over at B&C they seem to have good news for the Sons of Russ

Originally posted by Bjorn the fell-handed on Bolter and Chainsword

Hey fellas,

Hope youve all been well. Ive not been on of late, and for that Ill buy you all a beer.

Anwyays, onto topic. Today, I was at Warhammer world at a doubles tourney between two GW stores, and whilst in the loo,I bumped into Phil Kelly, who then ended up having a ten minute convo with me a some friends in the main hall. Anyways, the topic came onto wolves, and this si what I was told.

- He said it was going to be ready VERY SOON. So, that provides tacit support for our december release, perhaps even earlier.
- On the question of us turning into grey ultras, he said NO! (not like that, but you get the point ) He said the whole Wolf codex will be based around heroic warriors/ individuals, rather than like, tactical squad tarnis' overall involvement or something. The codex will have plenty of sagas, greats stories, beautiful artwork and generally be packed. So, essentially, we are getting the individualism that Wolves are famous for.
- We will be getting shiny new models, as well as probably more wolfy bits as well.

In addition, I got my codex signed by him too

I know these aren't specific rumours,and I apologise for it (he had to leave and write some more of it ) but I just wanted to report this, to try and reassure you guys that they want to make it good; they seem to have the right kind of approach, as well as (if youve seen the guard codex) the will to make a truly broken dex

Happy hunting, and may your roll your rendings!

Bjorn the fell-handed


and here is a link to the thread

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=165236&st=0

Thanks for the info. I'm very interested in seeing how this turns out. For myself, this is the only chapter that has had any real appeal for me.

Yay, and we now know our SM release for the year!

I may actually play Loyalist marines for once. I like how it sounds, anyways.

I've always thought Space Wolves were one of the more interesting Marine chapters, so seeing an update is pretty welcome.

Even if I didn't like them though, seeing the army with the second oldest codex out there get an update isn't a bad thing.

I have no interest in the Puppies, but this should be a good release and much more interesting than the other SM books. Phil K. simply does flavor and concept better than the other designers.

Wolves should be a good book I think. New plastics are all helmetless AFAIK.

Phil Kelly is writing it? AWESOME.

He is my favorite codex author.

And reds8n, hahaha, you can't escape me that easily!

You mentioned Khorne tower of skulls in relation to planet strike.

Is that a new terrain kit, or what? Please let me know as you have piqued my interest.

SW are long overdue for a good dose of awesome, although there have been some nice things coming out of Forge World over the years.

Gonna add my YAY Phil! But its not quite enough to get me interested.

"Temple of Skulls" you mean... AFAIK it's a terrain piece. Now you know as much as me.. more or less anyway , I'm hoping to find out more info "soon".

Of course this could turn out to be utter BS but it's from a source that is normally very very good. The name screams Khorne/chaos to me but I guess the IMperium is pretty heavy on the old skull love too.

There has been discussion that this kit or part of it or an early prototype is in the warriors of chaos book in the colour section, which would tie in with the trend for GW to sneak new/forthcoming stuff into their newer books and articles.

If you go back over the last few years of WD you'll be surprised how often they use or show things that aren't out or perhaps give a little nod towards certain rule changes in forthcoming editions of rules etc etc.

Sorry. [/hijack]

On Topic: Hmmm. Heroic Space Marines by Phil Kelly? Well, this should be interesting.

Off Topic: Temple.of.SKULLZ?
Christ. Would they not make a terrain piece that doesn't feature that part of our anatomy for once?
I mean, what about a Hospice of Femurs?

Aqueduct of Armpits ?

Colon Colosseum ?

Pyramid of Pen.. we'll leave that there thinking about it.

reds8n wrote: Pyramid of Pen.. we'll leave that there thinking about it.

Well maybe for Slaanesh.

I can't wait for the new Wolf codex - mostly so I can "counts as" my way to a non-codex Space Marine force. Like I used to be able to do!

Yea! Great news, I've not bought anything for my wolves since I started converting the AOBR SMs. I eagerly await its arrival.

Damn, and I said I was done with Marines! Ok, well, if this is as good as it could possibly be, then I may have to go for a Wolves army.....

I wasn't tempted by the IG even though they have nice new shiny bits....broken or otherwise! But this (Wolves) may get my money flowing back in the direction of G-Dub for a while.

Demogerg wrote:
- On the question of us turning into grey ultras, he said NO! (not like that, but you get the point ) He said the whole Wolf codex will be based around heroic warriors/ individuals, rather than like, tactical squad tarnis' overall involvement or something. The codex will have plenty of sagas, greats stories, beautiful artwork and generally be packed. So, essentially, we are getting the individualism that Wolves are famous for.

I love this rumor.

It's like saying the IG Codex has infantry and tanks.

Wait, it DOES?!

Did anyone else catch Nick Kyme on Worlds End radio? He mentioned that he's doing an audio book for Space Wolf to be released at UK Games Day. I'd say it's a great time to be a Wolf fan! I'm still hoping for a GDUK release for the Space Wolf dex.

Hopefully they will finish it up soon so we can get to reworking the major races codexes. As cool as the wolves are I don't really think they need the same amount of time that a flagship race does.

Well as soon as they are outta the way, DE are the next oldest in need of an update. Rumor is they will be early next year.

sweet, the Wolves are definitely due a spruce up, ill look forward to it, not from a space wolf army point of view, im happy with my ultramarines, but i may get a couple of the characters to have a go at some display standard painting, i love the wolves colour scheme!

bob

Ooooh, perhaps we can use the SW codex counts-as to make Chaos marines actually similar to the individual, highly-experienced veterans they are supposed to be. I look forward to seeing the rules.

Demogerg wrote:He said the whole Wolf codex will be based around heroic warriors/ individuals, rather than like, tactical squad tarnis' overall involvement or something. The codex will have plenty of sagas, greats stories, beautiful artwork and generally be packed. So, essentially, we are getting the individualism that Wolves are famous for.

So... back to herohammer, is it? I keeed, I keeed

I've always liked the feral, viking feel of the Wolves. I hope they do it justice.

Cruentus wrote:

Demogerg wrote:He said the whole Wolf codex will be based around heroic warriors/ individuals, rather than like, tactical squad tarnis' overall involvement or something. The codex will have plenty of sagas, greats stories, beautiful artwork and generally be packed. So, essentially, we are getting the individualism that Wolves are famous for.

So... back to herohammer, is it? I keeed, I keeed

I've always liked the feral, viking feel of the Wolves. I hope they do it justice.

Back to Herohammer? What you talkin' 'bout, Willis?

Space wolves are currently Herohammer! I see no problem with that as they have been this way for years.

Sometimes I think GW needs a dose of Ritalin and a slap upside the head... we've got a new edition out and a few CORE armies that are in need of an update/overhaul (can you say Dark Eldar? I knew you could...).


Space marines just got an update... not to step on the toes of all you BT/SW/BA/DA people, but I swear, having to wait for a new DE/Eldar/=][= codex for this long is kinda one of those cases where you want to tell those overspecialized baskin robbins SMphiles at GW to actually do something with the other armies they have sitting in their IP bubble. We don't have faction codexes for CSMs, Orks, Eldar, or anyone else for that matter, so why do the SM players need them so badly?

[Insert generic cop out "GW is a business" response here]

Da Boss wrote:[Insert generic cop out "GW is a business" response here]

It's not like Marines sell like hotcakes!

ShumaGorath wrote:Hopefully they will finish it up soon so we can get to reworking the major races codexes. As cool as the wolves are I don't really think they need the same amount of time that a flagship race does.

??? They're about as major as they come. They deserve just as much attention as anything else. In fact, they will receive more because they are among the most popular armies out there, if local opinions and internet rumblings are any indicator.

Protip: they aren't

All I have to say is this: It's about damn time. Having lots of new characters sounds fun too.

Oh, the other question, did he say anything (or does anyone know) if they might be doing plastic long fangs or wolfy predators or anything like that?

Thanks reds8n, I appreciate that!

Rated G wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Hopefully they will finish it up soon so we can get to reworking the major races codexes. As cool as the wolves are I don't really think they need the same amount of time that a flagship race does.

??? They're about as major as they come. They deserve just as much attention as anything else. In fact, they will receive more because they are among the most popular armies out there, if local opinions and internet rumblings are any indicator.

Yes, because there are more space wolf players than tau, necron or tyranid players.

Tau - 2005
Necrons - 2002
Tyranid - 2005

Space Wolves - 2000

1) Space Wolves were the VERY first Codex (1994). Ever. They have been updated once. In 2000.

2) SW are the only Codex that requires the purchase of an additional book to field. Which is still better than a WD army like the poor BA.

3) Since 2000, only TWO "non-Codex" SM Codicies have been released. In the last 9 years. TWO.

3a) 2005 - BT
3b) 2007 - DA

So please, ONE Space Wolf thread without people whining about the Space Wolves getting an update after NINE years of waiting. That would be great.

To those members that still feel the need to whine about an army getting an update after nine years, a pre-emptive "you are a douche".

2000??? I thought it was later than that (2002 maybe). That's absolutely insane! Especially since so many people still use them. And they need an additional book? I didn't know that...

I'm hoping for an accessory sprue similar to that of the Black Templars. 10 torsos, a bunch of different heads and shoulder pads, themed weapons, and then glyphs and runes and whatnot to stick on vehicles.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm hoping for an accessory sprue similar to that of the Black Templars. 10 torsos, a bunch of different heads and shoulder pads, themed weapons, and then glyphs and runes and whatnot to stick on vehicles.

All of that would make me a happy puppy.

dienekes96 wrote:Tau - 2005
Necrons - 2002
Tyranid - 2005

Space Wolves - 2000

1) Space Wolves were the VERY first Codex (1994). Ever. They have been updated once. In 2000.

2) SW are the only Codex that requires the purchase of an additional book to field. Which is still better than a WD army like the poor BA.

3) Since 2000, only TWO "non-Codex" SM Codicies have been released. In the last 9 years. TWO.

3a) 2005 - BT
3b) 2007 - DA

So please, ONE Space Wolf thread without people whining about the Space Wolves getting an update after NINE years of waiting. That would be great.

To those members that still feel the need to whine about an army getting an update after nine years, a pre-emptive "you are a douche".

Er, yeah, what he said...

(And said well indeed!)

ShumaGorath wrote:

Rated G wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:Hopefully they will finish it up soon so we can get to reworking the major races codexes. As cool as the wolves are I don't really think they need the same amount of time that a flagship race does.

??? They're about as major as they come. They deserve just as much attention as anything else. In fact, they will receive more because they are among the most popular armies out there, if local opinions and internet rumblings are any indicator.

Yes, because there are more space wolf players than tau, necron or tyranid players.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are, in two of those cases at least. Wouldn't be surprised if there are not. Regardless, it doesn't mean that they shouldn't get the same treatment every other army out there gets, regardless if you (a general "you" of course) play them or not. This is doubly true given dienekes96's reasons above.

I disagree with the entire premise of 'flagship' races. Lets' put an equal amount of time into everyone. Ultimately that will boost GW's profits if they diversify. Jervis, Phil... Anyone? Anyone? They'd make so much more money and get more players into the game if they thought long term and supported everyone--not totally equally, but at least be a little more balanced than they are now.

Of all the marine chapters they deserve their own book most. BA and DA are 90% the same as the basic marine codex, SW only about 50% in a general sort of way. So its good they're getting the redo.

All preferences on the order of redoing codices are moot since its practically guaranteed. Those preferences have nothing to do with this rumor.

Its interesting to hear that the codex take the approach of focusing on the heroes of legend drawing from the viking slant of SW. I can only imagine that means their veteran sgts will be a crucial component to their rules. Probably with the different special squad rules being directly connected to sgts and characters.

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:I disagree with the entire premise of 'flagship' races. Lets' put an equal amount of time into everyone. Ultimately that will boost GW's profits if they diversify. Jervis, Phil... Anyone? Anyone? They'd make so much more money and get more players into the game if they thought long term and supported everyone--not totally equally, but at least be a little more balanced than they are now.

That certainly is true, its just with limited resources they have to prioritize. 90% of the time that mean marines or imperium centric armies first, xenos later.

My friend ordered 100 Space Wolves Codexes.

He's a funny guy.

since the space wolves are being updated does that mean DA, BA, and BT could get updates too?

The Angry Commissar wrote:since the space wolves are being updated does that mean DA, BA, and BT could get updates too?

I don't see how those would be related. DA, BA, and BT got new codexes relatively recently, SW's codex came out a long long time ago.

The Angry Commissar wrote:since the space wolves are being updated does that mean DA, BA, and BT could get updates too?

No. BA and DA are among the most recent Codexes to be released. I'd hope for a 'Codex Dark Angels Revised' - but I doubt GW will admit that they dropped the ball with them twice in a row.

BT are slightly more likely - but unlike Space Wolves they don't need another book to be fieldable, are much newer and still work reasonably well with the current rules.

I'd be surprised if any of the other Marine armies got Codex books before 6th ed.

my theory was just because those chapters have their own codexes... o well.

And for something totally out of the ordinary, GW has decided to release not 1 but 2 new (Codex's, Codexes, Codeci, Codexi) - Space Puppies and S&M Eldar!

I like what I'm hearing just wish it was something more concrete. Hopefully hero heavy gets away from the Must have HQ Choice for every 750Pts. restriction of the existing Wolves Codex which has always been a pain.

Reecius wrote:Phil Kelly is writing it? AWESOME.

Really? I heard Robin Crudace.

So it'll either be really powerful, or really pointless.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm hoping for an accessory sprue similar to that of the Black Templars. 10 torsos, a bunch of different heads and shoulder pads, themed weapons, and then glyphs and runes and whatnot to stick on vehicles.

.. you wouldn't be upset by more than this though would you ?

'Course not.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Reecius wrote:Phil Kelly is writing it? AWESOME.

Really? I heard Robin Crudace.

He wrote the Guard codex, Phil is defiantly the writer (or at least the main writer) of the Space Wolf codex.

He has said this in a pod cast himself as "very excited about writing it".

H.B.M.C. wrote:'Course not.

Good good.

This is music to a Space Wolf fan's ears. Phil Kelly is their best codex designer and writer and the awesome concept of space wolves has always brought up the best in their artists and miniature designers. It's about time they tap into that potential.

What's even better is that Hammer's started a new, absolutely gorgeous SW army and should have it up to playing well in advance to the codex and then enjoy a new spur of inspiration and building

@padixon - all the more the pity. Guard could have used Phil's efforts far more, considering the scope and impact.

As a Space wolf fan and player, I truly enjoy knowing Phil is behind the wheel. He brings an 'outside the box' thinking to codex and rules writing.

However DD has truly brought up a good point. If any army needed that kind of codex writing ability, it was the guard. However, that was Robin's first codex as the head writer and not the helper, so we still have to wait and see how well he is representing the guard [I also have a guard army as well ]

* doing his little happy dance * just don't it up gw
I just want my exterminator or some kind of Russ please let it be a punisher.

dienekes96 wrote:Tau - 2005
Necrons - 2002
Tyranid - 2005

Space Wolves - 2000

1) Space Wolves were the VERY first Codex (1994). Ever. They have been updated once. In 2000.

2) SW are the only Codex that requires the purchase of an additional book to field. Which is still better than a WD army like the poor BA.

3) Since 2000, only TWO "non-Codex" SM Codicies have been released. In the last 9 years. TWO.

3a) 2005 - BT
3b) 2007 - DA

So please, ONE Space Wolf thread without people whining about the Space Wolves getting an update after NINE years of waiting. That would be great.

To those members that still feel the need to whine about an army getting an update after nine years, a pre-emptive "you are a douche".

i was going to mention this last night, but i passed out before i could finish typing it, woke up this morning and found your post

bravo!

Demogerg wrote:
i was going to mention this last night, but i passed out before i could finish typing it, woke up this morning and found your post

bravo!

True Space Wolf fan.

First off I want to say that all those people saying the Space Wolf book came out 9 years ago, you have your facts wrong. I know this because I remember the Space Wolf Codex came out when I was in grad school, I remember it well.

So that can't be nine years ago.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:First off I want to say that all those people saying the Space Wolf book came out 9 years ago, you have your facts wrong. I know this because I remember the Space Wolf Codex came out when I was in grad school, I remember it well.

So that can't be nine years ago.

