Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...

Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.

Well, for me part of the reason...

lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.

... is summed up right here. The other part...

Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules

... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

 Gert wrote:
Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.

I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.

Yes, that might be something they have to find a way to solve for this, but the complaint seems to be about the idea of demoigrpy knights in general rather than a specific detail on them.

solving it by changing the story/background is the most likely option

Mozzamanx wrote:
Anything with a reference to Karl Franz, who won't be born for a few centuries yet. Admittedly this didn't stop them from using the models in AoS...

as if there is anyone left at studio who knows what the KF on the models means /s

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. That means that every overt reference to Sigmar, a comet, twin-tailed imagery or hammer icon is suddenly extremely conspicuous for 2 of the 3(+) Empire factions in TOW.
I think you'd struggle to find an Empire model that didn't have at least one of those.

Yes, that might be something they have to find a way to solve for this, but the complaint seems to be about the idea of demoigrpy knights in general rather than a specific detail on them.

That assumes that the whole spiel about the Imperial Civil War being the focal point and the Empire being where much of the action happens is still their current design brief, and not just something they marketed in the early concept stage that has fallen to the wayside by now. Since the early articles, we have seen almost nothing relating to the civil war, and much more for Bretonnians and Khemri, the focus might have shifted or the Imperium stuff might have been relegated to later releases. Who knows what happens with the Demigryph riders when they get around to it.

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...

Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.

Well, for me part of the reason...

lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.

... is summed up right here. The other part...

Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules

... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

Well...

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.

I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.

... this cat already covered it.

So basically all the Empire State Troops who got retired will be re-packaged or re-boxed, marked up 30% and made available on Old World launch.

Reboxed yes but if TOW goes the HH route then they might get put in larger unit boxes at a discount on the previous price. Would be the only way I'd play Empire in TOW.

 Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
Demigryph Knights are being replaced? If that means they, and other 8th Ed. OP units, are headed for TOW, then my optimism is shrinking drastically...

Why would you think they aren't part of it? It's not like their existence lore-wise is something that only happened during the end-times.

Well, for me part of the reason...

lord_blackfang wrote:Demigryphs surprise me, they fit AoS a loooot better than ToW.

... is summed up right here. The other part...

Grail Seeker wrote:I think it was more delusional than optimistic to think that the 8th edition Warhammer Fantasy units wouldn't be in Warhammer fantasy, especially ones like Demigryph Knights which are still in production and are super popular in the Total War games.

Aesthetically I think they fit just fine, demigryphs aren't even the most fantastical thing in the Empire range. They just need decent rules

... is that they design sensibilities as well as the overlethality of units from 8th isn't something I'd like to see back.

In what way do they not fit aesthetically? It's not as if they're some completely outlandish thing for the setting or empire.

Well...

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Yeah a bit weird but then the armour designs and riders are still very Empire themed.

I would disagree with that assessment. The Demigrphys armor plating, as well as the riders shield, fit the aesthetic of the mortal realms (moreso the stormcast eternals than the new cities of sigmar minis) to a T and feature many similar design motifs. In fact, I don't think theres any explicit "Imperial" iconography on those models except for the one shield that has the "KF" monogram (which one assumes stands for Karl Franz).

Either way, I'm hoping they stick around in TOW. They're great minis and I would love to build an Empire army around them.

... this cat already covered it.

"They fit AoS more than TOW because they fit AoS more than TOW" doesn't explain anything. The Karl Franz specific stuff is understandably an issue, but there's nothing about them having decorated armour that makes their overall design more AoS than TOW/WHFB..

If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

But if you look at the models, the 'Karl Franz' stuff is everywhere - the swords are engraved with it, the coats have 'KF' monograms, their barding has it on them, and where it's not Karl Franz it's the Sigmarite comet which is also problematic for background reasons in the specific setting of TOW. Everything taken together, the kit does not fit. And they did say that 'many' of the demissioned kits would see use in TOW, they did not promise that all of them would - imho it's just that the Demigryphs sit in a niche that's too crowded now - with the various Stormcast cavalry units on the one hand and the upcoming COS cavalry on the other, and will probably just be retired entirely.

Doesn't seem like all that bad a cut to me. Especially since we know at least some (artillery) is getting replaced.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Doesn't seem like all that bad a cut to me. Especially since we know at least some (artillery) is getting replaced.

We do? Where was that mentioned?

The article said there are new artillery pieces to come for the cities.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

I didn't say they don't fit TOW, I just said they aeathetically fit well within AoS. The two are not mutually exclusive, my post is being misconstrued.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:
If THAT is what you got from that, then there's no point in debating anymore.

I'm just asking for an explanation of what specifically about them supposedly doesn't fit TOW, because I don't see anything wrong with them myself.

They were made for WHFB in the first place with the Empire in mind. They still fit TOW, outside the Karl Franz stuff.

I didn't say they don't fit TOW, I just said they aeathetically fit well within AoS. The two are not mutually exclusive, my post is being misconstrued.

Apparently so. I got that you were saying they fit BETTER in AOS as that fantastical aesthetic is more prevalent, but I was apparently off-base.

Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

Hopefully they will do just that with all factions - the human ones in particular should be different - will also help them sell models if they actually have new models.

I was a bit worried this might not happen when they just reused the Free Company mini with fintlock pistol

Mozzamanx wrote:

The Cult of Sigmar is outright banned by the Ottlilians, and the Wolf Emperors obviously prioritise Ulric. .

Isn't it more that Ottilia 1st, 800 years before the modern period of TOW banned the cult of sigmar (nevermind that she also moved the cult of Ulric to her domain), during her reign commencing in 1360.

But the empire(s) of 2250-2300, and indeed Ottilian culture, might be very different, with who knows how many ecumenical, reformist and counterreformist developments in those eight (!) intervening centuries. (And indeed the emergence of wolf emperors and the return of the cult of Ulric to Middenheim prior to 1547 tells us some of the many many changes that may have occurred).

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

I feel like the existence of Cogforts trumps the 'tech level' of any units we've seen so far.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

I feel like the existence of Cogforts trumps the 'tech level' of any units we've seen so far.

With the possible exception of Slaanesh

 PetitionersCity wrote:

Isn't it more that Ottilia 1st, 800 years before the modern period of TOW banned the cult of sigmar (nevermind that she also moved the cult of Ulric to her domain), during her reign commencing in 1360.

But the empire(s) of 2250-2300, and indeed Ottilian culture, might be very different, with who knows how many ecumenical, reformist and counterreformist developments in those eight (!) intervening centuries. (And indeed the emergence of wolf emperors and the return of the cult of Ulric to Middenheim prior to 1547 tells us some of the many many changes that may have occurred).

Of course, it's to be expected that the setting will change a little in 800 years, but that also goes in reverse; you wouldn't expect Magnus' Empire to look much like Franz'. I'd say it would be a very strange decision to set the game in a period of division without trying to make that division visible. I suppose an equivalent would be Age of Darkness where both Loyalists and Traitors are covered in aquilas.

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

I believe the Hurricanum is explicitly a post-College invention, meaning that it shouldn't be in TOW. On the other hand the Steam Tanks are a few hundred years old and if anything, there should be more of them because they are in decline in WFB.

If the split of the Empire is made visible depends on how much GW want to invest here

But I don't expect anything but Resin parts to exchange the KF stuff

New plastic would likely also.

Obviously old models won't.

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW.* Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

As for the "Karl Franz" thing: one could easily handwave it as the name of some local nobility, it is not that unusual a name for the Empire after all.


* ... this may or may not be actually true, see a few posts down.

The casual optimist would say TOW has been put on wait for cities of sigmar to get the new range, and once the new AoS models replace the empire stuff, TOW cant be far away, right

 Darnok wrote:

 Fayric wrote:
Its actually interresting to se if they just leave the empire as in classic fantasy battle or if they actually remove stuff that should not have been there in "the old world" era.
The fact that steam tank and celestial hurricanum will still be in AoS perhaps indicate they will reduce the Empires knowledge of both mechanics and magic to a lower level than we saw in FB (that would be historically correct, but also remove a big chunk of the armys viability)

Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!

It is not impossible I might be reading too much into things.

But...

In the "The Main Factions Revealed" article on May 23rd, after the confirmation of PDF rules for the "minor" factions they also stated: "We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles." If this applies to everything from the main factions as well... good question actually. I think it can be read both ways, and I have to paddle back on my "in no uncertain terms" statement.

 Darnok wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Darnok wrote:
Keep in mind they have stated - in no uncertain terms - that every unit from 8th edition will get rules for TOW. Some things might get the "index treatment", and I guess this will include the Luminark/Hurricanum. They will still be playable though.

Have they now? Please take no offence, but i don't remember that specific wording - although it's easily possible they did say so and i just forgot among all the stuff. If you could provide a citation or source i'd greatly appreciate it!

It is not impossible I might be reading too much into things.

But...

In the "The Main Factions Revealed" article on May 23rd, after the confirmation of PDF rules for the "minor" factions they also stated: "We don’t plan to publish rules for Warhammer Age of Sigmar miniatures, except for those units that were part of the game and setting during the final edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battles." If this applies to everything from the main factions as well... good question actually. I think it can be read both ways, and I have to paddle back on my "in no uncertain terms" statement.

Thanks. At the time, i read that as 'some models currently parts of AOS will receive rules for TOW', but not as 'everything in 8th will get TOW rules', but i see how it could be read that way. I guess we'll have to wait until more information becomes available.

Mozzamanx wrote:
On the other hand the Steam Tanks are a few hundred years old and if anything, there should be more of them because they are in decline in WFB.

So they'll be a 0-12 choice instead of 0-8?

New Article on the rules: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/24/old-world-development-diary-the-more-things-change-the-more-they-stay-the-same/?utm_source=CUSTOMERS&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=GW_24th_July_Wildercorpse_ENG_&utm_content=&utm_term=

That they've gone back to play old versions of the game when working out the rules for this is a good sign, at least.

"this bit worked and was popular so thats out, and whats this about paying points for weapon upgrades, stuff that, thats complicated"

hopefully followed by the sound of a gunshot as sensible people take over

With this in mind, we set about playing lots of games.**
** It’s a tough job, but someone’s gotta do it…

Too tough for the 40k devs apparently.

But thats kinda old news? We already knew they were cribbing from previous editions of the game to develop the rules.

Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.

Who would have thought that I'd already be bored of the game before it was anywhere close to release?

Attacking with the entire front rank... sure hope they put a LOT of thought into this mechanic.

The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

Interesting that they showed off a lot of older terrain plastic pieces in the photos - return of the mighty fortress, hills, etc?

 Arbitrator wrote:

With this in mind, we set about playing lots of games.**
** It’s a tough job, but someone’s gotta do it…

Too tough for the 40k devs apparently.

setting "Ooof" to 11

Sounds like they've gone right back to 3rd edition combat resolution. If I remember it's, where instead of fleeing, the loser gets pushed back and the victor get free hacks against the loser

Vague words about stuff tell us very very little

Yeah. I’d have thought we’d be getting something more tangible by now. I like the hints about 3rd edition. I think that’s still my favourite version, crusty grognard that I am.

 zedmeister wrote:
Interesting that they showed off a lot of older terrain plastic pieces in the photos - return of the mighty fortress, hills, etc?

I can see more recent scenery returning for a time: the fortified manor house, the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls, that sort of thing.

Rihgu wrote:Attacking with the entire front rank... sure hope they put a LOT of thought into this mechanic.

