I'm sure people will have strong feelings one way or another but I'm going to come right out and say
"No, I don't think so".

I think the key to success with Chaos Marines lies in the troops. Termicide and Oblits are good support units but they're just that, support.

Considering that more and more people are switching to all Mech armies battles are becoming more and more fast and close range. Oblits are good for standing there and shooting, and termicide is used for those IG Basilisks hiding in the back. But most people will be more likely to destroy them with a melta gun now then with a lascannon. A unit of Chosen is more reliable, and they only outflank where you want them to 66% of the time, twice as much as a unit of termies is likely to land where you want them to!

CSM have the most diverse selection for their troops choice. Nearly all of them is packing the greatest standard equipment, and are the best people for their role!

Zerkers - they make ork mobs cry with how many dice they roll!

Noisy Rockers - Can pump out some of the most amount of fire at 24" than any other unit in the game.

Pus Balls - One of thee most durable units in the game.

Vanilla - Can be kited out for what ever role they need to be, thanks to Icons.

A CSM general has, at his disposal, troop units who have boosts to an already awesome stat line, what more could you want? Lash...of course, and sure why not some Plasma Cannons...but 10 zerkers, and plague marines, AND noise marines will win you the game anyway, so the rest is just fluff.

I'd disagree. Termicide is useful in a one-dimensional sort of way, but there's so many other things in the Elite slots that are more useful, particularly a well-equipped Terminator squad!

The Obliterators are nice, but they're too easily quashed by anti-tank weapons and outflanking units, as well as being premium-priced. I'd take them if I was planning on a large drop with lots of Terminators and Lesser Daemons, but otherwise Havocs are a better choice. Incidentally they also make a nice body-guard unit for Typhus and Abbadon.

Nurglitch wrote:I'd disagree. Termicide is useful in a one-dimensional sort of way, but there's so many other things in the Elite slots that are more useful, particularly a well-equipped Terminator squad!

What is your preferred Terminator squad loadout?

Four Chaos Terminators w/four Powerfists, one Chainfist, four Twin-Linked Bolters, and one Reaper Autocannon, Icon of Chaos Glory
One Chaos Terminator Champion w/Power Weapon, Twin-Linked Bolter.

I have my anti-vehicle in Havocs and Land Raiders, so by the time the Terminators land I want something to shoot up units that have either been dismounted, or that would be resistant to Lascannons, Autocannons, and Missile Launchers. Anti-tank is work for Chosen squads who also act as forward spotters for the Terminator squad. I really do prefer a squad of Melta-wielding Chosen since they can continue shooting the Meltas after the first turn: Combi-Meltas have frustrated the heck out of me when they miss and I'm left without anti-tank.

Don't get me wrong, the Termicide units can kill a tank when they land, but that'll be T2+, and they won't get a second shot. I want to start knocking over tanks and vehicles on T1. They just don't fit with the strategy I currently prefer.

I used to think Oblits may have been a necessary evil, because they are the only reliable unit in the codex to pack Plasma Cannons and/or Multi-Meltas, but I've seen this is untrue. For example, Raptors have the same effective melta radius as Deepstriking Obliterators. I'd also say most people interpret the Dreadnoughts Fire Frenzy rule incorrectly: RAW, he basically picks targets infront of him.

DarkHound wrote:I used to think Oblits may have been a necessary evil, because they are the only reliable unit in the codex to pack Plasma Cannons and/or Multi-Meltas, but I've seen this is untrue.

It seems like the next question to ask then is, "how important are Multi-Meltas or Plasma Cannons?"

How important is it to take down Landraiders, then the Terminators inside?

DarkHound wrote:How important is it to take down Landraiders, then the Terminators inside?

Well said. I guess I was thinking more do you need Multi-Melta/Plasma Cannon or can you get by with Meltaguns/Plasmaguns instead?

Unlike Codex Marines we don't have alot of units with the Heavies but we can more then make up for that in the special weapon category.

Yup. Take a unit of Termicide, 105 points for three Melta Shots. You can take a unit of five Chosen with three actual Melta Guns for the same price.

Or take a unit of two Obliterators. You can take a unit of five Havocs with four Melta Guns and a Rhino for the same price. Same likelihood of causing a Melta hit, greater potential number of Melta hits, more mobility and protection, more effective in an assault, and you can make them out of stock Chaos Space Marines. Of course you're trading off Sv2+, Powerfists, Fearless, Deep Strike, Iv5+, and Obliterator weapons, but that's the game, choosing a particular batch of trade-offs.

I don't think they're required to make a good competitive list, they're just good units at popping the one thing everyone hates; high armor targets. I like obliterators for their versatility, even if they do die easily most of the time. They're effective, reliable, and they have a pletora of weapons to choose from. That being said, I do agree with the assessment that Chosen are damn good for the same role, and they are more survivable (tin can ftw). Plus in CC they will probably kill something before they die. Termicide is effective, but I think its not entirely reliable in all games. A poor scatter can lose you the unit, and even with an icon, it might not put you close enough, or in the arc you want (like side/back for battlewagons).

I think you can make a perfectly viable list without either. I tend to agree that the power of the chaos legions is in their troop choices and the versatility of their basic units. Most of the bigger tourney lists don't use much more than some HQ's, lots of troops, and some heavies. I'm a big fan of defilers and vindicators personally, one shoting full squads of termis with a vindi never ceases to bring a smile to my face

Zid wrote:Most of the bigger tourney lists don't use much more than some HQ's, lots of troops, and some heavies. I'm a big fan of defilers and vindicators personally, one shoting full squads of termis with a vindi never ceases to bring a smile to my face

Yeah thats basically my current 1.5k list right now.
What I'm running into is where to spend the points to bump it up to 2k. I already have 5 CSM squads and 2 Defilers. Sure I could make it 6/3 but I'm tempted to run with something different instead. Hence my looking into Possessed, Lesser Daemons or non-Termicide Terminators.

Chaos can't make a competitive list. They can pretend to make a competitive list, but that's not the same.

For my Chaos army I'm going to try having my HS as follows:

3x predator, AC turret, Lascannon Sponsons, Havoc Missile Launcher.

I think each pred comes out to 145, which is less than two obliterators, but for anti-vehicle can fire two lascannons, plus an autocannon, and for anti infantry the havoc can put down a good number of wounds, in addition to 4 high-str shots from the main guns.

It doesn't have some of the other options that are nice from obliterators (twin-linked plasma guns, multi-meltas, plasma cannons) but I think it is more durable, and almost as versatile.

@OP:
Chaos doesn't 'need' oblits/termicides to be competitive.
It's only that there is a lack of juicy alternative options that make them show up so much.

In addition, oblits fit alot of playstyles by virtue of their swiss army knife background.
----------------------

@Nurglitch:
Lawl, basically you have Spiky Smurf terminator wanna-bes.
Not saying it's bad, but not very 'chaosy' to me.

Nurglitch wrote:
The Obliterators are nice, but they're too easily quashed by anti-tank weapons and outflanking units, as well as being premium-priced. I'd take them if I was planning on a large drop with lots of Terminators and Lesser Daemons, but otherwise Havocs are a better choice. Incidentally they also make a nice body-guard unit for Typhus and Abbadon.

I have always played with obliterators in my HS slot and they have always been my MVP. MM and TL PG is just win with the meta game right now. Obliterators have much more versatility than havocs and they are more resilient too.
@Willydstyle
I will never take a predator over a squad of 2 obliterators. Obliterators can hide predators cant. Obliterators can DS predators cant. Obliterators can move and fire their weapons. Obliterators will be in cover when shot at predator is harder to hide. On paper predators might look like the better but after playing you will see they arent.
@OP
I entered an escalation tournament last sunday and placed 3rd. The two other CSm players did not use obliterators but I used two units of 3 obliterators. One player used three squads of havocs with four lascannons each.

Termicide hate them horrible idea dont understand why people take them 105 points for 3 melta or 6 plasmagun(i like plasma better) shots isnt worth it. Reserve rolls are not consistent and that what wins tournaments. Id convert the three terminators into obliterators! I have 20 terminators and they are my benchwarmers. Going to convert 3 so i can finaly field 9 and bench my vindicator

Only exception with obliterators is point games. They are expensive and they really shine in a large unit so in smaller size games they arent very competitive.

Sanctjud:

Yeah, they were originally designed to be able to dual-use with Codex: Space Marines, so I kind of lucked out there, but there's something to be said for making an abitrary aesthetic choice and then figuring out how to make it work (in my case what made it work was replacing the Heavy Flamer with the Reaper Autocannon).

Obliterators are pretty good, but hugely vulnerable to lascannons and melta. I've never had a huge problem dealing with them. Havocs are much harder to kill, at least if you deploy correctly.

If you are making a shooting chaos army, Oblits are a must have. The ability to shoot many weapons is needed. I also never deep strike my oblits.

Terminators you can take or leave. I mostly get them so I can take a land raider in the elite slot.

I like termicides but hate oblits. Termicides are good for the reason that your opponent knows they will pop on the board but dont know when so usually spread their forces a little thinner in certain areas so they have room to kill them when needed which allows for easier shots at certain threats for me with longer range weaponry.
Oblits for me seem overused and underwhelming in most games i play maybe that has something to do with the way i deploy them but i also roll horribly for them half the time. I also dont like how easily they are killed i think if they were cheaper they might be a more viable option for me. I think the 2wounds on them is unnecessary as i ran into alot of people hitting me with lascannons or outflanking them with a hidden fist and killing them with ease anyway.

Its interesting that we've run the whole field of potential options.
+Oblits/+Termicide
+Oblits/-Termicide
-Oblits/+Termicide
-Oblits/-Termicide

I'd really like to see peoples' idea of Competitive Chaos without the layers of anti-mech that Oblits/Termicide offer.

sourclams wrote:I'd really like to see peoples' idea of Competitive Chaos without the layers of anti-mech that Oblits/Termicide offer.

My current attempt is basically CSM spamming with support. Put as many Rhino squads as you can on the board and back them up with some cheap(ish) heavies, in my case I like Defilers for the Battlecannon.

My 2000?

DP, wings.
DP, wings.
10 PM, 2meltas, Fist, PIcon, Rhino.
10 PM, 2meltas, Fist, PIcon, Rhino.
10 PM, 2flamers, Fist, PIcon, Rhino.
20 Lesser Daemons
3 Oblits
3 Oblits

Though I don't use them as much as I used to after I moved onto my next army.
Oblits are MVP's in my experience, and that's without lash.

No offense intended, but I shudder at your model count. The Lesser Daemons offer a lot of padding, but it's a 50/50 of getting them on turn 2 "Too Far".

It's rather a moot point though since you've got Oblits in there.

I agree, oblits are just to good to pass up with the abundance of mech.

Well, with a first turn move of 12", the foot print of the unit should reach 3" into the enemy deployment zone on turn 2.

I've never had a problem...

People focus on lessers means more plague marines to punish the opponent.
People focus on the PM's means more lessers to lock stuff down.
It's been a decent match.
I had doubts before hand mixing these two units which are at the extremes of the durability scale...but it's been a wild ride.

Sanctjud wrote:
3 Oblits
3 Oblits

Any reason you run 2x3 instead of 3x2?

Yes my view is skewed a little...I used to use at least 3 of them in every game. I used the cheesy Slaan DP, PM, and Oblits from the day I got the codex, but it got REALLY old REALLY fast. And sure no one could beat it then, idk if they can now, it was just so boring. So as far as Oblits being needed in competitive lists, my answer is still no.

Yes they offer alot of options from anti tank to great anti heavy infantry. To me they offer good fire power, and a great way to soak up your opponents anti tank fire for a turn or 2. But for me they never performed as well as i want them to. I still feel that its really all about your style and your tactics. But I still don't think they are NEEDED, simply the best and most feared unit for their job.

rlsquared2 wrote:

-Obliterators have much more versatility than havocs and they are more resilient too.

