Kanluwen wrote:
Seeker Missiles aren't JDAMs or GPS guided bombs. They require the coordinates to be 'marked', triggering the drone brain to activate.
And I said nothing about Preysight. It'd be useful, but the Astartes have just as capable infiltrators and recon units in the form of their Scouts.
You're under-estimating the area they're searching. Cities are really big, and space marines hve a finite number of scouts. No matter how good they are, they can only really check out the most likely spots.
Kanluwen wrote:
You're discounting them firing. They need to 'brace' properly, and the recoil would be what's going to cause structural defects.
We don't know enough about the inner workings of Tau mag propulsion weapons to make that argument. Depending on how they work and how large the actual projectile is, the recoil could be huge. Or nearly non-existant. I would suggest thathte recaoil is actually farly light due to the length of the barrel (longer barrel in gauss weapons = slower accelleration = lower recoil. Usually)
Kanluwen wrote:
Which is why you don't run straight through shouting "WEEE!".
You ram the corners of the building.
And now that's the direction the building will most likely fall in. Gravity. Like Payback, it's a Bitch.
iproxtaco wrote:This is not an normal tank though. ITS A LAND RAIDER.
Firstly, it's off before the building completely falls on it.
Secondly, it could probably hold the massive amount of weight.
Thirdly, Kanwulen is talking about knocking out the corners. The majority of the buildings mass will not fall on the Land Raider even if it stays still.
Somehow, I doubt gravity cares much what it's called.
Assuming that you don't lose a tred or damage a drive wheel ramming the building, you will not be able to accelerate away fast enough to avoid the building falling. No matter what you may have seen in movies. Two, you fail to grasp the kind of massive weight a building has. 5k cubic feet of granite facing alone weighs almost 400 tonnes, or four times the weight of the landraider. And that's falling on it from a height.
Thirdly, it doesn't have to have the whole mass of the building fall on it.
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Grey Templar wrote:
look at this link
i clearly see Rail guns mentioned as being standard armament.
On Tau ships they are. You might notice that a few eldar weapons are scattered in there too. It's talking about 'weapon batteries' which as it says, in BFG is a catch all term for a certain class of starship weapon, much as Heavy, Assault, Blast, are in 40k.
iproxtaco wrote:That's probably it. The Tau have created their railguns from scratch. The Mechanicum just know how to make ship-borne ones probably due to some old document or STC they've found. Understanding Tau tech will likely help the sane members help the Imperium as a whole.
If anything, the Tau agricultural tech might lead to a bit of improvement into the lives of the average Imperium citizen.
I think it's also a case of improvement vs. innovation. Humanity is more likely to work on upgrading a current technology, and the Tau are more likely to develop a new technology.
Good observation. The Imperium has many better technologies that are more advanced, but the Tau will invent new things all the time, like Ion cannons and drones. The Imperium would never even consider it on a large scale but they should invest more in imitating their enemies, rather than leaving it up to the Mechanicum to do hoard all their tech.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Which raises the question: 'Why not walk/drive away from the Terminator?' Since they can't run or dodge. Which means outside of a turn based table top game, they're useless against tanks or armored vehicles, since those tend to move at a fairly good clip in combat. Sure, if it's parked the Termi works well...
Given the Terminator's speed, the crisis suit would have to stand there and let them close.
Ahem, personal teleporter....
Fixed...
Anyway why are you still stuck to the topic. BT would lose but not before dealing serious blow to the several Tau septs.
Imperium tech is not that much better than a Tau when it comes to some things, but they compensate with manpower and using covers.
Tau are smart to, they know they cannot win against Imperium in the long run so they are playing tactic " we give them idea, and if they accept it we will help them defend".
In the end nothing really matters, they will never advance the storyline. Or they would but thing will be focused on the Emperor's death and the star child theory. While Tau will seat on their end of the Galaxy, not knowing that universe may end that day.
And even if they advance, Tau would probably gain more worlds - they Tyranids and Imperial would attack it at the same time. And in the end they would retreat to the original 26 septs barely surviving the Tyranid incursion. But they would never get destroyed because of one thing - GW. Tau are just to awesome to do that, they have nice background, good ideals and excellent tactics.