The moment they decided that you can use whatever base sizes you like it was clear that anything but this solution would lead to endless arguments about modelling for advantage

Grail Seeker wrote:The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 zedmeister wrote:
Interesting that they showed off a lot of older terrain plastic pieces in the photos - return of the mighty fortress, hills, etc?

I can see more recent scenery returning for a time: the fortified manor house, the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls, that sort of thing.

Yeah, those two towers are excellent for use in Frostgrave, after some modifications of course...

Tsagualsa wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.

Yeah... for all of the 'classic WFB' talk about the Old World, this is not the direction I thought they'd go, and its a huge change in direction.


Not incredibly thrilled by a return of the 'pushing result' of combat resolution, either. That wasn't all that fun.

This feels a little out of touch with what we were told they were aiming for.

I would love to see a return of some classic scenery options, some of it was superb. I really hope they do something with Warhammer: Siege. Given the way at the start of the project they referenced total war a lot it would make sense that they did something with this.

All I'll say really is that they are making the right noises when talking about this game and I just hope they deliver.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls

Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.

This. It's amazing how well GW has mastered the art of writing a bunch of words without ever saying anything of substance. Got to meet that article quota even if you have nothing to say!

chaos0xomega wrote:
But thats kinda old news? We already knew they were cribbing from previous editions of the game to develop the rules.

Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.

there are some "news" in the details:

- No more magic phase, but spells in other phases
- There is the possibility of a retreat if you lose the combat (and do not flee), not clear if the winner must push back and may advance or may push back and must advance
- The whole rank that is in melee can attack, regardless of base contact
- Units can be as wide as the player wants them to be
- The formation of the unit is an essential part of the game.
- The changes in the rules are based on what the designers have liked and disliked about playing the game over the last few months

and depending on how you read the last part it tells us 2 things
first they really just started recently and it is not a long planned project over years but they decided on what the core rules should be in the past months
second the changes are based in the impression of the designers, not what flaws the game had in the past or balance problems with factions, and it could also mean there are people working on it that never played Warhammer before but just took an Edition and adjusted it

something else that is coming with this, depending on if the change of formation is important during the game or just during the setup, that movement trays to adjust base size won't work well.
also they did not used any trays in the promo pictures

and last, they are referring to older versions of the game with the names and underlining the RPG part, it could really mean they took more influence from 3rd (not that it is a bad thing but if people want R&F combat back, a RPG with some units on the table is not what is expected)

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.

This. It's amazing how well GW has mastered the art of writing a bunch of words without ever saying anything of substance. Got to meet that article quota even if you have nothing to say!

Yeah. Pretty sure they have no game at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

I'm good with magic just being a set of abilities though.

 triplegrim wrote:

 ThePaintingOwl wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Personally, to me the article uses a lot of words to not really tell us much in concrete terms. After the whole "10th edition 40k will be less lethal" marketing misfire, I am not inclined to trust empty marketing promises from WarCom without concrete explanations of how the rules actually work.

This. It's amazing how well GW has mastered the art of writing a bunch of words without ever saying anything of substance. Got to meet that article quota even if you have nothing to say!

Yeah. Pretty sure they have no game at all. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor%27s_New_Clothes

I'm good with magic just being a set of abilities though.

Nah, I'm sure they have a game. It would be too embarrassing to fail to release a game after all the hype they've built up and too easy to shovel out some quarter-assed update of the last WHFB edition, followed shortly after by quietly dropping it like they've done with other niche games. It may not be a good game but they'll print something and then use its failure to justify their decision to kill off WHFB.

Tsagualsa wrote:

Rihgu wrote:Attacking with the entire front rank... sure hope they put a LOT of thought into this mechanic.

The moment they decided that you can use whatever base sizes you like it was clear that anything but this solution would lead to endless arguments about modelling for advantage

Grail Seeker wrote:The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.

There are a lot of assumptions in this, and its not worth arguing about things neither one of us know. it could be as bad as you say, it might not be. But I can say i am definitely interested in a different take on magic in WHB.

 Rihgu wrote:
Attacking with the entire front rank... sure hope they put a LOT of thought into this mechanic.

I'd celebrate giving people a reason to go wide with their formations, but if they don't adjust the movement system in sync with this change, it's going to be a mess.

 kodos wrote:

- The changes in the rules are based on what the designers have liked and disliked about playing the game over the last few months

and depending on how you read the last part it tells us 2 things
first they really just started recently and it is not a long planned project over years but they decided on what the core rules should be in the past months
second the changes are based in the impression of the designers, not what flaws the game had in the past or balance problems with factions, and it could also mean there are people working on it that never played Warhammer before but just took an Edition and adjusted it

The article doesn't say "the last few months", it says "For several months the designers regularly assembled to play games of every edition of Warhammer Fantasy Battle".

Could have been recent, could have been a year ago. To say they just started recently is speculation at best.

if they would have done that 1-2 years ago, that very same article could have also released 1-2 years ago

it says nothing really but that "nothing" would have generated hype 1 year ago while now not so much
that we did not got it earlier were hints for rules changes would have been more important for the marketing rather than covering a computer game tells me that there was nothing to write about regarding rules back than

and I also wrote "depending on how you read it" not that it is an absolute fact

Marketing generally works on a timeline of a strategy, it is usually not a rush to release information the minute it is done.

and GW marketing generally does not tell anything until pre-order starts

so we must expect pre-orders next Saturday TOW marketing follows the general pattern

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls

Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count

 kodos wrote:
if they would have done that 1-2 years ago, that very same article could have also released 1-2 years ago

it says nothing really but that "nothing" would have generated hype 1 year ago while now not so much
that we did not got it earlier were hints for rules changes would have been more important for the marketing rather than covering a computer game tells me that there was nothing to write about regarding rules back than

and I also wrote "depending on how you read it" not that it is an absolute fact

Well. If they have just started playing the game we are looking at maybe 2025 release.

GW doesn't generally put out that long ahead information though.

we are currently in the 4th year of "not long ahead", by that metric we would look at the 2nd Edition of the game now

similar to Sisters they are doing things differently to what they to generally
game might be close, or 2 years away, one can hope but don't be disappointed

Legions Imperialis is in August and there's a new edition of AoS next summer.
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Considering they've still given nothing but absolute surface level, i find that hard to believe. Those aren't even new photos i believe.

 Gert wrote:
Legions Imperialis is in August and there's a new edition of AoS next summer.
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Some token-effort box to coincide with the 40th 'showcase miniature' for Warhammer's 40th birthday, some nostalgia bait releases before christmas, serious releases next year if it ever comes to that.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
Considering they've still given nothing but absolute surface level, i find that hard to believe. Those aren't even new photos i believe.

They are absolutely new photos. Models are on upsized bases and war machines are actually based.

So, we can conclude, if nothing else, they've at least manufactured the new cavalry bases. So that's something.

 Gert wrote:
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Well, I guess they can be vague so far in terms of the rules on intent so that they keep content for Warhammer community articles...but honestly, that's not giving me faith. When I read this article, it really gives me the feeling of them still exploring what to use for the game system. Which is not a sign of a game ready to go in a couple of months, to me.

Sarouan wrote:

 Gert wrote:
With Cities of Sigmar almost out of the way, I think it's probably coming out in Autumn this year.

Well, I guess they can be vague so far in terms of the rules on intent so that they keep content for Warhammer community articles...but honestly, that's not giving me faith. When I read this article, it really gives me the feeling of them still exploring what to use for the game system. Which is not a sign of a game ready to go in a couple of months, to me.

Current container lead time is still about 6 months, add writing, layout and the actual printing times and you're looking at 9-12 months of total lead time from the desk to a product in-store, and that's cutting it rather sharp. It practically means that either the product is finished and has been for a couple of months at least (if they want to release something this year) or it will not be coming within a year from now.

So we're getting the "It's not coming, so just play AOS" crap the same day as the WHC articles now?

Tsagualsa wrote:


If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.

There are no dice pools in 40k/AoS I'm aware of that they reference in this article.

I do agree with what most everyone has said here, lot of words for really nothing of substance. Besides the base thing not really being a super duper important issue now.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls

Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count

There were two ruined ones that could be combined to make something more intact - Witchfate Tor and Dreadstone Blight.

 nathan2004 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:


If you read between the lines it means AOS/40k-style 'magic' where the spells are just preset abilities that you can use. No dice pools and no hands of cards means that the system will probably be pretty simple, if there's a 'system' at all - at worst it's preset spells per character, with most of them limited in range and enemy wizards having an x+ 'counter' roll. Their statement that game-deciding spells will be 'rare' probably means the same. If we're lucky, there'll at least be a list of spells to roll/pick from, if we're out of luck it's twenty variations of the 'D6 mortal wounds without calling it that' fireball.

There are no dice pools in 40k/AoS I'm aware of that they reference in this article.

.

You got my meaning the wrong way around: they said that TOW won't 'focus on managing dice pools or hands of cards' (which WHFB historically used for its magic phase, old-school used Energy Cards / Winds of Magic cards, later editions used pools of power dice and dispel dice) - this, in my opinion, means that they're now aiming for a magic system that is more like in AoS or Warhammer 40k, where spells are abilities that are bound to units, and do not operate on an army-wide pool at all.

Intrigued by the push and pull thing. I used to love orchestrating line wide routs against my opponent’s units. But I can see pushy-shovey being perhaps more interesting.

Even in the old editions I was thinking that this coin toss Ld test that led to breaking and destroying entire enemy units and routing their nearby friends (or not) was too swingy* I was hoping for a more incremental thing, where units need to accumulate some morale penalty tokens or sth before they break, and until they do, they only give ground slightly. Hopefuly it's some kind of a similar solution.


*-unsurprisingly factions immune to it were the strongest in the game, edition after edition.

Cyel wrote:
Even in the old editions I was thinking that this coin toss Ld test that led to breaking and destroying entire enemy units and routing their nearby friends (or not) was too swingy* I was hoping for a more incremental thing, where units need to accumulate some morale penalty tokens or sth before they break, and until they do, they only give ground slightly. Hopefuly it's some kind of a similar solution.


*-unsurprisingly factions immune to it were the strongest in the game, edition after edition.

You are loosely describing the system in Kings of War.

Also worth noting (via his post on Facebook today) is that Rob Alderman who was (still is?) the design manager for the Middle Earth Stuff is now design manager for ToW and is behind a bunch of the tinkering being talked about in todays article (but wasn't when the core rules were set down)

so folk who've been reasonably happy with how the Middle Earth stuff has been handled/written will hopefully see similar handling for this

At the same time, the Middle Earth stuff has them dealing with someone else's IP. They have to treat that more carefully lest they risk losing it. For their own in-house stuff there's not the same level of incentive to get it right first try (or at all, in the case of some games/editions).

I still think we'll see a release for this towards the end of the year, but all their vaguebooking isn't helping things. The magic stuff sounds just like 10th magic - they're just set abilities that Wizards have and there's no chance of ever changing what spell any given Wizard has.

While the article was surprisingly light on anything of substance, it made two solid points.

First, ond most importantly, the rules seem to be at the point where things are set in stone. Meaning the whole thing could be around the corner... or still a year away. Either way, we know about as much about the TOW rules as we know about LI - and that one is confirmed for next month.

The second thing I am actually not really happy about, and that is a massive change to the magic system. Apparently this is going to be like AoS/40K are handling magic/psychic things right now. I am not a fan.

Not really of worth for discussing the game system itself, but I like the look of the armies shown. They look chonky, without going overboard (as during 8th edition). And this...



... is refreshingly small in terms of WHF army sizes of old. Basically a handful of units a side, plus some additional warmachines or monsters... and it still looks like a proper game. I am a fan.

Anyway.

