Though me and my friends see no problem with this I thought I'd ask with you guys.
Before you all make assumptions, as I've heard of Nazi themed armies here being taken off or something to that affect, I have to say this is not Nazi themed 'exactly'.
The Orks are in black all with a red armband round the left upper arm. The pants braces are red, some arm bands and gloves are white. This is slightly enough of a reference to the Nazi uniform for people, after seeing them afew times, to realise.
That part pretty much everyone can agree is ok, it's just a paint scheme. The red arm band makes it slighty more obvious.
Now the idea was to have a red flag, with a white circle in the middle and four axes. The reference of this flag is clear but has a playful tone rather than serious/idolized. I've seen an Ork army at a games day have a communist flag in an orky style which everyone accepted.
Now do you think this is acceptable and that others will accept it as a joke against the Nazis, rather than glorifying them? In the same way Mel Brooks and other comedians do jokes on hitler and even have people dressed up as nazis, the recent one that springs to mind is Inglorious B******'s.
And then would it be too far to have an ork boss with a hitler moustache as a joke.
All of this seems ok to me but i dont know if it'd be ok to have this flamboyant hitler doing a heil salute aswell, that might be abit too far.
I'd like your thoughts and try to keep in mind it will be a joke theme, not a glorified one.
To be honest (in my own opinion) i would find it funny.
If anything you are mocking the nazi's, not making your own revolution army.
On guard i can see this being offensive.
but with orks, you can drag a certain playful humor from it and really take the piss out of nazi's.
But as ive said, peoples opinions can and will differ greatly.
I'd be fine with it on any army, to any extent of detail. But, then again, I think people look for excuses to get offended. Irreverence for anything and everything is key to remaining sane in today's environment of overly PC attitudes.
See, I'm making a Blood Axe army, which incorporates a lot of 'imperial' looking orks (see also german ww2 stylisation). But there's a difference between that and actual mimicry of the swastika or actual mimicry of Hitler... does the fact it's ork and therefore 'humorous' alleviate potential insult.
I saw a necromunda scene painted up once with redemptionists painted white with white hoods, lynching a darkskinned ratskin renegade to a tree surrounded by burning crosses topped with imperial eagles. I found it distasteful.
I'd suggest against it, I think that perhaps it can be seen as ridiculing a regime who murdered millions of people but there is also the risk it will be seen as ridiculing those very same people who were murdered. Err on the side of caution and steer clear of the symbols and the hitler-warboss.
MGS actually has a point here i guess, as i stated, not everyone will have the same opinion.
What may look like a piss take towards nazi's in 1 persons eyes may look highly offensive to another.
The symbol is OTT as MGS said, but if your keeping it, then turn it a few degrees so its not the same shape (as the swas was simply an origional icon, but turned at an angle)
I was going to make a unit of nazi orks about a year ago but decided it wasnt quite right... possibly funny? yeah i suppose so but not worth the risk... Im sure theres plenty of people who will not like the idea...
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I saw a necromunda scene painted up once with redemptionists painted white with white hoods, lynching a darkskinned ratskin renegade to a tree surrounded by burning crosses topped with imperial eagles. I found it distasteful.
I'd find that distasteful too. People will ask 'well then, why don't you find mockery of the Nazis distasteful'. I suggest to you that there's things you can make fun of, and those you can't within every subject like this.
Take for instance Little Nicky were Hitler has Pineapples shoved up his arse every day. Or Mel Brooks many Hitler comedies. In these he is either camp or simply ridiculed for being Hitler. They don't have him burning/killing Jews and make a joke of that, they simply make a joke of him and his regime at face value, not for their ideals.
This is what the ork army would be doing, looking like them aesthetically but making it more camp and ludicrous and thus insulting him in the same way Mel Brooks does, rather than the Necromunda army that shows actual imagery and doesn't make an effort to make them look comical.
The KKK could be insulted if say you have an army of white cloaked and hooded guys but they allhad pink hearts as their symbol.
I intend to 'camp up' my Orks in this similar fashion. (Pink Triangles/Rainbows anyone? =P)
Me personally I say it's entertaining and wouldn't be offended in the least. I don't think any of my jewish friends would find it offensive either. But like was stated earlier some people will go out of their way to be offended about anything. It's where our culture currently is unfortunately. Instead of staying open minded something people jump to conclusions.
For a long time I toyed with the idea of an anti-pc guard army but decided in the end it wouldn't be worth it since I live in SoCal and the odds that I would be asked never to show up with it again would be high in some of the game stores.
That being said that Necromunda gang is OTT. I would probably assume the guy was making a play on the imagery of the imperium but i would suggest to him that is probably not appropriate and remind him that people might not share his particular sense of humor.
I honestly wouldn't care. The German army had spiffy uniform's the Krieg guy's are so based off of German uniform's it's not even funny. And honestly if I saw a little guardsmen marching around doing the Nazi salute I would die loling.
I asked because people are overly PC. It's usually people not involved in the pain who get offended. Hence Jewish people like Mel Brooks insulting Hitler so easily, or Black People playing up to stereotypes ironically. But usually if another race/group does it overly PC people see it as offensive.
I asked mostly though because GW is overly PC, I suppose it has to be as it's a company.
To avoid any misgivings with GW I'm not going to have anything even infering Insignia and I'm gonna have Hearts and Rainbows everywhere, I'm still considering a Mek with a hitler tache with maybe purple clothes or something else suitably camp.
Shadowbrand wrote:I honestly wouldn't care. The German army had spiffy uniform's the Krieg guy's are so based off of German uniform's it's not even funny. And honestly if I saw a little guardsmen marching around doing the Nazi salute I would die loling.
I don't think it's a problem as long as you're careful to land the right side of humourous so that nobody could mistake you for a white supremacist or something.
I'd punch whoever had that KKK army in the face. I really can't stand racism, it's just one of my pet peeves. That scene described is OTT, but your army doesn't sound bad, Taran. If you had a line of, say, guardsmen, in a line with an ork covering them with a gun, then I personally would get a little pissed (but not for fluff reasons that orks take no prisoners). I realize I may be overly touchy in some eyes, but there's a line between making fun of someone/thing and disrespecting their victims. I personally wouldn't bother starting an army like that, it just seems like a whole other can of worms, but that's just me. Your plan to make a parody of them sounds good enough though.
If you can handle the inevitable PC brigade, go ahead. Although as a rule real life and GW make poor bedfellows, so maybe going balls-to-the-wall Wermacht with swastikas is unnecessary, if only in terms of fluff retention.
Just a quick point here, but 40k is a place full of torture, genocide (on extreme levels) and other somewhat grueling actions.
I dont really see it as PC atall If people are easily offended (by this i mean the OTTPC freaks) then i think they should stick with GI joe toys.
Edit: i know there is a limit which can be reached at times, but alot of the time people do it for the attention they gain.
People don't see Communism as bad as the Nazis, even though Deaths under Communist governments dwarf Nazi deaths. Especially being English the Nazi penetrated our culture much more as a force of evil and people are obsessed with them as they are fascinating and so have stayed in the conscience of people as ultimate evil. Saruman and the Urukai, Davros and the Daleks, Imperial Guard etc are all Nazis done in a serious way. Jokes against Nazis are also massively prevalent. Without iconography I dont think GW will be offended.
It’s all in how it’s presented if you ask me. If done as you say I would not have an issue with it. If there are conversions that bring it in line with historic brutality and hate then that’s an issue. Also I would stay away from historic icons and ensigna and like you mention use your own four axe symbol.
Orkeosaurus wrote:(Also, for some reason people who don't have a problem with the Soviet Hammer and Sickle will still have a problem with the Swastika.)
Methinks it's just how people have been raised. Most people are taught in school or learn from their parents to abhor the horrors the Nazi regime committed, while many people aren't as educated in the gritty, grisly facts of Communist Russia. Yes, Stalin is up there with Hitler and Landa on the Straight to Hell list, but I think it comes down to what people learn about in school and home.
I think people are ok with the Imperial Guard being genocists of 10s of Billions of people because it's fantasy/escapist. The second real world iconography comes in people will be offended, even if you're showing how vile these people are and not making them cool, if its serious pretty much no one will accept it. But comedy tends to be the release of the people, and taking the piss out of Nazis should work, especially when OTT (hearts, rainbows, signs with 'free hugs' etc).
