I've yet to read the new book myself but am beginning to get an idea of the changes.

I'd like to hear speculation from those who know more and know nids (possibly also from opponents' point of view), what is going to change??

AFAIK Montstrous creatures can run too. Is this true? And what does running mean word to word?
Are we now going to see more hth mutations on things like fexes?
What does true Los mean in your opinion to Nids? Atleast before buildings and terrain evolve to v5. to give vehicles and bg things some Los blocking cover.

Do you think Tyranids get stronger or weaker?


I know we are about to find out in gaming, but it is fun to speculate and I've yet to get a game with my "Mechzilla" TWAR and still have the option to tweaking what I build to suit v5.

I think being able to run a screen of gaunts in front of your 'stealers and warriors could change things considerably.

Add in the boost to feeder tendrils for 'stealers and you're looking at a marked increase in their effectiveness.

I might even be tempted to take the broodlord now that he can run.

what exactly is the boost for feeder tendrils?

Preferred enemy is changed from the useless 'always hit on a 3+' to allowing you to reroll your hits. Which means you'll be hitting with 8/9 attacks.

I'm more keen on the gaunt screen, though.

I'd like to hear speculation from those who know more and know nids (possibly also from opponents' point of view), what is going to change??

My early thoughts

AFAIK Montstrous creatures can run too. Is this true? And what does running mean word to word?

Running is much like fleet is now (give up shooting to run 1D6" in the shooting phase), except you cannot assault if you run. So now fleet rules is basically to allow one to assault after run.

Are we now going to see more hth mutations on things like fexes?

It makes close combat fexes more viable. So does the removal of escalation and recon style missions from the basic missions (granted there is a chance of ol school reserves -- eg 1 HQ and 2 troops deploy, all else in reserves)

However I still see shooty carnifexes as better for much the same reasons as now. At least close combat ones have are a bit more viable.

Also note some mutations have no known benefit (thorny back) and others get better (Bio-plasma won't keep the carnifex from using the rest of his attacks on the charge due to model removal; tail upgrades more likely to be usable due to charge reactions).

What does true Los mean in your opinion to Nids? Atleast before buildings and terrain evolve to v5. to give vehicles and bg things some Los blocking cover.

I think it hurts stuff like stealer shock cause no LOS is better then 4+ save. However I think standard horde nids get better since it as pretty hard to hide with that many models anyways. MCs, it is probably better overall, mostly cause 4+ cover is much easier to get (even woods provides 4+). Just watch putting gunfexes in ruins though cause true LOS may keep them from shooting.

Do you think Tyranids get stronger or weaker?

I think the power of the various builds becomes more flattened. eg Nidzilla is not so much better then other builds, although the way close combat works I think nidzilla is still strongest. So in that sense I think they get a bit stronger cause so much more of the army is viable.

I'm still wrapping my brain around the subtler points and strategies for winning games though. It does seem to me that a shooty army will have a much easier time dealing with nids overall. 4+ saves help the warriors and stealers a bit when behind the hordes but through the course of a game it may be hard to have the units to hold objectives, the synapse to keep gaunst holding objectives and still gut the opponent in close combat (or via nidzilla style shooting). I am hoping to get some 5ed games in the next few weeks before forming any real conclusions.

Hope that helps and perhaps the more notable nid players will pipe up.

Well what do you think about Genestealers in v5?
with rending being watered down will they still be as good?
I equipe my Warriors with Scything talons & rending claws. Once again with rending changing, I might have to go with a long range weapon (which might help in holding objectives with my gaunts).
What do you all think, is rending even still worth having?

Nid zilla actually took a decent hit. With the change in the way vehicle damage works, the venom cannon is now extreamly bad at anti tank work (and most of the other shooting weapons were never very good at it to begin with). Specificaly, the damage chart got changed so that vehicles are destroyed on a 5 or a 6. However, all glancing hits roll on the chart at a -2. Since the venom cannon can only ever glance, it can never destroy a vehicle in a single shot. It is forced to to it via multiple immobalized/weapon destroyed results. And while things like devourers and what not are decent light tank busters at short range, nids now have almost no viable long ranged anti tank fire power. Warp blast is about the only thing left.

Killing tanks in hand to hand is probably a bump. Tanks are just as difficult / easy to hit as they were before (maybe a bit easier since the rules favor static tanks now), however, rending only adds 1d3 (not 1d6) extra penetration on vehicles when you roll a 6 for armor penetration. On the flip side though, in hand to hand, you always hit the rear armor. The net effect is that most tanks will probably be about as hard to damage as before with the exceptions of the land raider and the monolith. Both of those tanks will be well neigh invincible to most of the nid army. You'll need to get a monsterous creature into hand to hand with one of those in order to bring it down.

Some rambling thoughts:

I like leaping Warriors in 5th. People forget this, but leaping Warriors were the $hit back in early 4th, when they were classified as Beasts. Running isn't quite Fleet, but the 12" assault means the Fleet roll isn't as necessary in the assaulting turn. Warriors take a little hit in that rending's getting downpowered, although the adrenal gland +1 WS will help out a bit there. And one less PF attack back is a good thing for Warriors.

If Warriors are better, hordes will be better. And plentiful cover saves will be good for Gaunts. I actually don't think hordes were as bad as people made them out to be in 4th, but I think they'll be better in 5th.

Genestealers have the feeder tentacles option to help counter the rending nerf. With 4+ cover saves being plentiful, I still like Genestealers a lot.

I think heavy Gunfexes will still have their place with the new glancing rules. All VCs mostly had to do in 4th is shake tanks, and they'll still do that. I'm very much in the wait-and-see camp on assaulty Carnifexes. They'll be better, but I don't know if their assault ability is worth more than their guns would be in the context of a Tyranid army.

I still don't have my head wrapped around how Tyranids are going to handle the missions. Tyranid Troops aren't particularly good objective grabbers. While a lurking Gaunt brood will be hard to budge, it's not performing its proper role and isn't scoring unless synapse is nearby. And the best synapse for that task is a Zoey, which I *think* will get hurt by kill points, if I understand the rule properly. Right now my theory is to ignore objective grabbing and concentrate on wiping out their Troops and contesting everyplace I can. Kill points do a pretty good job of killing off Raveners, too.

Phoenix wrote:Nid zilla actually took a decent hit. With the change in the way vehicle damage works, the venom cannon is now extreamly bad at anti tank work (and most of the other shooting weapons were never very good at it to begin with). Specificaly, the damage chart got changed so that vehicles are destroyed on a 5 or a 6. However, all glancing hits roll on the chart at a -2. Since the venom cannon can only ever glance, it can never destroy a vehicle in a single shot. It is forced to to it via multiple immobalized/weapon destroyed results. And while things like devourers and what not are decent light tank busters at short range, nids now have almost no viable long ranged anti tank fire power. Warp blast is about the only thing left.

Killing tanks in hand to hand is probably a bump. Tanks are just as difficult / easy to hit as they were before (maybe a bit easier since the rules favor static tanks now), however, rending only adds 1d3 (not 1d6) extra penetration on vehicles when you roll a 6 for armor penetration. On the flip side though, in hand to hand, you always hit the rear armor. The net effect is that most tanks will probably be about as hard to damage as before with the exceptions of the land raider and the monolith. Both of those tanks will be well neigh invincible to most of the nid army. You'll need to get a monsterous creature into hand to hand with one of those in order to bring it down.

I think the gameplan with tanks will be to keep shaking them with VCs and ignore them until you get close enough to pop 'em in h2h. Like you said, tanks are becoming static pillboxes. And if that pillbox isn't shooting, it's Advantage Tyranids.

Regarding MCs, I think my winged Tyrant will stay in the foam for a while. It doesn't have a friendly LOS profile at all. I think the Tyrant of 5th will be on foot and won't leave home without a full complement of Tyrant Guards.

Darth Balls wrote:I equipe my Warriors with Scything talons & rending claws. Once again with rending changing, I might have to go with a long range weapon (which might help in holding objectives with my gaunts).
What do you all think, is rending even still worth having?

Make sure they're leaping, and I think they'll be fine. The WS boost is an option to consider now.

I dunno, it seems to me that the new combat resolution will have quite the negative impact on Nids. Currently a unit of Rippers or Gaunts can roll up on some infantry, lose by 7 or 8 and shrug it off. With the new combat res that'll cost them a near-doubling of wounds. Further, the counter-attack style combat rollin will make ordinary infantry more competitive vs. Stealers.