At least they actually posted something during July, after announcing an article for June and then staying silent without any mention whatsoever.

Can anyone tell if those Stone Trolls are the current "Troggoths" or the old metal ones?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Can anyone tell if those Stone Trolls are the current "Troggoths" or the old metal ones?

They are the old WHF sculpts. Whether they will come back in metal or resin is to be seen.

See... that's just cutting your nose off to spite your face.

The "Rockgut Troggoths", despite their obnoxious name, are just plastic Stone Trolls. They even use the same poses, and the 'Evy Metal team painted them in much the same colours as the originals.

I would really hope that you can just use those rather than bringing back the (smaller) old sculpts.

It'd be like forbidding Goblin players from using the new Squig Riders and re-releasing the old metal ones.

I for one would be very happy to see the old Trolls return in metal. And I say this as somebody who has a chonky unit of the new plastic models. The old Stonetrolls just have a certain charme I would like to add to my collection without paying ludicrous second hand prices.

But who am I kidding? They probably end up being resin, even more expensive than the current 'bay listings - or both.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
See... that's just cutting your nose off to spite your face.
The "Rockgut Troggoths", despite their obnoxious name, are just plastic Stone Trolls. They even use the same poses, and the 'Evy Metal team painted them in much the same colours as the originals.
I would really hope that you can just use those rather than bringing back the (smaller) old sculpts.
It'd be like forbidding Goblin players from using the new Squig Riders and re-releasing the old metal ones.

you can always use what you want, but I doubt that the new models will fit the indented bases and rank up

and for now, those are all the old models, everything that was released after 8th or is incorporated into AoS is cut from TOW
there are the old 6th Edi metal Slayer, old Orc Chariots, no Night Goblins, Island of Blood Elves, old Tree Spirits, old Trolls etc.

big question here is will those be metal, resin or finecast and I am not really happy with any of those
not because metal or resin is bad, but that GW metal casting was bad by 8th (and if they just use the old moulds it won't be better) and their resin is not that good either

PS: and by the picture of the dwarf and Orc army we now can be sure that we really just start there were warhammer 8th ended, with a mix of models from different design periods that don't really mix/match together with some kits already being not good back than and one reason why it did not appeal to new players or veterans starting another army

 kodos wrote:
you can always use what you want, but I doubt that the new models will fit the indented bases and rank up

Mine are on square bases and they're fine.

 Darnok wrote:
While the article was surprisingly light on anything of substance, it made two solid points.

First, ond most importantly, the rules seem to be at the point where things are set in stone. Meaning the whole thing could be around the corner... or still a year away. Either way, we know about as much about the TOW rules as we know about LI - and that one is confirmed for next month.

The second thing I am actually not really happy about, and that is a massive change to the magic system. Apparently this is going to be like AoS/40K are handling magic/psychic things right now. I am not a fan.

Not really of worth for discussing the game system itself, but I like the look of the armies shown. They look chonky, without going overboard (as during 8th edition). And this...



... is refreshingly small in terms of WHF army sizes of old. Basically a handful of units a side, plus some additional warmachines or monsters... and it still looks like a proper game. I am a fan.

Anyway.

At least they actually posted something during July, after announcing an article for June and then staying silent without any mention whatsoever.

Small?

No, it's made to look small, the warboss on wyvern, trolls and boarboyz weren't excactly cheap with only 2 "normal infantry" units on the ork side being the squads of boys

Much the same on the imperium side, Goldhänders, demigryphs and steamtank alone would break into the 1000 pts with the HQ i rekon. With only a squad of spears and a squad of muskets. So for a 2000 pts game rough guestimate those forces are actually overly elite. FWIW weren't demigryphs and steamtanks not both rare choices aswell? AFAIK you only got 1 slot for rare at that point level if i remember correctly.

That'd be like being surprised that my Chaos warrior army is small on the field (mind it's easily at 3000pts), after seeing me put down 10 khorne chaos knights 5 chaos knights with lances and a sorcerer on manticor and then fielding 3 squads of chaos warriors and some barbarian chaff.

I get a real vaporware vibe from the way that article is written. Just saying.

How much detail do people really expect to get in these updates?

Look how vague the info is for LI's rule system is currently, and we're less than a month away from release.

one would hope from the battle image we no longer have laser guided cannons or that Wyvern isn't going to live long

unless GW do the usual battle report type play testing where they fire it at some chaff unit to try and be fluffy

allowing wider units actually is nice too, though perhaps "the entire front rank" fights is a bit much, shouldn't be more than what could contact front and maybe sides as an option (risking further flank charges maybe). given the small number of turns typically it could be better to go down the "everyone fights" route and in effect resolve the combat in one round with the loser pushed back and possible follow ups - i.e. the way many historical games do it.

regardless, guess we will see at some point

I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.

the models are probably whatever they could find on a shelf or in a box and blow the dust off

Grail Seeker wrote:
The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

This. SOunds like 40k, and from what other people who play it tell me, AOS. It's not necesserily a bad thing in itself, we'll have to see the whole rules before any judgements can be made.

leopard wrote:
the models are probably whatever they could find on a shelf or in a box and blow the dust off

And take the time to re-base.

 .Mikes. wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
The section on magic might be the most interesting part of the article.

This. SOunds like 40k, and from what other people who play it tell me, AOS. It's not necesserily a bad thing in itself, we'll have to see the whole rules before any judgements can be made.

I hope it’s more like 30k where you actually get to choose your spells/powers and there’s still some sort of test to use them without consequences. 10th edition 40K psychic anything is extremely lacklustre, basically boiling down to some things having an additional keyword that might interact with other things.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.

It's just a random flair photo, don't think too much of it - who knows when in the pipeline this was made, it might well be from before they even decided on the background setting. Also, they obviously don't give half a gak anyway, it's about selling expensified old models, they can have 'Karl Frantz' tattoed on their eyeballs for all they care. They'll just invent some lame nonsense, like great-great Grandfather Karl Franz the first and relegate the End-Times Karl to the Karl the Second or whatever.

I notice how all the heroes and wizards in the article pictures are not part of units. That might be a clue to character functions. Or not.

 Fayric wrote:
I notice how all the heroes and wizards in the article pictures are not part of units. That might be a clue to character functions. Or not.

Personally I'm erring towards 'or not'. It's typically been how they photograph character models in WH:Fantasy since as far back as I can remember for display shots like these.

yup, they want the characters to stand out so they stand alone

and as they adjusted the rules to fit what they liked about the game it might be that characters standing out and not hiding in units is a change to the rules

Mozzamanx wrote:I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.

Your preference. I'm personally wanting a ton of those 6th Ed. Orc Boys...

have already got a largish O&G force, models with no current rules in AoS and models I'd like to use again

Yeah, I'm very happy for them to resell the plastic 6th ed boys sprue (though ideally the multipart one). It's a lovely kit and will go with what I have.

I'm not sure the presence of older or multi sprue models means much more than "they were in the cabinet and easily found for photography" at this point to be honest.

It will be interesting to see to what extent obvious like for like updates to the AOS range are permitted or encouraged and which are not. I would be... amazed if they genuinely expected people to use the older Lizardmen or Night Goblin models over more modern equivalents that work just as well. I suspect GW may well be less prescriptive about this that people think.

Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

Again, I think it's very unlikely.

 Tastyfish wrote:

There were two ruined ones that could be combined to make something more intact - Witchfate Tor and Dreadstone Blight.

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about those!

I reckon they’re not showing trays because current policy is that nothing makes it into product shots that they don’t actually sell, and someone decided that resurrecting the old movement tray kit was not worth the mould time.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I reckon they’re not showing trays because current policy is that nothing makes it into product shots that they don’t actually sell, and someone decided that resurrecting the old movement tray kit was not worth the mould time.

They also usually don't show cards, dice, templates and whippy-sticks or measures in these promo shots; it's just that, a shot to promote the world's best Citadel™ miniatures, and not an accurate representation of how a typical gaming table would look like. People read too much into it.

They didn’t usually put trays under the models in fluff shots, because whilst some would be recreations for a Battle Report, none of the photos were from actual battles.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

Again, I think it's very unlikely.

I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production, but with the outlook that they're not planning on having substantial refreshes in plastic, they'll need to bring back and keep around a lot of old kits if they intend to sell functional armies. They'll need staff and dust off metal casting machines. I don't find it unlikely that GW would want a wide range of metal models around to give those guys something to do instead of paying them to sit around half the time.

It's also unclear how much of The Old World ranges makes it into physical stores and how much is reserved for GW's webstore. It's conceivable that metal units are kept around in small numbers or even just cast up for an order.

I don't expect anything to hit stores except the Launch/Core/Starter Set, if at all and the rest being either made to order or limited release with one faction at the time

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
I wonder if people are reading too much into the Warcom pictures? Aren't they just old studio armies?

I really can't imagine that, for example, the old Citadel Stone Trolls will be re-released. They are tiny when compared to modern sculpts. It would be amazing if the metal models from that era were bought back though, I can't imagine why anybody would be against it, obviously GW would keep the modern models in production too.

Again, I think it's very unlikely.

first of all, those are the old studio models with new bases, some of those already been re-based twice as they went from 20mm square to 25mm round and now to 25mm square

next point is that they explicit show old models were newer ones are available, which would mean they are not going to sell the AoS stuff with square bases but rather re-release the old metal models (otherwise there is no point in showing them at all if the other models are available with square bases as they need to have them for promo pics on the boxes)

in addition, this is the full nostalgia experience for those that like the old stuff and have enough money to pay whatever GW asks to get the old metal models back
we have seen what GW asked for the Steel Legion made to order and I expect the same here
people asked to get the nostalgia so GW let them pay for it

 KidCthulhu wrote:
Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

Noticed it and just shrugged it off as GW not selling 'Official Olde Worlde Movement Class Trays' at the moment.

This game isn’t even out yet and it’s got the feel of a neckbeardy historical game where you are going to get comments that that style of armour didn’t exist in the setting and all that just like HH has gone. Really puts me off sadly, I might not be able to resist orc boar boyz though…..

I admit the negativity on display is starting to get a bit irritating now, especially as we don't know all that much about rules, release date, etc. I'd much rather see positive discussion rather than all the doom and gloom.

I'm actually quite excited having read the article. The changes to the combat that they've mentioned sound intriguing and may potentially make combat a more tactical affair as opposed to the final editions obsession with minimizing frontage and abusing deathstar units.

The magic rules sound like they're more in line with how psychic abilities are treated in 10th edition 40K; being abilities and tricks that you pull of in various phases (movement, shooting, combat) instead of in a dedicated magic phase. How they treat casting and dispelling will determine the usefulness and how fun I think it will be; 1 spell per level per turn for example or something different. It does sound like they're trying to veer away from army destroying spells like Plague or flames of the phoenix and the tactical rock-paper-scissors that could screw people over if you didn't bring enough anit-magic along and found yourself fighting a level 4 and two level 2 wizards at 2000pts for example. Personally I'd love to see the different faction's mages and wizards focusing on different ways to buff their army based on their faction's character.

Releasing it late this year could be expensive for me, with epic in August and Tyranids in the autumn to budget for. I think next year would be safer for me

 KidCthulhu wrote:
Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

It has nothing to do with the gameplay, they often use units without movement trays when they do display pictures. It was the same with old versions of Warhammer Battle when you looked at the illustrations of games in the rulebook.

Andykp wrote:
This game isn’t even out yet and it’s got the feel of a neckbeardy historical game where you are going to get comments that that style of armour didn’t exist in the setting and all that just like HH has gone. Really puts me off sadly, I might not be able to resist orc boar boyz though…..

