JohnHwangDD wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:Power weapons for all normal GK? IDK but that seems too good to be true. I'd like to see a particular squad with all power weapons - maybe a jump pack squad with just the power weapon and no storm bolter?

if GK get more unit types, how would you fit them all into one army if the points are so high?

I'd like to see the points stay the same, no real new Grey Knight units, just a drop in the cost of weapons - say make psycannons 5 points instead of 25 points

If they end up being the new uber marines, then I'll just be accused of choosing the best army and jumping on the bandwagon :(

so long as I can play a truly GK only army and have to use my head to work out how to beat my opponent rather than just fielding near unbeatable units, then I'll be happy - I certainly don't care for conscripts or stormtroopers at all.

While the SBs give some ranged fire, GKs are inherently assault troops, with their NFWs. Giving them JPs would fit very well, no need to pull the SB, but an integral BP to guarantee an extra attack would be nice way to differentiate the sloggers from the JPs.

Assuming 27 pts per AA GK, and JP GKs, 1500 pts would fit:
* 1 HQ (150),
* 5 GKTs (275),
* 2x 10 AA GKs (275 ea),
* 5 JP GKs (175), a
* a GK Dread (150) and
* 5 AA GK Heavies (200).
It's about the same as what GKs have today. For 2000, just add 2 Land Raiders, or more dudes, to use the points.

I think it's a given that Heavy weapons will be cheaper, now that 40k isn't built around stand-and-shoot, with a comensurate premium on Heavy weapons.

If you field all old models, there won't be any accusation of that!

I think you'll be able to do that just fine. You'll probably have more tools at your disposal, even without Inquisition stuff. Tho some of us are really looking forward to an expanded Inquisition army.

I was thinking that giving a squad of normal GKs, albeit with jump packs power weapons would be too good, hence the idea to drop the SB. i did think of a bolt pistol but seriously, would a squad of jump pack GKs, ALL with power weapons not be too good? I was hoping really that a squad like this would add more tactical flexibility to GKs if they made the purgation squad the GK version of the devastator squad. Then you'd have normal GKs, a highly mobile CC squad and a stand off and rain down hell upon your opponent squad.

The problem I see with a CC squad is how horrendously strong S5 or S6 powerweapons are.

I have never seen GK as an assualt army, yes, they are far above average in an assault, but being I4 they suffer against any elite close combat troops. If they are becoming so much tougher and assaulty, I imagine GK being leading the charge being given support fire by I troops, as opposed to the opposite (expensive gk's giving range support to lots of fodder)

ColdSadHungry wrote:I was thinking that giving a squad of normal GKs, albeit with jump packs power weapons would be too good, hence the idea to drop the SB. i did think of a bolt pistol but seriously, would a squad of jump pack GKs, ALL with power weapons not be too good?

You mean like how Howling Banshees or Necron Pariahs are "too good"? Or Possessed (1/6 of the time)? No, not really worried about it any more than a squad of guys all armed with Heavy Weapons (i.e. Dark Reapers, Obliterators) is "too good".

At 30 pts, S5+ PWs with JPs will be good, but you'll still need to deliver them, and they're not cheap!

Personally, rather than jump packs, I'd like to see a Warp Spider type teleport movement. But I doubt that'll happen...

Melissia wrote:Personally, rather than jump packs, I'd like to see a Warp Spider type teleport movement. But I doubt that'll happen...

This but because it'd be imperial tech the rules would probably change from 'lose one model' when that happens due to the teleport movement to 'the entire squad dies in a horrible and gruesome way!' and the rules will say you have to make screaming death noises to show just how bad it is...

Yeah lets give Grey Knights jump packs. You know what they should do, they should put them in Troop with Jump Packs and Meltaguns and Mephisto should be able to cast a spell on them. Oh wait thats Blood Angels nevermind.

When you say "Chaos Cult Marines", it appears you're talking about Chaos Marines as a whole Codex. GKs will get the SRG, at a minimum, with Vendetta support being very likely on the Inquisition side of the Codex. The supposed inherited weakness is being addressed.

OTOH, if you look at a pure Chaos Cult Marine army, a la Legions, then the choices shrink in a similar way to a pure GK army, and those weaknesses are inherent in the player's choice, yes?

I see your point.
But I do not agree that this is true for pure GK armies, there the previous inherited weakness can very well still be true.
We simply dont know enough about how different HW choices will affect the overal army composition and thus the inbuilt weaknesses and therefore the excuse to price the GK trooper at underpricced costs.

As for chaos cult armies nope, there are no weaknesses there that are comparable to a pure GK list (current).
You can take standard chaos marines along your cult marines, give them the proper mark and voila, you get cheaper cult troops with just the wargear variation to be able to counter anything. nothing, certainly not fluff, prevents for example the obliterator cult joining cult marines to handle anything that is the cults inherited weakness.

Its still a far cry from being forced to take up guardsmen or ISTs to stand a competitive chance of meeting those mech lists.
Pure GKs are supposed to sell well enough so that GW can make a profit but still be badass with rules that show this and not watered down grey SM.

The only logical reasons I see for this, including slight fluff "corrections" by GW, inbuilt weaknesses in the army no matter what list is built, pure GK or watered down by IG will imo come with weaknesses that outweigh the ridiculous undercost of the GKs themselves if they are to be made anything near as rumored. GW cant do rules for GKs that make them cost around 50p per troop model and still sell enough GKs to go around, they need to be cheap and that must imply other weaknesses will be present to counter this.

If we have:
1: Kickass rules, wargear and statlines.
2: Cheap enough so that people will buy enough models to be profitable
3: Next step is self explanatory or else there wont be any balance.

Naturally all we have heard might very well be overblown and the GKs will continue to be priced at 25-ish points each but also not come with any "elite feel" to them (I´d hate that)
or they can come cheap with a kickass statline but in order to somehow equip them to be able to handle armour and mobility you´d pay through the nose but this can tangent the risk of selling to few models so it doesnt sound logical.
More info is needed on how the various HQ selections will alter the army build and its weaknesses.

Melissia wrote:Personally, rather than jump packs, I'd like to see a Warp Spider type teleport movement. But I doubt that'll happen...

There's nothing in the current background to even remotely support or suggest this, is there?

That much teleporting around wouldn't be something that they'd be doing.

An initial teleport strike, and then... something.

Don't know if JP equipped troops are 'right' either.

It should be interesting to see what they end up with though.

I suppose anything's possible, given the... interesting choices of the last few codices...

Pyriel- wrote:

When you say "Chaos Cult Marines", it appears you're talking about Chaos Marines as a whole Codex. GKs will get the SRG, at a minimum, with Vendetta support being very likely on the Inquisition side of the Codex. The supposed inherited weakness is being addressed.

OTOH, if you look at a pure Chaos Cult Marine army, a la Legions, then the choices shrink in a similar way to a pure GK army, and those weaknesses are inherent in the player's choice, yes?

I see your point.

But I do not agree that this is true for pure GK armies, there the previous inherited weakness can very well still be true.
We simply dont know enough about how different HW choices will affect the overal army composition and thus the inbuilt weaknesses and therefore the excuse to price the GK trooper at underpricced costs.

You can take standard chaos marines along your cult marines, give them the proper mark and voila, you get cheaper cult troops with just the wargear variation to be able to counter anything. nothing, certainly not fluff, prevents for example the obliterator cult joining cult marines to handle anything that is the cults inherited weakness.

Its still a far cry from being forced to take up guardsmen or ISTs to stand a competitive chance of meeting those mech lists.
Pure GKs are supposed to sell well enough so that GW can make a profit but still be badass with rules that show this and not watered down grey SM.

The only logical reasons I see for this, including slight fluff "corrections" by GW, inbuilt weaknesses in the army no matter what list is built, pure GK or watered down by IG will imo come with weaknesses that outweigh the ridiculous undercost of the GKs themselves if they are to be made anything near as rumored. GW cant do rules for GKs that make them cost around 50p per troop model and still sell enough GKs to go around, they need to be cheap and that must imply other weaknesses will be present to counter this.

Naturally all we have heard might very well be overblown and the GKs will continue to be priced at 25-ish points each but also not come with any "elite feel" to them (I´d hate that)
or they can come cheap with a kickass statline but in order to somehow equip them to be able to handle armour and mobility you´d pay through the nose but this can tangent the risk of selling to few models so it doesnt sound logical.

More info is needed on how the various HQ selections will alter the army build and its weaknesses.

Yeah, I gotcha.

I'm not sure if you're defining "pure" GK in the same way that you're looking at "pure" Cult armies. Regardless, the current trend is discounted Troops, and Chaos gives a good example of just how good a Troops entry can get. As long as AA GKs are on part with their Chaos brethren (NMs and PMs, specifically), GKs will be fair for both players and opponents.

When you say to Mark basic CSMs (along with Termies, Raptors and Havocs, by extension), then that's taking a half-step outside a "pure" Cult approach. PMs really shouldn't have MoN Raptors, nor KBs with MoK Havoks (by 3E+ Fluff). When you tack on Obliterators to fill the gap in Cult capability, at that point, I think you've well moved away from a "pure" Cult army. And definitely, it's not as strong as the idea that GKs would typically arrive where an Inquisitor as already seconded much of the remaining Loyalist forces and supplemented with his personal army.

When you talk about "pure" GKs not having to supplement with ISTs or Inducted Guard, would you accept SRGs and notional "big gun" SRG variants as part of the GK? What about "Rifleman" Gundreads & Ironclads? Or Landspeeders as mobile fire support?

If you go to my example, I'm suggesting 27 pts for an AAGK, slightly more for adding a JP or HW, while holding the line at 55 pts for a GKT. That really isn't out of line with the Chaos model, nor anywhere close to 50 pts per trooper.

When you say that 25 pts can't be Elite enough, was my proposed 27-pt AA GK not Elite enough? I'd like to think that auto-Fortuned Sv2+, A2 w/ SB or A3 w/ BP, and NFW Power Weapon would be a potent enough, but non-broken combination.

In any case, I do agree we'll need to see more details. I just can't see GW screwing this up with overpriced Troops when it's basically a major relaunch of the army.

The way to think of GK assault squads are as GK riding Storm Ravens, disembarking more accurately and assaulting. Honestly I don't think GK need a dedicated Assault squad unit entry... their standard squad is good enough in that role and I think having a unit with jump packs dilutes their elite status on an army level to have even more specialized units.

Even if Gk were to get units armed with their special weapons, I think Land Speeders, Razorbacks, etc... diminish them as an army. I like options. I like variety of play styles built into an army. It just shouldn't come at the expense of the concept.

I think variety and specialization of units really needs to come in the form of psyker powers. That is their main weapon.

I think the GK will end up with their troop units cheaper, but that to make them really worthwhile you will upgrade them with psyker powers and equipment that quickly push their points cost up.

aka_mythos wrote:The way to think of GK assault squads are as GK riding Storm Ravens, disembarking more accurately and assaulting. Honestly I don't think GK need a dedicated Assault squad unit entry... their standard squad is good enough in that role and I think having a unit with jump packs dilutes their elite status on an army level to have even more specialized units.

Even if Gk were to get units armed with their special weapons, I think Land Speeders, Razorbacks, etc... diminish them as an army.

I think variety and specialization of units really needs to come in the form of psyker powers. That is their main weapon.

I think the GK will end up with their troop units cheaper, but that to make them really worthwhile you will upgrade them with psyker powers and equipment that quickly push their points cost up.

I agree that the basic GK squad is "good enough" as an assualt unit, but then again, so are Boyz and PMs. There's a lot of stuff that various armies get just to fill check boxes, and the GK Teleport Squad is probably the most egregious example of a unit that was created purely for the sake of having a unit in a FOC slot. At least tacking on a JP and swapping the SB for a BP are actual, obvious changes people can see and understand, creating obvious differentation between the units mobility (JP), shooting (SB vs BP), and fighting (A3 vs A2).

I hope against hope that GKs won't have any Rhino chassis vehicles whatsoever. The addition of METAL BAWKSES would be exceedingly lazy and diminish the point of GK being different from regular SMs. OTOH, Landspeeders and JPs "fit" with the SRG and similar "dynamic" units, so I don't have an issue there - but then, that's the only basic vanilla SM vehicle I can see the GKs fielding.

I'm not huge on everything being a Psyker and using Psyker powers for everything - otherwise, why even have the Purgation squads?

If GKs got cheaper, they can't go below 22 or 23 points, or they're no longer elite enough.

Pyriel- wrote:

When you say "Chaos Cult Marines", it appears you're talking about Chaos Marines as a whole Codex. GKs will get the SRG, at a minimum, with Vendetta support being very likely on the Inquisition side of the Codex. The supposed inherited weakness is being addressed.

OTOH, if you look at a pure Chaos Cult Marine army, a la Legions, then the choices shrink in a similar way to a pure GK army, and those weaknesses are inherent in the player's choice, yes?

I see your point.
But I do not agree that this is true for pure GK armies, there the previous inherited weakness can very well still be true.
We simply dont know enough about how different HW choices will affect the overal army composition and thus the inbuilt weaknesses and therefore the excuse to price the GK trooper at underpricced costs.

As for chaos cult armies nope, there are no weaknesses there that are comparable to a pure GK list (current).
You can take standard chaos marines along your cult marines, give them the proper mark and voila, you get cheaper cult troops with just the wargear variation to be able to counter anything. nothing, certainly not fluff, prevents for example the obliterator cult joining cult marines to handle anything that is the cults inherited weakness.

Its still a far cry from being forced to take up guardsmen or ISTs to stand a competitive chance of meeting those mech lists.
Pure GKs are supposed to sell well enough so that GW can make a profit but still be badass with rules that show this and not watered down grey SM.

The only logical reasons I see for this, including slight fluff "corrections" by GW, inbuilt weaknesses in the army no matter what list is built, pure GK or watered down by IG will imo come with weaknesses that outweigh the ridiculous undercost of the GKs themselves if they are to be made anything near as rumored. GW cant do rules for GKs that make them cost around 50p per troop model and still sell enough GKs to go around, they need to be cheap and that must imply other weaknesses will be present to counter this.

If we have:
1: Kickass rules, wargear and statlines.
2: Cheap enough so that people will buy enough models to be profitable
3: Next step is self explanatory or else there wont be any balance.

Naturally all we have heard might very well be overblown and the GKs will continue to be priced at 25-ish points each but also not come with any "elite feel" to them (I´d hate that)
or they can come cheap with a kickass statline but in order to somehow equip them to be able to handle armour and mobility you´d pay through the nose but this can tangent the risk of selling to few models so it doesnt sound logical.
More info is needed on how the various HQ selections will alter the army build and its weaknesses.

