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Post by: kenshin620
H.B.M.C. wrote:Sidstyler wrote:I really don't get why people hate special characters so much. Everyone's quick to claim that they play for "fun", but the ones adamant about it are usually the most restrictive...
I don't hate special characters, I hate the trend of them being the only way to modify your army. I hate the way people mix special characters from different armies. I like to make up my own characters for my armies, and find these army-changing special characters take a lot of the character out of 40K (ie. people don't play their Salamanders any more - they play their Vulkan list - it's boring).
Strangely though I find only the newest space marine armies follow that, even then its mainly codex space marines sine they tossed out their codex traits
IG and Tyranids are quite fine without them. Perhaps the DE will follow in suit?
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Post by: Inquisitor_Malice
H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't hate special characters, I hate the trend of them being the only way to modify your army. I hate the way people mix special characters from different armies. I like to make up my own characters for my armies, and find these army-changing special characters take a lot of the character out of 40K (ie. people don't play their Salamanders any more - they play their Vulkan list - it's boring).
However, playing lists where the characters don't add anything to the force is just as bad. The Eldar and Chaos codices for instance have no true "character" at all, which makes them down right boring to play at times. Maybe a permutation is needed where there are types of armies within each codex that have unique characteristics by themselves, but then the SC can add in extra buffs. If I had to choose between the Eldar/Chaos style of books vs the SM, IG, BA, SW and Nids, I would take the later any day of the week.
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Post by: Sidstyler
kenshin620 wrote:Sidstyler wrote:I really don't get why people hate special characters so much. Everyone's quick to claim that they play for "fun", but the ones adamant about it are usually the most restrictive...
Well SC that really change a game up like Vulkan, the Ctan, Mephiston, Swarmlord, etc can cause big problems to people who have no idea how to counter them.
Lots of different units can potentially cause problems for people. Especially for those people playing with codices that are poorly designed and don't always have all their bases covered (like Chaos Daemons or Orks trying to deal with AV14...or mechanized armies in general).
But the only way you can learn how to counter them is by playing against them. You can't just force everyone not to use the stuff you don't like.
H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't hate special characters, I hate the trend of them being the only way to modify your army. I hate the way people mix special characters from different armies. I like to make up my own characters for my armies, and find these army-changing special characters take a lot of the character out of 40K (ie. people don't play their Salamanders any more - they play their Vulkan list - it's boring).
All special characters are is a stat-line with some special rules. But some people just see Vulkan or Eldrad everywhere, they can't use their imagination and just pretend they're different characters altogether. Same thing with mixing characters, it's not really hard to just pretend they're different people with the same rules, especially if they have the same paint scheme. But for some reason some people just can't.
As for Salamander armies, I'd argue that people didn't play Salamander armies before, either...they were just Ultramarines painted green, like every single other codex chapter. Not only do they get their own character now, but he gives you bonuses that actually follow the fluff. You can say "cookie cutter lists", but honestly, if you were following the fluff before then your Salamander army looked the same as every other Salamander army anyway. You took a lot of flamers and meltas, you didn't use hardly anything from Fast Attack, etc. At least now you actually get something for it, which is what I think GW should do more often when writing rules...if fluffy armies don't suck then people have more reason to use them.
And yeah, as Malice pointed out, when you take focus away from the characters or make them bland and boring so no one will use them, you get Chaos Space Marines. That army is just full of character!  Not to say that's the reason why CSM suck or anything, it's just one of many things.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Updated the first post, newest batch of rumours dark red as always.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Kroothawk wrote:Updated the first post, newest batch of rumours dark red as always.
Much appreciated. Woo finally theres official non tau jetpacks
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Post by: Nvs
Glad to hear about scourges. So long as they aren't horrendously overpriced, they will be amazing.
Jetpacks move in the assault phase right? 12" in movement, 6" in assault? And can fire heavies if they move?
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Post by: kenshin620
Nvs wrote:Glad to hear about scourges. So long as they aren't horrendously overpriced, they will be amazing.
Jetpacks move in the assault phase right? 12" in movement, 6" in assault? And can fire heavies if they move?
6" in movement, 6" in assault, relentless
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Ditto Nvs
If they kept the model cost the same as it is at present, would that be effectively worth it. Am assuming so
Apologies for the niave question
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Post by: Hulksmash
If the Scourge did move to fast attack that is just sick. There will actually be a decent unit in every part of the force org. I'm even more excited!
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Post by: Sigmatron
Any idea of the point value for Warriors/Wyches/Archons?
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Even if there is it can't be mentioned Sigmatron
such things are frowned upon 
Best answer you are likely to get is, Yes I have an idea, or nope, not a scooby doo! 
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Post by: Sigmatron
Kroot gave the point value of the Raider in a round about way. Just curious if it was up or the same.
33033
Post by: kenshin620
Maybe express the points in the form of a function? (curse you pre cal!)
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
kenshin620 wrote:IG and Tyranids are quite fine without them. Perhaps the DE will follow in suit?
Yeah but how many do you see without them?
Swarmlord and Doom of Malantai have become two virtually mandatory non-special Special Characters. When a Special Character becomes a no brainer option, it ceases to be a 'Special' Character.
Sidstyler wrote:All special characters are is a stat-line with some special rules. But some people just see Vulkan or Eldrad everywhere, they can't use their imagination and just pretend they're different characters altogether. Same thing with mixing characters, it's not really hard to just pretend they're different people with the same rules, especially if they have the same paint scheme. But for some reason some people just can't.
So, " just use counts as" is your best answer? You shouldn't require characters at all to modify your list. Lists should have options that allow for that or, at worst, generic choices (like how the SM Captain in the Marine Codex allows a Bike army without being a special character). Having Sub-Lists is a better solution than having characters. And special characters are more than a statline and some special rules - they're also a model, with history, fluff, personality, motivations - all of which are dictated. If you want to bring a Vulkan army, you're always going to have Vulkan at your head. You can never field a Salamander army, using Salamander specific special rules, without always having this one guy there to lead them. It only gets worse in the Dark Angel Codex, where once before you could field Deathwing and Ravenwing armies with no issue, but now they must always have Belial or Sammael at their head.
Sidstyler wrote:As for Salamander armies, I'd argue that people didn't play Salamander armies before, either...they were just Ultramarines painted green, like every single other codex chapter. Not only do they get their own character now, but he gives you bonuses that actually follow the fluff. You can say "cookie cutter lists", but honestly, if you were following the fluff before then your Salamander army looked the same as every other Salamander army anyway. You took a lot of flamers and meltas, you didn't use hardly anything from Fast Attack, etc. At least now you actually get something for it, which is what I think GW should do more often when writing rules...if fluffy armies don't suck then people have more reason to use them.
Two points here:
1. Sallies had a list in 3rd Ed, so people have been playing Salamander armies. The 4th Ed 'Dex even had traits for them (as horrifically flawed as the Traits system was...).
2. You should not need a character in order to gain the benefits of following the fluff. Fluff and power should be synonymous. They should be congruent. The more fluffy your army, the more powerful it should be, and vice versa. No specific character should be required for your to follow your army's fluff and gain the benefits there of.
Sidstyler wrote:And yeah, as Malice pointed out, when you take focus away from the characters or make them bland and boring so no one will use them, you get Chaos Space Marines. That army is just full of character! Not to say that's the reason why CSM suck or anything, it's just one of many things.
Remove the Special Characters from the 'Chaos' Codex and that book is still dead and lifeless. The SC's add nothing to that book, nor do they take anything away. All they do is provide a good example of Codex Creep (compare Typhus - a mother fething Herald of Nurgle Terminator Sorcerer Lord - to Chaplain Cassius and Chief Librarian Mephiston; see a problem there?).
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Post by: kenshin620
H.B.M.C. wrote:kenshin620 wrote:IG and Tyranids are quite fine without them. Perhaps the DE will follow in suit?
Yeah but how many do you see without them?
Swarmlord and Doom of Malantai have become two virtually mandatory non-special Special Characters. When a Special Character becomes a no brainer option, it ceases to be a 'Special' Character.
Thats not the point I was making. I was talking about list changes. Taking Doom does not make zoans troops for example
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
And thank God for that...
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Post by: kenshin620
H.B.M.C. wrote:And thank God for that...
Quick! Break out the Culexus Assassins! 
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Post by: Sidstyler
Yeah but how many do you see without them?
Swarmlord and Doom of Malantai have become two virtually mandatory non-special Special Characters. When a Special Character becomes a no brainer option, it ceases to be a 'Special' Character.
Swarmlord and Doom are hardly "mandatory". If people in your area don't use anything else then they must be really bad at list-writing, because there are so many other viable builds without them.
So, "just use counts as" is your best answer?
Well, yeah. It's a much easier and way more reasonable solution than trying to force people not to use them, or trying in vain to convince GW that they shouldn't be making money on the SC models.
I agree though, you shouldn't "require" characters to field special lists, but that's how GW designed the rules. Probably since no one would pay $20+ for a single figure if all it was going to do was collect dust on a shelf and look pretty.
But yeah, like I said that's how GW designed the rules, and it's not going to change anytime soon. So the best option in my opinion, if you want to keep playing the game, is just deal with it, and that's how I deal with it. Instead of raging because Vulkan is leading an army of Ultramarines, I just assume it's an Ultramarine character and make up my own name for him. Smurfy McNotvulkan.
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Post by: kenshin620
Sidstyler wrote:
I agree though, you shouldn't "require" characters to field special lists, but that's how GW designed the rules. Probably since no one would pay $20+ for a single figure if all it was going to do was collect dust on a shelf and look pretty.
Like lizardmen or skaven SC?
Anyways I think we're going off topic now
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Post by: Kingsley
Ironically, Dark Eldar were actually the first modern (post-2nd ed) list to have the "special character changes your army type" mechanic (hello, Lelith!). That being said, it isn't a bad mechanic-- in mu opinion, it certainly beats the "binder full of White Dwarf clippings" or "choose your advantages and fake disadvantage" system that was (over)used during 3.5th and 4th edition.
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Post by: Gwar!
Fetterkey wrote:Ironically, Dark Eldar were actually the first modern (post-2nd ed) list to have the "special character changes your army type" mechanic (hello, Lelith!). That being said, it isn't a bad mechanic-- in mu opinion, it certainly beats the "binder full of White Dwarf clippings" or "choose your advantages and fake disadvantage" system that was (over)used during 3.5th and 4th edition.
Mind = Blown  JUST AS PLANNED!
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Post by: wuestenfux
Scourges
Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau
Scourges moving to Fast Attack is a logical move.
But haywire grenade launchers seem to be a joke, right?
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Post by: padixon
wuestenfux wrote:Scourges
Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau
Scourges moving to Fast Attack is a logical move.
But haywire grenade launchers seem to be a joke, right?
I know right? hmmm....should we shoot our Str8 *lance* weapon or a haywire nade? It may be a cheap upgrade for use when you give them splinter cannons maybe.
But yeah, I would take the Dark lance over the haywire nade launcher any day. Unless the haywire nade got a serious boost.
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Post by: Luthon1234
Well, depending on whether the launcher are the same as normal haywire grenades, I'd actually want those over Dark lances. Instead of glancing on a 4+ on armor 12 and beyond they would glance on a 2+ and pen on a 6, less chance to pen but higher chance of not doing anything at all to whatever your shooting at.
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Post by: Sarigar
Aren't Dark Lances still considered a Heavy, or will the 'Jetpack' rule make the unit Relentless. Now, if we can get Relentless DE with Dark Lances, I'm all ears.
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Post by: Gwar!
Sarigar wrote:Aren't Dark Lances still considered a Heavy, or will the 'Jetpack' rule make the unit Relentless. Now, if we can get Relentless DE with Dark Lances, I'm all ears.
...
It is in the rulebook you know.
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Post by: Gitzbitah
David Bowie in Space? Blast, I just may have to check this codex out.
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Post by: Gwar!
If it looks anything like the one on the left, I'll be pissed. 
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Post by: wuestenfux
The new 'dex eventually allows to make a Harlie army,
based on Harlies in Venoms and Wyches as troops.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
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Post by: wuestenfux
chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
Looks like a very vage information.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Frgt/10 just gave us the name of the fourth non- SC HQ: Haemunculus Ancient which is quite different from Haemunculus.
And Vect costs more than before, about as much as Mephiston ... without his Dais!
And many SCs have ID weapons.
Small tidbit:
The Dude over at Warseer still lists only 2 characters, 2 other HQ and Scourges as HS. But instead of updating his summary, he posts this:
"A lot of the questions being asked recently have been answered in the summary for some time."
So if you want to read the relevant information of the Warseer thread (and others), better look here 
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Post by: Luthon1234
Kroothawk wrote:Frgt/10 just gave us the name of the fourth non- SC HQ: Haemunculus Ancient which is quite different from Haemunculus.
And Vect costs more than before, about as much as Mephiston ... without his Dais!
And many SCs have ID weapons.
Small tidbit:
The Dude over at Warseer still lists only 2 characters, 2 other HQ and Scourges as HS. But instead of updating his summary, he posts this:
"A lot of the questions being asked recently have been answered in the summary for some time."
So if you want to read the relevant information of the Warseer thread (and others), better look here
So does this mean vect can come with a dais or not? If so awesome I can reuse my extra vect thrones again if not sucks I won't ever get to use my old vect model again.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Does that mean that Vect can come on foot?
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Post by: Kroothawk
The Dais is certainly optional, so it seems he can come on foot.
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Post by: Luthon1234
Kroothawk wrote:The Dais is certainly optional, so it seems he can come on foot.
Wow thats kinda kool. Though not to get confused though is this kinda like the space marine SC that can jump out of his tank, or is he like Calgar where he can take different types of power armor?
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Post by: Archonate
chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex. There's never been any good reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
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Post by: Kroothawk
He can chose to take a Dais or not, that's all I know. And I am not familiar with Smurfs
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Post by: wana10
Archonate wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex. There's never been any good reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
Except that didn't the Venom first show up in the Harlequin codex?