Go look at the codex. the copyright on it is 2000. so maybe early 2001 at the earliest but not any later then that.

dashrendar wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:First off I want to say that all those people saying the Space Wolf book came out 9 years ago, you have your facts wrong. I know this because I remember the Space Wolf Codex came out when I was in grad school, I remember it well.

So that can't be nine years ago.

Go look at the codex. the copyright on it is 2000. so maybe early 2001 at the earliest but not any later then that.

I think KK is more responding to the fact that, surely, he can't be that old. He's just feeling his age.

Wow...another codex for the imperium.

So iirc its been SM, Guard then everyone thinks SW? I understand generic SM and Guard but what I dont get is why there hasn't been a xenos release since 5th edition (imo Orks are 4th/5th but more 5th). Don't get me wrong I would love to see SW back on the shelves and the do need a new dex and I understand the resons persented for the update. I just figured GW would switch it up and not have 3 Human/Imperium dex's in a row. Plus it kills the idea of an Angels of Death codex i was hoping for (SW, BA, BT, DA in one dex). I just hope that GW doesn't drop the ball like they did with DA.

Like I've said before, I think it wouldn't be that difficult to just do all codexes at the same time when a new edition comes around.

great to hear that. its the one chapter ive followed since i started.

I just want to see squats and genestealer squats come back.

They are the only marines I have ever played. I still have the WhiteDwarf were they did a codex preview chapter approved article. Issue 231, April 1999! Looking forward to this one.

Everyone is always crying about Xenos. It is not like before the SM dex the releases were Demons and Orks.

The Dark Elder were scheduled to be released earlier, and that would have spread out the Imperial releases, but it took longer to do than they thought because they have to completely re-do the entire line of minis, so it got pushed back some.

The Dark Eldar and Space Wolves codexes are the oldest and need to be re-done, and they are the next ones to be released after IG, so people just need to deal with that.

If it makes you feel any better, we should not see another Imperial codex for a while.

The point that all the imperial hate comes from is around the time they added black templars, demon hunters and witch hunters, and redid chaos and gaurd. It left a lot of xenos players feeling pretty second string.

If Phil writes it, it's always good. He displays that sort of balance that none of the others could hope to achieve.

A monkey would've done better than Robin. He makes Thorpe blush.

Well, isn't he the Newbie at Games Dev? If so, we should be nice to him.

Really?

Why?

I suppose a case could be made to criticize the 'editor' instead, but really....

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:If Phil writes it, it's always good. He displays that sort of balance that none of the others could hope to achieve.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

Good one. You should become a comedian!

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Nofasse 'Eadhunta wrote:If Phil writes it, it's always good. He displays that sort of balance that none of the others could hope to achieve.

Hahahahahahahaha!!!!!!

Good one. You should become a comedian!

im so funni i no rite

Again:

RELEASE THEM AT THE SAME TIME SO ALL THE RULES ARE CONSISTENT AND EVERYTHING IS IN BALANCE!

As a xenos player, I feel second string because of all the rules changes that have directly affected, in some cases, the very heart of the army (i.e. fearless=2x more gaunts dead). But I can't whine more than necron or D.E. players. I think we should whine as one and get them to stop this idiotic system of game development.

Codex releases since SW got updated in 2000:

Craftworld Eldar 2000
Tyranids (x2) 2001, 2005
Tau (x2) 2001, 2006
Necrons 2002
CSM (x2) 2002, 2007
Daemonhunters 2003
IG 2003
Witchhunters 2004
Space Marines (x2) 2004, 2008
Black Templars 2005
Eldar 2006
Dark Angels 2007
Orks 2008
Chaos Daemons 2008

I don't care about Xenos/Imperium "splits". I don't play SM or CSM or IG or Daemonhunters. I play Space Wolves.

But if I did care:
Imperium - 7
Xenos - 8
Chaos - 3

So again, I want a new Codex for "my" army. More to the point, I want new models. The ONLY Xenos race that did not get at least a SINGLE release since SW was released is DE (they did get an update in 2003, but I don't count that). Some got two releases. And the DE are getting a full re-do by Jes Goodwin, so I think that is worth the wait, so no sympathy from me.

So when you back away from the whining, actual data (such as releases and dates) is your friend.

And GruntfC, they can't release them all at once. Besides the burden on developers, their business model isn't set up for that.

These days the tables are much more even with regard to xenos/imperial scum, I'll freely admit. I'm just talking about where the sentiment comes from originally. Back then I would have agreed with it.
I'm against seperate marine codices too, but at this stage I know they're happening anyway, and Space Wolves justify their own book far more than Blood Angels or Dark Angels, so I say fine, go ahead.

I like it. Thats all I have to say to this thread.

Well said brother dienekes96, I concur wholeheartedly!

BDJV wrote:Well said brother dienekes96, I concur wholeheartedly!

I agree too, Im sure well get both a space wolf codex and a dark eldar codex this year, and if phil and jes are writing them then they will be excellent! So with a bit of patience and plenty of hype over them im sure theyl be well recieved by both sets of fans?

on the other hand a got a sneaky look at the imp guard codex yesterday and boy is it thin?

bob

This sounds good. If it's really happening this year, I may augment my Deathwing terminator army with a "counts as" space wolves army with an asian theme.

I play only Space Wolves too as my Space Marine army.

A lot of the kids don’t know this, but the Space Wolves were very good (a lot of people say way overpowered) in 3rd edition, but in 4th edition they were weak as kittens.

I remember back in 2004-2005 they were alternating SM codexes with Xenos codexes and they were going to put out one a year. I remember getting upset because at that rate, would have to wait all the way until 2008 to get a new codex. Looking back, boy was I an optimist.

I never realised the wolves had so few codexs.

Oh well treat 'em mean keep 'em keen.

I remember playing against them in 3rd ed and they were horribly unstoppable (granted however I played Tau)

Not played against them recently so can't comment on them under new rules.

While I fully understand why people would want an updated codex, I don't get why the differing chapters need their own dex? Could they not have put enough into the SM dex to suit all chapters? Its not like they don’t have enough RACES and ARMIES to support without splitting them into factions!

By maintaining this methodology in the long run you just piss people off more!

Let me explain, so it’s been 9 years.... ok, say they get a new dex, Yay Wolvies! So what happens with 6th Ed comes out (say in 3 years? Maybve less?) then 7th Ed (maybe 7 years?) and you still don't got another update... guess who's going to be bitching then!

If they combined them into the main Marine Dex you'd be guaranteed to get an update when the marine dex updates, which will be every edition of the rules.

And while I fully look forwards to lots of cool fluff, pretty artwork and tasty figures, I’m not looking forwards to facing new grey and furry cheese (The beards I can stand) which is what’s going to happen when you try and make a “balanced” character full army!

Then again, as has been said before “They are in the business of selling figures, not making balanced rules”

dashrendar wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:First off I want to say that all those people saying the Space Wolf book came out 9 years ago, you have your facts wrong. I know this because I remember the Space Wolf Codex came out when I was in grad school, I remember it well.

So that can't be nine years ago.

Go look at the codex. the copyright on it is 2000. so maybe early 2001 at the earliest but not any later then that.

I didn't say it wasn't printed in the year 2000, I said it can't be nine years ago. Someone's math is wrong

Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

Blackmoor wrote:I play only Space Wolves too as my Space Marine army.

A lot of the kids don’t know this, but the Space Wolves were very good (a lot of people say way overpowered) in 3rd edition, but in 4th edition they were weak as kittens.

True.

They were even better in 2nd ed., though. They were the only SM worth a damn back then.

while i agree that they are in need of a new codex, it's also not as bad as some space wolf players make it seem. yes, the current codex is from 2000 but you can simply use the current 2008 space marine codex without any modification as long as you have an ounce of imagination. you lose the "i'm so special as a chapter i get my own book" feeling but you get to use the new rules. that's what i'm doing with my blood angels since the white dwarf "codex" is so crappy. blood claws = scouts. blood claw bikers = scout bikers. long fangs = devastators. wolf guard = sternguard. wolf priest = chaplain. almost any SW vehicle = same exact SM vehicle. the only model you lose out on is the leman russ tank.

that can't be said of the xenos that are in need of updating. DE? yeah, a dark lance could be a brightlance and warriors could be guardians. raiders /= falcons. talos /= wraithlord. etc. they don't have the easy subsitutions that make them playable as a current edition army. same thing with necrons and tau.

warboss wrote:that can't be said of the xenos that are in need of updating. DE? yeah, a dark lance could be a brightlance and warriors could be guardians. raiders /= falcons. talos /= wraithlord. etc. they don't have the easy subsitutions that make them playable as a current edition army. same thing with necrons and tau.

Why do people keep saying this?

Yes the DE codex is old but unlike the SW book it was a done-in-one with all the rules in one place. I've played against them and they are still competetive.

Sure people might WANT a new book but it's not like L&D or come of the Chaos Legions where you literally CANNOT use the army you bought.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:

warboss wrote:that can't be said of the xenos that are in need of updating. DE? yeah, a dark lance could be a brightlance and warriors could be guardians. raiders /= falcons. talos /= wraithlord. etc. they don't have the easy subsitutions that make them playable as a current edition army. same thing with necrons and tau.

Why do people keep saying this?

Yes the DE codex is old but unlike the SW book it was a done-in-one with all the rules in one place. I've played against them and they are still competetive.

Sure people might WANT a new book but it's not like L&D or come of the Chaos Legions where you literally CANNOT use the army you bought.

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play. chaos legions can be played as is AFAIK. just because someone cheesed out a iron warrior army with 4 heavies doesn't mean they can't simply choose three of them to field (other than the basilisk). as long as the vast majority of the figs are playable they're not abandoned. i've played/collected niche armies in the past (thinking about my armored compay long gone and looking at my speed freek army post on sale here on dakka and ebay!) and have paid the price when the rules changed and the flavor/feel/effectiveness of the army became something i didn't like. the only army GW has truly dumped were the squats (although the L&D come close). they (L&D) theoretically use the new guard rules combined with some select daemonhunter/witchhunter allies. still doable but definitely a stretch there.

Be careful going down that path warboss. Next thing you know, you'll be saying that all space marines are space marines and don't really need separate codexes because they use different colors and decoration bits! And we all know blue space marines and grey space marines and red space marines and green space marines and black space marines are HUGELY different!

They are. See, I collect space wolves because they are not ultramarines. The reasons they are different from ultras and black templares are

I think most of the anger comes from the fact that the space wolves aren't even a major race. They are a sub race of the marines. Biel tan doesn't get its own book. The blood angels got half of one. I don't see any speed freaks around any more. When GW was making a concerted effort to roll up secondary offshoot armies into the big books (salamanders, catachans, goffs, raven guard, etc) they all of a sudden decide to devote full time and energy to an army that has a miniscule following compared to several of the major races that need a total overhaul to function in fifth. A miniscule race that by all rights should have gotten the same treatment as the others given GWs "streamlining" plan.

Space wolves probably have a fraction the playerbase the Tyranids do. Same with the Tau. Even the Necrons have them beat pretty soundly. The only "major" race they compete with is the dark eldar, and thats because they are functionally broken with god awful models that can't be purchased (much the same as the space wolves).

It's not that they didn't need a new book. Just not a full development cycle for what amounts to the case of the "only marine subchapter that escaped."

To be fair, SW had a MUCH larger player base than Tyranids back in the day. Tyranids were a small, niche army until the 4th edition codex. Meanwhile, SW were highly popular in 2nd edition and still a popular army during 3rd.

That's probably changed now, but the reasons for that are fairly obvious. This is coming from a longtime Tyranid player with no real interest in SW, BTW.

Actually< the SW are coming back and they will start the cycle of balance by becoming a renegade/chaos chapter.

Seriously, they need to do this:

Make the Dark angels just another Codex chapter.

Make Black Templars a part of the upcoming Forces of the Imperium Codex. Just put all of the inquisition in one place.

Then they need to introduce an adeptus mechanicus SM Chapter that can play Frankenstein to the BA vampires and the SW werewolves.


This would leave room in the devlopement cycle for:

A LatD/Forces of Chaos combined Book

A New Race(Dwarves)

A faster update cyle

While you may be right that players that currently play Space Wolves may be a fraction of the Nids playerbase, I would say:

a) There used to be a much larger base of Space Wolf players. They've had a separate list since 2nd Ed. and have long been an extremely popular marine army; and

b) There are a lot of players who have Space Wolf armies on shelves collecting dust and waiting to play them again.

Just because you don't see the Space Wolf armies out there doesn't mean they're not there.

*Edit: Dammit. Ninja'd by gorgon.

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

Death By Monkeys wrote:
a) There used to be a much larger base of Space Wolf players. They've had a separate list since 2nd Ed. and have long been an extremely popular marine army; and

b) There are a lot of players who have Space Wolf armies on shelves collecting dust and waiting to play them again.

Just because you don't see the Space Wolf armies out there doesn't mean they're not there.
.

In the past I've been reliably informed that around 2nd edition era the Space pups were amongst the if not the actual top selling line of the 40K range.

I think the nids really took off, no surprise really, with the release of the plastic gaunts, which went alongside the plastic (revised) warriors and genestealers. Marines aside they were amongst the first of the races it was possible to build a list that covered the whole spectrum from fluffy to nasty at a reasonable $/£/shiny objects cost .

Add to that the plethora of players who had ASC warriors, stealers from Hulk etc and they quickly became an easy 2nd army for hoary old ...err.... I mean experienced and wise generals, to build quickly for not much initial outlay.

I'd say that in 3rd edition as well the fact they were one of Andy Chamber's favourite armies didn't hurt much either.

Took a big boost in the much more dark setting of the 3rd and subsequent editions too.

The much less garish colour schemes-- damny you 2nd edition ! -- helped too I think.

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

Amen, preach on Brother!

To all the complainers about the puppies getting a new codex, just look at it like this. After this Dec, you will not see another SW codex for another 8 years (if history is any indication). So you will have lots of time for all the Xenos armies to get done.

Personally waiting for a Tau redo, but smiling at the possibilities of SW. They are the only marine chapter I will ever consider playing.

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

So each space marine "flavor" needs its own full-blown codex for this? They each need their own pages and pages of fluff that, in some cases, even outnumbers those of entire galactic species? I've seen the current SW codex. There's nothing in there that couldn't be done in a couple of WD articles just like the BA.

reds8n wrote: In the past I've been reliably informed that around 2nd edition era the Space pups were amongst the if not the actual top selling line of the 40K range.

I'll buy that. I'd have to check my old 2nd ed.-era GT results, but I'm almost positive that SW players tended to outnumber all other SM players put together (at GTs at least). And they probably outnumbered Tyranids 4 to 1 or more.

I think the nids really took off, no surprise really, with the release of the plastic gaunts, which went alongside the plastic (revised) warriors and genestealers. Marines aside they were amongst the first of the races it was possible to build a list that covered the whole spectrum from fluffy to nasty at a reasonable $/£/shiny objects cost .

Add to that the plethora of players who had ASC warriors, stealers from Hulk etc and they quickly became an easy 2nd army for hoary old ...err.... I mean experienced and wise generals, to build quickly for not much initial outlay.

They did, although I think that the real boom was with 4th edition and Nidzilla. Nidzilla made Tyranids easier to play, easier to collect and paint, and was a beast on the tabletop.

The much less garish colour schemes-- damny you 2nd edition ! -- helped too I think.

LOL. That too. Even if you put the studio 'Eavy Metal team-painted army on the tabletop, it'd receive a horrible reaction now. There's no getting past the bright blues and purples mixed into a sea of red-orange.

stonefox wrote:
So each space marine "flavor" needs its own full-blown codex for this? They each need their own pages and pages of fluff that, in some cases, even outnumbers those of entire galactic species? I've seen the current SW codex. There's nothing in there that couldn't be done in a couple of WD articles just like the BA.

You obviously haven't read the space wolves codex that closely. Besides part of the rumors makes them even more of a deviation from the
Codex Astartes.

Their stats aren't exactly the same. Where their units are on the FOC isn't the same. The general abilities that different squad special rules represent aren't the same. Alot of their basic units are distinctive from their counterparts in Codex: Space Marines.

The only real similarity is that they wear power armor.
They have some of the same vehicles but some that are unique.

BA and DA are far more closer. The differences between these two and the Space Marines codex could each fit on a single page for the army and a couple for special characters. SW would struggle to be summarized in a similar way as a WD article. BA and DA could easily be incorporated into the main Marine codex, but SW really can't.

stonefox wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

So each space marine "flavor" needs its own full-blown codex for this? They each need their own pages and pages of fluff that, in some cases, even outnumbers those of entire galactic species? I've seen the current SW codex. There's nothing in there that couldn't be done in a couple of WD articles just like the BA.

