Kirasu wrote:Its not as clunky as the original book at all..

One wych gets +d6 attacks, re-rolls hits and wounds or models in BTB lose 1 attack.. Thats pretty easy

As oppose to having to determine who was half strength, half WS, -1 attack.. etc. Only the -1 attack will slow down the game at all

If you believe it would be fair if the entire unit got +D6 attacks or rerolls hits and wounds.. well, Im glad its not that way

HERO wrote:Out of all the FA choices, I'm only sold on Scourge. They are Jump Troops and have ridiculous options for weapons. At 22ppm, for every 5 models, 2 of them can replace their Shard Carbines with special weapons. That means in a squad of 10, they can have 5 special weapons ranging from Splinter Cannons (yes, Cannons), Haywire Blasters, Heatlances, Blasters and Dark Lances. Imagine a full squad of 10 running around with 4x Haywire Blasters or Heatlances messing around with vehicles. Now imagine 10 with 4x Splinter Cannons pouring out a ridiculous amount of poison shots per squad. Start the game with an attached Haemonculus with a Hexfire Rifle just so the squad can get FNP (along their 4+ save) and then run off to do his own thing. With enough targets to saturate the field, these guys might actually get some field time.

Hellions are also pretty good at 16ppm. They have 2 shots each with poisoned shots and can cover really good range. I see these guys as the anti-infantry jump infantry and their special ability to hook combat ICs out of units can really offset how certain close combats play out. The one thing that I look at and can't see much play from is the 22ppm Reaper Jetbikes. First, they're T4 with a 5+ armor save. Sure, they can boost across the map with a 36" Turboboost and still inflict some damage, but I find them to be one of those really fragile units that's big play or big loss. The damage that they can inflict on enemy vehicles' side armor is pretty decent with S6 hits, but you have to pay for those (+20 each) on top of the 22ppm on a T4 5+ model. I like how they look, my god do they look fantastic, but I can't see these guys being any more than a nuisance.

I also examined the HQ choices again and I would like to add one more person to the list I find to be cost effective. Lady Malys is actually quite fantastic for her points. For 130, she makes her and whatever squad she's in immune to psychic abilities. She has Archon stats (7s across the board except for S/T) and has 5 attacks with a modified Djin's Blade. That can give her a possible 8 attacks on the charge! If the blade rebels, no worries, it automatically misses her because she saw it coming. On top of this, she also has a 4++ true invulnerable save, nothing like Shadow Field or anything like that. Her one big ability that effects how the game is played is Precognist. This allows her to reposition +D3 units after deployment, including putting them back in reserve. All this for 130 points is a bargain I would say.

After looking at the Venom vs. Raider argument again, I took another long hard look at the two and came up with the following: Venoms aren't too bad. They're 55 points, so 5 less than a Raider but comes with some serious anti-infantry weaponry. They also come with Flickerfields so that's a free 5++ invulnerable. I would say these things are great anti-infantry paper-thin Razorbacks. They can replace their TL Splinter Rifles with another Splinter Cannon for 10 points so they can have 2. That's a total of 12 poisoned shots coming out from 36" while moving 6" because of Fast. For 65 points, you have a wound generator that can remain at max range and apply pressure to any infantry that gets blown out of their transports. Throw some cheap Wyches or Warriors in them and they act as pretty solid scoring transports that can put down a decent amount of hurt. I think when put into that perspective, their usefulness just increased by a lot.

In terms of Warriors, I think the idea configuration for them will be a Blaster and a Dark Lance. The Champion should probably take a Agnoizer for +20 or Power Weapon for +10 and call it a day. As for Wyches, I think the best loadout for them will be 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Champ with Phantasm Launcher and Agonizer. After thinking really hard about which one will generate more wounds; the Hydra Gauntlets or the Razorflails and I think the Hydra Gauntlets will probably offer more. The good thing about Wyches or Bloodbrides or is that you can put them in a Raider with Aethersails and just run them towards the enemy ASAP. Once they're locked in combat, their 4++ invulnerable will increase their chances to live by a lot and if you manage to give them FNP with some Pain Tokens then it's all good.

I also took a brief look at the Truebloods and Incubii again just to see what I thought about them were true. For Truebloods, yes. They are amazing even though you have to pay for Plasma Grenades (+1 point each) for them; increasing their point cost from 12 to 13. I figured since you're willing to go that far, you'll probably be better off just upgrading to a Champ and taking Phantasm Launchers for both offensive and defensive grenades for the entire squad. The special weapon choices for them is what really does it for me: +5 points per Shredder, +15 for a Blaster, +10 for Splinter Cannon and +25 for Dark Lance is solid. A full squad of these guys shooting from a Raider will put the most ridiculous kind of hurt on anything in the game. The best part is that you can customize for all kinds of engagements; 4x Blasters and 2x Dark Lances for example, will be my ideal loadout if I wanted to destroy armor.

As for Incubii, I think they're trash. They're 22ppm and they're the premiere anti-infantry close combat specialists in the entire army and they DO NOT have an option for Plasma Grenades. What?! Yes, its true and it upsets me to the fullest. How do you make these guys so utterly badass in melee, give them I5 stats and not give them offensive grenades against MEQ camping in cover? They do have something that's good though.. they can take a dedicated transport whereas Harlequins cannot. In terms of field maneuverability though, Harlequins still have these guys beat hands down. I'll probably be taking a full squad with both Shadowseer and Troupe Master just so I can maximize the amount of damage I can inflict on any stragglers left outside their transports. For Incubii, aside from taking a Raider with Aethersails and delivering them, the only other method of delivering them is by a Webway Portal. I'm still not convinced that's the best way to deliver them as I would rather shoot the hell out of my targets first and then run much cheaper Wyches at them after.

For CC options, I almost feel that DE have too many options. I'm not sure what's wrong with me but I don't find Mandrakes any decent. They cost 15ppm, give them a Pain Token and each of them can get 18" S4 AP4 Assault 2 Pinning shots. That's not too bad because they have Stealth and Infiltrate so they can sneak into the enemy's back lines, but they're still 15ppm. I find that you can get better results with cheaper and more effective Wyches with all their gory goodness.

Another unit that's part of this CC train is the Wrack. They're really cheap at 10ppm and come with 2x poison blades and FNP since they start with one Pain Token. If you've got some Haemonculii in your army, you can take a bunch of these guys and give them Furious Charge with your additional Pain Token. Now you have FNP/FC units charging you with poisoned attacks. Not bad if you're going with Haemonculii in your army and you don't like the fragile nature of Wyches.

So in summary, what do I think about Dark Eldar? I think they're really cool, really fast and really nasty. I also think they're going to be the hardest race to play in 40K. They need expert precision to deliver results and any misplays will result in a loss. The entire army has AV10/11 with nothing going above that except for Vect's flagship. Everything has to work in perfect unison and execution of play must be perfect. This is exactly what I'm looking for an Elven army in space. Below, I will formulate another unit bucket but in greater detail and showcasing exactly what weapon configurations I would take in "my" DE army:

Archon
Shadow Field, Agonizer, Combat Drugs - My regular go-to guy, 115 points
Shadow Field, Husk Blade, Combat Drugs, Soul Trap - more MC/IC killer, 140.

Lelith Hesperax
WS9 vs. WS4 troops can give her 10 attacks at I9 S3 for 175 points
3++ in close combat and 4++ outside means she wants to be in combat and taking heads.

Duke Sliscus the Serpent
Imo, the best HQ buy in the book. For 150 points, he makes Raiders, Venoms and Ravagers DS.
Comes with a Shadow Field and Blast Pistol, wounds on 2+ in CC and 5+ ignores armor saves.
Gives one squad better poison so their rifles wound on 3+ instead of 4+.
Gives the entire army better combat drugs, roll 2 dice and pick whichever you want when rolling drugs.

Lady Malys
For 130 points, she's basically an Archon with a better Djinn Blade and a 4++ invulnerable.
Can redeploy D3 of your units after deployment and is completely immune to psychic attacks.

Asdrubal Vect
Pay 240 points to seize initiative on a 4+.
Shadow Field and a power weapon that always wound on 3+.
Preferred enemy vs. all and re-rolls wounds vs. Eldar and Dark Eldar.
You can buy up a AV13/13/13 Raider with 3x Dark Lances for 200 points.