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Post by: wuestenfux
wana10 wrote:Archonate wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex. There's never been any good reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
Except that didn't the Venom first show up in the Harlequin codex?
Very true.
If the Venom is a HS unit, the Harlies will have access anyway.
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Post by: Gwar!
wuestenfux wrote:wana10 wrote:Archonate wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex. There's never been any good reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
Except that didn't the Venom first show up in the Harlequin codex?
Very true.
If the Venom is a HS unit, the Harlies will have access anyway.
Unless it says "No Space Clowns allowed" on it.
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Post by: Hulksmash
It's far to large for the space clowns. They must ride in the tiny car!
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Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
I was hoping to have some Harlies but am going off the idea if all you get when they fire their weapons is a shower of confetti or a flag that says, BANG!
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Post by: wuestenfux
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:I was hoping to have some Harlies but am going off the idea if all you get when they fire their weapons is a shower of confetti or a flag that says, BANG!
Sorry, but I guess you meant Scourges, right?
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Post by: Archonate
wana10 wrote:Archonate wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex. There's never been any good reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
Except that didn't the Venom first show up in the Harlequin codex?
You mean in 2nd Edition? Because GW adheres very strictly to 2nd Edition rules and fluff?
As I said, there's never been any GOOD reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
While we're giving Harlies things they don't have, I declare that they get whizzbang grenades, and the Death Jester can upgrade his weapon to a bottlerocket launcher.
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Post by: Gathering Storm
Archonate wrote:wana10 wrote:Archonate wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex. There's never been any good reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
Except that didn't the Venom first show up in the Harlequin codex?
You mean in 2nd Edition? Because GW adheres very strictly to 2nd Edition rules and fluff?
As I said, there's never been any GOOD reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
While we're giving Harlies things they don't have, I declare that they get whizzbang grenades, and the Death Jester can upgrade his weapon to a bottlerocket launcher.
Actually, the experimental 3.2 Beta Harlequin Codex had the Venom in it.......
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Post by: ph34r
Archonate wrote:You mean in 2nd Edition? Because GW adheres very strictly to 2nd Edition rules and fluff?
As I said, there's never been any GOOD reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
While we're giving Harlies things they don't have, I declare that they get whizzbang grenades, and the Death Jester can upgrade his weapon to a bottlerocket launcher.
So... Just because the only place a unit has been seen before is in the harlequin codex, and that is where it was originally introduced, and fluffed as being a part of, doesn't mean it's a harlequin unit?
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Post by: Rymafyr
Not once retconning is applied. But less about Harlies and their previous incarnations and more about the new DE rules.
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Post by: evilsponge
GW changes things all the time, odds are it's been re-conned into something else. In fact GW changes things more often than they keep things the same. The venom isn't going to be a harli transport, just let it go
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Post by: kenshin620
So Harlie Venoms, the lesser known Space Wolf Leman Russ?
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Post by: wana10
Archonate wrote:wana10 wrote:Archonate wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:Rumor was that Harlies wouldn't have access to the Venom, only certain units from the rest of the codex would.
That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex. There's never been any good reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
Except that didn't the Venom first show up in the Harlequin codex?
You mean in 2nd Edition? Because GW adheres very strictly to 2nd Edition rules and fluff?
As I said, there's never been any GOOD reason to think that the Venom is a Harlequin vehicle.
While we're giving Harlies things they don't have, I declare that they get whizzbang grenades, and the Death Jester can upgrade his weapon to a bottlerocket launcher.
I'm sorry, you said never, not "never in 4th or 5th edition". Such a pity my showing you your error caused you obvious mental distress.
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Post by: Leggy
Just to clarify, there has NEVER been a Harlequin codex published. It was only an army list available in the citadel journal (did it ever even get chapter approved status?).
The venom seems to be more of a rejected idea that's been recycled and repurposed instead of some massive change to he fluff.
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Post by: puma713
Isn't Urien Rakarth an unparalleled beastmaster in Fantasy for Dark Elves?
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Post by: Sigmatron
He's the Master Haemonuculus for the Dark Eldar. I don't know about the Dark Elves.
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Post by: puma713
Huh, yeah, from the 7th. Ed. Dark Elf Codex:
"Rakarth is the most accomplished beastmaster in the whole of Naggaroth. When Rakarth was just a child his father was attempting to break and train the mighty Black Dragon Bracchus." Etc., etc.
Maybe Urien is his late great ancestor
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Post by: Amaya
Can Harlequins take a dedicated transport?
19754
Post by: puma713
Amaya wrote:Can Harlequins take a dedicated transport?
Not if they're identical in every way to the Eldar Codex Harlies, which has been the case in the rumors thus far.
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Post by: Mr Mystery
Thurs/Fri Books will be in UK store I reckon, seeing as Advanced Orders go up Tuesday, then we can all have a relaxing read.
N.B. Stated UK stores, as I don't know how Black Boxes work outside the UK!
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Post by: Powerguy
I know my local GW already have the book but I haven't been able to get in to see it yet. Officially they can't show it off until the 5th, when preorders go up.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Archonate wrote:That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex.
Why?
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but we already have units that are slightly different between Codices despite sharing the same names (Storm Shields and Land Raiders, to name but a few), so why should the Harlequins be exempt from that?
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Post by: Gwar!
H.B.M.C. wrote:Archonate wrote:That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex.
Why?
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but we already have units that are slightly different between Codices despite sharing the same names (Storm Shields and Land Raiders, to name but a few), so why should the Harlequins be exempt from that?
Games workshop are run by Xenos and Chaos hating Chimpanzees with ADHD? 
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Not only that, but in situations like the Eldar or SM where the same unit is present in multiple codecies, it makes it impossible for GW to balance units if they have to keep them identical.
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Post by: Lordkillyou
im for one is so glade that the new archon is convertable with the wych sprues and tthe warrior sprues which means converting up any of the new specail characters would be easy im planning to buying 2 archon and convert them to be specail chaarcter and proberly buy a 3rd one to be a normal archon
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
chaos0xomega wrote:... it makes it impossible for GW to balance units if they have to keep them identical.
Yeah. I'm sure that's the reason.
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Post by: Archonate
H.B.M.C. wrote:Archonate wrote:That's how it should be. Harlies should be identical to the ones in the Eldar Codex.
Why?
I'm not saying I disagree with you, but we already have units that are slightly different between Codices despite sharing the same names (Storm Shields and Land Raiders, to name but a few), so why should the Harlequins be exempt from that?
That's why I said 'should', and not 'will'.
I'm exercising faith that GW knows if they give something extra to Harlies in the DE Codex, there will be a FAQ explosion and rampant illegal tournament lists of innocent confused players.
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Post by: Snord
The new Dark Eldar models haven't even been released yet, and already there's a discussion about what we're not going to get 
There is no 'never' when it comes to filling model gaps in codexes. They can clearly do a model for anything if they want to, and presumably have lots of models designed and sitting on the shelf awaiting a decision on whether to release them. It's just a question of when, and with so many other more pressing demands on their limited resources (new Grey Knights, probably a revised Necron range, presumably new Tau as well) it might be a while before we see some of the gaps filled. And a special character which requires a large and elaborate model, like Vect (or Wazzdakka, the Ork special character on a bike), would be low priority.
It looks to me as though GW are using the plastic boxed games to fill some gaps in their model ranges, in particular the HQ models. The Orks and Skaven now have plastic HQ models on that basis. It's not ideal - the plastic Warboss is pretty average, and it's difficult to make these models look uniquge - but given the relatively low cost of the boxed sets (and the fact that you can usually get a specific model from these sets through trades), it will tide us over for a while. I doubt HQ multi-part kits sell as well as units or vehicles, so they willl tend to do them once everything else in the range is done. But I don't think we've seen the end of them. An Ork Warboss/Big Mek kit would be very versatile, and would (I think) be popular, assuming the Ork stuff is selling well. I'd guess they'd want to see how DE sales went before they produced an Archon along those lines.
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Post by: wuestenfux
chaos0xomega wrote:Not only that, but in situations like the Eldar or SM where the same unit is present in multiple codecies, it makes it impossible for GW to balance units if they have to keep them identical.
That's a good point.
But Harlies are Harlies and behave in the same way independent of the codex.
For me, Harlies are not a must-have in the DE 'dex.
However, I'm curious to see if the Venom is similar to that in Gav's experimental Harlie codex.
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Post by: JOHIRA
wuestenfux wrote:But Harlies are Harlies and behave in the same way independent of the codex.
Must they?
Background-wise: I can easily imagine a scenario where the Troupe tailors the stories they perform for different audiences, as their great Harlequin understands that different groups will fail to understand the lesson unless it is presented in a certain way. For Craftworld Eldar, that means re-enacting the mythic cycles and great wars and heroes of the past. This way every Eldar can see themselves as repeating the cycle of past victories and learning lessons from past defeats... in effect, they subsume their identity and individual desires into a mythic role to perform for the good of their craftworld. Such a presentation would surely be unpalatable for Dark Eldar audiences, so if Harlequins are allowed to perform for Dark Eldar then they must adapt their stories. If the Harlequins are able to adapt their primary role (performing, teaching) to fit their audience, then surely they can adapt their secondary role (fighting) to fit their audience.
Rules-wise: As the two codeces use completely independent rules, there's no need for them to match.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
The other thing to remember is we still don't know what the new fluff of the Dark Eldar is, so speculating on how the Harli's interact with them is a bit pointless.
14076
Post by: MVBrandt
Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.
Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.
Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
MVBrandt wrote:Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.
Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.
Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.
+1
32907
Post by: Nvs
The only concern about the Harlequins should be if when the Eldar codex is redone, if they would (hopefully) remain unchanged again.
It feels like they are a unit thrown in there for the sake of the community as opposed to something either codex is being balanced around.
Personally, I'd prefer it stay that was instead of them invalidating units like Banshees, Wyches, Scorpions, etc.
Have fun with them, or play 'counts as' if you're having issues with them. But I would rather seem them removed at this rate.
26519
Post by: xttz
wuestenfux wrote:But Harlies are Harlies and behave in the same way independent of the codex.
In the same manner that Terminators behave the same way in the Space Wolves, Blood Angels and Space Marine codexes?
24990
Post by: Skarboy
MVBrandt wrote:Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.
Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.
Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.
Your post has so much common sense and logic that it all but guarantees the Harlequins will be point for point, stat for stat, option for option identical to the Eldar codex. 
34566
Post by: Lordkillyou
Skarboy wrote:MVBrandt wrote:Have to wait and see, but practicality and rules balance should take precedence here. Harlies are not really quite right anymore due to the age of their codex; not amending them for the current balance of the game would be absurd.
Those with a fluff-based attachment to the rules being indentical, try this: use your imagination. Isn't that the whole point of attaching to fluff and such anyway? If the Harlies are in there EXACTLY as they are now in the Eldar dex, they'll be EXACTLY as subpar a choice as in the Eldar dex, and as a result have no real purpose for being in the dex BEYOND fluff ... and that seems silly.
Cross your fingers, in fact, that they ARE better and thus different; the more competitively selectable every option in the dex is, the more it will naturally de-emphasize the BS division that exists between perceived "fluffbunnies" and perceived "WAACers." It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.
Your post has so much common sense and logic that it all but guarantees the Harlequins will be point for point, stat for stat, option for option identical to the Eldar codex.
yup they are since at gamesday uk they said they copy and pasted from the eldar codex
24990
Post by: Skarboy
Lordkillyou wrote:yup they are since at gamesday uk they said they copy and pasted from the eldar codex
I don't believe the preview had points costs attached or that it was discussed, so that could be a way that the statlines, options, etc. are there, but they drop the cost to something more in line with the rest of the game. Harlequins aren't very good as presented in the Craftworld Eldar book, but they might be tempting at 4 pts less per model (basically the cost of getting Kisses on everyone).
34566
Post by: Lordkillyou
Skarboy wrote:Lordkillyou wrote:yup they are since at gamesday uk they said they copy and pasted from the eldar codex
I don't believe the preview had points costs attached or that it was discussed, so that could be a way that the statlines, options, etc. are there, but they drop the cost to something more in line with the rest of the game. Harlequins aren't very good as presented in the Craftworld Eldar book, but they might be tempting at 4 pts less per model (basically the cost of getting Kisses on everyone).
belive in what you beleive not my fault if i am right and your wrong
24990
Post by: Skarboy
Lordkillyou wrote:belive in what you beleive not my fault if i am right and your wrong
It's not about what people believe, the points costs have not been verified yet. The preview codex at GD UK did not have points included. Eldar codex entries are, by and large, over-costed, so it would not surprise me to see a small points cost adjustment accompany identical rules. We'll see. I'd see little point in getting Harlequins for the points and options they have in the current Eldar codex, especially with the competition in the Elite slots from Incubi, Mandrakes, elite Wyches, elite Warriors, etc. except solely for fluff reasons.
34566
Post by: Lordkillyou
Skarboy wrote:Lordkillyou wrote:belive in what you beleive not my fault if i am right and your wrong
It's not about what people believe, the points costs have not been verified yet. The preview codex at GD UK did not have points included. Eldar codex entries are, by and large, over-costed, so it would not surprise me to see a small points cost adjustment accompany identical rules. We'll see. I'd see little point in getting Harlequins for the points and options they have in the current Eldar codex, especially with the competition in the Elite slots from Incubi, Mandrakes, elite Wyches, elite Warriors, etc. except solely for fluff reasons.
well they been telling people there just cut and paste it from the eldar codex so ur right about it not being there but there told people they cut and paste it from the eldar codex
24990
Post by: Skarboy
Lordkillyou wrote: well they been telling people there just cut and paste it from the eldar codex so ur right about it not being there but there told people they cut and paste it from the eldar codex
I know what they've said, but GW certainly has misled us all before, as well as left out critical bits (such as points costs) in their previews. Doesn't really matter, but I'm curious as to what the Harlequins will be like in the codex and if they'll even have a point/role compared to all the other new and improved DE units.
30036
Post by: del'Vhar
They will likely be exactly the same as in the Eldar codex, then get updated with a PDF/Errata if GW feels the need.
I think thats probably the best way of doing it.
