Been reading mulling over the ork army list and thinking about my own ork army. Between my experiences with the local meta and what I've read on stelek's blog, it looks like orks are back to being a 3rd tier army - with the prevalence of flamers, melta, mechspam, and the like, it's getting depressing.

Nobody seems to be able to come up with an orky answer to armour spam or a horde-ork defense against being tank-shocked into flamer-formation. Nobs (especially biker nobs) get eaten by template spam and battle psykers (the new, improved boo-librarians). Battlewagons are melta-bait, trukks are basically cardboard, etc, etc.

For orks to even have a shot at tourney play, it really looks like it will come down to the ruling on deff-rollas (a pretty lame way of dealing with tanks imo).

In other words, unless you're 'playing for fun' in an environment where the meta heavily favors orks already, they're book is back to being extremely limited.

I wonder what will shut down the new mechvet meltaspam lists?

Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

I wonder what will shut down the new mechvet meltaspam lists?

Dark eldar

I'm not having any trouble with Mech Vet IG armies. I just Dakka them with Lootas and mop up with Shoota Boyz.

Seriously all you have to do is play to the mission and forget stuff that doesn't matter. Tonight I played against a Mech Space Marine player and just ignored his two Land Raiders. I focused on killing Troops and contesting or holding objectives and guess what? I won.

Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

Yeah seriously stop crying. Ork are just as good as they ever were... just mek up like everyone else. Have you heard of boarding blanks?

180 boyz is still hard as hell to kill. People have been using melta and flame weapons for ages and what is different? Oh they are in tanks now... so bust the tanks and then bust the squad inside.

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

drummerholt1234 wrote:Yeah seriously stop crying. Ork are just as good as they ever were... just mek up like everyone else. Have you heard of boarding blanks?

180 boyz is still hard as hell to kill. People have been using melta and flame weapons for ages and what is different? Oh they are in tanks now... so bust the tanks and then bust the squad inside.

Ahahahahahahaha

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Yeah, bust the tanks... with what exactly? Please, tell me to use my warboss on those landraiders.

He said ignore the land raiders.

Deny troops and contest objectives.

I read Stelek's blog, too. He has alot of good things to say, but there is many ways to get the job done.

dumbuket wrote:

drummerholt1234 wrote:Yeah seriously stop crying. Ork are just as good as they ever were... just mek up like everyone else. Have you heard of boarding blanks?

180 boyz is still hard as hell to kill. People have been using melta and flame weapons for ages and what is different? Oh they are in tanks now... so bust the tanks and then bust the squad inside.

Ahahahahahahaha

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Yeah, bust the tanks... with what exactly? Please, tell me to use my warboss on those landraiders.

HAHAHA
You must not be a very good player if you lose with orks....
they are one of the best armies in the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dumbuket wrote:
For orks to even have a shot at tourney play, it really looks like it will come down to the ruling on deff-rollas (a pretty lame way of dealing with tanks imo).

There is your answer of how to deal with land raiders!

HAHAHA
You must not be a very good player if you lose with orks....
they are one of the best armies in the game.

The new orks were never that good. They just had two things going for them: cheap boyz during a time when the metagame was totally fixated on killing MEQ's, and the 5th edition nob-biker-crutch rules exploit. Now the meta's shifted and horde removal is extremely easy, and the masses of templates and pbs neutralize the bikes.

I haven't played many games since mid 4th, so this is mostly theory-hammer. Even though you don't seem to know what you're talking about, your attitude is one of the problems I've got with the army - they had a brief time in the sun after their new codex came out, and then the new edition caught up to them just like their last codex. Unfortunately, it's going to be another year or two before guys like you figure out that the army's been neutered and adjust your attitudes and comp-scoring. Then the same thing will probably happen again in 2018 when they get their next book.

To beat mechvets there is a simple formula...

Destroy the chimeras first after those are gone you will win or get a draw because destroying Vets outside a Chimera is childs play. The mechvet army will have 3-4 of those and those are his scoring units.... also it the tank explodes so bye to the unit inside the vets will suffer S3 hits and will most likely fail there poor armour saves. If you ask any mechvet player whats the one thing that will beat them its losing their chimeras because without them they are just normal guards that walk.

Here is just a short list of what can bust a chimera in the ork codex:
1. Lootas
2. Any Rokkit armed model
3. Grot Kannons
4. Boss Snikrot flanking from behind (rear armour) with thraka... say bye bye barrage weapons sitting in the back.
5.Warboss/Nob (of any kind in close combat)
6. Tankbusta's (maybe people will finally start using them as their special rule that everyone hates won't affect much when facing a mech army.)

I am by no means saying that the orks are unbeatable. They are beatable. I beat them all the time. But they are not a 3rd Tier army. The are a 2rd tier and a 1st tier in the hands of a good player. I will give you that they are not as good as they once were but they are far from tier 3. If you want to here an amry that was made tier 3 then look at the Tyranids. I am also not saying that mechvets is a bad army. It is close to broken but can be broken itself.

Here is just a little list I pulled out of my head. It probably is crap but I think that it would be able to take on some mech armies.

2000pts
HQ
Grazghkull Thraka

(or for a hell of a good time 2 Big Meks w/ Shokk Attack Gun and PK)

Elites
Lootas x15
Lootas x15
Kommandos x 15 w/ x2 Rokkits, Snikrot

Troops
Ork Boyz x30 w/ x3 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Boss pole
Ork Boyz x30 w/ x3 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Boss pole
Ork Boyz x30 w/ x3 Rokkits, Nob, PK, Boss pole

Heavy Support
Kannons x3 w/ x3 ammo runts, x6 extra crew, Runtherd
Kannons x3 w/ x3 ammo runts, x6 extra crew, Runtherd
Kannons x3 w/ x3 ammo runts, x6 extra crew, Runtherd

That's not nearly enough Boyz, especially if you have Ghaz in a list.

Orks haven't been teir 3 for me since before speed freaks came out and I won probably 90% of my games after the ork clan lists came out. The new book is even better and more diverse. They are still one of the top armies out there even w/the new guard. You just need to adjust to the more heavily mechnized armies that are cropping up lately.

The following 2 quotes, from the same post, sum up the weakness to this thread.

The new orks were never that good.

I haven't played many games since mid 4th, so this is mostly theory-hammer.

Ok, for serious, play some 5th. If there isn't anyone around to play, you might want to stop posting on tactics boards about a game you are denied the opportunity to play, or at least do some in an interrogative manner.

Orks have been top tier since the moment of their launch. They dominated Adepticon in 08, and pretty much all the RTS's and GT's I've been to have seen the Orks repping and stepping. Currently, not counting Guard, the holy trinity is CSM, Chaos Daemons, and Orks. You get me? Orks and CSM are tied for which is better on any given day, and Daemons follow closely behind, only hamstrung by their Daemonic Assault rule.

The Guard have a new codex. It's been widely theoryhammered to beat many top tier lists. Early reports (Shep's batreps, etc.) are encouraging. Still, this is not yet proven on the tournament scene. We don't know how the Guard will handle the top tier lists, played by top tier players. We don't know how they'll handle spoiler lists like Mech Eldar. It isn't clear that they can massacre the first few rounds of scrubs hard enough to take a tournament, or how fast their games go. The Big Waagh is coming up in 2 weeks, maybe I'll see some fierce Guard lists there.

Even if the Guard are better than Orks though (and I don't have any idea whether that's true or not, my money's on the Orks), it wouldn't make Orks third tier. One bad matchup does not ruin a list, unless its vs. a scene dominating predator list (Mech Eldar at the end of 4th), and there's no indication yet that that's what Guard are. Wait and see.

I'm surprised only drummerholt1234 mentioned it, but Tankbustas. Tankbustas, Tankbustas, Tankbustas. 5th edition is the perfect target-rich environment for them.

Mix and match them with Lootas for long-range transport and squadron killing fury, and Burnas for mopping up whatever falls out.

drummerholt1234 it's strength 3 for things out of the tanks. Those vets will be taking a strength 4 hit.

That might kill a few more, which is even better

The Green Git wrote:I'm not having any trouble with Mech Vet IG armies. I just Dakka them with Lootas and mop up with Shoota Boyz.

Seriously all you have to do is play to the mission and forget stuff that doesn't matter. Tonight I played against a Mech Space Marine player and just ignored his two Land Raiders. I focused on killing Troops and contesting or holding objectives and guess what? I won.

Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

TQFTCBQEOMT

(The Quoting For Truth Cannot Be Quoted Enough Or More Truthfully)

Razerous wrote:

The Green Git wrote:I'm not having any trouble with Mech Vet IG armies. I just Dakka them with Lootas and mop up with Shoota Boyz.

Seriously all you have to do is play to the mission and forget stuff that doesn't matter. Tonight I played against a Mech Space Marine player and just ignored his two Land Raiders. I focused on killing Troops and contesting or holding objectives and guess what? I won.

Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

TQFTCBQEOMT

(The Quoting For Truth Cannot Be Quoted Enough Or More Truthfully)

I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm surprised only drummerholt1234 mentioned it, but Tankbustas. Tankbustas, Tankbustas, Tankbustas. 5th edition is the perfect target-rich environment for them.

Mix and match them with Lootas for long-range transport and squadron killing fury, and Burnas for mopping up whatever falls out.

Isn't the problem that they are forced to try to shoot at things even if they are blatantly out of range? Which means that running them on foot, you can never move more than 6" (and 6" assault). And they don't come with a transport so you have to stick them in either hugely unreliable looted wagons, or use up your heavy support on them (or, bogard a trukk from some boyz).

Anyway, Stelek doesn't call them 3rd tier; "Bottom of competitive" is the term he used in a comment on his blog just the other day. I hardly think this qualifies as 3rd tier =] http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/03/my-40k-army-rankings.html
For the lazy:
Tau
Mechdar (E and DE)
SM (of varying colours)
IG
MechWH
Orks

Orks are one of the most (rightly) feared armies out there and there is no way that they have gone from tier 1 to tier 3 on the strength of the IG 'dex.

PBS means nob bikers are no longer an IWIN button, but surely that's a good thing?

There are many ways to counter IG with orks. It takes a little more thought on the part of the ork players and some design concepts are no longer valid - but that doesn't make them rubbish as an army.


P.S. - Just because Stelek is not always wrong does not mean he's always right.

number9dream:

Yeah, that is a problem when there aren't many vehicles on the board, but Mechanized-Veteran army depends on transports getting the Veterans into range of the enemy and/or to the objectives. All those Valkyries and Chimeras come to you. Besides, having them ride in a Battlewagon isn't exactly a bad thing since their Rokkits are Assault weapons, so the tank can grind forward at 6" a turn and fire its own weapons, which can also be Rokkits or a Zzap Gun.

sourclams wrote:That's not nearly enough Boyz, especially if you have Ghaz in a list.

Like I said its just a list I put together in like 5-10 mins. It obviously needs some tweeking but I think it is the basis for a good shooty ork army.

n0t_u wrote:drummerholt1234 it's strength 3 for things out of the tanks. Those vets will be taking a strength 4 hit.

That might kill a few more, which is even better

Well thats good my point is even more viable now

Actually, Stelek's latest verdict on orks is that they're 3rd tier. More specificially, he advises:

Sell the Orks before everyone figures out how horrible they are in 5th
edition.

You did say beyond changing the army completely.

I don't think there IS an uber ork build.

A bit extreme, but I think he's on to something. No, I haven't had more than a dozen games since 5th took off, and the fact that I won them all makes me *less* inclined to believe that I've mastered the current meta. But, and it's a big "but", I still think I've got a handle on what's going on right now. More armour. More AV14 especially. More melta, and more flamers. Orks can't deal with AV14 from long range, and struggle against massed armour, have morale problems, and can't really mech up effectively on their own. The ork army has got serious problems in any competitive setting, and I've yet to read any suggestions other than "stop crying and lern2play" and "just use taktiks". It's not just one bad match-up. It's a general inability to cope with heavy mech builds - if you can't kill landraiders, and you can't deal with chimeraspam, you're suddenly boned against Marines, Chaos, Raider-spam daemonhunters, and Guard. It's not just the games I play, its the ones I watch every week hanging out at the GW. And trust me, guard are *Popular* around here.



Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

dumbuket wrote:Actually, Stelek's latest verdict on orks is that they're 3rd tier. More specificially, he advises:

Sell the Orks before everyone figures out how horrible they are in 5th
edition.

You did say beyond changing the army completely.

I don't think there IS an uber ork build.

A bit extreme, but I think he's on to something. No, I haven't had more than a dozen games since 5th took off, and the fact that I won them all makes me *less* inclined to believe that I've mastered the current meta. But, and it's a big "but", I still think I've got a handle on what's going on right now. More armour. More AV14 especially. More melta, and more flamers. Orks can't deal with AV14 from long range, and struggle against massed armour, have morale problems, and can't really mech up effectively on their own. The ork army has got serious problems in any competitive setting, and I've yet to read any suggestions other than "stop crying and lern2play" and "just use taktiks". It's not just one bad match-up. It's a general inability to cope with heavy mech builds - if you can't kill landraiders, and you can't deal with chimeraspam, you're suddenly boned against Marines, Chaos, Raider-spam daemonhunters, and Guard. It's not just the games I play, its the ones I watch every week hanging out at the GW. And trust me, guard are *Popular* around here.


Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Orks don't need to deal with AV14 at long range. They've got biker bosses, trukk mobs and suicide biker squads to deal with it in cc. They've hardly got 'bad moral'. They're normally fearless, and even if they're not they've still got decent Ld. Orks can easily fight chimera spam, lootas take chimeras apart.

Orks have not been made into a "3rd tier" codex.
A) They still stomp everything that is 3rd tier.
B) They still beat everything in 2nd tier reliably.


The Atlanta metagame hasn't gotten this memo about them not being #1, let alone being demoted to even 2nd tier. Orks are still nasty-competitive, and continue to win tournaments here. The only thing that challenges my boyz are... you guessed it, other Orks! All Guard really do is give me a reason to still include Lootas in my lists, and look at picking up Tankbustas.


Side note:

dumbuket wrote: Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Two: Take a Kannon, fire it in template mode and it's S4 (defensive).

The Green Git wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

Sounds like that SM player had a pretty terribad army.

My sallies love seeing orks lined up against them. Makes all those twin linked heavy flamers i have happy.

dumbuket wrote:Actually, Stelek's latest verdict on orks is that they're 3rd tier. More specificially, he advises:

Sell the Orks before everyone figures out how horrible they are in 5th
edition.

You did say beyond changing the army completely.

I don't think there IS an uber ork build.

A bit extreme, but I think he's on to something. No, I haven't had more than a dozen games since 5th took off, and the fact that I won them all makes me *less* inclined to believe that I've mastered the current meta. But, and it's a big "but", I still think I've got a handle on what's going on right now. More armour. More AV14 especially. More melta, and more flamers. Orks can't deal with AV14 from long range, and struggle against massed armour, have morale problems, and can't really mech up effectively on their own. The ork army has got serious problems in any competitive setting, and I've yet to read any suggestions other than "stop crying and lern2play" and "just use taktiks". It's not just one bad match-up. It's a general inability to cope with heavy mech builds - if you can't kill landraiders, and you can't deal with chimeraspam, you're suddenly boned against Marines, Chaos, Raider-spam daemonhunters, and Guard. It's not just the games I play, its the ones I watch every week hanging out at the GW. And trust me, guard are *Popular* around here.



Nurglich - battlwagons that move can only fire one gun.

Yeah, but just the day before that (June 30th), he said this:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/06/my-first-contest.html?showComment=1246502236016#comment-c8628869081871984786
(Scroll down to the comments)

Me:

Have orks fallen out of the top tier completely for you now? I remember you had them reasonably high (from memory you listed it as Tau, Mechdar, Marines, IG, Witchhunters, Orks.. But I could have gotten a few of those wrong).

Or am I reading too much into you including Orks together with tyranids

Stelek:

Orks are at the bottom of competitive.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/03/my-40k-army-rankings.html

I don't see how he'd go from "bottom of competitive" (which is a decent grade, I would say) to "3rd tier" in 1 day

with the new rules for vehicles (mainly, that they're in squadrons, and if you immobilize one, it's destroyed because it's in a squad) - tanks have been neutered. You have to take them as individual tanks (and therefore a waste of a slot) in order to avoid this. An immoblized tank used to be able to still be a pillbox--now, it's nothing. That means, providing you penetrate of course, which is NOT as impossible as you're making it out to be, there's a 50/50 change you'll destroy the tank (compared with a 1/3 chance before).

Also, as I said, it's not impossible to break through their armour - AV12 can be penetrated with enough rokkits (I mean, the entire POINT to the new Ork list is concentration of fire). As for AV14, like everyone here has said--CC the suckers. Your problem is that you want the best of both worlds--you want Orks that can obliterate the enemy from afar AND up close--it doesn't work like that. In fact, I think what people will eventually find is not how great the Guard are, but how neutere their tanks have become, as a result of the squadron rules--I know that I'm not looking forward to taking Russes - not that the previous book was any better for that, but hey.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
or, if you're that convniced that the list sucks--why don't you take Stelek's advice and sell your army, and go Guard?

I think your overplaying the whole squadrons thing. You dont have to use squadrons. How it's waste's of a slot to take individual tanks i dont know. Take 3 heavy tanks just like you used too. No reason to take squadrons if your so worried about them. It's an option. Not something you HAVE to use.

I think there's a lot of oversimplification going on in this thread. Loota's are great and I wont disagree with that, but it takes what, 6 BS2 rokkit shots to cause a single damaging hit on av12 statistically? And then the odds of that destroying the tank are even lower. And now factor in that they have anywhere from 5-10 av12 tanks and that whole shoot them idea doesnt seem so amazing. Especially when you factor in things like cover that everyone seems to forget about.

And to those who say guard doesnt have enough templates play someone who is smart and takes hull heavy flamers on their vehicles or a heavy flamer in their CCS. Or a heavy flamer in their vet squads. Or hellhounds. Hell if I was in an ork heavy local meta I know I'd be using eradicators.

I dont wanna sound like I'm hating on he greenskins. I have a big soft spot for them and and building an ork army of my own at the moment. I just dont think its as easy as some people want to portray.

Orks are still 1st Tier. I mean come on so what if the end up not beating IG. So they cannot beat 1 army out of how many?

I read YTTH and Stelek seems not to have any battle reports of acutally fighting orks so really what is he going on? Just doing Math? Mathhammer is all well and good for getting a general idea, but playing is totally different.

I know Stelek brings up good points, but really he is just another 40k with a big mouth. I rather have discussions like this then just one persons opinions to come to a understanding about what is good or bad.

I do think Nob bikers are not top tier anymore. I would run the Tide if anything.

General_K wrote:with the new rules for vehicles (mainly, that they're in squadrons, and if you immobilize one, it's destroyed because it's in a squad) - tanks have been neutered. You have to take them as individual tanks (and therefore a waste of a slot) in order to avoid this. An immoblized tank used to be able to still be a pillbox--now, it's nothing. That means, providing you penetrate of course, which is NOT as impossible as you're making it out to be, there's a 50/50 change you'll destroy the tank (compared with a 1/3 chance before).

Although squadrons do make vehicles more fragile, they also serve as force multipliers due to how blast rules and simultaneous resolution work now. Tanks may die faster, specifically the AV12 open topped artillery chimeras facing down loota fire, but they're also more lethal while they're alive. I'd call it a wash, honestly.

Also, as I said, it's not impossible to break through their armour - AV12 can be penetrated with enough rokkits (I mean, the entire POINT to the new Ork list is concentration of fire).

Rokkit fire is one of the worst anti tank options that Orks have. Not only because of BS2 and the low reliability of single shot S8, even against low AV, but because shooting prevents Orks from running, which is what a big mob of Boyz should be doing.

If you assume that you'll roll roughly average, then you need two mobs of 30 Boyz each firing 6 total rockets to get one roll on a vehicle damage table against AV12. Those odds are horribly against you.

As for AV14, like everyone here has said--CC the suckers. Your problem is that you want the best of both worlds--you want Orks that can obliterate the enemy from afar AND up close--it doesn't work like that.

The problem with that solution is that you make yourself vulnerable to whatever is inside of the transport. It's becoming largely accepted that to be "effective", your army has to be able to take out both the transport and whatever is inside in one turn. If your Warboss runs up to a Crusader and explodes it, then you're going to eat the charge from 8 Assault Terms who will eat that unit for lunch for similar points levels. When you add in attrition from shooting on the way in, pretty soon even Orks run out of enough guys.

Ork success is working against them now. Since they're successful, everyone is meta-gaming against them. It's the same reason that in 3rd/4th you could build an Eldar army with like 30 starcannons and do really well - because you were playing MEQs 3/4 of the time.

Orks have dropped from the top of the pile due to the SM and IG books. They can still be very competitive. They may need some favorable match-ups to win a tourney, but that can be said about a lot of armies.

Idk what the complaining is about Orks are still as good as ever. It takes a good player to run them and see what they have to do to win. But orks can do anything in the game better than anyone in the game. Just play. I play Mech IG lots of Vets and such and the games are tough. I have lost both games I have played to The Green Git's Orks :( because he is a smart player. Listen to the guy orks are 1st tier and cheaters lol jk but not really. Oh my custum force field blah blah my deff rolla is over costed blah blah boyz are so expensive in there trukk blah blah my s9 PC nob is sooo expensive....

Sure they might not be the 'hawtness' right now but tier 3?

I still look through the Ork 'Dex and see lots of killy for good prices. They might not be geared to whip the new 'meched up' lists, but they are still a steal compared to say........

'Nids :(
'Crons :(

off topic but I see your sig do you just like old dex's lol?

