since they can be sold on and undercut the ridiculous full retail price GW asks. The books tho they can just invalidate every couple years then get full profit on them when all the lemmings buy them again in 2 years.

 The Phazer wrote:

 Nicorex wrote:
Have we seen the pages for Techmarines and Apothocarys?

Yes. The Apothecary page is quite... hard to parse.

Anyway to share a link to it?

chaos45 wrote:
Ya all the people that are like wait for the legacies PDF mise well be paid company shills.

We have all watched GW do this to basically every single one of their other games---new edition....a bunch of stuff to legacies you "can" still play----not like you would want to for many of the crap profiles/point costs they gave them with no balance or updates anymore.

For Necromunda, they put up PDFs for all the House gangs at the start, and then released books (several times!) with the rules in print. I can only presume that for this, all the legends units will be used as filler for the upcoming Journals, as they release new models for them.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

chaos45 wrote:
Ya all the people that are like wait for the legacies PDF mise well be paid company shills.

We have all watched GW do this to basically every single one of their other games---new edition....a bunch of stuff to legacies you "can" still play----not like you would want to for many of the crap profiles/point costs they gave them with no balance or updates anymore.

For Necromunda, they put up PDFs for all the House gangs at the start, and then released books (several times!) with the rules in print. I can only presume that for this, all the legends units will be used as filler for the upcoming Journals, as they release new models for them.

I wouldnt count on it. Based on AoS and 40k which are systems closer in size to 30k they didnt do that for any of the legacy models. 40k models once legacy are then completely gone next edition same with AoS.

As i mentioned i did order the box set because I'm sure even compared to second hand for all the models its a decent deal but not buying the dead tree stuff they can keep it and i can just use 2nd ed rules for the few times i have time to play with friends. Its easy enough to convert the saturine/new wpns to 2nd ed. Think I already saw some PDFs of groups that have done just that.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
We all know what Legends means: Legal for one more edition and then gone.

Look, for whatever lands in the Legacy category? You've got two choices:
1) Stop playing with your toys now for whatever reason you can justify.
2) Play with it for as long as it's got rules.

I remember when they took plasma pistols away from assault squads in I think 2E, and in my local GW they ran a whole session where you could bring your models in and they'd give you bolt pistols and help you swap them out.

Unthinkable now. Just send it to landfill and buy our new things, walking wallet

Mozzamanx wrote:
I think you're putting too much faith in the Legends PDF honestly. The removals are both wide and deep, and in my opinion go further than a simple errata can fix. For example you'd have to start adding 2 more entries per Consul to accommodate Jump, Cataphractii and Tartaros variants. That alone is what, 20+ new entries?
As well as introducing bike and jetbike options for the power armoured variants. Every one of them needs their wargear options back as well.

OMG! 20(+) entries!

Clearly you know nothing about 40k Legends.... For the Imperium factions alone there are at least 80 entries (maybe a few more).
And there's about that many more covering Chaos/Xenos/Unaligned combined.
The majority of these were created at the dawn of 10 - either Legends specific for things already Legends in 8e/9e, or for the Index lists that were then copy-pasted to Legends when the relevant Codex arrived.
And then there's one off things that have come out since - Provisionally Prepared, Hells Last, the annual Red Gobbo, etc
But the vast majority were created at the dawn of 10e.

So it's entirely to do a mere 20ish - especially when it's virtually all Marines.

That's 20+ in the new format just to accomidate what was 3 HQ models in 2.0, buddy. To restore everything would be hundreds.

chaos45 wrote:

Anyone that supports the company at this point just likes to waste money......3d print or other methods are by far the best method to get the models at much more cost effective price points since the company has no desire to really respect or support the community and customers it has.

Look, I've explained this to you anti-GW types (maybe even you specifically) before.
They make models, I buy models.
When they make models that satisfy me concerning Price/Quality (including sculpt, material, etc)/My interests & needs/Availability (to an extent)? They get my $.
When they fail? They don't make a sale.
It's that simple.
I foresee this pattern continuing until I'm dead or shortly before. Or they go out of business. Wichever comes 1st. And I know wich I'm betting on.

Billicus wrote:
I remember when they took plasma pistols away from assault squads in I think 2E, and in my local GW they ran a whole session where you could bring your models in and they'd give you bolt pistols and help you swap them out.

Unthinkable now. Just send it to landfill and buy our new things, walking wallet

Oh, yes! They even called it PISTOL AMNESTY when they promoted it in White Dwarf!

chaos45 wrote:
40k models once legacy are then completely gone next edition same with AoS.

I keep seeing this posited, but I'm not convinced it's entirely accurate. I know there are a large number of named characters they dropped even Legends support for, but they at least gave examples of what you could use the models as.

No idea what will be revealed on friday but I found it interesting they mentioned the scenarios for Titans. A plastic titan would be a show stealer and would overshadow even marine reveals.

There will be a plastic thunderhawk before a plastic titan. And before then, solar aux needs their plastic superheavies, plus the glaive and falchion

 Shakalooloo wrote:

Billicus wrote:
I remember when they took plasma pistols away from assault squads in I think 2E, and in my local GW they ran a whole session where you could bring your models in and they'd give you bolt pistols and help you swap them out.

Unthinkable now. Just send it to landfill and buy our new things, walking wallet

Oh, yes! They even called it PISTOL AMNESTY when they promoted it in White Dwarf!

That's the one! So there was a time when people at GW understood invalidating people's lovingly crafted models was a big deal. Now we're actually calling eachother out for having the gall to be upset about it at all. Stunning really

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
There will be a plastic thunderhawk before a plastic titan. And before then, solar aux needs their plastic superheavies, plus the glaive and falchion

And I think both of those releases are big enough that they would warrant pre-preview teases (like Sisters, Votann, etc.)

They wouldn't just be casually dropped as part of a boilerplate preview show, I don't think.

Probably?
We haven't seen the wall-o-clocks since Duncan left though, and "plastic thunderhawk" was on there...

More seriously though, they've had plastic fellblades in the background of battle photos ever since 3rd ed was announced.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
There will be a plastic thunderhawk before a plastic titan. And before then, solar aux needs their plastic superheavies, plus the glaive and falchion

Well, there's been more talk of a plastic Titan than a plastic Thunderhawk, but that too would be a show stealer.

I think GW did actually mention on a previous roadmap that we'd see new tanks this year, so now is certainly the time to show them.

anyone know how the 7th legion was effected by the rules changes.

 ashlevrier wrote:
anyone know how the 7th legion was effected by the rules changes.