If you are going to have a game based around a setting with specific periods and lore - not bothering to care about it is IMO a BAD thing. Its not like Warhammer sells based on the gameplay.

They should be telling us about the period, talking about the various claimiants for the throne, dropping in the odd short story (they do them for mere campaigns in AOS) not just

"Yeah Er... here is a few old models we chucked on a table and yeah we are like writing some rules or something...ermm its gonna be great" that will do right boss?

If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

I must say reigning back psychic stuff is the first info that makes me kind of interested in the game. I never played WFB but read a lot of tactics about it and watched many battle reports (8th Edition) and what I took away from them was usually: you have these nicely lined up armies with supports, in turn 1 all the cannons kill all the monsters and in turn two all the sorcerors kill all the units. Without psykers you were screwed. When battle lines actually clash it's over pretty fast because of some artefacts or banners.
Coming from lotr this was pretty off putting for me, because there magic is more in a rare supporting role usually.

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

THEY choose to set in a specific time period which is radically different to the normal one they used....if they then can;t be bothered to make the slighest effort to use it....well FK them

 Geifer wrote:


I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,

I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I agree that setting it slightly before WFB 8E would have been a far better move because it allows WFB and AoS to exist in 2 separate timelines and mitigate some of the hostility towards the End Times.
As it is, it feels very much like we are seeing the Horus Heresy where everyone is wearing Mk7 and driving Razorbacks. I don't understand why you would try to tie 2 incompatible objectives, namely selling a historical setting AND contemporary models.

EDIT: Also in my analogy, the Traitors are still plastered in Loyalist iconography. And we've decided not to include Raven Guard, Iron Hands, Salamanders, Space Wolves or Thousand Sons on the basis that they are mangled before the setting really gets going and they probably won't contribute much in the grand scheme of things...

Mozzamanx wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If you want historical accuracy to supersede that you are going to end up disappointed.

Plus its not that hard to remove "KS" from the models GW sells.

So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I agree that setting it slightly before WFB 8E would have been a far better move because it allows WFB and AoS to exist in 2 separate timelines and mitigate some of the hostility towards the End Times.
As it is, it feels very much like we are seeing the Horus Heresy where everyone is wearing Mk7 and driving Razorbacks. I don't understand why you would try to tie 2 incompatible objectives, namely selling a historical setting AND contemporary models.

I think its a mixture of lack of internal communication, laziness and likely moving objectives - as you say it just seems stupid to Choose to focuss on a different historical period but then do not use it and just use the old models from a different period....

Mozzamanx wrote:
I have concerns. In no particular order:

- Why does the Empire army have a War Altar, given that it's built after the Great War? Its anachronistic to the setting. The model has the words 'EMPEROR KARL FRANZ' emblazoned on the side.
- Demigryph Knights obviously there, again rehashing the previous comments about Sigmarite imagery. I also see the Champion wielding the sword option, which again has 'Karl Franz' printed on it.
- Old Stone Trolls are extremely surprising given that I took the Rockgut Troggoths to be a spiritual successor. That immediately opens the door to maintaining old WFB variants of Chaos Warriors, Saurus, Undead etc., which is potentially a significant amount of baggage.
- The High Elves have models from the IoB, which is strange because they share sprues with the Skaven half who we've just been told aren't part of the narrative. Is IoB coming back anyway, or have the sculpts been recut somehow?
- Those Orc Boys were old in 8E and personally, were a major contributor to me not owning any Orc Boys in 8E. Now they're being resold in an environment where I can get Avatars of War alternatives. A complete non-starter for me and I was already building an Orc army. I suspect that anyone holding a merchant license is about to make an absolute killing if the competition is 6E-era plastics at 2023 prices.
- The resource planning of power vs dispel dice is a major part of the fun in magic, so I'm extremely sceptical about such a fundamental change.
- I think more detail on the fighting rank would have been nice, because that just sets off alarm bells. The minimal information in the article just makes me think deathstars again but wide instead of deep.

Even more pessimistic than I was before.

These are clearly the legacy/"legends" index style armies that will be available upon launch so players can use their existing collections, rather than the new armies they will be updating as part of the continued development and support of the game.

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 Undead_Love-Machine wrote:
the wizards tower that looked excellent except for the skulls

Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down?

Ignoring the skull joke, I'm pretty sure that there was only one wizards tower (skullvane manse), unless I've forgotten one? The Warmaster one doesn't count

Witchfate Tor, Dreadstone Blight, Deathknell Watch

I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

 Mr Morden wrote:


So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

 Skywave wrote:
I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

Imho the best version was the one that was published in WD during 6th edition as 'More interactive magic' where you could add additional power/dispel dice if you succeeded and the enemy succeeded in dispelling; that got the right tug-of-war feeling without being overly complicated. It also produced memorable moments of your scroll caddy goading the enemy wizard lord into overextending into a disastrous mishap roll

Queektail wrote:
I admit the negativity on display is starting to get a bit irritating now, especially as we don't know all that much about rules, release date, etc. I'd much rather see positive discussion rather than all the doom and gloom.

Yeah, it's not great, but as an early critic of GW's marketing approach I do find it fascinating to see just how much hostility GW manages to foster with the way they're doing things.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Geifer wrote:


I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,

I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.

I'm aware rotation in Middle Earth exists, but I've not enough paid attention to it to have much of an idea how it works. The idea doesn't sound all that great to me, getting Tomb Kings back but not being able to buy a portion of the kits at my leisure. It doesn't seem functional, or customer friendly for that matter. Not that that means anything to GW.

 Skywave wrote:
I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

I liked the magic phase, by and large. That always was an entertaining part of our games. Certainly in need of tweaks, but... well, we have no real idea how dropping it actually turns out, but it does feel excessive if it follows 40k 10th ed (or 3rd ed for that matter) sensibilities.

Only thing that I immediately thought it might prevent:

Me: I'd like to use my Casket...
My opponent: *pulls out Scroll of Nope* I'm sure you would.

 Skywave wrote:
I myself always enjoyed the mini game that was the magic phase. Dice pool, deck of cards, whatever, I liked that most of the time!

They way they changed it up in 40k 10th is quite lackluster, so I hope they have something more interactive in mind for Fantasy despite the announced change.

I hated the number of games decided by a single casting....

 KidCthulhu wrote:
Anyone else notice a distinct lack of moment trays? Will units often reform shape like in Clan War?

That was cool. And really cumbersome ^^

from the latest annual report:

We have two main universes/settings - our dark, gritty fantasy sci-fi universe, which encompasses ‘Warhammer 40,000’, ‘Warhammer The
Horus Heresy’ and ‘Necromunda’, and our unique fantasy setting that includes ‘Warhammer Age of Sigmar’, ‘Blood Bowl’ (albeit a tongue
in cheek parody) and, the soon to be released, ‘Warhammer The Old World’. We believe our IP to be among the best in the w

"soon" can mean a lot here but I would at least expect something until the next years report

 Geifer wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Geifer wrote:


I don't know how GW plans to keep another extensive set of miniature ranges in production,

I don't think they do, honestly. They'll keep a core selection of kits around, but I have a feeling this will work more like MESBG and have a rotating range.

I'm aware rotation in Middle Earth exists, but I've not enough paid attention to it to have much of an idea how it works. The idea doesn't sound all that great to me, getting Tomb Kings back but not being able to buy a portion of the kits at my leisure. It doesn't seem functional, or customer friendly for that matter. Not that that means anything to GW.

Many people seem to assume that all returning kits will be available at launch, alongside new resin/plastic kits. Given the status of TOW as a specialist game, and the sheer number of returning kits, I'd be surprised if it doesn't work like MESBG. I can't see how it could work otherwise.

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

Or even some butterfly effect event that subtly but definitively makes the existing timeline divergent, however small that might be.
Does the world still end if Nagash was already awake and active, without needing ET1 to kill off Nehekhara?

Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

* No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
* Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
* Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

In theory, they have unlimited free passes by going 'The Warp did it, it's an alternative reality, did you know that there's infinity of them?' but GW has said, uncharacteristically for them, that the End Times are a hard fact, there is no getting around them, and the community has to deal with it. Musings to the contrary are, at this point, the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'Neeneer neeneer, i cannot heeeear youuuuu'. If they ever want to re-negotiate on this, it will be very, very far from now, after a long period on just refusing to comment on the question.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

Yeah, multiple timelines and universes have been part of WHFB for a long time: the original ending for Enemy Within, the original plan for Tamurkhan, the bubble universes shown in Giantslayer, etc.

Teclis slumps to the ground, sweating from the strain of his vision quest.

"we have to stop this future from happening, it all starts in the empire of man"

and thats been my head cannon before every game of WHFB in the last 10 years (or has it been longer than that)

I should image ToW will just focus on the time its set in and never mention the elephant in the lore that is the end times.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

* No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
* Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
* Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....

I still think it's because they are afraid of anything possibly "invalidating" AOS to the part of the AOS player base that switched over solely because it was the only GW current supported Fantasy game.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Multiple worlds and timelines are part of the ongoing lore - have been for a LONG time - alt universes like Blood Bowl exist. But agreed yeah they want to keep the link to AOS - cool - I like AOS

I still think they have shot themselves in the foot but maybe I am completely wrong

* No "new" factions for years despite working on them with CA for years - entire 8th ed army book made for Cathay but hey we don;t need to do anything with that.....us Whales don;t want stuff thats never been released for the game....
* Super expensive resin models of stuff we already have rather than era specific lords and heroes - so rather than Bretonnian Standard bearer - it should have been a person (that you can also use as a generic Standard) - same with Tomb Kings. Add some lore, generate some interest in the era you are trying to sell....
* Just re-using models that make no sense and going -yeah whatever....

I still think it's because they are afraid of anything possibly "invalidating" AOS to the part of the AOS player base that switched over solely because it was the only GW current supported Fantasy game.

Maybe - but then they should actually support the "new" older in time setting - tell us about it...make us want to know more....

I don't get them - they have tomb kings in AOS lore, are bringing them back for the Old World but don't want to sell them for both systems? As long as the models sell - its good?

Same with Cathay and Kislev models - they would be fine in AOS....

But instead they want to split resources....

 Tamereth wrote:
Teclis slumps to the ground, sweating from the strain of his vision quest.

"we have to stop this future from happening, it all starts in the empire of man"

and thats been my head cannon before every game of WHFB in the last 10 years (or has it been longer than that)

I should image ToW will just focus on the time its set in and never mention the elephant in the lore that is the end times.

Teclis considers if the best move is to trust in Mannfred doing the right thing whilst sending his niece to him to be tortured and sacrificed and goes...no probably not. Lets just chop that specific vampire up and see what else we can do...

Love the useless semantics of lore discussions - Company will do whatever they want with the fluff to suit their business plans.

I hope that magic still has the push/pull element of dispell dice etc. I expect we'll just use power dice across a whole turn, like a turn by turn form of command points.

I hope the images they shared represent unit sizes. 50+ units may look cool but they're expensive, time consuming to paint and don't represent "realism" of ranked combat any more than a unit of 15 does. To my mind each model has to represent 20 individuals or so to reflect an actual melee era battle.

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you remember right, when the game was first announced the objective was to bring forth a game so people could use their old armies.

If that had been their goal, it failed right off the bat by rebasing everything.

It wasn't really the goal, though. The short term goal was (IMO) merely to bring back those Fantasy players who don't like AoS. The long term goal is to sell them new models, because that's the ultimate goal of every GW game. I would expect that any anachronisms in the initial range will eventually be replaced with more appropriate new (and more expensive) models.



