Looked for a GK thread, and didn't see one.


Pinched from Stickmonkeys most excellent post over @ Warseer. (TY Stick!)


So this actually addresses much of the inquisition in gk questions:

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkerie as dt
Inq lord retinue looks more like ig command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have ig conscripts...like an ig platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry
chimeras or valks as dt only, and only ig
Valk only dt, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as ig, but not variants (Ed: ???)
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If gw did this, only the hq really separates it much from ig, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)

Cheers

Edit: penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask.

Where is the Stormraven? My take is that a Stormraven kit is one of the principal drivers behind doing the Grey Knight codex (the other being the popularity of the Grey Knight Terminators).

This doesn't look right to me.

Seems like a very interesting way to incorporate the Inquisition without too much of a regular army feel. The omission of platoons and Leman Russes will put the emphasis on specialized troops for a specific task. I thought that all of the rumors were pointing directly away from an INQ/GK dex. Ah well, as long as it does have some GKs I'll be satisfied.

Tailgunner wrote:Where is the Stormraven? My take is that a Stormraven kit is one of the principal drivers behind doing the Grey Knight codex (the other being the popularity of the Grey Knight Terminators).

This doesn't look right to me.

This is just in addition to the stuff already rumored for GKs.
IE: GK termies, PA GKs, Walker-thingie....


Previous rumors that Stickmonkey posted:


Codex: there is much less focus on Inquisition aspects, and no SoB. No Allies. A GK army.



Boxes:
Storm Raven. obvious choice. Options for BA, GK and ???

TA knights: 5 pack, Paladin upgrades, squad upgrades. Psycannon, NFW, SSTH, banner?

PA knights: 10 pack, justicar upgrades, squad upgrades, extra bits. NFW, psycannon, incinerator, banner?

walker: There have been some rumors of a GK driven walker. I have not personally seen this in any incarnation. However, there is a boxed walker of some type. I suspect this is a dreadnaught box set that will also have bits for BA.

Tank: I have not seen mention of a GK troop transport. Rhino based with psycannon options has been in some PT. I list this as possible, but unlikely, 4 box sets of this size are about par for a release, 5 would be a surprise.



Blisters:
New Stern

New Chaplain?

Justicar upgrade character

Paladin upgrade character

Inquisition character

2 other blisters unknown contents



Other:
Later release of GK themed terrain set? Concepts are out and some "preview" shots are floating around if you hunt. Nothing more I can say on this.



Rule bits, these are very subject to revision, but not for much longer, to hit a Jan/Mar window codex needs to be tied up and sent to printers soon:

NFW lose the changing abilities based on rank of user. standardized to PA NFW is PW with special abilities vs Daemons, TA NFW is FW with same.

Some interesting Psychic abilities. just about all squads have psychic options. Heavy on they disabling side. Enemy psychers beware.

Not a lot of Mech. But quick to deploy.

Corrected Psycannon profile (updated 8-12-2010):
24" A3 AP3 S6, no invul saves, pinning test for units or models with psykers.
or 36" H1 AP4 S5 5" blast, no invul saves, no cover saves. (does not cause psyker pinning)

(updated 8-12-2010): Incinerator, no profile changes noted: S5 AP4 A1 template, no invul or cover saves.

(updated 8-12-2010): GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.


Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.

New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.

Added 8-3-2010:
The basic GK marine profile looks very similar to a SM sergeant.

The box sets should all be plastic.

I've seen other people posting rumors of a penitent engine style walker, with a PAGK driver...I have absolutely no confirmation of such a beast. However, if GW wanted to avoid the cries of "GK dont have Dreads, it isnt fluffy" that could be a way...

While External Allies rules are gone by all accounts, it does not mean allies in the codex are gone. Inquisition forces ARE present, just not as dominant. And you will recognize others.

A conversation earlier centered around an ability named "Out the Heretic" which could be used against non-daemon forces causing one unit to "count as" daemons.

Some models "may" be on display at GDUK.


Added 8-3-2010:
I've seen "other" sites reporting I said nfw gave wound daemons on 2+. I never said that. Not sure where that is coming from.

From what I know right now nfw will be +2S across the board as now, but pagks will all count as pw, and tagks will all count as fw. Then on top of that, all nfw gain additional capabilities vs daemons. Plus unit leaders may have master crafted nfw...not sure if it's upgrade or standard.


Added 8-9-2010:
GK 2000pt AL from PT:

HQ
GM w Retinue
Named character

Elite
5-man TAGK squad + 2 spec weapons
Dread - unknown configuration

Troop
2x 5-man PAGK squad + 1 spec weapon + razorback
10-man ????? squad + chimera

Fast
Storm Raven

No Heavies



Added 8-9-2010:
The PT list posted was played against 2k of Orks including nobs, mek with kff, lots of boys in trukks, a BW and dread mob. It was C&C with DoW.

GKs held most in reserve.
PAGKS in RB came in turn 2 and moved to boys flank. 1 squad got tarpitted with boys, the other fought thru boys to take objective 1.
unknown unit had HQ attached, spent game trading shots with dread mob until TAGKS arrived to help.
TAGKs TP in turn 4 and later assaulted Dread mob. 4 standing at end of game.
The SR took out one trukk turn 3 and the bw turn 5. Dread and HQ w retinue arrived in it and assaulted Nob mob. wiping it out in 1 round. then started after other boys.

It was reported as a pretty one sided battle. GKs nearly unassailable. GK win with 1 objective and second contested in turn 6. supposedly orks were close to 4:1 outnumbering GKs

Gitzbitah wrote:Seems like a very interesting way to incorporate the Inquisition without too much of a regular army feel. The omission of platoons and Leman Russes will put the emphasis on specialized troops for a specific task. I thought that all of the rumors were pointing directly away from an INQ/GK dex. Ah well, as long as it does have some GKs I'll be satisfied.

Well, one way of looking at it might be GK's get even more expensive and awesome, and inquisition units are needed to make the army playable at low point levels In very early editions you were looking at infantry to get your troop count up and then a couple grey knights of absolutely absurd power and cost (like 300+ points each model) they may be making a return to that, though I have a feeling marketing would never let an army that small see the public, they need to sell MOAR TROOPS

Hopefully there is a variety of heroes or HQ choices that modify the types of army you can play giving you a codex with alot of depth, I have loved the idea since codex SM 5e and I love it still.

More importantly, this rumor makes it look like the Inq is self-sufficient in their own codex and does not have 'See Codex BLAH'.

That's a big deal for cross edition balance.

pretre wrote:More importantly, this rumor makes it look like the Inq is self-sufficient in their own codex and does not have 'See Codex BLAH'.

That's a big deal for cross edition balance.

That's actually a really good point.

If they do this to my Sisters codex I will cry.

I hope they leave all of the Inquisition aspects in the GK codex, because Sisters make a full army by themselves without adding in half-assed Guard elements.

Just need to expand the Sisters to meet fifth edition (something is definitely doable, even if it requires the creation of some new fluff).

wolfshadow wrote:

pretre wrote:More importantly, this rumor makes it look like the Inq is self-sufficient in their own codex and does not have 'See Codex BLAH'.

That's a big deal for cross edition balance.

That's actually a really good point.

And from the looks of it, they have added GK units and added inquisition units while only losing some of the lame extras (orbitals and Daemonhosts). I am pro-this. (Also notice that they are adding a lot of GK models, boxes and only a blister for Inquisition, meaning all those folks who were afraid they would 'lose' something to Inq don't have to worry.)

If they do this with Sisters, we will have New/More sisters units, vehicles and rules along with a parallel Inquisitor/Guard track that stands alone or mixes. Plus from the looks of it, at least 5 new boxes for the core list (in this case Sisters), which is awesome.

Pretty much best case scenario for all but the most stubborn.

So does that mean the options for a radical inquisitor are gone?

pretre wrote:
And from the looks of it, they have added GK units and added inquisition units while only losing some of the lame extras (orbitals and Daemonhosts). I am pro-this. (Also notice that they are adding a lot of GK models, boxes and only a blister for Inquisition, meaning all those folks who were afraid they would 'lose' something to Inq don't have to worry.)

If they do this with Sisters, we will have New/More sisters units, vehicles and rules along with a parallel Inquisitor/Guard track that stands alone or mixes. Plus from the looks of it, at least 5 new boxes for the core list (in this case Sisters), which is awesome.

Pretty much best case scenario for all but the most stubborn.

I don't know. I liked the concept, but the rules for the daemonhosts made me dislike them more than anything else. I do like that the inquisition still has a presence though.

Hmm. I'm happy to see that the army is getting updated, but I'm kind of terrified that one of the options is IG mech spam (although admittedly cut down). While i can see that they wanted to keep INQ elements in the army, it seems like all they've really done is just put in more inducted Guard, with an Inquisitor at the head. This strikes me as incredibly dull, although maybe this is what Demonhunter players actually wanted? It seems like if you wanted to play this kind of list you could easily do it with IG, replacing your command squad models with an Inquisitor and retinue.

But damn, did we really need more chimera mech? This sounds suspiciously like GW once again didn't have enough stuff to actually flesh out a Grey Knights codex so instead shoehorn4ed in a bunch or pre-existing models. I hope that's not the case, but from these early reports it kind of looks like it may be.

I also really, really hope SoB don't suffer the same fate. We've already had 2 unimaginative, mediocre Sisters books that did little to differentiate the army from other imperial forces. I'd hate to see a third.

Anyway, that all sounded pretty negative. My hopes are still high.

pretre wrote:If they do this with Sisters, we will have New/More sisters units, vehicles and rules along with a parallel Inquisitor/Guard track that stands alone or mixes. Plus from the looks of it, at least 5 new boxes for the core list (in this case Sisters), which is awesome.

And yet, those "new" units are going to not be Sisters units, and therefor the Sisters army is not going to be as large as a dedicated sisters of battle codex would be. Ergo, it is not what I want.

A Sisters of Battle army doesn't NEED conscripts. Sisters should have Frateris Militia instead. A Sisters of Battle army doesn't NEED Chimeras. The Immolator should be worked on being made unique to Sisters. A Sisters of Battle army doesn't NEED the manticore/deathstrike/orbital bombardment. They have their own mobile missile launcher (the Exorcist) and artillery could easily be variants of that. But if these "Inquisition" elements are included, that means the Sisters more likely than not won't be getting any of the truly Sisters units and upgrades, which means the codex is lower in quality than it should be.

jake wrote:
But damn, did we really need more chimera mech? This sounds suspiciously like GW once again didn't have enough stuff to actually flesh out a Grey Knights codex so instead shoehorn4ed in a bunch or pre-existing models. I hope that's not the case, but from these early reports it kind of looks like it may be..

Soon we will have mechcrons with monoliths as DT!

daedalus wrote:
I don't know. I liked the concept, but the rules for the daemonhosts made me dislike them more than anything else. I do like that the inquisition still has a presence though.

I have a feeling we may still see radicals in here. Daemonhosts are a bit problematic. Super cool and powerful in the fluff, but hard to rep on the table.

The reason I think Radicals are still possible is the note about 'If you take Inq Lord, you can take ST as troops'. Makes it sounds like GH are an option and not a requirement. So the book will be able to make GH, GH and Inq or straight Inq. Which is pretty sweet.

PS, it's Grey Knights... so GK. Not GH...

My planned force will be heavily GK centred. I like the idea of an Inquisitor for fluff and modelling reasons. If we get plastic stormies, this will mak me happy.

We shall see what happens.

jake wrote:While i can see that they wanted to keep INQ elements in the army, it seems like all they've really done is just put in more inducted Guard, with an Inquisitor at the head. This strikes me as incredibly dull, although maybe this is what Demonhunter players actually wanted?

That's what an inquisition army is. Inquisition with allies. Always has been. It is as dull as you make it.

But damn, did we really need more chimera mech? This sounds suspiciously like GW once again didn't have enough stuff to actually flesh out a Grey Knights codex so instead shoehorn4ed in a bunch or pre-existing models. I hope that's not the case, but from these early reports it kind of looks like it may be.

Except the inquisition entries are redux of guard and the GK has new entries, so they have gained. Inquisition will be an option, not a requirement.

I also really, really hope SoB don't suffer the same fate. We've already had 2 unimaginative, mediocre Sisters books that did little to differentiate the army from other imperial forces. I'd hate to see a third.

As for the unimaginative sisters books, that's your opinion. I happen to like the C:WH and think it is pretty flavorful, but I don't have unrealistic expectations of it. It was worlds better than Codex: Chapter Approved and added a lot to the army from C:SOB 2nd.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

wolfshadow wrote:My planned force will be heavily GK centred. I like the idea of an Inquisitor for fluff and modelling reasons. If we get plastic stormies, this will mak me happy.

Plastic stormies would make a lot of folks happy for multiple armies (conversion opportunities!). Inquisition has always been about fluff and creativity, so I hope they leave a degree of customization in them.

That's like saying "if I start off with six pennies, and someone gives me a few dollars, I'm worlds richer than I used to be!"... maybe you are, but you're still dirt ****ing poor.

wolfshadow wrote:My planned force will be heavily GK centred.

Likely as well, if I start a GK army it would probably just be Grey Knights, occasionally using conscripts simply because I already have models for them anyway.

One more thing, remember that Codex design is not Zero Sum. Just because something is added, doesn't mean something is lost.

pretre wrote:

daedalus wrote:
I don't know. I liked the concept, but the rules for the daemonhosts made me dislike them more than anything else. I do like that the inquisition still has a presence though.

I have a feeling we may still see radicals in here. Daemonhosts are a bit problematic. Super cool and powerful in the fluff, but hard to rep on the table.