10x Warriors, Blaster, Dark Lance, Raider w/ Splinter Racks = 200
Bare bones cheap with no Champ. Blaster and Dark Lance for some anti-armor and Splinter Racks so everyone gets re-rolls to hit with their poisoned Splinter Rifles. If you want pure poison, you can drop the Dark Lance and Blaster and just go with a Splinter Cannon.

10x Wyches, Hekatrix, Phantasm, Agonizer, 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Raider w/ Aethersails = 225
Get up in your face, jump out and start swinging. Hopefully whatever you targeted with your Bombers and other units have already popped your intended target vehicle and the guys inside are ready to rock (or get rocked).

10x Trueborn, 4x Blasters, 2x Dark Lances, Raider w/ Flickerfields and Night Shields = 320
This is my boardside ship with the amount of hurt it can deliver to armor. Your objective is to saturate the field with as many targets as possible and then bring this thing around at any armor that's in your way. With this much firepower coming from the Raider, you're looking at guaranteed destruction of said target. If you really want to be badass, you should take Vect's gunship and load 9 of these guys in there.

10x Scourge w/ 4x Splinter Cannons = 260
Let's see what you get for 260 points with Splinter Cannons. Each one has Assault 3 Poisoned shots that shoots at 18". Each Splinter Cannon shoots with Assault 4 Poisoned shots or Heavy 6 when standing still. Total, per turn, you're looking at 34 poisoned shots per turn from 10 dudes at 18" or 16 at 36" (24 standing still). Utterly ridiculous.

10x Harlequins, Kisses, Shadowseer, Troupe Master w/ Power Weapon = 256
Shadowseer and 8x Harlequins have kisses, Troupe Master has a Weapon Weapon, and I might take a Death Jester just because for no reason. These guys do their job and they do it very well.

Voidraven Bomber w/ Flickerfields and Night Shields, 2x Shatterfield Missiles = 185
Take three of these every game. There's no reason not to! I mean if you look at it, each one shoots two S9 AP2 Lance while moving. Each Shatterfield Missile is a S7 5" blast with re-rolls to wound and you can even drop a S9 AP2 Lance 5" blast on someone's head. Stay in the back and shoot away!

Ravager w/ Flickerfields and Night Shields = 125
Mobile shooting platform with 3x Dark Lances. Stay at max range and shoot away all game. Those that target these will not be targeting your troops so it's all good.

Sidstyler wrote::\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

Sidstyler wrote::\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

Archonate wrote:

Sidstyler wrote::\ Everyone's hating on incubi, that's really depressing. The incubi were my favorite of the new models and if they're not worth using I'm going to be pissed.

They actually seem very much like they used to be. As long as they're WS5, S4, I5, A2, Sv3+ with power weapons, they're gonna cut fools as good as ever. Only now they have fleet, making them a little better!

DaR wrote:

Power Through Pain tokens make them one of the tougher units DE can field. 3+ with FNP, even on T3, is pretty respectable. You can easily get a PtP token right from the start by having a Haemonculi join them, then having him split off at some point. Or from the shooting attacks of a Cronos.

Gwar! wrote:

zeekill wrote:

BloodThirSTAR wrote:If you take Vect you have 75 percent odds to go first. When mech players realize this they will opt to place their army in reserve. So you move flatout into their deployment zone and let them come in piece meal. This gives dark eldar numerical supremacy which they can capitalize on using their melta lances and haywire grenades. Armies that rely solely upon mech units will suffer greatly in close combat versus DE. The other problem was hordes but now as many realize DE have poison weapons.

Even better, you move Raiders flat out 24"+2D6" first turn

Then another 24+2D6" second turn and park them literally all across his Board Edge. His second turn, half his army comes in and dies immediately because it cant deploy (minus outflanking vendettas) (2/3 die if he took the astropath).

Then third turn you pivot a little bit and light up the vendettas, his third turn you are still covering the edge and the rest of his army dies.

At the very least you will be having raider-Vendetta dogfights for the rest of the game, but you will be winning by around 14 killpoints

Now obviously this is will not happen every time, but you have to admit that would be just about the most awesome way to win a game

What?

This part is not what the rules say.

zeekill wrote:If they need to come off of the table edge but they cannot actually drive onto the table because there is no gap large enough to fit his vehicles (or giant blob squads for that matter) then they count as destroyed.

CajunMan550 wrote:@evil that guy won cuz the other guy couldn't deploy all game long. Things die if they can't get on by the end so all his gak died.

CajunMan550 wrote:@evil that guy won cuz the other guy couldn't deploy all game long. Things die if they can't get on by the end so all his gak died.

whocares wrote:I like how their transport section specifically says that you can not take a transport for a squad too large for it to hold.

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

Gwar! wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

puma713 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

And why would an entire army not be deployed turn 1, allowing someone to get flush with their board edge? Everyone being in reserve.

Edit: Can we leave YMDC in the YMDC forum? There's a reason I hardly ever go in there anymore.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

And why would an entire army not be deployed turn 1, allowing someone to get flush with their board edge? Everyone being in reserve.

Edit: Can we leave YMDC in the YMDC forum? There's a reason I hardly ever go in there anymore.

And again, they are not in reserves at the end of the game, they made their reserve rolls, so they cannot be in reserves.

To claim they are auto destroyed is not supported by the rules, end of discussion.

Gwar! wrote:

puma713 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

And why would an entire army not be deployed turn 1, allowing someone to get flush with their board edge? Everyone being in reserve.

Edit: Can we leave YMDC in the YMDC forum? There's a reason I hardly ever go in there anymore.

And again, they are not in reserves at the end of the game, they made their reserve rolls, so they cannot be in reserves.

To claim they are auto destroyed is not supported by the rules, end of discussion.

puma713 wrote:If they're not in reserves and they're not deployed, where are they? According to the rulebook? Don't answer - it's hypothetical. Stop being obtuse.

Gwar! wrote:

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

If a unit is somehow still in RESERVES at the end of the game (for example, Deep Strike Mishap), then it counts as destroyed.

Nothing says that being prevented from deploying magically makes you destroyed.

evilsponge wrote:

whocares wrote:I like how their transport section specifically says that you can not take a transport for a squad too large for it to hold.

I didn't read about this yet. Why would they do this? Are you sure Gav and Jervis didn't team up to help write this one?

Hulksmash wrote:Pretty sure it says if a unit isn't deployed by the end of the game it counts as destroyed. Could be wrong or could be thinking of a different edition but that's how I thought it worked.

@Evilsponge

They aren't Space Marines, who can theoretically split to fit inside a smaller compacity vehicle. So they would obviously only be able to buy a transport to fit them. Pretty sure Ogryns in the IG book can only take a chimera if they are 6 or less.

lonekthx wrote:"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.

Gwar! wrote:

lonekthx wrote:"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.

-Sigh- You are not listening.

The Reserves rules FORCE you to place units on the table when they arrive from reserves, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for units that have made their reserves roll to not be on the table unless something explicitly stops them from being so (being Killed, Being put back into reserves etc).

Nothing says "if your edge is blocked, you are auto-killed."

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

Leggy wrote:I go up against mech guard about 3x more than any other army, so tankbusting is a priority. I can clean up the gooey innards with just about anything else in the list.
Not sold on reavers for anti-armour though. They're so fragile having them not turboboost would be very dependant on the battlefield. I much prefer the idea of them moving 3 foot every turn and harassing units with bladevanes and cluster caltrops, then racing to contest objectives at endgame.
To my eyes scourges are the fast attack tank hunters. Higher density of tankhunting weapons per squad and better saves.

puma713 wrote:Some more fine details from HERO's Gaming Blog here http://lkhero.blogspot.com/:

HERO wrote:...After looking at the Venom vs. Raider argument again, I took another long hard look at the two and came up with the following: Venoms aren't too bad. They're 55 points, so 5 less than a Raider but comes with some serious anti-infantry weaponry. They also come with Flickerfields so that's a free 5++ invulnerable. I would say these things are great anti-infantry paper-thin Razorbacks. They can replace their TL Splinter Rifles with another Splinter Cannon for 10 points so they can have 2. That's a total of 12 poisoned shots coming out from 36" while moving 6" because of Fast. For 65 points, you have a wound generator that can remain at max range and apply pressure to any infantry that gets blown out of their transports. Throw some cheap Wyches or Warriors in them and they act as pretty solid scoring transports that can put down a decent amount of hurt. I think when put into that perspective, their usefulness just increased by a lot.