This topic also makes me think, what about if someone decided to make an army themed on Jewish rebel fighters during WWII. Would people see that as ok? (not doing it btw, just wanna see what you think.)
Tarondor wrote:This topic also makes me think, what about if someone decided to make an army themed on Jewish rebel fighters during WWII. Would people see that as ok? (not doing it btw, just wanna see what you think.)
I don't see what the problem is with that. That's actually historically accurate I believe, there were no doubt Jews who joined the Resistance to fight those who imprisoned and killed their fellows. Give them sten guns and civilian outfits and you've got a creative, unique army.
OT: Why do people say things are "Jewish" or call people "Jews" as an offensive term, whether they are or not? For the life of me I don't know why.
Rico wrote:Most people are taught in school or learn from their parents to abhor the horrors the Nazi regime committed, while many people aren't as educated in the gritty, grisly facts of Communist Russia. Yes, Stalin is up there with Hitler and Landa on the Straight to Hell list, but I think it comes down to what people learn about in school and home.
Rico.
Huh? Rico you're American according to your flag, so you should know this is a bunch of BS. Or did all that anti-communism stuff in the 50's to late 80's NOT happen? Y'know, like McCarthy and his Lists while the American Nazi Party and Neo-Nazism flourished under protection from the VERY SAME CONGRESS McCarthy served on.
Hell, there are still people that feel that Communists(Frazzled and my Father -In-Law) are the greatest evil ever because that's how they were raised(Frazzled apparently refuses to buy anything made in Communist countries).
I think people would be offended by a Jewish Resistance 40k army, just because it's a touchy subject. Though I stick by thinking pretty much 100% of those offended would be non-Jewish, teenage, too left for their own good white kids who think being PC makes them a better person...
@Ricos OT: In the same way people from Pakistan or who look Pakistan are called Pakis, which has become an offensive word.
Jews or people of Jewish Heritage are called Jews offensively.
Black people are called N word (It's just a basterdisation of the word 'Black')
People use it in a new context, making it offensive even though it's fact.
Rico wrote:Most people are taught in school or learn from their parents to abhor the horrors the Nazi regime committed, while many people aren't as educated in the gritty, grisly facts of Communist Russia. Yes, Stalin is up there with Hitler and Landa on the Straight to Hell list, but I think it comes down to what people learn about in school and home.
Rico.
Huh? Rico you're American according to your flag, so you should know this is a bunch of BS. Or did all that anti-communism stuff in the 50's to late 80's NOT happen? Y'know, like McCarthy and his Lists while the American Nazi Party and Neo-Nazism flourished under protection from the VERY SAME CONGRESS McCarthy served on.
Hell, there are still people that feel that Communists(Frazzled and my Father -In-Law) are the greatest evil ever because that's how they were raised(Frazzled apparently refuses to buy anything made in Communist countries).
In my defense, I'm fifteen I admit I am not as educated about the Cold War era, especially its effects in the US. My mistake : )
Going off topic slightly here, but i just wanted to ask something thats allways wound me up
Now, im by no means a racist person (i would lose my job if i was)
but now we find all these rappers refering to each other by the N word (much like i call someone a mate or a bud) yet thats fine.
Someone of another colour says it and its instant racism.
Ive just wondered that if it was so offensive, why do they use it as a friendly name to eachother?
JD21290 wrote:May i remind people that you can no longer refer to someone as black the PC term is coloured.
Funny actually, some people say You should call them Coloured, not Black.
Others say Coloured is patronising and therefore Racist. So you should call them Black.
Words are both powerful and powerless, the fact I couldn't write the N word even though I used it in an example of how it's used badly proves Context doesnt matter anymore, its the word itself (which I believe is wrong).
Back on topic though, I'm defo converting my orks to Nazis with Hearts and Rainbows everywhere, and I'm gonna make a Hitler ork and I'll think of something to make him reeeeeaallly camp
Any ideas?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JD21290 wrote:Going off topic slightly here, but i just wanted to ask something thats allways wound me up
Now, im by no means a racist person (i would lose my job if i was)
but now we find all these rappers refering to each other by the N word (much like i call someone a mate or a bud) yet thats fine.
Someone of another colour says it and its instant racism.
Ive just wondered that if it was so offensive, why do they use it as a friendly name to eachother?
It's supposed to be the same as if I say, Hey JD21290, your Mum/Sister's a slut when im angry at you, and you'll be really offended. But when I'm angry at my Mother I could call her a whore but thats fine to me, 'cause its my mum, not yours.
Back on topic though, I'm defo converting my orks to Nazis with Hearts and Rainbows everywhere, and I'm gonna make a Hitler ork and I'll think of something to make him reeeeeaallly camp
Any ideas?
Make him this camp and no-one will have a problem..
Except the romper stoma fans... If they see what you've done you'll have to run.
Tarondor: While i refer to it as the N word and still dont really understand the way its fully used, i do not use it for obvious reasons.
i wish people make thier mind up, as constant change will result in a once bread PC community will become non PC due to word changes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's supposed to be the same as if I say, Hey JD21290, your Mum/Sister's a slut when im angry at you, and you'll be really offended. But when I'm angry at my Mother I could call her a whore but thats fine to me, 'cause its my mum, not yours.
thats highly amusing, since for 1: i dont have a sister, and for 2: my mother died when i was 8, so maybe a new example?
also, what morals you must have to be calling your own mother a whore.
Just do the Nazi-Orks. I want to see a looted Panzer.
If you really want to feel "safer" about it, put some comedic pieces in it, especially with Grots and such saluting incorrectly, or mooning the Fuhrer-Boss.
Platuan4th wrote:Huh? Rico you're American according to your flag, so you should know this is a bunch of BS. Or did all that anti-communism stuff in the 50's to late 80's NOT happen? Y'know, like McCarthy and his Lists while the American Nazi Party and Neo-Nazism flourished under protection from the VERY SAME CONGRESS McCarthy served on.
Hell, there are still people that feel that Communists(Frazzled and my Father -In-Law) are the greatest evil ever because that's how they were raised(Frazzled apparently refuses to buy anything made in Communist countries).
Actually, I agree with what Rico said. At most, my High School History classes covered what happened in the Soviet Union once for every ten times Nazi Germany was was covered. We had days in which the Holocaust was discussed, down to the specific details of the execution, and in which we watched exerts from Schindler's List. We never even came close to that kind of coverage regarding Stalin's purges, and there was no mention whatsoever of the engineered famines.
Talking about Communism, in my experiences at least, conjures up images of poverty, while Nazism conjures up images of wholesale slaughter. My guess would be that since Communists in America were frequently opposed to Stalin's authoritarianism, more emphasis was placed on its failings an economic system by those opposed to it.
There's also a huge difference in the visibility. The Nazis recorded the Holocaust, and with Germany falling under allied control, there was very little that could be hidden should the motivation have been there. In contrast, the Cold War was filled with secrecy. Stalin wanted people dead for his maintenance of power, not for ideological reasons.
Flagg07 wrote:If you've got to ask, you probably already know the answer...
Herein lies the heart of the discussion. You know exactly how this will be received, or you wouldn't ask for validation. It's ridiculous and has no place other than to garner you a little bit of attention. I am neither PC, nor am I Jewish. Make all the comparisons you want with how terrible Stalin was compared to Hitler, but making Hitler minis and an army of red armband-wearing figs in a Fantasy/Sci-Fi setting is inappropriate and speaks a bit of your maturity. Leave politics and ideologies off the gaming table.
If you or anyone else truly believes that it isn't offensive, put it to a very simple test: take your minis to temple on Friday and see how people react. Let us all know how that goes.
I think that you stand a great chance of pissin people off. I wouldn't mind so much, but I think a lot of people would. As to the right, wrong, indifferent of it all; I don't really know nor do I care a lot. But that's my opinion.
It's not to garner me attention, I've only ever posted like 15 messages or something and my other 2 threads are my army list.
People could easily say Nazi and Hitler imagery has no place in Comedy as a whole. Which misses the point. Comedy helps relieve a society and everyone likes taking the piss out of Hitler, thats why there's no problem.
Infact I think I show more maturity being able to look at Nazis and not just be automatically 100% offended and be able to take the piss out of them. It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant.
If I was Jewish I'd love people taking the piss out of Hitler, Why wouldn't I? Sure it's a sensitive issue but you're being comedic [bold]against[/bold] him.
