60pts

So a 90 point squad of Warriors with rifle, on a 60 point Raider with a 5 point upgrade (155 point total) can get rapid fire, re-roll to hit, 4+ poison . . . I like =D

Drive-bys a go go . . .

Oshova

I think its even more hilarious given that the raider (or was it the ravager?) pilot seems to have a bandana tied around his helmet...

I wonder if that upgrade only counts for the crew, not the embarked passengers?

Oshova wrote:So a 90 point squad of Warriors with rifle, on a 60 point Raider with a 5 point upgrade (155 point total) can get rapid fire, re-roll to hit, 4+ poison . . . I like =D

Drive-bys a go go . . .

Oshova

That's just it though - I think it's a bit misleading; if you move over 6", the embarked passengers aren't shooting anyway. And, without the 5++, you're going to zoom up (nigh unprotected) into the face of the enemy and hope to live so you can fire all those weapons from the prow of your raider. Or, you're going to creep along like a rhino and use that to unleash a volley of shots. I think the 5++, the re-roll to morale and the tank shocking upgrades are the most worthwhile.

Edit: Unless, of course the +2D6" movement doesn't affect the "speed" at which you moved. Then that one as well. Move 6" to stay at combat speed, move an additional 2D6", then rapid fire 12". So, a 20"- 30" threat range.

puma713 wrote:Thing that I think is important to remember is while we're seeing FNP on every other unit (it seems like), Str. 6 still discounts FNP in this army. Archons, Lelith, Wyches - just about everything that may or may not get FNP will have it negated by Scatter Lasers, Multi-lasers, Flamestorms, Str. 6 CC, etc., etc.

"Etc etc?" You mean, and a few more to bring your total to five weapons?

Thanks for the news flash, captain obvious. Are you next going to tell us that it's meant to only mitigate small arms?

Or highlight the fact those weapons typically have no reason to be fired at warriors, wyches in the first place?

One rumor I heard was that units could not disembark if you took the extra 2D6" move on raiders. This would be a bit too broken with Wyches on board!

Defiler wrote:

puma713 wrote:Thing that I think is important to remember is while we're seeing FNP on every other unit (it seems like), Str. 6 still discounts FNP in this army. Archons, Lelith, Wyches - just about everything that may or may not get FNP will have it negated by Scatter Lasers, Multi-lasers, Flamestorms, Str. 6 CC, etc., etc.

"Etc etc?" You mean, and a few more to bring your total to five weapons?

Thanks for the news flash, captain obvious. Are you next going to tell us that it's meant to only mitigate small arms?

Wow, did I say something that offended you? What's with the attitude? (You do know what etc. means don't you? "a number of other, unspecified things")

Generally, FNP is on models of Tough 4 or higher. People may have this notion so ingrained in their head (a la, 4th Edition rules moving to 5th Edition) that they don't stop to think about the fact that only Str. 6 will negate the FNP. It was a simple observation. But, I guess it was like I slapped your mother. o.O

Defiler wrote:Or highlight the fact those weapons typically have no reason to be fired at warriors, wyches in the first place?

Really? You don't use Flamestorms to drop entire swaths of troops? Even better if the troops will get no save and will get no FNP? What about 24 Str 6 shots from a warwalker squadron? You couldn't fathom that being used to take down a unit of Wyches that is about to assault your fire dragons, which you'd rather use on a Ravager or maybe Vect's Dias? Guess you'll only use Bolter fire and lasgun shots - the ones that they will get FNP from.

Yeah. . .

Right if the rumoured WWP is true, gunlines would struggle because you would just start one person on the board in a raider and then in your first just zoom 24" and if able the +2D6 so thats 31" on aveage and next turn bring in tons of wych and stuff like talos thus making it in to combat first turn there on the board or is this the wrong idea for WWP i may have miss read it?

Actually Oldone that wouldn't work. You can't deploy it from inside a vehicle and you can't debark if you move over 12". Though a variation of this strategy could work if the +2d6" doesn't count toward the total distance moved. I kinda like the idea but we'll need to read the codex first

Ahhh damn i hadn't thought about being in the raider i just asume you could, sorry =P.

Hulksmash wrote:Actually Oldone that wouldn't work. You can't deploy it from inside a vehicle and you can't debark if you move over 12". Though a variation of this strategy could work if the +2d6" doesn't count toward the total distance moved. I kinda like the idea but we'll need to read the codex first

Also, didn't it take an entire turn for it to open? Meaning, the squad moves forward, plants it and then has to wait till their following turn when it stabilizes? Giving the enemy a chance to negate the entire army by killing the WWP holder?

Wonder if they mitigated that. Like making it indestructible when it is placed.

From what I read they have taken that part out Puma. Now it just counts as that models shooting (so he can't fire his weapon but the rest of the squad can) and that's it. The only condition is that he has to be on foot. Can't thorw it off the side of a raider . I'm so dying to see the codex but it's not in store yet.....

-sigh-

Poison Weapons are Sx... AGAIN.

2nd time now GW will have to errata this.

It's almost like they deliberately refuse to write rules correctly.

Gwar! wrote:It's almost like they deliberately refuse to write rules correctly.

The HELL you say!! Well, we'll get a nice FAQ and errata sheet that answers roughly 10% of our questions in 4-6 months, so why the long face? Oh yeah, there's also the distinct possibility of nerfing/un-nerfing the army via these FAQs depending on how well or poorly they are selling, so that's always a hoot.

I would hope, in this case, that in an army filled with lance and melta-lance weapons that we could just not shoot poison weaponry at vehicles. Can we just agree this is not a proper course of action? Please?

I wouldn't be surprised if the web way portal acts like the Necron monolith whereas you have to use it as an entry point once it is down. Either way I don't think it is broken considering all your raider mounted squads could deep strike or boost on any ways. it will be interesting to see some variations to lists using this method though. Hopefully it will be a balanced alternative to raider spam.

Skarboy wrote:

Gwar! wrote:It's almost like they deliberately refuse to write rules correctly.

The HELL you say!! Well, we'll get a nice FAQ and errata sheet that answers roughly 10% of our questions in 4-6 months, so why the long face? Oh yeah, there's also the distinct possibility of nerfing/un-nerfing the army via these FAQs depending on how well or poorly they are selling, so that's always a hoot.

I would hope, in this case, that in an army filled with lance and melta-lance weapons that we could just not shoot poison weaponry at vehicles. Can we just agree this is not a proper course of action? Please?

Oh no, according to "Thomas", who works at the GW I went to, they have a "guy who writes FAQs now."

Why they couldn't get him to look at the codex BEFORE it goes to the printers is a mystery.

GW Moves in Mysterious ways it seems.

Gwar! wrote:-sigh-

Poison Weapons are Sx... AGAIN.

2nd time now GW will have to errata this.

It's almost like they deliberately refuse to write rules correctly.

So what's the deal again? Why do they need to errata this?

Luthon1234 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-sigh-

Poison Weapons are Sx... AGAIN.

2nd time now GW will have to errata this.

It's almost like they deliberately refuse to write rules correctly.

So what's the deal again? Why do they need to errata this?

First of all, Ranged Poision weapons don't work (there are only rules for poisioned CCW).

Secondly, SX means that you could argue that they get the Poison Re-roll on anything with T less than the firing models Strength, which is why they errata'd the Hellfire Rounds to be S1.

It would just be easier if they errata'd-in a "Poisoned" ruleset for ranged weapons. They could literally copy the existing rules, and just change a couple words out and remove the re-roll to wound line.

EDIT: In the other thread, it looks like Cover/Invul saves can be made against the Implosion missiles. This makes me much happier.

Gwar! wrote:Oh no, according to "Thomas", who works at the GW I went to, they have a "guy who writes FAQs now."

Why they couldn't get him to look at the codex BEFORE it goes to the printers is a mystery.

GW Moves in Mysterious ways it seems.

Apparently so. Proofreading and fact-checking is probably considered beardy or something. Jervis probably bellowed, "Dark Eldar wouldn't hire proofreaders, you WAAC douchebags!" Something along those lines. Plus, it's not in the FAQ-guy's best interest to let solid documents out the door; then he'd have nothing to errata.

Frankly, the most disappointing thing about this entire release is the poor performance by the pirate community. No leaked PDF of the codex yet?! Such lazy criminals we have in this generation. Back in my day, we had leaked codexes distributed on parchment BEFORE the harvest, not after. *shakes fist in anger towards "youth"*

Gwar! wrote:

Luthon1234 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:-sigh-

Poison Weapons are Sx... AGAIN.

2nd time now GW will have to errata this.

It's almost like they deliberately refuse to write rules correctly.

So what's the deal again? Why do they need to errata this?

First of all, Ranged Poision weapons don't work (there are only rules for poisioned CCW).

Secondly, SX means that you could argue that they get the Poison Re-roll on anything with T less than the firing models Strength, which is why they errata'd the Hellfire Rounds to be S1.

Ok at first I was considering common sense but yea I get what you mean. Ewww that's really bad on GW's part.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone read anything about warriors and close combat, as well as wyches that aren't carrying special weapons etc? Just b/c their shooting attacks are poison doesn't mean their cc attacks are. CC would still use the models S3 unless specifically mentioned.




If it's written the same as on page 1 of this thread, "Splinter weaponry makes a wound in a 4+" without a reference to poison weapons, then there shouldn't be an issue.

Gwar! wrote:-sigh-

Poison Weapons are Sx... AGAIN.

2nd time now GW will have to errata this.

It's almost like they deliberately refuse to write rules correctly.

Its mostly a case of the design team living in a bubble, since GW feels secrecy about their upcoming products are more important than external playtesting and proof-reading

Added most of todays info in the first page summary (bright red this time), but it is already too much as you can see.
Guess it is about time to stop updating it.

Anyone seen the cost of Scourges or their weapons yet? It's interesting that they increased the unit size to 10 for these weapons. Wonder if it's like, 2 weapon per every 5 unit members or something.

puma713 wrote:Anyone seen the cost of Scourges or their weapons yet?

I have. They're the cost of Marneus Calgar divided by the square root of 2 Termagants multipled by half a Carnifex or half a Land Raider, depending on whether you take the upgrade on your Archon that costs as much as 3 Banshees + 1 Kroot Hound.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

puma713 wrote:Anyone seen the cost of Scourges or their weapons yet?

I have. They're the cost of Marneus Calgar divided by the square root of 2 Termagants multipled by half a Carnifex or half a Land Raider, depending on whether you take the upgrade on your Archon that costs as much as 3 Banshees + 1 Kroot Hound.

Oh ok. Thanks.

HBMC rocks =D

You're hilarity and comedic value is unbound

But yes, I also would like to know the actual cost of the Scourges.

Oshova

I would tell you, but my trip (2 hours on a train) was wasted because the jerky jerks of jerkness wouldn't let me read the codex "Because you guys have had it for 2 hours" (this being 10 mins after I walk in and someone else was reading it).

It's times like this I wish I still worked for GW . . . "Boss can I borrow the codex tonight?" . . . "Yeah sure, as long as it's back by morning, and not all over the internet."

Oshova

And then fired when you walked in because they dont want to hire people who play the hobby!

Well actually you need to be able to do the hobby to work there, you need to be able to play all 3 systems. Be able to give hobby lessons to customers etc . . . But yes, they do have quite a big view on being able to sell stuff . . . damn those retailers wanting to make money . . . got me out of a job

Oshova

Just a few notes after taking a look:

-Nightshields work the same as current, the 5+ inul save is called a flickerfeild. They cost 10pnts each.

- You cannot assault or shoot from a raider after it takes the extra 2d6 move.

- Kabalite Trueborn can take up to 4 special weapons.

- Blaster now has an 18 inch range and costs 15 points.

- The member to the archon's retinue that gives 2+ poison only gives the 2+ poison to weapons that are already poisonous. So, no 2+ to wound huskblades. That retinue member costs 10 points.

There, I coughed up 5 things you you mooks, and feel no need to wrack my brain for further details at this time.

sharkticon wrote:Just a few notes after taking a look:

-Nightshields work the same as current, the 5+ inul save is called a flickerfeild. They cost 10pnts each.

- You cannot assault or shoot from a raider after it takes the extra 2d6 move.

- Kabalite Trueborn can take up to 4 special weapons.

- Blaster now has an 18 inch range and costs 15 points.

- The member to the archon's retinue that gives 2+ poison only gives the 2+ poison to weapons that are already poisonous. So, no 2+ to wound huskblades. That retinue member costs 10 points.

There, I coughed up 5 things you you mooks, and feel no need to wrack my brain for further details at this time.

Thanks Sharkticon. Here's an avatar for you for your efforts:

You gained 10 experience! You gained 20 gold pieces! You gained an Avatar!

So for those people who have done a detailed examination of the codex. What army is closest to the Dark Eldar in play style? I really don't want to go to the one store I know of that has a preview codex, not my favorite people there.

I'm looking at doing Space Wolves, or now that Dark Eldar is out, them for a new army. Have Dark Angels as my current primary army. Love the fast and hard hitting assault armies that don't always survie long after they attack. Do the Dark Eldar fit into that mold?

Ringarin wrote:So for those people who have done a detailed examination of the codex. What army is closest to the Dark Eldar in play style? I really don't want to go to the one store I know of that has a preview codex, not my favorite people there.

I'm looking at doing Space Wolves, or now that Dark Eldar is out, them for a new army. Have Dark Angels as my current primary army. Love the fast and hard hitting assault armies that don't always survie long after they attack. Do the Dark Eldar fit into that mold?

Dark Eldar can be compared to Speed Freaks, and the new book sounds like the only main changes were the almost army wide ability to ramp up after destroying units (Feel no Pain, Furious Charge, then Fearless).

Other than that, they are still the glass cannon army they used to be, and require great finesse to even just compete with more straight forward armies. If you have the aptitude for detail and micro-managing, you can succeed with the army. If you don't want every game to be a chess match against a master, I would advice looking elsewhere.

Ringarin wrote:Love the fast and hard hitting assault armies that don't always survie long after they attack. Do the Dark Eldar fit into that mold?

That is basically the definition of Dark Eldar exactly. They don't just fit that mold, they are the mold.

It may be the definition, but most existing DE armies were based more around shooting than assault (the dated codex being the main reason), so many people won't realise this.

@ Defiler. They are still going to be a finesse army, much like they and their less spikey brethren already were/are, but the addition of Pain points is going to make them much more noob friendly than they were. I'll wait until I have played a few games with them but I have a feeling that in the hands of an experienced player a well built DE list utilising Pain Points will be very difficult to stop. I can see quite a few games rapidly going downhill and becoming one sided rather quickly. You Alpha Strike half the enemy army in the first turn, crippling his ability to fight while at the same time making your units even stronger

gorgon wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Think of tattered raven wings, and it works alot better.

In fact, aren't groups of ravens sometimes referred to as "scourges"?
I know a group of crows is a "murder", but eh. Food for thought.

An unkindness of ravens, actually. That's one of the better ones. Parliament of owls is another good one.

Back on topic, that's probably a good description. It's an aggressive look in the art. More Hawkman than angelic.

My Oxford English dictionary lists it as a sadness of ravens, and a stare of owls.

Pip pip, hear hear.

I do wonder though how far GW will carry this release. I mean, they even changed the front page up a bit to show off that they are returning. But what will happen in two months time?

Scottywan82 wrote:My Oxford English dictionary lists it as a sadness of ravens, and a stare of owls.

Interesting...the Audubon Society doesn't seem to recognize either of those. It appears these things may be more fluid that it first appears.

http://palomaraudubon.org/collective.html

BrookM wrote: what will happen in two months time?

Christmas.

Then, in 3 months time, Grey Knights get their turn to shine. Which is fair and good, they also still have a third edition codex.