QFT

GW just needs to realease on Chapter Astartes codex, that lists the BA,DA,SW,BT and maybe some new ones. Each chapter can have a little fluff and their own special rules even. then just have one giant wargear section that brings stuff up to speed with 5th ed.

I have been a SM player since I started way back when, and would much rather see updates to the major races codecii, then multiple SM codecii!

Codices!!!!

Index? Indices. Codex, Codices.

Cortex? Cortices. Vertex? Vertices. Vortex? Vortices....

I lose my mind.

Blackmoor wrote:

warboss wrote:

agreed. my point is that all is not as bad as space wolf fanboys make it seem. they have a codex that they can easily use that is specifically designed for this edition. as for L&D and chaos, they're still playable but just without 50-75% of the flavor/cheese that made the armies fun/effective to play.

You don't understand that it is all about the fluff/flavor of the army. If I wanted to play Space Marines, I would play Space Marines. I am a Space Wolf player, and I want to play Space Wolves.

lol, you say you want fluff/flavor but what you're actually asking for is crunch/rules. the two are not the same. my point was that SW players can play an effective 5th edition force with simply the space marine codex. i'm not saying don't come out with a SW codex (heck, i'm hoping my blood angels will get the same treatment but i'm not holding my breath), i'm simply saying that a subset of space marines (SW) who in turn are a subset of the imperium shouldn't get a codex before other entire races when they have a viable alternative they can use.

<armchair miniatures businessman>

frankly, i'm not a fan of a 5th edition codex for a single chapter. i'd prefer if GW came out with craftworld eldar/armageddon/eye of terror type books that gave 4-5 armies a unique list. for instance, a "Codex: First Founding" book with the changes and characters needed for the space wolves, imperial fists, blood angels, and salamanders (not DA since they have a relatively current book although i wouldn't be opposed to including them). another could be a chaos legion book for the original chaos marines. if the book's page count was similar to the 5th ed SM book, that's still enough room for crunch and fluff for a few chapters. plus, it would sell minis a heck of alot faster as several line subsets would get a boost.

</armchair miniatures businessman>


@scotty:

good example. i might actually remember that.

armies flow into popularity with the strength and customizability of the current codex.

did you know necrons were around in 2nd edition?

they had like 3 or 4 different models, and the army sucked, so no one played them.

what would you say the most popular armies are right now... aside from codex marines i would venture to guess orks.

they have a strong codex with lots of good options.

what do space wolves have right now? (in terms of army design)
rhino/razorback/land raider mech---- been there done that.
drop pods---- cant assault out of a pod. this makes good use of counter-attack and the ability to take lots of plasma.
footsloggers---- not very competitive, power armor can only do so much
Wolf guard deathstar---- too many points for 1 or 2 killy units that only have 1 would each.

there has been no reason to START a space wolf army for years, no new models that werent just space marine models with a sprue of wolf bits.

when the new codex comes out, and the new models are released im sure you will see a large influx of wolfy players. not to mention of a Ton of returning armies.

The cat is already out of the bag. By previously giving the variant chapters their own Codexes, er, Codeci, er... their own book, them seem to have this mindset that they can't put the cat back in the bag. But, CSM were just 'appendix lists' apparently, and they're cool dropping those.

Personally, I'm glad the CSM Legion rules disappeared. And I'd be happy if the loyalists were reduced to one or two books.

Codex Astares
Take the 5th edition SM codex, and add:
Command Squads can have jump packs
HQ Lemartes, who comes with Death Company
HQ Tycho
HQ Dante
HQ Mephisto
HQ Belail, which lets Terminators be taken as troops
HQ Azrael
HQ the DA librarian

You don't even need Master of the Ravenwing, since the generic captain lets bikes be troops.

Then, do a Codex: Non-Codex Marines that would cover BT and SW. They're pretty similar, both being more close-quarter and hand-to-hand SM armies, that rely on getting numbers across the board more than getting a few units quickly across the board.

To you people who want all the other races fixed before another space marine codex comes out. I am a space wolf player I love the fluff and the versatility of the wolves and the pic of my avatar is my skin. There has been loads of xenos since the last SW codex came out. Why don't you wait 2 editions of the game to go buy before you get another one? The tau got two necrons got two eldar got one orks got one the de are in the pipe supposedly give it a rest. The tau shouldn't get one till volume VII if the wolves are any indication of how things are going. I play chaos deamons, chaos space marines, guard, and 3 codex marine chapter's. Your codexes will come out when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

Demogerg wrote:
when the new codex comes out, and the new models are released im sure you will see a large influx of wolfy players. not to mention of a Ton of returning armies.

QFT

Untill the new Codex comes out, my 6k+ Wolves are patiently sitting in a box on my shelf waiting, waiting.

Also the new marine Codex wouldn't make a good Wolf army, much too different.

when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

most of you "adults" have been playing space wolves since back when they were a relevant chapter that for some reason was a flagship army. The squats are gone, harlequins got folded in with the eldar.

The space wolves should have been folded in with the rest of the non codex chapters. Not gotten their own full book. Maybe a shortdex or a series of white dwarf articles, but not a full on hundred page deal. They aren't big enough, important enough, or special enough. So what if they were the first codex? They're just another chapter of marines, just another 1000 dudes.

This thread is stagnating. What we really need is a flame war!

ShumaGorath wrote:

when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

most of you "adults" have been playing space wolves since back when they were a relevant chapter that for some reason was a flagship army. The squats are gone, harlequins got folded in with the eldar.

The space wolves should have been folded in with the rest of the non codex chapters. Not gotten their own full book. Maybe a shortdex or a series of white dwarf articles, but not a full on hundred page deal. They aren't big enough, important enough, or special enough. So what if they were the first codex? They're just another chapter of marines, just another 1000 dudes.

Thanks Shummy!

ShumaGorath wrote:
The space wolves should have been folded in with the rest of the non codex chapters. Not gotten their own full book. Maybe a shortdex or a series of white dwarf articles, but not a full on hundred page deal. They aren't big enough, important enough, or special enough. So what if they were the first codex? They're just another chapter of marines, just another 1000 dudes.

they do not follow the Codex Astartes, they may be much more than 1000 dudes. please read http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236094.page#667532 Gwar and i are having a discussion right now about space wolf chapter size.
also, they have lost companies, who do not conform to the 12 Great companies of the standard space wolf chapter, and are considered separate from the space wolves, but are not heretics. not to mention the 13th company.

the heirarchy of the space wolves is completely different from normal space marines.

i dont want this thread to be reduced to personal attacks, but saying things like army "X" is not special/imporant or anything along those lines is just BEGGING for a fight.

sonofruss wrote: Your codexes will come out when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

there's always one in every nice discussion.

The rest of the non-codex chapters were NOT folded in for 5th.

The army is unique, distinct, and has a strong following and hobby footprint. You can whine and tell me to buy TWO books for my list (and pretend that makes sense), or you can tell me to proxy a list from SM (something I could easily do...as could DE or Orks or [insert army here]). Fair enough...I hope your army gets cancelled and you get herpes. This is a business...SW will sell. And sell well. GW designers like the army concept, as do BL writers, and they clearly draw hobbyists' interest.

dashrendar wrote:
GW just needs to realease on Chapter Astartes codex, that lists the BA,DA,SW,BT and maybe some new ones. Each chapter can have a little fluff and their own special rules even. then just have one giant wargear section that brings stuff up to speed with 5th ed.

I have been a SM player since I started way back when, and would much rather see updates to the major races codecii, then multiple SM codecii!

I agree with this aproach whole heartedly. It worked for Eldar with Craftworld Eldar, it would work just as well for "Astartes Space Marines". Shoot I would like to see some love given to my Raven Guard.


GG

warboss wrote:

lol, you say you want fluff/flavor but what you're actually asking for is crunch/rules. the two are not the same. my point was that SW players can play an effective 5th edition force with simply the space marine codex. i'm not saying don't come out with a SW codex (heck, i'm hoping my blood angels will get the same treatment but i'm not holding my breath), i'm simply saying that a subset of space marines (SW) who in turn are a subset of the imperium shouldn't get a codex before other entire races when they have a viable alternative they can use.

Xenos races can use the Space Marine book just as well as Space Wolves can. Counts as goes both ways. I mean, didn't you read Malfred's how-to post a couple weeks ago? People play Space Wolves because they don't want to play Codex Marines. A viable race should not have to use a viable alternative. Dark Eldar are the only ones that deserve a redo before Space Wolves, but that is not what the powers that be decided, so it ends up in my favor this time. I feel for DE players. Do my Necrons need a reboot? Definitely, but their book is much newer than the dogs'. Tyranids? Boo freaking hoo, they had their party with Nidzilla for quite a while. Why should Space Wolf players wait 15 years (maybe a couple less) for a book of their own? Because that is how long it will take to go through all the other races that you feel are more deserving before it becomes their turn.

generalgrog wrote:I agree with this aproach whole heartedly. It worked for Eldar with Craftworld Eldar, it would work just as well for "Astartes Space Marines". Shoot I would like to see some love given to my Raven Guard.

GG

It doesn't work. You end up with 5 lists, which has 2 that are utter junk, 2 that are okay, and one that is obviously superior to anything else. And at the end of the day, they're really not that different, and it's usually a matter of emphasizing Unit X by making it a little better. Honestly, I'm quite fine with losing the Craftworlds and just saying, "if you want Altaioc, play with a lot of rangers. If you want Iyanden, play with a lot of Wraithguard and Wraithlords", provided that rangers and wraithguard are competitive. A lot of the 'variant' army lists tried to make fluff Unit X worth fielding, because in the main codex, it was sub-optimal. Just get the point costs and rules balanced, and people will field it.

I play SWs, and I'm anxiously awaiting the new codex and new minis. They have a big following, and I bet that Adepticon 2010 is the 'year of Russ'. But, the differences between SWs and SMs are a lot less than the differences between SMs and Tau. Or Lost and the Damned. Or Dark Eldar.

GW is a business, they need to make money. SWs will make them money. Partially because they don't have to do a whole new figure line, it'll be an accessory sprue, and some blisters and maybe a box for a new Bjorn (one can hope). But, partially, because it's a fairly popular army.

But, I would rather see GW put their efforts and resources into making 'different' armies. Lost and the Damned, Ad-Mech, a new Grey Knight codex, etc. Armies that, by their nature, play significantly different. SWs play different than SMs, but not 'lots' different. Not the way that Lost and the Damned are different - a cheap, T3, no save to 5+ (at best), horde army with some big gribblies and some little gribblies and maybe some looted tanks.

ShumaGorath wrote:

when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

most of you "adults" have been playing space wolves since back when they were a relevant chapter that for some reason was a flagship army. The squats are gone, harlequins got folded in with the eldar.

The space wolves should have been folded in with the rest of the non codex chapters. Not gotten their own full book. Maybe a shortdex or a series of white dwarf articles, but not a full on hundred page deal. They aren't big enough, important enough, or special enough. So what if they were the first codex? They're just another chapter of marines, just another 1000 dudes.

But, but, but...they were around since way back then like those other dudes! Don't remind me that other mini-armies and squats were also gone! I want my totally-different-space-marine-chapter-because-I-just-can't-stick-with-normal-SMs-or-spiky-marines!!1 I swear it's not because of the overpowered rules back then, it's totally because of the background. But because of this background I just can't make my own conversions and choices from available codices to make up the background but instead need to be force-fed my own own army list to make choices from in a totally-different codex! Forget that spiky marine chapters all had to do with one book and now that's all gone too. I deserve my own codex. (It's not the overpowered rules I want, though.)

warboss wrote:

sonofruss wrote: Your codexes will come out when gw want them to come out so quit wining about this, most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

there's always one in every nice discussion.

I am a troll ? This is a space wolf rumor thread the trolls are the ones whining they don't have a new codex. so I am far from a troll.

Rated G wrote:

Xenos races can use the Space Marine book just as well as Space Wolves can. Counts as goes both ways. ***SNIP*** Why should Space Wolf players wait 15 years (maybe a couple less) for a book of their own? Because that is how long it will take to go through all the other races that you feel are more deserving before it becomes their turn.

so you're saying it's pretty much just as easy for a tyrannid player to use the space marine book as a space wolf???? wow...

i'm not disagreeing with you that space wolves deserve their own entry. i'm just saying that they don't deserve it more than other chapters or races. yes, it's been a while since they had a spankin' new army list and models but they don't need a 64+ page codex to do it when they're just one of dozens of marine chapters with models (albeit one of the founding ones). gw needs to cover more bases with each hit; releasing a codex for a single chapter subset of an army that just got a codex won't do that. i've pretty much said my peace in this thread guys so feel free to carry on without fear of my stinging retorts! en guard!

warboss wrote:

i'm not disagreeing with you that space wolves deserve their own entry. i'm just saying that they don't deserve it more than other chapters or races. yes, it's been a while since they had a spankin' new army list and models but they don't need a 64+ page codex to do it when they're just one of dozens of marine chapters with models (albeit one of the founding ones). gw needs to cover more bases with each hit; releasing a codex for a single chapter subset of an army that just got a codex won't do that. i've pretty much said my peace in this thread guys so feel free to carry on without fear of my stinging retorts! en guard!

Why quit the discussion? It's remained relatively civil as far as Dakka goes.

Why don't they deserve it more? Everyone, save, the Dark Eldar have a newer book. Space Wolf players shouldn't be to blame just because some races got erased and some races got boned in the new edition. Space Wolf players have made due with having to use multiple books for years. Would I be satisfied with a solid White Dwarf list? Sure. I expected that to be the case after the BA. Would I be satisfied with sub-chapters being in one book? Sure. But that just doesn't fit the GW business model anymore, ie Chaos.

I have yet to see any real evidence from anyone who thinks the Space Wolves need to wait another half decade for their own book. Why do other races deserve it more? Because they are not imperial? That's just silly. People need to quit thinking in a imperial/xenos paradigm and start considering the armies everyone else plays. Everyone else, minus DE, have had much more recent updates and will be done when it is their turn.

And my comment about xenos counts-as was a bit tongue in cheek. Check out Malfred's april fools post if you haven't, its good for a chuckle.

stonefox wrote:But, but, but...they were around since way back then like those other dudes! Don't remind me that other mini-armies and squats were also gone! I want my totally-different-space-marine-chapter-because-I-just-can't-stick-with-normal-SMs-or-spiky-marines!!1 I swear it's not because of the overpowered rules back then, it's totally because of the background. But because of this background I just can't make my own conversions and choices from available codices to make up the background but instead need to be force-fed my own own army list to make choices from in a totally-different codex! Forget that spiky marine chapters all had to do with one book and now that's all gone too. I deserve my own codex. (It's not the overpowered rules I want, though.)

Yes, damn all those people that used to have armies with rules. Squats and LatD got what was coming to them. Certainly they are all stupid cheesy power gamers. Why can't they just use their *imagination* for rules? I for one can't wait for Codex: counts as all SM chapters and renegade CSM, as well as Codex: counts as tyranids, kroot, and orks. Hopefully dark eldar can get folded in with eldar in the next book, and inquisitors can count as imperial guard advisors! You should work for GW!

EDIT: but of course I agree with you that SM players are/were a lot better off than... everyone else, when it came to codexes. The unfortunate thing is that while there are full-fledged codexes to represent chapters that still follow the codex astartes to some degree, there are not codexes to represent things like LatD, Adeptus Mechanicus, or traitor legions, who all have such different organization that they would need a whole codex to properly represent.

Dronze wrote:Sometimes I think GW needs a dose of Ritalin and a slap upside the head... we've got a new edition out and a few CORE armies that are in need of an update/overhaul (can you say Dark Eldar? I knew you could...).


Space marines just got an update... not to step on the toes of all you BT/SW/BA/DA people, but I swear, having to wait for a new DE/Eldar/=][= codex for this long is kinda one of those cases where you want to tell those overspecialized baskin robbins SMphiles at GW to actually do something with the other armies they have sitting in their IP bubble. We don't have faction codexes for CSMs, Orks, Eldar, or anyone else for that matter, so why do the SM players need them so badly?

