im2randomghgh wrote:
A battle-barge can never, ever be compared to the phalanx.

Eternal Crusader could possibly. Agree otherwise.


Oh, and I just read an interesting tidbit in the Deathwatch rulebook, page 310, about the Imperial Kill Ships. Turns out they just sneak past people's defences, fire nasty stuff at a planet and then slingshot away to safety using the planet's own gravitational field. Nasty stuff!

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Oh, and I just read an interesting tidbit in the Deathwatch rulebook, page 310, about the Imperial Kill Ships. Turns out they just sneak past people's defences, fire nasty stuff at a planet and then slingshot away to safety using the planet's own gravitational field. Nasty stuff!

Yeah, there's all sorts of ships that we don't have any actual information for from every faction.

Personally, though, I prefer the big rock approach to exterminatus. I know there' that silly post about Rocks not Being Free, but the adept writing it does not factor in the difference in long term cost, mainly that the planet will be productive again within the century, as opposed to say, reducing it permanently, or 10k years of radioactivity.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

what you say is true of Astropathic messages over the span of the galaxy, but within the small confines of a star system Astropathic comms will indeed be faster then laser projected comms.


and Tau ships are slower then IoM ships.

the slowest Imperial ships(Heavy Battlecruisers) move at the same speed as the average Tau ship. movement 15cm

the most powerful Tau ship only matches the speed of Imperial Cruisers and Grand Cruisers. movement 20cm

the Fastest Tau ship isn't worth 2 figs in a fire fight so it isn't worth anything. movement 25cm


all Tau ships are slower then Space Marine ships aside from a Battlebarges movement 20cm.

You may wish to consult the new FAQ.
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0Bw_dULEfC3rbYzUyNjQzZTAtMDZiMS00ZjRlLWJjNzMtYTE5YmNjZjdjODQ1&sort=name&layout=list&num=50

You might find things have changed.

All the ships from IA:3 have found their way into 'official' tournament play.

hmmmm,

thats a little better.


although those ships seem to have pitiful strengths on all their weapons batteries and lances.

no ship has more then 1 Ion cannon and Railgun batteries are pretty low compared to Imperial equivilants.

they seem to be relying heavily on Strike craft which is a shaky strategy at best.


if an imperial ship manages to close those Tau ships are going down fast as they simply can't withstand the firepower the Imperium can put out.

Imperial Launch bays could simply focus on keeping the Tau Bombers and Assault boats away with Fighters while attempting to close and kick face.

Grey Templar wrote:

hmmmm,

thats a little better.


although those ships seem to have pitiful strengths on all their weapons batteries and lances.

no ship has more then 1 Ion cannon and Railgun batteries are pretty low compared to Imperial equivilants.

they seem to be relying heavily on Strike craft which is a shaky strategy at best.


if an imperial ship manages to close those Tau ships are going down fast as they simply can't withstand the firepower the Imperium can put out.

Imperial Launch bays could simply focus on keeping the Tau Bombers and Assault boats away with Fighters while attempting to close and kick face.

The problem with that is that Manta's enjoy the same saving throws as thunderhawks, meaning on a 4+ they are not removed. Tau do not use assualt boats, IIRC.

And, again, the tracking rule lets Tau dodge the column shift for fireing over 30cm. So their WBs are much more powerful at range then their imperial equivalents. Further, their torpedoes count as guided AND can change speed. Meaning while IN torps fly off into deep space, Tau torps turn around and hit you. Instead of a area denial weapon, which is what In torps are good for, except at very close ranges, for the Tau they're an actual damage weapon.

Also: The Protector. Just.... the Protector. I'd suggest staying out of it's frontal arc, but it has 90 degree turns meaning it will dance around a comparable IN ship with ease. And throw the kitchen sink at them.

Well, it won't be dancing around my SM fleet.

EVERYONE has 90 degree turns (except the Battlebarge which has 45 degrees)

Grey Templar wrote:Well, it won't be dancing around my SM fleet.

EVERYONE has 90 degree turns (except the Battlebarge which has 45 degrees)

So which of the new options will your strike cruisers be taking? I recommend the extra point of shield, myself.

BaronIveagh wrote:

As of February's fluff, an Avenger-class Grand Cruiser is 8km long. A battleship is somewhat larger. A Mass Conveyer, which is a supposedly battleship sized freighter, is 16km long.

The Phalanx was described as a floating city in Mechanicum.

To give a frame of referrence, I live in T.O. so I will use it as an example.

46km is the width of it's water front.

43km is the it's east-west width.

And it was compared to a hive city, which we can assume is many times larger.

Grey Templar wrote:
what you say is true of Astropathic messages over the span of the galaxy, but within the small confines of a star system Astropathic comms will indeed be faster then laser projected comms.

Who's there to say that Tau don't have Astropath equivalents? They aren't psychic themselves, but many of their allied races are - most notably, Nicassar.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Phalanx was described as a floating city in Mechanicum.

To give a frame of referrence, I live in T.O. so I will use it as an example.

46km is the width of it's water front.

43km is the it's east-west width.

And it was compared to a hive city, which we can assume is many times larger.

LOL The Universe class mass conveyer is described as having whole cities glittering on it's flanks. It's 16km long.

Never minding that many hive cities are taller and deeper then they are wide, and they run in the 12km tall range...

At 43km, do you understand what flying something like that close enough to a planet to do anything would do to both the ship and the planet?

Backfire wrote:

Who's there to say that Tau don't have Astropath equivalents? They aren't psychic themselves, but many of their allied races are - most notably, Nicassar.

My theory is they use quantum entanglement. All the fun of FTL coms, without the possibility of being overheard.

BaronIveagh wrote:

At 43km, do you understand what flying something like that close enough to a planet to do anything would do to both the ship and the planet?

The Phalanx is so advanced it was described as landed flawlessly, gracefully, on Mars in Mechanicum.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:Well, it won't be dancing around my SM fleet.

EVERYONE has 90 degree turns (except the Battlebarge which has 45 degrees)

So which of the new options will your strike cruisers be taking? I recommend the extra point of shield, myself.

definitly the shield.


I'll definitly be getting myself one of those Venerable Battle Barges too.

now, which totally awsome ship do i want?

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Phalanx is so advanced it was described as landed flawlessly, gracefully, on Mars in Mechanicum.

Then it's not 43 km anything. At that size, it would have had the same effect on Mars as if it had suddenly gained another moon.

Gravity generators FTW baby

Grey Templar wrote:
definitly the shield.


I'll definitly be getting myself one of those Venerable Battle Barges too.

now, which totally awsome ship do i want?

A lot of people have been going with the Desolator class battleship. It's long range and faster speed coupled with it's extensive lances plug holes in SM fleets nicely. The only downside it has is weaker armor compared to other SM ships.

Grey Templar wrote:Gravity generators FTW baby

Actually Gravity Plating.

Grey Templar wrote:Gravity generators FTW baby

40k Imperial grav tech doesn't work that way, unless the entire exterior of the ship was coated in grav plating.

Since grav plating is one direction only.



When it was brought up in the course of discussion for FAQ2010 the statline for Phalanx was compared to a Fortress Monastery or the Raptorus Rex in IA:10

If i ever do a Sm fleet, I'll probably take the Nicor as my VBB. Something about 25cm, 10 hp +6 armor and 5 (!) shields. and decent firepower.

I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The Phalanx is so advanced it was described as landed flawlessly, gracefully, on Mars in Mechanicum.

Then it's not 43 km anything. At that size, it would have had the same effect on Mars as if it had suddenly gained another moon.

The point is that it had such advanced (and forgotten) technology that it was able to keep the Martian atmosphere stable while it landed.

Read the beginning of Mechanicus.

If the IoM learned how to mass-produce Phalanxes, it would win it's space battles A LOT more often.

Sorta like how it would always win titan fights if they had recovered the Castigator...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

Very Tau-ish tech

Grey Templar wrote:I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

Nope. Imperial ships supposedly can't land at all. Other then the hard way.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:I always was under the impression that the ship was able to project a sheath of null gravity to allow the ship to come to rest gently in close proximity to a planet.

Nope. Imperial ships supposedly can't land at all. Other then the hard way.

...Except the Phalanx. It was not created by Imperials. Rogal Dorn was just found with it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Read the beginning of Mechanicus.

I did. If we're thinking the same ship, that's not the Phalanx, since this is where Mars meets the Emperor, before he even creates the Primarchs. Since Rogal Dorn finds the Phalanx, and he's not born yet...

IIRC it was generally held that the Empy is holding up an (amusingly) Emperor class battleship to show off his psychic might.

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Read the beginning of Mechanicus.

I did. If we're thinking the same ship, that's not the Phalanx, since this is where Mars meets the Emperor, before he even creates the Primarchs. Since Rogal Dorn finds the Phalanx, and he's not born yet...

IIRC it was generally held that the Empy is holding up an (amusingly) Emperor class battleship to show off his psychic might.

This is not the Emperor's first meeting with the mechanicus-he is not creating the treaty of mars.

He is creating the rules to which the mechanicus now adhere.

And yes, I am fairly sure it was the Phalanx, considering it fit the description and it is well known the the Imperial Fists were the Emperor's bodyguard before the custodes. It is completely plausible, and what's more, it is probable.

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

im2randomghgh wrote:
This is not the Emperor's first meeting with the mechanicus-he is not creating the treaty of mars.

He is creating the rules to which the mechanicus now adhere.

And yes, I am fairly sure it was the Phalanx, considering it fit the description and it is well known the the Imperial Fists were the Emperor's bodyguard before the custodes. It is completely plausible, and what's more, it is probable.

Um.... the Custodes were the original genetically enhanced warriors that the Emperor created during the Unifcation Wars on Terra, before he ever created a single Space Marine. How would the Fists have guarded him before they existed?


Besides: the first words out of the Mechanicus knight meeting him are 'Who are you?' Has reply" I am the Emperor.' This would imply that the Admech had no frackking idea who this guy was and this was a first meeting.

BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
This is not the Emperor's first meeting with the mechanicus-he is not creating the treaty of mars.

He is creating the rules to which the mechanicus now adhere.

And yes, I am fairly sure it was the Phalanx, considering it fit the description and it is well known the the Imperial Fists were the Emperor's bodyguard before the custodes. It is completely plausible, and what's more, it is probable.

Um.... the Custodes were the original genetically enhanced warriors that the Emperor created during the Unifcation Wars on Terra, before he ever created a single Space Marine. How would the Fists have guarded him before they existed?


Besides: the first words out of the Mechanicus knight meeting him are 'Who are you?' Has reply" I am the Emperor.' This would imply that the Admech had no frackking idea who this guy was and this was a first meeting.

A knight pilot asks who he is, therefore he has never spoken to any AdMech ever? Odd reasoning...

Wiki Quote: Part of the Imperial Fists' duties during the Great Crusade were to function as the Emperor's "personal praetorians", accompanying him everywhere. The Imperial Fists were usually used to strike a decisive blow against the enemies he confronted during that time. The role of the Emperor's bodyguard since he was mortally wounded during the Horus Heresy and interred within the Golden Throne at the heart of the Imperial Palace on Terra has been entirely taken over by the Adeptus Custodes.

Taken Over by the custodes. The Fists were his preferred legions, his praetorians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, Rogal Dorn gifted it to the Emperor, so the fists weren't necessarily present on Mars.

Also, you called it a wedge, but it is spherical.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Phalanx

It says that it is as large/complex as a Craftworld

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.

"For atmosphere air-combat" the Manta doesn't win anything. It's used as a ground attack aircraft, not a dogfighter. It can defend itself against Interceptors, but there's a reason the Tau pulled an entire air wing to cover the Mantas they deployed.

What did they deploy the Mantas against again? Oh. Right...Warhounds.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, Rogal Dorn gifted it to the Emperor, so the fists weren't necessarily present on Mars.

Also, you called it a wedge, but it is spherical.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Phalanx

It says that it is as large/complex as a Craftworld

If you're using Wikia as a source, you need to lay off the sauce. They're even worse then Lexicanum. At least Lexicanum stays within fluff. Wikia doesn't even do that. Go read the actual books.

"The custodes were the product of an older, formative process, a process, some said, that had been refined and simplified to produce the Astartes en masse. Generally, custodes were larger and more powerful than Astartes, but the differences were only noticeably significant in a few specific cases. No one would be foolish enough to predict the outcome of a contest between an Astartes and a custodes." -Blood Games

"‘The primarch came up to Amon face to face. They were the tallest beings in the room." - Blood Games (A quick comparison between Rogal Dorn and an Adeptus Custodes)

The Custodes also appear in the Last Church, where the Emperor talks about how he's working on creating the Astartes.



The Manta is actually quit resilient on it's own, as a space bomber.

BaronIveagh wrote:The Manta is actually quite resilient on its own, as a space bomber.

It's resilient against most forms of surface-to-air defenses, but just like a Thunderhawk (which is the closest modern Imperial equivalent to the Manta. The Stormbird which was around during the Horus Heresy transported the same amount as the Manta is a better match, but was phased out of service during the closing days of the Great Crusade) Mantas can be brought down if they're not properly protected or exposed for too long in a combat zone.

Kanluwen wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:The Manta is actually quite resilient on its own, as a space bomber.

It's resilient against most forms of surface-to-air defenses, but just like a Thunderhawk (which is the closest modern Imperial equivalent to the Manta. The Stormbird which was around during the Horus Heresy transported the same amount as the Manta is a better match, but was phased out of service during the closing days of the Great Crusade) Mantas can be brought down if they're not properly protected or exposed for too long in a combat zone.

Didn't say they were invincible, just said they were resilient. As in they have the 'Resilient' special rule? Hello? PUN?

They may be resiliant, but they are slow and ponderous for a Space Craft.


Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.



It seems odd that the Tau, which in the Table top game have fast transports, are fairly slow in space.

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.






IIRC: wasn't there a Tigershark variant that also was used as a Titan Killer?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.

Annnnnd?

The Thunderhawk is, as it stands, a step down in size from its predecessor, the Stormbird. The Stormbird was the size of a Manta and carried an entire Company's worth of Astartes(This was mentioned first in "False Gods" and now most recently in "The First Heretic") --and had enough room for fully stocked armouries to be housed within.

Bigger is not always better. The Tau are just starting to realize this in regards to the Manta.

IIRC: wasn't there a Tigershark variant that also was used as a Titan Killer?

Yep, and it was only deployed twice.

Once again--against Warhound Titans.
The Tigershark AX 1-0 mounts the same Rail Guns as the Manta. Theoretically this was because the Tau realized that having to pull entire air wings to cover one craft that is a ponderous target is a bad thing.

Kanluwen wrote:
Annnnnd?

The Thunderhawk is, as it stands, a step down in size from its predecessor, the Stormbird. The Stormbird was the size of a Manta and carried an entire Company's worth of Astartes(This was mentioned first in "False Gods" and now most recently in "The First Heretic") --and had enough room for fully stocked armouries to be housed within.

They're also mentioned in Horus Rising and Legion of One. However, they also seemed to have serious problems, having originally been designed as atmospheric transports during the unification wars on Terra. The craft had a folding wing system, which reduces the amount of stress it could take in a turn, making it unwieldy AND lightly armored. They were being phased out at the end of the Crusade by thunderhawks for these reasons.

Kanluwen wrote:

Bigger is not always better. The Tau are just starting to realize this in regards to the Manta.

It's designed to be an anti-starship strike craft (which it excels at) not to slug it out with titans. The landing craft variant is designed for quick in and out missions where there is a hot LZ, as orcas are somewhat fragile.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Wiki Quote: Part of the Imperial Fists' duties during the Great Crusade were to function as the Emperor's "personal praetorians", accompanying him everywhere. The Imperial Fists were usually used to strike a decisive blow against the enemies he confronted during that time. The role of the Emperor's bodyguard since he was mortally wounded during the Horus Heresy and interred within the Golden Throne at the heart of the Imperial Palace on Terra has been entirely taken over by the Adeptus Custodes.

Taken Over by the custodes. The Fists were his preferred legions, his praetorians.

Lexicanum, with actual references to what they base the information on, as opposed to the "superior" Wikia wrote:The Adeptus Custodes were known originally as the Legio Custodes. The original Custodians were the first genetically and psychologically altered warriors created by the Emperor during the Terran Unification Wars. They served as the Emperor's personal bodyguard. The genetic enhancement that forms the Custodes is different from and predates that developed to create Space Marines

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Annnnnd?

The Thunderhawk is, as it stands, a step down in size from its predecessor, the Stormbird. The Stormbird was the size of a Manta and carried an entire Company's worth of Astartes(This was mentioned first in "False Gods" and now most recently in "The First Heretic") --and had enough room for fully stocked armouries to be housed within.

They're also mentioned in Horus Rising and Legion of One. However, they also seemed to have serious problems, having originally been designed as atmospheric transports during the unification wars on Terra. The craft had a folding wing system, which reduces the amount of stress it could take in a turn, making it unwieldy AND lightly armored. They were being phased out at the end of the Crusade by thunderhawks for these reasons.

Kanluwen wrote:

Bigger is not always better. The Tau are just starting to realize this in regards to the Manta.

It's designed to be an anti-starship strike craft (which it excels at) not to slug it out with titans. The landing craft variant is designed for quick in and out missions where there is a hot LZ, as orcas are somewhat fragile.

Actually, Stormbirds were mostly phased out because the designs were lost.

the Thunderhawk STC was found to be a suitible replacement for the Legion's slowely dwindiling supply of Stormbirds.


and of course, after the Legions were broken up, Space marines no longer needed a craft capable of dropping an entire company in one go. 3 Thunderhawks are much faster and can do the same work.

Grey Templar wrote:
Actually, Stormbirds were mostly phased out because the designs were lost.

the Thunderhawk STC was found to be a suitible replacement for the Legion's slowely dwindiling supply of Stormbirds.


and of course, after the Legions were broken up, Space marines no longer needed a craft capable of dropping an entire company in one go. 3 Thunderhawks are much faster and can do the same work.

Um... maybe I missed something, but they were being manufactured on Terra by the Yndonesic Bloc, and were being phased out before the Heresy, so how would the designs have been lost?

I have never heard about them stopping production because they weren't adaqate for the Legions.


also the fact they were still being used extensivly during and after the Heresy supports that they weren't being deliberatly phased out.

Grey Templar wrote:I have never heard about them stopping production because they weren't adaqate for the Legions.


also the fact they were still being used extensively during and after the Heresy supports that they weren't being deliberately phased out.

Because several of the legions are using them for drops already at the beginning of the Heresy. Both Mechanicum and Flight of the Eisenstein mention that certain marks of equipment are being phased out (including the Eisenstein itself in favor of the 'new' Sword class [meaning the Eisenstein is most likely a Havok class frigate, though this is never stated]). Since some legions are still using the Stormbird, and some are using the Thunderhawk, and the Stormbird is noted as the older pattern, either their gear is different due to legion preference or they're being phased out. Since two of the novels mention that some equipment is being phased out for various reasons, and a obvious flaw is present in the Stormbird...

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.

"For atmosphere air-combat" the Manta doesn't win anything. It's used as a ground attack aircraft, not a dogfighter. It can defend itself against Interceptors, but there's a reason the Tau pulled an entire air wing to cover the Mantas they deployed.

What did they deploy the Mantas against again? Oh. Right...Warhounds.