Don't worry about the Deldar getting forgotten for another decade after this release. The reliable rumour mongers have already confirmed another wave of plastic kits in the not completely distant future.

Another vote for "what's the point cost of Scourges?"

I am really interested to see what becomes of the razorwing and the voidraven. Is the void raven that same model from forge world? Are there any plans to make these plastic kits?

Magnalon wrote:Another vote for "what's the point cost of Scourges?"

Fast moving anti-horde, for one. Equip with four splinter cannon in a full squad to get 42 poisoned shots at 18 inches, if the stated information thus far is accurate. They can fire 34 shots while moving at 12" per turn, which a Raider cannot do (if it moves over 6", the squad on board cannot shoot without disembarking, and still doesn't have this much firepower even if it does disembark). If the unit wants to hang back, it can put 16 such shots down at 36" range.

If the unit is inexpensive enough, it might make for semi-suicide anti-tank roles using the heat lance.

Haven't seen the price/stats for the shredder, so even these might have a use.

Ummm he was asking the "point cost" not "the point". There is an important difference.

The Night Stalker wrote:I am really interested to see what becomes of the razorwing and the voidraven. Is the void raven that same model from forge world? Are there any plans to make these plastic kits?

Nope, GW still need to make tyranid kits which they haven't done...

Saldiven wrote:

Magnalon wrote:Another vote for "what's the point cost of Scourges?"

Fast moving anti-horde, for one. Equip with four splinter cannon in a full squad to get 42 poisoned shots at 18 inches, if the stated information thus far is accurate. They can fire 34 shots while moving at 12" per turn, which a Raider cannot do (if it moves over 6", the squad on board cannot shoot without disembarking, and still doesn't have this much firepower even if it does disembark). If the unit wants to hang back, it can put 16 such shots down at 36" range.

If the unit is inexpensive enough, it might make for semi-suicide anti-tank roles using the heat lance.

Haven't seen the price/stats for the shredder, so even these might have a use.

Except the rumor is they come with splinter carbines, and at most only 2 of them can switch that out for another weapon...

razorwing = old forgeworld model

void raven = new model in the dark eldar codex

void dragon phoenix = eldar/dark eldar model from forgeworld

I'm shure they have plans for making all models in the codex some day, but no one has any idea of the timetable for these future kits.

Kinda like the ones from the Tyranids codex that have no model. The advantage is we wont have to wait 5+ years for a codex update to get new models, they could pop up anytime in the future.

2 of 5 Chaos. He clearly stated a full squad (just looking at the math shows this as well) which can have 4 heavies as....they have 10 models!

chaos0xomega wrote:
Except the rumor is they come with splinter carbines, and at most only 2 of them can switch that out for another weapon...

I based my post on the updated OP which states that Scourges come standard with the Assault 3 splinter weapon and that a full squad of 10 can have four special/heavy weapons. That's the rumor that I'm working with; not sure which rumor you're working with.

Scourges, you say? From memory...

3-10
22 pts/model.

Two per five can replace their carbine with one of the following:

-Shredder 5
-Splinter cannon 10
-Haywire launcher 10
-Heat lance 12
-Blaster 15
-Dark Lance 15

Solarite (upgrade char) is +10 pts.
- can swap carbine for CCW and splinter pistol for free
- can replace ccw with
-----venom blade (2+ poison) 5
-----power weapon 10
-----agonizer 20
-can replace pistol with blast pistol (6", S8, AP2, Lance) 15

gorgon wrote:Scourges, you say? From memory...

3-10
22 pts/model.

Two per five can replace their carbine with one of the following:

-Shredder 5
-Splinter cannon 10
-Haywire launcher 10
-Heat lance 12
-Blaster 15
-Dark Lance 15

Solarite (upgrade char) is +10 pts.
- can swap carbine for CCW and splinter pistol for free
- can replace ccw with
-----venom blade (2+ poison) 5
-----power weapon 10
-----agonizer 20
-can replace pistol with blast pistol (6", S8, AP2, Lance) 15

Any decent rules wise?

Deep strike, jump packs. Nothing else special that I recall.

While I'm at it, here's a cleaned-up and expanded Wyches breakdown (again from memory):

Wyches 10 pts.
5-20
4/4/3/3/1/6/1/8/10/6+

Armed with: Close combat weapon, combat drugs, plasma grenades, splinter pistol, wychsuit.
Special Rules: Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain, Combat Drugs. Dodge (4+): Wyches have 4+ Inv save in CC

Unit can take haywire grenades for 2 pts/model.

Hekatrix (+10 pts, A2)
-Venom blade 5
-Power weapon 10
-Agoniser 20

-Phantasm launcher 10 or 15

EDIT: I think they also have the Blast Pistol option (15)

Wych weapons are one per 5 models:
- Shardnet and Impaler (10): Counts as 2CCW, every enemy model in base contact loses 1 attack to a min of 1
- Hydra gauntlets (10): Count as 2CCW and grants +D6 attacks instead of the +1 for 2 ccw
- Razorflails (10): Count as 2CCW, reroll to hit and wound.

Bigger with Ogryn stats. S/T5 3W, FNP. Don't have strength through pain rule. Urien allows them to be upgraded to S6. Shoot S4 AP4 Assault 2 fire attacks.
They take up 2 spaces in a transport (like Ogryn) they have to take a Ld test if an IC isn't accompanying them, and if they fail they inflict 2D6 attacks on nearby units before all dying.

Urien Rakarth
Master Haemunculus.
Gives out d3 free pain tokens at the start of the game, which must go to wrack or grotesque units,
also regains a wound at the start of each of his turns as his flesh re-knits itself.
He can make the small constructs troops, and he can give grotesques S6 instead of their usual S5 for 5 points each.


So if he can only give the pain tokens to wrack or grotesque, but grotesque doesnt have STP ability does that mean he can basically only give it to wracks?

The rule is POWER through Pain, btw.

Don't know if this has been mentioned before, as I can't be arsed to trawl through 22 pages, but Lelith Hesparex has the best ballistic skill of any character within Warhammer 40K. She has WS and BS 9, yet, the sick irony is that she has no ranged weapons of any kind. Not even a pistol!

She can stare daggers and has looks that kill.

she'll be great at shooting the weapon emplacements in Planetstrike!

Valkyrie wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned before, as I can't be arsed to trawl through 22 pages, but Lelith Hesparex has the best ballistic skill of any character within Warhammer 40K. She has WS and BS 9, yet, the sick irony is that she has no ranged weapons of any kind. Not even a pistol!

Lols. Sounds like something GW would do... Maybe you can write a mission where she can man a turret and have a ball.

Valkyrie wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned before, as I can't be arsed to trawl through 22 pages, but Lelith Hesparex has the best ballistic skill of any character within Warhammer 40K. She has WS and BS 9, yet, the sick irony is that she has no ranged weapons of any kind. Not even a pistol!

It's always struck me odd that the Avatar of War only has a 5. That's not even as high as some of his worshippers.

It's too angry to aim properly.

gorgon wrote:Deep strike, jump packs. Nothing else special that I recall.

Still useless then :/

The weapons they can bring the the battle field seem a tick or two above 'useless' though.

Skarboy wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned before, as I can't be arsed to trawl through 22 pages, but Lelith Hesparex has the best ballistic skill of any character within Warhammer 40K. She has WS and BS 9, yet, the sick irony is that she has no ranged weapons of any kind. Not even a pistol!

Lols. Sounds like something GW would do... Maybe you can write a mission where she can man a turret and have a ball.

It makes sense to me that if you train with a sword, that means you can shoot really well, right?

Hey you guys remember the days of warhammer fantasy when a chaos lord and bloodthirsters had BS 10 and they could never use ranged weapons....... Its not new behavior for them to do silly crap like that lol.....
I agree it is dumb.

Alpharius wrote:The weapons they can bring the the battle field seem a tick or two above 'useless' though.

Actually, I like the carbines plus maybe splinter cannons more than the anti-vehicle specials. It's a good amount of 4+ poison dakka.

Wonder if any Leilith models have already been sold on pre-order partly on the back of the outstanding BS

So the lessons were well and truly learned after that gaff the, Red?

Skarboy wrote:

Valkyrie wrote:Don't know if this has been mentioned before, as I can't be arsed to trawl through 22 pages, but Lelith Hesparex has the best ballistic skill of any character within Warhammer 40K. She has WS and BS 9, yet, the sick irony is that she has no ranged weapons of any kind. Not even a pistol!

Lols. Sounds like something GW would do... Maybe you can write a mission where she can man a turret and have a ball.

She actually has a terrible BS, she just murders anyone that finds out.

Alpharius wrote:The weapons they can bring the the battle field seem a tick or two above 'useless' though.

What heat lance? thats it...

suppose it's a good job they are fast attack now someone might use them.

A full unit with splinter cannon put out 42 poisoned shots at 18" or 24 poisoned shots at 36".

plastictrees wrote:She actually has a terrible BS, she just murders anyone that finds out.

A conspiracy theory. I like it. When she failed her intermediate marksmanship course, she "mysteriously" started to dual wield knives and her instructor disappeared under shady circumstances.

Saldiven wrote:A full unit with splinter cannon put out 42 poisoned shots at 18" or 24 poisoned shots at 36".

Yes, but can't warriors do that and be cheaper too?.

Saldiven wrote:A full unit with splinter cannon put out 42 poisoned shots at 18" or 24 poisoned shots at 36".

And against an IG parking lot, that 240 pt. unit what? -May- glance a Chimera? I like poison and all as much as the next guy, but I'm not so sure it is going to be the saving grace of the DE. They're still going to have trouble with IG (who doesn't, I guess), but the only ones really shaking in their boots about all this poison is Tyranids, I would imagine.

And they've lost a bit of their anti-tank. Granted, they've gained it back in other places (heat lances, deep-striking raiders, ravagers that can move 12" and fire), but to take a unit cost and double it, DE players are going to feel it and I have a feeling they're going to have to take a few losses trying to mold their old playstyle into their new one.

And that's where the bandwagoneers jump, usually. When they've lost and they don't feel the passion for the army anymore.

Yea, at something like 35+ points a model, I don't think people will be taking a unit of scourges with cannons. Plus they take fewer cannons now. Sooner see them going with trueborn with cannons.

Can you then join an archon with court to a unit of trueborn? Or the court aren't IC status?

Nvs wrote:Yea, at something like 35+ points a model, I don't think people will be taking a unit of scourges with cannons. Plus they take fewer cannons now. Sooner see them going with trueborn with cannons.

Can you then join an archon with court to a unit of trueborn? Or the court aren't IC status?

No. Whether it was a retinue or not. The Archon would be an IC and lose IC status since he is attached to the retinue or would be an IC and simply become a part of the Court until he decided to leave (and in CC, of course).

At this particular moment, I'm kinda liking Wyches for Archon bodyguard duty, at least if you're planning on Raidering up and getting the Archon stuck in.

Once you're in CC, it's inv. saves across the board and more offensive output from the unit. Seems like it'd have to do dramatically better with combat res, which would potentially be an issue for an Archon riding with Warriors or even Trueborn.

It may occur to me why this is a very bad idea, but it sounds good at 4:47 this afternoon.

Yeah I'm thinking of going Archite and wyches...

I'm thinking the best stuck in and possibly best wounding unit is Wracks w/a Haemonculi leading them. 9 of them with a Champion w/Agoniser in a raider costs a whopping 175. If the Haemon joins them then a) they're troops (doesn't have to join but as long as you brought him this works) and b) they have furious charge. Now that's 24 WS4 S4 Poison Attacks plus 4 Agoniser attacks. That's just nasty. Especially with the FnP. The higher toughness and 6+/4+ FnP actually make them better against anything except for power weapons.

I spent about 2 hours going over the book and I really, really like it. It's very much based on building interlocking support units. Trueborn oddly enough can be taken in units of 3 w/2 Dark Lances if you choose. Sorta like a mini dev-squad. I don't think I'd use the Wych Elites but they are kinda neat. Basically 3pts more per model for an extra attack and leadership. I can see the Skyboard SC in almost every army. He's pretty awesome and his point cost is ridiculously low (think current Ravager). I love that basically there are 4 possible troop choices in the army based on what kind of characters you bring. Lots of shots but most people won't be keeping those Disentegrator Ravagers since it's not templates anymore. I'll be picking up 2-3 and using them all dark lance as my vehicle hunters. The cost of Haywire grenades is also half what it was for wyches which is amazing!

All in all I really, really like the new codex and put in my pre-order for 5 Raiders, 3 boxes of wyches, the codex, and a box of warriors for trueborns. Can't wait!

@Hulk Smash: Can a warrior heavy army work? If so how?

I was thinking along the following lines for 1500pts:

Archon with Incubi body guards in Raider

3-4x10 warriors with Splinter cannon (or another choice if something else is better) all in raiders

3xRavagers with Dark lances for tank hunting (would most likely give them the deep strike ability to try and smack people from behind)

Thoughts?

Hulksmash wrote:I'm thinking the best stuck in and possibly best wounding unit is Wracks w/a Haemonculi leading them. 9 of them with a Champion w/Agoniser in a raider costs a whopping 175. If the Haemon joins them then a) they're troops (doesn't have to join but as long as you brought him this works)

Thought it was specifically Rakarth that made them troops.

I think this product line delivers.

Hobbyists are certainly happy about Jes' work so far.

Casual gamers are getting a new list archetype to collect and enjoy in the haemonculii freakshow.

Competitive gamers seem to be getting a very cleaned up and streamlined version of their old tried and true mech list.

This brings me to the only real drag (albeit a small one). My first pass through the rules and concentrating on a competitive build has me coming up with this.

vect

4x elite warriors 4x blasters raider 5++ dark lance
4x elite warriors 4x blasters raider 5++ dark lance
4x elite warriors 4x blasters raider 5++ dark lance

5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance

ravager 3x disintegrators 5++
ravager 3x disintegrators 5++
ravager 3x disintegrators 5++

Look familiar? To me it looks like a fun list. Minimum 75% chance to go first, massive alpha strike potential, speedy. But to the loyal followers of dark eldar throughout the years, its nothing new. 36" flat out and a 5++ save, and vect has more options and configurations to bring. But it is really just too similar to the functional lists from before. Thats really more of a demi-complaint than anything. I'd really enjoy playing against this list and with this list.

Other units and builds I am certainly keeping an eye on. The bomber looks very nice as the game scales up larger, and there is almost certainly a competitive wwp foot list in there, wracks as a core and harlies outflanking unless a wwp pops up for them. The bikes look to be tuned well enough also.

The successes of this book will only serve to highlight the many missed opportunities of the undertuned tyranid book. I am going to remain stubbornly loyal (read: masochistic) and try and get those bugs to represent. But when you look at Phil's elegant and workable WWP rules, and then glance over at the trygon's non-rule for tunneling, you just get sad. If only they would "patch" their game with regular codex updates.

Well, DE players. Enjoy this release. I'll be enjoying it vicariously through my DE playing friends.

People who think there are no competitive builds in Nids will make the same mistake here. Can't see the forest for the trees. Nids and DE will have formidable builds; they just aren't as dummyproof as IG, SW, and BA. As someone who has waited a long time for new models (the codex is gravy), I'm going to have plenty of fun smashing people to bits.

Ok, I got to gander at the DE codex today at the FLGS here in Jacksonville NC. Heres the rules I gathered that aren't already shown:

Talos : Str 7/T7/3 wounds/3+ save . Has some crazy tail attack that it injects venom into its foes, and you need to take a toughness test or be insta-killed.
Mandrakes: They DO have power from pain, 5+ invun standard, only come with CCW and the rules stated
Incubi: 22 pts a piece
Archon: 60 pts
Raiders: 60 pts. The 5+ invun save is called FLICKERFIELD. Its an available upgrade for most of the DE vehicles. 10 pts for it. Nightshields are in, 10 pts. 5 or 6 other upgrades (cost 5-10 pts each), didn't gather too many more specifics
Named Mandrake guy: Basic mandrake with str 5/T5 3 wounds. He can decapitate foes (instant kill), and like with the sanguinor, picks an HQ at the beginning of the game to "hunt".