It just so happens my favourite armys tend to be GW's "The Gimp", locked in a basement for most of their lives.

Clthomps wrote:

I wonder what will shut down the new mechvet meltaspam lists?

Dark eldar

I actually will agree with this - as a DE player I'm loving the new mech heavy theme everyone seems to be buying into. Say hello to my little lance-spam.

I think this might be a good tme to weigh in...

My most regular opponent plays orks, and he is determined to figure out the ork silver bullet to IG.

My current army has no armor 14, and no PBS. And he can't beat it. It's got 12 tanks. 12 heavy flamers, 4 melta cannons, 2 bastion breachers, 2 manticore missile launchers, 4 multi-lasers and 13 meltaguns.

There isn't really a single bit of "anti-ork" tech in there. I designed the list to block movement with fast vehicles, while pounding armies with long range anti-tank (which also doubles as anti-infantry). The veterans aren't really a feature of the army. They just screen my artillery, by giving them cover saves and short range anti-armor.

I think its best to not sell orks as 'perfectly capable of beating a standard mech IG army' Foot orks facing off against a catachan/elysian alpha striker? Or a cadian/catachan foot army? That would be a snap to win.

However, it is also important to note that I have lost games against other codexes with my list (not a lot but that ratio is changing as adjustments are made) and that the ork armies dominance over every other army hasn't significantly changed. IG is a bad matchup, thats it. Some people want their army to not have bad matchups, but thats just not part of wargaming.

My "uber guard army" matches up poorly against modern tau armies, bright eldar and dark eldar, and 'alpha strike' marines and IG. Ork players just need to come to terms with having a bad match. Doesn't mean you suddenly aren't tourney playable, just means you don't coast through tourneys anymore (no offense meant, I coasted through Vegas with a dread bash list)

I think the advice I'd give my ork playing friend (If he would listen to my advice ) would be to focus on marines, make sure he can 50/50 vulkan (which is certainly possible), and make sure you continue to destroy eldar/dark eldar and demons. Take the 30/70 against lash and IG, and don't forget to have fun.

Khornatedemon wrote:

The Green Git wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

Sounds like that SM player had a pretty terribad army.

My sallies love seeing orks lined up against them. Makes all those twin linked heavy flamers i have happy.

I love it! "The Space Marine lost so the player must suxx0rs!"

Puh-lease.

Shep wrote:However, it is also important to note that I have lost games against other codexes with my list (not a lot but that ratio is changing as adjustments are made) and that the ork armies dominance over every other army hasn't significantly changed. IG is a bad matchup, thats it. Some people want their army to not have bad matchups, but thats just not part of wargaming.

Good points. Orks are designed to have trouble dealing with armor. IG gets a lot of good armor. It's a bad match-up. Personally, I don't think that should stop someone from playing Orks in tournies. IG are still not nearly as common as MEQs. And while IG is the new hotness, that still doesn't mean it's even close to 1/2 of the armies you'll see at a tourney. And knowing GW, I'm sure the next few codexes will have lots of things to take the shine off the IG. Most armies are designed to have a built-in weakness, and when see your opposite number across the table, it'll be a tough game. Matchups are always a factor in a tourney setting.

sourclams wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

People like Stelek is why people don't read Stelek's blog. Whatever.

How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:

The Green Git wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I think the question here is why didn't the Space Marine player put Troops in his Land Raiders? Troops mounted in Land Raiders are perfect for capturing objectives precisely because it is so hard to knobble the Land Raiders.

He did. That's how he contested two of the objectives. There were five objectives (Ard Boyz dry run on Scenario 1). Guess who held the other three uncontested? And guess who killed two Speeders, two Dreads, two Combat Squads, a Vanguard squad and a Vet squad while losing only a Battlewagon, one Killa Kan squadron and a Deff Dred? That's right.

Sounds like that SM player had a pretty terribad army.

My sallies love seeing orks lined up against them. Makes all those twin linked heavy flamers i have happy.

I love it! "The Space Marine lost so the player must suxx0rs!"

Puh-lease.

yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Redbeard wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

People like Stelek is why people don't read Stelek's blog. Whatever.

How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

--I'm inclined to agree here---I still don't understand why people are saying Orks should be played shooty - these gits were made for combat!

Redbeard wrote:How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

True to an extent. Tau, demons, eldar and dark eldar have to choose between "tank killing" and "infantry killing". these are the armies that lose to foot orks with take on all comers lists.

CSM tank busting comes with free plasma cannons and lash to make those cannons even more nasty, IG tank busting (that isn't vendetta) is all strength 10 blast or large blast or strength 8 blast, which doesn't sacrifice troop killing ability, not to mention free heavy flamers, witch hunters tank hunting is riding in an immolator. Space marines have strength 10 large blast ordnance, the redoubtable predator destructor, speeders with heavy flamers and multi-meltas, land raider redeemers with multi-meltas and thunder hammer termies. All of these guys can get tank kill incorporated into infantry kill. Without having to make that sacrifice to infantry in order to keep up with mechanized armies, they can give orks a hard time. they have an acceptable amount of infantry kill while being able to exist almost entirely behind armor values, or just pushing 2 units a turn around with lash.

General_K wrote:[I still don't understand why people are saying Orks should be played shooty - these gits were made for combat!

With the exception of those who play novelty or noncompetitive lists, Orks don't want to shoot. Just allow us to hurt things inside vehicles as we assault the vehicles, and we'll gladly stop trying to shoot.

Khornatedemon wrote:yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Two tac squads, Combat squad split. Rhino for each. Two Speeders with Hvy Bolter/Ass Cannon. Dred, Ass Cannon/DCCW. Dred, MM/DCCW. Big Marine squad of somthing (Vets? Dunno) with Chaplain Cassius, two Power Fists, Three Storm Shields, and a couple Power Weapons delivered via LR Crusader. Tac Squad taxied by LR Redeemer. Vanguard squad with Shrike. I'm probably missing something.

No Sternguard. And he DID have flamers in his Vanguard. They had jump packs and did the turn one assault thing. Oddly enough, the Vanguard were one of the only units that could close the deal, taking down the Battlewagon. Too bad they died a horrible death to Ghazkull & his Bully Boyz when they disembarked.

Say what you want... I've faced Mech IG, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, other Orks, and Daemons. I can go toe to toe with them all. If I lose a game it's not due to a failing of the Codex but usually my poor decision making in game or the dice gods frowning on me.

This happens every new codex, people take it and are very successful at first, however as soon as people go back and return to their planning stage they see holes in the new shiny army and ways to overcome it, that is what our respected ork players are having to do now, they were the top of the chain for a while, due in no small part to the old vets taking the 2 inches of dust off their old ork armies and putting them back on the table. Guard is new and untested and will win for a little while granted, but people will come up with ways to deal with it.

I will admit though 5th edition radically changed how thngs sit, assualt armies may need a really big rethink to compete, (my Blood Angels assualt army sure did). Also sometimes 2 armies just match up bad like others have said. I have had a few games that I played to stop the other guy from winning, contest this claim that, if he has 90% of his army left, but no objectives, he/she didn't win.

Redbeard wrote:

sourclams wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Stop crying and adapt, Run the Green tide. Mech Vets does not use a large amount of template weapons.

Stuff like this is the reason why people read Stelek's blog. Mech Vets has templates in the double digits. Even mechvets with only like 3 units of infantry.

People like Stelek is why people don't read Stelek's blog. Whatever.

How anyone can call an army that gets T4 A2 models for six points each tier three is beyond me. And the more success mech guard and mech meq have, the better foot orks will meta, because people will adjust to face the mech armies.

Agreed, although I have no idea how this pertains to the original quotes.

Claim 1: Mech Vets have no templates
Counter 1: Mech Vets have lots of templates

Nobody said anything about basic Orks not being very good.

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Two tac squads, Combat squad split. Rhino for each. Two Speeders with Hvy Bolter/Ass Cannon. Dred, Ass Cannon/DCCW. Dred, MM/DCCW. Big Marine squad of somthing (Vets? Dunno) with Chaplain Cassius, two Power Fists, Three Storm Shields, and a couple Power Weapons delivered via LR Crusader. Tac Squad taxied by LR Redeemer. Vanguard squad with Shrike. I'm probably missing something.

No Sternguard. And he DID have flamers in his Vanguard. They had jump packs and did the turn one assault thing. Oddly enough, the Vanguard were one of the only units that could close the deal, taking down the Battlewagon. Too bad they died a horrible death to Ghazkull & his Bully Boyz when they disembarked.

Say what you want... I've faced Mech IG, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, other Orks, and Daemons. I can go toe to toe with them all. If I lose a game it's not due to a failing of the Codex but usually my poor decision making in game or the dice gods frowning on me.

sounds like 2 vanguard squads which equals double fail.

Same goes to you, say what you want, but my mech SM army with 7 twin linked heavy flamers, 3 twin linked flamers, and 2 flamestorm cannons has never lost to a horde ork army. Does that mean it cant lose to orks. No, not at all. It just hasnt so far. So because your orks have faced the guys at your store and won doesnt mean the same will fly in every game against any opponent. This is what I meant by over simplifiaction. Just because something can do something doest mean it will.

And yes, that is a very bad marine list. 2 troop choices in a marine army = sad panda. vanguard = fail. And he sent vanguard after a battlewagon full of nobz and ghaz? Epic Fail.

sourclams wrote:Although squadrons do make vehicles more fragile, they also serve as force multipliers due to how blast rules and simultaneous resolution work now.

Personally, my favorite use of a squadron over individual FOC choices involves a Daemonhunter Inquisitor and a pair of Mystics. Where once there was but a single Battle Cannon / Demolisher Cannon shot for the Deep Striking force, now there are multiple plates of pie. Good times!

- Marty Lund

They aren't bad. Just not a "seer council" or "alpha strike" metagame army.

They suffer b/c this edition is about melta and they basically have none.

Just to put my two cents in here. and keep in mind i dont care much for orks, i dont like the play style or the look. i've been playing mech IG, and have been rolling every army ive come agenst for about 2 months now. i pulled a draw with and ork army last night and the orks should have won if not for a bad move at the end of the game by the player. so i may not like them but hands down i respect them, still a comp army by a long shot.

Khornatedemon wrote:Same goes to you, say what you want, but my mech SM army with 7 twin linked heavy flamers, 3 twin linked flamers, and 2 flamestorm cannons has never lost to a horde ork army. Does that mean it cant lose to orks. No, not at all. It just hasnt so far. So because your orks have faced the guys at your store and won doesnt mean the same will fly in every game against any opponent. This is what I meant by over simplifiaction. Just because something can do something doest mean it will.

You can stop the chest thumping for your Salamanders. So you can tool up flamers and beat Orks. Whoop-dee-doo. Let me know ahead of time I'm facing Marines and I can tool to beat that, too. I didn't tool my Ork list to beat Marines and it was no where near a horde list (unless you call 60 something Ork boyz in 2500 points a horde ).

The *point* here is that in a blind scenario where you have to build a list to take all comers, Orks (in my hands anyway) will win more than they lose. They are hardly a second rate army, let alone third tier.

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:Same goes to you, say what you want, but my mech SM army with 7 twin linked heavy flamers, 3 twin linked flamers, and 2 flamestorm cannons has never lost to a horde ork army. Does that mean it cant lose to orks. No, not at all. It just hasnt so far. So because your orks have faced the guys at your store and won doesnt mean the same will fly in every game against any opponent. This is what I meant by over simplifiaction. Just because something can do something doest mean it will.

You can stop the chest thumping for your Salamanders. So you can tool up flamers and beat Orks. Whoop-dee-doo. Let me know ahead of time I'm facing Marines and I can tool to beat that, too. I didn't tool my Ork list to beat Marines and it was no where near a horde list (unless you call 60 something Ork boyz in 2500 points a horde ).

The *point* here is that in a blind scenario where you have to build a list to take all comers, Orks (in my hands anyway) will win more than they lose. They are hardly a second rate army, let alone third tier.

I didnt tool my list to beat orks either. Thats the standard composition of my tournament army, along with just about any vulkan list. Which is the most competitive of marine lists. So try again buddy.

I'm glad in your hands orks are better than everyone else's. You must be a god among gamers.

The main problem is that people seem to be accustomed to playing a certain "type" of ork army.


The fact is though orc mech is disgusting with its low troop choice mobility and ability.

Keep it polite! I don't care what the other guy said, that's no reason for you to be rude.

(This is not directed at Hollismason; there are several posters in this thread that have been rude.).

I stand by the fact that properly played orks were never 3rd tier since no one was really equipped to deal with them back in the day. Current Mech Orks is one of the strongest lists in the game and green tide will make a little bit of a comeback due to people gearing up for mech armies. But they most definitely are not tier 3.

Why exactly will Green Tide make a comeback because of the mech lists? It seems to me that the current hot mech lists have plenty of anti-horde weapons built into their lists without even trying, and an abundance of weapons that can be either AT or AI depending on the meta without actually handicapping the list's ability to deal with both types of army greatly. I feel like Mech just flat out trumps Green Tide at this point. Looking at Marines, IG and Chaos mech anyway. I think the point was made before that Mech Eldar and DE are less well off becuase they tend to have to pick one or the other to kill when they build the list and i is more difficult t oget the same kind of diversity of weapons that the Imperial/Chaos mech lists can put out. Battlewagon Orks is also a very scary army with Ghazghkull at the helm.

I expect it'll be roughly about the same time that Ork players rediscover Tank Bustas for dealing with multiple incoming armoured units. Two units of Tank Bustas in front, and a unit of Kommandoes lead by Snikrot coming in from behind and the Imperial Guard player will have to make some hard choices.

The Green Git wrote:Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

*sorry, can't resist!*

just because he was opposing you on the other side of the table doesn't mean you can call him something you place in your rectum! remember dakka's rule #1!

warboss wrote:

The Green Git wrote:Did I kill either of his two Land Raiders? No. Did my Boyz get the hurt put to them? Yes they did. Did I hold more objectives than the enema and give up less Kill Points than him? Yes, I did.

*sorry, can't resist!*

just because he was opposing you on the other side of the table doesn't mean you can call him something you place in your rectum! remember dakka's rule #1!

Well la-di-da, I guess maybe you fancy folks in those big cities put enemas in your rectums, but in the real world we do it the good old fashioned way!

What is the baseline folks would consider Orks 3rd tier? Local tourneys, indy GT's, in house games... all of the above? Is there a breakdown on a single site for all the indy GT's this year showing this?

Locally, Orks are still doing well. However, lists have morphed a bit since the release of the Space Marine Codex. I haven't seen an Ork horde army in some time. My personal army went mechanized and has done fairly well. I've not dealt with a totally lopsided game which has included going against a couple of Vulcan lists.

It just seems that a lot of doom and gloom about the Orks is on the internet.

Someone doesn't seem to understand the difference between my view of the game and everyone elses...at no point do I believe in a 'tier' system or a 'metagame'. So Orks end up being at the bottom of competitive, which I guess in the ranking system is tier 3.

For those that don't understand what stelek's been getting at. In fact, it looks like he's responding directly to this thread:

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/07/orks-etc.html

I don't think orks are non competitive or have slipped out of the top tier. Remember that Stelek does not believe in a national level meta game nor do I. That said I realize that there are army lists we will see more often than not at big tournies. There are certainly Internet spam lists that run rampant and I think that is unfortunate really. The top players have solutions for the more popular builds, orks have been out there for awhile now... People are used to them and they really don't seem to have any tricks left up their sleeves. That doesn't mean you need any tricks to do well. Orks have all the tools they need to deal with everything out there including landraiders. Prolly it's getting hard for people who like to run Internet spam lists to still pull off the big win with their boyz. If that's the case it's time to go back to the drawing board and design your own unique list.

G

I agree with Green Blow Fly: cribbing advice from the intarwebz is no substitute for actually learning the game yourself.

Green Blow Fly wrote: Prolly it's getting hard for people who like to run Internet spam lists to still pull off the big win with their boyz. If that's the case it's time to go back to the drawing board and design your own unique list.

And with that statement I think GBF has hit the nail on the head. Peeps that run very popular lists spammed all over the web cannot simply hit the "Easy" button and win anymore. For those lacking original thought they will not be able to cope, having less than the requisite number of brain cells to rub together.

I'm certainly not the most capable general out there, but I muster more wins than losses with the Greenskins*. I attribute these successes to the strength and resiliency of the army, not my talent.

*Trolls feel free not to respond to this post. You know who you are.

So if I can't figure out how orks deal with AV14, it's because I'm stupid. Gotcha.

Orky dreadnaughts, warboss & nobz powerklaws, tank bustaz... Need I say more?

G

Yeah, run the numbers and explain how any of those will a) get to the tank intact, and b) buck the law of averages and somehow actually do something.

Don't forget Lootas, Looted Wagons, Warpheadz, Big Guns, Battlewagons, Deffkoptas, and Warbuggies.

And grots, stormboyz, flashgits, and kommandos with snikkrot. Wait, we're making a list of stuff that can't realistically touch av14, right?

Killa Kans. Most points-efficient unit in the game.

willydstyle wrote:Killa Kans. Most points-efficient unit in the game.

The Kan wall does indeed do an okay job of taking out Raiders. Back with KFF for goodness.

dumbuket wrote:Yeah, run the numbers and explain how any of those will a) get to the tank intact, and b) buck the law of averages and somehow actually do something.

Why does everyone always demand numbers. Orks don't care about statistics, they are cheap and can throw alot at you. Might not be efficient but it gets the job done.

A) The same way orks get in contact with anyting, runing forward, using cover and relying on lootas to kill anything not av 14. Then get the av 14 into an assult.

B) There is still a on a dice right? Averages only go so far.

Anybody can Mathhammer/Theoryhammer all you want. Only thing that matters is what the dice roll that game; and its just a game...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sourclams wrote:

willydstyle wrote:Killa Kans. Most points-efficient unit in the game.

The Kan wall does indeed do an okay job of taking out Raiders. Back with KFF for goodness.

Yes it certanly does, gives a nice wall for the boys as well.

I guess you assault Genestealers with Gretchins "coz there are like 6's on the dice", too.

*Shakes head*

Steelmage99 wrote:I guess you assault Genestealers with Gretchins "coz there are like 6's on the dice", too.

*Shakes head*

I have, I wont deny it. They did wonders on the Nightbringer awhile ago too, little buggers have their uses.

Casper wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:I guess you assault Genestealers with Gretchins "coz there are like 6's on the dice", too.

*Shakes head*

I have, I wont deny it. They did wonders on the Nightbringer awhile ago too, little buggers have their uses.

Are you talking about gretchin again? Because you know that there's literally nothing that they can do against the Nightbringer. S2 can't affect T6, let alone T8. And even if Gretchin magically doubled in strength, the etheric tempest would just blow them out of combat. Or do you just play CasperHammer?

Maybe you're forgetting that Runtherdz with Grot-prod always wounds on a 4+. In addition, the Grabba Stikk will reduce the Nightbringer's attacks by 1 each round. Three of them would have nine attacks on the charge, always wounding on 4+, with Grotz to soak up the two attacks that the Nightbringer could bring in return.

Perhaps the Necron player was confident of beating up the Ld7 unit and chasing it down, and basically got tasered in the 'nads for his over-confidence.

Why the hell do people complain about land raiders? dreads, kans, PK's take care of them whenever i have to deal with them. Put your horde under two force fields while trudging up to em' and rip them open then get to spanking on those terminators. Pop some rokkits at the enemy's tanks and hopefully you'll stun it and make it worthless for a turn. And ignoring them aint a bad option either. Them killing three orks (im assuming after losing your armor) a turn isnt a bad lose.

Yeah if the landraider is the only reason not to play orks then try fantasy. I'm sure you can deal wif steam tanks.

G

If it is a Land Raider carrying Assault Terminators, then how will the Killa Kanz get through them and tear apart the Land Raiders?

Edited 'cause I had a better response after finding out the sm army list...

HQ:
KFF Big Mek w/ PK
PK footslogging warboss

Elites:
Lootas
Tankbustas

Troops:
Diversified nobs in a trukk w/ boarding plank
Shoota boyz in trukks w/ boarding planks

Fast attack / Heavy support:
Kitted out battlewagons (lootas and tankbustas go here)

The Green Git wrote:

Khornatedemon wrote:yeah sorry, but vanguard = fail. A normal assault squad with 2 flamers would have served him better.

Let me get his army straight. 2 land raiders, 2 tactical squads, 2 speeders, 2 dreads, a vanguard squad, and a sternguard squad? Yeah thats a pretty terrible list.

Two tac squads, Combat squad split. Rhino for each. Two Speeders with Hvy Bolter/Ass Cannon. Dred, Ass Cannon/DCCW. Dred, MM/DCCW. Big Marine squad of somthing (Vets? Dunno) with Chaplain Cassius, two Power Fists, Three Storm Shields, and a couple Power Weapons delivered via LR Crusader. Tac Squad taxied by LR Redeemer. Vanguard squad with Shrike. I'm probably missing something.

No Sternguard. And he DID have flamers in his Vanguard. They had jump packs and did the turn one assault thing. Oddly enough, the Vanguard were one of the only units that could close the deal, taking down the Battlewagon. Too bad they died a horrible death to Ghazkull & his Bully Boyz when they disembarked.

Say what you want... I've faced Mech IG, Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, other Orks, and Daemons. I can go toe to toe with them all. If I lose a game it's not due to a failing of the Codex but usually my poor decision making in game or the dice gods frowning on me.

That list is a horrible 'ard boyz space marine list. Ass Cannon/hb SPEEDERS?!?!. No assault termies? VANGUARD?!?!

Really...wtf?

Well well well, a very interesting thread:

@the Green Git - that SM army was rubbish. Sorry, I'm not being rude, but it was.