25141
Post by: Chibi Bodge-Battle
Would it not be just as easy to print the new stats in a brand new book and issue the PDF for the Eldar?
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:Would it not be just as easy to print the new stats in a brand new book and issue the PDF for the Eldar?
GW think that this is 1987 and no-one has the internet. This is why they release Errata once for each army and update it every 10 years thereafter.
19754
Post by: puma713
MVBrandt wrote:
It won't happen, probably, but if every possible bulid in a dex was more or less competitive, we'd all be in a happier place. Keeping a choice NONcompetitive just to make it match an outdated entry in an outdated dex is ... well, silly.
Asking for every single build in a codex to be competitive is just as silly, though. Can you really ask that every combination is competitive as the next? While I am a firm believer in the general makes the list, not the other way around and that no codex entry is a complete waste, to say that you want every build to stand on equal ground is impossible.
Some units are good, some units are great. The good ones get sifted down through the sieve that is listbuilding/playtesting and some are left on the bottom. I don't agree with Skarboy above that Harlequins are one of those units (I have used them with great success), but I know what you're getting at. Not every unit can be TH/ SS terminators. That's what makes codices like Eldar one of the most challenging and, I'd argue, most rewarding. You can make most builds work. Will one be as competitive as another? Maybe not. Not until you've honed it to the point that it could be.
But trying to balance every single unit in every single dex is what leads to Codex creep. Look at the same mechanic in MMORPGs. Game developers create classes and are harped upon to make each and every class balanced. When they realize one class is more powerful than another, they nerf the powerful class and buff the weaker ones, trying to get them on equal ground. Then, another build becomes the most powerful and they nerf that build and buff others. This goes on and on and on.
But, in a game like 40K, where rulebooks can't be "nerfed" necessarily, the only outcome is Codex creep. To keep the next codex competitive (and therefore, selling models), you must make it as powerful if not a hint moreso than its predecessors. Its the same example above, without the "nerfing" mechanic. It keeps going and going and going until you hit a new Edition where the rules change to upheave all of the codices.
I, for one, am happy that they are equal to Eldar quins (if, in fact, they are). Believe it or not, some -do- play for fluff and may take them even though the powergamers and netlisters tell them that they are poor choices. I think it is a nod, not to the fluffy players, but to the gaming community - knowing that the Eldar fanbase might be in some sort of uproar for the next 2-3 years while they wait on a new codex. I think that it is one of the few times that I've seen GW take other parts of the fanbase into account when releasing a new product.
Of course, this could all be blown out of the water if the harlequins are not, in fact, copied from the Eldar dex.
20867
Post by: Just Dave
Pretty much agree with that Puma, not everything has to be competitive.
You wanted Harlequins in your DE Codex, so what if they aren't the best (although they are still good), you've got the extra customisation.
It's for this level of customisation that I believe Fan-dexes should be over-powered.
Even so, Harlequins aren't a bad unit, although without trying to stir this any further, they may suffer without Fortune.
1047
Post by: Defiler
I can personally think of a few uses a Harlequin unit could achieve that won't overlap with existing De units, and even just for the solidarity and background reasons : I love the fact they are included.
I'm not disappointed they didn't get a 5th edition buff. I think they are a fine unit, they just have a higher skill ceiling now than before in 4th edition when they would just click on a unit and it would disappear, then consolidate into the next neighboring unit.
17718
Post by: Drk_Oblitr8r
Doesn't Lilith dodge bullets now?
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
Drk_Oblitr8r wrote:Doesn't Lilith dodge bullets now?
When she's ready, she won't need to.
24190
Post by: rodgers37
Are Harlequins allowed to jump into transports (even if their not allowed dedicated...) or do they have a rule not allowing that? (i know in general you can have another unit in a non-dedicated transport....)
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
I think that it is one of the few times that I've seen GW take other parts of the fanbase into account when releasing a new product.
Except GW have been catering to fluffy gamers for years.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Another tidbit on the two missing new HS units, by Jonathan =I=, confirmed by Frgt/10:
Razorwing Fighter
Flyer.
Voidraven Bomber
Flyer. It is armour 11 with duel strength 9 Ap 2 dark lances, can move 36 inches, fire all weapons when moving 12, can drop a strength 8 bomb along its flight path. Costs as much as Rhino plus Ravager
The lighter Talos is called Cronos.
20867
Post by: Just Dave
Sidstyler wrote:I think that it is one of the few times that I've seen GW take other parts of the fanbase into account when releasing a new product.
Except GW have been catering to fluffy gamers for years.
Rightly so IMHO. I'd personally rather have everything fluffy than competitive. I'm looking at you Sanguinor.
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
Why can't it be both?
Oh, right, it's IMPOSSIBLE and it's stupid to even TRY!
20867
Post by: Just Dave
I agree, both would be good. But if you could have one or the other...
19754
Post by: puma713
Sidstyler wrote:Why can't it be both?
Oh, right, it's IMPOSSIBLE and it's stupid to even TRY!
If that is directed at me, then you're implying something I didn't say. I said trying to balance each and every unit is impossible, because by the nature of a strategy, point-based system, some units are going to fall by the wayside. It -is- impossible to make every unit as good as the next. That's not a matter of fluff. Fluff doesn't even come into the equation.
20867
Post by: Just Dave
Update on Lelith that I haven't seen before, off the GW website:
Games-Workshop wrote: With Weapon Skill 9 and four attacks which ignore armour saves, plus an extra one for each point her weapon skill is higher than her foe's, Lelith can murder entire squads.
DAMN! That's like one uber hand-bag slap!
10093
Post by: Sidstyler
Just Dave wrote:I agree, both would be good. But if you could have one or the other...
I'd rather have competitive, since "fluffy" models usually never leave the shelf. Don't like spending all that money on toys I never get to play with.
32598
Post by: BloodThirSTAR
Harlequins charging out of an open topped vehicle will be competitive.
20867
Post by: Just Dave
except so far they are very unlikely to be allowed to use transports. If they can then yes, that would be good. However at the current time it's highly doubted they can.
19754
Post by: puma713
Interesting that Harlequins are not listed under the Elite section of the Dark Eldar army dropdown on GW.com. Even though most of the things are pre-order (save the Talos and the Haemonculi), I would think they'd still be added.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit on the two missing new HS units, by Jonathan =I=, confirmed by Frgt/10:
Razorwing Fighter
Flyer.
Voidraven Bomber
Flyer. It is armour 11 with duel strength 9 Ap 2 dark lances, can move 36 inches, fire all weapons when moving 12, can drop a strength 8 bomb along its flight path. Costs as much as Rhino plus Ravager
The lighter Talos is called Cronos.
I'm confused that flyers entered the DE codex.
No other race has flyers on the regular GW basis.
Flyer entered only via FW.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
wuestenfux wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit on the two missing new HS units, by Jonathan =I=, confirmed by Frgt/10:
Razorwing Fighter
Flyer.
Voidraven Bomber
Flyer. It is armour 11 with duel strength 9 Ap 2 dark lances, can move 36 inches, fire all weapons when moving 12, can drop a strength 8 bomb along its flight path. Costs as much as Rhino plus Ravager
The lighter Talos is called Cronos.
I'm confused that flyers entered the DE codex.
No other race has flyers on the regular GW basis.
Flyer entered only via FW.
Well, there's a first time for everything.
5394
Post by: reds8n
From Wargamer Au, Ta to Mr. Ronin..
Have had a good read through the new codex today and can confirm many things. Grotesques are still in, but are now BRUTAL. Dont think theres a model for them yet but they are ogren sized. They have littler cousins called wracks, which are still pretty decent, but nothing on the S/T5 3W monsters with FNP that grotesques are.
Jetbikes are still FA but get an even bigger turbo boost (36") and have even less armour (5+) on the plus side, they are actually good in combat now with pistol and hand weapon as well as their drugs. They also get to make D3 S4 hits PER JETBIKE on any unit they move over when turbo boosting, and this can be upgraded to D6. On the VERY down side, characters can no longer be mounted on jetbikes.
Scourges are now FA as well and have some awesome gear. They still deep strike and have jump packs, but now come standard with a assault 3 18" splinter weapon and can have heat lances (18" S6 AP1 Lance, Melta) thats right, you can now deep strike a squad with 4 lance/melta weapons!! And they have a 4+ armour save.
Hellions are all sorts of worthwhile now. Their boards have a special shooting attack that is (from memory) S5 AP4 assault 2 and their weapons are funky as well. Best of all, if you charge a unit with an IC in it, on a 2+ when you make your hit and run attack, they take that character with them and fight him on his own next turn!!
They do indeed get a fighter and a bomber, much in the vein on valk/vens but WAY cooler. They have aerial assault rules that mean they can move and fire all their weapons, they can also take a range of missile, my favorite of course being implosion missiles. Small blast, all models touched by it take a characteristics test on their wounds and if they fail it they die. INSTANT DEATH DIE!!! Brutal.
The talos is still in and comes kitted out to be even cooler, but more importantly comes with a smaller cousin, the parasite. Which is pretty decent in combat, great at shooting, and most importantly, if it causes wounds from shooting, gives pain tokens to nearby DE units.
This leads me neatly to pain tokens. If a unit wipes out a non vehicle unit, it gets a pain token. There are 3 effects from having pain tokens, with the 1st one you gain FNP. The 2nd you get gives you furious charge, and the 3rd makes you fearless. These effects are cumulative so can be awesome.
Even better, characters and units combine pain tokens. So a unit with one and a character with one would both count as having 2 if they joined. And Haemonuclus and a couple of other things come with one automatically.
Incubi are indeed now elites and have 2 attacks base, and their place as bodyguards has been taken by the 'Court of the Archon' which is a retinue like an inquisitors. There are many options in there for increasing the poison of your weapons, aliens with FNP and so on and so forth. Great fun.
Yes Wyches and Warriors have 'vamped up' versions that are elites, almost the same but all of them have LD9 and 2A and have options to take more special weapons.
Sadly disintegrators are no longer plasma cannons, they are S5 AP2 Heavy 3. Still nasty, but they were worse. On the plus side, ravagers are now allowed to move 12" and fire all weapons biggrin.gif
There are many MANY cool things you can do to these units but im not going into it all now, this should be more than enough to make people drool enough to start preordering. I know I have biggrin.gif
Cheers all, Ronin
You'll note a few odds and sods ( ie Lilith ) rules on the pre order info too, including weapon options etc etc.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Scottywan82 wrote:wuestenfux wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit on the two missing new HS units, by Jonathan =I=, confirmed by Frgt/10:
Razorwing Fighter
Flyer.
Voidraven Bomber
Flyer. It is armour 11 with duel strength 9 Ap 2 dark lances, can move 36 inches, fire all weapons when moving 12, can drop a strength 8 bomb along its flight path. Costs as much as Rhino plus Ravager
The lighter Talos is called Cronos.
I'm confused that flyers entered the DE codex.
No other race has flyers on the regular GW basis.
Flyer entered only via FW.
Well, there's a first time for everything.
There seem to be too many competing units in the HS section.
Three Ravagers will eventually be the best choice, unless they can be fielded in squadrons.
5610
Post by: Noisy_Marine
Can't say I'm happy to see fliers coming into regular games of 40k. The rest sounds pretty cool.
1918
Post by: Scottywan82
wuestenfux wrote:
There seem to be too many competing units in the HS section.
Three Ravagers will eventually be the best choice, unless they can be fielded in squadrons.
I admire your confidence, but I'm not so certain.
17692
Post by: Farmer
Can't wait to see Vects new rules, i hope he isn't a very overpriced Archon, i want this guy to be a total monster!
105
Post by: Sarigar
Just Dave wrote:except so far they are very unlikely to be allowed to use transports. If they can then yes, that would be good. However at the current time it's highly doubted they can.
Remember with 5th ed, anything can ride in any vehicle. On first turn, just load up the Harlies into an empty Raider and they're set.
The rules posted so far seem very, very interesting. I'm really looking forward to how this army will play out. As far as Grotesques (that are Ogryn) sized but having no current model, how about using those Skaven beasts out of the new Fantasy boxset?
538
Post by: greenskinned git
I don't think you can say 3 ravagers will be the best. Since talos could run in 5th I prefered running 3 of them. Running behind a wall of the new grotesques for cover in a heamonculi style list may be a good choice.
Of course until we see rules and points costs, who knows.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Farmer wrote:Can't wait to see Vects new rules, i hope he isn't a very overpriced Archon, i want this guy to be a total monster!
In an RTT last Saturday, my Assault Termies managed to charge Vect.
He died a horrible death.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
Oooh! Dark Eldar flyers (that we'll never see kits for). Can't wait to (not) see them.
24645
Post by: Luthon1234
I'm a little worried that we have now little to no horde killing weapons now that the DIssie is essentially gone. All of my ravagers suddenly became useless : [
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Oh man, this is looking awesome!
Is it bad though the first thing I thought was "I bet they forgot how to tell us how to deal with enemy units with more than 1 weapon skill" for Lilith's rule?
24645
Post by: Luthon1234
Gwar! wrote:Oh man, this is looking awesome!
Is it bad though the first thing I thought was "I bet they forgot how to tell us how to deal with enemy units with more than 1 weapon skill" for Lilith's rule?
If I'm doing the rule right, she would get 12 attacks when charging fire warriors, 10 attacks when charging ork boys! She seems like she is destined to slay only troops which isn't bad in itself, but even going against a higher WS character like a archon she would still be getting 7 attacks when charging. That's assuming I'm doing that right.
17692
Post by: Farmer
wuestenfux wrote:Farmer wrote:Can't wait to see Vects new rules, i hope he isn't a very overpriced Archon, i want this guy to be a total monster!
In an RTT last Saturday, my Assault Termies managed to charge Vect.
He died a horrible death.
I'm talking about the new codex rules for him, not some guy you vsed last week.
21932
Post by: ThePhish
Luthon1234 wrote:I'm a little worried that we have now little to no horde killing weapons now that the DIssie is essentially gone. All of my ravagers suddenly became useless : [
Horde killers now = incubi with their flamer template weapon and a boat load of power wep attacks.