...It has 16 chainguns...anything coming near would be annihilated.

It has A LOT more firepower/structure points than a warhound. It costs more than a reaver (points AND money)

The reason they provide support is that they are such a valuable asset. It is comparable to how titans are accompanied by skitarii.

And also, Mantas are NOT comparable to Thunderhawks. They are 6x larger. 6. x. larger.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:either way, the Tau don't have Air Superiority.

In campaigns like Taros, to where both sides had to transport their aerial assets, air battles were fairly evenly matched. Invading a major Tau world, one can expect to meet whole different level of air capability and defence systems.

Actually, they weren't.

Once the Imperial Navy was on the ground, there was a timelapse between the time they deployed and the time they were transported down. The Navy had to build their own airbases, etc since they were in Tau hands.

That's also not mentioning that R'myr hit the airfields while they were being built, giving his forces control of the sky for quite awhile.

For in-atmosphere air-combat, the Manta wins. It is a flying fortress that is a titan equivalent. Basically a flying warlord.

"For atmosphere air-combat" the Manta doesn't win anything. It's used as a ground attack aircraft, not a dogfighter. It can defend itself against Interceptors, but there's a reason the Tau pulled an entire air wing to cover the Mantas they deployed.

What did they deploy the Mantas against again? Oh. Right...Warhounds.

...It has 16 chainguns...anything coming near would be annihilated.

It has 16 "Drone-Controlled Long Barrelled Burst Cannons".

It has A LOT more firepower/structure points than a warhound.

I would hope so, since it's supposed to be the Tau's support craft for assaulting enemy vessels.

It costs more than a Reaver (points AND money)

And? A Stormtrooper costs more than a Veteran Guardsman--it doesn't mean they're a better choice.

The reason they are provided support is that they are such a valuable asset. It is comparable to how titans are accompanied by skitarii.

The "reason they are provided support" is because they're gigantic wallowing targets that could be brought down by concentrated fire if not suppressed.

And also, Mantas are NOT comparable to Thunderhawks. They are 6x larger. 6. x. larger.

Again: so what?

Size does not make something automatically superior.
The Mantas, while being heavily armed (relatively. The armament they have is a bit of an eclectic mix, and all geared towards dealing with capital ships or large targets that can't move fast like Imperial and Ork Titans) and armoured, are really not equipped to defend themselves against things like the Thunderbolt or Lightning if they were to be launched in the size of a squadron or larger. Heck, a Thunderhawk could take down a Manta in a one-v-one situation due to the speed advantage a Thunderhawk has over the Manta.

Those long-barreled burst cannons are notably short ranged for an aerospace craft.

The ion cannons and missile pods are the craft's only real hope against other aircraft.

yeah, its main armament of Heavy Railguns is only useful against slow targets its can draw a bead on. like Titans and Space vessels.

and its "Hope against other Aircraft" are manned by BS2 drones

the Manta is also primarly a surface shuttle to transport large quantities of troops down to the surface of a planet. once there it can provide some support as a gunship.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, its main armament of Heavy Railguns is only useful against slow targets its can draw a bead on. like Titans and Space vessels.

and its "Hope against other Aircraft" are manned by BS2 drones

the Manta is also primarly a surface shuttle to transport large quantities of troops down to the surface of a planet. once there it can provide some support as a gunship.

A ship on a course for a titan that then tears it apart isn't something to scoff at.

A manta is about as deadly as it gets besides an Emperor class titan on the battlefield. The fact it can carry a bunch of suits and troops is equally brutal.

Also, the fact that it is no longer the main hunter for titans is a notable piece to keep in mind. It means that if the Tau run into an Emperor Class Titan they will build a counter for the following battle. The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs, they fight and learn with each battle. The handful they have been in have taught them lessons they take to heart, unlike their enemies that constantly underestimate them only to be punished for it later. A victory today could spell one or more defeats down the road, which is the threat the Tau pose.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

IvanTih wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

I don't think it's really stagnation, but that they're advancing at a glacial pace to begin with. In six thousand years they went from where we were three thousand years ago to where we'll be within the next half century (minus the magical space travel techs), and in centuries of warfare have progressed less in strategic terms than we did during vietnam alone. For the Imperium, stagnation makes sense: they're so incomprehensibly vast that any new technology couldn't be deployed on a large scale, their standard equipment is effectively the most ideal design for its respective roles, and their military leadership has literally seen every conceivable military operation from both sides at one point or another; there's really nowhere for them to go from there.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races. Of course, the Imperium is currently at the verge of breaking appart, with elements of HiveFleet Leviathan approaching ( while other parts of the Hivefleet seem to eviscerate the orkempire of Oktarious far quicker than expected ), splinters of Kraken still ravaging the eastern fringe, the loss of thousands of systems to rebellion and Daemonic invasion within a single year ( Night of a Thousand Rebellions and the Great Awakening ), Thraka creating the perhaps biggest WHAAGH since Ulanor ( sure, atm only Armageddon and the surounding systems are under siege, but defeat there might doom many other, much less well defended worlds ) and the 13. Black Crusade still going strong ( which forces the already beleaguered Imperium to strip troops from worlds on the other side of the galaxy... ) the Imperium of Man might actually be unable ( -> the resources do of course exist, but they are required to keep the Imperium together ) to start a long and resource-intensive crusade against a relatively minor thread ( one which has yet to conquer a single truly important world within the Imperium ).

KingDeath wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

I should have added that. They could easily put together the resources but the Tau are a very minor threat in the grand scale of things. They could always put together a lot of different squads of Marines, raise new regiments, but what would be the point?

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

And yet they only have a few craftworlds and a bunch of Exodite worlds left, nothing too impressive on the galactic scale.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Melissia wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau aren't some pushover scrubs

Actually... yeah... they kinda are. The only reason they yet live is plot armor...

Everyone gets their fair share of plot armor.

So yeah, you could call them scrubs, but what does that make the Imperium for losing conflicts against them?

Actually, yes. Plot Armour is the biggest reason the Tau have defeated the Imperium the number of times that they have. I agree that every race has Plot Armour, but Tau have had considerably more.


If the Imperium wanted to, they could EASILY put together the forces to wipe out the Tau, to think otherwise would ignorant.

They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

I want what you're already smoking because that's not what he said. He said 'dozens of other races'. Not the major ones with a codex.

KingDeath wrote:They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

The population of the Craftworlders works out to better than half that of the Guard, and they make a point of keeping the Craftworlds away from anywhere they might be found.

Of course, the Imperium is currently at the verge of breaking appart, with elements of HiveFleet Leviathan approaching ( while other parts of the Hivefleet seem to eviscerate the orkempire of Oktarious far quicker than expected ), splinters of Kraken still ravaging the eastern fringe,

The entirety of the damage Tyranids have managed works out to less than .02% of the Imperium, and they've been repeatedly shown to completely collapse into nigh-harmless fragments if the fleet itself is crippled, only being able to threaten anything more dangerous than a cardboard cutout after decades of being ignored.

the 13. Black Crusade still going strong ( which forces the already beleaguered Imperium to strip troops from worlds on the other side of the galaxy... )

The entirety of the Traitor legions works out to significantly less than the loyalists, and the loyalists are so few in number as to be all but irrelevant outside Matt Ward's incoherent ramblings.

the Imperium of Man might actually be unable ( -> the resources do of course exist, but they are required to keep the Imperium together ) to start a long and resource-intensive crusade against a relatively minor thread ( one which has yet to conquer a single truly important world within the Imperium ).

The whole of the Tau military works out to around one ten thousandth that of the Imperium. They're even more harmless than the Tyranids, as evidenced by the trouble they're having dealing with the aforementioned nigh-harmless fragments thereof.

iproxtaco wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
They could do the same with the Eldar and dozens of other races.

Hand me the weed, I want some too. Of the major races in the 40k Universe (and by major I count those with a Codex of their own), the only one the Imperium could feasibly destroy without losing the rest of the galaxy is the Tau.

I want what you're already smoking because that's not what he said. He said 'dozens of other races'. Not the major ones with a codex.

Better?

This is all useless. The IoM's problem isn't the Tau, it's Chaos first and everyone else except the Tau second.

If the BT's are so under-employed they have the time to set up a campaign against the Tau, they should pull their thumbs out of their bums and invade the Eye of Terror.

Once Chaos has been crushed, a new Golden Age will allow the IoM to quickly deal with the Necron, Tyranid and Ork threats. Then conquer the Eldar, invade the Webway and obliterate the Dark Eldar.

Who's left after all that is done?

Right, the Imperium COULD wipe out other races that don't have a codex sure. You know, races that are actually competent and pose a threat but don't have enough plot armor to get a codex?

All the while as I'm reading all of this debating I was starting to wonder what GW was going to do to the Tau back story in the next Codex. Being that the last book was all about them making the Empire bigger what is the likelihood that GW might say the Empire got even bigger in the next book. In galactic terms it would probably mean the Tau capturing 5 new worlds (peanuts in the grand scheme of things.) Unless they go and do something totally absurd like saying the Empire doubled or tripled in size. (very unlikely) but there have been stranger things to happen.

IvanTih wrote:

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

Not true, as we see in IA:3. The older Tau ships from the period of Initial Imperial contact are slowly being replaced by newer models (IA:3 and BFG FAQ2010)

Their basic infantry weapons have not really changed, but plasma weapons such as the pulse rifle are generally acknowledged as some of the most powerful mass produced infantry arms in 40k (in fluff and the 40k RPGs, anyway). They're quite comparable to bolters, which they have superior range compared to. Further, new marks of power armor come into existence all the time.

Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.

The Imperium isn't as technologically stale as the internet makes it out to be.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.

Hellfire Rounds, Errant Armour etc. says that you're wrong about the Imperial Technology. While it may be at a standstill within certain areas, it's far from it in other.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.

Hellfire Rounds, Errant Armour etc. says that you're wrong about the Imperial Technology. While it may be at a standstill within certain areas, it's far from it in other.

True.

But the problem with Imperial advancements, is that they have to jump through hurdles to not only innovate but also issue the equipment.

The Tau fight the humans a handful of times and realize they need new technology now. They build XV9s to put down terminators and transports, they design new more lethal stealth suits, they field test rail rifles to punch holes through power armor, then they create new retro-fitted aircraft to put down the titans they have encountered.

The Tau use the IoM as a testing ground. If the Imperium views them as a lesser threat then thats fine for the high ranking generals in safe locations. The same cannot be said for the regiments wiped out in places like Taros and the DG.

Tau are content with being viewed as a minor threat, it allows them to move about freely and develope new weapons against an enemy that is too bogged down to ever effectively mobilize anything capable of wiping them out.

Chamleoneyes wrote:All the while as I'm reading all of this debating I was starting to wonder what GW was going to do to the Tau back story in the next Codex. Being that the last book was all about them making the Empire bigger what is the likelihood that GW might say the Empire got even bigger in the next book. In galactic terms it would probably mean the Tau capturing 5 new worlds (peanuts in the grand scheme of things.) Unless they go and do something totally absurd like saying the Empire doubled or tripled in size. (very unlikely) but there have been stranger things to happen.

In the Cain novels, since they're all written 'after' the end of M41, occasional dribbles imply that the boarder expands somewhat after the end of the millenium, possibly with full Inquisitorial co-operation.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Hellfire Rounds, Errant Armour etc. says that you're wrong about the Imperial Technology. While it may be at a standstill within certain areas, it's far from it in other.

Errant Armor: Retconned to date back to the years following the Horus Heresy (IA:10)

Hellfire Rounds: If loading a new poison into an STC toxic boltgun round is 'advancement' then the Assassin Temples are the greatest innovators in the Imperium.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.

Hellfire Rounds, Errant Armour etc. says that you're wrong about the Imperial Technology. While it may be at a standstill within certain areas, it's far from it in other.

True.

But the problem with Imperial advancements, is that they have to jump through hurdles to not only innovate but also issue the equipment.

The Tau fight the humans a handful of times and realize they need new technology now. They build XV9s to put down terminators and transports, they design new more lethal stealth suits, they field test rail rifles to punch holes through power armor, then they create new retro-fitted aircraft to put down the titans they have encountered.

The Tau use the IoM as a testing ground. If the Imperium views them as a lesser threat then thats fine for the high ranking generals in safe locations. The same cannot be said for the regiments wiped out in places like Taros and the DG.

Tau are content with being viewed as a minor threat, it allows them to move about freely and develope new weapons against an enemy that is too bogged down to ever effectively mobilize anything capable of wiping them out.

I agree, the Imperium could be so much more advanced, but they have the, tbh, more trouble that they're worth, Mechanicum, to go through to advance anything hence the relative stagnation.

That's one huge advantage the Tau have, extremely fast adaptation. They don't have the military might or tactical ability to take on the full might the Imperium however.

The Tau should be content as being viewed as such a small threat. If the Imperium sees them as a force that could invade or start swaying a large number of worlds, they WILL raise the forces required. Hundreds of guard regiments and hundreds of Titans. Huge fleets and thousands of Space Marines.

iproxtaco wrote:

I agree, the Imperium could be so much more advanced, but they have the, tbh, more trouble that they're worth, Mechanicum, to go through to advance anything hence the relative stagnation.

That's one huge advantage the Tau have, extremely fast adaptation. They don't have the military might or tactical ability to take on the full might the Imperium however.

The Tau should be content as being viewed as such a small threat. If the Imperium sees them as a force that could invade or start swaying a large number of worlds, they WILL raise the forces required. Hundreds of guard regiments and hundreds of Titans. Huge fleets and thousands of Space Marines.

The problem is even the Imperium has limits, though they like to pretend they don't. Between the Tyranid Wars, The 13th Black Crusade, The various Ork Waaaghs, even relatively small wars, such as the Jericho Reach Crusade drain Imperial resources needed elsewhere (indeed, Jericho Reach could be one of the reasons that the Bastion Fleet at Scarus sector was able to send so little help to Cadia).

Frankly, i think an attempt at a full on invasion of the Tau empire might turn into the straw the broke the camels back.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Errant Armor: Retconned to date back to the years following the Horus Heresy (IA:10)

Wait, really? Holy crap they REALLY don't have any idea what they're talking about.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Hellfire Rounds: If loading a new poison into an STC toxic boltgun round is 'advancement' then the Assassin Temples are the greatest innovators in the Imperium.

Consider how advanced a toxin has to be to work that good against the Tyranids. It's not so much the rounds as the poison itself that's the invention.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Wait, really? Holy crap they REALLY don't have any idea what they're talking about.

Well, actually it makes a sort sort of sense, considering that the Aquila pattern was one the last designed during the Heresy and the Errant is just a variant of it with a marginal improvement to armor coverage in the form of a metal collar and some reinforcements, and a slightly better cooling system for the power plant.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Consider how advanced a toxin has to be to work that good against the Tyranids. It's not so much the rounds as the poison itself that's the invention.

I dunno about that. The Mechanicus has been experimenting with mutagens for millennia on behalf of the inquisition to understand mutation. I would not be surprised if this was just a combination of two existing weapons. Basically it just injects them with a drug to give them super cancer. This has apparently been done for years by certain hereteks via the more traditional needler. It's just that they tested different known poisons on the nids till they figured out which one worked best.

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

I agree, the Imperium could be so much more advanced, but they have the, tbh, more trouble that they're worth, Mechanicum, to go through to advance anything hence the relative stagnation.

That's one huge advantage the Tau have, extremely fast adaptation. They don't have the military might or tactical ability to take on the full might the Imperium however.

The Tau should be content as being viewed as such a small threat. If the Imperium sees them as a force that could invade or start swaying a large number of worlds, they WILL raise the forces required. Hundreds of guard regiments and hundreds of Titans. Huge fleets and thousands of Space Marines.

The problem is even the Imperium has limits, though they like to pretend they don't. Between the Tyranid Wars, The 13th Black Crusade, The various Ork Waaaghs, even relatively small wars, such as the Jericho Reach Crusade drain Imperial resources needed elsewhere (indeed, Jericho Reach could be one of the reasons that the Bastion Fleet at Scarus sector was able to send so little help to Cadia).

Frankly, i think an attempt at a full on invasion of the Tau empire might turn into the straw the broke the camels back.

Not all their forces are engaged all the time, I'm sure that they could gather more than sufficient forces to conquer the Tau from regiments and Chapters who are idle, or just raise new regiments. It would take quite a while to gather them, but I agree that they would probably be more needed in more important conflicts like you mentioned. If the Tau become a greater threat, they'll just be added to the list of conflicts. I don't think they're that close to breaking point though.

The Imperium definitely isn't. In hive city worlds, even if they only tithed their population enough to prevent growth, they'd end up with hundreds of millions every year, if not billions.

Melissia wrote:The Imperium definitely isn't. In hive city worlds, even if they only tithed their population enough to prevent growth, they'd end up with hundreds of millions every year, if not billions.

I agree, the Imperium is besieged and is often struggling, but they could easily enough just raise new Guard to deal with threats like the Tau.

The Imperium is failing, but not as badly or as fast as people make them out to be.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:
Thunderbolts and Thunderhawks(with the Turbo-laser) will run circles around them.

That's fine. They have guns in just about every direction, if you haven't noticed.

Considering that in a little bit more than 200 years they went from no space ships to the ones in BFG:A, and a bit longer to the ones at Taros that could rival Imperial technology, I suspect by the time the Imperium gets around to it, they're going to find the little blue buggers are flying things to rival necrons.

Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.

Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.

Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.

I don't think it's really stagnation, but that they're advancing at a glacial pace to begin with. In six thousand years they went from where we were three thousand years ago to where we'll be within the next half century (minus the magical space travel techs), and in centuries of warfare have progressed less in strategic terms than we did during vietnam alone. For the Imperium, stagnation makes sense: they're so incomprehensibly vast that any new technology couldn't be deployed on a large scale, their standard equipment is effectively the most ideal design for its respective roles, and their military leadership has literally seen every conceivable military operation from both sides at one point or another; there's really nowhere for them to go from there.

Actually, Tau were in their cave-age 6000 years ago and are at a technoloical level we may never reach. The earliest human cave-people were dated to approx. 2.2 million years ago.

And that's assuming a 1% population growth rate. In truth it'd probably be three times that high. And not only could the Imperium provide that many soldiers it could also EQUIP that many with standardized equipment due to the powerful industrial capacity the Imperium has.

In but a year, the Imperium could easily raise (including training and equipment) more soldiers than there are Tau-- not fire warriors, the entire TAU RACE-- without necessarily stretching themselves thin. The Imperium could outnumber the Tau a hundred or even a thousand to one in every battle even with casualties put in place, if they deemed the Tau a great enough threat.

They aren't. .

[quote=Kanluwen
1. It has 16 "Drone-Controlled Long Barrelled Burst Cannons".

2.The "reason they are provided support" is because they're gigantic wallowing targets that could be brought down by concentrated fire if not suppressed.

3.Size does not make something automatically superior.
The Mantas, while being heavily armed (relatively. The armament they have is a bit of an eclectic mix, and all geared towards dealing with capital ships or large targets that can't move fast like Imperial and Ork Titans) and armoured, are really not equipped to defend themselves against things like the Thunderbolt or Lightning if they were to be launched in the size of a squadron or larger. Heck, a Thunderhawk could take down a Manta in a one-v-one situation due to the speed advantage a Thunderhawk has over the Manta.

im2randomghgh wrote:That's 48 str5 shots a turn

... eeexcept that they're so short ranged that they won't be able to hit any other craft. Tanks have longer ranged weapons. INFANTRY have longer ranged weapons.

