NFW losing their S6 status? I really, really hope that this is a horribly off centre rumour that proves to be false.

Why give a normal PAGK a force weapon but lose the S6? I'd much rather they were just power weapons but kept the S6 and let GKT and above have them as force weapons. Surely the S6 the THE big selling point here? Well, that and the fact they could be a power weapon but I don't see the advantage of giving normal troops a Force weapon when mostly PAGK are likely to be going toe to toe with regular troops who usually only have 1 wound anyway. The 'Force' part would be largely redundant in that case but the S6 would most definitely not be redundant. Ever.

Also, the idea of GK being an extremely elite army is really great but rather than the rending options, I would prefer it if PAGK could use psycannons to pin instead - maybe with a small blast marker? That would really help against horde armies.

And, finally, glad to see death cultists are still gonna be in there. I've not considered them before as the points could have been spent on more PAGK but with a new role for them, hopefully they could be part of a melee HQ? The only thing is using their infiltrate rule - if they are part of a retinue/squad with models that can't infiltrate then that rule would be wasted. Perhaps the rumours of them only being part of a retinue are slightly off kilter?

ColdSadHungry wrote:NFW losing their S6 status? I really, really hope that this is a horribly off centre rumour that proves to be false.

Why give a normal PAGK a force weapon but lose the S6? I'd much rather they were just power weapons but kept the S6 and let GKT and above have them as force weapons. Surely the S6 the THE big selling point here? Well, that and the fact they could be a power weapon but I don't see the advantage of giving normal troops a Force weapon when mostly PAGK are likely to be going toe to toe with regular troops who usually only have 1 wound anyway. The 'Force' part would be largely redundant in that case but the S6 would most definitely not be redundant. Ever.

lol, actually it's even worse. the grey knights are the best daemon hunters the imperium has per the fluff (hell, their current codex is even called just that...daemonhunters!). making all of the NFW force weapons doesn't help them much in that role seeing as how the daemon codex has a rule that their units IGNORE instant death. the s6 was the only thing that was helping the GK against them. unless they've got a special army wide rule that allows them to bypass those restrictions, they simply become the best tyrannid hunters in the galaxy instead.

aka_mythos wrote:the Grey Knights version being called the "Penitent Engine-X" and the SoB one being called "Penitent Engine-Y."

I think you mean the Grey Knights version would be Penitent Engine-Y and the SoB one would be called Penitent Engine-X

warboss wrote:lol, actually it's even worse. the grey knights are the best daemon hunters the imperium has per the fluff (hell, their current codex is even called just that...daemonhunters!). making all of the NFW force weapons doesn't help them much in that role seeing as how the daemon codex has a rule that their units IGNORE instant death. the s6 was the only thing that was helping the GK against them. unless they've got a special army wide rule that allows them to bypass those restrictions, they simply become the best tyrannid hunters in the galaxy instead.

They may be unbalanced now against daemons, but daemons will be redone as well at some point, 4E was the edition-of-eternal-warrior anyway.

I also hope that GK can be the few and the proud, however the 6str being removed isn't the end of the world, word is on the street that you can get the bonus str or rending for either the bolter or NFW for the squad.

It seems the idea /might/ be that GK's are about the same cost as they are now, but if you stack on all the upgrades in the universe on them you can get the "20 man in 2k points" army we all dream of using

this fits in with the conflicting rumors (yes str, no str, yes IST no ist)

I'm not into the idea of a GK penitent engine myself. Surely, the driver of the penitent engine is paying a pennance for some wrong doing?

IDK much about the witch hunters fluff but the penitent engine, flagellants, sisters repentia etc show me that they they are all into punishments for lack of faith, or proving faith.

With the GK, there is no repentance. If you're not 'pure' you die, it's as simple as that. I'm betting that these GK penitent engine rumours are based on a walker of some kind but it's not a penitent engine. ( no comments on GW ignoring fluff necessary - I'm aware of that but Grey Knights and pennance do not go hand in hand imo).

The Penitent Engine is a punishment. They are strapped to it, pumped up with tons of drugs that effect their mental and biological state (making the victim live longer and forcing them to feel a need for redemption), and the machine is led to charge against the penitent's forcer allies. He/She doesn't die as his/her body is torn to shreds by gunfire, not until they are obliterated, and the penitent engine doesn't stop killing until it is rendered inoperable or the priest controlling it tells it to stop.

Arco-flagellation is a similar punishment, just of a different nature (limbs replaced with power flails, minds hard-wired to some activation switch which causes them to go into a rampage, etc, but obviously they aren't strapped to a vehicle).

I think you're looking into it too literally, it is quite likely just a name used to describe a walker. Proof is in the pictures. Of which there are none...

Yes, now, my idea for an Impertinent Engine is that whatever you do to it, it just comes back with some mostly irrelevant claptrap impugning your authority and skill until your blood boils and your head explodes.

This would be represented by a forced Ld test.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, now, my idea for an Impertinent Engine is that whatever you do to it, it just comes back with some mostly irrelevant claptrap impugning your authority and skill until your blood boils and your head explodes.

This would be represented by a forced Ld test.

or to be less stupid, it's just a GK dreadnaught piloted by a living pilot that looks similar to a penitent engine and people are needlessly complaining.

If you got rid of all fo the needless complaining the News and Rumors forum would be dead.

Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, now, my idea for an Impertinent Engine is that whatever you do to it, it just comes back with some mostly irrelevant claptrap impugning your authority and skill until your blood boils and your head explodes.

This would be represented by a forced Ld test.

Holy crap - that sounds like what happens when you become a Mod!!!

I think someone just got the name wrong - as Melissia has already pointed out, that name is already associated with a punishment machine...

It is a punishment machine for punishing the enemies of the Emporer.

Kilkrazy wrote:It is a punishment machine for punishing the enemies of the Emporer.

By strapping the enemies to the machine and sending them at their former friends, yes.

puma713 wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:the Grey Knights version being called the "Penitent Engine-X" and the SoB one being called "Penitent Engine-Y."

I think you mean the Grey Knights version would be Penitent Engine-Y and the SoB one would be called Penitent Engine-X

Har-har-har...

ColdSadHungry wrote:Why give a normal PAGK a force weapon but lose the S6? I'd much rather they were just power weapons but kept the S6 and let GKT and above have them as force weapons. Surely the S6 the THE big selling point here? Well, that and the fact they could be a power weapon but I don't see the advantage of giving normal troops a Force weapon when mostly PAGK are likely to be going toe to toe with regular troops who usually only have 1 wound anyway. The 'Force' part would be largely redundant in that case but the S6 would most definitely not be redundant. Ever.

We haven't seen the rest of the rules. In the context of the rest of the rules S6 maybe the redundancy thats been chopped for that reason. They are suppose to have a number of group psyker powers and it very well could be something that is no longer a given, but something that is a power.

Doing it in that hypothetical way would allows the unit to get more bang for their buck. Where they get a list of powers either paying for what they choose (if its point buy) or paying only for the most powerful (if they get multiple in a fixed list). In the old list you payed for S6 whether you were assaulting every turn or not. Now you might get comparable advantages for when you aren't assaulting.

Just Dave wrote:I think you're looking into it too literally, it is quite likely just a name used to describe a walker. Proof is in the pictures. Of which there are none...

Id say THIS. The use of the name makes me think its likely a walker similar in arrangement to the PE, as in the driver is outside ( or "wears" it) not in it...think kinda like the Power Loader that Ripley wears in Aliens. Something lighter and faster than a dreadnaught. Much lighter armored, the pilots armor suit (PA or T is the ??) protects him not the walkers.


Overall i think GW has the potential to drop the biggest load of awesome they ever have with the GKs...it just remains to be seen if they actually do or not...

If the release is March-May then Id expect teasers to hit anytime after the beginning of Feb.

Melissia wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It is a punishment machine for punishing the enemies of the Emporer.

By strapping the enemies to the machine and sending them at their former friends, yes.

My one also punishes the friends of the Emporer for not being angry enough., thus their morale is boosted.

aka_mythos wrote:We haven't seen the rest of the rules. In the context of the rest of the rules S6 maybe the redundancy thats been chopped for that reason. They are suppose to have a number of group psyker powers and it very well could be something that is no longer a given, but something that is a power.

Doing it in that hypothetical way would allows the unit to get more bang for their buck. Where they get a list of powers either paying for what they choose (if its point buy) or paying only for the most powerful (if they get multiple in a fixed list). In the old list you payed for S6 whether you were assaulting every turn or not. Now you might get comparable advantages for when you aren't assaulting.

More useless dice rolling, and a psychic hood shouldn't be able to cripple a daemonhunters army in close combat. Taking Nemesis Force Weapons as literally psychic powers is just painful regardless of how many instant death effects you may have. The ability to kill multiple wound units across the army isn't that good when you consider a large proportion of the enemy is only single wound, so they're just power weapons. I would rather have simple power weapons than having to roll dice every time the GK entered combat.

And with GK there should be no real 'discount' version. As an elite army their edge was always the S6 weapons regardless, and it would be disappoint to see them redone, even in plastics, if they were now an army which required me to test every squad in combat every turn to simply turn them into the traditional GK (S6).

Ehsteve wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:We haven't seen the rest of the rules. In the context of the rest of the rules S6 maybe the redundancy thats been chopped for that reason. They are suppose to have a number of group psyker powers and it very well could be something that is no longer a given, but something that is a power.

Doing it in that hypothetical way would allows the unit to get more bang for their buck. Where they get a list of powers either paying for what they choose (if its point buy) or paying only for the most powerful (if they get multiple in a fixed list). In the old list you payed for S6 whether you were assaulting every turn or not. Now you might get comparable advantages for when you aren't assaulting.

More useless dice rolling, and a psychic hood shouldn't be able to cripple a daemonhunters army in close combat. Taking Nemesis Force Weapons as literally psychic powers is just painful regardless of how many instant death effects you may have. The ability to kill multiple wound units across the army isn't that good when you consider a large proportion of the enemy is only single wound, so they're just power weapons. I would rather have simple power weapons than having to roll dice every time the GK entered combat.

And with GK there should be no real 'discount' version. As an elite army their edge was always the S6 weapons regardless, and it would be disappoint to see them redone, even in plastics, if they were now an army which required me to test every squad in combat every turn to simply turn them into the traditional GK (S6).

My thinking exactly.

Also, as things are, GK need to keep their enemies at range for as long as possible until their numbers are low enough to make the S6 advantage count. Making NFW weaker simply means you'll have to keep the enemy at range for even longer and then when you do end up in CC, there's more left to chance than there is now.

I agree that we don't know what the new rules are and losing S6 may turn out to mean nothing but, just for the intimidation factor alone, multiple S6 attacks would make anyone think twice before charging headlong into close combat. Odd rules, wargear, more dice rolling simply makes it more time consuming and gives the opponent more belief because there is more chance involved.

ColdSadHungry wrote:
I agree that we don't know what the new rules are and losing S6 may turn out to mean nothing but, just for the intimidation factor alone, multiple S6 attacks would make anyone think twice before charging headlong into close combat. Odd rules, wargear, more dice rolling simply makes it more time consuming and gives the opponent more belief because there is more chance involved.

Yeah, and a hail of 20+ power weapon strikes won't.

ColdSadHungry wrote:Also, as things are, GK need to keep their enemies at range for as long as possible until their numbers are low enough to make the S6 advantage count. Making NFW weaker simply means you'll have to keep the enemy at range for even longer and then when you do end up in CC, there's more left to chance than there is now.

Well the rules seem to indicate that every GK Shooting weapon either has or can get Rending (the true sign of lazy idea-less uninspired rules writing), so keeping the enemy at range a bit longer mightn't be the hardest thing in the world do to. In fact, it may end up being preferable over HTH.

Have we heard any mention of a change to GK stats? Are they going to duck down to WS4? 'Cause that'd be mean...

Grundz wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:
I agree that we don't know what the new rules are and losing S6 may turn out to mean nothing but, just for the intimidation factor alone, multiple S6 attacks would make anyone think twice before charging headlong into close combat. Odd rules, wargear, more dice rolling simply makes it more time consuming and gives the opponent more belief because there is more chance involved.

Yeah, and a hail of 20+ power weapon strikes won't.

Not if they're Orks, they rarely get their 6+ save anyway.

Grundz wrote:

ColdSadHungry wrote:
I agree that we don't know what the new rules are and losing S6 may turn out to mean nothing but, just for the intimidation factor alone, multiple S6 attacks would make anyone think twice before charging headlong into close combat. Odd rules, wargear, more dice rolling simply makes it more time consuming and gives the opponent more belief because there is more chance involved.

Yeah, and a hail of 20+ power weapon strikes won't.

A reminder that Daemonhunters were also good because they were wounding most daemons on 2+ and there was no daemon they could not wound because they were S6 (as nothing could possibly have a toughness double their strength), and power weapons do diddly squat against their invulnerable saves.

If a regular unbuffed daemonhunter is wounding regular daemons on a 4+, then why not take bland, vanilla tactical marines against them? You'd save yourself a lot of points. Your only advantage then is shooting which defeats the purpose of Nemesis Force Weapons. They would no longer be a daemon killing force, just a bunch of assault marines sans the jump pack.

It's been said a couple of times already - we don't know the rules, so really we can't say much. We can infer conclusions from what we do know though, and then use historic examples from other Codices to guess as to what the rules might be in the end.

And that's what has me worried.

5th Ed is a mess of special rules and exceptions to exeptions. The whole concept of 'Universal Special Rules' in 5th is a joke, since so many things do something that's like a USR, but is slightly different. Each Codes adds more rules to the mix, and the pit gets deeper and deeper.

So let's look at that in the context of all GK's having actual Force Weapons. Ok, the S6 across the board was a simple thing to remember, and like Eh Steve says, meant that wounding things was simple - they wounded pretty much everything on a 2+, including most Daemons. Now, assuming what we've read is correct and assuming we take it at face value (they have Force Weapons, and the Strength of Force Weapons is As User), this meakes GK's S4 across the board, and suddenly they have trouble wounding the very things they're meant to fight.

And here lies the problem. They'll get some sort of exception. "Nemesis Force Weapons act as standard Force Weapons except against Daemons, who are always wounded on a 2+" or something like that. It's creating a rule that doesn't need to exist, an exception to a standard rule where just having them at S6 solved the problem without need for additional rules and exceptions to exceptions.

So this is what I'm afraid of, that we'll take simple rules that work and replace them with a few overlapping special rules to achieve the same effect. It's unnecessary.

Ehsteve wrote:
If a regular unbuffed daemonhunter is wounding regular daemons on a 4+, then why not take bland, vanilla tactical marines against them? You'd save yourself a lot of points. Your only advantage then is shooting which defeats the purpose of Nemesis Force Weapons. They would no longer be a daemon killing force, just a bunch of assault marines sans the jump pack.

My thought would be, that warhammer armies shouldn't be rock paper sizzors, if you are playing DH, you shouldn't be horrendously overpowered against daemons and bad against everything else like they are now. I understand the fluff logic, but having an army that is basically unplayable because it is designed to beat up another, also underpowered army is dumb.

You don't take bland, vanilla, tactical marines, because DH can't, it's a different army, your arguement is irrelevent. Why take guardsmen, marines are better! why take blood claws when you can take khorne bezerkers!... wat?

