I don't think its GW reacting at all - Norsca and the Chaos armies of the Old World are already well established viking/northern barbarian themed elements.
Chaos always came from the north in the Old World for the most part - its more GW just returning Slaves to Darkness to a more northern barbarian design instead of a more "conan" inspired design that steadily crept into Slaves to Darkness esp as they moved to Age of Sigmar
I was refering to the fact that the old chaos barbarians look terrible and are 20 years old, while the Mantic Northern Tribes people look way better and are cheaper.
Astmeister wrote: I was refering to the fact that the old chaos barbarians look terrible and are 20 years old, while the Mantic Northern Tribes people look way better and are cheaper.
Chaos Marauders cost 70 Euro per Box!
I sincerly doubt Mantic is big and threatening enough that GW feels it has to react to its moves.
Astmeister wrote: I was refering to the fact that the old chaos barbarians look terrible and are 20 years old, while the Mantic Northern Tribes people look way better and are cheaper.
Chaos Marauders cost 70 Euro per Box!
I sincerly doubt Mantic is big and threatening enough that GW feels it has to react to its moves.
Also, if Mantic announced in September, then this is the fastest turn around for GW to move production forward that we have ever seen. Finished making new sculpts, mold, manufacture, paint, photograph and make an armybook. This was definitely already on their way. Most likely Mantic heard about GWs schedule and tried to rush theirs out first.
The Northern Alliance miniatures are not from september this year? Or are you refering to the new KoW edition.
The game (KoW) is certainly not a competition for GW anymore.
Like all GW production stuff like this starts years in advance. Like 2-3 years, sometimes 4.
I doubt they released this in response to Mantic. Not to sound like the meme too much but I think GW response to other companies is mostly "I don't think of you at all."
I for one subscribe to the theory that these are a response to the AoS and Old world lines being split. We wouldnt have gotten them if Darthoath marauders were being sold for both, but I'm happy to have so much choice in marauders, and honestly, they mix and match well enough for my tastes
Porsenna wrote: I for one subscribe to the theory that these are a response to the AoS and Old world lines being split. We wouldnt have gotten them if Darthoath marauders were being sold for both, but I'm happy to have so much choice in marauders, and honestly, they mix and match well enough for my tastes
Exactly. Plus they might have been in development or concept ( up to a point) for other projects.
Eg they could have been for a warcry warband and when the split came they got moved over; more poses and such added to the set to beef them up to a full release. It might even be why Warcry suddenly stalled on releases.
Or they were developed as concepts for the new marauders and weren't used so they got brought out of partial production and finished off so the initial design part was done.
Astmeister wrote: The Northern Alliance miniatures are not from september this year? Or are you refering to the new KoW edition.
Varangur coming with 4th were announced in September
Commodus Leitdorf wrote: Like all GW production stuff like this starts years in advance. Like 2-3 years, sometimes 4.
I doubt they released this in response to Mantic. Not to sound like the meme too much but I think GW response to other companies is mostly "I don't think of you at all."
same for Mantic, hence both releasing an asian themed army at the same time is a coincidence at best and not a quick reaction on either line
But Mantic has now new line for northern barbarians, elves and dwarfs in the pipeline, and if GW always comes up with the same army but a little bit earlier there would be pattern
If these are the new Marauders, I hope the base size across the entire list isn't 30mm. Having St3 T3 Marauders on 30mm bases puts them at a real disadvantage. They were upgraded to 25mm bases with the Old World change over, they don't need to go 5mm bigger.
Also hoping for the option for some smaller types of Marauders, so the army isn't so uniformly big. There's got to be some surely who don't get to eat meat for every meal and have a set of weights to train with every day.
They come with 1 command group per 10, so I would not at all be surprised to see them only in boxes of 10. Hopefully GW wouldn't be so silly, but I wouldn't put it past them.
Hulksmash wrote: Nothing for Old World infantry wise has been released in 10's. Even the newest Cathay infantry is a 20-man.
And I'm hoping the trend continues, but shudder at what the box price might be for a box of 20. Definitely getting this box so as not to have to worry about it!
Overread wrote: I wonder if some of those new rules might be some kind of norsca based subfaction? Cause those look very much like Norsconian inspired "totally not viking raider" models.
Even if Norsca themselves aren't around (either in the game timeline point or in the game); it sets the seed for the chaos forces being very much based in the northern reaches.
The War-Com info on the new journal is quite informative:
"this new softback supplement goes into detail about the warrior tribes of Norsca, the four primordial spirits and how they worship them, and Frydaal the Chainmaker’s invasion of the Westerland."
It'll probably describe the tribal versions of the Chaos gods, like Tchar, Loesh and so on. Doubtless reprinting stuff from the 5th edition Realm of Chaos book, which first described the Marauder tribes.
On another forum someone pointed out that the Marauders on foot have the same base width as the Horsemen, which are on 30 x 60mm bases. So... Primaris Marauders?
Shakalooloo wrote: It'll probably describe the tribal versions of the Chaos gods, like Tchar, Loesh and so on. Doubtless reprinting stuff from the 5th edition Realm of Chaos book, which first described the Marauder tribes.
Or possibly Hound/Eagle/Crow/Serpent from TWW.
I like that this gives nice choice though. The default for TOW is strongly Norscan, but the AoS Darkoath are available if people want a more Kurgan vibe.
Overread wrote: I wonder if some of those new rules might be some kind of norsca based subfaction? Cause those look very much like Norsconian inspired "totally not viking raider" models.
Even if Norsca themselves aren't around (either in the game timeline point or in the game); it sets the seed for the chaos forces being very much based in the northern reaches.
The War-Com info on the new journal is quite informative:
"this new softback supplement goes into detail about the warrior tribes of Norsca, the four primordial spirits and how they worship them, and Frydaal the Chainmaker’s invasion of the Westerland."
That probably should have filled out the last Chaos Warriors Arcane Journal - maybe given us some named people other than their single leading champion etc. They seem to be really stretching out the content.
Shakalooloo wrote: It'll probably describe the tribal versions of the Chaos gods, like Tchar, Loesh and so on. Doubtless reprinting stuff from the 5th edition Realm of Chaos book, which first described the Marauder tribes.
I hope they don't go too mundane with them. The models are great, but the tribes still worship supernatural forces, get possessed, get daemons etc. Hopefully there's a good balance between the two.
I think that "Vikings living their normal Viking lives but also subtly influenced by chaos gods" is more interesting and grounded than "Vikings that literally live in coo-coo chaos land, living a hall made of bones and have fights to the death for breakfast every day"
... but they do live in coo coo chaos land? The lands of norsca are plagued by mutant abominations, and the people have a much higher rate of mutation than southerners.
IMO it's more interesting to see the intersection of those people trying to live in that environment, rather than being all mutant all the time or just the tv show Vikings brought to life.
I'm looking forward to what interesting things they'll add to the army - the empire gets mutant demigrypyhs, I think the tribes living in the shadow of chaos would get something at least as ferocious.
chaos0xomega wrote: chaos warhounds? chaos dragons? chaos spawn? mantciores/chimera? Im not understanding what you're missing here.
I mean most of those have either 20+ year old models and look bad (like the old marauders), or are a 20+ year old model of a named character (chaos dragons) - to the point that if you look at how people are making their chaos dragons you would think that like 1 in 5 Ionus Cryptborns sold were for chaos dragons. Plus would be a nice way to give the Norscan tribes an identity beyond Warriors of Chaos - showing them with their own beasties or modern sculpts of some of the older ones etc. The main way we are seeing this stuff now is from the old Forge World kits - ie Skinwolves and Warpfire Dragons.
That said I'd honestly prefer seeing their identity OUTSIDE of chaos. Give us the chaos aspects of their culture, but also show what else they are up to - show us a civilization etc, show us some of their old gods that fell by the wayside when they were forced into the north, still acknowledged in some pockets and old traditions, etc. Like obviously you can't show all of that in the models, but I hope the lore part of the new book digs into all this stuff.
Iirc they worshipped the old gods that the empire and kislev do - Taal, Ulric etc. It seems that those gods are pretty universal throughout the humans in the old world.
I'm really hoping for a massive new centrepiece model for this army, having trouble thinking what could be added from the current range to fit the aesthetic and quality. Belakor or King Brodd I suppose but I'd prefer something a bit more beastlike.
The ebb of chaos is supposed to be at a low point during this era of the game. If there is going to be some kind of big plastic centerpiece i'd figure it'd be a war mammoth.
Thargrim wrote: The ebb of chaos is supposed to be at a low point during this era of the game. If there is going to be some kind of big plastic centerpiece i'd figure it'd be a war mammoth.