BaronIveagh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

I agree, the Imperium could be so much more advanced, but they have the, tbh, more trouble that they're worth, Mechanicum, to go through to advance anything hence the relative stagnation.

That's one huge advantage the Tau have, extremely fast adaptation. They don't have the military might or tactical ability to take on the full might the Imperium however.

The Tau should be content as being viewed as such a small threat. If the Imperium sees them as a force that could invade or start swaying a large number of worlds, they WILL raise the forces required. Hundreds of guard regiments and hundreds of Titans. Huge fleets and thousands of Space Marines.

The problem is even the Imperium has limits, though they like to pretend they don't. Between the Tyranid Wars, The 13th Black Crusade, The various Ork Waaaghs, even relatively small wars, such as the Jericho Reach Crusade drain Imperial resources needed elsewhere (indeed, Jericho Reach could be one of the reasons that the Bastion Fleet at Scarus sector was able to send so little help to Cadia).

Frankly, i think an attempt at a full on invasion of the Tau empire might turn into the straw the broke the camels back.

+1 for the analogy!

But yes, I agree completely. Consider it this way: the Tau have just over 100 planets, which is 1:10,000 of the IoM, except that between the air caste, fire caste, and ethereal caste more than 50% of their population fights battles, and that's not including the battlefield technicians of the earth caste, and their numberless drones, and the auxilliaries. Everthing accounted for, about 75-80% of the inhabitants of the Tau Empire see the battlefield for one reason or another. Nothing even vaguely close to that percentage for the IoM. The IoM still has them outnumbered, but it would probably mean about 1:5000th of their resources went to it, instead of 1:10,000th. Do you think the IoM can afford to lose 1:5000th of it's military might?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:That's 48 str5 shots a turn

... eeexcept that they're so short ranged that they won't be able to hit any other craft. Tanks have longer ranged weapons. INFANTRY have longer ranged weapons.

What it means is that you're not getting close to it without having your testes ripped off. Also considering it's hull is almost a metre long, it can cover most of the table with it's BCs alone.

im2randomghgh wrote:
What it means is that you're not getting close to it without having your testes ripped off. Also considering it's hull is almost a metre long, it can cover most of the table with it's BCs alone.

The size is also what turns it into a "SHOOT ME! PLEASE!" neon sign with sound effects. Every single AA weapon is going to go into that flyer and there's nothing you can do about it.

Melissia wrote:And that's assuming a 1% population growth rate. In truth it'd probably be three times that high. And not only could the Imperium provide that many soldiers it could also EQUIP that many with standardized equipment due to the powerful industrial capacity the Imperium has.

In but a year, the Imperium could easily raise (including training and equipment) more soldiers than there are Tau-- not fire warriors, the entire TAU RACE-- without necessarily stretching themselves thin. The Imperium could outnumber the Tau a hundred or even a thousand to one in every battle even with casualties put in place, if they deemed the Tau a great enough threat.

They aren't. .

That's a very nice idea. The problem is twofold:

First, the largest mobilization of the Imperium since the Great Crusade, the Macharian Crusade, was held up on Adrantis Five for two years, until Macharius gave up and smashed a comet into the planet. The Adranti were miniscule compared to the Tau, who are every bit as advanced.

Two, the light of the Astronomicon is dimming. As of 999 it was no longer visible as far away as Ultima Macharia. Which is closer to Terra then the Tau Empire is. Beyond the Emperor's light, Imperial warp travel is limited to jumps of no more then 5 LY under ideal circumstances, which, again, the gulf is very much not.

While I'm sure they'd find someone to try it, jumping into a warp storm outside the Astronomicon's glow does similar things to one's survival odds as joining the guard during a plague zombie outbreak when the Inquisition is already in orbit with cyclonic torpedoes.

And yet, the Tau weren't able to hold as well as the Adranti despite being larger...

im2randomghgh wrote:[quote=Kanluwen
1. It has 16 "Drone-Controlled Long Barrelled Burst Cannons".

2.The "reason they are provided support" is because they're gigantic wallowing targets that could be brought down by concentrated fire if not suppressed.

3.Size does not make something automatically superior.
The Mantas, while being heavily armed (relatively. The armament they have is a bit of an eclectic mix, and all geared towards dealing with capital ships or large targets that can't move fast like Imperial and Ork Titans) and armoured, are really not equipped to defend themselves against things like the Thunderbolt or Lightning if they were to be launched in the size of a squadron or larger. Heck, a Thunderhawk could take down a Manta in a one-v-one situation due to the speed advantage a Thunderhawk has over the Manta.

1. Exactly. 16 chainguns, except they fire pulse rounds. That's 48 str5 shots a turn, 18 str 7 shots, two str10 ap1 ordianance shots, 4 missile pods shots (I forget their strength) and 10 seeker-missile hits (str 8 large pie plate). Total: 82 hits it can inflict in a single turn. Up to 12 Large pie plates a turn. With ten structure points=it owns titans. Anything less than a warmonger would be out-classed completely, with well-equiped warlords being equal 1-on-1 but inferior against hordes.

2. ...Just like titans...

3. In the 41st millenium, it does. That's why they created titans. "mine's bigger" come to mind?
And no, a thunderhawk could not take down a manta 1-v-1 due to it's speed. That is like saying a warhound could beat an Imperator "because of it's speed". No, it couldn't. The only way a thunderhawk could destroy a manta is if it decided to crash into it.

As for the BS 2 drones, 48 BC shots.

Grey Templar wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:[quote=Kanluwen
1. It has 16 "Drone-Controlled Long Barrelled Burst Cannons".

2.The "reason they are provided support" is because they're gigantic wallowing targets that could be brought down by concentrated fire if not suppressed.

3.Size does not make something automatically superior.
The Mantas, while being heavily armed (relatively. The armament they have is a bit of an eclectic mix, and all geared towards dealing with capital ships or large targets that can't move fast like Imperial and Ork Titans) and armoured, are really not equipped to defend themselves against things like the Thunderbolt or Lightning if they were to be launched in the size of a squadron or larger. Heck, a Thunderhawk could take down a Manta in a one-v-one situation due to the speed advantage a Thunderhawk has over the Manta.

1. Exactly. 16 chainguns, except they fire pulse rounds. That's 48 str5 shots a turn, 18 str 7 shots, two str10 ap1 ordianance shots, 4 missile pods shots (I forget their strength) and 10 seeker-missile hits (str 8 large pie plate). Total: 82 hits it can inflict in a single turn. Up to 12 Large pie plates a turn. With ten structure points=it owns titans. Anything less than a warmonger would be out-classed completely, with well-equiped warlords being equal 1-on-1 but inferior against hordes.

2. ...Just like titans...

3. In the 41st millenium, it does. That's why they created titans. "mine's bigger" come to mind?
And no, a thunderhawk could not take down a manta 1-v-1 due to it's speed. That is like saying a warhound could beat an Imperator "because of it's speed". No, it couldn't. The only way a thunderhawk could destroy a manta is if it decided to crash into it.

As for the BS 2 drones, 48 BC shots.

Actually, Warhounds are Titan Stalkers.

they work in pairs to surround and take larger titans down with their Turbo-lasers. their speed and small size allows them to hide effectivly.

Imperators are extreamely rare so the point is moot.

I don't think there are more then a couple hundred in both Traitor and Imperial hands combined.

Grey Templar wrote:Imperators are extreamely rare so the point is moot.

I don't think there are more then a couple hundred in both Traitor and Imperial hands combined.

And? They rarely NEED to be deployed. They rarely CAN be deployed due to their size.

If you add all loyal and traitor Emperor titans of both kinds (imperator and Warmonger [I like Warmongers better]) you'll probably end up with a number something like 1000.

Anyways, the ENTIRE point is moot, since there are probably something like 10,000-25,000 titans in the entire Imperium of man (just loyalists).

If you think about it, it makes sense, since there are ~1,000,000 astartes and titans are considerably rarer...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Tau weren't able to hold as well as the Adranti despite being larger...

What do you mean, "weren't"? They haven't been destroyed...

Also, at Talos, they had a very, very small force which held off an Imperial force quite a few times it's size. Imperial retribution isn't all that scary

Hahaha whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

At Taros they did not have a "very, very small force". They had an unconfirmed number of Fire Caste(estimates are that it was the size of a full Hunter Cadre), an estimated 16,000 Kroot and accompanying Kroot subspecies, then the remnants of the Taros PDF and the Governor's household guard.

The First Taros Intervention consisted of a single Space Marine Company(the 2nd). 60 Tactical Marines, 20 Assault and Devastator Marines, 2 Dreadnoughts, 5 Terminators, an Apothecary, a Chaplain, and Captain Armaros.
They also had an assortment of vehicles(the most numerous being 10 Rhinos and 25 Drop Pods).
The Avenging Sons held for two days and the Tau finally had to pull out a Manta to remove them.
That doesn't seem like "Imperial retribution isn't all that scary" if the Tau had to pull a Manta to remove Astartes from dug-in positions.

The follow-up invasion included the Raptors Chapter "Strike Force Orelius". 3rd Company was a Chaplain, 60 Tacticals, 20 Assault/Devastators, 2 Dreads. 6th Company was a Captain, Chaplain, 100 Tacticals, 3 Dreadnoughts, and 8 Land Speeders. 10th Company was 10 Scouts.
The overall force was led by Captain Orelius, with a Codicer and 4 Apothecaries standing ready. Again, they also had a number of vehicles at their disposal. There was also a Company of Avenging Sons taking part.

The Guard forces that actually made it to the combat zone was the 17th Tallarn, 89th Tallarn, 331st Tallarn, 3rd Tallarn, 12th Tallarn Armoured, 23rd Elysian Drop, 11th Sarennian Assault Engineers, and 114th Cadian Shock Regiments. There was also the 2356th and 2378th Storm Trooper Companies. Two regiments(19th Krieg Armoured and 8th Brimlock Dragoons) never made it, and we never really heard anything about the Sarennian, the Elysians were only deployed for one specific battle, and there was a single Warhound Titan that was part of the invasion force.

Also, in a "do or die" situation, the Tau would likely use the assets it has kept more or less in reserve up until now-The demiurgs and Nicassar. Basically, people who make leviathans, and a species that is composed 100% of psykers more potent than Eldar.

Demiurg are not Squats, and they are not "the people who make Leviathans". The Nicassar can seemingly not deploy to the surface because of their physiology.

Basically they can field armies made equivalents of Imperial Guard sanctioned pskyers.

So which is it? A species that is composed 100% of Psykers more potent than Eldar or the equivalents of Imperial Guard Sanctioned Psykers?
There's a huge difference in the power scale here.

Kanluwen wrote:
At Taros they did not have a "very, very small force". They had an unconfirmed number of Fire Caste(estimates are that it was the size of a full Hunter Cadre), an estimated 16,000 Kroot and accompanying Kroot subspecies, then the remnants of the Taros PDF and the Governor's household guard.

A single Cadre is small. A Contingent is a grouping of three to six Cadres, and a Battle is a grouping of Contingents; and the Tau have committed a Battle to the field.
A Contingent is about the size of an Imperial Guard Regiment.

Nerivant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
At Taros they did not have a "very, very small force". They had an unconfirmed number of Fire Caste(estimates are that it was the size of a full Hunter Cadre), an estimated 16,000 Kroot and accompanying Kroot subspecies, then the remnants of the Taros PDF and the Governor's household guard.

A single Cadre is small. A Contingent is a grouping of three to six Cadres, and a Battle is a grouping of Contingents; and the Tau have committed a Battle to the field.
A Contingent is about the size of an Imperial Guard Regiment.

A single Cadre is small, but when that Fire Caste Cadre is supported by an Air Caste Cadre and 16k Kroot Warriors and the remnant of an entire planet's defense force it suddenly becomes bigger.

I should also add that I checked the wrong page. 267 says that it is a Contingent, 6 Hunter Cadres.

Estimation was: 6 Shas'el, 12 Shas'vre, 124 Shas'ui, 428 Shas'la, 179 Kor'vesa (749 Fire Caste and Drones). 14 Hammerheads, 15 Devilfish, 4 Sky Rays, 5 Piranhas, 10 Tetra, 60 Crisis Battlesuits, and 15 Broadside Battlesuits.

The Air Cadre was [b]two[/i] Mantas, 4 Tiger Sharks, and 10 Barracudas with 36 Air Caste personnel accompanying them.

Melissia wrote:And that's assuming a 1% population growth rate. In truth it'd probably be three times that high. And not only could the Imperium provide that many soldiers it could also EQUIP that many with standardized equipment due to the powerful industrial capacity the Imperium has.

In but a year, the Imperium could easily raise (including training and equipment) more soldiers than there are Tau-- not fire warriors, the entire TAU RACE-- without necessarily stretching themselves thin. The Imperium could outnumber the Tau a hundred or even a thousand to one in every battle even with casualties put in place, if they deemed the Tau a great enough threat.

They aren't. .

1.) That would be a logistical nightmare on the part of the attacker. Given the Imperial track record on such mobilizations, the only force deployed like that would be a conscript army. It would be utterly wiped out by the Tau. Their top tier commanders wiped out a splinter fleet without a single loss, routed a planetary WAAAGH, and have stalled out a entire crusade on a single world and stole a forge world's resource planet then utterly wiped the massive reclamation effort sent. You vastly underestimate their capacity to inflict face punches.

2.) Not only that, the true number of Tau forces isn't known. They could very well have a billion FWs garrisoned at the DG now. Nobody knows. All we know is they populate a very dense part of space with multiple races in an alliance. People like to assume they have a few hundred thousand here and there, but to wage planetary battles your military would need billions for waging wars on various continents on planets that are sometimes larger than earth.

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Tau weren't able to hold as well as the Adranti despite being larger...

How so? Rather then try and hold every colony, they retreated to a defensible position. And, it worked. For a year the Imperium was stalemated and then withdrew.

And interesting thing, by the way, you can't just jump willy-nilly through the warp, there are currents and routes to follow.

If, as Hoare's BL novels and IA:3 suggest, it was to fight off hive fleet behemoth, then...

the forces abandoning Tau space to go fight Behemoth at Ultramar never got there.


It's it's as Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Tau Empire state, then... Tau technology has roared ahead in the 20 years since the Crusade.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Tau weren't able to hold as well as the Adranti despite being larger...

What do you mean, "weren't"? They haven't been destroyed...

Also, at Talos, they had a very, very small force which held off an Imperial force quite a few times it's size. Imperial retribution isn't all that scary

Hahaha whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

At Taros they did not have a "very, very small force". They had an unconfirmed number of Fire Caste(estimates are that it was the size of a full Hunter Cadre), an estimated 16,000 Kroot and accompanying Kroot subspecies, then the remnants of the Taros PDF and the Governor's household guard.

The First Taros Intervention consisted of a single Space Marine Company(the 2nd). 60 Tactical Marines, 20 Assault and Devastator Marines, 2 Dreadnoughts, 5 Terminators, an Apothecary, a Chaplain, and Captain Armaros.
They also had an assortment of vehicles(the most numerous being 10 Rhinos and 25 Drop Pods).
The Avenging Sons held for two days and the Tau finally had to pull out a Manta to remove them.
That doesn't seem like "Imperial retribution isn't all that scary" if the Tau had to pull a Manta to remove Astartes from dug-in positions.

The follow-up invasion included the Raptors Chapter "Strike Force Orelius". 3rd Company was a Chaplain, 60 Tacticals, 20 Assault/Devastators, 2 Dreads. 6th Company was a Captain, Chaplain, 100 Tacticals, 3 Dreadnoughts, and 8 Land Speeders. 10th Company was 10 Scouts.
The overall force was led by Captain Orelius, with a Codicer and 4 Apothecaries standing ready. Again, they also had a number of vehicles at their disposal. There was also a Company of Avenging Sons taking part.

The Guard forces that actually made it to the combat zone was the 17th Tallarn, 89th Tallarn, 331st Tallarn, 3rd Tallarn, 12th Tallarn Armoured, 23rd Elysian Drop, 11th Sarennian Assault Engineers, and 114th Cadian Shock Regiments. There was also the 2356th and 2378th Storm Trooper Companies. Two regiments(19th Krieg Armoured and 8th Brimlock Dragoons) never made it, and we never really heard anything about the Sarennian, the Elysians were only deployed for one specific battle, and there was a single Warhound Titan that was part of the invasion force.

Also, in a "do or die" situation, the Tau would likely use the assets it has kept more or less in reserve up until now-The demiurgs and Nicassar. Basically, people who make leviathans, and a species that is composed 100% of psykers more potent than Eldar.

Demiurg are not Squats, and they are not "the people who make Leviathans". The Nicassar can seemingly not deploy to the surface because of their physiology.

Basically they can field armies made equivalents of Imperial Guard sanctioned pskyers.

So which is it? A species that is composed 100% of Psykers more potent than Eldar or the equivalents of Imperial Guard Sanctioned Psykers?
There's a huge difference in the power scale here.

...I'll respond in a few hours when I can dig out my IAIII for the first part.

Demiurg=squat.

And as for the IG sanctioned psyker thing, I was talking game mechanics if they were actually introduced (they won't be tho :()

im2randomghgh wrote:
Demiurg=squat.

No, they're not.

Demiurg are not Squats. No matter how much you want it to be true, it's not. Demiurg are not abhumans, they are a Xenos species that's native to the Eastern Fringe.
Squats are neither of those.

They're the same archetype("dwarfs in space"), but the 'actual' Squats are dead. They've been devoured by a Hive Fleet.

Squats are gone. Gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, gone.
Gone.

Demiurg is GW attempting to make a 'new' Dwarf in Space, but without the silliness and making them a subspecies of humanity like Ogryns or Ratlings.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Melissia wrote:And yet, the Tau weren't able to hold as well as the Adranti despite being larger...

How so? Rather then try and hold every colony, they retreated to a defensible position. And, it worked. For a year the Imperium was stalemated and then withdrew.

And interesting thing, by the way, you can't just jump willy-nilly through the warp, there are currents and routes to follow.

If, as Hoare's BL novels and IA:3 suggest, it was to fight off hive fleet behemoth, then...

the forces abandoning Tau space to go fight Behemoth at Ultramar never got there.


It's it's as Codex: Imperial Guard and Codex: Tau Empire state, then... Tau technology has roared ahead in the 20 years since the Crusade.

Even during the crusade it was superior in (most) areas to that of the IoM. It is only the fact that they do very, very extensive testing before they introduce tech empire-wide that has kept them from fielding massed squads of XV22s and giving the CIB as a replacement to the BC...Imagine the Manta if all it's burst cannons were replaced with CIBs...*eyes tear up* Then it would have 80 shots just from those turrets alone...with a dozen of those being ap1...

Kanluwen wrote:Demiurg are not Squats. No matter how much you want it to be true, it's not. Demiurg are not abhumans, they are a Xenos species that's native to the Eastern Fringe.
Squats are neither of those.

They're the same archetype("dwarfs in space"), but the 'actual' Squats are dead. They've been devoured by a Hive Fleet.

Squats are gone. Gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, gone, gone.
Gone.

Demiurg is GW attempting to make a 'new' Dwarf in Space, but without the silliness and making them a subspecies of humanity like Ogryns or Ratlings.