Ironic, Nids now dont have any good CC unit without major flaws: Genes get shot to pieces due to LOS on everything and dont even have the ability to hunt hordes like orks , Hormas suffer the same , Raveners will die to counter attack ,CC warriors same as Ravener,Gaunts .... ? forget them .

So the solutions are 1 go to a close range shooty army ,which will got more dakkafex and shooty warriors; 2 if you are really good at tactics,use multible units hit at same time win the combat and then , wait , they got rapid fired ....Grrrrr..... ok, my money is on the type 1.

I dunno, gaunts with feeder tendril support aren't bad at all.
Against MEq
3/4 reroll hit * 1/3 wound * 1/3 fail save = 1/12 (same as a single marine attack).

5 point models that end up hitting as well as a bolter toting marine in close combat ain't too shabby. No it ain't as good as orks but it is something.

Currently a unit of Rippers or Gaunts can roll up on some infantry, lose by 7 or 8 and shrug it off. With the new combat res that'll cost them a near-doubling of wounds.

I need to read the 5ed rules regarding this to be sure but gaunts in synapse are not fearless, they simply automatically pass the leadership test. I was thinking that may save them from the additional wounds depending on wording.

ED209 wrote:Ironic, Nids now dont have any good CC unit without major flaws: Genes get shot to pieces due to LOS on everything and dont even have the ability to hunt hordes like orks , Hormas suffer the same , Raveners will die to counter attack ,CC warriors same as Ravener,Gaunts .... ? forget them .

So the solutions are 1 go to a close range shooty army ,which will got more dakkafex and shooty warriors; 2 if you are really good at tactics,use multible units hit at same time win the combat and then , wait , they got rapid fired ....Grrrrr..... ok, my money is on the type 1.

Horde CC Nids will rely on out-slotting the enemy and hitting them with multiple units in a single assault phase to overpower them. If you have 12+ units on the board and 3-5 of them assault into CC all on the same turn I'd wager a LOT of armies will be hard pressed to have much rapidfire opportunity left when the CC bugs break through.

This also means that fire will have to be split between threatening CC units and the TMCs, which will be bearing down as well - most likely popping templates all the way.

Also using very large brood sizes in the weak CC broods will help keep CC results a lot closer than you might think, or allow them to sustain several losing rounds if combat doesn't balance out.

I think bugs will do well. I'd wouldn't be surprised to see 'Horde-Zilla' lists pop up now with 104+ gaunts supported by Genestealers AND 8 TMCs in an 1850pt. game. I already have a list like that in the wings to try out when the 5th ed book becomes available for play in my area.

I don't think any particular army list looks totally dominant in 5th ed. (yet), even the Mech-Eldar or what have you... it'll be a new game for a while!

some running fexes with crushing claws or twin scything talons will be fabulous distraction units if nothing else - your opponent just can't afford to ignore them.

I was starting to think that Nids may actually work as envisioned in 5th. Running Tyrants w/ Guard and Running Warriors, getting 4+ Cover saves from screening Gaunts, can keep Gaunts in Synapse, letting you get into assault with shooty elements on Turn 2/3, leaving time for your Fex's/MC's/Stealers to get there in the second wave.

I think that "Without Number" might actually be worthwhile for grabbing objectives. In v5, the gaunts will be scoring until the very last model, then they can recycle with a 2d6 fall back/forward to the central synapse already on the board. Perhaps a Hive Tyrant with full Guard to sit on the objective, drawing the guants to score.

Rockit wrote:I think bugs will do well. I'd wouldn't be surprised to see 'Horde-Zilla' lists pop up now with 104+ gaunts supported by Genestealers AND 8 TMCs in an 1850pt. game. I already have a list like that in the wings to try out when the 5th ed book becomes available for play in my area.

I took a 1750 Tyranid list to last year's Baltimore GT with 100+ models, a few Genestealers and 6 MCs. I made it to table 6 before my lack of playing (seriously like two other games of 40K all year) caught up to me. I know hordes have their doubters, but there's no doubt in my mind the list was quite strong. It just required more practice than I was able to give it. And all that being said, I think horde Tyranids will be better in 5th as long as we can figure a few things out.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:I was starting to think that Nids may actually work as envisioned in 5th. Running Tyrants w/ Guard and Running Warriors, getting 4+ Cover saves from screening Gaunts, can keep Gaunts in Synapse, letting you get into assault with shooty elements on Turn 2/3, leaving time for your Fex's/MC's/Stealers to get there in the second wave.

Yep, I agree. They might actually play as the designer intended.

gorgon wrote:I think the gameplan with tanks will be to keep shaking them with VCs and ignore them until you get close enough to pop 'em in h2h. Like you said, tanks are becoming static pillboxes. And if that pillbox isn't shooting, it's Advantage Tyranids.

The problem with that line of logic is that pill box tanks are going to end up with 4+ cover saves. This means that half your shooting does nothing right off the bat. So its going to be harder to shake the tanks than it was before, not just harder to destroy them. This is, of course, before you get into hand to hand where cover saves don't exist.

Phoenix wrote:

gorgon wrote:I think the gameplan with tanks will be to keep shaking them with VCs and ignore them until you get close enough to pop 'em in h2h. Like you said, tanks are becoming static pillboxes. And if that pillbox isn't shooting, it's Advantage Tyranids.

The problem with that line of logic is that pill box tanks are going to end up with 4+ cover saves. This means that half your shooting does nothing right off the bat. So its going to be harder to shake the tanks than it was before, not just harder to destroy them. This is, of course, before you get into hand to hand where cover saves don't exist.

True that, at least Tyranid weapons profiles are 'attacks times X' and the Nids which shoot the big guns have 2+ attacks to utilize. It's more shots downrange to try to get by the cover saves... no more shots than they have now but still a good thing.

Here are some of the big changes I see with Tyranids in v5. Please note that all of these concepts could easily change if GW changes some of the codex wordings with v5 codex FAQs that are rumored to come out around the time of the rulebook. Also, these are just my thoughts based on reading the v5 rulebook, not with actually playing any v5 games.


Hive Tyrants: Monstrous Creatures are only screened by intervening troops if more than 50% of their body is blocked. That means if you want to get the screening cover save via friendly units you'll need to use other MCs or Tyranid Warriors. . .not really the best options for something like a winged Tyrant.

Of course, opposing units still screen each other, so if an enemy has to draw LOS through another enemy unit your Tyrant will still get a cover save. Overall I would think that Flying Tyrants will be seen more often which means that the entire enemy army will be able to focus to bring them down a bit faster. You may want to consider taking a slightly cheaper version of the flying Tyrant (only absolutely necessary biomorphs) or stick with a walking version with Tyrant Guard.

Speaking of Tyrant Guard, since they are much smaller models than a Tyrant (and not MCs) and all that matters for a unit to get a cover save is if the majority of the models are obscured, as long as you have 2+ Tyrant guard you will be able to screen the Tyrant/Tyrant Guard unit with pretty much any other Tyranid unit.


Tyranid Warriors: These puppies can now be screened by gaunts giving them a 4+ save and they can run, meaning they should be a viable unit to use, although they are still very expensive for what they do. I personally feel the new rules tip the balance even further away from flying warriors since the only unit that could keep up with them enough to screen them would be Gargoyles. But an all flying force sounds like an interesting challenge to play with.


Lictors: Will they always have to take a DT terrain test when Deep Striking since they always DS into terrain? Here's hoping they change that with the 5th edition FAQ.


Stealers: The stealer shock tactic should still be in full effect, especially since now you can bring a cover save with you in the form of scuttling spinegaunts. A squad or two of stripped down Tyranid Warriors can even join the fray to help keep the gaunts in line until the Stealers clean up.

You will definitely need to hit the enemy en masse with stealers so that you aren't obliterated by return fire since you can no longer consolidate into combat. The weakening of the rending rules may actually turn out to be okay since you won't obliterate your enemies to the point where you guarantee that they run away. I think Extended Carapace is a complete requirement now since in combat you will almost always be facing more return attacks from the enemy (since the opponent can pull casualties from anywhere in the unit).


Guants: The cheap-o screening gaunt should really be good as gold now to provide you that cover save for your Stealers, Hormagaunts, Tyranid Warriors, etc.


Hormagaunts: The elimination of Escalation means this unit is amazing now all tooled up if taken in large enough numbers. I expect that armies based around several big units of Hormagaunts should do pretty darn well in v5. You can still use Spinegaunts to screen them in the first turn and after that the Hormagaunts will be into combat. You'll need several big units to make sure you can hit a whole section of the enemy army in unision. This will help minimize the whole return-fire element of the new rules.