Not to mention, that it's been said that you can /buy/ the str upgrade for NFW

Grundz wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:
If a regular unbuffed daemonhunter is wounding regular daemons on a 4+, then why not take bland, vanilla tactical marines against them? You'd save yourself a lot of points. Your only advantage then is shooting which defeats the purpose of Nemesis Force Weapons. They would no longer be a daemon killing force, just a bunch of assault marines sans the jump pack.

My thought would be, that warhammer armies shouldn't be rock paper sizzors, if you are playing DH, you shouldn't be horrendously overpowered against daemons and bad against everything else like they are now. I understand the fluff logic, but having an army that is basically unplayable because it is designed to beat up another, also underpowered army is dumb.

You don't take bland, vanilla, tactical marines, because DH can't, it's a different army, your arguement is irrelevent. Why take guardsmen, marines are better! why take blood claws when you can take khorne bezerkers!... wat?

Not to mention, that it's been said that you can /buy/ the str upgrade for NFW

What I was trying to say was: your basic troops are as effective against daemons as any other army. This goes against the fluff of the DH army. You'd be better off with a bland SM army and save yourself some points. The S6 was both easier to remember and implement then having to cast psychic powers each turn, or having to assign each squad different Strenght values.

Psychic powers should not be the be all and end all of GKs.

Grundz wrote:My thought would be, that warhammer armies shouldn't be rock paper sizzors, if you are playing DH, you shouldn't be horrendously overpowered against daemons and bad against everything else like they are now. I understand the fluff logic, but having an army that is basically unplayable because it is designed to beat up another, also underpowered army is dumb.

And keeping them at S6 rather than S4 but wounding Daemons easier would solve that - S6 against everything is equal. That's why the NFW rules work right now. And Daemonhunters aren't "horrendously overpowered" against Daemons. Not by a long shot.

Mad4Minis wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I think you're looking into it too literally, it is quite likely just a name used to describe a walker. Proof is in the pictures. Of which there are none...

Id say THIS. The use of the name makes me think its likely a walker similar in arrangement to the PE, as in the driver is outside ( or "wears" it) not in it...think kinda like the Power Loader that Ripley wears in Aliens. Something lighter and faster than a dreadnaught. Much lighter armored, the pilots armor suit (PA or T is the ??) protects him not the walkers.

Maybe it would count as a monstrous creature instead of a vehicle?

Grundz wrote:
Not to mention, that it's been said that you can /buy/ the str upgrade for NFW

It would be nice to see a long list of possible upgrades to apply to the units, like with IG stormtroopers, or flash gitz.

I don't think comparing GK's to two units nobody uses is really the best idea...

H.B.M.C. wrote:And Daemonhunters aren't "horrendously overpowered" against Daemons. Not by a long shot.

Really? can you send me a copy of the new codex so I can see?

Grundz wrote:Really? can you send me a copy of the new codex so I can see?

Don't be an ass.

I was talking about the existing Codex. If you weren't, make your posts clearer and don't include things like "like they are now" which tends to imply that you were talking about the current book as well.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I don't think comparing GK's to two units nobody uses is really the best idea...

yeah, oh well
it's just an example

Tempers people, tempers!

Alpharius wrote:Tempers people, tempers!

Agreed.

The rules are the most variable thing involved, so little point in getting worked up until theres something a little more solid.

I think people are viewing the loss of S6 (as we know it, though) too one-dimensionally. Giving Grey Knights power weapons base increases their tactical flexibility against a plethora of armies now. The fact that they might also be Force Weapons makes them very threatening to Death Star units like Thunderwolves, Nobs, Farsight Bombs, and so on. One of the big complaints about the current Grey Knight rules is that they 'excel' against Daemons but aren't built to fight stuff beside that. This is a step, I feel, in the right direction.

Let's wait for the full codex before we worry about Grey Knights not being able to handle Daemons.

But doesn't S6 make them more capable of fighitng everything, given that most things in the game are T4 or lower?

Yes, it does.

You're making a lot of sense to me.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But doesn't S6 make them more capable of fighitng everything, given that most things in the game are T4 or lower?

S6 is great against vehicles and shooting, but they need to be able to cut through armor. The Justicar may still have access to a S6 version, or a Daemonhammer, or something else we aren't aware of yet because we're just going by scraps here.

Get ready for the nerf bat if you play anything but space wolves.

bhsman wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:But doesn't S6 make them more capable of fighitng everything, given that most things in the game are T4 or lower?

S6 is great against vehicles and shooting, but they need to be able to cut through armor.

Their primary target doesn't wear armour. Taking away a weapon that helps against daemons (and everything else) and replacing it with a weapon that doesn't help against most daemons is stupid.

Which is why they will likely get special rules to help them fight Daemons.

And this, as I said above, is my problem. They don't need special rules to fight Daemons - they wound everything on 2+ with S6, so everything is affected equally. Giving them S4 weapons yet giving them special rules against Daemons will just add more unnecessary special rules to an already cluttered game.

We already have something like that - Space Wolf Runic Weapons wound Daemons on a 2+. I see this as the future of Grey Knights. Another special rule to help them with Daemons where they didn't need to be one because S6 covered that already without hampering their abilities against other armies. Simply being S4 weapons with the 'Runic Weapon' special rule makes them even more specialised and even more worse off than they already are (assuming no other upgrades, of course).

Sorry HBMC.. but what? Daemonhunters are specifically SUPPOSED to be good at fighting daemons. Like, explicitly so.

If they didn't have special abilities vs daemons I would be extremely disappointed. A power weapon with 2+ to wound daemons is perfect.

Your hatred for this concept is total nonsense.

ph34r wrote:Sorry HBMC.. but what? Daemonhunters are specifically SUPPOSED to be good at fighting daemons. Like, explicitly so.

He's saying that making the Daemonhunters inherently good at fighting daemons is better than resorting to kludges.

Making DH inherently good at fighting daemons, like the old book, makes them inherently good at fighting everything.

ph34r wrote:Sorry HBMC.. but what? Daemonhunters are specifically SUPPOSED to be good at fighting daemons. Like, explicitly so.

I know that. And they are. But they don't need to be hamstrung against other opponents because of this. Removing the S6 kinda does that.

ph34r wrote:A power weapon with 2+ to wound daemons is perfect.

But they already have ('cept the regular GK's, who don't have power weapons, but still wound virtually every type of Daemon on a 2+).

ph34r wrote:Your hatred for this concept is total nonsense.

My point, as I have stated several times (but maybe not clearly enough) is that GK's can already do these things and don't need a special rule.

Put it this way:

1. You have GK's with S6.
2. You have GK's with S4, but a special rule that wounds Daemons on a 2+.

What's the net effect here in BOTH situations? GK's wound Daemons on a 2+. The difference is the former is just done via the strength of their weapons, and the latter is done via more special rules. We don't need more special rules, especially when you don't need to add special rules to have GK's achieve what they can already achieve with their base weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ph34r wrote:Making DH inherently good at fighting daemons, like the old book, makes them inherently good at fighting everything.

It made them inherently good at fighting Eldar, really, but I wouldn't go so far as to call GK's "good" at fighting "everything". They, on a 1-to-1 basis are excellent troops, but their inherent anti-Daemon abilities haven't suddenly turned them into an anti-everything army. Not by a long shot.

So when you think about it that way, the net change is:
vs daemons, better vs greater daemons
vs everything else, better vs elite troops and worse vs orks

One way is a special rule
The other is a USR and a special rule

How is that a problem?

Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

I dont get the whine about possibly losing S6 in favour of S4 Force weapons?

Sure you wound easier with S6 but all you have to do is 1 single wound and you kill anything you hit if you make the psychic test which most likely be on a 10.

Id rather you have S6 vs my T7 6wound creature than S4 Force weapons.

Yiawchuah wrote:2 wound terminator.

Yiawchuah wrote:FNP

Yiawchuah wrote:troop choices.

We still don't know the cost of such bad-asses nor whether they can withstand instant death, lets not whip out the Cheddar just yet...

Interesting, so how have these rumours been known to be reliable?

So that's how 20 models can be competitive at 2,000 points. Its nice to see GW finally start to use some of the wonderful ideas from Codex: Angry Marines!. AnGrey Knights Terminators with Powerfeet for the win!

I read on BOLS that the speculation for release is around March 2011. I cant say how credible the source is though

ph34r wrote:

Yiawchuah wrote:2 wound terminator.

Yiawchuah wrote:FNP

Yiawchuah wrote:troop choices.

Er... we already have something like this - Lone Wolves in Terminator Armour?

And we know that Lone Wolves have Eternal Warrior - not sure about GKT. To be fair, the wound allocation rules would be a significant bonus in of itself...

That and the ability to deep-strike, NFW's and squads.

As I said earlier though, we have no real idea of points costs so there's no point whining just yet.
20 at 2000pts suggests about 90pts each which is VERY expensive per model.

I think for what it is worth that GK's worked best when they were an extra unit to be bought with an army. There main focus has always been fighting Chaos and Daemons in particular. It is hard to make them a feasible army to take on the mulittude of races when their wargear and sturcture is built for particular enemies.

And since this is a rumor thread...It was my understanding that the Str 6 nemesis force weapons were staying with the Terminators. Power armor was going to be standard strength 4.

I think any army that has troops with two wounds has a lot going for it.

Just Dave wrote:That and the ability to deep-strike, NFW's and squads.

As I said earlier though, we have no real idea of points costs so there's no point whining just yet.
20 at 2000pts suggests about 90pts each which is VERY expensive per model.

my guess is that the 90pt terminators are terminators with every upgrade possible crammed into them.

so if all the rumors were true, we're talking rerollable armor/invul saves, FNP, and 2 wounds each, with possibly S6 force weapons and a 12" holocaust nuke to make sure they dont get tarpitted.

Yiawchuah wrote:Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

that would be cool. cool enough to make me want to field my deathwing as counts as GKT!

Yiawchuah wrote:Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

Wow! It's like an Orc Nob mob with a doc, only with much better armor, better weapons, better leadership, and can deep strike.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Put it this way:

1. You have GK's with S6.
2. You have GK's with S4, but a special rule that wounds Daemons on a 2+.

What's the net effect here in BOTH situations? GK's wound Daemons on a 2+. The difference is the former is just done via the strength of their weapons, and the latter is done via more special rules. We don't need more special rules, especially when you don't need to add special rules to have GK's achieve what they can already achieve with their base weapons.

I follow and agree what you're saying here, HBMC. As expensive as these puppies are likely to be, I'd want the hit on +2 to be against EVERYTHING, too. Not just the Daemons.

Wayfarer wrote:I think any army that has troops with two wounds has a lot going for it.

Arg!

ph34r wrote:So when you think about it that way, the net change is:
vs daemons, better vs greater daemons
vs everything else, better vs elite troops and worse vs orks

One way is a special rule
The other is a USR and a special rule

How is that a problem?

The problem is balancing it.

It's not fair to GK players to pay a stupid premium to be better at fighting one type of enemy that in all likelihood they will hardly ever fight against in actual play. The three points per model (or whatever) built into the point cost for eliteness versus Daemons is not doing them any good against mech IG.

Similarly it's not fair to Daemons players to run against a GK list balanced against general codices but that gets to be totally UBER against their specific army.

A universal buff is universal. +2 Str has value against vehicles, Tau, Daemon Princes, and Terminators. It's an easily quantifiable bonus.

A target-specific special ability is not universal and does not have value against the majority of opponents. It either is horrible or it's incredible; too cheap or too expensive.

That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

sourclams wrote:
That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

Didn't I just say this? XD

If you did, it was a good idea, and bears repeating.

Grundz wrote:

sourclams wrote:
That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

Didn't I just say this? XD

sourclams wrote:If you did, it was a good idea, and bears repeating.

I love the Christmas Season!

Two wound terminators? With Wargear / Weapons options? And Pyschic Powers?

It's like Mega Armor Nobz mobz - with access to Storm Shields and Land Raiders instead of Waagh! and Battle Wagons ...

Well, it looks like GW found a new way to help bolster Land Raider sales again. I just love 1 round games that come down to a binary question of "Did you kill enough of my Land Raiders with your first Shooting Phase?" - don't you?

- Marty Lund

okay- so basically the TAGK will:
be troops
have 2 wounds
have NFWs
2+ armour re-rolling
3+ invul with SS
ouch. I doubt half of this is real (too much to hope for), but if it is- how many points will they be?! they're basically brother-captains that re-roll armour for feth's sake!

I'd estimate them to be around 90pts each judging by apparently having 20 at 2000pts and the need for a special HQ.*

*Pinch of salt required. not supplied.

shrike wrote:okay- so basically the TAGK will:
be troops
have 2 wounds
have NFWs
2+ armour re-rolling
3+ invul with SS
ouch. I doubt half of this is real (too much to hope for), but if it is- how many points will they be?! they're basically brother-captains that re-roll armour for feth's sake!

I thought it sounded as if their were normal terminators as troops and these spiffy 2 wound dudes as elites (perhaps with a SC to make them troops).

As to cost, keep in mind in nearly every circumstance two one wound models are better then 1 two wound model, even with a re-roll. And the re-roll is one of the few things that might allow these guys to fight hordes with some hope of success.

Jack

Yiawchuah wrote:Latest Blood of Kittens Grey Knight leak is out:

"Grey Knights will be see the return of the 2 wound terminator. These new elite terminators will have 2 wounds and FNP and access to all the upgrades and options of all GKT in the codex. To make things more interesting one special character can make these terminators troop choices. What remains to be seen is if they will get Eternal Warrior…"

Is it just me or does it sound like this is going to be a different unit distinct from the normal GKTs? Maybe I'm just slow on picking that up. The wording there reminds me loads of Sanguinary Guard being unlocked by Dante, and how they're more "elite" (at least fluff/perception-wise) than regular assault troops or even vets. But that there'll be other options for GKTs in the dex.

If anyone bothers taking them when unstoppable supernators are waltzing around everywhere.


Who knows, maybe they'll get WBB too

Ooh, they can call it "And they shall know no death"

In the rules we use all Terminators, no matter who they belong to, are T4(5) W2 Sv2+/5+(I). At 45 points each they are a wonderful unit that balances out durability vs cost vs rarity (Termies are 0-1 per 1000 points in our rules). Do I don't really have a problem with 2 Wound Termies because all Termies should have 2 wounds.

Of course, we don't give them FNP or 3+(I) Storm Shields... so that might have something to do with it.

Am I the only one wondering about this but does it seem like GW is handing every army tons of FNP and poisoned weapons now? It was cool at first but now it starts to become a little ridiculous if everyone can get nearly full FNP. Nids, BAs, DE, GK, and we can rest assured Necrons are all FNPed. Is there some divine plan at work here or what will it actually lead to? Is it to slowly make AP1/2 ranged weapons and powered close combat weapons stronger in comparison to 'mundane weapons' than they have been for a while now? Orks are riding the old 'no FNP' train but I'm sure they'll get somekind of an FNP aura when they get updated, just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

You're not the only one, the over-use of USR's, particularly FNP is commonly griped about and IMHO, rightly so.

Remember that a Painboy can technically still provide it for Orks also...