The reason I think Radicals are still possible is the note about 'If you take Inq Lord, you can take ST as troops'. Makes it sounds like GH are an option and not a requirement. So the book will be able to make GH, GH and Inq or straight Inq. Which is pretty sweet.

And dont forget the 'counts as' conversion possibilities. The rumored walker has me salivating.

pretre wrote:One more thing, remember that Codex design is not Zero Sum. Just because something is added, doesn't mean something is lost.

In my view it is. The effort put into adding in Inquisition units, rules, and wargear is effort not being put into adding in Sisters units, rules, and wargear.

Same here, really, except slightly more justified because Grey Knights didn't have that much to begin with (Sisters, at least, had more than one unit in each non-troops slot...). But even then, work done on Inquisition stuff is not work being done on Grey Knights stuff. Whether or not DH/GK fans are happy about this, I dunno, but I would NOT want to see the same crap happen to my codex so I don't like seeing it here.

I think the expectation on all fronts should be that the SOB get pushed from what their "standard" is and toward the addition of more and more varied units; as usual, they'll want to sell more models while creating a dex that presents mulitple competitive builds.

This will be the way of it with the GK dex, if that's not clear from the rumors yet ... IST armies, conscript spam horde armies, Pure GK elite style armies should actually all be functional, and everything in between.

Much will rest on the shoulders of the Anointed Armor rumor - if it's true that their GK models get to re-roll basically all saves, that alone will ensure the quality of the dex - coupled/ w the option for cheap horde troops, you'll be able to field GK that don't simply die when you point a few heavier or spammier weapons in their over-pointsed direction.

Should be a fun time; all rumors here and elsewhere creeping out speak highly, and I'm a big fan of the GK fluff.

wolfshadow wrote:
And dont forget the 'counts as' conversion possibilities. The rumored walker has me salivating.

Great point! I can imagine using it in other SM armies just as a cool looking Ven Dread.

Also, I think with the current rumor base the GK/Inq book will be a lock for a Adeptus Mech CA force.

Inq Lord as AM Lord.
Inq ST or Conscripts as Skittari.
Valkyries fit perfect with high tech.
Use GK Terms or Walkers as Knights.
etc

One of the reasons I have always loved the Inquisition addition was the possibility for CA.

MVBrandt wrote:I think the expectation on all fronts should be that the SOB get pushed from what their "standard" is and toward the addition of more and more varied units; as usual, they'll want to sell more models while creating a dex that presents mulitple competitive builds.

This will be the way of it with the GK dex, if that's not clear from the rumors yet ... IST armies, conscript spam horde armies, Pure GK elite style armies should actually all be functional, and everything in between.

Much will rest on the shoulders of the Anointed Armor rumor - if it's true that their GK models get to re-roll basically all saves, that alone will ensure the quality of the dex - coupled/ w the option for cheap horde troops, you'll be able to field GK that don't simply die when you point a few heavier or spammier weapons in their over-pointsed direction.

Should be a fun time; all rumors here and elsewhere creeping out speak highly, and I'm a big fan of the GK fluff.

The GK rumours were what drew me back to the hobby after a 6 year absence. If the BA Plastics are any indicator the GKs should be spectacular.

MVBrandt wrote:Much will rest on the shoulders of the Anointed Armor rumor - if it's true that their GK models get to re-roll basically all saves, that alone will ensure the quality of the dex - coupled/ w the option for cheap horde troops, you'll be able to field GK that don't simply die when you point a few heavier or spammier weapons in their over-pointsed direction.

This!

3+ with Fortune for all my models? or 2+/5+? Or even worse, TH/SS for 2+/3+. That will definitely make the army dead 'ard and hopefully worth the points. It sounds like GK may be a grand experiment in this regard, can enough or the right Special Rules make up for huge points costs. In the past, the answer has been no for most armies, but I am cautiously optimistic.

pretre wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:
And dont forget the 'counts as' conversion possibilities. The rumored walker has me salivating.

Great point! I can imagine using it in other SM armies just as a cool looking Ven Dread.

Also, I think with the current rumor base the GK/Inq book will be a lock for a Adeptus Mech CA force.

Inq Lord as AM Lord.
Inq ST or Conscripts as Skittari.
Valkyries fit perfect with high tech.
Use GK Terms or Walkers as Knights.
etc

One of the reasons I have always loved the Inquisition addition was the possibility for CA.

LOS Rules might take that out of the equation. Its supposed to be 'big'.

Could someone fill me in on what IST stands for?

I'm not familiar with Inquisitors and such.

Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

Though we don't know much about their rules, one could probably anticipate given the early notice Elite slot placement that they'd be very similar to if not identical to the Storm Troopers available to the Imperial Guard in the same slot.

The option for Valkyrie dedicated transprots anywhere in the dex is doubly exciting for me, as I have 6 MRP valks sitting around just waiting to see the light of day again (haven't used the 9 valk army since converting 3 to Vendetta and going Strakenguard).

MVBrandt wrote:Inquisitorial Storm Troopers

Though we don't know much about their rules, one could probably anticipate given the early notice Elite slot placement that they'd be very similar to if not identical to the Storm Troopers available to the Imperial Guard in the same slot.

The option for Valkyrie dedicated transprots anywhere in the dex is doubly exciting for me, as I have 6 MRP valks sitting around just waiting to see the light of day again (haven't used the 9 valk army since converting 3 to Vendetta and going Strakenguard).

Based on these rumors, I am very hopeful for a fast reaction force, which fits the Inquisitor fluff very well. 4 or 5 squads ISTs using Deepstrike or Valks, Inq Lord in Chim or borrowed Valk, unit or two of Grey Knights and something heavy could make for a very fun army.

I think that ISTs might even be worth it at the current IG rules and cost with Valk rides. Spendy, but very flexible deployment with their pick 1 special rule thing and option to scout and drop for first turn shenanigans.

And if they are allowed to be both elite and troops, you could use all 9 of your valks. Now that would be awesome... "My whole army scout moves."

Haha, why do you think I have 9 valks?

My initial list was 60 meltaveterans and 2 meltaCCS riding in 9 mrp valks. Scouting to within 12" and unleashing 26 meltaguns at BS4 followed by 18 pie plates was PRECISELY what was done.



It'll be fun to get some use out of the retired MRP birds at least.

MVBrandt wrote:Haha, why do you think I have 9 valks?

My initial list was 60 meltaveterans and 2 meltaCCS riding in 9 mrp valks. Scouting to within 12" and unleashing 26 meltaguns at BS4 followed by 18 pie plates was PRECISELY what was done.



It'll be fun to get some use out of the retired MRP birds at least.

if the points are comparable we could have:
6xTroops ST (5 guys with 2MG) and Valk with MRP and HB for 245 ea 1470
Inq Lord / Retinue / Etc at 200 or so.

330 points for something else. Nasty. Less valks in this proposed list, but more targets since we don't have to squadron. That's sick.

Need something to mess with their deployment and make them bunch up and it is perfect. (DCA, if they don't bleed Kill Points. I wonder if they'll go for Lone Wolf rules on this. They are a death cult, after all.)

Either way, it should be fun to play with and sufficiently flavorful to keep it from being "IG, now with Inquisitors!".


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and I love the 'Out the Heretic' rule. I hope they do something like this for WH as well (Out the Rogue Psyker?, make a unit/model count as a psyker?). Great for instances where you just can't figure out why you're fighting. Replaces that whole 'why would we fight them?' section.

I hope there is no WH. As for my Sisters, I don't think I ever have a problem justifying why they're fighting ^.^

Melissia wrote:A Sisters of Battle army doesn't NEED conscripts. Sisters should have Frateris Militia instead.

What's the difference between the two, especially if there's an option or two to 'church up' the unit by adding a priest or similar in?

Balance wrote:

Melissia wrote:A Sisters of Battle army doesn't NEED conscripts. Sisters should have Frateris Militia instead.

What's the difference between the two, especially if there's an option or two to 'church up' the unit by adding a priest or similar in?

Guard have standardized equipment, yes, even Conscripts. Frateris Militia basically have whatever they have on hand when they were roused, or occasionally cheap autoguns. But Frateris Militia are better motivated and often include gangers, crusaders, and other groups that are more skilled than the average conscript. Both are undisciplined, but Frateris Militia are more likely to charge at the enemy than to run away in fear.

It's like the difference between... Ork Boyz and Termagants outside of Synapse range.

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:One more thing, remember that Codex design is not Zero Sum. Just because something is added, doesn't mean something is lost.

In my view it is. The effort put into adding in Inquisition units, rules, and wargear is effort not being put into adding in Sisters units, rules, and wargear.

Same here, really, except slightly more justified because Grey Knights didn't have that much to begin with (Sisters, at least, had more than one unit in each non-troops slot...). But even then, work done on Inquisition stuff is not work being done on Grey Knights stuff. Whether or not DH/GK fans are happy about this, I dunno, but I would NOT want to see the same crap happen to my codex so I don't like seeing it here.

I really like the option for Arbites in the current WH codex, in fact I like them so much I made an army of them.

Any time spent adding SoB or Inquisitorial units takes time away from adding MORE ARBITES. Never mind that Arbites aren't, fluff-wise, an army on the same scale as IG or SM. Never mind that they don't usually act as frontline troops. Never mind that lots of people like SoB and Inquisitors and the option of building lots of different sorts of army. I REAAAALLLY LIKE ARBITES. Therefore, GW should make a whole codex of Arbites, otherwise they're EVIL.

I hate you Games Workshop.
I hate you I hate you I hate you.

ArbitorIan wrote:
I really like the option for Arbites in the current WH codex, in fact I like them so much I made an army of them.

Any time spent adding SoB or Inquisitorial units takes time away from adding MORE ARBITES. Never mind that Arbites aren't, fluff-wise, an army on the same scale as IG or SM. Never mind that they don't usually act as frontline troops. Never mind that lots of people like SoB and Inquisitors and the option of building lots of different sorts of army. I REAAAALLLY LIKE ARBITES. Therefore, GW should make a whole codex of Arbites, otherwise they're EVIL.

Not to bang the gong here, but GK/Inquis look really good for arbites.

Use Chim as Repressors with ISTs as Arbites and Fast Reaction squads in Valks. Inq as your Arbites Lord, etc.

And now I get the name


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Balance wrote:
What's the difference between the two [Frateris and Conscripts], especially if there's an option or two to 'church up' the unit by adding a priest or similar in?

Balance: It's only semantics. There is no real difference between conscript rules and frateris militia rules. In fact, the second edition Frateris (last time they were seen in a real codex) are near identical to conscripts. Same statline (except Ld) as 5th Ed conscripts even (which is saying something for a 2nd edition unit). It is mostly a fluff difference.

When the WH codex comes out it will probably have inducted guard (similar to GK/Inq) and some sort of conscript/zealot/redemptionist/militia unit in it which will be dirt cheap, have poor stats and potentially have upgrades that will make it faithful (add a priest, as you mentioned).

ArbitorIan wrote:

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:One more thing, remember that Codex design is not Zero Sum. Just because something is added, doesn't mean something is lost.

In my view it is. The effort put into adding in Inquisition units, rules, and wargear is effort not being put into adding in Sisters units, rules, and wargear.

Same here, really, except slightly more justified because Grey Knights didn't have that much to begin with (Sisters, at least, had more than one unit in each non-troops slot...). But even then, work done on Inquisition stuff is not work being done on Grey Knights stuff. Whether or not DH/GK fans are happy about this, I dunno, but I would NOT want to see the same crap happen to my codex so I don't like seeing it here.

I really like the option for Arbites in the current WH codex, in fact I like them so much I made an army of them.

Any time spent adding SoB or Inquisitorial units takes time away from adding MORE ARBITES. Never mind that Arbites aren't, fluff-wise, an army on the same scale as IG or SM. Never mind that they don't usually act as frontline troops. Never mind that lots of people like SoB and Inquisitors and the option of building lots of different sorts of army. I REAAAALLLY LIKE ARBITES. Therefore, GW should make a whole codex of Arbites, otherwise they're EVIL.

I hate you Games Workshop.
I hate you I hate you I hate you.

ArbitorIan wrote:

Melissia wrote:

pretre wrote:One more thing, remember that Codex design is not Zero Sum. Just because something is added, doesn't mean something is lost.

In my view it is. The effort put into adding in Inquisition units, rules, and wargear is effort not being put into adding in Sisters units, rules, and wargear.

Same here, really, except slightly more justified because Grey Knights didn't have that much to begin with (Sisters, at least, had more than one unit in each non-troops slot...). But even then, work done on Inquisition stuff is not work being done on Grey Knights stuff. Whether or not DH/GK fans are happy about this, I dunno, but I would NOT want to see the same crap happen to my codex so I don't like seeing it here.

I really like the option for Arbites in the current WH codex, in fact I like them so much I made an army of them.

Any time spent adding SoB or Inquisitorial units takes time away from adding MORE ARBITES. Never mind that Arbites aren't, fluff-wise, an army on the same scale as IG or SM. Never mind that they don't usually act as frontline troops. Never mind that lots of people like SoB and Inquisitors and the option of building lots of different sorts of army. I REAAAALLLY LIKE ARBITES. Therefore, GW should make a whole codex of Arbites, otherwise they're EVIL.

I hate you Games Workshop.
I hate you I hate you I hate you.

Tee hee.

I c wut you did thar.

MVBrandt wrote:
Tee hee.

I c wut you did thar.

I was being willfully ignorant.

That tactic has worked much better than my original approach.

wolfshadow wrote:
Blisters:
New Stern

Why bother making a new Stern he is one of the best grey knight models, imo all GW need to do is make some new units and GK's in plastic, hardly need a revamp.

Farmer wrote:
Why bother making a new Stern he is one of the best grey knight models, imo all GW need to do is make some new units and GK's in plastic, hardly need a revamp.