-Looks like illastus assault cannons are now only available on the special IF pintle mount character and the Castellan Centurion upgrade. So no more assault cannon squads, or non decurion assault cannon pintle mounts, or assault cannons in contemptor fists.
-Phalanx Warders lost the ability to take bolters and special weapons for every 5 dudes. Templar brethren have to replace their bolt pistol for a combat shield, even though the model carries a shield with a bolt pistol underneath.
-Vigil storm shields now give you a 4+ invulnerable save and the heavy subtype. So literally no point in taking them on cataphractii terminators in which they are designed for already.

All in all, utterly trash for the 7th, as well as most the other legions. Characters are characters whatever, didn't bother looking.

Billicus wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

Billicus wrote:
I remember when they took plasma pistols away from assault squads in I think 2E, and in my local GW they ran a whole session where you could bring your models in and they'd give you bolt pistols and help you swap them out.

Unthinkable now. Just send it to landfill and buy our new things, walking wallet

Oh, yes! They even called it PISTOL AMNESTY when they promoted it in White Dwarf!

That's the one! So there was a time when people at GW understood invalidating people's lovingly crafted models was a big deal. Now we're actually calling eachother out for having the gall to be upset about it at all. Stunning really

I do think GW should try and be a bit more cognisant about the impact these updates have on gaming communities and the human beings that comprise them - this I think sometimes gets lost in trying to maximise revenue and deliver shareholder value.

We saw it before with Fantasy, the killing of which actually reduced a colleague of mine to tears. It wasn't so much the games themselves, but it was the loss of community. He so looked forward to the annual trips to Europe to take part in tournaments, they were the highlight of his life. And that was taken away.

As in that case, these updates will see communities split between v2 and v3 and some will leave. The only positive is that a company seemingly operating a monopoly (or overbearingly dominant) and treating its customers contemptuously as walking purses does mean other games will get an up-tick in players, which is probably healthy for the industry, as happened when WHFB was discontinued.

 Altruizine wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
There will be a plastic thunderhawk before a plastic titan. And before then, solar aux needs their plastic superheavies, plus the glaive and falchion

And I think both of those releases are big enough that they would warrant pre-preview teases (like Sisters, Votann, etc.)

They wouldn't just be casually dropped as part of a boilerplate preview show, I don't think.

Ah, but thats just the point, they need a huge "distraction carnifex" right now, so might drop something really spectacular.

Plastic Thunderhawk would be nice, NGL. I got one in my LI scale army "sketch", and while I'd like to have one for 28mil as well, it just isn't happening with the current resin model. The resin models weight alone makes it something that'd be a pain to store/move, require pinning etc, sounds like an absolute non-starter to someone like me. Sales of that one would be off the hook

Plus, if we got a plastic Thunderhawk, I could recreate that famous FW resin terrain bit with the crashed 'hawk.. would look brill and still be sort of manageable in terms of weight etc

AT Imperator would be good.

If they do release a plastic thunderhawk it better be able to build the transport version as well

So we're on plastic thunderhawk wishlisting for absolutely no reason again for the 47th time in 20 years?

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So we're on plastic thunderhawk wishlisting for absolutely no reason again for the 47th time in 20 years?

You're forgetting the previous 20 years that came before that too

Well, dunno about a Thunderhawk.

But we did get some teasers from the last preview.



Seems to be Cataphractii armour. Unsure if new unit box, or character.



Certainly Mechanicum. Possibly Dark.



Auramite Spear, almost certainly Custards.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
So we're on plastic thunderhawk wishlisting for absolutely no reason again for the 47th time in 20 years?

Why the heck not? I aint got anything better to ishpost rn

slightly more realistic wishlisting - Proteus Land Speeder, Dreadclaw in plastic (both DC and that biggest dropper, Kharybdis, were featured in a recent HH illustration with photoshopped models), MKV in plastic

 tauist wrote:
slightly more realistic wishlisting - Proteus Land Speeder, Dreadclaw in plastic (both DC and that biggest dropper, Kharybdis, were featured in a recent HH illustration with photoshopped models), MKV in plastic

Good calls. I'd go for the Javelin over the Proteus though.

 Pacific wrote:

Billicus wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

Billicus wrote:
I remember when they took plasma pistols away from assault squads in I think 2E, and in my local GW they ran a whole session where you could bring your models in and they'd give you bolt pistols and help you swap them out.

Unthinkable now. Just send it to landfill and buy our new things, walking wallet

Oh, yes! They even called it PISTOL AMNESTY when they promoted it in White Dwarf!

That's the one! So there was a time when people at GW understood invalidating people's lovingly crafted models was a big deal. Now we're actually calling eachother out for having the gall to be upset about it at all. Stunning really

I do think GW should try and be a bit more cognisant about the impact these updates have on gaming communities and the human beings that comprise them - this I think sometimes gets lost in trying to maximise revenue and deliver shareholder value.

We saw it before with Fantasy, the killing of which actually reduced a colleague of mine to tears. It wasn't so much the games themselves, but it was the loss of community. He so looked forward to the annual trips to Europe to take part in tournaments, they were the highlight of his life. And that was taken away.

As in that case, these updates will see communities split between v2 and v3 and some will leave. The only positive is that a company seemingly operating a monopoly (or overbearingly dominant) and treating its customers contemptuously as walking purses does mean other games will get an up-tick in players, which is probably healthy for the industry, as happened when WHFB was discontinued.

GW had that as late as 8th edition. When that started they gave players the opportunity to refund Codizes bought 6 months before the announcement of 8th.
We also got test rules in WD, a community driven campaign, Apocalypse rules that integrated FW rules and OOP models and other things that just tried to get people involved and rebuild some trust into the company. Nothing of that survived the transition to 9th edition.

Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

I have a feeling this was cobbled together and pushed out ASAP. As for myself, I’ve cancelled my admittedly small pre order. Think I’ll wait for the dust to settle and to see how things are before I look to pick anything up. I can always grab things 2nd hand if I fancy a few MkIIs

From the article: "The army lists in the Liber books are a reflection of the current range of miniatures. They are written to reflect the contents of boxed units, so new players can build armies without feeling the need to buy multiple kits just to make one unit."

Ummm, so what is the point of the boxes of special/heavy/melee weapons then...? Or are they going to be being removed?

Just such a lame excuse for what they're doing.

This edition will continually expand the miniatures range in plastic – including some units in this Legacy list, which will return with new designs and possibly new weapon options and wargear.

Wonder what they’ll be.