Likely the best idea - I mean originally even the Norse Dwarfs used to use Mammoths
chaos0xomega wrote: chaos warhounds? chaos dragons? chaos spawn? mantciores/chimera? Im not understanding what you're missing here.
Seems to be the standard disagreement between people who want/percieve a version of Warhammer that's all flying sailboats and 500 storey siege towers all the time, on one hand, and people who've read all the novels and shorts and RPG backround splats on the other who like Warhammer as "basically history but the fairy tales and horror stories and things that go bump in the night are real and dealt with as serious things that happen". I refer to it as the Blackfire Pass Problem; in all the novels(any I've ever read or heard about anyway) it's a pretty typical Alpine valley, bit bigger than most IRL, obviously has goblins and stuff in it, but you know, trees and grass and windswept rocks and that sort of thing. The maps suggest there might be an active volcanic peak or two down towards not-Italy. In TWW - very much a product of the 500 storey siege tower mentality - it's VOLCANOES and BLACK OBSIDIAN CRYSTALS THE SIZE OF HOUSES and LAVA and SAND THE COLOUR OF DRIED BLOOD and 'SPLOSIONS and SKULLS *guitar solo*. Warhammer as an actual functional place as opposed to Warhammer as a heavy metal album cover vibe.
In the former case Norsca is essentially "what if the Vikings were a mix of their actual selves and also the psychotic devil-worshipping beasts the English considered them to be? Also giants and all that stuff are real". In the latter case Norsca is a ravening hellscape with a mutant behind every rock where Marauders fight six trolls on their way to breakfast - human babies, natch - then spend the whole day violently slaughtering each other in the name of the Gods, quick break for an evening repast of the flesh of your vanquished foes, then it's Sacrifice O'clock and off to bed with your new human skin duvet so you're well rested to do exactly the same thing tomorrow.
Norscans in particular seem to be in a perpetual state of being pulled between different writers' and developers' interpretation of what they are; some have basically lumped them in with all the other Marauder tribes that roam the Chaos Wastes proper (of which Kurgan are the most commonly represented) and shown them as mutanty, openly worshipping chaos gods (albeit through different names or forms) and being constantly warring/raiding with the South. Others have made them more distinct with a blend of Chaos worship and the more primal deities of other realms (Ulric, Taal etc.) and leaned more into the 'Viking' design elements; had them capable of showing up in the Empire as mercenaries, traders or adventurers fairly regularly without conflict. Not that these are mutually exclusive and can always be explained by variations in the historical status of the place (and the ebbs and flows of Chaos' influence). I just find the former a bit dull by comparison personally.
I just hope for some size differentiation. I don't want the human part of the army to be a beefy Marauder, a different kind of beefy Marauder, and a jacked Huscarl. Give me some dudes who are living in scarce resource areas, and look as such. Thralls, cultists, vagabonds... whatever. I want some lower tier guys on 25mm bases, and maybe horses, that aren't all huge.
No, not Chaos God specific, just a few units which are smaller in size to their much bigger, new cousins. I don't want the new Marauder kits to be the only option for list building in the game. Give me some smaller humans who can make javelin/axe throwers, basic infantry with axe/sword and option to take a spear, as well as a shield and perhaps light armour. Hell, would it be sacrilege to get some bowmen hunters perhaps? I just don't want the new book to be using the same model kit to make every single human unit variant. I want some variation in size between the models.
If every human marauder unit type has to be mounted on 30mm bases, it's not going to be great.
Fenriswulf wrote: I just hope for some size differentiation. I don't want the human part of the army to be a beefy Marauder, a different kind of beefy Marauder, and a jacked Huscarl. Give me some dudes who are living in scarce resource areas, and look as such. Thralls, cultists, vagabonds... whatever. I want some lower tier guys on 25mm bases, and maybe horses, that aren't all huge.
If you're open to other game line figs, the Free Folk raiders from ASOIAF by CMON might be a good idea and are usually cheap to get as figs as they're meant to be a regenerating horde in that game so the secondary market is pretty flush with extras.
chaos0xomega wrote: chaos warhounds? chaos dragons? chaos spawn? mantciores/chimera? Im not understanding what you're missing here.
Seems to be the standard disagreement between people who want/percieve a version of Warhammer that's all flying sailboats and 500 storey siege towers all the time, on one hand, and people who've read all the novels and shorts and RPG backround splats on the other who like Warhammer as "basically history but the fairy tales and horror stories and things that go bump in the night are real and dealt with as serious things that happen". I refer to it as the Blackfire Pass Problem; in all the novels(any I've ever read or heard about anyway) it's a pretty typical Alpine valley, bit bigger than most IRL, obviously has goblins and stuff in it, but you know, trees and grass and windswept rocks and that sort of thing. The maps suggest there might be an active volcanic peak or two down towards not-Italy. In TWW - very much a product of the 500 storey siege tower mentality - it's VOLCANOES and BLACK OBSIDIAN CRYSTALS THE SIZE OF HOUSES and LAVA and SAND THE COLOUR OF DRIED BLOOD and 'SPLOSIONS and SKULLS *guitar solo*. Warhammer as an actual functional place as opposed to Warhammer as a heavy metal album cover vibe.
In the former case Norsca is essentially "what if the Vikings were a mix of their actual selves and also the psychotic devil-worshipping beasts the English considered them to be? Also giants and all that stuff are real". In the latter case Norsca is a ravening hellscape with a mutant behind every rock where Marauders fight six trolls on their way to breakfast - human babies, natch - then spend the whole day violently slaughtering each other in the name of the Gods, quick break for an evening repast of the flesh of your vanquished foes, then it's Sacrifice O'clock and off to bed with your new human skin duvet so you're well rested to do exactly the same thing tomorrow.
This expresses really well how I feel about the direction of the Old World in later editions of the game. Thanks, the example of Blackfire Pass is especially good I feel. I want the Old World to be pseudohistorical 30 Years War but it really is the End of the World, not honestly Warcraft 3 inspired insane high fantasy.
And if you're thinking "But it's always had those elements!" yeah maybe, but I've always dislike those elements!
Does anybody know what happened to this new tomb king miniature?
It is not even listed anymore on the warhammer website and was released with the ToW release.
Re: The previous debate over the language about each miniature having 2 choices of head being literally each body has 2 head choices rather than there being twice as many heads as bodies, looking closely it seems clear from the pictures that each body only has one of two heads on it for both the Marauders and also for the horsemen.
Edit: Actually it looks like that isn't the case, some of the bodies are just very similar. It seems the people who made the models just really liked sticking the same two heads on mostly the same bodies. That or some heads can fit more than one body and some can't.
NightReconnaissance wrote: Re: The previous debate over the language about each miniature having 2 choices of head being literally each body has 2 head choices rather than there being twice as many heads as bodies, looking closely it seems clear from the pictures that each body only has one of two heads on it for both the Marauders and also for the horsemen.
Edit: Actually it looks like that isn't the case, some of the bodies are just very similar. It seems the people who made the models just really liked sticking the same two heads on mostly the same bodies. That or some heads can fit more than one body and some can't.
I expect anything with horns will be a pain to make fit a body it wasn't intended for, while the rest will be fairly easy to swap around but might occasionally result in an unnaturally-craned neck unless you do a bit of choppy-choppy on them.
Da Boss wrote: -snip-
This expresses really well how I feel about the direction of the Old World in later editions of the game. Thanks, the example of Blackfire Pass is especially good I feel. I want the Old World to be pseudohistorical 30 Years War but it really is the End of the World, not honestly Warcraft 3 inspired insane high fantasy.
And if you're thinking "But it's always had those elements!" yeah maybe, but I've always dislike those elements!
Yeah it's a conundrum. I don't dislike them per se, but I have always struggled to understand people who want nothing else - it always seemed crystal clear to my mind that those sorts of EPIC MEGA AWESOME *solo* things showed up during Major Historical Events or Epic Legends, like in the early part of the world's history or during "precipice of doom" moments like the Great War Against Chaos, rather than being everyday parts of the world, which was pretty much just [insert appropriate historical period or mythos for the chosen faction here] with a few anachronistic flourishes from other periods of that same nation's history and a sprinkling of thematically appropriate fantasy stuff like Beastmen in the woods or sometimes the bandits who rob you on the road happen to be Goblins instead of human blokes. Obviously that characterisation gets less accurate with the factions that are inherently more fantastical, but it always felt "right" for the human nations and their surrounds.