They actually aren't even granted that; they're just gone. No Hive Fleet, no remnants, just stricken from the books.

the Imperium is VERY good at operating logistical nightmares.


they can raise regiments trained to acceptable standards very quickly.

there are planets where every individual is trained for war. Cadia is just an example, but there are other planets where the entire populaion is on a war footing.


its true the true numbers of the Tau arn't knwon, but they pale in comparason to the IG. Humanity numbers in the Trillions. the IG in the countless billions with casualities being replaced constantly.

Kanluwen wrote:
Hahaha whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?

At Taros they did not have a "very, very small force". They had an unconfirmed number of Fire Caste(estimates are that it was the size of a full Hunter Cadre), an estimated 16,000 Kroot and accompanying Kroot subspecies, then the remnants of the Taros PDF and the Governor's household guard.

The First Taros Intervention consisted of a single Space Marine Company(the 2nd). 60 Tactical Marines, 20 Assault and Devastator Marines, 2 Dreadnoughts, 5 Terminators, an Apothecary, a Chaplain, and Captain Armaros.
They also had an assortment of vehicles(the most numerous being 10 Rhinos and 25 Drop Pods).
The Avenging Sons held for two days and the Tau finally had to pull out a Manta to remove them.
That doesn't seem like "Imperial retribution isn't all that scary" if the Tau had to pull a Manta to remove Astartes from dug-in positions.

The follow-up invasion included the Raptors Chapter "Strike Force Orelius". 3rd Company was a Chaplain, 60 Tacticals, 20 Assault/Devastators, 2 Dreads. 6th Company was a Captain, Chaplain, 100 Tacticals, 3 Dreadnoughts, and 8 Land Speeders. 10th Company was 10 Scouts.
The overall force was led by Captain Orelius, with a Codicer and 4 Apothecaries standing ready. Again, they also had a number of vehicles at their disposal. There was also a Company of Avenging Sons taking part.

The Guard forces that actually made it to the combat zone was the 17th Tallarn, 89th Tallarn, 331st Tallarn, 3rd Tallarn, 12th Tallarn Armoured, 23rd Elysian Drop, 11th Sarennian Assault Engineers, and 114th Cadian Shock Regiments. There was also the 2356th and 2378th Storm Trooper Companies. Two regiments(19th Krieg Armoured and 8th Brimlock Dragoons) never made it, and we never really heard anything about the Sarennian, the Elysians were only deployed for one specific battle, and there was a single Warhound Titan that was part of the invasion force.

Um, Kan...you're wrong in a few spots there

There were 4 titans, one of which was lost.

6 IG regiments is about 30,000 men on their own. Estimates for Taros are: 10,000 KIA, 15,000 wounded, 20,000 captured, 350 tanks, 200 artillery pieces, and 700 chimeras lost, as well as 68 aircraft out of 78. As well at one cruiser, one light cruiser, and eight escorts, plus extensive damage to a cruiser and battlecruiser.

Tau numbers at Taros are estimated in the vicinity of 8 to 9 thousand firewarriors, five thousand kroot, and eight thousand human auxiliaries. Losses are 'unknown' but believed to be in the thousands. (IA:3 pg 146). The Tau alost 1 carrier and 8 escorts.

The Avenging Sons were forced to withdraw by a combination of Tau ground forces and close air support from Barracudas. No Mantas were deployed during the initial skirmish. Mantas were brought in during the final push to drive the Imperials off hte planet entirely, and they worked to great effect on the Space Marines.

I've got IA3 sitting in front of me.

There was one Titan battlegroup deployed to Taros.

Grey Templar wrote:the Imperium is VERY good at operating logistical nightmares.


they can raise regiments trained to acceptable standards very quickly.

there are planets where every individual is trained for war. Cadia is just an example, but there are other planets where the entire populaion is on a war footing.


its true the true numbers of the Tau arn't knwon, but they pale in comparason to the IG. Humanity numbers in the Trillions. the IG in the countless billions with casualities being replaced constantly.

Actuyally, they're very bad at it, they just oversupply to compensate.

If by 'raise regiments to acceptable standards' you overlook how low those standards are, then, yes. I might point out that agianst hte Tau, anyway, POWs (and, of those, defectors) almost outnumber the killed and wounded combined.

On Fortress Worlds: yes, they exist, however, they tend to be very rare, as it takes dozens of planets to maintain one fortress world. Cadia and Kreig being the two most obvious, however... again, these are not unlimited resources. In fact, the Kreig are so chronically under supplied that they actually drain the blood from the dying to use on those that might live.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:I've got IA3 sitting in front of me.

There was one Titan battlegroup deployed to Taros.

Well, see, there you go. Not '1 warhound titan' as you wrote earlier.

The Imperium did outnumber the Tau on Taros (possibly quite badly).

Pft.

When you're writing the composition of forces in a warzone from memory and you only get one or two facts wrong, you get a bit of leeway.

Also, I'd like to point out two things:

1. Humanity does not number in the trillions, it numbers in the quadrillions.

and

2. It is not just the guard who numbers in the billions, There are also billions of Fire warriors. 100 planets, let's take a conservative estimate of 1 billion Tau per planet (probably much, much higher) with 1/4 of them being Fire warriors (25 billions Fire warriors) plus all the Ethereals that choose combat (many thousands) Plus 25 billion Air caste pilots, plus billions of kroot, billions of stingwings etc. etc. etc.

+Drones
+Farsight enclaves
+well over a million battlesuits

=Tau can beat the Templars-easily


Automatically Appended Next Post:
...more than one or two...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Imperium is VERY good at operating logistical nightmares.


they can raise regiments trained to acceptable standards very quickly.

there are planets where every individual is trained for war. Cadia is just an example, but there are other planets where the entire populaion is on a war footing.


its true the true numbers of the Tau arn't knwon, but they pale in comparason to the IG. Humanity numbers in the Trillions. the IG in the countless billions with casualities being replaced constantly.

Actuyally, they're very bad at it, they just oversupply to compensate.

If by 'raise regiments to acceptable standards' you overlook how low those standards are, then, yes. I might point out that agianst hte Tau, anyway, POWs (and, of those, defectors) almost outnumber the killed and wounded combined.

On Fortress Worlds: yes, they exist, however, they tend to be very rare, as it takes dozens of planets to maintain one fortress world. Cadia and Kreig being the two most obvious, however... again, these are not unlimited resources. In fact, the Kreig are so chronically under supplied that they actually drain the blood from the dying to use on those that might live.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:I've got IA3 sitting in front of me.

There was one Titan battlegroup deployed to Taros.

Well, see, there you go. Not '1 warhound titan' as you wrote earlier.

The Imperium did outnumber the Tau on Taros (possibly quite badly).

+10

This is circling the drain, I think.

Kanluwen wrote:This is circling the drain, I think.

i.e. you lost the argument...

im2randomghgh wrote:Also, I'd like to point out two things:

1. Humanity does not number in the trillions, it numbers in the quadrillions.

and

2. It is not just the guard who numbers in the billions, There are also billions of Fire warriors. 100 planets, let's take a conservative estimate of 1 billion Tau per planet (probably much, much higher) with 1/4 of them being Fire warriors (25 billions Fire warriors) plus all the Ethereals that choose combat (many thousands) Plus 25 billion Air caste pilots, plus billions of kroot, billions of stingwings etc. etc. etc.

+Drones
+Farsight enclaves
+well over a million battlesuits

=Tau can beat the Templars-easily

25 billion Fire Warriors? I'd be VERY generous with 20,000,000. Why would you even think that would be right? That's made my day.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:This is circling the drain, I think.

i.e. you lost the argument...

i.e. No one has won or lost...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:This is circling the drain, I think.

i.e. you lost the argument...

i.e. we've gone right back to where we started which is the Tau players insisting that somehow magically the Tau Navy will be at every single world, in full force, if a fleet based Chapter like the Black Templars or Dark Angels were to decide to commit the entire Tau Empire to exterminatus.

If the Black Templars were to attempt to invade each world? They wouldn't win. If they wanted to purge the Tau from existence, and damn the consequences?

There's not a thing the Tau can do about it. Right now, the Tau are protected by simply the fact that they're 3 things:
1) They're a massive buffet between an oncoming Tyranid Hive Fleet and the Eastern Marches of the Imperium.
2) They're populating worlds that the Imperium wants for their resources and habitability(people are replaceable, habitable worlds aren't).
3) They're, in the grand scheme of things, a far less immediate threat to the Imperium and can be reasoned with.

First off, props to Kan from having a stellar memory from the IA books.

You and Baron are a fountain of win imo.

No, they cannot field an army of sanctioned psykers . The Tau don't even really comprehend the existence of psykers to begin with, nevermind understand their uses and purposes. Even then, the Nicassar are not fit for combat, they have very limited mobility and are basically just explorers.

Heck the Nicassar don't even have enough psychic ability to do warp jumps. Meanwhile an Imperial Sanctioned Psyker can be just as capable as any other human in an assault, without ever having to rely on their powers they can still do a lot of damage through the precise detonation of munitions.

iproxtaco wrote:

25 billion Fire Warriors? I'd be VERY generous with 20,000,000. Why would you even think that would be right? That's made my day.

Hmm... For the entire Tau empire, actually that makes a sort of sense, if you assume that every single person in the fire caste is under arms.

In reality though it's probably more like 10 billion, grand total, to take into account things like the infirm, under age, and elderly.

And, actually, 1 billion would fit the Tau's 'balanced' approach to planets, each world being self sufficent, so things like hive worlds are unlikely.

We have no basis for numbers on Kroot or Stingwings. However, bare in mind that not all kroot fight for hte Tau, and not all kroot worlds and colonies are in tau space (some of them are fairly far flung, all the way to Segmentum Obscurus, actually).

I would suggest that at any one time the kroot would only be half the firewarriors that hte Tau could feild at any given time.

Where it gets interesting is human auxiliaries. We have no solid numbers on these, either, though it's well known that the Tau sign them on readily. (And, much to the Imperium's chagrin, are well known for treating them better then usual and NOT as cannon fodder [as is pointed out in IA:3] This could be the reason for the [very] high rate of apparent defections.) However, this could head into the billions easily, as well, depending on how many of what types of Imperial worlds have come under Tau control.

We don't actually know about a "high rate of defections".

The fact that the Tau are forced to maintain reeducation camps on planets that willingly joined them and deal with pro-Imperial insurgencies says a lot though.

Melissia wrote:No, they cannot field an army of sanctioned psykers . The Tau don't even really comprehend the existence of psykers to begin with, nevermind understand their uses and purposes. Even then, the Nicassar are not fit for combat, they have very limited mobility and are basically just explorers.

Heck the Nicassar don't even have enough psychic ability to do warp jumps. Meanwhile an Imperial Sanctioned Psyker can be just as capable as any other human in an assault, without ever having to rely on their powers they can still do a lot of damage through the precise detonation of munitions.

I might point out that the average alpha+ level rogue psyker can't make warp jumps either, despite their ability to kill or enslave every single living person on a planet at once with their mind. Or telekinetically push an entire starship through space like the Nicassar can.

And, giving the Tau's experiences with the warp rifts on their spin-ward boarder, I would think they're starting to get a pretty good idea on psykers and the warp. Or at least I hope they would. Someone would have to wonder at some point what the drooling horned abomination materializing on board are, and who these strange humans in blue and gold power armor are. I think the difference is the Tau don't automatically assume that every psyker is going to eat their soul before turning themselves into a gateway to the warp.


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Kanluwen wrote:We don't actually know about a "high rate of defections".

The fact that the Tau are forced to maintain reeducation camps on planets that willingly joined them and deal with pro-Imperial insurgencies says a lot though.

The entire PDF of Taros defected en mass, as have the PDFs in just about every other world the Tau have 'acquired'. The Inquisition actually rates the tau's ideology a greater threat to the Imperium then their military, and even ships of hte Imperial Navy have, on occasion, defected (something that only seems to happen for one other power... or should I say four other powers and then those powers undivided?)

And, again, other then the non-canon ending of the Dawn of War games, I've not seen any talk of re-education camps or sterilization programs. The military and political leaders of Pavonis were gathered up in a POW camp, that frankly, other then they were not allowed to leave, sounds like it compared well with a private retreat.

Prisoners taken on Taros were sent to the mines to work, but this may have been the Tau's idea of poetic justice, considering how many of the miners the same Imperials had killed. The Tau even offered the Imperium prisoner exchanges, which were declined by the Imperium, for obvious reasons.

Then you're clearly not reading Deathwatch.

There's mention in "Rites of Battle" of the Tau having reeducation camps and places where people enter but never leave, and the Kroot being unleashed onto populaces that harbor insurgents.

most Tau planets they take over from the imperium have Imperial resistance and it isn't from the PDF.


the PDF and ruling classes usually are the ones who defect to the Tau Empire.

however, at least a portion of the masses will be fanatically loyal to the Emperor. he is their God after all.


having your ruling figurehead be both your god and king is highly effective as it makes your subjects be loyal on 2 levels. the Tau can take away one level, but they can't touch the Emperor as a god.

all Imperial Planets conquored by the Tau have resistance cells on them. those human planets that don't were likely not Imperial at all and were simple rogue states.

Kanluwen wrote:Then you're clearly not reading Deathwatch.

There's mention in "Rites of Battle" of the Tau having reeducation camps and places where people enter but never leave, and the Kroot being unleashed onto populaces that harbor insurgents.

What page is that on? Since I've been using Rites and don't recall that.

Plenty on Pro Imperial terrorists blowing up well, anyone and everyone, it doesn't seem like they have a real plan in mind, but nothing on tau having civvies murdered. (and the rather amusing fight on the battleship where the Navy and Tau are still trying to get the upper hand.)

Grey Templar wrote:most Tau planets they take over from the imperium have Imperial resistance and it isn't from the PDF.

the PDF and ruling classes usually are the ones who defect to the Tau Empire.

however, at least a portion of the masses will be fanatically loyal to the Emperor. he is their God after all.

Actually, that's not always the case. Gravalax the populace was fairly pro Tau, but then, the populace was also fairly pro-genestealers, so...

The Tau's usual approach seems to be to form an extensive relationship with the population of a planet, and just sort of ease them into the Empire. Screaming priests don't have much pull when you're seeing xenos walk the streets every day, and may even be buying the tools of your trade from them. Tools which, in all honesty, may be superior to those you get from the admech. A few generations of exposure and the population is quite happy to join.

You usually only see them break out the guns and invade when outside influences jeopardize this approach. (Taros, Gravalax)

BaronIveagh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then you're clearly not reading Deathwatch.

There's mention in "Rites of Battle" of the Tau having reeducation camps and places where people enter but never leave, and the Kroot being unleashed onto populaces that harbor insurgents.

What page is that on? Since I've been using Rites and don't recall that.

Plenty on Pro Imperial terrorists blowing up well, anyone and everyone, it doesn't seem like they have a real plan in mind, but nothing on tau having civvies murdered. (and the rather amusing fight on the battleship where the Navy and Tau are still trying to get the upper hand.)

P.250 of Rites of Battle deals with 'Winter Unending', the Pro-Imperial Terrorist group and the Kroot/Tau sympathizer group called "The Gilded Torment".

It's P.352 of the main Deathwatch rulebook(I knew I had 352DW written on my notepad for some reason) that has the mention of the "Lacuna",under the heading of Tsua'Malor, an 'underground research facility which is rumored to be where the Tau conduct psycholigcal experiments on gue'la prisoners'.
You've also got the mention of the Velk'han Sept where "Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control"(HAH! IT'S CANON NOW!), the opposite page has Iphigenia and "The Grey Kings" where the Tau have begun recruiting feudal tribes and forcibly reeducating them.
The Kroot thing you're right about though, I was mistaking the part from Baraban and Ravacene as being part of that.




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Also: I still refuse to believe the Imperium "outnumbered the Tau" on Taros.

There's just no feasible way. The numbers don't add up for the Imperium, once PDF and the PDF assets are taken into account.

Kanluwen wrote:
P.250 of Rites of Battle deals with 'Winter Unending', the Pro-Imperial Terrorist group and the Kroot/Tau sympathizer group called "The Gilded Torment".

Um, the text, and I point this out, on the Gilded Torment, only states they have kroot mercenaries, and are an Imperial Death Cult that practices a debased form of Emperor worship and believe that they must inflict pain and suffering on their fellow citizens. Frankly, I can think of several Inquisitors who'd be glad to sign up.

Winter Unending targets pro-Tau (and sometimes pro-Imperial, or just alive) people and seems to be in to big collateral damage.

Kanluwen wrote:
It's P.352 of the main Deathwatch rulebook(I knew I had 352DW written on my notepad for some reason) that has the mention of the "Lacuna",under the heading of Tsua'Malor, an 'underground research facility which is rumored to be where the Tau conduct psycholigcal experiments on gue'la prisoners'.

It's rumored the United States has an alien space craft at Area 51. Oh, and if you get too close to try and find out, you do occasionally disappear.

Kanluwen wrote:
You've also got the mention of the Velk'han Sept where "Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control"(HAH! IT'S CANON NOW!), the opposite page has Iphigenia and "The Grey Kings" where the Tau have begun recruiting feudal tribes and forcibly reeducating them.
The Kroot thing you're right about though, I was mistaking the part from Baraban and Ravacene as being part of that.

Velk'han sept also mentions ancient 'strange ruins' that are driving everyone, tau and human alike 'insane'. (Sound familiar?)

And at populations way, WAY above what a world can viably sustain, if they would not stop breeding, *I'D* be sterilizing people too.

The description of the 're-education' they receive sounds a lot more like going to college than a brain washing program. Granted, you could argue that going to college IS a brain washing program, but...

Kanluwen wrote:
Also: I still refuse to believe the Imperium "outnumbered the Tau" on Taros.

There's just no feasible way. The numbers don't add up for the Imperium, once PDF and the PDF assets are taken into account.

You're forgetting it's a desert world where water is so rare the Imperium is shipping it in. So, yes, the populations (and PDF subset) will be tiny.

The numbers are right there. Says there were 8 thousand humans, 5k kroot, and 8-9 thousand Tau firewarriors.

Even if the Imperial guard regiments sent were at half strength, they'd still outnumber the Tau.

The Tau were vastly outnumbered on Taros.

The PDF and local gangs joining with them is the way the numbers got evened out. If I recall it was an annexation force sent. Something to bolster local forces and instil rule, since it was declared war upon right off the bat it's not like they had a garrison world of FWs.

Regardless, the units sent were overkill for the mission at hand. The problem wasn't Guard, it was command related. The Guard did their job but were lead very poorly and had fate turn its hand on them several times.

If the Imperium doesn't ever step up its game on the Tau they can expect every world to be like Taros and Dal'yth Prime. Sending in poorly lead forces no matter their number isn't a strategy that is ever going to wipe the Tau out.

With a new generation of weaponry being developed, the window to deal a significant blow to the Tau is rapidly closing. I have a feeling the Iron Hammer Campaign is going to be "the big one" in terms of making that attempt.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
If the Imperium doesn't ever step up its game on the Tau they can expect every world to be like Taros and Dal'yth Prime.

Not really.
Just have to wait until the nids ate them.

BeefCakeSoup wrote: Sending in poorly lead forces no matter their number isn't a strategy that is ever going to wipe the Tau out.