Eldar? They got a 4rth Ed. codex and one of the newer 4rth edition codexs to boot! If you want to be annoyed, be annoyed that they brought out 5th ED Vanilla rather than updating the 3rd Ed. SW codex. Stop raining on our parade!

stonefox wrote:[I've seen the current SW codex. There's nothing in there that couldn't be done in a couple of WD articles just like the BA.

Same with DE, Necrons, Tau, Nids, Inquisition, or any other army someone wants to see updated to 5th.

Scottywan82 wrote:Codices!!!!

Index? Indices. Codex, Codices.

Cortex? Cortices. Vertex? Vertices. Vortex? Vortices....

I lose my mind.

Sadly GW seems to use codexes almost exclusively.

temprus wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:Codices!!!!

Index? Indices. Codex, Codices.

Cortex? Cortices. Vertex? Vertices. Vortex? Vortices....

I lose my mind.

Sadly GW seems to use codexes almost exclusively.

I'm sure it's so they can copy write the term.

BDJV wrote:I'm sure it's so they can copy write the term.

Or maybe even copyright them.

ph34r wrote:

BDJV wrote:I'm sure it's so they can copy write the term.

Or maybe even copyright them.

LOL, Brainfart!

Marines are marines are marines. Who cares? They all die to plasma love/breath of chaos. Once you know that, you know all you need to know.

sonofruss wrote:most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

So what you're saying is that people who don't want another Space Wolf codex before other Xenos codices aren't adults?

Please click on the link to Rule #1 in my signature. Even if you disagree with what people say, it's no call to be rude.

Thank you.

Frazzled wrote:Marines are marines are marines. Who cares? They all die to plasma love/breath of chaos. Once you know that, you know all you need to know.

Ha! I prefer the "volume of fire" method myself (except for those dirty, low down "feel-no-pain" guys; they deserve plasma!).

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:RELEASE THEM AT THE SAME TIME SO ALL THE RULES ARE CONSISTENT AND EVERYTHING IS IN BALANCE!

Except that, that means 40k gets one big year, and then nothing until the next refresh, which goes completely against the "constant cash flow" model that GW is currently pushing.

GW simply doesn't have the resources to do this, unless you're willing to accept much simpler army lists like in the 40k3 rulebook or the 40k2 Army Book.

And quite frankly, such "balance" wouldn't be any better, even if GW attempted to minimize changes to keep things "in balance". Most likely, more "bad" stuff would slip through the cracks in the mad rush to get the Army Book together.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Grunt_For_Christ wrote:RELEASE THEM AT THE SAME TIME SO ALL THE RULES ARE CONSISTENT AND EVERYTHING IS IN BALANCE!

Except that, that means 40k gets one big year, and then nothing until the next refresh, which goes completely against the "constant cash flow" model that GW is currently pushing.

GW simply doesn't have the resources to do this, unless you're willing to accept much simpler army lists like in the 40k3 rulebook or the 40k2 Army Book.

And quite frankly, such "balance" wouldn't be any better, even if GW attempted to minimize changes to keep things "in balance". Most likely, more "bad" stuff would slip through the cracks in the mad rush to get the Army Book together.

I agree, I think it really just amplifies the bad mistakes. You can't knock GW for wanting a normal business model, how would you like it if your stock was only worth any thing once every 5 years. But to add to what you were saying John, if they only did one huge book that everyone had to purchase, A) they'd probably rehash the edition more often forcing you to buy every 3 years and B) Charge you that much more for the book.

warboss wrote:
i'm not disagreeing with you that space wolves deserve their own entry. i'm just saying that they don't deserve it more than other chapters or races. yes, it's been a while since they had a spankin' new army list and models but they don't need a 64+ page codex to do it when they're just one of dozens of marine chapters with models (albeit one of the founding ones). gw needs to cover more bases with each hit; releasing a codex for a single chapter subset of an army that just got a codex won't do that. i've pretty much said my peace in this thread guys so feel free to carry on without fear of my stinging retorts! en guard!

I think they deserve it more just on the basis of being distinctive. I mean the argument that they be folded into another codex with other marines is based on the assertion that they are similar enough, when the opposite is true. They are the least like the other and thus would offer a more distinct contrast to Codex: Space Marines, and if you're going for variety than they do trump other space marine variants.

sonofruss wrote:I am a troll ? This is a space wolf rumor thread the trolls are the ones whining they don't have a new codex. so I am far from a troll.

You're not a troll. Anyone discussing any other army and why they should get done are the trolls.

Iorek wrote:So what you're saying is that people who don't want another Space Wolf codex before other Xenos codices aren't adults?

Actually, I'll take that on. This entire thread is very frustrating to me as a longtime Dakkaite and a hobbyist. As I pointed out using earlier using release dates, the SW Codex release is following a rules release for (CAPS alert - for emphasis) EVERY SINGLE XENOS (and non-BLOOD ANGEL) ARMY IN THE ENTIRE RANGE. Data is your friend.

So yes, I am saying that while certain members might technically be adults, their behavior in this thread is petulant and childish and frustrating. Allow me to elaborate. I've been at Dakka since 2001. I've never been a member of an online forum at any point in which MY ARMY (my most direct touchstone to this hobby) is getting an army release. I've seen (and participated in) numerous threads for other armies, and I've never seen the argument of "deserves a release" pop up in any pre-release or rumor threads except those for SM and now SW. I've always been happy for other hobbyists when their army gets redone, sharing enthusiasm and excitement. I'm happy to criticize GW's business model in threads designated to discuss that element of the hobby. I'm happy to tackle "deserves" (which is an absurd concept outside of any consideration besides BUSINESS) in those threads. But on this forum (and on warseer), every single SW thread for the past year or so has been infested with this worthless, needless debate.

And it boils down to some members deciding they (or some metric that supports their paradigm) should be the arbiter of what armies "deserve" a release (typically their own) and which ones don't (someone else's army). It's the e-forum equivalent of only agreeing to play if they get to pick the sport. It's childish. It's selfish. It's immature.

So lo and behold, someone starts a thread at Dakka titled "Space Wolves Codex Rumor". It's on page 2 already, before I read it. I didn't count the posts and their respective comments before mine, but my first one isn't about interests and plans, it's about release schedules, pointing out that the army certainly does merit a release. I effectively am handcuffed to a useless and pedantic debate not present in IG, or Eldar, or Tyranids, of even Chaos Space Marines. I'm tired of the debate. I am an analyst. I deal in facts. I shared facts about release dates, numbers, and schedules to illustrate my point. FACTS. Members of this forum, some of them even acquaintances or friends, basically troll by ignoring the topic of the thread "Space Wolves Codex Rumor" to share their thoughts on why I should not get an army release for my army. And this is accepted and defended. They share not factual data to back up their POV. Merely opinion, anecdotal and limited experience, or a generic rant.

And I'm really, really, REALLY sick of it. I'm a fairly nice guy. I try and respectful of others on the board. I don't mind having these debates elsewhere. But if other members are going to be a douche about my army getting a potential release after 9.5 years, then I'm going to be a dick about it.

Really, the Big Problemo poeple have is with the sheer volume of codex's being releasd for the Imperium. I am all for the Wolves (Coolest GW Chapter, IMO!). I would much rather direct my whineing at these targets:
Dark Angels: Really, codex marines w. the Deathwing. 1 Special character required, not a whole codex.
Inquisition: 1 Codex required. Have all the options for both, and have a rule for picking Order, then you choose the suitable troops.
Black Templars: Counts as Wolves?

dienekes96 wrote:I've never been a member of an online forum at any point in which MY ARMY (my most direct touchstone to this hobby) is getting an army release. I've seen (and participated in) numerous threads for other armies, and I've never seen the argument of "deserves a release" pop up in any pre-release or rumor threads except those for SM and now SW. I've always been happy for other hobbyists when their army gets redone, sharing enthusiasm and excitement. I'm happy to criticize GW's business model in threads designated to discuss that element of the hobby. I'm happy to tackle "deserves" (which is an absurd concept outside of any consideration besides BUSINESS) in those threads. But on this forum (and on warseer), every single SW thread for the past year or so has been infested with this worthless, needless debate.

QFT

The problem with SW being one of the the next two codices is game stagnation.


Heck, five of the last seven 40K codices have been human oriented. Yes, I'm counting SMs and Chaos SMs as human.

They need to break it up a bit more, something like commiting to never have back to back Imperium or human based army releases ever again.

Frazzled wrote:Marines are marines are marines. Who cares? They all die to plasma love/breath of chaos. Once you know that, you know all you need to know.

Ain't it great when the MODS go a trolling

Iorek wrote:

sonofruss wrote:most of us are adults grow up and get a grip.

So what you're saying is that people who don't want another Space Wolf codex before other Xenos codices aren't adults?

Please click on the link to Rule #1 in my signature. Even if you disagree with what people say, it's no call to be rude.

Thank you.

No what I was saying that in the last three space wolf rumor threads people complain that we don't need a new space marine codex.
My favorite army gets a rumor that it is coming soon after a long wait. All the other codexes have been put out some of them multiple times.
So I said grow up and wait your turn. I was simply stating that they where acting like a kid who had his lolly taken away give it time and your turn will come.

Honestly, Wolves might be on my to-do list (Army #7, Yay! Maybe I should say they have some Lamentors as Allies...)

dienekes96 wrote:

Iorek wrote:So what you're saying is that people who don't want another Space Wolf codex before other Xenos codices aren't adults?

Actually, I'll take that on. This entire thread is very frustrating to me as a longtime Dakkaite and a hobbyist. As I pointed out using earlier using release dates, the SW Codex release is following a rules release for (CAPS alert - for emphasis) EVERY SINGLE XENOS (and non-BLOOD ANGEL) ARMY IN THE ENTIRE RANGE. Data is your friend.

So yes, I am saying that while certain members might technically be adults, their behavior in this thread is petulant and childish and frustrating. Allow me to elaborate. I've been at Dakka since 2001. I've never been a member of an online forum at any point in which MY ARMY (my most direct touchstone to this hobby) is getting an army release. I've seen (and participated in) numerous threads for other armies, and I've never seen the argument of "deserves a release" pop up in any pre-release or rumor threads except those for SM and now SW. I've always been happy for other hobbyists when their army gets redone, sharing enthusiasm and excitement. I'm happy to criticize GW's business model in threads designated to discuss that element of the hobby. I'm happy to tackle "deserves" (which is an absurd concept outside of any consideration besides BUSINESS) in those threads. But on this forum (and on warseer), every single SW thread for the past year or so has been infested with this worthless, needless debate.

And it boils down to some members deciding they (or some metric that supports their paradigm) should be the arbiter of what armies "deserve" a release (typically their own) and which ones don't (someone else's army). It's the e-forum equivalent of only agreeing to play if they get to pick the sport. It's childish. It's selfish. It's immature.

So lo and behold, someone starts a thread at Dakka titled "Space Wolves Codex Rumor". It's on page 2 already, before I read it. I didn't count the posts and their respective comments before mine, but my first one isn't about interests and plans, it's about release schedules, pointing out that the army certainly does merit a release. I effectively am handcuffed to a useless and pedantic debate not present in IG, or Eldar, or Tyranids, of even Chaos Space Marines. I'm tired of the debate. I am an analyst. I deal in facts. I shared facts about release dates, numbers, and schedules to illustrate my point. FACTS. Members of this forum, some of them even acquaintances or friends, basically troll by ignoring the topic of the thread "Space Wolves Codex Rumor" to share their thoughts on why I should not get an army release for my army. And this is accepted and defended. They share not factual data to back up their POV. Merely opinion, anecdotal and limited experience, or a generic rant.

And I'm really, really, REALLY sick of it. I'm a fairly nice guy. I try and respectful of others on the board. I don't mind having these debates elsewhere. But if other members are going to be a douche about my army getting a potential release after 9.5 years, then I'm going to be a dick about it.

For a quick summation non point by point response:

You're army deserves an update, it's not important enough financially to GW, doesn't have the player base, and isn't important enough storyline wise to deserve its own full book. It should get another halfjob like it had last time. Like specialty sub armies should all have since they are neither full products nor flagship releases.

Space wolves are bitey marines. Why do they deserve so much more than:
fast orks
dead eldar
black marines
iron warriors
ALL OF THE OTHER CHAOS SUBCHAPTERS WHICH ARE EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT AND DIFFERENT
and all those other subarmies that got the shaft

Why do they deserve a 70+ page opus when raven guard get to live with one page? When the White Scars are now generic marines? When the tyranid codex has 10 times its playerbase and is functionally broken? When the Tau codex is likely to be shorter once this thing comes out and is fairly unplayable? When the necron codex is a joke? When the witchhunters book is an even bigger joke?

The marines and guard deserved and needed updates. The Space wolves Deserved a really nice PDF or a 20 page minibook like they had last time. Not a third (or likely more) of a years development.

Thats "our" (mine) argument.

GW codex/army book updates are like bingo with half the spaces taken by SM and Chaos. You may get lots of updates, you may get shafted, for years as SW and DE have been.

Complaining that GW is wasting a slot on some other army that only merits a "nice PDF" when they could be working on one you like more really doesn't add much to a rumors thread about an upcoming list.

A rumors thread with no rumors except a confirmation that they are getting the royal treatment.

dienekes96 wrote:*the sound of a mind snapping in frustration*

Wow Chuck... I've never seen you do that before. I tend to agree actually, that GW's business model will determine what gets made, not what 'deserves' a Codex (Daemons certainly didn't 'deserve' to get their own Codex - they are easily the most unnecessary Codex GW's ever written - but GW saw a market there and made a Daemon army).

And you're right about waiting a long time for your army to get revised. Unlike lunatics such as myself, most people don't go out of their to collect multiple armies. Most people have one or two armies, and if you're a Space Wolf player (such as yourself) and that's all you play, watching a decade go by between new releases for the force you chose is not nice.

And to the people trying to trivialise what Space Wolves are, calling their 'bitey marines' or whatever, please stop. I could just as well call Eldar 'thinner less manly Orks' and demand that they be dropped in place of more Ork releases, or that Dark Angels and Blood Angels be dropped from the line and a few new BA/DA special characters be added to the generic Marine Codex, but I won't because that's stupid. Space Wolves and Black Templars are the only two loyalist Marine armies that differ enough to warrant an actual Codex being written about them - Dark Angels and Blood Angels are both Codex Chapters with a few extra units/special rules - but even with that need, Templars and Wolves are still different from one another. No Marine army works like the Wolves - they most certainly not 'bitey marines'.

The Space Wolves are an important army, they have sold well in the past and if they aren't selling now it's not due to people not wanting them, its due to their age. Their accessory sprue, great when it was made is now primitive by today's standards. Their character models (Ragnar, Ulrik, Njal, Iron Priest etc.) are some of the oldest in the 40K range. Their special Terminators are the old metal style and are out-of-scale with today's, and the only alternative is Forge World. Their special Dreadnought, if you can even still get him, is a giant metal monstrosity. Their Long Fangs are still a hybrid unit. They are an old race, one that was at one stage quite prominent (as Chuck said, they were the first Codex released for 40K). Space Wolves don't deserve an update, they need an update. They need to have their range revitalised. There needs to be a selection of redone special characters (Ragnar especially), and a very new sprue to give us truly unique looking Grey Hunters, Wolf Guard Terminators and so on.

40K needs a Marine alternative that isn't vanilla (like the regular Codex), that isn't in a White Dwarf (Blood Angels) and isn't a vanilla army pretending to be different (Dark Angels and Chaos). The Space Wolves fit that bill.

ShumaGorath wrote:Why do they deserve a 70+ page opus when raven guard get to live with one page?

Because they are a second-tier army that only gets an update every other edition?

Personally, I think that tiering armies by sales is a good thing. The top-selling armies get Codices every edition (and sooner within that edition), while slower-selling armies wait an edition to get new Codices. But at least they get Codices. So armies like DA, BA, BT, SW, SoB (WH), Inq (DH) will get occasional Codices, whereas top-shelf armies like SM, IG, CSM, Eldar, and Nids always get Codices every edition. This allows GW to support more armies than what would be possible under a "every army, every edition" scheme.

Although, the cynic in me is waiting to see if GW will go a step further and make DE the first "third tier" army that will only get updates every third edition... With the emphasis on self-contained Codices, and special-order, that would allow for things like Kroot Mercs, LatD, and so on to be made available for the indefinite future.

ShumaGorath wrote: snip
For a quick summation non point by point response:

You're army deserves an update, it's not important enough financially to GW, doesn't have the player base, and isn't important enough storyline wise to deserve its own full book. It should get another halfjob like it had last time. Like specialty sub armies should all have since they are neither full products nor flagship releases.