Tooled up hormies are even going to be able to take out any (non-walker) vehicles in CC that have an AV10 rear armor thanks to the new rules.


Gargoyles: Still a unit that is a pretty good deal on paper but in reality struggles to do anything very well. Still a bit too expensive for my tastes to use as a fast screen for other flyers, but again an all flying army could be some wacky fun.


Zoanthropes: Can be screened giving them a 4+ cover save, which is pretty strong. Plus the fact that Venom Cannons are going to struggle to kill vehicles makes their Warp Blast all the more attractive.


Carnifexes: Still awesome and the Godzilla army should still be incredibly potent. Losing the ability to take out tanks with any Venom Cannon shot definitely hurts the Tyranid army's ability to take out vehicles at range, but since vehicles are now easier to kill in CC it may help reinforce a more balanced Tyranid army. With the loss of Escalation and the addition of running, other Carnifex configurations besides the Gunfex and Dakkafex are definitely much more valid.


Biovores: Barrage weapons firing at stuff out of LOS scatter the full 2D6 (ignoring the firer's BS), which means unless you roll a 'hit' with your Biovores your mines are going to miss by quite a bit. I'd still leave these puppies at home.


Deathspitter: The Deathspitter tends to be more expensive than the Devourer in the army list and the question remains if they new blast weapons make this wepaon a better choice. My gut instinct is that for the most part the Devourer is still the better weapon for the army, but I definitely want to play some proxy games to try the weapon out.

yakface wrote:Stealers: The stealer shock tactic should still be in full effect, especially since now you can bring a cover save with you in the form of scuttling spinegaunts. A squad or two of stripped down Tyranid Warriors can even join the fray to help keep the gaunts in line until the Stealers clean up.

At a 25% increase on the base price, you’re probably better off with greater numbers. The argument for EC was to double survivability against AP5 weapons, and with the cover save that argument is gone.

I expect to see feeder tendrils as the only upgrade on 'stealers in future.

sebster wrote:

At a 25% increase on the base price, you’re probably better off with greater numbers. The argument for EC was to double survivability against AP5 weapons, and with the cover save that argument is gone.

I expect to see feeder tendrils as the only upgrade on 'stealers in future.

You may well be right, however the increased amount of attacks back from opponents in CC along with the post-combat return fire (where your stealers may well not be getting cover saves) makes me still want to run Extended Carapace.

I'll have to try it both ways.

yakface wrote:You may well be right, however the increased amount of attacks back from opponents in CC along with the post-combat return fire (where your stealers may well not be getting cover saves) makes me still want to run Extended Carapace.

I'll have to try it both ways.

True, it's probably another thing that we'll know a year from now.

Guys the most important thing to remember for Nids is rending can be abused.

Split your stealers 2/1 between acid maw and feeder tendrils, and so long as you have 1 stealer with feeder tendrils left (or a broodlord, or a lictor) you can re-roll hits and re-roll wounds.

In a warrior/ripper army this doesn't apply, but in a warrior/stealer army based on leaping/scutting and lots of rending...you just never upgrade your strength.

The higher the opponents toughness, the more chances at rending you will get.

Yes, this is obvious to some and not so much to others...but it needs to be said.

I think this will be the central combination of any Nid list not based around Godzilla.

Re-roll hits, re-roll wounds, keep chance of wounding low to maximize rends.

I know I don't like the warrior/stealer combo. Everyone has saves, everyone moves through cover, stealers go first...warriors go second. With leaping and counterassault you run your warriors past your stealers into assault and pull the enemy into range. It's a dirty trick but it works very well.

This is how I'd run it. Yes you can run Raveners, I just like having Synapse and Raveners tend to charge without the stealer support. Both work fine, it's all about your playstyle.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/213006.page

looking forward to an updated Carnifex Tactica from you some time, Yak, especially on close combat fexes. Thanks for your early comments above, I'll certainly be rewriting my army list once I've had a few trial games

Stelek wrote:Guys the most important thing to remember for Nids is rending can be abused.

Split your stealers 2/1 between acid maw and feeder tendrils, and so long as you have 1 stealer with feeder tendrils left (or a broodlord, or a lictor) you can re-roll hits and re-roll wounds.

In a warrior/ripper army this doesn't apply, but in a warrior/stealer army based on leaping/scutting and lots of rending...you just never upgrade your strength.

The higher the opponents toughness, the more chances at rending you will get.

Yes, this is obvious to some and not so much to others...but it needs to be said.

I think this will be the central combination of any Nid list not based around Godzilla.

Re-roll hits, re-roll wounds, keep chance of wounding low to maximize rends.

That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. One thing that worries me, strangely is that I'd be afraid to make rending *too* effective as you'd end up wiping out your opponent or beating them so badly that you'd be guaranteeing that they run away. Have you run into that problem at all?

In many cases it would seem to be better to have a moderately dangerous CC unit (as opposed to a lethal one) that maximizes the chance to stay locked in combat during the opponents turn.

I guess both those upgrades give you the *option* to re-roll (I think -- I don't have my codex on me right now) so I guess you'd have the option to make your stealers be more or less deadly as needed.

Well I think the 'new' MC-less nids will be in a loooong line of stealers/warriors, giving each other cover saves as much as possible; and hitting you all at once...on everything they can.

In addition to what Stelek has said, and in continuance of Yakface:

I have been a Tyranid horde player for about a year now and while I am no great of the game, I have crunched a LOT of numbers and thought through how I will adapt to the new addition, so id liek to share my thoughts (feel free to correct me however!):

That sounds like a pretty interesting idea. One thing that worries me, strangely is that I'd be afraid to make rending *too* effective as you'd end up wiping out your opponent or beating them so badly that you'd be guaranteeing that they run away. Have you run into that problem at all?

This is exactly correct, and something I feel will become a bigger problem with the advent of combat squad space marines en masse - you mess up a unit, and whether you kill it or not, there is a good chance you will become unlocked, and the rest of the marine boys will happy walk up and frag you. With good spacing, it will be difficult to pin a second wave of support units, no matter what army you face, so it seems likely that we will suffer somewhat at the hands of the new consolidate rule.

My thoughts: Hormagaunts I feel benefit rather a lot from the new addition, which before continuing I will outline in brief:
1. no escalate, so they will always be on the board. In addition, due to deployment in two of the new missions, they can be a real hinderance to your opponent's depoyment options.
2. Feeder tendril buff - even without biomorphs, its a +50% damage buff (from hit on 4s, so 0.5 hits to 4s with re-rolls for 0.75 hits).
3. New cove rules - given they are going to be advancing, screening them for a single turn with a gaunt brood (which doesnt cost you any moment, because you both go 6"+D6" first turn) so they will be a bit tougher.
4. Not a buff for them, but other synapse is more easily available to keep up now, making them more manageable
5. Hitting vehicles on rear armour in assault, with S4 hormagaunts gives some interesting options

Im going to experiment with S4 hormagaunts - they mix well with a lictor or broodlord, causing huge amounts of damage to any other infantry. Assuming hitting on 4+, each 4 Gaunt generates a glancing hit - so a unit of 16 would cause 4 glances - there is a good chance of a shaken + weapon destroyed/immobilized result, and gives you a good chance of getting to keep hitting the vehicle in THEIR turn, when you are hitting automatically (1 glancing per 3 gaunts remaining).

So now, all the way back to responding to Yakface (sorry about the rant). I think its going to be CRITICAL to engage the enemy en masse, across a broader front than otherwise Tyranid players have been, so as to minimise how much combats are going to be won by. Im even now trying to do a "slow assault" wherein I minimise how many of my models can attack - minimising how much I win combat by. Ill inevitably destroy the unit Im fighting in THEIR turn, after we all move in, and it saves me from shooting, and creates a pure LOS block for my synapse.

Otherwise, it may be worth trying to get lesser gaunts into combat with more expensive units, so when the enemy does break, the gaunts consolidate forward and the better units backwards, so as the gaunts create a shield for 4+ coversaves if nothing else.

I think Raveners, and to a lesser extent Lictors will still be important, because they can keep enemies locked in combat, or pin small units you might not otherwise be able to engage, so that you;re limiting how many units are rapid firing you.

With the new vehicle rules, im starting to see more tanks sitting in terrain, which is great fun with Lictors - often 4S6 rending auto hitting attacks against rear armour is obviously going to be good - and he now has a 2+ cover save when they try and shoot him up - or when shielded by gaunts...maybe a little more viable?