GK will still have weaknesses. Lack of long-range tankbusting firepower will probably continue to be an issue. Not having cheap transports like Rhinos and Razorbacks for your baseline objective grabbing troops is another. That weakness is magnified by the fact that with the GK's higher than normal points cost,if you want to use ridiculous units like GKT's with TH/SS,you're not going to be able to get many Troops squads out to grab objectives. That means you're banking on tabling your opponent and/or a KP game to get the W.

As for model sales,people will buy them because they want to try different configurations and GK models are just sweet. I don't think GW is worried about sales for GK. They have a ton of interest from the current community,and it's really only the outdated rules and metal baseline mini's that are holding many people back from starting them. Plus,the way the rumors sound,they will be the noob dream army. Ridiculously tough,high points cost=less minis to buy,and sweet figs. They would be a great starter army for anybody new to the game,as their armor save rerolls will keep people in games.

Whatever1 wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:

When you say "Chaos Cult Marines", it appears you're talking about Chaos Marines as a whole Codex. GKs will get the SRG, at a minimum, with Vendetta support being very likely on the Inquisition side of the Codex. The supposed inherited weakness is being addressed.

OTOH, if you look at a pure Chaos Cult Marine army, a la Legions, then the choices shrink in a similar way to a pure GK army, and those weaknesses are inherent in the player's choice, yes?

I see your point.
But I do not agree that this is true for pure GK armies, there the previous inherited weakness can very well still be true.
We simply dont know enough about how different HW choices will affect the overal army composition and thus the inbuilt weaknesses and therefore the excuse to price the GK trooper at underpricced costs.

As for chaos cult armies nope, there are no weaknesses there that are comparable to a pure GK list (current).
You can take standard chaos marines along your cult marines, give them the proper mark and voila, you get cheaper cult troops with just the wargear variation to be able to counter anything. nothing, certainly not fluff, prevents for example the obliterator cult joining cult marines to handle anything that is the cults inherited weakness.

Its still a far cry from being forced to take up guardsmen or ISTs to stand a competitive chance of meeting those mech lists.
Pure GKs are supposed to sell well enough so that GW can make a profit but still be badass with rules that show this and not watered down grey SM.

The only logical reasons I see for this, including slight fluff "corrections" by GW, inbuilt weaknesses in the army no matter what list is built, pure GK or watered down by IG will imo come with weaknesses that outweigh the ridiculous undercost of the GKs themselves if they are to be made anything near as rumored. GW cant do rules for GKs that make them cost around 50p per troop model and still sell enough GKs to go around, they need to be cheap and that must imply other weaknesses will be present to counter this.

If we have:
1: Kickass rules, wargear and statlines.
2: Cheap enough so that people will buy enough models to be profitable
3: Next step is self explanatory or else there wont be any balance.

Naturally all we have heard might very well be overblown and the GKs will continue to be priced at 25-ish points each but also not come with any "elite feel" to them (I´d hate that)
or they can come cheap with a kickass statline but in order to somehow equip them to be able to handle armour and mobility you´d pay through the nose but this can tangent the risk of selling to few models so it doesnt sound logical.
More info is needed on how the various HQ selections will alter the army build and its weaknesses.

GK will still have weaknesses. Lack of long-range tankbusting firepower will probably continue to be an issue. Not having cheap transports like Rhinos and Razorbacks for your baseline objective grabbing troops is another. That weakness is magnified by the fact that with the GK's higher than normal points cost,if you want to use ridiculous units like GKT's with TH/SS,you're not going to be able to get many Troops squads out to grab objectives. That means you're banking on tabling your opponent and/or a KP game to get the W.

As for model sales,people will buy them because they want to try different configurations and GK models are just sweet. I don't think GW is worried about sales for GK. They have a ton of interest from the current community,and it's really only the outdated rules and metal baseline mini's that are holding many people back from starting them. Plus,the way the rumors sound,they will be the noob dream army. Ridiculously tough,high points cost=less minis to buy,and sweet figs. They would be a great starter army for anybody new to the game,as their armor save rerolls will keep people in games.

Not to mention, easy to paint! A PAGK can look good in a couple hours, if not minutes

Alpharius wrote:

Melissia wrote:Personally, rather than jump packs, I'd like to see a Warp Spider type teleport movement. But I doubt that'll happen...

There's nothing in the current background to even remotely support or suggest this, is there?

That much teleporting around wouldn't be something that they'd be doing.

An initial teleport strike, and then... something.

Don't know if JP equipped troops are 'right' either.

It should be interesting to see what they end up with though.

I suppose anything's possible, given the... interesting choices of the last few codices...

well if you include novels in the fluff then yes jump pack gk exist, with melta pistols no less

Whatever1 wrote:As for model sales,people will buy them because they want to try different configurations and GK models are just sweet. I don't think GW is worried about sales for GK. They have a ton of interest from the current community,and it's really only the outdated rules and metal baseline mini's that are holding many people back from starting them.

Plus,the way the rumors sound,they will be the noob dream army. Ridiculously tough,high points cost=less minis to buy,and sweet figs. They would be a great starter army for anybody new to the game,as their armor save rerolls will keep people in games.

Yup, update the Codex and make the minis plastic, and we'll see GKs sell just fine.

I hadn't though about the rerollable saves making GKs noob-friendly, but yeah, I can see people being attracted to them for that. We had a guy switch from Orks to Necrons because he got sick and tired of picking up models by the handful.

When you say to Mark basic CSMs (along with Termies, Raptors and Havocs, by extension), then that's taking a half-step outside a "pure" Cult approach. PMs really shouldn't have MoN Raptors, nor KBs with MoK Havoks (by 3E+ Fluff). When you tack on Obliterators to fill the gap in Cult capability, at that point, I think you've well moved away from a "pure" Cult army. And definitely, it's not as strong as the idea that GKs would typically arrive where an Inquisitor as already seconded much of the remaining Loyalist forces and supplemented with his personal army.

When you talk about "pure" GKs not having to supplement with ISTs or Inducted Guard, would you accept SRGs and notional "big gun" SRG variants as part of the GK? What about "Rifleman" Gundreads & Ironclads? Or Landspeeders as mobile fire support?

Yes you are right.
My point is though that watering down a chaos cult army by including oblits or marked chaos marines to mend any weaknesses is far from the same thing as watering down a pure GK army by including IG platoons.
Had a chaos cult army being forced to include 5 or 6+ save "crap" in it in order to become balanced it would be a proper comparison. As it is now cults can include cult marked +3 save models and even 2+ save models and this can be said to be a non pure cult army whereas a non pure GK army has not only 4-5-6+ save elements in it but as a majority consists of those.

If I had a choice in how to water down a GK army to make it balanced I´d choose 3+ elements any day over crappy cannonfodder to maintain that elite overall feel in the army.
Thus if I had to I would rather choose SM or GK landspeeders etc etc over IG sentinels and allied SM devastator squads over IG cannonfodder infantry.
Hopefully GW will create something that can be equally used and balanced no matter if it consists of pure GKs or a mix of cannon fodder units and inquisitors.

A pure GK army is only PA and TA GKs with GK HQ(s). This doesnt work currently.
A pure cult army is for example loads of plague marines in cheap transports, the inherited weaknesses cant even be comparable since compared to the pure GK version the pure cult army can be said to not have any weaknesses to speak of.

A rumored GK statline and gear would in reality (inserted to a normal SM codex) be worth around 40 points a model imo.
The 2+ save is one thing but the save reroll is major. Even against AP2 weapons and AP2 templates common terrain 4+ cover saves will be rerollable and I with psychic powers or inv saves rerolls are significant as well vs power weapons and such. A 2+ normal save with a reroll means no "normal" weapons will ever be able to touch a grey knight, all the bolters, lasguns etc in the opponents army are pretty much wasted. That is worth quite some points there.

As for jump packs with rerollable 2+ saves it lowers the time the GKs are in the open even more.

However, in order to actually sell armies of GK minis a point cost of 20-30p for a basic PAGK and 45-50 for a GKT would be in order or else I cant see GW break even on the cost of producing them.
I guess that if you select GK HQs with the new codex you will be able to build a pure GK army that cant cost-efficiently cover their inbuilt weaknesses to balance up the insane power levels of the knights themselves (that or no GKs besides termies will ever be given inv saves to create a true weak spot).

If you mix in non GK HQs and open up IG units then I guess certain GK units or choices wont be available to create strenghts and new inbuilt weaknesses all across the line of possible GK army builds to achieve the super elite feel but with maintained model count. At least this is my wishlist for the codex and it also sound logical.
I too would hate to see weak transport options for GKs or at least for pure GK armies, I cant see such expensive troops being sent into the fiercest of battles protected by a tin can.
I can however, for the same reason see jump pack equipped GKs. Anything that lowers their approach time into melee and out from the guns of the enemy.

Anyway, we are merely guessing and wishing with nothing concrete to go at. The only thing substantial that we could do would be to calculate the average worth of having 2+ armours with rerolls.
If the GK codex is out due in jan. I would expect some more solid facts to start hitting the boards in a month or so.

As for model sales,people will buy them because they want to try different configurations and GK models are just sweet. I don't think GW is worried about sales for GK.

I dont agree.
I dont think a big money making company with a duty to see to its stock share holders can simply wing sales based on people "maybe" buying models in enough numbers simply because they look good if the rulebook being made for them intends the common GK army collector to get 10 GKs and 5 GK terminators for his 1850p army.

Remember the lengths GW went to when they needed to figure out weather plastic ISTs were even worth making. They arent going to do anything other then try to maximize sales of newly sculpted and cast model ranges since GW is a business, not a charity.

I hadn't though about the rerollable saves making GKs noob-friendly, but yeah, I can see people being attracted to them for that. We had a guy switch from Orks to Necrons because he got sick and tired of picking up models by the handful.

Me neither.
Good point!

JohnHwangDD wrote:
I'm not huge on everything being a Psyker and using Psyker powers for everything - otherwise, why even have the Purgation squads?

If GKs got cheaper, they can't go below 22 or 23 points, or they're no longer elite enough.

I think its the distinction between the uber psyker GK versus those just adept at resisting chaos. This is my own rationalizing thought, but those who are psychically potent within the GK would likely become the members who are stomping around in terminator armor as more elite members while those not gifted in that way would be given the more fire support role, utilizing the less psyker approach.

This is kinda what I was getting at before... I think when it comes to GK it could be a matter of making it character centric, if powers are purchased like special weapons cantered around the Justicars the points could be displaced. Where by something practically mandatory, like the Justicar is over priced while the extra models are under priced. Over all the units cost would balance out the same, but leaves open the possibility of a cheaper mass of troops.

With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

GK with Jump Packs sounds like something GW would do if people stopped playing their game. "OK look guys from now on GK get Jump Packs OK?"

wolfshadow wrote:With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

That be a lot of missiles coming from a 5 man group @_@

Regardless, I think we will see some jaw dropping craziness. Violations of canon and loads of new models for everyone to admire or hate. At the last US Gamesday, I spoke with a Dev from Fantasy Flight Games concerning the Deathwatch RPG and if it was canon. Yes it is nearly 100% canon, I asked what wasnt, he pointed out minor issues such as names and places but they were given the green light to write up (with guidance from GW) the history, etc, of the Deathwatch...same will go for the Sisters of Battle coming later this year. He said that GW has a set canon that they dont deviate from - Emperor on throne, Horus bad, Space Marines are awesome, etc. However, they have creative freedom to rewrite fluff to update/enhance exisiting canon...or remove completely due to incompatibality with current fluff. Fluff doesnt equal canon. They have guidelines that we will never see or understand unless a GW writer quits, violates his secrecy agreement and spreads the Primordial Truth of GW canon. I have no idea where I was going with this.

Oh. I dont imagine they are going to destroy the concept of the GK army, it will be GK at its core but we will see new twists to its canon as they expand an army where information is limited and "mysterious".

So lets recap:

Re-rollable saves all around (Cover, armor, invuln)
2+ Save on basic dudes
Still have WS5, 2A, and S6 on basic dudes
Potentially getting jump packs

Is it just me or is this thread requiring more than a little bit of salt to digest?

Oh screw it, let me reveal MY special knowledge about the new GK Codex. It came from multiple, RELIABLE sources. No salt is needed to believe this, for blessed is the mind with no room for doubt:

Since Grey Knights are Knights, they all get to ride the Space Ponies of the Emperah, and as such will move as Cavalry.

Additionally, the Inquisition has created a special breeding program for Emperah Space Ponies, creating "His Unbelievably Resilient Really Radical Space Ponies". As such, all Grey Knight Terminators get to ride HURRR Space Ponies for an additional 2 points per model.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:So lets recap:

Re-rollable saves all around (Cover, armor, invuln)
2+ Save on basic dudes
Still have WS5, 2A, and S6 on basic dudes
Potentially getting jump packs

Is it just me or is this thread requiring more than a little bit of salt to digest?

Oh screw it, let me reveal MY special knowledge about the new GK Codex. It came from multiple, RELIABLE sources. No salt is needed to believe this, for blessed is the mind with no room for doubt:

Since Grey Knights are Knights, they all get to ride the Space Ponies of the Emperah, and as such will move as Cavalry.

Additionally, the Inquisition has created a special breeding program for Emperah Space Ponies, creating "His Unbelievably Resilient Really Radical Space Ponies". As such, all Grey Knight Terminators get to ride HURRR Space Ponies for an additional 2 points per model.

Yeah, I heard that rumor too, the ponies are going to be pink IIRC

Voodoo Boyz wrote:So lets recap:

Re-rollable saves all around (Cover, armor, invuln)
2+ Save on basic dudes
Still have WS5, 2A, and S6 on basic dudes
Potentially getting jump packs

Is it just me or is this thread requiring more than a little bit of salt to digest?

How dare you bring reason onto the Internet! How very dare you.


I think salt should be applied to pretty much everything to do with the Grey Knights until a known, reliable source says something, ala Harry.

In that case, would you consider the 2+ saves confirmed? As I think Harry was the source of that.

If that's the case then I would trust that to an extent, add that to the rest and not so much...

But hey, I'm no expert. Believe it or not.

With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

Logical.
The fewer model count there is in the army the more each of the dwindling units need to be able to accomplish on their own.

Pyriel- wrote:

With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

Logical.
The fewer model count there is in the army the more each of the dwindling units need to be able to accomplish on their own.

Still broken if the shrouding exists, even in it's current 3d6 form.

Still broken if the shrouding exists, even in it's current 3d6 form.

You deduct this from rumors?

Unless and until GK get transports other than Land Raiders, they will continue to be a fail army as the lack of transports translates into a lack of tactical flexibility. I don't care what kind of saves they get or how awesome they may be in CC, unless you can move them around the field other than just teleporting them on, they won't be able to keep up with other 5th Ed armies.

Very educational thread... Don't know much about the actual game, this has been a particularly well debated topic.