The thing I find a bit mad is they had a perfect opportunity to give both groups exactly what they want by going super-OTT with AoS where the setting supports gonzo stuff and really neatly tucking in the Grim & Perilous notion for TOW, but instead they keep being schizo with *both* settings, continuing to shoehorn in super high fantasy stuff as commonplace in TOW while doing stuff like the new WHQ game and some of the range refreshes in AoS. I'll never get GW I don't think, they execute a perfect quadruple backflip with 720 degree twist with a flawless landing then just as the judges reach for their "10" scorecards manage to fart, widdle themselves, and fall over sideways while standing still.
Fenriswulf wrote: No, not Chaos God specific, just a few units which are smaller in size to their much bigger, new cousins. I don't want the new Marauder kits to be the only option for list building in the game. Give me some smaller humans who can make javelin/axe throwers, basic infantry with axe/sword and option to take a spear, as well as a shield and perhaps light armour. Hell, would it be sacrilege to get some bowmen hunters perhaps? I just don't want the new book to be using the same model kit to make every single human unit variant. I want some variation in size between the models.
If every human marauder unit type has to be mounted on 30mm bases, it's not going to be great.
The return of Chaos Thugs, the old 'smallest' type of mortal Chaos follower, in the hierarchy of Thug -> marauder -> warrior -> Champion
I like the 6th edition plastic marauders. They're goofy and stupid looking, but that's what makes them good. Hopefully this new release means people will be offloading their old models for a reasonable price!
Fenriswulf wrote: No, not Chaos God specific, just a few units which are smaller in size to their much bigger, new cousins. I don't want the new Marauder kits to be the only option for list building in the game. Give me some smaller humans who can make javelin/axe throwers, basic infantry with axe/sword and option to take a spear, as well as a shield and perhaps light armour. Hell, would it be sacrilege to get some bowmen hunters perhaps? I just don't want the new book to be using the same model kit to make every single human unit variant. I want some variation in size between the models.
If every human marauder unit type has to be mounted on 30mm bases, it's not going to be great.
Profile-wise, none of the Arcane Journals did override any previous book's troop/warrior.
So, I am confident we will still have standard Marauders on 25x25, plus the Norscan Wolves of the Sea profiles (berserkers, hurcarls....) plus all the new profiles in the new book. So plenty of Marauder types to choose from!!!
Astmeister wrote: Does anybody know what happened to this new tomb king miniature?
It is not even listed anymore on the warhammer website and was released with the ToW release.
Fenriswulf wrote: No, not Chaos God specific, just a few units which are smaller in size to their much bigger, new cousins. I don't want the new Marauder kits to be the only option for list building in the game. Give me some smaller humans who can make javelin/axe throwers, basic infantry with axe/sword and option to take a spear, as well as a shield and perhaps light armour. Hell, would it be sacrilege to get some bowmen hunters perhaps? I just don't want the new book to be using the same model kit to make every single human unit variant. I want some variation in size between the models.
If every human marauder unit type has to be mounted on 30mm bases, it's not going to be great.
Profile-wise, none of the Arcane Journals did override any previous book's troop/warrior.
So, I am confident we will still have standard Marauders on 25x25, plus the Norscan Wolves of the Sea profiles (berserkers, hurcarls....) plus all the new profiles in the new book. So plenty of Marauder types to choose from!!!
Yeah, from recent posts on Reddit, it looks like I got sucked into a bit of doomerism, and that the Marauders will be staying on 25mm bases. That is, if the person doing the photoshop comparison is correct.
If this is Norsca, I am guessing they'll have their own casters, most likely Shaman, as well as leaders, who will fit in with other Marauder units, so they'll likely also be on 25mm bases, unlike the Warriors of Chaos Sorcerers, who are on 30mm. As for their leaders, I expect they will be able to take heavy armour for sure. Full Chaos plate? Unlikely.
As for other units, outside of the Marauder variant humans I'd guess that we might see more animal/creature units, so warhounds, Yeti, Mammoth, Skin Wolves, Ettin/Giants, some kind of Monstrous Cavalry of some kind (still wanting Bears, will be ok if they aren't), Ice Trolls, Frost Dragon/Wyvern, and maybe some kind of monstrous creature flying unit, as an outsider chance.
I'd love to see some unarmoured bow hunters, and definitely fingers crossed for some Valkyrie. Marauder Chariots are likely back on the menu, but I've always found them an odd inclusion for what Norsca is. I'd be ok with them staying as a Warriors of Chaos unit tbh, and getting something different instead.
Well knowing the kit will be gone soon I did pick up a box of the old Marauders. Need those sculpts for a very specific project. Though I will admit it hurt to drop that kind of money on such a mid looking kit.
His Master's Voice wrote: I'm glad I never bothered to buy any Darkoath. All the effort I'd have to put into making them not suck would feel utterly wasted right about now.
I've been trying to make "modern marauders" with a norse flair since the AoS1.0 khornate musclebros, and while I had a few individual successes that will stick around with this new batch I can confirm you were absolutely right to hold off, it is indeed a lot of work for a modest reward.
The one thing I'll be sad about is the old marauders kit had a really cool cape with a fur top and skull on it. And I used it for a lot of characters over the years.
Upscaling to get people to rebuy armies they already have as well as appeal to the new fanbase. Typical GW. I'll wait until people start trying to hock their 6th Ed. Marauders on ebay to finish my last few units.
Just Tony wrote: Upscaling to get people to rebuy armies they already have as well as appeal to the new fanbase. Typical GW. I'll wait until people start trying to hock their 6th Ed. Marauders on ebay to finish my last few units.
Mate plenty of us have been here long enough to have grey hair, some older models just aren't that great when you take of the nostalgia goggles. Not to say you *must* take them off, nostalgia is a perfectly valid motivation, but not everything GW produced back then is on the level of classics like the metal Longbeards and Ironbreakers just because it came out in the same era.
I have a slow burning chaos project for TOW with modern chaos warriors.
I really wanted some marauders with flails, but to put it politely, I have not been in a hurry to get the current plastic kit.
this release is really tempting for me.
(then again, almost every army for TOW is a tempting project for me )
Agreed, I think it is time that they allowed bows back into Chaos forces. They can keep it Norsca specific, that's fine, but so long as they're allowed to have them again.
Fenriswulf wrote: Agreed, I think it is time that they allowed bows back into Chaos forces. They can keep it Norsca specific, that's fine, but so long as they're allowed to have them again.
When did they have bows in a chaos warriors list last? Exept for a limited few beastmen units i dont recall any chaos shooty unit.
Fenriswulf wrote: Agreed, I think it is time that they allowed bows back into Chaos forces. They can keep it Norsca specific, that's fine, but so long as they're allowed to have them again.
When did they have bows in a chaos warriors list last? Exept for a limited few beastmen units i dont recall any chaos shooty unit.
Chaos Thugs used to be able to have bows. That was pretty much their niche.
Fenriswulf wrote: Agreed, I think it is time that they allowed bows back into Chaos forces. They can keep it Norsca specific, that's fine, but so long as they're allowed to have them again.
When did they have bows in a chaos warriors list last? Exept for a limited few beastmen units i dont recall any chaos shooty unit.
Chaos Thugs used to be able to have bows. That was pretty much their niche.
I think 35 years is long enough for the "Chaos don't have missile troops" thing to become an established part of their style…
Fenriswulf wrote: Agreed, I think it is time that they allowed bows back into Chaos forces. They can keep it Norsca specific, that's fine, but so long as they're allowed to have them again.
When did they have bows in a chaos warriors list last? Exept for a limited few beastmen units i dont recall any chaos shooty unit.
Chaos Thugs used to be able to have bows. That was pretty much their niche.
I think 35 years is long enough for the "Chaos don't have missile troops" thing to become an established part of their style…
And entirely irrelevant, seeing as a shootingphase beeing an important tactical part in a wargame and not beeing able to partake is an issue regardless of how you slice it.
Just Tony wrote: Upscaling to get people to rebuy armies they already have as well as appeal to the new fanbase. Typical GW. I'll wait until people start trying to hock their 6th Ed. Marauders on ebay to finish my last few units.
Mate plenty of us have been here long enough to have grey hair, some older models just aren't that great when you take of the nostalgia goggles. Not to say you *must* take them off, nostalgia is a perfectly valid motivation, but not everything GW produced back then is on the level of classics like the metal Longbeards and Ironbreakers just because it came out in the same era.
Here's the deal. Do the 6th Ed. Marauders count as Marauders in your games? Yes? Then there's no real motivation for swapping out other than "The New IPhone 78" syndrome. Hell, I argue that the old hooded 5th Ed. Wood Elves are a damn sight better than the bark faced ones from 6th, and a hell of a lot easier to rank, which is kind of the point of the game. Upscaling lead to rebasing, and we've already seen how THAT went for people.
Porsenna wrote: I think a faction with eh name *chaos* should probably give you as many options as you can imagine...