The background won't allow to wipe anyone with his own codex.
But go on and delude yourself with this assumption of poorly led forces as common way to operate of the imperium.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
With a new generation of weaponry being developed, the window to deal a significant blow to the Tau is rapidly closing.

Your false hope of eternal plot armor is amusing.

Right now, the theme has moved on and new threats rise. The Tau may had the advantage of sitting at the sidelines, but this will not last. In 5th ed, they encountered more of the widespread "population" of the 40k verse and didn't do well against them.
Had 3rd parties to save them, however the "saviours" didn't join the greater good did they? Seems the dark side has its clutches at their throat and the Tau will suffer for their ignorance.

Just remember: Tau aren't contributing to the efforts against incoming threats to this galaxy. Too entangled in their dogma.

BeefCakeSoup wrote: I have a feeling the Iron Hammer Campaign is going to be "the big one" in terms of making that attempt.

Attempt?
There is always an imperial codex to follow up and to drive em back...

im2randomghgh wrote: 100 planets, let's take a conservative estimate of 1 billion Tau per planet...

Wait... http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Worlds#Homeworld...you are trolling again. I don't see 100 planets here, I thought that Tau have less than 30 ( 26 worlds to be precise ).


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BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau were vastly outnumbered on Taros.

What? This is the stupidest thing I have heard this week.

Imperial Forces: around 6000 IG, 200 SM ( only 20 of those have seen combat ) and 4 Titans.
Tau Empire: someone have said 9000 FW, but I will take that this is wrong. Tau Fire Caste, Kroot, Taros PDF, Taros mining gangs.

It is the IG that got outnumbered, not Tau...

if you ask me no point..just kill evry etheral... thell kill them selves in another civil war..

And this is how it would be finished if the IG outnumbered the Tau on Taros:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: 100 planets, let's take a conservative estimate of 1 billion Tau per planet...

Wait... http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Worlds#Homeworld...you are trolling again. I don't see 100 planets here, I thought that Tau have less than 30 ( 26 worlds to be precise ).


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BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau were vastly outnumbered on Taros.

What? This is the stupidest thing I have heard this week.

Imperial Forces: around 6000 IG, 200 SM ( only 20 of those have seen combat ) and 4 Titans.
Tau Empire: someone have said 9000 FW, but I will take that this is wrong. Tau Fire Caste, Kroot, Taros PDF, Taros mining gangs.

It is the IG that got outnumbered, not Tau...

Imperial Armour 3, page 13 states that the Tau had, at the beginning of the Taros campaign, 100 colonised worlds including their homeworlds of several other, minor species.
Imperial Armour 3, page 146 states that Imperial losses are estimated to be around 10000 killed, 15000 wounded and up to 20000 captured.
Imperial Armour 3, page 146 estimates the Tau troop strenght at Taros with at least 9000 Firewarriors, 5000 Kroot and and 8000+ traitors.

So no, unless Imperial estimates were completely incorrect then the Tau were outnumbered at Taros.

But worry not,

KingDeath wrote:
Imperial Armour 3, page 13 states that the Tau had, at the beginning of the Taros campaign, 100 colonised worlds including their homeworlds of several other, minor species.
Imperial Armour 3, page 146 states that Imperial losses are estimated to be around 10000 killed, 15000 wounded and up to 20000 captured.
Imperial Armour 3, page 146 estimates the Tau troop strenght at Taros with at least 9000 Firewarriors, 5000 Kroot and and 8000+ traitors.

So no, unless Imperial estimates were completely incorrect then the Tau were outnumbered at Taros.

But worry not,

"Damn you Imperial Armory"

PS: Please don't take the pic as a personal attack, i merely searched for a reason ( no matter how remote ) to post it

Grey Templar wrote:most Tau planets they take over from the imperium have Imperial resistance and it isn't from the PDF.


the PDF and ruling classes usually are the ones who defect to the Tau Empire.

however, at least a portion of the masses will be fanatically loyal to the Emperor. he is their God after all.


having your ruling figurehead be both your god and king is highly effective as it makes your subjects be loyal on 2 levels. the Tau can take away one level, but they can't touch the Emperor as a god.

all Imperial Planets conquored by the Tau have resistance cells on them. those human planets that don't were likely not Imperial at all and were simple rogue states.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but the Tau actually let their gue'vesa worship the Emperor.


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Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: 100 planets, let's take a conservative estimate of 1 billion Tau per planet...

Wait... http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Worlds#Homeworld...you are trolling again. I don't see 100 planets here, I thought that Tau have less than 30 ( 26 worlds to be precise ).

26 sept worlds. Those are the worlds that have become the base of the Tau empire. They are the tau equivalents (but smaller) of worlds like Terra, Mars, and Armaggedon.

BaronIveagh wrote:I might point out that the average alpha+ level rogue psyker can't make warp jumps either, despite their ability to kill or enslave every single living person on a planet at once with their mind. Or telekinetically push an entire starship through space like the Nicassar can.

I'm fairly certain that most telekine psykers could could push a small psychoreactive ship (Nicassar ships are small) in space with their mind. How FAST they could push it depends on the level of a psyker-- and an alpha+ level psyker could push it a damn sight faster than a Nicassar could.

To an alpha+ level psyker, the laws of physics are child's plaything to do with or do away with as they want. "These things you call mass and inertia? Feth 'em. Let's push this baby as fast as we can go WHEE!"

Melissia wrote:No, they cannot field an army of sanctioned psykers . The Tau don't even really comprehend the existence of psykers to begin with, nevermind understand their uses and purposes. Even then, the Nicassar are not fit for combat, they have very limited mobility and are basically just explorers.

Heck the Nicassar don't even have enough psychic ability to do warp jumps. Meanwhile an Imperial Sanctioned Psyker can be just as capable as any other human in an assault, without ever having to rely on their powers they can still do a lot of damage through the precise detonation of munitions.

Warp jumps have little to do with your psychic might: they have everything to do with the Astronomicon, which doesn't even reach the Tau Empire.


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Melissia wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:I might point out that the average alpha+ level rogue psyker can't make warp jumps either, despite their ability to kill or enslave every single living person on a planet at once with their mind. Or telekinetically push an entire starship through space like the Nicassar can.

I'm fairly certain that most telekine psykers could could push a small psychoreactive ship (Nicassar ships are small) in space with their mind. How FAST they could push it depends on the level of a psyker-- and an alpha+ level psyker could push it a damn sight faster than a Nicassar could.

To an alpha+ level psyker, the laws of physics are child's plaything to do with or do away with as they want. "These things you call mass and inertia? Feth 'em. Let's push this baby as fast as we can go WHEE!"

Except that Nicassar crews are kept in cryo and have 1 or two awake at a time. One steers, one pushes, and their ships keep up with those FTL Tau ships.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, they cannot field an army of sanctioned psykers . The Tau don't even really comprehend the existence of psykers to begin with, nevermind understand their uses and purposes. Even then, the Nicassar are not fit for combat, they have very limited mobility and are basically just explorers.

Heck the Nicassar don't even have enough psychic ability to do warp jumps. Meanwhile an Imperial Sanctioned Psyker can be just as capable as any other human in an assault, without ever having to rely on their powers they can still do a lot of damage through the precise detonation of munitions.

Warp jumps have little to do with your psychic might: they have everything to do with the Astronomicon, which doesn't even reach the Tau Empire.

No they don't. Humanity was making warp jumps tens of thousands of years before the Astronomicon existed. They consistently make warp jumps in places where the astronomicon does not shine in modern day 40k as well.


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im2randomghgh wrote:Except that Nicassar crews are kept in cryo and have 1 or two awake at a time. One steers, one pushes, and their ships keep up with those FTL Tau ships.

No they don't, they have to be tethered to Tau ships. They're faster than them when they aren't going FTL, but they aren't themselves capable of superluminal travel.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:No, they cannot field an army of sanctioned psykers . The Tau don't even really comprehend the existence of psykers to begin with, nevermind understand their uses and purposes. Even then, the Nicassar are not fit for combat, they have very limited mobility and are basically just explorers.

Heck the Nicassar don't even have enough psychic ability to do warp jumps. Meanwhile an Imperial Sanctioned Psyker can be just as capable as any other human in an assault, without ever having to rely on their powers they can still do a lot of damage through the precise detonation of munitions.

Warp jumps have little to do with your psychic might: they have everything to do with the Astronomicon, which doesn't even reach the Tau Empire.

No they don't. Humanity was making warp jumps tens of thousands of years before the Astronomicon existed. They consistently make warp jumps in places where the astronomicon does not shine in modern day 40k as well.


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im2randomghgh wrote:Except that Nicassar crews are kept in cryo and have 1 or two awake at a time. One steers, one pushes, and their ships keep up with those FTL Tau ships.

No they don't, they have to be tethered to Tau ships. They're faster than them when they aren't going FTL, but they aren't themselves capable of superluminal travel.

1. Yes, they do. Humanity was making warp jumps that were comparable to those of the Tau before the Astronomicon came into play. Before the Astro, humanity didn't need navigators, since they had no way to navigate.

2. The reason they are tethered to Tau ships is because they lead them through the warp (like shepherds, they detect the currents and steer the Tau away from them).

im2randomghgh wrote:1. Yes, they do. Humanity was making warp jumps that were comparable to those of the Tau before the Astronomicon came into play.

That's not true and never has been. Go read the Rogue Trader roleplay game. Navigators can make warp jumps without the assistance of the Astronomicon-- it's a bit harder, but most assuredly possible. The reason they make shorter jumps (Still longer than that of the Tau) is because they need to get their bearings occasionally without the reference of the Astronomicon.

im2randomghgh wrote:2. The reason they are tethered to Tau ships is because they lead them through the warp (like shepherds, they detect the currents and steer the Tau away from them).

The reason they're tethered to the Tau is because they're incapable of superluminal travel themselves. The Tau don't enter the warp either with their FTL drive, and their jumps are EXTREMELY small compared to that of other races. In fact, the tau are never going to be able to be a threat to the galaxy with their current drives' short ranges (And amusingly enough, their allies have true warp drives, but the Kroot et. al. are keeping it a secret because they don't trust the Tau).

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:1. Yes, they do. Humanity was making warp jumps that were comparable to those of the Tau before the Astronomicon came into play.

That's not true and never has been. Go read the Rogue Trader roleplay game. Navigators can make warp jumps without the assistance of the Astronomicon-- it's a bit harder, but most assuredly possible. The reason they make shorter jumps (Still longer than that of the Tau) is because they need to get their bearings occasionally without the reference of the Astronomicon.

im2randomghgh wrote:2. The reason they are tethered to Tau ships is because they lead them through the warp (like shepherds, they detect the currents and steer the Tau away from them).

The reason they're tethered to the Tau is because they're incapable of superluminal travel themselves. The Tau don't enter the warp either with their FTL drive, and their jumps are EXTREMELY small compared to that of other races.

1. Exactly. They have to make short jumps. Just. Like. Tau.

2. No, the Nicassar were traveling the galaxy FTL before they even met the Tau. And yes, tau do enter the warp, just very, very shallow is all. It was compared (I forget where) to a diver (Tau) next to a submarine (all the other races that use the warp).

And they are not EXTREMELY small, they are 1/5 those made by the IoM.

im2randomghgh wrote:1. Exactly. They have to make short jumps. Just. Like. Tau.

You have no damned clue the SCALE of the jumps even comparing an unassisted warp jump compared to a Tau warp skim then, because you are hilariously wrong.

im2randomghgh wrote:And they are not EXTREMELY small, they are 1/5 those made by the IoM.

No, they aren't. Tau jumps are ludicrously small, it takes them a long time just to get from T'au to the edge of their tiny, minuscule, insignificant empire. They couldn't even DREAM of getting to the other side of the galaxy in a dozen Tau lifetimes.

The Tau don't go into the warp. The are described as skimming the surface at best, skipping across it like a throne stone across water. And Tau don't have very strong throwing arms.

Melissia wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:1. Exactly. They have to make short jumps. Just. Like. Tau.

You have no damned clue the SCALE of the jumps even comparing an unassisted warp jump compared to a Tau warp skim then, because you are hilariously wrong.

im2randomghgh wrote:And they are not EXTREMELY small, they are 1/5 those made by the IoM.

No, they aren't.

The Tau don't go into the warp. The are described as skimming the surface at best, skipping across it like a throne stone across water. And Tau don't have very strong throwing arms.

1. Unassissted warp jumps are not much larger than Tau skims, unless you want to take an enormous risk that fits the analogy "snowball's chance in hell" quite well.

2. The Tau DO enter the warp on their skims. They project a magnetic field ahead of them, which their ship then follows, which goes into the warp and emerges at a distant point in their star cluster. And yes, it is 1/5 of the IoM's warp travel.

The Tau make several short 'hops' into the Warp as they travel. That's what "skimming the edges" refers to.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:most Tau planets they take over from the imperium have Imperial resistance and it isn't from the PDF.


the PDF and ruling classes usually are the ones who defect to the Tau Empire.

however, at least a portion of the masses will be fanatically loyal to the Emperor. he is their God after all.


having your ruling figurehead be both your god and king is highly effective as it makes your subjects be loyal on 2 levels. the Tau can take away one level, but they can't touch the Emperor as a god.

all Imperial Planets conquored by the Tau have resistance cells on them. those human planets that don't were likely not Imperial at all and were simple rogue states.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but the Tau actually let their gue'vesa worship the Emperor.

No. They don't. Deathwatch talks about how the Tau go out of their way to stamp out the veneration of the Emperor within the worlds they 'enlighten'.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: 100 planets, let's take a conservative estimate of 1 billion Tau per planet...

Wait... http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Worlds#Homeworld...you are trolling again. I don't see 100 planets here, I thought that Tau have less than 30 ( 26 worlds to be precise ).

26 sept worlds. Those are the worlds that have become the base of the Tau empire. They are the tau equivalents (but smaller) of worlds like Terra, Mars, and Armaggedon.

Then they're not the Tau equivalents of "worlds like Terra, Mars, or Armageddon".
Mars is a place devoted to manufacturing, Terra is essentially one giant church, and Armageddon is another manufacturing world.

Yes, they ARE larger than Tau's little hops. I've traveled a larger distance in a Rogue Trader game in ONE JUMP not assisted by the Astronomicon than could feasibly be argued is the diameter of the entire Tau empire.

Melissia wrote:Yes, they ARE larger than Tau's little hops. I've traveled a larger distance in a Rogue Trader game in ONE JUMP not assisted by the Astronomicon than could feasibly be argued is the diameter of the entire Tau empire.

...I would argue that you did NOT jump 100 LY.


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Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:most Tau planets they take over from the imperium have Imperial resistance and it isn't from the PDF.


the PDF and ruling classes usually are the ones who defect to the Tau Empire.

however, at least a portion of the masses will be fanatically loyal to the Emperor. he is their God after all.


having your ruling figurehead be both your god and king is highly effective as it makes your subjects be loyal on 2 levels. the Tau can take away one level, but they can't touch the Emperor as a god.

all Imperial Planets conquored by the Tau have resistance cells on them. those human planets that don't were likely not Imperial at all and were simple rogue states.

Not sure if you're aware of this, but the Tau actually let their gue'vesa worship the Emperor.

No. They don't. Deathwatch talks about how the Tau go out of their way to stamp out the veneration of the Emperor within the worlds they 'enlighten'.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote: 100 planets, let's take a conservative estimate of 1 billion Tau per planet...

Wait... http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tau_Worlds#Homeworld...you are trolling again. I don't see 100 planets here, I thought that Tau have less than 30 ( 26 worlds to be precise ).

26 sept worlds. Those are the worlds that have become the base of the Tau empire. They are the tau equivalents (but smaller) of worlds like Terra, Mars, and Armaggedon.

Then they're not the Tau equivalents of "worlds like Terra, Mars, or Armageddon".
Mars is a place devoted to manufacturing, Terra is essentially one giant church, and Armageddon is another manufacturing world.

1. http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Gue%27vesa

2. Not like that, I meant they are equivalents in that they are vitally important worlds that hold the less important worlds together at the seams.


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Also, Deathwatch is written from the PoV of a xeno-phobic organisation of alien-hunters. Take that into account while reading it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:Yes, they ARE larger than Tau's little hops. I've traveled a larger distance in a Rogue Trader game in ONE JUMP not assisted by the Astronomicon than could feasibly be argued is the diameter of the entire Tau empire.

...I would argue that you did NOT jump 100 LY.

Then you would be wrong ^.^

And? That's the 'old' fluff for Gue'vasa and they didn't even get it right from the article that was published on GW's website about them back with Codex: Tau.

Deathwatch, p.352 wrote:

Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue'la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear , and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

I don't need to take anything into account when it comes to the background section of Deathwatch. It's written in a non-partisan viewpoint to give ideas as to how to run a campaign in the setting.

It's also an officially licensed product with Alan Merrett, head of GW's Intellectual Property and Owen Rees, GW's licensing manager, signing off on it.
You've also two of GW's own writers(Alan Bligh and Andy Hoare) working on the setting.

I still don't get one thing with the Tau...

Since Democles, official statement is that Tau and Imperium are at peace.
So why is Tau launching military strikes and capturing Imperial world if they are in peace with them?

Because the Tau are jerks and liars.

Brother Coa wrote:I still don't get one thing with the Tau...

Since Democles, official statement is that Tau and Imperium are at peace.
So why is Tau launching military strikes and capturing Imperial world if they are in peace with them?

In the 41st millenium, peace means no one is launching a crusade. Everybody is at war.

I am surprised that Imperium is actually keeping that peace.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gravalax_Incident

"Governor Grice was removed from office by order of the Inquisition for gross incompetence, after his actions almost prompted a war with the Tau."

Seems that the Tau are small on their words...

Kanluwen wrote:And? That's the 'old' fluff for Gue'vasa and they didn't even get it right from the article that was published on GW's website about them back with Codex: Tau.

Deathwatch, p.352 wrote:

Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue'la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear , and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

I don't need to take anything into account when it comes to the background section of Deathwatch. It's written in a non-partisan viewpoint to give ideas as to how to run a campaign in the setting.

It's also an officially licensed product with Alan Merrett, head of GW's Intellectual Property and Owen Rees, GW's licensing manager, signing off on it.
You've also two of GW's own writers(Alan Bligh and Andy Hoare) working on the setting.

Ya, you really due. This is how the IoM sees it. this is what it thinks is going on. This is what they tell the Deathwatch.

Also, talking about Andy Hoare isn't helping your case, as he is majorly pro-Tau and is a fairly huge fanboy.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:I still don't get one thing with the Tau...

Since Democles, official statement is that Tau and Imperium are at peace.
So why is Tau launching military strikes and capturing Imperial world if they are in peace with them?

In the 41st millenium, peace means no one is launching a crusade. Everybody is at war.

So Russia is in peace with US? That does not mean that Russians can't take Hawaii islands?

Universe or no, peace is peace. If they want to conquer Imperial worlds they must first declare war. Tau strategy was just lightning attack on some worlds and simple capture of others...
They have been beaten at most and they where able to capture few. Even then, Tau have call for peace, and Imperium send negotiating team and peace was again at strength.
Even so, Tau are again launching small attacks ( Kronus, Kaurava, Targa ).
They are so big on their word indeed. Poor blindly people that fled to them...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And? That's the 'old' fluff for Gue'vasa and they didn't even get it right from the article that was published on GW's website about them back with Codex: Tau.