Therion wrote:Am I the only one wondering about this but does it seem like GW is handing every army tons of FNP and poisoned weapons now? It was cool at first but now it starts to become a little ridiculous if everyone can get nearly full FNP. Nids, BAs, DE, GK, and we can rest assured Necrons are all FNPed. Is there some divine plan at work here or what will it actually lead to? Is it to slowly make AP1/2 ranged weapons and powered close combat weapons stronger in comparison to 'mundane weapons' than they have been for a while now? Orks are riding the old 'no FNP' train but I'm sure they'll get somekind of an FNP aura when they get updated, just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

Its the overload of special rules that defines 5th edition. As its been pointed out the same effect can be had with adjusting base stats. However, people have been stat bragging since miniature games were invented, so now GW is using a ton of special rules instead. So...where you used to have the gamers sitting around "my ___ has str_", "well my ____ has str_ and toughness___"...and so on. Now its "I have ____ special rule", "well I have ____ rule that defeats your rule"...and so on.


Its essentially a new way to do the same old thing, but they went way overboard on it. Its a downward spiral...once you load one army with special rules, you have to give some to the rest or it will piss off players (aka customers).

Its bad enough hat I really dont want to play 5th ed. IMO they just need to stop, admit they binned it, and move on to 6th ed. However, they still have a ton of money to make on updating the rest of the armies, so that wont happen until every one has been updated to 5th and all the $$$ possible has been wrung out of it.

Then the cycle begins again with a new version.

Wasn't that bloody kittens website promising a super update today? Anyone got it?

It's the two-wound terminators returning that can be taken as troops with the addition of a special character, look at the previous page...

Just Dave wrote:

It's the two-wound terminators returning that can be taken as troops with the addition of a special character, look at the previous page...

Whops, thats it, sorry! I just checked it today, as its friday, so sorry about that, carry on with your normal thread.

Don't worry man, its OK. although for me at-least it's now Saturday...

I'm a member and I cant find it on thier site.

The naviagtion is convoluted to say the least.

wolfshadow wrote:I'm a member and I cant find it on thier site.

It's in white text at the bottom of their list of rumours.

If true...

...I welcome our new Feel No Pain overlords.

Therion wrote:Am I the only one wondering about this but does it seem like GW is handing every army tons of FNP and poisoned weapons now? It was cool at first but now it starts to become a little ridiculous if everyone can get nearly full FNP. Nids, BAs, DE, GK, and we can rest assured Necrons are all FNPed. Is there some divine plan at work here or what will it actually lead to? Is it to slowly make AP1/2 ranged weapons and powered close combat weapons stronger in comparison to 'mundane weapons' than they have been for a while now? Orks are riding the old 'no FNP' train but I'm sure they'll get somekind of an FNP aura when they get updated, just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

I agree that it's overused, but in the case of the necrons, FNP is much simpler to deal with then some funky WBB rule (which is basically FNP, just called something else)

So in the future people wont bring units to defeat MEQ, they will bring units to defeat FNP :-/

okay then- TAGK will be:
troops
T4(5)
Sv 2+/3++ (SS)
NFW
SB
W2
re-rolling armour
FNP?!

I agree with re-rolling armour- PAGK are better than PASM, so TAGK should be better than TASM.
NFW/SB is okay.
T5- ooh. on the edge of OTT.
W2- TAGK are the GK's backbone. They should be that good, though GW should either pick re-rolling OR 2 wounds.
troops- ooh. elites? yes. I think if you take, say, a GKGM then he unlocks it.

I think I was the only one who mentioned T4(5), and that was our own rules, so unless I missed it in someone else's post disregard that part (if you keep repeating it Taco Bell will report it as news in a few days, and we don't want that).

ah. oh well.

To be honest, I'm not even that worried about these new TAGKs. My 5 man death company with Lemartes will eat them alive (and that's assuming they have different weapons for wound allocation like Nobs)-Unless of course they are I5 with counter charge or something added on. Then I just quit. Hearing how the new Grey Knights will work, I have no fear with my BA: I think the BA can still give them a serious run for their money. However, it will be time to put my Fateweaver Daemon army back on the shelves for 6-8 years

sourclams wrote:

ph34r wrote:So when you think about it that way, the net change is:
vs daemons, better vs greater daemons
vs everything else, better vs elite troops and worse vs orks

One way is a special rule
The other is a USR and a special rule

How is that a problem?

The problem is balancing it.

It's not fair to GK players to pay a stupid premium to be better at fighting one type of enemy that in all likelihood they will hardly ever fight against in actual play. The three points per model (or whatever) built into the point cost for eliteness versus Daemons is not doing them any good against mech IG.

Similarly it's not fair to Daemons players to run against a GK list balanced against general codices but that gets to be totally UBER against their specific army.

A universal buff is universal. +2 Str has value against vehicles, Tau, Daemon Princes, and Terminators. It's an easily quantifiable bonus.

A target-specific special ability is not universal and does not have value against the majority of opponents. It either is horrible or it's incredible; too cheap or too expensive.

That's why it's a bad idea. If the Daemon Codex didn't exist, then I'd have a lot less opposition to the idea. The Daemon codex does exist, though, and players should not get dicked just because GW decides that you get to be Paper and they get to be Rock every lousy time.

Until GW releases this thing, I can't judge definitively. In general I think GW should have handled it differently. Grey Knights playing against daemons should have just been a special set of rules specific to that instance. Those rules shouldn't be "uber pawnage" but something balanced, such as GK having preferred enemy and cause instability, but where the daemons gain something like Furious Charge, only in games against each other. That's just an example, but its about reshaping the dynamic situationally and not the baseline capabilities.

Therion wrote: just like Berserkers, Plague Marines, Chaos Terminators, etc. All Hail the Mighty FNP.

Just to be clear. Bezerkers(who can not use an Icon of Nurgle) and Chaos Terminators do not get FNP. Adding a Icon of Nurgle only adds +1 to your toughness, see page 25 of C:CSM.
I am going to hold my judgment of these rumors untill we get closer to the release date. Right now they seem like playtest notes to me.

timetowaste85 wrote:To be honest, I'm not even that worried about these new TAGKs. My 5 man death company with Lemartes will eat them alive (and that's assuming they have different weapons for wound allocation like Nobs)-Unless of course they are I5 with counter charge or something added on. Then I just quit. Hearing how the new Grey Knights will work, I have no fear with my BA: I think the BA can still give them a serious run for their money. However, it will be time to put my Fateweaver Daemon army back on the shelves for 6-8 years

This is assuming of course that you don't get kited around by something else and shot to death in the process, (the two rumors about psycannons are s7ap4 or s6ap3 iirc. plus stormbolters) FnP or not, that's an awful lot of potential saves to be making.

I'm curious to know which special character is going to be handing out furious charge like candy, (also becoming a trend in later codexes.)

Kanluwen wrote:
So, even changing the fluff to where the Inquisition has standing armies...what differentiates it from just being Guard "but better"?

The same thing that prevents them from changing fluff to make the SoB Space Marines 'but buxom'. Fanbase Head Explode-y.

Small update: Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the Orc & Goblin army book (Fantasy) for March, putting the GK Codex April earliest.

Kroothawk wrote:Small update: Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the Orc & Goblin army book (Fantasy) for March, putting the GK Codex April earliest.

sdfsjdf;sd;f!

That's what I think of that.

Kroothawk wrote:Small update: Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the Orc & Goblin army book (Fantasy) for March, putting the GK Codex April earliest.

Cool, now I dont have to buy it at all! Thanks GW, you saved me some money!

Kroothawk wrote:Small update: Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the Orc & Goblin army book (Fantasy) for March, putting the GK Codex April earliest.

*Pulls out suicide revolver*... *Shoots DH codex with six .44 rounds*

Bah, here's hoping that the Daemonhunters/Grey Knights codex doesn't become the new Dark Eldar...
Though I can understand where GW is coming from, trying to suck up all of the remaining Christmas money from both WH and WH40k, I do not remember the schedule.

Jan? BA second wave is Feb. March now Orc and Goblins. April GK/Daemonhunters?

bforber wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Small update: Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the Orc & Goblin army book (Fantasy) for March, putting the GK Codex April earliest.

sdfsjdf;sd;f!

That's what I think of that.

Agreed. Feb-March Ill be good to go on $$, but it will go quick. They push it back too far and Ill be broke before they release anything. That will annoy me, as Im looking forward to a couple boxes of the new GK termies.

What month did the Bloody Blood Angels of Blood come out?

H.B.M.C. wrote:What month did the Blood Angels come out?

The Blood Angels codex was released in April.

But Nids were February

I guess they aren't dropping a codex but instead a second wave of BA and DE early in the year.

And Dark Eldar were November. That's a long time between books.

You could save the money?

What were you going to spend it on instead? orcs?

hoping for april. If it's not announced by march, I will go on a BA spending spree. I am impatient. My b-day's end of march. If C:GK comes after april, I'm not in.

Footsloggin wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Small update: Frgt/10 over at Warseer confirmed the Orc & Goblin army book (Fantasy) for March, putting the GK Codex April earliest.

*Pulls out suicide revolver*... *Shoots DH codex with six .44 rounds*

Bah, here's hoping that the Daemonhunters/Grey Knights codex doesn't become the new Dark Eldar...
Though I can understand where GW is coming from, trying to suck up all of the remaining Christmas money from both WH and WH40k, I do not remember the schedule.

Jan? BA second wave is Feb. March now Orc and Goblins. April GK/Daemonhunters?

Jan - Skaven New Models
Feb - Blood Angels New Models
March - Orcs & Goblins Codex & Models (Apparently)
April - Either Dark Eldar New Models or DH/GK/SOB
May - Either Dark Eldar New Models or DH/GK/SOB

There are no SOB's coming with this release.

I wish that persistent (false) rumour would just die.

malfred wrote:You could save the money?

What were you going to spend it on instead? orcs?

I get money in April for a special occasion. Enough that I wont have to use any of the money I have worked for to buy it, only the gift money.

GK are going to be such a freaking pain in the ass, I just know it. Looks like I'll pick up DE to combat them. I sure as hell know my CSM can't handle them.

Begging pardon but you don't know that, and if what's being said about GK is/are true, then your DE could actually be a worse matchup; psycannons shooting your transports to death, night fight keeping you from shooting back, having to close to melee to deal with an entire army of elite close combat specialists...

If anything Chaos are, at least, Marines, and as such shouldn't have any obvious weaknesses unless you rely on a heavy backdrop of summoned daemons.

malfred wrote:You could save the money?

What were you going to spend it on instead? orcs?

Who..me? My answer will be similar to Shrikes...I have a multitude of things I want, and will not have enough $$ to get them all. Unless GW has some enough info/teasers out to hold my interest Ill likely pick up other things, most of which are non GW. Funny thing is all I want are the GKT minis...I really dont care about the book. Unfortunately they wont release anything until the book comes out.

Really too early to get too worked up...all this in months away, and who knows what my purchasing priorities will be at the time.

As far as Orks go...may not ever collect a functioning army for them. At this point they are a great source when I need my fix of converting. They are just a fun race to build and paint.

I seriously hope they dont get delayed.. GW is already dropping the ball on releasing books in a timely manner

As if it wasnt already bad enough they release a new WFB edition then neglect to put out any books for 8 months. 40k goes for 6 months without a single new book then another 5 for GKs?

I think GW had to have planned to put out new books for the oldest armies this year. I would not be surprised to see either crons or SoB (or a stand alone inquisition book if they are not heavily included in DH, and assuming that they want to make a stand alone Inquisition book) out in 2011.

I think they are finally realizing that people still play these old armies, just using the new books they release. Except that if they came out with the new book, they can sell craptons of new models because the original army was so old, the models comparitively suck

I think the old metal GK's are amazing looking models, whether they are annoyingly all metal or not.

Thunderfrog wrote:I think the old metal GK's are amazing looking models, whether they are annoyingly all metal or not.

The GK termies some of GWs best IMO. Im sure everyone is hoping for little actual style changes, just a move from metal to plastic.

malfred wrote:You could save the money?

What were you going to spend it on instead? orcs?

More paint. I'm running low.

Nenya97 wrote: Except that if they came out with the new book, they can sell craptons of new models because the original army was so old, the models comparitively suck

The necron models are great, they just need a new codex.

Mad4Minis wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:I think the old metal GK's are amazing looking models, whether they are annoyingly all metal or not.

The GK termies some of GWs best IMO. Im sure everyone is hoping for little actual style changes, just a move from metal to plastic.

As long as they retain the amazing qualities and detail of the originals, I would be fine switching to plastic, as I find assembly will be much easier, and the paint tends to adhere better to my plastics.

Footsloggin wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:

Thunderfrog wrote:I think the old metal GK's are amazing looking models, whether they are annoyingly all metal or not.

The GK termies some of GWs best IMO. Im sure everyone is hoping for little actual style changes, just a move from metal to plastic.

As long as they retain the amazing qualities and detail of the originals, I would be fine switching to plastic, as I find assembly will be much easier, and the paint tends to adhere better to my plastics.

Plastic is superior for many reasons...lighter, more durable (if you use model glue), of course my fave reason...conversions...plastic is much easier to work with.

The weakness of plastic compared to metal miniature is that all plastic miniatures are projected from two opposing planes, while metal has detail that is more encompassing 3-dimensionally.

But GW's plastic tech is fairly impressive these days, so the detail is still quite good despite the limited casting range. I mean the BA kits were great, so I can imagine these plastic GK's being amazing.

And easily convertible.

H.B.M.C. wrote:But GW's plastic tech is fairly impressive these days, so the detail is still quite good despite the limited casting range. I mean the BA kits were great, so I can imagine these plastic GK's being amazing.

And easily convertible.

Indeed. So the important part for me. I'm not even planning on buying a HQ blister, just converting one of the boxed termies.

i'm just hoping all that detail won't be an excuse to goldsword (or i guess silversword in this case as that's their color too!) the box with a hidden in plain sight terminator squad box price increase. here's to hoping that they cost as much as vanilla termies!

warboss wrote:i'm just hoping all that detail won't be an excuse to goldsword (or i guess silversword in this case as that's their color too!) the box with a hidden in plain sight terminator squad box price increase. here's to hoping that they cost as much as vanilla termies!

I believe the word you're looking for is "platinumsword" pricing. I really wish they wouldn't, as a cheap, easy to store army with great models would be good advertising for the game, but get the feeling GW's going to do it anyway.

AlexHolker wrote:

warboss wrote:i'm just hoping all that detail won't be an excuse to goldsword (or i guess silversword in this case as that's their color too!) the box with a hidden in plain sight terminator squad box price increase. here's to hoping that they cost as much as vanilla termies!

I believe the word you're looking for is "platinumsword" pricing. I really wish they wouldn't, as a cheap, easy to store army with great models would be good advertising for the game, but get the feeling GW's going to do it anyway.

Id say they will be more expensive than the normal Terminators box. They are likely to have more parts/options, and surely more detail. However, the Wolf Guard Term box has tons more parts than the regular boxes, and its the same price. So there may be hope...but I wouldnt be surprised by $55-$60 US for the GKT box. For that price Id probably still get some...since most places sell around 15-20% off online, that still keeps them affordable. If they push them to $70 or more I may just stick to regular Termies for the project Im doing.

My only fear is that we will lose the Halberd from the GK. I mean in plastic if they did keep them, the blades would keep snapping off, and I wouldn't surrender my metal minis for that. With spears in fantasy there is no issue because the head of the spear is small, and doesn't catch on things as easy. Hopefully it isn't just a bunch of bland swords in the end.