Has there been anything to suggest that JP Grey Knigths are a possibility. It doesn't seem very fluffy to me. After all, GK exist in 40k to teleport in, slay the uber-daemon and then stroll off heroically into the sunset, not to be a tactically adaptable force. That's why a pure GK army sounds so unbalanced - it is. They rely on Guard or Inquisition troops to do the all round fighting so I think that having a specific fast attack version or a specific anti-tank version or bulking the list out with Chaplains really fits what GK are supposed to be.

Essentially Gk are a one-trick pony, it just happens to be a hell of a trick.

Pyriel- wrote:

Still broken if the shrouding exists, even in it's current 3d6 form.

You deduct this from rumors?

Aren't we speculating? I'm talking about someone suggesting 5 CMLs in a terminator squad.

You deduct this from rumors?

I'm guessing this meant to say, "you deduce this from rumors?" Deduct doesn't really work there.

Unless and until GK get transports other than Land Raiders, they will continue to be a fail army as the lack of transports translates into a lack of tactical flexibility. I don't care what kind of saves they get or how awesome they may be in CC, unless you can move them around the field other than just teleporting them on, they won't be able to keep up with other 5th Ed armies.

Word!

bforber wrote:

Pyriel- wrote:
You deduct this from rumors?

Aren't we speculating? I'm talking about someone suggesting 5 CMLs in a terminator squad.

Let's say they are 90+ pts a piece. Are they broken now? Hence the question about rumors.

BrassScorpion wrote:

You deduct this from rumors?

I'm guessing this meant to say, "you deduce this from rumors?" Deduct doesn't really work there.

I'm not trying to confirm anything other than math, I guess, Assuming any of this is even true, (again speculation.) All I'm saying is if GKTs can stand 48" away and fire at will, and the shrouding still exists as currently written, they would have to roll a 16 on 3d6 to be able to see them. I'm sure something will be closer than 48" away on the board, but I'm simply speaking in either optimal terms of even from a first turn of the game perspective.

wizard12 wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:So lets recap:

Re-rollable saves all around (Cover, armor, invuln)
2+ Save on basic dudes
Still have WS5, 2A, and S6 on basic dudes
Potentially getting jump packs

Is it just me or is this thread requiring more than a little bit of salt to digest?

Oh screw it, let me reveal MY special knowledge about the new GK Codex. It came from multiple, RELIABLE sources. No salt is needed to believe this, for blessed is the mind with no room for doubt:

Since Grey Knights are Knights, they all get to ride the Space Ponies of the Emperah, and as such will move as Cavalry.

Additionally, the Inquisition has created a special breeding program for Emperah Space Ponies, creating "His Unbelievably Resilient Really Radical Space Ponies". As such, all Grey Knight Terminators get to ride HURRR Space Ponies for an additional 2 points per model.

Yeah, I heard that rumor too, the ponies are going to be pink IIRC

I was trying to keep somethings quiet, but you went and spoiled it - so I may as well let the cat out of the bag some more:

The Space Ponies and HURRR Space Ponies may be upgraded to Pink Space Ponies for 1 point/model. These are a faster breed than the other Space Ponies and a very rare breed of the HURRR Space Ponies. They are bred specifically by the Ordo Xenos Inquisitors using modified Ork Technology, where the "Pink Ones Go Faster".

As such Pink Space Ponies and HURRR Pink Space Ponies move an extra inch in the movement phase.
They also make the Grey Knights riding them look FABULOUS.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Unless and until GK get transports other than Land Raiders, they will continue to be a fail army as the lack of transports translates into a lack of tactical flexibility. I don't care what kind of saves they get or how awesome they may be in CC, unless you can move them around the field other than just teleporting them on, they won't be able to keep up with other 5th Ed armies.

'Nids?
JP Blood angels?
Blob squad guard?
Green tide?
Water-warrior GKs?

Your implying that to be even the slightest bit effective you need transports other than land raiders, the above, while not the champs of the meta-game can be arguably competitive.

Footdar does it, too, as do biker armies and such. Non-mechanized Guard (mechanized in this case referring to infantry) can certainly hit hard and have plenty to absorb assaults.. Sisters aren't THAT much more survivable within their transports than without given the extra cost we have to pay for the transports compared to purchasing more Sisters and having large squads of 3+ saves that can absorb casualties.

Daemons are a competitive army also and they have no transports but rely on deep-strike and very tough and powerful elite units.

Daemons = Grey Hunters? The Irony.

wizard12 wrote:'Nids?

Nids may not have "transports" as such, but between the Mawloc and the Tervigon, you've got models that approximate the use of transports - conveying models around the board. Can be competitive, yes. But GW's FAQ nerfed them back to being only somewhat so. There are a variety of builds you can do with them that can be competitive, but they're not as strong as some of the other codices.

wizard12 wrote:JP Blood angels?

JP Blood Angels may not have transports, but they have mobility in spades. Something that you can't say for the rumored GKs. And if you want to build a more competitive BA list, you can by - what? Yes, adding some transports.

wizard12 wrote:Blob squad guard?
Green tide?

I haven't seen a competitive infantry horde army in 5th Ed. yet. Can they be played well? Yeah, but like BA, you're better off using a list with some mechanized aspects. And with those codices you have the option to. You can play these armies if you want to for funsies, but don't expect to get far.

wizard12 wrote:Water-warrior GKs?

Even the author of B&C's Water Warrior GK article admits that GKs are seriously underpowered. And if this is the only way you can get a GK army to work, then it's pretty weak.

Melissia wrote:Footdar

That's all you need to say right there.

wizard12 wrote:Your implying that to be even the slightest bit effective you need transports other than land raiders, the above, while not the champs of the meta-game can be arguably competitive.

What I'm implying is that if GW puts out a list that only gives you one viable competitive build with GK, then they've failed to improve the codex for 5th Ed. SM, IG, BA, SW, pre-FAQ Nids, and by the looks of it, DE all have a wide variety of viable competitive builds. GW's had a pretty good record of late when releasing their codices to actually improve them, but if GK remain a one-trick pony, then that's really more of a lateral move than anything upward. I don't necessarily think that every new army has to be broken. (I mean, I enjoy playing a Deathwing army. I just expect when I play it that winning will be a lot more challenging.) But I do think that GW should write their new codices so that players have more than one option to not play a sucky army.

I don't think GK will be too hampered by not having transports as long as they aren't limited to short range anti-tank.

What if they had slightly increased movement speed, but not jetpack-level, having infantry move an extra 2 or 3 inches every movement phase might do the job.

What about GK getting a new USR that gives them the ability to use their Stormbolters AND run in the same phase.

skrulnik wrote:What about GK getting a new USR that gives them the ability to use their Stormbolters AND run in the same phase.

I'm going to have to salt that.

Death By Monkeys wrote:I haven't seen a competitive infantry horde army in 5th Ed. yet. Can they be played well? Yeah, but like BA, you're better off using a list with some mechanized aspects. And with those codices you have the option to. You can play these armies if you want to for funsies, but don't expect to get far.

Hordes of Black Templars on foot owns. But I do agree that some decent vehicle options would add a lot to the list. But not every army can have everything. I would be ok with an infantry based army so long as it was competative. Even if the one playable build is the same as the current dex if that build is actually competative then its still an improvement.

Zid wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

That be a lot of missiles coming from a 5 man group @_@

Sup? I'm a space wolf long fang and I cost a fifth of what these guys cost. And I can pick different targets.

ArtfcllyFlvrd wrote:
Hordes of Black Templars on foot owns. But I do agree that some decent vehicle options would add a lot to the list. But not every army can have everything. I would be ok with an infantry based army so long as it was competative. Even if the one playable build is the same as the current dex if that build is actually competative then its still an improvement.

the mentality he is talking about comes from spam-lists, one razorback is good, so how about we take 15, if i can be good with 15 vehicles, and i cant with zero, well then units on foot obviously suck.
I play "foot IG" which in reality is infantry heavy IG with several small mech components that support the infantry and have been very sucessful.
GK seems hard to balance because I really want an elite group of badasses that can bring the fight to the enemy, but there is a fine line between "really good troops" like chaos marines, and simply having an army consisting of several deathstars and nothing else.

Pyriel- wrote:Had a chaos cult army being forced to include 5 or 6+ save "crap" in it in order to become balanced it would be a proper comparison.

Thus if I had to I would rather choose SM or GK landspeeders etc etc over IG sentinels and allied SM devastator squads over IG cannonfodder infantry.
Hopefully GW will create something that can be equally used and balanced no matter if it consists of pure GKs or a mix of cannon fodder units and inquisitors.

A rumored GK statline and gear would in reality (inserted to a normal SM codex) be worth around 40 points a model imo. The 2+ save is one thing but the save reroll is major. Even against AP2 weapons and AP2 templates common terrain 4+ cover saves will be rerollable and I with psychic powers or inv saves rerolls are significant as well vs power weapons and such. A 2+ normal save with a reroll means no "normal" weapons will ever be able to touch a grey knight, all the bolters, lasguns etc in the opponents army are pretty much wasted.

As for jump packs with rerollable 2+ saves it lowers the time the GKs are in the open even more.

However, in order to actually sell armies of GK minis a point cost of 20-30p for a basic PAGK and 45-50 for a GKT would be in order or else I cant see GW break even on the cost of producing them.

Anyway, we are merely guessing and wishing with nothing concrete to go at.

If the GK codex is out due in jan. I would expect some more solid facts to start hitting the boards in a month or so.

tl;dr

No, seriously, whew, thanks.

In my mind, any "proper" Cult army has at least 1 unit of 5+ models - Lesser Daemons, which are roughly analogous to ISTs.

I agree with what you're saying in terms of a "pure" GK army, and have similar hopes for GK, Inq, and mixed armies being viable.

I don't think pure PMs in Rhinos would be especially viable, even with Daemon support. No Heavy / Artillery, for starters... The thing is getting GKs to a similar starting point in terms of theme, concept and playability. Once GW gets this done, Codex: Chaos Legions becomes an easy follow-up.

40 points would be excessive, because of the presence of AP2 and better guns in the game. Lasguns & Bolters are already largely useless, just trying for a lucky shot even against Sv3+. A S10 AP2 Demolisher / Vindicator / Medusa flattens 40-pt AA GKs just as fast as it flattens 15-pt SMs. Hence, I tune them at 27 pts or so. At 30+ pts, they're probably not viable. Given that we have non-broken Sv2+/5++ Deathwing and Sv2+/3++ Termies (which are functionally tougher than re-rollable 5++) already, I'm not seeing the issue that needs massive points bump. What we see is that the Sv2+ has been much overcosted. CSM Termies (which aren't gamebreaking) are only 30 pts per model, and they have the essentially similar stats to a AA GK; trade the 5++ for the re-roll, keep the PW and bump the tlB for a SB and you're in the ballpark. Apply the Troops discount, and bang, 27 pts.

AA GK JPs move just as fast as AA GKs in a LRC, but slower than a SRG.

I'm hoping for 27-28 pts per AAGK and 42-43 pts for a GKT.

We have enough information that PAGKs are becoming AAGKs, so we're looking at an improved GK statline with Sv2+ being standard. Removing all of the Sv3+ is a good change for the army.

I sure hope we get more information on GKs coming out, but as we saw with DE and GW in general, they're not good at previewing things... Keep your fingers crossed.
____

aka_mythos wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:I'm not huge on everything being a Psyker and using Psyker powers for everything - otherwise, why even have the Purgation squads?

I think its the distinction between the uber psyker GK versus those just adept at resisting chaos. This is my own rationalizing thought, but those who are psychically potent within the GK would likely become the members who are stomping around in terminator armor as more elite members while those not gifted in that way would be given the more fire support role, utilizing the less psyker approach.

This is kinda what I was getting at before... I think when it comes to GK it could be a matter of making it character centric, if powers are purchased like special weapons cantered around the Justicars the points could be displaced. Where by something practically mandatory, like the Justicar is over priced while the extra models are under priced. Over all the units cost would balance out the same, but leaves open the possibility of a cheaper mass of troops.

Oh, OK, thanks for clarifying. Yeah, I could see GW doing something like that, with the Justicar being the Psyker focus similar to how the PBS works, but buying 1+ powers for more tactical options.
____

wolfshadow wrote:With the rumours of more weapons options such as wrist mounted cyclones, what do the board vets think of the idea of a GK Termie squad allowed several heavy weapons as a HS slot. A squad of 5 cyclone armed GKs would alleviate the lack of anti-tank.....

GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

WARNING: BIG POST

In here I continue the debate on transports and such started by Death By Monkeys

I actually agree with a lot of what you've said there, wizard12. You made a number of very valid points about semi-mech lists, which I agree can be very competitive (well, except for the mech/JP BA as you pointed out, which is kind of an anti-combo). But I think the key is that we don't know that GK will be a one trick pony list. I hope it isn't. I hope that GW gives us enough options so that there will be a variety of mono-GK lists that will be competitive. But from the rumors and debate I've seen so far, I'm skeptical.

I think it's reasonable to assume that the Codex overall won't be a one-trick pony, but it's entirely possible that pure GK will have a strongly preferred playstyle.

Not necessarily "water warrior"

Sorry to parachute in here like an ultra n00b but what is the difference between power armour and artificer armour? Is it just that the former is 3+ and the latter is 2+?

ColdSadHungry wrote:Sorry to parachute in here like an ultra n00b but what is the difference between power armour and artificer armour? Is it just that the former is 3+ and the latter is 2+?

Yeah, pretty much...

@Death by Monkeys: so we're agreed we'll postpone the argument until codex GKs is released

I'm not a fan of the idea of Power Armor Grey Knights all with Power Weapons by default. With a MEQ Veteran stat-line and trading the Pistol for a Storm Bolter (-1A, +1 shot, +12" range) I think you're weighing in at 18-20 points starting out - with no special rules, war gear, or equipment. Start throwing on Power Weapons, Stat-bumps, Fearless / Stubborn, and re-rolls and you'll be at 35 points-per-model in short order. You'll also have a unit with too few wounds and no invulnerable saves that loses you too many points in Close Combat with any sort of Power Weapon or Power Fist. We're talking about losing 175-350 points in 2-3 rounds of Close Combat with some random dreadnought. Bad times and bad design there.

Grey Knights in Power Armor are either going to need comparatively inexpensive ablative wounds around their Justicar (having no Power Weapons on the basic models would do nicely) or they will need some sort of Psychic Power in Assault that gives them invulnerable saves - making them basically mini-terminators that are, for some reason, nearly unplayable against Tyrannids. Ideally ablative wounds and a psychic power invulnerable save in Assault would be the most playable combination.

They also need some sort of mobility option. Foot-slogging assault troops at 6" with Assault Weapons are bad. Having to run from cover source to cover source to use your cover-save re-roll as your only protection against AP2 (or 3 if they don't have artifacer armor) is likewise terrible. They'll need to be able to Deep Strike into play with some sort of accuracy and maybe be able to teleporter-hope across the battlefield.