Deathwatch, p.352 wrote:

Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue'la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear , and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

I don't need to take anything into account when it comes to the background section of Deathwatch. It's written in a non-partisan viewpoint to give ideas as to how to run a campaign in the setting.

It's also an officially licensed product with Alan Merrett, head of GW's Intellectual Property and Owen Rees, GW's licensing manager, signing off on it.
You've also two of GW's own writers(Alan Bligh and Andy Hoare) working on the setting.

Ya, you really do. This is how the IoM sees it. this is what it thinks is going on. This is what they tell the Deathwatch.

No. It isn't. There are bits and parts done 'in character', but the rest of it is simply a sourcebook for the adventures of the players.

Also, talking about Andy Hoare isn't helping your case, as he is majorly pro-Tau and is a fairly huge fanboy.

Once again: and? He's one of the writers for Deathwatch. He also has a writing credit for "Rites of Battle".
Both of those deal with a radically different viewpoint of the Tau than we normally see. They're also both, for the setting, written in a generally nonpartisan, omniscient viewpoint.

You'd know that if you read them though.

Brother Coa wrote:I am surprised that Imperium is actually keeping that peace.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Gravalax_Incident

"Governor Grice was removed from office by order of the Inquisition for gross incompetence, after his actions almost prompted a war with the Tau."

Seems that the Tau are small on their words...

...or smart.

They know the IoM is just waiting until the Tyranids are contained.

Once they have purged all the splinter fleets, they will undoubtably launch more crusades against the Tau.

Pre-emptive strike much?

They know that the more planets they have, and the more resources they have, the better their chances of survival will be. They know that this is their only chance to take Imperial planets (relatively) unopposed.

im2randomghgh wrote:...or smart.

They know the IoM is just waiting until the Tyranids are contained.

Once they have purged all the splinter fleets, they will undoubtably launch more crusades against the Tau.

Pre-emptive strike much?

They know that the more planets they have, and the more resources they have, the better their chances of survival will be. They know that this is their only chance to take Imperial planets (relatively) unopposed.

Why are they scared of the Imperium if they can beat it? Every Tau thread ends with that, so why are they scared of the Imperium?

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And? That's the 'old' fluff for Gue'vasa and they didn't even get it right from the article that was published on GW's website about them back with Codex: Tau.

Deathwatch, p.352 wrote:

Imperial religion is prohibited and the Tau Water Caste run education (and re-education) programs that instil an understanding and love of the Greater Good into the sometimes reluctant gue'la minds. Populations are regularly sterilised to prevent population growth outstretching Tau methods of control. Human transgressors against the Greater Good are not publicly executed, as is the Imperial way, for the Tau see no need to publicise the fates of those who oppose them. Instead, such gue'la simply disappear , and it is the way of the Greater Good to convince oneself that they never existed at all.

I don't need to take anything into account when it comes to the background section of Deathwatch. It's written in a non-partisan viewpoint to give ideas as to how to run a campaign in the setting.

It's also an officially licensed product with Alan Merrett, head of GW's Intellectual Property and Owen Rees, GW's licensing manager, signing off on it.
You've also two of GW's own writers(Alan Bligh and Andy Hoare) working on the setting.

Ya, you really do. This is how the IoM sees it. this is what it thinks is going on. This is what they tell the Deathwatch.

No. It isn't. There are bits and parts done 'in character', but the rest of it is simply a sourcebook for the adventures of the players.

Also, talking about Andy Hoare isn't helping your case, as he is majorly pro-Tau and is a fairly huge fanboy.

Once again: and? He's one of the writers for Deathwatch. He also has a writing credit for "Rites of Battle".
Both of those deal with a radically different viewpoint of the Tau than we normally see. They're also both, for the setting, written in a generally nonpartisan, omniscient viewpoint.

You'd know that if you read them though.

I have read Deathwatch. Didn't like it. Don't like the ordo xenos either. The Xenos races are ALL considerably less evil than the IoM.

Tau-Do what they need to for survival. They adapt, they offer mercy, they believe in their Manifest Destiny and will do anything to see it through to completion.

Orks-Every action they do is simply them following the instincts gene-bred into them by the Old Ones. They fight because they need to.

Eldar-They only attack when their leaders tell them that in the future the (insert race here) of the (insert location here) will attack (insert craftworld name here) in (insert number here) years.

Dark Eldar- They torture and indulge because if they stop Slaanesh will devour their souls.

Tyranids-controlled by hive mind. Hungry. very, very hungry.




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Oh and Necrons- cranky


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Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:...or smart.

They know the IoM is just waiting until the Tyranids are contained.

Once they have purged all the splinter fleets, they will undoubtably launch more crusades against the Tau.

Pre-emptive strike much?

They know that the more planets they have, and the more resources they have, the better their chances of survival will be. They know that this is their only chance to take Imperial planets (relatively) unopposed.

Why are they scared of the Imperium if they can beat it? Every Tau thread ends with that, so why are they scared of the Imperium?

They can't beat it, but the IoM simply can't afford to use all these resources on a comparatively passive threat. Black Crusades and splinter fleets are a pain like that.

So basically we've established that Tau are greedy little gak-fethers who don't respect peace treaties while the Imperium actually respects its treaties made with alien species.

Oh look, I think the Tau are actually being MORE evil than the Imperium!

We may need to re-iterate the point that the Imperium is besieged, BUT IT IS NOT AT BREAKING POINT. Tithing a few extra million from various hive worlds and stepping up production of resources needed for Guard regiments whilst mobilizing various Titan legions and idle Space Marines companies will give the Imperium more than enough. Sure, they could use them against the myriad of other more important and dangerous threats, but if the Tau start trying to push their 'Greater Good' bs on important border worlds, they Imperium will come down on them like a hammer squashing an ant. The Tau may not be a threat right now, but if they do become one, the Imperium WILL react, and they certainly have the resources to do so.

You can't say the Imperium is wholly evil. They do what they do for survival, and because its what their beliefs compel them to do it. The Tau do what they do for survival, and because its what their beliefs compel them to do. not that much of a difference. It's an over simplification, but the Tau are in every races best interests. Every species has their own agendas and the right to pursue their own goals. Whereas the Imperium can ignore those species, wipe them out or in some cases even ally with them, the Tau only try to subjugate. Forcibly if they have to., simply because they THINK their beliefs are the best.

Brother Coa wrote:I still don't get one thing with the Tau...

Since Democles, official statement is that Tau and Imperium are at peace.
So why is Tau launching military strikes and capturing Imperial world if they are in peace with them?

That is a good question. Has the peace officially ended? The tau probably "justified" these raids and attacks as "liberation", but it's a silly move on their part. Peace time, is the time when they need to take out their roles and butter up the IoM. Send in the trade ships and try to get more allies.

im2randomghgh wrote:
They can't beat it, but the IoM simply can't afford to use all these resources on a comparatively passive threat. Black Crusades and splinter fleets are a pain like that.

Really, and I thought that Tau Fire cast outnumber IG and that Tau Navy have more ships than Imperial Navy.
That Tau have 26 billion FW and Million battlesuits to bare in the invasion...
And that they can go into the EoT and kill Chaos Gods...

Tau are evil, they are just using other methods ( like Hitler with Austria and Czechoslovakia in late 1930-is ).

Melissia wrote:So basically we've established that Tau are greedy little gak-fethers who don't respect peace treaties while the Imperium actually respects its treaties made with alien species.

Oh look, I think the Tau are actually being MORE evil than the Imperium!

The IoM doesn't make peace, it puts war on pause.

The peace wasn't an NAP between the two factions, it was the Tau allowing the DGC to flee and in return the IoM would focus on HFB.

HFB was destroyed. The IoM is therefore at war with the Tau Empire.

im2randomghgh wrote:

Melissia wrote:So basically we've established that Tau are greedy little gak-fethers who don't respect peace treaties while the Imperium actually respects its treaties made with alien species.

Oh look, I think the Tau are actually being MORE evil than the Imperium!

The IoM doesn't make peace, it puts war on pause.

The peace wasn't an NAP between the two factions, it was the Tau allowing the DGC to flee and in return the IoM would focus on HFB.

HFB was destroyed. The IoM is therefore at war with the Tau Empire.

So it was just a temporary peace so the IoM had time get all their people out? Because that is not what happened, so ya. I wonder, can we think of any battle where the IoM was the aggressor rather then reacting to the tau attacking?

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
They can't beat it, but the IoM simply can't afford to use all these resources on a comparatively passive threat. Black Crusades and splinter fleets are a pain like that.

Really, and I thought that Tau Fire cast outnumber IG and that Tau Navy have more ships than Imperial Navy.
That Tau have 26 billion FW and Million battlesuits to bare in the invasion...
And that they can go into the EoT and kill Chaos Gods...

Tau are evil, they are just using other methods ( like Hitler with Austria and Czechoslovakia in late 1930-is ).

26 billions FW can't stand up to ~1,000,000,000,000 IG. I am the first to admit it. But I am saying the IoM simply can't afford to fight off several billion Xenos who have only taken a handful of worlds and who prefer political battle to actual battle. If there were 26 billion orks you could be sure that they would devote all the necessary resources, but the Tau have fought and killed enough Orks and Tyranids to actual be helpful to the IoM, despite the aforementioned handful of conquered worlds.

Give me the source that says the Tau allowed the DGC to 'flee'. They were told to withdraw due to more pressing concerns. Where are people getting the 19 regiments in the Crusade idea from? There were 2 as far as I can see. And there are not '26 billion' Fire warriors'. Not all the Castes will be equal. The Earth Caste and Water Caste will be the largest, probably two thirds of the race. the other third is split between the Air and Fire Castes, with them being about equal. Even if there were 10 billion in the Fire Caste, not all of those will be under arms as Fire Warriors. You have a myriad of other roles in the Military than just as an infantryman.

iproxtaco wrote:Give me the source that says the Tau allowed the DGC to 'flee'. They were told to withdraw due to more pressing concerns. Where are people getting the 19 regiments in the Crusade idea from? There were 2 as far as I can see.

In Savage Scars the crusade was weakened, over-extended, and at the end, completely out numbered/out gunned by the Tau. When the Tau reinforcements came, the Imperial fleet was SCREWED.

The DGC was like "oh noes! Dere is so many Grays! Maybe I shuud go squish saam baags?

If they had stayed, the would have been railgun-ded.

They basically negociated safe passage back to Imperial Boarders and the Tau didn't want any more bloodshed and said "Yup"

So, an outnumbered and out gunned Imperial force managed to draw the Tau into a stalemate, that was only broken when a large number of Tau reinforcements arrived? Ha.

im2randomghgh wrote:
The IoM is therefore at war with the Tau Empire.

Where does it say that?

iproxtaco wrote:So, an outnumbered and out gunned Imperial force managed to draw the Tau into a stalemate, that was only broken when a large number of Tau reinforcements arrived? Ha.

They weren't out numbered/gunned until the reinforcements arrived.

The only reason they survived so long was that a Gue'vesa loyal to the IoM exaggerated the size of the crusade to the Tau, so they waited and gathered the largest force they could without leaving the rest of their empire defenseless.

So you're citing a book written by a Tau fanboy.

My God. It's almost like you could have guaranteed that the Tau would win!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Also, talking about Andy Hoare isn't helping your case, as he is majorly pro-Tau and is a fairly huge fanboy.

Will become an intersting read in this thread when quotes finally make it into it.

im2randomghgh wrote:

In Savage Scars the crusade was weakened, over-extended, and at the end, completely out numbered/out gunned by the Tau. When the Tau reinforcements came, the Imperial fleet was SCREWED.

The DGC was like "oh noes! Dere is so many Grays! Maybe I shuud go squish saam baags?

If they had stayed, the would have been railgun-ded.

They basically negociated safe passage back to Imperial Boarders and the Tau didn't want any more bloodshed and said "Yup"

Not really. The Tau were close to be virus bombed. After getting slain in their hundreds and thousands.

Kanluwen wrote:So you're citing a book written by a Tau fanboy.

My God. It's almost like you could have guaranteed that the Tau would win!

You shall not guarantee.
The only winner is the rogue trader.
Tau retreat into orbit and think they can threathen the IoM. But to believe and to be able to are different things.

Just you wait, I'll grab Savage scars and put some direct quotes in here...

So, a weakened and over-extended Imperial force which wasn't that big to begin with, managed to force the Tau to a stalemate on one of their most heavily defended and populated worlds and was only forced to withdraw due to a command from an inquisitor and a large number of Tau reinforcements arriving? Ha.

im2randomghgh wrote:Actually, Tau were in their cave-age 6000 years ago and are at a technoloical level we may never reach. The earliest human cave-people were dated to approx. 2.2 million years ago.

The Tau were hunter-gatherer nomads/horticulturalists when discovered. As little as two thousand years ago the vast majority of humanity fit into those slots, and three thousand years ago almost the entirety did, with the rest being primitive agriculturalist. Tau tech, ignoring the Magical Sci-Fantasy Physics stuff, is barely an improvement over modern technology, and most of that lies in mobile power sources making their primitive, bulky attempts at power armor (size of a dreadnought, protection of power armor, firepower of a heavy weapon team) and railguns feasible.

im2randomghgh wrote:But yes, I agree completely. Consider it this way: the Tau have just over 100 planets, which is 1:10,000 of the IoM, except that between the air caste, fire caste, and ethereal caste more than 50% of their population fights battles, and that's not including the battlefield technicians of the earth caste, and their numberless drones, and the auxilliaries. Everthing accounted for, about 75-80% of the inhabitants of the Tau Empire see the battlefield for one reason or another. Nothing even vaguely close to that percentage for the IoM. The IoM still has them outnumbered, but it would probably mean about 1:5000th of their resources went to it, instead of 1:10,000th. Do you think the IoM can afford to lose 1:5000th of it's military might?

Last I heard, the Tau have seven sept worlds with populations approaching modern Earth, the rest of the septs approaching the population of Cadia or somesuch (around that of the US; this is assuming that there are larger ones, and that they're not all so lightly populated as Cadia or Macragge), and the colonies having populations in the hundreds of thousands, leaving their total population somewhere between a third and half that of the lower limit of an Imperial hiveworld. There are in excess of 32,000 hiveworlds, housing a minimum of 10 quadrillion (and a rough upper limit of ~32 quadrillion), and can be taken as housing roughly half the total Imperial population, leaving the total anywhere from 20-70 quadrillion. The Guard numbers somewhere from 10 trillion to 30 trillion, with estimates varying due to the lack of anything but general figures (outnumber Space Marines a million to one; one billion regiments; somewhere around .1% of the population on the outside (from the Guard codex: Armageddon is tithed for one hundred million recruits, out of its hundreds of billions of residents; this is stated to be exceptionally high due to the extenuating circumstances)).

It cannot be assumed that the Tau are split evenly between the castes either. The earth and water castes would have to be the largest, being the laborers and merchants/diplomats/traders respectively, followed by the air caste, being the pilots for everything the Tau have, from civilian transports to freighters, followed by the fire caste, being soldiers and whatever the ones not physically/mentally/psychologically fit to be soldiers end up as ("soylent gray"?), followed by the Ethereals, who's purpose seems to just be keeping local caste leadership in check (presumably through pheromones, considering what happens when they die/leave). So from a total population of around 50-60 billion (to be extremely generous), the fire caste couldn't be higher than around one billion (and that's on the outside, as evidenced by the fact that they don't show up in numbers anywhere near representative of such a high total, as that would be enough for there to be ten million fire warriors on every planet at all times, when only a few thousand show up in major conflicts)), and the air caste would be almost entirely civilian, because of the need for pilots in essential transportation infrastructure.

The Tau Navy sucks. Their best ship is an inferior copy of a ship that can be built by imperial feral worlds, it is so basic. A battlebarge or six(teen) and about three times that number of strke crusiers and other assorted navy vessels like the BT have would just rip through the Tau Empire like a hot knife through butter. Cool gunz win battles, the <redacted> Navy wins wars. The whole BT focusing on the tiny threat of the Tau Empire, which is a bit bigger than Ultramar is really unlikely and the premis of this thread is rediculous. The Imperium has bigger threats the don't even have a CODEX. Hrud, for example are a (far) bigger threat to the Imperium. Titan Legions are thrown against Eldar Exodites and return beaten or bloody, Genestealer cults are HUGE, actually, and the lost and the damned are a much bigger deal than the Chaos Marines, when no black crusade is going on.

The Tau are ment to be representitve of one of the minor alien realms that through guile or sheer luck hve escaped the scrutiny of the IoM. Tau are cool, whatever, but calling them a player is fairly rediculous. The forces of one Hive World or maybe one Forge World might be enough to KO a good 3/4 of the Empire.

The Tau have legitametly learned from their mistakes and/or shortcomings during the DGC, so bully for them, now they may not send as much reinforcements =P

Just face it random, no matter what you say, the Tau are still just a minor, tiny, and relatively insignificant force in the galaxy. Sure, their aesthetics are cool and all, and their military is efficient. But I could say the same thing about everyone else in 40k-- the Imperium's military is brutally efficient as well, and I quite like Imperial aesthetics for the most part (minus Sororitas breastplates). But the Imperium is to the Tau what an human is to a puppy. Sure, the puppy might bite the Imperium's, but then the Imperium says "bad doggy" and the puppy backs down or it gets kicked across the room.

iproxtaco wrote:So, a weakened and over-extended Imperial force which wasn't that big to begin with, managed to force the Tau to a stalemate on one of their most heavily defended and populated worlds and was only forced to withdraw due to a command from an inquisitor and a large number of Tau reinforcements arriving? Ha.

Yes, a force designed to conquer the entire Tau Empire did get stalled by a single planets, by a single city, how observant of you *pats on head*


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sniperjolly wrote:The Tau Navy sucks. Their best ship is an inferior copy of a ship that can be built by imperial feral worlds, it is so basic. A battlebarge or six(teen) and about three times that number of strke crusiers and other assorted navy vessels like the BT have would just rip through the Tau Empire like a hot knife through butter. Cool gunz win battles, the <redacted> Navy wins wars. The whole BT focusing on the tiny threat of the Tau Empire, which is a bit bigger than Ultramar is really unlikely and the premis of this thread is rediculous. The Imperium has bigger threats the don't even have a CODEX. Hrud, for example are a (far) bigger threat to the Imperium. Titan Legions are thrown against Eldar Exodites and return beaten or bloody, Genestealer cults are HUGE, actually, and the lost and the damned are a much bigger deal than the Chaos Marines, when no black crusade is going on.

The Tau are ment to be representitve of one of the minor alien realms that through guile or sheer luck hve escaped the scrutiny of the IoM. Tau are cool, whatever, but calling them a player is fairly rediculous. The forces of one Hive World or maybe one Forge World might be enough to KO a good 3/4 of the Empire.

The Tau have legitametly learned from their mistakes and/or shortcomings during the DGC, so bully for them, now they may not send as much reinforcements =P

Not sure where you're getting *can be built on feral worlds* since the only faction in WH40K more high-tech than the Tau are the Nerons, and arguably Eldar.


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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Actually, Tau were in their cave-age 6000 years ago and are at a technoloical level we may never reach. The earliest human cave-people were dated to approx. 2.2 million years ago.