34168
Post by: Amaya
I'm not seeing Lelith's rules up on GW US, but I hope what you've posted is true. She should be the best CC SC in the game.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Amaya wrote:I'm not seeing Lelith's rules up on GW US, but I hope what you've posted is true. She should be the best CC SC in the game.
It's part of the blurb on the UK site:
7893
Post by: LucasLAD
Luthon1234 wrote:I'm a little worried that we have now little to no horde killing weapons now that the DIssie is essentially gone. All of my ravagers suddenly became useless : [
Eh? I'll take a 10 man wych squad charging with the + d6 attacks weapon option for horde killing every day. Don't forget that volume of attacks can be VERY anti horde as well. Plus doing a jetbike boost over a gaunt squad would be devestating.
34168
Post by: Amaya
@ Gwar!, thanks, now I see it. Yep, that is freaking disgusting. Going to be 10/11 attacks vs Marines on the charge. Depends on if they counted 2x CCW bonus in that 4 attacks deal.
17718
Post by: Drk_Oblitr8r
Gwar, it's the highest.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
What I want to know is though are the extra attacks "Bonus" attacks or are they part of here attacks stat (and so limited to 10+2 [bonus for weapons and/or assaulting]). If they are bonus, and she has 2 CCW, she would get 13 attacks vs a unit of FW. 
1523
Post by: Saldiven
wuestenfux wrote:Kroothawk wrote:Another tidbit on the two missing new HS units, by Jonathan =I=, confirmed by Frgt/10:
Razorwing Fighter
Flyer.
Voidraven Bomber
Flyer. It is armour 11 with duel strength 9 Ap 2 dark lances, can move 36 inches, fire all weapons when moving 12, can drop a strength 8 bomb along its flight path. Costs as much as Rhino plus Ravager
The lighter Talos is called Cronos.
I'm confused that flyers entered the DE codex.
No other race has flyers on the regular GW basis.
Flyer entered only via FW.
I'm not surprised.
It used to be that DE were the fastest army out there. With new codices that have come out and with various changes in rules, several other armies have become just as fast as the DE. Now, every army can run, and armies like Orks and BA have vehicles that are effectively just as fast.
The addition of fliers, 36" turbo boosting jetbikes, and the proposed + 2d6" movement for Raiders has re-established DE as the fastest army out there.
21932
Post by: ThePhish
If the armies keep getting faster, they'll eventually change the size of the standard game board. Faster armies cover the board a lot, well...faster.
7893
Post by: LucasLAD
Overall I'm VERY pleased with this codex so far. There are at LEAST 3 types of armies with the fourth being some type of hybrid list.
Also I'm fairly certain that, barring some atrocity, Lelith will be leading my forces. I mean come ON slam her into just about anything and she's going to decimate it. Plus Marines are going to be hitting on 5's, that's amazing.
1523
Post by: Saldiven
ThePhish wrote:If the armies keep getting faster, they'll eventually change the size of the standard game board. Faster armies cover the board a lot, well...faster.
It wouldn't surprise me. Though, they could also simply decrease the deployment zone area to make the separation between the two armies larger. You could make a corner style deployment with 3' between the two armies fairly easily.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
Two solutions: 1. Make deployment only 6" from the long table edge. We do this even in games w/o DE. 2. Run short board edge games.
21932
Post by: ThePhish
Saldiven wrote:ThePhish wrote:If the armies keep getting faster, they'll eventually change the size of the standard game board. Faster armies cover the board a lot, well...faster.
It wouldn't surprise me. Though, they could also simply decrease the deployment zone area to make the separation between the two armies larger. You could make a corner style deployment with 3' between the two armies fairly easily.
Good point. Especially since they contunually increase the point costs as well which further limits the size of the army. So physically, you need less room to deploy. Oh welll.
17155
Post by: bhsman
Rymafyr wrote:Two solutions: 1. Make deployment only 6" from the long table edge. We do this even in games w/o DE. 2. Run short board edge games.
I hope none of your friends run footslogging armies.
26476
Post by: RIGHT-Titan
What the real question is, is what does Lelith wound on?
11 attacks are awesome no doubt. If it's poison 4+ you're still only looking maybe 3 or 4 casualties unless her strength is half decent.
She's only S3 in the "current" codex... and I use that term loosely... but the proof of her mansdeath will be what she wounds on.
7893
Post by: LucasLAD
I would like to point out that it doesn't matter how fast you are, you're not going to be out of range the IG long guns with 72" range.
Not to jump the gun, but I'm still not seeing anything that can out fight guard here. Flak guns will be more prominent pending on how much the Meta shifts with DEldar. Also with dirt cheap heavy weapons and the fact that HBolters can still pen our vehicles I don't see a huge change in the guard dominated meta.
All that said, we can kill MEQ better and faster now so we shall see.
Automatically Appended Next Post: RIGHT-Titan wrote:What the real question is, is what does Lelith wound on?
11 attacks are awesome no doubt. If it's poison 4+ you're still only looking maybe 3 or 4 casualties unless her strength is half decent.
She's only S3 in the "current" codex... and I use that term loosely... but the proof of her mansdeath will be what she wounds on.
maybe something akin to the wolf tooth necklace, but instead of hitting on 3+ she wounds on 3+
Nah, that'd be broken.
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Post by: Gwar!
RIGHT-Titan wrote:What the real question is, is what does Lelith wound on?
11 attacks are awesome no doubt. If it's poison 4+ you're still only looking maybe 3 or 4 casualties unless her strength is half decent.
She's only S3 in the "current" codex... and I use that term loosely... but the proof of her mansdeath will be what she wounds on.
She has an agonizer in the current codex, so it's 4+ with no poison re-rolls. If she DOES become 4+ Poison, it will be an improvement. Against T4, she'll get 3.66... wounds, while against T3 she gets 5.5. And lets not forget she is hit on a 5+ against WS4 and 3, and if Wych Weapons keep their rules, against WS8 as well.
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'm not surprised at the fliers. BA's and IG got them. Why not the fastest army in the game? I'm hoping their models are at least set to release for next year with them but it's doubtful if they are doing the Stormraven next year too due to how many sprue they can make a year. Though maybe DE were the exception to that and the extra for the last few years has been used so they can eek out more sprues.
Gotta say I'm loving the rules we've seen. Codex DE here I come!
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Post by: RIGHT-Titan
Gwar! wrote:RIGHT-Titan wrote:What the real question is, is what does Lelith wound on?
11 attacks are awesome no doubt. If it's poison 4+ you're still only looking maybe 3 or 4 casualties unless her strength is half decent.
She's only S3 in the "current" codex... and I use that term loosely... but the proof of her mansdeath will be what she wounds on.
She has an agonizer in the current codex, so it's 4+ with no poison re-rolls.
If she DOES become 4+ Poison, it will be an improvement.
Against T4, she'll get 3.66... wounds, while against T3 she gets 5.5.
And lets not forget she is hit on a 5+ against WS4 and 3, and if Wych Weapons keep their rules, against WS8 as well.
Oh she'll nuke squads no doubt... but at 3-6 wounds a turn she might be pretty easy to tarpit with a big unit of guard or something equally dastardly. I think she's more of a SC hunter potentially. A lot of SCs are WS 5-6 which means she'd be getting a lot of attacks on the charge:
Base Attacks: 4
VS WS 6: +3
Charge: +1
Extra CCW(?): +1
9 Poison attacks/agnoizer/who know (?) on the charge possibly which we already know ignore armor saves... could be pretty tough for a Space Marine to deal with if she can get into his commander's face.
10 Attacks if WS 5. I'm ok with that...
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Post by: wuestenfux
The new minis (Warriors, Wyches, Archon, Raiders) look really cool.
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Post by: oldone
ok leith is well leithel =P i so pre-ordering her now i can't deiced should i go with an all wych army or not XD
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Post by: wuestenfux
oldone wrote:ok leith is well leithel =P i so pre-ordering her now i can't deiced should i go with an all wych army or not XD
This is definitely too early to decide.
The first post promised that DE can be played in three ways: Kabal, Wych cult, and Haemonculi coven.
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Post by: oldone
Well still looks intresting oh this was on the "what new to day post for GW:
In battle a Dark Eldar force is a fantastic sight; they are lightning fast, have lots of firepower and include some of the most lethal close-combat units in the game - not a bad combination. If all that wasn't enough, every time you destroy an enemy unit your army gets stronger. Oh and if you didn't know by now, the new range of miniatures are just jaw dropping, with every model exemplifying the traits of this cruel and murderous race. If you do nothing else today make sure you check out all of the product pages to see just how many options you get on the models, especially with the multi-part plastic kits.
All of the products available for Advance Order today are shown below. Order now and we will ship them out to you for the launch day on the 6th November.
The Codex is a must for Warhammer 40,000 fans. It's packed full of new never-before-read background, as well as all of the new special rules and bestiary information. I was especially taken by the Tale of Eternal Sin, which is really a Dark Eldar timeline but gives you loads of options for campaigns and historical battles. The 'Eavy Metal galleries also include a host of different Kabal paint schemes, giving you plenty of ideas and inspiration. The first of the new plastic sets is the Kabalite Warriors; you get 10 in the box, and it includes absolutely every weapon and wargear option that you need. You can also use it to build the Kabalite Trueborn Elite choice who have 2 Attacks and a higher Leadership, so one box set isn't going to be enough. To transport your Kabalite Warriors and Wyches into battle, you are going to need a Raider or four. The plastic kit is fantastic, easy to assemble and will get your Warriors into battle quickly; the enhanced aethersail upgrade also allows your Raider to move an additional 2D6".
?[img]
And yeah probs is to early to geuss what army to build anyone got any idea about when Stores get the preview codex
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Post by: Gwar!
Oh, and as a Shamless Plug:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/296151.page
If you have seen the codex, help shame GW more!
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Post by: oldone
Well games workshop answer for me appertly i should really read the whole post,because it goes on to say store have the book in this week and this:
If all of that wasn't enough for you, we also have the first look at the second wave of models that you will be able to advance order from October 19th. Be sure to come back all this week as Jes continues to give us the low-down on the Ravager, Hellions, Mandrakes and Urien Rakarth.
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Post by: wuestenfux
What's up with the Decapitator?
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Post by: Rymafyr
The fig that looks like an extracted techmarine is Urien Rakarth, not Decapitator, If that's what you were asking.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Rymafyr wrote:The fig that looks like an extracted techmarine is Urien Rakarth, not Decapitator, If that's what you were asking.
I know that its Urien.
My question is if there will be a model for the Decapitator as well?
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Post by: Rymafyr
wuestenfux wrote:Rymafyr wrote:The fig that looks like an extracted techmarine is Urien Rakarth, not Decapitator, If that's what you were asking.
I know that its Urien.
My question is if there will be a model for the Decapitator as well?
Well, I'd certainly hope so. Given such a drastic change in the squad as a whole conceptually, not making an SC from that group would be sad.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Somehow, the Wyches just aren't working for me. Too bulky, I think.
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Post by: Kroothawk
No model for the decapitator in the first wave, but please take this discussion to the general DE release thread.
Updated the rules rumour summary. Be aware that I will soon quit updating it when everyone has seen the Codex for himself.
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Post by: Nvs
Any news on if Drazhar will allow Incubi to be troops?
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Post by: wuestenfux
Scourges
Deepstrike. Standard with a assault 3 18" splinter weapon and can have heat lances (18" S6 AP1 Lance, Melta). 4+ armour save. Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau.
Great, Scourges get melta weapons.
But it appears that they are rather slow, move 6''?
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Post by: Gwar!
wuestenfux wrote:Scourges
Deepstrike. Standard with a assault 3 18" splinter weapon and can have heat lances (18" S6 AP1 Lance, Melta). 4+ armour save. Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau.
Great, Scourges get melta weapons.
But it appears that they are rather slow, move 6''?
If they are jetpack, they get to JSJ like Tau.
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Post by: Skarboy
Further, if Scourges deepstrike, if they have a jetpack, can they not land (movement phase), fire (shooting phase), 6" move (assault phase)? There might actually be a deepstrike melta unit that doesn't just stand there in the open (with a decent/lucky deepstrike, at least). We'll see.
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Post by: Gwar!
Skarboy wrote:Further, if Scourges deepstrike, if they have a jetpack, can they not land (movement phase), fire (shooting phase), 6" move (assault phase)? There might actually be a deepstrike melta unit that doesn't just stand there in the open (with a decent/lucky deepstrike, at least). We'll see.
I think they can indeed do this, unless they are given a special rule disallowing them to use the assault move (ala XV8 suits).
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Post by: fett14622
Did you all see this on GW
About Lelith:
"Lelith Hesperax is the ideal accompaniment to your Wych squads and she really is a walking weapon. With Weapon Skill 9 and 4 Attacks that ignore armour saves, plus an extra one for each point her Weapon Skill is higher than her foe's, Lelith can murder entire squads."
About the Archon:
Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness
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Post by: Hulksmash
I'm starting to feel like Phil Kelly was pissed that they didn't let him do the new Nids and so has made both of his codexes for this edition absolute death on Nids.....
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Post by: Rymafyr
My mind is racing w/ possible tactics which are hopefully not hard to pull off. Like running Hellions and Scourges together to target IC's. Hellions go in, take the IC, Scourges provide firesupport while the IC is pulled away and slaughtered...MMmmm very tasty. Ofc any good combination would work with Hellions I'm thinking.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I dont really see the Hellion Scourge combo working to well (scourges seem more like an AT or anti-MC type unit). What COULD work well is hellions pulling the IC out with them right to a nearby archon/lelith/unit of incubi.
Of course we should keep in mind that the IC isn't harmed until the opponents turn...
You know, with all the anti-IC stuff and heavy weapons that seem to be available in the army, this may be GW's way of apologizing for all the ridiculous SM characters we see floating around. People will be much less likely to take supercharged special characters, etc. if they are more likely to lose them.
That and all the High strength/lance/melta weapons in the army, we may finally see an end to the predominance of mech (thank god).