Also, I've had several close friends die of Cancer, and if someone makes a cancer joke I can still see the humour in it. I think this is much more mature than just simply being offended all the time.
Taking miniature figures into a temple would probably get a bad reaction regardless. And I'd like to think the more progressive Jewish people would not be going to temple but thats another issue altogether!
If you made the Warboss like Colonel Klink from Hogan's Heroes, I would find that endlessly entertaining. The more bumbling you make them, the less likely people will find them offensive.
Well the Orks were originally a cross between English Soccer Hooligans and WWII-era German troops. Some of the models had the helmets German soldiers wore at the time (and in some ways still do).
I don't mind a WWII themed Ork army, but it is quite possible to do a WWII German-themed Ork army with out resorting to Nazi or even Axis symbols. I plan to do a heavily Blood Axe-based Ork army, using all the Great Coat Ork bodies that one of these alternate resin bit-making sites makes (Maximini? It's one of them anyway). They will have grey uniforms and those style helmets, but they won't be 'Nazi-Orks' or anything like that. No crosses or otherwise obviously overt Axis symbols.
LeeHarvey (a poster, not the real man) has an army of Nazi themed Space Marines, including a Chapter Master with the "Aryan Axe". IIRC the chapter is named "the Master Race". I know he got thrown out of stores for it. Course, he didn't do a parody, he just painted them like the SS and emblazoned everything with big ol' swastikas.
In fairness, he says he was trying to show the similarities between the Imperium and the Nazis, but I find it hard to believe that he didn't realize their would be problems with public display.
Well I would have thrown him out of my (hypothetical imaginary) store as well, but not for having an army with swastikas on it, more for being so unoriginal and unimaginative (and, I imagine, for making his army without any sense of irony).
As I said, it's quite possible to do a WWII German-themed army without resorting using Nazi symbols.
Though I wonder what would happen if someone made a Tau army based off of WWII-era Japan?
The Nazi group, or National Socialist German Organization, is a political organization, which technically had absolutely nothing to do with any racism of any kind. Even if it did, it's your free will to display your troops however you want. America was based on the freedom to express what you want, how you want it. I would just say to keep it tasteful.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Though I wonder what would happen if someone made a Tau army based off of WWII-era Japan?
Most of us americans wouldn't get it?
I posit: Ork nazis are funny. Its satire.
No one has a problem with my Afrika Korps themed IG. I'm really lazy regarding the tanks sadly. An Aguila and palm trees logo is pretty darned obvious though.
It's not to garner me attention, I've only ever posted like 15 messages or something and my other 2 threads are my army list.
So, you say it's not to garner attention, but 10-20% of all of your posts on Dakka are regarding making a Nazi-themed army. Your argument would make more sense if you had 1000 posts with half a dozen about Nazi figs, but I digress.
People could easily say Nazi and Hitler imagery has no place in Comedy as a whole. Which misses the point. Comedy helps relieve a society and everyone likes taking the piss out of Hitler, thats why there's no problem.
The "comedy" you speak of will be next to nil in your army and will be seen by a handful of people. Making a mockery of the Nazis or joking about their incompetency (per Hogan's Heroes) is one thing. I have a feeling your wit will be poorly executed and difficult to actually find.
Infact I think I show more maturity being able to look at Nazis and not just be automatically 100% offended and be able to take the piss out of them. It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant.
You asked for my opinion about what I thought of your idea. I find it unimaginative and poorly concieved. Who's crying?
If I was Jewish I'd love people taking the piss out of Hitler, Why wouldn't I? Sure it's a sensitive issue but you're being comedic [bold]against[/bold] him.
Also, I've had several close friends die of Cancer, and if someone makes a cancer joke I can still see the humour in it. I think this is much more mature than just simply being offended all the time.
Everyone has had someone close to them die of cancer. Cancer doesn't care who you are. It has neither an ideology, nor an agenda. That being said, how do you feel about this army idea: 4th Edition daemonettes with bloody mastectomy scars; Imperial Guardsmen with their lower jaws surgically removed with a little oncology department display base; little, scratchbuilt, jaundiced babies with brown, cancerous lumps all over their bodies. Wouldn't that be an awesome army? That would be high-larious how I'm mocking cancer...
Taking miniature figures into a temple would probably get a bad reaction regardless. And I'd like to think the more progressive Jewish people would not be going to temple but thats another issue altogether!
Why? Jewish people (or any people of faith) can't see the skill and artistry in painted figs? My point was that they may not find YOUR version of painted figs very humorous, no matter how hard you tried to explain to them that they shouldn't be "automatically 100% offended." After all, "It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant."
Tell that one to grandma. You know, the one with the numbers tatooed on her wrist.
jab4962 wrote:The Nazi group, or National Socialist German Organization, is a political organization, which technically had absolutely nothing to do with any racism of any kind. Even if it did, it's your free will to display your troops however you want. America was based on the freedom to express what you want, how you want it. I would just say to keep it tasteful.
Exactly how does one "tastefuly" build an army themed after Nazis?
I'm not trolling here,and belive me ,I'm a huge advocate of freedom of expresion,I'm just a bit foggy as to how a tasteful nazi army is created.
jab4962 wrote:The Nazi group, or National Socialist German Organization, is a political organization, which technically had absolutely nothing to do with any racism of any kind. Even if it did, it's your free will to display your troops however you want. America was based on the freedom to express what you want, how you want it. I would just say to keep it tasteful.
Exactly how does one "tastefuly" build an army themed after Nazis?
I'm not trolling here,and belive me ,I'm a huge advocate of freedom of expresion,I'm just a bit foggy as to how a tasteful nazi army is created.
Well I would say that as long as the models are just displayed in accurate uniforms, and no forms of racism are displayed on the models, then there would be no reason for anybody to complain.
jab4962 wrote:The Nazi group, or National Socialist German Organization, is a political organization, which technically had absolutely nothing to do with any racism of any kind. Even if it did, it's your free will to display your troops however you want. America was based on the freedom to express what you want, how you want it. I would just say to keep it tasteful.
Exactly how does one "tastefuly" build an army themed after Nazis?
I'm not trolling here,and belive me ,I'm a huge advocate of freedom of expresion,I'm just a bit foggy as to how a tasteful nazi army is created.
Well I would say that as long as the models are just displayed in accurate uniforms, and no forms of racism are displayed on the models, then there would be no reason for anybody to complain.
Well.I myself would have no problem with a "German themed" army,however I would ,in all honesty, have a knee jerk dislike for any army displaying swastikas and nazi icons.
It may seem trivial,but I have been in several fights with Skinheads (my Girlfriend is Black/Purteo Rican) and those symbols (even though that's all they are) bring out the worst in me.
Why don't we just skip straight to discussing whether or not painting up Deathstrike missiles as ICBM's, and Vendetta's done up like the Enola Gay and Bockscar are okay?
I´ll find kinda funny if you put orks with the tipical nazi general hat, bandages, military and maibe(just maibe) some doing the posee.
BUT don´t exagerate lad. I mean a hitler looking warboss shouting MAY be funny but if you start putting esvasticas and racism... I myself would hunt you down
Kids in my school think I have racial issues and that´s not a good place to be
WWII German themed? Fine, go ahead, the Death Korps and Steel Legion got away with it.
Nazi themed? Hell no. Believe it or not, there are coloured/homosexual/religious people in this hobby, and it's just bad taste to put swastikas and red armbands everywhere.
The issue should not be with the design as the swastika is infact a symbol of peace in Hindu. Just because it was used by the nazi`s does not make it a bad symbol. They could have used a celtic cross. At the end of the day its not the symbol that done the damage it was the people.
As for your ork idea. Go for it, its quirky and would fit in well if it was done correctly
Most people don't know that though. They see that symbol and first thing that springs to mind is "ZOMG! Hitler!!!". That's why it is best to avoid the issue completely and leave out the Nazi and Axis symbols.
FITZZ wrote:
Exactly how does one "tastefully" build an army themed after Nazis?
How does a historically thematic one stop being tasteful?
Graf von Stauffenburg wasn't the monster his affiliation presumes.
Rommel was a consummate professional, rather than a ravening desert horror.
Whites aren't all pig ignorant rednecks.
The Black Panthers had more than a few good ideas, despite their tactics.
Are these really taboo, or are they valid to explore?