Shadow field IS IN. The way it reads now is you roll EACH WOUND individually until it shorts out, and from then on its your base save.

Most everything outside incubi have a 6+ base save (grotesques, warriors, wyches, wracks, etc.). Several have 5+ invuns. The bird things (Screetchs I think they're called) have a 4+ normal, 4+ in CC.

Most of this is accurate, I took about 20 minutes glancing the codex. I'll get another look tomorrow and post more info.

From my initial look over, Dark Eldar (like before) are strong CC. They are VERY vunderable to shooting, however. All vehicles are AV 11 (the razorflyingthing, ravagers) or AV 10 (everything else) outside from Vects Dais. Everythings fast, and as mentioned before, webway vehicles cannot use it. However, The new webway reads that ALL models held in reserve by the DE player (including deep striking, etc. units) use the webway. Its odd that vehicles cannot, but I see why; if you could have a buttload of wyches starting 18" up on the table, move 12", disembark, and assault starting T2, thats a little disgusting lol

But looking it over, I don't see anything that looks like it'll be cheap and broken like SW can be or IG... but we'll have to see when they hit the table

puma713 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:I'm thinking the best stuck in and possibly best wounding unit is Wracks w/a Haemonculi leading them. 9 of them with a Champion w/Agoniser in a raider costs a whopping 175. If the Haemon joins them then a) they're troops (doesn't have to join but as long as you brought him this works)

Thought it was specifically Rakarth that made them troops.

Haemi Ancient does it too.

Skarboy wrote:People who think there are no competitive builds in Nids will make the same mistake here. Can't see the forest for the trees. Nids and DE will have formidable builds; they just aren't as dummyproof as IG, SW, and BA. As someone who has waited a long time for new models (the codex is gravy), I'm going to have plenty of fun smashing people to bits.

I don't think he was saying that DE won't have a competitive build, but that the build will be very similar to what they were before the codex was released, which is sort of a letdown both for the fans of DE and for GW, I'd presume. It looks like they took the pre-codex build and just gave the codex more options around it while maybe trying to do something about dark lance spam (which, if they were, failed).

gorgon wrote:Deep strike, jump packs. Nothing else special that I recall.

While I'm at it, here's a cleaned-up and expanded Wyches breakdown (again from memory):

Wyches 10 pts.
5-20
4/4/3/3/1/6/1/8/10/6+

Armed with: Close combat weapon, combat drugs, plasma grenades, splinter pistol, wychsuit.
Special Rules: Fleet, Night Vision, Power from Pain, Combat Drugs. Dodge (4+): Wyches have 4+ Inv save in CC

Unit can take haywire grenades for 2 pts/model.

Hekatrix (+10 pts, A2)
-Venom blade 5
-Power weapon 10
-Agoniser 20

-Phantasm launcher 10 or 15

EDIT: I think they also have the Blast Pistol option (15)

Wych weapons are one per 5 models:
- Shardnet and Impaler (10): Counts as 2CCW, every enemy model in base contact loses 1 attack to a min of 1
- Hydra gauntlets (10): Count as 2CCW and grants +D6 attacks instead of the +1 for 2 ccw
- Razorflails (10): Count as 2CCW, reroll to hit and wound.

It seems that I keep missing it, so I apologize, but... what does a Wychsuit do? It doesn't seem to be described in the unit entries.

gorgon wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:I'm thinking the best stuck in and possibly best wounding unit is Wracks w/a Haemonculi leading them. 9 of them with a Champion w/Agoniser in a raider costs a whopping 175. If the Haemon joins them then a) they're troops (doesn't have to join but as long as you brought him this works)

Thought it was specifically Rakarth that made them troops.

Haemi Ancient does it too.

Also, I believe Wracks were only T4... Grotesques, however, seem pretty rad. T5 with 3 wounds is siiiickkkk

Actually any Haemonculus does it. Just as a heads up. It clearly states in the little box if your army includes a Haemonculi Wracks are troops. Which is awesome.

My guess honestly is you'll see the Baron a lot. As for a warrior based army it's possible but honestly I feel like for 1 point the other options outshine them. Wyches and Wracks being 10pts each and each having their own survivability bonus is big. You'd probably be better off honestly with that style army if you made all the troops Wracks. You could do the all warrior thing but it costs more than it used to and their not more survivable until you kill a unit.

@Puma

I actually think there are quite a few builds. The standard build you saw before won't work as well based on the weapon and pt. changes. You'll have to squeeze elsewhere to get the MSU armies. Though it is fun to note that the elite wyches and warriors are minimum size 3 which opens up some possibilities

Are the 1-3 Haemonculus unit treated as 1 unit or 3 units that opperate seperately?

Hulksmash wrote:

@Puma

I actually think there are quite a few builds. The standard build you saw before won't work as well based on the weapon and pt. changes. You'll have to squeeze elsewhere to get the MSU armies. Though it is fun to note that the elite wyches and warriors are minimum size 3 which opens up some possibilities

Based on point-costs that have been listed, Shep's list above is about 1890. That's 110 leftover for more stuff and, if he didn't take disintegrators on his ravagers, would be 18 dark lances. Not a far cry from the old dex lists.

@Shep -- You're not the only one who was shaking his head reading the WWP rules and thinking about Trygon tunnels.

Actually Puma your off on your points. Shep's list is actually closer to

Vect-240
3x4 Trueborn w/4 Blasters in a Raider w/Shield-534
6x5 Warriors w/Blaster in Shielded Raider-780
3xShielded Ravagers-345

1,899

But yeah, you can make something similar to the old lists. 100pts with only fast attack to buy nets you exactly 4 bikes and maybe a special.It just still won't up the current crop of IG and SW. And with the loss of small blasts on the Ravagers your actually hurting against hordes with this list too. Current lists are going to need to incorporate elements and thankfully those elements are there. And on the subject of 18 St8 shots at range. I can tell you it's not enough to win games without support. My wolves regularly need more than just their 19 missile launchers to get the job done.

@Gorgon

Ahhhh, the difference between Kelly and Cruddance......

On a side note anyone think Kelly might have been mad about not getting to do the new Nids? Both of his newest codexes seem custom tailored to make Nids cry. I'm just sayin.....

And back on topic:

With WWP being only 35pts and being available to Archons and all Haemonculi could make for a cool army. Think about 2 Haemonculi in Wrack squads in Raiders. Each has a WWP. Move up, deploy, deploy both WWP (Generally bracketting enemy army) and then turn 2 Bikes, Wracks, Wyches, and Talo's come running out and hammer the mean men. Could be a neat list. Just a fun thought.

If this is really all there is to Mandrakes:

Mandrakes
5-10 Mandrakes
4/4/4/3/1/5/2/?/5++
single ccw, 5+ invulnerable
Whenever a unit with this rule has at least one pain token, each model has the following shooting attack: 18” S4 AP4 Assault 2, Pinning
Special Rules: Stealth, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Fleet, Infiltrate, Power Through Pain

Color me disappointed... No Rending? No Poison? No Power Weapons? They have to earn their shooting attack? Crappy armor save? I'm failing to see how this is an Elite unit. Once again they are a hth unit which rather sucks at hth.
Their shooting attack almost redeems them, but, alas, it's only AP4.
I guess the rumors were completely false? Somebody tell me I missed something...

Archonate wrote:If this is really all there is to Mandrakes:

Mandrakes
5-10 Mandrakes
4/4/4/3/1/5/2/?/5++
single ccw, 5+ invulnerable
Whenever a unit with this rule has at least one pain token, each model has the following shooting attack: 18” S4 AP4 Assault 2, Pinning
Special Rules: Stealth, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Fleet, Infiltrate, Power Through Pain

Color me disappointed... No Rending? No Poison? No Power Weapons? They have to earn their shooting attack? Crappy armor save? I'm failing to see how this is an Elite unit. Once again they are a hth unit which rather sucks at hth.
Their shooting attack almost redeems them, but, alas, it's only AP4.
I guess the rumors were completely false? Somebody tell me I missed something...

Yeah they look pretty crappy. Like gimped horrors.

Archonate wrote:If this is really all there is to Mandrakes:

Mandrakes
5-10 Mandrakes
4/4/4/3/1/5/2/?/5++
single ccw, 5+ invulnerable
Whenever a unit with this rule has at least one pain token, each model has the following shooting attack: 18” S4 AP4 Assault 2, Pinning
Special Rules: Stealth, Move Through Cover, Night Vision, Fleet, Infiltrate, Power Through Pain

Color me disappointed... No Rending? No Poison? No Power Weapons? They have to earn their shooting attack? Crappy armor save? I'm failing to see how this is an Elite unit. Once again they are a hth unit which rather sucks at hth.
Their shooting attack almost redeems them, but, alas, it's only AP4.
I guess the rumors were completely false? Somebody tell me I missed something...

I believe they have upgrades, but yeah, thats basically how they read in the dex

They dont have any upgrades, just a sergeant. Mandrakes are probably the most disappointing unit in the book because they get some of best new models. I dont understand why GW must always have atleast 1 unit with new models suck almost completely. Its like they dont *want* to sell them

That's disappointing...oh well, I wasn't too interested in the mandrakes anyway.

Such a shame too, on the website they said scultping them was a real pain. And it was all for nothing because they fethed up on rules. X)

Hopefully the same doesn't hold true for the rest of the book...

Sidstyler wrote:That's disappointing...oh well, I wasn't too interested in the mandrakes anyway.

Such a shame too, on the website they said scultping them was a real pain. And it was all for nothing because they fethed up on rules. X)

Hopefully the same doesn't hold true for the rest of the book...

Lelith is a bit of a disappointment too (from what we've heard, anyway). No poison, no drugs, Str. 3. Sure, she gets 7-10 power-weapon attacks, but she still needs 3's to hit and most often 5+/6+ to wound. Unless she's got a furious charge going off and, even then it's 4+ with no re-roll because of no poison. =/

puma713 wrote:

Sidstyler wrote:That's disappointing...oh well, I wasn't too interested in the mandrakes anyway.

Such a shame too, on the website they said scultping them was a real pain. And it was all for nothing because they fethed up on rules. X)

Hopefully the same doesn't hold true for the rest of the book...

Lelith is a bit of a disappointment too (from what we've heard, anyway). No poison, no drugs, Str. 3. Sure, she gets 7-10 power-weapon attacks, but she still needs 3's to hit and most often 5+/6+ to wound. Unless she's got a furious charge going off and, even then it's 4+ with no re-roll because of no poison. =/

I can get you an affirmative on any of this tomorrow when I look at the 'dex again

The cheaper special HQs are where its at... You can get duke and baron for the cost of some of the others, and they have awesome abilities

Exactly Kirasu!

105 for a +1 to go first. Make hellions troops. Give a unit of Hellions stealth and skilled rider. St.6-7 on the charge. Shadow Field. Combat Drugs. Sign me up!

Oh and I've got an idea. Now the "Wracks" Statline is: WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I4 A1 and they start with FnP. What would people think of using "captured" space marine scout models that have survived as gladiators? Scout legs, Marauder Torsos and arms and possibly scout/marine heads? I think it'd be an easy way to build them till the models come out (Since we have no idea when that is happening).

Hulksmash wrote:Exactly Kirasu!

105 for a +1 to go first. Make hellions troops. Give a unit of Hellions stealth and skilled rider. St.6-7 on the charge. Shadow Field. Combat Drugs. Sign me up!

Oh and I've got an idea. Now the "Wracks" Statline is: WS4 BS4 S3 T4 W1 I4 A1 and they start with FnP. What would people think of using "captured" space marine scout models that have survived as gladiators? Scout legs, Marauder Torsos and arms and possibly scout/marine heads? I think it'd be an easy way to build them till the models come out (Since we have no idea when that is happening).

When I think of Wracks, these come to mind:

Oh I know. I saw the picture in the book and they are amazing. Since I know I can't do that justice I was thinking of going a different direction till the models came out. And since things like the Arco's are no longer available I had to come up with a decent stand in. And I'm thinking it could work. Especially since they'll always have FnP to start with a Haemonculus attached to them.

"...Lelith is a bit of a disappointment too (from what we've heard, anyway). No poison, no drugs, Str. 3..."

Lelith never had Combat Drugs

toxic_wisdom wrote:"...Lelith is a bit of a disappointment too (from what we've heard, anyway). No poison, no drugs, Str. 3..."

Lelith never had Combat Drugs

Yup. It's an in-joke.

Field Test List...

Coven - Dark Eldar at 1850 points

Haemonculous Ancient ( with Huskblade, Soul Trap, and Crucible of Malediction )
Wracks 9x ( includes Liquifier Gun )
Acothyst upgrade ( with Flesh Gauntlet )
Raider Transport ( with Tormentor Grenade Launchers and Enhanced Aethersails )

Haemonculous ( with Huskblade, Soul Trap, and Webway Portal )
Wracks 9x ( includes Liquifier Gun )
Acothyst upgrade ( with Flesh Gauntlet )
Raider Transport ( with Tormentor Grenade Launchers and Enhanced Aethersails )

Haemonculous ( with Huskblade, Soul Trap, and Webway Portal )
Wracks 9x ( includes Liquifier Gun )
Acothyst upgrade ( with Flesh Gauntlet )
Raider Transport ( with Tormentor Grenade Launchers and Enhanced Aethersails )

Grotesques 5x ( includes Liquifier Gun )
Aberration upgrade ( With Mindphase Gauntlet )
Raider Transport ( with Tormentor Grenade Launchers and Enhanced Aethersails )

Grotesques 5x ( includes Liquifier Gun )
Aberration upgrade ( With Mindphase Gauntlet )
Raider Transport ( with Tormentor Grenade Launchers and Enhanced Aethersails )

Cronos Parasite Engine ( with Spirit Probe and Spirit Vortex )
Cronos Parasite Engine ( with Spirit Probe and Spirit Vortex )
Talos Pain Engine ( with Ichor Injector and Twin Linked Heat Lance )

Looking at the Wracks as troops, Dark Eldar could actually turn out to be one of the potentially toughest armies there is. Minus their vehicles that is...

I'm really liking the look of the rules from what I've heard so far. As has been said, their not as easy to use or over-powered as some Codices but when used right they could be devastating (ala Eldar) and there's a wide variety of options.
Happy Days.

Sucks about mandrakes but oh well, I just want a bunch of the new raiders and wyches

Well at the very least they could work well for tying up enemy units whilst the raiders close or whatever.

They may turn into Tankbusta's: nice models, crud rules.

Or there could be a lot more to them than it seems. I personally believe something could be said for their manoeuvrability and stealth...

Can we please NOT post links to illegal scans, pictures etc etc of this, or indeed any other copyright protected materials please. Your willingness to selflessly help your fellow gamers by providing such services is commendable, but not something we want all over our nice and public boards. Posts relating to such will be deleted and appropriate action taken against people if needs be.

Is a fine looking book though eh ?!

*hulk : but are helions good enough to want an army of them as troops? Or do you just mean taking the helion SC for his rules and not the army?

Fast troops are never a problem....

toxic_wisdom wrote:"...Lelith is a bit of a disappointment too (from what we've heard, anyway). No poison, no drugs, Str. 3..."

Lelith never had Combat Drugs

I know. It was simply a list of things that might've helped her in CC. It's like saying she's not str. 8 either (when she never was).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood of Kittens has pictures of Codex Pages on their site (lots of them, including profiles), if you want to see them:

Link removed by poster. However, if you go to Bell of Lost Souls, the link is there. You could also just go to Blood of Kittens.