In terms of Warriors, I think the idea configuration for them will be a Blaster and a Dark Lance. The Champion should probably take a Agnoizer for +20 or Power Weapon for +10 and call it a day. As for Wyches, I think the best loadout for them will be 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Champ with Phantasm Launcher and Agonizer. After thinking really hard about which one will generate more wounds; the Hydra Gauntlets or the Razorflails and I think the Hydra Gauntlets will probably offer more. The good thing about Wyches or Bloodbrides or is that you can put them in a Raider with Aethersails and just run them towards the enemy ASAP. Once they're locked in combat, their 4++ invulnerable will increase their chances to live by a lot and if you manage to give them FNP with some Pain Tokens then it's all good.

whocares wrote:

No, not reaver, raiders.

Your basic transport can move 12" and fire a dark lance.

And you can fit 9 of them in 1,000 points.

Leggy wrote:

whocares wrote:

No, not reaver, raiders.

Your basic transport can move 12" and fire a dark lance.

And you can fit 9 of them in 1,000 points.

Urgh, it was actually the word "blasters" i read as "reavers"

I actually agree about raiders, although I doubt i'll be buying 9.

Tailgunner wrote:

puma713 wrote:Some more fine details from HERO's Gaming Blog here http://lkhero.blogspot.com/:

HERO wrote:...After looking at the Venom vs. Raider argument again, I took another long hard look at the two and came up with the following: Venoms aren't too bad. They're 55 points, so 5 less than a Raider but comes with some serious anti-infantry weaponry. They also come with Flickerfields so that's a free 5++ invulnerable. I would say these things are great anti-infantry paper-thin Razorbacks. They can replace their TL Splinter Rifles with another Splinter Cannon for 10 points so they can have 2. That's a total of 12 poisoned shots coming out from 36" while moving 6" because of Fast. For 65 points, you have a wound generator that can remain at max range and apply pressure to any infantry that gets blown out of their transports. Throw some cheap Wyches or Warriors in them and they act as pretty solid scoring transports that can put down a decent amount of hurt. I think when put into that perspective, their usefulness just increased by a lot.

In terms of Warriors, I think the idea configuration for them will be a Blaster and a Dark Lance. The Champion should probably take a Agnoizer for +20 or Power Weapon for +10 and call it a day. As for Wyches, I think the best loadout for them will be 2x Hydra Gauntlets, Champ with Phantasm Launcher and Agonizer. After thinking really hard about which one will generate more wounds; the Hydra Gauntlets or the Razorflails and I think the Hydra Gauntlets will probably offer more. The good thing about Wyches or Bloodbrides or is that you can put them in a Raider with Aethersails and just run them towards the enemy ASAP. Once they're locked in combat, their 4++ invulnerable will increase their chances to live by a lot and if you manage to give them FNP with some Pain Tokens then it's all good.

Lol - 'Flickerfields'. Doesn't quite have the same ring as 'Shadow field', does it. It does sound as though Venom spam will replace Raider spam.

The ideal configuration for Warrior squads used to be a splinter cannon and a blaster. That made the squad very versatile. I may have missed it, but has the splinter cannon been re-jigged?

Gwar! wrote:

Leggy wrote:

whocares wrote:

No, not reaver, raiders.

Your basic transport can move 12" and fire a dark lance.

And you can fit 9 of them in 1,000 points.

Urgh, it was actually the word "blasters" i read as "reavers"

I actually agree about raiders, although I doubt i'll be buying 9.

Doesn't matter, all the REAL DE players have 12 already!

Leggy wrote:Any REAL real DE player would be replacing their ugly old raiders with the sexy new ones, mostly because the old ones broke off their flying stands 12 years ago (soon after he assembled them, in fact).
In fairness, I'm not a dedicated or obsessive deldar player, as they've had no love for so long. However I collected them as they first came out, so I'm claiming veteran status.

whocares wrote: are poison, and are therefore defensive weapons.

zeekill wrote:Hey quick question was the voidraven the one that can take 4 large blast one-shot weapons or was that the other vehicle that costs the same amount?

Ketara wrote:Use one of these as the VoidRaven Bomber perhaps?
[img]*snip pic*

puma713 wrote:Isn't the Void Phoenix huge though? I was thinking the size of wave serpents or, maybe a bit bigger in the vein of vendettas, but I would think that's a bit big for a skimmer.

Gwar! wrote:

lonekthx wrote:"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.

-Sigh- You are not listening.

The Reserves rules FORCE you to place units on the table when they arrive from reserves, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for units that have made their reserves roll to not be on the table unless something explicitly stops them from being so (being Killed, Being put back into reserves etc).

Nothing says "if your edge is blocked, you are auto-killed."

lonekthx wrote:You can't come on the board edge because you can't be within 1" of an enemy model, thus keeping you off the table. This doesn't work against vehicles or skimmers because they can either tank shock or fly right over, same with jump troops.

chaos0xomega wrote:You dont make gak up. If you can't bring them on the table, you can't bring them on the table. That means they are not deployed, but neither are they in reserve. As the rules state, if they are not on the table at the end of the game, they are destroyed.

SaintHazard wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You dont make gak up. If you can't bring them on the table, you can't bring them on the table. That means they are not deployed, but neither are they in reserve. As the rules state, if they are not on the table at the end of the game, they are destroyed.

Those two highlighted statements are nowhere at all in the rules. You just made gak up. It's a perfectly fine solution, but recognize it for what it is: a house rule.

puma713 wrote:

whocares wrote: are poison, and are therefore defensive weapons.

Huh?

Edit: Nevermind, I see what you're saying. You're saying since they're Str. X, they are defensive. However, I'm not sure that they are Str. X. When looking at the weapon profiles, I don't remember many X's and if everything is poison, there would have been a ton of them.

lonekthx wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

lonekthx wrote:"Page 90 BRB:

Wipeout! - Regardless of the victory conditions, if at the end of any standard mission your enemy has no units left on the table, you win the game!"

At the end of the game, this is understood as the units being destroyed for kill point purposes because the unit is not on the table, which is the same as if it were destroyed.

-Sigh- You are not listening.

The Reserves rules FORCE you to place units on the table when they arrive from reserves, so it is IMPOSSIBLE for units that have made their reserves roll to not be on the table unless something explicitly stops them from being so (being Killed, Being put back into reserves etc).

Nothing says "if your edge is blocked, you are auto-killed."

You can't come on the board edge because you can't be within 1" of an enemy model, thus keeping you off the table. This doesn't work against vehicles or skimmers because they can either tank shock or fly right over, same with jump troops.

SaintHazard wrote:

lonekthx wrote:You can't come on the board edge because you can't be within 1" of an enemy model, thus keeping you off the table. This doesn't work against vehicles or skimmers because they can either tank shock or fly right over, same with jump troops.

First of all, it doesn't work against tanks or skimmers. Vehicles without the "tank" type cannot tank shock. Also, you forgot jetbikes.

Second, you're missing the point - yes, you cannot move within 1" of an enemy model, but what happens if you cannot come in from reserve? Reserve rules force you to put the unit on the table. Enemy models lining the table edge will force you to NOT put the unit on the table. So you're simultaneously forced to put the unit on the table and not put the unit on the table. What happens? The rules don't give an answer, so you have to make gak up.

chaos0xomega wrote:You dont make gak up. If you can't bring them on the table, you can't bring them on the table. That means they are not deployed, but neither are they in reserve. As the rules state, if they are not on the table at the end of the game, they are destroyed.

puma713 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You dont make gak up. If you can't bring them on the table, you can't bring them on the table. That means they are not deployed, but neither are they in reserve. As the rules state, if they are not on the table at the end of the game, they are destroyed.

Those two highlighted statements are nowhere at all in the rules. You just made gak up. It's a perfectly fine solution, but recognize it for what it is: a house rule.

And recognize that there is no other way to play it than with such a "house rule".

zeekill wrote:So what exactly does Lady Malys do in close combat/shooting? I've heard for 130 pts you get the psychic immunity for her and her unit and the D3 units redeployment but what else can she do?

whocares wrote:

zeekill wrote:So what exactly does Lady Malys do in close combat/shooting? I've heard for 130 pts you get the psychic immunity for her and her unit and the D3 units redeployment but what else can she do?