Generally - I own over 10k of Orks. I've played 5th with them maybe a hundred times. Orks cannot, and I can't stress this enough CANNOT reliably beat a list with 2+ Land Raiders. One can be dodged, or fluked, but 2 or more, and you may as well throw in the towel-squig, and watch someone else's game, and not waste everyone's time. Anyone who recommends Tankbustas isn't half as good as they think they are - maybe if they didn't take up a Loota spot, maybe if they didn't cost more than 8 points each, maybe if they weren't the easiest thing in the world to counter because, oh look, most things have more range.

Orks can be good. But they aren't as good as Eldar, SM, CSM, DE, IG, WH...basically, as Stelek says on the issue. Killla Kans get killed by Melta on a 3+, and please find me a Melta weapon that doesn't get more than a glance on AV11 reliably.

Relying on a boarding plank to REACH nevermind damage a Rhino, let alone a LR is naive at best. When ramming a Battlewagn feels like the best bet, you should just give up and cry. Also, Warpheadz are bigger fail than all 3 Star Wars prequels without the final special effects put in yet. They redefine fail as a concept - and they're still 10x better than a regular Wierdboy.

Arbalest wrote:If it is a Land Raider carrying Assault Terminators, then how will the Killa Kanz get through them and tear apart the Land Raiders?

From personal experience, it's rather hard to do. You more or less have to force the Termis into an offensive role instead of sitting tight in their transport. This in itself isn't remarkably difficult because most SM players are eager to get their AssTerms into combat as quickly as possible. Screening your Kanz while keeping them close enough to counter assault, however, is a lot more difficult.

If you absorb that first charge, you can wall off the Raiders with your walkers so that they can't move further than 6" and after that 20+ S10 attacks is more than enough to take out as many as needed.

When executed properly, it works. But like any plan with a great deal of complexity, any number of things can go wrong.


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Elessar wrote:Killla Kans get killed by Melta on a 3+, and please find me a Melta weapon that doesn't get more than a glance on AV11 reliably.

If you can use the KFF Mek effectively, Killa Kanz become surprisingly resilient. AV11 is no joke when it gets a perma-4+ ignore save.

Against Melta fire, or even a Heavy Flamer, AV11 still isn't enough, even with a KFF. Even Pulse Rifles can destroy you from 30" away...

I've played against the list, I know how tough it is - it's not about to get tabled any time soon. But that doesn't mean it's good enough to win either.


EDIT: 100th post, lol.

An army like Tau or IG will have enough long guns to take the Kanz out. Most others won't. Kanz don't have to be in close combat to start wrecking things; Grotzookas are an amazing gun and the punishment dealt at 18" per point cost is one of the highest in the game.

That said, I don't disagree that Orks have huge problems. An army whose answer to AV14 is to 'LOL and run forwards with huggy-arms' is fighting an uphill battle. I don't know what games the previous posters are playing where they can ignore Land Raiders, but it certainly hasn't mirrored my experience.

Here's a couple of Raider-spam lists I've run in the past. First of all, Daemonhunters-style:

HQ -
BroCap w/ Psychic Hood - 81
Elite -
Inq Retinue - 322
- Inquisitor w/ BP/CCW & Emperor's Tarot - 37
- 2x Mystic - 12
- Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Extra Armour & Smoke - 273
Troops -
PAGK x4 & Justicar - 150
PAGK x4 & Justicar - 150
PAGK x4 & Justicar - 150
Heavy Support -
Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Psycannon Bolts, Pintle Stormbolter, Extra Armour & Smoke - 293
Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Psycannon Bolts, Pintle Stormbolter, Extra Armour & Smoke - 293
Land Raider w/ HK Missile, Psycannon Bolts, Pintle Stormbolter, Extra Armour & Smoke - 293

You can run this with ISTs instead of Grey Knights and fit another =][= Land Raider retinue in for a total of 5 LRs, but people complain about ISTs going in the Land Raiders sometimes so this is the simplest way to do it. There's also Smurf-style:

HQ -
Termie Chaplain w/ Combi-Melta - 135
Elite -
Assault Terminators x5 w/ TH/ SS, Land Raider w/ Multimelta & Extra Armour - 475
Troops -
Tac Squad x4 & Sgt w/ Chainsword & Meltabombs - 95
Tac Squad x4 & Sgt w/ Chainsword & Meltabombs - 95
Tac Squad x4 & Sgt w/ Chainsword & Meltabombs - 95
Heavy Support -
Land Raider w/ Multimelta, HK Missile & Extra Armour - 285
Land Raider w/ Multimelta, HK Missile & Extra Armour - 285
Land Raider w/ Multimelta, HK Missile & Extra Armour - 285

I've never played an Ork army with either of them, but they routinely crushed pretty much everything else I came up against to the extent that I had to promise to stop bringing them if I wanted to get a game. I'd be interested to know is how the average "competetive" Ork list would propose to deal with either of them, because quite frankly I can't see much of a way.

An Ork player wouldn't even open his case, if he had any sense. Better to concede than actually be tabled, despite having 200-odd models.

Teh Innerwebz haz spoken! My Orks are rubbish.

Guess I'm just not smart enough to have figured it out yet. Better stop deceiving myself and give in to the greater wisdom that is Dakka. How could my dice and models have deceived me so... being competitive when they should be losing? I'm obviously ignorant.

Or maybe it's the people you play who haven't yet figured out that your Orks are rubbish? Once they do, you're buggered >_<

They're a fun army, but I wouldn't take them to a tournemnt or anything unless I was expecting to see a load of soft lists I could trounce just by having more models than he has shots. Even without spamming Raiders I can take my pure Grey Knights army against Orks and, at the very least, expect a sporting draw; and I know for a fact that my pure Grey Knights army ain't competetive in the slightest.

The Green Git wrote:Teh Innerwebz haz spoken! My Orks are rubbish.

Guess I'm just not smart enough to have figured it out yet. Better stop deceiving myself and give in to the greater wisdom that is Dakka. How could my dice and models have deceived me so... being competitive when they should be losing? I'm obviously ignorant.

Don't be an idiot. No-one said orks are rubbish, just that they aren't good. If you don't know the difference then you must be ignorant...

The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

No, Orks have difficulty with AV13, and AV12 as well, just a fair bit less trouble. Now, if Burnas still had that lovely 2d6 penetration...

Hollismason wrote:The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis.

Keep it polite, Elessar. Click Rule #1 in my sig.

Frank Fugger wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis.

What Ork players? Where? Are they playing Apocalypse maybe? As soon as someone presents a reasonable way for Orks to reliably kill ONE AV14 tank, then I'll concede the point. I'm not aiming to offend anyone, but if you can't provide even anecdotal evidence then why do you say I'm wrong?

BatReps where Orks beat a proper list with AV14 is where it's at. Either post one, or link one. I'll eat my hat.

Elessar wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:

Hollismason wrote:The only thing orks really have difficulty with is AV14. Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list.

It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis.

What Ork players? Where? Are they playing Apocalypse maybe? As soon as someone presents a reasonable way for Orks to reliably kill ONE AV14 tank, then I'll concede the point. I'm not aiming to offend anyone, but if you can't provide even anecdotal evidence then why do you say I'm wrong?

BatReps where Orks beat a proper list with AV14 is where it's at. Either post one, or link one. I'll eat my hat.

Read the whole thing properly.

He said:
"Thats about it otherwise its overall incredibly difficult to make a bad army with the list."

I said:
"It can't be that hard, most Ork players do it on a weekly basis."

If you want to see crumby Ork lists I'm not going to link them. Instead, I'll suggest that you search the Army List forum for the word "Ork"; every single one you see there under 2000pts will get rolled by AV14 spam. But then again, you knew that already didn't you? ;D

Apologies, I misunderstood - silly me

I've really gotta find a way to convince others of the same thing...maybe if I play my Orks against a series of other lists and do BatReps of me losing every time...they'll probably say it's just me...as if.

The number one thing people need to realize about Orks is that they have never needed Nob Bikerz, Snikrot, and any other crutch unit to win games. The list overall is solid, and there are very few truly bad units in the list. Any decent player with a plan can win with Orks.

Having said that, already we are seeing a shift in Ork players in my meta-game to lists that include a lot of Battlewagons filled with Nobz. I already know that a local player is taking a list consisting of Mega-armored Nobz in Battlewagon with Ghaz, Warboss with Regular Nobz in a Battlewagons, and Nob bikers supported by a bunch of boyz in trucks. Extremely fast, hard to stop, and can out assault most other armies.

What do I know, I am just a Vulkan player who faces Orks, IG, and Eldar regularly.

As a Vulkan player who faces Orks regularly, I'd invite you to try throwing one or two Land Raiders or Crusaders into your lists and seeing how the Orks deal with them. It doesn't necessarily need to be a tailored AV14 list; something that includes the LRs in a competetive non-cheesy way. You might also like to put an Ironclad or two in there as well.

Basically, no matter what you do, if you run AV14 and 13 vehicles in such a way that ignoring them and chaqsing other units is not an option and destroying them is necessary for your opponent to achieve victory then the only thing an Ork player can do to handle you is tailor his list. Most other armies in 40K will rip Raider-spam lists to pieces, and can cope well enough with competetive lists that use AV14 as more than just a big shed for their Termies to get out of, but Orks can't. That's why they suck.

Ork armies have the ability to mechanize incredibly well add in they can have a Armour 14 transport for less than 120 points comparable to the wave serpent and you have something pretty nasty.

I think we will see more deffrollas in general once people realize how awesome they are at not only dealing with monstrous creatures but with vehicles.


Multiple Battlewagons with one or two in the back field with a 4+ invulnerable from a Mech on board and having Shoota inside along with KillKannon is disgusting. Throw in a FU nob squad as a troop and you have something that is pretty overall disgusting.

I apologize, in general, I forgot, somehow, in all my previous posts, to refer back to Drummerholt's post on page 1, in which he claimed sending Ghaz with Snikrot was a good move - it's illegal, of course. I'm sure we all know, but I should've brought it up when I intended.

As for Orks mechanising well? Yes, if the battlewagn was 30 points cheaper base, and was available to Boyz, Lootas and Burnas - then Orks'd be top of the pile.

Until then though, I disagree. Powerful as that can be - it's easy to avoid, and too expensive for what it achieves. Also, Deff Rollas are the single biggest unresolved rules issue in the game. I think they can be used on vehicles - but a lot of players won't allow it. If one of those is your TO...well, tough.

There isnt alot of strong powerful choices out of the Heavy Support Section of the Ork Codex , you have dreads and kans thats about it.

You think? I think Heavy Support is probably the best section of the Dex...

Elessar wrote:Don't be an idiot. No-one said orks are rubbish, just that they aren't good. If you don't know the difference then you must be ignorant...

That pretty much sums it up... They're not rubbish... just not any good. Oh, and if a player loses to Orks, he's rubbish too, either his skillz or his list making abilities.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

PLONK!

I'm not even going to rise to that.

Its a incredibly strong army its just people got shoehorned basically into believing that only one set up was viable as it stood out as the cream of da crop.

Which is still is to a degree , sure imperial guard with their multiple template can harm them.

Ultimately though they tear ass through most armies regardless.

Actually, I'm starting to think I've been catastrophizing... Yes, orks are basically up a creek against av14 spam, but only against raider-spam, now that I think about it. Against just about any other AV14 target, you're looking at a rear-armour of 10-11 tops.

With the shift to mech-spam and the resultant rise in melta, I wonder if orks really even have much to fear against raiderspam. It seems like in a tourney setting, the one build that orks fear (landraider spam) will just get destroyed by all the melta. Basically, if you build a strong mech ork list and manage to avoid raiderspam in the early rounds, how likely are you to see it later on?

Not through my Eldar, or any good Eldar build I've seen. Stelek's point, IMO, is that Orks aren't as good as Eldar, Tau, Chaos etc, not that they aren't better than DH, Necrons, each other, or rubbish lists in general.

dumbuket wrote:Actually, I'm starting to think I've been catastrophizing... Yes, orks are basically up a creek against av14 spam, but only against raider-spam, now that I think about it. Against just about any other AV14 target, you're looking at a rear-armour of 10-11 tops.

With the shift to mech-spam and the resultant rise in melta, I wonder if orks really even have much to fear against raiderspam. It seems like in a tourney setting, the one build that orks fear (landraider spam) will just get destroyed by all the melta. Basically, if you build a strong mech ork list and manage to avoid raiderspam in the early rounds, how likely are you to see it later on?

But it's not just raider spam lists. Two land raiders can wreck an ork army's day at 1850 or 2k. How many marine players won't take them, regardless of the meta-game?

Do you really want to take a chance on not meeting one of the most popular armies out there 'early' in a tournament that could just wreck your day?

I'm not saying orks can't win, but until it gets officially faq'ed that deff rollas can work in a tank ram, it could be pretty dicey to play orks atm.

As an Ork player, 1-2 Land Raiders won't wreck my army. This is a reasonable number to be able to reliably deal with. 3+ and I start having issues, but this is heavily dependent on the parameters of the mission.

I pretty much play tourneys for the most part these days and one of the things I actually don't see are 3+ Land Raider lists. Aside from Ork armies, there is an abundance of Melta/Multi Melta weapons that can quickly sink 750+ points of an army. If I do draw up against a Land Raider spam army, that's the luck of the draw so to speak.

From my experience, I concede the point Orks have difficulty dealing with armor 14 (I use 1 Deff Rolla in the army as the rule flip flops wherever I play; I don't plan my army around Deff Rollas vs. vehicles), but by no means does this one fact spell doom for an Ork army in a tourney setting. YMMV.

But, for fun sake, I'll keep track of 2-3 tourneys I'll be playing in with my Orks this month. For the Necro, I know Space Marines are the predominant army. We'll see what kind of armies I face off against.

a. Ard Boyz 11th (North Carolina)
b. RTT 18th (Florida)
c. Necro 25-26th (Florida)

Appreciated.

Elessar wrote:I apologize, in general, I forgot, somehow, in all my previous posts, to refer back to Drummerholt's post on page 1, in which he claimed sending Ghaz with Snikrot was a good move - it's illegal, of course. I'm sure we all know, but I should've brought it up when I intended.

As for Orks mechanising well? Yes, if the battlewagn was 30 points cheaper base, and was available to Boyz, Lootas and Burnas - then Orks'd be top of the pile.

Until then though, I disagree. Powerful as that can be - it's easy to avoid, and too expensive for what it achieves. Also, Deff Rollas are the single biggest unresolved rules issue in the game. I think they can be used on vehicles - but a lot of players won't allow it. If one of those is your TO...well, tough.

Wait, why is it illegal?

Ambush:
"Snikrot's mastery of guerilla tactics is legendary. If the owning player chooses, Snikrot and his unit may be held in Reserve. When Snikrot and his unit become available from Reserve, they may move on from any table edge."

This doesn't seem anything like infiltrate, I don't see why he'd lose this ability if an IC was attached - it says Snikrot and his unit afterall. I remember Stelek made post about using Snikrot/Grotsnik/Ghaz to outflank like that. It was a long time ago tho, so feel free to point me @ whatever FAQ has clarified this as illegal.

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/01/ork-ard-boyz.html

It's a unit special rule, so it's lost hen an IC joins. Stelek's good, but he's not god. He makes mistakes too - he also thought the Mandrake/Webway Portal combo was good (admittedly, so did I, until I thought about it for a few mins)
No FAQ is required, BRB holds the answer.

Ask Gwar! if you don't believe me.

Doesn't it have asterisks after the ones that lose their ability? He will keep his ability as it also includes the unit he is joined with in its wording.

dumbuket wrote:With the shift to mech-spam and the resultant rise in melta, I wonder if orks really even have much to fear against raiderspam. It seems like in a tourney setting, the one build that orks fear (landraider spam) will just get destroyed by all the melta. Basically, if you build a strong mech ork list and manage to avoid raiderspam in the early rounds, how likely are you to see it later on?

Ding-ding-ding! We have a winner. Thank you dumbuket for thinking. Sure, Land Raiders will give an Ork army difficulties... and it will die a hideous death to a Melta Spam IG army. What are the chances of seeing THAT at a tourney?

Sarigar wrote:As an Ork player, 1-2 Land Raiders won't wreck my army. This is a reasonable number to be able to reliably deal with. 3+ and I start having issues, but this is heavily dependent on the parameters of the mission.

Sarigar, you must be mistaken. If the Ork player cannot kill the Land Raiders he is rubbish, the game is lost and you might as well not unpack your army. Dakka hath Spoken!

/sarcasm

Seriously though, another thinking man here. There IS more to the mission than killing the Land Raider. Guess what? If I shake your Land Raider, immobilize it or blow weapons off it that's just as good as killing it in most cases. Sure it takes more shots but then again, not ever mission is Kill Points.

There's more to a game than just a strict match up of one army against another, one unit against another. Tournaments amplify this truth. A player must plan to face ANY army, not just Orks. Take those three Land Raiders, please. I want to see the Eldar/Dark Eldar/IG/Tau player's face light up when he sees three easy Kill Points in his crosshairs.

number9dream wrote:This doesn't seem anything like infiltrate, I don't see why he'd lose this ability if an IC was attached - it says Snikrot and his unit afterall. I remember Stelek made post about using Snikrot/Grotsnik/Ghaz to outflank like that. It was a long time ago tho, so feel free to point me @ whatever FAQ has clarified this as illegal.l

Oh man... you *said his name*. Whatever you do, don't say it again and don't look in any mirrors. He might not have heard you.

Methinks 'Ard Boyz this weekend will speak for itself and breathe another day or two of life into this thread before killing it off with the results of the weekend.


WAAAAAAGGHHH!!!

Green Git seems to be taking the news that Orks aren't the top dog on the block a little too personally.

Elessar wrote:It's a unit special rule, so it's lost hen an IC joins. Stelek's good, but he's not god. He makes mistakes too - he also thought the Mandrake/Webway Portal combo was good (admittedly, so did I, until I thought about it for a few mins)
No FAQ is required, BRB holds the answer.

Ask Gwar! if you don't believe me.

Damnit :( I wanted to run the Snikrot/Grotsnik combo lol, it seemed fun.

Hollismason wrote:Ork armies have the ability to mechanize incredibly well add in they can have a Armour 14 transport for less than 120 points

If I can Glance it into uselessness with bolter spam it's not an AV14 vehicle.

Maybe saying that Orks suck is going too far. They're not a competetive Codex; against lists designed solely to win games built from Codexes like Tau, Eldar, Deldar or Smurfs, the Orks are going to find themselves without an answer nine times out of ten. Against AV14, and AV13 to an extent, you're buggered.

comparable to the wave serpent and you have something pretty nasty.

My interest is piqued; in what way is a 120pt Battlewagon comparable to a Wave Serpent?

Frank Fugger wrote:

If I can Glance it into uselessness with bolter spam it's not an AV14 vehicle.

Maybe saying that Orks suck is going too far. They're not a competetive Codex; against lists designed solely to win games built from Codexes like Tau, Eldar, Deldar or Smurfs, the Orks are going to find themselves without an answer nine times out of ten. Against AV14, and AV13 to an extent, you're buggered.

How are you going to bolter spam a Battlewagon? If you are shooting at the sides it is already to late.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frank Fugger wrote:

I've never played an Ork army with either of them, but they routinely crushed pretty much everything else I came up against to the extent that I had to promise to stop bringing them if I wanted to get a game. I'd be interested to know is how the average "competetive" Ork list would propose to deal with either of them, because quite frankly I can't see much of a way.

Frank Fugger wrote:As a Vulkan player who faces Orks regularly, I'd invite you to try throwing one or two Land Raiders or Crusaders into your lists and seeing how the Orks deal with them. It doesn't necessarily need to be a tailored AV14 list; something that includes the LRs in a competetive non-cheesy way. You might also like to put an Ironclad or two in there as well.

Basically, no matter what you do, if you run AV14 and 13 vehicles in such a way that ignoring them and chaqsing other units is not an option and destroying them is necessary for your opponent to achieve victory then the only thing an Ork player can do to handle you is tailor his list. Most other armies in 40K will rip Raider-spam lists to pieces, and can cope well enough with competetive lists that use AV14 as more than just a big shed for their Termies to get out of, but Orks can't. That's why they suck.

I am confused which is it? You play orks regularly or never?

I certainly have little issues with AV14 with my MegaNob Battlewagon spam.

Danny Internets wrote:Green Git seems to be taking the news that Orks aren't the top dog on the block a little too personally.

Nah, just the bleating of sheep that refuse to open their eyes.

Baaah... Land Raider... Baaaaaaaah.

methoderik wrote:How are you going to bolter spam a Battlewagon? If you are shooting at the sides it is already to late.

There are about a billion ways to drop masses of bolters behind a Battlewagon; Drop Pods, Deep Strike and Outflanking are the big ones, but OBEL comes in handy too. Pick your favourite.

I am confused which is it? You play orks regularly or never?

Re-read the thread and draw your own conclusions. Hint: I don't play Salamanders.

I certainly have little issues with AV14 with my MegaNob Battlewagon spam.

Course not, 'coz it's pretty much tailored to kill AV14. Well, as tailored as an Ork list can get. Play it against Mechdar/ Sisters-In-A-Box/ Power-Tau/ Mechvets and watch it get eaten.

I'm looking forward to winning 'Ard Boyz with my Orks.

I don't know what all this mumbo-jumbo is about orks being Tier 3, but you'll sing a different song after 'Ard Boyz!

Frank Fugger wrote:
There are about a billion ways to drop masses of bolters behind a Battlewagon; Drop Pods, Deep Strike and Outflanking are the big ones, but OBEL comes in handy too. Pick your favourite.