Space wolves are bitey marines. Why do they deserve so much more than:
fast orks
dead eldar
black marines
iron warriors
ALL OF THE OTHER CHAOS SUBCHAPTERS WHICH ARE EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT AND DIFFERENT
and all those other subarmies that got the shaft

Why do they deserve a 70+ page opus when raven guard get to live with one page? When the White Scars are now generic marines? When the tyranid codex has 10 times its playerbase and is functionally broken? When the Tau codex is likely to be shorter once this thing comes out and is fairly unplayable? When the necron codex is a joke? When the witchhunters book is an even bigger joke?

The marines and guard deserved and needed updates. The Space wolves Deserved a really nice PDF or a 20 page minibook like they had last time. Not a third (or likely more) of a years development.

Thats "our" (mine) argument.

Orks can still do kos the rules are in the codex.
You can still do dead eldar look at http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/234080.page
The black templars have a newer codex.
The Iron warriors lost there extra heavy support and a bassie but how has that changed? oblit spam and dual lash.
Our point is the space wolves are not codex marines they have a organization completely back wards from a codex chapter.
Space wolves start as blood claws with scout stats and end up as wolf lords or long fangs, and occasionally they get to be wolf guard or scouts how would you do that with the current codex?
I very much doubt that the bugs have that high a player base over the wolves. I know two bug players at my flgs there are three wolf players me included.
the mini books and the multi army codexes are gone the way of the dodo.
I play nurfed armies and will live with the chaos codex till they make the marked army codex.
It is the space wolves turn in the sun kicking and taking names.
I like what they did with the Raven Guard in the last codex it was better than the limited list they had under the old rules.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

dienekes96 wrote:*the sound of a mind snapping in frustration*

*reasonably sensible if slightly pro-wolf skewed stuff*

I would tend to disagree, as I see the dominance of Space Marines as a major problem with 40K.
Of the space marines, Wolves are one of my favourites, and they tend to make for an entertaining game. So I'm not against this codex being released, it doesn't bug me. I got my update, I don't care. I still hold that marines should be confined to one book though. And I'd like to see Chaos done as a combined arms book that had LATD, Marine and Daemon elements. This makes the most sense to me.
It's all sideways to the point of the thread, but when there is this much exasperation out there over something, it's good to think about why that might be the case.

I completely agree with dienekes96 and HBMC, they have really hit the nail on the head.

The Iron warriors lost there extra heavy support and a bassie but how has that changed? oblit spam and dual lash.

So space wolves are more different from regular marines then iron warriors are from chaos.

I now anoint this new round of my stick is bigger than your stick.

ShumaGorath wrote:For a quick summation non point by point response:

You're army deserves an update, it's not important enough financially to GW, doesn't have the player base, and isn't important enough storyline wise to deserve its own full book. It should get another halfjob like it had last time. Like specialty sub armies should all have since they are neither full products nor flagship releases.

Space wolves are bitey marines. Why do they deserve so much more than:
fast orks
dead eldar
black marines
iron warriors
ALL OF THE OTHER CHAOS SUBCHAPTERS WHICH ARE EVERY BIT AS IMPORTANT AND DIFFERENT
and all those other subarmies that got the shaft

Why do they deserve a 70+ page opus when raven guard get to live with one page? When the White Scars are now generic marines? When the tyranid codex has 10 times its playerbase and is functionally broken? When the Tau codex is likely to be shorter once this thing comes out and is fairly unplayable? When the necron codex is a joke? When the witchhunters book is an even bigger joke?

The marines and guard deserved and needed updates. The Space wolves Deserved a really nice PDF or a 20 page minibook like they had last time. Not a third (or likely more) of a years development.

Thats "our" (mine) argument.

I'll bite.

I'd love to see your basis for the business assumptions you are making. The "it's not important enough financially to GW, doesn't have the player base" add-on to your existing argument for which all of the data appears to be in your head. Clearly, the company making the release schedules feels it is financially important enough, and I'll make the deduction they have more data than you. They also assigned the games designer responsible for some of their most popular Codices to it's development and writing. Onto the story criticality...I have no idea what you are talking about. If story is relevant, then I'll rebut by saying that Dan Abnett is widely considered their best writer at BL...and he is writing the SW Heresy book. Which they are making an EVENT out of, unlike the other HH releases. So there is that.

Furthermore, your solution (a PDF) is a release method completely UNUSED by the company. They released a WD list once for the BA, and they specifically said they would not do so again.

Your fundamental issue is completely based on your paradigm ...what you consider major/flagship armies. Interestingly, you also stated the SW being the first Codex had no relevance. Considering many militaries calls the first ship of each class the "flagship", I could argue that SW are very clearly a flagship army. They have been a favorite of several generations of GW rules designers - Chambers to Kelly. And of GW writers - Bill King to Abnett.

So maybe they are getting the royal treatment...because they ARE a flagship release, if not in materials/time needs (as the DE are), but in interest. Since the company doesn't do "updates", they do army releases. And SW are due. More than due.

Da Boss wrote:slightly pro-wolf skewed stuff

It's strange that you say that because I've never had any real interest in the Space Wolves. I'm interested in the modelling prospects a new release will bring, but that's about it. The closest I have ever had to a Space Wolf army is the three or so Space Wolves I have in my Deathwatch army. For a long time I actually disliked the Wolves because I was a hard-line Ultramarine player who saw any deviation from the Codex as an affront to the Emperor. The only time the Wolves have ever truly interested me was with the 13th Company, as the narrative scope there was huge.

If I sound pro-Wolf it's not because I really think that Space Wolves will be the best next Codex but because I'm a proponent of variety and scope. Space Wolves, being so utterly alien to vanilla Marines when it comes to fighting style, add that variety.

Da Boss wrote:I would tend to disagree, as I see the dominance of Space Marines as a major problem with 40K.

I got over that fact and moved on a while ago. Games Workshop wants to make money and stay in business. Space Marines are their biggest seller. It's just good business to keep them prominent and dominant. But, if we're going to be stuck with Marines being one in every two or three releases, then let's at least make them as different from one another as possible. Again, here is why Space Wolves (and Black Templars) are good armies to keep up to date with their own Codices (and why more Codex Chapters like Raven Guard and Crimson Fists are not).

Da Boss wrote:And I'd like to see Chaos done as a combined arms book that had LATD, Marine and Daemon elements. This makes the most sense to me.

As a Lost & The Damned player, and one who adored the last Chaos Codex for its variety, scope and flavour (not to mention the ability to field my $1200 worth of Daemons along side my Chaos Marines as actual daemons, not those generic pieces of gak we have now), I agree with you. Armies of heretics and traitors (not Marines) are the most common type of enemy in the fluff (along with Orks), yet they have no army to represent them. They did, for a year or so, but then they went away again. Rolling them into a real Chaos Codex, and dragging the Daemons back into the book where they belong, would be a great thing.

But don't get your hopes up. GW is more about splitting armies up into mono-dimensional forces (Demons or Chaos, never both) or forces altered only by the presence of Special Characters (Marines, Dark Angels). I dread what's going to happen to my previous Inquisitorial forces when they get around to re-working them into Codex: Grey Knights and Codex: Sisters of Battle. When that happens I'll have another army of mine shelved thanks to the idiots at GW.

Da Boss wrote:It's all sideways to the point of the thread, but when there is this much exasperation out there over something, it's good to think about why that might be the case.

A very good point!

ShumaGorath wrote:

The Iron warriors lost there extra heavy support and a bassie but how has that changed? oblit spam and dual lash.

So space wolves are more different from regular marines then iron warriors are from chaos.

I now anoint this new round of my stick is bigger than your stick.

Yes they are not a codex chapter they don't follow the codex so why shouldn't they have there own book.
space wolves have different rules from the codex chapters. Blood claws are not assault marines they are better and worse than the assault marines. They get more attacks and have larger numbers but there attacks don't hit as often. Grey hunters can use a bolter and a ccw. They don't have Sargents they have wolfguard that are better and worse than the sarg one they cost more in the current codex I pay 60 pts per wolfguard that buys two assault cannons in the new marine codex. Trying to pdf the codex won't work you can't fit a ton of feathers in a five pound bag
Iron warriors are a undivided legion they follow the undivided codex they have minor changes from the old rules but still viable as a army.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

If only he wasn't being sarcastic.

Puppies get a new dex, my bookshelf gets a new resident. I play DA, I have since second, and just started Salamanders. I loved the Angels of Death book, great idea to get 2 armies in a single codex. I believe the only people with a right to complain are the DE players, they are long due for their time in the sun.

I'm really sorry if this was already posted, but I was wondering: Considering the Guard got the shaft with the $22 boxes, will SW's get it up the butt too?

Also, I have regular SM guys also, so could I intersperse them throughout the Space Wolves I already have (not just grunts, but dreds or bikes too?)?


-A.

Edit: WOOT! 100 posts!

So your pissed that the Wolves are getting a new codex. You play Xenos (doesn't matter which one). Lets just see how soon your day in the sun is.

Deamons
Dark Eldar
Eldar
Tau
Necrons
Tyranids

Those are the obvious Xenos armies. But lets expand just a hair and add in the others that have other stuff than just marines.

Deamon Hunters
Witch Hunters
Chaos

Assuming each codex takes 6 months to work out, spin the damn bottle and see what comes up next. Saying such and such is newer so it doesn't get revised means drek. Chaos has seen 3 codexs since wolves and DE saw their first. Who knows, maybe Orks or IG will see another update in 3 years. If your pet army comes up last on the xeno's redo order and assuming not a single Space Marine list comes out until each Xeno's list is redone that puts you at... ohh... 4 1/2 years.

Now don't you feel just a little bit stupid complaining about 6 months. The wolves codex has pushed you back to 5 years instead of 4 1/2. Hell, we probably will be into 6th edition before your codex comes out. That development might just push you back to the 6 year waiting period.

The over all problem is the rate at which GW puts out the new books. Two a year with a special event thrown in. Some (maybe even BA or DA) probably wont see a revision this edition. You can only hope that your pet army shows up someplace on the radar sooner than later. Or you could be in last place and know just what it is to be a current SW or DE player.

Vladsimpaler wrote:As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

I feel your pain.

I agree though the Wolfs need a much needed overhaul.

InquisitorFabius wrote:

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

If only he wasn't being sarcastic.

Puppies get a new dex, my bookshelf gets a new resident. I play DA, I have since second, and just started Salamanders. I loved the Angels of Death book, great idea to get 2 armies in a single codex. I believe the only people with a right to complain are the DE players, they are long due for their time in the sun.

I'm not complaining.

I'm just disappointed that the Wolves are getting this cool new codex (which I feel they deserve) but then Imperial Guard, well, don't.

Just some new guy who doesn't know what he's doing.

Again, to reiterate, I'm not angry. Not in the slightest.

Jayden63 wrote:Chaos has seen 3 codexs since wolves and DE saw their first. Who knows, maybe Orks or IG will see another update in 3 years.

If your pet army comes up last on the xeno's redo order and assuming not a single Space Marine list comes out until each Xeno's list is redone that puts you at... ohh... 4 1/2 years.

The over all problem is the rate at which GW puts out the new books. Two a year with a special event thrown in. Some (maybe even BA or DA) probably wont see a revision this edition.

Chaos, Orks, & IG are core armies, so they will all see updates within the next 3 to 5 years. DE was a very poor release and will be lucky to see a release within the next 3 years (i.e. during 5th Edition).

The problem with your 4-5 year timeline is that you assume that GW is still eager to have every army gets a redo within each edition. As GW has demonstrated, second-tier Codices do not receive that luxury, and appear to skip editions. So it is entirely possible that most of the second tier Codices will go 7 to 10 years between updates, whereas first tier Codices will be updated on a 3 to 5 year schedule.

GW appears to do 3 Codices a year, plus something "big", which isn't too bad of a pace, I think. It's just that we were really spoiled by 3E when GW was *forced* to accelerate the Codex release schedule. Besides, if GW were to accelerate the Codex pace back up to 5 Codices per year, that would mean a 40% reduction in the time they could spend doing whatever playtesting and balancing they currently do...

Jayden63 wrote:that would mean a 40% reduction in the time they could spend doing whatever playtesting and balancing they currently do...

I seriously lol'd IRL. They need to stop doing in house playtesting, instead give out rules to people who will actually find ways to break the armies. You can't find everything, but I think it would do a great deal to help with the rules.

However, I may be incorrect, and they may outsource some playtesting to players. But if they do, they need to expand it to more than the UK crowd because it's an entirely different gaming culture.

Off-topic-The wolves should have gotten the release slot that the IG currently got and the IG should have waited untill next year.

I like the wolves. Cool back story and the only SMs that I like.

Problem is that we are going through a human dominated release period and its killing the game. You know GW messed up going for the most bang for the buck by releasing so many SM books in the last three years when you go into a store and there are six players there not playing because they all have SMs and are tired of playing each other. Its times like this that playing xenos scum can make you popular.

This doesn't happen every where but regional affinity for certain armies does exist here in the US. When you combine this regional affinity with a repititious and boring release schedule it ends up driving people away from the game in certain areas.

I,IMHO, think GW should alternate between human and xenos and run a campain every year for the armies released. Just my take on it.


On-Topic- Any credible rumors about the Wolves?

Space wolves are cool. I can't believe anyone would want to deny them an updated codex. I dont and never will play them.

The reason space wolves get a new codex is cause they get updated models. You cant cram all the marines together cause they all have so many different models. If you dont need different models you will never get regular rules.

Someone said raven guard only get one page. I say wut? What differnet model do they even need? Shrike plus what?

The previous rumors were the removal of the exterminator but with gw retooling the russ I don't know.
As to too much human in the resent past my flgs has been packed with gamers playing 40k.
There are 5 or 6 human players the rest xeno our problem is table space, we are playing larger battles with fewer points per person.

This was posted by Dosadi at Warseer a while back and is the only rumor with any detail so far.

I do know that some playtesting has certainly been done and is ongoing.

Blood Claws are armed with BP&CCW, frag & krack and can take special weapons or PF/PWs. Furious Charge instead of berserker charge. Minimum squad size is 10 and they can go as high as 20. WS goes up to 4 but BS stays at 3.

Grey Hunters are armed like Chaos marines (i.e. everything). No more True Grit, but Counter Charge stays for this unit; can take an assortment of special weapons or PF/PWs. Squad Leader is a wolf guard with options like a vet sergeant from CA

Jump pack Blood Claws are a separate entry now.

Wolf Guard are split into two squad types - terminators and power armour.
All wolf scouts can infiltrate or come on from any table edge.
Long Fangs stay as is as far as I know. Probably picking up a BP& CCW in addition to their big guns.

Dreads and ven dreads go down to WS4, but Bjorn is back as a special character. I don’t know if they can be HQ.

I wish I knew more.

Sorry BDJV, but Dosadi's rumours are without merit or truth. Everyone knows GW doesn't playtest.

I'm excited for a new SW 'dex regardless of new rules, the Wolves were gonna be my Army until I couldn't get a hold of the 'dex, none in Store and the Online store was sold out back in '07. I still have some of the Grey Hunter doubling as Chaos Marines.

As much as I'd dislike having two SM armies, the Renegades and SW, I might just have to have them both.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Sorry BDJV, but Dosadi's rumours are without merit or truth. Everyone knows GW doesn't playtest.

What was I thinking?

Vladsimpaler wrote:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
Anyway I checked with a friend of mine who once changed planes in England and he tells me that the new Space Wolf Codex is going to have some of the best models you've ever seen, art that really captures the look of the army and rules that are fantastic. He says everyone will want to start a new Space Wolf army.

As an Imperial Guard player, reading stuff like this makes me feel insanely ripped off.

And well it should. Let me tell you my buddy is never wrong about these things.

dienekes96 you slay me! "Get Herpies"! Laugh!

But seriously, Part of me is glad the Pups get a new codex, cause then there will be some new sprues and they have always been my favourite for cool conversion bits, but part of me can't help but also feel that releasing them as a seperate codex is bad juju, other armies need a new codex more.

But as has been pointed out its a commercial decission and I'm sure the pups WILL sell, even at butt rapping prices!

Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however....

Question:

Druidic wrote:other armies need a new codex more.

How do you determine need? Isn't 'need' in this context just a euphemism for 'deserve'?

Druidic wrote:Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however...