Not...much.

You hit on the heart of that character.

Does anyone else think it's odd that the leader of the wych cult does not come with combat drugs?

whocares wrote:Does anyone else think it's odd that the leader of the wych cult does not come with combat drugs?

Gwar! wrote:

whocares wrote:Does anyone else think it's odd that the leader of the wych cult does not come with combat drugs?

It's not odd at all. She didn't have them in 3rd, because of GW Being pillocks and not wording it so she did, so they made a nod to the in-joke but not letting her use them this time round!

whocares wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

whocares wrote:Does anyone else think it's odd that the leader of the wych cult does not come with combat drugs?

It's not odd at all. She didn't have them in 3rd, because of GW Being pillocks and not wording it so she did, so they made a nod to the in-joke but not letting her use them this time round!

Yeah, I know she didn't have them in third.

But until somebody mentioned her fluff, I was just sitting here thinking they made the same mistake twice.

Reading that fluff is just painful. "Sweet fruit of horror." That's what? A kiwi?

Dracos wrote:Normally you are correct, but it entirely depends on the wording. Which is why I'm asking. I can't wait until I have a chance to go check it out for myself on thursday . Sucks to have to wait so long to take a copy home. I have been saying for a while I was waiting on DE release to start my 2nd army, and now that its here the month wait seems longer than the 6 months since I decided on them for my 2nd!

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

LunaHound wrote:

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

VoidRaven have nice weapons , but still expensive and fragile.

I prefer the veteran kabal armed with as much blaster as they can and throw them on a Raider.

Rymafyr wrote:Yes, let's look for holes in the rules to exploit before learning the rules. Nice.

Dracos wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Yes, let's look for holes in the rules to exploit before learning the rules. Nice.

Heh nice flame. I'm not looking for holes, I just got the impression they might work a certain way from how people described the wargear. Wondering how wargear works is hardly trying to exploit them.

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Jpr wrote:Does anyone know the maximum size for wych bloodbride units?

Rymafyr wrote:If I'm not mistaken, the Disintergrators are now basically just the one fire mode, same stats right? While the Blast template was nice for the Disintergrator in previous editions, I have a hard time having any love for blast templates in 5th.

I'd much rather, if I'm firing at troops, get a guaranteed 3 shots off, than having to deal w/ a blast template going off target. And now that Ravagers can move 12" and fire all weapons, that'd be 9 AP2 shots. Troops won't like that at all.

Rymafyr wrote:Against a hoard army, yeah...I can still see blast templates being worthy. Against MSU not a viable option.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

No, they aren't. The new rules are nowhere near related to the old ones.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

No, they aren't. The new rules are nowhere near related to the old ones.

Str 5, AP 2, heavy 3.

That doesn't suck for Termies?

Scottywan82 wrote:Oh and just for Gwar! It looks like the rules for Poisoned Shooting weapons are IN the Codex,a nd point out that the weapons count as Strength 1 for re-rolling to wound.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:Disintegrators will still have their place.

No they really won't :(

Really? They are crazy death to terminators.

No, they aren't. The new rules are nowhere near related to the old ones.

Str 5, AP 2, heavy 3.

That doesn't suck for Termies?

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

VoidRaven have nice weapons , but still expensive and fragile.

I prefer the veteran kabal armed with as much blaster as they can and throw them on a Raider.

You include other guys just as meatshields or no?

LunaHound wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

VoidRaven have nice weapons , but still expensive and fragile.

I prefer the veteran kabal armed with as much blaster as they can and throw them on a Raider.

You include other guys just as meatshields or no?

Generally if i have a dedicated transport with them , i dont take extras to be used as meat shields.
I see the transport as literally a shield. I would strike enemy units that i know i can annihilate without return fire ( if not , i send 2 units in )
and i use the bulk of the transport to block LOS from the rest of enemy army. ( though i never tried this with Dark Eldar so i dont know if they can shoot under the Raiders ^^; )

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Scottywan82 wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Leggy wrote:So to those who've read the codex, which would you say was the better choice for tank hunting, the voidraven or the ravager? From what I've read the void lances sound devastating, but you can get far more dark lances by spamming ravagers, and it'll end up cheaper.
Thoughts from the better informed?

VoidRaven have nice weapons , but still expensive and fragile.

I prefer the veteran kabal armed with as much blaster as they can and throw them on a Raider.

You include other guys just as meatshields or no?

Generally if i have a dedicated transport with them , i dont take extras to be used as meat shields.
I see the transport as literally a shield. I would strike enemy units that i know i can annihilate without return fire ( if not , i send 2 units in )
and i use the bulk of the transport to block LOS from the rest of enemy army. ( though i never tried this with Dark Eldar so i dont know if they can shoot under the Raiders ^^; )

TLOS says yeah.

Gwar! wrote:Reavers "Bladevanes" rule is a little unclear. It causes D3 hits per model, but doesn't explicitly state if it's D3*x hits or xD3 hits (where x ois the number of models), it just says D3 per model.

That being said, the Cluster Caltrops say that a model with them does D6 at a different Strength, so It implies that it might be xD3, though it could just as easily be (D3*x)+(D6*y). FAQ worth for sure I feel. It also happens in the movement phase, so the standard "How does this work at all" question needs to be addressed.

Another hint that it is xD3 however is the Gravtalon, which is a Bladevane that cause pinning if it causes a wound. Since it is used the same way as a bladevane, you would have to roll it separately, but again, you can argue that it becomes (D3*x)+(D6*y)+(D3*z). HerpDeDerp!

Gwar! wrote:To copypaste my post from my FAQ thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/296151.page#2018692

A Quick update, since I managed to get a look at the codex today for realsies and, despite what will need an FAQ, there is a lot that doesn't that would have needed to in the past.

For example, poison shooting weapons are indeed covered in the special rules (the special rule is even called "Poison Shooting Weapons"). I am shocked and appalled that GW would do such a thing! D:

Expect some TFGs arguing that Delfdars aren't fleet, since everything has "the Fleet special rule", not "the Fleet Universal Special Rule as detailed in the Warhammer 40k rulebook".

Wytches Dodge save has been explicitly fixed to apply ONLY to CC attacks, so no more arguments about scattering Blasts.

Reavers "Bladevanes" rule is a little unclear. It causes D3 hits per model, but doesn't explicitly state if it's D3*x hits or xD3 hits (where x ois the number of models), it just says D3 per model.

That being said, the Cluster Caltrops say that a model with them does D6 at a different Strength, so It implies that it might be xD3, though it could just as easily be (D3*x)+(D6*y). FAQ worth for sure I feel. It also happens in the movement phase, so the standard "How does this work at all" question needs to be addressed.

Another hint that it is xD3 however is the Gravtalon, which is a Bladevane that cause pinning if it causes a wound. Since it is used the same way as a bladevane, you would have to roll it separately, but again, you can argue that it becomes (D3*x)+(D6*y)+(D3*z). HerpDeDerp!

Beastmasters are a mess of rules sadly. Having checked the Power from Pain rule, it says "Whenever a Delfdar unit with PfP destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit" they get the Pain Token. Since not everyone has PfP in the unit, if there are any beasts, they cannot earn Pain Tokens on their own.

That being said, the rule then goes on to say "each pain token confers a special rule to the ENTIRE UNIT". Therefore, while the Beastmaster unit cannot earn Pain Tokens by themselves, if they have them, everyone in the unit benefits so long as one model with PfP is alive. Lots of FAQ stuff there.

Oh, and one of the beasts has "the Rending Special rule" (Zee Rule! SHE DOES NOZEENG!) -Le Sigh-

One of the Incubi "Exarch powers" gives him "Preferred Enemy" against an IC. PE on its own without a race doesn't actually do anything RaW.

Mandrakes don't seem to have any issues here, though the lack of an Armour save is disturbing. ;P

Razorwings seem to have no problems, but the Voidraven falls into the pit of calling a Blast Marker a template. Their Implosion Missile is NOT worded to be able to snipe models however, though a reminder will be added.

The Baron does indeed suffer from Useless Special Rule Syndrome (also known as Bjornitis), so a change to the Who goes first rule is needed. They did nip the Stealth Arguments in the bud by making him grant the stealth USR to any unit he is with while he is with them though.