Shep wrote:

This brings me to the only real drag (albeit a small one). My first pass through the rules and concentrating on a competitive build has me coming up with this.

vect

4x elite warriors 4x blasters raider 5++ dark lance
4x elite warriors 4x blasters raider 5++ dark lance
4x elite warriors 4x blasters raider 5++ dark lance

5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance
5x warriors 1x blaster raider 5++ dark lance

ravager 3x disintegrators 5++
ravager 3x disintegrators 5++
ravager 3x disintegrators 5++

Look familiar? To me it looks like a fun list. Minimum 75% chance to go first, massive alpha strike potential, speedy. But to the loyal followers of dark eldar throughout the years, its nothing new. 36" flat out and a 5++ save, and vect has more options and configurations to bring. But it is really just too similar to the functional lists from before. Thats really more of a demi-complaint than anything. I'd really enjoy playing against this list and with this list.

It only looks competitive because you're spamming the same 2-3 units over and over again. I assure you that that list is actually fairly weak as far as DE armies can go.

Is there new Haemonculus models?
I looked on the website and the old Haemonculus models are still there amongst the new stuff.

@Luthon

I think a single unit of hellions (10+) is worth making troops and taking if your using the Baron. But mostly I think people will use him for his rules. I just figure if I'm gonna take a character I'm gonna make the most of his special rules or I feel like I'm wasting points. And a 10 man hit-n-run squad w/20 poison shots before charging and a fair amount of medium strength attacks on the charge is pretty nice. They're no deathstar but they are also only a space marine a piece in point costs.

Mmm, Lady Malys, sounds interesting: Pop a Raider in one corner, watch the enemy deploy to rip it to shreds, put it back in reserves, encourage confusion, wait, wait some more, deploy, outflank, kill.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Fast troops are never a problem....

True. Plus they can use the WWP, and it's not like they can't have Hellions, AND the warriors or wyches....


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reds8n wrote: Can we please NOT post links to illegal scans, pictures etc etc of this, or indeed any other copyright protected materials please. Your willingness to selflessly help your fellow gamers by providing such services is commendable, but not something we want all over our nice and public boards. Posts relating to such will be deleted and appropriate action taken against people if needs be.

puma713 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood of Kittens has pictures of Codex Pages on their site (lots of them, including profiles), if you want to see them:

Illegal url goes here/

Do they speak English in what?

Can anyone remember what else the stingclaw did for the hellion champion apart from drag away ICs? Also what does the wych suit do?

I'm really looking forward to finally using the 15 hellions i have sitting here lol.

webway portal — No more Raiders coming out from it. Can be dropped your shooting phase works right away. You can declare deepstrikes, outflanks, whatever and still use the portal when you make your reserve roll. Only Archon and Haemo can take it.

Does this mean that you can activate the portal turn 2... and then use it to bring on reserves in the same turn? Hello Turn 2 Webway Assault!

Scottywan82 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Fast troops are never a problem....

True. Plus they can use the WWP, and it's not like they can't have Hellions, AND the warriors or wyches....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

reds8n wrote: Can we please NOT post links to illegal scans, pictures etc etc of this, or indeed any other copyright protected materials please. Your willingness to selflessly help your fellow gamers by providing such services is commendable, but not something we want all over our nice and public boards. Posts relating to such will be deleted and appropriate action taken against people if needs be.

puma713 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Blood of Kittens has pictures of Codex Pages on their site (lots of them, including profiles), if you want to see them:

Do they speak English in what?

Okay let me rephrase my post above, then.

If you go to Bell of the Lost Souls, you can follow a link to Blood of Kittens, where they have pictures of the Codex up. Better?

Looks like BoLS finally crossed the line and turned traitor.

Anyone else saddened by the fact that they took photos, but you can't actually read anything in 80% of them...

chaos0xomega wrote:Anyone else saddened by the fact that they took photos, but you can't actually read anything in 80% of them...

If you click on them, they zoom. I can read them fine, except for the weapon profiles.

And for whoever was asking about Mandrakes - yes it looks like they're just as bad as rumors are suggesting, which is a shame.

They dont have any upgrades, just a sergeant. Mandrakes are probably the most disappointing unit in the book because they get some of best new models. I dont understand why GW must always have atleast 1 unit with new models suck almost completely. Its like they dont *want* to sell them

*coughs* LoTD *coughs*

I´m disappointed that the DE codex is looking to be encouraging all DE armies to be all vehicle ones.
Its pretty boring to start of against all vehicle army with no or extremely few infantry models being deployed on foot.
Hope I´m wrong.

I don't think it's necessarily the book itself that is making people want to do a vehicle army. It's more to do the with meta of most people's gaming area.

Pyriel- wrote:

They dont have any upgrades, just a sergeant. Mandrakes are probably the most disappointing unit in the book because they get some of best new models. I dont understand why GW must always have atleast 1 unit with new models suck almost completely. Its like they dont *want* to sell them

*coughs* LoTD *coughs*

I´m disappointed that the DE codex is looking to be encouraging all DE armies to be all vehicle ones.
Its pretty boring to start of against all vehicle army with no or extremely few infantry models being deployed on foot.
Hope I´m wrong.

Well it's only natural since that is what 5th is all about.


I'm not seeing where people think WWP is a good item, or a good tactic. I mean from what everyone has been describing it's actually worse than it was before. You are all crazy I tell you CRAZY!

I think the WWP is better for wyches then raiders. I am too afrade of the raider blowing up and killing 70% of the wyches inside (because of their t3 and 6+ sv).

It's hard to say what will be the better builds until people have time to do some serious playtesting. The spammed raider list looks like it was just off the top with not much thought put into it other than to spam raiders. I'm sure there are going to be some great lists. This is a Phil Kelly codex after all.

So they die when they come out of the WWP ok. Raiders have gotten some new tools to stay alive. Another thing to consider if WWP still works like this, if the bearer dies than you can't bring in the rest of your army.

You dont declare that units are using the webway anymore.. So if the guy dies no big deal, you move on from the board edge (well it is a big deal since that sill prob loses you the game!)

It actually allows you to say youre deep striking a unit then decide instead to move it through the webway

My main issue with it is that you basically have to drop it turn 1 or you risk your units arriving on the board edge before you can drop it on turn 2

Luthon1234 wrote:So they die when they come out of the WWP ok. Raiders have gotten some new tools to stay alive. Another thing to consider if WWP still works like this, if the bearer dies than you can't bring in the rest of your army.

well not really, one las cannon shot could kill 70% of your wyches if their in a raider, where as that would only kill 1 wych if its on foot. Also you can go direactly from the WWP into assault.

WWP is just a lot more gimmicky I think now.. Best way imo to use it is to keep max of 250 pts in reserve..

If you start 12" in, move 12", disembark 2" then deploy the WWP your units will move on 6", fleet d6" then charge 6" (wyches)

That gives your opponent enough of a deployment area to just wait and kill them all with bolters or lasguns or virtually ANYTHING that goes boom

I think the WWP portal armies are gone, but its good to use for 1-2 units

Kirasu wrote:WWP is just a lot more gimmicky I think now.. Best way imo to use it is to keep max of 250 pts in reserve..

If you start 12" in, move 12", disembark 2" then deploy the WWP your units will move on 6", fleet d6" then charge 6" (wyches)

That gives your opponent enough of a deployment area to just wait and kill them all with bolters or lasguns or virtually ANYTHING that goes boom

I think the WWP portal armies are gone, but its good to use for 1-2 units

Now I agree with this but still the points cost of WWP has yet to been shown (that I know of), and if its 50pts like it was (I'm hoping not) then even that might not be worth it.

I think someone posted the WWP is 35 pts.

35pts for the WWP. And it's pretty awesome for deploying Talo's deep in enemy territory. I don't see the use in it much other than that though. My army will definitely be meched up but I'm thinking of heavily using Wracks and Wyches as they compliment each other with who they are designed to fight. Biggest threat to this army is thing like Nob Bikers but thankfully those have become more and more rare in my area. Though there is one fellow who uses them who just hasn't run into enough armies that make them cry to drop them yet.

Kirasu wrote:WWP is just a lot more gimmicky I think now.. Best way imo to use it is to keep max of 250 pts in reserve..

If you start 12" in, move 12", disembark 2" then deploy the WWP your units will move on 6", fleet d6" then charge 6" (wyches)

That gives your opponent enough of a deployment area to just wait and kill them all with bolters or lasguns or virtually ANYTHING that goes boom

I think the WWP portal armies are gone, but its good to use for 1-2 units

According to Blood of Kittens, even if you declare a reserve unit deepstriking, outflanking or otherwise, it can use the WWP if you like. That gives it a little more versatility and a bit of a "surprise!" if your WWP carrier doesn't die and gets the chance to drop it.

Kirasu wrote:WWP is just a lot more gimmicky I think now.. Best way imo to use it is to keep max of 250 pts in reserve..

If you start 12" in, move 12", disembark 2" then deploy the WWP your units will move on 6", fleet d6" then charge 6" (wyches)

That gives your opponent enough of a deployment area to just wait and kill them all with bolters or lasguns or virtually ANYTHING that goes boom

I think the WWP portal armies are gone, but its good to use for 1-2 units

move the raider you disembarked from in front of the wyches to block los

Skimmer on a flight stick won't generally block LOS to foot units.

i havent seen the new model yet but i bet you would get a cover save at the very least

It will all depend on the angle of the shooters to the Wyches.

Also, keep in mind you can move the raider all the way up to the gun line your trying to block, cutting off the angle at the source and as a bonus if it blows up it blows up on them not your wyches.

Kirasu wrote:You dont declare that units are using the webway anymore.. So if the guy dies no big deal, you move on from the board edge (well it is a big deal since that sill prob loses you the game!)

It actually allows you to say youre deep striking a unit then decide instead to move it through the webway

My main issue with it is that you basically have to drop it turn 1 or you risk your units arriving on the board edge before you can drop it on turn 2

Except that it apparently is dropped before you roll for reserves, and has specific rules allowing it to be used the turn its dropped...

If thats the way it works, and I didn't misunderstand the source, then the tactic would be to get an archon in a raider, turboboost 24+2d6" on turn 1. Turn 2 activation and go.

webway portal — No more Raiders coming out from it. Can be dropped your shooting phase works right away. You can declare deepstrikes, outflanks, whatever and still use the portal when you make your reserve roll. Only Archon and Haemo can take it.

I think that means its ready to use for your next reserve roll, not that you can some how bring reserves on during the shooting phase.

Hmm, thats a good point. Damn. Seems like an odd phrase to put in there though all things considered...

I've rarely had trouble getting my wyches in HtH with a squad. A Raider of Warriors to block LOS to my Raider of Wyches following close behind. Or even two Raiders to block LoS to them if there are lots of flanking fire.

As for people complaining about DE using lots of vehicles, 2 things:

1) It's DE.
2) It's 5th ed.

DE are the original mech army, at least IMO. And yes, Raiders crash and burn, if you can't stand that fact you will be in for a world of hurt trying to play DE right off the bat. No self respcting Archon/Archite will care if a Raider of Warriors goes down in flames, or two or more. In fact, it helps me get in character as I'm laughing quite maniacally when it happens.

I kinda wish that either the Raiders were cheaper or they included some of those upgrades as standard... Its going to be supremely tempting to take 100pt raiders that are louded to the gills with the necessary survivability upgrades plus everything else.

I keep seeing the wychsuit mentioned in the wargear items, but no description of it. Can anyone confirm for me what it does?

The Crippler wrote:I keep seeing the wychsuit mentioned in the wargear items, but no description of it. Can anyone confirm for me what it does?

I think it is just the name for the armour wyches wear now (akin to how Marines have a Power Armour wargear instead of a super magical 3+ armour save skin).

Gwar! is right, it is just a special name for a 6+ save.

When you purchase a unit of 3 Haemonculi do they operate independently or as 1 unit? Do each Haemonculus get a free pain token?

They are each seperate IC's and they each come with 1 pain token.

Gwar! wrote:

The Crippler wrote:I keep seeing the wychsuit mentioned in the wargear items, but no description of it. Can anyone confirm for me what it does?

I think it is just the name for the armour wyches wear now (akin to how Marines have a Power Armour wargear instead of a super magical 3+ armour save skin).

I was hoping there was something else to it. 6+ saves don't deserve their own wargear name. For example, see Codex Orks.

nope, its a trend GW has been doing for a while now. It's just like in the Nids dex, all the different saves have a different name, even for gants.

Just Dave wrote:Well at the very least they (Mandrakes) could work well for tying up enemy units whilst the raiders close or whatever.

Fancy way of calling them 'cannon fodder', which should never be the function of an Elite unit. "I'm gonna tie up the enemy with my Elites so my Troops can get in and kill stuff!" Sounds backward to me.

Or there could be a lot more to them than it seems. I personally believe something could be said for their manoeuvrability and stealth...

I really want to believe that, but it appears that Mandrakes use maneuverability and stealth to rush to their deaths.
They are slightly better than they used to be, but that tiny improvement is nullified by the backdrop of 5th edition. Their horribleness was merely scaled up with the rest of the game, and they remain as bad as ever. It makes me sick.

Archonate wrote:

Just Dave wrote:Well at the very least they (Mandrakes) could work well for tying up enemy units whilst the raiders close or whatever.

Fancy way of calling them 'cannon fodder', which should never be the function of an Elite unit. "I'm gonna tie up the enemy with my Elites so my Troops can get in and kill stuff!" Sounds backward to me.

Or there could be a lot more to them than it seems. I personally believe something could be said for their manoeuvrability and stealth...

I really want to believe that, but it appears that Mandrakes use maneuverability and stealth to rush to their deaths.
They are slightly better than they used to be, but that tiny improvement is nullified by the backdrop of 5th edition. Their horribleness was merely scaled up with the rest of the game, and they remain as bad as ever. It makes me sick.

Looking at the codex entry - there really is nothing else to them, which is disappointing. The models are fantastic. (Maybe the Decapitator helps out their entry?)

puma713 wrote:(Maybe the Decapitator helps out their entry?)

Well he was a total loner in the last Codex. Couldn't join squads and had no sway over anything. But yeah, my only hope is that he now makes Mandrakes viable somehow.

puma713 wrote:Looking at the codex entry - there really is nothing else to them, which is disappointing. The models are fantastic. (Maybe the Decapitator helps out their entry?)

Nope, he's an HQ, totally separate and he's like a DE lictor.

They just need rending. Or power weapons. Or hell, even poison.

Scottywan82 wrote:They just need rending. Or power weapons. Or hell, even poison.

Exactly! They have no bite. No sharp edge whatsoever! Any one of the above rules would make them worth using, and they're all justifiable! Such a needless waste of what could have been an awesome unit...

If Haemonculi are IC's and the whole sharing the pain rule means that both the character and the unit he is with get receive pain tokens together which they pool, would that make his unit start with FNP and FC?

If 1 Haemonculus joined a unit of Wyches, they would have 1 pain token together. If the Haemonculus left the unit you would have to split the tokens as evenly as possible, so one of the units would have 0 the other would have 1. If they, together, kill a whole unit the Haemonculus would get a token and the Wyches would get a token making 3. This is how I understand it. Right or Wrong?

Sigmatron wrote:If 1 Haemonculus joined a unit of Wyches, they would have 1 pain token together. If the Haemonculus left the unit you would have to split the tokens as evenly as possible, so one of the units would have 0 the other would have 1. If they, together, kill a whole unit the Haemonculus would get a token and the Wyches would get a token making 3. This is how I understand it. Right or Wrong?