It really isn't about the battle wagon, but yet what is in it. If you bolter my BW to death, you are well within charge range.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Course not, 'coz it's pretty much tailored to kill AV14. Well, as tailored as an Ork list can get. Play it against Mechdar/ Sisters-In-A-Box/ Power-Tau/ Mechvets and watch it get eaten.

That's odd, played Mechdar and Mechvets this weekend, and they got eaten.

Have you played against the 4+ Battlewagon with Ghaz and Meganob spam?

methoderik wrote:It really isn't about the battle wagon, but yet what is in it. If you bolter my BW to death, you are well within charge range.

If it means your Wagon is out of commission for a turn, I'll take that charge

Have you played against the 4+ Battlewagon with Ghaz and Meganob spam?

I haven't had the pleasure. Sounds scary though, what with all those 24" BS2 1-shot per turn Krak missiles fired by 400pt-per-squad Slow And Purposeful models, that must be a real bloodbath. And the Battlewagons too, they're not in the least bit shoddy.

Frank Fugger wrote:
I haven't had the pleasure. Sounds scary though, what with all those 24" BS2 1-shot per turn Krak missiles fired by 400pt-per-squad Slow And Purposeful models, that must be a real bloodbath. And the Battlewagons too, they're not in the least bit shoddy.

Krak missiles? You think Slow and Purposeful really matters when your in a Battlewagon with Ghaz?

I guess you have said enough for me to understand...

I suppose so.

Riddle me this, though; Meganobz cost xx points each. How do you "spam" expensive units whose usefulness is so sorely limited?

Mega Nobz actually come cheaper than regular Nobz armed with Power Klaws do, which is cool. If you take Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can give them access to Feel No Pain and Cybork bits.

Frank Fugger wrote:I suppose so.

Riddle me this, though; Meganobz cost xx points each. How do you "spam" expensive units whose usefulness is so sorely limited?

Ghaz and a Cheap Warboss.

Riddle me this?

How do you call a scoring unit with 2+ save, 2 wounds, toughness 4, with 4 power klaw attacks, and a 26" charge sorely limited?

Baaahhhhhaaaa! Orks suck! Land Raiders!

Baaaaaaaaaaaa!

Nurglitch wrote:Mega Nobz actually come cheaper than regular Nobz armed with Power Klaws do, which is cool. If you take Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can give them access to Feel No Pain and Cybork bits.

The problem is that Feel no Pain is a waste for MANs. With two wounds and a 2+ save, they're not vulnerable to small arms fire whatsoever. Everything that ignores their armor ignores Feel no Pain, as does everything that ignores their two wounds (lascannons, for instance, or meltaguns).

What I would recommend is a Warboss (or Ghazzie) with a bosspole in the MAN squad, but MDG in a twenty or thirty boy ork squad (maybe with Eavy Armor or a battlewagon if you really want to get your use out of them). Then, MDG can still upgrade the MANs with a 5+ invul, which is great considering the possibility of that invul being used on two different wounds.


(Also, how many tiers are there total? Three? Five?)

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:I suppose so.

Riddle me this, though; Meganobz cost xx points each. How do you "spam" expensive units whose usefulness is so sorely limited?

Ghaz and a Cheap Warboss.

Riddle me this?

How do you call a scoring unit with 2+ save, 2 wounds, toughness 4, with 4 power klaw attacks, and a 26" charge sorely limited?

Its actually 27-29" charge range if you have red paint.

@Frank Fugger - Battlewagons ARE comparable to Wave Serpents.

In cost.

The Green Git - I find that offensive.

The Green Git wrote:Baaahhhhhaaaa! Orks suck! Land Raiders!

Baaaaaaaaaaaa!

Please stop spamming this thread. If you have nothing useful to add, please do not post. This is not an acceptable way to make your point.

I think that the "good" Ork build is now mass battlewagons; Nob Bikers, if they were ever really good, have been thoroughly metagamed out of true viability.

A fun way to kill land raiders is a pair of warpheadz. one of them is likely to get a Zapp and if your 16 inches away thats 2d6 armour penetration. not to mention that it hits automatically. so if you get a double 2 its a glance thats pretty damn good. i got armour pen 20 once (thats the bet in the game at that range) Tank blew up good hur hur hur.

other methods include shokk attack gun, suicide trukk ram (full speed+road+reinforced ram= strength ten hit) nice image as well considering the trukk is going to explode on impact. zagstrukk's swoop. zapp guns work well. boomgunz, wreking ballz

and whats wrong with using deff rollaz (if it counts against vehicles) you just crush everything between the two tanks then disembark your nobz or tankbustaz or whatever and have anutha go. the best bet is to stun or imobilize it then use one of the killy units to finish it.

The whole tier concept dosn't mesh well with me. all the armys are capable of killer lists, some just take more exploration and finesse to find, while others are just out right obvious *cough*lash*cough*. the big thing people wing about is that orks can do anything well. mech= trukks, dreads=11 dreads, shooty=all da dakka, assault= all da choppa, horde= boyz, elite= nobz there is no uber list. every one has its weak points.

I think Lash is way overrated. I'm glad someone finally mentioned Zzap Guns - I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth trying to use Artillery in the 2/3 missions it's not pathetic...

Frank Fugger wrote:
There are about a billion ways to drop masses of bolters behind a Battlewagon; Drop Pods, Deep Strike and Outflanking are the big ones, but OBEL comes in handy too. Pick your favourite.

You're not going to do anything to a battlewagon with bolters. Your change to kill it, even if it is open topped is rediculously minute. Its also then the worst place for you to be in if you are within 12" of it. The point of battlewagons, like landraider, isnt to cause damage themselves, but to carry big nasty things that can. If you DS a squad or two next to a battlewagon and manage to do anything to it at all you will get charged and killed by whats inside.

cody.d. wrote:A fun way to kill land raiders is a pair of warpheadz. one of them is likely to get a Zapp and if your 16 inches away thats 2d6 armour penetration. not to mention that it hits automatically. so if you get a double 2 its a glance thats pretty damn good. i got armour pen 20 once (thats the bet in the game at that range) Tank blew up good hur hur hur.

Two warpheads use up both of your HQ slots, which would be better served taking a warboss or big mek. Even if you have two you only have a 1/3 chance per turn to get the right power, which then may not even work. Using these for primary anti-tank is just silly.

cody.d. wrote:
other methods include shokk attack gun, suicide trukk ram (full speed+road+reinforced ram= strength ten hit) nice image as well considering the trukk is going to explode on impact. zagstrukk's swoop. zapp guns work well. boomgunz, wreking ballz

You cant count on every game using roads and you certainly cant count on a vehicle sitting on it. Zagstrukk is good but then again you rely on getting lucky with your reserve roll and scatter. Zag may not turn up until turn 5 or you may scatter onto the vehicle you are trying to kill and get destroyed. Zzap guns are just plain awful for killing tanks. Against AV14 you get a 1/3.6 chance to be able to even hurt it. Then you may not hit of course, because even grots have piss poor BS. Boomguns, like all ordnance, have too high a change to scatter to be good at killing tanks. Wrecking ball need to get to their targets to cause damage, and orks have much better ways to get S9 his.

cody.d. wrote:
and whats wrong with using deff rollaz (if it counts against vehicles) you just crush everything between the two tanks then disembark your nobz or tankbustaz or whatever and have anutha go. the best bet is to stun or imobilize it then use one of the killy units to finish it.

A lot of places dont allow you to use dethrollas against vehicles, so these cant be used as anti0tank either.

Elessar wrote:I think Lash is way overrated. I'm glad someone finally mentioned Zzap Guns - I'm beginning to wonder if it's worth trying to use Artillery in the 2/3 missions it's not pathetic...

Lash is only getting worse now that everyone is FINALLY figuring out that mech armies are better in 5th. Zzap guns arent worth it. Too low BS and too low a chance to get the strength you need to even scratch the paint on a heavy tank make them all but useless.

Generally orks are still pretty good, but the lists need to keep evolving. Nob bikers suffer because eveyone runs counters to them. Tide suffers because everyone can throw out a disgusting amount of templates to rate of fire weapons. Kan horde suffers because everyone is stocking up on meltas and they get hurt bu vehicle squadron rules.

I think that mech orks is the way to go. Landraiders asside, to deal with transports you have to load up on lootas and rokkits. Orks can get loads of rokkits, some of which will hit even though you are only BS2. In a 2000pt list you can easily get 15+ rokkits and some lootas to deal with transports. After that you still have enough boys to sweep up everything that left.

Dealing with landraiders will always be a problem for orks. If there was an easy solution to them we would have figured it out already. They best you can hope for is a lucky glance from a rokkit or hitting it with a PK, but even then its not certain.

Regwon wrote:Zzap guns are just plain awful for killing tanks. Against AV14 you get a 1/3.6 chance to be able to even hurt it. Then you may not hit of course, because even grots have piss poor BS. Boomguns, like all ordnance, have too high a change to scatter to be good at killing tanks. Wrecking ball need to get to their targets to cause damage, and orks have much better ways to get S9 his.

QFT. Zzap guns are great Terminator killers but lousy anti-tank weapons. If they only left the auto-hit rule they would be worth it. Errata it in, Phil Kelly.

Regwon wrote:I think that mech orks is the way to go. Landraiders asside, to deal with transports you have to load up on lootas and rokkits. Orks can get loads of rokkits, some of which will hit even though you are only BS2. In a 2000pt list you can easily get 15+ rokkits and some lootas to deal with transports. After that you still have enough boys to sweep up everything that left.

Dealing with landraiders will always be a problem for orks. If there was an easy solution to them we would have figured it out already. They best you can hope for is a lucky glance from a rokkit or hitting it with a PK, but even then its not certain.

Mech Orks will work just like Mech IG works, except you are substituting Trukks for Chimeras and PKs for Meltas. You don't hit as often but get more tries.

Couple Battlewagons with WAC Ork Mobs, a Boss and KFF Mek, Trukk spam w/PK Nobs, some Kans... Bob's your uncle. Orks will survive and adapt. More enemy vehicles means less boots on the ground which just makes the Shoota Boyz mop up job easier.

AV 14 is just difficult to deal with there just is not alot in the Ork army that can deal with it. Also, I say and people I play that deffrollas work on vehicles. So that works out well.

The only reliable method I have see of destroying tanks is tankbustas riding around with a boarding plank.

Isn't the obviuos answer to just add wrecking balls and rokkits to all the vehicles. That backed by PK nobs should handle armor nicely. Through in boarding planks too if thats big a deal.

GG

Nurglitch wrote:Mega Nobz actually come cheaper than regular Nobz armed with Power Klaws do, which is cool. If you take Mad Doc Grotsnik, you can give them access to Feel No Pain and Cybork bits.

Someone else has already mentioned that FnP is a waste for MANs, so I won't do that. As far as the 5++ save goes, meh. So what; all that does is give me slightly (note; SLIGHTLY, because 5+ saves are fail) less inclination to waste to-hit dice on them in the shooting phase. Which gives me more incentive to shoot your gakky Battlewagons. Which means your Slow and Purposeful goons are Slowly and Purposefully walking around with their BS2 and their SnP Fleet Powerklaws.

methoderik wrote:How do you call a scoring unit with 2+ save, 2 wounds, toughness 4, with 4 power klaw attacks, and a 26" charge sorely limited?

You don't, you prove it by asking it to tackle AV14. Which it can't.

Or survive Prism blasts. Again, not going to happen.

Dashofpepper wrote:Its actually 27-29" charge range if you have red paint.

That's actually quite cool. Shame your BS is garbage and WS doesn't matter a jot against moving vehicles.

Elessar wrote:@Frank Fugger - Battlewagons ARE comparable to Wave Serpents.

In cost.

Yeah; they're very much the equal of Wave Serpents in that regard

cody.d. wrote:A fun way to kill land raiders is a pair of warpheadz. one of them is likely to get a Zapp and if your 16 inches away thats 2d6 armour penetration. not to mention that it hits automatically. so if you get a double 2 its a glance thats pretty damn good. i got armour pen 20 once (thats the bet in the game at that range) Tank blew up good hur hur hur.

I've had an armour pen roll of 28 with a Vindicare Assassin. Does that suddenly mean he's an OMGWTFOSSOM tank-buster? No. He's better than the Warphead though, because although he's limited to one Turbo Penetrator a game he doesn't have to dice for it.

By the by, you can score 20 on a pen roll with meltabombs.

other methods include shokk attack gun,

Okay, I'm sitting here bashing Orks, and will continue to do so, but I've got to admit; I love the SAT. It's not a counter to AV14, at least not a good one, but by crikey it's a fun thing to have on the table, almost as fun as a Deathstrike launcher.

suicide trukk ram (full speed+road+reinforced ram= strength ten hit) nice image as well considering the trukk is going to explode on impact. zagstrukk's swoop. zapp guns work well. boomgunz, wreking ballz

and whats wrong with using deff rollaz (if it counts against vehicles)

What's wrong with it; a gak-load of things, to be honest. On the surface of it Deffrolla-spam is good. You can get, potentially, 7 of them in a list, and for not a great deal of points, plus enough other gak to offer reasonable back-up.

The thing is, though, it relies on your Battlewagons being able to move every turn, and since they're 14-12-10 it won't be hard to stop them doing that. S4 weapons and CC attacks will do it nicely. Then you've got to consider that if you take your Deffrollas to the wrong club your entire list and the strategy that goes with it is down the pan. Not everyone agrees that they work on Ramming (I do, but that's by the by).

Plus it won't work on Skimmer armies, so it's not a catch-all solution. Either you'll never catch them or you'll never hit them. Skimmers with Lance weapons will further ruin your day.

you just crush everything between the two tanks then disembark your nobz or tankbustaz or whatever and have anutha go.

Hit on 6, Glance on 6. I'm positively trembling. Wait, I forgot about tank-hammers.... so hit on 6, glance on 4. Wow. Colour me terrified.

The whole tier concept dosn't mesh well with me. all the armys are capable of killer lists, some just take more exploration and finesse to find, while others are just out right obvious *cough*lash*cough*. the big thing people wing about is that orks can do anything well. mech= trukks, dreads=11 dreads, shooty=all da dakka, assault= all da choppa, horde= boyz, elite= nobz there is no uber list. every one has its weak points.

No, I'm not a fan of the Tier or Metagame bollocks either to be Frank, which I am. On the internets, at least. Still, you've got to admit that building an Ork army that'll handle everything is more difficult than trying to build one from most other Codexes.

Regwon wrote:You're not going to do anything to a battlewagon with bolters. Your change to kill it, even if it is open topped is rediculously minute.

This sort of thinking is what I like in opponents. It's why my 70pt Termie/ Psycannon Inquisitors can cripple mech lists (and, partly, because nobody ever expects them). I don't need to destroy your sweaty Battlewagon with the Bolters or Gauss Blasters or Stormbolters or whatever; I just have to Stun it for a turn, and then hope you're enough of an idiot to disembark models from it to charge the mighty bolter-bearing pawns that have Stunned your vehicle, so you then have to feth around and waste another turn re-embarking once the Stun wears off and thus aren't moving anywhere particularly useful.

Tactics are fun to use, especially against units open to exploitation such as gakky AV10 rear vehicles that people think are AV14.

Its also then the worst place for you to be in if you are within 12" of it. The point of battlewagons, like landraider, isnt to cause damage themselves, but to carry big nasty things that can.

Yeah, because that's why you arm a 14-14-14 vehicle with 3 weapons and give it the ability to fire on the move at different targets. Because it's designed solely to operate as an Assault Vehicle.

Elessar wrote:I think Lash is way overrated.

Here here! OHNOES a Lash DP with wings! I sure do wish my army was mech, so's... oh wait, silly me!

ProTip: Warptime rules all. Seriously; the days of Lash are numbered. Having a MC that can reroll to hit on the charge gives you yet another way to deal with moving vehicles.

Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

Danny Internets wrote:

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

If they moved more than 6"... Still that is 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit... yeah not to scary!?

And if they Kill Ghaz and 9 MANZ after, then well they deserved it. Typically though, some those 18 toughness 4 2+save wounds and 4 toughness 5 2+ save wounds make it through. What you are forgetting is that this is turn 2, and you have just been hit with 3 other Battlewagons as well.

Danny Internets wrote:

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

Your Land Raider this... my Battlewagon that... I know I said I've never played a Wagon-spam army (which is telling in itself) but, given that it relies on spamming unspammable gakky units, I can pretty much guarantee it'll be a pile of spank. Spam relies on two things; being able to do everything, and being hard to kill. Your Battlewagons fulfil neither of those requirements, and neither do the fatties you're running in them. Sure, as long as you can fit enough Wagons into your list you'll likely handle my Raider-spam (at 1750pts I can fit 4 with Multimeltas, plus a unit of TH/ SS Termies and 3 scoring units, so I reckon 5 or 6 Wagons would just about do it), but when it comes to a properly-played Mechdar list, Power-Tau or even fething Deldar Raider platforms, you're going to be seen off.

Face it, you play a shoddy Codex that needs a rethink. Instead of coming up with nonsensical tailored lists and proffering bollocky counters to AV14 that leave you wide open to... well, pretty much everything aside from AV14, accept the fact that the Ork Codex isn't a 5th Edition Codex in any sense of the word and move on.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Your Land Raider this... my Battlewagon that... I know I said I've never played a Wagon-spam army (which is telling in itself) but, given that it relies on spamming unspammable gakky units, I can pretty much guarantee it'll be a pile of spank. Spam relies on two things; being able to do everything, and being hard to kill. Your Battlewagons fulfil neither of those requirements, and neither do the fatties you're running in them. Sure, as long as you can fit enough Wagons into your list you'll likely handle my Raider-spam (at 1750pts I can fit 4 with Multimeltas, plus a unit of TH/ SS Termies and 3 scoring units, so I reckon 5 or 6 Wagons would just about do it), but when it comes to a properly-played Mechdar list, Power-Tau or even fething Deldar Raider platforms, you're going to be seen off.

Face it, you play a shoddy Codex that needs a rethink. Instead of coming up with nonsensical tailored lists and proffering bollocky counters to AV14 that leave you wide open to... well, pretty much everything aside from AV14, accept the fact that the Ork Codex isn't a 5th Edition Codex in any sense of the word and move on.

Apparently you know everything so I won't waste to much breath. You are slamming my list without every having seeing it, let alone playing against it, so you really are talking out of your arse anyway.

Your denial of the Ork being a competitive 5th edition codex is in the end, your problem.

Power-Tau.... funny.

ps. We've missed you . Not.

If they moved more than 6"... Still that is 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit... yeah not to scary!?

This demonstrates exactly why you find yourself on the wrong side of a bad argument.

The reason why Orks can't deal with Land Raiders is because anyone who isn't an idiot is going to move more than 6" with them every single turn while in charge range. That's the whole point. That's why Orks can't deal with them. Did you really not understand that?

To answer your question, no, that's not very scary. AV 14 shrugs most of the S9 off, and will shrug off the S10 half of the time. And none of it is AP 1. If you need to spend 5/600 points just to do that then you're in dire straights.

methoderik wrote:Apparently you know everything so I won't waste to much breath. You are slamming my list without every having seeing it, let alone playing against it, so you really are talking out of your arse anyway.

So post it up; let's see it. I did try making one myself, but when I realised I'd have, at best, 50 MANs at 1500pts before I wedge Ghaz and the Wagons in there I decided to abandon it.

Your denial of the Ork being a competitive 5th edition codex is in the end, your problem.

I don't run Orks so it's not my problem at all. If I did, I'd be worried that people such as your good self are touting them as an effective Codex when they're really not; the more GW think people are satisfied with their garbage the less inclined they'll be to change it. If I were you I'd be clamouring for an actual solution to the problem of dealing with AV14 as opposed to just pulling ineffective non-answers out of your backside and trying to pass them off as uber. I'd also suggest learning to use a Land Raider properly; it requires a lot more zen than simply putting it on the table and counting on it to just be "better" than anything your opponent has, and if people are using them this way against you they're doing it wrong.

Power-Tau.... funny.

Not really. Battlesuits are a fething pain to tie down and Railheads/ Broadsides are just evil. They're one of the few truly competetive builds that a Raider-spam list will pick off though, so it's not all that bad for a spam-monger like me.

ps. We've missed you . Not.

I think I understand this but I'm not sure. You'll have to elucidate.

Frank isn't stelek, if that's what people are thinking.

Danny Internets wrote:
This demonstrates exactly why you find yourself on the wrong side of a bad argument.

The reason why Orks can't deal with Land Raiders is because anyone who isn't an idiot is going to move more than 6" with them every single turn while in charge range. That's the whole point. That's why Orks can't deal with them. Did you really not understand that?

To answer your question, no, that's not very scary. AV 14 shrugs most of the S9 off, and will shrug off the S10 half of the time. And none of it is AP 1. If you need to spend 5/600 points just to do that then you're in dire straights.

I feel like I am beating my head against a wall. I see your points, I do, but I think you are attacking one situational match up. I was really responding to the whole "Orks can't deal with AV14" routine. Yes, your Landraider is going to move 6+" when they see a bunch of Battlewagons, but they are not skimmers. Their movement can/will be quickly limited. Than there is the other 60-75% of my Army out there.

I guess in your circle's Orks can't deal with Armor 14, Cool. But in mine, while not a gimmee task, it can be handled.

AV14 Shrugs of S9 one at a time, same kinda with S10. Multiples of each will eventually end it.

I will spend 400-600 on Ghaz and Co. every time. They just do to much not to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frank Fugger wrote:
So post it up; let's see it. I did try making one myself, but when I realised I'd have, at best, 50 MANs at 1500pts before I wedge Ghaz and the Wagons in there I decided to abandon it.

I hardly see how this would be a good use of my time. It is far from being a tourney winner, but has performed very well. Once I get some more time with it under my belt we will see.