Mad4Minis wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

warboss wrote:i'm just hoping all that detail won't be an excuse to goldsword (or i guess silversword in this case as that's their color too!) the box with a hidden in plain sight terminator squad box price increase. here's to hoping that they cost as much as vanilla termies!

I believe the word you're looking for is "platinumsword" pricing. I really wish they wouldn't, as a cheap, easy to store army with great models would be good advertising for the game, but get the feeling GW's going to do it anyway.

Id say they will be more expensive than the normal Terminators box. They are likely to have more parts/options, and surely more detail. However, the Wolf Guard Term box has tons more parts than the regular boxes, and its the same price. So there may be hope...but I wouldnt be surprised by $55-$60 US for the GKT box. For that price Id probably still get some...since most places sell around 15-20% off online, that still keeps them affordable. If they push them to $70 or more I may just stick to regular Termies for the project Im doing.

I'd have to see the boxes first, if they maintain quality, then picking them up is a must for me. Although I could see them being around $70, I would only get one box under those circumstances, and make them an army centerpiece.

To the the above, I like the halberds too, but I would love to see some Maces, Flails, or other weaponry that is not common place amongst models. I just don't like that the models all wield the same melee weapon.

As for the snapping issue... Well, I had that problem with my metals, the metal that was between the blade and hilt was too thin, and if the model was wiggled or dropped from a small height (4 inches) it broke off.

Footsloggin wrote:As for the snapping issue... Well, I had that problem with my metals, the metal that was between the blade and hilt was too thin, and if the model was wiggled or dropped from a small height (4 inches) it broke off.

Yeah, I would consider metal more problematic for that sort of thing than plastic. I wouldn't worry too much about plastic halberd ends breaking if stored &transported with reasonable care, but the metal bends very easily and so on.

tjkopena wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:As for the snapping issue... Well, I had that problem with my metals, the metal that was between the blade and hilt was too thin, and if the model was wiggled or dropped from a small height (4 inches) it broke off.

Yeah, I would consider metal more problematic for that sort of thing than plastic. I wouldn't worry too much about plastic halberd ends breaking if stored &transported with reasonable care, but the metal bends very easily and so on.

Yes, the metal does bend, and then, should you attempt to bend it back, the metal weakens, do this a few times, and it will snap off VERY easily.

Footsloggin wrote:

tjkopena wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:As for the snapping issue... Well, I had that problem with my metals, the metal that was between the blade and hilt was too thin, and if the model was wiggled or dropped from a small height (4 inches) it broke off.

Yeah, I would consider metal more problematic for that sort of thing than plastic. I wouldn't worry too much about plastic halberd ends breaking if stored &transported with reasonable care, but the metal bends very easily and so on.

Yes, the metal does bend, and then, should you attempt to bend it back, the metal weakens, do this a few times, and it will snap off VERY easily.

Well this is an obvious reality, happens the same with my Vindicare assassin with the exitus rifle, but a pin fixes for life

Speaking of which it would be nice to see vindicares buffed, I don't see over 100pts in that model with only a 40% chance to wound with a single shot each round, and any cover/invulnerable save will greatly decrease this chance anyway.

2+ rerolled to hit would make much more sense, or making the rifle wound on 3+.

Ehsteve wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:

tjkopena wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:As for the snapping issue... Well, I had that problem with my metals, the metal that was between the blade and hilt was too thin, and if the model was wiggled or dropped from a small height (4 inches) it broke off.

Yeah, I would consider metal more problematic for that sort of thing than plastic. I wouldn't worry too much about plastic halberd ends breaking if stored &transported with reasonable care, but the metal bends very easily and so on.

Yes, the metal does bend, and then, should you attempt to bend it back, the metal weakens, do this a few times, and it will snap off VERY easily.

Well this is an obvious reality, happens the same with my Vindicare assassin with the exitus rifle, but a pin fixes for life

Speaking of which it would be nice to see vindicares buffed, I don't see over 100pts in that model with only a 40% chance to wound with a single shot each round, and any cover/invulnerable save will greatly decrease this chance anyway.

2+ rerolled to hit would make much more sense, or making the rifle wound on 3+.

I believe the rumors said that the Vindicaire would have unlimited special ammunition rounds,not the current 1 per type per game setup that it has now,so that is a significant buff presuming the ammo types stay the same[Ignore Invulerable Saves,inflict 2 Wounds/3d6 Armor Pen,or wound on 2+]. I supposse a BS of 6 or 7 wouldn't be out of the question to give him some kind of a reroll. However,any further buff to the Spy Mask[reduce all cover saves by 1/negate 6+ cover] would be broken if combined with the rest of that.

Considering Chaos Terminators have those ridiculous spike racks that like to break if you look at them funny, I doubt halberds will be taken away from plastic Grey Knight Terminators.

Whatever1 wrote:
I believe the rumors said that the Vindicaire would have unlimited special ammunition rounds,not the current 1 per type per game setup that it has now,so that is a significant buff presuming the ammo types stay the same[Ignore Invulerable Saves,inflict 2 Wounds/3d6 Armor Pen,or wound on 2+]. I supposse a BS of 6 or 7 wouldn't be out of the question to give him some kind of a reroll. However,any further buff to the Spy Mask[reduce all cover saves by 1/negate 6+ cover] would be broken if combined with the rest of that.

Hell roll all of the ammo effects into one special rule and let him just be worth bothering with, even with unlimited ammo of the current variety he's just not very impressive.

I'd hope for something more like:

Exitus rifle
range: 48
Heavy 2
AP 2
wounds automatically
Any successful cover or invulnerable saves taken against wounds must be re-rolled
Any unsaved wound instead inflicts 2 wounds.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:
I believe the rumors said that the Vindicaire would have unlimited special ammunition rounds,not the current 1 per type per game setup that it has now,so that is a significant buff presuming the ammo types stay the same[Ignore Invulerable Saves,inflict 2 Wounds/3d6 Armor Pen,or wound on 2+]. I supposse a BS of 6 or 7 wouldn't be out of the question to give him some kind of a reroll. However,any further buff to the Spy Mask[reduce all cover saves by 1/negate 6+ cover] would be broken if combined with the rest of that.

Hell roll all of the ammo effects into one special rule and let him just be worth bothering with, even with unlimited ammo of the current variety he's just not very impressive.

I'd hope for something more like:

Exitus rifle
range: 48
Heavy 2
AP 2
wounds automatically
Any successful cover or invulnerable saves taken against wounds must be re-rolled
Any unsaved wound instead inflicts 2 wounds.

Jack

A 2 shot weapon hitting on 2+ able to pick out targets dealing 2 wounds...a little powerful?

Would like to see any of the changes to the other assassin, I mean I never take any others because they don't appeal as worth their points. With the vindicare at least you have a good chance of picking off your enemy's HQ which is hopefully worth more than the cost of your assassin.

Ehsteve wrote:
A 2 shot weapon hitting on 2+ able to pick out targets dealing 2 wounds...a little powerful?

Would like to see any of the changes to the other assassin, I mean I never take any others because they don't appeal as worth their points. With the vindicare at least you have a good chance of picking off your enemy's HQ which is hopefully worth more than the cost of your assassin.

Eh, my thinking is it needs to be threatening enough to encourage the enemy to approach it and force him to relocate, giving up some shooting, the 2 shots helps makes up for the turns he'd need to end up legging it. Plus it helps make up for his focus on shooting over melee (half the phases to do damage in over all). If we give him just unlimited special ammo his most useful role will be picking special wepaons and squad leaders out, and that benefit only applies versus some armies. (also mathhammer it out, even with what I said he only has a 63% chance per shot of killing a guy (of two wounds or less) in normal cover worse if they go to ground, less shots would make him even less reliable).

As to the current assassins I normally find the Eversor killy enough to pick off a support unit and then harass other stuff and the Callidus both dangerous to many things and offering me a chance to muck with my opponents setup. The Culexus is the one I normally overlook since its best used in very specific circumstances.

Jack

Jackmojo wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:
A 2 shot weapon hitting on 2+ able to pick out targets dealing 2 wounds...a little powerful?

Would like to see any of the changes to the other assassin, I mean I never take any others because they don't appeal as worth their points. With the vindicare at least you have a good chance of picking off your enemy's HQ which is hopefully worth more than the cost of your assassin.

Eh, my thinking is it needs to be threatening enough to encourage the enemy to approach it and force him to relocate, giving up some shooting, the 2 shots helps makes up for the turns he'd need to end up legging it. Plus it helps make up for his focus on shooting over melee (half the phases to do damage in over all). If we give him just unlimited special ammo his most useful role will be picking special wepaons and squad leaders out, and that benefit only applies versus some armies. (also mathhammer it out, even with what I said he only has a 63% chance per shot of killing a guy (of two wounds or less) in normal cover worse if they go to ground, less shots would make him even less reliable).

As to the current assassins I normally find the Eversor killy enough to pick off a support unit and then harass other stuff and the Callidus both dangerous to many things and offering me a chance to muck with my opponents setup. The Culexus is the one I normally overlook since its best used in very specific circumstances.

Jack

I guess the reduction of a cover save could be placed, and while should be able to kill, I don't want him to be able to just go. *Points Exodus rifle* *INSTA-GIB!!!* WIN!!!

He SHOULD be able to kill most of what he points his gun at, whilst remaining in the range of not insta-killing every enemy leader on the board that is MEQ or GEQ.

tjkopena wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:As for the snapping issue... Well, I had that problem with my metals, the metal that was between the blade and hilt was too thin, and if the model was wiggled or dropped from a small height (4 inches) it broke off.

Yeah, I would consider metal more problematic for that sort of thing than plastic. I wouldn't worry too much about plastic halberd ends breaking if stored &transported with reasonable care, but the metal bends very easily and so on.

Also, the plastic models have very little weight, thus little impact force upon a drop, they tend to bounce around more than break.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Footsloggin wrote:
I'd have to see the boxes first, if they maintain quality, then picking them up is a must for me. Although I could see them being around $70, I would only get one box under those circumstances, and make them an army centerpiece.

To the the above, I like the halberds too, but I would love to see some Maces, Flails, or other weaponry that is not common place amongst models. I just don't like that the models all wield the same melee weapon.

Sadly, Ill admit that I would likely get weak and spend the money for a box or two as well, I just wouldnt be very happy about it.

As far as melee weapons...maces or flails would be sweet. If the only options are swords or halberds Ill likely replace them with thunder hammers. Yes, I know its not useable in 40k, but all the Termies Im doing are for a non-GW game system.

True, my predator fell from the hood of a car, and didn't even snap off the Heavy Bolters... I was very happy.

Footsloggin wrote:
I guess the reduction of a cover save could be placed, and while should be able to kill, I don't want him to be able to just go. *Points Exodus rifle* *INSTA-GIB!!!* WIN!!!

He SHOULD be able to kill most of what he points his gun at, whilst remaining in the range of not insta-killing every enemy leader on the board that is MEQ or GEQ.

The two wounds things (aside from being shamelessly cribbed from his current options) seemed a better option for not making him too good versus high wound models without eternal warrior (i.e. monstrous creatures without invulnerable saves would die in one hit if he just always caused instant death).

Which remind me he should also always get 3d6 penetration versus vehicles.

Jack

I can confirm the post above. Plastic does indeed bounce. I was totally freaked out the other day when I dropped a terminator but happy that nothing broke.

I’m personally holding out for some leaked pictures of the sprues.

candy.man wrote:I can confirm the post above. Plastic does indeed bounce. I was totally freaked out the other day when I dropped a terminator but happy that nothing broke.

I’m personally holding out for some leaked pictures of the sprues.

Mmmmmm...

And as for 3d6 Penetration. I don't really mind that. I was just saying how most SM Unique commanders would die in 2 turns under those circumstances. As would some other commanders

Whatever1 wrote:I believe the rumors said that the Vindicaire would have unlimited special ammunition rounds,not the current 1 per type per game setup that it has now,so that is a significant buff presuming the ammo types stay the same[Ignore Invulerable Saves,inflict 2 Wounds/3d6 Armor Pen,or wound on 2+]. I supposse a BS of 6 or 7 wouldn't be out of the question to give him some kind of a reroll. However,any further buff to the Spy Mask[reduce all cover saves by 1/negate 6+ cover] would be broken if combined with the rest of that.

None of which will amount to anything if the Vindicare (and all his Assassin Super Friends) don't get their IC status back. Right now anyone with a gun and a keen eye can snipe one from across the table. Not exactly dignified for the galaxy's most stealthy sniper.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Whatever1 wrote:I believe the rumors said that the Vindicaire would have unlimited special ammunition rounds,not the current 1 per type per game setup that it has now,so that is a significant buff presuming the ammo types stay the same[Ignore Invulerable Saves,inflict 2 Wounds/3d6 Armor Pen,or wound on 2+]. I supposse a BS of 6 or 7 wouldn't be out of the question to give him some kind of a reroll. However,any further buff to the Spy Mask[reduce all cover saves by 1/negate 6+ cover] would be broken if combined with the rest of that.

None of which will amount to anything if the Vindicare (and all his Assassin Super Friends) don't get their IC status back. Right now anyone with a gun and a keen eye can snipe one from across the table. Not exactly dignified for the galaxy's most stealthy sniper.

Why not him stealth or a shroud esq rule like the current GK? Would keep him alive and shooting.

Well he has the Stealth Suit now, but I'm talking more about Assassins in general. As 'Independant Units', as they are now, they stick out like a sore thumb. I find that incongruous with the idea of an 'assassin' (other than the Eversor, of course).

Maybe if they all got Stealth Suits... I dunno. Point is, being a valid target from the word go in every game doesn't seem to fit with the way Assassins are portrayed - again, other than the Eversor, who goes to no effort to hide himself from his foes and, in fact, uses fear as a major weapon (which incidentally isn't represented by the rules either.. hmm). Bottom line - Assassins need to be better. I miss the 2nd Ed Assassins. They were amazing (HeroHammer disclaimers notwithstanding).

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well he has the Stealth Suit now, but I'm talking more about Assassins in general. As 'Independant Units', as they are now, they stick out like a sore thumb. I find that incongruous with the idea of an 'assassin' (other than the Eversor, of course).

Maybe if they all got Stealth Suits... I dunno. Point is, being a valid target from the word go in every game doesn't seem to fit with the way Assassins are portrayed (again, other than the Eversor, who goes to no effort to hide himself from his foes and, in fact, uses fear as a major weapon... something which isn't represented by the rules incidentally).

Yah, but he is a terror shock trooper. Maybe something that makes them blend into another unit, or make it so you have to take a test to see if your unit notices him. I dont know, but your right, he needs to be stealthy.

Happygrunt wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well he has the Stealth Suit now, but I'm talking more about Assassins in general. As 'Independant Units', as they are now, they stick out like a sore thumb. I find that incongruous with the idea of an 'assassin' (other than the Eversor, of course).

Maybe if they all got Stealth Suits... I dunno. Point is, being a valid target from the word go in every game doesn't seem to fit with the way Assassins are portrayed (again, other than the Eversor, who goes to no effort to hide himself from his foes and, in fact, uses fear as a major weapon... something which isn't represented by the rules incidentally).