Speaking of rebasing, that photo confirms for me that moving to larger bases is largely a mistake. Most of those units look way too spread out. I'll be sticking to 20mm for my human and smaller models.

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

There, sorted.

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Come on. This is ridiculous reasoning. Retconning away the End Times won’t make AoS go away. There’s no reason they can’t have both AOS and a non-End Times Old World in the age of the multiverse trope. We can have AOS without the sad need to keep WHFB’s setting dead and buried.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

Come on. This is ridiculous reasoning. Retconning away the End Times won’t make AoS go away. There’s no reason they can’t have both AOS and a non-End Times Old World in the age of the multiverse trope. We can have AOS without the sad need to keep WHFB’s setting dead and buried.

Indeed, in a world where both AoS and Bloodbowl exist, it wouldn't be hard to have WHFB in another separate timeline.

I'm not sure it's really necessary, but it would have been a viable option.

I recall one of the preview articles laying out pretty explicitly that they weren't going to touch the End Times at all? It read to me like they were pretty definitively trying to shut down talk of alternate-timeline stuff. Could be misremembering though.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I recall one of the preview articles laying out pretty explicitly that they weren't going to touch the End Times at all? It read to me like they were pretty definitively trying to shut down talk of alternate-timeline stuff. Could be misremembering though.

Just one more failure of GW’s marketing approach to TOW. “Don’t worry, folks. This new game comes pre-dead! Everything dies and it’s all meaningless! What a fun escape from life!”

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

Just one more failure of GW’s marketing approach to TOW. “Don’t worry, folks. This new game comes pre-dead! Everything dies and it’s all meaningless! What a fun escape from life!”

I mean, that logic could be applied to any setting, though. Sooner or later, everyone dies. Every setting has an end date, regardless of whether or not it's been written down. The point of a setting is to give your games some background now, not to ensure the eternal survival of your army's fictional homeland.

An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

I’m also opposed the the very idea of going back in time for a game set in a specific conflict or period. If I was interested in historical gaming, I wouldn’t look to Warhammer Fantasy.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

Why, though?

I can see how it might make a difference if you're actually playing in the End Times with the knowledge of how it's going to end regardless of what happens, although even then the game you're playing is about what happens now, not what happens at the end of the story arc.

But when you wind the setting back a couple of thousand years, how it all ends way off in the future is irrelevant. The setting's eventual preordained ending has no impact on what is happening in this particular part of the timeline, and whether or not that ending exists your game has no impact on the setting. The 'sandbox' is exactly the same in either case.

I still think the only reason TOW exists is the insane success of the Total Warhammer PC titles.

 RustyNumber wrote:
I still think the only reason TOW exists is the insane success of the Total Warhammer PC titles.

I mean, yes? They pretty much admitted that when they talked about designing TOW Kislev models when they were designing Kislev for TWWIII.

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

Why, though?

I can see how it might make a difference if you're actually playing in the End Times with the knowledge of how it's going to end regardless of what happens, although even then the game you're playing is about what happens now, not what happens at the end of the story arc.

But when you wind the setting back a couple of thousand years, how it all ends way off in the future is irrelevant. The setting's eventual preordained ending has no impact on what is happening in this particular part of the timeline, and whether or not that ending exists your game has no impact on the setting. The 'sandbox' is exactly the same in either case.

Because the game itself is uninteresting. The setting is the draw. I have bought over the years at least one box from each faction, and whole armies for half of them, not to play the game but entirely on the strength of the setting as a living thing. I like creating my own dwarf hold, Empire city, High Elf colony, etc.. I like reading up on obscure bits of fluff that expand the universe, finding a place for my own forces to fit in. I’m not interested in the settled past or a setting that exists only for one more day; I want a sandbox where I can build my own dudes, read some novels, and wonder. With the Old World blown up, there’s nothing to inspire wonder. Cold speculation, maybe, but clinical like a post-mortem.

I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

I think that's what puzzles me the most here... Because it sounds like we are indeed inspired by the same things, but you find knowing the ending to be limiting, while I look at all the space in between now and that ending and imagine how to fill it in.

The Old World isn't dealing with the settled past. We have only very broad strokes about the events of that time period and everything leading from there to the End Times. There is still plenty of room for inserting your own creations into the mix.

Hell, if the ending is the problem, then just ignore it. Bung your own Fassbender and McAvoy proxies in there and assume that the future is really just more of a set of guidelines than an actual rule. Sure, the setting was destroyed... but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't.

If I ever get any reason to get back into it, say new William King or CL Werner novels, that will indeed be my headcanon. But it’s still an obstacle to overcome that doesn’t need to be there in the first place.

Learning about the last of the Old World mattered to me in terms of giving insight into the present and near future. I loved the build up to Storm of Chaos, and even the little novellas for Storm of Magic—but I read the Age of Heroes (or whatever it was called) more to sift for juicy fluff nuggets than because I wanted to experience Sigmar’s life or the Sundering or Nagash’s rise. With the future dead, traveling to the last feels like Langoliers, where the past is tasteless and lifeless.

I wouldn’t want to make my own Space Marine Chapter if I knew some guy in a suit had already abridged its future just so I’d have to buy a new product.

Why should the burden rest on me to make the setting breathe again and not the company that killed it in the first place?

You should ask Horus Heresy players how they feel about their setting having a built in end date. Especially since it’s one that will likely eventually see the tabletop.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
You should ask Horus Heresy players how they feel about their setting having a built in end date. Especially since it’s one that will likely eventually see the tabletop.

Asserts facts not in evidence.
Far more likely that they will keep dragging things out longer and longer, asymptotically approaching the final battle between Horus and the Emperor, but never actually reaching it.

Kind of like the "last" book of G. R. R. Martin's Song of Ice and Fire series.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
You should ask Horus Heresy players how they feel about their setting having a built in end date. Especially since it’s one that will likely eventually see the tabletop.

technically their current campaign has an end goal with the siege of terra
their setting continues longer and does not end with Horus death as the universe still exists and the Legions still fight the Imperium for another 1000-2000 years as they are

so even with HH even an end, it does not blow up the world and replaces it with something different
your Death Guard still exists in 40k, while the Nuln from TOW does not in AoS

hence why the blowing up of the world is seen as unnecessary, you could have had the very same setting for AoS with the EndTimes just opening the realm gates adding a time skip of 10k years and have the Age of Sigmar with the old Warhammer world still existing as one upon many and having Karaz-A-Karak or Altdorf being a City of Sigmar

the settings are a little different here as there is clear cut between TOW and AOS that is not there in HH and 40k.
in addition, for HH there were dedicated models of the past released and not just "those models are not longer usable in 40k, so they are moved to HH"

Horus Heresy would not have started well when the 2nd Editon would have just seen old 40k kits available instead of dedicated HH models

 kodos wrote:

in addition, for HH there were dedicated models of the past released and not just "those models are not longer usable in 40k, so they are moved to HH"

HH was built from FWs Space Marine range. There were new models released such as Legion specific units and Primarchs but the majority of the range was comprised of kits brought out for previous FW campaigns such as the Badab War (which many consider the spiritual precursor to HH). This range eventually grew but the core of most armies was made up of kits released prior to the first HH game book.
The newer version of HH increased accessibility by moving the game from FW as its primary source of models, something TOW doesn't have to do because GW already has the catalogue of models. It was primary able to capitalise on the untapped source of revenue that was people who like Space Marines but hate resin kits and reselling kits to existing customers who wanted an alternative to heavy resin bricks on their tabletops. Combine that with good value boxes like the Age of Darkness box or even just the Legion Tacticals and weapon upgrades, and HH had a good starting point.

so HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get

 kodos wrote:
so HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get

You mean like the models that have been shown so far? Because that's how HH started. FW didn't just release every single Primarch and new unit in Book 1 in one go, it took time for that to happen.
Deimos vehicles, Mk2b Land Raiders, Phobos Land Raiders, all the Marine armour patterns, and Contemptors were all not HH original products.
The major difference between TOW and HH is that one has Space Marines which GW will always be able to sell.
HH also didn't start as its own game but rather a supplement to regular 40k at the time. It wasn't until 8th Ed that HH became a distinct game with the Age of Darkness rulebook and even then it was basically a cleaned up version of 40k.
Comparisons between the two are extremely unfair.

I think that the fact that the new game is going to feature some of the classic armies but not other has the potential to affect more people.

Me, for example. The only WFB army I kept is Dark Elves.

Grail Seeker wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

People angry about gunpowder in The Old World time period are just incorrect anyway based on all the previous fluff. The Empire has had it for centuries at this point. Dwarfs for longer. Different tech but the Steam-Tanks are also rolling around and have been for a while.

 Gert wrote:

 kodos wrote:
so HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get

You mean like the models that have been shown so far? Because that's how HH started. FW didn't just release every single Primarch and new unit in Book 1 in one go, it took time for that to happen.
Deimos vehicles, Mk2b Land Raiders, Phobos Land Raiders, all the Marine armour patterns, and Contemptors were all not HH original products.
The major difference between TOW and HH is that one has Space Marines which GW will always be able to sell.
HH also didn't start as its own game but rather a supplement to regular 40k at the time. It wasn't until 8th Ed that HH became a distinct game with the Age of Darkness rulebook and even then it was basically a cleaned up version of 40k.
Comparisons between the two are extremely unfair.

No that were not original HH models but those were "Space Marine from the past" or "previous design" models

no one is saying that HH released with all the current line up and things like the Mk2 LR are not re-branded 40k models used in a new game that is set 10k years in the past but were made as 10k years old designs to be used in 40k

if TOW would start by using an existing FW model for Magnus the Pious, which was originally made to be used in Warhammer Fantasy, than you could compare it
but what we get is the old non-Primaris Marneus Calgar as Horus Heresy area Ultramarines Captain and non-Primaris Landspeeders as heresy Jetbikes, and I doubt that HH would have done attracted players if this was the only models it got

the models were not originally designed for a new game, but they were designed as relics from the past which actually fits the Horus Heresy setting
and this is what TOW does not have at all, it has a new dedicated setting but does not get models matching that setting

so there is no real point in starting the game in the year 2200 instead of 2500 if there is nothing else in the back.
because a 2200 campaign book could have been released later in combination with new models as well, no need to do it now without support

 Gert wrote:

 kodos wrote:
so HH had dedicated models that fit the specific setting right from the start and never got re-branded 40k models as main source

that is exactly what people expected TOW to have but does not get

You mean like the models that have been shown so far? Because that's how HH started. FW didn't just release every single Primarch and new unit in Book 1 in one go, it took time for that to happen.
Deimos vehicles, Mk2b Land Raiders, Phobos Land Raiders, all the Marine armour patterns, and Contemptors were all not HH original products.
The major difference between TOW and HH is that one has Space Marines which GW will always be able to sell.
HH also didn't start as its own game but rather a supplement to regular 40k at the time. It wasn't until 8th Ed that HH became a distinct game with the Age of Darkness rulebook and even then it was basically a cleaned up version of 40k.
Comparisons between the two are extremely unfair.

You can't really blame people for the comparison when GW led their series of preview articles with this:

GW wrote:The Old World is to Warhammer Age of Sigmar, as the Horus Heresy is to Warhammer 40,000. The bedrock of lore from which mortals rose to godhood and legends were forged. And like the Horus Heresy, seeing those mythic heroes in action has an undeniable appeal, as does re-creating the glorious armies of a previous epoch – an exciting proposition for hobbyists and gamers alike. And now, we have a dedicated team in the Warhammer Studio beginning the work of bringing all that awesome back to the tabletop.