And the main reason people are hating Tau is not because the Tau itself - it's because of a people. They are almost all like: "Look at me, I have a rail rifle. I can totally blow up that Battleship from orbit" or "Look at me , I got a pulse rifle, I can totally stand up all night and shot down all that 1 million Guardsman that outnumber me" and that kind of stuff.
But in the end, we know that Imperium is still the strongest and it will always be. And here is one reason why:
Notice the Imperial eagle in headline? IoM is the heart of Warhammer 40000, and always will be. Even in fluff, it's matter now how many fire they throw at the Imperium. GW writers always find a way to present victory to it.
iproxtaco wrote:
Good observation. The Imperium has many better technologies that are more advanced, but the Tau will invent new things all the time, like Ion cannons and drones. The Imperium would never even consider it on a large scale but they should invest more in imitating their enemies, rather than leaving it up to the Mechanicum to do hoard all their tech.
I think you guys are forgeting a key point: IoM has forgotten the principals behind thier own technology. So they'ed want the Tau's because someone else has already done the work of creating a man portable version.
And, Two, he misread that, it's talking about weapon batteries from all sorts of races, it just mentions that the Imperium studs their ships with guns.
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Brother Coa wrote:
Ahem, personal teleporters that Terminators can't use....
Although being a tau loyalist, i'd have to say quite fast. The only reason they are not extinct yet is because the warp saved them from the imperium's might while they just discovered fire.
daemon wrote:Although being a tau loyalist, i'd have to say quite fast. The only reason they are not extinct yet is because the warp saved them from the imperium's might while they just discovered fire.
Or the Eldar. Or the Emperor.
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Brother Coa wrote:
But in the end, we know that Imperium is still the strongest and it will always be. And here is one reason why:
GW writers always find a way to present victory to it as long as Space Marines outsell other minis and as soon as they don't, 40k will be about whatever is selling best now.
What's your point Brother Coa? We know that GW concentrates on the Imperium, but this ENTIRE thread is HYPOTHETICAL. This is not likely going to happen and is not happening now, but we're debating it like it is, else there would be discussion.
My point is that Tau would be defeated if we launch a full Crusade force against it.
But that will never happened because GW won't allow it...
There is no point in debating "we would win" or "they would win" because each side is supporting it's own...
In the end, it's GW who will have the last laugh...
Why is there no point? Arguments arise because people want to try and persuade the other side, I enjoy arguments like this, especially about the stuff I'm in to. Does that mean there's no point in any argument or debate?
Again, this is HYPOTHETICAL.
Here's a point, I've revised my position and changed my opinions. Clearly the argument has a point.
Without sufficient back-up from Guard Regiments, a large number of IN ships and a large number of Titans, more than just Warhounds, and actual SUPPORT to not become over-drawn, The Black Templars would fail. Given enough help, then yes, they could, but not by themselves, not the whole empire anyway.
BaronIveagh wrote:Kill Ships: It should be pointed out that kill ships themselves are tech heresy, no one seems know where they came from, who built them, and the Imperium is terrified that the Tau will take one intact. Oh, and they have only ever been mentioned in the Jericho reach.
The same way that the new Tau drives are only mentioned in the BFGFAQ you referenced? Besides, why would it be tech heresy? It's not like they're sentient. I'll give you the "terrified to lose one" part though, the loss of a DAoT relic wouldn't be very well recieved.
im2randomghgh wrote:
AlmightyWalrus wrote:the Imperium of Man, Dark Eldar, hell even the ORKS have better tech than the Tau.
No, they don't. Tau seem to be the only people in the galaxy who have realised that "oo, plasma guns kill you sometimes, maybe we should fix ours so they dont do that".
The Imperium knows, but doesn't care. They trade power for risk. Manpower can be replaced. And you conveniently left out the part about Imperial plasma being more powerful than the Tau equivalent.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
So it's heavier, bulkier, clumsier, requires a massive jetpack to move at any reasonable rate, provides inferior protection, and yet is supposed to be more advanced? Imperial tech is all from a period of human history that makes the stagnating, slow to adapt Tau look like chimpanzees who've just discovered that a stick can be used to fish for termites. The lowest piece of Imperial technology is more advanced than anything the Tau will ever conceive of, considering that everything down the common lasgun has a "machine spirit" capable of self-repair if it's so much as asked nicely in the right language.