Point wise, feeder tendrils are almost identical to acid maw against MEQ (maw is much better vs T5+), but to get the combination Stelek mentioned, you do end up invensting heavily in Genestealers. There is nothing wrong with that, but I feel a more gaunt based force is equally viable - gaunts actually get more from feeder tendrils (in terms of % increase in damage to point) due to their lower starting capabilities. 6 points of feeder tendrils can benefit 40+ gaunts, rather significantly.

Overall, I feel this addition gave a lot to my gaunt horde (i dont play with TMCs so Ill not comment on those), such as:
1. running warriors and brood lord
2. no escalate
3. feeder tendrils

My list always struggled with very vehicle heavy armies which I think will be a thing of the past with new scoring rules (which I feel is a mistake, no reason that old style lists wont work in V5, just stop the enemy from scoring and contest, win on VPs), so the horde only gets stronger.

All that said, Im a very green player, especially compared to many of the players on this board. Nonetheless, id love to continue this discussion - its nicer than the "my army doesnt work anymore" threads that are spreading like wild fire over the internet.

James F.

I agree with you guys about Hormagaunts being better...but I still don't like the price/resilience ratio of the unit, especially if we're talking about 12 or 13 pt. Hormies that will be more vulnerable to rapid-firing after winning assaults. I'll give them a try and see, but I still like regular Gaunts. When cover saves become plentiful, it's the cheapest stuff that's going to see the most improvement.

Regarding attacking across a broader front, I was thinking something similar. Realistically, I don't know how we're going to avoid having units take rapid-fire in the face after winning combats. Since we can't be as fiddly with our assaults in 5th, it's going to be harder to plan for that second phase CC win. So I think contacting the other army in at least two locations simultaneously will be key. That'll force some difficult decisions about where to use those supporting units. We're going to have units get shot to pieces...the trick might be making them pay elsewhere when they do so.

So with that in mind, do Broodlords and Lictors suddenly get more interesting? Maybe. Okay, the BL is definitely more interesting, although I wish it was more reliable. We're going to get refused flanked...no question about it. And if the BL comes in on the wrong flank...not good. On the other hand, the Lictor's deployment is more reliable, but it doesn't hit even remotely as hard as the BL. And the Lictor's cost still makes this old bug a sad panda.

@Phoenix: Vehicles may benefit from cover saves, but I really don't see tanks becoming a bigger problem for Tyranids. The high S and multiple shots of VCs mean we should still be glancing at a decent rate, and 5 out of 6 glancing results means no shooting. Then when we're close, they're toast. I could be wrong, but I really see this taking care of itself once we start playing with 5th.

I'll tell you what I like. I like big butts and I can not lie......

Right now my SAFH marines need just about every turn they get to shoot the big ones against Godzilla. Sometimes I even need to create an extra turn of shooting somehow. I know SAFH marines are soon to be gone, at least my version, but I think 8 TMC's can still be very viable. 6 Carnies up close and running is nothing at all to sneeze at. In fact it would put tremendous pressure on the enemy to bring them down before they reach the lines. A Flyrant and walking Tyrant with body guard can add to this apprehension. The Heavy Fexes probably only need a venom cannon and scything talons so they can either shoot vehicles or run into combat with the rest. Venom Cannons don't need to kill. Shake and stun is usually good enough, but if you get an immobilised, then the other units can catch it and kill it.

Remember all those powerfist toting champs and sarges now lose an attack in close combat. No more 5 man lascannon teams, assault cannons going down to 1 per squad for termies, rending losing some of it's potency and the general removal of heavy weapons from the field make the Carnies live just a turn longer. Running lets them get to the lines just a turn sooner. This all spells trouble in my mind.

I am wondering if we won't see more diverse sets of 'fexs in 5th. There might be something to be said for having say one or two dakka 'fex who just walk forward and shoot, and for elites have a shooter, a shooter/melee combo, and a melee runner. Since making tanks move now can reduce their non-ordnance fire power significantly, making them redeploy to get away from a melee 'fex is almost as good as shaking them. With Zoey's to kill, two dakka fex's to shake, a shooty fex to kill infantry, a mix fex to walk forward and kill infantry/shake vehicles or assault a convenient tank, and one melee fex to pressure the opponant into moving tanks or focusing fire on him, one might be well served.
It might not be ideal, but it would be more interesting than the current "hot list".

Maybe I just want to see giant bugs crushing things in melee too much.

yakface wrote:

Stealers: The stealer shock tactic should still be in full effect, especially since now you can bring a cover save with you in the form of scuttling spinegaunts. A squad or two of stripped down Tyranid Warriors can even join the fray to help keep the gaunts in line until the Stealers clean up.

You will definitely need to hit the enemy en masse with stealers so that you aren't obliterated by return fire since you can no longer consolidate into combat. The weakening of the rending rules may actually turn out to be okay since you won't obliterate your enemies to the point where you guarantee that they run away. I think Extended Carapace is a complete requirement now since in combat you will almost always be facing more return attacks from the enemy (since the opponent can pull casualties from anywhere in the unit).

I think EC is not necessary since you can take offensive grenade (forgot what it's called) and strike at initiative. In most cases Stealers have higher initiative than most of their opponents. Thus their attacks would strike and wound before any strike backs. Unless you're facing 30 boyz most units would only have a few models left to strike back.

You need enemy models alive to strike back. Or the genestealers get shot. Both make EC worthy. 'No consolidation into another melee' change is making precautions necessary.

The biomorph is Flesh hooks.

What I really want to see in action is death spitters. I think the new template rules will likely make them more viable. Particularly with the meta game shifting towards hordes.

Thanks guys! Great discussion.

I think the point about PFs losing an attack, and less/lesseffective rending in the opposition is indeed a major advantage to big nasty builds.

I'm excited to mix and match my fexes more for some neat modeling opportunities

yakface wrote:

Biovores: Barrage weapons firing at stuff out of LOS scatter the full 2D6 (ignoring the firer's BS), which means unless you roll a 'hit' with your Biovores your mines are going to miss by quite a bit. I'd still leave these puppies at home.

Just because I love biovores I have to ask.

Since the spores will now give a modicum of screening ability does this not actually help as often as it becomes useless? The leadership test NO to shoot them has helped me more often than seems valid already, and has more than once led to them killing enemies (once involved manditory charge on them since they were closest - a classic). Always aim for the front lines. Plus despite the rather annoying odds, bioacid is still one of the few things that can theoretically penetrate av14 at range.

The main problem for me is they cannot CLAIM objectives now. That hurts - I always had them on one in 4e.


shrug

Target priority is no longer a factor in 5th ed. Kirsanth...

If the spore mines obscure LOS to a majority of another unit then they would provide a 4+ cover save to the target unit... that works both ways though!

Yeah, but since sporemines land in a nice little clump the chance of that blocking LOS to the majority of models in a unit is very, very slim. Certainly not worth considering whether to use/not use the unit.

With target priority being kaput Spore mines can't even draw enemy fire anymore.


The new LOS rules means your biovores will likely be able to be shot by the enemy if they want or if you do find a place to put them out of LOS then your spore mines scatter a full 2D6" when you miss.

Overall it just feels to me like biovores (which I never liked in the new codex) have gotten even worse.

Question in regard to Zoanthropes, and some gaming theory (who doesnt love that?).

Firstly facts:
1. They are T4 with a 2+ save
2. Obscurement means they will typically have a 4+ cover save
3. They are long creatures, so unlikely to draw too much fire, as often it is a waste (so long as you dont walk into plasma gun range until it is tied up)
4. They have toxic miasma

So, with all of that in mind...
1. Will the fact that they are so much taller than friendly models allow them to fire at enemies without giving a cover save? Friendly models arent really in the way per se.
2. Im considering using them as pure force multipliers with synapse and catalyst, then running them into CC for a -1 WS modifier (which I asume given the wording is not cumulative)...think about if for just a second. Enemies suffer -1 WS, so MEQ drop to WS3...hordes of gaunts got TOUGHER, while WS4 hormagaunts, perhaps with feeder tendrils nearby, go up to 2/3 or 8/9 hits per attack.

Same applies to Ork boy hordes, who of course have a lot of trouble killing zoanthropes, aside from Nob power klaws of course.

Any merit to that sort of idea?

I think we will just have to shoot before we assault with the gaunts or stealers or fexes...think if you shoot the troops around the squad youre about to assault into, and you wipea good portion of them who cares if they get cover save smost of our Nids guns arent ap low enought to care about the saves they may get so if you shoot what could be in range of rapid firing your troops the damage will be much less.

EC for stealers I think will be a solid choice for the reason being most rapid fire guns are ap 5 like bolters and gauss flayers etc, so itd be an almost automatic wipe on the troop uinless the numbers come out lucky...