The issue is how you fit them in between basic Marine Veterans (about 18 points for PA, CCW) and Marine Terminators (40 points for TDA, Power Fist, Storm Bolter) without making them overpriced glass-cannons.

- Marty Lund

JohnHwangDD wrote:
GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

What about the idea of Purgation squads being able to equip Terminator Armour as a wargear option?

IIRC, all GK will have artificer armor but the reroll saves only kicks in if a special is joined to the squad.

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

What about the idea of Purgation squads being able to equip Terminator Armour as a wargear option?

I could see that, and it'd be an interesting unit from a Theme POV. Not sure how points-effective it'd be, but definitely an interesting Fluff unit I'd like to see!

JohnHwangDD wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:
GKT Devastators? Assuming 3-5 GKTs with a Sergeant & 2-4 gunners, that unit would be fair. I actually could see them, if GW hadn't already created the "Puragtion" squad out of thin air last time. A Purgation squad of AA GKs sitting in cover (with re-rollable saves) would be just as durable as GKTs, but cheaper, so more effective.

What I don't see are CMLs, because they're 48" range and require a regular Termie body, not a GKT body.

What about the idea of Purgation squads being able to equip Terminator Armour as a wargear option?

I could see that, and it'd be an interesting unit from a Theme POV. Not sure how points-effective it'd be, but definitely an interesting Fluff unit I'd like to see!

Actually, one of the rumors from Seer was that Terminators would be available in 'multiple slots'....so could be.

GKTs as Elites (and Troops via Stern) are practically a given after Deathwing showed again that Termie Troops simply can't be broken.

I can't see GKTs as Fast, but a GKT Dev squad? Sure!

Do it!!!

JohnHwangDD wrote:GKTs as Elites (and Troops via Stern) are practically a given after Deathwing showed again that Termie Troops simply can't be broken.

I can't see GKTs as Fast, but a GKT Dev squad? Sure!

Do it!!!

@ your comment about the CMLs. Rumour has a wrist mounted CML for GKs might be available. It was mentioned in the warseer thread.

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:GKTs as Elites (and Troops via Stern) are practically a given after Deathwing showed again that Termie Troops simply can't be broken.

I can't see GKTs as Fast, but a GKT Dev squad? Sure!

Do it!!!

@ your comment about the CMLs. Rumour has a wrist mounted CML for GKs might be available. It was mentioned in the warseer thread.

What moron is writing the Codex? They're completely ruining the opportunity to create a distinctive SM alternative. It's like they listened to every suggestion and said: "what is the blandest thing we could do to the most non-standard SM army we currently have?"

"No generic Rhinos & Razorbacks? Add them"

"No Termie CMLs?" Add them"

At this rate, we'll get GK Bikers and GK Vindicators.

Might as well flush the whole damn thing down the toilet.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:GKTs as Elites (and Troops via Stern) are practically a given after Deathwing showed again that Termie Troops simply can't be broken.

I can't see GKTs as Fast, but a GKT Dev squad? Sure!

Do it!!!

@ your comment about the CMLs. Rumour has a wrist mounted CML for GKs might be available. It was mentioned in the warseer thread.

What moron is writing the Codex? They're completely ruining the opportunity to create a distinctive SM alternative. It's like they listened to every suggestion and said: "what is the blandest thing we could do to the most non-standard SM army we currently have?"

"No generic Rhinos & Razorbacks? Add them"

"No Termie CMLs?" Add them"

At this rate, we'll get GK Bikers and GK Vindicators.

Might as well flush the whole damn thing down the toilet.

I dunno, wrist mounted CMLs are pretty distinctive....

They could attach the CML to the model's crotch, and it's still functionally exactly the same as the regular CML for all intents and purposes. No imagination, no point.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:GKTs as Elites (and Troops via Stern) are practically a given after Deathwing showed again that Termie Troops simply can't be broken.

I can't see GKTs as Fast, but a GKT Dev squad? Sure!

Do it!!!

@ your comment about the CMLs. Rumour has a wrist mounted CML for GKs might be available. It was mentioned in the warseer thread.

What moron is writing the Codex? They're completely ruining the opportunity to create a distinctive SM alternative. It's like they listened to every suggestion and said: "what is the blandest thing we could do to the most non-standard SM army we currently have?"

"No generic Rhinos & Razorbacks? Add them"

"No Termie CMLs?" Add them"

At this rate, we'll get GK Bikers and GK Vindicators.

Might as well flush the whole damn thing down the toilet.

I doubt we'll see any kind of CML for the GKT. For one,a wrist mounted ML sounds pretty silly. For another,it simply makes GKT's too good. Think about a unit of WS5 Termies with S6 Force Weapons that goes at I4 that also gets to reroll it's 2+ armor save and 5+ Invulnerable saves,AND also has the option to throw in some TH/SS models with 2+/3+ rerollable saves,AND also has the option to take an effective long range anti tank weapon like the CML. It's a do everything unit with zero weakness at all. There's no reason NOT to take them,which is why I highly doubt they'll have a long range weapon option.

Whatever1 wrote:
I doubt we'll see any kind of CML for the GKT. For one,a wrist mounted ML sounds pretty silly. For another,it simply makes GKT's too good. Think about a unit of WS5 Termies with S6 Force Weapons that goes at I4 that also gets to reroll it's 2+ armor save and 5+ Invulnerable saves,AND also has the option to throw in some TH/SS models with 2+/3+ rerollable saves,AND also has the option to take an effective long range anti tank weapon like the CML. It's a do everything unit with zero weakness at all. There's no reason NOT to take them,which is why I highly doubt they'll have a long range weapon option.

Uh, what about points cost?
GKs weakness is the very few # of them that you will be fielding. GKs SHOULD be good at everything....You just have to pay for the ability.

These are the people the Inqusition brough in to wipe out another SM chapter.

Does anybody remember a piece of rumor about a landraider with half its body being a cannon? or the one many gk flyer? any new rumours on that?

wolfshadow wrote:
GKs weakness is the very few # of them that you will be fielding. GKs SHOULD be good at everything....You just have to pay for the ability.

Except Long Range anti tank imo. That should always be their weakness so that mech armies can run circles around them

That and they're supposed to go around bashing Daemons, not tanks.

Just Dave wrote:That and they're supposed to go around bashing Daemons, not tanks.

Chainfists that strike at initiative with any daemon or chaos vehicle?

kenshin620 wrote:

Just Dave wrote:That and they're supposed to go around bashing Daemons, not tanks.

Chainfists that strike at initiative with any daemon or chaos vehicle?

If Matt Ward writes it...

kenshin620 wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:
GKs weakness is the very few # of them that you will be fielding. GKs SHOULD be good at everything....You just have to pay for the ability.

Except Long Range anti tank imo. That should always be their weakness so that mech armies can run circles around them

Just Dave wrote:That and they're supposed to go around bashing Daemons, not tanks.

This kind of argument always struck me as ridiculously dumb, especially from a fluff standpoint.

In case you've never looked at the Chaos Marine Codex, or the Chaos Demon codex - they have these Demons....bound inside vehicles. In fact the Demon book has a Vehicle that the demon took control over during the binding process.

Somehow the Grey Knights don't go to battle with the tools to take these things out. Ever.

So when they go to fight a demon incursion, once they notice a Soul Grinder on the field, they get in their Rhinos and...wait...they teleport away.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:
GKs weakness is the very few # of them that you will be fielding. GKs SHOULD be good at everything....You just have to pay for the ability.

Except Long Range anti tank imo. That should always be their weakness so that mech armies can run circles around them

Just Dave wrote:That and they're supposed to go around bashing Daemons, not tanks.

This kind of argument always struck me as ridiculously dumb, especially from a fluff standpoint.

In case you've never looked at the Chaos Marine Codex, or the Chaos Demon codex - they have these Demons....bound inside vehicles. In fact the Demon book has a Vehicle that the demon took control over during the binding process.

Somehow the Grey Knights don't go to battle with the tools to take these things out. Ever.

So when they go to fight a demon incursion, once they notice a Soul Grinder on the field, they get in their Rhinos and...wait...they teleport away.

GK have ways to deal with to deal with vehicles,but they force you to take different units and/or unorthodox options to do so. GK can still do TL Lascannon Dreads with or without a ML for tank busting. If you're running LR spam,then you've 2 TL Lascannons on the standard LR and Multi-Melta's on the LRC. You can give Melta-Bombs to your Brother-Captains and Justicars. You can give the Hammerhand psychic power to GK Hero's. TH/SS Termies will also wreck vehicles,and they seem to be fairly reliably in the new codex. It's not like there's nothing you can do against vehicles. It's just that to deal with heavier vehicles,you have to adjust your list accordingly and make compromises,which is how it should be. When you have powerful units that can just do everything,then the list pretty much makes itself.

Melissia wrote:If they do this to my Sisters codex I will cry.

I hope they leave all of the Inquisition aspects in the GK codex, because Sisters make a full army by themselves without adding in half-assed Guard elements.

Just need to expand the Sisters to meet fifth edition (something is definitely doable, even if it requires the creation of some new fluff).

I hope there'll be no ISTs, or 1 squad per Inquisitor. Otherwise People would just use it as an IG army with a few GK's or SoB's. And there isn't going to be a SoB AND GK codex, it'll be one big "Inquisition" codex. But you can still take SoB armies.

apparently-
Storm raven mini coming out.
Plastic GK's coming out.
Plastic GK hero mini.
GK dread mini/upgrade kit.
NFW's will be CCW's, unless the squad passes a psychic test that turn- then they're Force weapons.
Halberds are upgrades, counting as NFW's with +2 strength.
P.S: thanks to grey templar for the info


Automatically Appended Next Post:

The Hammer wrote:Does anybody remember a piece of rumor about a landraider with half its body being a cannon? or the one many gk flyer? any new rumours on that?

Maybe storm raven for GK's.

wolfshadow wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:GKTs as Elites (and Troops via Stern) are practically a given after Deathwing showed again that Termie Troops simply can't be broken.

I can't see GKTs as Fast, but a GKT Dev squad? Sure!

Do it!!!

@ your comment about the CMLs. Rumour has a wrist mounted CML for GKs might be available. It was mentioned in the warseer thread.

CML on wrists? Incredibly unimaginative and borcken, but it would be cool nevertheless.
And I so dearly hope about the whole "Annointed armour" thingy- re-rolling armour saves?

shrike wrote:And there isn't going to be a SoB AND GK codex, it'll be one big "Inquisition" codex.

GW has contradicted this, publicly and openly calling it "fanwank". Which is insulting, as no real fan would want it. But I digress. This rumor has been debunked so many times it's not funny. Time and time again, it's been repeatedly stated by every reliable source and even by official GW channels that there will be two separate codices. We really don't need to get into this godforsaken topic again.

Melissia wrote: Which is insulting, as no real fan would want it.

Yet I have seen it repeated over and over again till there was conformation for C:GK

Melissia wrote:Which is insulting, as no real fan would want it.

That's your opinion; I'd personally be fine with it. That said, it's not going to happen and both armies are probably better off as a result.

bhsman wrote:

Melissia wrote:Which is insulting, as no real fan would want it.

That's your opinion; I'd personally be fine with it. That said, it's not going to happen and both armies are probably better off as a result.

I would really hate to see a combined codex as it would ultimately wind up watering down the fluff that could be provided to both armies in separate codexes.

Which is why I said they'll be better off this way.

No really, it's my opinion? Gee, I was hoping noone would figure that out.

Jokes aside, let's get back on topic!

GK should definitely have some kind of Superheavy Landraider variant with TL Psycannons and Incinerators and stuff. Despite the arguments about Teleporting, what if the Enemy denied them the ability by teleport jamming. They would definitely have that and specialist Razorbacks with extra armour and TL Psycannons. Oh and a Venerable Dreadnought or two.

I know that all GK are Psykers but what about a "Blunt" a Non Psyker GK Hero a Man whose presence would be too painful for Daemons to Stand. A true Emperors Champion specifically to seek out the foulest of the Foul Daemons and "Brass them Up!"....GK's so Hard they make Diamonds look like Play dough....

Melissia wrote:

shrike wrote:And there isn't going to be a SoB AND GK codex, it'll be one big "Inquisition" codex.

GW has contradicted this, publicly and openly calling it "fanwank". Which is insulting, as no real fan would want it. But I digress. This rumor has been debunked so many times it's not funny. Time and time again, it's been repeatedly stated by every reliable source and even by official GW channels that there will be two separate codices. We really don't need to get into this godforsaken topic again.

sorry, it's just i've heard from GW staff members that it's gonna be a joint codex.

By GW staff members do you mean low level employees that don't know jack about gak?

Voodoo Boyz wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:
GKs weakness is the very few # of them that you will be fielding. GKs SHOULD be good at everything....You just have to pay for the ability.

Except Long Range anti tank imo. That should always be their weakness so that mech armies can run circles around them

Just Dave wrote:That and they're supposed to go around bashing Daemons, not tanks.

This kind of argument always struck me as ridiculously dumb, especially from a fluff standpoint.

In case you've never looked at the Chaos Marine Codex, or the Chaos Demon codex - they have these Demons....bound inside vehicles. In fact the Demon book has a Vehicle that the demon took control over during the binding process.

Somehow the Grey Knights don't go to battle with the tools to take these things out. Ever.

So when they go to fight a demon incursion, once they notice a Soul Grinder on the field, they get in their Rhinos and...wait...they teleport away.

Totally agree with you...

I mean most Chaose vehicles are supposed to have their machine spirit replaced with deamons. Heck, some of the best 40K Choas vehicle conversions I've seen represent this. And yet GKs aren't supposed to be able to take them out from long range? WTF? GKs having the ability to take out tanks is easily balanced by points cost. Think about how much a squad of GKs with CMLs would cost......

mwnciboo wrote:GK should definitely have some kind of Superheavy Landraider variant with TL Psycannons and Incinerators and stuff.

The problem is that Space Marine aerospace assets simply aren't made to deliver anything bigger than a Land Raider. The dropships/transports that move that kind of stuff around for the IG are sitting ducks compared to a Thunderhawk or a Strike Cruiser/Battlebarge. They've already got their own Land Raider Redeemer variant with Psycannons and Flamestorm Incinerators, but anything bigger isn't viable.

Melissia wrote:Yep. They want to make GKs the true Elite army. When you see a Grey Knight army put down their fifteenth model at 2000 points and then close their case, you'll ask them "going to fetch your other case?" and they'll say "no, that's it."

I'd be that guy. I'd probably get my ass kicked every time but I'd still do it just to see how big a bleeding chunk I could take out of the other guy's army before he took me down.