Then we'd have two Chaos Marine Codices - each one as lifeless and boring as the next, just one has less spikes.

Need, Want, Deserve, effectively the same....

Are you trying to say SM and CSM are the same? I'd never noticed! .

Remove the cool "Different" stuff from CSM and you get SM, which is effectively what they have already done... you could even argue why not release an Uber Marine Codex covering all chapters codex, non codex and "Naughty"

There is argument from a commercial perspective that Marines are hugely more popular then any other race or faction (and have been since day 1!) and that therefor it makes sense to pimp them some more with chapter dex but other then that I can't see the sense in handeling Marines any different to other factions, ie You Get's 1 Book Wiv Everfing In It.... Cope.

Thing is, its been 9 years since the last SW Codex, why even release one at all? Why not allow them to fall into the SM Background like all the other chapters?

Sure they have different Background..... so does EVERYONES chapter (in particular if you make your own)

Sure they work differently.... but unless your worried about competative play, the dex, heck even the rules are only a guideline, bend, nay BREAK them to have fun!

Sure they have cool figures, they are even still available or shock horror convert your own, like everyone with a different chapter already does!

I'm not anti SW, I like them, they are cool, hells teath my WIFE'S a closet viking, I have GOT to like them (or loose teeth) I just dont quite understand why the expenditure of time and effort which I BELIEVE is better spent elsewhere......

GW must believe it makes commercial sense and at the end of the day, that's what drives them... commerce

BDJV wrote:This was posted by Dosadi at Warseer a while back and is the only rumor with any detail so far.

I do know that some playtesting has certainly been done and is ongoing.

Blood Claws are armed with BP&CCW, frag & krack and can take special weapons or PF/PWs. Furious Charge instead of berserker charge. Minimum squad size is 10 and they can go as high as 20. WS goes up to 4 but BS stays at 3.

Grey Hunters are armed like Chaos marines (i.e. everything). No more True Grit, but Counter Charge stays for this unit; can take an assortment of special weapons or PF/PWs. Squad Leader is a wolf guard with options like a vet sergeant from CA

Jump pack Blood Claws are a separate entry now.

Wolf Guard are split into two squad types - terminators and power armour.
All wolf scouts can infiltrate or come on from any table edge.
Long Fangs stay as is as far as I know. Probably picking up a BP& CCW in addition to their big guns.

Dreads and ven dreads go down to WS4, but Bjorn is back as a special character. I don’t know if they can be HQ.

I wish I knew more.

Sounds pretty good. I'm debating starting something new (depending on how much I can get painted this summer). So far these rumours seem pretty reasonable - updating the army to fit with the rules but keeping the core intact. Hopefully Wolves will get access to the Redeemer and other new SM stuff that got left out of Codex: BA/DA.

With CSM armament, True Grit is basically redundant anyway - make as well get rid of a special rule if you can.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Druidic wrote:Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however...

Then we'd have two Chaos Marine Codices - each one as lifeless and boring as the next, just one has less spikes.

Isn't that what we have currently? Or am I the only person who dislikes the fact that they took out Chapter Traits to replace it with a pseudo Chapter Traits if you take our heroes and play herohammer. Cause personally I liked 4th Ed Marines better, and current Vanilla Marines are just as bad if not worse than the Renegades Book.

Also directed at some one from earlier in the thread about a BA leading the BT, how is that any different than Running Calgar with the Raven Guard, or a home brew chapter, which is completely legal in the 5th Ed Marine book.

The way I see it, Space Wolves NEED a new codex. I believe that there is a difference between NEEDing something and WANTing something. The wait for Codex Space Wolf has been a long one, almost as long as the Ork Codex (wasn't that something like 11years?).

I am currently holding off my true scale marine project due to this codex coming out. Space wolves were my first army, I still have the first codex for them somewhere. I am super stocked that they may and hopefully will get a new sprue or two like the Black Templar's.

The other issue that I feel has been lost in this thread is the fact that unlike the Blood Angels/Dark Angels the Ultramarines and their Space Marine off spring is that they, for the most part, follow the Index Astartes. They have followed the organizational pattern set before them by Guilliaman. The Wolves and the Templar's have a different organizational structure and in my mind they need different books to show their prominent distinctions.

anyway, bring on the Wolves, they have been the coolest of all marine chapters and I'd love to do them true scale!!

Now all I have to do is wait, might as well collect the bits I need and be ready when they drop =D

BrotherStynier wrote:Isn't that what we have currently? Or am I the only person who dislikes the fact that they took out Chapter Traits to replace it with a pseudo Chapter Traits if you take our heroes and play herohammer. Cause personally I liked 4th Ed Marines better, and current Vanilla Marines are just as bad if not worse than the Renegades Book.

I'm right with you as far as the special character thing goes - I don't know why that, for example, in order to play Salamanders you have to bring Heman to every battle, or why, in the DA Codex, Belial has to tag along to every engagement the Deathwing undertake. Why it couldn't be "Salamanders - Replace Chapter Tactics with X, and, oh, here's a cool non-mandatory special character if you choose to play Salamanders". The cynic in me says "So they can sell special character models", but the cynicn in me always tends to draw Shumagorath into any thread I say that in, so I won't say it.

But on the bright side, at least Marine players can play their Chapters, even if they have to bring a named character to every battle to do so. Chaos didn't get that luxury. I'll take mandatory non-special Special Characters that give Legion rules over no Legion rules thanks.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

BrotherStynier wrote:Isn't that what we have currently? Or am I the only person who dislikes the fact that they took out Chapter Traits to replace it with a pseudo Chapter Traits if you take our heroes and play herohammer. Cause personally I liked 4th Ed Marines better, and current Vanilla Marines are just as bad if not worse than the Renegades Book.

I'm right with you as far as the special character thing goes - I don't know why that, for example, in order to play Salamanders you have to bring Heman to every battle, or why, in the DA Codex, Belial has to tag along to every engagement the Deathwing undertake. Why it couldn't be "Salamanders - Replace Chapter Tactics with X, and, oh, here's a cool non-mandatory special character if you choose to play Salamanders". The cynic in me says "So they can sell special character models", but the cynicn in me always tends to draw Shumagorath into any thread I say that in, so I won't say it.

But on the bright side, at least Marine players can play their Chapters, even if they have to bring a named character to every battle to do so. Chaos didn't get that luxury. I'll take mandatory non-special Special Characters that give Legion rules over no Legion rules thanks.

I see you point, on that issue, though it was the Characters that drove me to move my army to Chaos. I could do what I wanted better with the Renegade list than with the Vanilla dex, and I can come up with some interesting personal fluff to fill in a lack of Chaos fluff and to have the army make sense.

But yeah your idea of what they could have done would have been better than what they did, though I still miss the ability to infiltrate with two Plasma Guns or Meltas. Regardless of how cheesy the red shirts say it was.

but the cynicn in me always tends to draw Shumagorath into any thread I say that in, so I won't say it.

I exited when the "my army is the only special sub army that deserves to exist because i'm old and it used to be relevant" brigade started shouting that the space wolves were more important than iron warriors/iyandan/speed freaks/white scars/tau/necrons/tyranids "just because".

Hell, I play none of the armies involved and know only one person that does. My codex came out 2 codexes ago and a third of my playgroup plays guard.

I just don't think they deserve a full release given that they are at best half an army. Wooooo your special space marines because you're bitey and have gray armor. So much more special than the space mongols or alpha legion or any of those other special armies that "deserve" a release.

tl/dr ITT selfish baawwwwwwwing

But on the bright side, at least Marine players can play their Chapters, even if they have to bring a named character to every battle to do so. Chaos didn't get that luxury. I'll take mandatory non-special Special Characters that give Legion rules over no Legion rules thanks.

You know what deserved a 70+ page full codex? The legion book. Not the grey—bite marines.

@Shuma and HBMC

I think that I and obviously both of you agree that while special characters for diversity of army selection are, not on the surface, desirable occurrences, they do allow for differing army builds and while this as the only option is not optimal it is far better than having no option at all ie: chaos.

I purpose an idea (which is ludicrous as even if it is universally excepted it doesn’t matter) that there be 1 C:SM and 1 C:SM Alternative (BA,DA,BT,SW,WS,SAL,IH). and 1 C:CSM and 1 C:CSM Alternative (WE,TS,EC,DG,AL,NL,WB).

ShumaGorath wrote:You know what deserved a 70+ page full codex? The legion book. Not the grey—bite marines.

We all know how you feel, can we please move on as the repeated posting of your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with SW rumors.

Druidic wrote:Can't help but think it would have been better to put ALL the Marine Varients in the Marine Codex however....

But why stop there? Put CSM and Necrons in the Marine codex as well and give them each a page and a special character for Bad-guy Marines and Robot Marines.

People talk about how SW historically have been just a flavor of Space Marines, and as such are irritated to see that they get any kind of attention. Stop thinking about SW's as Gray Marines. Get past the idea that because in the past they were mostly aligned with Vanilla Marines in terms of game rules and organization, then that's all they ever will be. A new SW codex represents an opportunity to create an army with an altogether new feel, flavor, and style. It doesn't have to be just a slight variation from the Vanilla codex. SW's can be as distinct and enjoyable as a completely new faction, just with the familiar S4/T4/3+ stat-line. The army has the potential to be as different from C: SM as C: CSM, or C: Necrons. (Yes, they'll almost certainly share some of the same vehicle units as SM... but then again, so do CSM's. )

Hopefully GW is approaching the project as chance to think outside the box and create a distinct new entity, and not something like C: DA where other than Deathwing/Ravenwing, you could create a better DA army with C: SM. I know, I know, it's GW so all bets are off. But if Phil Kelly is the lead developer, then there is a real good shot at SW's being very different from SM's.

If you stop thinking of SW's as SM's, then you can see the opportunity to essentially add a new army to the game, and as a result, a great deal of value to 40k as a whole. You would think that was a good thing.

Bodichi wrote:@Shuma and HBMC

I think that I and obviously both of you agree that while special characters for diversity of army selection are, not on the surface, desirable occurrences, they do allow for differing army builds and while this as the only option is not optimal it is far better than having no option at all ie: chaos.

I purpose an idea (which is ludicrous as even if it is universally excepted it doesn’t matter) that there be 1 C:SM and 1 C:SM Alternative (BA,DA,BT,SW,WS,SAL,IH). and 1 C:CSM and 1 C:CSM Alternative (WE,TS,EC,DG,AL,NL,WB).

That would be better than what we have now, I suppose...

BDJV wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:You know what deserved a 70+ page full codex? The legion book. Not the grey—bite marines.

We all know how you feel, can we please move on as the repeated posting of your opinion has absolutely nothing to do with SW rumors.

There are no space wolf rumors in this thread. If there were I likely would have left the nerdrage to one comment then mentioned that I fear the hands of the books authors. If the vendetta and the manticore can make it though you can be sure that they won't notice flyingabbadonjetbikebattlecanon McPointbeard who will inevitably be 40 points too cheap. Given the power level of the last wolf dex I can only imagine what kind of beard this thing will have. The book will be growing hair.

If you stop thinking of SW's as SM's, then you can see the opportunity to essentially add a new army to the game, and as a result, a great deal of value to 40k as a whole. You would think that was a good thing.

They're quite different. They're not that different. I for one am not entirely of the opinion that another marine codex and army benefits 40k as a whole. We already have 3 (holy marines, spikey marines, regular marines).

ShumaGorath wrote:They're quite different. They're not that different. I for one am not entirely of the opinion that another marine codex and army benefits 40k as a whole. We already have 3 (holy marines, spikey marines, regular marines).

I would have thought you'd be among the first to point out that GW shouldn't produce a codex based on what benefits the game, but what benefits their bottom line.

They see a product that was very popular before and has upside in the current environment, so it's kind of easy to understand why they greenlit it. As Dienekes said, they also put their best designer on the project, which also probably says something about how GW views their potential.

Again, I'm not interested in SW. But I can completely see how they'll be a big release for GW if handled right.

I would have thought you'd be among the first to point out that GW shouldn't produce a codex based on what benefits the game, but what benefits their bottom line.

I believe the two are one and the same. A bland overmarined game in my mind is bad for the bottom line. It can be a put off when everyone has the same army even if the minutiae is different. Variety is the spice of life, and while space wolves are a new variety of marine thats still another variety of the thing that makes up half of the game already. When they devote so much development time for something like this they lose development time for fixing the broken major races, which ends up bleaching the game in a different way as people begin to shelve their nonhuman armies due to their own issues.

focusedfire wrote:
Problem is that we are going through a human dominated release period and its killing the game. You know GW messed up going for the most bang for the buck by releasing so many SM books in the last three years when you go into a store and there are six players there not playing because they all have SMs and are tired of playing each other. Its times like this that playing xenos scum can make you popular.

Emphasis mine.

I have to disagree. Here's the release order of the last four years (from Wikipedia):
Tyranids
Black Templars
Tau
Eldar
DA/BA
CSM
Orks
Daemons
SM

So, discounting the BA WD codex, over the last 4 years, you've had 3 Imperial codices out of 9 releases. If you count CSM's as human, then you've had 4 of 9. So, let's assume for a moment that the next army after IG are SW's. That means 5 of 11 codices released over a full five calendar years are Imperial. And twice during that period, 3 out of 4 codex releases were NOT Imperial.

So I empathize with you if the game scene in your area suffers because army popularity skews toward Imperial/Human. But I don't think that is because of the release schedule. And I certainly don't think it's a good reason NOT to redo the SW codex.

Cheers

ShumaGorath wrote:They're quite different. They're not that different.

Again, I believe they have the potential to be that different because of their background. More so than BT's, DA/BA, or even GK. That's up to GW though.

ShumaGorath wrote:I for one am not entirely of the opinion that another marine codex and army benefits 40k as a whole. We already have 3 (holy marines, spikey marines, regular marines).

But now we can have feral marines!

Seriously, you have a good point and I don't altogether disagree. But I suspect that, for better or worse, the marketing data shows that the masses continue to yearn for S4/T4/3+ armies. If so then perhaps the best we can hope for is a radically different MEQ army. Fingers crossed.

Seriously, you have a good point and I don't altogether disagree. But I suspect that, for better or worse, the marketing data shows that the masses continue to yearn for S4/T4/3+ armies. If so then perhaps the best we can hope for is a radically different MEQ army. Fingers crossed.

Who knows, if it fits well enough I could use them as the counts as basis for my space sharks. Shrikes guard is good, but not that well fitting.

Asmodai wrote:Sounds pretty good. I'm debating starting something new (depending on how much I can get painted this summer). So far these rumours seem pretty reasonable - updating the army to fit with the rules but keeping the core intact. Hopefully Wolves will get access to the Redeemer and other new SM stuff that got left out of Codex: BA/DA.

Reasonable? Sounds dull to me. These rumors make it sound like they're essentially saying, "Hey SW Players - just use the CSM Codex, but make sure you tell your opponents which models count as what!"

Good to see my prediction that people would use the "GW is the business!" argument a lot, like they always do whenever this is issue is discussed.

Woot.

HBMC: Sorry for putting words in your mouth. I actually agree with most of what you said though- of the variants, the Wolves are the best. I could tolerate Wolves, Templars and Codex marines. Just about.

Those rumours don't look that exciting though. I want to know what the army wide special rule is, and what funky cool stuff they are getting. What's their Mob Rule, or Orders?

Ubermosher, you make an interesting and valid point. It depends on how they decide to play the Spacewolves redux, and even how they decide to title the codex.

Put it this way, they have an opportunity to make a distinct and different codex which will allow Marine Fans to do another Marine Army which has different stuff in it but is not Vanilla, Spikey or Holy..... a fourth "Furry" chapter.... who don't neccessarily need to be furry!

You could title it something like "Pre-heresy Marines".... After all basically Vanila marines are a creation of Guiliman post heresy, but the Space Pups refused to accept that and kept their own organisation, which could be considered reflective of an earlier (or just plane "different") style.

I think peoples objection to "Codex Space Pups" goes something along the lines of "Whats so special about space pups which means they deserve so much development time when BA/DA/BT/Etc don't?"

If GW instead go down the "Vanilla or Not Vanilla" route that sort of goes out the window....

Shame, cause of course they have already missed that boat which sailed some months ago!

Asmodai wrote:
Hopefully Wolves will get access to the Redeemer and other new SM stuff that got left out of Codex: BA/DA.