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Post by: Farmer
Lelith Hesperax is the ideal accompaniment to your Wych squads and she really is a walking weapon. With Weapon Skill 9 and 4 Attacks that ignore armour saves, plus an extra one for each point her Weapon Skill is higher than her foe's
bye bye marine squad. Automatically Appended Next Post: Gwar! wrote:Amaya wrote:I'm not seeing Lelith's rules up on GW US, but I hope what you've posted is true. She should be the best CC SC in the game.
It's part of the blurb on the UK site:
Pretty much a "YOU MUST BUY THIS MODEL" signed on it...next they will be telling me how useful guardsmen are.
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Post by: Rymafyr
chaos0xomega wrote:I dont really see the Hellion Scourge combo working to well (scourges seem more like an AT or anti-MC type unit). What COULD work well is hellions pulling the IC out with them right to a nearby archon/lelith/unit of incubi.
Of course we should keep in mind that the IC isn't harmed until the opponents turn...
You know, with all the anti-IC stuff and heavy weapons that seem to be available in the army, this may be GW's way of apologizing for all the ridiculous SM characters we see floating around. People will be much less likely to take supercharged special characters, etc. if they are more likely to lose them.
That and all the High strength/lance/melta weapons in the army, we may finally see an end to the predominance of mech (thank god).
It'd take some working, my thought was the Scourges should be able to provide a hail of fire to thin out a unit from where an IC was pulled. I also was thinking how grand it'd be if you have a CC w/ an IC and his unit that was taking forever, just have the Hellions swoop in and pull out the IC leaving the unit to be wiped thereafter.
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Post by: Deadshane1
Bye Bye lance spam too. (not a terrible things, all things considered)
Warriors 1pt more than current, needing 10 models for a Dark Lance option at the cost of a marine Power Fist.
Still not HORRIBLE, but probably better off putting their poison to good use against foot troopers.
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Post by: Irdiumstern
chaos0xomega wrote:I dont really see the Hellion Scourge combo working to well (scourges seem more like an AT or anti-MC type unit). What COULD work well is hellions pulling the IC out with them right to a nearby archon/lelith/unit of incubi.
Of course we should keep in mind that the IC isn't harmed until the opponents turn...
You know, with all the anti-IC stuff and heavy weapons that seem to be available in the army, this may be GW's way of apologizing for all the ridiculous SM characters we see floating around. People will be much less likely to take supercharged special characters, etc. if they are more likely to lose them.
That and all the High strength/lance/melta weapons in the army, we may finally see an end to the predominance of mech (thank god).
Ridiculous SM Characters? Is this another "They get special characters, they must be good!"? Besides, most ridiculous characters have eternal warrior and will be able to handle a squad of unarmored space elf pansies on hoverboards.
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Post by: Deadshane1
Eternal warrior doenst help you vs poison though....
Most stuff that is supposed to be REALLY tough to kill simply has a high toughness and an invuln save attached.
I dont think I'll be adding Dark Lances to Warrior Squads...Splinter cannons...Yep.
Bye Bye thunderwolf cav.
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Post by: Gwar!
Deadshane1 wrote:Bye Bye lance spam too. (not a terrible things, all things considered)
Warriors 1pt more than current, needing 10 models for a Dark Lance option at the cost of a marine Power Fist.
Still not HORRIBLE, but probably better off putting their poison to good use against foot troopers.
Wow... So only 1 DL per unit eh? Or is it 1/10?
And wow, 2.5x the points cost for a DL. Nasty.
I assume you can take a raider though even with 20 models right?
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Post by: Rymafyr
Gwar! wrote:Deadshane1 wrote:Bye Bye lance spam too. (not a terrible things, all things considered)
Warriors 1pt more than current, needing 10 models for a Dark Lance option at the cost of a marine Power Fist.
Still not HORRIBLE, but probably better off putting their poison to good use against foot troopers.
Wow... So only 1 DL per unit eh? Or is it 1/10?
And wow, 2.5x the points cost for a DL. Nasty.
I assume you can take a raider though even with 20 models right?
At least looking at the sprues from the warrior squad, as posted by GW, there is only 1 DL per 10 man squad. Ofc, I also only noted 1 Splinter Cannon, 1 Shredder and 1 other SW. Heat lance maybe? Cause a Splinter Carbine is so close to what a Splinter Cannon does, that it wouldn't make sense to have both available as an upgrade for 1 squad.
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Post by: Kroothawk
Gwar! wrote:Deadshane1 wrote:Bye Bye lance spam too. (not a terrible things, all things considered)
Warriors 1pt more than current, needing 10 models for a Dark Lance option at the cost of a marine Power Fist.
Still not HORRIBLE, but probably better off putting their poison to good use against foot troopers.
Wow... So only 1 DL per unit eh? Or is it 1/10?(...)
I assume you can take a raider though even with 20 models right?
It is 1/10 with a max of 20 Warriors.
And a Raider has a transport capacity of 10, not 20.
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Post by: Deadshane1
Kroothawk wrote:Gwar! wrote:Deadshane1 wrote:Bye Bye lance spam too. (not a terrible things, all things considered)
Warriors 1pt more than current, needing 10 models for a Dark Lance option at the cost of a marine Power Fist.
Still not HORRIBLE, but probably better off putting their poison to good use against foot troopers.
Wow... So only 1 DL per unit eh? Or is it 1/10?(...)
I assume you can take a raider though even with 20 models right?
It is 1/10 with a max of 20 Warriors.
And a Raider has a transport capacity of 10, not 20.
I wondered how they worded it in the codex though.
"Squads numbering 10 or less may take a raider"
OR
"Squads may take a raider"
Big difference.
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Post by: Kroothawk
... or "even units larger than 10 may take a raider, but only 10 fit on it and the rest has to walk behind it. Please keep unit coherence of 1" between miniatures"
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Post by: Kirasu
Not a big surprise on the dark lance pricing.. After all Phil did the eldar book too and obviously believes that S8 lance weapons are worth the same cost
Fine by me.. Dark lance spam was anti-tactics and really pigeon holed DE to be a boring play-and-ebay army
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Post by: Amaya
Kirasu wrote:Not a big surprise on the dark lance pricing.. After all Phil did the eldar book too and obviously believes that S8 lance weapons are worth the same cost
Fine by me.. Dark lance spam was anti-tactics and really pigeon holed DE to be a boring play-and-ebay army
Or just nearly unbeatable at 1500 or less. Yes, you won because you have skill and not because your 20 Lance alpha strike killed everything. >.>
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Irdiumstern wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:I dont really see the Hellion Scourge combo working to well (scourges seem more like an AT or anti-MC type unit). What COULD work well is hellions pulling the IC out with them right to a nearby archon/lelith/unit of incubi.
Of course we should keep in mind that the IC isn't harmed until the opponents turn...
You know, with all the anti-IC stuff and heavy weapons that seem to be available in the army, this may be GW's way of apologizing for all the ridiculous SM characters we see floating around. People will be much less likely to take supercharged special characters, etc. if they are more likely to lose them.
That and all the High strength/lance/melta weapons in the army, we may finally see an end to the predominance of mech (thank god).
Ridiculous SM Characters? Is this another "They get special characters, they must be good!"? Besides, most ridiculous characters have eternal warrior and will be able to handle a squad of unarmored space elf pansies on hoverboards.
I'm talking about things like Mephiston, Vulkan, etc. Not necessarily overpowered by any means, just overused ones that I'd like to see die in a fiery explosion. CSM got a couple too (Kharn, Abaddon).
I assume you can take a raider though even with 20 models right?
I would assume no, in the pics the raiders look pretty large, but you'd be lucky to fit 10 guys on there...
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kirasu wrote:Not a big surprise on the dark lance pricing.. After all Phil did the eldar book too and obviously believes that S8 lance weapons are worth the same cost
Within an Eldar context, and without real S9 r48" Lascannons being available, he just *might* be right. ... he'd be wrong, though. Given the choice, for the same points cost, the Imperial Lascannon is clearly superior to the Eldar one.
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Post by: Kirasu
Oh I agree DD.. I think bright lances are horribly overpiced for what they do :p Im just saying it makes sense
Atleast its a sweet looking model as opposed to the guardian weapon platform
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Post by: chaos0xomega
I dunno, round my parts the bright lance is woefully underused (I only have one in my army, I'm not sure if the other eldar players even have that many). Hopefully he will have realized that somethings gotta give.
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Post by: Kirasu
It would appear realization has not occured due to the points cost in the DE book
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Post by: Farmer
Screw warriors i will be looking into a wych cult army lelith as HQ with the new rule that gives your raider 2d6 plus movement hell yeah!!!
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Post by: chaos0xomega
Kirasu wrote:It would appear realization has not occured due to the points cost in the DE book
Do you know this for sure or are you going from a second hand source?
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Post by: Luthon1234
Well if warriors can still take blaster, and they are improved to 18 instead of 12 I can see people taking raider squads with 5 warriors (didnt say for special weapons just lances). They'll be just as effective as the old.
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Post by: JohnHwangDD
Kirasu wrote:It would appear realization has not occured due to the points cost in the DE book
Or, perhaps, Phil simply doesn't want Eldar to fight effectively at long range...
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Post by: Xca|iber
I'm liking everything but the Implosion missiles, mostly since I'm tired of weapons and abilities that bypass all the normal mechanics of killing models. It's not that they're overpowered (some are certainly stronger against certain opponents, but I digress), I really just don't like how GW is introducing lots of abilities that radically circumvent the existing framework for how models on the table fight.
With abilities that only require a bit of luck to instantly remove expensive, heroic/monstrous models off the table, it gives players even more incentive to mechanize.
Don't think I'm hating on the new rules though. (Assuming they're mostly accurate). I really like everything else I've seen. I just had to point out that little pet peeve of mine.
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Post by: H.B.M.C.
Xca|iber wrote:I really just don't like how GW is introducing lots of abilities that radically circumvent the existing framework for how models on the table fight.
Wouldn't it be great if rather than having lots of different rules for each unit that had slight variations between each one, leading to lots of confusion and exceptions to exceptions, that they instead had a codified list of rules that applied to all armies. You could call them "General Specialist Rules" or.... "Universal Special Rules".
Oh wait...
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Post by: winterman
I dunno, at the same time they have rules for characteristic tests -- why not use them for something other then just Hit and Run?
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Post by: Gwar!
winterman wrote:I dunno, at the same time they have rules for characteristic tests -- why not use them for something other then just Hit and Run?
Huh? Characteristic tests are used for lots of things.
Boon of Mutation, Gift of Chaos and Jaws of t3h Werld Wolf to name a few!
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Post by: kenshin620
Perhaps he meant characteristic tests for USR?
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Post by: Xca|iber
H.B.M.C. wrote:Xca|iber wrote:I really just don't like how GW is introducing lots of abilities that radically circumvent the existing framework for how models on the table fight.
Wouldn't it be great if rather than having lots of different rules for each unit that had slight variations between each one, leading to lots of confusion and exceptions to exceptions, that they instead had a codified list of rules that applied to all armies. You could call them "General Specialist Rules" or.... "Universal Special Rules". Oh wait...
What does that have to do with my post? I was commenting on abilities like Gift of Chaos, JotWW, and all the other ones that are basically Characteristic Test or Death, with no save possible. I mean, I'm happy that the missile at least needs to hit, but it's just that there are a number of abilities now that are of the style: "I pick this model. He tests or dies. End of discussion." At least Gift/Boon have short range. What I'm saying is that this game is about heroic battles. If my opponent can basically say, "regardless of the normal rules for targeting, shooting, wounding, and saves (or some combination of those), I pick your heroic model and he dies," it takes away part of the fun of playing imho. (And it furthers the mechanized atmosphere as players do not want to put their models on the table for fear of what I just described). For example: JotWW - I bypass targeting, shooting, wounding, and saves (leaving only psychic defense and luck). Your unit passes or dies. Gift of Chaos - I bypass targeting, shooting, wounding, and saves (leaving only psychic defense, luck, and kiting). Your unit passes or I get a unit! etc... Implosion missiles (as they are rumoured) seem better. They only bypass wounding and saves, as they can still miss. On the other hand, a lot of models have 1-3 wounds, meaning at worst you have a 50% chance to kill a model that could be upwards of 200 points (in the case of SW). The only thing the controlling player can do is either eliminate the weapon or hide his models. Both of these are difficult when combating a flying unit. It isn't game breaking, but on some level it could become "fun-draining," as having your army picked apart by lucky shots from powerful weapons that require little tactical acumen to use is very unfun imho, when it becomes the primary focus of the game.
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Post by: Gwar!
Does the implosion model snipe out ICs? Because sticking ICs with a unit (like you are meant to) would prevent that.
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Post by: the_ferrett
Is it just me, or, with the combination of Blood Talons and leilith are my boyz screens now dead?
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Post by: Oshova
Lelith isn't as hardcore as Blood Talons. And on average Blood Talons still take 2 or 3 combats to take out a mob of 30. Obviously if you charge 2 or 3 Dreads in with them, then they're dead. But think of the points difference.
Oshova
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Post by: Gwar!
To be fair, Lelith is not a good hoard killer.
10-11 attacks only cause 3-5 wounds on average, and hoards are generally gonna throw 3x the attacks back at her with the survivors.
What she IS good for is Sniping IC's in CC!
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Post by: del'Vhar
But Lelith with a full squad of wyches will probably have something like 40-50 attacks, most of which will likely be more lethal than the average Ork boy attack.
Still, a PK Nob still has a good shot at instagibbing Lelith, unless she has EW or something.
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Post by: eNvY
del'Vhar wrote:But Lelith with a full squad of wyches will probably have something like 40-50 attacks, most of which will likely be more lethal than the average Ork boy attack.
Still, a PK Nob still has a good shot at instagibbing Lelith, unless she has EW or something.
True, but at worst she'll have a 4+ invul save, and the nob will be hitting her on 5's.
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Post by: del'Vhar
Actually, does she still have the Shadow Field?
Gotta love that glorious piece of wargear
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Post by: eNvY
del'Vhar wrote:Actually, does she still have the Shadow Field?