I'm guessing change to the basic design aesthetic. Keep in mind that the rumor says new plastic GK and new terms. That's the whole army right there. That gives them the freedom to update the whole range in one fell swoop. That being said, I hope they just expand on the existing aesthetic and tighten it up as the current models are pretty nice!

Why bother making a new Stern he is one of the best grey knight models, imo all GW need to do is make some new units and GK's in plastic, hardly need a revamp.

Finally, a post about Grey Knights in a Grey Knight thread instead of SoB and everything else but the loo inside a Titan. And I'll agree with it, the Stern model still looks great.

I'd like to hear some news on pricing as well as release dates and more of the models that will be included. I'm guessing Terminators will stay between $50-$55 for 5 models, but troop costs of power armour Knights will hopefully come down to something approaching a regular Space Marine Tactical Squad.

BrassScorpion wrote:Finally, a post about Grey Knights in a Grey Knight thread instead of SoB and everything else but the loo inside a Titan. And I'll agree with it, the Stern model still looks great.

Grumpy? With the occasional diversion, we've talked about list variants using the new codex, things we like about the rules and how we think the multiple styles will interact.

I'd like to hear some news on pricing as well as release dates and more of the models that will be included. I'm guessing Terminators will stay between $50-$55 for 5 models, but troop costs of power armour Knights will hopefully come down to something approaching a regular Space Marine Tactical Squad.

Less metal is good and the recent DE pre-orders were affordable, I heard, so there may be some hope for you.

Melissia wrote:I hope there is no WH. As for my Sisters, I don't think I ever have a problem justifying why they're fighting ^.^

[remarks withheld on this subject. I know that I won't change her opinion and she probably remebers mine]


Staying on-topic about the GKs 'dex, I think with the armour rule and the changes to the NFWs they are probably gonna have to cost more than they do currently. Maybe only by a little bit but still.

If only GW would release even a pdf on Inq forces that was only legal in friendly games I would be slightly happier. So far I'm am not sure about this. But I notice that it seems to be Codex GKs not Codex DH.

Personally the rules for ISTs don't seem to bad so far. I am annoyed at the lack of being able to be a radical Inquisitor. (No deamonhost) But then again this isn't codex Ordo Malleus it's DH so they should hunt them not use them.

I would like to here more on the Inquisitors themselves. I saw that one was a HQ choice. Is that a Lord? If so I should imagine that an Inquisitor should be an elite choice again.

For the 'dexs FA I think a stormraven fills a slot nicely but there has to be more. I doubt that there will be GK jetbikes or jumpack ones. I think the teleport attack squads will probably stay.

I don't think PAGKs should have transport options such as Rhinos and Razorbacks. From the fluff I know they always teleport in or use LRs. But there could always be a retcon...

VikingScott wrote:
I don't think PAGKs should have transport options such as Rhinos and Razorbacks. From the fluff I know they always teleport in or use LRs. But there could always be a retcon...

In the battle report on Page one, PAGK had a Razorback, so your wishes may be granted.

BrassScorpion wrote:

Why bother making a new Stern he is one of the best grey knight models, imo all GW need to do is make some new units and GK's in plastic, hardly need a revamp.

Finally, a post about Grey Knights in a Grey Knight thread instead of SoB and everything else but the loo inside a Titan. And I'll agree with it, the Stern model still looks great.

I'd like to hear some news on pricing as well as release dates and more of the models that will be included. I'm guessing Terminators will stay between $50-$55 for 5 models, but troop costs of power armour Knights will hopefully come down to something approaching a regular Space Marine Tactical Squad.

Damn someone actually agrees with me, wait am i seeing things?.

Sounds good choice for GW to sell more models, i can see people buying GK just for them being plastic.

This sounds good. Wanted to run an Air Calv army without the squadrons now I can. Valkyrie and Storm Raven army sounds fun. Hopefully ISTs won't have the inflated points cost they do in the IG dex and Storm Ravens will have some way of getting scout.

Plastic convertable minis meanst I probably won't buy a metal HQ unit. I'd rather convert my own. I still have a Cypher body and some metal bits to make the inquisitor that I was going to make before I dopped out of the hobby.

Going to get a Storm Raven on principle. :-)
Probably grab a crusader or Redeemer and some FW parts.
Stormies in a dark grey/black and red scheme.
Thinking about going with a Dark metallic scheme, almost black. on the Grey Knights

That with some dark reds and some gold and bone should make for a fairly striking army on the tabletop.

ArbitorIan wrote:I really like the option for Arbites in the current WH codex, in fact I like them so much I made an army of them.

Any time spent adding SoB or Inquisitorial units takes time away from adding MORE ARBITES. Never mind that Arbites aren't, fluff-wise, an army on the same scale as IG or SM. Never mind that they don't usually act as frontline troops. Never mind that lots of people like SoB and Inquisitors and the option of building lots of different sorts of army. I REAAAALLLY LIKE ARBITES. Therefore, GW should make a whole codex of Arbites, otherwise they're EVIL.

I hate you Games Workshop.
I hate you I hate you I hate you.

Brilliant.

I really hope that the Walker isn't some form of Grey Knights vehicle, but rather an Inquisitorial Sentinel packing heavy bolters, psycannons, or incinerators.

Would be far, far cooler.

So then what happened to the idea that all the Ordos would be in one book?

I hate to add another facet to the discussion but I want an Xenos Hunters codex. Right now I have a Death Watch army that's playable as either DH or normal SM.

Also in referance to the GK rumors they sound pretty good. Not really radicle so as to be unbelievable but a good update to cath them up with everyone else.

ArbitorIan: Funny, but stupid. Arbitrators don 't have their own codex and never have.

Melissia wrote:ArbitorIan: Funny, but stupid. Arbitrators don 't have their own codex and never have.

I'm breaking a rule here, but...

BWAHAHAHA

Arbitorian, you win.

Kanluwen wrote:I really hope that the Walker isn't some form of Grey Knights vehicle, but rather an Inquisitorial Sentinel packing heavy bolters, psycannons, or incinerators.

Would be far, far cooler.

Someone claiming to have seen it in a studio tour said GK pilot.

Then it's a fluff aberration and shall be discounted by myself!

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's a fluff aberration and shall be discounted by myself!

Not really. Falls in line with GKs not being fond of being entombed in a Dreadnaught Sarcophagus.

wolfshadow wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's a fluff aberration and shall be discounted by myself!

Not really. Falls in line with GKs not being fond of being entombed in a Dreadnaught Sarcophagus.

Where was that piece of information ever put? Because I've yet to see anything like that, considering the fact that they do, in fact, actually field Dreadnoughts.

So, the plastics are likely to be:
- GKs
- GK Termies
- Storm Raven
- some kind of walker
?

Clang wrote:So, the plastics are likely to be:
- GKs
- GK Termies
- Storm Raven
- some kind of walker
?

That seems to be the consensus over @ Warseer.

Clang wrote:So, the plastics are likely to be:
- GKs
- GK Termies
- Storm Raven
- some kind of walker
?

We're hoping for plastic Stormtroopers too (and plastic Arbites with the SoB codex), but I haven't seen any confirmation.

Considering plastic Stormtroopers were supposedly held from being released with the Guard codex for the GK/Inquisition one...
I will be flippin' furious if they're not released.

Plastic Inquisitional Storm Troopers please!

AlexHolker wrote:
We're hoping for plastic Stormtroopers too (and plastic Arbites with the SoB codex), but I haven't seen any confirmation.

Who or what ever indicated there would be plastic Arbites? That seems reaaaaaally far fetched.

pretre wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:
We're hoping for plastic Stormtroopers too (and plastic Arbites with the SoB codex), but I haven't seen any confirmation.

Who or what ever indicated there would be plastic Arbites? That seems reaaaaaally far fetched.

Hmm as much as I love arbites I agree

Clang wrote:So, the plastics are likely to be:
- GKs
- GK Termies
- Storm Raven
- some kind of walker
?

The walker just couldn't be a dreadnought now could it?.

Kanluwen wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's a fluff aberration and shall be discounted by myself!

Not really. Falls in line with GKs not being fond of being entombed in a Dreadnaught Sarcophagus.

Where was that piece of information ever put? Because I've yet to see anything like that, considering the fact that they do, in fact, actually field Dreadnoughts.

Daemon Hunters codex pg 32 right above the picture of the Dreadnought

"It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his service to the Emperor-they hope only to rest in the cool dark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely wounded enough that to continue on the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead

This statement shows that while the Grey Knights do use Dreadnoughts a battle brother of the chapter would rather not be entombed in one because they would rather the honor of being burried on Titan with their bretheran like Wolfshadow said. So there is your answer, the information was put in the codex

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's a fluff aberration and shall be discounted by myself!

Not really. Falls in line with GKs not being fond of being entombed in a Dreadnaught Sarcophagus.

Where was that piece of information ever put? Because I've yet to see anything like that, considering the fact that they do, in fact, actually field Dreadnoughts.

Daemon Hunters codex pg 32 right above the picture of the Dreadnought

"It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his service to the Emperor-they hope only to rest in the cool dark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely wounded enough that to continue on the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead

This statement shows that while the Grey Knights do use Dreadnoughts a battle brother of the chapter would rather not be entobmed in one because they would rather the honor of being burried on Titan with their bretheran like Wolfshadow said. So there is your answer, the information was put in the codex

Supposedly bigger than a Dread.

pretre wrote:Who or what ever indicated there would be plastic Arbites? That seems reaaaaaally far fetched.

Nothing as yet, which is why I said "hoping" rather than "expecting". But it would help differentiate between the two arms of the Inquisition by giving the Ordo Malleus Stormtroopers, Valkyries, and conscripts while the Ordo Hereticus gets Arbites, Repressors and Militia.

To use a modern analogy, it would mean the Malleus recruits full-time employees that work for the Inquisition for the remainder of their lives (which isn't very long for the conscripts ) while the Hereticus has contractors (from the Ecclesiarchy, Arbites and civilian life), who will return to their non-Inquisitorial lives when the campaign is over.

Tailgunner wrote:Where is the Stormraven?

In the GK section. Obviously, the focus of the reader by the OP is like me - Inquisition player, not a GK player.


I'm pretty happy with what I see so far for ISTs and Inducted Guard.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Tailgunner wrote:Where is the Stormraven?

In the GK section. Obviously, the focus of the reader by the OP is like me - Inquisition player, not a GK player.


I'm pretty happy with what I see so far for ISTs and Inducted Guard.

My army will be predominatly GK. :-)

I posted a new thread due to the fact that I couldnt find the older thread where I had read the original set of GK rumours. And these were new rumours that had not been previously discussed. The StormRaven is pretty close to confirmed.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then it's a fluff aberration and shall be discounted by myself!

Not really. Falls in line with GKs not being fond of being entombed in a Dreadnaught Sarcophagus.

Where was that piece of information ever put? Because I've yet to see anything like that, considering the fact that they do, in fact, actually field Dreadnoughts.

Daemon Hunters codex pg 32 right above the picture of the Dreadnought

"It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his service to the Emperor-they hope only to rest in the cool dark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely wounded enough that to continue on the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead

This statement shows that while the Grey Knights do use Dreadnoughts a battle brother of the chapter would rather not be entombed in one because they would rather the honor of being buried on Titan with their bretheran like Wolfshadow said. So there is your answer, the information was put in the codex

You know that the sentiment right there isn't confined to just the Grey Knights, yeah?

So I'm calling bollocks on the GK walker, here and now.

Inquisitorial Sentinel, Heavy Bolter/Psycannon/Incinerator options--especially considering the purposeful addition of Psycannon Razorbacks to the Inquisitorial armory.

Warboss Imbad Ironskull wrote:"It is a rare thing indeed for a Grey Knight to be consigned to the living tomb of a Dreadnought at the end of his service to the Emperor-they hope only to rest in the cool dark of Titan for all eternity. However, a few are sorely wounded enough that to continue on the Emperor's path as a man is impossible and they accept the necessity of pursuing it as a man-machine instead

My interpretation of that would be that a GK (or infact any SM) would rather die a glorious death with the healthy fighting body their father gave them, than get crippled and have to use the aid of a Dred. Now is that so hard to believe?

Kanluwen wrote:
So I'm calling bollocks on the GK walker, here and now.

Inquisitorial Sentinel, Heavy Bolter/Psycannon/Incinerator options--especially considering the purposeful addition of Psycannon Razorbacks to the Inquisitorial armory.

While we're at it, why not just re-do the IG codex again, and combine it with the DH one?

FW have already made GK Dreds, the GK codex isn't supposed to be the IG codex, just a bit different, and we'll add in some Power Armoured awesome. It's supposed to be predominatly GK with their lackies the IG. So I don't see why it wouldn't be a Dred with all those options. It's not so hard to believe that GK would have Dreds (especially as in the quoted fluff it says they're just rare" So why wouldn't they be in the army list?

Oshova

I heard way back that the Grey Knights would get the psyker dread as well as the BA. What if the new walker kit is a combined furioso/psyker dread kit?

@O'Shovah
Except this still isn't Codex: Grey Knights.

There will never be Codex: Grey Knights without Inquisitorial presence, because the Grey Knights never really deploy without Inquisitorial assistance(note: Inquisitorial. I'm also VERY skeptical on Imperial Guard conscripts in the 'dex, since part of the design philosophy they've been talking about for this off/on was getting rid of excess units and having the Inquisition stand on its own) .

You'll also notice that I didn't say "Grey Knight Dreadnoughts".
I specifically stated walker, since the rumor is that Grey Knights(live ones, mind you) are going to be piloting some kind of walker.