-I will never take a predator over a squad of 2 obliterators. Obliterators can hide predators cant. Obliterators can DS predators cant. Obliterators can move and fire their weapons. Obliterators will be in cover when shot at predator is harder to hide. On paper predators might look like the better but after playing you will see they arent.

-I entered an escalation tournament last sunday and placed 3rd. The two other CSm players did not use obliterators but I used two units of 3 obliterators. One player used three squads of havocs with four lascannons each.

-Havocs are better at their assigned job (ex light transports) for far cheaper. Theyre also much more resilient than obliterators. Anything shooting them at a range is going to smash the oblits, but only kill one 15 point marine.

-Predators dont need to hide from long range fire. They can take the abuse with AV13.

If youre going to list advantages, list both. Preds are cheaper. They get far more shots. Theyre far harder to destroy than oblits (lascannon: Oblits ~40%, Pred 7%). They can also move faster. I just won a game because my predator can move 12" and contested my home objective while I had my opponent's.

Both have advantages, but Oblits certainly are not flat out better than them (I would easily take a pred over an oblit).

-4 lascannon havocs (any lascannon havocs) are a bad choice.

I'm still going with yes. IMO Obliterators have much better flexibility and survivability in 5th Ed. than Predators and Havocs. There is usually plenty of cover and they lose nothing in the way of firepower when moving every turn.

I used to field 2x3 but have settled down to 2x2 so I can field more Troops. May be going back to 2x3 or add Termicide because I am feeling that loss of anti-tank already.

- Blackbone

@minigun762:

Because I modeled them as two distinct squads of three.
I don’t want that additional kill point.
If you arrange the bases touching 2 others you get the nurgle symbol.

3x2 gives you more flexibility with targets, but 2x3 has done well enough for me, though I don’t have a reason at this moment why it would be better…maybe it’s a concentration if fire that works for me.

@Night Lords:
-Preds: yea, but they, like the oblits can die from one shot…so they will be seeking cover, in addition, their side armor is pretty wide. I don’t remember the last time the front armor was the only option to destroy them…

-Agreed on both points for havocs.

Oblits are purely a swiss army knife, able to support anything at a given time, though you pay for it.
Havocs are great for maximum output.
Preds are good for specializing.
Vindi: with the all-comer ordinance, balanced by range and singleminded ness.
Defiler: somewhat opposite to the vindi by being all over the place. A swiss army knife of a different taste .

The survivability of obliterators is a myth.

People don't go on and on about the survivability of terminators, because honestly they're not that durable either.

Guess what, you pay more points per wound for an obliterator than you do for a terminator, and on top of that you are vulnerable to ID.

Many people pack their armies to the gills with melta weapons. Against most vehicles those melta weapons need to close to half range to be effective. Against obliterators a multimelta land speeder can sit comfortably at 24" and have a very decent chance of popping an obliterator with each shot.

One of the points about the survivability of Obliterators is that early in the game, if you start them on the board, the only stuff that'll have them in range will be anti-tank weapons. There's not many anti-infantry weapons with a 48" range.

@willydstyle:
Sit in cover = profit.
At least for me.
I don't know ID is something you just have to live with when you get to use something as awesome-sauce as the SwissArmyKnifeliterators.

As obliterators already have a 5+ invulnerable cover does not increase their survivability by a large degree. It is significant, but it's not significant enough to make them more survivable than a predator against most high-str AP2 weapons.

With all the outflanking and "suprise -zeks!" units out and about these days in so many armies, Havocs can be killed rather quickly. Any turn for them spent in CC is a turn wasted for that unit (and they'll probably get rocked too).

Oblits are by no means a "ZOMG!" kinda unit. They're a nuisance for your enemy. "Well I can pop some rhinos with all those zerkers and marines in them or attempt to down some oblits..." Either way your opponent is screwed. Shots spent on oblits mean your troops get into position to put foot to ass. Shots spent on your troops mean your Oblits get closer and stop your opponents spear head.

Also Oblits win over Havocs b/c of Relentless. Always on the go and always dishing out some hate down range.

/shrug.
Preds and oblits are there for different reasons though.
From what I've seen:

Oblits prized weapons are the plasma cannon and multi-melta.
Preds I've seen are the AC/LC variety and the dakka varient.

You pay for the flexibility of hte oblits... simple as that.
While you tailor to what you need/want with preds.

I've sat in cover with oblits and thrown rhinos with plague marines and daemon princes at my opponents... at least that makes them torn between those two elements.

Those weapons that inconvience the pred are pretty lethal to the oblits, but I do like the black and whitness of death or alive, instead a of a pred sitting around not doing anything for a turn, it's not terminal, but I just have no need of it at the moment.

In addition, Oblits are 1 of 2 unique choices to chaos in the hvy support section, so generally for me, it's a choice between the Obliterator and the Defiler.

But the pred layout that I posted earlier has both effectiveness at anti-mech, anti-infantry, durability, and is more cost efficient.

I do agree that just running predators for HS makes it feel like you might as well play loyalist, but since they took away most of the really good stuff that made Chaos unique with this last codex... well what can we do? Plague marines, berzerkers and obliterators is pretty much all that separates us from guys who don't wear spikes.

willydstyle wrote:
I do agree that just running predators for HS makes it feel like you might as well play loyalist, but since they took away most of the really good stuff that made Chaos unique with this last codex... well what can we do? Plague marines, berzerkers and obliterators is pretty much all that separates us from guys who don't wear spikes.

Sad but true.

EDIT: And no, Summoned Lesser and Greater Crap does not count.

... well what can we do? Plague marines, berzerkers and obliterators is pretty much all that separates us from guys who don't wear spikes.

& tey R the WiN!
________________________

3x predator, AC turret, Lascannon Sponsons, Havoc Missile Launcher.

(With respect to one pred vs. 2 oblits).
Anti-infantry: it depends on the unit really... the plasma cannon on the oblit does ANY infantry, in addition, the 2 blast templates worth is brutal with the new rules on their resolution.
Anti-tank, the AC/LC is best at transport popping, due to the Ap1 and 2D6, the oblits have the option for taking out heavier tanks.
Durability: it's all relative here.
Cost Efficient, by a handful of points...a mile or nothing for some.

At the end of the day, they still fulfill 2 similar but different roles...a direct comparison will fail IMO. I just depends on what your list needs and how you play.
At the very least preds are static if you want maximum output, while Oblits are a bit more dynamic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@A-P:
Not sure what you are suggesting in that last part, but lesser daemons have earned a place in my lists...though the Greater Daemon has not been too hot for me, though others had better.

bd1085 wrote:With all the outflanking and "suprise -zeks!" units out and about these days in so many armies, Havocs can be killed rather quickly. Any turn for them spent in CC is a turn wasted for that unit (and they'll probably get rocked too).

Oblits are by no means a "ZOMG!" kinda unit. They're a nuisance for your enemy. "Well I can pop some rhinos with all those zerkers and marines in them or attempt to down some oblits..." Either way your opponent is screwed. Shots spent on oblits mean your troops get into position to put foot to ass. Shots spent on your troops mean your Oblits get closer and stop your opponents spear head.

Also Oblits win over Havocs b/c of Relentless. Always on the go and always dishing out some hate down range.

I can change this whole post around:

-----
With all the outflanking and "suprise -zeks!" units out and about these days in so many armies, Oblits can be killed even easier than before. Any turn for them spent in CC is a turn wasted for that unit (and they'll probably get rocked too).

Predators are by no means a "ZOMG!" kinda unit. They're a nuisance for your enemy. "Well I can pop some rhinos with all those zerkers and marines in them or attempt to down some preds..." Either way your opponent is screwed. Shots spent on preds mean your troops get into position to put foot to ass. Shots spent on your troops mean your predators get to shoot 4 high strength shots next turn. (Its funny because preds are ~33% less likely to die to long range fire than oblits)

Also Havocs win over Oblits b/c of cost, durability, fire output, better CC and reliability. Always popping transports each turn and dishing out some hate down range.
----

Speaking to the distinction between Marines who wear spikes and Marines who don't, I'd say that Chaos Marines are well-distinguished from their Loyalist brethren. When I started back into the game I decided to play dual Blood Angels/Chaos Space Marines, designing an army that would let me field two nigh-equivalent lists.

It turns out that And They Shall Know No Fear and Combat Squads makes an incredible difference. Even moreso when the new Codex: Space Marines book came out, where Combat Tactics made another big distinction.

You can see this yourself by designing an army that can be fielded using both Chaos Space Marinea and Space Marine lists. They behave very differently and I'm very happy with that.

Mind you, I now have a dedicated Space Marine army and a dedicated Chaos Space Marine army, but I'm glad that the initial aesthetic choice forced me to learn the differences between the two books.

@Night Lords:
At least with the outflanking stuff, the oblits can deploy on the sides and make their way (slowly) to the center and actually move away from the sides.

Actually... anything hanging out on the flanks would be screwed either way.
Target saturation works with either.
Both deal damage best to different units.

In essense, you are just showing us that they are both functional.

@Nurglitch:
I have both too... though both have a Nurgle Theme to them.

Mech Plague marine/DP/Oblits for CSM.
All Bikers/Assault termies for the SM.

So...quite different and quite similar at the same time. There is no doubt that CSM joes are more at home in the thick of it while the loyalist prefer to shoot it dead.

But when you look at it:
10 Havocs, 4 MLs
10 Devs, 4 MLs
Their primary purpose is the same and since this is a result of 'spiky marine' comment, it's all based on looks......you have 10 meqs loaded up with the same 4 weapons...they look the same. (I can't stress enough that this part is just based on my opinions of how they look, and getting off topic sadly, my bad )

Yep, that's what I get for leaping before I look. Ignore me.

The strength IMHO in Havocs is that they can take EITHER special or heavy weapons. As far as being scared of Outflanking units, sure its something to keep in mind when deploying, but why worry about it too much? Either deploy your Havocs with a supporting unit, or don't stick them over to the side! And really how big of a deal is it? Your opponent has 1 unit that is going to come on the board as early as turn 2 so that they can kill 1 unit?! Sure its an equal trade, but in the end, while your Havocs may be gone, your opponent has just wasted one of their units taking them out, and are now stuck on that side of the board.

I can do without Termicides as they really only have one function to kill AV14 like land raiders and backfield AV14 like Russes and not every list has these.

Obliterators I find it very hard to do without at least 1 unit of 2 or 3 as a heavy choice as they are a swiss army knife unit that provides las cannons for shooting transports early game, multimeltas for killing vehicles that come close, plasma cannons for killing hard infantry like terminators or space marines (even better with lash). They do get insta killed by Strength 8 + but if you deploy in cover you get a cover save and if they shoot your obliterators they are not shooting Rhinos and other vehicles.

I tend to mix up my heavies. One unit of 2-3 Obliterators, A Possessed Vindicator and a Possesed Land raider which carries either terminators or berserkers is my usual.

I'd add that nothing forces you to take special weapons or Heavy Weapons, and that mixing them in the squad can give you the advantages of both, for a premium.

Havocs are good at one thing; light armor popping. Autocannons and ML's work wonders, and you can give em a swamp of wounds. HOWEVER, the main issue I have with havocs is cost, and the lack of plasma cannons. If you could take havocs w/ PC's I'd probably run them over oblits everytime. But as it is, havocs are expensive for what they do, and being as lascannons aren't the best thing for AV 14, I find I only really run them with AC's to pop rhinos, chimeras, and maybe the occassional wave serpent.