Wrong. While the Haemonculus is a part of the Wyches, he is a -part of the unit. If the unit, as 1, kills another unit, the unit gets a token. That would give the entire unit 2. If the Haemonculus then leaves, he leaves with 1 and the unit keeps 1. If the unit has 3, then you have to choose who gets the extra.

Edit: While the Haemonculus is with a unit, he ceases to be an IC until CC attacks are resolved or until he leaves. This is the reasoning behind it.

Was in at my local GW and was having a flick through the codex and OMG!

Grotesques are soo cheap for what they do, not sure what there special rules do or there extra wargear but im defo for converting some Ogre kingdom bulls!


Also just to say thanks to everyone for the information from here, been a big help

Or you could wait for the tasty new grotesque models to come out

chaos0xomega wrote:I kinda wish that either the Raiders were cheaper or they included some of those upgrades as standard... Its going to be supremely tempting to take 100pt raiders that are louded to the gills with the necessary survivability upgrades plus everything else.

Don't do it. These things are paper thin. Anything more than naked or maybe one upgrade risks wasting too many points.

Anyone who has seen the codex know if the Archon has Power through Pain?

I wonder if mass infantry rush 3x 20 unit of warriors with a haemonclus to give fnp... that's 60 fnp dudes with assorted goodies...

What I'm wondering is which IC's have Power Through Pain? I've noticed that none of the rumors have mentioned that Archons, Lelith, Vect, etc. have Power Through Pain. Can they benefit from tokens?

You'd think, "Of course, if the troops can, then the HQ's certainly can!" But, we haven't heard anything to that effect yet. Just wondering if anyone remembered from looking at the codex.

Edit: Ninja'd by Sigmatron.

reds8n wrote:
Can we please NOT post links to illegal scans, pictures etc etc of this, or indeed any other copyright protected materials please. Your willingness to selflessly help your fellow gamers by providing such services is commendable, but not something we want all over our nice and public boards. Posts relating to such will be deleted and appropriate action taken against people if needs be.

Fair - Not as bad as whineseer - even **asking** if such things have been leaked on the internet gets you a warning and a whole 50+ page thread lock. Go nazi whineseer mods! Way to stifle a thread. Yay for fair handed dakka mods :-)

Phototoxin wrote:

reds8n wrote:
Can we please NOT post links to illegal scans, pictures etc etc of this, or indeed any other copyright protected materials please. Your willingness to selflessly help your fellow gamers by providing such services is commendable, but not something we want all over our nice and public boards. Posts relating to such will be deleted and appropriate action taken against people if needs be.

Fair - Not as bad as whineseer - even **asking** if such things have been leaked on the internet gets you a warning and a whole 50+ page thread lock. Go nazi whineseer mods! Way to stifle a thread. Yay for fair handed dakka mods :-)

We'll they've already reached their terrible posting quota and locked any interesting threads, so I wouldn't bother going over there for Dark Eldar info.

Well this is it... LO is dead... whineseer is full of dark eldar basically! Dakka are more like the orcs... everyones equal- some are just bigger than others

DAKKA! DAKKA! DAKKA!

Anyway : on topic... how do we thing the price of raiders... (2x a rhino) will fare on their use?

They seem really, really strong. Gonna be a hard army to beat. I wish orkz got all these cool special rules >_> If Dark Eldar get stronger for clearing squads, orkz should too!

Phototoxin wrote:Anyway : on topic... how do we thing the price of raiders... (2x a rhino) will fare on their use?

I doubt the point cost will affect much, honestly. Previously, they were 55 points and if you wanted Nightshields they were 70. A Raider with Nightshields or Flicker Field is... 70. Both for 80 and you probably don't need both on every raider. I pre-ordered a bunch and will probably convert a couple Venoms out of Eldar vypers just for the option on MSU units. I see kitted out Raiders for my wyches and incubi, Venoms or cheap Raiders on my Warrior units depending on whether I need the Dark Lance/Disintegrator or would rather have the cheap transport.

The Crippler wrote:I keep seeing the wychsuit mentioned in the wargear items, but no description of it. Can anyone confirm for me what it does?

It just covers the nipples and any 'personal bits'. I think these will soon become wargear for Sanguinary Guard...

Haven't read the last 23 pages, so apologies if/when I repeat some stuff.

I'm a DE player of some veterancy, and I spent the best of an hour earlier going through and analysing the new codex, and was struck by several things. I'll summarise my thoughts in the following:-

Weaponry

-Splinter cannons are assault 4/heavy 6. So better.

-The disentegrator has been changed into the disentegrator cannon. It's now a 36" range Strength 5 AP 3 Heavy 3 gun. Basically a mix of the two already existing modes into one.

-The Blaster has had it's range extended to 18"

-One of the aircraft has access to something called a Void Lance, which is identical to a Dark Lance, except it's Strength 9.

-There's been an addition of a Heat Lance, which is Strength 6 Melta Lance with a short range that's an assault weapon. Either 18" or 24", I forget.

-Vehicles can take a new bit of wargear(shimmer shields?) that grants a 5+ invulnerable save. Venom has automatically, raider and ravager get for 10 points.

-Night shield intact, and same point cost.

HQ

Vect weighs in at 240 points without his dais as a foot model with special rules. The dais is 200 points more, and he needs to have a full squad of 9 other models to put in it. In other words, taking him will eat up a HUGE chunk of points.

-The shadow field is intact as per usual, at 5 points more than in the old codex.

-Decapitator is still there, and can be placed anywhere on the table, but can't assault that turn. In other words, he's like a souped up sly Marbo, but at about 140 points, a bit of a points sink.

-Lelith Hesperax is insane, and has some amazing special rules to get more attacks. Something to do with adding a number of attacks equal to an opponents weapon skill.

Elite

-There are, as already mentioned newer elite versions of the wyches and warriors. The statlines are identical, except for the addition of +1 attack.

-The new elite warriors can have up to 4 of the newer assault weapons per squad, and the minimums quad size is 3. So expect squads of 5 with 4 blasters in the new Venoms. The elite warriors were 13 points apiece.

-The new Grotesques look nice at first with wounds, toughness, attacks, and strength. They alos get a pain token when placed on the field, so feel no pain as well. However, like the new big monster for the beastmasters, they suffer from Ogryn syndrome. At 35 points apiece, it's debatable as to whether they could stand up to the likes of the hammernators they almost cost as much as.

-Wracks are 10 points, and being toughness 3, won't last long even with feel no pain. Still a dubious unit.

-Incubi are now 22 points and can take either transport, making them quite feasible.

-Mandrakes have no power weapons. They basically get stealth, move through cover, and infiltrate, along with their shooting attack after killing something. A 5+ Invulnerable save too. But at 15 points, at toughness 3, probably a waste of points.

Troops

-Warriors are now 9 points apiece. The options for carrying heavy weapons such as Dark Lances has been limited to one per ten warriors in the squad. This effectively kills the Sniper Squad stone dead.

-Wyches have had the barrier lowered to 10 points apiece, meaning they're now far cheaper to field en masse.

[Fast Attack[b/]

-Scourges have a 4+ save, and a greater array of weaponry, but weigh in pricey at 22 points. Will work best as anti-infantry, in order to allow them to maximise their new standard Heavy 3 gun. So splinter cannons would be the best loadout.

-Hellions still unimpressive.


Heavy Support

-Ravagers have been dropped to 105 points apiece, and disintegrator cannons can be swapped in free of points cost.

-The Cronos basically has 2 attacks instead of the Talos's D6, and is strength 5 instead of 7. In exchange though, it has an AP3 flamer weapon, and if it kills a model, it can give a pain counter to any unit within 12". It can also upgrade to get a ranged weapon that does the same thing. It weighs in at 80 points to the Talos's 100.

-The new fighter craft is damn good points value looking at the weapons loadout. Possibly the most Competitive new unit. Get's two dark lances, 4 missiles, and a splinter cannon.

In other words, apart from the new aircraft, a lot of the new units aren't actually very good points wise. I'd rank The Venom has potential, and the Cronos has the possibility of good synergy. The new warrior elites will basically be the equivalent of guard vets, dropping with with large numbers of heavy weapons. Scourges are too pricey to be adequately competitive I think, although depending on the army, they could just about be feasible.

Mandrakes are a waste of points, and grotesques suffer ogryn syndrome. There's a lot of effects in the HQ choices as noted earlier, from redeploying units, to taking hellions as troops, but these often cost large amounts of points. I'd need to play a few games to test their actual worth before proclaiming them of use or note.

The regular warrior squads are now more highly priced, and can't take as many heavy weapons, so I have a feeling they'll be supplanted by the now far more reasonably priced wyches. They simply don't have the reasonably price, or the killpower any more, thus rendering them far less effective.


That's my evaluation after a brief 45 mins or so with the codex.

A fair bit of fluff has changed, especially with regard to Vect and the foundation of the DE. Reads well though.

Kroothawk wrote:Added most of todays info in the first page summary (bright red this time), but it is already too much as you can see.
Guess it is about time to stop updating it.

thanks soo much to you and all the others for the great info - loved the DE since day one and greatly enjoy playing them till now - looks like this will continue

Anyone got any more info on Vechts ex Lady Malys - I am intrigued by her - hope she gets a model to match Lelith. Is she Archon stats and coolness -or something else?

Glad Shadowfields are still in - great fun - even when they fail that one save...............

well certinaly this has brightened up my year

Ketara wrote:

A fair bit of fluff has changed, especially with regard to Vect and the foundation of the DE. Reads well though.

Fluff and DE always cracks me up.. I sure hope a fair bit of fluff has changed considering the old codex had like half a paragraph of fluff

Ketara wrote:A fair bit of fluff has changed, especially with regard to Vect and the foundation of the DE. Reads well though.

anything you can remember specifically / want to share

fluff in the old codex - glancing through about 7-8 pages out of 50 odd plus some sidebars

@Ketara

Couple things you had wrong there:

-Wracks are S3 T4
-The new scourge weapon is Assault 3

Otherwise I'd agree with some of the things you said. I think Warriors are almost only going to be seen as Elites. The basic ones have to compete w/Wyches, Wracks, and Hellions (Depending on your HQ's) where they just come up short.

looks like mandrakes are the Dark Eldar's patented dud unit. Everyone codex comes with at least one.

Originally in the fluff, Vect was the one who set up Commoragh by fleeing into the webway during the fall. Now it's changed.

Basically, some of the original eldar princes got a bit paranoid prior to the fall, and moved out to colonise the webway as their own private fiefdoms. So they set up a lot of cities. Commorragh was simply the greatest of these. Commoragh itself is described as being a mountain next to a molehill in comparison to an Imperial Hive City.

Basically Vect as a single lowly prince crippled and towed into commoragh a Salamander battle barge. The salamanders set off a signal, allowing more salamanders to invade commorragh and aid them. You had up to 500 marines ending up fighting in there against the whole dark city, resulting in hesperax taking to the field. Loads of DE died, and the resulting chaos allowed Vect to take power through cunning.

His wife basically manipulated a ork Waargh into attacking and looting an imperial forgeworld, trashing the place, and stealing a newly discovered STC. She then killed the orks, and nicked the stc, the result being Vect was damn impressed.


That's the main character fluff.

Hulksmash wrote:@Ketara

Couple things you had wrong there:

-Wracks are S3 T4
-The new scourge weapon is Assault 3

Otherwise I'd agree with some of the things you said. I think Warriors are almost only going to be seen as Elites. The basic ones have to compete w/Wyches, Wracks, and Hellions (Depending on your HQ's) where they just come up short.

I must have missread that on Wracks, and that was a mistype on the scourges. You're right, they are indeed assault 3.

Nightshields are also cheaper at 10 pts instead of 15. and the Ravagers are the same price at 105. Does anyone know if Archon's get Power Through Pain?

When I said dropped, I meant the disentegrators are free instead of having to pay 5 points apiece. For me, that's a drop of 15 points, as I never fielded them with Dark Lances.

Cheaper Ravagers are good... but perhaps the new HS means that other things might be taken over them although I am planning to get 2.

Ketara wrote:Originally in the fluff, Vect was the one who set up Commoragh by fleeing into the webway during the fall. Now it's changed. His wife basically manipulated a ork Waargh into attacking and looting an imperial forgeworld, trashing the place, and stealing a newly discovered STC. She then killed the orks, and nicked the stc, the result being Vect was damn impressed.

thanks for that - sounds like fun

re Vecht where did the bit about him setting up Commoragh come in - not in the Codex - is it in the novel with Hesperex in? Must have missed it

It was in a piece of fluff in an old White Dwarf, where Vect regales the story of the start of the Dark Eldar.

Anybody who's got access to the codex, could you answer me 2 things?
Do any of the Haemoculous variants have fleet?
and
Who all can buy a webway portal?

This is a list a friend came up with after reading the codex for 10 mins, hopefully this sort of stuff doesnt come popular otherwise its going to be razorspam all over again.

Vect
haemonculi with liquifier
haemonculi with liquifer
3 trueborn with 2 cannons, venom with 2 cannons, nightshield
3 trueborn with 2 cannons, venom with 2 cannons, nightshield
3 trueborn with 2 cannons, venom with 2 cannons, nightshield
7 wracks, liquifer, champ with venom blade, raider with nightshield, sails
8 wracks, liquifer, champ with venom blade, raider with nightshield, sails
5 warriors, blaster, raider with nightshield
5 warriors, blaster, raider with nightshield
5 warriors, blaster, raider with nightshield
5 warriors, blaster, raider with nightshield
5 scourges, 2 cannons
5 scourges, 2 cannons
5 scourges, 2 cannons
Ravager, 3 lances, nightshield
Ravager, 3 lances, nightshield
Ravager, 3 lances, nightshield

Not sure if It has enough anti tank, but still 13 lances, 4 blasters, 18 splinter cannons and a bit of combat.

Sigmatron wrote:Does anyone know if Archon's get Power Through Pain?

Everyone has it.

And Archons and Haemonculus can take WWP

Hulksmash wrote:@Ketara

Couple things you had wrong there:

-Wracks are S3 T4
-The new scourge weapon is Assault 3

Otherwise I'd agree with some of the things you said. I think Warriors are almost only going to be seen as Elites. The basic ones have to compete w/Wyches, Wracks, and Hellions (Depending on your HQ's) where they just come up short.

I'm going to have to disagree. They are a better shooting unit than wyches, and can score.

I don't think most people will take Wracks and Hellions as troops, considering the model costs and theme. I think there are plenty of people who share my opinion, and would view elite warriors as a waste of an Incubi slot.

Hulksmash wrote:@Ketara

Couple things you had wrong there:

-Wracks are S3 T4
-The new scourge weapon is Assault 3

Otherwise I'd agree with some of the things you said. I think Warriors are almost only going to be seen as Elites. The basic ones have to compete w/Wyches, Wracks, and Hellions (Depending on your HQ's) where they just come up short.

Man can you sell me on the elite warriors because I dunno they just seem like crap. I know they can take more special weapons and heavy weapons for fewer guys but they don't look good at all.

I'm really disappointed in how much vect costs, 240pts for just him then 200 more for his dais and then you have to buy him a court that's so many points tied up into one character!

You don't have to buy him the Dais and I doubt many people will field him on it. All his main advantages such the 4+ to seize don't require you to to take it (but are probably worth the 240pts you spend for him).

The Elite Warriors are definitely going to see use, probably going to be more common than the Troop Warriors actually (who have to compete with Wyches and all the slot changing ones). Because they are 3-10 you can load up on special or heavy weapons in a relatively small/cheap unit and park them in a vehicle to pump out heaps of fire in (relative) safety.

The codex appears to be very well balanced actually, there is nothing stopping you running assault units for troops (Wyches) and shooting units for elites (Trueborn Warriors) or doing the opposite and running shooting troops and assaulty Elites (or just overload on one or the other I guess). Both seem to be equally viable and it could just come down to personal preference, which imo is a perfect example of good codex design.