And frankly?
The Inquisition should have been in the Imperial Guard codex. An Inquisitor Lord HQ choice allowing for Stormtroopers as Troops, the ability to take Grey Knight squads if Ordo Malleus, Sisters if Hereticus, etc all would have been a far, far better way to do it than this crap of forcing specialist units into becoming their own, standalone armies.

I loathe to think of what they'll do to the Deathwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

svendrex wrote:I heard way back that the Grey Knights would get the psyker dread as well as the BA. What if the new walker kit is a combined furioso/psyker dread kit?

That makes far, far more sense than some kind of Grey Knight piloted walker.

I doubt DW would get their own book. They're basically an army of sternguard marines

kenshin620 wrote:I doubt DW would get their own book. They're basically an army of sternguard marines

If its a space marine codex with a "flashy" cover i wouldn't put it past them.

Deathwatch already got their own dedicated roleplay system and heavy influence in another. GW has no plans of introducing a new codex any time soon, just updating old ones to fifth edition.

Kanluwen wrote:
I loathe to think of what they'll do to the Deathwatch.

Deathwatch is to Ordos Xenos what Grey Knights are to Ordos Malleus and Sisters are to Ordos Hereticus.

Frankly, they could fit all that in one codex with a "no mixing" stipulation.

DarknessEternal wrote:Deathwatch is to Ordos Xenos what [..] Sisters are to Ordos Hereticus.

No, and I do not want to start yet another discussion on this godforsaken subject. Also, no.

Let's drop it

(in addition, no.)

Yeah, let's.

ALL POSTERS - PLEASE NOT THE TITLE OF THE THREAD!

TRY to stay on topic.

Alpharius wrote:Yeah, let's.

ALL POSTERS - PLEASE NOT THE TITLE OF THE THREAD!

TRY to stay on topic.

Sorry. So who thinks we'll still get anti DSing items?

Kanluwen wrote:@O'Shovah
Except this still isn't Codex: Grey Knights.

There will never be Codex: Grey Knights without Inquisitorial presence, because the Grey Knights never really deploy without Inquisitorial assistance(note: Inquisitorial. I'm also VERY skeptical on Imperial Guard conscripts in the 'dex, since part of the design philosophy they've been talking about for this off/on was getting rid of excess units and having the Inquisition stand on its own) .

You'll also notice that I didn't say "Grey Knight Dreadnoughts".
I specifically stated walker, since the rumor is that Grey Knights(live ones, mind you) are going to be piloting some kind of walker.

And frankly?
The Inquisition should have been in the Imperial Guard codex. An Inquisitor Lord HQ choice allowing for Stormtroopers as Troops, the ability to take Grey Knight squads if Ordo Malleus, Sisters if Hereticus, etc all would have been a far, far better way to do it than this crap of forcing specialist units into becoming their own, standalone armies.

I loathe to think of what they'll do to the Deathwatch.

Ah sorry for the confusion there Kanluwen. In that case I believe we are agreed.

And on Deathwatch, if they did them kind of along the basis of the rules in WD, then they wouldn't be going too far wrong. Cross that with Sternguard, and you have a pretty good base to make the Deathwatch from.

And yes, Deathwatch and Grey Knights are very different from Sisters. and Grey Kinights are very different to Deathwatch.

Deathwatch pretty much work alone, doing clinical strikes with just a couple of squads. (Not a good army to make a 40K codex for)

Grey Knights are strong and very holy, but have to rely on Guard to supply the numbers.

Sisters are the religious Nuns with Guns. Who rely on religious followers to make up the numbers.

Both Sisters and Grey Knights make good armies for 40K codices, with a similar starting point, but with differences on their reliance on other parts of the Imperium. Sisters relying mainly on their own power, and the numbers of their religious followers.

Hope I didn't get too much wrong there

Oshova

Grey Knights(for the most part), actually, are deployed to areas where the Guard or even Astartes can't be deployed because of a "taint".

They pretty much walk into the maw of Hell, with nothing but their nigh-Paladin levels of faith to keep them from becoming gibbering warpspawn.

I knew I would get something wrong in all that =p

I'm not an expert on . . . well anything really . . . But I try to share what knowledge I have, and am always happy to learn more =D

Oshova

The GKs use the Guard to soak up the little Deamons while they go after the big dudes. The average Chaos tainted Heretic isnt really worth a GKs Blessed bolter shell. They wold rather reserve them for the real deal... Sorcerers, Chaos Marines and Daemons.

kenshin620 wrote:I doubt DW would get their own book. They're basically an army of sternguard marines

Deathwatch armies already exist as such, within C: SM, as an army of Sternguard Marines with Drop Pods / Rhinos / Razorbacks / Land Raiders, with Deathwatch Librarian as HQ.

@Wolfshadow
Except that's never been how the deployment of Grey Knights to a battle zone was described to work.

Grey Knights don't command troops, thus they can't "use the Guard to soak up little Daemons".
Grey Knights get involved when things are so bad that Daemons are materializing left and right, when tears in the fabric of reality are present and the very essence of the Warp is leaking and the world is slipping slowly into the madness that is the Realm of Chaos.
I guess the message is "when things REALLY hit the fan".
Once that happens, they don't deploy Guard to a planet's surface except if there's something really important down there.

JohnHwangDD wrote:
Deathwatch armies already exist as such, within C: SM, as an army of Sternguard Marines with Drop Pods / Rhinos / Razorbacks / Land Raiders, with Deathwatch Librarian as HQ.

Pretty much, yep. The only downside is there's none of the weird yet cool tech or specific tactical training of Kill-Teams.

Guard Conscripts, Stormies and such are integral to any Grey Knights army because it's Fluff-stupid to make an expanded Grey Knights army with a full range of options, it's modeling stupid to create stuff which will never sell in volumes.

Far better to leverage existing Heroes of the Imperium / Inquisition / Grey Knights / IG Conscripts as a well-defined, stand-alone army. Note well that incoporating IG Conscripts, Hellhounds directly into Codex: Inquisition ("Grey Knights") in lieu of Allies fits GW's current standalone Codex design approach very cleanly, and allows GW to differentiate IIG from C: IG troops, while insulating each Codex from the other. Plus, Inducted Guard go back to RoC: StD.

This bodes well for Sisters of Battle being returned to prominence, regaining their Frateris Militia, and losing the Witch Hunter nonsense that was tacked on.

I'm very excited with the direction that GW appears to be taking Inquistion and Sisters.

It also means that if Conscripts/Hellhounds are updated in the IG codex the DH/I/GK/Whatever codex will be left in the dust again.

Melissia wrote:It also means that if Conscripts/Hellhounds are updated in the IG codex the DH/I/GK/Whatever codex will be left in the dust again.

So? The WH/DH ISTs are clearly superior to their IG counterparts, so how is that possibly a bad thing?

If you make a Inquisition / Sisters army, you can be pretty sure of how it's going to play for the next decade. Awesome!

Melissia wrote:It also means that if Conscripts/Hellhounds are updated in the IG codex the DH/I/GK/Whatever codex will be left in the dust again.

That is my concern, too. Unless GW is going to start releasing PDF updates this arrangement is going to end up with more stuff like the Storm Shield whose rules depend on what colour armour you're wearing.

JohnHwangDD wrote:So? The WH/DH ISTs are clearly superior to their IG counterparts, so how is that possibly a bad thing?

... and yet, WH/DH ISTs still suck. IT's like saying 1 is greater than 0.97, well yeah, but that doesn't say much when there's a 7 there too. Regardless, it's a rather big issue with certain pieces of wargaear that have changed as the editions move on.

WTH are you talking about?

ISTs are far superior to IG Storrms or Veterans.

To IG stormies they're slightly superior if only because of costs issues-- and even then ISTs are lacking compared to almost any other unit of the same price.

Including veterans, whom are far more adaptable and can have more firepower in a single squad as well.

Melissia wrote:Deathwatch already got their own dedicated roleplay system and heavy influence in another. GW has no plans of introducing a new codex any time soon, just updating old ones to fifth edition.

Not to be rude but you would know this how?

As far as Grey Knights using Guard I've never even seen it used in fluff. Everything I've seen (including the books) is that the Grey Knights are the last resort, they are launched into the maw of hell (as was so nicely worded before) ALONE to face ALL of the daemons lesser or greater. I've never heard of them sending in guardsmen first to handle the smaller daemons while the Grey Knights go after "The Big Fish" that would be a useless tactic. Now that dosen't mean that the GK fight the entire horde if they don't have to, they prefer to cut the head off the snake and let the body die. And the only thing I've seen that comes close is their thrall type beings who are mind wiped so as to be harder for daemons to controle.

As far as the Dreadnoughts the question was asked about where it says that Grey Knights don't like to be entered into Dreadnoughts. I don't think it's relevant that other chapters members also dislike being entombed. The point is Grey Knights don't so IF a special walker exists it is justified.

For 70 points, I get 2 BS4 Plasma Guns with 3 ablative wounds.

You were saying?

The Inquisitors use the Guard.

The GKs come in when the guard cant handle the problem anymore.

wolfshadow wrote:The Inquisitors use the Guard.

The GKs come in when the guard cant handle the problem anymore.

Yup. The problem has been how to make Inquisitors, Assassins and Grey Knights into any semblance of a "proper" army.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For 70 points, I get 2 BS4 Plasma Guns with 3 ablative wounds.

You were saying?

Which are easily destroyed/routed and have no special rules whatsoever-- no deployment rules, no morale rules, no other special rules, their basic weapons are just as unspectacular, and their transports are lackluster due to the age of the codex. No kraks, no pistol+CCW, and they can only have shotguns if you have a certain white dwarf and your opponent's permission. And so on.

A squad of ten vets with pace, heavy flamer, 2x flamers, and shotguns can quite easily decimate two five-member stormtrooper squads with plasmaguns, and it costs less.

JohnHwangDD wrote:For 70 points, I get 2 BS4 Plasma Guns with 3 ablative wounds.

You were saying?

For 115 i get 3 BS4 plasma guns with 7 ablative wounds. and access to a cheap 55 point Caddy to ride in.
and for $1.09 i can get a Mcdouble....

You're paying more, which defeats the entire point.

JohnHwangDD wrote:You're paying more, which defeats the entire point.

No, i'm spending points wisely. not throwing them away.

This is a total guess, but what if the new walker is a Knight Titan? Codex creep has given us flyers galore, it may be time to start escalating with larger and more deadly walkers as well.

Personally I'm hoping that the new rules for DH/GKs are essentially the same as the current Codex but re-costed.

I love the mix, the fact that you can have an army that's part MEQ and part GEQ. I think they should scrap allies and bring some units into the Codex.

Now, as for the rumours, I don't believe them. I know one of the model designers and he was spot on in what he told me about the Dark Eldar (which I've posted about several times in the past). There will be GK plastic kits but he's said there's no new uber-exotic walker type model. And for the record, he designed Shadowsun and the Krootox, among other things. He says he's sorry for the difficulty in fitting together the latter...haha

Tired and in need of more coffee but a few initial comments.

- While I naturally take everything with a shovel full of salt at this stage, I can believe in access to the new IG vehicles. They want to sell more Valkyries and tanks (doh!).
- HQ selections releasing Troops options is obvious. It is SOP in all of the recent books.
- No orbital strike? Seriously? Does anyone actually use the POS that is the Deathstrike in regular 40K? Hell, Marine commanders get Orbital Bombardment, why not Inquisitors?

JohnHwangDD wrote:You're paying more, which defeats the entire point.

I'm also GETTING more. As I said, that single squad of HF/2F/Shotgun vets can and will destroy both squads of plasma ISTs. Maximum firepower on the move while not restricting its assault abilities, ignores cover saves, and also the HF ignores the ISTs' armor saves.

5-member squads of stormtroopers are easily destroyed no matter if it's ISTs or IGSTs.

If rumors are true i can't wait to see this oversized dreadnought

wolfshadow wrote:My planned force will be heavily GK centred. I like the idea of an Inquisitor for fluff and modelling reasons. If we get plastic stormies, this will mak me happy.

We shall see what happens.

Me too. I really wanted to have a straight up 'human' army, but I didn't want to cop to Vet spam, and I certainly didn't want to paint a horde of guys and tanks. While the Knights will be the focus, I will have a small non GK force to play around with, because the idea that normal humans are standing up against genetically and technologically enhanced Super Soldiers, monsters and demons is pretty cool to me.

But that will be waaaay down the road. Grey Knights are going to be first and foremost in my army selection.

AlexHolker wrote:

Melissia wrote:It also means that if Conscripts/Hellhounds are updated in the IG codex the DH/I/GK/Whatever codex will be left in the dust again.

That is my concern, too. Unless GW is going to start releasing PDF updates this arrangement is going to end up with more stuff like the Storm Shield whose rules depend on what colour armour you're wearing.

I don't understand why the players couldn't just agree (if GW didn't get off their backsides and do it officially) that if a new over-all codex (say Codex: Space Marines in comparison to Codex: Dark Angels) came out and had different effects for items (the storm shield) that the Dark Angel storm shield can have the same abilities as the SM storm shield, etc. I mean, it's standard equipment, I don't think it would vary much.