Frank Fugger wrote:
I don't run Orks so it's not my problem at all. If I did, I'd be worried that people such as your good self are touting them as an effective Codex when they're really not; the more GW think people are satisfied with their garbage the less inclined they'll be to change it. If I were you I'd be clamouring for an actual solution to the problem of dealing with AV14 as opposed to just pulling ineffective non-answers out of your backside and trying to pass them off as uber. I'd also suggest learning to use a Land Raider properly; it requires a lot more zen than simply putting it on the table and counting on it to just be "better" than anything your opponent has, and if people are using them this way against you they're doing it wrong.

I am not passing anything off as uber. I am just disagreeing that Orks are "tier 3" just yet. You asked if they have reliable AV14 death, I say they do.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Not really. Battlesuits are a fething pain to tie down and Railheads/ Broadsides are just evil. They're one of the few truly competetive builds that a Raider-spam list will pick off though, so it's not all that bad for a spam-monger like me.

They are effective enough sure... but Power-Tau? Sorry, they lose to many match-ups they are going to see regularly. You can win, but it is going to be situational.

What is the point about arguing how well Orks can deal with a Land Raider? Does any army "easily deal with a Land Raider"?

You guys act as if you can't win games without killing your opponent's land raiders. That is just a ridiculous assumption.

If you seriously think that Orks are better than Tau, I don't know what to say.

Fetterkey wrote:If you seriously think that Orks are better than Tau, I don't know what to say.

"Yes Sir Warboss Sir" would be the proper response. I'm thinking of picking up Tau again because I want to be challenged. Local players cheered when I sold my Tau to another player and then showed up with my shiny (as shiny as grey plastic could be at the time) new Ork army right after the new codex came out. Everybody had a reason to take Farsight! Give you a guess or two how well that worked out. (Hint: Against any army other than Orks (1 loss), Necrons (4 losses), and Tyranids (3 losses), the 10+ games per month I played steadily since then my record with Orks starts with "un" and rhymes with "defeated")

What is the point about arguing how well Orks can deal with a Land Raider? Does any army "easily deal with a Land Raider"?

Vulkan armies do. And they're the most popular SM variant in tournaments by a wide margin.

You guys act as if you can't win games without killing your opponent's land raiders. That is just a ridiculous assumption.

Not being able to kill the Land Raiders allows the owner of the Land Raiders to dictate how and where the battle is fought. That's an invaluable advantage, especially when objectives are involved. Multiply that advantage times two if the LR's are Redeemers vs Orks.

It's not about killing your opponent's Land Raiders. Follow the thread properly and you'll see it's more about what Orks can't do in general; dealing with AV14 without getting served in return is just one such thing.

methoderik wrote:I feel like I am beating my head against a wall. I see your points, I do, but I think you are attacking one situational match up. I was really responding to the whole "Orks can't deal with AV14" routine. Yes, your Landraider is going to move 6+" when they see a bunch of Battlewagons, but they are not skimmers. Their movement can/will be quickly limited. Than there is the other 60-75% of my Army out there.

How can/ will it be "quickly limited"? I can move each of my Land Raiders 12" and still fire a single weapon; which, given the gak your Wagons are carrying, will probably be 12" towards your Wagons and the Multimelta. OH NO don't shoot at me with BS2 rockets or charge me needing 6's to hit, assuming you can SnP far enough!

I guess in your circle's Orks can't deal with Armor 14, Cool. But in mine, while not a gimmee task, it can be handled.

In which case your AV14 players are doing it wrong.

AV14 Shrugs of S9 one at a time, same kinda with S10. Multiples of each will eventually end it.

Assuming you can bring those multiples to bear. Multiple bolter shots will eventually end your Battlewagons; multiple lascannon and Multimelta shots will do it quicker, and from further away. And while moving.

I will spend 400-600 on Ghaz and Co. every time. They just do to much not to.

I feel you, man. Honestly I do. I used to think throwing Calgar into a list so's I could choose when my Smurfs ran away was the done thing too, until I realised that, for the same amount of points, I could get a Land Raider. Or a kitted out Sternguard squad in a Drop Pod. Or two and a half Melta Dreadpods. Never looked back since.

I hardly see how this would be a good use of my time. It is far from being a tourney winner,

And so we come to the pertinent point in the whole shebang. It's far from being a tournament winner. See below.

I am not passing anything off as uber. I am just disagreeing that Orks are "tier 3" just yet. You asked if they have reliable AV14 death, I say they do.

What the feth is Tier 3? Tier systems are bollocks. It's not a matter of Tiers; you're always going to be able to make an army list from any book that can beat a certain set-up from another book. Hell, I reckon I could take your Wagon-spam list to any gaming club in the land and, once I'd gotten a handle on the nuances of it, give most lists a run for their money. Most lists that weren't set up purely to win games, with all the fat trimmed off and all possible streamlining done. Thing is, there aren't many books from which you can make an army list that will handle anything that's thrown at it. The Eldar codex is one. The Tau codex is another. Smurfs and ChaoSmurfs do well, as do Mech Sisters, Space Wolves, and, to an extent, Radical Daemonhunters (as long as your Allied Smurf contingent is heavy and you take the right Elites). Orks don't. They just don't. There's a difference between being able to

They are effective enough sure... but Power-Tau? Sorry, they lose to many match-ups they are going to see regularly. You can win, but it is going to be situational.

Just... yeah. Power-Tau's Heavy Support and Fast Attack units are probably going to have your entire army list handled before it's gotten halfway across the board.

What you need to realise here is that nobody is attacking your abilities as a player. feth that, if you can manage to wrangle a win from a Mechdar list with a load of Battlewagons and some MANs then you must be doing something right. You are, however, the exception rather than the rule, and if you ARE winning games then it's down to you; and possibly your opponents. Certainly your opponents, because if they're running AV14 properly you shouldn't be able to touch them, much less whup them time and again.

What people are saying is that the Ork Codex has a lot of fatal flaws. You can see it yourself; the Wagon-spam list ain't a tourney winner, and given the fact (I'm assuming) it relies on a set principle (close in, Tank Shock, release the fatties) which can be countered in any number of ways it probably never will be, because lists that ARE tourney winners will be able to counter it and do it emphatically, as they do against everything else. Power-Tau, for instance; how many Battlewagons are you going to get across the table while you're being pounded with Markerlit S10 AP1 shots from however-many inches away? What about the Piranhas; those things are going to be on you so fast you haven't got a hope in hell of stopping it, and when they get there your Wagons will be dealing with Melta in addition to Markerlit S10 boom-boom. THen, of course, there are the Battlesuits to consider. They just have too much on the table.

So, yeah. It's not about how well you do, or how well such and such a list does, because lord knows a new player can take the best list in the world and horse every game they play with it within the first two turns. It's about stacking up the cans and cannots of different Codexes against one another, and when you start doing that you realise that Orks, whilst they come out a lot better than some in a lot of ways (including my beloved Daemonhunters :( ) they just have too many holes in their abilities to be called "competetive". Simply put, you should be able to build a list from a competetive Codex that, with the right player, can be used against anything else and have at least a 50-50 chance of success. You just can't do that with the Ork 'Dex, in any way, because there's too much they just can't do consistently.

This is just hilarious. Just something like month ago, we had a long thread about how Tau suck, and will lose especially against Orks. Now, apparently, Orks have no chance against Tau. That's some turnaround.

Frank Fugger wrote:
How can/ will it be "quickly limited"? I can move each of my Land Raiders 12" and still fire a single weapon; which, given the gak your Wagons are carrying, will probably be 12" towards your Wagons and the Multimelta. OH NO don't shoot at me with BS2 rockets or charge me needing 6's to hit, assuming you can SnP far enough!

Please, stop mentioning rockets when you reply to my posts. I never use them.
I will catch your Land Raider. With Ghaz I can charge his unit, and every other Ork unit in a Battlewagon, 26 inches. I understand I will need sixes to hit, but please you understand that the base MANZ model has 3 attacks, 4 on the charge. These are going to be at strength 9 and their are going to be 20-36 depending on the unit size. Then also understand there are going to be 7 strength 10 attacks from Ghaz.
Sorry, but at that point your Raider is going to be done.

At some point, that LR is going to have to sit still and claim an objective.

Frank Fugger wrote:In which case your AV14 players are doing it wrong.

No we play them just fine thank you. I love the Raider Spam as much as the next guy. I love how you guys blast my 400-600 point unit BW list, then you come at me with Land Raider spam. There are a lot of similarities.

Frank Fugger wrote:Assuming you can bring those multiples to bear. Multiple bolter shots will eventually end your Battlewagons; multiple lascannon and Multimelta shots will do it quicker, and from further away. And while moving.

Most of my Army charges on Turn 2. Your gonna stop 4+ Battlwagons in 2 turns or less? Never mind where they were deployed.

Frank Fugger wrote:I feel you, man. Honestly I do. I used to think throwing Calgar into a list so's I could choose when my Smurfs ran away was the done thing too, until I realised that, for the same amount of points, I could get a Land Raider. Or a kitted out Sternguard squad in a Drop Pod. Or two and a half Melta Dreadpods. Never looked back since.

I have never brought Calgar so I would not know.

Frank Fugger wrote:And so we come to the pertinent point in the whole shebang. It's far from being a tournament winner. See below.

Yet. I have only used versions of it in 3 Tournaments so far. A little more tweaking and training, I see potential.

Frank Fugger wrote:
What the feth is Tier 3? Tier systems are bollocks. It's not a matter of Tiers; you're always going to be able to make an army list from any book that can beat a certain set-up from another book. Hell, I reckon I could take your Wagon-spam list to any gaming club in the land and, once I'd gotten a handle on the nuances of it, give most lists a run for their money. Most lists that weren't set up purely to win games, with all the fat trimmed off and all possible streamlining done. Thing is, there aren't many books from which you can make an army list that will handle anything that's thrown at it. The Eldar codex is one. The Tau codex is another. Smurfs and ChaoSmurfs do well, as do Mech Sisters, Space Wolves, and, to an extent, Radical Daemonhunters (as long as your Allied Smurf contingent is heavy and you take the right Elites). Orks don't. They just don't. There's a difference between being able to

You want me to follow the thread properly... oh wait, I see what you are doing here. Nice accent, it almost translates into type.

Dude, you just listed like more than half of the codices!

Frank Fugger wrote:Power-Tau's Heavy Support and Fast Attack units are probably going to have your entire army list handled before it's gotten halfway across the board.

I have won a couple of Tournaments with Tau so don't feel like I am not a believer. Maybe I just found to many exploitable holes playing them so much. Their LD is their death.

Frank Fugger wrote:What you need to realise here is that nobody is attacking your abilities as a player. feth that, if you can manage to wrangle a win from a Mechdar list with a load of Battlewagons and some MANs then you must be doing something right. You are, however, the exception rather than the rule, and if you ARE winning games then it's down to you; and possibly your opponents. Certainly your opponents, because if they're running AV14 properly you shouldn't be able to touch them, much less whup them time and again.

What people are saying is that the Ork Codex has a lot of fatal flaws. You can see it yourself; the Wagon-spam list ain't a tourney winner, and given the fact (I'm assuming) it relies on a set principle (close in, Tank Shock, release the fatties) which can be countered in any number of ways it probably never will be, because lists that ARE tourney winners will be able to counter it and do it emphatically, as they do against everything else. Power-Tau, for instance; how many Battlewagons are you going to get across the table while you're being pounded with Markerlit S10 AP1 shots from however-many inches away? What about the Piranhas; those things are going to be on you so fast you haven't got a hope in hell of stopping it, and when they get there your Wagons will be dealing with Melta in addition to Markerlit S10 boom-boom. THen, of course, there are the Battlesuits to consider. They just have too much on the table.

So, yeah. It's not about how well you do, or how well such and such a list does, because lord knows a new player can take the best list in the world and horse every game they play with it within the first two turns. It's about stacking up the cans and cannots of different Codexes against one another, and when you start doing that you realise that Orks, whilst they come out a lot better than some in a lot of ways (including my beloved Daemonhunters :( ) they just have too many holes in their abilities to be called "competetive". Simply put, you should be able to build a list from a competetive Codex that, with the right player, can be used against anything else and have at least a 50-50 chance of success. You just can't do that with the Ork 'Dex, in any way, because there's too much they just can't do consistently.

I think I will be okay, thanks for caring.

I guess I feel like I can build a competitive list from the Ork codex and use it against anything else and have at least a 50-50 chance of success. So there!

I am yet to see an Ork list I'm worried by, speaking from the perspective of my MechDar. 9 Grav Tanks @1750 beats 9 Killa Kans, 2 Deff Dreads, 2 KFFs, 24 Lootas, and 90 Shootas...

And that's the best Ork list I've played against. Nothing else has the requisite frontage to reduce my mobility, or the survivability. Battlewagons can't take Bright Lances in a race, and MANs vs Fire Dragons and Yriel only ends one way...

Backfire wrote:This is just hilarious. Just something like month ago, we had a long thread about how Tau suck, and will lose especially against Orks. Now, apparently, Orks have no chance against Tau. That's some turnaround.

Welcome to dakkadakka!

From Frank's perspective, no Ork army should be able to beat ANY list that contains a landraider. Either the player with a land raider is bad, or got very unlucky. Don't you all find that a little bit ridiculous?

I gotta admit, it's kinda hard to listen to your ramblings when you aren't even an Ork player yourself. All you are doing is saying blanket statements like "LOOK AT ALL THESE NASTY TAU UNITS! ORKS CANNOT BEAT THEM!" without any real reasoning. You just seem to be naming units from other codexes and going "LOOK HOW MUCH THIS UNIT CRUSHES ORKS!!". I've yet to really read a compelling argument from you except statements like "ORKS JUST AREN'T A COMPETITIVE CODEX".

You don't even seem to be able to put a list together on your own, and I must say, playing a codex in many many games does a lot more for evaluating their effectiveness than playing against somebody's Ork list or simply reading their codex.

skipdog172 wrote:From Frank's perspective, no Ork army should be able to beat ANY list that contains a landraider. Either the player with a land raider is bad, or got very unlucky. Don't you all find that a little bit ridiculous?

Who are you talking to? I'm over here, mate; talk to me. Don't worry about them, they'll make their own mind up.

I gotta admit, it's kinda hard to listen to your ramblings when you aren't even an Ork player yourself.

I'm not an Ork player out and out, but I do dabble. I'm mostly a DH player though, which means I know how it feels to have a gakky Codex that can't hang with the big boys, to try and tell yourself that the only reason you don't win tournaments or events against streamlined comp lists is because you weren't good enough on the day, and then to one day realise, after switching armies for a while, that it's feth all to do with you; it's about the huge, gaping holes in your Codexes capabilities and GW's insistence upon adding to them by skewing the game so's they can sell more tank kits.

It's not that I can't win games with my DH or Grey Knights. I can win games all day long. I just can't answer a lot of the questions a competetive environment asks of you with the tools I have to hand.

All you are doing is saying blanket statements like "LOOK AT ALL THESE NASTY TAU UNITS! ORKS CANNOT BEAT THEM!" without any real reasoning.

I thought my last post contained an in-depth look at why Battlewagons are not a good idea against Power-Tau. Named individual units in doing it, sure, but how else are you supposed to compare list to list without naming units? Stack up the copncepts they run on? Okay, let's do that then; Power-Tau have expendable Troops units and a fething gak-ton of S6+ weaponry, can split their fire, have Melta weapons, and can both run you ragged AND stand and plug away. Battlewagon spam seems to rely on moving the Battlewagons and MANs into B2B with your opponent as fast as possible, and I'm not really sure how you'd go about that when you've got S10 AP1 gak pounding you from the corner of the board or Melta weapons being Fast Skimmered into your face.

You just seem to be naming units from other codexes and going "LOOK HOW MUCH THIS UNIT CRUSHES ORKS!!". I've yet to really read a compelling argument from you except statements like "ORKS JUST AREN'T A COMPETITIVE CODEX".

If you think statements like "ORKS JUST AREN'T A COMPETITIVE CODEX" are compelling arguments, which is what you seem to be suggesting here, then I question the need to work any harder to convince you.

And turn your caps lock off, you child.

You don't even seem to be able to put a list together on your own, and I must say, playing a codex in many many games does a lot more for evaluating their effectiveness than playing against somebody's Ork list or simply reading their codex.

So what, I'm going to go out and drop £200 on Wagon-spam models to play-test a list I don't even know for the sake of lending a bit more credence to my argument that Orks aren't competetive?

Piss off. You've got my opinion, and it seems to me that it's an opinion shared by a lot of other folk on this site. Note, not one I've convinced them of, but rather one they've reached on their own. The only people who don't seem to share it are the folk who seem to think that because they win games with their Orks, that somehow makes the Codex fine. I win games with my Daemonhunters. I've been trouncing my mate's Mordians since the new Codex came out, and I've beaten Tau players, Eldar players, Sisters, Smurfs (fething easy pickings... don't charge Grey Knights with your gakky powerfist Tactical Squad, kids, it ends in tears for you), ChaoSmurfs. Does that mean Daemonhunters are a competetive army? Our resident Tyranids player hasn't lost a game to my DH yet since I started playing again (fething Zoanthropes... >_< Does that mean Nids are a competetive Codex? What about Necrons, I've lost a few games to them too.

Competetiveness has feth all to do with your personal experience of playing the army. It has everything to do with stacking the capabilities of Codexes up against one another and seeing how each one answers the questions the other ones pose. Fact is, like a lot of the other Codexes (over half of them, apparently ), there are a lot of questions you can ask of Orks that they have no answer to. AV14 is one. Long range firepower is another. Variety is yet another. The list, she goes on.

skipdog172 wrote:From Frank's perspective, no Ork army should be able to beat ANY list that contains a landraider. Either the player with a land raider is bad, or got very unlucky. Don't you all find that a little bit ridiculous?

Yes.

Save your breath, skipdog. You'd be better off painting or something than arguing with this lot. They're convinced.

If your group plays Deffrollas work on vehicles then they are a good way of dealing with Landraiders.


Honestly its one vehicle seriously, one, one vehicle.

One specific type as well the Lascannon doesnt honestly do much versus orks sure against Battlewagons its sort of good.


This whole ORKS SUCK bEAUCE MARinaez have these AV14 is ridiculous and needs to stop.


You know what Marines are useless against Marines DONT EVER PLAY MARINEZ DUDERZ. Redeemers and Crusaders are going to be moving forward towards your delicious str 9 powerclaws. If you have tankbustas Great.

But heres the thing, a good army (composition score) should have a variety of units and not maxed out land raiders or maxed out meganobz, so no matter whats on the other side of the table two or three units working together should be able to kill it in a turn.

For instance, rokkits try stun or immobilize landraider, nobz jump out trukk and try to kill it, (hitting automatically) while this is happening blocks of boys or what ever are threatening the rest of the army, giving two choices get bogged down by horde or get killed nobz mob. a regular nobz mob can achieve a lot.

oh and I didn't say any of the antitank units were reliable, just fun. 2 warp heads in most types of mobz (for the leadership boost) can cause a lot of amusing havoc. make one zogwort. Hah your a squig now Calgar!

methoderik wrote:

Danny Internets wrote:

methoderik wrote:
Dude, now you are just arguing for arguings sake.

Your LandRaider is done if it is within 26" of one my battlewagons with MANZ. Even if you moved more than 6, nothing is going to save you from 34 Strength 9 attacks and 7 Strength 10 attacks. Let me repeat... Nothing.

Oh and have fun stunning my battlewagon when I have armor plates.

Have fun losing the super unit which makes up 1/3 of your entire army's points after you blow your load taking out a single Land Raider in close combat.

Even with all those attacks you're at about 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit. You get a glance and a pen from the S9, then a 50/50 shot at another effect from the S10. Not too scary really.

If they moved more than 6"... Still that is 6 S9 hits and 1 S10 hit... yeah not to scary!?

And if they Kill Ghaz and 9 MANZ after, then well they deserved it. Typically though, some those 18 toughness 4 2+save wounds and 4 toughness 5 2+ save wounds make it through. What you are forgetting is that this is turn 2, and you have just been hit with 3 other Battlewagons as well.

actually the 5-8 th/ss termiantors that fell out of the raider you just popped will do a good amount of damage to your meganobz. 3+ invul > no invul. Also any spare melta's floating around will toast a few of those nobz before the charge.

All of this arguing is pointless. Dice, mission, opponents, and the multitude of other factors will be what decide's who wins. Ard boyz is this week. Wait till saturday night and we will see how the orks fare.

skipdog172 wrote:I must say, playing a codex in many many games does a lot more for evaluating their effectiveness than playing against somebody's Ork list or simply reading their codex.

Of course.

Elessar wrote:Generally - I own over 10k of Orks. I've played 5th with them maybe a hundred times. Orks cannot, and I can't stress this enough CANNOT reliably beat a list with 2+ Land Raiders. One can be dodged, or fluked, but 2 or more, and you may as well throw in the towel-squig, and watch someone else's game, and not waste everyone's time. Anyone who recommends Tankbustas isn't half as good as they think they are - maybe if they didn't take up a Loota spot, maybe if they didn't cost more than 8 points each, maybe if they weren't the easiest thing in the world to counter because, oh look, most things have more range.

Orks can be good. But they aren't as good as Eldar, SM, CSM, DE, IG, WH...basically, as Stelek says on the issue. Killla Kans get killed by Melta on a 3+, and please find me a Melta weapon that doesn't get more than a glance on AV11 reliably.

Relying on a boarding plank to REACH nevermind damage a Rhino, let alone a LR is naive at best. When ramming a Battlewagn feels like the best bet, you should just give up and cry. Also, Warpheadz are bigger fail than all 3 Star Wars prequels without the final special effects put in yet. They redefine fail as a concept - and they're still 10x better than a regular Wierdboy.