As for oblits survivability, it sucks. Like others said, they are easily taken down by anti-vehicle stuff, and most people will focus on them right off if they see DP's on the board. Even in cover thats a 50% chance to lose a 75 point model to one shot, which can be brutal. Combined with things like leman russ executioners who can lob 20 billion plasmacannons and probably wipe out oblits in 1 volley, they aren't as good as they once were. The biggest issue I've seen of late is against 'Nids, trygons and the like make hell on things like oblits.

Predators are a good choice I think in some games, but personally I don't like to run them. 140+ points for a good tank popper, that can get shaken/stunned, and only has good armor in the frontal arc is a bit much for me to swallow. Combined with the fact you can't really move anywhere because then you can only shoot 1 gun kinda guts their effectiveness. 40k seems to be all about mobility anymore, and having to stand still to get the most out of something is rarely a good thing.

The answer is: MOOR TRUUPS!!!
Drown them in Scoring Bodies and scoring special weapon/close combat weapon wielders.....IN METAL BOXES!!!

Sanctjud wrote:The answer is: MOOR TRUUPS!!!
Drown them in Scoring Bodies and scoring special weapon/close combat weapon wielders.....IN METAL BOXES!!!

Tin can spam FTW! follow the space wolves lead ROWR!

An interesting thing about Lascannons is that they aren't the best thing for AV14 all the time, but they are the best thing for AV14 on Turn 1. If you can slow down, or even immobilize a Land Raider full of Loyalist Goons, interdict some artillery or squadron of Leman Russes, or ensure the fiery death of a Rhino or squadron of Land Speeders, then the premium will start paying itself off with dividends.

After all, nothing is saying that you can't take two Lascannons, and two Melta Guns...

The lack of Plasma Cannons is a bit of a downer, but I've come to love Autocannons for their extra range and reliability (both the extra shot and the lack of Gets Hot!). I do miss their destructiveness against infantry, but they're a better anti-vehicle and monster weapon. They curiously match their fluff.

I think that's the reason why people like the Plasma Cannons on Obliterators so much: because they also have Lascannons to crack people out of their metal coffins first. But five Havocs with four Autocannons will cost 5pts more, produce 4x as many shots (2x shots with Missile Launchers), and then ladle that fire onto troops that will probably have cover anyways because they're camping the crater that was their metal box.

I miss tank hunting Autocannons...ahh the good old days when my havocs were 'must haves'.
/sob.

I kind of prefer an army list that has several live options per slot rather than one "must-have" in any slot. "Must-haves" make for a dull game, because everyone's army looks the same!

Well... Infiltrating Havocs were popular too, and you had either/or, but not both... so there was much variety in the past
But this was 3.5 Dex where cookie cutting/internet lists were IMO rare...

Sanctjud wrote:Well... Infiltrating Havocs were popular too, and you had either/or, but not both... so there was much variety in the past
But this was 3.5 Dex where cookie cutting/internet lists were IMO rare...

Cuz you had legions, and legions were rad... now we have "ZOMG I'M NURGLKHORNNESHIMARINES LOLZ!"

I miss legions :( Or at least fluffy rules like spiky tanks :(

Nurglitch wrote:
I think that's the reason why people like the Plasma Cannons on Obliterators so much: because they also have Lascannons to crack people out of their metal coffins first. But five Havocs with four Autocannons will cost 5pts more, produce 4x as many shots (2x shots with Missile Launchers), and then ladle that fire onto troops that will probably have cover anyways because they're camping the crater that was their metal box.

With easy access to squads with 2+ Plasmaguns or Meltaguns, are we really hurting for AP2 firepower?

Plasma Cannons are nice but I get the sense from alot of people that they're mandatory choices and if you're not running PC, you're at a significant disadvantage and I just don't see how this is true.

If you factor in the +12" that either an Autocannon or Missile Launcher has, it seems that against the majority of targets you're likely to break even on killing.

I've been playing a number of games vs. one of my main opponents, who is working on getting better with CSM. I have seen obliterators under perform over and over again.

As someone who doesn't play a CSM list, I'm not worried at all when I see obliterators deployed. I can discount them, as being only a minor threat compared to what else is in the chaos army.

For shooting, Oblits like to stay 36-48" away, perfect for me to retaliate with my lascannons, making them effectively one wound, 4 or 5+ save models. Why would I shoot anything else out there? They take an HS slot, which will usually mean less tanks to shoot at, resulting in free str 8-9 guns. If there happens to be a saturation of HS (oblits, defiler, defiler?) that means that there's not enough points in troops, and I can usually end the game right there.

In melee, Their small squad size usually means I don't even need to reach down to the PF before they get taken down by having to make numerous saves.
(Marines can fire bolt pistols + special, charge, hit first, and kill the oblit(s) with decent reliability.)

In their support, they do hold the rare ability to reposition and maintain full fire, which I have seen used effectively vs. Fast moving transports which evade static defenders.

just a different perspective for you, 'cause it seems like everyone here is playing 'as' the oblits, not against them.

Iboshi2 wrote:
just a different perspective for you, 'cause it seems like everyone here is playing 'as' the oblits, not against them.

That is useful I think. Its one thing to approach it from the perspective of using the units but its quite another to discuss it from the other side of the table.

For your money, what would have been scarier then Oblits?

Oblits are pretty much necessary, for most of the reasons identified. They provide flexible firepower, particularly multiple mobile lascannons in a single slot, at a decent price. Moving and firing is a key consideration, both for reducing the impact of cover to the enemy’s benefit, and for maximizing it for yourself. A 4+ cover is not reliable, but certainly better than standing in the open. And with the use of hills, ruins and buildings with intact walls, and friendly vehicles (particularly Rhinos on turn 1) you can often hide them entirely from at least SOME, if not all, of your opponent’s lascannons and multimeltas, while still getting all their own shots off . Havocs and Predators can’t do this.

Termicide is less compulsory, IME, but within the tournament metagame of multiple competitive lists using AV14 vehicles as linchpins, they become an important tool. If you don't face many of those armies in your area, it's not a critical component of a successful list.

I'm pretty sure Havocs can stand in cover...

Nurglitch wrote:I'm pretty sure Havocs can stand in cover...

But they can't move and fire to mitigate the effects of LoS blocking terrain.

Granted S&P means that you don't move far enough some times, a single wall or building won't leave the obliterators completely without effect.

Havocs can certainly move and fire. They just can't do that with Heavy Weapons. They have the options of Plasma Guns, Flamers, and Melta Guns.

If a single wall or building could block line of sight to a target unit, then being able to shuffle up to 6" left or right isn't going to help much. Think about it, suppose that your opponent knows you have Havocs and they're all armed with Heavy Weapons, and they're poorly positions so they only have a narrow corridor of fire. They can just move their units out of that corridor of fire, right? If the Obliterators were likewise poorly positioned they could readjust the breadth of their corridor of fire, right, so your opponent can't move out of it so easily. So why couldn't your opponent just move their unit out of the Obliterators' potential corridors of fire, as well as their actual corridors of fire?

Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

Nurglitch wrote:
Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

This is where a Predator has an advantage because its Rhino is built in so you don't need to spend the extra points and extra KP on buying it a transport. If (for whatever reason) it has a bad LOS, it can simply pack up, move 12" (probably pop smoke) and wait to fire until next turn.

Nurglitch wrote:I'm pretty sure Havocs can stand in cover...

I know right. An even smaller model not getting cover?

Maybe it's just a coincidence, but I always get these really insane arguments from the pure "Obliterators are necessary crowd". I mean, look at what weve had in this topic already: people saying that theyre more resilient, one guy making a few paragraphs of advantages that are the exact same for predators and havocs, havocs sucking in CC (even though theyre just as good as CSM) yet obliterators being good, havocs not being able to hide behind rhinos but oblits can...the list goes on.

Theyre all good. In my opinion a combination of cheaper units that are better at what they do is the better route, but if you like obliterators theres nothing wrong with that. Just dont slander the other options with ridiculous "facts". That's partly the reason oblits are the only things considered - because thats all you hear on the internet.

minigun:

Ah, but can the Predator, when it is Stunned or Shaken, disembark from its own hull and still shoot?

minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:
Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

This is where a Predator has an advantage because its Rhino is built in so you don't need to spend the extra points and extra KP on buying it a transport. If (for whatever reason) it has a bad LOS, it can simply pack up, move 12" (probably pop smoke) and wait to fire until next turn.

Actually, a 35 point rhino is a huge advantage. I move my empty havoc rhino up front giving my other rhinos 4+ cover. If my opponent shoots at that rhino, hes shooting at an empty one. If he shoots at the ones behind, they get a 4+ save, and even if they blow up, my squad just goes into the rhino even further ahead and keeps on trekking up the board.

No other unit other than havocs can provide a rhino that can do this. Possessed require it and all troops require it. Maybe infiltrating chosen but theyre not that great in my opinion.

Ive actually been debating dropping one of two preds and having a second havoc squad with yet another rhino, as the first has proven to be pretty amazing. This squad would be more of a heavy weapons team (moreso than autocannons), maybe something like 2 missles and 2 lascannons. Its expensive, but Ive been debating trying it out.

Nurglitch wrote:Havocs can certainly move and fire. They just can't do that with Heavy Weapons. They have the options of Plasma Guns, Flamers, and Melta Guns.

Which is great, if you're using them with specials. I get special weapons in my Troops and Elite units, and need more range from my HS.

Nurglitch wrote:If a single wall or building could block line of sight to a target unit, then being able to shuffle up to 6" left or right isn't going to help much. Think about it, suppose that your opponent knows you have Havocs and they're all armed with Heavy Weapons, and they're poorly positions so they only have a narrow corridor of fire. They can just move their units out of that corridor of fire, right? If the Obliterators were likewise poorly positioned they could readjust the breadth of their corridor of fire, right, so your opponent can't move out of it so easily. So why couldn't your opponent just move their unit out of the Obliterators' potential corridors of fire, as well as their actual corridors of fire?

My experiences with them and terrain on several dozen different tables and terrain sets over the past three years show that the way you are presenting these situations is not in line with the reality of play, at the Baltimore GTs, Adepticon, or any store game, or convention tournament I have attended. By that I mean that I understand your point, but you are minimizing a very real factor which matters quite a bit and comes up frequently in games. In 5th edition the ability to move your heavy weapons a few inches before firing them has gained even more impact, due to true LOS. Even getting a sliver of your opponent’s model into LOS now means it can be destroyed, albeit with a cover save. The defensive advantage is even greater.

Nurglitch wrote:Havocs, on the other hand, can have a Rhino, which gives them real mobility to move them into good positions, or to ensure that they can be re-positioned.

Abolutely, and it's a great tool. But if you deploy a Rhino in front of your heavy weapon-equipped Havocs, and your opponent Immobilizes, Stuns, or Wrecks it on turn one, you lose a turn of shooting. If the same thing happens to Oblits, they just move on top of or around the edge of the wreck, and fire anyway.


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Night Lords wrote:Actually, a 35 point rhino is a huge advantage. I move my empty havoc rhino up front giving my other rhinos 4+ cover. If my opponent shoots at that rhino, hes shooting at an empty one. If he shoots at the ones behind, they get a 4+ save, and even if they blow up, my squad just goes into the rhino even further ahead and keeps on trekking up the board.

No other unit other than havocs can provide a rhino that can do this. Possessed require it and all troops require it. Maybe infiltrating chosen but theyre not that great in my opinion.

Ive actually been debating dropping one of two preds and having a second havoc squad with yet another rhino, as the first has proven to be pretty amazing. This squad would be more of a heavy weapons team (moreso than autocannons), maybe something like 2 missles and 2 lascannons. Its expensive, but Ive been debating trying it out.

I like the way you think, and have been toying with this idea as well. I really like my Havoc squad, and use it quite a bit. It just doesn’t give me the flexibility or mobility that I find I need and get from Oblits.