Maybe, but it's not the tack GW have taken. I think Chaos going without missile troops is distinctive and part of their identity; I don't see it changing, or being a significant downside.
It’s their traditional tactical deficiency. Absolutely rock in combat, powerful but often risky magic. Naff all ranged support.
Which is why the Hellcannon never sat right with me. Not only was it “suddenly you’ve an artillery piece”, but also “and it’s one of the best in the game at range. And is way too dangerous to rely on standard anti-artillery strategies, like Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers and Light Fliers”.
I accept I’m probably just being an Old Grump, but it felt very much like “here, have a massive crutch”.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s their traditional tactical deficiency. Absolutely rock in combat, powerful but often risky magic. Naff all ranged support.
Which is why the Hellcannon never sat right with me. Not only was it “suddenly you’ve an artillery piece”, but also “and it’s one of the best in the game at range. And is way too dangerous to rely on standard anti-artillery strategies, like Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers and Light Fliers”.
I accept I’m probably just being an Old Grump, but it felt very much like “here, have a massive crutch”.
Although it could also start eating your own army IIRC?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s their traditional tactical deficiency. Absolutely rock in combat, powerful but often risky magic. Naff all ranged support.
Which is why the Hellcannon never sat right with me. Not only was it “suddenly you’ve an artillery piece”, but also “and it’s one of the best in the game at range. And is way too dangerous to rely on standard anti-artillery strategies, like Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers and Light Fliers”.
I accept I’m probably just being an Old Grump, but it felt very much like “here, have a massive crutch”.
And we have the hung and mung and now cathay. soooo?
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: It’s their traditional tactical deficiency. Absolutely rock in combat, powerful but often risky magic. Naff all ranged support.
Which is why the Hellcannon never sat right with me. Not only was it “suddenly you’ve an artillery piece”, but also “and it’s one of the best in the game at range. And is way too dangerous to rely on standard anti-artillery strategies, like Fast Cavalry, Skirmishers and Light Fliers”.
I accept I’m probably just being an Old Grump, but it felt very much like “here, have a massive crutch”.
And we have the hung and mung and now cathay. soooo?
Also hellcannon mostly sucked overall.
I had fun with it back in the day - even when it caused all my characters to miscast.
Fenriswulf wrote: Agreed, I think it is time that they allowed bows back into Chaos forces. They can keep it Norsca specific, that's fine, but so long as they're allowed to have them again.
When did they have bows in a chaos warriors list last? Exept for a limited few beastmen units i dont recall any chaos shooty unit.
Chaos Thugs used to be able to have bows. That was pretty much their niche.
I think 35 years is long enough for the "Chaos don't have missile troops" thing to become an established part of their style…
Say it with me: "Dogs Of War"
You can even make them Chaos models to fit in theme. I intend to have a unit of Ungor bowmen to act as Halfling Bowmen in my games of 6th, and will be doing Marauder Crossbowmen as well.
Sudden thought occurred to me: they're releasing new models for Chaos when they haven't finished re-releasing all the old ones yet; where are my Forsaken?
Shakalooloo wrote: Sudden thought occurred to me: they're releasing new models for Chaos when they haven't finished re-releasing all the old ones yet; where are my Forsaken?
Shakalooloo wrote: Sudden thought occurred to me: they're releasing new models for Chaos when they haven't finished re-releasing all the old ones yet; where are my Forsaken?
I was hoping beyond hope they'd be in Old World, but now I'm pretty sure we're completely forsook.
nathan2004 wrote: What do you’ll think they revealing next week at the championships for old world? Sky is the limit now so it could literally be anything imo.
Probably another chaos model, in a perfect world it'd be Kislev so I can finally commit to an army and play the game.
Good news for scaling vs Warriors tho, it means they're smaller than that comparison photoshop
How so? I haven't seen the photo in question, but if the base was scaled to 25mm, and has to be increased in size to scale it to 30mm, the Marauder on top of it will also get bigger…
Just Tony wrote: Upscaling to get people to rebuy armies they already have as well as appeal to the new fanbase. Typical GW. I'll wait until people start trying to hock their 6th Ed. Marauders on ebay to finish my last few units.
Mate plenty of us have been here long enough to have grey hair, some older models just aren't that great when you take of the nostalgia goggles. Not to say you *must* take them off, nostalgia is a perfectly valid motivation, but not everything GW produced back then is on the level of classics like the metal Longbeards and Ironbreakers just because it came out in the same era.
Here's the deal. Do the 6th Ed. Marauders count as Marauders in your games? Yes? Then there's no real motivation for swapping out other than "The New IPhone 78" syndrome. Hell, I argue that the old hooded 5th Ed. Wood Elves are a damn sight better than the bark faced ones from 6th, and a hell of a lot easier to rank, which is kind of the point of the game. Upscaling lead to rebasing, and we've already seen how THAT went for people.
The motivation is thinking the new ones look better. If people didn't see that as important they'd just play the game with printed card chits instead of minis. Often new releases don't look *enough* better than old ones(heck these days they often look worse) to justify the time and effort of replacement, but a lot of people had no affection at all for the old potato-men and used them because they were what was available.
Heck first GW boxed set I got had a cardboard gargant in it. 100% fully "legit model for the table"
But yeah ultimately getting new stuff comes from a few drives
1) It looks better
2) The style is different and more appealing
3) It's the only thing sold now and OOP ones cost even more/are very hard to source new
4) The desire to keep building the army is still there
5) Desire to support the current army
6) Enjoy building/painting stuff not just playing etc..
IT can be any one or more of those and more reasons too. There is some old stuff that really stands the test of time well and there is some that doesn't. Heck even now there's a few models I can think of that I'd really like to see GW replace because since they've done them their talent and also style (not always the same thing) has grown and I think they'd do a way better job now.
Also note some talent isn't at the sculpting level alone; better parting and tooling means creatives can do designs today that were unthinkable 20 years ago.
Shakalooloo wrote: Sudden thought occurred to me: they're releasing new models for Chaos when they haven't finished re-releasing all the old ones yet; where are my Forsaken?
Overread wrote: Heck first GW boxed set I got had a cardboard gargant in it. 100% fully "legit model for the table"
But yeah ultimately getting new stuff comes from a few drives
1) It looks better
2) The style is different and more appealing
3) It's the only thing sold now and OOP ones cost even more/are very hard to source new
4) The desire to keep building the army is still there
5) Desire to support the current army
6) Enjoy building/painting stuff not just playing etc..
IT can be any one or more of those and more reasons too. There is some old stuff that really stands the test of time well and there is some that doesn't. Heck even now there's a few models I can think of that I'd really like to see GW replace because since they've done them their talent and also style (not always the same thing) has grown and I think they'd do a way better job now.
Also note some talent isn't at the sculpting level alone; better parting and tooling means creatives can do designs today that were unthinkable 20 years ago.
There are some gamist reasons that also come into play that gw has been exploiting more often these days.
They make a new version of a similar or same unit that has better rules, options or game play. They get you to buy it because it's not just a refresh so there is more than an aesthetic incentive.
This might also be coupled with making the original units rules less interesting or useful.
TOW hasn't reached this point yet, so the marauders weren't effected. You see this mainly with 40k marines and guard regiments getting updates with different equipment to the og (original marines or fw guard) that don't make the old ones compatible with the new unit profile.
I expect we'll start to see this further down the line when they redo say empire with province specific regiments, making it harder to use their generic spearmen et al.
Well, this kinda is annoying for those having old ones...
Not sure how i feel about that tbh.
It makes sense if they were universally upgrading all bases by 5mm. But the lack of dialogue on why they didn't do it for mauraders originally is the problem. If thed just said it was an error and they should be 30mm I think it would have kept people understanding
I am wondering if this is now going to be retconned to make changes to the existing WoC lists. If it does, it means any of the WoC characters on foot will be able to fit in any of the Marauder units. If it doesn't retcon, then I have no idea. Maybe Norscan marauders are just beefier.
Or best possible, they become 25-30mm. We've seen it on individual character mounts (Daemonic Mount, 40x60 or 50x75) and monster (Treeman, 50x50 or 75x50) models so far, and not a unit, but there is at least some precident for options in base size.
Most disappointing preview for me in a long time. More Cathay were to be expected, but personally i could not care less about them. The models are fine i guess, but not really exciting. Dare i say a bit boring even. It's also the third book about Cathay in the past four books.
Come one...there are nine armies that could use a little refresh GW. From the top of my head, Stone and river trolls, hippogryphs, war wagons and chaos dragons don't even currently have miniatures (though trolls had a MTO and are easy to find in AOS and the War Wagon had a MTO).