I like the elite warriors for many reasons:

a) Can take 2 Heavies and 4 Specials without a minimum size

b) Small unit size if you want it

c) Can all be armed with 3 shot-poison weapons

d) Don't totally suck in combat after gunning at least a single unit down.

Just some thoughts.

Well, my personal DE list previously only had 1 Elites choice, Wyches obviously. I can now see that changing dramatically with what are the new codex choices for Elites. I can field 2 full squads of Incubi with the models I have currently. Anyone who's fielded them, know their worth. In HtH, I've never had my Incubi lose. Now getting them into HtH, is another issue

I could see fielding a small group of Elite warriors kitted out w/ anti armor weapons. Keeping them in cover out of Los til they're needed then popping out to wreck some havoc.

If there's very little change in Points costs, I'll likely have 3 Raider squads of Warriors each 10 man and 3 Raider squads of Wyches each 10 man. Sorry, it's absolute suicide IMO to field less than a full compliment of troops aboard a Raider.

Scourges and Hellions both seem viable options, and the new Heavy choices will change things up abit. Though I want to see how the 'flyer' rules work for them first. Hmmm, I'm going to have to look at kit bashing that Void Bomber from a vyper and an eldar Grav tank....

Trueborn with carbines in a venom with cannons is going to be quite the cheap little gun boat.

Did the trueborn get pistol+ccw in addition to the carbines? Or was the carbine upgrade separate?

I'm surprized no one mentioned this: Warriors can get Assault and Defencive grenades for 20 pts per Unit. This will deffenately come in handy alot!

After spending several hours reading the advanced copy i have a few ideas on things for this dex.

1. wyches have been crucified. They suck period. people need to get off the fact they WERE close combat monsters they are not that way anymore. with wych weapons in the previous dex they would hit most every unit on 3's with some drug help they would still need 5's and 6's to wound most things but with the 3's to hit they would wound a bit more. Now they hit on 4's barring a lucky combat drug and still need 5's and 6's to hit. they are of course 2 points cheaper then before but they also lost blasters so that is a fair exchange for losing the ability to hit and the ability to kill tanks or something really nasty? all for 2 points? i sure dont think so
2. the wych weapons are now only available to 2 models in 10 and they only affect what that model does. in this age of no one model is safe especially with a 6+ armor save for 10 points each these wych weapons are a joke.
3. their stats remained exactly the same but they have no punch now. And forget the pain token stuff if you cant kill a unit because you cant wound them how do you get pain tokens? you dont.

4. Raiders: 60 points base not a big deal 5 points different add in a shock prow all DE players will use shockprows and add 10 points for flickershields again a must for any DE player and now its a 75 point raider and still armor 10

you can add other things for raiders but why? they wont be around long enough to matter

5. Ravagers with 3 dark lances moving 12" and firing everything.. i can live with that if you wont give me 12 armor as a heavy support the least you can do is let me shoot my guns so i am grateful for that much. add night shield and a flicker shield and its a good day

6. kabalite warriors 1 blaster 1 dark lance same points bit of a nerf but its not terrible

7. kabalite elites 4 blasters and 2 dark lances in a raider .. ok ill try it

8. Reavers ( probably the best upgrade in the dex) turbo boosting 36" mono blades killing as they fly by 3 heat lances for 10 bikes 18" range melta lance str6 ap1 not terrible

9: helions the fact they dont ignore terrain makes them very iffy. add in the baron sonathryx sp? and they become troops skilled rider stealth and the stunclaw which in the right situation is game changing...could this be the end of the eldrad seer counsel nonsense? remove eldrad from close combat pull him 3d6" away and then lay him out next turn

10 Vect. hes a monster with a unit or by himself hes a monster 4+ sieze roles? yes please

11. incubi why ? too many points not enough umph

12. Harlequins are you serious? wyches in the old dex would wipe the floor with them who wants them? No self respecting DE player will field quins. a money grab by GW pure and simple

13. Jabba raiders are you kidding me? and the sail has to be bought extra so why have it ? pass ill use my old models everytime

the bikes and helions are cool as all get out but overall this is no longer the im going to charge you and beat you in close combat army this is im going to move fast and blast you to bits army my new 1850 list has 17 Dark Lances and 10 blasters and 3 heat lances and some blaster pistols i dont care what army you play 17 dark lances will ruin you and ill be ruined as well when i get shot out of the sky with my aluminum armada

Some of the sc are really cool but dont make up for the lack of surviveability that the DE needed.

Do not forget close combat in 5th isnt anyways near as good as 4th you cant consolidate so be real proud of that pain token you get on round 2 cus your dead next turn shot and getting no saves with a 6+ now with FNP ill come back with 4's but do the math.. sad day for the DE

I've been lurking the interwebs.. and this codex just seems really well thought and balanced bar a few eggs (Mandrakes).

Surprised the above poster didnt mention that in the rant.

Dark Eldar were never meant to be surviveable. A glass hammer is hardly that if it never breaks. Then it'd just be a hammer.
Aka Marines.

If Crons/other xenos get to tyranid tier kinda like how it seems DE are, we're gonna have a problem

Nobody buy DE now guys, Rle68 has decided they're terrible.

Good Codex. The DE are now something to be feared. The Warriors with their 4+ poison weapons. The Wyches, I thought had poison weapons, but even if they don't, they have alot of attacks compared to before. The Hydra gloves are a great force multiplier
The Wracks, i think will work, but the best thing about them is their masters, the Haemonoculi. They have some very nasty wargear that can killl anyone, and even large squads.

This army, I think will be the "Glass Hammer". So many things can do so much damage. Thats where they can earn the pain points. Once they pick up FNP, FC and Fearless, then they can hang with the best of them.

Not sure why the mandrakes have to earn one to get Bale Blast, they are beautiful models to be sure. Guess I''ll have to run them a bit to see how they work out.

plastictrees wrote:Nobody buy DE now guys, Rle68 has decided they're terrible.

maybe you should go back to class and learn to read i said wyches were terrible i never said the whole army was thanks for trying now go to your room and dont come out till your at least 30

Rle68 wrote:

plastictrees wrote:Nobody buy DE now guys, Rle68 has decided they're terrible.

maybe you should go back to class and learn to read i said wyches were terrible i never said the whole army was thanks for trying now go to your room and dont come out till your at least 30

It's rather difficult to read posts that aren't written properly. Taking some time to use proper punctuation and spelling would greatly help you in this respect.

Xca|iber wrote:

Rle68 wrote:

plastictrees wrote:Nobody buy DE now guys, Rle68 has decided they're terrible.

maybe you should go back to class and learn to read i said wyches were terrible i never said the whole army was thanks for trying now go to your room and dont come out till your at least 30

It's rather difficult to read posts that aren't written properly. Taking some time to use proper punctuation and spelling would greatly help you in this respect.

if it was one long paragraph id see your point its broken up and quite easily readable. his post was entirely childish and added no value to this discussion and last time i checked my spell check left everything alone except for non words

Well this is reminding me of the Tyranid and IG releases.
The first rumors give everyone the impression that the army is going to be amazing.
But then the facts begin to trickle in and slowly the army begins to look less and less remarkable as the rules and units we had hopes for are twisted in frustrating and idiotic ways.
(SW and BA releases were exempt from this for obvious reasons.)

The DE are fine. The second guessers, such as the long post a few posts earlier, don't even have the facts straight, yet they feel the need to condemn them. The only problem is that some thought they would be broken, no-brainer good and they aren't. They're just a solid 'dex with several good play list options and plenty of power.

Wow... Mandrakes suck.

Such pretty models... but they're not plastic, so, y'know.

Wyches are just fine. You just need to take them in units of 10. A unit of 10 w/out +1 St, FC, or WS5 but with a succubus with an agoniser. 27 attacks yields only 1.5 dead marines. The Succubus adds another dead marine. 7 Marines strike back and do a whopping...1 wound. The sergeant kill another .5 wyches (less than that but we'll round up). So wyches win combat. And that's with them costing 2/3's the amount of the squad their engaged with and not counting any combat drug result or shooting before charging. Yep, wyches suck....

Their role has changed. Honestly I wouldn't use them to kill marine squads. I'll let Wracks do that. Wyches are for tying up those nasty PW/TH heavy units. Even a termi squad (assuming no one dies) is only gonna kill 2 of them. And I think that the "dark lance spam" build is actually going to be one of the frailer, less competitive lists out there. I'd personally start experimenting with other units and fast.

Your opinions don't match mine at all Rle68 which is fine. But you read your statements like they are fact when they are opinion (and flawed opinion at that).

@Skarboy

Here, Here!

This army is what it was before, a finesse army.

The better players will take it and run with it, and hurt alot of feelings on the table.

The newbies will think they are getting murdered and complain it isn't strong enough.

The vets will caper and prance with childish glee as they dismante their enemies forces.

I haven't given up on the mandrakes yet. I have alot of the old really worthless ones. Didn't want to melt them down for bullets, so they have a new lease on life.

I actually love Wyches now sure there not as good but they get a butt load of attacks and once they get pain tokens they are 1000000x better. I can't wait for Talos models because I will be field 3 of the shooting ones to hand out tokens to my Wyches. I think one thing you could do is upgrade wyches to -1 CC attacks for the opponent get them 1 pain token load them up on attacks and have an Archon toeing them around havin him do all the hard work if needed. Wyches become rly survivable with that 4+/4+ in CC. While they aren't the juggarnaught of before there still good.

I think small units of Incubi will take there place because of all the power weapon attacks they will crush squads in CC specially marines get those pain tokens stacking and they get better and better I will use them alot like Death company 5 man squads all PWs to crush MEQs.

I think harlequins do have a nice place in this army too the thing they were missing in Eldar was Assault vehicals DE gives them that chance I think once people experiment we will see them alot. for 148 points you get 6 harlequins one being a troup master all will kisses that's 25 rending furious charge attacks.

Next Veteren Warriors is what I'm calling them lol. 4 Blasters in a venom is so insanely sick that just shreads ork mobs to pieces and the ability 2 take 2 dark lances in a small squad will be invaluable in some cases where youd rather have troop wyches.

Hellions are a unit I see becoming awsome havin Combat drugs and neat abilites will make large squads effective dont expect to see a ton of these but they will make appearences and be pretty cool

Reavers Oh reaves how I <3 you. they dont look good with the 5+ but gettin them pain tokens for feel no pain then the ability to turbo 36 is awsome try buying a warp portal or w/e its called and hold them in reserve then dont pop it till like turn 4 or 5 and have them turbo out to somewhere your opponent thought he was safe. Also Melta lance FTW having small tank hunting squads of these will be so cool.

Hulksmash wrote:Wyches are just fine. You just need to take them in units of 10. A unit of 10 w/out +1 St, FC, or WS5 but with a succubus with an agoniser. 27 attacks yields only 1.5 dead marines. The Succubus adds another dead marine. 7 Marines strike back and do a whopping...1 wound. The sergeant kill another .5 wyches (less than that but we'll round up). So wyches win combat. And that's with them costing 2/3's the amount of the squad their engaged with and not counting any combat drug result or shooting before charging. Yep, wyches suck....

Their role has changed. Honestly I wouldn't use them to kill marine squads. I'll let Wracks do that. Wyches are for tying up those nasty PW/TH heavy units. Even a termi squad (assuming no one dies) is only gonna kill 2 of them. And I think that the "dark lance spam" build is actually going to be one of the frailer, less competitive lists out there. I'd personally start experimenting with other units and fast.

Your opinions don't match mine at all Rle68 which is fine. But you read your statements like they are fact when they are opinion (and flawed opinion at that).

@Skarboy

Here, Here!

sorry my comments are based off of new dex stats and your 7 marines doing only 1 wound to a wych squad is disengenious at best needing only 3's to wound the wyches they will do more then a single wound and 4+ isnt automatic

my post showed several good things i see but wyches are no longer one of them the numbers dont lie

yes opinions vary and we can leave it at that

@Rle68. Your post is broken up but still very hard to read due to the lack of punctuation. One of your final paragraphs about bikes and Hellions is basically impossible to read. You seem to be suggesting that Dark Lance spam is going be a new and powerful build when it was the primary build with the old dex. I doubt its going to be that effective (or at least any more effective than it already was), you still get blasted off the board by Guard and other shooting armies which absorb a turn of fire and still kill half your vehicles in the return volley and you can't really deal with Devastator type units (or infantry in general, a horde doesn't care about Dark Lances and the template mode of the Disintegrator is gone).

Wyches are troops and troops are not supposed to be close combat gods no matter what the army is. They will deal with most units in combat unless its a specialised assault unit, but Troop Assault units should not be beating Elite/HQ Assault units so thats fair enough. As long as you don't do something silly like try and take on an IG blob squad with them you should be able to get a Pain Point in most games, they should be able to take out a Marine combat squad or a 10 man Guard unit in combat. From what I can tell you just have to use them to finish off a unit to get the Pain Point, so softening a squad up with shooting is obviously going to be a good plan. You are also missing the fact that there are ways to get them a Pain Point without killing anything, one of the Drugs Rolls gives you one and some character come with Pain Points.

The Raider is still great, a 5 point increase isn't that much. They are still one of the few transports in the game to come with a decent shooting weapon and provides a great assault platform. The fragility is obviously still an issue but thats a pretty common theme for the DE in general. All the upgrades are optional, obviously you can go overboard on upgrades but thats clearly not going to be a good idea as no matter what they are still going to be AV10. I totally fail to see why everyone is going to be adding Shock Prows to every Raider, and the Flickerfield isn't required for Raiders carrying assault troops (cause you go flat out to get a 4+ and they don't stack).

Hellions look pretty good but I really think people are overestimating the ability of to pull ICs out of combat. If you do it at the end of your turn its not going to make any difference as the unit you were fighting is just going to charge in again to support the character which got pulled out (which actually makes it worse as they are now charging). If you do it at the end of the enemy turn then you run into the same issue which always comes up with fragile Hit and Run units, surviving through two rounds of combat, and staying alive isn't something DE have ever been particularly good at. Most of the time you would be just as well off doing a normal Hit and Run, Assaulting the same unit again and allocating the plenty of attacks onto the character. I doubt Hellions are going to be able to fight there way through Eldrad even if they do pull him out of combat though, that 3++ with re-rolls is just too hard to crack (and you aren't going to ID him which is the easiest way to deal with him which doesn't require him being by himself).

How are Incubi too many points? From what I have seen of them they look like an absolute bargain. Sure they are pretty much single purpose (killing infantry in combat) which limits their use a bit, but they are still a unit of 2A S4 Power Weapons with 3+ saves which can get a bunch of other buffs. Marines pay a hell of a lot more than the 20 odd points per model Incubi are to get that. They are basically a combination of Howling Banshees and Scorpions with a transport which actually makes them usable.

Comparing Harlies to a soon to be non existent unit is rather pointless. They are currently the second best Elites choice available to Eldar (after Fire Dragons obviously) with their main issue being that they have no decent assault transports to use (yes not being able to buy one themselves is still a problem). In the DE list this isn't an issue as both the Venom and the Raider are open topped and they also have the ability to get in close with a webway portal. I can definitely see them being used as they are currently pretty multi purpose (Fusion Pistols to take on vehicles and can handle most things in assault) which is a drawback to some of the other DE Elite choices. I am a bit disappointed that they didn't get changed at all from the Eldar dex, an option for a transport would have been nice (even if it was only the Venom which owes its origins to the Harlies in the first place) but they are still a good unit.