One thing about zoeys is that in kill points missions, each one is worth one. Not sure if they're worth it then.

Are they? Im pretty sure its the selection is worth one point, so you would have to kill them all to earn points...but I havent seen the exact working, so if you know it for certain I would love to hear it

It certainly undermines that strategy certainly...if its true I think ill be dropping zoanthropes all together.

fazz wrote:I think its going to be CRITICAL to engage the enemy en masse, across a broader front than otherwise Tyranid players have been, so as to minimise how much combats are going to be won by. Im even now trying to do a "slow assault" wherein I minimise how many of my models can attack - minimising how much I win combat by. Ill inevitably destroy the unit Im fighting in THEIR turn, after we all move in, and it saves me from shooting, and creates a pure LOS block for my synapse.

Otherwise, it may be worth trying to get lesser gaunts into combat with more expensive units, so when the enemy does break, the gaunts consolidate forward and the better units backwards, so as the gaunts create a shield for 4+ coversaves if nothing else.

Watch out trying those tactics on Marines in the future, rumor has it they may choose to fallback from combat AT WILL, auto rallying where they stop. I agree that a large front OR a weak front will be the way to success in CC horde Nid tactics to come.

When I say 'weak front' I mean literally putting weak units out there to engage & be decimated. If they are cheap enough (rippers), fast enough & easy enough to defeat they could change the whole landscape of a front line by falling during the second round of assault.

Giving plenty of time for your major assault units to advance and get into position as well as possibly weakening the enemy just enough and moving their units around out of a self-supporting formation with consolodation.

We shall see.

fazz wrote:Are they? Im pretty sure its the selection is worth one point, so you would have to kill them all to earn points...but I havent seen the exact working, so if you know it for certain I would love to hear it

It certainly undermines that strategy certainly...if its true I think ill be dropping zoanthropes all together.

I also believe that Kill Points are UNIT based, not model based unless the model itself counts as an individual unit. Zoanthropes may act independently but ALL models in a unit still only comprise a single unit, thus 1KP. AFAIK

Yeah those marine rumours, couple with combat squads + ATSKNF is very scary for a nid horde player.

Single models that are a unit in their own is 1 KP, its not a FOC choice for KP so Zoanthropes = 1 KP each. Making them maybe a little less worth.

HQ with retinue is only 1KP too, making tyrant + guard really gain in worth.

A Zoanthrope is not a unit if three are placed.

0-1 and opperates independent means 3 scattered needs 3 dead to drop utility.

The 3 Zoanthropes are one unit even if they do not need coherency. They are not fielded 1 per FOC - unless only one is fielded. Cheers.



shrug

FWIW you should note that Zoanthropes will not get cover saves from anything but MC or Warriors. You can trace LOS from eye to torso straight over all the troop models.

Who's up for running sporemines? Come on, you know you want to do it. I run...BOOM!

Ran into Biovores for the first time in a long time just the other day...it was...interesting. lol

Couldn't really draw fire with spore mines anyway, part of why target priority is going away.

Anyway I think big crushing melee bugs is going to make a comeback. They aren't as efficient in mathhammer as say a devourer fex might be, but when they are running across the battlefield at you with 100+ gaunts and some stealers...man, making your own target priority checks is difficult. (That means you deciding what to shoot, and doing it correctly, every time.)

Oh, and I think marines will be scary because they've sucked for a decade. It's about time syndrome? lol

Where do you find that they are one unit?

You should check the rulebook for individual units consisting of single models.

Isn't the codex clear on this?

Bought separate, deploy and act separate...only thing is you get 3 for the cost of 1 FOC slot.

From the book...

Brood: You may include between 1 and 3 Zoanthropes as a single Heavy Support choice, but only one choice may be made per army. Thus you can have a maximum of three in an army. Zoanthropes are deployed as a single unit, but do not need to be placed together and operate independently during the game.

What about MC's not getting to shoot more than one weapon? Was that just a dumb rumor or not?

I love spore mines!

Dumb rumor. MCs may shoot two weapons.

Here's a change:

They're even worse against Orks

Moo-ha-ha-ha

Running spore mines sound very interesting...though I guess I have to wait for an FAQ before trying it...

Running Spore Mine! Where do I sign up?

Stelek wrote:FWIW you should note that Zoanthropes will not get cover saves from anything but MC or Warriors. You can trace LOS from eye to torso straight over all the troop models.l

Interestingly, if one is lucky enough to have old 2nd ed Zoanthropes they can probably screen them with just about anything.

Wouldnt screening your zoeys also give the opponant a 4+ cover save because you're shooting through your own troops? I would just stick them in a forest.

Hmm...interesting thought. I'll have to compare.

And come to think of it, my 2nd ed. Tyrant is *definitely* a lot smaller. It'd be much easier to hide behind a hill. Old school Tyranids FTW!

Shuma -- you could likely draw clear LOS as long as the screening troops aren't too far out in front. The Zoey should see over them for the most part.

Here is my quite unit breakdown:

Hive tyrant: Better with guard worse with wings. But keep in mind that if you are running the guard tyrant to maintain synapse and shoot a gun you wont be able to run. And it may get left behind.

Broodlord: Far better now that it has the ability to run. In 4th it was just too damn slow, and cost its bodyfguard their main advantage. No longer.

Warriors: Able to screen your MC's and able to be screened by many troops. Walking warriors just became much more viable, though shooting warriors as with the tyrant are going to have to be a trade off.

Lictors: Always dropping into dangerous terain (until hopefuly its faq'd) is horrible. But the changes to cover, preffered enemy, and the ability to run into deep cover after landing means that a well placed lictor assault can give an entire horde preffered enemy at just the right moment. When you are throwing 60+ hormy attacks down field preffered enemy could become amazing.

Gaunts: Horde gaunts just got a significant boost with running, not to mention they are the only troops choice that can capture objectives for a damn.

Hormys: Oddly unchanged since they already had fleet and a 12 inch assault meant that counter charges wont really do a tremendous ammount. Still a solid choice.

Rippers: Are basically unshootable with true LOS and anything in front of them. Running also helps to get them across the field in much quicker fashion.

Genestealers: Screening helps immensely as long as they are behind something that isnt slowing them down (hormys). The feeder tendrils are finally a viable upgrade.

Zoanthropes: Screening doesn't help them a tremendous ammount, but the new blast rules are a nice addition. And being a single model in a dispersed unit will make them quite difficult to bring down in KP missions. These are still a strong choice.

Carnifex: Gunfex is down a bit, mellee fex is up. Both are still quite viable, with the edge in my opinion still up in the air between the two.

Biovores: Will never hit anything, but spore mines dont always need to hit. And its not like they were good before.

Gargoyles: With everything else in the army speeding up gargoyles slow down. Though as the only thing that can now really cheaply screen the MC's they may see some novel use.

Raveners: Perhaps more than any other unit in the army the ravener took a nerf. KP's means units of one are no longer an option and with lessoned effect of rending and counter charges this unit may have seen the last of its glory days. It's just too damn expensive for what its capable of, and now it can't even grab objectives. Though in the very least running after DS may leave a unit of them alive around a corner to assault the next turn. Not much but that aspect is sightly improved.



In all I think a more balanced tyranid force has gained considerable weight over what it had, while the more focused armies like nid zilla have dropped minorly in effectiveness. Overall a plus for the army in my opinion.

Agree with you on most points, object to the ones below.

Gaunts: Horde gaunts just got a significant boost with running, not to mention they are the only troops choice that can capture objectives for a damn.

Umm, gaunts are fleet so get no boost from the run rule.

And I'd beg to differ that stealers aren't capable of taking objectives. Stealers do not need synapse to function so are better at using the new flank rule to grab an objective and won't run all the time when there's no synapse nearby.

Hormys: Oddly unchanged since they already had fleet and a 12 inch assault meant that counter charges wont really do a tremendous ammount. Still a solid choice.

First, no escalation is a decent boost, granted there's now a whoe other way to force them into reserves. Also, not understanding the counter charge statement. How does a 12" charge change anything in that regard?

I do think hormies have a place in the army now, with wounds caused mattering more then bodies in combat res, hormies have an advantage over gaunts now.

Rippers: Are basically unshootable with true LOS and anything in front of them. Running also helps to get them across the field in much quicker fashion.

First, I still think they will be shootable if screened by other Non-MC models but it is true they should always get a 4+ cover save. There will always be gaps and spaces through which you can see them. And if you are talking terrain I don't see how there's really any change there.