Um... you need to put the obscura pipe down if you think the lasgun is self repairing.
Every piece of Imperial tech has a machine spirit in it. A techpriest can repair something by asking it nicely to fix itself (or, more reasonably, telling it how to repair itself).
Actually, the tau crisis suit is much more nimble then the Terminator suit, has superior firepower, superior ammunition storage, is faster, and lacks the penalties to dexterity that the Termiator armor suffers from. The Terminator offers superior protection, but at the cost of being a standing target.
And that's despite the tau suit being bulkier.
I'm not sure where you're getting the terminator bit from; I was talking about basic power armor. It's a forth the weight with a giant mutant inside, provides superior protection, and is only slightly less agile than a normal human. A crisis suit is the size of a dreadnought, is slow and clumsy on foot, requires a giant jetpack to move around, and requires a clumsier, even more unstable version of the tech the Imperium reserves for its titans, which have more to do with spirituality and symbolism than practical concerns. A broadside is larger, heavier, has a small artillery piece mounted on it, and makes terminator armor look speedy and graceful by comparison.
Don't get me wrong, they're probably more useful than power or terminator armor, but they are comparatively primitive in design and quality. I'm not going to contest that Tau could run circles around Marines, but they're still less advanced. The tech used by Marines is absurdly advanced, but also hideously impractical, not all that useful in the first place, and so rare as to be completely irrelevant.
I can't remember if I made the point earlier, but on topic I can't see the Black Templars successfully doing anything to the Tau; not because the Tau have any real military capability in the grand scale of things, but because Space Marines are irrelevantly small, tactically challenged, strategically deficient, and equipped with shiny but ultimately pointless equipment.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:I can't remember if I made the point earlier, but on topic I can't see the Black Templars successfully doing anything to the Tau; not because the Tau have any real military capability in the grand scale of things, but because Space Marines are irrelevantly small, tactically challenged, strategically deficient, and equipped with shiny but ultimately pointless equipment.
Just sayin', Helbrecht beat back the space-part of the largest Ork Waaagh! since Ullanor. The man clearly knows what he's doing. Sure, he had Battlefleet Armageddon at his disposal, but he obviously had sufficient grasp of tactics.
That's the most wildly opinionated and ludicrous idea I've seen on these forums. You know nothing about 40k if you think Space Marines are irrelevant and tactically deficient.
iproxtaco wrote:That's the most wildly opinionated and ludicrous idea I've seen on these forums. You know nothing about 40k if you think Space Marines are irrelevant and tactically deficient.
They make up less than one ten millionth of the Imperial ground forces. They're significantly rarer than main battle tanks, somewhat rarer than superheavy tanks, and potentially outnumbered by the titans on Mars alone. They become even smaller and less relevant when you factor the Imperial navy into the picture, where they're outnumbered by warships capable of reducing vast swathes of a planet to a charred wasteland in a matter of days. The "grossly incompetent" part is probably more GW writers having no clue what they're writing about and so favoring Hollywood Tactics and Plot Armor over any manner of reason, but it still adds a nice bit of snap to a laundry list of their flaws.
They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles. They are used for pin-point threats and for breaking enemies the Guard cannot, for whatever reason. Whey the Guard runs into difficulty, they call the Astartes for very obvious reasons. There are 1.2 million Space Marines, are you saying there are potentially more than that number of TITANS on ONE PLANET? Chapter Masters are arguably the greatest tacticians in the Imperium, there are countless stories to back this up. Non-BL ones of course, they really don't quite comprehend what they're talking about most of the time. When described again and again in cannon as the greatest warriors man has ever had, why would you write them as blundering idiots? It irritates me. Their equipment is some of the most advanced technology that the IOM has to offer. Power armour improves nearly everything about them, dexterity and speed obviously the ones it hinders.
Their weapons are many times more destructive than the Guards. All their gear is perfect for their role. They are genetically engineered to be strong, fast, tough and smart, as well as long lived and loyal (although you could easily counter me on that one). Destructive power is not everything. The Imperium wants to keep its worlds at all costs. Space Marines are VASTLY superior to a ship used to bombard a planet until there is nothing left. The Marines will not damage the infrastructure of a planet in any where near how an orbital scouring will.