And if everybody just agreed with the simple, easy stuff like that-BAM it becomes official, without the GW Jabba raise it's girth to do something that's a simple easy fix. I'd figure that tournaments would allow that anyways-a Storm Shield is a Storm Shield :/

Similarly, I think that once it is finally out, all Space Marine chapters should have access to Storm Ravens-because it seems like it would be standard equipment for astartes chapters (like Power armor, and terminator armor). Chapter specific quirks like the Black Templars not tolerating Psykers (save grey knights) or Space Wolves not teleporting into battle should be maintained however. Draw the line at equipment-and do it down the line. No mixing and match-everything would change to the most recent, non Chapter Specific codex (so no librarian Dreadnoughts for Dark Angels or Vanilla Marines) but stay at the points cost at whatever the current codex says (example: pay the price in Codex: Dark Angels, but use the stats from Codex: Space Marines)

Trevak Dal - I see your point about all chapters having access to the same equipment, but I'm happy having chapter specific tech! They're not just different chapters for the fluff and a different colour armour, they're different play styles and different sets of strengths and weaknesses.
There are already so many builds available to vanilla marines, to give them furiosio dreads and baal predators is just broken.
I like having a different game play style from different chapters, if you made all vehicles available to all chapters it would just be a mess of too many options and not enough chapters fighting the way they were meant to.

Bring on the grey knights!!

Trevak Dal wrote:I don't understand why the players couldn't just agree (if GW didn't get off their backsides and do it officially) that if a new over-all codex (say Codex: Space Marines in comparison to Codex: Dark Angels) came out and had different effects for items (the storm shield) that the Dark Angel storm shield can have the same abilities as the SM storm shield, etc.

Because some players will not agree. Even if RAI says a DA SS should provide a 3++ always on save just like every other SS, some people will insist on the RAW version, especially if it's to their advantage, and especially in a tournament.

Trevak Dal wrote:I don't understand why the players couldn't just agree (if GW didn't get off their backsides and do it officially) that if a new over-all codex (say Codex: Space Marines in comparison to Codex: Dark Angels) came out and had different effects for items (the storm shield) that the Dark Angel storm shield can have the same abilities as the SM storm shield, etc. I mean, it's standard equipment, I don't think it would vary much.

Question for you: Is there any difference between a Rolls-Royce, Porsche, or Kia? Aren't they all the same, with four wheels and seats and a metal body? Isn't it the case that a new Cadillac makes all other cars identical?

No?

OK, how about burgers? McDonalds vs BK vs Wendys vs Five Guys, etc. They're all identical, too, right?

Then how is it that we expect the same level of sameness of varied forge worlds in 40k?

As a lover of all things walker, I can't wait to see if this is true, and hope it is - something like a heavily uparmored penitent engine. If you could man it as a PAGK, that would essentially remove the need for a GK dread - though I never found GK Dreadnoughts to be unfluffy, either. It's pretty clear why GK's don't want to be dreadnoughts, but they also may have reasons - a crusade unfinished, a specific nemesis unvanquished - that would explain the occasional, very rare, GK dread.

Still, new walkers always nice!

Gitzbitah wrote:This is a total guess, but what if the new walker is a Knight Titan? Codex creep has given us flyers galore, it may be time to start escalating with larger and more deadly walkers as well.

Its supposedly piloted by a GK in Power armour, so I would guess no. A Knight would have an Adeptus Titanicus/Adeptus Mechanicus pilot.

Again, unconfirmed rumors have it similar in size to the Penitent Engine, IIRC....

if they allow me to have storm ravens. And make grey knights plastic! Inquisition here i come!

An all Valk/Stormraven army would be awesome, but way too expensive for me to consider.

Plastic grey knights are my dream....

Asherian Command wrote:Plastic grey knights are my dream....

Then your dreams will be fullfilled between Jan-March. :-)

wolfshadow wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Plastic grey knights are my dream....

Then your dreams will be fullfilled between Jan-March. :-)

Now I am dreaming of getting a phone call from the Girl I like *thumbs patiently*
"Ah , Only works with 40k!" *Shots a grenade launcher at a Eldar player*
Now I wish that I could get 500 space marines! in grand total!

I am going with GK Inquisitors and SOB are unknown as of now. Everyone hears different things. I heard there will be a new codex in Feb but I have heard GK and SOB in 1 book and no more imperial guard allies or use of Guard. Then Stickmonkey from warseer posts:

(updated 8-12-2010): GK Annointed Armor: All GKs (TA, PA, AA, etc.) wear ornate armor which has been blessed and annointed to provide additional protection both physically and spiritually. Any GK may always Re-roll any failed armor, invul, or cover saves.


Army wide. Daemonic Infestation makes summoned demons less instable?

No allies from/to other Codii. new fodder units in codex. not same as guard units.

New options for Dreadnaughts including libby. psycannon arm. Purge weapon...large pie plate, special abilities include forcing instability test for daemons, including DoC armies, pinning in other armies.


Then turns around and posts:

So this actually addresses much of the inquisition in gk questions:

Inq lords are hq and unlock ISTs as troops
ISTs are elite otherwise
ISTs can take chimera or valkerie as dt
Inq lord retinue looks more like ig command characters with some seritors thrown in
Temple Assassins one entry in elite, one stat line, options allow for customization into temple variants...but the actual temples are only mentioned in fluff, so some special rules look lost
Demonhosts look to be out
In troops we have ig conscripts...like an ig platoon, but conscripts only
Death cult assassins still elite, larger unit sizes, though
Penal legion squad in troops, different than ig codex entry
chimeras or valks as dt only, and only ig
Valk only dt, no vendetta option
Hellhounds in fast, same as ig, but not variants (Ed: ???)
Deathstrike launchers in heavy, same as ig...replacing orbital strike

Also, some weird dynamics in the ruleset if you have both inq and gk hq present. But details were not given.

(Ed: so from this batch it looks like inq is going to be viable, but I question really this more from a why standpoint. If gw did this, only the hq really separates it much from ig, but handicapped ig. Hope to see more soon once the nov nastiness ends. Damn de are blocking all my insight into the future...)

Cheers

Edit: penal legion troops are the fodder unit I was mentioning in the past, cause I know someone will ask.

Now about a month and a half ago I got flamed cause I said the dreaded SOB and GK in one book. So why not wait till they make solid facts before posting your wish lists.

cgage00 wrote: I have heard GK and SOB in 1 book

Not from GW sources.

In fact, ALL reliable sources (IE, not just random people making gak up) have contradicted this rumor. Including GW itself on multiple occasions.

I found the website. Yeah It could be credible. But anyway its kinda cool Finally a Inquisition codex! Next is necrons are I know it!
*two years later*
Damn it.

Mike Noble wrote:An all Valk/Stormraven army would be awesome, but way too expensive for me to consider.

Plus, you'd need to get yourself an MP3 player so you can play Ride of the Valkyries on cue.

OMG! I NEED THAT SONG! HOW COME I'VE NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!
Play Redempetion when you are fighting Grey Knights Vs CSM. It turns into a funny match.

cgage00 wrote:I am going with GK Inquisitors and SOB are unknown as of now. Everyone hears different things. I heard there will be a new codex in Feb but I have heard GK and SOB in 1 book and no more imperial guard allies or use of Guard. Then Stickmonkey from warseer posts:

Not likely. Sisters were started after the GK models were. Too long to develop and release. Also, most credible rumours have the Codex Called CODEX: GREY KNIGHTS If it were a combined codex, then it would be something along the lines of Codex: Inqusition

Also, Jervis Johnson outright said that the combined Inquisition codex rumor was nothing more than "fanwank" to use his exact term.

And that is that. Let's talk about something else. Anything else.

Asherian Command wrote:OMG! I NEED THAT SONG! HOW COME I'VE NEVER THOUGHT OF THAT!
Play Redempetion when you are fighting Grey Knights Vs CSM. It turns into a funny match.

Or, you could have a bit of G&S at the ready:

I am the very model of a modern major general...

s.j.mccartney wrote:Trevak Dal - I see your point about all chapters having access to the same equipment, but I'm happy having chapter specific tech! They're not just different chapters for the fluff and a different colour armour, they're different play styles and different sets of strengths and weaknesses.
There are already so many builds available to vanilla marines, to give them furiosio dreads and baal predators is just broken.
I like having a different game play style from different chapters, if you made all vehicles available to all chapters it would just be a mess of too many options and not enough chapters fighting the way they were meant to.

Bring on the grey knights!!

I'm sorry, I was unclear. I was mostly speaking about stuff like Cyclone missle launchers, storm shields and such, so unless it said specifically "Blood Shield" or something, to just automatically standardize the effects for what the storm shield (or whatever) does, for the current cost in whatever codex.

So you would still pay whatever the points cost was in the Dark Angels codex. Admittedly, I'm not too familiar with Dark Angels-I just read their players (and others) lamenting the inequality between equipment, and proposed a logical solution. A bolter is a bolter, a storm shield is a storm shield. Leave chapter specific vehicles out of the loop (so no Furioso Dreds riding dirty with Calgar) with the exception of cross-codex list differences (the BT Land Raider Crusader one holds 15 power armor troops IIRC, and the Vanilla holds 16, so just standardize the Crusader at 16 for all army books that can take it)

So what if the points are different from The New Hotness compared to the Venerable Coolness. A storm shield is a storm shield unless it's a special storm shield (like a 'Blood Shield' or something...if they have such a thing)

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Trevak Dal wrote:I don't understand why the players couldn't just agree (if GW didn't get off their backsides and do it officially) that if a new over-all codex (say Codex: Space Marines in comparison to Codex: Dark Angels) came out and had different effects for items (the storm shield) that the Dark Angel storm shield can have the same abilities as the SM storm shield, etc. I mean, it's standard equipment, I don't think it would vary much.

Question for you: Is there any difference between a Rolls-Royce, Porsche, or Kia? Aren't they all the same, with four wheels and seats and a metal body? Isn't it the case that a new Cadillac makes all other cars identical?

No?

OK, how about burgers? McDonalds vs BK vs Wendys vs Five Guys, etc. They're all identical, too, right?

Then how is it that we expect the same level of sameness of varied forge worlds in 40k?

because in the grim darkness of the far future...they use Standard Template Constructs...not that they wouldn't short change a chapter if they pissed the Mechanicus off or something...but still unless there is a special notation that says "These are Dark Angel Specific Storm Shields/bolters/whatever" (Besides just being in the Dark Angel codex) then it's still a storm shield and should change to whatever the standard statline is.

How to determine what the standard statline is? In the newest Space Marine army books (C:SM, C:SW, C:BA) what does the Storm shield do? If they are all the same, apply that to all previous incarnations of storm shields.

Go read the STC Fluff. A STC doesn't make things identical - it makes a thing which more-or-less meets requirements based on local whatnots.

A STC for a burger simply defines it as a sliced bun with beef patty and seasoning. It might even have a range of weight for the patty, from 1/8 lb to 1/2 lb. It might go as far as specifying lettuce, tomato, ketchup and mayo. Bit it's not going to specify iceberg vs romaine, or beefsteak vs cherry, nor Heinz and Hellemans. Nor would it specify Angus vs sirlion vs chopped.


The idea that DA should get "free" updates that aren't specified in their Codex is silly. The armies are different. Deal with it.


OTOH, if you're proposing a lowest common demonimator approach (SM Storm Shields are only 4++, SM LRCs drop to max 15, etc.), then I'd be OK with that.

Yeah, but a STC when presented with the finest materials that the imperium can offer does not make one storm shield 33% less effective just because there is a winged sword on the front. To even entertain the thought that it is fluff-justified by your reasoning is completely laughable.

New GK look to be shaping up nicely... hopefully their points won't be as outrageous as the last dex. Heres to hoping Necrons get the same love!

If PAGKs start with a NFW that's a power weapon and this annointed armor rumor, there's no way they can justify lowering their cost, imo, (though that would make me extremely happy >.> )
Have there been any rumors about the shrouding?

I would rather them be expensive but badass anyway, myself.

Melissia wrote:I would rather them be expensive but badass anyway, myself.

They will not be that expensive points-wise. Remember, GW will want everyone to buy the new miniatures.

Define "not that expensive"?

25 points for MEQ, a storm bolter, power weapon, artificer armor, and special rules like shrouding doesn't necessarily seem that expensive.

Melissia wrote:Define "not that expensive"?

25 points for MEQ, a storm bolter, power weapon, artificer armor, and special rules like shrouding doesn't necessarily seem that expensive.

Exactly, that's a steal compared for other strong troop choices. 2 pts more than a plague marine for extra armor, firepower, ignores armor, just crazy. GK units will probably define MSU but that in itself may be a draw back to them, who knows.

When I was talking to some of my mates about the re-rolled save, they were trying to persuade me it's too over-powered. But really, it's just like FNP. Just a better save, and if you get re-rolls for inv and cover saves aswell, then it becomes partially immune to ap1 and 2 weapons. Should be interesting to see how it plays out. =]

Oshova

Melissia wrote:Define "not that expensive"?

25 points for MEQ, a storm bolter, power weapon, artificer armor, and special rules like shrouding doesn't necessarily seem that expensive.

I agree here, however, the old dex they were super expensive MEQ equivalents, which made it so your army was teeny and not very strong. I just hope they fix it; if we're stuck with smaller units of guys that cost a lot more, at least make them worth it. A PW and stormbolter would be a good way to do it (include a bolt pistol too!). Rerollable saves will be nice, but Plasma Cannons will still be the bane of them :( Though GK Termis will be damn awesome if this does come to fruition (imagine 3+ rerollable stormshield termis @_@)

Melissia wrote:Define "not that expensive"?

25 points for MEQ, a storm bolter, power weapon, artificer armor, and special rules like shrouding doesn't necessarily seem that expensive.

The only problem is that they can't really wreck tanks. Hopefully they will have access to Melta or get an AT psychic power or something. At the very least they need to give Psycannons rending.

Stupid question... What does MEQ mean?

"Marine Equivalent" - basically anything with a 3+ save and, maybe, T4.

Mike Noble wrote:

The only problem is that they can't really wreck tanks. Hopefully they will have access to Melta or get an AT psychic power or something. At the very least they need to give Psycannons rending.

It depends on what they want the focus to be. I've heard another rumor somewhere that they want to make all PAGK NFW rending, and if they do that, they can blow up a damn land raider in CC. Ridiculous.