I think its fine, I mean orks are far worse than Nazis ever were anyway, plus, orks are rediculous in the first place, and it actually kinda makes sense. I mean, mad doks are definetly influenced by the 'chirurgens' the nazis employed to do 'experiments' on people, and its not like the nazis committed the only atrocities in the war, I mean the japanese practically tortured and killed thousands of chinese, vietnamese and war prisoners, and stalin killed like what, 30 million of his own people?
We have to take it down a notch at some point and look at the big picture, I mean, look how many people play and advocate space marines, or even the imperium in general... they are all a bunch of nazis!!
As for the original question posed in this thread, I'm just going to re-post what I wrote a while ago in this thread, which in turn was responding to this army:
yakface wrote:Obviously the use of potentially offensive real-world images in a science fiction miniature game is a tricky situation, as evidenced by the discussion on this forum. The reactions from people range from: "This is ridiculous it is a miniature game, it doesn't matter what you put on your models" to "The use of such themes and images is clearly a statement being pushed by the creator."
This sort of outrage and counter-outrage at the outrage is eeirly reminiscent of the last time a really well-painted model incorporated real-world iconography. . .Victor Hardy's Greater Daemon model that had an image of a daemonic Madonna/baby Jesus painted onto it.
What both these cases illustrate is that, like life, whenever you display something as your own, be it a t-shirt, bumper sticker, or miniature, this is a form of communication that other people will see, interpret and come to their own conclusions about you and why you have chosen to put forth whatever message they believe you are sending. The problem with a miniature (or any other work of art), is that the meaning behind the creator's work isn't always clear, at least not as clear as a T-shirt saying: "White Power!", which obviously has a pretty succinct message.
So without personally knowing the creator, or the ultimate goal or meaning of his work people are left to judge what has been put forth at face value and decide for themselves if it is a harmless incorporation of historical themes or rather it is a cleverly designed piece of propaganda.
I'm sure that if we were able to meet the creator in person, 95% of us would be able to judge in fairly short order what type of person he was and that judgement would quickly change our perception of his work. But the problem with the internet, or if we were to view pictures of the army in another format, is that we don't get to physically meet the person who created the army and without that basic connection many of us will forever be in doubt of their motives, no matter what they write about their intentions.
All of which begs the question: Even if the creator has absolutely no ill-will in mind with his work, why would he go to such (obviously) great lengths to create something that will be found in poor taste by a large percentage of the population? Gaming is a social hobby and for the most part the goal is for you and your opponent to have a good time playing against each other. So why would someone wish to create an army that they would essentially have to explain themselves everytime they play against a new player?
Which opens up a whole different slew of questions: Did the creator really think that no one would be offended by his work? If so, how could he possibly be so naive? If not, why would he want subject himself to the hassle of dealing with repeated negative allegations stemming from his work? Is he desperate for attention or does he really have an agenda he's trying to push?
Ultimately, these are legitimate questions that need to be asked and discussed by the gaming community as it will be people like us that play games against armies like this and everyone needs to be fully aware of how other people will react to different images. I think this army, and this discussion, have done a very good job of showing the different sides of this difficult subject.
Anytime you incorporate real-world iconography into your army you have to be prepared for people to interpret those symbols and come to their own conclusions about what you have created. The more potent the real-world symbol, the more likely that others will draw negative conclusions about your motives. Finally, if you use potent real-world images on your models knowing that you will draw negative reactions from a good percentage of people you show it to, what does that say about yourself?
And as for this statement:
JD21290 wrote:Going off topic slightly here, but i just wanted to ask something thats allways wound me up
Now, im by no means a racist person (i would lose my job if i was)
but now we find all these rappers refering to each other by the N word (much like i call someone a mate or a bud) yet thats fine.
Someone of another colour says it and its instant racism.
Ive just wondered that if it was so offensive, why do they use it as a friendly name to eachother?
The fact that you're actually seriously asking this question may indicate that you have some serious cultural insensitivity issues, IMHO, and I'll explain why:
Words have tremendous power as they have connotation behind them based on historical precdence and/or social references. Therefore the context and meaning of a word is highly dependent upon whom is saying it, the venue it is being said in, not to mention the tone and context that it is said in.
To give you an easy to understand example that may make more sense to you, take the words 'geek' or 'nerd'. Typically, when those words are used by those who don't consider themselves 'nerdy' or 'geeky' the connotation is a negative one: that 'nerds' and 'geeks' are odd, strange outcasts from society.
However, when someone who considers themselves a 'nerd' or 'geek' refers to themselves as one of these things or something as 'nerdy' or 'geeky' they are saying it with pride. They are indicating that although their tastes may be outside the cultural 'norm' they are proud of their station in life because it make them unique.
Can you therefore understand that WHO says the word changes its meaning? And can you see that using a label that is traditionally thought of negatively by a member of that group entitles the user to a sense of pride? In that they are taking something that was traditionally thought of negatively and turning it on its head and saying they are proud to be that?
Now the terms 'geek' and 'nerd' have only ever been very lightly negative, so in turn their use by 'geeks' and 'nerds' is equally not all that empowering.
However, the 'N' word has had an absolute horrible history, essentially being the byword for a concept that certain races of people are mentally and genetically inferior to others, and that this race wasn't worthy for equality, freedom, etc.
So this word has tremendous historical negative power behind it, which gives it the equal amount of positive power when used by someone who is considered part of that group. That word is their badge of honor now to wield as they see fit (as little or as much as they like) as a reminder to all of us about the horrible things our world is capable of when we arrogantly assume that one person, by birth, is ever 'better' than another person.
FITZZ wrote:
Exactly how does one "tastefully" build an army themed after Nazis?
How does a historically thematic one stop being tasteful?
Graf von Stauffenburg wasn't the monster his affiliation presumes.
Rommel was a consummate professional, rather than a ravening desert horror.
Whites aren't all pig ignorant rednecks.
The Black Panthers had more than a few good ideas, despite their tactics.
Are these really taboo, or are they valid to explore?
Well,to start I'm certianly in no way implying that all white people are ignorant rednecks,nor am I even saying that every single individule involved in the National Socialist party was a monster,hell honestly I don't view any person as "monstorous",simply cappable of great cruelty.
All I'm really getting at is, that using the Nazi party and Nazi Icons as a template for an army is ,IMO in poor taste,and will ,in all likelyhood create some situations that may become less than friendly.
Now,as far as exploring,researching,studing etc ANY political,social,religious etc, organization or philosiphy,I'm all for it,I don't advocate censorship..however,people should be prepared to deal with the negative reprecussions that the choices they make may have.
H.B.M.C. wrote:Most people don't know that though. They see that symbol and first thing that springs to mind is "ZOMG! Hitler!!!". That's why it is best to avoid the issue completely and leave out the Nazi and Axis symbols.
This is very true but its also a part of the problem. People automatically assume its evil and yet there is plenty of information out there if people were only to look. I in no way condone what happened during the war. Its where people have an idea that is shot down because of the too close mindedness of people an dhow it affects them.
Also the Imperial eagle design could be taken as offensive and has been. I know some people with it tattooed and they are forever having to explain what it actually is.
Fair? No. Its just the way people are.
The idea for the force itself with all the humour can be justified and I do think it is a good idea though some may not.
Orkeosaurus wrote:Is your avatar from Dawn of the Dead?
Why yes it is,from the original movie poster.
And,as a matter of fact,(sort of in line with H.B.M.C's tattoo comment) I'm in the process of getting a colage of Romero Zombies Tattooed on my leg,including the one in my avatar. ( wow,I am so off topic it's nuts. )
Okay if you make the Orks Nazi's you gotta make the Gretchin in little prison clothes with chains on their ankles maybe the little balls and chains too.
I personally have no problem with armies being panted/modeled after anything cause I have core values that I don't judge or force others into.
And I would model a Gretchin as Hitler instead of a warboss just cause that would be hilarious!
H.B.M.C. wrote:Most people don't know that though. They see that symbol and first thing that springs to mind is "ZOMG! Hitler!!!". That's why it is best to avoid the issue completely and leave out the Nazi and Axis symbols.
This is very true but its also a part of the problem. People automatically assume its evil and yet there is plenty of information out there if people were only to look. I in no way condone what happened during the war. Its where people have an idea that is shot down because of the too close mindedness of people an dhow it affects them.