I think the changes to scoring though really put a hurt to them though. Those troop slots are going to be very valuable and every one should be filled by units that score.

And in reality gaunts fullfill the same roll as a ripper swarm plus can score. See no reason to take them unless synpase is sparse.

Genestealers: Screening helps immensely as long as they are behind something that isnt slowing them down (hormys). The feeder tendrils are finally a viable upgrade.

Agree except hormies and gaunst are just as fast until the charge AND scuttle can help get the gaunts up ahead if that is something you want.

Zoanthropes: Screening doesn't help them a tremendous ammount, but the new blast rules are a nice addition. And being a single model in a dispersed unit will make them quite difficult to bring down in KP missions. These are still a strong choice.

I will have to wait and see, cause my first thought was that each one would count as a KP. Hope I am wrong.

Gargoyles: With everything else in the army speeding up gargoyles slow down. Though as the only thing that can now really cheaply screen the MC's they may see some novel use.

Interesting idea with screening. However can't see how they can be considered slower unless you are comparing them to units which fullfill a different role and are still slower (tyrant, carni, rippers, etc).

With gargoyles, it is nice that the bio plasma can't be used against them to reduce attacks but I still see them as over priced, non-scoring termagants.

Raveners: Perhaps more than any other unit in the army the ravener took a nerf.

I agree here but there is one interesting caveat: 6 point deathspitter on a BS3 model. Could prove to be an interesting upgrade.

Umm, gaunts are fleet so get no boost from the run rule.

And I'd beg to differ that stealers aren't capable of taking objectives. Stealers do not need synapse to function so are better at using the new flank rule to grab an objective and won't run all the time when there's no synapse nearby.

You're right. I completly forgot that the basic gaunts already had fleet. Though I would still argue that using genestealers to capture is a waste of points. For every genestealer not killing MEQ's and sitting on an objective you could have 3-4 gaunts doing the same. And couldn't you simply have the gaunt squad lurk on the objective? Or does that remove scoring ability?

First, no escalation is a decent boost, granted there's now a whoe other way to force them into reserves. Also, not understanding the counter charge statement. How does a 12" charge change anything in that regard?

No escalation helps but how often did you see that compared to the new method of keeping them off the table? I think it's too much of a tradeoff to be a huge boost. And as for the countercharge statement, generally you don't barely touch the enemy with that 12" charge. You hit them with a fair number of gaunts and cover a large flank of whatever you are charging. So allowing them to move in response isn't a tremendous issue like it is for lictors or raveners.

First, I still think they will be shootable if screened by other Non-MC models but it is true they should always get a 4+ cover save. There will always be gaps and spaces through which you can see them. And if you are talking terrain I don't see how there's really any change there.

With true line of sight things like small hills or ruins with little walls that used to be area terrain now actually block line of sight as long as you cant see any of the unit. A one inch stone wall blocks every ripper from harm. Combined with near perma 4+ inv or cover and shooting that low cost high wound unit just doesn't seem like an attractive option any more. I field around 25-30 rippers in my army and I've done a few fifth games and in general they seem to have gotten a pretty good boost to their effectiveness. Though in reality you're right and I do have to make every scoring model count since they can not.

Agree except hormies and gaunst are just as fast until the charge AND scuttle can help get the gaunts up ahead if that is something you want.

True, but I wouldnt want to tie the genestealers behind a large termy squad on the off chance that an opponants charge could cause that big wound wall to become impassable terrain that the stealers would have to walk around.

Interesting idea with screening. However can't see how they can be considered slower unless you are comparing them to units which fullfill a different role and are still slower (tyrant, carni, rippers, etc).

Well running warriors/tyrants/carnies/rippers do tend to put the advance at a slightly faster pace, though honestly im basing my experiences from my own army which are walking tyrant and ripper heavy. Gargoyles just dont get as far ahead as they used too, and using them to engage heavy weapons squads to avoid lascanon fire at the MC's isn't quite as important as it once was now that cover has improved and MC's can run from cover to cover if need be. Gargoyles didn't get worse, but where fifth helped a lot of units they didn't really get better either.

I agree here but there is one interesting caveat: 6 point deathspitter on a BS3 model. Could prove to be an interesting upgrade.

I've always used the deathspitters on them. They are pretty good in fifth against non MEQ's but they don't really do much since if you aren't in combat with the raveners and you have line of sight you're probably about to lose the unit. Shooting a deathspitter means a bolter can shoot back.

Lurking Tyranids cannot score.

kirsanth wrote:Lurking Tyranids cannot score.

Probably have to keep a zoey or gunwarrior nearby to them then. Or a gun tyrant. Though that is a bit more setup than a single genestealer so both tactics are probably viable in their own ways.

I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

Yes i agree to a point. Although you need to hold atleast one objective with troops or you are simply playing to a draw (which may or may not be deicded via VPs). Having one gaunt unit go to ground with some synapse while the rest of the horde go and play is certainly an option.

Though I would still argue that using genestealers to capture is a waste of points. For every genestealer not killing MEQ's and sitting on an objective you could have 3-4 gaunts doing the same.

Kicking the crap outta the enemy and scoring an objective doesn't have to be mutually exclusive either. There should be objectives near where you are kicking butt, so at the very least you'll be contesting them. Attrition will certainly cause issues with scoring but having one model be able to score helps minimize the affect.

And couldn't you simply have the gaunt squad lurk on the objective?

No but you can go to ground. Have some synapse unit do the same and you have a fairly resistant objective holder if good cover is available (3+ cover save). If that synapse can provide counter charge, all the better.

The key in my opinion will be placing objectives and having units such that you can wipe out the scoring units and still hold atleast one objective with a minimum of force.

gorgon wrote:I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

This is much more fluffy and will work to win the game... look at Tyranids as always attempting to force a VP (KP) count or draw instead of trying to tactically wrest or control objectives.

Sweep over anything that jumps on an objective and push back the rest of the army... carpet them with gnashing death and crazy pinning templates, just like in the fluff... wash over them like a tide of bodies now, get the biomass later.

Sounds like a LOT of fun!

anyone know the new MC rules, i herd that MC's can no longer fire multiple ranged weps equiped at the same time.
I will be very sad if this is true, my tyrant has a venomcannon and a barbed strangler he puts to good use.

Rockit wrote:

gorgon wrote:I don't think you really can afford to have Gaunt units just sitting on objectives like a tac squad would, either. Tyranids are too much of an "all-in" army. My current theory is that I'll concentrate on kicking the crap outta the other army's troops and making sure I contest objectives while doing so.

This is much more fluffy and will work to win the game... look at Tyranids as always attempting to force a VP (KP) count or draw instead of trying to tactically wrest or control objectives.

Sweep over anything that jumps on an objective and push back the rest of the army... carpet them with gnashing death and crazy pinning templates, just like in the fluff... wash over them like a tide of bodies now, get the biomass later.

Sounds like a LOT of fun!

Yea.
We are not known for losing mulitple units at a time to accomplish a goal.


errr. . . Wait!

epil wrote:anyone know the new MC rules, i herd that MC's can no longer fire multiple ranged weps equiped at the same time.
I will be very sad if this is true, my tyrant has a venomcannon and a barbed strangler he puts to good use.

If i remember right they can move and fire two. Wheras regular walkers can move and fire one.

ShumaGorath wrote:

epil wrote:anyone know the new MC rules, i herd that MC's can no longer fire multiple ranged weps equiped at the same time.
I will be very sad if this is true, my tyrant has a venomcannon and a barbed strangler he puts to good use.

If i remember right they can move and fire two. Wheras regular walkers can move and fire one.

In fifth edition, MCs can move and fire up to two weapons, as you said. However, walkers can move and fire all weapons, making Dreadnoughts and Warwalkers a little more mobile in terms of firepower than regular vehicles.

From the sounds of things after reading all 3 pages of posts, Tyranids as a whole are looking to be less effective at what we were originally designed to do. CC was our thing and getting their was a bit tougher. That was the reason the Gun toating 'Fexs were designed. To handle the big boys with wheels and hold them off till our littler and more nastier bugs could get in close and shred them up.

Now with running it allows us to get into CC faster with certain units that just took forever to do it or might've originally been left behind. However, like its been said this is a blessing and a curse rolled into one. It makes more CC oriented Fexs more capable and able to get across the board but then you lose some of your big guns. And making a hybrid shooter/CC fex you lose the shot to close the distance or you fall behind the rest of the army and negate the need of your CC weapons (Scything Talons, Crushing Claws).