Oh look, already covered that one, next?

I think KhornateDemon has the right idea - hopefully we'll have evidence you can only begrudgingly disregard in a few days...

So what changes need to be made?

Make tankbustas none-slowed (maybe change glory hogs to a leadership test if they WANT to shoot at non-tanks - let them still run if they want to), and tankhunters? Give them access to transportation (why the hell can't they take a trukk anyway)?

Make the Zzap gun non-gak - maybe something like D6+2 Strength, 2d6 pen? Bit worse than a Bright Lance.. Orkishly random.

I think it would be interesting to identify all the clearly gobshite units of the various codices (ie the units that even the most casual of player sees and goes "lol this is so bad") and apply some non-official updating - could be fun to run a Vassal tournament or some such using the modifications.

Oh and nice blog Elessar, might make it a regular stop =]

Thanks

I think that's a good idea actually, I'd gladly participate, although I have to many projects on the way to start the thread myself.

Kannons should be Ordnance though. Burnas in Transports, Battlewagons and Eavy Armour for any Troops Boyz...Artillery outside Force Org, with Wierdboyz also outside...Lotas in Looted Wagons dedicated (fluffy and fun)...KMBs get Melta and small blast...Tankhammers all round...Bomb Squigs in Grots...

Elessar wrote:Thanks

I think that's a good idea actually, I'd gladly participate, although I have to many projects on the way to start the thread myself.

Kannons should be Ordnance though. Burnas in Transports, Battlewagons and Eavy Armour for any Troops Boyz...Artillery outside Force Org, with Wierdboyz also outside...Lotas in Looted Wagons dedicated (fluffy and fun)...KMBs get Melta and small blast...Tankhammers all round...Bomb Squigs in Grots...

Stormboyz should be cheaper. Kommandos should be cheaper. Warbikers should be cheaper. Boyz weapon upgrades should be cheaper or even free. Flash Gitz should have higher str weapondry. Battlewagons should be cheaper and taken as dedicated vehicles for boyz or gitz as well as nobs. Rockitts should be useful (either cheaper to facilitate more of them or higher strength). They should do something about the lack of consolidate after assaulting a vehicle OR give orks more methods to crack them open before a charge.

Boyz should also be +1 STR getting STR5 on the charge, not STR4. And flashgits should be BS3, because they practice with their gunz!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And someone needs to teach orks what melta means.

@Kevinnash

Wishlist much? Stormboyz already dropped 3 points in the newest book. Bikes dropped 5pts. in the new book. Battlewagons became much more usable (i.e. you can take up to 8 in a list now). Orks are fine.

@Dash

If they had stayed 9 points then your suggestion would be valid about st4 but at 6pts that's insane.

Orks have probably one of the best written codexes out there. I wish Phil Kelly wrote every codex!

Tankbustas need Tankhunters back. Even increase their points a little if necessary, but then get rid of "Glory Hogs". It's a stupid rule, only put in there to shoehorn a unit that is now a poor tank killing into a unit that can do nothing but kill tanks.

Zzap guns should be melta.

KMB need something. Either blast or melta.

Weirdboys need something, even if it's just becoming a squad upgrade no longer worth a Kill Point.

Flash gits desperately need another shot from their Snazzguns. They and MANs both need access to bosspoles. Cybork body might be a nice one for the MANs too.

Ghazghkull should come with a Waaagh Banner (and cost 15 points more). A Big Mek on a warbike should allow bikes to be taken as troops.

Looted wagons and Battlewagons should have cheaper weapon options. Deffrollas should affect vehicles with FA13 or less.

There should be no restriction on Ard Boys, and Grots should be able to be taken outside of the force organization chart.

Rokkits should be 5 points for squads of boys.

I'd say it's a good codex overall though. One of the best, if you discount a rather large number of typos and rules errors that needed to get ironed out. There's better internal balance with the Orks than there is with most armies. Nearly everything is useful.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kevinnash

Wishlist much?

Well that was the point of my post.

Stormboyz already dropped 3 points in the newest book. Bikes dropped 5pts. in the new book.

Neither or them are particularly good or useful. Stormboyz are just as fragile as boyz yet cost twice as much. Bikes are far too easy to get running off the table, 3d6 inches. They either need to be more resilient or cost less.

Battlewagons became much more usable (i.e. you can take up to 8 in a list now).

You can technically take 8 but not realistically since they and the units that allow them to be taken as non-heavies cost far too much. It's extremely difficult even getting 3 into a decent list and that's with minimal upgrades.

Orks are fine.

They are pretty solid with some unfortunate weaknesses that some other armies are currently exploiting right now. They have some very nice units and several unplayable ones.

bah, if mech vulcans eat up all the raider armies, who care about them in the meta? While Orks can't kill Av14, it hardly matters when everyone else is melta/lance/rail spamming out of their ass.

Counter the metagame, not "random lists thrown into the mix"

Stormboyz are amazing. Yes they do cost twice as much as a normal boy but that price is reduced some when you consider your normally mounting said boyz in a transport. They are a guarenteed second turn charge, sometimes first turn. My stormboyz have never let me down but then again I field 2 units of 16 w/pk nobs supported by a large 12-man bike squad. The bike squads are amazing for the amount of shots and damage they can take. They also are big enough to get any vehicle a cover save except for battlewagons.

The only unplayable unit from day one has been flashgitz. I will give you that that unit is just a sad out of place panda in the book. Everything else has a place if used correctly.

The only thing being "exploited" is our lack of anti-AV14 but like the above poster said a lot of people are gearing up to take out LR's. Personally my GK's might start sitting the sidelines for a little while depending on my next few tournies because of all anti-LR guns out there. Every army shouldn't be able to do everything extremely well but that's what some people think Orks should be able to do.

DH armies are weaker than Orks.

Also, Wierdboyz are the worst unit, even Flash Gitz are better then the Possessed of the Ork Codex.

I don't think that Orks should be able to do EVERYTHING at the same time, but they should be able to do anything in particular if they focus on it.

They need some anti-tank. Some melta, some AP1.

Elessar wrote:DH armies are weaker than Orks.

Also, Wierdboyz are the worst unit, even Flash Gitz are better then the Possessed of the Ork Codex.

Of course DH are weaker than Orks. That was beside the point. I was merely showing how the metagame might make me put them on the back burner because of everyone gearing up for LR's. In fact my DH would probably eat most ork players due to the LR's and tons of shots

And I did forget the Wierdboyz which does bode ill for them. Ok, 2 useless units in the codex from day one. If they could choose their spell for the entire game or affected the force org somehow like the other two they might be taken. But still only 2 useless units that'll never see use in a codex. Now check all the other codexes out there and count how many units you never see then tell me Orks have a bad codex.

@Dash

That's the point though. They are bad at high AV anti-tank. And even then it's only against landraiders. everything else has rear armor which most Ork armies will get to and tear apart.

I think it's still the most solid overall codex out right now and still one of the top competitors in any event when run with a good player.

Actually, there's plenty of people that find Weirdboyz and Flashgitz to be useful. I think they're best in combination, with a Warphead accompanying a unit of Flashgitz. You have to think of them as uber-Shootas, despite also having the close combat abilities of Nobz.

You're right abut how Gitz should be used, but that doesn't make them good. It's possible to use Swooping Hawks well, doesn't make them playable.

Hulksmash wrote:Stormboyz are amazing. Yes they do cost twice as much as a normal boy but that price is reduced some when you consider your normally mounting said boyz in a transport.

The transport argument doesn't mean anything in the context of the comparison. Transports are a single cost item that can give the entire ork unit a free life where they must kill the transport instead of the actual unit. The comparison is also not meaningful when comparing it to a group of 30 footslogging boyz which are a bargain in comparison both because of a high mob rule leadership save as well as 50% off per boy.

They are a guarenteed second turn charge, sometimes first turn.

Which is an awful strategy for a group of 20 stormboyz when your opponent's army is completely mechanized like the majority of the metagame right now. You charge a rhino or chimera, blow it up, and then watch your 280 point unit get wiped out the following turn. Stormboyz can't even reliably dive into cover because of dangerous terrain tests.

My stormboyz have never let me down but then again I field 2 units of 16 w/pk nobs supported by a large 12-man bike squad.The bike squads are amazing for the amount of shots and damage they can take. They also are big enough to get any vehicle a cover save except for battlewagons.

The bike squads are probably running off the table after a single round of shooting since unlike nob bikers they don't have ablative wounds. Shooting bike big shootas at chimeras or rhinos doesn't do anything for you. You can argue that you can rely on fire support to assist in taking out vehicles prior to getting to charge lines but then you've run out of points, hence my argument that these units should cost less so they actually see play in a tournament quality list.

The biker / stormboyz is a cool list concept (bikers leading with 4+ cover and providing cover to stormboyz behind them) but that doesn't make it competitive.

The only thing being "exploited" is our lack of anti-AV14 but like the above poster said a lot of people are gearing up to take out LR's. Personally my GK's might start sitting the sidelines for a little while depending on my next few tournies because of all anti-LR guns out there. Every army shouldn't be able to do everything extremely well but that's what some people think Orks should be able to do.

We have more to worry about than just AV 14 LR spam I assure you. IG curb stomps 95% of ork lists right now quite easily with only AR 12. The few lists that can hang still have a poor 40/60 matchup.

Hulksmash wrote:Every army shouldn't be able to do everything extremely well but that's what some people think Orks should be able to do.

No. What people think Orks should be able to do is more than one thing. Look at it this way; does the thought of a shooty Ork army bother you particularly?

As a further addendum to what I said before, being able to deal with AV14 doesn't mean Orks are a "competetive" Codex. It's not just that they have problems dealing with AV14; they have problems dealing with anything that they can't tie down and assault, because that's all they do. Well done, you've tailored your army to beat down Land Raiders; round two, here's a Sisters list with a load of Melta/ template Rhinos and 12 Faith Points. And Seraphim, just for funsies.

Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

Emergency Disembark = what you just said doesn't work.

A topic for another thread, but Emergency Disembark is one of my biggest pet peeves about the game. "You must disembark in the following fashion... [blah blah doors blah blah].. but if you can't, then don't worry about it, just pretend we never told you the above rules and put your stuff on the table somewhere nearby".

I've seen a squad of Flash Gitz get way more kills than the squad of Lootas did in the same battle. Lootas were nicely placed in cover, with targets throughout the game. Flash Gitz were in a Looted Wagon (no upgrades apart from a Skorcha and Big Shoota), and were largely ignored (AT fire was concentrated on the Battlewagon full of Nobz). They took out light transports and heavy infantry without much trouble, before they even got in to close combat.

They aren't necessarily optimal units, especially given the competition there is for Heavy Support slots, but they can certainly work for casual play, as a different kind of Nobz mob.

If snazzguns came with S6, Assault 2 built in, I could see loading FG in a transport for some mobile firepower. Still dunno if that'd be as competitive as other HS options, but that loadout would let them pop Rhinos and Chimera side armor. But at their current price, no thank you.

Just got back into 5th so I didn't know about emergency disembark. I looked but didn't see this in the rulebook though.

EDIT: Nevermind just found it. Pretty sleazy but they still couldn't do anything the rest of the turn. Pretty huge because they would subsequently be shot then assaulted.

@Kevin

I build my list to work together. I don't unit by unit the performance of it. My list is synergized extremely well with a lot of fast moving units that support each other. You can't willy nilly state that things like stormboyz and bikes are useless as they aren't. Units need other units.
I haven't got curbed stomped by any guard armies yet but then again I've only gotten in 4 games against the new dex.

@Fugger

I have no problem with a shooty ork army and in fact love the idea. Most of my previous lists were built out of a ton of shots that I could re-roll. Orks make an amazing shooty army right now. they just don't have melta's or ap1 which does make it a little harder but doesn't make them a lower tier army.

Hulksmash wrote:@Kevin

I build my list to work together. I don't unit by unit the performance of it. My list is synergized extremely well with a lot of fast moving units that support each other. You can't willy nilly state that things like stormboyz and bikes are useless as they aren't. Units need other units.

Are you telling me your list is comprised entirely of warbikes, stormboyz and fast moving vehicles? Is there any fire support like kannons or lootas at all? If not it's a poor list for competitive tournament play.

I'm not declaring this willy nilly. I basing this on months of playtesting against competitive army lists. Stormboyz were problematic then when I first tried using them and they haven't improved. A 280 point 20 man boy unit that has difficulty getting cover saves in a list without adequate fire support is going to get crushed. If you are relying on bikes for your cover saves that's clever but unfortunately the bikes are probably running off the table in 1-2 turns because of a low model count. If your stormboyz run into a wall of vehicle spam in their assault phase feel free to pick them up off the table the following turn after they are templated and pied to death by the remaining vehicles that close in on them.

JGrand wrote:Just got back into 5th so I didn't know about emergency disembark. I looked but didn't see this in the rulebook though.

EDIT: Nevermind just found it. Pretty sleazy but they still couldn't do anything the rest of the turn. Pretty huge because they would subsequently be shot then assaulted.

how do you figure? We are talking about you killing a LR in CC. You pop it, guys pile out. If they have to emergency disembark they cant do anything on your turn. My turn rolls around and they are free to move and assault you. And I think most people will agree that th/ss termies are at least as good if not much better than nobz due to their slowed invul save. At the very least they will probably wipe the squad while dying.

Well, it says they cannot do anything that turn. I assume turn meant a full turn (aka yours and opponents). It seems like being shocked/stunned/stumbling out was the punishment for being surrounded and having to somehow make an exit. Hence they can't do anything and get charged and shot. I could be wrong though.

JGrand wrote:Well, it says they cannot do anything that turn. I assume turn meant a full turn (aka yours and opponents). It seems like being shocked/stunned/stumbling out was the punishment for being surrounded and having to somehow make an exit. Hence they can't do anything and get charged and shot. I could be wrong though.

Nope they are just pinned for the remainder of whatever turn they had to emergency disembark. I think the only point of that part of the rule is to prevent people from abusing it by using it to get out of the back of a land raider or something after tank shocking into a large mob or some other scenario of the sort.

Kevin Nash wrote:Shooting bike big shootas at chimeras or rhinos doesn't do anything for you.

Not so sure about that. Given enough hits you'll pop a Rhino or Chimera with a decent sized biker mob if you get to the side or rear and thanks to the 5th edition rules I can still assault the unit that just got dumped out...

Kevin Nash wrote:We have more to worry about than just AV 14 LR spam I assure you. IG curb stomps 95% of ork lists right now quite easily with only AR 12. The few lists that can hang still have a poor 40/60 matchup.

I've played my share of Mech IG and curb stomping is nowhere near my experiences. But then again, I don't run a Green Tide.

This year's Ard Boyz is very much going to be a Rock, Paper, Scissors affair it seems. I'm just looking forward to all those LR spam lists meeting up with those IG Melta spam lists. It's going to be a blood bath.

JGrand wrote:Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

No, all you have to do is charge, surround the exits, Destroy or Wreck the vehicle, then Bam - one squad down, more to go.

Easier said than done.

Frank Fugger wrote:

JGrand wrote:Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

No, all you have to do is charge, surround the exits, Destroy or Wreck the vehicle, then Bam - one squad down, more to go.

Easier said than done.

forget the exits, you have to surround the entire vehicle. And hope you dont blow it up on a 6, cause then I get to use the footprint of the tank as well to deploy into. They made killing passengers aboard a transport difficult these days so its not something I would rely on happening.


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Frank Fugger wrote:

JGrand wrote:Just a quick point when people talk about the ensuing Termies/Caligar/Super Point Sinkers coming out of the landraider when its blown up. If you can't disembark you are destroyed so the Landraider dying to a close combat squad will likely be the end of the massive unit inside as well. In a 1500 point game this can eaily be a 1/3 of an army. In 2000 it's at least a 1/4. All you have to do is charge and surround the exit points. Bam, instant win.

No, all you have to do is charge, surround the exits, Destroy or Wreck the vehicle, then Bam - one squad down, more to go.

Easier said than done.

your over simplifying it. If this is a LR and a terminator squad we are talking about and he does manage to surround the tank and blow them all up you are looking at 1/3 of most standard sized lists gone. Not something I would just say, oh well I have more guys, too.

Seer Councils on Jetbikes fear exactly 2 Ork Units - Lootas, and Burnas. Since only one gets used, no biggie - the other can be CC'd to death.

It's not just AV14 you know. I think that needs to be made more clear.

Elessar wrote:Seer Councils on Jetbikes fear exactly 2 Ork Units - Lootas, and Burnas. Since only one gets used, no biggie - the other can be CC'd to death.

It's not just AV14 you know. I think that needs to be made more clear.

True, but seer council/jetbike spam is a unit that many lists need to fear.

It's solid.

Of course, but Eldar have an answer, IG have several answers, WH have answers, even SM have answers, Chaos do...only Orks don't, out of the 'top' lists. Thus their mention.

Orks do have an answer to Land Raider spam, it's just that people won't take them. Something I like about 5th edition is that you can actually Glance vehicles to death via Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized damage effects. Tank Bustas, Zzap Guns, Shokk Attack Guns, and even Weirdboyz can, in sufficient numbers, inconvenience Land Raiders long enough to either produce a Destroyed (Wrecked) result, or kill them the old fashioned way.

Remember that Tankbustas not only have Tankhammers, which work on non-vehicles at I3 on the charge, but they all have Tankbusta Bombs for 2D6 penetration krak grenades. Combine that with Rokkits, and then two more units, and you have something shooty. Screen them with Grotz for a better cover save than a Kustom Force Field, and you can shut down a Land Raider assault, or even destroy it.

Zzap Gun-wise, they may not automatically hit any more, but their longer range and automatic Shaken on glancing and penetrating hits lets them shut down vehicle-based shooting, and Ammo Runts lets them capitalize on high-Strength shooting. And they're dirt cheap.

So here's the plan:

Mekboy with Shokk Attack Gun
Mekboy with Shokk Attack Gun

3x Tankbustas

3x Grots (30/3)

3x Boyz (30) with 3x Rokkits

3x Zzap Batteries (extra krew, Ammo Runts)

No, because that army can't beat ANYTHING else.

Also, each Zzap Battery (you roll once for each Battery, remember) has a 56% chance of negating it's own shot against a LR - and even at S10 only a 50-50 chance to damage. I don't know how to MathHammer out percentages including random 2d6 strength, but 1.5 hits, and at S10, that's .75 damage rolls. For 3 Zzaps. At 36". Awesome.

At S8 it's .25 glances. Awesomer.


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n0t_u wrote:Doesn't it have asterisks after the ones that lose their ability? He will keep his ability as it also includes the unit he is joined with in its wording.

That only applies to USRs.

Elessar wrote:No, because that army can't beat ANYTHING else.

Somehow I think the anti-tank portion of the Ork codex was written before the 5th edition rules were finalized. Tankbustas are useful at all times if you can control their line of sight, which thanks to 5th edition requires dedicating multiple vehicles of your own to blind them. Rokkits, Kannons, PK Nobs, these things can glance AV14 all day, but glancing now takes 10+ results to actually stop a vehicle with multiple weapons, rather than having a 1/6 chance to destroy it outright like last edition. Deff Rollas were custom made for ramming by RAI as far as I can see (because tank shocking does feth all with armor saves allowed), but the semantic debate on whether or not that's allowed in 5th is still going on now over a year later. In 5th edition, "the age of the Mech and Melta", the only melta bombs orks have are from Tankbustas, who have to borrow somebody else's trukk to even get to the fight, and the only ranged melta is a 1/6 chance from the gimped out Wierdboy. With the shift in the list styles that came with 5th edition, you need to be able to kill at least one land raider every other turn to be successful against a raider spam list. With the current toolset available, it's really hard for Orks to be able to do that without taking so many rokkits, koptas, wierdboyz, Zzap guns and assorted gak that you can't beat a balanced list. Not saying it can't be done, but it's a very fine line to walk.

Most of the time us greenskins are better off just accepting that any Land Raider sitting on an objective with a bare minimum scout squad in it is unreachable. But that's 300 or so points dedicated to a multimelta and possibly a pair of lascannons. Big deal. If it's a Crusader/Redeemer, it's a little harder to contest that objective, but now only shoots a MM until you actually come to it. Ignore it until the last turn(s), and then contest the objective if neccesary, call it a day. Until then, play the game as though that objective did not exist. You might not wipe them off the board, but anyone that knows GW knows that any time a SM army gets tabled, the opponent's army accrues a "incoming nerf stick" token and the current codex's author loses an appendage. Play the missions rather than worrying about the big steel boxes o' cheese, and you'll come out fine.

Nurglitch wrote:Orks do have an answer to Land Raider spam, it's just that people won't take them. Something I like about 5th edition is that you can actually Glance vehicles to death via Weapon Destroyed and Immobilized damage effects.

That's like saying you double your chances of winning the lottery by buying two tickets. Glancing vehicles to death typically requires 5 weapon destroyed/immobilized results, which further requires something like 15 rolls on the glance table.

Just ask the Necron players if glancing vehicles to death is actually viable.

Elessar:

It's true, you don't seem to know math-hammer, or at least the part where you calculate the odds of what I'm talking about and not something else. Recall that Zzap Guns can take Ammo Runts, meaning that each Gun in a battery can be Twin-Linked if you roll S8+. Moreover that any glancing or penetrating hits automatically result in a Shaken result besides any other result.

When will a Zzap Gun battery roll S8+? About 41% of the time, going by the bell curve of 2D6 additive. 16% of the time you'll be hitting with S10. With the re-roll, each Zzap Gun will have a likelihood of hitting at about 75%. And denying that Land Raider the ability to use its Assault Cannons, Flamestorm Cannons, and Hurricane Bolters is a good thing, because it allows your Tankbustas to close and deliver the killing blows with Tankbusta Bombs and Tankhammers.