I am once again shocked and appalled at GW clarifying what happens with Multiple WS with Lelith with regards to her extra attacks, as well as explicitly labeling them Bonus attacks (so she ends up getting 13 when she assaults Fire Warriors.

GW make you chuckle evilly when you place The Decapitator, (BUT FORGET TO DEFINE WHAT EVIL CHUCKLE MEANS OMFG!) but otherwise suffers from the poor Preferred enemy wording.

The Duke has a special rule that says he MUST be deployed with a unit of Warriors or Trueborn, but doesn't go into what happens if you don't have a unit of them in your army, nor does it explicitly require you to have one. It also doesn't explicitly tell you what happens to their upgraded poisons should he die or leave, but the wording seems to indicate they keep the bonus regardless of what happens to him.

As pointed out in another thread, a reminder that you cannot assault out of Raiders that Deep Strike via the Dukes special rule (as the Wargear explicitly forbids it, but the duke doesn't, despite it being forbidden by the main rules anyway).

Drahzah suffers from PheonixLordNotAbleToUseExarchPoweritis (fitting as he is rumored to be Arhra - "The fallen Phoenix" of the Striking Scorpions - in disguise. He also has a very odd rule that lets him move an unlimited distance at the beginning of any combat (that is, after all assault moves) he is in so long as he remains in BTB with the enemy and in coherency with his doods. Not sure how useful that is, but interesting nonetheless. A Reminder that it is indeed UNLIMITED MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

Lady Malys has the same issue as Khârn does, in that she (and her unit) are "completely immune" to psychic powers", with no indication if "Indirect powers" like Enhance, Sanguine Sword or Quickening are ignored also.

She also has a straight up Invul, not just in Close Combat, which might confuse people! D:

Her redeploying power says "after both sides have deployed" but doesn't make mention of where scout moves come into this. I would assume Before from the wording however.

Plasma Grenades don't work. Same reason as IG frags. Useless pillocks the lot of you! And you started off so well!

The CoM is still a nasty Wargear item, though I can't see how the enemy being in CC would be a problem. Need to clarify if it affects embarked Psykers of course (it does) and how it affects units with multiple psykers (each one takes a test! )

-Me goes to sleep then gets to work-

zeekill wrote:Gwar, I really, really don't mean to insult you, but why do you always look into things too much? RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, its like your favorite word/acronym ever.

"Incubi can't use their PE because it doesn't specify"
"Plasma Grenades don't work"
"The beast doesnt have rending because rending is not a special rule"
"They have the fleet "special rule" not the fleet "USR" so they can't actually fleet"

Are you serious? Do you go to a GW from hell where everyone tries to cheat with their little "RAW" arguments? Clearly the Incubi get the PE against the character. Clearly plasma grenades are assult grenades that follow the rules for such from the BRB. Clearly the beast has rending for his close combat attacks. And most clearliest () of all, anything that has the Fleet "special rule" obviously means that it has the fleet "USR".

From that argument about destroyed if you can't deploy you made a valid point, that it is not specified exactly what happens and so you make it up (and 90% of the time that house ruling will be "destroyed" either because it makes sence or because that is what most, if not all tournaments rule). But this is just rediculous.

Sorry for ranting.

Gwar! wrote:Their Implosion Missile is NOT worded to be able to snipe models however, though a reminder will be added.

Scottywan82 wrote:A Quick update, since I managed to get a look at the codex today for realsies and, despite what will need an FAQ, there is a lot that doesn't that would have needed to in the past.

For example, poison shooting weapons are indeed covered in the special rules (the special rule is even called "Poison Shooting Weapons"). I am shocked and appalled that GW would do such a thing! D:

Joy!

Expect some TFGs arguing that Delfdars aren't fleet, since everything has "the Fleet special rule", not "the Fleet Universal Special Rule as detailed in the Warhammer 40k rulebook".

I hitsz them in tha face.

Wytches Dodge save has been explicitly fixed to apply ONLY to CC attacks, so no more arguments about scattering Blasts.

Reavers "Bladevanes" rule is a little unclear. It causes D3 hits per model, but doesn't explicitly state if it's D3*x hits or xD3 hits (where x ois the number of models), it just says D3 per model.

That being said, the Cluster Caltrops say that a model with them does D6 at a different Strength, so It implies that it might be xD3, though it could just as easily be (D3*x)+(D6*y). FAQ worth for sure I feel. It also happens in the movement phase, so the standard "How does this work at all" question needs to be addressed.

Another hint that it is xD3 however is the Gravtalon, which is a Bladevane that cause pinning if it causes a wound. Since it is used the same way as a bladevane, you would have to roll it separately, but again, you can argue that it becomes (D3*x)+(D6*y)+(D3*z). HerpDeDerp!

Hmmm.... Each model seems to imply rolling a D3 per model... I suppose an FAQ would be helpful, but I'm not sure necessary.

Beastmasters are a mess of rules sadly. Having checked the Power from Pain rule, it says "Whenever a Delfdar unit with PfP destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit" they get the Pain Token. Since not everyone has PfP in the unit, if there are any beasts, they cannot earn Pain Tokens on their own.

That being said, the rule then goes on to say "each pain token confers a special rule to the ENTIRE UNIT". Therefore, while the Beastmaster unit cannot earn Pain Tokens by themselves, if they have them, everyone in the unit benefits so long as one model with PfP is alive. Lots of FAQ stuff there.

Oh, and one of the beasts has "the Rending Special rule" (Zee Rule! SHE DOES NOZEENG!) -Le Sigh-

Seriously? Rending special rule does nothing? Come on now...

One of the Incubi "Exarch powers" gives him "Preferred Enemy" against an IC. PE on its own without a race doesn't actually do anything RaW.

So does Preferred Enemy Infantry not do anything either? After all, Infantry isn't a race.

Mandrakes don't seem to have any issues here, though the lack of an Armour save is disturbing. ;P

Invulnerable save FTW!

Razorwings seem to have no problems, but the Voidraven falls into the pit of calling a Blast Marker a template. Their Implosion Missile is NOT worded to be able to snipe models however, though a reminder will be added.

The Baron does indeed suffer from Useless Special Rule Syndrome (also known as Bjornitis), so a change to the Who goes first rule is needed. They did nip the Stealth Arguments in the bud by making him grant the stealth USR to any unit he is with while he is with them though.

You know in law they have rules about "a reasonable person." I think you might need to borrow those.

I am once again shocked and appalled at GW clarifying what happens with Multiple WS with Lelith with regards to her extra attacks, as well as explicitly labeling them Bonus attacks (so she ends up getting 13 when she assaults Fire Warriors.

GW make you chuckle evilly when you place The Decapitator, (BUT FORGET TO DEFINE WHAT EVIL CHUCKLE MEANS OMFG!) but otherwise suffers from the poor Preferred enemy wording.

The Duke has a special rule that says he MUST be deployed with a unit of Warriors or Trueborn, but doesn't go into what happens if you don't have a unit of them in your army, nor does it explicitly require you to have one. It also doesn't explicitly tell you what happens to their upgraded poisons should he die or leave, but the wording seems to indicate they keep the bonus regardless of what happens to him.

As pointed out in another thread, a reminder that you cannot assault out of Raiders that Deep Strike via the Dukes special rule (as the Wargear explicitly forbids it, but the duke doesn't, despite it being forbidden by the main rules anyway).

Drahzah suffers from PheonixLordNotAbleToUseExarchPoweritis (fitting as he is rumored to be Arhra - "The fallen Phoenix" of the Striking Scorpions - in disguise. He also has a very odd rule that lets him move an unlimited distance at the beginning of any combat (that is, after all assault moves) he is in so long as he remains in BTB with the enemy and in coherency with his doods. Not sure how useful that is, but interesting nonetheless. A Reminder that it is indeed UNLIMITED MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

Lady Malys has the same issue as Khârn does, in that she (and her unit) are "completely immune" to psychic powers", with no indication if "Indirect powers" like Enhance, Sanguine Sword or Quickening are ignored also.

Good call.

She also has a straight up Invul, not just in Close Combat, which might confuse people! D:

Her redeploying power says "after both sides have deployed" but doesn't make mention of where scout moves come into this. I would assume Before from the wording however.

Good call again.

Plasma Grenades don't work. Same reason as IG frags. Useless pillocks the lot of you! And you started off so well!