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

Damn, they really wrote out that massive list of stuff they dropped and it didn't click for them just how messed up that is? Likem damn! That list goes on and on for over a page!

I hope whoever made this idiotic decision is currently being excoriated for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This edition will continually expand the miniatures range in plastic – including some units in this Legacy list, which will return with new designs and possibly new weapon options and wargear.

Wonder what they’ll be.

Personally, I am hopeful the new Mechanicum list means we at least get plastic Tech Priests and Scyllax.

Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Which GW has been hard rolling out. It's why even things like twin-linked-devourer winged tyrants are out despite being super popular for years because the HT kit doesn't have enough devourers to make the model. Even though you'd have ample spares from just buying one carnifex kit.


On the one hand the hyper-extreme angle of it is very unfriendly to gamers; esp as even when GW clearly plans to bring back old options with updated models; those updates could take years to appear on the market.

On the other hand for newbies it makes the game much more accessible. No having to work out IF other parts are in other kits; no having to buy two or three kits to build one model; no having to convert to get all the options.

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?
Or would you like me to wait a few more days?

 zedmeister wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

I have a feeling this was cobbled together and pushed out ASAP. As for myself, I’ve cancelled my admittedly small pre order. Think I’ll wait for the dust to settle and to see how things are before I look to pick anything up. I can always grab things 2nd hand if I fancy a few MkIIs

This was announced ages ago, including that everything in it would be legal in all formats...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This edition will continually expand the miniatures range in plastic – including some units in this Legacy list, which will return with new designs and possibly new weapon options and wargear.

Wonder what they’ll be.

I imagine Destroyers and the Solar Aux vehicles are a likely place for them to start, especially the Bane Blade chassis (I can dream, right?).

Mildly amused that the Sanguinary Guard are going back to not having rules again, although the Ofanim reflect them well enough that I'm not too bothered.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

Damn, they really wrote out that massive list of stuff they dropped and it didn't click for them just how messed up that is? Likem damn! That list goes on and on for over a page!

I hope whoever made this idiotic decision is currently being excoriated for it.

Consequences for bad game design and anti custommer practices in gw? Are you well friend?

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of
On the other hand for newbies it makes the game much more accessible. No having to work out IF other parts are in other kits; no having to buy two or three kits to build one model; no having to convert to get all the options.

Except that's literally baked into the HH model design, unless you think they're going to stop selling the upgrade sets. Honestly, the idea that they can't conceive of someone use their own plastic melee weapons set to convert a HQ model (be it plastic or resin) is beyond stupid.

ccs wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?
Or would you like me to wait a few more days?

GW would allow people to seethe a few days, seems only fair.

Okay, standing back from it all a bit, I’m prepared to accept that this pdf was probably always going to look something like this, and it’s on this basis that GW assured everyone that their existing armies would still remain valid. They may have intended to put it out when the libers became available, but got caught out by the libers being leaked early (just as their initial marketing campaign was sabotaged by those leaked photos of the box). It’s still a messy approach, and the fact that they are clearly going to dick around with unit options etc as new kits are released just emphasises how quickly this edition is going to get modified then superseded. It still feels like a work-in-progress and not a finished game.

Dudeface wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?
Or would you like me to wait a few more days?

GW would allow people to seethe a few days, seems only fair.

Hmm. I guess I could wait until I've read what the "additional wargear options" contain.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This edition will continually expand the miniatures range in plastic – including some units in this Legacy list, which will return with new designs and possibly new weapon options and wargear.

Wonder what they’ll be.

It's a pretty safe bet that they will be releasing an updated Tartaros kit without Power Fists

Wonder if the Dominus will magically get remembered as part of the Knight arsenal for 30k.


"Hey, Magos Johnny, why aren't we using all the Knights we've had on Mars to go fight Horus and his Dark Mechanicum cronies?"

"Whoops, they were all destroyed offscreen and it will take us a long time to make new ones."

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Which GW has been hard rolling out. It's why even things like twin-linked-devourer winged tyrants are out despite being super popular for years because the HT kit doesn't have enough devourers to make the model. Even though you'd have ample spares from just buying one carnifex kit.

That's the rub though, assuming the leaked Libers weren't inaccurate for some reason; then we already know this reasoning is categorically bullgak.
There are units that have options in their box but lost them like Tartaros not having chain/power fists, and multiple Legion specialists have data sheets where some of their remaining options aren't in the kit or (in the case of AL Lernaeans) even gained new options in the Liber.

 Overread wrote:
On the one hand the hyper-extreme angle of it is very unfriendly to gamers; esp as even when GW clearly plans to bring back old options with updated models; those updates could take years to appear on the market.

On the other hand for newbies it makes the game much more accessible. No having to work out IF other parts are in other kits; no having to buy two or three kits to build one model; no having to convert to get all the options.

I've seen other people say this (it's essentially what GW is trying to claim as well), but that doesn't really make sense at all.
Ignoring the exceptions I mentioned above for a moment, GW just said in this community post that nearly all missing options will be in the Legacy PDF and...
"we fully intend for players with existing armies to use these Legacy units in their games, including in competitive play. These are no less official than those units with rules in the Liber books.".

That means that on day 1 an enormous list of options not in the kit and not written in the Liber are in fact legal in every gameplay format at launch, by GW's decree, found only in a supplementary pdf downloadable on WarCom.

So now new players, who are supposed to be the beneficiaries of this change, can be legally gotcha'd the first time they play a game and find out half the Liber is basically not printed in the book.
Plus now anytime someone wants to plan an army project or write a list, they have to cross reference between the Liber and the pdf to see what options are actually available.
They have effectively made it more confusing and deceptive than if they just printed all the options in the Liber to begin with...

And the real question is why...
Was this to save on page space?
To try any dissuade people from building these options because they'll be removed in HH4.0?
Are all of these options going to be superseded by Journal Tacticas at some point?

It's just baffling to think that GW intended this as the end result rather than as some sort of reaction to community backlash.

Edit - added my little final though, adjusted length and clarity

 Overread wrote:
On the other hand for newbies it makes the game much more accessible. No having to work out IF other parts are in other kits; no having to buy two or three kits to build one model; no having to convert to get all the options.

Does it make a material difference, though? If a new player already has to wade through the rulebook, the army book, and learn all the units, is it really such a barrier to entry if some of the unit options aren't in the box? I feel like the executives think it is, but I am skeptical about that on a personal level.

ccs wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?
Or would you like me to wait a few more days?

GW would allow people to seethe a few days, seems only fair.

Hmm. I guess I could wait until I've read what the "additional wargear options" contain.