Some Mathhammer for you regarding Wyches to back up what Hulksmash said. 27 Wych attacks, 4's to hit = 13.5 hits, 5's to wound = 4.46 wound, 3+ saves = 1.49 dead Marines. The Succubus, 4 attacks, 4's then 4's with an Agoniser = 1 dead Marine. In return 7 normal Marines (rounding down here so only two complete kills) get 7 attacks, 3.5 hits, 2.35 wound, 1.17 dead Wyches. The Sarge gets 3 attacks, 1.5 hits, 1.01 wounds = 0.51 dead Wyches (power weapon doesn't make a difference). So the Wyches are winning or at worst tying combat against a more expensive unit even assuming that they have no special weapons (unlikely to happen) or any buffs from the Combat Drug chart (which is impossible, they always get something) or any existing Pain Points (less likely but possible). As mentioned as mentioned there are better uses from them anyway, but you don't run in to full 10 man Marine units that often now, far more likely to see Combat Squads which the Wyches can happily take on (even multicharging two seperate 5 man units would be better, they focus on killing one, get a Pain Point and then deal with the other one).

"Some of the sc are really cool but dont make up for the lack of surviveability that the DE needed."



What? You want a 3+ save and a strength four bolter? Play space marines.

Rle68 wrote:

yes opinions vary and we can leave it at that

Ta.

The debate is fine, but.. let's not descend into squabbling and insults please.

I like the inclusion of the guy who stole Lukas' heart.

Must admit that the version of Decapitator we're presented with is nothing at all like I'd imagined, he seems like something from "Slaine the barbarian" almost. I guess it's another way of continuing the whole "scary monsters from the dark" vibe the codex has.

If this is the sort of product we get when Jez and his team are more actively involved in the writing process as well, then I hope this approach continues.

Preferably with a slightly quicker turnaround time however.

Rle68 wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Wyches are just fine. You just need to take them in units of 10. A unit of 10 w/out +1 St, FC, or WS5 but with a succubus with an agoniser. 27 attacks yields only 1.5 dead marines. The Succubus adds another dead marine. 7 Marines strike back and do a whopping...1 wound. The sergeant kill another .5 wyches (less than that but we'll round up). So wyches win combat. And that's with them costing 2/3's the amount of the squad their engaged with and not counting any combat drug result or shooting before charging. Yep, wyches suck....

Their role has changed. Honestly I wouldn't use them to kill marine squads. I'll let Wracks do that. Wyches are for tying up those nasty PW/TH heavy units. Even a termi squad (assuming no one dies) is only gonna kill 2 of them. And I think that the "dark lance spam" build is actually going to be one of the frailer, less competitive lists out there. I'd personally start experimenting with other units and fast.

Your opinions don't match mine at all Rle68 which is fine. But you read your statements like they are fact when they are opinion (and flawed opinion at that).

@Skarboy

Here, Here!

sorry my comments are based off of new dex stats and your 7 marines doing only 1 wound to a wych squad is disengenious at best needing only 3's to wound the wyches they will do more then a single wound and 4+ isnt automatic

my post showed several good things i see but wyches are no longer one of them the numbers dont lie

yes opinions vary and we can leave it at that

I think the new witches are an improvement really. I mean even the old wyches were not good against a tac squad anyway. Depending on the drug roll, often times you were avoiding tac squads, because you start to lose combat after the initial assault most the time. Wyches would typically hit on 4's wound on 5's on a full half of the drug rolls (granted the one where you re-roll hits was worth it!) Wyches have always been the unit you threw at the enemies elites like Vet squads, terminators, etc... Due to them (old ones) taking away the extra CC weapon, and lowering their WS by half (a defensive bonus really), and finally their 4+ inv save in CC. They were geared to take on and tie up terminators and their like.

Now they seem more geared to take on standard troops more effectively.

I agree wyches are fine now, and they are troops (now?)and so fulfill their role well. The elite version of them (if rumors are true) however is where they will shine as CC monsters perhaps.

The thing with Wyches was that unless you playing an en masse wych assault army, they standard wych attacks were never a particularly large factor anyway. The wych squads were merely there to ensure the succubus with the agoniser got through, in order to nail the appropriate carnifex/wraithlord, and 4+ invulnerable was to make sure they'd lived long enough for the succubus to topple the aforementioned big model.

Things like space marine tactical squads you just shot up with disentegrators. Wych armies were pretty much palmed off as non-competitive in 5th edition some time back. The way I see it, moving them to troops, dropping their points, and adding things like the cronos and pain tokens give you a way of enhancing the performance of your wyches.

I wouldn't commit to saying they were the obvious troops choice, as I'd need to give everything some serious math-hammer first, but as the Warrior is far from the bargain killer he was, they seem to be on par at least.

Right now, considering the codex from a competitive angle, I'd be looking at taking at the following.

HQ would be Urien Rakarth/Haemonculus/Archon

Elites would be Incubi/veteran warriors(Incubi are infantry killers, veteran warriors take on the IG aspect as tank buster squads in Venoms)

Troops would be wyches/Wracks

Fast Attack would be Jetbikes/Scourges(Jet bikes can still run as Reaver Blades for anti-tank, Scourges tooled out with anti-infantry)

Heavy Support would be Ravagers/the two new aircraft.(The ravagers with shimmer shields and night shields, and disentegrators for anti infantry, the new aircraft with void lances as the anti-tank)

Transports would be raiders with dark lances except for venoms for the vet warriors. That equalizes the slight leaning towards anti-infantry throughout the rest of the list.

Math-hammered, and balanced correctly, such a list gives a lot of killpower. It will still get shot up relatively easily, but that was always the trait of the DE army, and I'm glad to see that's not changed. The glass hammer aspect will weed out a lot of the new players relatively fast methinks.

On the wych debate, I'll stick with Hulksmash. He has enough of a reputation of a DE player that he's one of the only other three DE players on this board I'd pay attention to
(other than myself, obviously? ).

Ketara you have listed most of the units in the codex lol. You are also forgetting that both Wracks and Hellions can be made Troops. From what I have seen there are only a couple of dud units in the codex, notably Mandrakes (terrible until the kill something and then they are just ok) and Decapitator (the lone non IC thing isn't going to end well on a low T model), everything else could find a place in a competitive list. Certainly some units will only really work in specific builds, but you should be able to make most builds competitive now which is a nice change from 1-2 usable builds.

Things that are visibly 'non great' at first glance become good when used in lists that work out the weaknesses of the unit and work around it.

Except the ork deffcopta. On paper its 'ok' Until you work out its good in squads of 1 or 3.

You say most of the units in the codex. I'd say about half. I've left out most special characters, mandrakes, grotesques, beastmaster squads, hellions, elite wyches, Harlequins, Talos, and Cronos. So to conclude, I only listed about half

This isn't to say that all those I've listed now are duds, but they're not what I would consider to be top priority for building a competitive list, as the units I listed have more potential and killpower capabilities.

And actually, I listed Wracks as troops, so I'm pretty sure I wasn't forgetting that fact.
They'd be a waste of an elite slot though, so I didn't bother adding them in that section.

Ketara wrote:HQ would be Urien Rakarth/Haemonculus/Archon

Am I missing something? Isn't that 3 HQ's?

Can the DE take 3 hq's as Urien is a separate choice, Archon is a separate choice and the Haemy becomes the 3rd (I do not believe you can take a Haemy with Urien and count it as 1).

Hoping I'm wrong...

I think he means a selection of one of.

Wyches are fine. Look at the unit again and remember you get the result of the combat drug roll to affect their statline. So, if you get:

3d6 run moves - the weakest result, but increases your odds at 25-26" charge range from Raider
+1 strength - your wounds against T4 models just went up to 2.25 and you Agonizer re-rolls wounds, so you probably kill at least 4 marines on charge... before they strike back
+1 weapon skill - now you hit on 3+, meaning your basic wyches will deliver more hits and more wounds, same for your Agonizer
+1 attack - your 10-man squad throws out 41 dice on the charge
Re-roll wounds - you wound more than having +1 strength and amazingly makes your agonizer insanely good
Pain Counter - you gain FNP and double the survivability of the unit

Bear in mind, you get all this FOR FREE and with each unit kill, they get tougher.

You want versatility? Give the unit Haywire Grenades and become a huge threat to vehicles. Toss in a Blast Pistol for fun.

How about assigning a Haemonculus to the unit? Now you have a free Pain Counter (FNP) and can add a Liquifier, Huskblade, any of the Haemonculus tricks to the unit and have a second big hitter in addition to your Hekatrix.

You can synergize the unit to the Raider by giving the raider anti-infantry upgrades (Disintegrator Cannon, Slave Snares, etc.) or maintain duality by keeping the Dark Lance.

Bear in mind, you get all this from a troop choice that costs 10 pts per model with very affordable upgrades and transports. I fail to see how in any way that's a bad troop choice.

Bravo Skarboy. Bravo. Honestly, there is no reason to think Wyches are a waste/worthless.

On another note, Wyche weapons just have to be used properly in CC. Obviously you can't just move those models to whatever model you want to have HtH with, but as the squad diminishes, you leave those in. Eventually, that SM Sergent is going to have to deal with them. Leave the models with Wyche Weapons by your Model with the agonizer and watch what happens.

How many points is a unit of 5 wyches with an agoniser, blaster pistol + haywire grenades now?

Hm well I pretty much memorized the book after 1 read.. so I believe the answer is

105

Skarboy wrote:Wyches are fine. Look at the unit again and remember you get the result of the combat drug roll to affect their statline. So, if you get:

3d6 run moves - the weakest result, but increases your odds at 25-26" charge range from Raider
+1 strength - your wounds against T4 models just went up to 2.25 and you Agonizer re-rolls wounds, so you probably kill at least 4 marines on charge... before they strike back
+1 weapon skill - now you hit on 3+, meaning your basic wyches will deliver more hits and more wounds, same for your Agonizer
+1 attack - your 10-man squad throws out 41 dice on the charge
Re-roll wounds - you wound more than having +1 strength and amazingly makes your agonizer insanely good
Pain Counter - you gain FNP and double the survivability of the unit

Bear in mind, you get all this FOR FREE and with each unit kill, they get tougher.

You want versatility? Give the unit Haywire Grenades and become a huge threat to vehicles. Toss in a Blast Pistol for fun.

How about assigning a Haemonculus to the unit? Now you have a free Pain Counter (FNP) and can add a Liquifier, Huskblade, any of the Haemonculus tricks to the unit and have a second big hitter in addition to your Hekatrix.

You can synergize the unit to the Raider by giving the raider anti-infantry upgrades (Disintegrator Cannon, Slave Snares, etc.) or maintain duality by keeping the Dark Lance.

Bear in mind, you get all this from a troop choice that costs 10 pts per model with very affordable upgrades and transports. I fail to see how in any way that's a bad troop choice.

Right on





Seriously guys, no reason to panic. Phil Kelly wrote the book, it's going to have multiple builds, have a unique play style and be enjoyable to play. I'm much more concerned with my Custodes/Grey Knight rules coming from Cruddace...

AgeOfEgos wrote:Right on





Seriously guys, no reason to panic. Phil Kelly wrote the book, it's going to have multiple builds, have a unique play style and be enjoyable to play. I'm much more concerned with my Custodes/Grey Knight rules coming from Cruddace...

And the Necron rules from Mad Ward...

I think the wych comparisons are flawed. You guys are comparing the Old wych choice from the Elite slot to the new one in the Troops slot. Shouldn't we compare the old wych choice with the new Hekatrix's in the Elites?

I actually disagree with Hulksmash about the Dark Lance spam. While it was better in the old codex, you can still viably do it in the new codex. However, if that was your build, the new codex doesn't do it nearly as well. That build can hang with most armies, but will lose to the razorspam lists of today that do the same strategy better.

I forgot, but can you give mandrakes the webway portal? If so...they have a use after all...

nope, WWP can only be taken by Archons and Heamonculi.

then Mandrakes may truly only have one use... painting for painting sake..

What is the viability of having a 20man Warrior squad waiting to come out of the WWP? Is such a large troop choice worth taking if combined with fire support and MSU Wych attacks.

you seem to forget in the old dex wyches are troops as well

they dont add up to the new ones plain and simple and i have won more tournies with my de than most of you have won with any army you have so please spare me the i dont know what im talking about

the wyches are not nearly as effective as they once were and how many tournie players play space marines that only get one attack? not many. not if they are any good so go back to your math hammer recalculate with marines doing 2 plus attacks each, and then try again

the simple fact all of you left off is the omission of 2 blasters, those 2 assault weapons made a huge difference not only for armor but for anything thats 2 wounds or 2 kills before the assault

now you say use haywire grenades? thats 20 points added to wyches and thats only good for armor and if your using wyches to attack armor , you have already lost

i have read here you want to add this upgrade and that upgrade add this character etc now what added points are you now willing to add to do what they did before? point for point the wyches are no longer as effective as they once were they were troops before they are troops now but i wouldnt use them.

i am saddened that my favorite part of the army has been reduced to a pale shadow of its former self

Skarboy good work . . . just one thing . . . AFAIK the Agoniser isn't poison, it's just 4+ to wound . . . so the bonus strength make no difference. (unless you want easier wounds on Gants, but leaving them with a save . . . I'll let someone else mathhammer that one )

Oshova

@Rle68

Those "good" marine players generally aren't running 10 man squads (As BA's or SW's) either so it's a wash except that each wound does more damage than it did before because each wound costs more attacks. But your right, we probably don't know anything

As for the pts. the squad is around 30pts cheaper (more with haywire grenades) than the last dex. Correct me if I'm wrong but I was pretty sure Wyches couldn't get FnP in the last edition. Must have missed that. Must have missed FC being an option too.....

Compare wyches to the elite slot wyches. You'll be happier. The points add up and they will do about the same amount of damage as they used to. Wyches in the last codex had to have a very specific build to be troops which isn't the case anymore. Now they are generic troops with a specific role in the army. They aren't worse, they're more tailored and different. Sorry that you'll have to grow your army and ideas. IF your such a solid tourney player this shouldn't be a problem anyway

This might have already come up, but can a unit without Power through Pain (i.e. Harlequins) benefit from the bonuses incurred if an independent character (i.e. Heamonuli) joins the unit? FNP Harlequins would rock...

Btw, as others have stated Wyches are different from the last edition, but they're a solid complementary unit for some of the harder hitters in the army. Cores of Wyches and Wracks are going to be a nice duo with some added survivability through pain tokens.

Current possible list:

Baron Sky-board-105
2xNaken Haemonculi-100

2x3 Trueborn w/2 DL's in Raider-292
6 Incubi w/Sergeant Upgrade and flamer in Raider-222

2x9 Wracks w/Agoniser Sergeant in Raider-360
2x10 Wyches w/HW grenades and Agoniser Sergeant in Raider-420
10 Hellions w/Agoniser Sergeant-185

3xRavagers w/Darklances-315

1,999 and full of nasty. Though I'm not totally sold on my elites. Those are the non-core of my army and subject to change. But it's a decent 17 DL's supported by 5 decent combat units and 1 curbstomper unit.

Anyone else think Lelith Hesperax sucks now?

Not having read the codex really, I can just say what I think on what I know a bit about . . . and that is that Hellions as a troop choice . . . they're not the most durable unit in the game. And yes, they're getting FnP after killing a unit, they get a Jink save (IIRC) but in the end they will die. More so than the other troop choices.

However, with 4 other troop choices, you're not exactly hard pressed to rely on the Hellions to hold an objective . . . not that Wyches are good at that either . . .

Basically what I'm saying is, stick some Warriors in to hold objectives. They're not power-armoured T4 marines . . . but they can lay down a good rate of fire to cover other units, and can happily sit in cover and still be useful.

Oshova

Rle68 wrote:and i have won more tournies with my de than most of you have won with any army you have so please spare me the i dont know what im talking about

I burst out laughing here. You clearly under-estimate the skills of anyone who disagrees with you. Such a poor appraisal of mine and Hulksmash's abilities confirms the fact in my mind, that anything you might have to say on strategy is clearly laughable, if you have to resort to such petty rebuttals. I mean, seriously?