You're backsliding here...

The CoM is still a nasty Wargear item, though I can't see how the enemy being in CC would be a problem. Need to clarify if it affects embarked Psykers of course (it does) and how it affects units with multiple psykers (each one takes a test! )

Again, hadn't caught that! lol, Amusing...

airmang wrote:

Gwar! wrote:Their Implosion Missile is NOT worded to be able to snipe models however, though a reminder will be added.

I'm not sure i follow you on this one. I've read the Implosion missle rules a dozen times now and it's worded very similar to JAWWS. ie models hit must take an Initiative/Wounds characteristic test. Now I'm all for not having more characteristic tests causing instant death, especially from shooting attacks (I play Nids...), but I'm not sure how the wording for the Implosion Missle doesn't make just the models hit take the test.

Farmer wrote:Nice, you still mirin those nerfed weapons?.

Scottywan82 wrote:Okay, some RIDICULOUS stuff:

First off - Vect CAN have the Archon's Court, but the court says NOTHING about being a retinue, so can they jump on his Dais? The rule for his Dais states that it must carry 9 other figures besides Vect. That's IN the rule. As is the words "dedicated transport." But It seems pretty clear, regardless.

Mandrakes still suck, but they suck with a 5+ invul save.

Cronos and Talos - Both have Power Through Pain! And they are monsters, not armor, so they can use the tokens and get FNP and Furious Charge.

Hot stuff!

I cannot find the rule for Sathonyx that gives him an automatic ability to pull an IC out of combat. I also do not see where he makes Hellions Troops.

NOT SAYING THEY AREN'T THERE - just can't find them.

Also, Slicius is pretty sick, giving all Raiders, Ravagers and Venoms Deep Strike.

Oh and just for Gwar! It looks like the rules for Poisoned Shooting weapons are IN the Codex,a nd point out that the weapons count as Strength 1 for re-rolling to wound.

Just for you, sir.

zeekill wrote:

Gwar! wrote:To copypaste my post from my FAQ thread here:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/296151.page#2018692

A Quick update, since I managed to get a look at the codex today for realsies and, despite what will need an FAQ, there is a lot that doesn't that would have needed to in the past.

For example, poison shooting weapons are indeed covered in the special rules (the special rule is even called "Poison Shooting Weapons"). I am shocked and appalled that GW would do such a thing! D:

Expect some TFGs arguing that Delfdars aren't fleet, since everything has "the Fleet special rule", not "the Fleet Universal Special Rule as detailed in the Warhammer 40k rulebook".

Wytches Dodge save has been explicitly fixed to apply ONLY to CC attacks, so no more arguments about scattering Blasts.

Reavers "Bladevanes" rule is a little unclear. It causes D3 hits per model, but doesn't explicitly state if it's D3*x hits or xD3 hits (where x ois the number of models), it just says D3 per model.

That being said, the Cluster Caltrops say that a model with them does D6 at a different Strength, so It implies that it might be xD3, though it could just as easily be (D3*x)+(D6*y). FAQ worth for sure I feel. It also happens in the movement phase, so the standard "How does this work at all" question needs to be addressed.

Another hint that it is xD3 however is the Gravtalon, which is a Bladevane that cause pinning if it causes a wound. Since it is used the same way as a bladevane, you would have to roll it separately, but again, you can argue that it becomes (D3*x)+(D6*y)+(D3*z). HerpDeDerp!

Beastmasters are a mess of rules sadly. Having checked the Power from Pain rule, it says "Whenever a Delfdar unit with PfP destroys a non-vehicle enemy unit" they get the Pain Token. Since not everyone has PfP in the unit, if there are any beasts, they cannot earn Pain Tokens on their own.

That being said, the rule then goes on to say "each pain token confers a special rule to the ENTIRE UNIT". Therefore, while the Beastmaster unit cannot earn Pain Tokens by themselves, if they have them, everyone in the unit benefits so long as one model with PfP is alive. Lots of FAQ stuff there.

Oh, and one of the beasts has "the Rending Special rule" (Zee Rule! SHE DOES NOZEENG!) -Le Sigh-

One of the Incubi "Exarch powers" gives him "Preferred Enemy" against an IC. PE on its own without a race doesn't actually do anything RaW.

Mandrakes don't seem to have any issues here, though the lack of an Armour save is disturbing. ;P

Razorwings seem to have no problems, but the Voidraven falls into the pit of calling a Blast Marker a template. Their Implosion Missile is NOT worded to be able to snipe models however, though a reminder will be added.

The Baron does indeed suffer from Useless Special Rule Syndrome (also known as Bjornitis), so a change to the Who goes first rule is needed. They did nip the Stealth Arguments in the bud by making him grant the stealth USR to any unit he is with while he is with them though.

I am once again shocked and appalled at GW clarifying what happens with Multiple WS with Lelith with regards to her extra attacks, as well as explicitly labeling them Bonus attacks (so she ends up getting 13 when she assaults Fire Warriors.

GW make you chuckle evilly when you place The Decapitator, (BUT FORGET TO DEFINE WHAT EVIL CHUCKLE MEANS OMFG!) but otherwise suffers from the poor Preferred enemy wording.

The Duke has a special rule that says he MUST be deployed with a unit of Warriors or Trueborn, but doesn't go into what happens if you don't have a unit of them in your army, nor does it explicitly require you to have one. It also doesn't explicitly tell you what happens to their upgraded poisons should he die or leave, but the wording seems to indicate they keep the bonus regardless of what happens to him.

As pointed out in another thread, a reminder that you cannot assault out of Raiders that Deep Strike via the Dukes special rule (as the Wargear explicitly forbids it, but the duke doesn't, despite it being forbidden by the main rules anyway).

Drahzah suffers from PheonixLordNotAbleToUseExarchPoweritis (fitting as he is rumored to be Arhra - "The fallen Phoenix" of the Striking Scorpions - in disguise. He also has a very odd rule that lets him move an unlimited distance at the beginning of any combat (that is, after all assault moves) he is in so long as he remains in BTB with the enemy and in coherency with his doods. Not sure how useful that is, but interesting nonetheless. A Reminder that it is indeed UNLIMITED MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

Lady Malys has the same issue as Khârn does, in that she (and her unit) are "completely immune" to psychic powers", with no indication if "Indirect powers" like Enhance, Sanguine Sword or Quickening are ignored also.

She also has a straight up Invul, not just in Close Combat, which might confuse people! D:

Her redeploying power says "after both sides have deployed" but doesn't make mention of where scout moves come into this. I would assume Before from the wording however.

Plasma Grenades don't work. Same reason as IG frags. Useless pillocks the lot of you! And you started off so well!

The CoM is still a nasty Wargear item, though I can't see how the enemy being in CC would be a problem. Need to clarify if it affects embarked Psykers of course (it does) and how it affects units with multiple psykers (each one takes a test! )

-Me goes to sleep then gets to work-

Gwar, I really, really don't mean to insult you, but why do you always look into things too much? RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, RAW, its like your favorite word/acronym ever.

"Incubi can't use their PE because it doesn't specify"
"Plasma Grenades don't work"
"The beast doesnt have rending because rending is not a special rule"
"They have the fleet "special rule" not the fleet "USR" so they can't actually fleet"

Are you serious? Do you go to a GW from hell where everyone tries to cheat with their little "RAW" arguments? Clearly the Incubi get the PE against the character. Clearly plasma grenades are assult grenades that follow the rules for such from the BRB. Clearly the beast has rending for his close combat attacks. And most clearliest () of all, anything that has the Fleet "special rule" obviously means that it has the fleet "USR".

From that argument about destroyed if you can't deploy you made a valid point, that it is not specified exactly what happens and so you make it up (and 90% of the time that house ruling will be "destroyed" either because it makes sence or because that is what most, if not all tournaments rule). But this is just rediculous.

Sorry for ranting.

Defiler wrote:
Often times, his "expert" rulings are also wrong.

Gwar! wrote:]If all this were clear, then I wouldn't have made the observations that I did. The very fact I made those observations proves they are NOT clear. No matter how you twist it, I am in the Right, Rule as Written. Does it suck? Yes, it does. It sucks massively. However, rules are there for a reason, and if you don't intend to follow them, why bother playing the game at all?

greenbay924 wrote: but there will be some d-bags out there trying to exploit it.