Let's be frank, I can count on my thumbs the number of times "wait and see" actually paid off with GW, so you were placing the long bet here really from most peoples perspective.

I must agree with the poster above who said this will just make everything more confusing for new players, not less. Sure, now they dont need to 3D print bitz et al.. UNTIL they face their first opponent who has 90% legacies based army and ROFLstomps their cookie cutter loadout units

GW's immutable rules such as "all options must come in the kit", NMNR and "No using kits from other GW games allowed!" these days are really making them look incompetent.

Proof of the pudding will be in the eating, it's the "additional wargear options" part that is the kicker. No I don't think GW confirming what we already knew (that a legacy document is coming and will contain rules for some of the removed units) is much of a "told you so" moment

 tauist wrote:

GW's immutable rules such as "all options must come in the kit", NMNR and "No using kits from other GW games allowed!" these days are really making them look incompetent.

In theory at least a hard line now means that its done. No long slow change like 40K had where you were kind of unsure how strict they were going to be or not.

Also now that it's done things can only improve thereafter.

Man, I never realized how awful and stupid-looking some of the stuff made for Heresy is.

Like that picture in today's article of the marines dual-wielding bolt pistols, with the one in the centre wielding something out of Powerwash Simulator... shocking to see. As bad as the t-shirt cannon fellas.

 cole1114 wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

I have a feeling this was cobbled together and pushed out ASAP. As for myself, I’ve cancelled my admittedly small pre order. Think I’ll wait for the dust to settle and to see how things are before I look to pick anything up. I can always grab things 2nd hand if I fancy a few MkIIs

This was announced ages ago, including that everything in it would be legal in all formats...

You'd think they'd have had their tame influencers mention the fact in their embargoed previews that came out well after the leaks did and the community turned into a fireball, rather than writing equivocal attempts to defend the edition in spite of the things people were upset about...

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Except if you're Tartaros terminators, in which case even the stuff in the box will be left out, because internal consistency is for nerds

So Fenrisian Wolves are a Legacies unit because the box which GW currently sell just doesn't have the Horus Heresy boxart. Okayyy...

Charax wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Except if you're Tartaros terminators, in which case even the stuff in the box will be left out, because internal consistency is for nerds

Those were always 'Tartaros Terminator Siege Squads'. Didn't you realise!?

Charax wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Except if you're Tartaros terminators, in which case even the stuff in the box will be left out, because internal consistency is for nerds

You'd have a point if the entry wasn't telling us what's in the upcoming resculpt.

So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

If the presumably forthcoming Tartaros and Cataphractii (based on the teaser image) are better scaled? Probably a bigger pool than we might think.

How about you actually release the PDF since its idk, A FREE PDF? So people can stop speculating for once in the history of time remembered and see if this fixes much of anything at all. All these units were expected to be in this PDF, none of them surprise me. And there's still multiple missing special characters.

The core issue of HH 3.0 is missing wargear options. We need to see what these additional wargear options are. Like now.

Are there special characters missing from 2nd Ed though?

I know a bunch didn’t make it beyond the first edition.

 Fayric wrote:
Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

Two out of three of my Iron Warriors Tacticals were actually from my Emperor's Children army when I first started HH. Some others too, but I can't remember which ones off the top of my head. One guy basically hasn't changed his army since it was part of his 40k Blood Angels, I think all he's added in the last five years was a unit of Angels Tears.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If the presumably forthcoming Tartaros and Cataphractii (based on the teaser image) are better scaled? Probably a bigger pool than we might think.

It is given that these new termies are probably bigger and more on scale. Some few consuls that came in termie armour were like that.

But I am bit hung on bit that they may introduce new wargear options. Would kinda make sense that Tartaros would then gain some unique weapon options to "replace" power fists and give more difference with Catachrapti variant.

 Fayric wrote:
So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

I've still got the 3 (in poor repair now) Tyranid Warriors from when I started at least 25+years ago... devourers and rending claws. Technically those are still 100% Valid today (just devourers and close combat weapons).
I've got old genestealers - old carnifex and such too. The carnies have come in and out of being legal as GW plays with if they want them to have two heavy weapons or not.


Now I will be fair - of those models I'm only hanging onto the genestealers and warriors and looking to move the others on but that's got nothing to do with GW's meta and more to do with "I can build stuff way better now" than back then.
But in general yes people DO hold onto old models. Heck want to go even further people will even BUY more old models and if you want proof Old World says hi. Along with a lot of metal small time casting firms dotted around the world.

In fact the vast majority of games which are not GW wargames often have mono-pose single-loadout models that never age-out.

 Sotahullu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If the presumably forthcoming Tartaros and Cataphractii (based on the teaser image) are better scaled? Probably a bigger pool than we might think.

It is given that these new termies are probably bigger and more on scale. Some few consuls that came in termie armour were like that.

But I am bit hung on bit that they may introduce new wargear options. Would kinda make sense that Tartaros would then gain some unique weapon options to "replace" power fists and give more difference with Catachrapti variant.

Choice of Knuckleburst Power Fists or Stormslash Lightning Claws.

 Fayric wrote:
So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

I know this is a wild thought to some of our newer compatriots, but many of us are still playing entire games from decades ago nevermind updating armies to be "on meta". Personally I make armies based on some kind of hook that catches my attention - an idea for a conversion, a fluff blurb that pops into my head, whatever it is - which I expand in a way that feels...intentional. Then I make the army that matches that idea. Then the army is made. When I want a different experience, I make a different army, or pull out an old one that offers that experience in whatever context. The idea of just endlessly buying New Stuff for a single army and rotating things in and out based on whatever the tournament kids are spamming that month feels totally alien to how I hobby, it sounds more like the experience of a videogame to me and if I wanted that I'd just play a videogame.

Obviously great news if done right and not delegated to some random intern like last time when 5% of Legacy was broken gak that only WAACers didn't feel dirty using, and the rest was mostly worse and more expensive than baseline units and littered with editing errors.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
How about you actually release the PDF since its idk, A FREE PDF? So people can stop speculating for once in the history of time remembered and see if this fixes much of anything at all. All these units were expected to be in this PDF, none of them surprise me. And there's still multiple missing special characters.

The core issue of HH 3.0 is missing wargear options. We need to see what these additional wargear options are. Like now.

They are releasing it at the same time as the edition.

 cole1114 wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
How about you actually release the PDF since its idk, A FREE PDF? So people can stop speculating for once in the history of time remembered and see if this fixes much of anything at all. All these units were expected to be in this PDF, none of them surprise me. And there's still multiple missing special characters.