Quote from this article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/11/15/old-world-new-warhammer/

GW made the comparison and not just about lore, but also recreation on the tabletop. We've only really seen concrete ideas of how The Old World as a product is going to look, and even that is spotty for now. Prior to that, we had more than three years in which that was about the only thing we had to go on. That has a way of shaping expectations and if GW was careless enough to suggest it and not follow through with it, the issue isn't customers somehow drawing the wrong conclusions.

Or we could just remember that WFB is not a relatively fresh injection into Age of Sigmar's storied background.

It's an apples and oranges comparison, and we should call it as such.

 Albertorius wrote:
I think that the fact that the new game is going to feature some of the classic armies but not other has the potential to affect more people.

Me, for example. The only WFB army I kept is Dark Elves.

Dark Elves are still getting an army list.

About knowing the ending being a reason for not enjoying as much a game : that's why I personnally don't enjoy historical games. I see no point to "redo" battles while I know how it ended. That also why I wasn't interested into old Battle or AoS scenarios directly inspired from stories in their past, like War of the Beard. So I do understand people not getting into TOW for the same reason.

I liked reading the background, though. I can also see the enjoyment of the pure collection part with painting an army "as it was". Just not keen on replaying battles with it. I'd rather tell my own story with my battles, while I do not know how it will end.

JimmyWolf87 wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

People angry about gunpowder in The Old World time period are just incorrect anyway based on all the previous fluff. The Empire has had it for centuries at this point. Dwarfs for longer. Different tech but the Steam-Tanks are also rolling around and have been for a while.

Sigh...That was NOT what I was saying AT ALL - the issues were having specfically units and people from 2500 IC when they could be doing stuff from the actual period they choose to use- as I expelained at some length.

I'm not a critical issue for me playing TOW but I can understand people who feel the destruction of the world killed a lot of (potentially all) interest in the setting.

As an example I feel that way about Game of Thrones (the books might be different, cope cope cope etc). The whole world seems a lot less interesting because you go from "anything could happen" to "no, I know what happens, and it sucks."

But as said, I'm much more concerned about the game as a game - the rules and the models they want to sell. The messaging there continues to be all over the place. If we get a rulebook that's basically 9th edition, plus a few forgeworld minis, then it possibly won't be the worst thing in the world. Not sure I love ditching the magic phase entirely, but would have to see how it works.

Really though the question's going to be why its taken 4 years to produce.

 Mr Morden wrote:

JimmyWolf87 wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:


So then they were incredably stupid to set in a older period were they not? set it ten years before the End Times - no has to mess about with their minis

I would say no. It wasn't stupid to move the setting back in time. If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

People angry about gunpowder in The Old World time period are just incorrect anyway based on all the previous fluff. The Empire has had it for centuries at this point. Dwarfs for longer. Different tech but the Steam-Tanks are also rolling around and have been for a while.

Sigh...That was NOT what I was saying AT ALL - the issues were having specfically units and people from 2500 IC when they could be doing stuff from the actual period they choose to use- as I expelained at some length.

Eh? I wasn't disagreeing with you.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
An implied end is very different from an explicit “everything burned and the ashes were salted” ending. The sandbox feels closed in a definitive way that really can’t be compared to franchises with open ended natures.

Why, though?

I can see how it might make a difference if you're actually playing in the End Times with the knowledge of how it's going to end regardless of what happens, although even then the game you're playing is about what happens now, not what happens at the end of the story arc.

But when you wind the setting back a couple of thousand years, how it all ends way off in the future is irrelevant. The setting's eventual preordained ending has no impact on what is happening in this particular part of the timeline, and whether or not that ending exists your game has no impact on the setting. The 'sandbox' is exactly the same in either case.

Because the game itself is uninteresting. The setting is the draw. I have bought over the years at least one box from each faction, and whole armies for half of them, not to play the game but entirely on the strength of the setting as a living thing. I like creating my own dwarf hold, Empire city, High Elf colony, etc.. I like reading up on obscure bits of fluff that expand the universe, finding a place for my own forces to fit in. I’m not interested in the settled past or a setting that exists only for one more day; I want a sandbox where I can build my own dudes, read some novels, and wonder. With the Old World blown up, there’s nothing to inspire wonder. Cold speculation, maybe, but clinical like a post-mortem.

I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

Its not like we have seen abosolutely everything GW will release for the old world. There will still be new models, those models will likely be designed with the Old World in mind rather than the End Times.

Tyel wrote:
I'm not a critical issue for me playing TOW but I can understand people who feel the destruction of the world killed a lot of (potentially all) interest in the setting.

As an example I feel that way about Game of Thrones (the books might be different, cope cope cope etc). The whole world seems a lot less interesting because you go from "anything could happen" to "no, I know what happens, and it sucks."

But as said, I'm much more concerned about the game as a game - the rules and the models they want to sell. The messaging there continues to be all over the place. If we get a rulebook that's basically 9th edition, plus a few forgeworld minis, then it possibly won't be the worst thing in the world. Not sure I love ditching the magic phase entirely, but would have to see how it works.

Really though the question's going to be why its taken 4 years to produce.

In this case I can believe it's just because it's Forge World/Specialist Games and it's a question of resource allocation. They had a pretty massive plastic budget for Horus Heresy and took the better part of a year to release all the kits. Interestingly Blood Bowl and Necromunda have kind of dried up lately with no new teams for a while and two House vehicles missing respectively, as if they can't get all that stuff designed and produced at the same time. It's part of the reason why I'm having such trouble seeing how GW plans to maintain The Old World as it only adds more models that need to be in production.

I could see it being a question of The Old World just waiting its turn, instead of difficulty of getting the rules or background written, for instance.

Let's throw in some Covid delays, because if I don't, someone else is going to bring it up, and it's not that much different from the release schedule of new editions of the main game that get prioritized and all the resources they need to release on time.

Not that I expect GW to address the question. And if they did, it'd be some variation of "just as planned" anyway.

tneva82 wrote:
There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

"Might end one day" ain't the same as "it ended today" as far as the audience's ability to engage with the material is concerned and GW knows that well. Note how both 40k and AoS have clear existential threats, but no clear expiration dates.

You don't run a setting as a product with the gravestone already inscribed.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

"Might end one day" ain't the same as "it ended today" as far as the audience's ability to engage with the material is concerned and GW knows that well. Note how both 40k and AoS have clear existential threats, but no clear expiration dates.

You don't run a setting as a product with the gravestone already inscribed.

IMHO it's especially glaring as the stories and books becaming increasingly centered around 'faction exemplars' and legendary characters, and many of them have lifespans long enough to be present in the setting. You know that Malekith's story will end in a certain way, you know that Archaon will be the last Everchosen (and all before him fail) and so on and so on. The characters were used to present and manifest the character and motivations of their faction, and drive the metaplot, and now much of that has lost its appeal because their formerly open-ended plotlines have become 'history' and have a 'canon' ending. It's the difference of having open-ended plot hooks from where you can launch your own stories and campaigns, and being basically forced to play 'alternative histories' - the difference might seem small to some, but for others it matters.

?

Malekith's story hasn't ended. He's still very much alive in AoS, even though the game devs haven't reintroduced him yet (and WHY NOT!? Quit dragging your feet, GW!).

Vlad and Isabella might be better examples.

Malekith being absent from AoS is really odd too because he basically rules one whole realm. The Shadow Realm is mostly his, the Daughters of Khain (who feature a lot) are basically one tiny corner.

I keep getting a feeling that either GW keeps changing their mind; hitting a creative limit; worried that they should just bring back Dark Elves (the whole army IS in AoS barring about 2 hero models and the reaper bolt thrower)

Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

^^^^ this

and sticking to older Lore and making your own up anyway

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.

 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

Practically, you don't need to, but it still matters for some people. It's not a rational belief, but it's a belief that exists nonetheless. 'Your dudes' will never be part of the official story, 'your dudes' will never receive a high production value product specifically displaying them, or a nice novel that shows you their exploits and adventures. It's a bit of a consumerist attitude, but in a hobby context, wanting nice products to consume in peace is a valid request.

 Londinium wrote:


One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win.

It's not really a claim, more like an official mood that was clear in 1st edition of Warhammer RPG (where it was litterally written as such). It was to set a "dark fantasy" tone, where heroes can only delay the inevitable and that their fight is, in the end, in vain. Yet they still cling to their small victories and be like points of light burning in the darkness for a short time.

Mood changed as years and editions pass on, sometimes being a bit lighter (like that edition with funny cartoon pictures in the rulebook), sometimes a bit darker. But the final victory for Chaos was always a recurrent theme.

Even in TOW, their choice of putting Asavar Khule's invasion so far in its "future" is certainly a way to keep having that Chaos threat of destruction still close to the setting of that time.

I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.

You may hate what they did with End Times, but I'm pretty sure that "Malekith was actually the true Phoenix King" was not made up on a whim for it, and that it was actually the underlining tragedy of the elves' civil war. The Khaine book wasn't the worst thought of the series, IMHO.

Here, since the focus will be more on high elves colonies in the Old World, I believe they won't push that much on that button, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't make hints at that in the story forward.

No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

Agreed. Just any wargame less silly than AoS would do by now. Set 500 years before end times or whatever. No different than playing 30k or star wars old republic or anything middle earth set before the war of the ring.

But that leaves the question why cant they just release the game. Its been years.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.

Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...

 Just Tony wrote:
No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

Oh man, I was so angry at that reveal in Khaine. The background in the 4th edition High Elves book was some of the best in the range, and then it all gets upended by telling us that Doctor Doom was the hero all along. Ridiculous.

Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

 Just Tony wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.

Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...

Oh do give it over. It's a game, not a lifestyle.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

bobthe4th wrote:
Every self respecting Fantasy player knows that the Old World is alive and well and AoS lore is just fanfiction that can be safely ignored!

Or you act like a normal person and let people enjoy what they want to enjoy. Hard as that may be for some.

Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence. While you might not find his attitude toward AOS palatable, it doesn't change the fact that these situations are not even remotely the same...

Oh do give it over. It's a game, not a lifestyle.

Oh do give it over. You're a poster on a wargaming forum, not the minister of the bureau of controlling others' preferences and emotional attitudes.

 Just Tony wrote:
No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

Poor Matt Ward gets blamed needlessly. Gavin Thorpe, who was involved in Malekith a much longer time before, has also written the plot behind that.

But anyway, what I'm saying here for TOW is that GW is still the same company for its background. There are things that will clearly be written differently, but I don't think the main line won't differ that much. Especially for elves, whose history is set on a certain course from the beginning.

 Just Tony wrote:
Easy to say when you aren't the person whose "thing they enjoy" is wiped out of existence.

That's a very melodramatic way to describe a company discontinuing a rulebook.

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges

Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.

The High Elves have ignored any and all rules when it's convenient for them, where the Phoenix King is concerned. The "Can't be the previous king's son because the Everqueen!" was conveniently ignored with Caledor's kid. In short, Malekith got screwed out of the throne for political reasons (the "marry the Everqueen" tradition that was one excuse hadn't been established yet, since Malekith's dad had been the only Phoenix King at that point). Whether that was a smart decision on the part of the High Elves is something to debate elsewhere. It is unquestioned that Malekith during that time was brilliant. He was an excellent leader. He was also a skilled diplomat, as shown by his dealings with the dwarves. Based on his talents alone, he could have been an excellent ruler. The question is whether he ultimately would have gone bad anyway, or whether his resentment over getting pushed aside is what made him what he became. If the former, the High Elves made the right choice. If the latter, the petty jealousy of the High Elf princes led to disaster for their race.