The Tau were hunter-gatherer nomads/horticulturalists when discovered. As little as two thousand years ago the vast majority of humanity fit into those slots, and three thousand years ago almost the entirety did, with the rest being primitive agriculturalist. Tau tech, ignoring the Magical Sci-Fantasy Physics stuff, is barely an improvement over modern technology, and most of that lies in mobile power sources making their primitive, bulky attempts at power armor (size of a dreadnought, protection of power armor, firepower of a heavy weapon team) and railguns feasible.

im2randomghgh wrote:But yes, I agree completely. Consider it this way: the Tau have just over 100 planets, which is 1:10,000 of the IoM, except that between the air caste, fire caste, and ethereal caste more than 50% of their population fights battles, and that's not including the battlefield technicians of the earth caste, and their numberless drones, and the auxilliaries. Everthing accounted for, about 75-80% of the inhabitants of the Tau Empire see the battlefield for one reason or another. Nothing even vaguely close to that percentage for the IoM. The IoM still has them outnumbered, but it would probably mean about 1:5000th of their resources went to it, instead of 1:10,000th. Do you think the IoM can afford to lose 1:5000th of it's military might?

Last I heard, the Tau have seven sept worlds with populations approaching modern Earth, the rest of the septs approaching the population of Cadia or somesuch (around that of the US; this is assuming that there are larger ones, and that they're not all so lightly populated as Cadia or Macragge), and the colonies having populations in the hundreds of thousands, leaving their total population somewhere between a third and half that of the lower limit of an Imperial hiveworld. There are in excess of 32,000 hiveworlds, housing a minimum of 10 quadrillion (and a rough upper limit of ~32 quadrillion), and can be taken as housing roughly half the total Imperial population, leaving the total anywhere from 20-70 quadrillion. The Guard numbers somewhere from 10 trillion to 30 trillion, with estimates varying due to the lack of anything but general figures (outnumber Space Marines a million to one; one billion regiments; somewhere around .1% of the population on the outside (from the Guard codex: Armageddon is tithed for one hundred million recruits, out of its hundreds of billions of residents; this is stated to be exceptionally high due to the extenuating circumstances)).

It cannot be assumed that the Tau are split evenly between the castes either. The earth and water castes would have to be the largest, being the laborers and merchants/diplomats/traders respectively, followed by the air caste, being the pilots for everything the Tau have, from civilian transports to freighters, followed by the fire caste, being soldiers and whatever the ones not physically/mentally/psychologically fit to be soldiers end up as ("soylent gray"?), followed by the Ethereals, who's purpose seems to just be keeping local caste leadership in check (presumably through pheromones, considering what happens when they die/leave). So from a total population of around 50-60 billion (to be extremely generous), the fire caste couldn't be higher than around one billion (and that's on the outside, as evidenced by the fact that they don't show up in numbers anywhere near representative of such a high total, as that would be enough for there to be ten million fire warriors on every planet at all times, when only a few thousand show up in major conflicts)), and the air caste would be almost entirely civilian, because of the need for pilots in essential transportation infrastructure.

30+ Sept worlds. 70+ settled worlds of other kinds. 10+ auxilliary worlds.

and the role of the castes has little/nothing to do with their populations, as each caste is a sub-species.


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Kanluwen wrote:So you're citing a book written by a Tau fanboy.

My God. It's almost like you could have guaranteed that the Tau would win!

Well every single IG/SM book ever written is just dripping with fanboyism, so I am not sure how that is relevant.

I think the real issue here is that the tau are sitting on a cluster of Tomb Worlds.

Lets the conspiracies commence!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Not sure where you're getting *can be built on feral worlds* since the only faction in WH40K more high-tech than the Tau are the Nerons, and arguably Eldar.

...except the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, hell even the ORKS have better tech than the Tau.


As for the Imperium of Man wiping out the Tau, I point to page 310 of the Deathwatch core rulebook for info on the "Kill-ships". I wonder how the Tau race would react when everyone on T'au is turned into goo?

And you'll notice how I'm not citing them as examples in this thread.

Funny, right?

No matter what:
The Tau, if the Imperium wants them dead at this point in time, rather than at the outset of the Damocles Gulf Crusade which was an extermination campaign based upon some 90 Marines, 4 or 5 Guard Regiments, and the equivalent of a sector patrol's worth for the Navy assets--there is not a damn thing the Tau can do to stop it.

They will be steamrolled. They will lose their planets, and they will cease to exist.

But as has been pointed out repeatedly: The Tau exist because the Imperium are busy with other threats. Interstellar threats, threats that can actually move beyond their home sector.

Let's not forget that Hive Fleet Gorgon's been tearing around Tau space, and one of their Sept worlds(Kel'shan) has a Guard force planetside, and Kel'shan's defenses are weakened.

We could also ignore the fact that the Cadian XVIIIth managed to start a siege and get past the Tyranids and Tau to do such a thing.

The Lunar Class Crusier has been built by feral worlds.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:So, a weakened and over-extended Imperial force which wasn't that big to begin with, managed to force the Tau to a stalemate on one of their most heavily defended and populated worlds and was only forced to withdraw due to a command from an inquisitor and a large number of Tau reinforcements arriving? Ha.

Yes, a force designed to conquer the entire Tau Empire did get stalled by a single planets, by a single city, how observant of you *pats on head*

A force of less than one hundred thousand swept up to a full fledged sept world, where it ground into a stalemate, learned that no one was sending more supplies or reinforcements, and retreated to salvage what it could.

Not sure where you're getting *can be built on feral worlds* since the only faction in WH40K more high-tech than the Tau are the Nerons, and arguably Eldar.

The Tau sit at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to advanced technology. Even Orks have more advanced technology. The lowly lasgun is more alive than a Tau, on account of the whole "machine spirit" thing.

30+ Sept worlds. 70+ settled worlds of other kinds. 10+ auxilliary worlds.

and the role of the castes has little/nothing to do with their populations, as each caste is a sub-species.

None of that addressed any of my points. If there were so much as one billion fire caste, unless almost every single one of them isn't fit for military service, there would be more than a few thousand to a few tens of thousands of firewarriors involved in minor skirmishes, let alone major conflicts.

im2randomghgh wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:So, a weakened and over-extended Imperial force which wasn't that big to begin with, managed to force the Tau to a stalemate on one of their most heavily defended and populated worlds and was only forced to withdraw due to a command from an inquisitor and a large number of Tau reinforcements arriving? Ha.

Yes, a force designed to conquer the entire Tau Empire did get stalled by a single planets, by a single city, how observant of you *pats on head.


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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Actually, Tau were in their cave-age 6000 years ago and are at a technoloical level we may never reach. The earliest human cave-people were dated to approx. 2.2 million years ago.

The Tau were hunter-gatherer nomads/horticulturalists when discovered. As little as two thousand years ago the vast majority of humanity fit into those slots, and three thousand years ago almost the entirety did, with the rest being primitive agriculturalist. Tau tech, ignoring the Magical Sci-Fantasy Physics stuff, is barely an improvement over modern technology, and most of that lies in mobile power sources making their primitive, bulky attempts at power armor (size of a dreadnought, protection of power armor, firepower of a heavy weapon team) and railguns feasible.

im2randomghgh wrote:But yes, I agree completely. Consider it this way: the Tau have just over 100 planets, which is 1:10,000 of the IoM, except that between the air caste, fire caste, and ethereal caste more than 50% of their population fights battles, and that's not including the battlefield technicians of the earth caste, and their numberless drones, and the auxilliaries. Everthing accounted for, about 75-80% of the inhabitants of the Tau Empire see the battlefield for one reason or another. Nothing even vaguely close to that percentage for the IoM. The IoM still has them outnumbered, but it would probably mean about 1:5000th of their resources went to it, instead of 1:10,000th. Do you think the IoM can afford to lose 1:5000th of it's military might?

Last I heard, the Tau have seven sept worlds with populations approaching modern Earth, the rest of the septs approaching the population of Cadia or somesuch (around that of the US; this is assuming that there are larger ones, and that they're not all so lightly populated as Cadia or Macragge), and the colonies having populations in the hundreds of thousands, leaving their total population somewhere between a third and half that of the lower limit of an Imperial hiveworld. There are in excess of 32,000 hiveworlds, housing a minimum of 10 quadrillion (and a rough upper limit of ~32 quadrillion), and can be taken as housing roughly half the total Imperial population, leaving the total anywhere from 20-70 quadrillion. The Guard numbers somewhere from 10 trillion to 30 trillion, with estimates varying due to the lack of anything but general figures (outnumber Space Marines a million to one; one billion regiments; somewhere around .1% of the population on the outside (from the Guard codex: Armageddon is tithed for one hundred million recruits, out of its hundreds of billions of residents; this is stated to be exceptionally high due to the extenuating circumstances)).

It cannot be assumed that the Tau are split evenly between the castes either. The earth and water castes would have to be the largest, being the laborers and merchants/diplomats/traders respectively, followed by the air caste, being the pilots for everything the Tau have, from civilian transports to freighters, followed by the fire caste, being soldiers and whatever the ones not physically/mentally/psychologically fit to be soldiers end up as ("soylent gray"?), followed by the Ethereals, who's purpose seems to just be keeping local caste leadership in check (presumably through pheromones, considering what happens when they die/leave). So from a total population of around 50-60 billion (to be extremely generous), the fire caste couldn't be higher than around one billion (and that's on the outside, as evidenced by the fact that they don't show up in numbers anywhere near representative of such a high total, as that would be enough for there to be ten million fire warriors on every planet at all times, when only a few thousand show up in major conflicts)), and the air caste would be almost entirely civilian, because of the need for pilots in essential transportation infrastructure.

30+ Sept worlds. 70+ settled worlds of other kinds. 10+ auxilliary worlds.

and the role of the castes has little/nothing to do with their populations, as each caste is a sub-species.

Firstly, IT WAS NOT A LARGE FORCE. It managed to crusade to a SEPT world, where it was not defeated, but was STALLED.

Secondly, role of the Castes has EVERYTHING to do with population. The Earth Caste includes roles which require the largest numbers of people to fulfill effectively, same with the Water Caste. The Fire Caste only contains the military, which is a small percentage of any race, and does not have a high demand. Within the Fire Caste, only about 60% will be infantrymen, the rest will be operators of various equipment and fulfilling command, communication and support roles, making the estimate that there are 25 BILLION fire warriors the most ludicrous thing I've heard in this thread, next to the stupid estimation that 80% of the Tau see the battlefield.

Well, any race that isn't Orkoid at any rate.

With Orks, 100% of their population is part of the military and all that jazz.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, hell even the ORKS have better tech than the Tau.

No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".

Also, the basic infantry rifles for the Tau take a solid slug, and after leaving the barrel, it becomes plasma. No other race (necrons excepted) have anything that can even compare to that.

Plus they have the most high-tech battle armour, and the best quality stealth technology of any race, plus they have the most efficient, level-headed military techniques (not tech but thought I'd throw that in) and the best jet packs of anyone. Oh and vespids are fun to paint.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:

The role of the Castes has EVERYTHING to do with population. The Earth Caste includes roles which require the largest numbers of people to fulfill effectively, same with the Water Caste. The Fire Caste only contains the military, which is a small percentage of any race, and does not have a high demand. Within the Fire Caste, only about 60% will be infantrymen, the rest will be operators of various equipment and fulfilling command, communication and support roles, making the estimate that there are 25 BILLION fire warriors the most ludicrous thing I've heard in this thread, next to the stupid estimation that 80% of the Tau see the battlefield.

No, the earth caste are not as numerous as you seem to think. They use drones for almost everything, even the basics (farming/agriculture).

The water caste are no more numerous than anyone else.

And no, the support roles in the military are fulfilled by the earth caste. the earth caste are their battlefield technicians, they construct bunkers, work the comms etc.

Pretty much everyone in the Fire Caste IS an infantry man/battlesuit operator. This is not the Guard, where the support roles are members of the regiment.

And I didn't say 80% see the battlefield, 80% influence the battlefield. Ethereals and fire warriors on the front-lines, earth-caste technicians doing repairs, air caste doing bombing runs/naval combat. Only the water caste really doesn't ever step on the field of battle, and even then they still effect it, by bringing over troops from the enemy.

The Tau aren't going to say: We want more diplomats, so no procreation for Fire Warriors for a month! No, they are each subspecies, and regardless of role will reproduce to the same (or similar) numbers.


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Melissia wrote:Well, any race that isn't Orkoid at any rate.

With Orks, 100% of their population is part of the military and all that jazz.

...or Tyranid-y.

...or daemonic...

I could argue with you on that, but I'll just put this down, assuming all your points are accurate.

...Yet far inferior navy, everyone else wins.

sniperjolly wrote:I could argue with you on that, but I'll just put this down, assuming all your points are accurate.

...Yet far inferior navy, everyone else wins.

No their navy is pretty solid. I play them in BFG

The demiurg ships are awesome too

im2randomghgh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, hell even the ORKS have better tech than the Tau.

No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".

Also, the basic infantry rifles for the Tau take a solid slug, and after leaving the barrel, it becomes plasma. No other race (necrons excepted) have anything that can even compare to that.

Eldar.

That's also not how a pulse weapon works.

Nerivant wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, hell even the ORKS have better tech than the Tau.

No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".

Also, the basic infantry rifles for the Tau take a solid slug, and after leaving the barrel, it becomes plasma. No other race (necrons excepted) have anything that can even compare to that.

Eldar.

That's also not how a pulse weapon works.

Admittedly, the Tau's logic is vaguely (very, very vaguely) similar to the Eldar.

It is.

Codex Tau Empire wrote: The pulse rifle uses an induction field to propel a particle, which reacts by breaking down to create a plasma pulse as it leaves the barrel.

im2randomghgh wrote:

...they have the most efficient, level-headed military techniques ...

Keeping your head low and running away counts as tech now?

Militarization level:

Necrons 100%
Demons 100%
Nids 90-100%
Orkoids 80-100%
Eldar 20-100%
Humans 30-70%

IoM <2% =P

Compare all the military forces on Armageddon (1st war or 2nd, easily found) with the population of the planet (aprox. 120 billion) The result is really quite pathetic. The IoM, while "there is always war" NEVER aproaches earth levels of militarization as a whole, and hasen't since the Heresy, or possibly the Age of Apostacy.

Scratch that,
IOM <0.1%

40K needs to gets its math straight! Like hell there were 360 million IG on Armageddon, the order of battle lists less than 200 regiments!

Maybe the IoM doesn't invoke full mobilization , yet?
Wouldn't it be unfair to do so?

I mean , a million orks invades and youre sending 10% to stop them...

12.000.000.000 lasguns firing at 1.000.000 orks. 12.000 > 1 .

im2randomghgh wrote:
No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".

Plus they have the most high-tech battle armour, and the best quality stealth technology of any race, plus they have the most efficient, level-headed military techniques (not tech but thought I'd throw that in) and the best jet packs of anyone. Oh and vespids are fun to paint.

Mankind where more advanced than the Eldar before EoT was born adn they lost all tech. Maybe Tau is better with some things ( like plasma when it comes to safety ), but overall IoM has better tech than the Tau. And now and then they found another STC and their tech improve...

"most high-tech battle armour", sorry but what is then Space Marine power armor?
Ultra-high tech?
"Eldar have the best stealth tech ( never see Tau hide entire city while Eldar conceive entire Craftworld that is size of Earth).
Mankind is fairly know as the greatest military capable race when it comes to tactics and experience and waging war. In 40k and all other universes.
Tau have best jet pack tech, but other races have personal teleporters ( Orks, Necrons, Eldar, IoM ).




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sniperjolly wrote:IoM <2% =P

Compare all the military forces on Armageddon (1st war or 2nd, easily found) with the population of the planet (aprox. 120 billion) The result is really quite pathetic. The IoM, while "there is always war" NEVER aproaches earth levels of militarization as a whole, and hasen't since the Heresy, or possibly the Age of Apostacy.

Scratch that,
IOM <0.1%

40K needs to gets its math straight! Like hell there were 360 million IG on Armageddon, the order of battle lists less than 200 regiments!

I would be scared to see full Imperial mobilization ( if we take they mobilize like we - all man capable to fight in army..), we are talking about billions per planet alone...

im2randomghgh wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, hell even the ORKS have better tech than the Tau.

No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".

Also, the basic infantry rifles for the Tau take a solid slug, and after leaving the barrel, it becomes plasma. No other race (necrons excepted) have anything that can even compare to that.

Plasma isn't nearly as unstable as it is in the tabletop game, and fluffwise the problem comes into play if it's not being fired, because firing it relieves the pressure inside the canister.

And that's not how a pulse rifle works. It excites a small amount of gas and launches it, at which point it magically space magics into plasma.

Plus they have the most high-tech battle armour,

To get the equivalent of power armor they had to make something the size of a dreadnought. That's like what a nineteenth century steam engine is to a modern car.

and the best quality stealth technology of any race,

Eldar.

plus they have the most efficient, level-headed military techniques (not tech but thought I'd throw that in)

Worse than anyone save for Space Marines, anything related to Chaos, Orks, or Tyranids.

and the best jet packs of anyone.

Worse and bulkier than those of any other faction save Orks, wherein the inherent failure and insanity is a purposeful design.

No, the earth caste are not as numerous as you seem to think. They use drones for almost everything, even the basics (farming/agriculture).

The water caste are no more numerous than anyone else.

And no, the support roles in the military are fulfilled by the earth caste. the earth caste are their battlefield technicians, they construct bunkers, work the comms etc.

Pretty much everyone in the Fire Caste IS an infantry man/battlesuit operator. This is not the Guard, where the support roles are members of the regiment.

And I didn't say 80% see the battlefield, 80% influence the battlefield. Ethereals and fire warriors on the front-lines, earth-caste technicians doing repairs, air caste doing bombing runs/naval combat. Only the water caste really doesn't ever step on the field of battle, and even then they still effect it, by bringing over troops from the enemy.

The Tau aren't going to say: We want more diplomats, so no procreation for Fire Warriors for a month! No, they are each subspecies, and regardless of role will reproduce to the same (or similar) numbers.

Either there are vastly different ratios, almost every single fire caste member is employed in a non-military capacity due to not meeting the physical, mental, or psychological requirements to do so, or their entire population is only a few hundred million, if even that. Otherwise their forces would be much, much larger.

1hadhq wrote:
Militarization level:

Necrons 100%

Dubious, as most are hibernating, and the roles beyond warfare aren't detailed; there could well be Necrons that fill non-military maintenance positions.

Demons 100%

Daemons can't really be said to be militarized, and most don't actively concern themselves with the Materium.

Nids 90-100%

They're mindless beasts, so the concept of militarization is sort of a misnomer with them.

Eldar 20-100%

Depends on which eldar. Craftworlders would be somewhere less than 1%, Dark Eldar would be somewhere approaching 100%, and Harlequins are anyone's guess, since they maintain the Black Library and act as intermediaries and a pan-Eldar priest caste, as well as serving on the front lines against Chaos.

Humans 30-70%

~.05%-.1%, which still gives them the largest non-Ork military force population in the galaxy, and the largest united military force.

I completely agree with everything in the above post. The Tau do not have 25 billion Fire Warriors. Thats the end of that. And yes, random you said

im2randomghgh wrote:Everthing accounted for, about 75-80% of the inhabitants of the Tau Empire see the battlefield

nothing about 'influence' there.