Actually I hope they don't.... that would be really REALLY bad, cause then you go back to the "If you want to play Marines, better play Spacewolved cause they get all the stuff marines have plus 2 pages of extra rules which make them better for free" mentallity which would REALLY hack me off big time!

I never did get why they got a whole page of extra rules for free? Why!

Of all the armies I've played and collected since "Rogue Trader", none have had the same buzz or held my interest so intensely as the Wolves.
I am glad to be having a new 'dex. I've waited long enough.

OT: Anyone know if we'll be getting Teleport back? Seems a bit daft having terminators can only really use Drop Pods as a deep Strike option.

The designers are bad at their jobs?

sonofruss wrote:
Our point is the space wolves are not codex marines they have a organization completely back wards from a codex chapter.
Space wolves start as blood claws with scout stats and end up as wolf lords or long fangs, and occasionally they get to be wolf guard or scouts how would you do that with the current codex?

Umm, use the SM codex and take scouts w/BP CCW? Take Termies as WG in Termi armor? Take tacs as grey hunters? Tace devs as Longfangs?

About the only difference between a Codex SM force and a SW force on the field is that the SWs tend to be more fighty. The rest is fluff, not function. So maybe CCWs added to all models at +1 point/model. How does that *need* a totally different codex?

Seriously, I understand the fans like SWs and GW wants to sell SWs, but crying that boohoo we can't make a SW army right now is a little disingenuous.

I am waiting to see if SWs are really good (in which case marines and CSMs will start counting as SWs) or suck (in which case SWs just use C:SM anyway).

jmurph wrote:
About the only difference between a Codex SM force and a SW force on the field is that the SWs tend to be more fighty. The rest is fluff, not function. So maybe CCWs added to all models at +1 point/model. How does that *need* a totally different codex?

Thanks for proving my point. Because of the similarity they need a totally different codex. Because of the established fluff you can actually justify a radical new function. Wouldn't you want to face a different army for a change instead of yet another SM variety?

@uber: I hear you, but I don't quite see it. SW *are* SM (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 Sv3+).

Sure, SW are fightier, but fundamentally, they fight and die a *lot* more like SM than Orks / Eldar / Nids / Guard.

And yes SW have the same problem as BA & BT, which is to be fighty but not Chaos-like.

But "totally different"? Give me a break.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@uber: I hear you, but I don't quite see it. SW *are* SM (WS4 BS4 S4 T4 I4 Sv3+).

Sure, SW are fightier, but fundamentally, they fight and die a *lot* more like SM than Orks / Eldar / Nids / Guard.

And yes SW have the same problem as BA & BT, which is to be fighty but not Chaos-like.

But "totally different"? Give me a break.

This is about what I was going to say, albeit it in a more diplomatic way.

In 2nd ed, you had:
Ultramarines (basic)
Blood Angels (assault/fighty/vampires)
Dark Angels (Monastic/termies)
Space Wolves (assault/fighty/vikings)

Now, we have:
Ultramarines (basic, but with special characters you can be fighty, termie, mechanized, drop-pod, bikes, etc. - the only thing you can't be is a vampire or viking. But you can wear robes if you want )
Dark Angels (monastic/termie, but not as good as Ultras)
Blood Angels (assault, fighty, less like vampires)
Black Templars (assault, monastic, run forward at you)
Space Wolves (assault, viking, old old dex in comparison)

Am I missing any SM books? We only added one? Why does it seem like there are more? I personally don't like the BTs that much. I loved them in 2nd, but GW took them as a popular army out of Armageddon, created their fluff from wholecloth, and shoe-horned them into the Marine rotation. I don't see them as that different than DA, BA, or SW.

Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Wolves. If anything, I'd dump BTs use that energy to make the "big 4" work differently/better.

So where is the "new marine paradigm" that makes them potentially different from any of the others?

Space Wolves were different than standard marines in 2nd with all of them being +1 weapons skill. So they were better in CC than any other marines. Maybe, just maybe we'll see a return to something like that.

that would be sweet to have a new space wolfs codex....id buy it

ubermosher wrote: Because of the established fluff you can actually justify a radical new function. Wouldn't you want to face a different army for a change instead of yet another SM variety?

Last I checked space wolves WERE in fact just another SM variety.

No new dex needed, not when DE, necrons, NIds, eldar, etc. are needed more.

As has been mentioned allready, you can still use your space wolf models and use the current space marine codex.

GG

wyomingfox wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Marines are marines are marines. Who cares? They all die to plasma love/breath of chaos. Once you know that, you know all you need to know.

Ain't it great when the MODS go a trolling

Thats not trolling. This is trolling






Moving to discussions

I believe the title of the thread is
Space Wolves Codex Rumours.

Not the whys and wherefores of should they have one.

AdrianG wrote:I believe the title of the thread is
Space Wolves Codex Rumours.

Not the whys and wherefores of should they have one.

I believe that is why the mod moved it to discussions.


GG

generalgrog wrote:

I believe that is why the mod moved it to discussions.


GG

Took me 20 minutes to calm down enough to post that "polite" post of mine.. missed the move.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:First off I want to say that all those people saying the Space Wolf book came out 9 years ago, you have your facts wrong. I know this because I remember the Space Wolf Codex came out when I was in grad school, I remember it well.

So that can't be nine years ago.

Denying that you are old won't change the date it was released.. lol.. It was released the same year I started working for GW.. 2000.. sorry mate, it's been 9 years.. ( 9 hard years.. )

generalgrog wrote:

ubermosher wrote: Because of the established fluff you can actually justify a radical new function. Wouldn't you want to face a different army for a change instead of yet another SM variety?

Last I checked space wolves WERE in fact just another SM variety.

No new dex needed, not when DE, necrons, NIds, eldar, etc. are needed more.

As has been mentioned allready, you can still use your space wolf models and use the current space marine codex.

GG

Not really, we have terminators with differnt weapon loadouts, tacticals with differnet weapon loadouts, bike squads with different weapon loadouts, assault squads with differnent weapon loadouts, and scout squads with different weapon loadouts...unless you want to play a counts as army that isn't WYSIWYG.

jmurph wrote:

sonofruss wrote:
Our point is the space wolves are not codex marines they have a organization completely back wards from a codex chapter.
Space wolves start as blood claws with scout stats and end up as wolf lords or long fangs, and occasionally they get to be wolf guard or scouts how would you do that with the current codex?

Umm, use the SM codex and take scouts w/BP CCW? Take Termies as WG in Termi armor? Take tacs as grey hunters? Tace devs as Longfangs?

About the only difference between a Codex SM force and a SW force on the field is that the SWs tend to be more fighty. The rest is fluff, not function. So maybe CCWs added to all models at +1 point/model. How does that *need* a totally different codex?

Seriously, I understand the fans like SWs and GW wants to sell SWs, but crying that boohoo we can't make a SW army right now is a little disingenuous.

I am waiting to see if SWs are really good (in which case marines and CSMs will start counting as SWs) or suck (in which case SWs just use C:SM anyway).

The problem with this is space wolf scouts are full marines. Not like regular scouts wolf guard termies can have any weapon allowed to a terminator in any configuration you want not possible with the blue codex grey hunters can wipe the table with a regular tac squad and long fangs split fire cant do that with the blue codex ether. Like I said in my above post blood claws are not assault troopers they have ws and bs of 3 like scouts and they get 2 attacks when they charge plus 2 weapon combo. There are 15 blood claws possible in the squad can't do that in the blue codex.
You take 20 terminators one squad of shooty one squad of fighty against my wolf guard and you wont last 2 turns.
My wolf guard under the current codex 8 assault cannons 6 lightning claws 6 stormbolters powerfist. And then add the two wolf lords that they are guarding feel the pain.
There is no other way to replicate the way this army works with another codex

A pound says they nerf the hell out of it.

ubermosher wrote:

focusedfire wrote:
Problem is that we are going through a human dominated release period and its killing the game. You know GW messed up going for the most bang for the buck by releasing so many SM books in the last three years when you go into a store and there are six players there not playing because they all have SMs and are tired of playing each other. Its times like this that playing xenos scum can make you popular.

Emphasis mine.

I have to disagree. Here's the release order of the last four years (from Wikipedia):
Tyranids
Black Templars
Tau
Eldar
DA/BA
CSM
Orks
Daemons
SM

So, discounting the BA WD codex, over the last 4 years, you've had 3 Imperial codices out of 9 releases. If you count CSM's as human, then you've had 4 of 9. So, let's assume for a moment that the next army after IG are SW's. That means 5 of 11 codices released over a full five calendar years are Imperial. And twice during that period, 3 out of 4 codex releases were NOT Imperial.

So I empathize with you if the game scene in your area suffers because army popularity skews toward Imperial/Human. But I don't think that is because of the release schedule. And I certainly don't think it's a good reason NOT to redo the SW codex.

Cheers

I politely disagree. First I said past three years not four. Yes, I am counting CSM as human. Doesn't matter how many spikes, pusstules, or mutations you put on them, they're still human.

I am also counting the IG and the order things are being done does affect things.

Please indulge me and try to look at this way. A New BRB comes out and The first armies benefitting from it belong to the Imperium. Usually released at about the same time and developed in the same period so that the base Imperium forces(SM&IG) have a rulebook that capitalizes upon those new rules. With maybe one or two exceptions the xenos don't get covered untill halfway through the BRBs expected life cycle. This pattern means that Xenos players get less time with an optimized codex than the Imperium forces. Go ahead and expand back to 2003/2004 as they were getting ready to release 4thed and see who shows up again.


Now I have said my peace and unless there are any actual rumors, I'm outta here until there are some.


BTW, If any of you haven't seen them check out BobPanda's My Space Wolf Project http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/220519.page

Enjoy

@FF:

Um, so what?

Let's go backwards:
May 09 = IG
Oct 08 = SM
May 08 = Daemons!
Jan 08 = Orks!

In May last year, was it horrible that GW did to non-human release in a row?

No, the world didn't end, the SM players weren't up in arms, and GW didn't close its doors.

Same with IG following SM. It's cool, no biggie.

And if we look at 2007, it was:
Sep 07 CSM
Jul 07 BA
Mar 07 DA
An entire year of nothing but SM!

And that was after an entire year of Xenos (Eldar & Tau). ..

And yet, here we are.

No, I don't think it's a disaster.

These things go in cycles, so if you have a Xenos year, you get a non-Xenos year. Or after MEQs, you get non-MEQs. It'll all work out in the end.

Also, looking at Orks, they seem to have done quite well, despite being released at the very end of 4th Edition, but by your theory, they'd be all but unplayable.

Don't sweat it and enjoy the ride.

The Dreadnote wrote:A pound says they nerf the hell out of it.

And when they do a pound says all those SW players who are saying "I want to play pup cause I love the fluff" will all complain how they got the shaft and completly miss the fact they HAVE a new dex and can once again play the fluff they were craving....

Most of its about wanting the beard back... at which point my Raven Guard may take on a distinct grey tinge.....

Druidic wrote:And when they do a pound says all those SW players who are saying "I want to play pup cause I love the fluff" will all complain how they got the shaft and completly miss the fact they HAVE a new dex and can once again play the fluff they were craving....

Even people who play for fluff still play to win.

Not everyone.... but most I'll grant you!

Even I get bitten now and again, but I've been playing long enough to just enjoy the game, winning secondary.... or is that the englishman in me comming through.....

"Its not the winning that counts...... its by HOW MUCH YOU WIN!"

Druidic wrote:Not everyone...

No. Everyone plays to win. No one plays to lose, and no one plays to draw. Everyone plays to win. Doesn't have to be your main focus - I'm not saying that everyone just plays to win, but everyone does play to win. People who are very fluff-focused who get an ultra fluffy army that completely sucks will have every right to complain, because losing all the time isn't fun, and they will eventually tire of it.

Actually phycologically I'd argue with you on that one, I have played to draw, I've also played to loose, but I'll agree that's the oddity rather then the rule.

As an example I'm building a Salamanders army from the spare stuff I have, no idea what it will play like on the field, but my primary motivation is the sculpting and painting, so if it even hits the table, then it will be a bonus, if it wins any games I'd be amazed!

As a further example I've played the wife while she has attempted to get the SoB's to work and played for a loose, the longer her ladies stay alive the longer she gets to practice and learn.

I've defintly played for a draw when "demonstrating" a new game as well, much better to hook someone new into a game with a close and enjoyable game rather then just demonstrate how much better you are then the other guy.

Oddly enough I enjoy myself morewhen I don't try to win as when I do try to win... If I play to win and loose I get hacked off, If I play to win and win, my oponent gets hacked off, if we both play not worrying about winning but instead worrying about the fun and the game, we both enjoy ourselves... which I think is one of the key factors missing in "MinMax" competative play.... which is why I've never done a tournament (Well... outside of full contact with steel weapons, but thats another story)

Yes but you're going to try to win. You're not going to try to lose or draw. You may, due to the way the game is going, end up going for a draw because you can't win, but at no point are you going to state that your goal is to lose.

We play to win. It's what we do.

Did you even read what he said?

I agree with Druidic 100%

I have played games with the full intention of losing, because when I am trying to show the game to a new player, or a new-ish player, I want them to have as much fun as possible so they become just as addicted and nerdy as me.

I find these games to be the most fun, Its not as much thinking tactically as it is describing the fluff between rolls.

After they are dug-in to the hobby and dont need to be walked-through the game, then I will proceed to eradicate their army without mercy. But that gets old fast, and I usually end up setting up custom scenarios to make it interesting and challenging.

EDIT: wow, this is completely OT.

This thread got derailed from the very start

Demogerg wrote:I have played games with the full intention of losing, because when I am trying to show the game to a new player, or a new-ish player, I want them to have as much fun as possible so they become just as addicted and nerdy as me.

You're not playing to lose. Your actual goal or aim is to get them to:

"...have as much fun as possible so they become just as addicted and nerdy as me."

Losing is simply a means to an end.

But I'll leave it there as not to continue derailing the thread. My bad.

If Phil Kelly really writes the Codex, it means SWs will be somewhat codified (10-man GH packs, etc.), but get some really nasty stuff.

Brimstone made a comment on Warseer that SWs will likely lose the LR-Exterminator but be more than happy with all the other toys SW get. Take that for what it's worth.

The Dreadnote wrote:A pound says they nerf the hell out of it.

My first instinct was to agree...however with the codex creep we have been seeing, I wouldn't bet 1/2 pound on it.

GG

Hopefully the "Other Toys" are the other 'Russ Tanks!

A new wolf codex could offer many additional opportunitys outside of the existing vanilla marines to play and build fluff arround outside of Space Puppies.

I'm more interested every day.

Also, since SWs developed the Predator Annihilator, they're clearly not afraid to 'muck with' existing STCs (unlike say, Mars). Maybe it's additional Predator variants. Maybe it's GH on bikes, WG on bikes, everyone - on bikes!

Since SWs are so decidely non-codex, they can do anything. And it's easy to say they don't get some things, for example the Land Speeder Storm, because 'their forgeworlds don't produce X.'

You see if you go down that route, make them VERY un codex, keep the 13th legion in, add enough "disadvantages" too so they are equal to rather then better then Codex Smurfs and you could be onto an interesting proposition there....

sonofruss wrote:

The problem with this is space wolf scouts are full marines. Not like regular scouts wolf guard termies can have any weapon allowed to a terminator in any configuration you want not possible with the blue codex grey hunters can wipe the table with a regular tac squad and long fangs split fire cant do that with the blue codex ether. Like I said in my above post blood claws are not assault troopers they have ws and bs of 3 like scouts and they get 2 attacks when they charge plus 2 weapon combo. There are 15 blood claws possible in the squad can't do that in the blue codex.
You take 20 terminators one squad of shooty one squad of fighty against my wolf guard and you wont last 2 turns.
My wolf guard under the current codex 8 assault cannons 6 lightning claws 6 stormbolters powerfist. And then add the two wolf lords that they are guarding feel the pain.
There is no other way to replicate the way this army works with another codex

Umm that is just the old codex. I thought you wanted Space Wolves, not just a replication of the current codex. A list should reflect what the force would look like in the field. Space marine scouts used to be marine stats, now they are BS/WS 3. Big deal. So you cant take 15 in one squad. Hos is that definitive Space Wolves? In the fiction do they run around in 15 man squads constantly? No. In the fiction they are just fighty viking SMs. The current SM codex represents them just fine, albeit not perfectly (but it doesn't reflect UMs perfectly or RG, or Salamanders, etc. either...). I think you are getting hung up on replicating the 3rd ed codex (which, my guess is the 5th ed one will *not* mirror anymore than the 5th C:SM mirrored the 3rd or 4th) rather than looking at the bigger picture of what SWs are conceptually- fighty SMs with a Viking theme.