Mannahnin:

You are aware that you can combine special weapons and Heavy weapons in the same squad, right? They can also move and fire with the Bolters from the other members of the squad you can purchase (they don't just catch bullets...), and the Aspiring Champion can bring along a Combi-weapon. Moving does not have to neuter a Havoc squad.

Secondly, you miss my point about lines of sight. Yes, maybe you can and have moved 2" with Obliterators that allowed you to see a sliver of a tank and destroy it. That's not the point. My point is this: if your opponent can move out of your line of sight, and wants to move out of line of sight, and they're aware that the 5th edition line of sight rules will give your Obliterators a line of sight if some sliver of the hull is visible, then they can move out of line of sight of Obliterators, as well as out of line of sight of Havocs.

I agree with you, moving out of a line of sight is easier to do with Havocs than with Obliterators. Yes, those extra two and half degrees can make a difference, but knowing these things, knowing that all the Obliterators need to do is move 1" to their right and you're risking a Lascannon shot to the side armour, simply changes the value you associate with breaking lines of sight.

I mean I've played in tournaments (WFB, but still), and we're all familiar with the people who show up and that try to do something (say, charging) which doesn't work out because they're not familiar enough with exactly how far 8" looks on the field, that their enemy is just out of range, or they didn't allocate enough firepower to dispose of dangerous enemy units because they decided to play the odds instead of the priorities.

Maybe you feel that I'm minimizing the fact that some people suck at this game, but the utility in a unit does not lie with the fact that your opponent will occasionally be one of those people.

Nurglitch wrote:minigun:

Ah, but can the Predator, when it is Stunned or Shaken, disembark from its own hull and still shoot?

Doesn't shaken/stunned stop the squad from shooting as well? Even if it doesn't, disembarking will cost you a round of fire from your heavies.

Nurglitch wrote:You are aware that you can combine special weapons and Heavy weapons in the same squad, right? They can also move and fire with the Bolters from the other members of the squad you can purchase (they don't just catch bullets...), and the Aspiring Champion can bring along a Combi-weapon. Moving does not have to neuter a Havoc squad.

As I previously stated, having my special weapon needs adequately met elsewhere in the army, I need long-ranged capability from my HS. I can absolutely see the value of special weapon-equipped Havocs, but they do not meet the needs I find I have to fill against fast-moving and/or long-ranged enemy armies.

If the Havoc squad needs to fire at something farther than 18” away, moving does indeed neuter the Havoc squad.

Nurglitch wrote:Secondly, you miss my point about lines of sight. Yes, maybe you can and have moved 2" with Obliterators that allowed you to see a sliver of a tank and destroy it. That's not the point. My point is this: if your opponent can move out of your line of sight, and wants to move out of line of sight, and they're aware that the 5th edition line of sight rules will give your Obliterators a line of sight if some sliver of the hull is visible, then they can move out of line of sight of Obliterators, as well as out of line of sight of Havocs.

This is simply untrue. Whether he can get out of the potential LOS of the Oblits is a matter of the physical size of the terrain feature and the targeted unit. The Oblits have a substantially larger range of possible fire angles on any given turn than a unit of Havocs with heavy weapons does. While you can (and I sometimes do) spread out the Havocs to cover more angles, you sometimes wind up only being able to get one or two of the missile weapons into range or LOS, not the whole squad. Further, you cannot maximize the spread of the unit as much as you would like, as you almost always want to keep the heavy weapons within a chain, not separated by bullet-catchers. Occasionally Oblits will wind up not being able to get all models to gain LOS on the target as well, due to an insufficient Relentless move roll, but the occurrence of this is considerably less than the rate at which a Havoc with Missile Launcher is unable to get the shot at a unit out of his LOS at the start of his movement phase.

Nurglitch wrote:Maybe you feel that I'm minimizing the fact that some people suck at this game, but the utility in a unit does not lie with the fact that your opponent will occasionally be one of those people.

I reject the argument that any part of my position is based on a lack of my opponents’ skill.



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minigun762 wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:minigun:

Ah, but can the Predator, when it is Stunned or Shaken, disembark from its own hull and still shoot?

Doesn't shaken/stunned stop the squad from shooting as well? Even if it doesn't, disembarking will cost you a round of fire from your heavies.

Exactly so.

minigun762:

Indeed, but as I keep pointing out, Havocs aren't necessarily armed with Heavy weapons.

Consider the following configuration:

10 Havocs w/Two Autocannons, two Plasma Guns

In a Rhino they can:

Produce 4 S7 shots at 48" if the Rhino doesn't move.

Produce 4 S7 shots at 12" if the Rhino moves, either from the Rhino's fire point at combat speed, or having disembarked if the Rhino has moved at cruising speed, meaning they have an effective range of 18" if they stay in the Rhino and 26" if they disembark from a skidding Rhino.

And, of course, they get all the Bolter shots once they've dismounted. Those guys can do more than catch bullets...

So yes, Shaken/Stunned damage results do indeed prevent an embarked squad from shooting, but not one that's disembarked.

So Mannahnin, you can clearly see that a squad of Havocs in a Rhino can give your Havoc squad the ability to engage a target 26" away, with Melta Guns and Plasma Guns.

Do they need to move? No, because the interesting thing about Warhammer 40k is that it tends to hold true to the dictum that if you can shoot them, they can shoot you. If you have Havocs then presumably you have other units in an army. That's my point, if they can avoid Havocs, then they can avoid Obliterators. Indeed, if they can avoid Havocs then they can avoid the entire army - but who cares? If they're not in line of sight to your army then they can't shoot, and its not like there's any skimmers that are also assault vehicles.

If you reject any argument that your own position is based on your then rejoice, because my argument is that the utility you're ascribing to Obliterators is not the result of your opponent's inability, but the fact that you predicate it on your opponents' mistakes. Surely you understand the difference.

Incidentally, can you actually compose posts, or are you limited to quote-cutting?

Nurglitch wrote:Do they need to move? No, because the interesting thing about Warhammer 40k is that it tends to hold true to the dictum that if you can shoot them, they can shoot you. If you have Havocs then presumably you have other units in an army. That's my point, if they can avoid Havocs, then they can avoid Obliterators.

If you are playing with LOS-blocking terrain and/or vehicles on the table, and have mobile units, you can (and with good play, increasingly will) create situations where you can hurt the enemy (or at least the bits you need to, for the mission or situation) while limiting his ability to hurt you. This can include creating situations where your stuff can see his but not vice-versa. Particularly so when vehicles are involved, as any part of a vehicle's hull is a target, but a much smaller percentage of the vehicle can draw LOS to you to shoot back. As I have already stated, it is my experience (and I suspect a mathematically-demonstrable truth) that the ability of Obliterators to move and fire allows them to cover a wider range of angles and hit a larger number of potential targets then a squad of Havocs with heavy weapons.

Nurglitch wrote:Indeed, if they can avoid Havocs then they can avoid the entire army - but who cares? If they're not in line of sight to your army then they can't shoot, and its not like there's any skimmers that are also assault vehicles.

It is my experience that a player, using terrain, can reduce the amount of incoming fire from enemy weapons. And can do this to a greater extent against enemy weapons which cannot move and fire. While it is highly unlikely that an opponent can completely avoid the Havocs, it is easier for him to reduce their opportunities to hit optimal targets than it is for him to do the same against move & fire units like Obliterators.

Nurglitch wrote:If you reject any argument that your own position is based on your then rejoice, because my argument is that the utility you're ascribing to Obliterators is not the result of your opponent's inability, but the fact that you predicate it on your opponents' mistakes. Surely you understand the difference.

Certainly. But your previous post seemed to clearly imply that my opponents' inability was based on their lack of skill, rather than the physical realities of the tabletop. IME the number of places a player can hide my desired targets, the blind spots inaccessible to my Heavy Support units' fire, is smaller for Obliterators than it is for Havocs. This has consistently held true against a wide variety of armies, and a large number of players, over a large number of games, on dozens of different tables and terrain setups, in several different US states, with terrain provided by many different people. I'm sorry I never completed that tournament report from last month. But in the battle report I did complete, for one example, when my opponent dropped Drop Pods into my deployment zone, they interfered with my Havoc squad's ability to get clear shots at more desirable targets. But they impaired my Oblits to a much lesser extent, thanks to their mobility.

Nurglitch wrote:Incidentally, can you actually compose posts, or are you limited to quote-cutting?

I don't often have the time I would like to compose a whole standalone post. When I am having a detailed discussion with someone, I often find that quoting and responding directly to the points I agree or disagree with is a good way to avoid misunderstandings and be clear what point is being raised in relation to what.

Mannahnin:

Posting without quote-cutting it easy. Just compose your post the way that you normally would, and leave the quotes out. Then just bridge the paragraphs by some connecting or over-arching theme or point. Doing this is actually quicker than pressing the quote button and caIf people wonder what you're addressing in my post, they can scroll back up. Then they'll actually get the context of my post, rather than a handful of selectively edited quotes.

Then you would understand that I am not arguing that Obliterators aren't able to add potential lines of sight to their actual (static) lines of sight. Of course they can. As you say its "mathematically-demonstrable". My point is that these additional lines of sight are moot, since I was talking about a Havoc squad in general and not just a Havoc squad with Heavy Weapons.

If you believe that one of my previous posts clearly implied that my point related to a lack of skill among your opponents, rather than to your opponents' mistakes, then I don't know how to make my point clear to you. I can't make you see the forest if you're fixated on trees.

So yeah, maybe your Havoc squad was static. Not all Havoc squads are static. I've pointed out a configuration that is not static, and that even without a Rhino is more mobile than an equivalent pointed Obliterator unit. I believe that in trying to address each of my sub-points separately you managed to miss both the context (all Havocs, not just static Havocs), and my point.

Which, of course, if why I would prefer it if you didn't quote-cut, because it impedes communication rather than facilitates it.

My havocs are completely static, a lot of the time not moving all game, and Ive never had trouble. I even play on terrain heavy boards. They can always shoot main firing lanes and protect my rhinos, so its not really a big deal.

Well, 1/3 of the deployments MAKE you move your havocs

Sanctjud wrote:Well, 1/3 of the deployments MAKE you move your havocs

I was about to say that. Dawn of War cripples havocs.


I am surprised at everyone's experiences with oblits. Everyone talks about how easy they are to kill. That has not been my experience. In fact, I find them very difficult to kill.

Here is how you play Oblits:
#1. Always start on the board, never deep strike.
#2. Hide them behind a land raider/rhino or a piece of LOS blocking terrain that you can easily get out from behind even if you roll badly on the slow and purposeful roll.
#3. When it is your turn, move out from behind cover and shoot everything that has an AP2, strength 8+ weapon.
#4. Suffer a few casualties from what little AP2 Strength 8+ shooting your opponent has left.
#5. Next turn finish off anything that has a Strength 8+ AP2 weapon.
#6. Laugh since they can't kill your oblits.


If you really take a look at army lists, there is very little long-range, strength 8+, AP2 weaponry out there (Bright Lances, Lascannons, Rail Guns, etc ).

I will venture a guess that in most chaos armies the only things that they have that can kill oblits at range are Land Raiders and other oblits, and that is why oblits are necessary in a chaos army. If you opponent has oblits, you will need them to take them out.

The rest of your army can handle anything that carries a melta, so Oblits are free to do damage, and are very hard to stop.

Youve got to be kidding me. One turn, where there's bloody night fighting, cripples the havocs? If you go first you probably even wont be able to shoot, so now its 1/6. Night fighting will also reduce odds.

Move 12", get out 2", youre in position.

Sorry, not seeing it.

Night Lords wrote: Night fighting will also reduce odds.

Sorry, not seeing it.

LOL its night fighting!!!

Anyway, everyone has agreed and agreed to disagree about every possible pro and con for Preds, Oblits, and Hovocs.