Also Zoey's seem to be getting easier to pop. If we can't screen them behind our normal troops then whats the point of taking of them at all? I mean that leaves the only reason to bring them is to pop a Monolith. Otherwise you just Fex's to stun a tank till your CC fex can run up and slash, slash through his armor with 4-5 Str 10 attacks.

This is just my opinion but it seems like a winning Tyranids army for 5th is going to consist of Tyrant w/ Gaurd, Warriors (filling in 1 HQ slot, and 2-3 Elite slots), a Lictor if you want a little variety in your Elites, 2 Genestealer broods, 4 Squads of some mix of Homraguants and/or Termaguants, and Winged Warriors as Fast Attack Choices (if you want them), and then 2-3 Fex's with shooty and CC in mind, 1 unit of Zoey's if you're facing a Necron army and would rather shoot the tank instead of running up on it. This is just in the mindset of a game thats not pushing up and using Forge Models like the Trygon or something along those lines. As I don't normally see to many of those in 1000-1500 pt games, but I'm sure they are by some players. I normally see those in the Apocalypse size games and for good reason they're quite expensive to field.

What I'm looking at now is making a swarm army that just overwhelms my enemy. Taking objectives looks to be to much hassel and a real downfall to the new rules for our Army as whole. Because if you spilt us up we're not as strong. We get weaker and easier to pick off. Perhaps GW's idea or intent with 5th edition and Tyranids was to make our play style more "fluff" based. I mean if you look at any of the artwork for Tyranids you don't normally see 6 huge walking Fex's with like 3 Gene broods walking in between them. Its wave after wave of teeth and claws gnawing at the enemy and making every concerted effort to close the gap and eat them up in close combat. Sure we have the ranged weapons but we're very much a CC oriented army and from the looks or it thats the direction we're being taken unless we just want to see our "cool" units eaten alive while they try and needlessly kill themselves in the roles they were designed for.

Granted take this with a grain of salt I haven't had a chance to read the 5th edition rule book yet, but from the new rules that I've seen and read on here this is the direction that I percieve is going to be the best way to have a surviving chance on the board now. Just my thoughts.

For the points taken up I believe that zoanthropes are still quite effective. Three of them with nothing but warp blast is 6 T4 2+/6+ wounds throwing out three warp blasts a turn. Thats about the same points value as a medium to high value ranged carnifex. Keep them near anything with synapse (or give them synapse) and they become a daunting target in kill points missions and provide the now much needed extra ranged power against high armor vehicles. The venom canon just wont cut it now that it can't actually kill anything.

I think the Venom Cannon still has its place. It's not so much destroying vehicles but keeping them from shooting so your bugs can get close to them. The VC was always glancing against Landraiders/Monoliths in the first place. Plus a Gunfex can still pack a lot of hurt.

Or maybe I'm just saying that because my carnifex is the only thing I have shooting in my planned army

Thanks guys - interesting opinions and discussion, it'll be a blast to finally get to try it out in practice soon

Sadly, nidzilla still seems very viable in 5th. Out go the genestealers, in come 50 or so without number gaunts (more in >1500 games). Even better, Tau, the bane of nidzilla, get a real kicking in 5th.

I'm undecided how to play horde nids, but a core of say 30 supergaunts backed up by 2 large mobs of without number shootagaunts looks a pretty solid foundation. I use a similar build currently, and it is lethal when it gets its fleet on, so I don't see any reason for it to get any worse now I can force the 4+ save on the hormies and happily commit shootagaunts to their deaths. Not really convinced by scouting genestealers in this list at 1500, but once you are over 1700 there is maybe a place for them as the 6by4 becomes increasingly crammed.

I posted a list I am building towards - any comments would be welcome.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/214297.page

Without numbers is pretty pointless most of the time, since you for that point cost would get another mob.

Kallbrand wrote:Without numbers is pretty pointless most of the time, since you for that point cost would get another mob.

Sure, but without numbers can actually give you 8 broods for the cost of two, and still guarantee one of those is whole and scoring (and moves 6+d6 towards an objective that you should have placed near your lines) in a standard 5e game. Which is relevant more often than it is not - so as long as you mean "most of the time" to mean "most of the gameplay time", but not counting tthe small portion of time spent calculating who WON the game. They score/contest to the last gaunt - people cannot just knock them to half and ignore anymore! In all fairness, I have only seen the rule get me up 4 broods, but almost 1/2 of my 5e wins now have been helped/caused by that rule alone.

But enough people disagree with me that I just enjoy the now. ^^

And Lictors are nicer than that. As I posted elsewhere, unless I am misreading (again), DS a Lictor into Impassable Terrain, and they are fine. Heck hard not to get 2+ save from that even.

Kallbrand wrote:Without numbers is pretty pointless most of the time, since you for that point cost would get another mob.

The ability to recycle a suicide troops unit into your back line in turns 3-4 is a huge advantage in 5th. Paying for extra broods dilutes your broods sizes, which gives up kill points. Large without number units allow you to play the gaunt broods to the mission you are undertaking.

For the point of your without number you get another almost as large brood of for example spinegaunts. Why would juh rather want 1 extra brood that comes in turn 3-4 (outside of synapse range most of the time) instead of one that is on the table turn 1? And that is ofc if pepole kills off all your gaunts, you might end up not getting anything for the points.

20 spinegaunts for 160 points (with it) or 20+12 for the same, for me its an easy choice.

The 2nd brood doesn't use up a FoC slot though. Nids are easily able to use up all their troops slots (I know mine does)

Kallbrand wrote:For the point of your without number you get another almost as large brood of for example spinegaunts. Why would juh rather want 1 extra brood that comes in turn 3-4 (outside of synapse range most of the time) instead of one that is on the table turn 1? And that is ofc if pepole kills off all your gaunts, you might end up not getting anything for the points.

20 spinegaunts for 160 points (with it) or 20+12 for the same, for me its an easy choice.

Pretty sure this was actually covered, but let us recap.

Because outside of synapse, last turn they can score without a LD5 test, ONLY if they just appeared.
Because outside of synapse, other than last turn they move faster towards your synapse (which better be where you want your gaunts or you deserve what you get) than any other way to move.
Because it can be up to 6 units in one FoC slot, every turn - not just 1 extra brood.
Because if they are on the table turn 1 they can die turn one.
Because if you can take objectives with your gaunts (remember they are troops), then no matter how many died it rarely matters.
Because when your opponent kills every troop choice on the table, it is still possible to win the game on your next turn.
Because troops score to the last model - opponents WILL kill them even when they know they are without number or you will get to the other side of the table, like pawns in chess.

Because I want to come back to my later I shall wait to finish this.

Kallbrand wrote: Why would juh rather want 1 extra brood that comes in turn 3-4 (outside of synapse range most of the time) instead of one that is on the table turn 1?

Because I understand the 5th edition rules set and you don't?

Under the current rules you would never pay points for WN. Two 5th build percepts are troop scoring redundancy and minimal FOC slots (to paraphrase, low KP opportunities). There must be as many possible scoring possibilities in turn 5 as possible, without falling into the trap of giving up easy kill points. The WN option builds a bridge between these two percepts.

Under objective missions a 25 strong WN brood can provide the vital screen for the vulnerable CC gaunts before being recycled to your back line to score. In the KP missions a 25 strong brood is very difficult to shift. Consider the commitment that must be made to remove it and vulnerability of anything that tries.

Bear in mind also, that you will have synapse in the back line anyway. You have to hold your table edge objective counter in one mission, and the objective counters will likely be close by in another. So if you haven't included the requirement to control your deployment area in your army build, well then you're probably doomed before you even start rolling the dice.

Yeah I've had to change my tune on WN and see it as defintely worthwhile in 5ed. I'd add that having one model in a unit score/contest is a huge part of why WN is viable.

Under old rules, you could just ignore the WN unit when it was below 50%. Forced the Nid player to try and kill off the unit or other such nonsense. Now the unit must be killed to a man in order to remove it from scoring or contesting.

Because I understand the 5th edition rules set and you don't?

You are funny. You understand it and claims the WN is that good. At least it made me laugh but it seems your the one with no clue. Lets go by it step by step.

Under the current rules you would never pay points for WN. Two 5th build percepts are troop scoring redundancy and minimal FOC slots (to paraphrase, low KP opportunities). There must be as many possible scoring possibilities in turn 5 as possible, without falling into the trap of giving up easy kill points. The WN option builds a bridge between these two percepts.

*Why do you need as many scoring possiblites as possible? There is only one scenario with more then 2 objectives and during the only KPs you will actually have the chance to give up even more KPs by taking it. You dont expekt your gaunts to be bringing in many KPs at least, I hope.