Blah, blah, blah. The unwashed masses know that the swastika is not an exclusive or original symbol of Nazi Germany. However, grey fatigues, red armbands, and white circles, sans a swastika, are still just as evocative and leaves no doubt as to the origins of the imagery.
It's not to garner me attention, I've only ever posted like 15 messages or something and my other 2 threads are my army list.
So, you say it's not to garner attention, but 10-20% of all of your posts on Dakka are regarding making a Nazi-themed army. Your argument would make more sense if you had 1000 posts with half a dozen about Nazi figs, but I digress.
You've got to start somewhere. Why do you think scientists (or the fifth graders making projects on posterboards) test multiple times? Come back after he's at 1000 posts, then you can argue more.
People could easily say Nazi and Hitler imagery has no place in Comedy as a whole. Which misses the point. Comedy helps relieve a society and everyone likes taking the piss out of Hitler, thats why there's no problem.
The "comedy" you speak of will be next to nil in your army and will be seen by a handful of people. Making a mockery of the Nazis or joking about their incompetency (per Hogan's Heroes) is one thing. I have a feeling your wit will be poorly executed and difficult to actually find.
Without base nor reason. Keep thinking.
Infact I think I show more maturity being able to look at Nazis and not just be automatically 100% offended and be able to take the piss out of them. It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant.
You asked for my opinion about what I thought of your idea. I find it unimaginative and poorly concieved. Who's crying?
No one is, he is using an example. Perhaps crying is a bit gratuitous, but the concept stands. Being touchy over anyone including "Nazi" in the sentence is just... Well, silly.
If I was Jewish I'd love people taking the piss out of Hitler, Why wouldn't I? Sure it's a sensitive issue but you're being comedic [bold]against[/bold] him.
Also, I've had several close friends die of Cancer, and if someone makes a cancer joke I can still see the humour in it. I think this is much more mature than just simply being offended all the time.
Everyone has had someone close to them die of cancer. Cancer doesn't care who you are. It has neither an ideology, nor an agenda. That being said, how do you feel about this army idea: 4th Edition daemonettes with bloody mastectomy scars; Imperial Guardsmen with their lower jaws surgically removed with a little oncology department display base; little, scratchbuilt, jaundiced babies with brown, cancerous lumps all over their bodies. Wouldn't that be an awesome army? That would be high-larious how I'm mocking cancer...
You're comparing an army that will be covered in straight up gay attire that will mock the Nazi regime in just about every way possible (the fact it's with the incredibly ragtag, unorganized orks says a lot too) is in no way comparable to cancerous infants. There isn't even an attempt at parody in your examples, a sick psychopathic feth would make armies like that, no one else. Here, how about I give you an example of an infanticide army, with imperial guardsman in jungle attire bashing babies against trees as their comrades cover a stricken crowd with AK 47s? Oh ho, what a perfect mothertrucking example to use in an argument!
Taking miniature figures into a temple would probably get a bad reaction regardless. And I'd like to think the more progressive Jewish people would not be going to temple but thats another issue altogether!
Why? Jewish people (or any people of faith) can't see the skill and artistry in painted figs? My point was that they may not find YOUR version of painted figs very humorous, no matter how hard you tried to explain to them that they shouldn't be "automatically 100% offended." After all, "It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant."
Tell that one to grandma. You know, the one with the numbers tatooed on her wrist.
Err... No. I can't take my STG army to church, period. It's not appropriate, whether you've modelled your command squad after the apostles or German High Command, it's just not the place for them. It has nothing to do with skill and artistry, it has to do with the fact there's a time and place for everything, and sporting figures from a sci-fi galaxy with genocidal societies and genocidal wars going on is not something to bring up with the Pastor, Sheik, Monk, whatever.
Good Lord, this thread should be locked... Now.
Rico.
edit: 'scuse the weird quotes, I am not the most adept at this... You get the gist of my message though.
Mr.R4nd0m wrote:Okay if you make the Orks Nazi's you gotta make the Gretchin in little prison clothes with chains on their ankles maybe the little balls and chains too.
...
No.
No.
That's akin to the KKK-dressed Munda figures lynch scene.
That's just... Wow... Unnecessary? Gratuitous? What else... Over the top? Idiotic? Dumb? Stupid?
With an army like that, people are definitely going to get pissed.
I'd punch whoever had that KKK army in the face. I really can't stand racism, it's just one of my pet peeves.
Go to jail. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go. Do not collect 200$.
Oh yes, and enjoy the closed door in your future due to having a felony assault charge on your record.
Seeing something that "offeeeeeends" you is never a justification for assault.
(editops, forgot a pragraph)
But you are probably safe. I don;t for a moment that you would actually do something like that. It's just yet another example (much like the guy who on page two claimed he would "hunt down" a player with a Nazi themed army) of the "internet tough guy syndrome"
If I recall, the old Stormboys outfit was very similar to the WW2 German uniform.
I confess.
My stormboy unit (consisting of the old 2nd edition models that do have a strong Germanic feel to them) is painted up in grey uniforms, black helmets, and red arm bands with a single lightning bolt standing in for the swastika and no over-sensitive cone-head has ever complained.
the_Armyman wrote:
The "comedy" you speak of will be next to nil in your army and will be seen by a handful of people. Making a mockery of the Nazis or joking about their incompetency (per Hogan's Heroes) is one thing. I have a feeling your wit will be poorly executed and difficult to actually find.
Without base nor reason. Keep thinking.
Yes, because it's almost certainly plausible that his conversion skills will make it readily apparent that it's ajoke a not simply a Nazi Ork army. Yup, without base or reason, but a near certain probability.
Rico wrote:
the_Armyman wrote:
Everyone has had someone close to them die of cancer. Cancer doesn't care who you are. It has neither an ideology, nor an agenda. That being said, how do you feel about this army idea: 4th Edition daemonettes with bloody mastectomy scars; Imperial Guardsmen with their lower jaws surgically removed with a little oncology department display base; little, scratchbuilt, jaundiced babies with brown, cancerous lumps all over their bodies. Wouldn't that be an awesome army? That would be high-larious how I'm mocking cancer...
You're comparing an army that will be covered in straight up gay attire that will mock the Nazi regime in just about every way possible (the fact it's with the incredibly ragtag, unorganized orks says a lot too) is in no way comparable to cancerous infants. There isn't even an attempt at parody in your examples, a sick psychopathic feth would make armies like that, no one else. Here, how about I give you an example of an infanticide army, with imperial guardsman in jungle attire bashing babies against trees as their comrades cover a stricken crowd with AK 47s? Oh ho, what a perfect mothertrucking example to use in an argument!
Your example is just as ridiculous and valid as mine. Hyperbole FTW and thanks for contributing to my point!
Rico wrote:
the_Armyman wrote:Why? Jewish people (or any people of faith) can't see the skill and artistry in painted figs? My point was that they may not find YOUR version of painted figs very humorous, no matter how hard you tried to explain to them that they shouldn't be "automatically 100% offended." After all, "It's immature just crying every time the Nazis are brought into anything other than Historical or Moral discussions, thats just ignorant."
Tell that one to grandma. You know, the one with the numbers tatooed on her wrist.
Err... No. I can't take my STG army to church, period. It's not appropriate, whether you've modelled your command squad after the apostles or German High Command, it's just not the place for them. It has nothing to do with skill and artistry, it has to do with the fact there's a time and place for everything, and sporting figures from a sci-fi galaxy with genocidal societies and genocidal wars going on is not something to bring up with the Pastor, Sheik, Monk, whatever.
I'm sorry you can't take your minis to church. Sounds like a rather intolerant group. My minis are on display in my home, and both parishioners and clergy have seen my minis when they have visited my home. They've all been impressed at my skill. They have no idea of the setting or the "grimdarkness" of the genre, because I don't put such ridiculous imagery as Nazi symbols on my minis. See where I'm going here?
Rico wrote:Good Lord, this thread should be locked... Now.
Rico.
Of course it should! Rico has spoken and there can be no further discussion allowed.
Rico you have an over confrontational attitude and are out to force your view on others where as I mearly voiced my idea you called it "Unnecessary? Gratuitous? What else... Over the top? Idiotic? Dumb? Stupid? "
Unnecessary like every thing that isn't food sleep and water yes its unnecessary.
As per the name calling I'm not going to address that blatant rule breaking, and would kindly recommend you un-subscribe from this thread if you feel the need to call more people names like that.
Edit: And sense I have given my opinion on the matter I'll take my leave and go about other business.
