Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 zedmeister wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

I have a feeling this was cobbled together and pushed out ASAP. As for myself, I’ve cancelled my admittedly small pre order. Think I’ll wait for the dust to settle and to see how things are before I look to pick anything up. I can always grab things 2nd hand if I fancy a few MkIIs

This was announced ages ago, including that everything in it would be legal in all formats...

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This edition will continually expand the miniatures range in plastic – including some units in this Legacy list, which will return with new designs and possibly new weapon options and wargear.

Wonder what they’ll be.

I imagine Destroyers and the Solar Aux vehicles are a likely place for them to start, especially the Bane Blade chassis (I can dream, right?).

Mildly amused that the Sanguinary Guard are going back to not having rules again, although the Ofanim reflect them well enough that I'm not too bothered.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

Damn, they really wrote out that massive list of stuff they dropped and it didn't click for them just how messed up that is? Likem damn! That list goes on and on for over a page!

I hope whoever made this idiotic decision is currently being excoriated for it.

Consequences for bad game design and anti custommer practices in gw? Are you well friend?

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of
On the other hand for newbies it makes the game much more accessible. No having to work out IF other parts are in other kits; no having to buy two or three kits to build one model; no having to convert to get all the options.

Except that's literally baked into the HH model design, unless you think they're going to stop selling the upgrade sets. Honestly, the idea that they can't conceive of someone use their own plastic melee weapons set to convert a HQ model (be it plastic or resin) is beyond stupid.

ccs wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?
Or would you like me to wait a few more days?

GW would allow people to seethe a few days, seems only fair.

Okay, standing back from it all a bit, I’m prepared to accept that this pdf was probably always going to look something like this, and it’s on this basis that GW assured everyone that their existing armies would still remain valid. They may have intended to put it out when the libers became available, but got caught out by the libers being leaked early (just as their initial marketing campaign was sabotaged by those leaked photos of the box). It’s still a messy approach, and the fact that they are clearly going to dick around with unit options etc as new kits are released just emphasises how quickly this edition is going to get modified then superseded. It still feels like a work-in-progress and not a finished game.

Dudeface wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?
Or would you like me to wait a few more days?

GW would allow people to seethe a few days, seems only fair.

Hmm. I guess I could wait until I've read what the "additional wargear options" contain.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

This edition will continually expand the miniatures range in plastic – including some units in this Legacy list, which will return with new designs and possibly new weapon options and wargear.

Wonder what they’ll be.

It's a pretty safe bet that they will be releasing an updated Tartaros kit without Power Fists

Wonder if the Dominus will magically get remembered as part of the Knight arsenal for 30k.


"Hey, Magos Johnny, why aren't we using all the Knights we've had on Mars to go fight Horus and his Dark Mechanicum cronies?"

"Whoops, they were all destroyed offscreen and it will take us a long time to make new ones."

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Which GW has been hard rolling out. It's why even things like twin-linked-devourer winged tyrants are out despite being super popular for years because the HT kit doesn't have enough devourers to make the model. Even though you'd have ample spares from just buying one carnifex kit.

That's the rub though, assuming the leaked Libers weren't inaccurate for some reason; then we already know this reasoning is categorically bullgak.
There are units that have options in their box but lost them like Tartaros not having chain/power fists, and multiple Legion specialists have data sheets where some of their remaining options aren't in the kit or (in the case of AL Lernaeans) even gained new options in the Liber.

 Overread wrote:
On the one hand the hyper-extreme angle of it is very unfriendly to gamers; esp as even when GW clearly plans to bring back old options with updated models; those updates could take years to appear on the market.

On the other hand for newbies it makes the game much more accessible. No having to work out IF other parts are in other kits; no having to buy two or three kits to build one model; no having to convert to get all the options.

I've seen other people say this (it's essentially what GW is trying to claim as well), but that doesn't really make sense at all.
Ignoring the exceptions I mentioned above for a moment, GW just said in this community post that nearly all missing options will be in the Legacy PDF and...
"we fully intend for players with existing armies to use these Legacy units in their games, including in competitive play. These are no less official than those units with rules in the Liber books.".