Gotta love that glorious piece of wargear
Not sure, but if she did I would've expected them to pimp that in her little blurb on the GW website.
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Post by: Xca|iber
Gwar! wrote:Does the implosion model snipe out ICs? Because sticking ICs with a unit (like you are meant to) would prevent that.
Here's the rumoured rule:
THE RUMORZ wrote:Implosion missiles, small blast, all models touched by it take a characteristics test on their wounds and if they fail it they instantly die.
Sounds very JotWW to me.
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Post by: Gwar!
Xca|iber wrote:Gwar! wrote:Does the implosion model snipe out ICs? Because sticking ICs with a unit (like you are meant to) would prevent that.
Here's the rumoured rule:
THE RUMORZ wrote:Implosion missiles, small blast, all models touched by it take a characteristics test on their wounds and if they fail it they instantly die.
Sounds very JotWW to me.
Wow, so it does snipe...
Very VERY nasty.
It kills normal doods 5/6 times and 3 wound models 50%.
TMC's are safe though, only 1/6 of assploding.
That is, if it is based off TOTAL wounds.
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Post by: puma713
Gwar! wrote:wuestenfux wrote:Scourges
Deepstrike. Standard with a assault 3 18" splinter weapon and can have heat lances (18" S6 AP1 Lance, Melta). 4+ armour save. Seem to get some kind of haywire grenade launcher and a jetpack like the Tau.
Great, Scourges get melta weapons.
But it appears that they are rather slow, move 6''?
If they are jetpack, they get to JSJ like Tau.
Skarboy wrote:Further, if Scourges deepstrike, if they have a jetpack, can they not land (movement phase), fire (shooting phase), 6" move (assault phase)? There might actually be a deepstrike melta unit that doesn't just stand there in the open (with a decent/lucky deepstrike, at least). We'll see.
Notice that red's source didn't say 'Jetpacks'. He said 'Jump packs'.
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Post by: Gwar!
puma713 wrote:Notice that red's source didn't say 'Jetpacks'. He said 'Jump packs'.
Yes, but others have said Jet Packs.
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Post by: puma713
Gwar! wrote:puma713 wrote:Notice that red's source didn't say 'Jetpacks'. He said 'Jump packs'.
Yes, but others have said Jet Packs.
Exactly - it's all conjecture at the moment. Even the people that say they've seen the codex are getting wires crossed.
GW's Codex News: The biggest game of Telephone on the interwebs!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Some new info from BoLS (Locephax supposedly reading from the Codex):
Locephax wrote:
Archon 60 points base huskblade 35 points soultrap is about 20.
Basic warriors are 9 points and Raiders are 60 base.
Incubi are 22 points each
Vect 240 (dais +200)
Lelith 170
ancient haemonculus 80 normal one is like 65
ravager 105-120 I think
Lelith
Lelith is WS9 BS 7 S3 T3 W3 I7/8 A4 Ld 9/10 sv6+
she has a 4++ inv against shooting (she dodges bullets lol) and a 3++ inv. in CC. Her hair counts as a shardnet and impaler (reduce ememy attacks by 1) and her knives are power weapons.
Lady Malice
(Vect's ex-lover) - she and the squad she joins are immune to all psychic powers and effects. She also has some other minor armywide ability.
Grotesques:
they are WS4 B1 S5 T5 W3 A3 ????? 6+ sv
they have feel no pain (like all other haemonculi stuff ie. the heamonculi, urien, wracks, and grotesques.) They take up 2 spaces in a transport (like Ogryn) they have to take a Ld test if an IC isn't accompanying them, and if they fail they inflict 2D6 attacks on nearby units before all dying.
Scourges
they have wings meaning they are JUMPPACK not jetpack :(
EDIT: like ACTUAL WINGS made for them by haemonculi for a lot of money. ther get surgery and fly up ato the eyries at the top of the city and act as couriers and are very rich (well paid job) and they can buy cool weapons eg splinter cannons, darklances, heat lance(?), and copme with splinter carbines standard. (very good rate of fire.)
Mandrakes
mandrake points. about 25 I think. they shoot S4 AP4 Assault 2 fire attacks. they have stealth and infiltrate. scary.
In response to who can take Venoms:
harlequins definately, I forgot what else.
it has a TL splinter rifle and can upgrade to a splinter cannon. It can take some of the DE vehicle upgrades
32755
Post by: haroon
thx puma
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
See. I like reports like this. Simple points values. None of this "Oh it costs as much as a Grey Knight plus a Rhino with Extra Armour" bs.
Keep 'em coming.
958
Post by: mikhaila
Black Boxes going out this week. Look for Partner stores to have the Codex by this weekend. Looking forward to seeing mine.
17692
Post by: Farmer
inb4bandwagon
meh @ the rules, and ok @ the models.
i was hoping DE would be a top tier army, maybe people are thoeryhammering too much.
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
We haven't seen their rules so we don't know what 'tier' they are.
... as if that even matters...
1047
Post by: Defiler
For 440 points, Vect really better have a structure point or a shadowfield on top of 14 armor versus shooting.
Jesus.
8725
Post by: Mad Doc Grotsnik
H.B.M.C. wrote:We haven't seen their rules so we don't know what 'tier' they are.
... as if that even matters...
Amen to that matey.
The Tier System, a way of pinning the blame on anything but your own cockups after losing a game.
23711
Post by: Zatsuku
From what we have heard of the rules Dark Eldar sound like a very fun and exciting army to play that are very different then other armies. Looking at the rules for Grotesques and from what we know of Haemonculi I'm hoping the second wave will focus on Haemonculi cults, I want to be able to assemble my eldritch abomination army.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
Deadshane1 wrote:Bye Bye lance spam too. (not a terrible things, all things considered)
Warriors 1pt more than current, needing 10 models for a Dark Lance option at the cost of a marine Power Fist.
Still not HORRIBLE, but probably better off putting their poison to good use against foot troopers.
Would this mean
20 Warriros w/ 2 dark lances - 230 pts
4395
Post by: Deadshane1
Defiler wrote:For 440 points, Vect really better have a structure point or a shadowfield on top of 14 armor versus shooting.
Jesus.
More like he's a 240pt special character that can ride in a Ravager (that has armour 14 I hope for 200pts). If you knock down the vehicle he probably just disembarks. Not that I know...but for points like that...I'm fairly certain that's how it will work out.
755pts to get you 4 Ravagers in your army with dark lances. All of which can shoot all weapons after moving 12 inches, and you get a 4+ to steal the initiative. I might be able to make a 2000 pt army out of that startup.
4139
Post by: wuestenfux
I always consider Vect as being too expensive.
About the Archon:
Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness
Ouch!
How much will this blade cost? About 50 to 60 pts?
1047
Post by: Defiler
wuestenfux wrote:I always consider Vect as being too expensive.
About the Archon:
Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness
Ouch!
How much will this blade cost? About 50 to 60 pts?
30, and his soul trap pyramid (the strength doubler after he kills an IC/ MC) costs like 20.
*From memory, from rumors
14529
Post by: Erasoketa
Defiler wrote:wuestenfux wrote:I always consider Vect as being too expensive.
About the Archon:
Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness
Ouch!
How much will this blade cost? About 50 to 60 pts?
30, and his soul trap pyramid (the strength doubler after he kills an IC/ MC) costs like 20.
*From memory, from rumors
30+20+ another 50 if the Shadowfield hasn't changed? 160p for a really fully equipped Archon. Sounds painful.
18032
Post by: jspyd3rx
Sorry noob question; what does dark field do?
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
Shadow fields were 25 pts., 1 per army, gave the wearer +2 Inv save.
18032
Post by: jspyd3rx
No way that is staying in the game. If it is, I am sure it has changed.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
I'm sure it will be modified especially given some of the new wargear we've heard about. The 2+ was not permanent, once you failed even 1 hit you lost the entire save. However, I've rarely had an Archon die when I use it.
29361
Post by: fett14622
Rymafyr wrote:I'm sure it will be modified especially given some of the new wargear we've heard about. The 2+ was not permanent, once you failed even 1 hit you lost the entire save. However, I've rarely had an Archon die when I use it.
thought it might get nerfed in the new dex to +3 or +4 and not limited to one per army
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Last I heard it had stayed the same, as it is one of the defining items.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
nosferatu1001 wrote:Last I heard it had stayed the same, as it is one of the defining items.
If that is true then an Archon with shadow field, the sword and cube is going to be one of the most deadly models in-game hands down. Archons were tough even in the old book as with Combat 'enhancers' you could get about 7 attacks on a charge using a power weapon.
29842
Post by: Pen≥Sword
Rymafyr wrote:I'm sure it will be modified especially given some of the new wargear we've heard about. The 2+ was not permanent, once you failed even 1 hit you lost the entire save. However, I've rarely had an Archon die when I use it.
I'm jealous. my Archon always failed the very first save he was ever called on to make. Lasgun--*pew*..... "AARRRGGH!!"
It's especially fun when you get hit by an auto cannon or a relic blade.
24645
Post by: Luthon1234
Pen≥Sword wrote:Rymafyr wrote:I'm sure it will be modified especially given some of the new wargear we've heard about. The 2+ was not permanent, once you failed even 1 hit you lost the entire save. However, I've rarely had an Archon die when I use it.
I'm jealous. my Archon always failed the very first save he was ever called on to make. Lasgun--*pew*..... "AARRRGGH!!"
It's especially fun when you get hit by an auto cannon or a relic blade.
My Archon could survive currents of fire coming at him, battle cannons, las cannons, bolter fire, everything but one guardsmen butt to the head and hes dead.
3894
Post by: nickthewise
No jetbike or skyboard option for non-sc IC
Sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but can anyone confirm this? Are there any characters that come with Jetbikes or Skyboards? Perhaps an IC upgrade in the Hellion or Reaver entry?
Trying to decide what to do with my Archon & Dracon on Reavers and Archon on Skyboard... hopefully they won't become totally irrelevant and can be used as a "counts as" something; just trying to figure out what.
17692
Post by: Farmer
Erasoketa wrote:Defiler wrote:wuestenfux wrote:I always consider Vect as being too expensive.
About the Archon:
Archon model has access to the Huskblade, which causes Instant Death on any model that suffers an unsaved wound, regardless of their Toughness
Ouch!
How much will this blade cost? About 50 to 60 pts?
30, and his soul trap pyramid (the strength doubler after he kills an IC/ MC) costs like 20.
*From memory, from rumors
30+20+ another 50 if the Shadowfield hasn't changed? 160p for a really fully equipped Archon. Sounds painful.
yo ho ho ho, if these rumors are true doesn't look like i'll see much use for agonisers on my lord then.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
So, my GW got the book in.
I am going tomorrow with a notepad.
I won't be posting any rules though. Mostly going to take notes for my FAQ.
12893
Post by: evilsponge
Gwar! wrote:So, my GW got the book in.
I am going tomorrow with a notepad.
I won't be posting any rules though. Mostly going to take notes for my FAQ.
um...okay?
7075
Post by: chaos0xomega
Gwar! you're such a tease...
649
Post by: Thanatos_elNyx
Disappointed with the Lelith rules. Even with a mountain of attacks, her Str3 means she ain't killing much.
181
Post by: gorgon
nickthewise wrote:Sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but can anyone confirm this? Are there any characters that come with Jetbikes or Skyboards? Perhaps an IC upgrade in the Hellion or Reaver entry?
Baron Whatsisname (a SC) does.
My (now informed) comments from memory:
I *think* that the kudos that Phil K. will receive for this codex will mirror what Jes received on the models. It's a dense, flavorful book with lots of great choices and options.
I apologize if any of this has been mentioned previously, but here's a few snippets.
WWP is in. Bearer drops it in the shooting phase. It then acts more or less like a board edge that you can bring reserves on. The WWP is indestructible once it's down...and in a change, cannot be used to bring on vehicles. Also, if you have a WWP you can always put things in reserves even if the mission doesn't allow.
Agonizer works as it did before.
The three types of Beastmaster beasts have different statlines, but the main differences is that one has an invulnerable save, one gets bonus attacks when wounded, and one has rending.
DE Warrior options:
One can have a shredder for a termagant or a blaster for 3 termagants. Also one per every 10 can have a splinter cannon for 2 termagants or a dark lance for 5 termagants. Unit leader can have (among other things) a venom blade (4+ poison?) for a termagant, a power weapon for two termagants, or an agonizer (same profile as before) for 4 termagants.
The dedicated transports section states that you can't purchase a ded. transport if the unit has more models than the transport carrying capacity. So no spamming raiders from 20-man Warrior squads.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Thanatos_elNyx wrote:Disappointed with the Lelith rules. Even with a mountain of attacks, her Str3 means she ain't killing much.
Doesn't she have a Poisoned weapon?
24990
Post by: Skarboy
WWP could be fun. Drop near enemy base in capture and control, flood in grotesques and haemonculus. ENJOY!
This is sizing up to be a very fun, interesting codex. Everything seems appropriately priced. Am waiting with baited breath to get my hands on the damn codex to peruse the options. I'll wait for the fluff for when my own copy arrives. Automatically Appended Next Post: Gwar! wrote:Doesn't she have a Poisoned weapon?
Good question. Last gen, she had an Agonizer, but perhaps not this go 'round.
181
Post by: gorgon
On the Haemi front, I checked out Wracks. I'm a little foggy, but I *think* they were S3, T4 with two poisoned weapons and about 2 termagants in price. They look pretty bada$$ in the artwork.
And speaking of artwork, Scourges have a TOTALLY new look. Think beaked helmets and actual feathered wings. They look like some kind of twisted, more organic Swooping Hawk.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Oh, and I noticed something.
In the new codex (if my info is right), Lelith doesn't use Combat Enhancers Drugs.
This is, I would imagine, a bit of an In Joke, since RaW she can't use Combat Drugs in the current codex (and the DE FAQ, while changing this, makes a note that she would be the only Wych ever to not use them).
17559
Post by: Warboss Narznok
I am sure GW have written them to be a good match against the other factions.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Gwar! wrote:Oh, and I noticed something.
In the new codex (if my info is right), Lelith doesn't use Combat Enhancers Drugs.