Haunted_Undead wrote:Also the Imperial eagle design could be taken as offensive and has been. I know some people with it tattooed and they are forever having to explain what it actually is.
Oddly enough a friend of mine wants to get an Aquila tatoo, but knows he'd be forever explaining what it is.
Orkestra wrote:Judging from the recent film 'Inglourious Basterds', they'd be perfectly okay with it.
Because people who fight injustice are heroes. There's really no comparison between the two.
As much as I enjoyed that movie, I was able to see that it was kinda pointing out that there isn't much of a difference between either side. Sure the Nazis liked to focus on specific groups of people, the Allies would (not just in the film) kill Germans simply to kill them. The Allies never got in trouble because they won the war.
the_Armyman wrote: Make all the comparisons you want with how terrible Stalin was compared to Hitler, but making Hitler minis and an army of red armband-wearing figs in a Fantasy/Sci-Fi setting is inappropriate and speaks a bit of your maturity.
Knee jerk reactions to things that happened over sixty years ago speak volumes about your maturity. If you're not able to handle references to regimes that GW themselves reference in their writing and even model design are you sure you are in the right hobby? There is no issue with making a model and showing that you are using something from history to represent something loosely inspired by various events through out it. The only time you should take offense to "Nazi" or WWII German imagery is if they have Swastikas and the SS thunderbolt runes plastered all over them, or as mentioned by some others Grots or even Imperials made up to look like they are in Death Camps, that is in bad taste.
If you or anyone else truly believes that it isn't offensive, put it to a very simple test: take your minis to temple on Friday and see how people react. Let us all know how that goes.
So you automatically assume that everyone is Jewish? Well that's beside the point. I believe this isn't offensive and the Jewish people I know wouldn't find it offinsive.
So OP, I say go for it, just stay away from Swastikas, SS runes and Death Camp Grots.
Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't think it's a problem as long as you're careful to land the right side of humourous so that nobody could mistake you for a white supremacist or something.
Good luck with that. Some people take offence at everything and anything even though for all intents and purposes you were trying to make light of the situation.
Someone, somewhere, somehow will always take offence. The question one has to ask is how much trouble are you going to get in for it (i.e., getting kicked out of a game/tournament)
Rico wrote:Good Lord, this thread should be locked... Now.
Rico.
Of course it should! Rico has spoken and there can be no further discussion allowed.
Hmm, no. Sorry! You and I both know we're barely on topic, and it would not hurt the thread if we took our current argument outside (stick with me, I am working on my metaphors).
The Orks actually had this in the Stormboyz old models were modeled very nazish and stated to be rather fascist I believe as thy were young orks and that is how they rebelled.
If people have a problem wiht your creativity then that is their problem and they just wont play games with you
but if your haunted and find it wrong then why are you even doing it?
BrotherStynier wrote:I was able to see that it was kinda pointing out that there isn't much of a difference between either side. Sure the Nazis liked to focus on specific groups of people, the Allies would (not just in the film) kill Germans simply to kill them. The Allies never got in trouble because they won the war.
Nothing America or Britain did came anywhere near Germany's atrocities. Except possibly Dresden. (And, domestically, you could say the Japanese internment.)
The USSR was another matter, although given their treatment by the Germans it was something you could have seen coming.
I didn't mean we did atrocities close to their level, but we were hardly as good as people would like to believe. War is hell, people do questionable things, sometimes the get in trouble for it, like the Death Camp Officers and others get away with it.
And yet others find loop holes, see Otto Skorzeny and the Ardennes Offensive.
Oh yes, just wait till I build my 'amusing' 9/11 terrorist Tallarn desert raiders, with text from the Qu'ran written down their tanks and an enormous banner featuring the twin towers (of a hive city) ablaze!
Imma gunna sculpt greenstuff beards on them an have captured civilian transports instead of valks and make little dioramas inside of the pilots getting their throats cut as the Tallarn-iban take control. Disembarking might be problematic though...
It's obviously only little toy soldiers though and I'm obviously satiring, everyone will understand and marvel at my razor sharp wit, won't they!...Won't they? Is there a Games Day New York I could show this off at?
... does this aid at all in reaching a conclusion about how bad an idea nazi orks are?
I'd say the idea is...borderline, maybe. Probably a good idea not to bother with it at all if you ask me, but so long as you don't create an army like "The Master Race", then you're fine in my book...
Although MGS does have a very good point I suppose. Like I said, probably better not to do it.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Oh yes, just wait till I build my 'amusing' 9/11 terrorist Tallarn desert raiders, with text from the Qu'ran written down their tanks and an enormous banner featuring the twin towers (of a hive city) ablaze!
Imma gunna sculpt greenstuff beards on them an have captured civilian transports instead of valks and make little dioramas inside of the pilots getting their throats cut as the Tallarn-iban take control. Disembarking might be problematic though...
It's obviously only little toy soldiers though and I'm obviously satiring, everyone will understand and marvel at my razor sharp wit, won't they!...Won't they? Is there a Games Day New York I could show this off at?
... does this aid at all in reaching a conclusion about how bad an idea nazi orks are?
The difference being that one is still very fresh in people's minds and the other isn't. You are also assuming that most people are gonna be putting Swastikas all over everything to make the fact that they are Nazis stick out like a sore thumb. There is really no problem with people using uniform schemes or other things that make you think of Germans, ie monocles stand out to some people, black uniforms, very orderly. You can accomplish getting away with the feel of what could be a Nazi or German army with out throwing around the Swastika or SS runes, if the uniforms or way the equipment looks bothers you that much maybe the rod up your ass needs to be slid out a bit more.
I assure you, no matter how much fun the army is meant to be, someone somewhere is going to get offended.
Now, when people get offended about Nazi references, they are on very solid ground. You will find your moral basis for doing the army is easy to question.
BrotherStynier wrote:
The difference being that one is still very fresh in people's minds and the other isn't. You are also assuming that most people are gonna be putting Swastikas all over everything to make the fact that they are Nazis stick out like a sore thumb. There is really no problem with people using uniform schemes or other things that make you think of Germans, ie monocles stand out to some people, black uniforms, very orderly. You can accomplish getting away with the feel of what could be a Nazi or German army with out throwing around the Swastika or SS runes, if the uniforms or way the equipment looks bothers you that much maybe the rod up your ass needs to be slid out a bit more.
A German WW2 army theme, colour of grey etc, isn't what the OP was raising though Stynier, I'm making a militaristic blood axe army myself with imperium/german/soviet feel about it. The OP was stating his intention to build an army using the Swastika and make a Hitler warboss. I think pushing things to that level is really chancing very real offence. Saying it was a long time ago doesn't really detract from the fact I can go and sit with my grandparents and have them talk about those times like it was yesterday.
Creating an army like that pushes the boundaries of good taste and for me speaks volumes about how fortunate, privileged and sheltered we must be today to trivialise the darkest times the world has seen in many centuries.
Then again we have WW2 armies in the game Flames of War and others, I was going to say those must use the swastika on German armies, but a quick google search left me seeing none, instead they used the Iron Cross design, I don't think that design has anything like the connotations of the Swastika, relating to the army rather than the Nazi party.
I don't know what the answer is, I don't think if my grandfather walked with me into a GW store and saw the swastika painted onto toy soldiers would think, I doubt it would matter overly that they had green skin, only that that imagery would remind him of six brothers slain to an enemy that threatened the free world. I think he would find it offensive, that is enough for me to say it is a bad idea.
But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it. People can question the morals behind it all they want, they can assume all they want, but unless they know you personally they wouldn't know for sure if you actually did the army because you like the look of the German Army and you respect how the Army functioned and what the Army managed to do or whether or not you support the idea of wholesale slaughter of a whole race. Either way people won't like it but its not their army and they don't have to play against it if they dont want too.
Most people it seems would take anything resembling Germany, even from the First Reich on wards to be Nazi, because the Nazis borrowed that imagery. So even if you try not to make it Nazi people will still assume its Nazi. Point and case the thread which was linked to earlier in this one. There was lots of Prussian era to WWI era influence yet most people only saw a few Nazi references or imagery that the Neo-Nazis had adopted.
Easiest way to get away with a German themed Army in my opinion would be to paint them In Fallschirmjager Splinter '41, SS Dot 44 or SS Oak Pattern as not many people can connect the dots and figure out whats going on.