The core issue of HH 3.0 is missing wargear options. We need to see what these additional wargear options are. Like now.

They are releasing it at the same time as the edition.

Yup I'm aware, but if this is meant to quell the angered masses just release it now, it costs you nothing to do so its a free pdf. Let your community actually have all the info for once so we can actually gauge what this fixes instead of being potentially gaslit.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
How about you actually release the PDF since its idk, A FREE PDF? So people can stop speculating for once in the history of time remembered and see if this fixes much of anything at all. All these units were expected to be in this PDF, none of them surprise me. And there's still multiple missing special characters.

The core issue of HH 3.0 is missing wargear options. We need to see what these additional wargear options are. Like now.

They are releasing it at the same time as the edition.

Yup I'm aware, but if this is meant to quell the angered masses just release it now, it costs you nothing to do so its a free pdf. Let your community actually have all the info for once so we can actually gauge what this fixes instead of being potentially gaslit.

The masses can't be 100% fully angry yet as the books aren't out yet.

 Overread wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
How about you actually release the PDF since its idk, A FREE PDF? So people can stop speculating for once in the history of time remembered and see if this fixes much of anything at all. All these units were expected to be in this PDF, none of them surprise me. And there's still multiple missing special characters.

The core issue of HH 3.0 is missing wargear options. We need to see what these additional wargear options are. Like now.

They are releasing it at the same time as the edition.

Yup I'm aware, but if this is meant to quell the angered masses just release it now, it costs you nothing to do so its a free pdf. Let your community actually have all the info for once so we can actually gauge what this fixes instead of being potentially gaslit.

The masses can't be 100% fully angry yet as the books aren't out yet.

How much longer must we seethe with 98% anger before we can see the actual books?

98% will have to do until the 26th

 Altruizine wrote:
Man, I never realized how awful and stupid-looking some of the stuff made for Heresy is.

Like that picture in today's article of the marines dual-wielding bolt pistols, with the one in the centre wielding something out of Powerwash Simulator... shocking to see. As bad as the t-shirt cannon fellas.

The John Woo-style looks a bit awkward, but the rest is fine. Looks like you like those Primaris guys more than I do if you think they're the same level.

 Fayric wrote:

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

Do you mean specifically for HH? Or games in general?

For HH?
Yes.
I built the bulk of my SM stuff over a 6-9 month period after HH.2 came out. The most recent additions were a pair of Contemptors back last Nov.
All together I currently have close to 5k worth of stuff & only use around 2500 pts at a time. I didn't build any of this based on any meta, just units I like. I rotate playing with stuff based mostly on daily whim.

I've also built a Knight force this past year. Based solely upon thinking that the Lancer & Castigator looked cool. Ok, so there's the core, now to add stuff to make it work....

For other (GW) games?
Some armies are fairly static, others are awash in options.
a few 40k examples:
SW - this is my oldest 40k army. It hasn't changed since 2e. Just some cosmetic bitz & then plastic drop pods in 8th (replacing my old armorcast versions). Still fighting here in 10e.
Drukarhi - I built this force in 9e. I was quite happy using only 1 Archon, 1 Venom, 9 Talos, 9 Cronos. 10e screwed that up with pts drops & limiting my Talos/Cronos to only 2 per squad. So I had to add almost 1k pts
Imperial Guard & Necrons - two of my favorite forces in all of 40k. There's almost no combo I can't field. What I bring to a game can vary wildly.

I do not build concerning the meta. I build & field armies that please me.

 YodhrinsForge wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

I know this is a wild thought to some of our newer compatriots, but many of us are still playing entire games from decades ago nevermind updating armies to be "on meta". Personally I make armies based on some kind of hook that catches my attention - an idea for a conversion, a fluff blurb that pops into my head, whatever it is - which I expand in a way that feels...intentional. Then I make the army that matches that idea. Then the army is made. When I want a different experience, I make a different army, or pull out an old one that offers that experience in whatever context. The idea of just endlessly buying New Stuff for a single army and rotating things in and out based on whatever the tournament kids are spamming that month feels totally alien to how I hobby, it sounds more like the experience of a videogame to me and if I wanted that I'd just play a videogame.

Sounds great. Personally I make use of both old and new stuff. I really like new sculpts, and enjoy building and painting more than playing games, so lots of old stuff just get put away in a box. That said, I got 30 "old" plastic MKIII that i originally had as grey hunters for 40k, and started using as Grey Stalkers when I started 30k wolves as well (also made good use of all my beloved converted heroes I had made over the years and that suddenly didnt fit in 40K) Dont plan on updating for new MK III anytime soon.
I got some really old plastic monopose high elves I would absolutely not bother to bring out, but the metal heroes, and even the metal swordmasters is still good to go. The IoB griffon is one of my favourite models ever and even surpass my nostalgia for Eltharion.

Just had a few games of necromunda 95 rules with my original Ratskins. They got it right the first time!

 Lathe Biosas wrote:

 Overread wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

 cole1114 wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
How about you actually release the PDF since its idk, A FREE PDF? So people can stop speculating for once in the history of time remembered and see if this fixes much of anything at all. All these units were expected to be in this PDF, none of them surprise me. And there's still multiple missing special characters.

The core issue of HH 3.0 is missing wargear options. We need to see what these additional wargear options are. Like now.

They are releasing it at the same time as the edition.

Yup I'm aware, but if this is meant to quell the angered masses just release it now, it costs you nothing to do so its a free pdf. Let your community actually have all the info for once so we can actually gauge what this fixes instead of being potentially gaslit.

The masses can't be 100% fully angry yet as the books aren't out yet.

How much longer must we seethe with 98% anger before we can see the actual books?

I wouldn’t worry.

This poster hasn’t contributed to the Heresy sub-forum for many years.

One might think they’re only here to……..ferment grapes.

Well in the 3 years of HH2 I lovingly converted and painted 3000 pts, and played about 5 games of it (I play a lot of systems)

Hope to continue at about the same rate.

 Fayric wrote:
So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

...why wouldn't I? I've been painting the fethers for years, after all. I still have about 15 old metal marines of the 2nd edition era original Marks II to V

And the meta can go take a hike, I'll field what I like.

Given this:

Hopefully this article will reassure you that those Tartaros Terminators with power fists, Destroyers with jump packs and lovingly converted White Scars Champions on bikes won’t be resigned to a life on the shelf.

...is there any indication as to why Tartaros Terminators can't take powerfists, an option in their kit?