On Tau ships they are. You might notice that a few eldar weapons are scattered in there too. It's talking about 'weapon batteries' which as it says, in BFG is a catch all term for a certain class of starship weapon, much as Heavy, Assault, Blast, are in 40k.
actually,
on Tau ship profiles they don't call their weapons batteries "weapons batteries"
they call them Railgun batteries(which count as weapons batteries for all purposes"
if there are railguns described under the Weapons Batteries page on Lexicanum then they MUST be non-tau railguns.
iproxtaco wrote:They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles.
Stormtroopers fill almost all of the roles short of "giant shock troops running across open ground screaming" better, and for that the guard have ogryn.
They are used for pin-point threats and for breaking enemies the Guard cannot, for whatever reason. Whey the Guard runs into difficulty, they call the Astartes for very obvious reasons.
No one calls on Astartes, they just show up to smash things, and everyone just kind of rolls with it and works around them.
There are 1.2 million Space Marines, are you saying there are potentially more than that number of TITANS on ONE PLANET?
On Mars? Possibly. Aren't something like half of all Imperial Titans stationed on Mars? If not, they're at worst about even with machines that rival an entire company in firepower, and certainly outnumbered if counting Knights alongside the Titans proper. You're also magicking in an extra two hundred thousand Marines there.
Chapter Masters are arguably the greatest tacticians in the Imperium, there are countless stories to back this up. Non-BL ones of course, they really don't quite comprehend what they're talking about most of the time.
Just to pull something off the top of my head, Calgar. He bungles the defense of Macragge, sends his Marines away to hide in their fortresses, where they die taking with them but a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions, walks into a trap, gets carried away on a stretcher, rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap, gets saved at the last minute by the Navy, and then goes back to Macragge to find his Marines dead and the Tyranids broken by the conventional forces he abandoned, once his deleterious influence was removed from the chain of command. He gets credited with a victory he did everything in his power to sabotage.
When described again and again in cannon as the greatest warriors man has ever had, why would you write them as blundering idiots? It irritates me.
They're like Ogryn, only less useful, intelligent, and hygienic.
Their equipment is some of the most advanced technology that the IOM has to offer. Power armour improves nearly everything about them, dexterity and speed obviously the ones it hinders.
Their weapons are many times more destructive than the Guards. All their gear is perfect for their role. They are genetically engineered to be strong, fast, tough and smart, as well as long lived and loyal (although you could easily counter me on that one).
It's advanced yes, but it's also hideously inefficient and altogether less useful than what the Guard uses.
Destructive power is not everything. The Imperium wants to keep its worlds at all costs. Space Marines are VASTLY superior to a ship used to bombard a planet until there is nothing left. The Marines will not damage the infrastructure of a planet in any where near how an orbital scouring will.
I was just making a point that they're rarer than things with a greater destructive power than an entire chapter worth of Marines.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles.
Stormtroopers fill almost all of the roles short of "giant shock troops running across open ground screaming" better, and for that the guard have ogryn.
No, they really don't. They are not as well trained, disciplined, armoured, armed, physically capable or tactically proficient. Ogryns? HA! Why the hell would you ever think that?
No one calls on Astartes, they just show up to smash things, and everyone just kind of rolls with it and works around them.
Oh yes, the Guard regularly call on the Space Marines to help them.
On Mars? Possibly. Aren't something like half of all Imperial Titans stationed on Mars? If not, they're at worst about even with machines that rival an entire company in firepower, and certainly outnumbered if counting Knights alongside the Titans proper. You're also magicking in an extra two hundred thousand Marines there.
Its a rough estimation. There are over 1000 chapters, each carrying on average, a little more than 1000 marines. Factoring in the other chapters like the Space Wolves, Black Templars and other similar chapters who deviate, you get around 1.1-1.2 million Marines throughout the Imperium. I checked Lexicanum, is states that each Titan Legion is based on an individual Forge World, with Worlds sometimes containing several. Mars, being the most important Forge World and home of the Mechanicum, I would ASSUME has hundreds, possibly about 200 legions at most. 200 times 50 is about 10,000 Titans of varying types. Knights will be a lot more numerous but I couldn't find any figures.