Jervis is the last person I would quote about what GW is/is not doing unless it appears in WD, he has straight out LIED about product releases at GDs and other personal appearances, the best example is, as always, Space Hulk. With Tempus Fugitives track record, I am willing to believe that GK's codex will be called Codex Grey Knights. I doubt they would call a combined codex by such a name but GW has done weird stuff before too.

It wasn't just JJ.

temprus wrote:Jervis is the last person I would quote about what GW is/is not doing unless it appears in WD, he has straight out LIED about product releases at GDs and other personal appearances, the best example is, as always, Space Hulk. With Tempus Fugitives track record, I am willing to believe that GK's codex will be called Codex Grey Knights. I doubt they would call a combined codex by such a name but GW has done weird stuff before too.

you should really read more.....

This thread's starting to get a bit ripe, and people are getting a bit testy...

Make every effort to stay on topic (checking the title will help here) and avoid insulting each other, regardless if said insults be of the direct or implied variety.

The Hammer wrote:Does anybody remember a piece of rumor about a landraider with half its body being a cannon? or the one many gk flyer? any new rumours on that?

That was posted by Stickmonkey months ago, but he hasn't talked about it in his more recent posts. At the same time he also talked about a heavier/armored land speeder vehicle. The Storm Raven is fairly obviously going to be the "big toy" to accompany the GK release.

Inquisitor still in. Carapace Armor, frag + krak, BP / CCW(possibly PW?), Psyk-out grenades.

Arco-Flaggellant now a henchman, has FNP.

Wargear is set up through the 3 schools(divisions?) of Ordos. No other information besides that unfortunately.

Schools of Ordos? In my GK?

They gonna be the same through very single inquisition related codex?

Ehh I guess I'm jumping to conclusions. There could be branches within the different ordos I suppose

Schools / Disciplines whatever, I can't find the right word at the minute. Whichever discipline you choose determines the wargear.

Perhaps this could indicate Radicals are still in? (maybe indirectly)

The school/discipline system I guess would be GW's ways of having varieties of inquisitors without allowing their variety or customization to overshadow or dominate the GK.

Oh my! That could definitely indicate their attitude or dogma- Puritans, Moderates, and Radicals. They would have very different gear, even within the same Ordos.

But I couldn't see GK being happy fighting with anyone other than a puritan. You only need a minute amount of warp taint to be purged by the GK. Tbh I was suprised you could have arco-flagellants in the current codex. I wouldn't use them, as I don't think it fits the fluff . . . but then this is my interpretation of what a GK would be like. So probably has no relation to what they're like in books or fluff I haven't read.

Oshova

Oshova wrote:But I couldn't see GK being happy fighting with anyone other than a puritan. You only need a minute amount of warp taint to be purged by the GK. Tbh I was suprised you could have arco-flagellants in the current codex. I wouldn't use them, as I don't think it fits the fluff . . . but then this is my interpretation of what a GK would be like. So probably has no relation to what they're like in books or fluff I haven't read.

Oshova

but gk 's themselves are warp tainted as they are all psykers

I don't know... A lot of this seems very unlikely and we are still pretty far out from the release date. I am still holding out for a pure Grey Knights book no matter how foolish that makes me...

Overwatch,

When the first rumons of the DE's weird Strength through Pain thing showed, I blew them off as unlikely as well.

With as big a pair of nuts as the DE were given, I wont feel bad in the least for having 3+/5+ rerolls with Discipline bonuses and Strength 6 Rending powerweapons that can drop out of the sky and still contest objectives while firing snot-rockets that ignore invuls and armor and explode for d6 wounds per model covered under the template.

GK's have been ignored for too long.

Indeed. And hell, even back in the day they weren't really as good as Dark Eldar were.

Oshova wrote:But I couldn't see GK being happy fighting with anyone other than a puritan. You only need a minute amount of warp taint to be purged by the GK. Tbh I was suprised you could have arco-flagellants in the current codex. I wouldn't use them, as I don't think it fits the fluff . . . but then this is my interpretation of what a GK would be like. So probably has no relation to what they're like in books or fluff I haven't read.

Oshova

Arco's weren't in the DH codex. They were in the WH 'dex. The DH codex DID have the Daemonhosts,but with the caveat that any DH army that included Daemonhosts couldn't also include GK's. You had to have an Inquisitor to take Daemonhosts,but if you did,the Inquisitor was branded a Radical and the GK refused to work with them.

And sadly, I think those days are gone!

Looks like the Ordo Malleus managed to finally clean up all those pesky Radicals!

No Daemonhosts? That is truly depressing. I really enjoyed running them against my opponents. they were a true measure of chaos theory on the board and made for some entertaining games. I am also saddened to hear that the assassins will be different.

I guess it remains to be seen regarding both as we are still in the rumors stage of the game. I have a large metal PA and Termie armored force of these guys and am looking forward to it being better able to stand on its own two feet.

The Assassins and Death Cultists and Daemon hosts were just an immense amount of flavor and while maybe not always effective, they were FUN to play.

I am currently very happy with the Dark Eldar release. I'm looking forward to blasting apart mech armies. I'm so tired of them now. Must DEEEESTROY!

Roundup of rumours on Warseer, everything all in one place. Most from StickMonkey, a few from others. This is a TLDR post as it contains ALL compiled rumours from the Warseer thread.
Thanks to jimbo1701 for trolling through 80 pages of thread to compile it.



Release date:

Originally January, now looking more like March.

Organisation/fluff:

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units. (penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask)

Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.

The organization of GKs chapter being fleshed out has opened a number of new "roles"

The relation of Ordos Malleus to the Inquisition is also expanded upon

Officio Assassinorum also has an interesting fluff piece...albeit very short

To respond to the WL of justicars being treated similar to WG, don't place bets on that.
It was apparent from my last contact Inq forces were still present...incl storm troopers...but there are other new units there as well. From everything I've been told/heard the focus has definately shifted to GK. Not as many options for Inq, Assassins combined to a single unit with wargear to dictate functional role, Inq retinue changes that will effectively kill the tried and true power tactic of shooting everything in sight as it DSs in. The utter removal of use of allies from other codex books, or inclusion of units from this book with other armies (Self contained...no surprises there.) Overall I always felt the prior incarnation was inquisition with a dash of GK. The feel I have now is reverse of that...but there will still be very effective Inq builds to be had...so far as I know.


Special rules:

Combat squads were an option I know was ptd.

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psychers beware.

Not a lot of Mech. But quick to deploy.

Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons. 'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

'Shrouding' basically unchanged...aka nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor? IDK)

'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into diff terrain.

'Aegis' enemy Psykers w/i 12" take psychic tests with +1d6

Chaos icons work to oppose Gk units teleport ability. A unit with a chaos icon will block the ability of Gk to teleport into battle within the icons area of influence. I'm hearing that there may also be other items that hinder this deployment tactic from other armies as well.


Wargear:

The new codex has new options (weapons, equipment, etc.) that will be included in those box sets.

Also, I under stand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.

Yes, beyond psycannon and incinerator, there are 2 other special gk weapons I know were ptd...but these I can't go into detail on at this time. I'll say one had pretty poor response from the pt group, but there could be some nice tactics developed to make it effective if it did move forward.

Corrected Psycannon profile:
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.

NFWs: NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same. I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from. From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves. Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works w/ SS. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)

The rumor I had earlier about "Annointed armor" got some additional legs with a small twist. Looks like this could be granted to a unit containing a Gk chaplain. Much like other chaplains elsewhere grant re-rolls on charges, the gk chaplains are rumored to grant counter attack and re-rolls of armor saves...caveat being the reroll is only 1st round of cc... It's a complex confirmation, and taken alone I'd pour salt on it, but given I've heard of the anointed armor prior and recent codexes have some charge related chaplain ability...I thought I'd go ahead and post it. It's definitely taking more realistic tones...

New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.


Army list:

Do not hold too tightly to past structures and expectations.

As far as TAGK as troops? I havent seen anything indicating this. However, I do recall a discussion of TAGK filling roles in two slots though, possible H and E.
The gk jet bike sketches did not look at all like sammaels...no plasma gun. Knights on them has nfw in lance style. Very bullet bike rider stance...ie leaning forward over bike, not upright like marine bikes. Had the swept front faring, but not wing motifs. Looked like tl storm bolters under slung beneath handles. Very aggressive looking. Too bad they got 86d.

according to a tiny bit I got overnight, GK TAs will have access to the standard marine upgrades, plus NFW, incinerators, psycannons, etc., of course. But he is saying the cyclone launcher for them will be arm mounted like their SBs. I'm very skeptical of this, but this source is close enough to know, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkerie as dt
Inq lord retinue looks more like ig command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have ig conscripts...like an ig platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry
chimeras or valks as dt only, and only ig
Valk only dt, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as ig, but not variants (Ed: ???)
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If gw did this, only the hq really separates it much from ig, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)
From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:

Including SCs, not including variant units ex. exterminator/demolished

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries

Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.


Playtesting:

GK 2000pt AL from PT:

HQ
GM w Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dread - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ????? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies

The PT list posted was played against 2k of Orks including nobs, mek with kff, lots of boys in trukks, a BW and dread mob. It was C&C with DoW.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in RB came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The SR took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs


Models:

The box sets should all be plastic.

The gk models are ornate.

The biggest issue you'll find with the TAs is scale. The new plastics are in scale with the other TA models. The metals are old scale sized. Its a noticable difference.

But even the AA marines look "bigger", though not to such a great extent, to me.

Once painted, the new models have better depth of detail IMO. And more small details not present in the metals. This is in both TA and AA. The best examples to look at are the Blood Angel plastics to understand how much detail can be crammed onto a figure, but still look good.

Plastics:

Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ??? (note, other sources say that a BA second wave containing storm raven and librarian/furioso dread are slated for a separate January release) I've had personal conversations with direct individuals, which would surprise me if the SR model was not a keystone of this release. I've personally seen a few mockups of the SR from the modelling teams, many more from the art team. I know what the final selected design is. It looks better than I imagined.

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner? Supposed options for all will be on sprue. Plus NFW will NOT all be halberds. But the exact nature of them was not revealed to me. If this pans out we could see a lot of weapon options in the sprue...a lot more than would be used. Assault Cannon, PsyCannon, Incinerator, SS, TH, NFWs, Cyclone launchers...seems like a lot to jam in, but if we look at SW and BA boxes those were loaded with bits. The GK TA sprues:

5 legs
6 torsos
8 heads
6 nfw
5 SB
unknown # Special Weapons (includeing SS), but if above holds it could be 6+
GK TA back banner
6-8 shoulder shields
12 shoulder pads
~12 upgrade bits (books, scrolls, crux terminus, etc.)
8 arm sets (sounds like the arms have no hands, similar to sanguinary guard)
4 hands (right/left?)
more?

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA. (see above) I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.

Blisters:

New Stern

New Chaplain?

Justicar upgrade character

Paladin upgrade character

Inquisition character

2 other blisters unknown contents

Other:

Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.

Yay more anti psychic abilities.. Another reason to keep my eldar in moth balls

Looks like a fun book tho

Well, if the nid FAQ is any predicter, the anti-psychic abilities won't work against mechanized infantry.

Any way to get the compiliation to the top of the first page?

THANK YOU for compiling it all.

wolfshadow wrote:and no SoB

And despite this, I bet even when the codex is out there's still going to be a bunch of ██████ running around claiming Sisters are in the book and that I can't play using my codex because they're in the new one. Just watch, it will happen, I have money riding on it.

Also, I under stand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.

Looks like GKs will be forced into the SM model of having set 10 strong squad numbers or else no special weapons.
Hope this is not true as such expensive models need flexibility in varied unit sizes.

The anointed armour is also strange, if it is not a wargear and is priced but all GKs have it...something doesnt seem right here.
Maybe it is a chaplain ability only then.

Vhalyar wrote:

The Hammer wrote:Does anybody remember a piece of rumor about a landraider with half its body being a cannon? or the one many gk flyer? any new rumours on that?

That was posted by Stickmonkey months ago, but he hasn't talked about it in his more recent posts.

Maybe it was a reference to the LR Achilles that was revealed at GD.

Pyriel - it said exactly the opposite, 1 special per 5 man - so 1 @5-9, 2@ 10 would be how I read that.

puma713 wrote:
Maybe it was a reference to the LR Achilles that was revealed at GD.

What is this Wonderous machine? The Land Raider Achilles? Is it week at the Achilles heel? Did finnaly own Paris?
Did it kill Hector? Did it steal a princess of Troy?
Or is it a badass land raider just called Achilles, because noone could think of a nongreek name?

Asherian Command wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Maybe it was a reference to the LR Achilles that was revealed at GD.

What is this Wonderous machine? The Land Raider Achilles? Is it week at the Achilles heel? Did finnaly own Paris?
Did it kill Hector? Did it steal a princess of Troy?
Or is it a badass land raider just called Achilles, because noone could think of a nongreek name?

None of the above. It's a Land Raider with a Thunderfire mounted in its hull.

Asherian Command wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Maybe it was a reference to the LR Achilles that was revealed at GD.

What is this Wonderous machine? The Land Raider Achilles? Is it week at the Achilles heel? Did finnaly own Paris?
Did it kill Hector? Did it steal a princess of Troy?
Or is it a badass land raider just called Achilles, because noone could think of a nongreek name?

What like the greek-named Annihilator, Destructor, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Redeemer, Crusader and Godhammer? Sure.

A thunderfire cannon?!?!?!? Genius!
I would love to have that for a land raider XD.
I'll make a new land raider.

wolfshadow wrote:

Spoiler:

Roundup of rumours on Warseer, everything all in one place. Most from StickMonkey, a few from others. This is a TLDR post as it contains ALL compiled rumours from the Warseer thread.
Thanks to jimbo1701 for trolling through 80 pages of thread to compile it.



Release date:

Originally January, now looking more like March.

Organisation/fluff:

Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units. (penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask)

Interesting bit here. Got to see some layout work on the new codex. I'll confirm the rumors of a fleshed out chapter org chart, but it's not your typical SM structure of 10 companies of 100 marines for sure.

The organization of GKs chapter being fleshed out has opened a number of new "roles"

The relation of Ordos Malleus to the Inquisition is also expanded upon

Officio Assassinorum also has an interesting fluff piece...albeit very short

To respond to the WL of justicars being treated similar to WG, don't place bets on that.
It was apparent from my last contact Inq forces were still present...incl storm troopers...but there are other new units there as well. From everything I've been told/heard the focus has definately shifted to GK. Not as many options for Inq, Assassins combined to a single unit with wargear to dictate functional role, Inq retinue changes that will effectively kill the tried and true power tactic of shooting everything in sight as it DSs in. The utter removal of use of allies from other codex books, or inclusion of units from this book with other armies (Self contained...no surprises there.) Overall I always felt the prior incarnation was inquisition with a dash of GK. The feel I have now is reverse of that...but there will still be very effective Inq builds to be had...so far as I know.