Yah, but he is a terror shock trooper. Maybe something that makes them blend into another unit, or make it so you have to take a test to see if your unit notices him. I dont know, but your right, he needs to be stealthy.

Or possibly take a page from Fantasy and have the Eversor attached to a unit which can release him at any time, but is otherwise untouchable until released (let's say that if the unit is destroyed, he is automatically released as those keeping him back are removed), give him a drug allowing him to move 12" in the movement phase to represent him going absolute bat insane so you have an effective assault range of 18" and as an IC can roll 3d6 for difficult terrain.

Your enemies would be crapping themselves trying to figure out which unit is holding the assassin. THAT is fear tactics.

Does not sound right.

Ehsteve wrote:

Or possibly take a page from Fantasy and have the Eversor attached to a unit which can release him at any time, but is otherwise untouchable until released (let's say that if the unit is destroyed, he is automatically released as those keeping him back are removed), give him a drug allowing him to move 12" in the movement phase to represent him going absolute bat insane so you have an effective assault range of 18" and as an IC can roll 3d6 for difficult terrain.

Your enemies would be crapping themselves trying to figure out which unit is holding the assassin. THAT is fear tactics.

That sounds cool...also maybe give him the ability to be "hidden" in a piece of terrain at the start of the game, not revealed until he shoots, moves or the enemy does some kind of spot check to find him.

Eversor's don't hide! They scream "WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYY" and charge at the nearest xenos filth.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Eversor's don't hide! They scream "WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYY" and charge at the nearest xenos filth.

I was thinking the sniper one...Im not up on the names of the assassins. Actually would be a cool rule for any sniper type trooper...

H.B.M.C. wrote:Eversor's don't hide! They scream "WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYY" and charge at the nearest xenos filth.

But they have to be released first. You can't have it placed on the board at the beginning of the game and simply expect it to live long enough to engage the enemy especially if you want it to be as dangerous as it is fluff wise.

The rules for Goblin Fanatics/Assassins work quite well in that they either are forced to be released at a certain distance from the enemy or can be released at any time you wish, it works well mechanically and is flavourful as well. The enemy doesn't know which squad they are in, until you want them to know. You don't have to always believe it's them being stealthy, it's them being physically restrained until they are released at the enemy until they WRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYY and the fun begins.

That is for the Eversor (the one who is insane, and explodes when he dies).

As for the Vindicare (the sniper), stealth fields make perfect sense, since he's wearing gear which makes it impossible to be detected even by scent.

I would love that assasin.

Hide him in a unit fo grey knight terminators, and right before they get there, the enemy hears "WRRRRRRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYY!".

maybe we'll get lucky and GW will add in the other two assassins: the Venenum and the Vanus

Depending on the iconagraphy and ability to swap/convert weapon loadouts, A box of Grey Knight Termies would work great as Sgts and Termie-HQs in a regular army.

The Venenum and Vanus temple assassins are definitely not models that would be statted for a battlefield, unless they refluff the Venenum as having poison guns and blades or something crazy.

i can hope though

interesting

ph34r wrote:The Venenum and Vanus temple assassins are definitely not models that would be statted for a battlefield, unless they refluff the Venenum as having poison guns and blades or something crazy.

Oh boy, more crazy rules and exceptions to remember...

Are people seriously complaining about unique special rules?

In short- yes.

IMO, special rules, wargear, and other background fluff is what defines your unit on the battlefield.

Very few people would want a model with a GeQ statline, but no gadgets and toys or rules to make them varied and interesting.

"Oh,I have this human with a lasgun, but he doesn't get anything else. I can't effect him in any way."

However, if the vindicare can pick out models again, i'm going to love popping the painboy in those annoying nob bikers...

shrike wrote:In short- yes.

Yeah. Honestly, of all the stupid things people complain about, I think complaining that units have special rules is the stupidest.

ph34r wrote:

shrike wrote:In short- yes.

Yeah. Honestly, of all the stupid things people complain about, I think complaining that units have special rules is the stupidest.

Its not that they have them...its that there are just so many of them. Sure special rules add some flavor and character, but after a point they get to be cumbersome, and that point has been past long ago. A ton of special rules is fine in a small scale skirmish game like Necromunda, but in something the size of 40k they really need to be limited.

What makes it worse is when its a special rule that has the same effect as a simple stat change.

Like what?

Hmmm... I wonder if Sanctuary remains in the codex. It is my favorite psychic power of all time... Your demons want to attack me? SANCTUARY! I can shoot you, but you can't shoot me! Or come close for that matter...

I remember reading somewhere about "Out the Heretic!" or something along those lines, making one opponent squad type become demons? Idk. Anyone know if it was debunked?

Ehsteve wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well he has the Stealth Suit now, but I'm talking more about Assassins in general. As 'Independant Units', as they are now, they stick out like a sore thumb. I find that incongruous with the idea of an 'assassin' (other than the Eversor, of course).

Maybe if they all got Stealth Suits... I dunno. Point is, being a valid target from the word go in every game doesn't seem to fit with the way Assassins are portrayed (again, other than the Eversor, who goes to no effort to hide himself from his foes and, in fact, uses fear as a major weapon... something which isn't represented by the rules incidentally).

Yah, but he is a terror shock trooper. Maybe something that makes them blend into another unit, or make it so you have to take a test to see if your unit notices him. I dont know, but your right, he needs to be stealthy.

Or possibly take a page from Fantasy and have the Eversor attached to a unit which can release him at any time, but is otherwise untouchable until released (let's say that if the unit is destroyed, he is automatically released as those keeping him back are removed), give him a drug allowing him to move 12" in the movement phase to represent him going absolute bat insane so you have an effective assault range of 18" and as an IC can roll 3d6 for difficult terrain.

Your enemies would be crapping themselves trying to figure out which unit is holding the assassin. THAT is fear tactics.

All Assasins have Infiltrate,and as such the Eversor can arrive from Reserves via Outflank,and he can assault 12" due to Combat Drugs,giving him an 18" assault range from the short table edge. I supposse you could give the Eversor Fleet and/or Behind Enemy Lines,but realistically,he does what he's designed to do,which is devastate small,elite units.

Similarly,the Vindicaire is designed to pick off IC's. He can easily make his points in one turn. Maybe you could buff the Stealth Suit some,but he would be ridiculously broken if he regained his IC status and could join units,using a unit of PA GK's as ablative armor as he went about his buisness. Plus,that's not what assasins are suppossed to be about. They are suppossed to operate on their own,not join units of "mundane" troops.

Whatever1 wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well he has the Stealth Suit now, but I'm talking more about Assassins in general. As 'Independant Units', as they are now, they stick out like a sore thumb. I find that incongruous with the idea of an 'assassin' (other than the Eversor, of course).

Maybe if they all got Stealth Suits... I dunno. Point is, being a valid target from the word go in every game doesn't seem to fit with the way Assassins are portrayed (again, other than the Eversor, who goes to no effort to hide himself from his foes and, in fact, uses fear as a major weapon... something which isn't represented by the rules incidentally).

Yah, but he is a terror shock trooper. Maybe something that makes them blend into another unit, or make it so you have to take a test to see if your unit notices him. I dont know, but your right, he needs to be stealthy.

Or possibly take a page from Fantasy and have the Eversor attached to a unit which can release him at any time, but is otherwise untouchable until released (let's say that if the unit is destroyed, he is automatically released as those keeping him back are removed), give him a drug allowing him to move 12" in the movement phase to represent him going absolute bat insane so you have an effective assault range of 18" and as an IC can roll 3d6 for difficult terrain.

Your enemies would be crapping themselves trying to figure out which unit is holding the assassin. THAT is fear tactics.

All Assasins have Infiltrate,and as such the Eversor can arrive from Reserves via Outflank,and he can assault 12" due to Combat Drugs,giving him an 18" assault range from the short table edge. I supposse you could give the Eversor Fleet and/or Behind Enemy Lines,but realistically,he does what he's designed to do,which is devastate small,elite units.

Similarly,the Vindicaire is designed to pick off IC's. He can easily make his points in one turn. Maybe you could buff the Stealth Suit some,but he would be ridiculously broken if he regained his IC status and could join units,using a unit of PA GK's as ablative armor as he went about his buisness. Plus,that's not what assasins are suppossed to be about. They are suppossed to operate on their own,not join units of "mundane" troops.

not entirely true, some assassins pose as troops such as guardsmen in order to get closer to their target

Mad4Minis wrote:Its not that they have them...its that there are just so many of them. Sure special rules add some flavor and character, but after a point they get to be cumbersome, and that point has been past long ago. A ton of special rules is fine in a small scale skirmish game like Necromunda, but in something the size of 40k they really need to be limited.

What makes it worse is when its a special rule that has the same effect as a simple stat change.

Yes they are quite cumbersome when I can just ask my opponent if I can read it directly from his codex.

Can't wait for these to come out!!! Any idea of a date???

Whatever1 wrote:All Assasins have Infiltrate,and as such the Eversor can arrive from Reserves via Outflank,and he can assault 12" due to Combat Drugs,giving him an 18" assault range from the short table edge. I supposse you could give the Eversor Fleet and/or Behind Enemy Lines,but realistically,he does what he's designed to do,which is devastate small,elite units.

Similarly,the Vindicaire is designed to pick off IC's. He can easily make his points in one turn. Maybe you could buff the Stealth Suit some,but he would be ridiculously broken if he regained his IC status and could join units,using a unit of PA GK's as ablative armor as he went about his buisness. Plus,that's not what assasins are suppossed to be about. They are suppossed to operate on their own,not join units of "mundane" troops.

Agreed on the joining units, however, if you attempted to stick him in a unit of PAGK you're paying at least 150pts currently so maybe IST would be a better example (seeing as there is no confirmation yet on the rumours of the GK them getting rerolls to saves)

The 'releasing' method I thought would work well is because you must deliver the eversor to his destination, and outflanking is a chancey thing at 33% you'll be on the other side of the board. Another factor which I took into account was that GK get very few units, you're not running anything more than...5 squads in anywhere up to 2,000-2,500pts maximum, most likely 3-4 so the enemy isn't exactly getting swamped on all sides with eversor-holding units (if you can afford any more than 1 after buying all your regular GK units).

Vindicare is a tricky matter, cause it balances on a knife's edge with its rules. In small point games, it's very nice, in larger point games it starts getting out of hand attempting to pick off models on a larger board with more terrain with more potential enemies who can see the assassin and therefore shoot him.

Callidus is by far and large my favorite at my FLGS... I always get asked 'are you bringing that really annoying assassin to this one?', to which I reply with something like: "Maybe... you might see her pop up behind your hq... you might not" (of course they can just see on my list what I have, lol).

She's great, imo: 'a word in your ear' can put either a strong ranged unit out of range, or put bikes in dangerous terrain, or vehicles out in dangerous terrain, then of course you neural shred tons of units and her sword is just gross (ignores all saves, hands down!)... all this, and they can't even attack her because she'll just pop out and assault the turn she arrives!

Granted she dies 90% of the time, on the first assault, but if she can use her 'jump back' ability to fire and charge again... she's a wrecking ball! And terminators?! She'll just wipe the floor with them! Point is, I really really hope they leave her in... she's my favorite assassin (just wish we'd get a different variation of the 2 current models).

Eversor, if only for the time he turned a Carnifex into fine red mist. E-excuse me, I think I have something in my eye...

bhsman wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Its not that they have them...its that there are just so many of them. Sure special rules add some flavor and character, but after a point they get to be cumbersome, and that point has been past long ago. A ton of special rules is fine in a small scale skirmish game like Necromunda, but in something the size of 40k they really need to be limited.

What makes it worse is when its a special rule that has the same effect as a simple stat change.

Yes they are quite cumbersome when I can just ask my opponent if I can read it directly from his codex.

Thats exactly the point...it gets annoying when several times a turn someone is saying "hold on, let me look that up" You shouldnt need to constantly be digging through rulebooks and codexes to play a game. If you like excessively slow games with tons and tons of rules then fine, a decent number of people do...after all, Starfleet Battles is still quite popular.

IMO when a game starts reading like code of law then its a bit much...please reference annex B, page 157, paragraph 7, sub-paragraph 4, section A for that rule...

anywho this is about to take a major detour off topic...so back to the GK...

Mad4Minis wrote:Thats exactly the point...it gets annoying when several times a turn someone is saying "hold on, let me look that up" You shouldnt need to constantly be digging through rulebooks and codexes to play a game. If you like excessively slow games with tons and tons of rules then fine, a decent number of people do...after all, Starfleet Battles is still quite popular.

IMO when a game starts reading like code of law then its a bit much...please reference annex B, page 157, paragraph 7, sub-paragraph 4, section A for that rule...

No offense man but I hope you never have to play games like:

-Magic
-Risk
-Monopoly
-Etc.

All of which are games that easy to pick up the rules for but still require that you read them. Heaven forbid you take 10 seconds to check the other guy's codex to see what special rules his units have. Maybe this is more annoying for a new codex that you might've only heard rumors about and not read it for yourself, but one that's been out for awhile? Do you need to read the other guy's book if you've been playing him for awhile now and already know how he plays?

This is a hobby that involves taking a lot of time purchasing models and their respective rulebooks, assembling and cleaning them, priming, and finally basing and painting them. Are those extra 10 seconds really all that much in the long run? Maybe in a tournament scenario where you only have a set amount of time to play, those seconds can be crucial, but then why are you prepping for a tournament without knowing the rules for the new army that some people might be bringing in the first place?

Anyways, hopefully my last post on the subject, because this is honestly the weirdest complaint I've heard yet.

In my experience there are a lot of players willing to spend a lot of money on miniatures that they hack off a sprue, spend 10 seconds glueing up, and 10 minutes slapping on 3 base colors, so that they can play WAAC style. They're the ones who usually seem to get annoyed by special rules, since they never even started playing as a hobby, but as a competition.

In my experience the hobbyists are the ones who forget/don't know relevant rules 90% of the time.

In my experience everyone just forgets at times it's a game meant to be enjoyed with others over a beer or three pending the age.

My mistake, maybe it's not that the WAAC players that forget the special rules, but are the ones annoyed when everyone else doesn't remember every rule, and has to look it up.

It's a hobby and a game. We should all relax, and enjoy the diversity in the 40k universe. Special rules are part of what makes it interesting.

Leprousy wrote:My mistake, maybe it's not that the WAAC players that forget the special rules, but are the ones annoyed when everyone else doesn't remember every rule, and has to look it up.

It also isn't the "this army gets these 3 rules" , it is specific units getting a wall of text of rules so they can function differently.

no one complains about WBB, because necrons are just "hey does that unit have WBB?" "okay cool"

doom of malentai? different issue

Sorry to ask a minor question so late in the process, but it's such a bleeding long thread that going through it is just so daunting.

It's pretty clear that the DH army list will not be able to take allies. Has it been confirmed that other armies will no longer be able to take units from the codex as allies? I've got a partially-built Marine army that uses GK's, an Inquisitor, and some Stormies; if it's not going to be legal past April or whatever, it'd be nice to know so I can start finding an alternate use for the marine portion of the list.

Thanks, all.

I think it is pretty set in stone there will be no allies in or out of the codex. I think it plans to be standalone, especially since there's been no talk of 'inducted marines' being included within the 'dex.

Magc8Ball wrote:Sorry to ask a minor question so late in the process, but it's such a bleeding long thread that going through it is just so daunting.