Just to pull something off the top of my head, Calgar. He bungles the defense of Macragge, sends his Marines away to hide in their fortresses, where they die taking with them but a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions, walks into a trap, gets carried away on a stretcher, rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap, gets saved at the last minute by the Navy, and then goes back to Macragge to find his Marines dead and the Tyranids broken by the conventional forces he abandoned, once his deleterious influence was removed from the chain of command. He gets credited with a victory he did everything in his power to sabotage.
Calgar is one Chapter Master who didn't really bungle the defence at all. He managed to counter THE SWARMLORD, and actually managed to defeat the fleet. The hordes at the northern and southern fortresses were decimated, I have the Tyranid 5th ed here, no where does it say there were BILLIONS of Tyranids left. The first company fought to the man and succeeded in breaking the Tyranids that assailed them. Then you've got other Chapter Masters, like Helbrecht, Kantor and Dante, all regarded as masters of command.
They're like Ogryn, only less useful, intelligent, and hygienic.
I hope that's a joke.
It's advanced yes, but it's also hideously inefficient and altogether less useful than what the Guard uses.
No, not at all. If they were inefficient and less useful than Guard Weapons, they would simply use Guard Weapons, they're in plentiful supply. They are the best weapons for the Space Marines role as Close Range heavy infantry support, spearhead forces and pin-point strike squads to take out important targets. Horus Rising is the best book I've read which accurately portrays what GW repeatedly says Space Marines are : the most elite and powerful force the Imperium can muster.
I was just making a point that they're rarer than things with a greater destructive power than an entire chapter worth of Marines.
WTF is this thread still oing on about?! NO! Being stupid heavy and as big as a dreadnought while STILL only having the protection of a PA Marine is not a good thing! It is HUGE, HEAVY, and you use "Crisis Suits weigh more=better protection!" as an argument, when the entire topic is IF THE IMPERIUM NOTICES THE TAU, THEY ARE BONED.
Futhermore, they are by far the least significant playable race included in 40K, and YES, I include the SM spinoffs. The Tau have a PATHETIC manufacturing base, and naval force when compared to say, Ultramar. I would like to see the Tau punch out Hive Fleet Behemoth. It would be hillarious. You make it seem like the Tau are a major player, let alone a genuine threat. THEY AREN'T. The Divisio Mandati curbstomps pocket empires like this once a week. The amount of Fanboism in this thread amuses me greatly.
But Hey, guess what, the Tau will continue to grow relative to the other minor threats now that they have their own book and vocal fanbase, and GW will never (again) wipe a playble race from the game. So congrats, Tau fanboys, you have a friend in the GW codex biz. Now maybe they could convince their boss to let them write that book.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:They are low in numbers, but they are many more times effective than an Imperial Guard force in their respective roles.
Stormtroopers fill almost all of the roles short of "giant shock troops running across open ground screaming" better, and for that the guard have ogryn.
No, they really don't. They are not as well trained,
Decades of intense training; there's only so much experience one can gain before it all just blends into a plateau of "superhuman".
disciplined,
Not a word I'd use to describe giant mutants whose only purpose in life is to run at things screaming and wildly firing their weapons.
armoured,
Stormtroopers aren't ten feet of clanking metal that's too clumsy to get behind cover or not attract every gun within several kilometers.
armed,
Hellgun > gyrojet's tipped with firecrackers.
physically capable
The whole point of guns is to kill something without having to walk up and punch it, power armor restricts speed and agility, and neither Stormtroopers nor Marines are appropriate to use in extended operations, due to their small numbers and limited ammunition.
or tactically proficient.
Never seen anything to suggest they have even the most rudimentary grasp of tactics.
Ogryns? HA! Why the hell would you ever think that?
Space Marines are decent shock troops. Ogryns are better shock troops, on account of being bigger, stronger, and even more expendable.
No one calls on Astartes, they just show up to smash things, and everyone just kind of rolls with it and works around them.
Oh yes, the Guard regularly call on the Space Marines to help them.
Never seen a reference to them actually being asked to join in, they just sort of hear that something's going on and invite themselves, or drag along conventional forces to do all the heavy lifting (also all the actual work outside dramatic posing).