Special rules:

Combat squads were an option I know was ptd.

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psychers beware.

Not a lot of Mech. But quick to deploy.

Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons. 'Out the Heretic' is well received by PT

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

'Shrouding' basically unchanged...aka nightfighting...one source suggests possible grant 6+ cover save (commentary: does this work with Annointed armor? IDK)

'Rites of Exorcism' daemon units charging as if into diff terrain.

'Aegis' enemy Psykers w/i 12" take psychic tests with +1d6

Chaos icons work to oppose Gk units teleport ability. A unit with a chaos icon will block the ability of Gk to teleport into battle within the icons area of influence. I'm hearing that there may also be other items that hinder this deployment tactic from other armies as well.


Wargear:

The new codex has new options (weapons, equipment, etc.) that will be included in those box sets.

Also, I under stand there to be a standard 1 special weapon per 5 man squad, plus special options for the upgraded leader.

Yes, beyond psycannon and incinerator, there are 2 other special gk weapons I know were ptd...but these I can't go into detail on at this time. I'll say one had pretty poor response from the pt group, but there could be some nice tactics developed to make it effective if it did move forward.

Corrected Psycannon profile:
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.

NFWs: NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same. I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from. From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.

GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves. Annointed Armor is not wargear. Has point cost. Works w/ SS. Not as good at might seem...(aka something else to this rule I dont know yet)

The rumor I had earlier about "Annointed armor" got some additional legs with a small twist. Looks like this could be granted to a unit containing a Gk chaplain. Much like other chaplains elsewhere grant re-rolls on charges, the gk chaplains are rumored to grant counter attack and re-rolls of armor saves...caveat being the reroll is only 1st round of cc... It's a complex confirmation, and taken alone I'd pour salt on it, but given I've heard of the anointed armor prior and recent codexes have some charge related chaplain ability...I thought I'd go ahead and post it. It's definitely taking more realistic tones...

New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.


Army list:

Do not hold too tightly to past structures and expectations.

As far as TAGK as troops? I havent seen anything indicating this. However, I do recall a discussion of TAGK filling roles in two slots though, possible H and E.
The gk jet bike sketches did not look at all like sammaels...no plasma gun. Knights on them has nfw in lance style. Very bullet bike rider stance...ie leaning forward over bike, not upright like marine bikes. Had the swept front faring, but not wing motifs. Looked like tl storm bolters under slung beneath handles. Very aggressive looking. Too bad they got 86d.

according to a tiny bit I got overnight, GK TAs will have access to the standard marine upgrades, plus NFW, incinerators, psycannons, etc., of course. But he is saying the cyclone launcher for them will be arm mounted like their SBs. I'm very skeptical of this, but this source is close enough to know, so I thought I'd pass it along.

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkerie as dt
Inq lord retinue looks more like ig command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have ig conscripts...like an ig platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry
chimeras or valks as dt only, and only ig
Valk only dt, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as ig, but not variants (Ed: ???)
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If gw did this, only the hq really separates it much from ig, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)
From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:

Including SCs, not including variant units ex. exterminator/demolished

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries

Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.


Playtesting:

GK 2000pt AL from PT:

HQ
GM w Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dread - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ????? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies

The PT list posted was played against 2k of Orks including nobs, mek with kff, lots of boys in trukks, a BW and dread mob. It was C&C with DoW.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in RB came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The SR took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs


Models:

The box sets should all be plastic.

The gk models are ornate.

The biggest issue you'll find with the TAs is scale. The new plastics are in scale with the other TA models. The metals are old scale sized. Its a noticable difference.

But even the AA marines look "bigger", though not to such a great extent, to me.

Once painted, the new models have better depth of detail IMO. And more small details not present in the metals. This is in both TA and AA. The best examples to look at are the Blood Angel plastics to understand how much detail can be crammed onto a figure, but still look good.

Plastics:

Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ??? (note, other sources say that a BA second wave containing storm raven and librarian/furioso dread are slated for a separate January release) I've had personal conversations with direct individuals, which would surprise me if the SR model was not a keystone of this release. I've personally seen a few mockups of the SR from the modelling teams, many more from the art team. I know what the final selected design is. It looks better than I imagined.

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner? Supposed options for all will be on sprue. Plus NFW will NOT all be halberds. But the exact nature of them was not revealed to me. If this pans out we could see a lot of weapon options in the sprue...a lot more than would be used. Assault Cannon, PsyCannon, Incinerator, SS, TH, NFWs, Cyclone launchers...seems like a lot to jam in, but if we look at SW and BA boxes those were loaded with bits. The GK TA sprues:

5 legs
6 torsos
8 heads
6 nfw
5 SB
unknown # Special Weapons (includeing SS), but if above holds it could be 6+
GK TA back banner
6-8 shoulder shields
12 shoulder pads
~12 upgrade bits (books, scrolls, crux terminus, etc.)
8 arm sets (sounds like the arms have no hands, similar to sanguinary guard)
4 hands (right/left?)
more?

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA. (see above) I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.

Blisters:

New Stern

New Chaplain?

Justicar upgrade character

Paladin upgrade character

Inquisition character

2 other blisters unknown contents

Other:

Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.

(spoilered for size)

That was simply amazing. I peed a little bit

S_P

Melissia wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:and no SoB

And despite this, I bet even when the codex is out there's still going to be a bunch of ██████ running around claiming Sisters are in the book and that I can't play using my codex because they're in the new one. Just watch, it will happen, I have money riding on it.

There are always those. It falls under the whole 'wimmin needs ta be in ta kichin barefoot en pregnant' mentality of a certain subgroup of 40k players. I really love the ones who claim that female IG is non-canon because it only appears in BL.

BaronIveagh wrote:I really love the ones who claim that female IG is non-canon because it only appears in BL.

Wait

WHAT?

They should really read the Imperial Guard codex

Just Dave wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

puma713 wrote:
Maybe it was a reference to the LR Achilles that was revealed at GD.

What is this Wonderous machine? The Land Raider Achilles? Is it week at the Achilles heel? Did finnaly own Paris?
Did it kill Hector? Did it steal a princess of Troy?
Or is it a badass land raider just called Achilles, because noone could think of a nongreek name?

What like the greek-named Annihilator, Destructor, Vindicator, Whirlwind, Redeemer, Crusader and Godhammer? Sure.

That was what he was getting at. That he see it an out of nowhere naming convention that it should have had a name like "annihilator... etc."

The Rogue Trader era fluff mentions a number of Space Marine tanks with Greek names... the Land Raider Spartan which was the first variant that could transport terminators which even had rules or the Heracles/Hercules Battle tank which is only ever shown in art work.

o_O

Those look like SM superheavies.

Pyriel - it said exactly the opposite, 1 special per 5 man - so 1 @5-9, 2@ 10 would be how I read that.

Ah, you´re right.

Sadly the mini puragation squads are no longer possible so I fear we will see either full 10 man squads with 2 weapon options or 5 man squads and nothing in between.
Hopefully this is not what will happen since I cant see the reason of forcing set squad numbers to squads/armies where the cheapest mini will cost 25+ points a piece.

aka_mythos wrote:The Rogue Trader era fluff mentions a number of Space Marine tanks with Greek names... the Land Raider Spartan which was the first variant that could transport terminators which even had rules or the Heracles/Hercules Battle tank which is only ever shown in art work.

cool pic. what book is that from? i've got a sprinkling of books from rogue trader but have never seen that one. that might work as a baneblade conversion!

Its from one of the original rulebooks, I'm pretty sure.
For conversions look here... this guy did one:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267859.page

Yep I remember reading alot of greek names for Land Raiders. Thats why me and my friends make our variants of Land Raiders. And call them after angels and such.

aka_mythos wrote:Its from one of the original rulebooks, I'm pretty sure.
For conversions look here... this guy did one:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/267859.page

definitely a RT era pic from the style and designs but i'm curious which book specifically. it's not the original book because it doesn't make much mention of chaos (and i have it and am familiar with the pics) and i don't recall seeing it in the compendium either.

thats cool!

If I recall correctly it is from a epic rule book.

It appeared in a number of books. I know its in the Chapter Approved book and maybe Astronomicon... it was one of GWs few RT era 2 page spreads so GW reused it a bunch.

My sources say that the old splash page of the Hercules tank is from WD 120, I've never read WD 120 so I don't know for sure.

sonofruss wrote:If I recall correctly it is from a epic rule book.

Sounds right to me, the art style is reminiscent of many of the Epic piccies.

I was in the GW today and one of the staff there asked if I was looking forward to the upcoming new Grey Knights and I said I was. then, he proceded to mention that they were all going to be plastic (which I think is a given anyway right?) but he also said that GK and sisters were both going to be in the same codex.

Don't know where he got that from but I thought the general consensus was that sisters were getting their own codex later next year? The staff in the GW say they only know as soon as we know but he seemed pretty certain about this - I'm not sure I'd like them both in the same codex but it is what he said.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I was in the GW today and one of the staff there asked if I was looking forward to the upcoming new Grey Knights and I said I was. then, he proceded to mention that they were all going to be plastic (which I think is a given anyway right?) but he also said that GK and sisters were both going to be in the same codex.

Don't know where he got that from but I thought the general consensus was that sisters were getting their own codex later next year? The staff in the GW say they only know as soon as we know but he seemed pretty certain about this - I'm not sure I'd like them both in the same codex but it is what he said.

Take it with a grain of salt

It's not surprising, but at this point, we have enough information to know for sure that they will NOT be in the same book.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I was in the GW today and one of the staff there asked if I was looking forward to the upcoming new Grey Knights and I said I was. then, he proceded to mention that they were all going to be plastic (which I think is a given anyway right?) but he also said that GK and sisters were both going to be in the same codex.

Don't know where he got that from but I thought the general consensus was that sisters were getting their own codex later next year? The staff in the GW say they only know as soon as we know but he seemed pretty certain about this - I'm not sure I'd like them both in the same codex but it is what he said.

Black/Redshirts have NO clue of whats coming up. Any of them who do don't say anything 'cause they'd get fired.

That is an awesome image, thanks for sharing! I don't recall ever seeing it before and that's rare!

True, thanks for the image aka_mythos, if you have more of these gems to show us I´d appreciate it very much.

Is that a giant assault marine? Why would they go through the effort of making a titan look so humanoid? Where's they get such large bolters for him

Where'd that huge tire come from, while I'm on the subject?

I think that's the Assault marines bolter you've mistaken.

I'm drunk and being an ass. Ignore this.

ColdSadHungry wrote:I was in the GW today and one of the staff there asked if I was looking forward to the upcoming new Grey Knights and I said I was. then, he proceded to mention that they were all going to be plastic (which I think is a given anyway right?) but he also said that GK and sisters were both going to be in the same codex.

Don't know where he got that from but I thought the general consensus was that sisters were getting their own codex later next year? The staff in the GW say they only know as soon as we know but he seemed pretty certain about this - I'm not sure I'd like them both in the same codex but it is what he said.

Highly doubt it,based on all the rumors we've heard. The only way I could see it happening is if they threw a few SoB units in the army list for use as Inquistion allies,but there's no way they are combining the two armies into one codex. It doesn't make sense,from a fluff standpoint,and it's just waaaaaaayyyyyy to many plastic kits to get out that quickly. In addition to all the GK plastics,the crossover plastics[Stormraven,Libby Dread] that haven't yet been produced from the BA codex,and the =I= units,add plastic kits for your baseline SoB squads,Exorcist,Seraphim,Retributers,maybe even Repentia,plus new SoB units. We'd be waiting on mini's until the month before the next Dark Eldar codex drops if they did them like that.

And really, after the lack of plastics, the most important thing the Sisters need fixed is the lack of fluff in their codex. Sticking them in a codex with the GKs makes that less likely.

You have to remember that GW staff members have to be sure about everything they tell you . . . So when he sounded confident when telling you what he thought, it doesn't mean he's actually confident, it just means he is keeping his aura of authority, and supreme knowledge =D

Take this to questions about rules, tell you the wrong rules but make it sound right and confident, or use the age old "Have you looked it up in the rulebook?" =p

And . . . OMG! I want to buy GK . . . But there is no way I will be done with my DE by then . . . GRR! Damn you GW taking all my money, and yet still keeping me happy about being poor =p

Oshova

Me too!
GRR- Starting DKoK, but can't inish in time for GK!!!
AAAARGH!

I'd love to start GKs but only if they can have an assassin. I think I'll have to wait 'n' see.

Kind of threadomancy, but assassins are rumoured to be in.

Yeah...it was always strange to have to buy an inquisitor to be able to buy an assassin...if they're not in the GK codex then my vindicare will be collecting dust in the corner. You can't say that their assassin sales would go up if they weren't included in DH or SoB codecies, only inquisition.

I am very interested to see what this 'unknown walker' model is, and if it even exists. A special GK walker would be awesome, so long as it isn't just a penitent engine clone.

Ehsteve wrote:

I am very interested to see what this 'unknown walker' model is, and if it even exists. A special GK walker would be awesome, so long as it isn't just a penitent engine clone.

A Knight titan equipped for GK would be sweet.

IMO a Knight titan should have been done already. Im 40k scale it would only be about 6 inches tall, so it would be easy to do and keep in a good price range. Sales would be crazy...especially if the sold a chaos version, or at least a chaos bits pack for it. Would have been better than the plastic Baneblade IMO.

Mad4Minis wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

I am very interested to see what this 'unknown walker' model is, and if it even exists. A special GK walker would be awesome, so long as it isn't just a penitent engine clone.

A Knight titan equipped for GK would be sweet.

IMO a Knight titan should have been done already. Im 40k scale it would only be about 6 inches tall, so it would be easy to do and keep in a good price range. Sales would be crazy...especially if the sold a chaos version, or at least a chaos bits pack for it. Would have been better than the plastic Baneblade IMO.

someone homemade one in my opinion it"s awesome

A lot of people homemake Knights. I think an official one from GW would be totally boss though.

Brother SRM wrote:A lot of people homemake Knights. I think an official one from GW would be totally boss though.

Thats pretty much what Im saying. There have been some brilliant scratch builds, but I would be crazy over a real GW kit. Not an over priced Forgeworld resin deal, but a regular GW plastic kit. Given the likely size, bigger than a Monolith but smaller than a Stompa, I would think it would fall between them in price as well...say $75 GW retail. Id pony up for 2 at that price range.

Knight titan? really? that would be sweet! I love the look of titans and it would be great to see a little guy around the price range of a stompa!

Mukkin'About wrote:Knight titan? really? that would be sweet! I love the look of titans and it would be great to see a little guy around the price range of a stompa!