It's pretty clear that the DH army list will not be able to take allies. Has it been confirmed that other armies will no longer be able to take units from the codex as allies? I've got a partially-built Marine army that uses GK's, an Inquisitor, and some Stormies; if it's not going to be legal past April or whatever, it'd be nice to know so I can start finding an alternate use for the marine portion of the list.

Thanks, all.

Best bet is to start splitting it into a DH and a Marine army or start some conversions. Most likely allies (both ways) will be completely out. Keep your marines marinie and everything else where it belongs. This actually caused me to start up an IG army because I had inducted guard with my Grey Knights. Now I have around 2000 points or so for guard.

rogueeyes wrote:
Best bet is to start splitting it into a DH and a Marine army or start some conversions. Most likely allies (both ways) will be completely out. Keep your marines marinie and everything else where it belongs. This actually caused me to start up an IG army because I had inducted guard with my Grey Knights. Now I have around 2000 points or so for guard.

This is the same thing I'm doing, my mechanicus army is half GH and half IG, I can move models between the two at will even through I can't field them at the same time thanks to glorious conversions

As long as assassins have the ability to kill specialized units and have assault grenades... I'll be very happy!

The Venenum, if it were included, would be some sort of heavy poison assassin. Personally I think he'd be redundant, but you never know. As for the Vanus - he's the most indirect of all the Assassins. He gets other people to get you, so I can't imagine him on the battlefield.

Well, if it works like in the Nemesis novel, the Vanus could be part of the =I= retinue and work a bit like the IG advisors (giving +1 to reserve or such...). Otherwise, I can't really see them in the codex.

Phil

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Venenum, if it were included, would be some sort of heavy poison assassin. Personally I think he'd be redundant, but you never know. As for the Vanus - he's the most indirect of all the Assassins. He gets other people to get you, so I can't imagine him on the battlefield.

Or he could have the ability similar to tervigons or the like to "Spawn" units with statistics equivalent to Conscripts...

Though that seems very far fetched. Heavy poisons could have similar rules to the Vindicare's special ammunition, such as reducing Initiative of opponents, wounding on a 2+, reducing WS...ETC.

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Venenum, if it were included, would be some sort of heavy poison assassin. Personally I think he'd be redundant, but you never know. As for the Vanus - he's the most indirect of all the Assassins. He gets other people to get you, so I can't imagine him on the battlefield.

attack that if passes can have an enemy unit fire upon another enemy unit?

Grundz wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Venenum, if it were included, would be some sort of heavy poison assassin. Personally I think he'd be redundant, but you never know. As for the Vanus - he's the most indirect of all the Assassins. He gets other people to get you, so I can't imagine him on the battlefield.

attack that if passes can have an enemy unit fire upon another enemy unit?

You keep him away from my Chaos Drea...oh wait nevermind.

Kurgash wrote:

Grundz wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:The Venenum, if it were included, would be some sort of heavy poison assassin. Personally I think he'd be redundant, but you never know. As for the Vanus - he's the most indirect of all the Assassins. He gets other people to get you, so I can't imagine him on the battlefield.

attack that if passes can have an enemy unit fire upon another enemy unit?

You keep him away from my Chaos Drea...oh wait nevermind.

Lol.

Conscripts shooting on conscripts! Gotta laugh there too

However, I'm wondering how elite my PAGK will be, and if I will be able to field my 30 in a 2k points game.

Power Armor is soooo last codex. Artificer Armored Grey Knights are the new orange.

Gitzbitah wrote:Power Armor is soooo last codex. Artificer Armored Grey Knights are the new orange.

I've read artificer, but it seems almost too good to be true...

Magc8Ball wrote:Sorry to ask a minor question so late in the process, but it's such a bleeding long thread that going through it is just so daunting.

It's pretty clear that the DH army list will not be able to take allies. Has it been confirmed that other armies will no longer be able to take units from the codex as allies? I've got a partially-built Marine army that uses GK's, an Inquisitor, and some Stormies; if it's not going to be legal past April or whatever, it'd be nice to know so I can start finding an alternate use for the marine portion of the list.

Thanks, all.

Also, depending on what exactly that you're running you'll have the WH codex to ally and be allied with for awhile longer.

Footsloggin wrote:Or he could have the ability similar to tervigons or the like to "Spawn" units with statistics equivalent to Conscripts...

No way in hell. The whole point of the vanus is that there is literally no evidence other than the rantings of one inquisitor that they even exist. Statting them in game would be just awful.

EDIT: apparently they are detailed more in Nemesis the novel, but still, Vanus are not battlefield assassins. Well, none of the assassins really are, but Vanus is even less.

Leprousy wrote:In my experience there are a lot of players willing to spend a lot of money on miniatures that they hack off a sprue, spend 10 seconds glueing up, and 10 minutes slapping on 3 base colors, so that they can play WAAC style. They're the ones who usually seem to get annoyed by special rules, since they never even started playing as a hobby, but as a competition.

I would think WAAC players would love special rules, the more the better, as it gives them something to try and trump the other guy with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

bhsman wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Thats exactly the point...it gets annoying when several times a turn someone is saying "hold on, let me look that up" You shouldnt need to constantly be digging through rulebooks and codexes to play a game. If you like excessively slow games with tons and tons of rules then fine, a decent number of people do...after all, Starfleet Battles is still quite popular.

IMO when a game starts reading like code of law then its a bit much...please reference annex B, page 157, paragraph 7, sub-paragraph 4, section A for that rule...

No offense man but I hope you never have to play games like:

-Magic
-Risk
-Monopoly
-Etc.

All of which are games that easy to pick up the rules for but still require that you read them. Heaven forbid you take 10 seconds to check the other guy's codex to see what special rules his units have. Maybe this is more annoying for a new codex that you might've only heard rumors about and not read it for yourself, but one that's been out for awhile? Do you need to read the other guy's book if you've been playing him for awhile now and already know how he plays?

This is a hobby that involves taking a lot of time purchasing models and their respective rulebooks, assembling and cleaning them, priming, and finally basing and painting them. Are those extra 10 seconds really all that much in the long run? Maybe in a tournament scenario where you only have a set amount of time to play, those seconds can be crucial, but then why are you prepping for a tournament without knowing the rules for the new army that some people might be bringing in the first place?

Anyways, hopefully my last post on the subject, because this is honestly the weirdest complaint I've heard yet.

Every rule in any given codex memorized in 10 seconds eh?...

Eh, NVM...on second though its just not worth it...

While at 27 pages and going, it is probably inevitable, but really, this whole thread is heading towards "no longer worth it" territory.

Please refrain from ANY personal attacks - everyone!

OK?

Vanus' fight information and intelligence wars. When I said they don't kill directly, I don't mean they hire units to kill people. They kill people thought manipulation. Basically, watch any episode of Burn Notice where Michael and the team use their skills to get rid of someone by making his allies think he's a threat (eg. making a mobster look like he's about to turn himself in as a witness so the mob will kill him for them - that sort of thing).

ph34r wrote:No way in hell. The whole point of the vanus is that there is literally no evidence other than the rantings of one inquisitor that they even exist. Statting them in game would be just awful.

EDIT: apparently they are detailed more in Nemesis the novel, but still, Vanus are not battlefield assassins. Well, none of the assassins really are, but Vanus is even less.

Exactly.

The only way to represent a Vanus in game would be a rule like:

Indirect Assassin - Before deployment, the player may choose one of his opponent's Independent Characters. That character is not deployed, and is counted as destroyed for all mission objective/kill point/victory point purposes.

And that would be, as you said, just awful.

I call dibbs on Sam Axe in my army.

I'll take Fi.

The Venenum, if it were included, would be some sort of heavy poison assassin. Personally I think he'd be redundant, but you never know. As for the Vanus - he's the most indirect of all the Assassins. He gets other people to get you, so I can't imagine him on the battlefield.

On the contrary, those two would open up some awesome possibilities.
Venenum could give your unit(s) poison type attacks and maybe weaken d3 enemy units as in lowering a ld stat or other stat (poisoned enemy troops).

Whereas the vanus would totally dissrupt enemy deployment, screw up reserve rolls, re-deploy enemy units like crazy, make vehicles stunned, units pinned etc etc.

Basically the venenum would be a unit booster and enemy weakener and the vanus a reserve dissruptor and enemy unit deployment catastrophy.

Nothing that I wouldnt like to see on the TT.

Tempus Fugitives made a profile for Imperial Assassins for their Scouring campaign, and I think the Vanus had:

-A rending power weapon (vibro-blade?)
-Melta Bombs
-Caused d3 vehicles to be glanced before the game started
-And something else?

Serious 'salt shaker' worth rumour over on Warseer about the rumored GK walker thingie

:

They will not get bogged down and there is two versions of the dredknight as i have read the first option will run ya 130pts with a gatling psycannon (heavy 12), and a heavy incinerator gun (fires like a hellhound) and its armed with two dred cca. the second is a dred same as above but also armed with a jump jet which will run 205pts and can move 12" then once per game it can boost to move 30" but may not assault afterwards.

as reguarding the rumors with upping the armor value that is not going to happen although there is a power that allows the vehicle to negate crew stunned and crew shaken.
stinger989 is offline Report Post Reply With Quote

Dear *insert diety here* the first sounds like a swarm armies worst nightmare. Your elites get gunned down by a gattling gun, and when your units get close, they can enjoy the flames!

pretre wrote:

wolfshadow wrote:

pretre wrote:More importantly, this rumor makes it look like the Inq is self-sufficient in their own codex and does not have 'See Codex BLAH'.

That's a big deal for cross edition balance.

That's actually a really good point.

And from the looks of it, they have added GK units and added inquisition units while only losing some of the lame extras (orbitals and Daemonhosts). I am pro-this. (Also notice that they are adding a lot of GK models, boxes and only a blister for Inquisition, meaning all those folks who were afraid they would 'lose' something to Inq don't have to worry.)

If they do this with Sisters, we will have New/More sisters units, vehicles and rules along with a parallel Inquisitor/Guard track that stands alone or mixes. Plus from the looks of it, at least 5 new boxes for the core list (in this case Sisters), which is awesome.

Pretty much best case scenario for all but the most stubborn.

Well, from what has been shown so far, I *am* afraid of losing the awesome rules for assassins.
I'd prefer the orbital strike over Deathstrike, any day as well.

H.B.M.C. wrote: Vanus' fight information and intelligence wars. When I said they don't kill directly, I don't mean they hire units to kill people. They kill people thought manipulation. Basically, watch any episode of Burn Notice where Michael and the team use their skills to get rid of someone by making his allies think he's a threat (eg. making a mobster look like he's about to turn himself in as a witness so the mob will kill him for them - that sort of thing).

ph34r wrote:No way in hell. The whole point of the vanus is that there is literally no evidence other than the rantings of one inquisitor that they even exist. Statting them in game would be just awful.
EDIT: apparently they are detailed more in Nemesis the novel, but still, Vanus are not battlefield assassins. Well, none of the assassins really are, but Vanus is even less.

Exactly.

The only way to represent a Vanus in game would be a rule like:
Indirect Assassin - Before deployment, the player may choose one of his opponent's Independent Characters. That character is not deployed, and is counted as destroyed for all mission objective/kill point/victory point purposes.

That might not be as silly as it sounds actually, for example;

Player 1 takes Vanus Assassin at a cost of say 150 points. At the start of the game he rolls 1 dice which represents his only opportunity of his methods working to cause damage to an enemy unit. On a roll of 6 the unit is removed as killed in action, on a 5 it takes a wound with no saves, on a 4 or 3 it takes a wound with armour saves allowed and on a 1 or 2 it does nothing and the controlling player has wasted their points.

So when you write your army list you have a choice of taking out a rock hard enemy unit for a little amount of points. Or you could be wasting the points altogether. Imagine how fethed off your opponent would be losing their 400 point HQ model before the game even starts!

*edited for my appalling use of HTML on my iPhone*

The Decapitator wrote:Imagine how fethed off your opponent would be losing their 400 point HQ model before the game even starts!

That would not be a good thing.

AlexHolker wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:Imagine how fethed off your opponent would be losing their 400 point HQ model before the game even starts!

That would not be a good thing.

Exactly but that's the point because there's only a 1 in 6 chance of that happening. The most any other roll of the dice is going to do for his opponents 150 odd point outlay is lose 1 wound and thats if it does anything at all! I'd take that for an extra chunk of points more than my opponent!

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'll take Fi.

I would call Michael Weston, but Simon's pretty tempting.

The Decapitator wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:Imagine how fethed off your opponent would be losing their 400 point HQ model before the game even starts!

That would not be a good thing.

Exactly but that's the point because there's only a 1 in 6 chance of that happening.

I'd rather leave it as a 0 in 6 chance like it is now.

Dante is such a fan favorite too, isn't he?

I don't see too many more 'affect your opponents models before the game'' characters coming out... I hope!

AlexHolker wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:

AlexHolker wrote:

The Decapitator wrote:Imagine how fethed off your opponent would be losing their 400 point HQ model before the game even starts!

That would not be a good thing.

Exactly but that's the point because there's only a 1 in 6 chance of that happening.

I'd rather leave it as a 0 in 6 chance like it is now.

You're right. It's better that we have things like Dante giving my HQ -1 WS, W, I, and A.

Even the worst sounding rules can't be discounted anymore in 40k. Especially if Matt Ward is writing it.

EDIT: Apparently, myself and Alpharius had the same idea at the same time

Hey it's Abaddon, the favorite of Horus who ripped off the talus himself and has launched countless Black Crusades. The favored of the eternal Chaos Gods!

Good thing Dante showed up with his Boo Mask ™ because Abaddon just lost a wound, attack, his bowel control, the ability to speak, etc etc

Alpharius wrote:Dante is such a fan favorite too, isn't he?

I don't see too many more 'affect your opponents models before the game'' characters coming out... I hope!

shealyr wrote:

EDIT: Apparently, myself and Alpharius had the same idea at the same time

Good call - you're quite the smart individual!

I think what it really comes down to is people forgetting about Dante.

I certainly remember a lot of people going apoplectic when his special rules were revealed!

Yeah, I know I wasn't best impressed by them. To say the least, I think AgeofEgos but a good - but more importantly witty - summary of it.

Ultimately though, despite being GW and their reputation, we have no reason to believe a Vanus will be in the Codex or that after Dante's deserved reception there'll be a similar rule again...

Is there any indication of them stopping the rediculous rules though? Every codex gets one or two units/special rules that just make you turn your head and wonder... wtf GW?

Ever since IG, it's been something in every book. Yeah, model company has got to sell models, so I understand why they do it.

All I'm saying is this:

A rule being crazy/stupid/overpowered will not keep it out of a codex.

Agreed, I mean, it attracts buyers to that unit, something GW wants, and often times gets...

Gah, any new rumors yet? Want some about the AAGK/PAGK...

I could see a Vanus with rules similar to the Changelling and Callidus:

At the beginning of the game, before rolling to seize the initiative, an enemy unit takes a Ld test. If failed, they must conduct a round of shooting at a friendly target of the Vanus' choice. Vehicles count as Ld 9. If the test is passed, you may select another unit, and so on, until one unit fails or you run out of enemy units.