Under objective missions a 25 strong WN brood can provide the vital screen for the vulnerable CC gaunts before being recycled to your back line to score. In the KP missions a 25 strong brood is very difficult to shift. Consider the commitment that must be made to remove it and vulnerability of anything that tries.

*A 25 stong brood that you manage to get out of synpase by killing whatever brings it to them is quite easy to kill, with new template rules and new CC. Getting 2x20 for the same cost is harder to shift then a single 25, that should be obvious. Unless you are ofc already spamming your troops choices to the max and wants more, but isnt the 6 you can get enough for you? All the fexxes uses up quite alot of points and doesnt really leave that much for troops.

Bear in mind also, that you will have synapse in the back line anyway. You have to hold your table edge objective counter in one mission, and the objective counters will likely be close by in another. So if you haven't included the requirement to control your deployment area in your army build, well then you're probably doomed before you even start rolling the dice.

*This one is the best. If you already have synpase and a brood controlling your table edge objective, what do you need the recylced one for?

Im not claiming it is usless, but its uses are pretty limited still.

As for all of the opinions, I'm so frustrated about what is the BEST upgrade for genestealers?

Carapace?

Or Scuttler??

BTW, what is that mean of 'Free Move' for scout rule?

please answer it everyone.

I'm gonna go with none of the above and say "Feeder Tendrils".

Then "Carapace".

Is Feeder tendrils, Carapace and Scuttlers over egging the pudding a bit?

I am looking at running a couple of units of 'stealers with scuttling as "jaws" for my army, not sure whether to go with carapace + tendrils or drop tendrils and buy an extra stealer or two...

Sadetta131 wrote:BTW, what is that mean of 'Free Move' for scout rule?

please answer it everyone.

You can find out what 'Scouts' means in the BGB. Basically, it means any unit with the 'Scouts' special rule can make a free move before the game begins. For Infantry, like Genestealers, this is 6".

Or the ability to come in from the short table edges as reserves.

Fexor wrote:Also Zoey's seem to be getting easier to pop. If we can't screen them behind our normal troops then whats the point of taking of them at all?

Mine live longer. They are not Monstrous Creatures, so why can you not screen yours? They can be seen from about anywhere, but they can hide part of their body (where it meets the little terrain part of their base) behind any brood in the game even rippers - we checked. 4+ cover great for the ap1-2 things people use to kill them, instead of 6+ invuln.

I use mine more often.

Running though - they lack, so plan ahead.

Seems to me that an infiltrating Broodlord combined with scuttling (scout) without number Guant broods could be interesting. Add in some Stealers with fleshhooks, and a Lictor with feeder tendrils and it could get very interesting. If a Lictor lets you re-roll the Reserve roll, after the edge deployment is known, it would be even better. Is that the case?

Warprat

Feeder tendrils are an absolute must.

Carapace is a bit of a waste if you look at it saving 1/6 more models from wounds. Might as well have ¼ more models on the field. Carapace has been worthwhile in previous editions because it allowed you a save against AP5 small arms… but now that cover is so much easier to get it’s likely carapace won’t contribute as much as it used. This is a judgement call, but right now my list is working better when I don’t spend points on carapace.

Scuttlers may or may not fit your plan, depending on your opponent, the terrain set up and your playing style. Like carapace, it’s a judgement call.

I think the case for carapace beomes stronger if you use the scuttlers ability - outflanking units are more likely not to be benefitting from gaunt screens or the like. If you get an early role and they show up a turn "too early" they need the protection.

Broodlord cant scout, scout can't be passed on to IC.

Hey, i have a 3 squads of Termagaunts consists 12 each choices. Should i give them Without Number for every types of mission of the game?

Mart- The broodlord gives the unit infiltrate, and those units can outflank as well.

Sad- That depends on what you want them to do. If you just want the units to camp on objectives, then having 1-2 8-strong minimum units with without number would be better and then use the extras to beef up the 3rd "normal" unit.

SteveW

Does the Lictor Reserve Re-Roll come before or after the deployment edge is rolled for if using Outflank?

Thanks!

kirsanth wrote:

Fexor wrote:Also Zoey's seem to be getting easier to pop. If we can't screen them behind our normal troops then whats the point of taking of them at all?

Mine live longer. They are not Monstrous Creatures, so why can you not screen yours? They can be seen from about anywhere, but they can hide part of their body (where it meets the little terrain part of their base) behind any brood in the game even rippers - we checked. 4+ cover great for the ap1-2 things people use to kill them, instead of 6+ invuln.

I use mine more often.

Running though - they lack, so plan ahead.

I understand the concept of that, which is why I even asked about moding the model and removing that peice of the model that connects the Zoey to the stand. So that it gets a fair cover save since its not a monstrous creature. The reason for this is that the main part of the Zoey is its body, which unfortunately enough for us is sticking straight in the air in a vertical manner. Now I'm not saying you're wrong, but from what the new 5th Ed. rule book states is that "most" of the model (meaning 50%) is obscurred than the model gets a cover save based off the Cover Chart, which you can find in the BGB. With this being said and using the stock Zoey model I don't see any troop model except perhaps the Genestealers and any of the MC's will give it a cover save since those (I'm at work so I can't compare atm) seem to be the only models that would obscure the view of the Zoey by 50% or more.

That's why I'm looking at them as less than effective. If I'm wrong they get cover saves from Gaunts then happy day!!!

Its only MCs that need to be 50% obscured, for normal guy its just any tiny thing thats obscuring you tht counts. As long as it is obscuring the arms-legs-torso-head.

However, the lowest part of the Zoey that's being obscured is his tail, which is not on the arms-legs-torso-head list.

fitzeh wrote:I think the case for carapace beomes stronger if you use the scuttlers ability - outflanking units are more likely not to be benefitting from gaunt screens or the like. If you get an early role and they show up a turn "too early" they need the protection.

True that. If you take scuttlers EC becomes a better buy.

But feeder tendrils are an absolute must.

Aduro wrote:However, the lowest part of the Zoey that's being obscured is his tail, which is not on the arms-legs-torso-head list.

If you are using Rippers to screen it or targeting it from above, OK that is relevant.
On the level even gaunts will cover an iota of its body, and Hormagaunts make it a no brainer.
Now Go to Ground. 2+/3+

Heck use Gargoyles. Since most things will only see the tail now, the lower part, no chance of even taking a shot.

shrug

Cover saves don't help you in close combat.

orchewer wrote:Cover saves don't help you in close combat.

Or against (AP 5) flamers.

Though if you're within flamer range, your opponent is generally screwed.

depending on whos turn it is

I got to play against my buddy's (nearly) all Genestealer horde in a tourney last weekend (1500 points). He took the Broodlord and 6 troop choices of Genestealers, a Lictor and there were some Biovores thrown in for anti armor (suprising choice).

Everything entered via Reserve or Flank. The Genestealers were upgraded to have Preferred Enemy (now, very useful in 5th). The downside, which we still debate, is he did not take the upgrade for a 4+ armor save. He gambled that cover would mitigate this (in most cases, it did). However Flamer templates were just brutal on the Genestealers.

Overall, he went 2-1 (lost to my Orks and I was well aware of the Flanking Genestealers). Some luck is definitely involved due to the Reserve/Flank rolls. Against me, he really needed my left flank and rolled a lot of right flanks which gave me a lot of time to shoot Genestealers.

What left the biggest impression on me was the Broodlord. He'd get 5 attacks, hit 5 times (does he get Preferred Enemy as well?) and wound 4-5 times. Very tough model in assault.

Fun and very different playing Tyranid army with the advent of 5th edition.

Yes the Broodlord would get PE if affected by feeder tendrils. Om nom nom!

Tyrannids

Have always rocked.

They rock so much more now!

There are so many ways to crush the foe!

You can buy mobile cover saves in the form of gaunts!

That is bonus enough! Take that Lictor! The fear factor! Brood Lord, Absolutely! Many vital components in the enemy rear are vulnerable to CC, especially things like Hammerheads, Basilisks, big Mek with Shock Attack Gun. It is worth 80 points to be able to jump on them even with the weaker new codex Lictor.

Fifth edition has clarrified tactical functions for different units. And having gaunts as running shields gives a great boost to genestealers and warriors, that do cost a lot otherwise considering their shootability.

I wouldn't go too far with Venom Cannons. Barbed Stranglers are a more logical choice on Carnis. New template rules are absolutely FABULOUS! All models hit! hahaha! And these will shut up the orks and their new lease on life!