Gwar! wrote:
One of the Incubi "Exarch powers" gives him "Preferred Enemy" against an IC. PE on its own without a race doesn't actually do anything RaW.

Gwar! wrote:It uses the blast rules, so the hits can be allocated anywhere within the squad, the same way that you can't use a Frag Missile to snipe the IC in a unit.

Defiler wrote:

Gwar! wrote:[SNIP!]

I don't think GWAR actually plays the game, and spends more time trying to generate a cult of personality online as a rules expert to compensate for something missing in his life rather than playing the game.

Scottywan82 wrote:

Farmer wrote:Nice, you still mirin those nerfed weapons?.

Your what hurts?

Scottywan82 wrote:
Drahzah suffers from PheonixLordNotAbleToUseExarchPoweritis (fitting as he is rumored to be Arhra - "The fallen Phoenix" of the Striking Scorpions - in disguise. He also has a very odd rule that lets him move an unlimited distance at the beginning of any combat (that is, after all assault moves) he is in so long as he remains in BTB with the enemy and in coherency with his doods. Not sure how useful that is, but interesting nonetheless. A Reminder that it is indeed UNLIMITED MOVEMENT!!!!!!!!

Oshova wrote:Since when did SCs get to allocate their own wounds? Any unit or model can assign HITS to a UNIT they're in base to base combat with. The controlling player can then allocate WOUNDS to upgrades if they so wish.

Oshova

Rymafyr wrote:It's possible I'm wrong. But it was my understanding IC's and SC's could assign all their wounds to a specific model they are in BtB with. Personally I like to spread the love amongst a unit so if I'm wrong it's not significant, as I've never actually done that to begin with.

Yeah, a matter of somantics really. I use 'hits' interchangeably.

chaos0xomega wrote:Drazhar has the ability to reposition himself in any combat he is in so long as he maintains BtB with the enemy and within 2" of the unit of Incubi he is attached to. It's not unlimited, since you can only have 10 Incubi in a squad, so at best you would get about 8" out of the deal, maybe 12" if you positioned your minis just perfectly.

ChrisCP wrote:

Defiler wrote:
Often times, his "expert" rulings are also wrong.

Often aye, care to provide an example off-hand to support your claim?

Defiler wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Defiler wrote:
Often times, his "expert" rulings are also wrong.

Often aye, care to provide an example off-hand to support your claim?

Most of the above?

I've had him on ignore for quite a long time, so I'm not wasting my time digging up his errors.

SaintHazard wrote:

Oshova wrote:Since when did SCs get to allocate their own wounds? Any unit or model can assign HITS to a UNIT they're in base to base combat with. The controlling player can then allocate WOUNDS to upgrades if they so wish.

Oshova

Actually, they get to assign their attacks.

You were on the right track, but needed to move one more step back.

Farmer wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Drazhar has the ability to reposition himself in any combat he is in so long as he maintains BtB with the enemy and within 2" of the unit of Incubi he is attached to. It's not unlimited, since you can only have 10 Incubi in a squad, so at best you would get about 8" out of the deal, maybe 12" if you positioned your minis just perfectly.

Cool, for a minute there i thought he said unlimited movement as in can move anywhere on the board.

SaintHazard wrote:

Defiler wrote:
Most of the above?

I've had him on ignore for quite a long time, so I'm not wasting my time digging up his errors.

That's not an example to support your claim.

Because there are no examples to support your claim.

DarknessEternal wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

Defiler wrote:
Most of the above?

I've had him on ignore for quite a long time, so I'm not wasting my time digging up his errors.

That's not an example to support your claim.

Because there are no examples to support your claim.

Gwar doesn't need you white knighting for him.

Also, he's definitely wrong about Preferred Enemy as I already pointed out.

greenbay924 wrote:I'm really rusty on 40k rules, but I'm pretty sure if a vehicle moves over 6" no one inside can fire, though I could be wrong for fast vehicles.

SaintHazard wrote:

Defiler wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:

Defiler wrote:
Often times, his "expert" rulings are also wrong.

Often aye, care to provide an example off-hand to support your claim?

Most of the above?

I've had him on ignore for quite a long time, so I'm not wasting my time digging up his errors.

That's not an example to support your claim.

Because there are no examples to support your claim.

Because for some reason you're bitter, and want to rag on Gwar!, and there's nothing more to it than that.

Sounds about right.

However, rules are there for a reason, and if you don't intend to follow them, why bother playing the game at all?

Phototoxin wrote:GW games do not provide this and rightly so as they largely are not in favour (or cannot be ars*d) to define rules so specifically, favouring the casual fun player over the RAW tourney player.

ChrisCP wrote:As some who would like to be able to play "40k" against 'anyone' the existence of this 'free form and flowing' (see 'rigid and highly specific') rules set to be nothing but an obstcle to this, eg I could play MTG against someone with whom I did not share a common language - with no issues - ever - Chances in 40K?......

Rymafyr wrote:While I can appreciate the amount of work everyone does to streamline the rules with their own FAQ's, especially Gwar, and those who work on the INAT, when you boil it down they're all just 'house' rules. That is until verified or discounted by GW.

Rymafyr wrote:Given the lack of consistency, and clarity of the rules in 40k I don't begrudge anyone taking the mantle of trying to understand those rules better to facilitate games going smoothly and to reduce conflict. I think there is the perception that the ones doing the task of clarifying the rules set themselves up as 'elitists'. Sad if true and moreso if unfounded.

SaintHazard wrote:

Rymafyr wrote:While I can appreciate the amount of work everyone does to streamline the rules with their own FAQ's, especially Gwar, and those who work on the INAT, when you boil it down they're all just 'house' rules. That is until verified or discounted by GW.

Well, of course. Problem is, GW's FAQs, nine times out of ten, either confuse the issue further or answer a question that never existed because the rules were already clear. INAT isn't much better. That's why I put zero stock in either of them. Frankly, they suck.

Rymafyr wrote:Given the lack of consistency, and clarity of the rules in 40k I don't begrudge anyone taking the mantle of trying to understand those rules better to facilitate games going smoothly and to reduce conflict. I think there is the perception that the ones doing the task of clarifying the rules set themselves up as 'elitists'. Sad if true and moreso if unfounded.

Have Gwar! or I ever said "I am better than you" because we try to distill poorly written rules?

SaintHazard wrote:Because it's a standard.

asimo77 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Because it's a standard.

But wouldn't you say that the standard is flawed, so why then stick to it so closely when in theory you could make a much smoother sytem?

SaintHazard wrote:

asimo77 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Because it's a standard.

But wouldn't you say that the standard is flawed, so why then stick to it so closely when in theory you could make a much smoother sytem?

You could, yes, but GW is not willing to do so.

As for each individual person trying to streamline the system, that leads to multiple interpretations, rules changes, re-interpretations, more issues, more interpretations, and before you know it every single FLGS has radically different rules.

Again, sticking to the rules as closely as possible creates a standard. Every single schmuck out there with a rulebook and a tape measure attempting to fix the rules does the exact opposite.

SaintHazard wrote:

asimo77 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Because it's a standard.

But wouldn't you say that the standard is flawed, so why then stick to it so closely when in theory you could make a much smoother sytem?

You could, yes, but GW is not willing to do so.

As for each individual person trying to streamline the system, that leads to multiple interpretations, rules changes, re-interpretations, more issues, more interpretations, and before you know it every single FLGS has radically different rules.

Again, sticking to the rules as closely as possible creates a standard. Every single schmuck out there with a rulebook and a tape measure attempting to fix the rules does the exact opposite.

Badger wrote:ChrisCP:
"....against someone with whom I did not share a common language - with no issues - ever - Chances in 40K?...... "

ever heard of an event called ETC (european team championship)?

i have watched a game between 2 different nation 40k players (one of them couldnt speak english [not a single word other then "yes" and "no"]) they both didnt talk at all!!!

and had a fun game without any differences...

its all about your behavior (and that of your opponent).

greetings Badger

Xca|iber wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:

asimo77 wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Because it's a standard.

But wouldn't you say that the standard is flawed, so why then stick to it so closely when in theory you could make a much smoother sytem?

You could, yes, but GW is not willing to do so.

As for each individual person trying to streamline the system, that leads to multiple interpretations, rules changes, re-interpretations, more issues, more interpretations, and before you know it every single FLGS has radically different rules.