I'm sorry but "Malekith was meant to be the Phoenix King (murdering the previous one was just a legitimate form of politics I guess) and would have been if he'd managed to stay in the fire for another second" was awful story telling.

Gav Thorpe is a legend and has written some great stuff, but when he was reduced to going "if you don't like it, maybe I should have just had the High Elves all die to Dwarfs" I think he knew it wasn't the best. (Or something like that, it was nearly 10 years ago.)

Anyway, I hope the reason for this time period is that we can get some new characters and stories. Maybe on a slightly smaller scale - fights over land rather than the fate of the world.

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges

Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.

Or just give every army a war altar which boosts your guys so much its obligatory, with thenoption to drop it and take a general on a monstrous mount or papanquin instead. Pretty much centerpiece.

I really enjoyed the Tyrion and Teclis novels so some of the characters from that a few decades earlier would be great - even better if we get some novels /short stories alongside which they are doing for AOS and 40k on the Wc site so hope is there

On the other hand I really disliked alot of the 8th ed lore which lead into ET so hopefully its more like 6th ed!

Tyel wrote:
when he was reduced to going "if you don't like it, maybe I should have just had the High Elves all die to Dwarfs" I think he knew it wasn't the best. (Or something like that, it was nearly 10 years ago.)

It was "There will be as many Elves as the plot demands".

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Londinium wrote:
They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

 Londinium wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

You are stressed over things that do not really matter. Let go of the lore and just enjoy playing the game.

 Laemos wrote:

 Londinium wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Conversely, why do you need GW to say this?

It's a bugbear, not a major issue, I can live with GW not saying it. Just like I can live with the setting always teetering on being destroyed by Chaos, doesn't mean that it was guaranteed to be destroyed by Chaos in the lore - at least until the End Times started being written.

You are stressed over things that do not really matter. Let go of the lore and just enjoy playing the game.

That's not how GW games work...

Mozzamanx wrote:

Grail Seeker wrote:
If you did it 10 years before the end times you have no where to grow into. In the setting they chose they have breathing room to make a lot of new models if there proves to be a market on top of selling the old - New King and Lords in Bretonnia, new dwarf thanes, new models of people fighting for the throne of the empire etc. And if it proves profitable you can advance the setting and eventually get to Magnus the Pious which would be very popular I imagine.

Besides if you set the setting 10 years before the End Times the same people angry about gunpowder in the Old World would be angry that there is no point because the setting has a definitive ending.

Its not like retcons are a foreign concept to warhammer fans anyways.

Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

Or even some butterfly effect event that subtly but definitively makes the existing timeline divergent, however small that might be.
Does the world still end if Nagash was already awake and active, without needing ET1 to kill off Nehekhara?

GW is protecting the integrity of the AoS brand as their flagship fantasy setting product. They aren't going to retcon AoS into an alternate timeline. Give it up.


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Tsagualsa wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Except GW doesn't want the End Times to be prevented at all.
The End Times allowed GW to make AoS and no matter how salty WHFB fans are, AoS is never going away. One linear timeline keeps things simple.

In theory, they have unlimited free passes by going 'The Warp did it, it's an alternative reality, did you know that there's infinity of them?' but GW has said, uncharacteristically for them, that the End Times are a hard fact, there is no getting around them, and the community has to deal with it. Musings to the contrary are, at this point, the equivalent to sticking your fingers in your ears and going 'Neeneer neeneer, i cannot heeeear youuuuu'. If they ever want to re-negotiate on this, it will be very, very far from now, after a long period on just refusing to comment on the question.

This. I guess a segment of the community is just pretending the Warcom article that confirmed the inevitability of The End Times didn't happen.


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 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

I think that's what puzzles me the most here... Because it sounds like we are indeed inspired by the same things, but you find knowing the ending to be limiting, while I look at all the space in between now and that ending and imagine how to fill it in.

The Old World isn't dealing with the settled past. We have only very broad strokes about the events of that time period and everything leading from there to the End Times. There is still plenty of room for inserting your own creations into the mix.

Hell, if the ending is the problem, then just ignore it. Bung your own Fassbender and McAvoy proxies in there and assume that the future is really just more of a set of guidelines than an actual rule. Sure, the setting was destroyed... but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't.

Indeed. Look at Horus Heresy - everyone knows the ending, yet the books consistently hit NYT's bestsellers list, and the game has only increased in popularity over time. No doubt some people are put off knowing the endings, but many are not.


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 Londinium wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.

Thats not necessarily true. Fictional universes always have a setting bible that is not for public knowledge that spells out details in the setting and lore that are not made explicitly clear. The existence of Malekith as the true Phoenix King would be something that could (and probably would) be spelled out in the setting bible, as its an important character fact that dictates how that character moves through the setting and interacts with other characters, regardless of whether or not it was ever intended for public real world knowledge. Something like the world having an impending destined/intended fixed ending *could* also be in the bible and would be more than just "mood music" (theres a reason why that "mood music" keeps getting brought up) - it would seem less likely to be included, but given the grimdark nature of the setting having notes in the bible that "chaos will inevitably win and destroy the world, this is an unavoidable outcome" would be very appropriate for inclusion because its sets the tone for the setting and the stories contained. That it happened during the reign of Karl Franz or was so close into the future of the present setting probably wasn't intended from the get-go however.


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 Just Tony wrote:
No, Malekith was made Phoenix King because Ward has a special place in his heart for Dark Elves, loves to tear down anything he dislikes, and for some odd reason GW at the End Times were catering to him far more than what would be reasonable.

*citation needed.

I'd bet a paycheck that there was no decision made on whether Malekith was the true phoenix king or not upon his creation.

That is just how GW works. It was likely a conversation had when coming up with End Time stories and somebody said, "wouldn't it be cool if..."

I personally don't hate it, but a lot of people did and they took it upon themselves to blame Matt Ward above all others for it.

In either case, Dark Elves are not a part of this setting, at least to start. So elf simps can put away their torches at least for a little while.

They are part of the setting, just not the game. They are in not-north america minding their own business being hedonistic exiles and doing slaver stuff.

 Londinium wrote:

 His Master's Voice wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
There's literally thousanas of years you can explore and make?our own guos and heroes and you HAVE to do on on,e specific yeai? Lol.

Btw. Even if we ignore end times end is same. Chaos wins. Reality busted. Everybody dies. Here. I just ruieed any version of fb and 40k as you now knlw endieg and thus accordieg to you chargent explore it

The "impending doom of the Warhammer world" present in much of the WFB and WFRP background was a mood marker more than any actual threat that would definitively end the setting.

One of my biggest revisionist bugbears is when people claim the WHFB was always going to end and Chaos was always going to win. No they weren't, as you said it was mood music to set the tone, there's every chance that Archaon could have died before even reaching Kislev or that he could have failed in his invasionslike 12 previous everchosens. One of the few mistakes I feel GW has made in it's messaging around TOW (aside from not teaching people how to read articles properly) is insisting on the fact that the End Times will happen. They could have easily taken an approach of 'yes canonically it does but play TOW and create your own future for the WHFB world, if you want to pretend the End Times doesn't happen then go ahead'.

I for one am absolutely refusing to accept that bs that Malekith is actually the true Phoenix King, while he raids Ulthuan in my conception of the TOW period, just as an example.

End in theme yes. Game no.

The inevitable loss is whole bloody sense of setting. The ultimate core thing.

But what you seems to have missed is game was setting. Not advancing story with 1 side winning and game ends. It was supposed to be setting that doesn't have official end because you know what? Point is to sell models. For that game needs to continue.

But theme wise chaos win is inevitable. But gw wasn't originally planning to actually end game.

Setting. Not story.

chaos0xomega wrote:
They are part of the setting, just not the game. They are in not-north america minding their own business being hedonistic exiles and doing slaver stuff.

They're also a force that runs around on Aircraft Carriers Black Arks to raid literally everywhere around the globe, so if any force has a reasonable explanation for turning up wherever the plot needs them to the Dark Elves probably have the best one. They're not 'in focus' for reasons totally outside the lore and background, let's not kid ourselves.

Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.

Grail Seeker wrote:
I'd bet a paycheck that there was no decision made on whether Malekith was the true phoenix king or not upon his creation.

That is just how GW works. It was likely a conversation had when coming up with End Time stories and somebody said, "wouldn't it be cool if..."

Its how most "universes" work. The idea of a Bible is great and all - but no creator knows if "this" book/show/film etc is the one that's going to sell a million copies and start a universe. You may have some idea where a trilogy is going - but then re-write if there are breakout characters, or you get new ideas as you go etc.

I mean the 4th edition High Elf army book was published in 1993. GW didn't have a clue they'd be doing End Times in 20~ years time - and If WHFB had been making £££, they wouldn't have ended it.

When you look at say the Horus Heresy series - it wasn't imagined at the outset as a series of 100~ books. If it had crashed and burned they'd presumably have stopped. But it did well and so got ever more stretched. Certain plot points were set in stone - but others could be created out of very little or nothing. And if readers liked that, embellished. And if readers went "what the hell is this?", then Eldrad could mind-war them in the head.

Anyway, I feel "they aren't in the setting" is like this. They aren't for now. If TOW sells well, nothing stops them going "yeah, they woke up idk, buy our new DE/Skaven/etc".

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.

Going through one of my old high elven army books the setting seems to be set during Bel-Hathor's rule as Phoenix King (The one preceeding Finubar), or possibly early in Finubar's reign depending on the exact year, so the Dark Elves were actually pretty quiet during this period; they'd last attempted an invasion of Ulthuan twice a century or two earlier and gotten pretty beaten up by various earlier Phoenix Kings. The next time they show up is during the Great war against Chaos when they again invade Ulthuan and Tyrian and Teclis get their big debut.

I guess that is why they are "supposedly" not showing up as they're busy licking their wounds / dealing with internal politics. The same argument can also be used for both the Lizardmen, who are largely keeping to themselves right around now, the Skaven, who are busy fighting a civil war unitl the Horned Rat appears, and the non-Nehekaran undead, who got largely wiped out in the Vampire wars.

Last I checked they were getting an army list like everyone else, just no focus during this time.

They are getting an army list like Tomb Kings and Bretonnians got an army list for Age of Sigmar.

As the chosen races get full campaign books and models they will be left further and further behind until GW decides to include them for real.

Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.

They'll probably still show up in the lore, the game just won't focus on them or give them new model releases in it's initial period.

Mozzamanx wrote:
Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

After Archaon got wrecked in the Storm of Chaos campaign (courtesy of the Orcs and Goblins players, mind you), they eventually retconned that out of the Warriors of Chaos army book. The End Times was, essentially, "Storm of Chaos (How It Should Have Happened)".

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 SgtEeveell wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
Well, as the Eldest child and thus heir apparent of the Phoenix King Aenarion, Malekith was the legal Phoenix King.

Well except that the Sorting Hat, uh, I mean Eternal Flame specifically rejected him.

Except every other Phoenix King had rituals and that done before they entered the flame. End Times makes it clear Malekith wasn’t a no. He was a “not right now”

Which tells you alot about ET lore - although maybe it was just to stop him having children with his half sister the Everqueen...which seems a Very good reason not have the Phoenix King as a heridtory thing

On the subject of Old World - do we think they will not have any centre piece models and have two entire fantasy ranges

Centerpiece models are a bit tougher to do in a system like WHFB/Old World, but not impossible. Dragons and Steam Tanks certainly fit the bill, there.

Will they be in the rules? Yep. Dwarven High King, Bretonnian Grail Pilgrims, DE Cauldron of Blood, Skaven Screaming Bell, Imperial War Altar, etc. etc. etc.

Will they be usable in the meta?