But don't worry- need it or not SWs are getting their book. I hope it is on the level of C: DA so we can see who really likes their SWs and who just wants to powergame

dietrich wrote:Also, since SWs developed the Predator Annihilator, they're clearly not afraid to 'muck with' existing STCs (unlike say, Mars). Maybe it's additional Predator variants. Maybe it's GH on bikes, WG on bikes, everyone - on bikes!

Since SWs are so decidely non-codex, they can do anything. And it's easy to say they don't get some things, for example the Land Speeder Storm, because 'their forgeworlds don't produce X.'

Druidic wrote:You see if you go down that route, make them VERY un codex, keep the 13th legion in, add enough "disadvantages" too so they are equal to rather then better then Codex Smurfs and you could be onto an interesting proposition there....

I think this gets to the core issue with SW, how to make them different from vanilla SM, but keeping vanilla's competative. I would think they would get 1 or 2 army wide rules like FC and their guys get 2 base attacks (BP & CC) while their melee, get 3 (2 base, then BP & CC). Or some assult after vehicle move/drop pod. These could easily be represented by being slightly more costly than vanilla SM. I would rather see that then say getting all the LRBT from guard (perhaps 1 or 2 that are in the SW dex with limited upgrades or something).

My resoning is that if they are too good, then all the vanilla players will swap dex's and we'll all be playing against green robed SW, or dark blue SW, red SW....

Except space wolves aren't better than vanilla marines. They shouldn't cost more. They don't have better training, they don't have better equipment, their geneseed isn't better.


They are not better and don't deserve a random stat boost, even if they had it before.

Space Wolves have different training and combat tactics. I doubt they get Combat Squads or Combat Tactics. They probably keep Countercharge. I don't know that they'd give the whole army Stubborn, but it's possible. Personally, I don't want them to get too many 'extras', or they'll end up 20 points each. I'd rather 'lose' a few things and keep GHs in the 15-16 point range.

The difference between SWs and SMs are there, but relatively minor, and a lot less than the differences between SMs and say - Genestealer Cults. I'd rather see 'other' armies lauchned than 'more marinez! hurr!', but I play SWs and I'm looking forward to the new codex. In fact, I'm salivating like Pavlov's dogs.

dietrich wrote:Also, since SWs developed the Predator Annihilator, they're clearly not afraid to 'muck with' existing STCs (unlike say, Mars). Maybe it's additional Predator variants.

^^^.. what in interesting concept indeed. I would suggest that, broadly speaking, you might well be onto something here.From a few bits and bobs I've heard around the place.

Since SWs are so decidely non-codex, they can do anything. And it's easy to say they don't get some things, for example the Land Speeder Storm, because 'their forgeworlds don't produce X.'

Or they don't trust certain technologies or ideas. Good thinking again.

They had a whole plethora of special characters back in 2nd edition right ? Weren't they amongst the first ( the first ?) to have non IC special characters but upgrade ones for units like we see with Telion etc these days ?

I think they were all ICs, but I'd have to the check the second edition codex.

I keep hoping they'll redo Ranulf, the Wolf Guard who once pushed a wrecked Land Raider into a lava flow. By himself. He was supposedly as big (or maybe even bigger) than Russ. I think he was Strength 7.

That's the one I was thinking off, I thought he was just an upgrade character for ... for.... some type of unit .

Was he the one who then held off the orks to let the others escaped and the orks were so impressed their left his body on a bier or similar ?

Yes, Ranulf
here is the entry in the 2nd ed codex
"Ranulf is said to be the largest warrior of all the space wolves, larger in girth and mightier of arm than even Leman Russ....Once, when his squad was trapped by a river of lava Ranulf pushed the wreckage of a Land Raider into the molten stream so that his pack could cross...

The story of Ranulf's death is told at great length in his saga. The Space Wolves were retreating over a narrow mountain pass following a rare defeat at the hands of the Orks. Whent he Orks caught up with the end of the Space Wolves' column, Ranulf and a handful of Wolf Guard made a gallant stand against the entire Ork army in a narrow gap in the pass. While the few warriors held back thousands of Orks, the remaining Space Wolves made it back to safety. Although they greatly outnumbered the defenders, the Orks were unable to bring more than a handful of troops into combat at any one time due to the narrowness and shape of the defile. Before many hours were past there was a pile of Ork bodies as high as a wall. But even the giant Spacw Wolves warrior could not hold out forever. One by one his Wolf Guard fell, untill only Ranulf was left. Though the Orks overcame him in the end, even those creatures could not bring themselves to desecrate his body. Whent he Space Wolves recovered the pass they found Ranulf and his dead companions seated in a hastily constructed shrine surrounded by an immense pile of Ork wargear. To the Space Wolves Ranulf was a great Champion - but to his enemies he has become nothing less than a god."

Hmm... I wonder if Ranulf went to battle wearing nothing more than a Speedo behind his storm shield...

He was just that manly.

Ok, for all those people who are saying "SW are no more different to Marines than WS/RG/Sallies et al..."

Point me to the units you use that are not found in the normal Codex Space Marines.

Oh wait...You can't. Your armies are basically SM armies with a theme. UM's are vanilla flavoured, Scars are Bike flavoured, Sallies are Melta and flamer flavoured... etc. There is nothing beyond this to fundementally distinguish them them from Ultramarines than the paint job and army composistion. Thus no new book is needed, and even without using He'Stan or Khan it is perfectly easy to do.

Now, the Wolves have always been massively different. We have never used anything C:SM, beyond the vehicles and some wargear, because GW were too lazy to do it properly back in 2000. This, more than anything else is why we need a new Codex. You can bleat all you like about a PDF, but to actually fix it you need a complete rewrite. Half our rules are a mess, the armoury needs a complete overhaul... by which point you've put so much effort in you might as well make it a full release and make money back off it.

Furthermore, they can roll some extra C:SM stuff in off the back of it, thus further bolstering the argument in favour financially. So, we have a desperately old codex, an opportunity to have fun with one of the more interesting chapters and to make a quick buck. Wolves are very different to C:SM's, and frankly we'd be better off using C:CSM with some icons of Khorne (Canis Helix) and some Less Fenrisian Wolves and maybe the odd Possessed-by-the-wulfen pack. But then you people would moan we we're being fluffy, wouldn't you?

Oh, and finally I think the argument that SW don't deserve anything because they are Imperial is pretty pathetic. We know DE are being done properly, and Nid's are probably on the Cards for a Q4 release... so you'll have your Xenos soon enough. Nid's get three updates in almost as much time as Wolves get one. But hey, they're Xenos. So it's fine.

And lets not mention the Tau.... a Whole new race that got TWO codex's before guys like Dark Eldar and Space Wolves

Vassakov wrote:Ok, for all those people who are saying "SW are no more different to Marines than WS/RG/Sallies et al..."

Now, the Wolves have always been massively different.

Huh?

As far as I'm concerned, Long Fangs == Devastators, Grey Hunters == Tacticals BC == Assault Marines, and Wolf Guard == Veterans. Yes, SW have a minor twist on each of them, but when you're coming from a Xenos or non-SM viewpoint, that difference is awfully trivial. It's not "massive". Heck, it's not even as much as Chaos, Necrons or Sisters..

Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Vassakov wrote:Ok, for all those people who are saying "SW are no more different to Marines than WS/RG/Sallies et al..."

Now, the Wolves have always been massively different.

Huh?

As far as I'm concerned, Long Fangs == Devastators, Grey Hunters == Tacticals BC == Assault Marines, and Wolf Guard == Veterans. Yes, SW have a minor twist on each of them, but when you're coming from a Xenos or non-SM viewpoint, that difference is awfully trivial. It's not "massive". Heck, it's not even as much as Chaos, Necrons or Sisters..

Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.

yes and so what? In the same time Space Wolves have had Half a Codex, Guard have had 3 Codex, Orks have had 2 and Eldar have had 2. Nids also have had 2, with a 3rd slated for Q4 or Q1 2010. Thats a total of 9 (10) "Massively" different codex's while Space Wolves have had a poor excuse for a codex. So don't whine about "omg too many Imperials" because Space Wolves are long overdue for an update.

And your Statement that Tactical Squads are in any way, shape or form like Grey Hunter Squads as to their role, both rulewise and Fluff wise, just shows you shouldnt be talking in a Space Wolf thread. Period.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Hmm... I wonder if Ranulf went to battle wearing nothing more than a Speedo behind his storm shield...

Stop wishlisting!

Gwar! wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.

yes and so what?

In the same time Space Wolves have had Half a Codex, Guard have had 3 Codex, Orks have had 2 and Eldar have had 2. Nids also have had 2, with a 3rd slated for Q4 or Q1 2010. Thats a total of 9 (10) "Massively" different codex's while Space Wolves have had a poor excuse for a codex. So don't whine about "omg too many Imperials" because Space Wolves are long overdue for an update.

And your Statement that Tactical Squads are in any way, shape or form like Grey Hunter Squads as to their role, both rulewise and Fluff wise, just shows you shouldnt be talking in a Space Wolf thread. Period.

So what? So please don't start claiming that your SW are somehow "massively" different when they're actually *trivially* different.

Nowhere did I ever whine "OMG, too many Imperials". Second, SW are only "overdue for an update" if they have the sales to support it. If not, then it's equally fair to say that they're overdue for cancellation.

As far as I'm concerned, GH die exactly the same as any other Marine. They still play a Tactical role, as compared to long-ranged firepower (LF / Dev) or close-in assault (BC / AM). Whether there is a minor, trivial rules tweak, is of no great importance. They have the same T4 and Sv3+, and they go down exactly the same.

Now I'm not against the SW getting a Codex, but it'd be nice for you guys to acknowledge reality that your special dudes really aren't so different from regular SM when you look at the 40k overall. And quite frankly, the design space that SW occupy (fighty MEQ) overlaps pretty heavily with BA, BT, and CSM.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
And quite frankly, the design space that SW occupy (fighty MEQ) overlaps pretty heavily with BA, BT, and CSM.

All of those pale in comparison to the original "fighty MEQ" the Space Wolves.

How can you compare GH to tactical marines? No other tactical squad can have 3 Power weapons/fists except GH.

Space Wolves bridge the gap between the Codex marine and the Chaos marine.

BDJV wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
And quite frankly, the design space that SW occupy (fighty MEQ) overlaps pretty heavily with BA, BT, and CSM.

All of those pale in comparison to the original "fighty MEQ" the Space Wolves.

How can you compare GH to tactical marines? No other tactical squad can have 3 Power weapons/fists except GH.

Space Wolves bridge the gap between the Codex marine and the Chaos marine.

The sad thing is Counts as Chaos is what a lot of Space Wolf players have been driven to play, as even the Bland Blandness of Blandom that is the Chaos Codex does a better job at Representing Space Wolves than the Actual SW codex.

Sad, ain' it?

reds8n wrote:
They had a whole plethora of special characters back in 2nd edition right ? Weren't they amongst the first ( the first ?) to have non IC special characters but upgrade ones for units like we see with Telion etc these days ?

I've been saying in this thread that the new codex is an opportunity for a new direction, so I was wondering what that could actually mean... and I was just thinking that with the semi-distinct flavor of Wolf Guard (being able to fill various roles such as Vet Sergeant, elite warrior (read: terminators), or even IC's in the form of Battle Leaders), one thing the codex could do is provide a large range of Wolf Guard upgrade characters that can lead squads and convey special options, deployments, USR's, etc. And being Wolf Guard, instead of epic HQ's, the scope of their rules (and point costs) could be reduced, such as only giving 1 USR or simply giving the squad the option of taking a Heavy Flamer, so as to not upset game balance.

As an avid SW player, I'd love to have an army full of glory-seeking characters that fit the SW theme and could impact the style and play of the army while at the same time doesn't promote full-on Herohammer.

GH =/= Tactical squad

tact squads are made to fill many roles decently, and the only role they fill especially well is standing on an objective and Shooting with their heavy weapon, bolters, and special weapon.

GHs are made to go into CC. they have counter charge, bolt pistol and close combat weapon, the ability to take multiple plas pistols and power weapons, but no heavy weapons. not to mention true grit IF you decide to UPGRADE to get bolters.

im sorry if a unit that fills a shooty role vs a unit that fills a CC role is not a big enough difference for you.


and I will repeat this one more time. The reason SW sales have been down is because they have an ancient, long outdated, and pigeon-holed codex that only allows for a couple of good army builds. they have not had any new models save for a couple of "limited edition" or similar single blister pack models.

At this point, I am so upset with the anti-Space Wolf stigma oozing from this thread, I hope GW makes this a stupidly unbalanced codex with a large release of excellent models, and that *YOUR* gaming store becomes flooded with Space Wolf players who you "just cant win" against.


/Thread

JohnHwangDD wrote:Yes, SW are different from SM.

By a *tiny* little bit.

But they aren't "massively" different like Nids or Orks or Eldar or Guard.

Complete and utter lie John.

The Wolf style of fighting, like the Templar, Ravenwing and Deathwing styles of fighting, are almost completely alien to Codex Marines. Their similarities lie in the fact that they're still Marines (obviously) and they use the same tanks, and have the same Imperial Weapons (like all other Imperial armies). They are as different to Codex Marines as Grey Knights are actually - they're not, for instance, like Blood Angels or Dark Angels, where they're Codex save for a couple of extra units.

But I wont loose against an "Uber" SW dex, cause I'll just counts as my Raven Guard.... and I think thats one of the arguments against an UBER SW dex, it will just get played by everyone instead of the Marines Dex.

If you make SW more like marines SHOULD be guess what, everyone becomes SW

If they get it right it will be of a similar competative level which GW as so good at doing.... right?

Druidic wrote:But I wont loose against an "Uber" SW dex, cause I'll just counts as my Raven Guard.... and I think thats one of the arguments against an UBER SW dex, it will just get played by everyone instead of the Marines Dex.

If you make SW more like marines SHOULD be guess what, everyone becomes SW

If they get it right it will be of a similar competative level which GW as so good at doing.... right?

If the SW have the next Nob-Biker unit, then it's possible you'll see Counts-as codex SM using the SW rules... which would probably have DA players laughing/crying at the irony... but to be honest I don't really see that happening. I play both SW's and Imperial Fists and my lists are quite distinct, and I can't imagine ever playing my Fists with the current SW rules, much less with, fingers-crossed, revised more thematic SW rules. The play styles are very different... to me anyway.

Actually, I suspect you'll see more CSM lists as Counts-As armies using the new SW codex. /

The Wolf style of fighting, like the Templar, Ravenwing and Deathwing styles of fighting, are almost completely alien to Codex Marines. Their similarities lie in the fact that they're still Marines (obviously) and they use the same tanks, and have the same Imperial Weapons (like all other Imperial armies). They are as different to Codex Marines as Grey Knights are actually - they're not, for instance, like Blood Angels or Dark Angels, where they're Codex save for a couple of extra units.

Yes, unfortunately they are also still about 1000 dudes. About 1000 dudes in the same armor using the same guns from the same place as the rest of the marines.

I know their fluff, I know what they are supposed to be. I simply don't see them as big enough, different enough, or important enough to warrant a release like this. Regardless though, it looks like they are getting it.

Actually, I suspect you'll see more CSM lists as Counts-As armies using the new SW codex.

Yes because they'll get daemon summoning and all those things the chaos dex lost...?

I would be confused by that statement but it's the chaos armies job to complain so I'll just write it up as another case of putting the whine before the cheese.

Excited about it, my brother plays SW and this should give him more of an inclination to play against me. (He currently doesn't cause my Greenwing Gunline beats his SW generally...)

Wow Shummy your realla negative about space wolves...

ShumaGorath wrote:

Yes, unfortunately they are also still about 1000 dudes. About 1000 dudes in the same armor using the same guns from the same place as the rest of the marines.

I know their fluff, I know what they are supposed to be. I simply don't see them as big enough, different enough, or important enough to warrant a release like this. Regardless though, it looks like they are getting it.

You Obviously DONT know their fluff.

please read this thread.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236094.page

there is nothing to suggest that the Space Wolves number 1000 men. There is evidence that they do not follow the codex astartes at all, and that they may number over 10,000.