Enough with the balloon maniacs already. The game was fairly well balanced until Cathay showed up. What the army still lacked was cheap infantry, some more long ranged weapons apart from the rediculous Cannons and they lacked in magic.
I'm sure this boost is just what this already incredibly strong army needed.
The marauder preview on a random monday was more exciting to me than this.
Like these new minis, but there seems to be an awful lot of duplicate in the gunners. Wondering if they are resins....
But yeah, other armies really need more love, especially the non-human ones. I dont think they released a new plastic kit for any of the non human armies, bar the tk bone dragon (the reavers are only a recut i think)
Hopefully they take a break of Cathay after this. I was hoping they would do wave 1 of Cathay then Kislev to get people started with those armies, then circle back around to them both over time so people don't get fatigued.
A new Grand Cathay Army List that replaces the original* is included, alongside a new Army of Infamy
[...]
* You’ll still need Arcane Journal: Grand Cathay for the existing unit profiles and enhancements within, but Army Construction changes based on the new units in the new journal.
yeah, call me again after the 3rd wave were all rules are combined into one book again
If I was into Cathay. I’d be happy. New infantry and generic character kits are awesome to wait for and get.
But Cathay doesn’t fit in TOW for me, and I just don’t like the aesthetic, so I’m just very glad ToW keeps getting attention and whole big brand new kits!
Hope Norsca gets their mammoth one day Also, I’d be way more pumped for return of Savage orcs and new taste of goblins- of the forest variety. Dedicated Arcane journal for those two AoI maybe
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: If I was into Cathay. I’d be happy. New infantry and generic character kits are awesome to wait for and get.
But Cathay doesn’t fit in TOW for me, and I just don’t like the aesthetic, so I’m just very glad ToW keeps getting attention and whole big brand new kits!
Hope Norsca gets their mammoth one day Also, I’d be way more pumped for return of Savage orcs and new taste of goblins- of the forest variety. Dedicated Arcane journal for those two AoI maybe
I hope for three things really.
Plastic skinwolves, plastic mamooth and plastic chaos trolls, aswell as throgg but throgg is a chaos troll soo
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: If I was into Cathay. I’d be happy. New infantry and generic character kits are awesome to wait for and get.
But Cathay doesn’t fit in TOW for me, and I just don’t like the aesthetic, so I’m just very glad ToW keeps getting attention and whole big brand new kits!
Hope Norsca gets their mammoth one day Also, I’d be way more pumped for return of Savage orcs and new taste of goblins- of the forest variety. Dedicated Arcane journal for those two AoI maybe
I hope for three things really.
Plastic skinwolves, plastic mamooth and plastic chaos trolls, aswell as throgg but throgg is a chaos troll soo
Chaos ogres and dragon ogres as well please.. and I think everything chaos undecided is covered But I like resin skinwolves tbh, I fear “plastification”can cause problem quality of sculpt wise
Thargrim wrote: Hopefully they take a break of Cathay after this. I was hoping they would do wave 1 of Cathay then Kislev to get people started with those armies, then circle back around to them both over time so people don't get fatigued.
I suspect we won't be seeing any new Cathay stuff for quite a while, except maybe a dragon sibling or two. The only really significant things missing from the TW version of their roster are Longma riders, Onyx Crowmen, the Jade/Jet Lion and the War Compass.
Kislev is likely their big release for 2026, although after the marauders I'm more intrigued by what stuff comes for the other factions.
Also put me down as another that just wants Warhammer Armies books back, rather than this flood of Arcane Journals.
Cathay needed a big chunky release not just to cement GW's attitude to the game but also because all the other established armies are full roster forces. Yes they've loads of old models ripe for replacement (like the recent Chaos Marauder updates) but they are big diverse factions.
Cathay getting several chunky releases to bring them in line is a good healthy approach. We can hopefully expect the same for Kislev when its their release time.
As for the Journals they are the result of "no models no rules" coupled to GW not wanting to show their hand at what is coming in months/years time to a vibrant 3rd party market. So yeah that's what we get; you get the same in 40K, LI, AoS and other games where new chunky additions come alongside campaign or expansion books.
Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
Mr Morden wrote: Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
What are you expecting them to do?
Release all kits at once?
Not release a book until the final wave?
Release books with units they aren't going to announce for several months?
Yeah like it or not unless the entire 3rd party market gives up - GW are not going to put stuff into books that isn't coming out very soon.
Heck there's already several models from last nights preview being done as 3D designs right now; even by those who don't do mirror copies of GW models.
Mr Morden wrote: Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
What are you expecting them to do?
Release all kits at once?
Not release a book until the final wave?
Release books with units they aren't going to announce for several months?
GW's book situation is insane and I hate it. That being said, they are available as free PDFs. I haven't paid for a single TOW book, yet own all of them.
And I don't feel bad about crowing over it, not just because it's the evolved thing to do, but free PDFs keep GW in business. If they actually had a $200-$400 book paywall to truly playing their games, that demanded renewal every 1-3 years, they wouldn't have half their player base. And that's being generous.
If people want to see what they should be doing, go buy a 4th edition WFB army book, that's what an army book looks like. They shouldn't be treating their new model releases like it's breaking news, "Oh my God, Cathay peasants are here, who could have guessed, buy our latest book to read all about it!" Just a good product at a reasonable price has gotten a lot of businesses very far in this world.
P.S. Also, I think we can all agree that GW trying to keep Cathay releases close to the vest and refusing to put out rules for models that aren't out yet is rather silly given that Total War Warhammer came out three years ago and gave away literally everything. Not to mention if their approach is so successful, then why are 3rd party producers still around?
It's not about wiping out 3rd party producers or even knowing what's coming.
If they had a book with, say, peasants out 6, 7 or 8 months before you could buy them from GW then people wanting to put those things into their army have the only option of getting them somewhere else.
If there is no option in the army list then there is no need to go looking until GW are ready to release them - even if we all know peasants are coming because they were in WTW
On army books, yes it's trivially easy to pirate them or just get the rules online, but they have a customer base that buys the books. It's profitable for them to continue to release them so they aren't going to stop.
Mr Morden wrote: Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
What are you expecting them to do?
Release all kits at once?
Not release a book until the final wave?
Release books with units they aren't going to announce for several months?
Several of the Arcane journals had very little unit rules and were mostly (although still limited) lore and army compositions - these could have been combined - the journals could also have the rules for ALL relevant units in their books - there was plenty of room and this would reduce the need for carrying a book for one profile etc
I think its nice to see Cathay expanded.
Great models all around.
I have no idea how popular they are, but sounds like a good idea to ad some basic infantry for optional armybuilds.
Mr Morden wrote: Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
What are you expecting them to do?
Release all kits at once?
Not release a book until the final wave?
Release books with units they aren't going to announce for several months?
Any of the above would be good.
One army, one book, at the very least, whichever way they choose to go with the models.
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Overread wrote: Yeah like it or not unless the entire 3rd party market gives up - GW are not going to put stuff into books that isn't coming out very soon.
Heck there's already several models from last nights preview being done as 3D designs right now; even by those who don't do mirror copies of GW models.
It doesn't really matter if they have the minis ready or not, nowadays there will be STL proxies either way, on day 1. Day -X, really.
I think the previews were great for fantasy miniatures in general. There are a couple of extra units I'd like to see added to Cathay to round out the roster but this set of minis does a good job of bulking out the force.
I'm surprised at the direction of travel for the narrative. You would have hoped the Miao Ying would have done more to fulfil her duty to protect the bastion before disappearing half way around the world to rectify what she saw as the elves failing to do 'their job'. I'm happy that we're getting a few more flaws in the visage of perfection that is the portrayal of Cathay (save for the Shamiya Incident). I'm getting the feeling that although there's a tendency in fantasy to credit the elves with arrogance, we're seeing it distilled and made manifest in the children of Dragon Emperor.
I'm not sure I want or need most the models from this second wave, except the astromancers, but we'll see what the ranged units and peasants add to the dynamic of the army. Maybe they'll be a nice way to add some shooting that isn't OTT in the way that balloons can be.
Personally I'm more excited about the other fantasy models previewed which are all billed as being for the Aos range. I'm really hoping that the Sloven Knights and Rotswords fit on appropriate square-ish bases so that they can be used as Nurgle marked Warriors of Chaos units. Pop them in a force with the new marauders or the Pox Wretches from the Warhammer Quest (which they note will be getting a separate release) set and you've got one fantastic looking army.
Mr Morden wrote: Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
What are you expecting them to do?
Release all kits at once?
Not release a book until the final wave?
Release books with units they aren't going to announce for several months?
Any of the above would be good.