On Mars? Possibly. Aren't something like half of all Imperial Titans stationed on Mars? If not, they're at worst about even with machines that rival an entire company in firepower, and certainly outnumbered if counting Knights alongside the Titans proper. You're also magicking in an extra two hundred thousand Marines there.
Its a rough estimation. There are over 1000 chapters, each carrying on average, a little more than 1000 marines. Factoring in the other chapters like the Space Wolves, Black Templars and other similar chapters who deviate, you get around 1.1-1.2 million Marines throughout the Imperium.
Around one thousand chapters, each limited to a maximum of one thousand, and a handful of treasonous chapters who flout Imperial authority, but don't really make enough trouble to be worth exterminating.
Just to pull something off the top of my head, Calgar. He bungles the defense of Macragge, sends his Marines away to hide in their fortresses, where they die taking with them but a few thousand of a swarm numbering in the billions, walks into a trap, gets carried away on a stretcher, rushes the naval assets under his command into a trap, gets saved at the last minute by the Navy, and then goes back to Macragge to find his Marines dead and the Tyranids broken by the conventional forces he abandoned, once his deleterious influence was removed from the chain of command. He gets credited with a victory he did everything in his power to sabotage.
Calgar is one Chapter Master who didn't really bungle the defence at all. He managed to counter THE SWARMLORD, and actually managed to defeat the fleet. The hordes at the northern and southern fortresses were decimated, I have the Tyranid 5th ed here, no where does it say there were BILLIONS of Tyranids left. The first company fought to the man and succeeded in breaking the Tyranids that assailed them. Then you've got other Chapter Masters, like Helbrecht, Kantor and Dante, all regarded as masters of command.
He was outsmarted by a mindless beast, albeit one with quickly evolving instinct.
They're like Ogryn, only less useful, intelligent, and hygienic.
I hope that's a joke.
It's advanced yes, but it's also hideously inefficient and altogether less useful than what the Guard uses.
No, not at all. If they were inefficient and less useful than Guard Weapons, they would simply use Guard Weapons, they're in plentiful supply.
What they use, they do so for largely symbolic, traditional reasons. Bolters are ridiculous weapons to use in any capacity, at least next to lasguns, and each suit of power armor requires more of an investment of time and resources than an entire regiment of Guard's worth of flak armor.
They are the best weapons for the Space Marines role as Close Range heavy infantry support, spearhead forces and pin-point strike squads to take out important targets. Horus Rising is the best book I've read which accurately portrays what GW repeatedly says Space Marines are : the most elite and powerful force the Imperium can muster.
Prior to the Horus Heresy, they were. They've just gone downhill since, while the Guard quickly found the ideal equipment for waging an actual war, and has been learning from every engagement since.
I was just making a point that they're rarer than things with a greater destructive power than an entire chapter worth of Marines.
Again, pure destructive power is not everything.
No, but it's telling in regards to the overall scale of things.
sniperjolly wrote:WTF is this thread still oing on about?! NO! Being stupid heavy and as big as a dreadnought while STILL only having the protection of a PA Marine is not a good thing! It is HUGE, HEAVY, and you use "Crisis Suits weigh more=better protection!" as an argument, when the entire topic is IF THE IMPERIUM NOTICES THE TAU, THEY ARE BONED.
I don't think anyone ever said anything like that; there was mention that the material is vastly different and the current fluff indicates that crisis suit protection is somewhere between a terminator and power armor. They function somewhat like dreadnoughts in that they have an enclosed cockpit and carry heavy, support weapons.
Stop, take a breath and re-read the title of the thread. The hypothetical premise here is what if a lone space marine chapter were to assault the Tau Empire. I believe no one has questioned what would happen if the IoM were able to flex it's entire might vs. the Tau.
sniperjolly wrote:Futhermore, they are by far the least significant playable race included in 40K, and YES, I include the SM spinoffs. The Tau have a PATHETIC manufacturing base, and naval force when compared to say, Ultramar. I would like to see the Tau punch out Hive Fleet Behemoth. It would be hillarious. You make it seem like the Tau are a major player, let alone a genuine threat. THEY AREN'T. The Divisio Mandati curbstomps pocket empires like this once a week. The amount of Fanboism in this thread amuses me greatly.