I've had it explained to me on another thread, but I still can't wrap my brain around the different marks of armour being needed for your armies.... unless you are basing your forces around a single battle/campaign.

 Alpharius wrote:
Given this:

Hopefully this article will reassure you that those Tartaros Terminators with power fists, Destroyers with jump packs and lovingly converted White Scars Champions on bikes won’t be resigned to a life on the shelf.

...is there any indication as to why Tartaros Terminators can't take powerfists, an option in their kit?

They'll get a new kit. Which doesn't contain fists. Because churn.

 Lathe Biosas wrote:
Wonder if the Dominus will magically get remembered as part of the Knight arsenal for 30k.


"Hey, Magos Johnny, why aren't we using all the Knights we've had on Mars to go fight Horus and his Dark Mechanicum cronies?"

"Whoops, they were all destroyed offscreen and it will take us a long time to make new ones."

To be fair, the whole Heresy only took about a decade...

What the is an Atrementar "Flay Clade"? And does "additional Legion armoury options" mean that Legion specific units get back lost options like lightning claws for Night Raptors (which make sense for the unit, unlike Thunderhammers, which don't)?

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Given this:

Hopefully this article will reassure you that those Tartaros Terminators with power fists, Destroyers with jump packs and lovingly converted White Scars Champions on bikes won’t be resigned to a life on the shelf.

...is there any indication as to why Tartaros Terminators can't take powerfists, an option in their kit?

They'll get a new kit. Which doesn't contain fists. Because churn.

I don't want to say it "makes sense" but...OK, I guess?

Weird that Tartaros won't be able to take power fists in the near future of the distant past set in the far future though.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
What the is an Atrementar "Flay Clade"? And does "additional Legion armoury options" mean that Legion specific units get back lost options like lightning claws for Night Raptors (which make sense for the unit, unlike Thunderhammers, which don't)?

The Atrementar run a special shop where Night Lords can spend their quarters on games of chance revolving around skinning captives.

You know, the Flaycade

 ScarletRose wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
What the is an Atrementar "Flay Clade"? And does "additional Legion armoury options" mean that Legion specific units get back lost options like lightning claws for Night Raptors (which make sense for the unit, unlike Thunderhammers, which don't)?

The Atrementar run a special shop where Night Lords can spend their quarters on games of chance revolving around skinning captives.

You know, the Flaycade

Okay, that's good.

I hope they're paying whoever is frantically writing all these missing units into the pdf as we speak well.

Well at least I can rest easy knowing my Imperial Fist tartaros with Power Fists and Storm Shields are fine.

GW wrote:The army lists in the Liber books are a reflection of the current range of miniatures. They are written to reflect the contents of boxed units, so new players can build armies without feeling the need to buy multiple kits just to make one unit. The boxes themselves are designed to represent the most typical wargear loadouts those units would have.

Aren't GW also worried that new players will pick up a Tartaros Terminator Box, arm them with the included power fists and then quit the entire hobby once they find out that's not a legal (Liber Only) option?!?

I feel like GW's not being entirely honest with us about the wherefores and whys on this whole thing...

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I hope they're paying whoever is frantically writing all these missing units into the pdf as we speak well.

I'd bet your paycheck that the work was done a while ago.

 Alpharius wrote:

GW wrote:The army lists in the Liber books are a reflection of the current range of miniatures. They are written to reflect the contents of boxed units, so new players can build armies without feeling the need to buy multiple kits just to make one unit. The boxes themselves are designed to represent the most typical wargear loadouts those units would have.

Aren't GW also worried that new players will pick up a Tartaros Terminator Box, arm them with the included power fists and then quit the entire hobby once they find out that's not a legal (Liber Only) option?!?

I feel like GW's not being entirely honest with us about the wherefores and whys on this whole thing...

I'm not convinced they even know what is even happening themselves. A lot of this edition feels like throwing darts at a rotating board and just rolling with the results.

"Speed the game up by reducing the turns by two!" then adds 6 pages of challenge rules and probably over a hundred Gambits. I've watched multiple battle-reports with focus roll addition and it looks like the dumbest added mechanic I've seen in years from GW.

"Make units more lethal with multiple damage weapons!" then changes terrain so you can't be targeted in medium or heavy cover.

"Limit options on characters for easier army building!" then splits the Centurion into 12+ separate profiles with different stats.

ccs wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I hope they're paying whoever is frantically writing all these missing units into the pdf as we speak well.

I'd bet your paycheck that the work was done a while ago.

I'm betting that it was done by an intern. As usual.

ccs wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I hope they're paying whoever is frantically writing all these missing units into the pdf as we speak well.

I'd bet your paycheck that the work was done a while ago.

Well obviously most of it was written already. But you really believe they came up "tartaros siege squad" and "veteran breacher squad" prior to all this happening? I highly doubt it.

 Alpharius wrote:
I feel like GW's not being entirely honest with us about the wherefores and whys on this whole thing...

If you accept that this pdf (or something a lot like it) was always part of the release of 3rd Edition, then GW haven't been dishonest, just (deliberately) vague. I think their roll-out strategy (designed to build up hype) was completely upended by the leaks. It seems rather naive of them to think that they can keep stuff secret while they gradually reveal what they are releasing. I think that the explanation that appeared on Warcom yesterday should have been provided right at the beginning. That would have been better than vague waffle about units appearing in journals.

As for being coy about what will be in new kits, I assume that they want to keep 3-D printers guessing for as long as possible. I'm not sure it really achieves anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 YodhrinsForge wrote:
You'd think they'd have had their tame influencers mention the fact in their embargoed previews that came out well after the leaks did and the community turned into a fireball, rather than writing equivocal attempts to defend the edition in spite of the things people were upset about...

This is a point that bothered me too. Judging from the concerns that were being expressed by Heresy channels like SN (who I don't think can fairly be described as "tame influencers") about units and options that had been dropped, it does not look as though they were given the pdf.

Maybe the new Preview Show was going to explain everything, bit the leaks upended their plans...

Just a hypothesis.

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I hope they're paying whoever is frantically writing all these missing units into the pdf as we speak well.

I'd bet your paycheck that the work was done a while ago.

Well obviously most of it was written already. But you really believe they came up "tartaros siege squad" and "veteran breacher squad" prior to all this happening? I highly doubt it.

Yes, I do.

 Snord wrote:


As for being coy about what will be in new kits, I assume that they want to keep 3-D printers guessing for as long as possible. I'm not sure it really achieves anything.