One army, one book, at the very least, whichever way they choose to go with the models.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: Yeah like it or not unless the entire 3rd party market gives up - GW are not going to put stuff into books that isn't coming out very soon.
Heck there's already several models from last nights preview being done as 3D designs right now; even by those who don't do mirror copies of GW models.
It doesn't really matter if they have the minis ready or not, nowadays there will be STL proxies either way, on day 1. Day -X, really.
And people still buy the plastics.
They won't release above a certain number of kits at once because it will exceed what the average player will order in one go and they will make fewer sales.
They won't release miniatures without a book because people won't buy the miniatures without rules and they'll make fewer sales.
They won't release a book with units in that they don't currently have for sale because people will be left with only 3rd party options and will have bought them before the official ones are released, so they'd make fewer sales.
They won't pack the rules into every book because people will hate buying repeat material more than they even hate buying army lists across books.
We're left with what they do, which is annoying for players who just want the army list to play the game, but they will obviously do what they need to in order to sell as much as they can.
Lathe Biosas wrote: Are their any new novels featuring Cathay due out any time soon?
Sadly only one novel for Old World so far - no signs of any more
That really sucks.
I've been rereading a bunch of the old Warhammer novels lately like the C.L. Warner Witchhunter novels and was really hoping to read some stuff on Cathay.
Mr Morden wrote: Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
What are you expecting them to do?
Release all kits at once?
Not release a book until the final wave?
Release books with units they aren't going to announce for several months?
Also worth remembering that every Journal has units for which they are never making models for and they vague ideas for representing and don't even both to show conversions with their own models
Mr Morden wrote: Models are awesome but the splitting up of the rules across small and often half full paged Journals is not good at all - How many books will you need for a Cathay army now...
What are you expecting them to do?
Release all kits at once?
Not release a book until the final wave?
Release books with units they aren't going to announce for several months?
Also worth remembering that every Journal has units for which they are never making models for and they vague ideas for representing and don't even both to show conversions with their own models
Having units in the roster that don’t have a dedicated kit is actually a good thing though. Finally no model = no rules policy has fallen off at least in one of the systems (that I know of)
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Having units in the roster that don’t have a dedicated kit is actually a good thing though. Finally no model = no rules policy has fallen off at least in one of the systems (that I know of)
So what you're saying is that they aren't actually splitting the lists into journals just for the "no model, no rules" isn't it. Which just leaves the "mo' money" option.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Having units in the roster that don’t have a dedicated kit is actually a good thing though. Finally no model = no rules policy has fallen off at least in one of the systems (that I know of)
So what you're saying is that they aren't actually splitting the lists into journals just for the "no model, no rules" isn't it. Which just leaves the "mo' money" option.
Not what I said, but you arrived to the point all by yourself More money. Drip feeding excitement, to make the game closer to game as a service (in a sense that the company doesn’t want to have lull periods for a game they wish to keep expanding upon).
If it was 1 army at a time before, updates once per edition once in 4 years with a little extra sprinkled in, now the updates are more rapid.
I think 2 books for Cathay would have been better, like every other army. Initial launch, finish the spread a few month later to finish and diversify the roster.
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Vorian wrote: I think the only entry without a model is Kiknik Toofsnatcha?
Perhaps Droggz da Sunchompa was intended to be him before the internal split, perhaps not. Don't think we'll ever know why he didn't get a model.
Probably usurped by the AoS version.
There are entries that have “cousins” jn AoS (all types of squigs for example)
Beastmen AJ has warped gors,
Wood elves have lumberjacks
I think most of the armies don’t have close to all the combos of Character X Mount
Or mounts at all - Chaos dragon. Manticore
Chaos trolls, ogres, ect
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: Having units in the roster that don’t have a dedicated kit is actually a good thing though. Finally no model = no rules policy has fallen off at least in one of the systems (that I know of)
So what you're saying is that they aren't actually splitting the lists into journals just for the "no model, no rules" isn't it. Which just leaves the "mo' money" option.
It’s more money yes, but from an ‘optimising the sale of the miniatures’ angle, not a ‘money on books’ angle.
The units in AJs with no models are ones they expect you to convert, not ones they ever intend to sell models for.
The new Cathay stuff they all intend to make models for, so we’re not getting rules until the models are ready and those will be fed out in batches so as not to overwhelm either buyers or production capacity (noting they’ve a number of ranges to cover.
But they have where to buy the models in the book, they (presumably) will never release a kit for them so there are no lost sales to 3rd parties that they wouldn't have lost anyway.
It is not the same as putting an entry into a book for models they will release in 6 months. That is a guaranteed way to needlessly bleed sales for your future release.
Not impossible but I’d be more concerned with their leadership. Cathay is already a point down on most Empire bods, but they make up for it with the Lanterns acting as secondary generals. But that does probably mean you really don’t want your levies out on their own.
Mr_Rose wrote: Not impossible but I’d be more concerned with their leadership. Cathay is already a point down on most Empire bods, but they make up for it with the Lanterns acting as secondary generals. But that does probably mean you really don’t want your levies out on their own.
Finally a use for the Golden Lion magic item introduced in the second book? (re-rolls for Panic, Rally, etc.) &
Please, this is going to be too expensive for me. I already have 15 of those archers and most of the command groups...but the Captains and the Halberds I need to complete my collection!
Well at least it wasn't the old Reikguard models. Then I would most definitely be bankrupt.
It wrinkles my brain that any point, GWs CEO can just go: "Let the forges of Nottingrad run hot" and they melting pewter in the bowels of HQ again at no notice.
They likely still have the machines. When you’re doing a strictly limited run on a strictly limited selection of models, and not constantly maintaining a large range of different models?
Yep plus those tend to have 3-6 months delivery estimation windows. So even if they get huge orders they typically have enough time to cast them all.
The only real risk is a mould breaking before time and without enough orders after to justify making another one or if the master was already lost/damaged. Happened with the Morathi on Pegasus recast.
And yeah GW likely held onto all the casting machines so they can just spin these up again. Heck considering how volatile the market on materials is chances are its best for them to just hold onto the gear long term. You never know one government group could go hard on banning plastics
Gallahad wrote: Are we thinking the Chaos Mauraders reinforcement box will come out in December? Or after the new year?
I need to save up!
We're going to probably get Darkwater for pre-order in two weeks, and then we're into December stuff, generally the slower part of the release cycle. I'm guessing (and also hoping!) that it's going to be 2026.
Hellebore wrote: It's interesting how much of these MTOs are 4th or 5th ed, bypassing anything from 6th onwards.
I wonder if their metrics indicate their fanbase are so old that they have nostalgia for the 90s era models, rather than the 2000s?
Well, some of those 6th Ed models are just on general release (Brets, Tomb Kings). It might depend on molds available (perhaps the older ones were just stashed in a cupboard somewhere, while the 6th Ed ones got binned?). Or that the older ones have enough of a distinct aesthetic, while the 6th and 7th are just deemed to close to not bother (for the Empire Greatswords for example).
The newest empire metal greatswords from 6th are amazing. I just bought another 5 from ebay.
I also don't understand why they don't release them. Probably because they would show that they actually look much better than the recent plastic kit.
Same for four dark elves executioners and others.
However most of the 6th plastic releases are not good. Imho they can skip them.
Cant say I enjoy the look of older/metal Empire guys, and dont have the nostalgia for that range.
But I really like all the 6th edtion plastics for Empire
Blood Bowl immediately followed by Warhammer Quest with mortgage payment worth of Empire Oldhammer metals in-between? Followed by Norse Marauders for Christmas?
That ain't right.
Fortunately I got all my Oldhammer metals after Age of Sigmar came out ten years ago. I like to think the Warhammer Gods were rewarding me for my dedication by letting me get ahold of all that stuff for a quarter of the price you now have to pay Games Workshop to get them to make new ones for you. I sincerely hope even the stans have given up the "this is just what costs them" arguments to the far more sane "they love money and price accordingly" arguments.
I will get all of those Empire-models. Love everything from 4:th edition and I'm hoping all of these MTOs are super succesful so GW keep doing them. My dream is for a Halfling MTO but since they are not in the new army list I fear it will remain a dream.
Fayric wrote: Cant say I enjoy the look of older/metal Empire guys, and dont have the nostalgia for that range.
But I really like all the 6th edtion plastics for Empire
Dawnbringer wrote: Where is my 5th Ed Brets MTO damn it. Still may grab some of the old Empire stuff though.
They did a bunch of the peasants a few months ago (which I'm sure you're already aware of) but the knights would certainly be appreciated. Infinitely better than the blocky Lego knights from 6th.
I would go bankrupt if they re-released those old swordsmen/halberdiers sprues.