Moreover, as you may have noticed, 5th edition is a highly mechanized environment, which means that Tankbustas, particularly Spam Tankbustas, don't need to have their line of sight controlled.

Malecus:

Something I'd like to point out is that a Land Raider can survive up to six Damage results (One Immobilized result, Five Weapon Destroyed Results if the Space Marine player coughs up for the Hunter-Killer Missile). So it can take a minimum of six glancing hits to Destroy (Wrecked) a Land Raider.

Elessar wrote:Thanks

I think that's a good idea actually, I'd gladly participate, although I have to many projects on the way to start the thread myself.

Kannons should be Ordnance though. Burnas in Transports, Battlewagons and Eavy Armour for any Troops Boyz...Artillery outside Force Org, with Wierdboyz also outside...Lotas in Looted Wagons dedicated (fluffy and fun)...KMBs get Melta and small blast...Tankhammers all round...Bomb Squigs in Grots...

Alright, finally got around to making a couple of threads about this:
1 - Patching the Orks:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/247477.page
2 - Patching 40k:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/247475.page

your over simplifying it. If this is a LR and a terminator squad we are talking about and he does manage to surround the tank and blow them all up you are looking at 1/3 of most standard sized lists gone.

I'M oversimplifying it? I think you're underestimating just how truly god-awful S9 is against Land Raiders. Ask any LC-spamming Guard player, he'll tell you.

In case there's any confusion, I think the idea of surrounding and destroying a Land Raider so the cargo dies too is, at best, iffy. It's also hardly a reliable thing to do unless you have lots of Battlewagons and infantry.

Not something I would just say, oh well I have more guys, too.

Considering the amount of models you'd need to commit to surrounding the Land Raider in order to prevent him making a normal disembark move, let alone preventing emergency disembarking moves, I think that'd probably account for at least 1/3 of your army too. Which means if he has templates or pie-plates you're in a wee bit of a pickle.

Besides which 1/3 of an army is still only 1/3 of an army. What do you do about the rest of it now the Land Raider is dead?


And, once again, listen to Elessar. It's not just the inability to deal with AV14 without tailoring a list that does for Orks. Sit there and come up with lists entirely designed to crush Land Raiders, and you'll usually wind up crushing Land Raiders. Well done you. Then round two comes and 60 Sisters in Rhinos roll you. Etcetera etcetera.

Frank Fugger wrote:It's not just the inability to deal with AV14 without tailoring a list that does for Orks. Sit there and come up with lists entirely designed to crush Land Raiders, and you'll usually wind up crushing Land Raiders. Well done you. Then round two comes and 60 Sisters in Rhinos roll you. Etcetera etcetera.

See... that argument can be used on any army though. Take your Land Raider spam and the IG Melta Brigade rolls you. Take the IG Melta Brigade and Dark Eldar Dark Lance/Mechdar roll you. Take Mechdar and my Kan Wall rolls you. There is a counter for most power lists to be found somewhere, in some army.

The tournament howler monkeys cried, and GW answered. It's the nature of 5th Edition now... Rock, Paper, Scissors just on a more grand scale.

Actually, I can see how an Ork list designed to mangle Land Raiders by volume of fire would mangle 60 Sisters in Rhinos much more easily.

See... that argument can be used on any army though. Take your Land Raider spam and the IG Melta Brigade rolls you.

Land Raider spam is one particular type of list that can be built from the Smurf Codex, and while it's not necessarily the best one it can still handle itself reasonably well. So, while you can level the accusation of one-dimensionality at one particular army list (Raider-spam) from the Codex, it can't be levelled at the rest of the book.

One-dimensionality and lack of variety is a thread that runs through the entire Ork codex. You can see it in this thread; with Orks, the answer to everything is close combat. Sure you can build a list that looks shooty on paper, but throw it at some Battlesuits or a proper Guard gunline and suddenly it ain't so shooty anymore. Space Wolves, Grey Knights and Deathwing armies will outshoot specifically-built Ork shooty lists, that's how bad they are.

CC is what Orks do best. It's also effectively all they do and that needs to be fixed, because as long as that remains the case Orks will remain simple, stale and predictable. Simplicity is good; the other two aren't qualities you look for in competetive army lists.

.... as an aside... I'm not even sure how fair it is to say that the Raider-spam list is one-dimensional; sure there's very little CC, but with so many heavy weapons and PotMS do you really need it? Tailored lists, Lance weapons and Fast Melta will ruin it's day for sure, but anything else, including Power-Tau, provided those Broadsides and Pirhanas bite it quickly enough, it can handle itself.

The tournament howler monkeys cried, and GW answered. It's the nature of 5th Edition now... Rock, Paper, Scissors just on a more grand scale.

It isn't, though; and Raider-spam is a good list to demonstrate this. Raider-spam will counter a lot of low-AV mech lists (Sisters, CSM, SM Mech, Chimeras), shooty lists (anything that can't put out at least 4 S10 shots per turn and doesn't have S8+ Ordnance, Power-Tau also find it hard to cope with the LR vs RH pen-roll duels that occur once the Pirhanas bite the dust) and CC lists (Nids, Space Wolves, Daemons), but relies on being able to deal out wicked damage whilst taking very little in return and is thus flummoxed by anything that can reduce the damage the big tanks can do to them while they get into Melta range (stuff like Stormies jumping from Valks, Melta-Smurfs in Pods or on Bikes), or which can damage AV14 whilst not worrying overmuch about the weapons the LRs are carrying (Demolisher Russes, masses of Oblits), or which is able to do both (Lance weapons on Fast Skimmers).

That's not a case of Rock, Paper, Scissors at all; and you'll find with any competetive Codex that Rock, Paper, Scissors can be overridden by proper list composition and a working knowledge of how the army you're using fits together and, equally importantly, how the other armies do. With a properly balanced, streamlined list from any of the "better" Codexes you should, after you've gotten the zen of it down, be able to walk into a game with anyone no matter what they're running and be reasonably assurred of success.

The very fact that you just can't make an Ork list that is reasonably balanced and streamlined means Orks are a Rock, Paper Scissors Codex. If you've brought the right units to the table you might roll whatever you're playing, but in round two a different question will be asked of your army list and nine times out of ten you'll find you don't have an answer for it because Orks do nothing beyond spray-and-pray and CC rushing.


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Nurglitch wrote:Actually, I can see how an Ork list designed to mangle Land Raiders by volume of fire would mangle 60 Sisters in Rhinos much more easily.

Explain how.

Uhh...correct me if I'm wrong but haven't Orks done quite well in tournaments since their current Codex came out? So how come they suddenly suck so much?

Btw, what is "Power-Tau"? Is it a Mech-Tau? Gunline Tau? Hybrid?

None of the above. It's Crisis Suits galore, Fusion Blaster Pirhanas, any combination of Railheads and Broadsides, Pathfinders for Markerlights, compulsory FW squad and some Kroot. It's difficult to play because you're getting hammered with S10 AP1 and Melta from the first turn onwards, most of it BS5, plus there's Crisis Suits with Missile Pods and Plasma galore and that stupid Assault Phase move they get ready to mongle your infantry once the transports eat it. Doesn't scale particularly well, but it doesn't really need to.

The Ork Codex has been out for ages now, the style of play is simple, one-dimensional and hasn't ever changed, and a lot of their crutch units are made failtastic by being expensive and easy to pound down with S8 weapons. Plus Nob Bikerz are one of the few armies still susceptible to being Lashed into trees nowadays.

40k is as much a rock-paper-scissors game as it ever was, if not more. While Orks can build a list to deal with Landraiders, that list might struggle against others. Orks can build a powerful list that will struggle against Land Raider spam. Yet, Land Raider spam will quickly drop to a Tau-railgun-spam list, Dark Eldar with lots of lances, etc. Match-up is a huge factor in tourney success.

Moreso for Orks and other one-dimensional Codexes because, as I've said, they just can't answer a lot of the questions asked of them because they are, primarily, a concept Codex; that is, they were built around the fluff rather than the game mechanics. That makes them fun to play, but it also makes them a one-dimensional CC horde that can be played in other ways, but probably shouldn't.

On the other side of the coin you've got Codexes like the Smurfs, IG, Eldar, Tau, and to an extent the Deldar. You can throw well-composed army lists from these Codexes in against most things and have a reasonable chance of success, purely because they either do several things at once or do one thing to such a potent extent that countering it is extremely difficult. They have the flexibility and firepower to meet you however you want to be met and still hand you your face.

You can't do the same thing with Orks simply because making a well-composed army list with them is hard; and by well-composed I mean one which contains units that can deal with both infantry and armour, at least to some extent. Railheads, Crisis Suits and, to a lesser extent, Broadsides can do it. Bike Squads, Dreads, Land Raiders, Terminators, Sternguard, and a million other units from the Smurf Codex can do it. The Eldar are slightly less able in this regard, but they make up for it by being able to hit hard on the move and being difficult to damage. What have the Orks got that can do anything but mongle forward and charge stuff?

Frank Fugger wrote:None of the above. It's Crisis Suits galore, Fusion Blaster Pirhanas, any combination of Railheads and Broadsides, Pathfinders for Markerlights, compulsory FW squad and some Kroot. It's difficult to play because you're getting hammered with S10 AP1 and Melta from the first turn onwards, most of it BS5, plus there's Crisis Suits with Missile Pods and Plasma galore and that stupid Assault Phase move they get ready to mongle your infantry once the transports eat it. Doesn't scale particularly well, but it doesn't really need to.

Uhh...no offense but isn't that pretty much your standard ho-hum Tau list? The problem with Tau is...against fast assaulty armies, you often don't get anything more than your first turn shooting, however destructive it may be, the enemy will inflict equivalent (or worse) damage in assault phase.

Nurglitch wrote:Elessar:

It's true, you don't seem to know math-hammer, or at least the part where you calculate the odds of what I'm talking about and not something else. Recall that Zzap Guns can take Ammo Runts, meaning that each Gun in a battery can be Twin-Linked if you roll S8+. Moreover that any glancing or penetrating hits automatically result in a Shaken result besides any other result.

When will a Zzap Gun battery roll S8+? About 41% of the time, going by the bell curve of 2D6 additive. 16% of the time you'll be hitting with S10. With the re-roll, each Zzap Gun will have a likelihood of hitting at about 75%. And denying that Land Raider the ability to use its Assault Cannons, Flamestorm Cannons, and Hurricane Bolters is a good thing, because it allows your Tankbustas to close and deliver the killing blows with Tankbusta Bombs and Tankhammers.

Moreover, as you may have noticed, 5th edition is a highly mechanized environment, which means that Tankbustas, particularly Spam Tankbustas, don't need to have their line of sight controlled.

To answer the last point first, perhaps you've never played MechDar. I use a highly successful 1750 list that eludes being in 24" like it was Nurgle's Rot, or Swine Flu as most call it. Shoot my Prism that's 48" away, please.

Now, Zzaps. Okay, let's give them the trimmings. Battery gets that 16% on it's only shot (because as soon as it become a threat it becomes nuked, since Artillery is rubbish.) The battery of 3 get 1 natural hit, 1 on re-roll. 2hits = 1 roll on dam chart. At AP2. So 1/3 chance to destroy, 1/3 chance (if a Crusader being shot) to double shake - so Shake. 1/6 to Immob. 1/6 to kill the AssCan or MM. So, 50% of the time, it rolls on towards you 12", and either you get shot by other stuff, or SCOUTS get out, and shoot you dead where the snivelling Grots cower. Then you flee, if any survive.

@Malecus: I agree re the unfinished look of the Dex. KMB says it all.

@Frank: Thanks, but I'm not sure they are.

@The Green Git: Precisely HOW does a Kan Wall roll MechDar, please? I'm genuinely confused why you say this...

Elessar wrote:

@The Green Git: Precisely HOW does a Kan Wall roll MechDar, please? I'm genuinely confused why you say this...

It doesn't. I've got 9 Kanz in my store locker, and I can confidently say that Mechdar simply buzz around ignoring them. If Lootas are crushing transports, that's another thing entirely, and Kanz are simply incidental to the list.

I've played a Kan Spam only once, admittedly, but I raped it.

Frank Fugger wrote:Moreso for Orks and other one-dimensional Codexes because, as I've said, they just can't answer a lot of the questions asked of them because they are, primarily, a concept Codex; that is, they were built around the fluff rather than the game mechanics. That makes them fun to play, but it also makes them a one-dimensional CC horde that can be played in other ways, but probably shouldn't.

On the other side of the coin you've got Codexes like the Smurfs, IG, Eldar, Tau, and to an extent the Deldar. You can throw well-composed army lists from these Codexes in against most things and have a reasonable chance of success, purely because they either do several things at once or do one thing to such a potent extent that countering it is extremely difficult. They have the flexibility and firepower to meet you however you want to be met and still hand you your face.

You can't do the same thing with Orks simply because making a well-composed army list with them is hard; and by well-composed I mean one which contains units that can deal with both infantry and armour, at least to some extent. Railheads, Crisis Suits and, to a lesser extent, Broadsides can do it. Bike Squads, Dreads, Land Raiders, Terminators, Sternguard, and a million other units from the Smurf Codex can do it. The Eldar are slightly less able in this regard, but they make up for it by being able to hit hard on the move and being difficult to damage. What have the Orks got that can do anything but mongle forward and charge stuff?

I have a lot of respect for Tau in the hands of the right player, but still... they are to vulnerable to fast lists. Vulcan Bikes own Tau, period.

On paper, assuming you manage to somehow handle the Suits then yeah, Biker armies are going to do for your Tau list. Helluva lot of Multi-Trackered Markerlit Missile Pods and Plasma Rifles to deal with though; the Railheads, Broadsides and Pirhanas ain't the only things that can hurt you.

On the other hand, a melta does pretty well aimed at a suit, too. Not saying that it would be a roll over for the Marines, but Vulcan would be a tough match for Tau.

Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Frank Fugger wrote:On paper, assuming you manage to somehow handle the Suits then yeah, Biker armies are going to do for your Tau list. Helluva lot of Multi-Trackered Markerlit Missile Pods and Plasma Rifles to deal with though; the Railheads, Broadsides and Pirhanas ain't the only things that can hurt you.

Suits really aren't that hard to kill. They die to almost anything on assault, and they can be shot pretty easily too. Sure, they're mobile...but most of their armament is short-ranged too.

The bad weapons are short-ranged. The good ones are all 24-36", which, when you add in Multi-Trackers and 6" of movement, works out at 30-42" with a 6" move after they've been fired.

If you're playing someone who doesn't know how to equip or use their Suits then Suits are easy to kill. Otherwise you're going to struggle to take them down whilst simultaneously being pounded with Railguns, Submunitions, Smart Missile Systems and Fast Skimmer Melta.

EDIT: If this is going to turn into a thread speculating over which Codex is better between Tau and Orks then let's just say it's Tau and stop it now. Otherwise let's make another thread where the in-depth discussion of how much better the Tau Empire Codex is won't derail a thread that is, after all, based on discussing how bad the Ork codex is.

Frank,
I am completely confused as to how you think that tau are better than Orks.

Lootas destroy all suits (even Broadsides), while BWs roll up filled with boys.

This leaves the pathfinders to either drop the KFF saves from BWs or the normal cover saves from Lootas...they can't drop it all at the same time. 2-3 squads of Lootas and 3 BWs filled with shoota boys (Nob w/PK) spells doom for most Tau lists.

Throw in Snikrot Kommandos and kiss the Tau goodbye...thanks to RPJ BWs and Snikrot, there will be little to no Tau shooting starting turn 3.

Also, against any armor but AV 14, Lootas still do great. Even AV 13 goes down to all those galnces, so there is no problem with armor there. The only prob that BW+Loota+Snikrot Orks have is AV 14. That is where Baording Planks come in and hope you get some good roles.

Honestly, AV 14 all around is the only real weakness for a good Ork lisk nowadays...and Tau don't have LRs or Monos

Frank Fugger wrote:Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Sorry, but unless played by a complete newb, Biker Vulkan will crush any Tau list. I have played it over and over with our resident Biker Vulkan, and the Tau just can't stop it.

It is the 1st turn turbo boost/inv. save that decides the contest.

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Sorry, but unless played by a complete newb, Biker Vulkan will crush any Tau list. I have played it over and over with our resident Biker Vulkan, and the Tau just can't stop it.

It is the 1st turn turbo boost/inv. save that decides the contest.

Oh yeah, thanks for pointing that out

The Orks I mentioned above are at 1750. At 2k you add in 2 squads of Koptas with Rokkits + 1 Buzzsaw per squadron and scout move turbo to get 3+ cover save before the game starts. Then the Koptas have the choice of anihilating tanks or tying up suits in CC turn one...even more bad news for the Tau

Frank Fugger wrote:The bad weapons are short-ranged. The good ones are all 24-36", which, when you add in Multi-Trackers and 6" of movement, works out at 30-42" with a 6" move after they've been fired.

If you're playing someone who doesn't know how to equip or use their Suits then Suits are easy to kill. Otherwise you're going to struggle to take them down whilst simultaneously being pounded with Railguns, Submunitions, Smart Missile Systems and Fast Skimmer Melta.

You mean, bad weapons like flamers or meltas?

Yes, if the game was being played on infinitely large pool table, most enemy units would never catch Missile pod armed suit...unfortunately, this is not the case. An assault-y Ork (or anything) army is on charge range - or at very least, small arms range - on Turn 2. There is really only so much shooting you can do in one turn.

Frank Fugger wrote:
EDIT: If this is going to turn into a thread speculating over which Codex is better between Tau and Orks then let's just say it's Tau and stop it now. Otherwise let's make another thread where the in-depth discussion of how much better the Tau Empire Codex is won't derail a thread that is, after all, based on discussing how bad the Ork codex is.

What, Tau codex better than Ork? HAHAHAHA. Have you visited Tau forums lately? Half the messages are about bemoaning how badly they need a new Codex. Btw, I play Tau. I like them - but are they particularly powerful? Hell no. I've played against Orks and they have no problems at killing my suits. Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

Backfire wrote:Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

No.

Just No.

Rear armor 10. Even if I need 6's to hit, I'm still getting a 2/3 chance to score at least one glance with each regular boy that gets to swing. Flechettes try to make it fair, but still don't do it.

The only thing that Orks can't handle with ease is a 14/14/14 vehicle. That's what half of this thread has thrown at us, "Orks can't kill my uber box of terminators because it's awesome! Spehhs Mr1nes! LOL!". So that makes us a tier 3 army, or "bottom of competitive" to quote Stelek. To address the original post that claimed Guard made Orks tier 3, well... I can't really address that because I still don't see it being possible. There's just not enough firepower to kill the orks before they reach you and tear you apart unless you're geared up to face a horde army. In which case the armored lists from other codices run them over. Show ya tomorrow at 'Ard Boyz.

Alerian wrote:Frank,
I am completely confused as to how you think that tau are better than Orks.

Because they have units that can deal with both infantry and armour at range and Orks don't. Because they don't rely on being able to mongle forward and charge to be effective, whereas Orks do. Because... yeah, because the Codex is better than the Ork one.

Lootas destroy all suits (even Broadsides), while BWs roll up filled with boys.

This leaves the pathfinders to either drop the KFF saves from BWs or the normal cover saves from Lootas...they can't drop it all at the same time. 2-3 squads of Lootas and 3 BWs filled with shoota boys (Nob w/PK) spells doom for most Tau lists.

Throw in Snikrot Kommandos and kiss the Tau goodbye...thanks to RPJ BWs and Snikrot, there will be little to no Tau shooting starting turn 3.

Also, against any armor but AV 14, Lootas still do great. Even AV 13 goes down to all those galnces, so there is no problem with armor there. The only prob that BW+Loota+Snikrot Orks have is AV 14. That is where Baording Planks come in and hope you get some good roles.

Honestly, AV 14 all around is the only real weakness for a good Ork lisk nowadays...and Tau don't have LRs or Monos

I love how the reply to every challenge laid at the feet of Orky awesomeness is a tailored list.

Do you see why that's silly? Do you not appreciate that having to tailor a list to beat each opponent makes the Orks an uncompetetive tournament army? Do you not realise that this is the message people are trying to convey to you? Nobody's saying "LAWL LUK U CANT BEATS MAH LAND REDER SO UR CODEX R lame". Nobody's saying that. What's being said, by more than just me, is that Orks suck in tourney play because there is no way to build a list from the Codex that can answer every question asked of it.

By replying to every post regarding tough opponents by coming up with yet another tailored list, you lot are simply proving that point.

methoderik wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:Tough match, sure; but you're not going to roll the Tau. Not like you would roll, say, Orks.

Sorry, but unless played by a complete newb, Biker Vulkan will crush any Tau list. I have played it over and over with our resident Biker Vulkan, and the Tau just can't stop it.

It is the 1st turn turbo boost/inv. save that decides the contest.

Your Tau might not be able to, but that doesn't indicate a problem with the Codex; it indicates a problem with the player. The Tau have a million and one ways to reduce Biker armies of any persuasion to a trickle within a turn of shooting. Power-Tau especially; sure there are cover saves involved that the Power-Tau can't ignore, but, as any Loota or Autocannon afficionado will tell you, lots of wounds-on 2+ shooting is just as good as a few low-AP shots per turn because MEQ armies, especially Biker ones, become a little less durable with each wound they take. Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

Seriously, the Tau are awesome.

Backfire wrote:

Frank Fugger wrote:The bad weapons are short-ranged. The good ones are all 24-36", which, when you add in Multi-Trackers and 6" of movement, works out at 30-42" with a 6" move after they've been fired.