Probably will never happen, we are just wishing. As far as price range it could be done similar or less that a stompa, as it would be slightly smaller...someone in another thread said the proper size would be around 6 inches tall.

If only GW would do it.

Knights in the Grey Knights codex would make me feel GW's failed to grasp their own fluff... The only group with Knights are the feudal planets that surround a number of the older Forgeworlds. They have very strong ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus... and zero ties to the Grey Knights.

In the most outer edge of unlikely possibilities could GW give Grey Knights something like Knights? Yes, but they would never be "Knights" in the way they are described now just as power armor doesn't make anyone instantly into a Space Marine.

aka_mythos wrote:Knights in the Grey Knights codex would make me feel GW's failed to grasp their own fluff... The only group with Knights are the feudal planets that surround a number of the older Forgeworlds. They have very strong ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus... and zero ties to the Grey Knights.

In the most outer edge of unlikely possibilities could GW give Grey Knights something like Knights? Yes, but they would never be "Knights" in the way they are described now just as power armor doesn't make anyone instantly into a Space Marine.

We werent meaning adding them to the GK codex...we were talking in general they would be a cool model to have, just got a bit off topic.

actually there is a flip side - given that the knights have an aversion to being interred in dreads rather then burried, one could see where knight sized titans would in fact be a fair replacement for dreads. Certainly cant see a force like the grey knights utilizing any other type of Titan, and again, it would solve the dreadfluff issue...

Mad4Minis wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:A lot of people homemake Knights. I think an official one from GW would be totally boss though.

Thats pretty much what Im saying. There have been some brilliant scratch builds, but I would be crazy over a real GW kit. Not an over priced Forgeworld resin deal, but a regular GW plastic kit. Given the likely size, bigger than a Monolith but smaller than a Stompa, I would think it would fall between them in price as well...say $75 GW retail. Id pony up for 2 at that price range.

Not gonna happen since the BB is same price as stompa imo.

Knights in the Grey Knights codex would make me feel GW's failed to grasp their own fluff... The only group with Knights are the feudal planets that surround a number of the older Forgeworlds. They have very strong ties to the Adeptus Mechanicus... and zero ties to the Grey Knights.

Dunno, the connection between Grey Knights and/or titans - mechanicus might be closer then we think.
The inquisition (with heavy admech help I assume) keeps a division or more of PSI titans.
There is even old "epic" fluff on those and while not much is said there is a logical room for having a more or less close ties between the GK and part of =I= administrated admech titan forces.

If rumors of GK jetbikes float and maybe the GKs will even get jetbikes then some access to "secret" admech wargear must indeed take place.

Pyriel- wrote:
If rumors of GK jetbikes float and maybe the GKs will even get jetbikes then some access to "secret" admech wargear must indeed take place.

This rumor was determined to be a unit concept that GW play tested early on, but more recent rumors have said it was dropped.

Pyriel- wrote:
Dunno, the connection between Grey Knights and/or titans - mechanicus might be closer then we think. The inquisition (with heavy admech help I assume) keeps a division or more of PSI titans. There is even old "epic" fluff on those and while not much is said there is a logical room for having a more or less close ties between the GK and part of =I= administrated admech titan forces.

The Adeptus Mechanicus connection is more the shtick of the Deathwatch. The Inquisition doesn't maintain the Psi-titans. They are still under the control of Collegia Titanica, and while they might be dispatched to aid, they aren't part of the same hierarchy. The Grey Knights may in the very edge of possibilities have some, but it would be rather silly for GW to remove allies in attempt to focus on Grey Knights just to steer off course and add what would be an ally.

The Psi-titans were operated by the Divisio Telepathica, not the Grey Knights. They are all warlord class titans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Carlovonsexron wrote:actually there is a flip side - given that the knights have an aversion to being interred in dreads rather then burried, one could see where knight sized titans would in fact be a fair replacement for dreads.

Yes, but this is why they're rumored to be getting their own version of the penitent engine.

It doesnt really matter what the fluff from the past says.

Dark Eldar just got a MASSIVE fluff overhaul you know.

GW doesnt really care about the fluff...so long as they sell their models. If they can change the fluff around to help sell the newest kit along with giving it banging rules...they will.

Knights dont need to be added to a specific list, they only need to produce a data sheet for them and publish in white dwarf. They could always do at same time as GK release and keep everyone happy, and as a larger kit with lots of possibilities for weopen swap options like in Baneblade kit will mean loads of profit for just making the one base kit. so keeps the accountant happy as well as us fans.

I think at this point FW should just do a book called "Adeptus Titanicus" and include rules for Titan class units of every race (that has them) for use in 40k... and then make those models available.

Knights are great, and I do love them, but tying them to GK's would be... odd.

And really, how many times does the phrase "Knight Titans" have to be written before Platuan4th is successfully summoned?!?

bubblesflood wrote:Knights dont need to be added to a specific list, they only need to produce a data sheet for them and publish in white dwarf. They could always do at same time as GK release and keep everyone happy, and as a larger kit with lots of possibilities for weopen swap options like in Baneblade kit will mean loads of profit for just making the one base kit. so keeps the accountant happy as well as us fans.

Thats what Im saying. A base kit with options for Paladin and other versions would sell like crazy. I think it would outsell all the other Apoc vehicles. It wouldnt take much to do a chaos version too.

Too bad GW doesnt listen to its customers. Id say start a thread (and one on the other similar sites) and get some excitement, maybe they would start something rolling on it. Then I remember it is GW we are talking about. Hell for $75-$100 retail Id get a couple.

If thats what you're saying, despite its merit, you're openly admitting to taking this topic off topic. Please stop. Start a new thread in the general discussion area and let this one focus on the original topic.

The Adeptus Mechanicus connection is more the shtick of the Deathwatch. The Inquisition doesn't maintain the Psi-titans. They are still under the control of Collegia Titanica, and while they might be dispatched to aid, they aren't part of the same hierarchy. The Grey Knights may in the very edge of possibilities have some, but it would be rather silly for GW to remove allies in attempt to focus on Grey Knights just to steer off course and add what would be an ally.

The Psi-titans were operated by the Divisio Telepathica, not the Grey Knights. They are all warlord class titans.

I wouldnt like the fluff if it turned out that the GKs keep titans, nor would I think it is logical.
All I´m saying is that given the importance of the Grey Knights and the inquisitorial weight they can throw around (isnt one of the Grand masters also a lord of terra if I remember correctly?)
it wouldnt be to far fetched if there is some sort of clandestine rapid reaction PSI titan force standing by on mars that can be dispatched with haste along GK forces if the situation is deemed severe enough.

so the GK jet bikes got dropped? that makes me sad... what do you wanna bet though the rules will be in the codex but GW will never make a model for them. though hopefully GK rhinos will be in, makes troops a bit more survivable

Could someone link where the gk jetbikes got dropped? What would their fast attack choices be then? If that's true, I would be a sad panda indeed. Was looking forward to those, lol

mjl7atlas wrote:Could someone link where the gk jetbikes got dropped? What would their fast attack choices be then? If that's true, I would be a sad panda indeed. Was looking forward to those, lol

I know I've seen on these forums where it was said that GK jetbikes got dropped. It's probably in one of the old GK rumor threads.

Given that the Stormraven is mentioned as being pioneered by the GK in the BA codex,I would say that GK Assault Squads with Jump Packs are pretty much a certainty. We'll also probably see the GK PA Teleport squads in the FA slot unless they give teleport to the baseline troops. It woudn't be out of the realm of possibility to see GK Landspeeders and or Bikes,either.

Then you're just playing Space Marines, but with more expensive troops. I think they're trying to lean away from that... and make Grey Knights into a small model count army that can actually stand up to MSU.

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:s though hopefully GK rhinos will be in, makes troops a bit more survivable

I would think that was a given. Sure Land Raiders are nice, but it would seem a little silly to have that as the only transport choice. Then again arent GK most commonly teleported or dropped directly into battle? Since they dont do normal SM things like combat patrol it would also make sense for them to not have much in the way of ground transportation. Guess it could go either way.


As far as a FA option if there are no jet bikes...a Land Speeder set up for GK would make sense.

Alpharius wrote:Knights are great, and I do love them, but tying them to GK's would be... odd.

And really, how many times does the phrase "Knight Titans" have to be written before Platuan4th is successfully summoned?!?

Shazam!

My sensors must have been thrown off because of it being a Grey Knight thread and therefore easily giving false positives.

*Ahem*

Knights aren't Titans!

Platuan4th wrote:
Knights aren't Titans!

That is a semantic point, that is tangential to the discussion. It doesn't matter if Knights are not technically titans. The point in calling them such is to differentiate them from "Knights" in the Bretonnian/Fantasy sense since they aren't widely supported by GW. To call them "Titans" is more a short hand for saying they look and operate similarly to titans, within a similar organizational structure, and on a similar scope to convey that imagery on to the unit and quickly convey what they are.

aka_mythos wrote:

Platuan4th wrote:
Knights aren't Titans!

That is a semantic point, that is tangential to the discussion. It doesn't matter if Knights are not technically titans. The point in calling them such is to differentiate them from "Knights" in the Bretonnian/Fantasy sense since they aren't widely supported by GW. To call them "Titans" is more a short hand for saying they look and operate similarly to titans, within a similar organizational structure, and on a similar scope to convey that imagery on to the unit and quickly convey what they are.

Actually, it's more because it's become an inside joke with Alph and myself, but it's easy to miss if you haven't been in the right P&M threads.

Ha ha, too true!

Still, to stay on topic, I don't think GK's will be getting Knights of Any Sort.

But then, I hadn't even seen the Jet Bike rumor either, so what do I know?

Alpharius wrote:Still, to stay on topic, I don't think GK's will be getting Knights of Any Sort.

Apart from the Grey ones, of course.

Therein was the joke!

It is interesting to watch rumor threads spiral out of control though, to a point...

Current BOLS Rumor Roundup on GK:

1) Further reinforcement of this being a Grey Knight/Inquisition book. Almost all the chatter has died down regarding inducted IG, and allied Space Marines. This is fundamentally said to be an Astartes book with some flavoring added in.

2) Lots of talk of the book containing all Grey Knights units with only Imperial Assassins and Inquisitors w/retinues as choices not hailing from Titan.

3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.

4) As you would imagine from #2 above a lot of units from the current Daemonhunters codex are missing. Daemonhosts, DeathCult Assassins, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all supposedly being wrapped into the Inquisitor's retinue options along with all the old favorites. These retinue units have many, many, exotic options (said to easily outstrip the Dark Eldar Archon's retinue options).

5) Lots of all new psychic powers all around, including Grey Knight Vehicles who are said to be difficult to stop.

6) Stormraven is a GO! It is also said to fulfill a critical role in the codex with the Grey Knight infantry having little access to "traditional" heavy and special weapons found in other Marine books.

7) LOTS of new independent characters, and tons of new Grey Knight fluff.

8) Continued chatter of both GK Terminators and powered armored versions as troops.

9) Talk places this codex at the new extreme of "elite" armies, in the 40k metagame diametrically opposed to horde type play.

10) Talk still points to March 2011 for this one.

I was just looking at the list on BoLS a little while ago. I find the March date interesting because GW has announced formally already that it's Skaven in January and Blood Angels in February. I recently saw talk of Orcs And Goblins on this very forum for March. I have heard GW wanted to get Grey Knights out for December and just couldn't quite do it, so some rearranging of the release schedule would make sense. Releasing the Stormraven in Feb. and then another army that uses it in March would certainly boost sales of that kit sky high. And some people said the Stormraven couldn't fly.

wolfshadow wrote:6) Stormraven is a GO! It is also said to fulfill a critical role in the codex with the Grey Knight infantry having little access to "traditional" heavy and special weapons found in other Marine books.

This just seems to reinforce my sincere belief that the GK Stormraven will have weapon options the BA Stormraven doesn't.

aka_mythos wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:6) Stormraven is a GO! It is also said to fulfill a critical role in the codex with the Grey Knight infantry having little access to "traditional" heavy and special weapons found in other Marine books.

This just seems to reinforce my sincere belief that the GK Stormraven will have weapon options the BA Stormraven doesn't.

I would bet on a universal kit that comes with all options. The reason the only pic shown so far is BA would be because at this point all things GK is still hush hush.

Im liking the sound of GK as a super elite army. Double so for the idea of Termies as troops. An army based on termies would knock my Necrons back to being a secondary army for me.

That would lead to termie overload in my house...im already working on an army of them for use with a different game system.

I agree it will be one kit, but that the BA players maybe left wondering why "these other weapons are on the sprue." Then again the difference could always be a matter of different missiles without any physical difference in model.

The interesting bit for me was 'hard to stop' GK vehicles, with Psy powers.

That opens up all sorts of interesting options.

aka_mythos wrote:I agree it will be one kit, but that the BA players maybe left wondering why "these other weapons are on the sprue." Then again the difference could always be a matter of different missiles without any physical difference in model.

Either that (which is most likely) or an additional weapon sprue?

So, psyk-out missiles?

An additional sprue for the GK weapons would mean its two different kits. Given the Stormraven is already going to be as big as a Valkyrie and cost $62, does it need a second kit for GK with another sprue? I imagine any special GK bits will just be stuck on the sprue, tucked away to fill in unused space.

Do we have a date for this codex? Because someone mentioned that GK might be January.

Sorry if I've missed it on an earlier page, but is there any indication of who's writing this Codex?

aka_mythos wrote:An additional sprue for the GK weapons would mean its two different kits. Given the Stormraven is already going to be as big as a Valkyrie and cost $62, does it need a second kit for GK with another sprue? I imagine any special GK bits will just be stuck on the sprue, tucked away to fill in unused space.

Yeah, true.

The more I read, the more I believe that the GK "Stormraven" will NOT have different weapons, or if it does they either won't be in the kit (hello special direct only sprue!) or they will be different names/effects but look the same (the missile thing mentioned earlier)...

About the only really different option I could see would be Psycannons. And 2 psycannons for the nose mount wouldt take up much room on a sprue.

Psych-Out missiles could have a different nosecone color to differentiate them from deathstrike missles. Not like its a big deal.

I suspect that GW will try to combine the BA and GK units into one kit for the sake of expediency, and manufacturing costs. ( i.e. storm raven, libby dread)

It would seem likely to me that GW would simply combine GK and SoB into one codex, with guard acting as the backbone, inq as HQ, and SoB and GK as elites and elite troops.

Happygrunt wrote:Do we have a date for this codex? Because someone mentioned that GK might be January.

March.

Raptorkid wrote:Sorry if I've missed it on an earlier page, but is there any indication of who's writing this Codex?

Matt Ward.

prime12357 wrote:I suspect that GW will try to combine the BA and GK units into one kit for the sake of expediency, and manufacturing costs. ( i.e. storm raven, libby dread)

It would seem likely to me that GW would simply combine GK and SoB into one codex, with guard acting as the backbone, inq as HQ, and SoB and GK as elites and elite troops.