I've found a number of really great 3d print options that I like even better than the old state troops (as awesome as that box was). Check out Reptilian Overlords stuff. They are really really great. Not plastic, but the sculpting, poses, and detail are much better in my opinion.
I have a feeling that it's because the 2000's is the era of more and more units becoming plastic and it's easier for them to free up the metal casting machines than the plastic ones for MTOs.
I would go bankrupt if they re-released those old swordsmen/halberdiers sprues.
I've found a number of really great 3d print options that I like even better than the old state troops (as awesome as that box was). Check out Reptilian Overlords stuff. They are really really great. Not plastic, but the sculpting, poses, and detail are much better in my opinion.
I'm debating hard with myself about getting the MTO empire stuff or not
On one hand, I have a large enough army with lots of troops (the cool 6th edition plastic). On the other hands, sexy 4th edition metal models are my jam, and I really like the look of those!
Ideally it would be one of everything, plus extra Halberdiers set for a full unit! Add to that a friend of mine gave me his WH+ voucher (probably like 10$), so a little extra incentive to use it there!
On a unrelated note, I really like the red and yellow they got on them! Look really lively!
Dawnbringer wrote: Where is my 5th Ed Brets MTO damn it. Still may grab some of the old Empire stuff though.
To clarify, they did do MTO for the infantry (and squires / yeomen are in the current range.) What I want to see is all the old metal knights. Trying to track down all 13(?) variations of Questing Knight the Perry's did back in the day is impossible.
Usually they will do one or two MTO weeks at some point during the holiday period, as it allows them maintain cash flows through the holidays despite reduced staffing and throughput capacity, I would expect it after American thanksgiving before new years.
Dang. It’s gonna be an expensive hit in 2 weeks for me. I play warriors and empire both. And I want that map for my gaming room I eventually have one day.
DaveC wrote: The Marauders set is €140(€10 less than most other army sets)
So you're getting at least half a unit free. Possibly a full one, assuming the new Marauders come in 20 man boxes like the Cathay infantry.
Still quite expensive for what doesn't ammount to that much in points and also compared to other army sets has not 1 centerpiece.
Unless the box won't get local retailer discount for some reason, it's still going to cost me less than buying the kits individually, which I'd do anyway.
To reiterate, I'm assuming these will follow Cathay pricing. If instead the Horsemen are priced like Silver Helms and the Marauders are 30 to a box, then yeah, there would be no real discount to speak of, but we'd all be better off in the long run.
Well this is coming out earlier than I thought. I'm just glad I held off on other purchases I was planning on making. I can make a nice detachment with those Halberdiers.
I'm impressed again with the kit. I don't think I've been impressed so much with a kit (at least until I see the sprues) since the Space Wolf plastics came out back in 2008ish. I still have lots of left over bits that I use from those and hope that will be the case with these as well in terms of extra bits and variety.
nathan2004 wrote: I learned today that the Kurgan and Norse are separate and distinct from each other. I thought the terms were interchangeable till today lol.
And I learned today that the Kurgan isn't just the villain in the only Highlander feature film.
Just finished reading today’s almanack and they made mention of warrior lodges embedded in the various tribes to the north. This is very analogous to Horus Heresy and how chaos spread throughout the legions in 30k.
That was a fun article. Gave me some good nostalgia.
I'm very excited to get a nice boost to the bits box with all the extra weapons and heads. If I could afford it I would double up on the Maurader boxes.
nathan2004 wrote: Just finished reading today’s almanack and they made mention of warrior lodges embedded in the various tribes to the north. This is very analogous to Horus Heresy and how chaos spread throughout the legions in 30k.
Did this just fly over my head in the old lore?
Warrior lodges are just a sort of thing that many real-life tribal civilisations have/had. So it's not so much a Chaos link, as just a nod to archaic warrior brotherhood.
nathan2004 wrote: Just finished reading today’s almanack and they made mention of warrior lodges embedded in the various tribes to the north. This is very analogous to Horus Heresy and how chaos spread throughout the legions in 30k.
Did this just fly over my head in the old lore?
Warrior lodges are just a sort of thing that many real-life tribal civilisations have/had. So it's not so much a Chaos link, as just a nod to archaic warrior brotherhood.
I cant help thinking of marauders having secret lodge meetings wearing the water buffalo hats that the gentlemens club in Flinstones sport.
nathan2004 wrote: Just finished reading today’s almanack and they made mention of warrior lodges embedded in the various tribes to the north. This is very analogous to Horus Heresy and how chaos spread throughout the legions in 30k.
Did this just fly over my head in the old lore?
Warrior lodges are just a sort of thing that many real-life tribal civilisations have/had. So it's not so much a Chaos link, as just a nod to archaic warrior brotherhood.
Wich is what I assumed they were referencing in the HH lore.
nathan2004 wrote: Just finished reading today’s almanack and they made mention of warrior lodges embedded in the various tribes to the north. This is very analogous to Horus Heresy and how chaos spread throughout the legions in 30k.
Did this just fly over my head in the old lore?
Warrior lodges are just a sort of thing that many real-life tribal civilisations have/had. So it's not so much a Chaos link, as just a nod to archaic warrior brotherhood.
I cant help thinking of marauders having secret lodge meetings wearing the water buffalo hats that the gentlemens club in Flinstones sport.
World Eaters head gear suddenly seems a lot more impressive now that this is my head canon.
Mr Morden wrote: Be even cooler if they had those long ships as scenery
Given that the ships feature both in art and in photos - and has been given a name (wolfships) I am 100% certain they will soon be available for purchase.
Especially since I have built my own…
Mr Morden wrote: Be even cooler if they had those long ships as scenery
Given that the ships feature both in art and in photos - and has been given a name (wolfships) I am 100% certain they will soon be available for purchase.
Especially since I have built my own…
I suppose I just state the obvious, but Wolf Ships sounds like a mix of viking Dragon Ships and the term Sea Wolves as a type of pirates or sea raiders (that probably is the thought behind "Space Wolves" as a concept).
Fayric wrote: I suppose I just state the obvious, but Wolf Ships sounds like a mix of viking Dragon Ships and the term Sea Wolves as a type of pirates or sea raiders (that probably is the thought behind "Space Wolves" as a concept).
I mean, the second one is why their AoI is Wolves of the Sea.
I mean considering the amount of people outside Warhammer that would buy a sweet Norse ship for their tabletop games it seems like a cracker of an idea.
Olthannon wrote: I mean considering the amount of people outside Warhammer that would buy a sweet Norse ship for their tabletop games it seems like a cracker of an idea.
Olthannon wrote: I mean considering the amount of people outside Warhammer that would buy a sweet Norse ship for their tabletop games it seems like a cracker of an idea.
I have a couple of the revell ones for my Dogs of war/Albion army. Great kits. Probably a little small if you want to use them for the new chaos models, but perfectly fine for terrain, especially if you can find them discounted. Perfect size for more 'realistic' size models. My Albion models are a mix of historical and other models, with some oldhammer and they are perfect.
Probably will want to take the angel off the front and replace it with a skull if you're going for the Empire Greatship look. And a couple of skull flags. But you could do worse!
New article popped up today.
Am I I reading the thing right? I can no longer give my marauders a mark of chaos, even for the armies outside of this particular AJ?
This kinda sucks, if I got it right.
It would be cool to have options… some marauders - mark of chaos, others - mark of the cult. But.. I got a Wolves of the Sea list planned with a variety of marks in mind and I’m annoyed. Kinda feel for the people who already have armies
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: New article popped up today.
Am I I reading the thing right? I can no longer give my marauders a mark of chaos, even for the armies outside of this particular AJ?
This kinda sucks, if I got it right.
It would be cool to have options… some marauders - mark of chaos, others - mark of the cult. But.. I got a Wolves of the Sea list planned with a variety of marks in mind and I’m annoyed. Kinda feel for the people who already have armies
The cults follow the 4 gods, though, so it's quite superficial I'd say and probably something to differentiate different rules. So, the mark of the carrion crow IS the mark if you want to follow nurgle, but since it doesn't have the same rules as the mark of nurgle (and fluff blabla) it has its own name. But there's nothing stopping you from going full monogod if you want to.
SnotlingPimpWagon wrote: New article popped up today.
Am I I reading the thing right? I can no longer give my marauders a mark of chaos, even for the armies outside of this particular AJ?
This kinda sucks, if I got it right.
It would be cool to have options… some marauders - mark of chaos, others - mark of the cult. But.. I got a Wolves of the Sea list planned with a variety of marks in mind and I’m annoyed. Kinda feel for the people who already have armies
The cults follow the 4 gods, though, so it's quite superficial I'd say and probably something to differentiate different rules. So, the mark of the carrion crow IS the mark if you want to follow nurgle, but since it doesn't have the same rules as the mark of nurgle (and fluff blabla) it has its own name. But there's nothing stopping you from going full monogod if you want to.