Again, sticking to the rules as closely as possible creates a standard. Every single schmuck out there with a rulebook and a tape measure attempting to fix the rules does the exact opposite.

QFT.

"Fixing" everything is a terribly slippery slope that can quickly lead to accusations of "bending the rules" and outright "cheating."

For example, I always make sure people are okay with me assaulting out of moving BT Land Raiders - a complete and utter house rule. Most people have no problem with this, and everyone's happy. But I could just as easily justify giving my marines 3++ storm shields, which in my mind is cheating. The codex wasn't balanced around having 3++ shields, so I have units that can get them for less than 5pts a model, and on a Furious Charge Assault Terminator squad, they would be OTT if I build the squad in the right proportions.

My general rule of thumb is "don't house rule anything unless - through experience or extreme common sense - it seems absolutely necessary, and carefully weigh the effect of the rule with the rest of the game."

HERO wrote:Can we got back to talking about DE?

I find the last couple of pages to be a complete waste of time.

Anyways, what does everyone think about Voidravens vs. Ravagers as a Heavy support choice?

I see myself bringing 3 Voidravens everytime. Is there any counter-arguments otherwise?

HERO wrote:
Incubii vs. Harlequins

Luthon1234 wrote:I think the void raven will be a nice addition instead of a third ravager. Their really not that expensive but you wouldn't want to run more than 1 or possibly 2.

Lexx wrote:Very much agree that Incubi being cheaper and more effective makes them the choice over harlequins. And the void-raven is fine if you've already got some ravagers fielded.

asimo77 wrote:Well there's Shrike...

Luthon1234 wrote:

asimo77 wrote:Well there's Shrike...

well not to be a jerk but I did say they were one of the few ELDAR, that had a 3+ save with fleet.

Oshova wrote:It used to be that way in the Dark Eldar codex, anyone with a save too good didn't get fleet. So maybe this is a sign that when Eldar get redone (with awesome new bikes) more units will be getting fleet. OMG fleeting Scorpions!!!

Oshova

Oshova wrote:OMG fleeting Scorpions!!!

DarknessEternal wrote:

Oshova wrote:OMG fleeting Scorpions!!!

Fleet Infiltrators are problematic.

asimo77 wrote:What do you mean by that? Do the models riding have to actually be standing inside it?

Lexx wrote:Yeah its very interesting like that Gwar. No transport loans between units I guess now!

Gwar! wrote:

Lexx wrote:Yeah its very interesting like that Gwar. No transport loans between units I guess now!

Loans are just fine, nothing stops other units using them (ala Witch Hunters).

What you can't do is take 20 Warriors and have a Venom go off and transport something else, you have to take 6 Warriors. D:

Still, I can see Trueborn being used as Melta Vets really. 4 of them with Blasters, Haywires and a Venom with Nightshields is only 181 points.

Just Dave wrote:I think it should not be under-estimated that Harlequins can(?) now embark upon a transport. Although not their own, this will significantly help them I expect...

Gwar! wrote:What you can't do is take 20 Warriors and have a Venom go off and transport something else, you have to take 6 Warriors. D:

whocares wrote:

Gwar! wrote:What you can't do is take 20 Warriors and have a Venom go off and transport something else, you have to take 6 Warriors. D:

Five. :(

Skarboy wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think it should not be under-estimated that Harlequins can(?) now embark upon a transport. Although not their own, this will significantly help them I expect...

Harlequins could always use transports, they just can't buy their own dedicated transports (same as in Craftworld Eldar). This is why people complain, as there's really no reason they shouldn't have the option for a DT. I can see those folks who want to give them transports having their Trueborn or Kabalite Warrior squads that have Dark Lances give theirs up for the Harlies while they bunker up in cover. It's not that hard to achieve, just an annoying oversight/omittance.

Shep wrote:Just played a very fun and very informative game against the new DE with my mech IG.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/323069.page#2033589

Might be useful to add to the discussion.

zeekill wrote:Here is a quick question. If an Archon has a huskblade, does the retinue guy still give him Poison (2+)?

Gwar! wrote:

zeekill wrote:Here is a quick question. If an Archon has a huskblade, does the retinue guy still give him Poison (2+)?

No, because the Huskblade isn't a poison weapon and the Lhamaeans only improve Poisoned weapons.

Oshova wrote:The thing I see Warriors doing is holding objective. Although Wracks might be tougher to kill in my view, they need to be getting into combat. Warriors will happily sit on an objective all day long shooting anything that comes within line of sight.

Oshova

Just Dave wrote:Well, as a glass hammer, it is always good to have some units that don't rely on CC should you face opponents better at it than you (eg. Blood Angels), hence warriors can provide good support.
Also, they can provide valuable anti-infantry (unlike the constant Dark Lances), particularly when their Raider has the upgrade which benefits shooting from it.
However, I do also see 5 in a venom as the best choice. I think it would make a solid support unit alongside your tougher units...

SaintHazard wrote:Question is, how expensive is that unit?

Gwar! wrote:

SaintHazard wrote:Question is, how expensive is that unit?

210 for the Beastmasters and Razorwings, +100 for 2 naked Hæmonculi.

Magnalon wrote:So is Vect able to disembark from his Dais, and run around as a SC as normal?

If so, that makes the points cost not SO terrible.

Rymafyr wrote:My typically fielded HQ:

Archon w/ pistol, Shadowfield, Combat Drugs, Agoniser w/ a 10 Man Incubi retinue mounted on a raider is about 411 pts. What's the new Vect cost?

Luthon1234 wrote:I have a question for you guys, now I obviously don't have the codex ready but from what I understand vect's raider for all intent is a raider. Does this mean that it only has a BS of 4 and that it does NOT have the rules for a Ravager?

Luthon1234 wrote:I have a question for you guys, now I obviously don't have the codex ready but from what I understand vect's raider for all intent is a raider. Does this mean that it only has a BS of 4 and that it does NOT have the rules for a Ravager?

Gwar! wrote:

Luthon1234 wrote:I have a question for you guys, now I obviously don't have the codex ready but from what I understand vect's raider for all intent is a raider. Does this mean that it only has a BS of 4 and that it does NOT have the rules for a Ravager?

Oh gee, ONLY a BS of 4.

Yes, it is simply a AV13 Raider with 3 DL instead of 1, and you must have 9 doods in with Vect at the start.

Luthon1234 wrote:

Gwar! wrote:

Luthon1234 wrote:I have a question for you guys, now I obviously don't have the codex ready but from what I understand vect's raider for all intent is a raider. Does this mean that it only has a BS of 4 and that it does NOT have the rules for a Ravager?

Oh gee, ONLY a BS of 4.

Yes, it is simply a AV13 Raider with 3 DL instead of 1, and you must have 9 doods in with Vect at the start.

Well it is a big difference when it used to be BS 7 AV 14 and less than half the cost it would be if you took it now. Another question, you must field it with 9 other models, can this be anything or do you have to use the Court? Regardless my pimp raider will be staying home, not that I won't bring vect but his raider ain't that great now.

Gwar! wrote:All I have to say to that is:
5 Beastmasters,
10 Flockwings

60 Rending + 10 Normal Attacks.

Throw in 2 Haemonculi For Lulz and you have Furious Charge.

And then a WWP.

-Droooooool-

Skarboy wrote:

Gwar! wrote:All I have to say to that is:
5 Beastmasters,
10 Flockwings

60 Rending + 10 Normal Attacks.

Throw in 2 Haemonculi For Lulz and you have Furious Charge.

And then a WWP.

-Droooooool-

Each beastmaster can take an Agonizer as well if you really want to have fun...

Nulipuli2 wrote:Only 1 Beastmaster may change his weapon in the squad

airmang wrote:It's 2 Razorwing Flocks per Beastmaster.

Gwar! wrote:Nope, neither the Archon nor the Succubus can take jetbikes anymore.

kanelom wrote:ok so this is a bit remote to rules discussion, but...

For models that would settle as warp beasts, something like the Warriors of chaos hounds could be used right without any conversion? As there is no overlapping from the fantasy - 40k range? But what about using Chaos Spawn as the Clawed Fiend? Is it allowed to just use a model from another team to represent it like that?

WYSIWYG?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
*also, on the side, howd this go for a haemy conversion？ What you think?

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440102a&prodId=prod1050096