That smacks of them not knowing the "competition". 3d sculptors have most likely ALREADY made "analogs" of all pre-existing weaponry.
Which then forces GW into trying to come up with new stuff and "hope" that the 3d crowd HAVE NOT hedged their bets. While simultaneously giving lore reasons for (x) not being seen or being rare.

Which leads into another benefit for the 3d guys...they are EXPONENTIALLY more agile in the production(made at customer location) and distribution(as already stated) of the ad-hoc designs.

With a 2 week pre-order window, 3D sculpturs have copies of the new models out before they are officially released
not telling people in advance makes no real difference here

but "resin bits" market is also just a fraction of the hobby as there are still enough people who either don't want or don't care about anything but plastic
this only goes for veterans who aren't GWs target group anyway

the one reason GW has given for being coy would still be the same, they don't want people to wait for a new kit but to buy now, so giving away too many details would make people wait which they don't want

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Midnightdeathblade wrote:
I hope they're paying whoever is frantically writing all these missing units into the pdf as we speak well.

I'd bet your paycheck that the work was done a while ago.

I'm betting that it was done by an intern. As usual.

We don't really have interns in the UK, I know youre joking, just a chance to state that for people's knowledge!

 kodos wrote:

the one reason GW has given for being coy would still be the same, they don't want people to wait for a new kit but to buy now, so giving away too many details would make people wait which they don't want

Sure, but in reality as soon there is a hint that a kit is going to be replaced, a lot of people are going to stop buying it. I can't prove it, but I bet sales of the plastic Cataphractii went down as soon as the teaser image of the (supposed) new one went up. So the secretiveness still doesn't really seem to help. It may ultimately just be about generating hype by creating suspense.

PDF announcement today:

They should have released the PDF article right when stuff started blowing up. Seriously, if you see fire, you don't wait three days to call the fire department. They just sucked all the good feelings out of their own release, and I know it's cost sales. How much sales? Dunno, but at several of my local stores, I've heard them complaining about people canceling their pre-orders so I know it is happening.

I also wonder how much bigger the PDF is now because of all the anger? How much deliberation was made to include things in the PDF to put out fires, and how much are they going to sell back to us as DLC down the line in the TACTICA books.

Lastly, if they didn't tell the influencers about what was in the PDF, then they really set them up take all the heat for GW and that's a massive jerk move.

assuming the list of units going into the pdf and/or said pdf already existed when stuff started blowing up (like you call the fire department but there is none and it takes time to build one)

and currently it looks really like that this wasn't planned before but is a reaction to the community outcry

 BorderCountess wrote:

To be fair, the whole Heresy only took about a decade...

It did? That makes it even more absurd that they invented several armour marks and bunch of other stuff during that era and then basically nothing for the next ten millennia!

Dudeface wrote:
We don't really have interns in the UK, I know youre joking, just a chance to state that for people's knowledge!

but there are some kind of trainee/apprentice jobs where you get paid while you learn?
I recall what we call the Praktika or Ferialpraktika is "Placement" in the UK, a job you need to take as part of your study program (and Praktikant would be what we would use for that joke)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

To be fair, the whole Heresy only took about a decade...

It did? That makes it even more absurd that they invented several armour marks and bunch of other stuff during that era and then basically nothing for the next ten millennia!

that is part of the grimdark flair of 40k
200 year crusade to conquer the galaxy, recovering and developing technology to build up the great Empire of Man, 10 years civil war that put everything into ruins with most of the technology being lost
followed by 10.000 years of post-apocylptic stagnation and decline where the surviors just try to keep going with what they have while other big threats are building up to give humanity the final blow

and the absurdity of this the main flair that makes 40k so different to any other SciFi setting

 Crimson wrote:

 BorderCountess wrote:

To be fair, the whole Heresy only took about a decade...

It did? That makes it even more absurd that they invented several armour marks and bunch of other stuff during that era and then basically nothing for the next ten millennia!

Everything went pearshaped after the big E's thronement. The Imperial Cult set in, AdMech's knowledge hoarding intensified.. Is it any wonder nothing susbtantial happened after the primus motors of the IoM were cut down, replaced by pointless bureaucracy and superstition?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm betting that it was done by an intern. As usual.

Another possibility...

Management told the design team to cut back on a whole swathe of units, which they might have readily agreed to because the Libers were rocking in at 350-odd pages already and would otherwise have been truly titanic/unrealistic.

However, the design team cares about the Heresy and its players, and knew right from the get-go that they had to do something for those expunged units. So, they put together this free PDF, and it is entirely possible that this was done on their own time. They take steps to ensure all these units would stay 'current' and 'legal' in the game, because they know 40k players view legacy units as the kiss of death.

They get all this prepped to be released alongside the Libers on week one. All bases are covered. They feel pretty good about themselves.

Then something gets leaked, people lose their heads a little, and begin suggesting this PDF is being rush-written in barely a week, by interns nonetheless.

Design team possibly feeling a little less good about themselves.

I have no direct insider knowledge on this, but knowing what I do, this is entirely possible.

Given that this was all started by a presumably (by GW) unintended leak, reactions have been... less than awesome. Especially as we knew this PDF was coming really quite some time ago.

Not picking on you, my good Gadzilla. More a community thing.

Possible, but than the question would be, why have they waited another week to get the news about said pdf out?

because the reviews of the books were planned for the pre-order day
so without the leaks this would have happened as well, just some days later

so in the best case this was poor planning and the people there didn't think the community would react that way to units and options being cut

Could be

ToW legacy factions are certainly better than management would want them to be

Then again, HH 2.0 legacies were trash

 kodos wrote:
Possible, but than the question would be, why have they waited another week to get the news about said pdf out?

Honestly? Because it had already been announced. We knew there would be legacy PDF almost from the start of the run-up to release, it really does seem like some people forgot this. We didn't know the contents of it, of course, but GW had already said a bunch of 'missing' units would be in there.

Multi-million pound companies turn like an oil tanker. They had a plan for the run-up to launch, so stick with the plan. Yesterday's post was obviously a reaction to the turmoil, but in my mind's eye I can see some people at GW scratching their heads wondering why this blew up when they already had the fix ready to go, and had announced it.

As for the influencers... I have no idea, mate No idea what was happening with those with ties to GW (and we may never really know). As for the 'independent' influencers... well, there might well have been a degree of controversy baiting going on (though I was happy to see Discourse had not dived into it).

Don't get me wrong, I am no GW apologist. I just prefer to enjoy my hobby than get mad about it (Honest Wargamer had a good take on this).