This is, I would imagine, a bit of an In Joke, since RaW she can't use Combat Drugs in the current codex (and the DE FAQ, while changing this, makes a note that she would be the only Wych ever to not use them).
Or it could simply be a way to differentiate her as a champion gladiator whose martial skills and discipline set her apart from her followers, who have to rely upon a cocktail of drugs and enhancements to even become a mere shadow of her.
181
Post by: gorgon
Warboss Narznok wrote:I am sure GW have written them to be a good match against the other factions.
I tend to agree with Deadshane that at first glance they look to do a number on Tyranids. Plentiful poison and a decent amount of instant death means uh-oh for MCs. Not to mention Blasters, Heat Lances, Dark Lances, etc.
172
Post by: Thunderjaw
One can have a shredder for a termagant or a blaster for 3 termagants. Also one per every 10 can have a splinter cannon for 2 termagants or a dark lance for 5 termagants. Unit leader can have (among other things) a venom blade (4+ poison?) for a termagant, a power weapon for two termagants, or an agonizer (same profile as before) for 4 termagants.
Dammit, now I've got to go buy a box of Termagants just to build an army... talk about a way to increase sales!
8815
Post by: Archonate
They put feathers on Scourges?... I'm trying hard to picture this looking cool somehow, and it's not working.
As always, I'll reserve judgment until I see models, but I'm thinking bat wings would have been better. Automatically Appended Next Post: Skarboy wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
Gwar! wrote:Doesn't she have a Poisoned weapon?
Good question. Last gen, she had an Agonizer, but perhaps not this go 'round.
I bet she still does. I highly doubt they would make her use her S3 to wound.
722
Post by: Kanluwen
Think of tattered raven wings, and it works alot better.
In fact, aren't groups of ravens sometimes referred to as "scourges"?
I know a group of crows is a "murder", but eh. Food for thought.
19057
Post by: oldone
Well as an nid player i think that bone swords are worth it now more then every i mean, lash whip and bonesword on a prime is half the ponits of this husk blade although they have an easy way pasting i also reduc the I of the oppent so its seems like an equal trade but i thinking that with Archons being I7 and using huskblade=bye-bye methpsion(really sorry on spelling).
181
Post by: gorgon
Kanluwen wrote:Think of tattered raven wings, and it works alot better.
In fact, aren't groups of ravens sometimes referred to as "scourges"?
I know a group of crows is a "murder", but eh. Food for thought.
An unkindness of ravens, actually. That's one of the better ones. Parliament of owls is another good one.
Back on topic, that's probably a good description. It's an aggressive look in the art. More Hawkman than angelic.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
A CRASH! of Rhinos has always been my favorite.
BTW, shouldn't the model discussion go to the other DE thread?
494
Post by: H.B.M.C.
gorgon wrote:One can have a shredder for a termagant or a blaster for 3 termagants. Also one per every 10 can have a splinter cannon for 2 termagants or a dark lance for 5 termagants. Unit leader can have (among other things) a venom blade (4+ poison?) for a termagant, a power weapon for two termagants, or an agonizer (same profile as before) for 4 termagants.
Oh Christ... this is so asinine. Can we just say the points value? It's not as if by saying "5 points" rather than "1 termagant" GW is suddenly going to descend from their Ivory Tower and sue us all. Let me re-post this so it's not a pain in the ass to read:
" One can have a shredder for 5 Points or a blaster for 15 Points. Also one per every 10 can have a splinter cannon for 10 Points or a dark lance for 25 Points. Unit leader can have (among other things) a venom blade (4+ poison?) for 5 Points, a power weapon for 10 Points, or an agonizer (same profile as before) for 20 Points."
Is that so difficult?
6902
Post by: skrulnik
H.B.M.C. wrote:gorgon wrote:One can have a shredder for a termagant or a blaster for 3 termagants. Also one per every 10 can have a splinter cannon for 2 termagants or a dark lance for 5 termagants. Unit leader can have (among other things) a venom blade (4+ poison?) for a termagant, a power weapon for two termagants, or an agonizer (same profile as before) for 4 termagants.
Oh Christ... this is so asinine. Can we just say the points value? It's not as if by saying "5 points" rather than "1 termagant" GW is suddenly going to descend from their Ivory Tower and sue us all. Let me re-post this so it's not a pain in the ass to read:
" One can have a shredder for 5 Points or a blaster for 15 Points. Also one per every 10 can have a splinter cannon for 10 Points or a dark lance for 25 Points. Unit leader can have (among other things) a venom blade (4+ poison?) for 5 Points, a power weapon for 10 Points, or an agonizer (same profile as before) for 20 Points."
Is that so difficult?
Thank you
7075
Post by: chaos0xomega
Hats off to you H.B.M.C.
5421
Post by: JohnHwangDD
If it's printed fact (and it is), I don't understand the need to obfuscate. GW can't copyright "10 points"
Or can they?
If so, I'm going to copyright "12 inches".
12265
Post by: Gwar!
InB4 HBMC is dragged off to the Pits by Attack Pandas!
5873
Post by: kirsanth
gorgon wrote:they look to do a number on Tyranids.
Because we dominate soo badly now that we need another codex to bring us down to earth. . . .
7075
Post by: chaos0xomega
Yeah, I have to say that the new DE codex seems to spell some sort of doom for the poor bugs All the poison that can get thrown out will certainly give TMCs some major head/heartache...
...or maybe this is GW's way of trying to signal Tyranid players that the real strength of the army does not come from trying to maintain the nidzilla style in the new edition, but instead taking a diversity of species and actually fielding more than the minimum number of gants needed for 3 tervigons.
5873
Post by: kirsanth
6 of 35 models in the Tyranid index are single wound. (And that assumes you count spore mines ) Just saying.
21932
Post by: ThePhish
One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
I don't know. 1,100pts for 6 10-man troops with a lance/melta assault weapon, dark lance open-topped transport, a ton of poison shots, and a leader with a 4+ power weapon isn't to shabby a core to an army. And that's just the Warriors. Who knows what we're looking at for wyches so far.
And that is in comparison to Space Wolves w/6 5-man units in transports w/melta guns for 1010. That actually seems oddly balanced to me....
Still glass hammer but balanced outside of the codex which is good to see. Since popping those transports won't be to hard 12 independently firing st6-8 weapons.
7075
Post by: chaos0xomega
I think playing them will probably come down to finding the right balance between quantity (sheer number of models) and quality (unit upgrades/wargear/weapons, transports, etc.). Just the basic models don't really seem like they would accomplish very much, but at the same time, spending 500 points on a warrior squad with all the bells and whistles seems like you're just looking to give up an easy killpoint and a significant chunk of your army.
Some armies like Marines can get away with this, but I think these guys will be too fragile.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
ThePhish wrote:One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.
To those of us who have steadfastly played this army for 12 years, we're well aware of that. However, it will be so nice to know we can have way more 'punch' now with this revamp. So it seems DE will still be a finesse army that will take experience and tactics to play. I'm ok with that, though I feel really bad for anyone jumping on the bandwagon thinking they will dominate right off the bat.
8617
Post by: Hulksmash
Yeah, I think the days of 5-man squads might be over but that all depends on the gear those units can have and at how many models are required to have it. Certainly w/poisoned-rapid fire weapons the more models the better. Talk about a disgusting shooting phase against T3 models
21932
Post by: ThePhish
Rymafyr wrote:ThePhish wrote:One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.
To those of us who have steadfastly played this army for 12 years, we're well aware of that. However, it will be so nice to know we can have way more 'punch' now with this revamp. So it seems DE will still be a finesse army that will take experience and tactics to play. I'm ok with that, though I feel really bad for anyone jumping on the bandwagon thinking they will dominate right off the bat.
This exactly. I'm just hoping I can get some of the armies off ebay for cheap when they get po'd and quit playing them.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
For me just being able to wound on a 4+ (because of poison) is a major and significant change to how I'll field my Raider squads. Typically I used to maybe wound 1 SM if I fired a Splinter Cannon, Blaster and 7 rifles, (For some reason blasters rarely did anything for me). I'm thinking with poison, I'll see that come to about 3 wounds which is going to be significantly better.
181
Post by: gorgon
@HBMC -- HEEL, you weiner dog yapping at my heels! Before I smack you on the nose with a rolled-up DE codex.
I don't usually do the rumorage thing, so I'm just trying to stay respectful of any forum rules, whatever they are. *shrug*
Back on topic, DE hit like a truck, but they're still T3 with bad armor saves and lots of weak vehicles. Impaler cannons, deathspitters, brainleech devourers, biovores, etc. should take some toll...provided you can weather the storm early on. They're a boxer with a glass jaw throwing haymakers. They even have some S10 in their arsenal now, IIRC.
7075
Post by: chaos0xomega
Actually... I feel almost as though DE are what Tau should have been (except the Tau would trade the DEs low AV for tougher vehicles and an inability to fight in cc).
21932
Post by: ThePhish
I've got a strong feeling that even with all of the new updates etc. the same armies that won games before will continue to do so with the new dex. We may just have a few more options to use to get to the same conclusion.
Although, I haven't seen anything posted yet on restrictions to the 3 different army types. For all we know, some army types may not be able to use certain units at all, such as the wych armies not being able to use taloi, haemonculi stuff in the previous codex. They may have put similar restrictions on all 3 army types.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
ThePhish wrote:Rymafyr wrote:ThePhish wrote:One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.
To those of us who have steadfastly played this army for 12 years, we're well aware of that. However, it will be so nice to know we can have way more 'punch' now with this revamp. So it seems DE will still be a finesse army that will take experience and tactics to play. I'm ok with that, though I feel really bad for anyone jumping on the bandwagon thinking they will dominate right off the bat.
This exactly. I'm just hoping I can get some of the armies off ebay for cheap when they get po'd and quit playing them.
While I think this will happen since some people will not get the instant gratification of winning easily, I personally hope most will stick it out and learn how to field DE. I don't want to see a repeat of what happened to the original DE being pushed to arms length and getting ignored.
181
Post by: gorgon
Regarding the 3 army types, I didn't notice any major restrictions. Looked pretty mix-and-match to me.
Regarding Haemi armies, Wracks are elites, so there's no actual Haemi troop type. You'll still need two squads of Wyches or Warriors.
Edit: Although Haemis or Urien might allow you to field them as Troops. I'll try to check on that.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
gorgon wrote:Regarding the 3 army types, I didn't notice any major restrictions. Looked pretty mix-and-match to me.
Regarding Haemi armies, Wracks are elites, so there's no actual Haemi troop type. You'll still need two squads of Wyches or Warriors.
That's cool and I certainly hope this is the case. It doesn't make sense to limit options because you decided to field a specific army.
19754
Post by: puma713
Interesting wargear tidbit:
Bigred wrote:
Clone Field
Projects holo-replicas of the bearer.
Nullifies D3 attacks against the model every assault phase, chosen by the bearer.
14529
Post by: Erasoketa
Rymafyr wrote:Shadow fields were 25 pts., 1 per army, gave the wearer +2 Inv save.
D'oh! True, 25pts, I fail at the internets.
7075
Post by: chaos0xomega
gorgon wrote:Regarding the 3 army types, I didn't notice any major restrictions. Looked pretty mix-and-match to me.
Regarding Haemi armies, Wracks are elites, so there's no actual Haemi troop type. You'll still need two squads of Wyches or Warriors.
Edit: Although Haemis or Urien might allow you to field them as Troops. I'll try to check on that.
You sure? Someone on warseer was saying that they actually saw the codex and wracks were a troops choice.
4736
Post by: airmang
Wracks are an elite choice, but Urien make them troops.
9598
Post by: Quintinus
puma713 wrote:Interesting wargear tidbit:
Bigred wrote:
Clone Field
Projects holo-replicas of the bearer.
Nullifies D3 attacks against the model every assault phase, chosen by the bearer.
Schnikeys that's good.
24645
Post by: Luthon1234
Hulksmash wrote:Yeah, I think the days of 5-man squads might be over but that all depends on the gear those units can have and at how many models are required to have it. Certainly w/poisoned-rapid fire weapons the more models the better. Talk about a disgusting shooting phase against T3 models
Actually they might stay around, if DL's are as expensive as craftworld it might be better to do 5 man squads with blasters (since they are 18 inch instead of 12).
24990
Post by: Skarboy
The thing I'm noticing is a lot of characterful gear and options for the DE, which is a fantastic turn of events. They may not be ultra powerful (though there seems to be lots of VERY interesting stuff in the codex), but they seem true to who they are and how they are represented. That alone deserves some recognition, that the DE actually have character now instead of a 40-page wafer thin codex and models with blades and spiky bits.
5389
Post by: Spiff
When I first read about Lelith having WS 9, I was irritated because I generally don't like to see stat-creep to such an extreme extent.
HOWEVER, the reason it doesn't bother me now is because of 'cut above the rest' or whatever the rule is that gives her a bonus attack for the difference between her WS and that of an enemy.
In my thinking, this makes it seem that giving her a WS just short of the WS of an incarnation of a god of war (Avatar) isn't a matter of GW saying "OH she is so freaking awesome you can't comprehend". It's more of an interesting game mechanic where the end result is her getting more attacks in an interesting way.
EDIT: also, once you get a WS over 7 or so, it really is irrelevant unless you're pitting her against a special character that also has a really high WS. A WS 7,8,9 or 10 unit will all have the same odds of hitting your basic marine or guardsman, right? (or am I misremembering the to-hit chart?)
5873
Post by: kirsanth
Spiff wrote:EDIT: also, once you get a WS over 7 or so, it really is irrelevant unless you're pitting her against a special character that also has a really high WS. A WS 7,8,9 or 10 unit will all have the same odds of hitting your basic marine or guardsman, right? (or am I misremembering the to-hit chart?)
Being higher at all gives you the same odds of hitting anything. Being 2x+1 higher makes it harder for them to hit you. So a 9 gives meqs a 5+, so it seems to be misremembered, but not by much.
5389
Post by: Spiff
Ah. THAT's it. I knew I was forgetting something. Yeah, the 9 is double + 1 MEQ WS, making it harder for them to hit her. Good call.