Troop shooting? Not really, but not only will the inquisition section have plenty of anti-tank, you'll have dreadnoughts, land raiders, thunderhammers, etc. that can take care of heavier armor.

I think I read on another forum, (bols, maybe?,) that GKTs could possibly have a wrist mounted CML, too.

bforber wrote:

Mike Noble wrote:

The only problem is that they can't really wreck tanks. Hopefully they will have access to Melta or get an AT psychic power or something. At the very least they need to give Psycannons rending.

It depends on what they want the focus to be. I've heard another rumor somewhere that they want to make all PAGK NFW rending, and if they do that, they can blow up a damn land raider in CC. Ridiculous.

Troop shooting? Not really, but not only will the inquisition section have plenty of anti-tank, you'll have dreadnoughts, land raiders, thunderhammers, etc. that can take care of heavier armor.

I think I read on another forum, (bols, maybe?,) that GKTs could possibly have a wrist mounted CML, too.

I too have heard that GK Termies are getting access to a broader assortment of weapons. I also heard that GKs might get a wrist mounted CML. (Warseer thread)

I'm still salivation over the idea of a chapter master with NF Lightningclaws.

All I wanna know is:
WHEN?!
everyone here's saying january, but the manager at my FLGS says about feb/march.

February/March makes more sense. That's when they generally do a release. January is normally pretty light since they rely on christmas money to boost sales still. By February they are looking at needing to make people want to spend money so they do a codex release (ala Nids).

shrike wrote:All I wanna know is:
WHEN?!
everyone here's saying january, but the manager at my FLGS says about feb/march.

Hoping for January.
Most solid info at the moment is some point in Q1 of next year.

January-March you say? Why that's where my brithday hits! It must be fate. Even though I don't play gk, I may buy the codex to check out the fluff and whatnot. I hope the plastics look might fine.

Yeah finally I can make that model From grey knight parts from plastic!
Celebrate good times COME ON!

Alright, so we can probably throw a January release date out the window. The latest Incoming! email from GW says January is Skaven stuff.

Alpharius wrote:"Marine Equivalent" - basically anything with a 3+ save and, maybe, T4.

No, MEQ is generally 4 across the board for physical stats (S/T/I) and a 3+ save. A 3+ save alone does not make MEQ (and never has-- unless you're going to say that Eldar is MEQ because it has some 3+ saves? ).

Melissia wrote:

Alpharius wrote:"Marine Equivalent" - basically anything with a 3+ save and, maybe, T4.

No, MEQ is generally 4 across the board for physical stats (S/T/I) and a 3+ save. A 3+ save alone does not make MEQ (and never has-- unless you're going to say that Eldar is MEQ because it has some 3+ saves? ).

You always know better, dont you?

Alpharius' definition of MEQ may or may not be correct, depending on the aspect you are looking at. You are jut trying to start a fight.

Dude, don't counter Troll with Trolling, lest it appear to be yourself just trying to start a fight.

Now back on topic, if that's not too hard work.

Personally, I'm looking forward to the release of Grey Knights. If the Dark Eldar Quality Factor continues onwards, we're in for a treat!

Mr Mystery offers good advice - it is best to avoid Trolls altogether. When left unfed, they usually go away.

However, IF you feel there's a Troll about, just use the Mod Alert button.

Anyway, MEQ armies are widely held to be those that have a majority of 3+ armor saves. The rest of the "MEQ Stats" may differ.

For example, Necrons certainly don't have I4, but they do have S4 and T4.

I ask the question to dakkadakka! What will you do with the Grey Knight Upgrade pack? Will you upgrade your marines to make them look like badasses?

Alpharius wrote:Mr Mystery offers good advice - it is best to avoid Trolls altogether. When left unfed, they usually go away.

Sage advice. I find that even when they aren't specifically trolling, if you don't reply to anything they say, they never have a chance to start. Sometimes they have very devious plans.

Asherian Command wrote:I ask the question to dakkadakka! What will you do with the Grey Knight Upgrade pack? Will you upgrade your marines to make them look like badasses?

Who said there was going to be a gk upgrade pack?

My apologies for helping to take this thread off topic.

If users wish to start threads on OT points which have popped up here, please feel free to do so in the relevant forum sections.

No more in here though, OK?

If there was a GK upgrade pack, I'd probably upgrade my marines and never play codex chapter again. lol

I dont think they'll be an upgrade pack. SW and BA have supplied entire figs. While yes though some units like SW scouts do require an extra set.

kenshin620 wrote:I dont think they'll be an upgrade pack. SW and BA have supplied entire figs. While yes though some units like SW scouts do require an extra set.

What about black templar?

Munch Munch! wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:I dont think they'll be an upgrade pack. SW and BA have supplied entire figs. While yes though some units like SW scouts do require an extra set.

What about black templar?

When did they come out?

Alpharius wrote:My apologies for helping to take this thread off topic.

If users wish to start threads on OT points which have popped up here, please feel free to do so in the relevant forum sections.

No more in here though, OK?

But I am asking what if the Grey Knights had an upgrade sprue like Blood Angels, would people use them or will their be no spure?

kenshin620 wrote:

Munch Munch! wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:I dont think they'll be an upgrade pack. SW and BA have supplied entire figs. While yes though some units like SW scouts do require an extra set.

What about black templar?

When did they come out?

Well played Kenshin, wel played. Alright to use more recent examples, what about the skaven slaves slings pack, crimson fists upgrade kit, or the sm character conversion pack forge world is coming out with.

Munch Munch! wrote:
Well played Kenshin, wel played. Alright to use more recent examples, what about the skaven slaves slings pack, crimson fists upgrade kit, or the sm character conversion pack forge world is coming out with.

The slings I think are classic but if not they are metal anyways. Crimson Fists are part of Codex Space Marines and are also metal, plus there are numerous other metal marine packs from of old such as iron warriors, night lords, iron hands, and a boatload of shoulder pads. These are more for modelers value than gaming. Forge World sets have a good deal of conversions such as the chaos renegades. If something does not look like it requires a whole extra body then FW could leave that out since it could save quite a bit of cash to consumers

Uh, wow... I'm pretty sure the rumors indicate a full plastic kit. Grey Knight Power Armour is pretty different from standard PA, with wrist mounted SBs, and the Knight style helmet, as well as the Liber Demonica on the chest or shoulderpad, as well as all the anti-daemon engaravings that the average set of Grey Knight armour has.

Depending on what wargear options we get there may be some quality bitzz left over...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That being said, if FW also released extra GK conversion bits, that would be bloody awsome.

I think you mean throw

Asherian Command wrote:

Alpharius wrote:My apologies for helping to take this thread off topic.

If users wish to start threads on OT points which have popped up here, please feel free to do so in the relevant forum sections.

No more in here though, OK?

But I am asking what if the Grey Knights had an upgrade sprue like Blood Angels, would people use them or will their be no spure?

THAT is fine to continue to talk about.

I was referencing the actual off topic stuff.

It's a shame Daemonhosts are out -- be nice to have some use for what are quite pretty models. I might count them as Death Cult Assassins, if the latter are any use.

Anyone got a clue as to whether GKTs will still have a TH/SS option? I have a few I was halfway through converting, which I've suspended operations on till I find out if they're obsolete or not.

Ian Sturrock wrote:It's a shame Daemonhosts are out -- be nice to have some use for what are quite pretty models. I might count them as Death Cult Assassins, if the latter are any use.

Anyone got a clue as to whether GKTs will still have a TH/SS option? I have a few I was halfway through converting, which I've suspended operations on till I find out if they're obsolete or not.

I would assume so. I find it hard to believe they would take it away considering just about every other terminator has access to them. Hell, it might be free if their NFW count as force weapons now.

I can't wait for the new codex next year to see what they have added. I'm going to love plastic models instead of the metal models because when the super glue gets old my GK Termies lose an arm in the middle of battle.

Mn, if the rules are good enough I'll consider getting some. Grey Knights are awesome, and have great models.

Melissia wrote:

Balance wrote:What's the difference between the two, especially if there's an option or two to 'church up' the unit by adding a priest or similar in?

Guard have standardized equipment, yes, even Conscripts. Frateris Militia basically have whatever they have on hand when they were roused, or occasionally cheap autoguns. But Frateris Militia are better motivated and often include gangers, crusaders, and other groups that are more skilled than the average conscript. Both are undisciplined, but Frateris Militia are more likely to charge at the enemy than to run away in fear.

It's like the difference between... Ork Boyz and Termagants outside of Synapse range.

it still sounds like you could represent both equally well with options to (1) add a Priest or similar to make them react funny to morale stuff, (2) upgrade or downgrade weapons to simulate better or worse recruits.

No need to add a 2nd unit description. Which, as you have complained about, would be a non-SoB unit.

Balance, we've been asked to cease talking about SoB by the mods...

Yes please no mention of the battle nuns.. lest this thread grow to like 500 pages overnight

Asherian Command wrote:I ask the question to dakkadakka! What will you do with the Grey Knight Upgrade pack? Will you upgrade your marines to make them look like badasses?

Green stuff + DC Kit + SG Kit + PAGK Kit + FW Iron Armor = Pre-Heresy 1ksons. Yup.

The interchangeability of all the kits already rocks, adding in GK helms and nemesis force weapons and the works ... yum.

wolfshadow wrote:Balance, we've been asked to cease talking about SoB by the mods...

My apologizes. The subject is dropped.

Grumpy? With the occasional diversion, we've talked about ...

No, I just like to see the thread stay on topic and I'm not alone in that sentiment. In fact, I have official support on that from the Moderators.

What is the time frame that is likely for this GK release? I haven't heard anything from my contacts and since Skaven are out in January that's not necessarily when we'll see Grey Knights.

Q1 of next year. Jan_Feb, with some rumors as late as march.

Stickmonkey put them January initially from his source, but as always, subject to change.

I seriously hope that the new GK are the god-like charaters they depict in the fluff.

I mean, an awesome statline, but expensive as hell. I mean 25-40 points for a PAGK. As long as the models are kick-ass, I will buy them.

S_P

Space_Potato wrote:I seriously hope that the new GK are the god-like charaters they depict in the fluff.

I mean, an awesome statline, but expensive as hell. I mean 25-40 points for a PAGK. As long as the models are kick-ass, I will buy them.

S_P

They will definately have to adapt their special rules for the 5th edtion. Anything lackluster and expensive will be considered a waste of points. And if those expensive units are troops, don't expect many players to even consider 5th edtion Grey Knights any better than their prior incarnation.

Again, blatantly stolen from StickMonkey over @ Warseer where the DK discussion is getting decidely heated between INQ and GK players:

Army List guesses:

From what I've been able to gather, the codex has the following counts...caveats apply:

Including SCs, not including variant units ex. exterminator/demolished

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries

Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.

wolfshadow wrote:
Including SCs, not including variant units ex. exterminator/demolished

Hq: 8-9 entries
El: 6-7 entries
Tr: 6 entries
Fa: 7 entries
He: 8 Entries
Dt: 4 entries
39 Total
Ive heard the Army list section is between 12-14 pages.

To compare (for the 'making a codex is zero sum and having inquisition takes away from GK' crowd)
Imperial Guard -
HQ - 10
El - 5
Tr - 7 (10 if you count Bast, Al'Rahem, Chek)
FA - 6
He - 5
DT - 1
34(37) Total
14 Pages

Same rules, 1 count per entry (variants don't count unless they have a separate entry) SC's counted.

And apples to apples, MEQ 'dex:

Space Wolves
HQ - 10
El - 6 (+Arjac)
Tr - 2 (+Lukas)
FA - 5
He - 7
DT - 3
33 (35) Total
14 Pages

Are we sure they're going to be released soon? If GW didn't showcase any models at gamesday we might be waiting for a while!! I wanna see pictures!!

Based on the recent info on forums and info given to GW staff nearly a year ago, it's about as definite (again, not definate as someone posted above, why do I keep seeing that?) as you can get. But GW keeps their advance notice short and focused these days and they are not going to distract buyers from the Dark Eldar release, new Skaven and other already announced items till the store tills are filled with sales of those items. They've not even announced details of the Skaven release yet and I wouldn't expect to hear about the next big 40K release till GW is sure the DE release is a hit.

BrassScorpion wrote:Based on the recent info on forums and info given to GW staff nearly a year ago, it's about as definite (again, not definate as someone posted above, why do I keep seeing that?) as you can get. But GW keeps their advance notice short and focused these days and they are not going to distract buyers from the Dark Eldar release, new Skaven and other already announced items till the store tills are filled with sales of those items. They've not even announced details of the Skaven release yet and I wouldn't expect to hear about the next big 40K release till GW is sure the DE release is a hit.

I dont even like DE and I want to buy some. :-) awsome models.

wolfshadow wrote:

I dont even like DE and I want to buy some. :-) awsome models.

Begone Heretic! There are 2 threads already dedicated to those sadomasochistic elfs. This thread has been consecrated for the 666th chapter and their pre-apocalypse release. (Though this reads quite harshly it is intended as a joke- Grey Knights only have Nemesis Force Humor)

Given the Inquisition units leaked so far, how many choices in each slot are left to GK?

Gitzbitah wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

I dont even like DE and I want to buy some. :-) awsome models.

Begone Heretic! There are 2 threads already dedicated to those sadomasochistic elfs. This thread has been consecrated for the 666th chapter and their pre-apocalypse release. (Though this reads quite harshly it is intended as a joke- Grey Knights only have Nemesis Force Humor)

Given the Inquisition units leaked so far, how many choices in each slot are left to GK?

Assuming no overlap and perfect rumors (I don't imagine that we know everything.)