I’m a bit more upset about not being able to give the proper chaos marks any more. monogods is still possible, I’m not disputing that
I guess they were concerned with the tzeentch sorcerer marauder bunkers. In time, I can see the power of chaos returning and marauders getting the option again.
nathan2004 wrote: I guess they were concerned with the tzeentch sorcerer marauder bunkers. In time, I can see the power of chaos returning and marauders getting the option again.
I wonder if that's an option in the Path to Glory rules for Marauders? Gain enough clout and convert your cult into a full mark.
Olthannon wrote: I mean considering the amount of people outside Warhammer that would buy a sweet Norse ship for their tabletop games it seems like a cracker of an idea.
So, the book just has the two Marauder units in it, and no others, so it looks like I won't be able to make a focused Norsca list from it. And the upgrade in base size for their stat line is not great. Disappointing.
I bought the Revell Longship in anticipation. It's neat. Just needs a bit of Chaosifying and it'll be good.
Eh, it's more Warriors of Chaos than pure Norsca. I was looking forward to having Berserkers, Mammoths, different varieties of foot troops and a bunch of different monster types. I guess if that comes about, that's for far further down the line.
There is a very cheap narrow long boat on Temu (search “resin dragon boat incense holder” there is usually a Viking style boat with shields and a Chinese type with scales and fishtail) which works well with 28mm figures, but may be too small for these new big fellas.
Fenriswulf wrote: So, the book just has the two Marauder units in it, and no others, so it looks like I won't be able to make a focused Norsca list from it. And the upgrade in base size for their stat line is not great. Disappointing.
I bought the Revell Longship in anticipation. It's neat. Just needs a bit of Chaosifying and it'll be good.
Given that the book also requires the use of the previous Chaos arcane journal on top of the original Ravening Hordes, hopefully it won't be too long before we get some proper 'Armies of The Old World: Warriors of Chaos' book compiling them all together. Maybe once second edition rolls around.
angryboy2k wrote:Does anyone have the GBP or CAD prices for this box? I've seen the EUR price but that's it...
€140 = £116, CAD$220, USD$175 (in GW exchange rates based on the Xiphon Pattern Interceptor)
Astmeister wrote:Are the prices for the Made to Order 4th edition empire already known?
MTO prices aren't known until they go up on the GW website for order they don't release them on the weekly price lists as they are direct only and aren't a general order item.
Holy scale creep Batman!
If they had the stat line to reflect it, that'd be fine. But these are just humongous now, with no appreciable gain in usefulness.
The new Marauders are more Viking and the Darkoath more Conan. Though honestly I fully expect to blend them up too. Even if it just means having one unit of Vikings in the army.
It's little different to how AoS had all those Warcy Warbands with different styles running around. Chaos can easily support the notion of different clans/groups coming together and having very different styles whilst fighting under the same banner (for a time)
Fenriswulf wrote: Holy scale creep Batman!
If they had the stat line to reflect it, that'd be fine. But these are just humongous now, with no appreciable gain in usefulness.
The infantry looks quite decent next to a Warrior! I'm tempted to pick a box later on just to add some Marauder to my list (currently have none). Warhammer horses continue to be ridiculously big though.
So GW sent me the Chaos Marauders Army Reinforcement set and here are the new Marauders on their 30 mm bases next to other Old World and AoS Chaos models from our collection. I also wrote an in-depth review with HQ sprue images and a build guide over on my blog: https://taleofpainters.com/2025/11/review-chaos-marauders-army-reinforcement-set/
What do you think? I feel the new Marauders line up very well with Chaos Warriors and other recent models like Jade Warriors.
Size looks good. Warriors still have some height over the new marauders and look more bulky.
And ditching ponies and giving the horsemen… horses is a good change.
Astmeister wrote: I just spend 352 euro on made to order empire and regret nothing
I only have some regrets on the empire as the LotRs MTO was today also. The price increase on the middle earth one was insane, but I'm getting very close to "completing" my collection, so seemed silly to miss out at this point.
Dang the marauder box is already sold out online in the US. Well fingers crossed a local store has 2 of them for me. I also don’t see the empire stuff available for preorder unless I’m blind.
Yeah, ouch, those were more expensive than I'd hoped. I decided to just get the halberdiers and their command section and skipped the handgunners and archers.
In case someone here is interested in Warhammer, the base version of Vermintide 2 is free on steam this weekend just in case there is a fan of the Old World hanging out in this thread.
Skywave wrote: Dang. I got one each of the Empire Made to order, and doubled down on the Halberdiers for good measure. Pricy weekend!
Very pricey! Just as a FYI sort of thing- This is pretty much what I ordered too, but for the archers I have a few plastics from the old battlemasters range. I think one unit of archers from the MTO + one command set, plus about 3 plastics should bring the unit up to a nice round 16 models. You can usually pick up the battlemasters pretty cheap from ebay if you keep your eye out and they should mix in with the unit without too much notice.
Keeps the MTO unit a more reasonable price without having to double up on extra models there.
Its even worth keeping an eye out for a full box of battlemasters on the cheap as the models help fill out units for all sorts of old world bits.
Skywave wrote: Dang. I got one each of the Empire Made to order, and doubled down on the Halberdiers for good measure. Pricy weekend!
Very pricey! Just as a FYI sort of thing- This is pretty much what I ordered too, but for the archers I have a few plastics from the old battlemasters range. I think one unit of archers from the MTO + one command set, plus about 3 plastics should bring the unit up to a nice round 16 models. You can usually pick up the battlemasters pretty cheap from ebay if you keep your eye out and they should mix in with the unit without too much notice.
Keeps the MTO unit a more reasonable price without having to double up on extra models there.
Its even worth keeping an eye out for a full box of battlemasters on the cheap as the models help fill out units for all sorts of old world bits.
I was planning on running the archer just as-is with 10 models with no commands, but that's a good idea! I have plenty of 6th edition Handgunners to pad the metal handgunner in case I need to, but i could definitely get some of those archer if i need to (I have all the Battlemaster figs stashed somewhere). They might be smaller though, those figs are a tad smaller than even old Warhammer if I remember right (maybe more like 25mm scale).
Shakalooloo wrote: Regarding the MTO, how does GW think that an infantry command of 3 is equivalent to 5 captains in price?
It isn't but it might reflect something like the Captains being on a single casting whilst the Command might be two or three separate castings.
So the Command might require more work and more casting runs to get a complete set of 3 whilst the Captains might just require one casting run and you've got a full set (or multiple full sets)
Astmeister wrote: I would not play more than 10 archers anyway. They are good as chaff and might ping a damage here or there. Besides that I don't see the point.
I am currently running them as a detachment of 5.
Archers can get scout so can be positioned in much more advantageous positions than the other missile troops.
In 6th you could run them in skirmish formation which made them more efficient at 10 man as everyone could shoot. They made great detachments at that strength with a 2x5 Halberdier detachment as a countercharger with a Spearmen unit as the parent.
I already have 15 of those Metal archers. I used to run them as Huntsmen back in 7th edition when they lost their Longbows and had to be taken in units of 10.
Let me tell ya, it was shocking how useful they were. They were cheap enough that I didn't care if they died, but annoying enough that my opponent couldn't really afford to ignore them.
Just Tony wrote: In 6th you could run them in skirmish formation which made them more efficient at 10 man as everyone could shoot. They made great detachments at that strength with a 2x5 Halberdier detachment as a countercharger with a Spearmen unit as the parent.
Magnificent! I recently assembled and painted two regiments of the “new” Empire plastic troops, and while I like them those old metal sculpts you just got look great all ranked up! The heft must feel so satisfying.
Dang I'm still waiting for my Bretonnian Made to Order guys (Probably for the best, I'm still painting up the big blocks of guys that will be their hosts for when they arrive)
You are all terrible people and have FORCED, forced me I say, to put in a last minute order for 20 Halberdiers, the command and the Captains. The metals are so much better than the current state troop halberdiers. I am assuming the price and time of year has impacted sales on these so hopefully I am not waiting too long on my order.
Am I crazy or do those halberdiers look better on larger size bases.
No, it's really refreshing to see them given room to breathe. Back in the day, I never realised just how cramped lots of the WFB models were in their blocks.
Toxicrine and the Hordes Skorn Mammoth Titan still hold joint place for the worst offenders though. Both have these huge sweeping parts that very heavily overhang the model base and at the very front no less.
You know the part that you have to put into base to base contact for close combat.
For one it was a pair of tentacles; for the other a pair of massive tusks.
)