At this point I wanna run 1 Pred, 1 unit of Havocs w/ AC, and 1 unit of Oblits in my next game! since each unit has a different strenght and different weakness, f*** it and throw them all together just to see what happens. Thus with all 3 I can create three different long range threats, to me I think that would work out the best, and most hilarious!

minigun762 wrote:

Iboshi2 wrote:
just a different perspective for you, 'cause it seems like everyone here is playing 'as' the oblits, not against them.

That is useful I think. Its one thing to approach it from the perspective of using the units but its quite another to discuss it from the other side of the table.

For your money, what would have been scarier then Oblits?

For my money- Khorne Bezerkers in conjunction with Glory meltas, in rhinos. The Bezerkers are just brutal vs. anything when charging, and the scoring melta squad is such a pain.

Also, I'm usually up vs. a terminator squad, which has a few combi-meltas, just to keep from getting tank shocked. They're a bother, depending on the Icon they take (Tzeentch usually)

As I said above Oblits get killed by long range strength 8+ AP2 weaponry. There is really not as much out there as you would think. Short of that, Obits are really hard to kill with 2 wounds and 2+ save.

Havocs on the other hand get killed by everything. Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers, Missile Pods and a host of other long range weaponry that Oblits shrug off.

Not only that, but havocs just do not have the flexibility in weapon options that Oblits have in a take-all-comers environment. The ability to take a host of different weapons is incredibly valuable.

I am a big fan of Oblits and nearly always take at least 1 or 2 in any given army list.

They can take on so much, they are also as tough as termies so you dont have to have them sit atteh back, you can walk them forward whiel shooting.

Exaple: I had a game against a WE army a week or so ago. My unit of 3 Oblits took out a Land Raider, 2 Rhinos, a Dread and a DP (mass plasmagun shots, lol). All the while stalking forward and takign out targets of opportunity.

I wouldn't say they are the be-all-and-end-all, as there are other units which are cheaper/better armoured/more specialised. But they definately have their place.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Obliterators don't have a place, just that they're not necessary for a competitive army.

That's what i just said.

And I agreed.

Curious, isn't it?

Billie_Joe wrote:
At this point I wanna run 1 Pred, 1 unit of Havocs w/ AC, and 1 unit of Oblits in my next game! since each unit has a different strenght and different weakness, f*** it and throw them all together just to see what happens. Thus with all 3 I can create three different long range threats, to me I think that would work out the best, and most hilarious!

You should really. Play 2-3 games with them and see what happens.

From personal experience I run Defilers or Vindicators most games for my heavies... why? because they're damn rad! Also when I wanna run my lash prince for S&G people can't bitch I'm being cheesy and doing lash spam. Plus having 3 defilers on the board makes most opponents go "wtf?" and focus fire them while my zerkers and PM's chew through their army BWA HAHA!

When i do my double vindicator madness is when I whip out havocs. They're built to blow up tin cans, which works perfect with my big ol' blasts.

As everyone said, each unit has its uses. I see Oblits as the mid-heavy armor poppers, havocs as transport poppers, and everything else is in between. Try em out and see what you like, making a competitive list doesn't mean you have to cookie cutter (tho many peeps do)

I think something to point out would be that whatever works best for Heavy Support (or Elites for that matter) really depends on what else you have in your army and what you want to do with it (or, put another way, how you plan to win with it).

After all, we're all familiar with the utility of combining a Lash of Submission with template and blast weapons, and the importance of interdicting enemy tanks while our own metal boxes are swarming up the field. The question is then, what are the other matching sets?

That's a new question, though.

Getting back to the earlier discussion-

I can, of course, write a post without using quotes from the person to whom I am responding. IME, however, I tend to find that quoting helps keep individual points from being lost in the shuffle, when multiple sub-arguments are in progress. And it’s an old habit. I think I’ve been doing it for most of the last ten years on this site. I’m sorry if you don’t find it as useful or clear as I do.

Nurglitch, at 2010/01/29 00:29:58 wrote:If you believe that one of my previous posts clearly implied that my point related to a lack of skill among your opponents, rather than to your opponents' mistakes, then I don't know how to make my point clear to you. I can't make you see the forest if you're fixated on trees.

Nurglitch, at 2010/01/28 20:53:28 wrote:I mean I've played in tournaments (WFB, but still), and we're all familiar with the people who show up and that try to do something (say, charging) which doesn't work out because they're not familiar enough with exactly how far 8" looks on the field, that their enemy is just out of range, or they didn't allocate enough firepower to dispose of dangerous enemy units because they decided to play the odds instead of the priorities.

Maybe you feel that I'm minimizing the fact that some people suck at this game, but the utility in a unit does not lie with the fact that your opponent will occasionally be one of those people.

I don’t think that comment was a useful response to what I had posted, but perhaps I simply did not express myself well enough. You seem to get the idea in the bit below:

Nurglitch wrote:Then you would understand that I am not arguing that Obliterators aren't able to add potential lines of sight to their actual (static) lines of sight. Of course they can. As you say its "mathematically-demonstrable". My point is that these additional lines of sight are moot, since I was talking about a Havoc squad in general and not just a Havoc squad with Heavy Weapons.

So yeah, maybe your Havoc squad was static. Not all Havoc squads are static. I've pointed out a configuration that is not static, and that even without a Rhino is more mobile than an equivalent pointed Obliterator unit. I believe that in trying to address each of my sub-points separately you managed to miss it.

No, I don’t think it has anything to do with the quote approach, as clearly we’re talking past each other a bit here. I know that you’re talking about Havocs in a broader sense. But I have made clear in my previous posts that I’m not. I have repeatedly stated that Havocs with special weapons do not fill the role or the need I see for a competitive CSM army.

IME CSM need long-ranged firepower from their HS. Specifically I find that with CSM I need a few units capable of killing or disabling enemy vehicles and other hard targets early, and at long range, both to cripple enemy mobility and to reduce their ability to shoot back, killing my Oblits and my transports. Havocs and Obliterators both fill this role, and I use them both. IME Obliterators provide some vital functionality which Havocs do not. Obliterators can make better use of, and better reduce enemy use of, cover and terrain. Obliterators can fire the turn they move onto the board if they are in reserve (particularly in Dawn of War, which forces me to put either unit in reserve). Obliterators also have better chances of damaging AV13 and 14 at long range for the cost, as I find lascannon-equipped havocs to be prohibitively expensive in points.

To readdress minigun’s initial post, I concur that Troops are essential for a successful competitive CSM army, but I believe that proper support is also vital. Without support units capable of killing or weakening an opponent’s mobility and shooting, our Troops can be destroyed at a distance, or isolated and eliminated piecemeal. Within the context of the tournaments and games I have played since 5th edition was released, and the armies I see on the tables and in reports, Obliterators and “termicide” squads are both very useful units. IME and from careful consideration, Obliterators offer extremely useful abilities which no other unit in the codex can duplicate. While the fact that the relative importance of a unit depends on what else is in the list is axiomatic, the utility of Obliterators is pretty close to universal. At least within the competitive environments of which I am aware.

Mannahin's arguments make a lot of sense.

IMO it is easier to be competitive with Oblits (I've never liked termicide), but not required. Oblits will suffer vs. the mirrir matchup of 5-man chosen squads with lascannons. 3 of those will plunk away at the oblits, along with any troop based lascannons and other oblits as well.

I am more and more of a fan of the 5-man chosen squad with a lascannon just for this reason.

Interesting choice. 35 is pretty steep for a lascannon, but it certainly shrugs off your opponent's long-range antitank guns. 125 gets you a lot more lascannon resistance than a pair of Oblits, for 25 less points. It's not a lot of gun for the cost, but it's taking an Elite slot rather than a heavy. Hrm.

You can always make up the difference with two Melta Guns and a Flamer. Of course, you can have a similarly configured Havoc unit for 110pts, but you don't get the Infiltrate, which is useful if you can put them up one flank of the board to hit side armour as the enemy attempts to advance, or simply put them forward as a spotter for Lesser Daemons.

You could field a five Havoc "Las-Plas" unit for 125pts.

Continuing the digression…

I experimented with Chosen a good bit when the codex first came out, in part to find a replacement for my old las/plas squads. Overall I was never able to find a combination I was happy with. I always felt I wasn’t getting enough killy for the cost. I started just with small fire support units, tried making them a bit bigger/building some assaulty capability (and of course an Icon for summoning), and again found that most of the time they were too isolated early, and got smacked or avoided. The most successful Chosen configuration I ever found was a small squad with max special weapons Outflanking in a Rhino. A mix of meltas and flamers was pretty nice for anti-tank or anti-infantry work, particularly the combination of the flamers with a timely Lash. The main problem with this unit, though, is that it tends to give up two KPs while scoring (at best) one, in Annihilation.

These recent discussions have been tempting me to try them out again, though. Maybe a squad with 2x melta, 2x plasmagun, with the idea of just doing drive-by shooting until and unless they’re forced to get out.

Nurglitch wrote:You can always make up the difference with two Melta Guns and a Flamer. Of course, you can have a similarly configured Havoc unit for 110pts, but you don't get the Infiltrate, which is useful if you can put them up one flank of the board to hit side armour as the enemy attempts to advance, or simply put them forward as a spotter for Lesser Daemons.

You could field a five Havoc "Las-Plas" unit for 125pts.

But you're missing the point that everyone else is making: Chaos needs HS for points-efficient long-range firepower. Your mixed havocs simply don't do that. I don't even like obliterators that much and I'd rather have two of them than that havoc squad.

Even the 5 man chosen with a lascannon unit is only really attractive because MSU is an inherently stronger list building mechanic, and it lets you get a lascannon into the list without having to sacrifice a HS slot or taking a full 10 man unit of chaos marines to babysit one heavy weapon. I think I'd consider a TL-lascannon dread over a lascannon chosen squad myself.

willydstyle:

Speaking of missing points, you missed mine about the difference between the Chosen squad and the two-man Obliterator Cult. The difference is two Melta Guns and a Flamer.

I've found, like Mannahnin is that one or two big units of Chosen would get destroyed early. But I also found that two or three, and Havocs behind, could support each other. That's why I'm leaning towards taking Heavy Weapons in Chaos Space Marine squads these days, because in combination with Havoc squads I can shoot up whatever tries to engage the Chosen.

Taking a Chosen squad so you can have a Lascannon is pretty inefficient though, and not just because they cost more individually, and buy Lascannons at full price.

Taking two Chosen squads so you can field four special weapons and a Heavy Weapon and an Icon is pretty good though. I've moved back to having them equipped with Plasma Guns because my Lascannons are in my Chaos Space Marine squads, and they go nicely with an Autocannon. They're about attacking vehicles (AV10-12) rather than tanks (AV13-14). As you say Chaos needs points efficient long-range firepower and Chaos Space Marines and Havocs provide it best.

It's 190ish points for a plasma gun, lascannon, and icon of glory in a csm squad. That is not particularly effective, nor points efficient. While I can appreciate it as a tactical squad that is harder to neutralize in CC, I still don't think it's very good.

1) Lascannon Chosen aren't a bad at all. Remember you also have Infiltrate and LD10 built in so you should get a good LOS setup. A way to cheapen them up is to take an Autocannon or Missile Launcher instead, it saves you enough points to buy a PG. I wonder about a AC/MG combo. 120 points and you have the option of engaging fast moving vehicles at range or killing Land Raiders up close.

2) I've heard some people talk about using a TL LC Predator with no sponsons. Its cheapish @ 105 points for a mobile TL Lascannon but it almost seems like a waste of a slot, especially in higher point games because you could easily get 2-4 Heavy weapons in that same slot depending on what else you take.

willydstyle:

Could you please elaborate on why its not particularly effective nor points efficient (also, consider the special weapon as a Melta Gun).