News at 11...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
They are part of the setting, just not the game. They are in not-north america minding their own business being hedonistic exiles and doing slaver stuff.

Well, yeah, but doing slaver stuff generally meant raiding the shores of the Empire, Bretonnia, and other places that ARE in the game. I expect that was most DE battles right there, taking out garrisons protecting an area so they could raid it for slaves more efficiently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, I admit it sounds totally bizarre to me that they don't show up. The reasons sound contrived, but I'm also not a WHFB lore expert so I chalk it up to maybe Black Arks not existing yet or maybe this is right after the High Elves pearl harbored the entire Dark Elf fleet and it takes them 100 years to return to the sea in force. Or, yknow, whatever arbitrary made up reason the authors decide to write into the fiction.

Here's your primer on the DE origin. Malekith ruled a province in the NW of Ulthuan, Nagarythe. Malekith goes bad, big civil war, High Elves destroy Nagarythe by sinking it under the waves. Dark Elves use big magic, much juju to turn their surviving cities into huge boats (the Black Arks) and sail off to the New World to found Naggarond. IIRC, they raided Tiranoc for horses shortly afterward, to create their Dark Steeds (took them a while to 'domesticate' Cold Ones). Raiding for slaves didn't take much longer.

Of course, GW can rewrite any of that at their whim, but it would annoy DE players like me to no end...

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
Surely there's a way around this by introducing plot points that prevent the End Times from being inevitable?
If Archaon fails to get one of his artefacts, or Be'lakor does some nonsense to interrupt his ascension, or maybe he has a rival to overcome first?
Maybe we go back to the Storm of Chaos timeline instead of the End Times and Archaon can get pushed back to Brass Keep, with a less hammy ending.

After Archaon got wrecked in the Storm of Chaos campaign (courtesy of the Orcs and Goblins players, mind you), they eventually retconned that out of the Warriors of Chaos army book. The End Times was, essentially, "Storm of Chaos (How It Should Have Happened)".

It wasn't, though. A lot of important pieces were totally changed, a lot of events from Storm of Chaos not only never happened but never even went in the same direction, and a lot of events which did happen were completely new.

Ultimately, Storm of Chaos was done to continue the story of the world. End Times was done to close it. And with at least some irony it was done to create a setting more open for players to invent their own content to inhabit it.


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 Arbitrator wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.

And they'll no doubt get around to the Great War against Chaos eventually.


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 insaniak wrote:

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I don’t know how to explain it to you if you aren’t inspired by the same things. The finality of a setting’s destruction affects enjoyment of the whole setting.

I think that's what puzzles me the most here... Because it sounds like we are indeed inspired by the same things, but you find knowing the ending to be limiting, while I look at all the space in between now and that ending and imagine how to fill it in.

The Old World isn't dealing with the settled past. We have only very broad strokes about the events of that time period and everything leading from there to the End Times. There is still plenty of room for inserting your own creations into the mix.

Hell, if the ending is the problem, then just ignore it. Bung your own Fassbender and McAvoy proxies in there and assume that the future is really just more of a set of guidelines than an actual rule. Sure, the setting was destroyed... but it hasn't happened yet. Maybe it won't.

Both positions seem pretty reasonable to me.

Having just re-read LotR, from the appendices there's endless space for other stories to be told, when Gondor and other kingdoms had "normal" medieval ups and downs and not simply good humans vs bad orcs. If course we never actually see that utilised for setting in games etc. The problem with WFB is where the established history interferes with the gameplay, ie agic is illegal" or "skaven haven't emerged yet" or whatever, but that can just be handwaved or retconned imo.

 Arbitrator wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.

No, that is *not* what they said. They were rather explicit as to what time period the overarching game is set in (as opposed to just the "first wave" as some have tried to misinterpret in order to convince themselves that they arent being screwed over) and that those omitted factions have no business being in the game as a result.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
And they'll no doubt get around to the Great War against Chaos eventually.

They explicitly said the game is set before the Siege of Praag, which is before The Great War Against Chaos. So no, they wont.

I really don't get why so many people have trouble with this. The games time period is from some point after the Vampire Wars to before the Siege of Praag within a soecific geographic region of the setting, in the same way Horus Heresy is set after Istvaan III and before the death of Horus within the context of the conflict between Horus and the Emperor. In the same way that xenos are out of context for the Horus Heresy (its been what, 15 years since they started the game? Xenos ain't coming), dark elves abd skaven are out of context for TOW. In the same way HH doesn't cover the Great Crusade or Scouring, TOW wony cover the Vampire Wars or Great War. Not just through the first wave or initial period, but *ever* - or, yknow, at least as long as current management is in place. The point is that its out of scope and not part of any short or long term plan for the game. Just accept it.

What they explicitly said was that the races were not part of the narrative. The narrative is the over-arching story. It's where the focus is found. They did not rule out the possibility of them occasionally intruding in a seemingly minor skirmish that has important ramifications elsewhere. For instance, if a small zombie army suddenly needs to be crushed by Empire reinforcements that end up just missing a big battle against a greenskin horde as a result, that doesn't mean that VC are suddenly part of the narrative. But it does mean that they just had an important (albeit small) role to play in a scenario that might be worth replaying on the tabletop with a special army list.

Releasing geographically-based expansions (Warhammer: The Old World - Over There) later on would give them plenty of scope for introducing the other races that don't fit into the initial launch story.

 insaniak wrote:
Releasing geographically-based expansions (Warhammer: The Old World - Over There)

I'm in favour of this idea, but only if they keep that naming convention.

of course that is possible "later", but the later we should expect is 10-15 years

if this is the single person project like HH was at the beginning, it will take 5+ years until all the initial suggested armies are seeing their book

they also mentioned that the campaign they start will settle with the Siege of Praag and this is a 100 years away, so from that I expect that someone there has a 10+ year plan for releases

yet this is still all subject to change as without dedicated models lines being there, no investment is done that makes them stick to that plan
might be that they switch again and we see a very different thing and it all starts with the Crusades against Arabia instead

chaos0xomega wrote:


They explicitly said the game is set before the Siege of Praag, which is before The Great War Against Chaos. So no, they wont.

I really don't get why so many people have trouble with this…..

It’s pretty simple, plans change. I mean the original Old World comms was focused on Kislev and a closer tie to Total War, but those original plans have changed just a few years later.

It seems obvious that if the Old World is relatively successful, it will get a second edition / expansion with additional content.

Haven't they advanced the timeline of 40k since Rogue Trader? Who's to say they can't do that here and incorporate whatever they want based on the success of the game.

That will drive future decisions more than anything.

that is what they said, that they will advance the timeline (and no, the timeline in 40k has not really advanced as any advancement was retconned or ignored an edition later)

TOW will start ~2200 in the border princess and advance in story to end 2300 in Praag, and this includes the ~8 factions named and nothing else

if there is another campaign doing a different setting depends what happens after they reach Praag
could as well be a 2nd Edition that starts again in 2200 but in a different place or a different time, or nothing new at all

Where did they say they'd advance the timeline?

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Arbitrator wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yes, all legacy factions are getting whats basically a legends style index army list with the release of The Old World.

Its a legends index. Thats it. No further support unless you're one of the 6 or 8 or whatever chosen factions that would be part of the games ongoing narrative. The rest are explicitly said to not be part of the story they want to tell with this game and will not be featured at all beyond that.

Not quite. They said they won't be part of the initial coverage of the Old World. The door is pretty wide open for a New World expansion.

No, that is *not* what they said. They were rather explicit as to what time period the overarching game is set in (as opposed to just the "first wave" as some have tried to misinterpret in order to convince themselves that they arent being screwed over) and that those omitted factions have no business being in the game as a result.

The idea of "waves" seems to have come from this sentence in the faction reveal article:

Much of the action in the first wave of books and supplements takes place in and around the Border Princes – the barrier lands between the Empire and Orc territory. Accordingly, we will be focusing on nine core factions.

The Skaven re-emerged only after the Horned Rat himself was summoned at Skavenblight to end the strife and instil new purpose into his children (this ties in with the wider rise of Chaos and the destruction wrought by Asavar Kul), turning them into a new power in the world.

Chaos Daemons have existed in the past and will again, but there is an ebb and flow to the power of Chaos – in our period Chaos is at its lowest ebb in a long time. When Asavar Kul rises to become the 12th Everchosen, the power of Chaos will build again, but we won’t see daemonic servants of individual gods for a while yet.

So for the "first wave", we get nine core factions, and then with the "second wave", we'll see the return of the excluded factions, despite the article stating:

The game will be set firmly within the Old World itself – the lands between the coast of Bretonnia to the west and the Worlds Edge Mountains to the east – during the decades immediately before the Great War Against Chaos and the Siege of Praag.

They repeat the where/when setting of the game multiple times throughout the article. As Kodo says, even if the Great War is their intended end for the TOW narrative, it'll be years before we see it. If they intend to bring back the excluded factions, I can't see how they can fit them into the narrative when they literally gave reasons for their exclusion during the period the game is set in.

question here is, what is a "wave" in context of TOW
can be "first wave on release", can also be "first 10 year lasting Edition" and the 2nd wave is the 2nd Edition with a new story line

Tyel wrote:
Where did they say they'd advance the timeline?

Warhammer Fest? one of the release Videos/Stuff/Articles whatever were they confirmed that it will be in the past, starting with border princess and covering a timeframe of approx 100 years till siege of praage as goal

 kodos wrote:
question here is, what is a "wave" in context of TOW
can be "first wave on release", can also be "first 10 year lasting Edition" and the 2nd wave is the 2nd Edition with a new story line

Tyel wrote:
Where did they say they'd advance the timeline?

Warhammer Fest? one of the release Videos/Stuff/Articles whatever were they confirmed that it will be in the past, starting with border princess and covering a timeframe of approx 100 years till siege of praage as goal

I was wondering if there was something more definitive than the article Sathrut quoted. As said, the debate all seems to be in what "first wave" means.
To my mind the Siege of Praag can easily be the Siege of Terra. Theoretically its the end point - in practice, it can remain forever in the future.

I.E. we could have the following
Wave 1: Blood in the Badlands.
Wave 2: Empire Civil War
Wave 3: Great War against Chaos/Siege of Praag.

But we could (theoretically) have

Wave 1: Blood in the Badlands
Wave 2: Trouble in Troll Country - Faction added: Kislev
Wave 3: Imperial Civil War round 1.
Wave 4: Ghosts in the Grey Mountains - Faction Added: Non-Khemri Undead.
Wave 5: Peril from the Great Ocean - Faction Added: Dark Elves as Black Ark Slaving Fleet
Wave 6: Imperial Civil War, round 2.
Wave 7: Lets go treasure hunting in Khemri
Wave 8: Torment in Tilea - Faction added Skaven
Wave 9: Great War against Chaos/Praag etc - Faction Added: Daemons
(Or whatever you imagination can create).

I expect in reality they've got Phase 1 Greenlit and they'll see how it does. Much like how Horus Heresy was vaguely defined early on, and quickly just turned into endless Yakety Sax.

or we can also get:

Wave 1:
Border Princess Book 1: Bretonnia & Khemri
Border Princess Book 2: Empire & Beastmen
Border Princess Book 3: Dwarfs & Orcs
Border Princess Book 4: High Elves & Wood Elves
Great War Against Chaos Book 1: Empire Civil War
Great War Against Chaos Book 2: Magic
Great War Against Chaos Book 3: Chaos Warriors & Kislev added as new faction

Wave 2:
Book 1: Skaven VS Tilea
Book 2: Dark Elves vs Norsca
Book 3: Empire united
etc