Basically it would allow you to do some horrific damage first turn, but only with a little luck. Bad luck and you would do nothing, and mediocre luck might have a unit you are not terribly interested in shooting something. Depending on price, you might say that so long as he is on the table he gets to force a roll at the beginning of the turn (but only one, and only in LOS) but that might be hard to price.

As for Assassin McPoison, giving him a poison grenade launcher, with various ammo types that give different status effects might be neat. Neat, but not particularly in line with the assassin part.

I don't see why it needs all these new rules. Why not do things which would help the GK army using existing rules for other units? Limited as it is now (and as it will be).

Most I can see if the ability to redeploy a certain number of units before the game begins and perhaps some sort of bonus to bringing on your own units from reserves or a penalty to your enemy's own reserve rolls (whether rerolling successful checks or modifiers i don't know).

And in any case, why would I spend 150pts on this 'Vanus' attempting to take out an enemies HQ when I could for example pay 110pts for a model which does this much more effectively than most: Vindicare.

I honestly don't see any place for it in the GK army. Inquisitor henchmen should be able to do 1/2 the things he does anyway.

Next thing we'll see the 'Financius' in the GK Army Book entries, an assassin specializing in finance who is able to audit the opponent's list and check for inconsistencies and maximize the economy of your own list.



FEAR THE FINANCIUS!

I'd like to be given the ability to have a variety of assassins, each having their own pros and cons to them, and the four we have now seems plenty enough if they get revamped.

Some of the rules rumours for GK have erked me somewhat and I am hoping that they are a case of over exaggerated rumours and not fact. I think the rumour of the two walkers, one with dual heavy weapons and DCCWs and the other walker bearing a turbo boosting jump pack, is especially worrying (what’s with Matt Wards obsession with flying dreadnaughts???).

Hopefully Matt Ward’s inspiration for the GK codex wasn’t an over the top 80’s Action movie/Chuck Norris movie like the BA codex.

Financius Assassin- allows your army to be 10% over the points limit, and subtracts d6% of your opponent's force- they must be removed immediately.

Flying dreadnought? I'd buy it.

Ehsteve wrote:I don't see why it needs all these new rules. Why not do things which would help the GK army using existing rules for other units? Limited as it is now (and as it will be).

Most I can see if the ability to redeploy a certain number of units before the game begins and perhaps some sort of bonus to bringing on your own units from reserves or a penalty to your enemy's own reserve rolls (whether rerolling successful checks or modifiers i don't know).

And in any case, why would I spend 150pts on this 'Vanus' attempting to take out an enemies HQ when I could for example pay 110pts for a model which does this much more effectively than most: Vindicare.

I honestly don't see any place for it in the GK army. Inquisitor henchmen should be able to do 1/2 the things he does anyway.

Next thing we'll see the 'Financius' in the GK Army Book entries, an assassin specializing in finance who is able to audit the opponent's list and check for inconsistencies and maximize the economy of your own list.

FEAR THE FINANCIUS!

The 150 points figure was just a random number I picked out the air for use an example. Had I have said 25 points would that have interested you more? What price would you guys pay for a unit with these 'rules' ?

The Decapitator wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:I don't see why it needs all these new rules. Why not do things which would help the GK army using existing rules for other units? Limited as it is now (and as it will be).

Most I can see if the ability to redeploy a certain number of units before the game begins and perhaps some sort of bonus to bringing on your own units from reserves or a penalty to your enemy's own reserve rolls (whether rerolling successful checks or modifiers i don't know).

And in any case, why would I spend 150pts on this 'Vanus' attempting to take out an enemies HQ when I could for example pay 110pts for a model which does this much more effectively than most: Vindicare.

I honestly don't see any place for it in the GK army. Inquisitor henchmen should be able to do 1/2 the things he does anyway.

Next thing we'll see the 'Financius' in the GK Army Book entries, an assassin specializing in finance who is able to audit the opponent's list and check for inconsistencies and maximize the economy of your own list.

FEAR THE FINANCIUS!

The 150 points figure was just a random number I picked out the air for use an example. Had I have said 25 points would that have interested you more? What price would you guys pay for a unit with these 'rules' ?

Well we're talking about a rule which removes models on a 6 which can be equated to current psychic powers or equipment (Jaws of the Wolf World, Shokk Attack Gun etc). This does not require a test of any kind to initiate, has only a 1/6 chance of succeeding and has no presence as a model on the table and as such, is nothing more than an army special rule if you think about it.

To be honest I wouldn't pay anything more than 75pts or 50pts depending on the full rules for the model, and even then I most likely wouldn't take it since I rarely play an actual inquisitor and just Grey Knights and doesn't fit with the whole flavour of the 'clense and purity'. That's just me, and even then, if this ever came to light (not that I expect it ever will but then again we have giant wolf riders) I would expect it to only be able to be taken with an inquisitor.

If it ever did come as a model, it would most likely be an upgraded henchman for the inquisitor.

Which reminds me: Are there any real rumours of change for the Inquisitor Henchmen? I heard they were nerfing the ability to fire at all deepstriking units

Dunno if it has been brought up yet, but some Vindicare rumors have surfaced:

BoLS wrote:There has been a LOT of chatter over the last few weeks regarding the upcoming Grey Knights book. Here is the latest we've heard about the galaxy's favorite sniper, the Vindicare:

Exitus weapons are said to be AP:1
Both a rifle (sniper) and pistol come as standard equipment
Weapon ranges are said to be unchanged
Unlimited special Exitus ammo types are now available: ~Apparently the Imperium sends Vindicares into the field with ammo clips now!
-Hellfire (wounds on a 2+)
-Turbo Penetrator (doubles wounds, 4d6 penetration)
-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

Victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game? Eep! Seer council and Eldrad will not be happy. Nor will any daemons, Lysander in combat with power weapon-wielding models, etc., etc.

puma713 wrote:Dunno if it has been brought up yet, but some Vindicare rumors have surfaced:

BoLS wrote:There has been a LOT of chatter over the last few weeks regarding the upcoming Grey Knights book. Here is the latest we've heard about the galaxy's favorite sniper, the Vindicare:

Exitus weapons are said to be AP:1
Both a rifle (sniper) and pistol come as standard equipment
Weapon ranges are said to be unchanged
Unlimited special Exitus ammo types are now available: ~Apparently the Imperium sends Vindicares into the field with ammo clips now!
-Hellfire (wounds on a 2+)
-Turbo Penetrator (doubles wounds, 4d6 penetration)
-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

Victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game? Eep! Seer council and Eldrad will not be happy. Nor will any daemons, Lysander in combat with power weapon-wielding models, etc., etc.

Shield Breaker seems like Terminator Character Bane as well... Is that Calgar? BOOOM!!! Ok, now he doesn't have an Invulnerable save. BOOOM!!! Ok, now hes dead by the Turbo Penetrator. Sounds like a scary unit who will be soaking up a lot of fire... May actually pick one up... Proxying my scout sniper just isn't the same...

BoLS wrote:
-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

Terminators are screwed!

BoLS wrote:-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

And once again the Daemonhunters cause silly consequences because of the lack of distinction made with Invulnerable saves. An AP bullet that burns out a field generator is one thing, an AP bullet that destroys the God-granted, renewable, protection of the Emperor or one that removes your ability to dodge is an over-abstraction.

DA's Forever wrote:

BoLS wrote:
-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

Terminators are screwed!

If this is true, then Vindacare assassins will definately become some of the most high priority targets in the game... Unless there's a better assassin for the job...

I haven't been following but:

Isn't the Vindicare something of a ranged assassin?

Do they ignore the effects of the Shrouding?

Does the Exitus rifle only do one shot per turn?

Aren't the rumors supposed to be Termies = 2 wounds?

And isn't this supposed to be just that; RUMOURS.

Indeed it is but if there's truth... my poor Terminators..

If it is true then he nonetheless only has one shot and frankly 3+ invulnerable saves deserve to be beaten somehow.
Armies such as Daemons and Eldar are in much greater threat IF it is true.

Even so, it's still just a RUMOUR.

malfred wrote:Isn't the Vindicare something of a ranged assassin?

Yes.

Do they ignore the effects of the Shrouding?

Vindicares traditionally have a Spy Mask that might affect this.

Does the Exitus rifle only do one shot per turn?

I'd assume so.

Aren't the rumors supposed to be Termies = 2 wounds?

Only super GK terminators. Normal GK terminators and those in other armies aren't affected.

AlexHolker wrote:

BoLS wrote:-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

And once again the Daemonhunters cause silly consequences because of the lack of distinction made with Invulnerable saves. An AP bullet that burns out a field generator is one thing, an AP bullet that destroys the God-granted, renewable, protection of the Emperor or one that removes your ability to dodge is an over-abstraction.

In all fairness, arn't the grey knights supposed be able to do nothing less then take out the protection of "Gods", and destroy those that they empower? And that whole psychic thing going onwith them might help in their efforts to hinder an opponent from dodging blows...

Carlovonsexron wrote:In all fairness, arn't the grey knights supposed be able to do nothing less then take out the protection of "Gods", and destroy those that they empower? And that whole psychic thing going onwith them might help in their efforts to hinder an opponent from dodging blows...

The Vindicare is not a Grey Knight, and he's not a psychic. And a shield-breaker bullet being especially effective at hitting evasive targets is still stupid.

AlexHolker wrote:

BoLS wrote:-Shield Breaker (victim loses invulnerables for the rest of the game)

And once again the Daemonhunters cause silly consequences because of the lack of distinction made with Invulnerable saves. An AP bullet that burns out a field generator is one thing, an AP bullet that destroys the God-granted, renewable, protection of the Emperor or one that removes your ability to dodge is an over-abstraction.

I find it easier to just not think about the rules. Just roll with it, and it'll work out fine

That shield breaker round probably has to cause an unsaved wound to have that effect. If it does, it seems like a very high risk, high reward proposition to fire it at a 3++ target.

DA's Forever wrote:Indeed it is but if there's truth... my poor Terminators..

If your opponent is using his vindicare to take pot shots at your terminators rather than your 200 point HQ, then be happy. Assuming BS 5 and wounding on a 4+, that is on average 2.5 dead termies in a game (if he can manage to catch your termies out in the open every round). So relax, your termies will be just fine.

SW armies with thier really expensive, tricked out, TWL should be the ones to be concerned as it will likely bypasses thier meat shields, high toughness, and storm shield.

Unless it's been debunked, I thought that assassins had BS7 or something, can't quite remember who I heard that from.

AlexHolker wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:In all fairness, arn't the grey knights supposed be able to do nothing less then take out the protection of "Gods", and destroy those that they empower? And that whole psychic thing going onwith them might help in their efforts to hinder an opponent from dodging blows...

The Vindicare is not a Grey Knight, and he's not a psychic. And a shield-breaker bullet being especially effective at hitting evasive targets is still stupid.

my bad, I wasnt really following the conversation, and though it was a refrence to a grey knight unit: I fully agree, its stupid on an assassin!

wyomingfox wrote:

DA's Forever wrote:Indeed it is but if there's truth... my poor Terminators..

If your opponent is using his vindicare to take pot shots at your terminators rather than your 200 point HQ, then be happy. Assuming BS 5 and wounding on a 4+, that is on average 2.5 dead termies in a game (if he can manage to catch your termies out in the open every round). So relax, your termies will be just fine.

SW armies with thier really expensive, tricked out, TWL should be the ones to be concerned as it will likely bypasses thier meat shields, high toughness, and storm shield.

I tip my hat to you good sir! Meat shield Termies!

If anyone has noticed, the vindicare might be skilled enough to hit a unit that has an invulnerable save because of its dodging skills. Not that they would have any chance to dodge a snipers bullet that they are totally unaware of.

Stop trying to apply realism to 40k.

I hope dearly that there are termies with 2 wounds (even if they are super one squad per army ones or whatever). It'd let me have a thunderwolf cavalry style unit while playing GK! cigarette much right?

Jaon wrote:If anyone has noticed, the vindicare might be skilled enough to hit a unit that has an invulnerable save because of its dodging skills. Not that they would have any chance to dodge a snipers bullet that they are totally unaware of.

Stop trying to apply realism to 40k.

They aren't saying he cant hit a dodging unit...they are saying that his bullets ability to take away a units invul save (which would be a dodge fluff wise for some units) is bunk. I agree.

Kinda hard to dodge with a bullet in your knee cap .

Admittedly, if someone can dodge bullets and close combat attacks to such an extent that they gain an invulnerable save, then they can probably dodge a bullet via pirouetting on their pinky or spinning on their head rather than use their knee/legs.

all these rumors sound good to me so far, am interested in hearing more.

As far as the vindi is concerned, they are probably expensive and if the army really is as 'elite' as they say it is the vindi will skyrocket to the top of the target priority list.

I agree with others, the 'shield breaker' is a little powerful but I don't think it's OTT, especcially in combination with the other rumours of the army.

Also, if one needs to visulaize the shot as if its real could be thought of as a classification of bullet that the assassin changes the specific type for the enemy; ie oh I'm fighting the foul taint of chaos so I'll bring these fancy magicla ward bullets that kryptonite the dark gods force fields, or oh I'm fighting Eldar so I'll pop a cap right in that chicks hip so she can't move as fast and therefore can't keep flipjacking outta the way of my homies attacks. and so on...

All in all how many players will even play GK at all much less field more then one of these per list, so realistically you won't face these assassins on any type of reggular basis.

Gitzbitah wrote:That shield breaker round probably has to cause an unsaved wound to have that effect. If it does, it seems like a very high risk, high reward proposition to fire it at a 3++ target.

Unless it's automatic, like a marker light.

Now what would be really awesome and original (albeit OP unless the point cost is adjusted accordingly)
would be if the vindi has the ability to take out models that are inside transports (open topped at least).

If open top transport then vindi gets to pick a target amongst the models riding in said open topped transports.
That would be bad for nobs in open top trukks and dark eldar HQs riding in those annoying banana boats every single DE list is filled to the brim with.

I cant see it being unrealistic that a super sniper cant hit a person that is standing on the open deck of some transport vehicle.

kronk wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:That shield breaker round probably has to cause an unsaved wound to have that effect. If it does, it seems like a very high risk, high reward proposition to fire it at a 3++ target.

Unless it's automatic, like a marker light.

That's what some are postulating. That the Shieldbreaker may not even cause a wound. It may just destroy a shield *shrug*

I'm also interested in the Turbo-Penetrator, if it's true. Armour Pen on 4D6 is average 14. Plus, if it still retains the sniper rule, then it is Rending on any 6's rolled and its AP1.

puma713 wrote:

kronk wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:That shield breaker round probably has to cause an unsaved wound to have that effect. If it does, it seems like a very high risk, high reward proposition to fire it at a 3++ target.

Unless it's automatic, like a marker light.

That's what some are postulating. That the Shieldbreaker may not even cause a wound. It may just destroy a shield *shrug*

I'm also interested in the Turbo-Penetrator, if it's true. Armour Pen on 4D6 is average 14. Plus, if it still retains the sniper rule, then it is Rending on any 6's rolled and its AP1.

Answer to Land Raiders!

AlexHolker wrote:

Do they ignore the effects of the Shrouding?

Vindicares traditionally have a Spy Mask that might affect this.

As it is now, there is nothing that can negate the shrouding. Searchlights or acute senses or anything. Not even spymasks in my understanding.