Player 1: I think unit x is bad.
Player 2: I disagree. Why? Because of reasons, 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, and 8.
Player 1: Well you people clearly suck at this game and I'm awesome. Therefore I'm right.

Guess which one of those players you are right now?

kenshin620 wrote:If Crons/other xenos get to tyranid tier kinda like how it seems DE are, we're gonna have a problem

DE i think are going to be above Tyranid Tier. They have the speed to close with shooty armies on turn 1, and also have the shooting power to soften up assault-oriented armies for 2 turns before they charge.

So true Ketara . . . Please people, if you're going to give some adive, rules or tactics advice . . . then atleast back it up with something . . . not just "I'm better than you because I know I am . . ."

And I don't like the whole 'tier' way of thinking. Yes some armies are easier to use than others (namely marines) but really the tier system is just used as an excuse for losing. Yes it's hard to win with some lists agaisnt others. But please, if you both have all-comers lists, then in all likelyhood it's coming down to luck and the general's skills.

Oshova

Alot of this is the fact, despite what we know of the new rules currently, the army has not been played yet. It's one thing to look at a specific and think, Doom DOOM!!!

I still remain encouraged by the changes I see from the new codex and I'm a Realist not an Optimist. It's apparent that those DE players that have relied on the 'one build to rule them all' will be able to continue to use that one build. I think what has yet to be proven is how other builds can work.

Sorry, I'm not a 'tournament' player and I never will be. Such a thing sucks all the fun out of the game and I prefer to have fun. So yeah, I play lists that will not be power builds, unless I just happen to manage concocting one.

Hulksmash wrote:Current possible list:

Baron Sky-board-105
2xNaken Haemonculi-100

2x3 Trueborn w/2 DL's in Raider-292
6 Incubi w/Sergeant Upgrade and flamer in Raider-222

2x9 Wracks w/Agoniser Sergeant in Raider-360
2x10 Wyches w/HW grenades and Agoniser Sergeant in Raider-420
10 Hellions w/Agoniser Sergeant-185

3xRavagers w/Darklances-315

1,999 and full of nasty. Though I'm not totally sold on my elites. Those are the non-core of my army and subject to change. But it's a decent 17 DL's supported by 5 decent combat units and 1 curbstomper unit.

I kinda like it but I just don't think wracks are good at all, but this is coming from someone who will always prefer warriors. Naked Haemies don't seem to provide much of anything besides give two free pain tokens to the wracks but then their usefulness is gone.

3x ravagers always good, though I'm thinking of trying to axe one of the ravagers and find room for a void raven. I think its a great vehicle but I also might be suffering from a "new toy" feel.

I can't really say much though because my LGS can't get a codex so without really reading it for myself I can't really comment on a list, I just posting what I think looks good.

Amaya wrote:Anyone else think Lelith Hesperax sucks now?

Sucks? What have you been smoking? Thatl girl 10 attacks on the charge against marines and when she helps wipe a squad gains feel no pain then try 10 S4 Furious charging attacks. Oh ya shes horrible lol.

My to buy list at the mo is as follows.(I already have an Archon)

HQ-Two Haemonculi

Elite:- two squads of five warriors, with 4 blasters each, and a unit of five Incubi

Troops:-One squad of ten warriors with one lance, one squad of ten wyches, two squads of ten wracks

Fast Attack: One Squad of 5 scourges, with two splinter cannons, one squad of three jetbikes with a blaster

Heavy Support: Two Ravagers with Disintegrators, one Void Raven(assuming that's the one with two void lances)

Transports: 3 Venoms, 4 Raiders

Mind totalling that all up points wise for me Hulksmash? I don't have the codex in front of me right now, so it's difficult to estimate the points cost. That's roughly the 1500 point first list I'm looking at collecting to feel out the army.

CajunMan550 wrote:

Amaya wrote:Anyone else think Lelith Hesperax sucks now?

Sucks? What have you been smoking? Thatl girl 10 attacks on the charge against marines and when she helps wipe a squad gains feel no pain then try 10 S4 Furious charging attacks. Oh ya shes horrible lol.

She's also only s3, only t3, not eternal and 80 points more expensive than she used to be. And she doesn't have poisoned weapons or combat drugs. So yes, I think she sucks now.

It's around 1800 with the all the squads being naked and no upgrades on the raiders/venoms.

*whistles*
It has to be said, the new list does seem to be a lot pricier. I used to be able to easily fit 4 troops, 3 heavy support and an HQ into a 1000 points.

Thanks for the add up.

Amaya wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:

Amaya wrote:Anyone else think Lelith Hesperax sucks now?

Sucks? What have you been smoking? Thatl girl 10 attacks on the charge against marines and when she helps wipe a squad gains feel no pain then try 10 S4 Furious charging attacks. Oh ya shes horrible lol.

She's also only s3, only t3, not eternal and 80 points more expensive than she used to be. And she doesn't have poisoned weapons or combat drugs. So yes, I think she sucks now.

She does have a PW though, and the opponent isn't suppose to survive her swinging first I believe is the point. By herself sure she sucks but I believe she needs a body guard to soak up the majority of hits. But really if you bring along wyches with her or incubi theres not many things that'll live to swing back.

CajunMan550 wrote:

Amaya wrote:Anyone else think Lelith Hesperax sucks now?

Sucks? What have you been smoking? Thatl girl 10 attacks on the charge against marines and when she helps wipe a squad gains feel no pain then try 10 S4 Furious charging attacks. Oh ya shes horrible lol.

I think what he's saying is she lost the Agonizer. So it will be harder for her to wound stuff, but she stills ignores armor if I'm not mistaken. It is very sad, however, that she probably can't fight Demon Princes and such anymore. She also used to come with a Shadow Field. Now She'll be lost to Instant Death more often. Plus, she used to be allowed to choose her combat drug result. Now she gets no drugs. Overall, she gained some neat stuff, but she also lost some very nice things.

CajunMan550 wrote:

Amaya wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:

Amaya wrote:Anyone else think Lelith Hesperax sucks now?

Sucks? What have you been smoking? Thatl girl 10 attacks on the charge against marines and when she helps wipe a squad gains feel no pain then try 10 S4 Furious charging attacks. Oh ya shes horrible lol.

She's also only s3, only t3, not eternal and 80 points more expensive than she used to be. And she doesn't have poisoned weapons or combat drugs. So yes, I think she sucks now.

She does have a PW though, and the opponent isn't suppose to survive her swinging first I believe is the point. By herself sure she sucks but I believe she needs a body guard to soak up the majority of hits. But really if you bring along wyches with her or incubi theres not many things that'll live to swing back.

Succubus's will be better imo.

Archonate wrote:

CajunMan550 wrote:

Amaya wrote:Anyone else think Lelith Hesperax sucks now?

Sucks? What have you been smoking? Thatl girl 10 attacks on the charge against marines and when she helps wipe a squad gains feel no pain then try 10 S4 Furious charging attacks. Oh ya shes horrible lol.

I think what he's saying is she lost the Agonizer. So it will be harder for her to wound stuff, but she stills ignores armor if I'm not mistaken. It is very sad, however, that she probably can't fight Demon Princes and such anymore. She also used to come with a Shadow Field. Now She'll be lost to Instant Death more often. Plus, she used to be allowed to choose her combat drug result. Now she gets no drugs. Overall, she gained some neat stuff, but she also lost some very nice things.

If you played by the rules like me, she never got the drugs.

But yeah, she has very different targets now. DP and TMC are the targets of Warriors now.

Lelith will rock when you juice her. It's easy to get her up to S5. People just want automatic win. Well it looks like DE are a thinker's army. Maybe Phil is maturing now.

Lelith can't take drugs...

And Yes, Phil "I REALLY WANTED TO DO TYRANIDS THIS TIME" Kelly has done a good job on this.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Lelith will rock when you juice her. It's easy to get her up to S5. People just want automatic win. Well it looks like DE are a thinker's army. Maybe Phil is maturing now.

You can only get her to s4.

Oshova wrote:Skarboy good work . . . just one thing . . . AFAIK the Agoniser isn't poison, it's just 4+ to wound . . . so the bonus strength make no difference. (unless you want easier wounds on Gants, but leaving them with a save . . . I'll let someone else mathhammer that one )

Oshova

You are correct, my mistake. Even with that adjustment, I'll stand on the overall assertion that wyches are fine and probably even better once folks understand the nuances of the wych weapons and other supporting options better.

Think again. Please read the codex and don't rely upon a troll. Seriously.

Who thinks an all Hellion army would be cool?

It would be very cool. Cosmic surfboards for the win dude.

So Wracks have the same leadership as Wyches and Warriors? It seems odd that haemunculi have lower leadership than the wrack leader.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:It would be very cool. Cosmic surfboards for the win dude.

Do you get bonus victory points if you pull tricks while surfing the webway?

Regarding Lelith,
she is WS 9, if i recall, marines will only hit her on a 5,6?
She has the shard net modifier, so thats -1 attack per model in base to base contact. She can have 9-12 attacks. Thats 6-9 hits, and 2-3 wounds. If working with the theoretical 10 marine squad, then thats 7-8 left. Of their7-8 attacks, hitting on 5, 6's, then thats, 1.5 to maybe 3 at best hits. She has
a 4+ so chances are good she will save and continue to wreak havoc the next round.
I might not jump Lysander with her, but troop type units are going to take a bleeding.

So besides the Voidlance, do DE have anything that can destroy a Necron Monolith?

Archonate wrote:So besides the Voidlance, do DE have anything that can destroy a Necron Monolith?

Did i see Haywire grandes somewhere?

They have quite a lot of S10 so yes they can smash liths.

I would give up some major props for a cosmic surfer army any day dude.

does anyone know if you have 2 units in cc with a single unit and they win do both units get a pain token?

For those who can look at the codex...

What recommendations or descriptions for models does the codex have for the following unit types as most (if not all) are now gone from the website or new:

* Scourges
* Wracks
* Grosteques (mis-spelled)
* Venom
* Razorwing
* Voidraven
* Beastmasters Beasts (three are three types I think?)

Thanks.

Oshova wrote:So true Ketara . . . Please people, if you're going to give some adive, rules or tactics advice . . . then atleast back it up with something . . . not just "I'm better than you because I know I am . . ."

And I don't like the whole 'tier' way of thinking. Yes some armies are easier to use than others (namely marines) but really the tier system is just used as an excuse for losing. Yes it's hard to win with some lists agaisnt others. But please, if you both have all-comers lists, then in all likelyhood it's coming down to luck and the general's skills.

Oshova

This.

What I like so far about the new book is that it seems a lot of the suggested lists being posted online are moving away from the usual spam lists. I'm seeing a lot of people thinking of taking a wide variety of units, that is good, and means that GW did a good job writing the codex.

rodgers37 wrote:

Archonate wrote:So besides the Voidlance, do DE have anything that can destroy a Necron Monolith?

Did i see Haywire grandes somewhere?

Scourges can have Haywire Grenade Launchers, but it is a weapon choice, just like a Dark Lance or a Blaster. However, it does have a 24" range and it does count as a haywire grenade, so a pretty reliable glance, at least, if not a pen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ketara wrote:

Elite:- two squads of five warriors, with 4 blasters each, and a unit of five Incubi

I keep seeing this. Since they're just elite troops, I wonder if they'll be making any different models. Otherwise, 8 blasters may require 8 boxes of troops, if there's 1 blaster per.

puma713 wrote:

Ketara wrote:

Elite:- two squads of five warriors, with 4 blasters each, and a unit of five Incubi

I keep seeing this. Since they're just elite troops, I wonder if they'll be making any different models. Otherwise, 8 blasters may require 8 boxes of troops, if there's 1 blaster per.

Doubt it. They seem more like Imperial Guard Veterans than Space Marine Sternguard Veterans

BloodThirSTAR wrote:They have quite a lot of S10 so yes they can smash liths.

I would give up some major props for a cosmic surfer army any day dude.

By quite a lot, you mean 3? Two of which are 12", one is 6" and two of the three are "one shot only". And all 3 are blast weapons, so they have a chance to scatter. 1 shot, scattering blast is not necessarily an arsenal with which to "smash liths". Not to mention that one of them is even AP - .

I also see a move away from spam. Dark eldar can run a fairly high model count compared to other elite armies. This is one reason why I am really liking the codex.

puma713 wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:They have quite a lot of S10 so yes they can smash liths.

I would give up some major props for a cosmic surfer army any day dude.

By quite a lot, you mean 3? Two of which are 12", one is 6" and two of the three are "one shot only". And all 3 are blast weapons, so they have a chance to scatter. 1 shot, scattering blast is not necessarily an arsenal with which to "smash liths". Not to mention that one of them is even AP - .

Kerching!

Although Archon's can potentially get Str10, but that will be relying on beating 2 characters and then reaching the 'lith so...

However, I'd say Dark Eldar are plenty fast enough to reach and phase out the troops so that shouldn't be too much of a problem IMHO. I think the biggest concern is how they may fair against IG Parking Lot and Space Marine Razorback spam...

If you take Vect you have 75 percent odds to go first. When mech players realize this they will opt to place their army in reserve. So you move flatout into their deployment zone and let them come in piece meal. This gives dark eldar numerical supremacy which they can capitalize on using their melta lances and haywire grenades. Armies that rely solely upon mech units will suffer greatly in close combat versus DE. The other problem was hordes but now as many realize DE have poison weapons.

How does poison help against hoards?

Poison is more effective against High Toughness elite units, not hoards.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you take Vect you have 75 percent odds to go first. When mech players realize this they will opt to place their army in reserve. So you move flatout into their deployment zone and let them come in piece meal. This gives dark eldar numerical supremacy which they can capitalize on using their melta lances and haywire grenades. Armies that rely solely upon mech units will suffer greatly in close combat versus DE. The other problem was hordes but now as many realize DE have poison weapons.

Well, I predict a really interesting dog fight when this DE set up meets an IG company with strong Outflank elements ( Vendettas etc. ). Should be fun .

Cpt. Rusty Hook wrote:does anyone know if you have 2 units in cc with a single unit and they win do both units get a pain token?

It never specifies in the book if I were you I would stay on the side of caution and just go with the unit that landed the final wound or ran them down if both ran them down then that is different in that case I think you should just pick which one gets the token and wait for them to FAQ if they both get one

Gwar! wrote:How does poison help against hoards?

Poison is more effective against High Toughness elite units, not hoards.

True, but the poison gets rid of the bigger bugs pretty easily, and leaves the troop types
to be dealt with at leisure.

Poison is bad news for monstrous creatures and DE can wreck gaunts in assault. Nidz have the ability to spam FNP widespread across their army while Orks dont unless you take a special character.

BloodThirSTAR wrote:Poison is bad news for monstrous creatures and DE can wreck gaunts in assault. Nidz have the ability to spam FNP widespread across their army while Orks dont unless you take a special character.

Huh? What does FNP have to do with anything?

I am confuse!

And orks don't hey mass FNP, you are thinking of Mass 5++.

A-P wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you take Vect you have 75 percent odds to go first. When mech players realize this they will opt to place their army in reserve. So you move flatout into their deployment zone and let them come in piece meal. This gives dark eldar numerical supremacy which they can capitalize on using their melta lances and haywire grenades. Armies that rely solely upon mech units will suffer greatly in close combat versus DE. The other problem was hordes but now as many realize DE have poison weapons.

Well, I predict a really interesting dog fight when this DE set up meets an IG company with strong Outflank elements ( Vendettas etc. ). Should be fun .

I predict DE will have trouble with heavy drop-pod armies, like an in-your-face SW army that pods in 3 or 4 MSUs/Dreads.