Not happening. Guard are barely in this codex at all from what's been said; it really is Codex: Grey Knights, not Codex: Daemon Hunters.

aka_mythos wrote:An additional sprue for the GK weapons would mean its two different kits. Given the Stormraven is already going to be as big as a Valkyrie and cost $62, does it need a second kit for GK with another sprue? I imagine any special GK bits will just be stuck on the sprue, tucked away to fill in unused space.

I believe thats pretty much what we were saying. Im guessing at least a version of the dreadnought psycannon. Possibly some doors or something with the GK/Inq symbols.

The dreadnought will almost invariably be combined with the BA librarian dreadnought. The book theme can be carried across easily, I suppose.

prime12357 wrote:I suspect that GW will try to combine the BA and GK units into one kit for the sake of expediency, and manufacturing costs. ( i.e. storm raven, libby dread)

It would seem likely to me that GW would simply combine GK and SoB into one codex, with guard acting as the backbone, inq as HQ, and SoB and GK as elites and elite troops.

I can only hope that the rumour are true and that an Inq army, like the one listed in the first post, is available, as thats what I really want to play. A cheap elite guard army that can have greyknights. But maybe it will be like c:sm, and multiple lists are viable. Prue Inquisition, Prue Grey Knights, and a mix.

I guess we'll see...
I'll end up buying in any case...

Brother SRM wrote:Matt Ward.

That's not how you spell Robin Cruddace.

bhsman wrote:

Brother SRM wrote:Matt Ward.

That's not how you spell Robin Cruddace.

Can someone provided a source for the author then? Didnt Matt Ward write the Sace Marine 5th edition book?



By the way, I loled.

I've been hearing a late 2011 Matt Ward-Tau rumor, so my money would also be on Cruddance.

May this codex be as well balanced as his last. :p

Slackermagee wrote:I've been hearing a late 2011 Matt Ward-Tau rumor, so my money would also be on Cruddance.

May this codex be as well balanced as his last. :p

I dont get it, what was his last codex?

Finaly! Those poor Inqusition players finaly getting something new. (I don't play Inqustion,but,ya.)

Mad4Minis wrote:Possibly some doors or something with the GK/Inq symbols.

I imagine that it could go one of two ways... either sets of GK and BA icons to glue on or just generic Imperial iconography, I hope the former.

Happygrunt wrote:

Slackermagee wrote:I've been hearing a late 2011 Matt Ward-Tau rumor, so my money would also be on Cruddance.

May this codex be as well balanced as his last. :p

I dont get it, what was his last codex?

Nids

Slackermagee wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

Slackermagee wrote:I've been hearing a late 2011 Matt Ward-Tau rumor, so my money would also be on Cruddance.

May this codex be as well balanced as his last. :p

I dont get it, what was his last codex?

Nids

which were epic fail.... i expect the same for the GK

aka_mythos wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Possibly some doors or something with the GK/Inq symbols.

I imagine that it could go one of two ways... either sets of GK and BA icons to glue on or just generic Imperial iconography, I hope the former.

Could be like the Drop Pods. Bare, with an option of generic Astartes/Imperium of Man iconography or Chapter specific stuff.

Slackermagee wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

Slackermagee wrote:I've been hearing a late 2011 Matt Ward-Tau rumor, so my money would also be on Cruddance.

May this codex be as well balanced as his last. :p

I dont get it, what was his last codex?

Nids

Shouldnt be THAT bad then. Could be worse...

"...this is going to be like wiki leaks of (Grey Knights) info."

bhsman wrote:"...this is going to be like wiki leaks of (Grey Knights) info."

The question is, do I sign up, or should I wait 5 minutes for the information to be re posted here...?

I signed up for gits and shiggles, but I suppose there's nothing to lose from waiting...

bhsman wrote:I signed up for gits and shiggles, but I suppose there's nothing to lose from waiting...

You are now officially required to post your findings here.

We'll see how it goes. Considering the number of people signed up already, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm beaten to the punch.

From Bols http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/11/40k-rumors-grey-knight-chatter.html

1) Further reinforcement of this being a Grey Knight/Inquisition book. Almost all the chatter has died down regarding inducted IG, and allied Space Marines.  This is fundamentally said to be an Astartes book with some flavoring added in.

2) Lots of talk of the book containing all Grey Knights units with only Imperial Assassins and Inquisitors w/retinues as choices not hailing from Titan.

3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.

4) As you would imagine from #2 above a lot of units from the current Daemonhunters codex are missing.  Daemonhosts, DeathCult Assassins, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all supposedly being wrapped into the Inquisitor's retinue options along with all the old favorites.  These retinue units have many, many, exotic options (said to easily outstrip the Dark Eldar Archon's retinue options).

5) Lots of all new psychic powers all around, including Grey Knight Vehicles who are said to be difficult to stop.

6) Stormraven is a GO! It is also said to fulfill a critical role in the codex with the Grey Knight infantry having little access to "traditional" heavy and special weapons found in other Marine books.

7) LOTS of new independent characters, and tons of new Grey Knight fluff.

8) Continued chatter of both GK Terminators and powered armored versions as troops.

9) Talk places this codex at the new extreme of "elite" armies, in the 40k metagame diametrically opposed to horde type play.

10) Talk still points to March 2011 for this one.

4) As you would imagine from #2 above a lot of units from the current Daemonhunters codex are missing. Daemonhosts, DeathCult Assassins, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all supposedly being wrapped into the Inquisitor's retinue options along with all the old favorites. These retinue units have many, many, exotic options (said to easily outstrip the Dark Eldar Archon's retinue options).

My whole army reduced to a Retinue.

Thanks GW. Now I almost know how Squat players feel... oh wait, sorry, I already know how they feel. I play LatD.

I signed up as well.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

MajorTom11 wrote:From Bols http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2010/11/40k-rumors-grey-knight-chatter.html

1) Further reinforcement of this being a Grey Knight/Inquisition book. Almost all the chatter has died down regarding inducted IG, and allied Space Marines.  This is fundamentally said to be an Astartes book with some flavoring added in.

2) Lots of talk of the book containing all Grey Knights units with only Imperial Assassins and Inquisitors w/retinues as choices not hailing from Titan.

3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.

4) As you would imagine from #2 above a lot of units from the current Daemonhunters codex are missing.  Daemonhosts, DeathCult Assassins, Inquisitorial Stormtroopers are all supposedly being wrapped into the Inquisitor's retinue options along with all the old favorites.  These retinue units have many, many, exotic options (said to easily outstrip the Dark Eldar Archon's retinue options).

5) Lots of all new psychic powers all around, including Grey Knight Vehicles who are said to be difficult to stop.

6) Stormraven is a GO! It is also said to fulfill a critical role in the codex with the Grey Knight infantry having little access to "traditional" heavy and special weapons found in other Marine books.

7) LOTS of new independent characters, and tons of new Grey Knight fluff.

8) Continued chatter of both GK Terminators and powered armored versions as troops.

9) Talk places this codex at the new extreme of "elite" armies, in the 40k metagame diametrically opposed to horde type play.

10) Talk still points to March 2011 for this one.

About 2 pages late there Major.

It's not his fault. Taco Bell exists within a time dilation field so when they post something as 'news', sometimes two weeks after it was initially reported here or at Whineseer or where ever, it's not really their fault. To us, they appear to be moving slowly, but for them everything is normal speed.

And then someone copies it from them to us, and then we get to play the game of whether they'll re-re-report the news again on their own front page (taken from us taken from them and taken from us again). It's fun!

More reiterating that I posted the same thing 2 pages before.
And I blatantly steal stuff from everywhere I can find it and repost it if it hasnt been posted yet.

Those Blood of Kittens rumours are starting to become available.

Warseer link

Some of them have a distict 'smell' to them. Most feel on the ball.

Like the idea of "Blessed hull'.

http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2010/12/01/network-news-grey-knight-leaks-rumors-part-1/

Here is the direct link to BoK stuff =)

And here it is reposted:

The GK will play completely different from any Marine dex before. This is going to be the elite army of elite armies you can run a 2000 point army with as little as 20 models and still have a good chance of winning games. Now on to the leaks!

Here is some clarification of the big rumors that have been floated around the Internet concerning the GK codex.

1. GK codex WILL NOT have inducted units. Allies are effectively gone!

2. If it has boobies it will not be in the GK codex if has man parts it will be in this dex. That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.

3. GK and GKT have plastic kits and will be troop choices.

4. Release Date is March-May window.

5. The Stormraven is in (duh) and along with Penitent Engines are currently the only two Fast Attacks slots in the dex.

6. Look for HQs changing the FoC around

7. GW will not take away your toys meaning if you bought 50 Imperial Storm Troopers they will have a place in the GK codex

8. Assassins are in as an Elite slot and any type of GK army can take them.

Let us start with the mundane stuff

GKs are Space Marines they do not have Fearless or Stubborn they have Combat Tactics and They Shall Know No Fear

GKs only vehicles options are Land Raiders, Razorbacks, Rhinos, Chimera and Stormraven. All GK vehicles are immune to Shaken and Stunned. Stormraven is not a dedicated Transport.

GKs do not get Bikes, Jump Packs, or Chaplains

All GKs are psyker and their powers act very much in the same way as Psyker Battle Squad.

GKs will not have access to most Vanilla Marine Gear especially Heavy Weapons and Special Weapons (No Melta Spamming)

Let us get down to some specifics

Brother-Captain Stern has Eternal Warrior and his attacks can remove models from play.

The Grand Master gives out special abilities to GK units (Not USRs) We are talking weapon upgrades and minor wargear bonuses.

All GKs cause Deep Striking units to mishap if placed within 6 inches of any Grey Knight unit.

All GKs Nemesis Force Weapons are Force Weapons and no longer Str 6.

Unlike the Archon’s court from the Dark Eldar Codex Henchman + Witchhunter rejects are Elite slots. These Squads can be mixed and have many options. For instance the Warrior can get Storm Shields and power weapon. Henchman act more like Beast Master Squads than the Archon’s Court.

Henchman include everything Daemonhosts, Death-Cult Assassins, Argo flagellants, Priests, Stormtroopers, Warriors

Holocaust is now 12 inch large blast

Mystic is now only a teleport homer

All GK vehicles are immune to Shaken and Stunned (Sacred Hull). Stormraven is not a dedicated Transport. All GK vehicles are psykers with LD 10

Blessed is now a vehicle psychic power that picks one facing and raises the AV by 2 to a max of 14

GKs have access to GK Command Squads giving them access to Apothecaries (FNP)

Vindicare has unlimited ammo for all special shots.

Okie guys this does it for Part 1 of Grey Knight rumors. Everyone still has time to join the Grey Knight rumor group by registering with BoK. Come back in about 10 hours when the second wave of leaks are spilled for your enjoyment found only on the Blood of Kittens Network.

H.B.M.C. wrote:It's not his fault. Taco Bell exists within a time dilation field so when they post something as 'news', sometimes two weeks after it was initially reported here or at Whineseer or where ever, it's not really their fault. To us, they appear to be moving slowly, but for them everything is normal speed.

And then someone copies it from them to us, and then we get to play the game of whether they'll re-re-report the news again on their own front page (taken from us taken from them and taken from us again). It's fun!

I just hate when the Taco Bell of Lost souls repeats something they copied and everyone says its proof that rumor has be reaffirmed by another source and should be treated as somehow more valid than when it was posted here or Warseer first.

Those blood of kitten leaks are so much better than those stupid diplomatic cables...

MajorTom11 wrote:3)Speaking of Inquisitors, they are said to reflect the entirety of the Inquisition (whatever that means), as opposed to the previous codex's "Daemonhunters" focus.

This is great news for Sisters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.

Wait what? Why should they be in? These aren't part of the Inquisition or Grey Knights.

This sounds awesome.

I am so going to do a GK army using the heaps of first edition Spulk figures I have lying around.

If the rumors are true, and you can really make a 20 model 2,000 point army, I think that everyone will buy a Grey Knight army. GW can recoup their expenses with codex sales.

Gitzbitah wrote:If the rumors are true, and you can really make a 20 model 2,000 point army, I think that everyone will buy a Grey Knight army. GW can recoup their expenses with codex sales.

They wouldn't need to do that: if GW deigned to not screw us on price, the Grey Knights could be the perfect second army. The TAGK box would sell like hotcakes.

Melissia wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:That means Penitent Engines, Argo flagellants, Priests are in.

Wait what? Why should they be in? These aren't part of the Inquisition or Grey Knights.

From whats been said its a penitent engine piloted by a grey knight, so it might not be an identical unit. The Priest I think you can assume are tag alongs for the limited guardsmen selection... coming from the same regiment. The Argo Flagellants, are a bit weird to include I agree, but my guess is its to make up for daemonhosts... which I believe are gone. My guess is that GW in an attempt to move towards more plastics wants Archo-flagellants to be done in plastic, so are including them in the Grey Knights book just to open up more avenues of sales. It will be interesting to see if SoB get anything new out of this separate codex but commingled unit choices.

aka_mythos wrote: The Argo Flagellants, are a bit weird to include I agree, but my guess is its to make up for daemonhosts... which I believe are gone.

According to the BoK rumors, daemonhosts can be chosen as a part of the retinue, along with arco-flagellants.

No IST... no conscripted guard? Uhhh.... wat

Wow, those are some nice rumours I have to say. The +2 armour for vehicle facing in addition to the 'mishap if you deep strike within melta double pen range of my vehicle' ON TOP OF THE immunity to shakens and stuns makes the GK vehicles badass. Now it's all down to the points costs. If they cost about the same as BA vehicles this might become the king of all vehicle spam lists. Especially if the GK stormtroopers/ig guys have access to double/triple meltas. Be the mech GK a triple/whatever AV14 Stormraven army or just AV13 Razor/AV14 Chimera spam, you can colour me interested.

The implication of a 20 model, 2,000 point army is that all these marvellous buffs will be very expensive.

But that is the point. A very tough army with a low model count will present new tactical challenges to both sides.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And therefore attractive for playing interest as well as portability.

People with mid-range armies like Tyranids, SMs or Tau might seriously consider a GK army to be carried at the same time.

Also with so few models, it will be worth putting extra effort into the conversion and painting.

AlexHolker wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:If the rumors are true, and you can really make a 20 model 2,000 point army, I think that everyone will buy a Grey Knight army. GW can recoup their expenses with codex sales.

They wouldn't need to do that: if GW deigned to not screw us on price, the Grey Knights could be the perfect second army. The TAGK box would sell like hotcakes.

I'D buy some

It is interesting, but it is also hard to see GW getting behind low model count armies.

Unless everything in them is really expensive.

Well, more expensive then usual...