Oblits?

To be honest they arren't that great. I would only use 2 of the 7 weapons they have.

Termies?

Great, but I think you can have more killy assault units, like Berzerkers. These are very survivable though.

Nurglitch wrote:willydstyle:

Could you please elaborate on why its not particularly effective nor points efficient (also, consider the special weapon as a Melta Gun).

If the special weapon is a melta gun it's even worse, because the likely hood of using both a lascannon and a melta gun in the same turn are quite low. You pay close to 200 points for a single lascannon shot, albeit with a lot of wounds behind it.

The thing that's really gotten to me about Terminators lately is their inability to engage in Sweeping Advance. So they're great against stuff that they couldn't Sweep anyways (Fearless units, Walkers, vehicles), but less so against non-Fearless unit. Space Marines can actually just walk away from them, with no locking unit in place.

The 35pt lascannon in the chosen squad is pricey. For a better deal you could take a 20pt missile launcher instead. The lascannon is really only head and shoulders better than the ML vs. T-Fexes and Oblits. The lascannon is a better buy in a CSM troop squad (price wise) though many people envision their CSM having another role on the battlefield.

willydstyle wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:willydstyle:

Could you please elaborate on why its not particularly effective nor points efficient (also, consider the special weapon as a Melta Gun).

If the special weapon is a melta gun it's even worse, because the likely hood of using both a lascannon and a melta gun in the same turn are quite low. You pay close to 200 points for a single lascannon shot, albeit with a lot of wounds behind it.

I think, moreso, that you pay 20pts for a Lascannon shot, rather than, say, 35pts. What you get is flexibility. Since the flexibility is unit oriented, because as you say the likelihood of combining the Lascannon and Melta Gun shots in a single turn, redudancy has to be army-oriented. You need to take several Chaos Marine squads. Considering its only ten points more than a second Melta Gun on the same Chaos Space Marine and allows the squad to start the game addressing enemy vehicles and even tanks, that ten point premium is a bargain. The squad is also quite flexible when it comes to anti-infantry, because it still have eight Bolters.

Flexibility is great, but CSM, despite being spiky marines, don't do it as well as pure SM armies. The options on their similar units just aren't there, or, when present, they cost too much (Dreadnought and Predators, respectively). Worse still, the best generalist units don't exist at all (MM/HF Land Speeders). If you tailor your CSM list for flexibility you just end up with a bad SM list.

Danny Internets +1. Chaos can't afford to make weird mixed-bag units because they don't tend to have enough points or FOC slots to make them effective.

Danny Internets wrote:Flexibility is great, but CSM, despite being spiky marines, don't do it as well as pure SM armies. The options on their similar units just aren't there, or, when present, they cost too much (Dreadnought and Predators, respectively). Worse still, the best generalist units don't exist at all (MM/HF Land Speeders). If you tailor your CSM list for flexibility you just end up with a bad SM list.

Dreadnoughts get 3A base. They dont have venerable or assault cannons, but they still do what they need to do.

Predators are only 10 points more, and in my opinion, far superior to the SM predator (due to the nature of the rest of the army).

You cant compare the units directly because the 2 armies play completely differently.

Alternately, you can compare units directly so long as you understand their relative contexts and adjust accordingly.

The way I see it every army in Warhammer 40k can be describe according to the distribution of three principles:

Flexibility (aka "duality" in some circles...)
Redundancy (aka "spam")
Synergy

An army needs to maximize its abilities in all three areas, or according to all three principles. But you face the choice of maximizing across the army, or within units. When you're maximizing flexibility across the army, you can take a range of specialized units or you can take a range of generalized units. The generalized units have greater redundancy because you can lose any unit until the last one, while the specialized units have greater synergy, thanks to the 40k limits on target selection and the other of events (two Lascannons in one unit destroy a vehicle, then another unit charges, rather than two units with lascannons destroying one unit and not being able to charge the passengers).

Consider that a Lascannon in a Chaos Space Marine squad is only 10pts more than a Melta Gun, and 15pts less than a Lascannon found on a Chosen or Havoc squad, and 10pts less than one found on a Predator. Land Raiders and Obliterators have complex arrangements so I'll leave them out for the moment.

Suppose you have four Chaos Space Marine squads and one Havoc squad. If you have four Lascannons and eight Melta Guns to distribute, then you can have two Melta Guns in each Chaos Space Marine squad and four Lascannons in the Havoc squad. This gives you the ability to engage up to one unit on Turn 1, and five units on Turn 2, at the premium of 220pts.

Otherwise you can have one Melta Gun and one Lascannon in each Chaos Space Marine squad and four Melta Guns in the Havoc squad. That gives you the ability to engage up to four units on Turn 1 and up to five units on Turn 2, for a premium of 160pts. More coverage, more mobility, less cost. Some might construe that as additional efficiency.

I played an army built around pre-heresy so I dropped all of the units and weapons that were not around during that time including Oblits.

So I ran an army without Oblits several times and I just could not make it work. I ran 2 units of chosen with lascannons, Havocs with missile launchers, and other Havoc units, and I had limited success. Havocs were hurt by Dawn of War deployments, and their static shooting nature, but they did have durability, and I did like the fact that they were also a CSM squads and they also had good combat utility. The chosen were ok because they had infiltrate, but they were costly.

But what I really needed were lascannons. I had a total of 4 them in my CSM squads and the Chosen, but there are so many things out there that can only be killed by lascannons, that I felt that they are necessary to a winning Chaos army. Sure, 2 out of 3 games I can win and I did not need them, but on the third I was outmatched by something where I was saying to myself I could win if I had oblits. Think of everything with 2+ save, 14 armor, and toughness 8+ that you need to kill.

Note: I would also point out that I run a shooting CSM army.

I still want to point out that predators can do cost-efficient lascannons pretty well.

willydstyle wrote:I still want to point out that predators can do cost-efficient lascannons pretty well.

There are also other things you can take as well like Land Raiders, and Noise Marines, etc.

But they are just substitutes, and will not do as good a job as Oblits.

For example: After you kill the things that you need lascannons to kill then what do you do with the Pred? What if you are playing against and Ork, IG or Tyranid horde? Then your preds are worthless.

I can't understate the utility of the Oblits.
Deep strikers (termies or others) come down and they are all bunched up? Hit them with a plasma cannon.
Trygon pop up right next to your army? Rapid fire some TL Plasma Guns.
Land Raider driving forward to drop it's payload? Melta guns.
Horde army getting to close? Hit them with Flamers.
Etc.

You see my point. In a take-all-comers tournament you can't beat oblits.

I think willydstyle's point about Predators was that they were a cost-efficient way of bringing Lascannons to the field. Compared to three Obliterators, they bring three Lascannons to the field and free up 60pts for other stuff while have one Lascannon be more reliable, and being far more resistant to S7- weapons; two shots with a Plasma Gun can kill an Obliterator much more easily than it will kill a Predator.

I think the efficacy of Obliterator Weaponry has been beaten to death. That's not at issue, except in the specific instance where other units have weapons they don't have, or can front-load more of one particular type of firepower. The draw-back to Obliterators is their cost and stamina: they cost a bundle, and die relatively easily.

So yes, I do believe you've overstated the utility of Obliterators because you haven't given sufficient account of their weaknesses.

If you're playing an army that does not require anti-tank weapons for killing, then you use the preds as AV13 cover for your rhinos and run them around tank shocking recklessly.

Sorry, but I cant think of anytime where my predator hasnt had a target. If Ive blown up all the enemy vehicles (at which point Ive likely already won anyways), I shoot things like terminators or nobs, or anything else I can Instant kill. Predators still get 4 high S shots at 48". Obliterators are going to do what? Charge towards 30 orks and use their versatility?

I have to chuckle at Blackmoor's post. The problem with all that versatility is that the rest of the army does most of those things, and does it better. I used to use oblits and NEVER fired the flamer once. Even the melta guns rarely got used, because I already have eight of them spread across the table. Unless the Landraider can fly, there is no way its getting through 8 melta guns. Not necessary.

Plasma cannons are nice, but you dont need 6 of them. I tried them on two dreads as a joke, and found that they did the job well. Now my 2 dreadnoughts are in my main list, mainly running forward into CC, but blasting anything that happens to bunch up. That's all I need for PCs.

No, what I need from Heavy Support is the glaring weakness that the rest of the book holds - long range fire. Point for point, Predators (and Havocs) do it better. Plus both of them survive far better than oblits.

Night Lords wrote:Obliterators are going to do what? Charge towards 30 orks and use their versatility?

You, sir, win the thread.

Well I have tank shocked and triple TLflamered bunched up orks...it worked out well.

Few and far between, but I guess the usage is more important than list building.

minigun762 wrote:I'm sure people will have strong feelings one way or another but I'm going to come right out and say
"No, I don't think so".

I think the key to success with Chaos Marines lies in the troops. Termicide and Oblits are good support units but they're just that, support.

Both are good units, but I don't play with either of them at 1750. Here is my list http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/272205.page

I have no problems with anti tank. My only problem is lists with 5 or more MC.

I could dump the defiler for a pair of oblits, but they would probably be less survivable. It's easy for me in most games to give my defiler a cover save and keep it out of range of most of the enemy's weapons. That and they are usually too preoccupied with my monstrous creatures.

Night Lords wrote:Obliterators are going to do what? Charge towards 30 orks and use their versatility?

No, that's what the rest of your list is for.

They are never better than a specialized unit. You won't get to use all of their abilities in a single game. They are a supplimentary unit, to help your dedicated anti-whatever units if your opponent spams to overload a single category (horde or armor spam).

Here is another reason why Oblits are better than Preds: Tyranid shooting can take out a pred without too much problem. Tyranid shooting has a problem killing Oblits. (I will not get into how they lose most of their firepower when they move, they have weak side and rear armor, and they can be stunned. and it is much harder to given them a cover save than oblits).

willydstyle wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Obliterators are going to do what? Charge towards 30 orks and use their versatility?

You, sir, win the thread.

In my experience, the orks will charge toward you whether you want them to or not. I could go into details of how you can use flamers on horde armies, but this is not tactics. If you are not a good enough player to figure it out, I can't help you.

Nurglitch wrote: two shots with a Plasma Gun can kill an Obliterator much more easily than it will kill a Predator.

The draw-back to Obliterators is their cost and stamina: they cost a bundle, and die relatively easily.

So yes, I do believe you've overstated the utility of Obliterators because you haven't given sufficient account of their weaknesses.

Everyone keeps saying that they are weak and they can be killed so easily. It is nice to sit back and think that things like plasma guns can kill them, but you need to get them within 12” and to do that you have to go through the rest of my army. You can also say that Lascannons can kill them, but how many armies really have lascannons anymore?
You can say that they have no stamina, but can you prove it?

In point of fact almost every army seems to have lascannons or lascannon-like weapons.

I have 6 Lascannons in my 2,000 point Space Marine army, all on separate units, and consider that relatively insufficient. Imperial Guard armies frequently field 2-3 Vendettas, even in lower-points games, and may have more lascannons besides in heavy weapon squads or infantry blobs. Eldar often take bright lances. Dark Eldar are well-known for their obscene amounts of dark lances. Witch Hunters have the phenomenal Exorcist tank. Tau, of course, take railguns. Enemy Chaos Marines have their own Obliterators. The only armies that *don't* seem to have these weapons are Orks, Tyranids, and Necrons.

Further, with the advent of Tyranids, I think more and more people may start fielding these sorts of long-range weapons, which is a definite lose for Oblits.

If you're moving, on a good day, 6" in the movement phase, you will either be:

Out of range for flamers

-or-

Assaulted by the enemy.