Wow, I take some time away from the computer and both sides just SPEW incomplete and/or inaccurate information.

I don't even know where to start!

Let's see: An unguided jump outside the astronomicon's light is limited to 5 LY unless you are attempting suicide by warp jump. (BFG/Rogue Trader) The Tau make shorter hops with smaller ships, but it's implied they can probably make this with a larger one. Typically, the imperium gets around this issue by placing smaller beacons along well known warp routes outside the astronomicon's glow. Previous to the astronimicon and Navigators, human starships used a device known as a void abacus, which allows short journeys through the warp.

On Deathwatch: The entry on the Tau also implies that the worlds they settled on are tainted in some way, with ancient ruins that drive men and Tau mad, so what you see in the Jericho reach might not be a good representation of the Tau in general.

Tau Navy: Their level of power is arguable, since all we really have to go on is BFG, which everyone has been happy to point out is balanced as a game. IA:3 starts the fight off with the Imperials getting a ridiculously lucky shot (behold the power of plot armor) and disabling half the carriers launch bays, and then still getting their teeth kicked in before the carrier goes down. Most of the novels seem to play it vague with naval actions against the Tau, even those that take place on a star ship. We can say that tau ships produced after the Damocles Gulf are now directly comparable to their Imperial counterparts, and they have a very large stockpile of older ships that can field vast numbers of attack craft.

The Lunar Class: Yes, the Lord Daros was built on a Feral world in 11 years, in total defiance of the rest of fluff, basic physics, basic 40k physics, the total lack of a shipyard to build it in, and any explanation at all of where the parts other then raw metal came from. (Because the feral world only provided raw metal. Where things like drives came from, or cogitators, is never explained.) This thing has been brought up in the past, and there are more holes in this story then the Dies Ire put in the Imperial Palace during the siege.

Kill Ships: It should be pointed out that kill ships themselves are tech heresy, no one seems know where they came from, who built them, and the Imperium is terrified that the Tau will take one intact. Oh, and they have only ever been mentioned in the Jericho reach.

Ratio of Tau Castes: Codex Tau Empire does imply that the Tau castes, with the exception of the Ethereals, are roughly equal in number. They are not, however, evenly distributed on every planet, so an 'average' is most likely as close as you'd get to an actual number. As I pointed out earlier, though, the number active fire warriors is more likely around 10 billion.

Forces in the Damocles Gulf: This comes from a variety of sources including Codex: Tau, Codex: Imperial Guard, the Rogue Trader novels, Infantryman's Uplifting Handbook (Damocles Gulf Edition) and White Dwarf.

The Imperium Sending Billions of IG: If the entire rest of the galaxy is at peace, the tyranids slain to the last, and the Eye of Terror and every other warp space hell hole purged, sure.

The Tau being limited to their region of space: Not anymore, as recent Tau drives rival anything the Imperium has for distance.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".

Plus they have the most high-tech battle armour, and the best quality stealth technology of any race, plus they have the most efficient, level-headed military techniques (not tech but thought I'd throw that in) and the best jet packs of anyone. Oh and vespids are fun to paint.

Mankind where more advanced than the Eldar before EoT was born adn they lost all tech. Maybe Tau is better with some things ( like plasma when it comes to safety ), but overall IoM has better tech than the Tau. And now and then they found another STC and their tech improve...

"most high-tech battle armour", sorry but what is then Space Marine power armor?
Ultra-high tech?
"Eldar have the best stealth tech ( never see Tau hide entire city while Eldar conceive entire Craftworld that is size of Earth).
Mankind is fairly know as the greatest military capable race when it comes to tactics and experience and waging war. In 40k and all other universes.
Tau have best jet pack tech, but other races have personal teleporters ( Orks, Necrons, Eldar, IoM ).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

sniperjolly wrote:IoM <2% =P

Compare all the military forces on Armageddon (1st war or 2nd, easily found) with the population of the planet (aprox. 120 billion) The result is really quite pathetic. The IoM, while "there is always war" NEVER aproaches earth levels of militarization as a whole, and hasen't since the Heresy, or possibly the Age of Apostacy.

Scratch that,
IOM <0.1%

40K needs to gets its math straight! Like hell there were 360 million IG on Armageddon, the order of battle lists less than 200 regiments!

I would be scared to see full Imperial mobilization ( if we take they mobilize like we - all man capable to fight in army..), we are talking about billions per planet alone...

Power Armour is nearly as high tech as battle-suits. Not even close.

and 0.1% militarisation is probably right for the IoM.

There are billions of guard, but there are quadrillions of merchants, mechanicus, administratum adepts etc.

BaronIveagh wrote:
The Imperium Sending Billions of IG: If the entire rest of the galaxy is at peace, the tyranids slain to the last, and the Eye of Terror and every other warp space hell hole purged, sure.

The Tau being limited to their region of space: Not anymore, as recent Tau drives rival anything the Imperium has for distance.

Imperium armed forces are using only 0.5 - 1% of the entire population. I don't see why don't they send billions of Gurdsman from a worlds not touched by war ( and those worlds are making 70% of the Imperium ).

Let's see: Kronus, Kaurava, Targa, Nibosa... I saw their rivalry there...

Citation on new Tau Drives please. Without it that is BS.

Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Plasma isn't nearly as unstable as it is in the tabletop game, and fluffwise the problem comes into play if it's not being fired, because firing it relieves the pressure inside the canister.

And that's not how a pulse rifle works. It excites a small amount of gas and launches it, at which point it magically space magics into plasma.

Actually according to Rogue trader, at least with imperial plasma, it's a magnetic packet containing a chunk of plasma. Range would be based on how long the packet holds together before dissipating. Overheating would be an issue as the interior of a plasmagun is not a vacuum.

From the description, the pulse rifle bypasses the problem by causing the particles to change state during firing from solid to plasma. What process this uses, I have no idea.


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iproxtaco wrote:Citation on new Tau Drives please. Without it that is BS.

IA:3, BFG FAQ 2010 People need to pay attention, this has already been questioned and sourced twice now in this thread.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Power Armour is nearly as high tech as battle-suits. Not even close.

and 0.1% militarisation is probably right for the IoM.

There are billions of guard, but there are quadrillions of merchants, mechanicus, administratum adepts etc.

Terminator armor, Custodes armor, Grey Knights armor... Yeah, not even close...

Imperium needs to use 10% to defeat most of it's foes in battle. Most of those people are farmers or merchants.
Overall, they can crush Tau with sheer numbers if they wanted...


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BaronIveagh wrote:As I pointed out earlier, though, the number active fire warriors is more likely around 10 billion.

Only? That is pitiful. One major Tyranid invasion and let's move out...

Thinking Power Armour is less advanced than Battlesuits is just delusional. Preparing Evidence! Load batteries and launch interceptors!

Brother Coa wrote:
Terminator armor, Custodes armor, Grey Knights armor... Yeah, not even close...

Imperium needs to use 10% to defeat most of it's foes in battle. Most of those people are farmers or merchants.
Overall, they can crush Tau with sheer numbers if they wanted...

The problem is those armors are not mass produced, and every one lost is a blow to the Imperium. Compare the standard tau battle armor to the Imperial tshirt.

And when was the last time the custodes left terra? Because I think it's been about 10,000 years. Grey Knights = 1k units.


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iproxtaco wrote:Thinking Power Armour is less advanced than Battlesuits is just delusional.

marks 1-5 are inferior to Tau. Marks 6, 7, 8 are superior, but vastly less common then tau battle armor. The majority of Imperial power armor BESIDES space marine armor actually *is* inferior to Tau.

BaronIveagh wrote:
The problem is those armors are not mass produced, and every one lost is a blow to the Imperium. Compare the standard tau battle armor to the Imperial tshirt.

And when was the last time the custodes left terra? Because I think it's been about 10,000 years. Grey Knights = 1k units.

And Tau are mass producing theirs? On one Tau comes average 100 Guardsman. Even if they have 1+ Armor save they would be killed.
And I am only pointing that Imperium have more advanced armor than Tau. We can compare Astartes PA Mark 8 if you want. And TDA to...

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Terminator armor, Custodes armor, Grey Knights armor... Yeah, not even close...

Imperium needs to use 10% to defeat most of it's foes in battle. Most of those people are farmers or merchants.
Overall, they can crush Tau with sheer numbers if they wanted...

The problem is those armors are not mass produced, and every one lost is a blow to the Imperium. Compare the standard tau battle armor to the Imperial tshirt.

And when was the last time the custodes left terra? Because I think it's been about 10,000 years. Grey Knights = 1k units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Thinking Power Armour is less advanced than Battlesuits is just delusional.

marks 1-5 are inferior to Tau. Marks 6, 7, 8 are superior, but vastly less common then tau battle armor.

He's saying it's more advanced. Battlesuits are better in that they are easier to manufacture and distribute, but they are not as technologically advanced as a suit of Power armour.

BaronIveagh wrote:The majority of Imperial power armor BESIDES space marine armor actually *is* inferior to Tau.

What about SoB? And Skitarii? and Stormtroopers?

Brother Coa wrote:
Only? That is pitiful. One major Tyranid invasion and let's move out...

It's, um.. twice the IG for the Macharian Crusade.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Only? That is pitiful. One major Tyranid invasion and let's move out...

It's, um.. twice the IG for the Macharian Crusade.

Like I said, one major Tyranid invasion ( like Leviathan ) or Necron uprising and let's move on...

Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:The majority of Imperial power armor BESIDES space marine armor actually *is* inferior to Tau.

What about SoB? And Skitarii? and Stormtroopers?

'

Inferior, Inferior (for the few that wear it), and not power armor. (ST's wear carapace)

The inner workings of Sororitas armor are comparatively simple due to their late manufacture, with only the power plant reasonable complex. (Current) Skitari rarely wear power armor, being already more heavily armored then most power armor would provide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:
Only? That is pitiful. One major Tyranid invasion and let's move out...

It's, um.. twice the IG for the Macharian Crusade.

Like I said, one major Tyranid invasion ( like Leviathan ) or Necron uprising and let's move on...

Then the Imperium is one nid invasion or necron uprising and then let's move on. Since the Macharian Crusade was the largest military mobilization the Imperium has attempted since the Great Crusade.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:The majority of Imperial power armor BESIDES space marine armor actually *is* inferior to Tau.

What about SoB? And Skitarii? and Stormtroopers?

'

Inferior, Inferior (for the few that wear it), and not power armor. (ST's wear carapace)

The inner workings of Sororitas armor are comparatively simple due to their late manufacture, with only the power plant reasonable complex. (Current) Skitari rarely wear power armor, being already more heavily armored then most power armor would provide.

Celestian armor in inferior?
Skitarii are like machines.
Kasrkins wear advanced model of carapace armor.

Compare them in miniature version. Take Armor save.

BaronIveagh wrote:Wow, I take some time away from the computer and both sides just SPEW incomplete and/or inaccurate information.

I don't even know where to start!

Let's see: An unguided jump outside the astronomicon's light is limited to 5 LY unless you are attempting suicide by warp jump. (BFG/Rogue Trader) The Tau make shorter hops with smaller ships, but it's implied they can probably make this with a larger one. Typically, the imperium gets around this issue by placing smaller beacons along well known warp routes outside the astronomicon's glow. Previous to the astronimicon and Navigators, human starships used a device known as a void abacus, which allows short journeys through the warp.

On Deathwatch: The entry on the Tau also implies that the worlds they settled on are tainted in some way, with ancient ruins that drive men and Tau mad, so what you see in the Jericho reach might not be a good representation of the Tau in general.

Tau Navy: Their level of power is arguable, since all we really have to go on is BFG, which everyone has been happy to point out is balanced as a game. IA:3 starts the fight off with the Imperials getting a ridiculously lucky shot (behold the power of plot armor) and disabling half the carriers launch bays, and then still getting their teeth kicked in before the carrier goes down. Most of the novels seem to play it vague with naval actions against the Tau, even those that take place on a star ship. We can say that tau ships produced after the Damocles Gulf are now directly comparable to their Imperial counterparts, and they have a very large stockpile of older ships that can field vast numbers of attack craft.

The Lunar Class: Yes, the Lord Daros was built on a Feral world in 11 years, in total defiance of the rest of fluff, basic physics, basic 40k physics, the total lack of a shipyard to build it in, and any explanation at all of where the parts other then raw metal came from. (Because the feral world only provided raw metal. Where things like drives came from, or cogitators, is never explained.) This thing has been brought up in the past, and there are more holes in this story then the Dies Ire put in the Imperial Palace during the siege.

Kill Ships: It should be pointed out that kill ships themselves are tech heresy, no one seems know where they came from, who built them, and the Imperium is terrified that the Tau will take one intact. Oh, and they have only ever been mentioned in the Jericho reach.

Ratio of Tau Castes: Codex Tau Empire does imply that the Tau castes, with the exception of the Ethereals, are roughly equal in number. They are not, however, evenly distributed on every planet, so an 'average' is most likely as close as you'd get to an actual number. As I pointed out earlier, though, the number active fire warriors is more likely around 10 billion.

Forces in the Damocles Gulf: This comes from a variety of sources including Codex: Tau, Codex: Imperial Guard, the Rogue Trader novels, Infantryman's Uplifting Handbook (Damocles Gulf Edition) and White Dwarf.

The Imperium Sending Billions of IG: If the entire rest of the galaxy is at peace, the tyranids slain to the last, and the Eye of Terror and every other warp space hell hole purged, sure.

The Tau being limited to their region of space: Not anymore, as recent Tau drives rival anything the Imperium has for distance.

+1!

No, no +15!

except with the number of Fire Warriors, as with Tau, they age at an advanced rate (full maturity at 10 standard terran years) and they are often promoted solely on how long they have managed to survive on the battlefield (and if they went through all the training courses) so the older firewarriors would still fight, as a Shas'O will always fight in a battlesuit, and physical frailty wouldn't affect them.

The very oldest FWs (~40 years) like Puretide become instructors, but I doubt that 15/25 FW are retired...

Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:The majority of Imperial power armor BESIDES space marine armor actually *is* inferior to Tau.

What about SoB? And Skitarii? and Stormtroopers?

'

Inferior, Inferior (for the few that wear it), and not power armor. (ST's wear carapace)

The inner workings of Sororitas armor are comparatively simple due to their late manufacture, with only the power plant reasonable complex. (Current) Skitari rarely wear power armor, being already more heavily armored then most power armor would provide.

Celestian armor in inferior?
Skitarii are like machines.
Kasrkins wear advanced model of carapace armor.

Compare them in miniature version. Take Armor save.

Armor save is due to game balance, not actual protection. Check the differences between power armor and carapace in Rogue Trader, where game balance is less of an issue.

You're assuming that Game Balance on the table top equates fluff.

It's in the codex, so it counts.
Stormtroopers have 4+, unlike Guardsman who have 5+. So they ahve advanced armor.
How much Armor save have Fire Warriors and SoB Celestians?
( Space Marines have 3+, so Tau FW should have like Stormtroopers 4+ ).

im2randomghgh wrote:
The very oldest FWs (~40 years) like Puretide become instructors, but I doubt that 15/25 FW are retired...

Factor in females giving birth and raising children.

Frankly, talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade is impossible because things have been contradicted with every release.

The Nimbosa Reclamation alone has quite a few holes.

Brother Coa wrote:It's in the codex, so it counts.
Stormtroopers have 4+, unlike Guardsman who have 5+. So they ahve advanced armor.
How much Armor save have Fire Warriors and SoB Celestians?
( Space Marines have 3+, so Tau FW should have like Stormtroopers 4+ ).

If you check out the other books, they don't match up. Statlines in the codex are game balance. Unless you're saying that 25 space marines = 40 IG.

That's why the Tau navy issue won't go away, is we have so little direct comparison outside of statlines.


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Kanluwen wrote:Frankly, talking about the Damocles Gulf Crusade is impossible because things have been contradicted with every release.

The Nimbosa Reclamation alone has quite a few holes.

Agreed. GW really needs a setting bible. The dates of the Crusade even chance, varying between 20 and 200 years in the past.

There, Celestians have 3+ like Marines. And even ordinary sisters have 3+.

So Tau FW have armor like Imperial Stormtroopers.

Brother Coa wrote:There, Celestians have 3+ like Marines. And even ordinary sisters have 3+.

So Tau FW have armor like Imperial Stormtroopers.

That's because for points cost they need to be more survivable. Again, Fluff does not equal game balance.

BaronIveagh wrote:
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iproxtaco wrote:Thinking Power Armour is less advanced than Battlesuits is just delusional.

marks 1-5 are inferior to Tau. Marks 6, 7, 8 are superior, but vastly less common then tau battle armor. The majority of Imperial power armor BESIDES space marine armor actually *is* inferior to Tau.

I would argue that point.

Battlesuits are like what dreadnoughts would be if they were ninjas.

You can't really compare them though; battlesuits would probably be walkers if it weren't for game mechanics, in savage scars, nine XV88s were on a hill, and four bombers attacked the hill, and four (?) survived.


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BaronIveagh wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
The very oldest FWs (~40 years) like Puretide become instructors, but I doubt that 15/25 FW are retired...

Factor in females giving birth and raising children.

DAMN YOU LOGIC!

BaronIveagh wrote:
If you check out the other books, they don't match up. Statlines in the codex are game balance. Unless you're saying that 25 space marines = 40 IG.

It is like that, if SM are tactical and they are fighting highly trained Imperial Troops for example. Their armor will save them but some of then will surly die.
In almost every outcome Guardsman die from one bullet wound ( 5+ is a bitch ). Marine is therefore very hard to kill ( 3+ is a blessing ). SO I am saying that is somewhat true. ( except for specialist like BT CC squads, Terminators or Assault Marines ).


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BaronIveagh wrote:Again, Fluff does not equal game balance.

In witch rulebook is that stated? Or codex?

Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
If you check out the other books, they don't match up. Statlines in the codex are game balance. Unless you're saying that 25 space marines = 40 IG.

It is like that, if SM are tactical and they are fighting highly trained Imperial Troops for example. Their armor will save them but some of then will surly die.
In almost every outcome Guardsman die from one bullet wound ( 5+ is a bitch ). Marine is therefore very hard to kill ( 3+ is a blessing ). SO I am saying that is somewhat true. ( except for specialist like BT CC squads, Terminators or Assault Marines ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, Fluff does not equal game balance.

In witch rulebook is that stated? Or codex?

in that 1 astartes is supposed to be worth 100 men, but is worth nothing like that on the TT.

Brother Coa wrote:

BaronIveagh wrote:
If you check out the other books, they don't match up. Statlines in the codex are game balance. Unless you're saying that 25 space marines = 40 IG.

It is like that, if SM are tactical and they are fighting highly trained Imperial Troops for example. Their armor will save them but some of then will surly die.
In almost every outcome Guardsman die from one bullet wound ( 5+ is a bitch ). Marine is therefore very hard to kill ( 3+ is a blessing ). SO I am saying that is somewhat true. ( except for specialist like BT CC squads, Terminators or Assault Marines ).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, Fluff does not equal game balance.

In witch rulebook is that stated? Or codex?

It isn't stated, its logical common sense. Do you want you're hundred man Imperial Guard army slaughtered by a single tactical squad? That would make for a very boring and fast game. No one would want to play that. They have no balance it out.