As for negating dodges: This is a specially crafted set of ammunition, wielded by arguably the best shot in the 40k universe. Dodging this bullet is very much by chance. Not to mention if you have already been shot by this ammunition, you are probably a lot worse for wear than before.

I take all these rumours of changes to the ammunition with a heaping of salt because the vindicare does not need a who amount of tweaking in order to make it better, simply an update to make it compatible with 5th ed.

Unlimited ammo: reasonable. Ability to permanently negate an invulnerable save: unlikely and extreme cheese potential

To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Footsloggin wrote:To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Agreed, BS7 or BS8 is not out of the question (hell BS10 to make a point), given all other assassins are BS5 and the legendary aim of the vindicare. I mean all assassins having the same statline is a little...boring.

I mean they're only getting a 4+ to wound, so hitting is the biggest issue with the Vindicare, which shouldn't be an issue at all.

I wonder if they're doing anything with the assassin models, an update on the cullexus which isn't another "I AM POINTING!" pose or if there were an eversor in mid WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, that would be awesome and actually make me want to buy one

Ehsteve wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Agreed, BS7 or BS8 is not out of the question (hell BS10 to make a point), given all other assassins are BS5 and the legendary aim of the vindicare. I mean all assassins having the same statline is a little...boring.

I mean they're only getting a 4+ to wound, so hitting is the biggest issue with the Vindicare, which shouldn't be an issue at all.

I wonder if they're doing anything with the assassin models, an update on the cullexus which isn't another "I AM POINTING!" pose or if there were an eversor in mid WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, that would be awesome and actually make me want to buy one

Or maybe streamline the Culexus model so it doesn't look like a bobblehead.

puma713 wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Agreed, BS7 or BS8 is not out of the question (hell BS10 to make a point), given all other assassins are BS5 and the legendary aim of the vindicare. I mean all assassins having the same statline is a little...boring.

I mean they're only getting a 4+ to wound, so hitting is the biggest issue with the Vindicare, which shouldn't be an issue at all.

I wonder if they're doing anything with the assassin models, an update on the cullexus which isn't another "I AM POINTING!" pose or if there were an eversor in mid WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, that would be awesome and actually make me want to buy one

Or maybe streamline the Culexus model so it doesn't look like a bobblehead.

Agreed, the whole head-piece needs a redesign...

I wouldn't say a redesign. Just a better sculpt to match the artwork. Have you seen the picture of the Culexus in the Necron Codex? fething badass. Now if only they could make the model look like that. Same pose would kick ass too.

I personally haven't seen the Culexus from the Necrons codex. And if I did, I probably just assumed it was a Necron...

The one in the Necron codex is just a guy in a black body suit, with an elongated skull helmet and the culexus's weapon on the side of it. Basically the current art, but much smaller head, and in a really boring pose. I'd rather have the current style model, maybe tone down the head a tiny bit, and give him a more actiony pose. Not tone down the head to the point of boring, and remove any pose at all.

I have to say this codex is sounding rather crap (which is sad because I was hoping that GK would be my first imperial army). I don't care what buffs you have, if you have a low model count army my lootas will kill you to death and my 6pt. boyz with four attacks on the charge will kill you to death.

olympia wrote:I have to say this codex is sounding rather crap (which is sad because I was hoping that GK would be my first imperial army). I don't care what buffs you have, if you have a low model count army my lootas will kill you to death and my 6pt. boyz with four attacks on the charge will kill you to death.

Holy Imperial Sh t ! Ork lootas and 6 pt boyz can now kill you until you die, nerf that codex immediately

AlexHolker wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:In all fairness, arn't the grey knights supposed be able to do nothing less then take out the protection of "Gods", and destroy those that they empower? And that whole psychic thing going onwith them might help in their efforts to hinder an opponent from dodging blows...

The Vindicare is not a Grey Knight, and he's not a psychic. And a shield-breaker bullet being especially effective at hitting evasive targets is still stupid.

FYI, the MX379 Vindicare "Shieldbreaker" round also comes equipped with a bank of mini-suspensors and a microsensor to allow limited course correction in flight. It's some of the best technology the Imperium has to offer.



That, and you guys are also arguing about logic and realism in the context of PEOPLE DODGING BULLETS. Some perspective, please.

olympia wrote:I have to say this codex is sounding rather crap (which is sad because I was hoping that GK would be my first imperial army). I don't care what buffs you have, if you have a low model count army my lootas will kill you to death and my 6pt. boyz with four attacks on the charge will kill you to death.

See, now you ruined it for everyone. Until you went and posted that GW had no idea there were horde/swarm armies, and people could have exploited their ignorance to great LOLZ while housing the brand new uberhyped GK army.

Now they are gonna know about horde/swarm armies and they will give the GK big guns to kill lots of low point/low quality troops before they close to CC. You ruined it all.

Seriously? Unless they really do have a rerollable armor save, no 20 man army will be worth the plastic its cast in. Look at Nob Bikers. High toughness, great wound allocation, superb mobility, access to every conventional save and FNP- and it isn't enough. They fall to many armies out there.

Especially with the introduction of Codex: Poisoned Weapons, there really isn't a good way to make an elite army survivable with any existing rules. I hope that whatever GW does with the Grey Knights allows them to compete, but it really will take something akin to rerollable 2+ saves to have them weather even the melee fire of a horde army if they only have 20 models.

Gitzbitah wrote:Seriously? Unless they really do have a rerollable armor save, no 20 man army will be worth the plastic its cast in. Look at Nob Bikers. High toughness, great wound allocation, superb mobility, access to every conventional save and FNP- and it isn't enough. They fall to many armies out there.

Especially with the introduction of Codex: Poisoned Weapons, there really isn't a good way to make an elite army survivable with any existing rules. I hope that whatever GW does with the Grey Knights allows them to compete, but it really will take something akin to rerollable 2+ saves to have them weather even the melee fire of a horde army if they only have 20 models.

One thing to remember...just because an army CAN be played with XXX number of models doesnt mean it should. Hell, you can play Orks with 4 models if you really wanted to.

Another thing to consider...even if the "20 man army" is of useable point size its likely not going to be a "take all comers" army. I would figure that GKs most elite list would be most useful against their intended enemy...daemons, and tailored with special rules and abilities to combat them. You may be able to put together a killer anti-daemon list with only 20 GKs, but it wouldnt be excessively strong against other armies of similar size and points. For instance...a NFW should be stronger against a bloodletter than an Ork Nob. Any bonuses/effects it has beyond a normal power weapon should be applied only to deamons.

I would be very disappointed in GW if they made GK a super well rounded elite army. Against anything other than deamons they should behave like upgraded/extra expensive SM. They are a very specialized army, and should be designed that way.

Sadly, if GW thinks there is enough money in it they will make them all kinds of broken. If we end up with super psycher Space Wolves Ill be a little annoyed. If they make them super effective against all armies then they are nothing more than uber marines...and thats not what they are supposed to be.

Wonder if my old Daemonhunter List will still be viable in the new Damonhunter Codex:

3000 Pts - Daemonhunters Roster - Daemonhunters Apocalypse

HQ: Brother-Captain Stern (7#, 452 Pts)
1 Brother-Captain Stern @ 452 Pts
GK Terminator Retinue
0 Grey Knight Terminator Retinue @ [311] Pts
GK Terminator(s); Holocaust
6 GK Terminator(s) @ [291] Pts
Incinerator

HQ: Inquisitor Lord (7#, 311 Pts)
1 Inquisitor Lord @ 311 Pts
Sanctuary; Artificer Armour; Sacred Incense; Unguents of Warding; Annointed Weapon; Storm Shield; Mount in Chimera
1 Sacred Incense @ [10] Pts
1 Annointed Weapon @ [0] Pts
1 Chimera @ [108] Pts
Dozer Blade; Hunter Killer Missile; Smoke Launchers; Turret Heavy Flamer; Heavy Flamer
1 Acolyte @ [9] Pts
Close combat weapon (x1); Bolter
1 Acolyte @ [9] Pts
Close combat weapon (x1); Bolter
1 Warrior @ [20] Pts
Veteran Guardsman; Plasmagun (x1)
1 Warrior @ [20] Pts
Veteran Guardsman; Plasmagun (x1)
1 Warrior @ [20] Pts
Veteran Guardsman; Plasmagun (x1)

Troops: Grey Knights (7#, 301 Pts)
4 Grey Knights @ 301 Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Troops: Grey Knights (7#, 301 Pts)
4 Grey Knights @ 301 Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Fast Attack: Grey Knight Teleport Attack (7#, 271 Pts)
4 Grey Knight Teleport Attack @ 271 Pts
Deep Strike
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Fast Attack: Grey Knight Teleport Attack (7#, 271 Pts)
4 Grey Knight Teleport Attack @ 271 Pts
Deep Strike
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Heavy Support: Grey Knights Dreadnought (1#, 170 Pts)
1 Grey Knights Dreadnought @ 170 Pts
Blessed; Sacred Hull; Incinerator; Twin Linked Lascannon

Heavy Support: Grey Knights Dreadnought (1#, 165 Pts)
1 Grey Knights Dreadnought @ 165 Pts
Blessed; Sacred Hull; Twin Linked Lascannon; Missile Launcher

Heavy Support: Grey Knights Dreadnought (1#, 165 Pts)
1 Grey Knights Dreadnought @ 165 Pts
Blessed; Sacred Hull; Twin Linked Lascannon; Missile Launcher

Troops: Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (10#, 140 Pts)
9 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 140 Pts
Flamer (x1); Grenade Launcher (x1)
1 Veteran Stormtrooper @ [35] Pts
Hellpistol (x1); Power Weapon (x1)

Troops: Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (10#, 140 Pts)
9 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 140 Pts
Flamer (x1); Grenade Launcher (x1)
1 Veteran Stormtrooper @ [35] Pts
Hellpistol (x1); Power Weapon (x1)

Fast Attack: Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron [Guard] @ 155 Pts
1 Valkyrie [Guard] @ [155] Pts
Lascannon; Multiple Rocket Pods (x2); Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2)

Fast Attack: Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron [Guard] @ 155 Pts
1 Valkyrie [Guard] @ [155] Pts
Lascannon; Multiple Rocket Pods (x2); Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2)

Total Roster Cost: 2997

Created with Army Builder
Copyright (c) 1997-2006 Lone Wolf Development, Inc. All rights reserved.

if not I have to do a lot of rebuilding.

Gitzbitah wrote:Seriously? Unless they really do have a rerollable armor save, no 20 man army will be worth the plastic its cast in.

I can imagine a GH army being rather effective with assassins shooting dead nobs/powerfists/whatever leaving normal troops fighting 2+ rr saving power weaponed threashers. and if you get tarpitted, 6" holocaust blast.

If the army really gets everything in the rumors, it doesn't seem bad, your running me down with boys, I'm shooting them, and then no-scatter teleporting behind your lines to kill your looters and such, when you reach combat, it'll be with no nobs (since I can assassinate them and back away while firing) and with such a small army size it'll be difficult to get enough boys in combat to kill them all in a reasonable amount of time.

GK might not be great, but they could be different and fun, which is pretty great.
or they could be extra shiney space marines of aweful, which would not be fun.

I'm trying to grasp why posting a 3,000 point list when the codex is still months and months away seriously contributes to the rumors . . . probably try the "Army List" section of the forum.

I, for one, eagerly await the coming of the Shiny marines of Cheese.

Vengence shall be mine upon all those who said GKs sucked.

yep. I wanted do collect for 2 years, but I didn't have the dosh. When I finally decided to go for it, GW had taken the codexes away and the C:GK were in the pipeline.
I wanna see them fighting in the midst of a swarm of 'nids, with a decent chance of winning...

IF they have access to the dreadnought with a Heavy 12 Psycannon, then I don't see them having a problem with ork hordes... Especially if it has a long range of 36-48", then the horde will recieve around 7 wounds on their boyz a turn, even IF you have a KFF, Psycannons ignore invulns... unless this varient does not.

Overall, unless there are a few MORE new toys in my arsenal, it's going to be *Vindicare snipes PK* *Dreadnought guns down orks* *GK proceed to get killed by the grots I missed *

Vindicare sniping PK Nobz makes Boyz squads very, very, very, very poor counters to GK. A single successful Hit/dead result with the 2 wound shot and the Dreadnought just screams OM NOM NOM and rolls its face around until all the Boyz are dead.

Not too much, I mean, if 10-15 orks reaches a 5 man squad, it COULD be lethal...Unless GK have 2-3 attacks a piece in which case... Ork mobs are going to suffer... Plus the GK could fire their Storm-bolters and crush those remaining... So... I'm not too sure. Though the Dreadnought does scream Psycannon of DOOM!!!

olympia wrote:I have to say this codex is sounding rather crap (which is sad because I was hoping that GK would be my first imperial army). I don't care what buffs you have, if you have a low model count army my lootas will kill you to death and my 6pt. boyz with four attacks on the charge will kill you to death.

Yeah, this codex sure will be terrible considering NOBODY HAS SEEN THE THING YET. I absolutely hate it people who judge a book by it's cover when there's not even a cover to judge it by. Call the book crap all you want when it comes out, but at least wait a few months, jeez. Also, weight of dice will kill anything, which is kind of the Orks' MO. That's the problem for any small, elite army, and it's designed to be that way.

Footsloggin wrote:Not too much, I mean, if 10-15 orks reaches a 5 man squad, it COULD be lethal...Unless GK have 2-3 attacks a piece in which case... Ork mobs are going to suffer... Plus the GK could fire their Storm-bolters and crush those remaining... So... I'm not too sure. Though the Dreadnought does scream Psycannon of DOOM!!!

Currently GKs have 2 base attacks with True Grit and i don't see them losing that.


i really doubt Dreds will begin to carry 12 shot Psycannons, especially not if the weapon is AP3 like the Rumors suggest. 6 shot maybe, that or just a TL, 3 shot psycannon.

Yeah I thought about that. Even funnier when you snipe their painboy sitting in a deep/expensive Nob unit. Or an Apoth in a command squad. Or a Sang. Priest....

Seems like with upgrade characters the Vindicare might come into his own.

sourclams wrote:Vindicare sniping PK Nobz makes Boyz squads very, very, very, very poor counters to GK. A single successful Hit/dead result with the 2 wound shot and the Dreadnought just screams OM NOM NOM and rolls its face around until all the Boyz are dead.

In our current meta alot of the players employ transports and lots of heavy tanks, does the new GK codex already cover AT area?
My apologies if this is already answered.

As far as AT goes, I think GW will give us some good counters, with the Vindicare's Turbo-Penetrator round with a 4d6 to Penetrate...

I am not convinced we'll get good counters.

Basically we have the usual problem that even the "professional game designers" at GW haven't studied game design! They've just played a lot of 40K, and mostly, a lot of beer and pretzels "fun hobby" 40K.

So they're not even aware the basic principles of competitive game design. Even a good read of most of www.sirlin.net could get them to a decent amateur level of game design, but it's clear they've not done that, as we regularly see codices designed without failsafe counters as described here:

http://www.sirlin.net/articles/balancing-multiplayer-games-part-3-fairness.html

We wouldn't see the current mech preponderance if they had. So I'm not convinced the GKs will hold up, competitively. I'll be very pleased if they do -- I have a load of the metal minis that I will very happily turn into an army once I see the codex, if it's viable to do so -- but if not, I guess they can go back on eBay...