The situations where an infantry-speed model gets to use flamers are rare against good players.

imweasel wrote:

Night Lords wrote:Obliterators are going to do what? Charge towards 30 orks and use their versatility?

No, that's what the rest of your list is for.

That's exactly my point. If all the lascannon targets are dead, what are the oblits going to do that is even worth mentioning? The rest of our army takes down horde just fine (that's actually what they excel at), so why do we need 225 points of obliterators shooting a couple of flamers?

Blackmoor wrote:Here is another reason why Oblits are better than Preds: Tyranid shooting can take out a pred without too much problem. Tyranid shooting has a problem killing Oblits. (I will not get into how they lose most of their firepower when they move, they have weak side and rear armor, and they can be stunned. and it is much harder to given them a cover save than oblits).

Are you kidding me? Please tell me youre kidding...? Most Nid shooting is S6. Tyranid shooting is exceptionally bad against armour, let alone AV13 which everyone struggles with. They have two main options - Hive Guard, which shoot Strength 8 shots 24" (~3% chance to destroy predator, ~9% chance to kill oblit [assuming theyre not ap2 which I dont think they are]), and Zoans which annihilate both, but have to be pretty close. If Zoans are going to suicide behind me and blow up a predator, that's perfectly fine.

I also love how you only bring up the "negative" points about the pred. Here let me address them:


-Cant move and shoot, as opposed to moving 3-4 inches with oblits? Fantastic. My Predator barely moves at all, and when it does it can move 12", tank shocking or claiming objectives. Ill take those pros over moving an few inches a turn, especially since it can turn and shoot for free.

-Weak Side/Rear Armour. If youre getting hit on rear armour, there is seriously something wrong. As for side, only outflankers (atleast turn 2+) completely dedicated to dispatching of my predator are going to get side armour...provided they get the right side, have range, no terrain in the way (love hugging those buildings). And even then, by then the predator has already made its points back.

-Can be stunned! My absolute favourite point to counter in all W40k discussions. Seriously, Im loving the anticipation here. Guess what? Did you know that the odds of a Lascannon (Strg 9, let alone Strg 8 which IK's Oblits) stunning a predator are lower than the odds of that same lascannon killing an oblit? It's more like thank you, he's only stunned instead of dead!

Plus, did you know that stunning a Chaos Predator is actually good for a Chaos player? If you had something that was actually able to hit AV13, you just wasted it on a 130 point predator instead of the squads of rhinos moving up the board. Yep, now my rhinos are 12" closer, and next turn you have to deal with the predator again. I love when people shoot my predators, the odds are ridiculously low and my boys get to move up. Congratulations, you just stunned yourself by wasting a turn of shooting.

Blackmoor wrote:In my experience, the orks will charge toward you whether you want them to or not. I could go into details of how you can use flamers on horde armies, but this is not tactics. If you are not a good enough player to figure it out, I can't help you.

That's nice, trying to insult people with a completely irrelevant point. Except you left the part out where we dont need anti horde from our heavies, or the fact that any ork player that knows anything knows he outranges your S&P oblits, or the fact that you have no lascannon targets left probably means youve already won. Ignoring all that, maybe youll kill a few 6 point boyz, but that Nob is going to eat your entire unit of 75 point oblits. I guess theyre great suicide runners? Oh wait, preds get hit on 6+, so they still have a better chance of distracting and surviving....

willydstyle wrote:If you're moving, on a good day, 6" in the movement phase, you will either be:

Out of range for flamers

-or-

Assaulted by the enemy.

The situations where an infantry-speed model gets to use flamers are rare against good players.

That is not true. Since your Oblits will be in the back of your army, you should have a screen of CSM in front of them. So when the horde of Orks or Tyranids come crashing into your lines, and wipe out the CSM then you can just step forward and flame them.

You can also do the same with a rhino. Use it as bait and have it just ahead of the Oblits so that the rhino is in charge range, but the oblits are not. Then what most horde armies want to do is to get to you as fast as possible so when they get the chance to get an extra 6" movement from assaulting they will move forward, and clump up. Then on your turn you either drive the rhino away and flame them, or you crawl over the wreckage to do the same.

Blackmoor wrote:You can say that they have no stamina, but can you prove it?

Nope, didn't say that. I said:

Nurglitch wrote:The draw-back to Obliterators is their cost and stamina: they cost a bundle, and die relatively easily.

In last year's 'Ard Boyz, my first round was against a horde Ork player. I deep struck an Oblit squad on turn 3 and they alone killed 25 Orks out of a mob after some tank shocking with their TL flamers.

The Predator would have been pretty much worthless. "Woo, I plinked another 2 Boyz!".

My last round was against Lysander/Calgar Terminator spam. After Termicide cracked the raiders, my Oblits ravaged Lashed AssTerm squads with plasmacannon fire.

Again, the Predator would have been pretty much worthless. "Woo, I put a wound on Lysander!".

Whenever one of these Obliterator vs X comparison threads come up, it's like we assume that X is played by some sooper genius while Oblits are flung ham-fistedly straight into the first power fist you can find.

You have to be a good player to get the most use out of Oblits. As a unit, they have about the same average yield as other heavy support choices, but much higher maximum potential due to their versatility.

Night Lords wrote:
Are you kidding me? Please tell me youre kidding...? Most Nid shooting is S6. Tyranid shooting is exceptionally bad against armour, let alone AV13 which everyone struggles with. They have two main options - Hive Guard, which shoot Strength 8 shots 24" (~3% chance to destroy predator, ~9% chance to kill oblit [assuming theyre not ap2 which I dont think they are]), and Zoans which annihilate both, but have to be pretty close. If Zoans are going to suicide behind me and blow up a predator, that's perfectly fine.

I was talking about Nid anti-tank. Hive Guard, Venom Cannons, Trynnofexs. All able to kill Preds at range, and are useless against Oblits.
Now you are making me do math: 3 Hive Guard at 150 points will shoot 6 shots. They will have a 132% to do some kind of damage to a Pred, with a 22% chance to kill it, and a 55% chance to stun it. Against oblits they will hit 4 times, they will wound 3.3 times and have will do .55 unsaved wounds to the oblits so yes, they might kill an oblit.

-Cant move and shoot, as opposed to moving 3-4 inches with oblits? Fantastic. My Predator barely moves at all, and when it does it can move 12", tank shocking or claiming objectives. Ill take those pros over moving an few inches a turn, especially since it can turn and shoot for free.

Armies are constantly moving, and you have to more to be able to counter them. A pred is a static pillbox that can out maneuvered. You see it in the games, but you can’t explain it in a post. And if you are tank shocking you are close enough to eat a melta gun.

-Weak Side/Rear Armor. If youre getting hit on rear armour, there is seriously something wrong. As for side, only outflankers (atleast turn 2+) completely dedicated to dispatching of my predator are going to get side armour...provided they get the right side, have range, no terrain in the way (love hugging those buildings). And even then, by then the predator has already made its points back.

I will wager that any Eldar player can get side shots on you before you make your points back.
Also let me introduce you to every Tyranid players new friend…Mr. Trygon. He will pop up where he wants to and hit you with a whole lot of strength 6 shots to your rear or sides. See, and you thought tyranid strength 6 shooting couldn’t hurt you!

-Can be stunned! My absolute favourite point to counter in all W40k discussions. Seriously, Im loving the anticipation here. Guess what? Did you know that the odds of a Lascannon (Strg 9, let alone Strg 8 which IK's Oblits) stunning a predator are lower than the odds of that same lascannon killing an oblit? It's more like thank you, he's only stunned instead of dead!

I refer you to what I said earlier, and oblit can hide and then move out to shoot. A pred can’t. You can keep it stunned until you kill it. If you get a shot through to an oblit, sure you might drop one (if you are lucky enough to get thought the cover or Inv save) but the oblits that are left will still shoot.

Plus, did you know that stunning a Chaos Predator is actually good for a Chaos player? If you had something that was actually able to hit AV13, you just wasted it on a 130 point predator instead of the squads of rhinos moving up the board. Yep, now my rhinos are 12" closer, and next turn you have to deal with the predator again. I love when people shoot my predators, the odds are ridiculously low and my boys get to move up. Congratulations, you just stunned yourself by wasting a turn of shooting.

I disagree. Most armies have a lot of combined weapons, and although your preds will be getting hit with the big stuff, there should be plenty of strength 6/7/8 for your rhinos.

That's nice, trying to insult people with a completely irrelevant point. Except you left the part out where we dont need anti horde from our heavies, or the fact that any ork player that knows anything knows he outranges your S&P oblits, or the fact that you have no lascannon targets left probably means youve already won. Ignoring all that, maybe youll kill a few 6 point boyz, but that Nob is going to eat your entire unit of 75 point oblits. I guess theyre great suicide runners? Oh wait, preds get hit on 6+, so they still have a better chance of distracting and surviving....

I guess what you are saying is that it is easy to beat 180 Ork Boyz backed up by lootas since you are saying that if you are out of targets for lascannons you have already won. Our experiences must be different then, because I still find them quite formidable.

What I was saying is that it is good to have many tools available to use. If your pred is right next to a pile of orks there is nothing that it can really do, where an oblit can use its flamer.

The other day I had a terminator squad right next to a land raider. I was kicking myself for not having a chainfist. This is not a feeling you will have with oblits because whatever shooting weapon will do the most damage, you can have.



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Nurglitch wrote:

Blackmoor wrote:You can say that they have no stamina, but can you prove it?

Nope, didn't say that. I said:

Nurglitch wrote:The draw-back to Obliterators is their cost and stamina: they cost a bundle, and die relatively easily.

There is not doubt that they are costly, but you get a lot of bang for your buck.

Looking for an army that can kill 6 obilts I turned to the army list form.

Here are the first 5 armies in the army list forum on 1/31/2010 5:38 CST.

Army #1
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/273902.page
1850 Points of Salamanders
Here is the weapons that can kill Oblits with ease:
2 Melta Guns
2 Multi-Meltas
Predator - Autocannon w/ Lascannon sponsons
Vindicator
You think that has a good chance at killing Oblits? He has one thing that can kill Oblits at 24”+, and the oblits will kill that without working up a sweat. One Multi-melta is on a land speeder and anything in my army can kill that without a problem. Then what? He is screwed while my Oblits rain death upon them.

Army #2
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276757.page
1500 Point bike army
2 Melta Guns
3 landspeeder typhoons w/ mulitameltas anti Infantry. tank outflank

You think that is going to kill some oblits?

Army #3
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276656.page
1850 Points of Ultramarines
He does have 3 Lascannons, but he has them in Drop pods. So he will either drop them where they will get the crap shot out of them before they can shoot, or he will combat squad them and have 5 man lascannon squads running around which are static, and I should be able to out maneuver and kill.

Army #4
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/272205.page
1750 Points of CSM
4 Melta guns.

Army #5
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/276312.page
Dash of Pepper’s 1850 Points of Orks
Do powerklaws count?

I searched though my Batreps for tournament games with and without Oblits to see how they did for practical experience on the tabletop. With all of my tournament games, I only found 1 where they use oblits with the latest codex.

Here I am last year playing in the Adepticon Invational
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/236438.page
I took Thousand Sons without Oblits and I went 0-2-1 (My worse W/L record at a tournament). I did tie Greg Sparks who was using 6 oblits but he should have won but he used the wrong weapon on my deep striking Terminators (He used TL plasma guns instead of plasma cannons) and that kept me in the game. Do you know how many Obits he had at the end of the game? All 6 were left. Also do you know what army won the invitational? That is right, an army with 9 oblits. (The invitational was for people who scored in the top 10% in battle points in a GT were invited to play)


So I refute your claim that they have no stamina.


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I am done with this topic. Those who like oblits, like them, and those that don't like oblits, don't.

No amount of arguing will change peoples minds.