If you're playing someone who doesn't know how to equip or use their Suits then Suits are easy to kill. Otherwise you're going to struggle to take them down whilst simultaneously being pounded with Railguns, Submunitions, Smart Missile Systems and Fast Skimmer Melta.

You mean, bad weapons like flamers or meltas?

Yes. Why put a unit as fragile as the Crisis Suit in a position where it's open to be charged no matter what it does? Particularly when your HS choices are carrying 72" S10 AP1 Railguns and your Melta can be mounted on Fast Skimmers. Makes no sense to me.

Inb4 "templates ignore cover saves so I need them". So do 30+ wounds-on 2+ shooting attacks per turn, which is what you get with 10 Multi-Tracker MPod/ PRifle Crisis Suits. You don't need templates with the Tau; another reason they're awesome.

Yes, if the game was being played on infinitely large pool table, most enemy units would never catch Missile pod armed suit...unfortunately, this is not the case. An assault-y Ork (or anything) army is on charge range - or at very least, small arms range - on Turn 2. There is really only so much shooting you can do in one turn.

The size of the table has nothing to do with the range of the Suits' weapons or how far they can move, so your logic is flawed. If your opponent is spamming Multi-Tracker MPod/ PRifle Suits and you're catching them in CC he's doing it wrong.

Face it; a properly composed Tau list will give anyone a hard time. A Grey Knights list will shoot-and-scoot most low-Sv armies into nothingness, and they have Stormbolters and no 6" Assault Phase move. The Tau have S7 Missiles, S6 Plasma, and Jet Packs.

Frank Fugger wrote:
EDIT: If this is going to turn into a thread speculating over which Codex is better between Tau and Orks then let's just say it's Tau and stop it now. Otherwise let's make another thread where the in-depth discussion of how much better the Tau Empire Codex is won't derail a thread that is, after all, based on discussing how bad the Ork codex is.

What, Tau codex better than Ork? HAHAHAHA. Have you visited Tau forums lately?

Yeah; their army lists are filled with useless throw-away crap like Fire Warriors (awful infantry by anyone's standards), Devilfish (oh dear), Flechette Dischargers (why? Kroot curtain is better at deterring CC) and Krootox. Krootox, for fsck's sake. Why?

Half the messages are about bemoaning how badly they need a new Codex.

The same could, and indeed can, be said of any forum whose Dex hasn't been updated for 5th Edition. Eldar players say it all the time; they blame their Codex because they can't win with two Avatars and Storm Guardians.

Btw, I play Tau. I like them - but are they particularly powerful? Hell no.

Depends on the build you use. Mech-Tau suck, because FWs and Devilfish suck. GUnlines suck for the same reason. Kroot-spam sucks because Kroot suck. Etcetera etcetera.

I've played against Orks and they have no problems at killing my suits. Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

Then you're Doing It Wrong; "it" being using your Suits. What load-out do they have and how many of them do you take?

Malecus wrote:

Backfire wrote:Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

No.

Just No.

Rear armor 10. Even if I need 6's to hit, I'm still getting a 2/3 chance to score at least one glance with each regular boy that gets to swing. Flechettes try to make it fair, but still don't do it.

What about the 20-30 Kroot sitting around them? They make it hard to CC a Railhead to death. Ohnoes your mighty Orks have defeated my 100pt Kroot swarm in CC and Swept them from the board; now it is time for you to eat Submunitions and Smart Missiles.

The only thing that Orks can't handle with ease is a 14/14/14 vehicle. That's what half of this thread has thrown at us,

And the only answer thrown back has been a tailored list that would suck against anything but AV14 spam. Well done Ork Codex; you truly are a winner!

"Orks can't kill my uber box of terminators because it's awesome! Spehhs Mr1nes! LOL!".

Who said it had Terminators in it? I normally take 3 5-man Scout Squads or something similarly cheap when I'm spamming Raiders; if I take Termies at all they're used as a meat shield to keep my precious BAWKSES from being CCed.

So that makes us a tier 3 army, or "bottom of competitive" to quote Stelek.

No, what makes Orks "bottom of competetive", to quote Stelek, or "gak", to be Frank, is that their only answer to specific threats is list-tweaking. You can't do that at tourneys. That's why Orks suck.

To address the original post that claimed Guard made Orks tier 3, well... I can't really address that because I still don't see it being possible. There's just not enough firepower to kill the orks before they reach you and tear you apart unless you're geared up to face a horde army. In which case the armored lists from other codices run them over. Show ya tomorrow at 'Ard Boyz.

I imagine Ork players across the land are saying the same thing. We'll see.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Your Tau might not be able to, but that doesn't indicate a problem with the Codex; it indicates a problem with the player. The Tau have a million and one ways to reduce Biker armies of any persuasion to a trickle within a turn of shooting. Power-Tau especially; sure there are cover saves involved that the Power-Tau can't ignore, but, as any Loota or Autocannon afficionado will tell you, lots of wounds-on 2+ shooting is just as good as a few low-AP shots per turn because MEQ armies, especially Biker ones, become a little less durable with each wound they take. Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

Sorry Frank, but on this one you are wrong. I have won and placed through 3rd in many tournaments with my Tau. I have played countless Vulcan Biker vs. "Power" Tau games and always to the same result. If your results differ, you are not playing the right Vulcan Biker list or opponent.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frank Fugger wrote:
No, what makes Orks "bottom of competetive", to quote Stelek, or "gak", to be Frank, is that their only answer to specific threats is list-tweaking. You can't do that at tourneys. That's why Orks suck.

You and Stelek do seem to share a lot of the same opinions and unfortunately, attitude. You have given a lot of blanket answers to many of the questions posed. Unfortunately statistics do not back up your opinion, Orks are PROVEN winners. Now that may change, but how much of that is the codex, and how much of that is the fact it is 2-3 codices old and no longer the "it list" that sets the meta game?

Here's what I keep hearing: "I can tailor my lists to beat Orks so they suck" and "Orks can't beat every army out there unless they tailor their lists so they suck".

Let's just be clear: EVERY list will have a counter. EVERY army can tailor to beat another army. EVERY army will have lists it struggles against.

So they all suck.

methoderik wrote:Sorry Frank, but on this one you are wrong. I have won and placed through 3rd in many tournaments with my Tau.

And yet you haven't figured out the secret to stopping Biker armies is torrenting wounds-on 2+ shooting and moving your Suits. Strange, that.

I have played countless Vulcan Biker vs. "Power" Tau

Srsly? And still lost?

games and always to the same result. If your results differ, you are not playing the right Vulcan Biker list or opponent.

So we're agreed that the error is in the wetware, yes?

You and Stelek do seem to share a lot of the same opinions

A lot of people share opinions with Stelek. A lot of people share opinions with a lot of other people. That's how opinions work; especially opinions on an immutable set of rules and regulations. People notice things within them, and sometimes their observations overlap. That's how schools of thought develop.

and unfortunately, attitude.

I dunno how to feel about that :-s

You have given a lot of blanket answers to many of the questions posed.

Explain.

Unfortunately statistics do not back up your opinion, Orks are PROVEN winners.

No; Orks are proven noob-hammers. Their simplicity allows them to roll people who are new to the game or who are running lists that aren't optimised, where a more refined Codex (like, for instance, the Tau Empire one) which relies on more than "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE" to produce results needs a higher investment of time and effort to learn. Orks are the 40K equivalent of Li Long from Soul Calibur; they're a button-masher army that will allow you to tonk 90% of shoddy opposition, but fail it against lists and players with a bit more nous.

Now that may change, but how much of that is the codex, and how much of that is the fact it is 2-3 codices old and no longer the "it list" that sets the meta game?

It's all the Codex, because metagame is garbage in the same way that tiers are garbage. I guarantee you there were 40K players who'd figured out the Nob Bikerz list within days of it becoming "the done thing", and I'm sure not one of them had to alter the lists they were running in order to tackle the crutch units. Maybe in the mire of poor players unwilling to invest the time and energy into learning the mechanics of 40K a metagame exists, but there are always going to be people who understand the game a little more deeply, who are able to ignore the conventions and do what they do with what they've got. If everyone could do that maybe going to games nights wouldn't be such a chore; although to be honest, the few ones I've been to in Liverpool were pretty cool. The lists were imaginative (one lad had a huge Sisters and Kroot footslogger army). Bad, but imaginative.

Also, I'm not Stelek. I might like to be because I've heard his wife is hot, but I'm not he and he's not me. Inb4 "only the true Stelek would deny his divinity".

Frank Fugger wrote:

Alerian wrote:Frank,
I am completely confused as to how you think that tau are better than Orks.

Because they have units that can deal with both infantry and armour at range and Orks don't. Because they don't rely on being able to mongle forward and charge to be effective, whereas Orks do. Because... yeah, because the Codex is better than the Ork one.

Lootas destroy all suits (even Broadsides), while BWs roll up filled with boys.

This leaves the pathfinders to either drop the KFF saves from BWs or the normal cover saves from Lootas...they can't drop it all at the same time. 2-3 squads of Lootas and 3 BWs filled with shoota boys (Nob w/PK) spells doom for most Tau lists.

Throw in Snikrot Kommandos and kiss the Tau goodbye...thanks to RPJ BWs and Snikrot, there will be little to no Tau shooting starting turn 3.

Also, against any armor but AV 14, Lootas still do great. Even AV 13 goes down to all those galnces, so there is no problem with armor there. The only prob that BW+Loota+Snikrot Orks have is AV 14. That is where Baording Planks come in and hope you get some good roles.

Honestly, AV 14 all around is the only real weakness for a good Ork lisk nowadays...and Tau don't have LRs or Monos

I love how the reply to every challenge laid at the feet of Orky awesomeness is a tailored list.

Do you see why that's silly? Do you not appreciate that having to tailor a list to beat each opponent makes the Orks an uncompetetive tournament army? Do you not realise that this is the message people are trying to convey to you? Nobody's saying "LAWL LUK U CANT BEATS MAH LAND REDER SO UR CODEX R lame". Nobody's saying that. What's being said, by more than just me, is that Orks suck in tourney play because there is no way to build a list from the Codex that can answer every question asked of it.

By replying to every post regarding tough opponents by coming up with yet another tailored list, you lot are simply proving that point.

Frank...how do you see the list that I posted as tailored?

That is not a "tailored list" that I mentioned. It is a good standard 1750 list.

20-30 Lootas make a mess out of ANYTHING that is not AV14.
3 BWs w/ Boarding Planks filled with Shoota boys and Nobs w/PK, protected by a KFF are a threat to every unit in the game.
Snikrot with Kommandos? Never leave home without him. He is just that good.
More boys on foot to protect/ screen the Lootas? Why not.

I don't care if it facing MEQ, GEQ, or Tau that is a strong list. If you weren't so stuck on "Tau > Orks! Raarrr!" you would see that.

Oh yeah, it is a fairly balanced list too...and it isn't even running a unit of Nobs.

Yes, it has trouble with AV 14 all around, but that is about it.

Malecus wrote:

Backfire wrote:Killing my tanks, yes, that can be hard for Orks, but not suits.

No.

Just No.

Rear armor 10. Even if I need 6's to hit, I'm still getting a 2/3 chance to score at least one glance with each regular boy that gets to swing. Flechettes try to make it fair, but still don't do it.

To clarify: it's more catching them than hitting them, that's the problem. Anyway, it's not such a big deal since he can just try to kill my infantry or suits.

Frank Fugger wrote:
No; Orks are proven noob-hammers. Their simplicity allows them to roll people who are new to the game or who are running lists that aren't optimised, where a more refined Codex (like, for instance, the Tau Empire one) which relies on more than "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE" to produce results needs a higher investment of time and effort to learn. Orks are the 40K equivalent of Li Long from Soul Calibur; they're a button-masher army that will allow you to tonk 90% of shoddy opposition, but fail it against lists and players with a bit more nous.

And again sorry you are wrong. Tournament Results for the past year or two have been posted, and I am fairly confident that if you took the time to look you would find that codex Orks are anything buy "tier 3". But argue away that they are not until you are blue in face if that is your prerogative, you seem content doing it.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Do you see why that's silly? Do you not appreciate that having to tailor a list to beat each opponent makes the Orks an uncompetetive tournament army? Do you not realise that this is the message people are trying to convey to you? Nobody's saying "LAWL LUK U CANT BEATS MAH LAND REDER SO UR CODEX R lame". Nobody's saying that. What's being said, by more than just me, is that Orks suck in tourney play because there is no way to build a list from the Codex that can answer every question asked of it.

By replying to every post regarding tough opponents by coming up with yet another tailored list, you lot are simply proving that point.

Uh...what "tailoring" Orks exactly need against Tau? What I fear if I'm playing Orks:

-Bikes
-Large shoota squads
-Deffkoptas
-KFF Battlewagons
-Lootas

Aren't those pretty much staple of most Ork builds? So where's the "tailoring"?

Frank Fugger wrote:
Your Tau might not be able to, but that doesn't indicate a problem with the Codex; it indicates a problem with the player. The Tau have a million and one ways to reduce Biker armies of any persuasion to a trickle within a turn of shooting.

Hmm, lets see. Unit of 3 Missile pod suits rains death on turboboosting Nob Bikers. We are kind and assume that all six shots hit:

-5 will wound
-2 will get through cover saves
-Painboy will save 1 wound.

So your suits, costing 160+ points or so, caused one (1) wound on the Nob Bikerz. Woo hoo. Or if it's regular Bikers (MEQ or otherwise), you killed two, which is bit better, but remaining can still assault you next turn and will probably cause much more damage than you did.

Frank Fugger wrote:
Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

What?

Frank Fugger wrote:
Yes. Why put a unit as fragile as the Crisis Suit in a position where it's open to be charged no matter what it does? Particularly when your HS choices are carrying 72" S10 AP1 Railguns and your Melta can be mounted on Fast Skimmers. Makes no sense to me.

Because even the Almighty Railgun really isn't guaranteed to stop a Battlewagon every time? Probability for Railhead to get destroy/immobilize result is somewhere in 25% range, half that if the Wagon gets cover save...

Frank Fugger wrote:
Inb4 "templates ignore cover saves so I need them". So do 30+ wounds-on 2+ shooting attacks per turn, which is what you get with 10 Multi-Tracker MPod/ PRifle Crisis Suits. You don't need templates with the Tau; another reason they're awesome.

So now the Suits are shooting up infantry? I thought they were going to shoot the Bikes? And of course there might also be 'Koptas, or Trukks, or Kans...

Alerian wrote:Frank...are you blind?

That is not a "tailored list" that I mentioned. It is a good standard 1750 list.

My bad, it looked so formulaic I assumed it had to have been set up to deal with Power-Tau. God love you for trying, though.

20-30 Lootas make a mess out of ANYTHING that is not AV14.

Yeah, BS2 is awesome. 5+ to hit is negated by firing 90 shots I suppose. If only there were a way to do that every turn, eh?

I'm going to save myself some time and do it like this; you are able to tackle precisely 3 units per turn outside of B2B. 6, if your Wagons make it into B2B with other vehicles. On a flat table with no terrain it'll be difficult to cut up their movement and it might well happen, assuming of course there's nothing screening the vehicles you're trying to B2B. Or your Battlewagons haven't been destroyed before they can do anything worth doing. It's shot full of holes.

I don't care if it facing MEQ, GEQ, or Tau that is a strong list.

It's not. 4 Land Raiders roll you. 3 Leman Russes roll you. 6 Leman Russes roll you easier, with room to spare for a load of Mechvets, HHs and Skimmers to tackle your Wagons before they can do anything worth doing.

Hell, I'd bring my shoddy pure Grey Knights list against this thing and probably laugh the Ork player out of the club. Seriously, it's a poor list.

It you weren't so stuck on "Tau is roxxors compared to Orks! raarrr!" you would see that.

I'm not stuck on that. My angle is "Orks are not a good tournament army". Judging by the slackness of this list I'm right.

Maybe if you weren't so stuck on using your noobhammer to roll Shrike lists you'd join the rest of us in the real world.

What's that? Oh yeah, it is a fairly balanced list too...and it isn't even running a unit of Nobs.

Yeah, because excluding a particular type of unit is how you balance a list.

Balance, in this sense, doesn't mean playing fair. Balance in the context of tournament lists means having a list that you can wield any number of different ways. The list you've posted here can be wielded precisely one way: "WOARGH MOVE CHARGE LOTS OF DICE". It sucks.

Yes, it has trouble with AV 14 all around, but that is about it.

If you think that's the only problem with this list I have a bridge you might like. 3 (non-AV14) targets from range, man. That's just silly.

How is this debate still going 8 pages later? Orks have done well in every GT since their new dex came out. They've done the best at several (Adepticon 08, for example). They haven't done badly once.

Everyone who thinks the Ork Codex isn't any good is a scrub. Let just one person who was in the top ten on the circuit last year come forward and say that they think the Ork's are third tier.

Backfire wrote:To clarify: it's more catching them than hitting them, that's the problem. Anyway, it's not such a big deal since he can just try to kill my infantry or suits.

"Try" being the operative word. At least if you're doing it right.

methoderik wrote:And again sorry you are wrong. Tournament Results for the past year or two have been posted, and I am fairly confident that if you took the time to look you would find that codex Orks are anything buy "tier 3". But argue away that they are not until you are blue in face if that is your prerogative, you seem content doing it.

I didn't say they were tier 3. I said they were noob hammers. I'd be more interested to see the lists those Ork armies went up against and some bat reps than I would to just blithely put stock in the results table. If they were consistently doing well against awesome lists played by awesome players I'd go out right now and buy an Ork Battleforce. As it stands the only Ork tourney batrep I've seen involved an Ork player who'd steamrolled most of his other opposition being tonked by a man with a pure Grey Knights list. Hardly screams "uber-competetive" to me.

Backfire wrote:Uh...what "tailoring"

See above.

Orks exactly need against Tau? What I fear if I'm playing Orks:

-Bikes

Seriously? Warbikerz? Or do you mean Nob Bikerz, because you know you can just Melta/ Railgun right through them.

-Large shoota squads

If you're having problems with Shoota Boyz you're doing something wrong. I'd postulate "running lots of Troops choices" is that thing.

-Deffkoptas

Why exactly?

-KFF Battlewagons

Needs moar Railgun.

-Lootas

Lootas I'll give you against Tau. They're a 3-squad maximum though.

Hmm, lets see. Unit of 3 Missile pod suits rains death on turboboosting Nob Bikers. We are kind and assume that all six shots hit:

Markelights and BS4, why wouldn't they?

-5 will wound
-2 will get through cover saves
-Painboy will save 1 wound.

So your suits, costing 160+ points or so, caused one (1) wound on the Nob Bikerz.

Why are you only firing the Missile Pods?

Woo hoo. Or if it's regular Bikers (MEQ or otherwise), you killed two, which is bit better,

BkCSes get FnP too.

but remaining can still assault you next turn and will probably cause much more damage than you did.

Not if you're Doin' It Right!

quote=Frank Fugger
Power-Tau don't. Killed a unit of Suits? That's bad, but hey, here's 7-10 more I can use to eat your face. Ohnoes a Railhead is down! Good job I brought two so the Submunitions can keep a-firin'! Plus, once you get within 24", the Markerlights stop adding +1 to BS and start being used to rain Smart Missiles down on your head; sure they're only wound on 3, but with 4 shots per Light it all adds up.

What?

What I said.

Because even the Almighty Railgun really isn't guaranteed to stop a Battlewagon every time?

Which is why God gave us Melta-Pirhanas. And 5 Railguns.

Probability for Railhead to get destroy/immobilize result is somewhere in 25% range, half that if the Wagon gets cover save...

Ohnoes I lost a Railgun. Good job I have more than one, rly.

So now the Suits are shooting up infantry?

No no, they're shooting whatever I deem needs shooting. In the case of Bikes or Boyz, it'd likely be Bikes.

And of course there might also be 'Koptas,

Ohnoes.

or Trukks,

Ohnoes * more.

or Kans...

Yeah, those are scary. Not, honestly. They are.

What?

40kenthusiast wrote:How is this debate still going 8 pages later?

Because this is dakka, where we could have a 10 page debate about what color the sky above Yak's house currently is.

Frank Fugger wrote:
I didn't say they were tier 3. I said they were noob hammers. I'd be more interested to see the lists those Ork armies went up against and some bat reps than I would to just blithely put stock in the results table. If they were consistently doing well against awesome lists played by awesome players I'd go out right now and buy an Ork Battleforce. As it stands the only Ork tourney batrep I've seen involved an Ork player who'd steamrolled most of his other opposition being tonked by a man with a pure Grey Knights list. Hardly screams "uber-competetive" to me.

If you would go back through the past year or two's results you would find that to be true.

And really, is there a reason you have to be such a dick? Arrogant posting and calling everybody noobs or insinuating that they are inferior players has been done to death here on Dakka already. Got to love those Keyboard Commandos...

methoderik wrote:And really, is there a reason you have to be such a dick? Arrogant posting and calling everybody noobs or insinuating that they are inferior players has been done to death here on Dakka already.

OT, but hey. That's a bit unfair to me, I feel. Excepting the first few posts in this thread I don't feel I've been a dick at all; I'm stating my opinion. I'm doing it in a forthright way, but I'm not swearing or being abusive towards anyone.

I think what's actually happening is you're taking what I'm saying personally. Wether that's because you have some emotional attachment to the Ork codex and it's illusion of competetiveness, or wether you just don't like being argued with, I don't know. Either way, taking frivolous internets discussions to heart is not a good thing, especially considering I'm never going to agree with you without being given a compelling reason to do so.

Got to love those Keyboard Commandos...

Ohnoes I've been called out on the internets.