Inquisition
HQ - 1 Lord
Elite - 3 ISTs, DCA, Temple Assassins
Troops - 2 Conscripts, Penal Legion
Fast - 1 HellHound
Hvy - 1 Deathstrike
DT - 2 Chim, Valk
10 Units

GK
Hq: 7-8 entries
El: 3-4 entries
Tr: 4 entries
Fa: 6 entries
He: 7 Entries
Dt: 2 entries
29 Total

Another comparison, Codex DH had 4 HQ, 5 Elite, 2 Troop, 5 Hvy, 3 DT. 19 Units (not counting allies). So double the size.

I would imagine @ least one inquisitor being a special charachter. And I would bet for some sort of Inq in Elite spot like last time.

Asherian Command wrote:But I am asking what if the Grey Knights had an upgrade sprue like Blood Angels, would people use them or will their be no spure?

I don't think GW will do an upgrade sprue like BA, DA or SW - GK are just too different-looking. They should be all-new sculpts like BA Death Company or BA Sang Guard to allow the requisite Artificer detailing on the GK legs, torsos, etc.
____

@petre: I'd expect a bit more "Inq" stuff, but we'll see...

I'm pretty interested in this codex. Not for Grey Knights, but I've always liked the idea of Inquisitor Strike Force with a bunch of ISTs, etc.

eNvY wrote:I'm pretty interested in this codex. Not for Grey Knights, but I've always liked the idea of Inquisitor Strike Force with a bunch of ISTs, etc.

I never really got much use out of Inquistors, they'res always throwing their acolytes to the slaughter and then higher tailing it for cover. ISTs are good for a cheap unit to fill in the gaps, but are pretty much cannon fodder the true power in a Daemon Hunter army comes from and will always come from the Grey Knights. They have always made up their points back heck even my 5 man Purge squad have.

There hasn't been a real 'upgrade sprue' since Black Templars. Dark Angels and beyond have been full kits, containing whole models rather than just bits to add to existing models. Sure, there have been bitz for other models on those sprues (Deathwing parts on the DA sprue, Wolf Scout parts on the Woof sprue), but these are (more or less) complete kits.

The GK's will get the same treatment I suspect, both in PA and TA.

So Chimera and Valk are the ]['s dedicated transports, which of these do you think will be available for Grey Knights?

Land Raider+ variants- Precedence set in C:BA
Rhino- was in CH for ][
Razorback with twin linked psycannons- Has a model from FW

I'm pulling for the Razorback and would be happy with either of the other two. I think I'm as excited for this book as DE players are for theirs.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@pretre: I'd expect a bit more "Inq" stuff, but we'll see...

Yeah, I'm just going off what we know so far. I imagine Elite inq will be in there and probably a few other cool fluffy units. No rumors on them yet though.

The big thing for me is that the GK range is substantially increased and the Inq range is maintained. That's best of both worlds and bodes well for later inquisition codexes.

That and I'm glad that the zealots vacated this thread and headed for the sexy sob thread.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gamble wrote:So Chimera and Valk are the ]['s dedicated transports, which of these do you think will be available for Grey Knights?

Land Raider+ variants- Precedence set in C:BA
Rhino- was in CH for ][
Razorback with twin linked psycannons- Has a model from FW

I'm pulling for the Razorback and would be happy with either of the other two. I think I'm as excited for this book as DE players are for theirs.

I'm betting Stormraven with PsyCrusaders too, but that may just be a heavy option. Are terms allowed in a SR? BA codex just says JP troops take up two, but doesn't exclude TDA. I'd assume 2 per slot.

So 5 GK Term and a HQ in a SR with a Lib Dread? Yes, please! That's 1000 pt army right there. lol

The number of fast attack choices seems a bit high though (7). Even if one is the Hellhound that leaves six.

It would be nice if Armoured Sentinels could also be taken, but this probably isn't likely.

hmm, this could be good or bad for the gk... we will have to wait and see

TBD wrote:The number of fast attack choices seems a bit high though (7). Even if one is the Hellhound that leaves six.

It would be nice if Armoured Sentinels could also be taken, but this probably isn't likely.

It is actually 8, if you count the HH, based on rumors.

Okay, lets get speculative based on what we 'know':

Inquisition
HQ - 1 Lord
Elite - 3 ISTs, DCA, Temple Assassins
Troops - 2 Conscripts, Penal Legion
Fast - 1 HellHound
Hvy - 1 Deathstrike
DT - 2 Chim, Valk
10 Units

GK
Hq: 7-8 entries GK GM, 2(3)x Characters, GK Hero, Lib Dread, Chaplain, Retinue, ???
El: 3-4 entries TA Knights, Walker, Dread
Tr: 4 entries PA GK, ???, ???, ???
Fa: 6 entries Storm Raven, Landspeeder*, New GK FA Choice*, ???, ???, ???
He: 7 Entries Crusader, LR, Redeemer, Purgation Squad, ???, ???, ???
Dt: 2 entries, RazorBack, Rhino*
29 Total

* are added by me speculatively.

Gamble wrote:So Chimera and Valk are the ]['s dedicated transports, which of these do you think will be available for Grey Knights?

Land Raider+ variants- Precedence set in C:BA
Rhino- was in C: DH for ][
Razorback with twin linked psycannons- Has a model from FW

I'm pulling for the Razorback and would be happy with either of the other two. I think I'm as excited for this book as DE players are for theirs.

I'd expect Land Raider and Storm Raven, along with Drop Pods.

I would *NOT* expect Rhino or Razorbacks, simply to drive home the message that GK aren't regular SMs, and to force different tactics. This is a chance for GW to differentiate GKs as not ordinary SMs, and removing all Rhinos & Razorbacks is a *great* way to do that.
____

TBD wrote:The number of fast attack choices seems a bit high though (7). Even if one is the Hellhound that leaves six.

It would be nice if Armoured Sentinels could also be taken, but this probably isn't likely.

Sentinels are rather specific to the Guard, but I could see them. I could also easily see Inquisition (finally!!) getting a Kan-like AV12 Combat Walker with DNCCWs & HF / HB / MM. Ideally, it would be drop-transportable in a Valk, like an Elysian Sentinel. This would give Inquisition massed air-strike capablity based on Valks & SRGs.


==== I ====

Getting speculative? OK, I'll take a stab.

Inquisition
3/8 HQ - Lord + 3 Special Chars (Malleus, Sicarus)
5/7 Elite - Inq. Stormies, Death Cultists, Temple Assassins + Psyker Battle Squad, Assault Ogryns
5/6 Troops - Conscript Guardsmen, Penal Legion + Assault Servitors, Gun Servitors, Veteran Guardsmen
5/7 Fast - Valkyrie, HellHound + Vendetta, Armored Sentinel, Assault Sentinel
2/8 Heavy - Deathstrike + Leman Russ Battle Tank
1/4 Trans - Chimera
total = 21/40 Units

Grey Knights
5/8 HQ: Master + 4 Special Characters (Stern, Fighter, Psyker, Dread)
2/7 Elite: GK Termies, Ven. Dreadnought
1/6 Troops: AA Grey Knights
2/7 Fast: AA GK w/ JPs, Landspeeder
6/8 Heavy: GK Purgation Squad, Dreadnought, Ironclad Dreadnought Storm Raven, Storm Raven Demolisher, Battlecannon Storm Raven
3/4 Trans: Land Raider, Crusader, Redeemer
total = 19/40 Total

explanation

There are a number of big jumps here, which are rather unprecedented - I'll try to explain my reasoning.

Inq HQ is small, as they're still just men, and not super visible. I'd expect Malleus (for GKs) and Sicarus (for Assassins) special characters to flesh this section out.

Inq Elite is a giant grab bag of neat stuff that can be used to flesh out an army. PBS is an obvious adder, and shares models to the IG when they go into production, much like Inq Stormies will also share. Ogryns of some sort are also obvious, and easily doable, after Ogre Kingdoms, also share with IG.

Inq Troops are the bulk, and massed, Fearless, mind-wiped Servitors help drive home Fluff of how the Inquisition really is fearsome, giving something of an Undead Vampire Counts flavor. The only missing piece are Fantatic non-Stormie humans, which would be IG Veteran equivalent. I'd expect Carapace to be standard for Vets & Servitors, to differentiate against 5+ Guardsmen and 3+ Sisters.

Inq Fast, I add the Sentinels, with a Assault Sentinel replacing the basic Sentinel - it's a model that the Imperium needs, and could be done as a 2-in-1 kit like the IG Sentinel. Both variants are AV12, again, differentiating as "better" than regular Guard stuff.

Inq Heavy & Transport is just the LRBT (with some integral variants, but *not* squadronable), Deathstrike, & Chimera making space for GK armor - this is where the Inq is "weak", and NOT like Guard which is strong on Heavy.

Inq is more elite than Guard, more reliable, but doesn't lay down the firepower in the same way.


GK HQs have 5 slots, because these are awesomely mighty heroes. The Captain & Librarian combine into Master ("all GK are Psykers"). NO Chaplain to be NOT SMs.

GK Troops & Elite are just GKTs , AA GKs, & Ven Dread. Clean & simple.

GK Fast gain Jump Packs (which is like Teleport, but modeled, rather than "invisible"). vanilla shooty Landspeeders are fine as-is, but no Storm, because that's SM *Scouts*

GK Heavy keeps the Purgation squad, adds requisite Dreads (use Dread-specific bitz included in new AAGK & GKT squads), along with the all-new 3-in-1 Stormraven kit: basic transport (see BAs), demolisher and battlecannon (looks just like a mini Thunderhawk!). Note that Valk squadrons (above) don't compete with SRG squadrons, so a player could conceivably field 9 Valks & 9 SRGs, assuming they had sufficient points. Cool!

GK Transports gets all of the Land Raiders; no Rhino or Razorbacks.

On net, GKs are more elite than SMs, with some massive DS "blitz" ability (GKTs, Pods, Landspeeders & JPs, Stormravens). I imagine that GK Land Raiders will Deep Strike for "FREE", just because GW knows it winds certain players up.

Plastics

Wave 1:
GK Termies
3-in-1 AA GK / JPs / Purgation
3-in-1 Stormraven Gunship / Demolisher / Battlecannon (share with BA)

Wave 2:
2-in-1 Inq Stormtroopers / Inq Veterans (share with IG)
2-in-1 Sentinel / Inq Assault ~Sentinel
2-in-1 Ogryns / Assault Ogryns (share with IG)

Wave 3 (C: Sisters of Battle release):
3-in-1 Psyker Battle Squad / Conscripts / Penal Legion (share with IG; double as Sisters Frateris Militia)
2-in-1 Servitors / Assault Servitors (share with Sisters)


*Whew*, lots of wishlisting there, but definitely doable.

I see no reason why there wouldn't be a Gk chaplain. it's not like they don't exist. If anything I wouldn't be surprised if they made them into an elite selection like BA and added something reclusiarch-esque to the captain/master/paladin/whatever.

Is it written in the Fluff that the GK have Chaplains? GKs are intrinsically fanatically devoted to the Emperor, like a Cult Marine, so I don't think they're necessary in the same way that "all GK are Psykers" makes the Librarian redundant.

Fundamentally, Grey Knights are simply a different flavor of Chaos Marines, and should be treated and designed as such, with the GK Codex serving as prototype for Codex: Chaos Legions.

Hey, so, just as folks have been using the BA and SW codices to resurrect their Chaos armies without using the lameduck C:CSM, I can use the GK list for my Chaos army? Now that's even more ironic than using BA or SW lists. Perfect.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Is it written in the Fluff that the GK have Chaplains? GKs are intrinsically fanatically devoted to the Emperor, like a Cult Marine, so I don't think they're necessary in the same way that "all GK are Psykers" makes the Librarian redundant.

Yup, it's in one of the Grey knights novels, either the 1st or 2nd one can't remember which.

Death By Monkeys wrote:Hey, so, just as folks have been using the BA and SW codices to resurrect their Chaos armies without using the lameduck C:CSM, I can use the GK list for my Chaos army? Now that's even more ironic than using BA or SW lists. Perfect.

Fearless? Check. +1 SM statline? Check. Bonus rules? Check. It's a Cult Marine.

Which, BTW, only makes sense, as it appears GW is retconning / fleshing out the GK as an amalgam of the handful of Traitor Legion Loyalist Marines who survived Istvaan III and similar purge efforts as the Heresy got under way.
____

Grarg wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Is it written in the Fluff that the GK have Chaplains? GKs are intrinsically fanatically devoted to the Emperor, like a Cult Marine, so I don't think they're necessary in the same way that "all GK are Psykers" makes the Librarian redundant.

Yup, it's in one of the Grey knights novels, either the 1st or 2nd one can't remember which.

Thanks for the pointer.

So if the novels are to be taken as canon, perhaps GK Purgation squads will be armed with Multi-Lazors, yes???

JohnHwangDD wrote:

I would *NOT* expect Rhino or Razorbacks, simply to drive home the message that GK aren't regular SMs, and to force different tactics. This is a chance for GW to differentiate GKs as not ordinary SMs, and removing all Rhinos & Razorbacks is a *great* way to do that.

Razorbacks were listed on the first page in the rumors and a 'battle report' from the GKs.

Getting speculative? OK, I'll take a stab.

All sorts of speculation. I like the servitor listings. Not a huge fan of the crazy SR's with Demo and BC, but whatever.

explanation

I could see PBS, not sure about Ogryn (but I'm not a fan of them for IG either). I also like the consistent 'better' than IG but not as good as SM/Sisters approach your wishlisting has.

GK Rhinos & Razorbacks? Major disappointment. Oh, well.

Stormraven will be at least a 2-in-1, and the Battlecannon is obvious. A second barrel is cheap, and lets it fill the Vindi role.