EDIT @MGS- you managed to sneak in before me, so give me a moment and I'll edit in some stuff once I've read your post.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:
A German WW2 army theme, colour of grey etc, isn't what the OP was raising though Stynier, I'm making a militaristic blood axe army myself with imperium/german/soviet feel about it. The OP was stating his intention to build an army using the Swastika and make a Hitler warboss. I think pushing things to that level is really chancing very real offence. Saying it was a long time ago doesn't really detract from the fact I can go and sit with my grandparents and have them talk about those times like it was yesterday.
Okay point taken I honestly missed the part with Hitler the war boss and blatant iconography. I know there are people still alive from that time frame that you can still talk to about the war, my Grandparent and several Great Uncles are amongst that group. Would they get offended by a Nazi themed Army? Maybe one of them and he's not even one that fought in the War or lived through two invasions (Grandfather is dutch he was in Indo-China for the Japanese and Holland for the German Invasions, spent the rest of the war in Holland.) but he and the ones who fought wouldn't have as much of an issue their kids all expressed interest in it and my dad atleast when he was younger would play hex games insisting on being the Germans. I know everyone is different and in my family and with a bunch of people I know the idea of a German themed anything wouldn't be too outrageous for them.
Creating an army like that pushes the boundaries of good taste and for me speaks volumes about how fortunate, privileged and sheltered we must be today to trivialise the darkest times the world has seen in many centuries.
I would agree that an Army showing everyone in Black uniforms with Swastikas and SS symbols everywhere would in or very near bad taste. Yes people these days are sheltered from events like that because we haven't had a war like that since the Korean War which even then wasn't as big nor did it effect the global community as much so we do trivialize things like that. But I would think people of this age would be less likely to accept a "terrorist" themed army due to the events of the past few years.
Then again we have WW2 armies in the game Flames of War and others, I was going to say those must use the swastika on German armies, but a quick google search left me seeing none, instead they used the Iron Cross design, I don't think that design has anything like the connotations of the Swastika, relating to the army rather than the Nazi party.
The only things I believe the Swastika appears on in Flames of War or most historical games is the Tail of German aircraft where they did put the Swastika, Flags draped over engine compartments to show friendly aircraft they were not targets and the emblem of the Afrika Korps. The Swastika was primarily just the emblem of the party and the state with the military primarily keeping the Iron Cross much like they still do.
I don't know what the answer is, I don't think if my grandfather walked with me into a GW store and saw the swastika painted onto toy soldiers would think, I doubt it would matter overly that they had green skin, only that that imagery would remind him of six brothers slain to an enemy that threatened the free world. I think he would find it offensive, that is enough for me to say it is a bad idea.
While that would be how your Grandfather would react, it wouldn't be how mine would react despite also losing family defending the free world. I respect you family's sacrifice and how he and yourself would react. But its different from my families reaction and how I would react, its all a matter of how your families deal with things and how you were brought up, I was brought up by a man interested in the military of the Third Reich and what those units accomplished and that rubbed off on me. So if I saw a WWII themed army that was painted how the Army was historically I'd be interested in it and which unit served as the inspiration.
As with the responces to the OP, you can expect mixed reaction. I would imagine most people will say nothing or have a laugh at it, however there will also be those who will accuse you of being a Nazi yourself, or at least take offence in some form or another. The vast majority of these people will be the types who "choose" to be offended at just about anything because it gives them attention.
Personaly I don't have a problem with it. It is certainly no worse than collecting and painting a WW2 German army, which many do and ironicaly seems to draw less negative attention.
As for attrocities, the bombing of Dresden (which if I remember correctly was a response for the bombing of Coventry) does in no way compare with the Holocaust. My grandfather was a Lancaster pilot in WW2, I never had the honour of meeting him although my grandmother told me that before every raid he would pray, and after every raid he would cry. At that stage in the war nearly everyone on both sides was desperate for it to end and as such actions were ordered (such as the droping of the two atomic bombs on Japan) to try and draw the war to a close as swiftly as possible.
BrotherStynier wrote:But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it.
We get into shaky ground then, if the rational is 'well everything will upset someone so lets just roll with it, then I'm building a beastman army of slaanesh all greenstuffed to look like PedoBears all buggering the same 8 year old. I'm no PC treehugger but Nazism really is a delicate subject and deserves careful handling, even today.
BrotherStynier wrote:
While that would be how your Grandfather would react, it wouldn't be how mine would react despite also losing family defending the free world. I respect you family's sacrifice and how he and yourself would react. But its different from my families reaction and how I would react, its all a matter of how your families deal with things and how you were brought up, I was brought up by a man interested in the military of the Third Reich and what those units accomplished and that rubbed off on me. So if I saw a WWII themed army that was painted how the Army was historically I'd be interested in it and which unit served as the inspiration.
He would probably be interested in historically respectful units etc, say a historic battle or skirmish being played out on the table, he took me to a convention in Plymouth when I was a boy and there was a (not historically accurate) naval battle between Japanese and British Fleets that he watched for a while and nodded sagely as the young guys explained which ship was which (3 of his brothers flew in the Fleet Air Arm). Not fantasy monsters having amusing Nazi antics, I imagine you lose interest in amusing Nazi antics when one of your brothers was bayoneted to death by several of them.
BrotherStynier wrote:But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it.
We get into shaky ground then, if the rational is 'well everything will upset someone so lets just roll with it, then I'm building a beastman army of slaanesh all greenstuffed to look like PedoBears all buggering the same 8 year old. I'm no PC treehugger but Nazism really is a delicate subject and deserves careful handling, even today.
I would think the same would be true about handling the Vietnam War which is a sensitive subject for several people I know, but the Catachan have the antics of that time, which some people could find offensive. I will admit though probably not nearly as offensive as the Nazis, and I agree with you it is kinda shaky ground, another one of my blurt something out and hope people don't think too much about it.
He would probably be interested in historically respectful units etc, say a historic battle or skirmish being played out on the table, he took me to a convention in Plymouth when I was a boy and there was a (not historically accurate) navel battle between Japanese and British Fleets that he watched for a while. Not fantasy monsters having amusing Nazi antics, I imagine you lose interest in amusing Nazi antics when one of your brothers was bayoneted to death by several of them.
Well that's just how some people are, they'd rather deal with something that portrays them the way they were, not in a comical or what's the word... mimicking manner. I would agree that several different types of people would lose interest in amusing antics if a situation like that where to have happened to someone close to them.
Catachans aren't Vietnam, they are Rambo from First Blood Part 2. Most soldiers in 'Nam didn't wear wifebeaters into combat like all Catachans do. They also often wore helmets. I watched Platoon, I know.
BrotherStynier wrote:But like you said KK someone somewhere will get offended regardless. If that's the case what's it matter just go a head and do it.
We get into shaky ground then, if the rational is 'well everything will upset someone so lets just roll with it, then I'm building a beastman army of slaanesh all greenstuffed to look like PedoBears all buggering the same 8 year old. I'm no PC treehugger but Nazism really is a delicate subject and deserves careful handling, even today.
I would think the same would be true about handling the Vietnam War which is a sensitive subject for several people I know, but the Catachan have the antics of that time, which some people could find offensive. I will admit though probably not nearly as offensive as the Nazis, and I agree with you it is kinda shaky ground, another one of my blurt something out and hope people don't think too much about it.
And I just saw a modelling scenario of some catachan POWs all around a table playing russian roulette with some Tau viet cong stood around them screaming at them to pull the boltpistol trigger...
Yeah that definitily would be one of those offensive scenarios with toy soldiers. Personally I find that to be almost as bad as modeling SS Orks with Jew Grots.
People can make whatever counter-arguments they like involving Vietnam, historical armies, and other such topics.
The fact remains that if you 'for fun' paint up a fantasy or SF army as a Nazi army, you are going to run into trouble.
It has been debated before on Dakka, when an SM army (beautifully painted) had Nazi-like iconography. People clearly identified it was meant to be a Nazi army, and lots of them didn't like the idea.
squilverine wrote:It is certainly no worse than collecting and painting a WW2 German army, which many do and ironicaly seems to draw less negative attention.
I dunno about that.
A historicals WW2 German army won't have swastikas being used for gratuitous purposes. It'll conform to historical standards, and may not have a single swastika on a single model. If I'm doing a late war Ostfront Panzer force, it's all white tanks.