That means that on day 1 an enormous list of options not in the kit and not written in the Liber are in fact legal in every gameplay format at launch, by GW's decree, found only in a supplementary pdf downloadable on WarCom.

So now new players, who are supposed to be the beneficiaries of this change, can be legally gotcha'd the first time they play a game and find out half the Liber is basically not printed in the book.
Plus now anytime someone wants to plan an army project or write a list, they have to cross reference between the Liber and the pdf to see what options are actually available.
They have effectively made it more confusing and deceptive than if they just printed all the options in the Liber to begin with...

And the real question is why...
Was this to save on page space?
To try any dissuade people from building these options because they'll be removed in HH4.0?
Are all of these options going to be superseded by Journal Tacticas at some point?

It's just baffling to think that GW intended this as the end result rather than as some sort of reaction to community backlash.

Edit - added my little final though, adjusted length and clarity

 Overread wrote:
On the other hand for newbies it makes the game much more accessible. No having to work out IF other parts are in other kits; no having to buy two or three kits to build one model; no having to convert to get all the options.

Does it make a material difference, though? If a new player already has to wade through the rulebook, the army book, and learn all the units, is it really such a barrier to entry if some of the unit options aren't in the box? I feel like the executives think it is, but I am skeptical about that on a personal level.

ccs wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

Do I get to say "I told you so" now?
Or would you like me to wait a few more days?

GW would allow people to seethe a few days, seems only fair.

Hmm. I guess I could wait until I've read what the "additional wargear options" contain.

Let's be frank, I can count on my thumbs the number of times "wait and see" actually paid off with GW, so you were placing the long bet here really from most peoples perspective.

I must agree with the poster above who said this will just make everything more confusing for new players, not less. Sure, now they dont need to 3D print bitz et al.. UNTIL they face their first opponent who has 90% legacies based army and ROFLstomps their cookie cutter loadout units

GW's immutable rules such as "all options must come in the kit", NMNR and "No using kits from other GW games allowed!" these days are really making them look incompetent.

Proof of the pudding will be in the eating, it's the "additional wargear options" part that is the kicker. No I don't think GW confirming what we already knew (that a legacy document is coming and will contain rules for some of the removed units) is much of a "told you so" moment

 tauist wrote:

GW's immutable rules such as "all options must come in the kit", NMNR and "No using kits from other GW games allowed!" these days are really making them look incompetent.

In theory at least a hard line now means that its done. No long slow change like 40K had where you were kind of unsure how strict they were going to be or not.

Also now that it's done things can only improve thereafter.

Man, I never realized how awful and stupid-looking some of the stuff made for Heresy is.

Like that picture in today's article of the marines dual-wielding bolt pistols, with the one in the centre wielding something out of Powerwash Simulator... shocking to see. As bad as the t-shirt cannon fellas.

 cole1114 wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:

 Snrub wrote:
Legacies article just dropped.

We’ve also noticed that some of you are concerned that certain units in your existing armies might not be usable in the new edition

Oh you noticed did you? You picked up on that? Did we actually all complain loud enough that you paid attention to us for a few minutes.

I have a feeling this was cobbled together and pushed out ASAP. As for myself, I’ve cancelled my admittedly small pre order. Think I’ll wait for the dust to settle and to see how things are before I look to pick anything up. I can always grab things 2nd hand if I fancy a few MkIIs

This was announced ages ago, including that everything in it would be legal in all formats...

You'd think they'd have had their tame influencers mention the fact in their embargoed previews that came out well after the leaks did and the community turned into a fireball, rather than writing equivocal attempts to defend the edition in spite of the things people were upset about...

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Except if you're Tartaros terminators, in which case even the stuff in the box will be left out, because internal consistency is for nerds

So Fenrisian Wolves are a Legacies unit because the box which GW currently sell just doesn't have the Horus Heresy boxart. Okayyy...

Charax wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Except if you're Tartaros terminators, in which case even the stuff in the box will be left out, because internal consistency is for nerds

Those were always 'Tartaros Terminator Siege Squads'. Didn't you realise!?