Blackmoor wrote:
-I was talking about Nid anti-tank. Hive Guard, Venom Cannons, Trynnofexs. All able to kill Preds at range, and are useless against Oblits.
Now you are making me do math: 3 Hive Guard at 150 points will shoot 6 shots. They will have a 132% to do some kind of damage to a Pred, with a 22% chance to kill it, and a 55% chance to stun it. Against oblits they will hit 4 times, they will wound 3.3 times and have will do .55 unsaved wounds to the oblits so yes, they might kill an oblit.

-Armies are constantly moving, and you have to more to be able to counter them. A pred is a static pillbox that can out maneuvered. You see it in the games, but you can’t explain it in a post. And if you are tank shocking you are close enough to eat a melta gun.

-I will wager that any Eldar player can get side shots on you before you make your points back.
Also let me introduce you to every Tyranid players new friend…Mr. Trygon. He will pop up where he wants to and hit you with a whole lot of strength 6 shots to your rear or sides. See, and you thought tyranid strength 6 shooting couldn’t hurt you!

-I refer you to what I said earlier, and oblit can hide and then move out to shoot. A pred can’t. You can keep it stunned until you kill it. If you get a shot through to an oblit, sure you might drop one (if you are lucky enough to get thought the cover or Inv save) but the oblits that are left will still shoot.

-I disagree. Most armies have a lot of combined weapons, and although your preds will be getting hit with the big stuff, there should be plenty of strength 6/7/8 for your rhinos.

-I guess what you are saying is that it is easy to beat 180 Ork Boyz backed up by lootas since you are saying that if you are out of targets for lascannons you have already won. Our experiences must be different then, because I still find them quite formidable.

-What I was saying is that it is good to have many tools available to use. If your pred is right next to a pile of orks there is nothing that it can really do, where an oblit can use its flamer.

-Hive Guard, as discussed, are just going to stun the pred. An eye for an eye. Waste of shooting for them. Venom Cannons are lascannons but worse. Did we not talk about the horrible odds for lascannons already? A BS3 VC...lets say 50% chance to scatter. 0.5 -> ~0.16 pen -> 0.0264 destroyed pred. On Oblits: 0.5 -> 0.42 ->0.0672 x 3 oblits -> 0.2016 dead oblits. What was that again? T-Fex -> 0.5 - 0.25 pen - 0.08 to destroy x 2 shots = 0.16 chance. 250 points for a 16% chance to destroy. Theres other results in this, but the fact is, it just doesnt take them out of the game unlike oblits (squish).

-I play on terrain heavy boards, and even then, with True Line of Sight (which i think is horrible, but thats a different topic) they can see almost everything, making moving a rare occurrence. Im honestly trying to think of a situation where something is completely hidden from a pred, that is a threat, but cant be destroyed by something else in my army, or why my army would move into a trap like that, or how an oblit will somehow magically see it by moving 4".

-I play Eldar the most actually, and theyre partly the reason for my switch. I get far more shots off with much better odds (because of S8 max). Oblits have absolutely no advantage in this matchup, other than suiciding by deepstriking in behind (and the odds of that...foolish). Ive played the 4++ fire dragon wave serpent game, dont you worry.

As for the trygon, assuming he lands where he wants...lets be generous and say 50%. 3 hits, .5 pens, 0.1584 destroyed * 0.5 = 0.075 chance to destroy. It doesnt matter because the next turn both oblits and preds are fudged, but yea, odds are not so great.

-A pred being stunned all game is unlikely without heavy dedicated shooting. I guess this hypothetical player will play against the odds all game by shooting preds with high strg, and shooting rhinos with mid strg? I guess that makes sense (that's sarcasm)...and unless its guard (which is a completely lopsided matchup for chaos regardless of oblits/preds,), there isnt going to be enough shooting to take down an entire army heading their way with those odds.

-I love the extreme example with 180 boyz, negating the fact that I said "most likely", let me give you a . Whats funny though is that with preds, youre going to get more shots off on those lootas than you would with oblits. But dont worry, oblits have flamers!

-If my pred is next to a pile of orks, I would hope theyre in CC or I seriously Fd up elsewhere. I can also simply...drive away, leaving the orks in my dust. But that would require using an advantage of the pred, we cant have that!

Blackmoor:

Yeah, and I think those lists suck. What's your point? That Obliterators are great when they face lists and players unprepared to silence them? Maybe if you actually tried arguing in a cogent fashion you would actually make a constructive argument that moves the thread forwards rather than simply erecting a series of pointless straw-men.

Blackmoor said:

"I am done with this topic. Those who like oblits, like them, and those that don't like oblits, don't.

No amount of arguing will change peoples minds. "

Here is the problem. No one is saying that Oblits are a bad unit. What myself and others are arguing is that you dont need them to be competitive (or in other words, youre not hindering your chances of winning by not taking them). Both units have their advantages. Preds are better in terms of sheer firepower, Oblits are versatile. The question is whether the versatility is worth dropping the firepower for. In my opinion, no.

I'm actually arguing that Chaos isn't competitive, but that there are other options for the HS slot that art as good or better than oblits situationally.

No, they are not required. Termicide is poop in my book. Obliterators are absolutely insane though. There is no better choice.
Vindicators are also really good though, for how cheap you can get 3.

willydstyle wrote:I'm actually arguing that Chaos isn't competitive, but that there are other options for the HS slot that art as good or better than oblits situationally.

If Chaos isn't competitive, then what does that make vanillia SM?

Vanilla SM is highly competitive. They have more list options, more efficient units, and the capability to destroy transports easily from range in the FA and Troops slots that Chaos just doesn't possess.

Chaos can mimic competitive lists, but can't be truly competitive.

@willydstyle:
Heh, we are back to that line. That was pretty quick

willydstyle wrote:Vanilla SM is highly competitive. They have more list options, more efficient units, and the capability to destroy transports easily from range in the FA and Troops slots that Chaos just doesn't possess.

It's a good thing they have oblits to make up for it!

Chaos can mimic competitive lists, but can't be truly competitive.

Chaos can be very competitive, even without lash...as long as you bring some oblits.

I'll take MM attack bikes over oblits any day of the week.

Edit: also, I don't think that Lash is a particularly competitive power. It's awesome against scrubs, and it helps players who can't judge ranges and movement speeds well, but I don't think it really helps a good general beat other good generals to a significant degree.

Concur. Lash is one of the most overrated abilities in the game, especially against mech.

I'll third that the Lash of Submission is popularly over-rated, but then I'd say the same about Obliterators: they're both good for scrubs but the utility depends on your opponents not having a plan for them.

Lash and oblits are a very effective army list. The problem is that a lot of people who play them arent good, its a netlist.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:Lash and oblits are a very effective army list. The problem is that a lot of people who play them arent good, its a netlist.

I'm a pretty good player. I win a large majority of my games, against good players with good lists, including in tournament play (though I admit I have not participated in a GT level event yet).

Every time I bring Lash against another good player with a competent list (one with a good mix of speed, range, mechanization, and killing power) I find myself wishing that I'd used the points and HQ slot for a different unit.

When I bring Lash against a scrub, it just helps me beat a bad player even worse than I would have anyways.

I have found that running my OBLITZ in one three man cult works well and then I use other heavy in conjunction with it. IE, a lascannon decked predator and a couple land raiders.

If you run a termy squad in one of the land raiders, you can get one of them in your list as a dedicated transport; which seems to work relatively well.

I get the most out of lascannons and the one 3-man OBLIT cult makes up for the diference with their versatility.


That being said I think the OBLITZ make a good heavy support but I don't use them exclusively, more as a compliment to tanks.

What the problem might be is how people run their CSM armies.

What I seem to see here is that those that run CSM as an assault army don't need Oblits.

I run my CSM more as a shooting army and I need Oblits to help out, and it is possible that others who run them as a shooty army feel the same way.

The first time I played my friend's White Scars with my Black Legion he said "I didn't realize how shooty your army was."

So I think I run a fairly shooty Chaos army, and I don't feel I particularly need Oblits for it to run well.

I'd have to echo willydstyle: I run a shooty Chaos army and I don't feel that Obliterators have a place in it if I wanted to play competitively (although they certainly do have a place in other armies).

Blackmoor wrote:What the problem might be is how people run their CSM armies.

What I seem to see here is that those that run CSM as an assault army don't need Oblits.

I run my CSM more as a shooting army and I need Oblits to help out, and it is possible that others who run them as a shooty army feel the same way.

Well, the entire point of the topic is whether Oblits are essential. As in, you take them or lose to any decent player.

Oblits are great, I used them for a long time. Theyre the obvious choice in a lash list (which I dont like too much, but others do).

However, not everyone plays the cookie cutter list. What I need in my army is reliable long range shooting (more shots = better odds, which havocs and preds provide). My large amount of CSM & friends (which include 2 dreadnoughts - another unit I never saw myself even considering) moving up the field can take out any APC contents. I like Preds because they are a reliable, sturdy firebase that is pointless for my opponent to shoot at. I honestly dont remember the last time a predator was destroyed (or even stunned), as the outflankers/deepstrikers have better odds with the more important threat moving up the field, and the opponent's I play against know that. I have had to reposition them a few times, meaning I would only shoot one lascannon, but those are rare instances. Otherwise Im shooting 4 high strength shots a turn with each.

It's all about army synergy and how the units perform with one another. Yes, looking at our units one by one in isolation, the Oblits DO look good and like the obvious option. Plague Marines also look like an obvious option. Dreads look terrible. Yet I dont use either of the first two but I use the dread. Why? Because it adds to army synergy. Dreads simply cannot be ignored by your opponent. Even with their problems, they simply have to shoot at them. This is something my army needs to help ensure reaching the opponents lines.

So no, preds are not the best option in every list. No, havocs arnt either. However, the same can be said about Oblits, theyre not necessarily the best. They have their flaws, and other units have clear advantages. Oblits are extremely forgiving due to their versatility, but with a little thought all those negative points about the pred can be dealt with.

I have to agree with Night Lords: the value of a unit reall does depend on your strategy (your army list and how you plan to use it) as well as how good the unit looks on paper. Moreover there really are no no-brainer units in Codex: Chaos Space Marines, although some units have a narrower strategic range (will fit into fewer strategies) than others, and thus their utility will seem less obvious to people who aren't willing or able to puzzle it out.

I just threw that out there because I can't understand why some people think they are not necessary.

So do you understand now why some people don't think Obliterators are necessary?

This argument is the dumbest on dakka.

Over in eldar land we have the occasional fire prism vs war walker debate. It generally comes down to what do you want to use.

You know whats essential to a 'good list'?
1 hq and 2 troop choices, thats it. Build the rest however the hell you want.
if 2xlash princes, 4xplague marines and 9 oblits do it for you go for it.

if 2 khorne lords, 4 zerker squads, and 3 vindicators win you games use it.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:This argument is the dumbest on dakka.

Over in eldar land we have the occasional fire prism vs war walker debate. It generally comes down to what do you want to use.

You know whats essential to a 'good list'?
1 hq and 2 troop choices, thats it. Build the rest however the hell you want.
if 2xlash princes, 4xplague marines and 9 oblits do it for you go for it.

if 2 khorne lords, 4 zerker squads, and 3 vindicators win you games use it.

Now I know whose opinion not to pay any attention to.

@I grappled the shoggoth:
That is a great attitude when approaching the game/hobby in general.
But this thread is focusing specifically on Dreads + Competitivness...it's the point here.

Your suggestion does go in different direction...maybe worse than my derailments...

Right, and what im trying to say is no, you do not need obliterators to be competitive. I guess I should have explained myself better.

There are competitive requirements and competitive choices.

Obliterators are a competitive choice, but not a requirement.

I would consider having heavy support a competitive requirement for chaos, but what it is is up to the player.