Ogryns are pretty fanatic, and they desperately need a plastic kit, along with halfway decent rules.

I'm with Jonnyboy that the GK's shouldn't have Rhinos and Razorbacks (or any Rhino-based vehicle for that matter). If the Rhino/Razorback makes it into the Codex, it should be an option for Inquisitorial units only, not any GK units.

And really, the R-Back is a Marine unit, unique to them like the Pred, Vindi and Whirly.

Bugger about the razors. So nows the time to shelf all the psycannon turrets?

I'd like to see the Razorback, but only for Purgation Squads.
Psycannon turret FTW.

kenshin620 wrote:Bugger about the razors. So nows the time to shelf all the psycannon turrets?

They're an Inquisitorial transport option anyway, not a GK transport option.

Why not let them have it?

The only reason they don't have it in their current codex is because in 3rd Ed Rhino Rush Assault armies were broken. GW made the GK's stupid awesome in assault (well at the time anyway), but removed the Rhino option in order to curtail any abuse that would've happened in 3rd Ed.

They're Marines. They should have what Marines have, with more options/specialization, and pay for their benefits.

Here's hoping they finally get Meltas and the like. To kill Soul Grinders.

So GK's are too cool to ride in metal boxes? All the cool kids teleport into battle...

H.B.M.C. wrote:

kenshin620 wrote:Bugger about the razors. So nows the time to shelf all the psycannon turrets?

They're an Inquisitorial transport option anyway, not a GK transport option.

Do you know something we dont?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:Why not let them have it?



Here's hoping they finally get Meltas and the like. To kill Soul Grinders.

Oh the conversion possibilities. :-)

It was in the IA book.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm with Jonnyboy that the GK's shouldn't have Rhinos and Razorbacks (or any Rhino-based vehicle for that matter). If the Rhino/Razorback makes it into the Codex, it should be an option for Inquisitorial units only, not any GK units.

And really, the R-Back is a Marine unit, unique to them like the Pred, Vindi and Whirly.

I'd be fine with not having Rhinos/Razors. LR spam usually works like a charm for me with GK,anyways,and with everything trending towards mech,it would be nice to see a competitive footslogging SM army. If the rumors for rerolling armor saves are true,then against most armies you are beter off footslogging and softening up units with SB fire,anyways. If you run accross someone with BC's,then you hide the footsloggers behind the LR's while they advance. If GK can reroll saves AND get access to cheap transports,then I think the army will become overpowered. They'd just be too difficult to dig off of objectives.

Hope they dont get rhinos and raxorbacks, just the ISTs.

I cant see GKs riding to battle in tin cans, such quality troops arent risked in drop pods and paper thin rhinos, they should go protected in landraiders to ensure the biggest possible chance that they reach where they are needed.

Plus their shtick is teleportation. They're one of the few groups that Teleports PA units, and it sets them apart.

They should get Heroic Intervention

And Teleporting Land Raiders.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And Teleporting Land Raiders.

This would make me LOL. Deepstriking Promethus in the middle of the enemies deployment, BAWOOSH! with the giant flamey clouds of death.

And Sternguard Veteran Special Issue Ammunition for all their Stormbolters...

wolfshadow wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:And Teleporting Land Raiders.

This would make me LOL. Deepstriking Promethus in the middle of the enemies deployment, BAWOOSH! with the giant flamey clouds of death.

Oh god, please tell me Matt Ward isn't working the GK codex. First it's deep striking land raiders, and next thing you know, you'll have the GK teaming up with Khorne Berzerkers to banish some daemonettes before leaving as the bestest of friends.

It would be cool if you could upgrade to some unique heavy version of the GK flamer thing for the Flamer-Landraider

Incinerator Cannons on the Grey Knight Redeemer. They could just be the current rules + Ignore Invul Saves.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Incinerator Cannons on the Grey Knight Redeemer. They could just be the current rules + Ignore Invul Saves.

Isn't that pretty much what this is?

Hmm...well, that's a shame. I liked the idea of Daemonhosts, if nothing else. I wouldn't mind them being updated rather than just scratched completely. One of the reasons I made a Chaos army in the first place was for the diversity of troop, rather than just the same baseline soldier with varying equipment.

Commander Endova wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Incinerator Cannons on the Grey Knight Redeemer. They could just be the current rules + Ignore Invul Saves.

Isn't that pretty much what this is?

pretty much, though the rules for it state that it only ignores cover IIRC

Because FW are gak at writing rules, and Warwick probably just copypasta'd the entry from the Marine Codex, did a find replace on "Space Marine" with "Grey Knight", and went home early for the day (exhausted, of course).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Because FW are gak at writing rules, and Warwick probably just copypasta'd the entry from the Marine Codex, did a find replace on "Space Marine" with "Grey Knight", and went home early for the day (exhausted, of course).

Except they don't say that. It correctly states that the Flamestorm Incinerators ignore invulnerable saves.

I dunno. The product description says they are Flamestorm Incinerators, so I just assumed.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Is it written in the Fluff that the GK have Chaplains?

Yes, ROC army list.

Gamble wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Is it written in the Fluff that the GK have Chaplains?

Yes, ROC army list.

Then, none of the PA GK are Psykers? OK...

This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

It's almost like there's this thing called points cost, and by giving units powerful abilities you can increase their points costs, which allows you to take less of them. Which thusly balances them.

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Not at all. Re-rolled saves simply mean that the GKs fail 3% (vs 17%) of their AA/TDA saves, 25% (vs 50%) of their cover saves, or 44% (vs 67%) of their Invul saves. It's better, but not really earth shattering - massed fire of the appropriate type will still be effective, just somewhat less so. It's not like they're auto-passing or getting those saves for free. Nor is it likely that they'll have the full breadth of attack ability that the IG and SM contain. It's sounding like a defensive Rock army.

There's nothing wrong with a Chaplain in a Grey Knights organization.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Gamble wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:Is it written in the Fluff that the GK have Chaplains?

Yes, ROC army list.

Then, none of the PA GK are Psykers? OK...

Why would these statements be connected?

Did you ever read the ROC GK list? Or the ROC GK Fluff?

Irrelevant. Why would chaplains being in the Grey Knights mean that the average Grey Knight is not a psyker? They would HAVE to be a psyker to use NFWs, so you would be claiming the average Grey Knight does not have an NFW, despite fluff saying otherwise.

MVBrandt wrote:
Much will rest on the shoulders of the Anointed Armor rumor - if it's true that their GK models get to re-roll basically all saves, that alone will ensure the quality of the dex - coupled/ w the option for cheap horde troops, you'll be able to field GK that don't simply die when you point a few heavier or spammier weapons in their over-pointsed direction.

This is good as it might force a step away from mech lists, they'll be hardy enough on their own to walk around undenied.

Problem comes in where they can't pop six rhinos over the course of a game, and I don't see this problem being fixed with any new rumors, other armies with razorback spam will walk all over it.

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Not at all. Re-rolled saves simply mean that the GKs fail 3% (vs 17%) of their AA/TDA saves, 25% (vs 50%) of their cover saves, or 44% (vs 67%) of their Invul saves. It's better, but not really earth shattering - massed fire of the appropriate type will still be effective, just somewhat less so. It's not like they're auto-passing or getting those saves for free. Nor is it likely that they'll have the full breadth of attack ability that the IG and SM contain. It's sounding like a defensive Rock army.

I hadn't done the math, and assuming your correct, you don't find those numbers to be significant? I find them game breaking. Even if they are a defensive army. It's hard to neuter the offensive capabilities of an army that doesn't die.

Melissia wrote:Irrelevant. Why would chaplains being in the Grey Knights mean that the average Grey Knight is not a psyker? They would HAVE to be a psyker to use NFWs, so you would be claiming the average Grey Knight does not have an NFW, despite fluff saying otherwise.

Do you even know what the ROC list is, Melissia?

great... the age old realms of chaos discussion. me thinks this is where i leave

I can define what the Realms of Chaos list is in fifth edition with a single word.

"Irrelevant."

So, why shouldn't Grey Knights be psykers and have chaplains at the same time?

Melissia wrote:Irrelevant. Why would chaplains being in the Grey Knights mean that the average Grey Knight is not a psyker? They would HAVE to be a psyker to use NFWs, so you would be claiming the average Grey Knight does not have an NFW, despite fluff saying otherwise.

As usual, you just don't get it, and then you go on a random tangent to claim things that I'm not saying.

If one is using RoC as the basis, then the Fluff and units go hand in hand - the vast bulk of GKs are non-Psykers and the have Chaplains.

If one uses DH as the basis, then all GKs are devoted Psykers, and things like Captains, Chaplains and Librarians are completely redundant.

Next time, please learn to pay attention and understand before replying.

Thanks!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sarge wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Not at all. Re-rolled saves simply mean that the GKs fail 3% (vs 17%) of their AA/TDA saves, 25% (vs 50%) of their cover saves, or 44% (vs 67%) of their Invul saves. It's better, but not really earth shattering - massed fire of the appropriate type will still be effective, just somewhat less so. It's not like they're auto-passing or getting those saves for free. Nor is it likely that they'll have the full breadth of attack ability that the IG and SM contain. It's sounding like a defensive Rock army.

I hadn't done the math, and assuming your correct, you don't find those numbers to be significant? I find them game breaking.

Even if they are a defensive army. It's hard to neuter the offensive capabilities of an army that doesn't die.

Nope, not in the slightest. If you don't take any Heavy / Special / Ordnance weapons, I can see that to be the case.

Because Necrons and Deathwing and Wraithguard and Plague Marines are totally dominating? I didn't know that.

Yeah, Melissia, you missed the point completely. John was making a fairly simple comparison, and it went right over your head.

Its easy, RoC = chaplains and no psychers OR latest fluff = no chaplains and psychers.
(or the B.Counter fluff that contains both psycher GKs and chaplains)

You cant simply pick and choose bits and pieces from various fluff sources into an amalgamation that only suits a certain view.
I´d say if GW want to pick and choose and create a codex (with newest and thus truest fluff) that contain both chaplains and psycher GKs then it is up to GW to decide this.

All we have to do is wait and see what they decide to do.

Bah why dont we just have GK Librarian Chaplains with Orbital Bombardment? Solves everyone's problem!

Only if those Orbital Bombardments consist of back-flipping Multi-Lazor-armed Dreadnoughts surfing atop Land Raiders which transform back and forth into Razorbacks ...


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Hey, I just got an email from Matt Ward, thanking me for my suggestion.

When do you think Daemon hunters are coming out anyway? I'd put my money of February...

D.P. Gumby wrote:When do you think Daemon hunters are coming out anyway? I'd put my money of February...

Probably. Skaven are booked for Jan I think. arent Orcs and Goblins getting an update too? March I think?

Sarge wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Sarge wrote:This may have been discussed at length already and if so I apologize. Nobody else thinks an entire army rerolling failed saves is well beyond left field?

Not at all. Re-rolled saves simply mean that the GKs fail 3% (vs 17%) of their AA/TDA saves, 25% (vs 50%) of their cover saves, or 44% (vs 67%) of their Invul saves. It's better, but not really earth shattering - massed fire of the appropriate type will still be effective, just somewhat less so. It's not like they're auto-passing or getting those saves for free. Nor is it likely that they'll have the full breadth of attack ability that the IG and SM contain. It's sounding like a defensive Rock army.

I hadn't done the math, and assuming your correct, you don't find those numbers to be significant? I find them game breaking. Even if they are a defensive army. It's hard to neuter the offensive capabilities of an army that doesn't die.

It's a significant buff,but it's certainly not game breaking. Have you ever seen a straight GK army out of the DH 'dex? My 1500 point army was a Grand Master w/a 7-man GK Terminator retinue in a LRC,2 10-man GK squads,and a Dreadnaught. That's 30 models in a 1500 point army. For 2k games,I'd break out a standard LR with a 5-man GK Termie squad on top of my 1500 list,so 36 models in a 2000 point list. I've never even broken my GK out since 5th hit,because I know people will just anhillate my two squads of vastly overpriced Troops and ignore the Termies,leaving me unable to claim objectives. In 5th,their survivability has to increase to make them viable.

Woah Grey Knights rerolling armor saves... o.O

Rerolling armor saves won't mean jack when AP3 or lower large blasts a plenty, (battle cannons, vindicators, etc.) will wipe an entire unit off the board just like any other marine.

I'm really surprised no one is even speculating about the possibility of the shrouding being 2d6x3 instead of the current 3d6. I feel like a lot of people will be complaining about that just as much as if they get to reroll saves.

I dunno about you, but I'd be glad to sit 48" away and pop light armor with a Terminator CML and never get touched.

bforber wrote:Rerolling armor saves won't mean jack when AP3 or lower large blasts a plenty, (battle cannons, vindicators, etc.) will wipe an entire unit off the board just like any other marine.

I'm really surprised no one is even speculating about the possibility of the shrouding being 2d6x3 instead of the current 3d6. I feel like a lot of people will be complaining about that just as much as if they get to reroll saves.

I dunno about you, but I'd be glad to sit 48" away and pop light armor with a Terminator CML and never get touched.

I agree.

I really think they need to justify making GK as expensive and elitist as they have been in the past. With the uprising of MSU armies, cheap transports/mech spam, GK really need an overhaul to even compete remotely. I'd really hate to spend 250+ points for a 10 man squad only to be able to be taken out by battlecannons super easily every game. Maybe giving all the units the ability to take a "mini" librarian that can cast things like teleport in place of a sergeant? That would be kind of neat (and fit into how GK love to teleport around and facepwn things)

I'd really love to see them flush out the psycher-heavyness of GK. I love the old models and everything; I'd love to build an army of GK. But cost/unviability of the army holds me back atm lol.