24567
Post by: Kroothawk
Updated the summary. But we are getting close to the point where many people have seen the Codex and practically all information is accessible, making it impracticle to further update the summary with all the detailed information coming in.
19754
Post by: puma713
Few more tidbits:
Locephax wrote:
Drazhar
Phoenix lord statline incl 2+ sv and EW, the demiklaves and he can move to a different spot in combat as long as he stays in B2B with opponents. other stuff too.
Drugs
3D6 pick the highest for running,
+1 S
+1 WS
can't remember this one
probably (? think the author meant probable, dunno though ) re-rolls is one
+1 free pain token (meaning most of the army gets feel no pain lol)
1 roll for entire army.
33661
Post by: Mad4Minis
ThePhish wrote:One thing seems apparent imho. The "glass hammer" label will definately still apply to the new line of DE. While they've added some options to gain some survivability, they've bumped up costs on almost everything it seems. Also, by adding those same options for more firepower and defensive options, they reduce the number of units on the board. DE are still going to be really fragile. They'll do a ton of damage, but die by the droves.
Well they are supposed to be a hit and run army. Speed and cover are their biggest allies. They are meant to do max damage quickly, grab some slaves, loot, etc and GTFO. There are some scenarios, esp defensive ones, the DE should just avoid. Holding a position, or taking and holding one, are just against the DE character. There are extremely few reasons they would participate in those actions.
19754
Post by: puma713
Thing that I think is important to remember is while we're seeing FNP on every other unit (it seems like), Str. 6 still discounts FNP in this army. Archons, Lelith, Wyches - just about everything that may or may not get FNP will have it negated by Scatter Lasers, Multi-lasers, Flamestorms, Str. 6 CC, etc., etc.
14852
Post by: Fateweaver
Damn, I wish my game store were a "GW" store...nearly a month is too damn long to wait :(
19975
Post by: Sigmatron
Which might make the Grotesque Army strong, as they are T5 (the bigger ones) with FNP and T4 for the Wracks.
19754
Post by: puma713
Fateweaver wrote:Damn, I wish my game store were a "GW" store...nearly a month is too damn long to wait :(
After 12 years, a month is a drop in the bucket, my friend.
20867
Post by: Just Dave
puma713 wrote:Fateweaver wrote:Damn, I wish my game store were a "GW" store...nearly a month is too damn long to wait :(
After 12 years, a month is a drop in the bucket, my friend.
*round of applause*
19965
Post by: Lord Harrab
Oh man, it seems to me that any IG army with hydras is going to murder those jet-bikes and raiders, they won't be lasting long without their flat-out cover save against that storm of shots.
19975
Post by: Sigmatron
That's why Hydras will be Target priority #1.
9010
Post by: Rymafyr
Sigmatron wrote:That's why Hydras will be Target priority #1.
Yep. I'm guessing you're still going to see anywhere between 6-7 Raiders and at least 1 Ravager in every DE build still. That's still 9 to 10 DL's no matter how you slice it. Anyone know if the DL's are still Str 8 AP 2? Or did they go to Str 9?
24990
Post by: Skarboy
Rymafyr wrote:Yep. I'm guessing you're still going to see anywhere between 6-7 Raiders and at least 1 Ravager in every DE build still. That's still 9 to 10 DL's no matter how you slice it. Anyone know if the DL's are still Str 8 AP 2? Or did they go to Str 9?
Standard DL are S8, I believe. The flying fighter seems to have a S9 lance which is pretty nasty.
Lance spam may be gone, but it's been replaced by a healthy diversity of other options as well as plenty of lances to go around.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
Is it true? the hydra actually has a use vs bikes for once? non-3+ save bikes! what a shock
8815
Post by: Archonate
Skarboy wrote:Lance spam may be gone, but it's been replaced by a healthy diversity of other options as well as plenty of lances to go around.
The loss of DL spam might have bothered me once upon a time, but I LOVE that it's been replaced by a high volume of poisonous ranged weaponry. You don't NEED tons of DLs anymore!
A wise GT winner once told me that the key to ruining your opponents game is to make them roll as many dice during your turn (armor saves, etc.) as you can. Poisoned splinters make that far more possible.
19754
Post by: puma713
Archonate wrote:Skarboy wrote:Lance spam may be gone, but it's been replaced by a healthy diversity of other options as well as plenty of lances to go around.
The loss of DL spam might have bothered me once upon a time, but I LOVE that it's been replaced by a high volume of poisonous ranged weaponry. You don't NEED tons of DLs anymore!
A wise GT winner once told me that the key to ruining your opponents game is to make them roll as many dice during your turn (armor saves, etc.) as you can. Poisoned splinters make that far more possible.
Except for the fact that that IG parking lot doesn't care about your poisoned weapons.
19975
Post by: Sigmatron
Parking Lots will be one of the hardest challenges for DE, in my opinion. Even the Chimera's are deadly.
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
I think Orks and IG will be the greatest challenges. Although Chaos Daemons with their special deployment could really spoil a game fast. I am actually curious as to how they will match up against the tau as well... It used to seem like every gun being shot from a fire warrior might as well have been a las canon! 2+ To wound with no save...Ugh!
8815
Post by: Archonate
IG and Tau where always the most notorious DE killers. I wonder if this will change.
24645
Post by: Luthon1234
Sigmatron wrote:Parking Lots will be one of the hardest challenges for DE, in my opinion. Even the Chimera's are deadly.
So not much changed then?
Now that we have more useful units we should be ok now in 5th.
29629
Post by: zeekill
So, two questions:
1) Do you guys think that the prices will go up after the pre-ordering period is over? Right now I like the prices. I will take $33 for a raider and $25 for a box of 10 troops thank you very much.
2) Do you think that all the hype we are hearing about raiders and pain points is really that good or is it going to be a tyrannofex situation (OMG SO GOOD S10 2 Shot and 2+ Save OMG!!!! 5 days later: awww.... 265 points and its BS3....)
19754
Post by: puma713
zeekill wrote:
2) Do you think that all the hype we are hearing about raiders and pain points is really that good or is it going to be a tyrannofex situation (OMG SO GOOD S10 2 Shot and 2+ Save OMG!!!! 5 days later: awww.... 265 points and its BS3....)
I think it'll be a little bit of both. Everyone is so hyped on the entire release that they're imagining all the neat things that each unit can do. However, I imagine that it will be similar to the Eldar codex in that your army will need synergy to work properly. I also think with all the point increases that the codex got, people will be trying to fit as much of what they like into a list - so much that it may lose a bit of balance. We'll see, I suppose. I also have a feeling that the bandwagoners may have a tough time with this codex and that you'll be seeing lots of new DE on eBay come Christmas time and soon thereafter.
Just my 2 coppers.
28269
Post by: Red Corsair
I don't think so I actually think they are going to become much easier to play then people are expecting. With the streamlining of the options in the FOC and the new poison rules I think they will dominate in smaller games..... Its large scale games that I think the newer players will be poised for the biggest challenge.
33441
Post by: spiraleddie
i did a quick search and found no mention of the Chronos Parasite engine which has some good support charateristics, it is a MC, it was in the same slot as the talos, the creature sucks the life force out of victims and then emits the consumed life force back out to supporting DE giving a boost in combat. Im sorry i cant remember exact details but im hoping someone else might know.
i was in my local GW store today and was surprised to see a DE codex on the painting table for all to read, so i plonked myself down for a quick read.
i also was quite excited as it had a pic (sketch like the ones in OP) of the talos, and it looks sweet, it definantly has the look of eldar, its body/head looks like the wraithlords head but on a different orientation.
33183
Post by: Athera
puma713 wrote:zeekill wrote:
2) Do you think that all the hype we are hearing about raiders and pain points is really that good or is it going to be a tyrannofex situation (OMG SO GOOD S10 2 Shot and 2+ Save OMG!!!! 5 days later: awww.... 265 points and its BS3....)
I think it'll be a little bit of both. Everyone is so hyped on the entire release that they're imagining all the neat things that each unit can do. However, I imagine that it will be similar to the Eldar codex in that your army will need synergy to work properly. I also think with all the point increases that the codex got, people will be trying to fit as much of what they like into a list - so much that it may lose a bit of balance. We'll see, I suppose. I also have a feeling that the bandwagoners may have a tough time with this codex and that you'll be seeing lots of new DE on eBay come Christmas time and soon thereafter.
Just my 2 coppers.
This is what I'm expecting to. Just like Tyranids that the bandwagoneers ran out with and got crumped by Space Marines. DE Bandwagoneers are going to get crumped by Space Marines and blown off the table by IG. Then they'll eBay and buy Space Wolves.
7722
Post by: em_en_oh_pee
Athera wrote:This is what I'm expecting to. Just like Tyranids that the bandwagoneers ran out with and got crumped by Space Marines. DE Bandwagoneers are going to get crumped by Space Marines and blown off the table by IG. Then they'll eBay and buy Space Wolves.
Saving myself some time and picking up Space Wolves instead of DE.
9777
Post by: A-P
Just woke up and catching up on the info. So...one small detail that caught my eye. Did I get this right? GW actually did a 180 and included old fashioned, honest-to-Ghu, retinues? They went the way of the Dodo since 5th Edition was introduced. Killing those Xenos leaders is going to be a PITA if you can not target them in CC.
11268
Post by: nosferatu1001
Except if you read the summary it suggests they can be picked out, a la BT.
THe IG parking lot will care once you get behind it though. It doesnt, if they are actually following the rules correctly, turn around very easily.
181
Post by: gorgon
Pretty confident that they're not retinues in the 3rd ed. sense.
12265
Post by: Gwar!
Omg, you lied!
They are called Combat Drugs!
19754
Post by: puma713
For those that are staying away from the 48-page thread, chaos0xomega just posted a nice find from Warseer. Also, cleaned it up a little bit - I removed the "half a firewarrior" point algorithms with just the listed points, to make it easier to understand (and so I don't have a caniption).
chaos0xomega wrote:
The webway portal, sadly, is just a repainted vortex grenade (ala the apoc release from a while back).
Also(thank you vovlin from warseer):
* Flyers:
4 types of missiles, range 48"
1) S6 AP5 Blast 5"
2) S7 AP- Blast 5", reroll to wound
3) SX AP5 Blast 5", Poison 2+, Pinning
4) AP2 Blast 3", Test on initial Wounds or dead, cover and invulnerable saves allowed
Razorwing: 10/10/10
has 4 missiles of type 1), can upgrade to type 2) and 3)
Bomber: 11/11/10
can take upt to 4 missiles of any type
Type 4) costs 30 pts.
Has one Void Mine: S9 AP2 Blast 5", Lance, dropped on model underneath, D6" scatter
* Haemonculi can also take a huskblade
* Warriors don't have plasma greandes, but sybarite can take grenade launcher for 20 pts. which gives offensive and defensive grenades to the whole squad
* Trueborns can exchange their rifle for ccw and pistol for free or carbine for 5 pts., can take plasma grenades for one point each. 4 Trueborn can take special weapons and 2 heavy weapons
* every third elite waych can take a wych weapon
* Incubi can't take plasma grenades or grenade launcher
* Groteques can take a champion, which can take some special ccw, but nothing which ignores armour, Wracks can also take a champion which can take an agonizer
* there is absolutely no way to give mandrakes a pain point without sacrificing their infiltration
* the combat drugs effects are: +1 A, +1 S, +1 WS, max out of 3D6 for running, reroll to wound in close combat, free Pain Token
* beastmasters don't have combat drugs and they are Beasts instead of Jump Troops
* Hellions have Fleet, Reavers have not
* Mandrakes have only 1 ccw, so only three attacks during an assault and 2 thereafter
* Jetbike fly-by-attack only works against one single unit even if there were several units on the path of the jetbikes. For determination wether an unit was under the jetbikes path or not you don't look at the actual path. You take the starting point and end point of the movement and draw a line.
* most squad champions can take ghostarmour (4+ and 6++) except wyches
* if there is a portal, even deepstriking or outflanking reserves can enter via the portal
* Talos is 100 pts. with D6 attacks, for 15 pts. it can take an additional ccw. For 5 pts. it can be upgraded with the Instant Death special rule or a special close combat weapon, that allows it to roll 2D6 for its attacks and pick the highest
* Talos is equipped with twin-linked splinter cannon, can be upgraded to twin-linked blaster, twin-linked heat lance and another weapon that i have forgotten
* Both Talos and the Cronos have the Power from Pain rule, so they can get FnP and FC (S8 Talos on the charge)
* Reaver, Talos and Chronos have the Move through Cover USR
* Groteques can get a raider, Wracks can get raider or venom
* Talos is 5/3/7/7/3/4or5/D6/3+ and Cronos is 3/3/5/7/3/4or5/2/3+
* when the Cronos kills a model in cc, a unit in 12" gets a Pain Token. Can change this weapon against one of the following weapons, that also gives a Pain Token upon wounding:
Flame S4 DS 3 Assault or 18" S3 DS3 Assault Blast 5"
* the entry of the Inccubi is virtually the same as an aspect warrior entry: 5-10 warrior, exarch/klavex upgrade, 2 weapon options for klavex and 2 powers
* the Preferred enemy power only works for the Klavex
* Drazahr makes a unit Inccubis Fearless
* vehicle upgrades:
for 10 pts. each: nightfield, 5++ and Deep Strike
for 5 pts. each:
- if the raider moves over a unit it gets D3+1 hits with S4
- 2D6" extra movement
- enemy unit in 6" get -1 on thei Ld, must take a Ld if they try to assault the vehicle
- friendly units in 12" can reroll their moraletest
- raider can tankshot, if it rams it gets +D3 on its front armour
- for every 1 on a close combat to hit roll against the vehicle the unit gets a S4 hit
- splinter rifles and pistols (but no cannons) can reroll failed to hit rolls when shooting from the raider
9598
Post by: Quintinus
Wow. The Dark Eldar sound awesome. I love the Retinue the best, more races in 40k is always welcome. : )
11060
Post by: Phototoxin
What's the pts cost of a raider anyway?
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