There's going to be a significant lead-time on physical Tactica Journals going from print to distribution, presumably several months. Given the number of Journals needed, I assume we are going to see some overlap where the first few books will already be written but will arrive after the PDF is published.
Very interested to see if any units appear in both publications because that would be a smoking gun that planned paid content was suddenly rushed forward as a response to the backlash.

Mozzamanx wrote:

Very interested to see if any units appear in both publications because that would be a smoking gun that planned paid content was suddenly rushed forward as a response to the backlash.

Or...

They put placeholders for such units in the PDF, fully intending to go back at a later date and go into more detail (maybe because want they want to explore is a bit too much for the PDF, maybe - just maybe - because a plastic release is coming which will provide more options).

Just speculation, obviously.

Bits & Kits is offering individual items from the Saturnine box set. Alas, all the Saturnine Praetors sold out in a hot second, missed that one.. Everything else seems to still be available, so bought 10 MKII for my kitbashing box. Thinking there might be some cool bashing options with my MKIII command Squad models, perhaps the modern MKII & MKIII could be used interchangeably somehow..

They also have the rulebook on offer, for much cheaper than what GW is asking..

MongooseMatt wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:

Very interested to see if any units appear in both publications because that would be a smoking gun that planned paid content was suddenly rushed forward as a response to the backlash.

Or...

They put placeholders for such units in the PDF, fully intending to go back at a later date and go into more detail (maybe because want they want to explore is a bit too much for the PDF, maybe - just maybe - because a plastic release is coming which will provide more options).

Just speculation, obviously.

Not too hard to speculate on that as they literally said that's a possibility in the Legacy article....

Nor would it be the 1st time such a move was made (well, maybe for 30k) - over in 40k they pulled my named Navigator out of Legends & made him a generic in the Agents of the Imperium Codex.
Even re-used his model.

Can we take the off topic chatter elsewhere please.

 Snord wrote:

 kodos wrote:

the one reason GW has given for being coy would still be the same, they don't want people to wait for a new kit but to buy now, so giving away too many details would make people wait which they don't want

Sure, but in reality as soon there is a hint that a kit is going to be replaced, a lot of people are going to stop buying it. I can't prove it, but I bet sales of the plastic Cataphractii went down as soon as the teaser image of the (supposed) new one went up. So the secretiveness still doesn't really seem to help. It may ultimately just be about generating hype by creating suspense.

Isn't all this stuff out of stock anyway?

MongooseMatt wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Possible, but than the question would be, why have they waited another week to get the news about said pdf out?

Honestly? Because it had already been announced. We knew there would be legacy PDF almost from the start of the run-up to release, it really does seem like some people forgot this. We didn't know the contents of it, of course, but GW had already said a bunch of 'missing' units would be in there.

we knew there would be something but not what

so why did no one who got a review copy knew that the missing units will be there, why didn't GW announce that the missing units will be there on the pre-order day
why did they feel the need to write "we heard your complains" into the preview of something that was always planned that way?

2 possibilities, the guy who is responsible for the marketing just lost his job, or it wasn't planned to have the units in there

 kodos wrote:

MongooseMatt wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Possible, but than the question would be, why have they waited another week to get the news about said pdf out?

Honestly? Because it had already been announced. We knew there would be legacy PDF almost from the start of the run-up to release, it really does seem like some people forgot this. We didn't know the contents of it, of course, but GW had already said a bunch of 'missing' units would be in there.

we knew there would be something but not what

so why did no one who got a review copy knew that the missing units will be there, why didn't GW announce that the missing units will be there on the pre-order day
why did they feel the need to write "we heard your complains" into the preview of something that was always planned that way?

2 possibilities, the guy who is responsible for the marketing just lost his job, or it wasn't planned to have the units in there

We are not supposed to have read the actual rules yet, and it would have been weird to release the legacy pdf before the actual rules. Now they did anyway, in the same way they decide to do a community article about new models beeing leaked.

As for the influencers, obviously GW want them to use the new rules and the playstyle they made up. The influencers are marketing, and they want them to market the actual product for sure. Would have been more strange to see them having legacy rules in their commercials for the new rules.

Im not sure they had the legacy rules as large as they now released, but to me the reasoning makes some sense from a GW perspective.

 kodos wrote:

so why did no one who got a review copy knew that the missing units will be there, why didn't GW announce that the missing units will be there on the pre-order day

The simple answer for that is that GW (and especially SDS) love doing all their homework at the last minute. There's been so many cases of their digital rules missing expected release dates that it doesn't shock me influencers didn't get an early copy.

Also releasing the files rather than alongside the printed liber reviews keeps people talking about HH for longer.

 Fayric wrote:

We are not supposed to have read the actual rules yet, and it would have been weird to release the legacy pdf before the actual rules.

we are supposed to have reviews now and the usual "somebody reading the full book off youtube" by now
the information we are supposed to have isn't any different, just that they waited a week to clear up the mess that would have happened anyway.
like the outrage would have been even bigger if the reviews like goonhammer just mentioned it in the sidenote while people being reading off screentshots from youtube to come to the conclusion that a lot of stuff is missing

New Cataphractii design:

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

I'm betting that it was done by an intern. As usual.

Another possibility...

Management told the design team to cut back on a whole swathe of units, which they might have readily agreed to because the Libers were rocking in at 350-odd pages already and would otherwise have been truly titanic/unrealistic.

However, the design team cares about the Heresy and its players, and knew right from the get-go that they had to do something for those expunged units. So, they put together this free PDF, and it is entirely possible that this was done on their own time. They take steps to ensure all these units would stay 'current' and 'legal' in the game, because they know 40k players view legacy units as the kiss of death.

They get all this prepped to be released alongside the Libers on week one. All bases are covered. They feel pretty good about themselves.

Then something gets leaked, people lose their heads a little, and begin suggesting this PDF is being rush-written in barely a week, by interns nonetheless.

Design team possibly feeling a little less good about themselves.

I have no direct insider knowledge on this, but knowing what I do, this is entirely possible.

Given that this was all started by a presumably (by GW) unintended leak, reactions have been... less than awesome. Especially as we knew this PDF was coming really quite some time ago.

Not picking on you, my good Gadzilla. More a community thing.

This is a quite well thought out reply to a post that was, in all honesty, just a joke (Dudeface got it right).

You may be correct. But the proof will be in the content of the PDF. It seems likely that cut options will be restored to "core" units, but what about Legion specific units? That will be the deciding factor in whether or not your theory is correct. We'll just have to wait and see, as much as I hate to use that expression.