Charax wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Oh it likely clicked for them - however they also hit an iron wall of management policy change of "what's in the rules MUST be in the box and ONLY in that specific box"

Except if you're Tartaros terminators, in which case even the stuff in the box will be left out, because internal consistency is for nerds

You'd have a point if the entry wasn't telling us what's in the upcoming resculpt.

So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

If the presumably forthcoming Tartaros and Cataphractii (based on the teaser image) are better scaled? Probably a bigger pool than we might think.

How about you actually release the PDF since its idk, A FREE PDF? So people can stop speculating for once in the history of time remembered and see if this fixes much of anything at all. All these units were expected to be in this PDF, none of them surprise me. And there's still multiple missing special characters.

The core issue of HH 3.0 is missing wargear options. We need to see what these additional wargear options are. Like now.

Are there special characters missing from 2nd Ed though?

I know a bunch didn’t make it beyond the first edition.

 Fayric wrote:
Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

Two out of three of my Iron Warriors Tacticals were actually from my Emperor's Children army when I first started HH. Some others too, but I can't remember which ones off the top of my head. One guy basically hasn't changed his army since it was part of his 40k Blood Angels, I think all he's added in the last five years was a unit of Angels Tears.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If the presumably forthcoming Tartaros and Cataphractii (based on the teaser image) are better scaled? Probably a bigger pool than we might think.

It is given that these new termies are probably bigger and more on scale. Some few consuls that came in termie armour were like that.

But I am bit hung on bit that they may introduce new wargear options. Would kinda make sense that Tartaros would then gain some unique weapon options to "replace" power fists and give more difference with Catachrapti variant.

 Fayric wrote:
So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

I've still got the 3 (in poor repair now) Tyranid Warriors from when I started at least 25+years ago... devourers and rending claws. Technically those are still 100% Valid today (just devourers and close combat weapons).
I've got old genestealers - old carnifex and such too. The carnies have come in and out of being legal as GW plays with if they want them to have two heavy weapons or not.


Now I will be fair - of those models I'm only hanging onto the genestealers and warriors and looking to move the others on but that's got nothing to do with GW's meta and more to do with "I can build stuff way better now" than back then.
But in general yes people DO hold onto old models. Heck want to go even further people will even BUY more old models and if you want proof Old World says hi. Along with a lot of metal small time casting firms dotted around the world.

In fact the vast majority of games which are not GW wargames often have mono-pose single-loadout models that never age-out.

 Sotahullu wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If the presumably forthcoming Tartaros and Cataphractii (based on the teaser image) are better scaled? Probably a bigger pool than we might think.

It is given that these new termies are probably bigger and more on scale. Some few consuls that came in termie armour were like that.

But I am bit hung on bit that they may introduce new wargear options. Would kinda make sense that Tartaros would then gain some unique weapon options to "replace" power fists and give more difference with Catachrapti variant.

Choice of Knuckleburst Power Fists or Stormslash Lightning Claws.

 Fayric wrote:
So how many people would have updated their tartaros for new tartaros anyway, just like you updated your armies with new MKVI armour at HH2, and was about to get new MKII and saturnine for HH3.

Honest question, do many of you have a core army you keep playing over the years without updating the models or circulate in new units that match the meta?

I know this is a wild thought to some of our newer compatriots, but many of us are still playing entire games from decades ago nevermind updating armies to be "on meta". Personally I make armies based on some kind of hook that catches my attention - an idea for a conversion, a fluff blurb that pops into my head, whatever it is - which I expand in a way that feels...intentional. Then I make the army that matches that idea. Then the army is made. When I want a different experience, I make a different army, or pull out an old one that offers that experience in whatever context. The idea of just endlessly buying New Stuff for a single army and rotating things in and out based on whatever the tournament kids are spamming that month feels totally alien to how I hobby, it sounds more like the experience of a videogame to me and if I wanted that I'd just play a videogame.

Obviously great news if done right and not delegated to some random intern like last time when 5% of Legacy was broken gak that only WAACers didn't feel dirty using, and the rest was mostly worse and more expensive than baseline units and littered with editing errors.