OTOH, a pseudo-historical WW2 German army selected specifically to see how much fascist Nazi iconography can be presented *would* be offensive because the intent is to offend.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Haunted_Undead wrote:The issue should not be with the design as the swastika is infact a symbol of peace in Hindu.
As a pure symbol, that depends on which way it rotates.
But when presented in block black on white over a red field, it has no Hindu (or Amerind) connotations whatsoever.
As OP I want to clear up a few things people seem to be getting wrong.
There will be no Sawstikas in my army. I actually asked if I should do one with an ork spin, but even asking that question shows I shouldn't really do it.
Second thing is the red arm bands are bearly recognisable as Nazi when put on orks, theres no white circle on them, just red bands, they look like any other piece of clothing.
Third; they're all in black red and white but its a common theme in 40k.
I don't think anyone would know these are Nazis unless I told them. If I put in anything even close to a swastica it's be rainbow coloured instead of red, with a white circle in the middle and a heart in the middle.
Plus the Hitler would be a Grot in a officers hat, a trench coat, the moustache if its even possible and holding up a little white flag.
The army won't be blatantly Nazi just the same kind of uniform. I hate the idea of everyone doing Nazi themed armies and this is a twist on it I've not seen anyone do...A piss take!
Tarondor wrote:
Plus the Hitler would be a Grot in a officers hat, a trench coat, the moustache if its even possible and holding up a little white flag.
Actually, I think this would be pretty funny. No more offensive than any of the propaganda cartoons produced during the war.
Y'know? Every time I see one of these threads pop up, I can't help but laugh. So many people get so up in arms and all mad and stuff. "That will be offensive to some people" and the like. Somebody in this thread even likened a Nazi-esque theme to a pedophile army?!?!
Seriously? Talk about reaching...
This is always such a stupid arguement. It's not like he's making his Shokk Attack Guns to look like clay ovens with burning Grots in them. Just because people make Nazi-themed armies (most of them, anyway) it doesn't mean that they are celebrating Nazi ideology or anti-Semitism or bragging about the atrocities.
Why is it ok for me to paint a huge army of SS, Whermacht, and Luftwaffe for my 20mm WWII game? Does it make me a Nazi sympathizer because I love playing the German army in WWII games? No. I have several shirts, belt buckles, and rings that have skull and crossbones on them. Does this mean I am celebrating the SS Totenkoph Division? To be perfectly honest, NOBODY can claim that any other fighting force in WWII had better, cooler-looking uniforms than the Germans, SS in particular. I suppose I shouldn't listen Richard Wagner while playing 40k. Tristan und Isolde, The Valkyrie, etc. are sure to offend somebody on the game table seeing as he was an overt anti-semetic and Hitler called him "The Master" and considered him the official soundtrack for Nazi-ism.
I ask you people that are outraged and arguing against this idea: What about people that make Japanese-themed 40k armies? Why is it "cool" to have Rising Suns on your banners/shoulder pads? The Japanese were EVERY BIT as ruthless in their atrocities as the Germans in WWII. Every bit. Read about the Bataan Death March or the Rape of Nanking.
More specifically, read this part of the Nanking atrocities.
Let's just overlook the fact that his subject title said "JOKE" so that we can all talk about how butthurt we (or 'somebody') we would be if we saw an army like this. All you people raging against Nazi-themed armies... listen up. The next time somebody posts pics of WWII-era Japanese-themed 40k armies, whether it be a Rising Sun or any other iconography, remember these pics of what they did to the Chinese and ream them a new one for making such a terrible, tasteless, and offensive army:
Edit: Inappropriate images for a family-friendly site removed. --yakface
Such a stupid thread.
Make your damn Orks in Nazi colors and post LOTS of pics to piss these pansies off.
Tarondor wrote:As OP I want to clear up a few things people seem to be getting wrong.
There will be no Sawstikas in my army. I actually asked if I should do one with an ork spin, but even asking that question shows I shouldn't really do it.
Second thing is the red arm bands are bearly recognisable as Nazi when put on orks, theres no white circle on them, just red bands, they look like any other piece of clothing.
Third; they're all in black red and white but its a common theme in 40k.
I don't think anyone would know these are Nazis unless I told them. If I put in anything even close to a swastica it's be rainbow coloured instead of red, with a white circle in the middle and a heart in the middle.
Plus the Hitler would be a Grot in a officers hat, a trench coat, the moustache if its even possible and holding up a little white flag.
The army won't be blatantly Nazi just the same kind of uniform. I hate the idea of everyone doing Nazi themed armies and this is a twist on it I've not seen anyone do...A piss take!
There really shouldn't be a problem then since you sound like you're taking the right approach; like you mentioned swastikas are a definite no-go but there are plenty of Ork symbols to use.
And its not like GW hasn't blatantly made Nazi-inspired armies or other ethically-horrible inspirations like Valhallans aka Red Soviets; the Steel Legion basically look like WW2 Germans. Hell, the Steel Legion's rules were even blitzkrieg inspired since they were mech-heavy.
Not to mention that there are historical and alternate history wargames available, one in particular being Secrets of the Third Reich. Beyond tabletop you'll find people reenacting WW2 in accurate costumes, playing as the Nazis in video games, or make money off of it via books/movies/etc.
I havent read the thread, but I know back in 2nd edition I think there was a themed nazi ork army out there either in WD or on the warp website....
Its fine. Some people will take offense, but there always will be some. Just dont act like an ass at the table with it and you should be ok.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
H.B.M.C. wrote:Well I would have thrown him out of my (hypothetical imaginary) store as well, but not for having an army with swastikas on it, more for being so unoriginal and unimaginative (and, I imagine, for making his army without any sense of irony).
As I said, it's quite possible to do a WWII German-themed army without resorting using Nazi symbols.
Though I wonder what would happen if someone made a Tau army based off of WWII-era Japan?
I've been tempted to do a marine army based on the Sigrunen, the double lightning, and the SS. Never once would I put the swastika in the army or models. But Not sure how that get accepted.
I'm going to go ahead and lock this thread as we're treading the same ground that has been tread before with nothing new being added to the discussion. If you'd like to read an even longer discussion on essentially the same topic please check out this thread:
But I'm going to take a second to address those who feel outraged on both sides of this issue.
Whenever you display something as your own, people will make judgements about who you are and the motivations behind your choice in displaying such things. For an extreme example, you could put a 'WHITE POWER' bumper sticker on your car and in your mind you could know that you are being satirical and making fun of white supremacists, but anyone seeing your car will likely think at face value that you indeed support the cause.
Whenever you take real-world iconography or designs that have negative connotations and put them into a game, you are sending a message of some sort. Once people talk to you or play you they may quickly realize that your designs are purely aesthetic or they are done for satirical purposes, but those who just walk by and see your army or see pictures of it on the internet are not going to have that chance and will end up making judgements just based on the appearance of the army itself.
Does that mean it is completely inappropriate to create an army that uses questionable real-world iconography? Of course not. But you have to realize that you WILL get mixed reactions from people and you WILL have some people making judgements about your character based on what you have chosen to display as your own creation.
For those that get angry when people are 'outraged' by this kind of thing, you have to realize that different life experiences result in different perspectives in people. One person may feel like 9/11 jokes are appropriate for any number of reasons, but someone else whose parents died in 9/11 would obviously be much more likely to never think it is appropriate to joke about.
So when you are chiding people for being so closed-minded, you may want to realize that you are being equally closed-minded of other people's opinions and life-experiences that have led them to feel that a miniature army featuring questionable real-world iconography is inappropriate.
And on the flip-side, for those people who get so angry at the idea of an army featuring this kind of iconography that you say you would 'punch someone in the face' if you saw it, do you not see how making a snap judgement about someone based on something that may or may not be the statement you think they are making doesn't help to solve anything except to create more anger and potential violence?
While you may feel that something is inappropriate shouldn't your response be to engage the person in some friendly questions before making the kind of judgement that would theoretically lead to a violent response? Clearly context does matter or else any parody of Nazis (like, as mentioned previously, Mel Brooks movies) should be earning your ire as well.
In the end, everyone needs to remember that each and every person is shaped by different life experiences and therefore will react to these types of situations differently. While you certainly can disagree with the choices someone makes, the more you try to understand their motivation before passing judgement the less irrational anger we will have in our world, let alone in our little toy soldier hobby.
ops, forgot a pragraph)
ork hitler!!! 