What you said goes against all the available fluff. You are accusing others of being fanboys but you seem to be one yourself. I recommend that you go back and read the interesting discussion on how the Tau fare in BFG. I must say that I've learned quite a bit of interesting information from Kanluwen and BaronIveagh who both seem to have a fantastic grasp on fluff.
sniperjolly wrote:But Hey, guess what, the Tau will continue to grow relative to the other minor threats now that they have their own book and vocal fanbase, and GW will never (again) wipe a playble race from the game. So congrats, Tau fanboys, you have a friend in the GW codex biz. Now maybe they could convince their boss to let them write that book.
Breathe. It's a fictional univese and this is a hypothetical discussion. You might want to take a break from gaming if you're puting this much emotion into a game that you play.
I just can't wait 'til ward writes our codex someday so I can have crisis fists, crisis bombs, crisis guns...etc.
1hadhq wrote:
The current fluff had it penetrable with chainswords. Chainswords got rending now?
Hey, I don't write the stuff. The armor discussion is several pages back and included rules from an RPG, among other things. In any event, it doesn't really matter to me because it's primarily a game to me and though, in game, my suits kill terminates fairly easily they are nowhere near as sturdy....unless there's some handy terrain nearby to hide behind.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Decades of intense training; there's only so much experience one can gain before it all just blends into a plateau of "superhuman".
Centuries of intense training and battle experience across an entire force trumps decades.
Not a word I'd use to describe giant mutants whose only purpose in life is to run at things screaming and wildly firing their weapons.
Not exactly how they do it. They are still more disciplined, obeying their commander without even thinking, more like a machine
Stormtroopers aren't ten feet of clanking metal that's too clumsy to get behind cover or not attract every gun within several kilometers.
No they aren't, that's right. Space Marines can and do use cover, however they normally don't have to because of their vastly superior armour, so can take those shots. Taking those shots is also the main reason the have power armour, to be able to take them.
Hellgun > gyrojet's tipped with firecrackers.
Riiiight. In range and accuracy maybe. That's it.
The whole point of guns is to kill something without having to walk up and punch it, power armor restricts speed and agility, and neither Stormtroopers nor Marines are appropriate to use in extended operations, due to their small numbers and limited ammunition.
In the Space Marines role on the battlefield, they are often on the front lines of a battle, advancing quickly and wanting to get close to the enemy, therefore strength means a lot when you're in CC. In addition, they can take more punishment, run and fight for longer, and they need nearly no sleep and less food than a stormtrooper. Marines can operate for a lot longer than stormtroopers, and can still fight effectively without guns.
Never seen anything to suggest they have even the most rudimentary grasp of tactics.
Everything GW says about them in the codices and other sources of that ilk make them out to very tactically flexible. They are able to fulfil a larger number of roles than a stormtrooper, although they are specialized for getting close to the enemy.
Space Marines are decent shock troops. Ogryns are better shock troops, on account of being bigger, stronger, and even more expendable.
Ogryns as better shock troops than Space Marines? That's amazing, I mean when you think about it, NO. They are slow and stupid, not as tough, disobedient and are not able to smash the enemy with the ruthless efficiency of a Space Marine squad.
Never seen a reference to them actually being asked to join in, they just sort of hear that something's going on and invite themselves, or drag along conventional forces to do all the heavy lifting (also all the actual work outside dramatic posing).
Yeah, like they're not welcome or wanted. *sarcasm*.
Its a rough estimation. There are over 1000 chapters, each carrying on average, a little more than 1000 marines. Factoring in the other chapters like the Space Wolves, Black Templars and other similar chapters who deviate, you get around 1.1-1.2 million Marines throughout the Imperium.
Around one thousand chapters, each limited to a maximum of one thousand, and a handful of treasonous chapters who flout Imperial authority, but don't really make enough trouble to be worth exterminating.
There's a guideline of 1000, in reality, many Chapters have more. 1000 battle brothers plus support roles like Teachmarines, Apothecaries, Honour Guards and other Chapter specific organisations, like The Sanguinary Guard.
Calgar is one Chapter Master who didn't really bungle the defence at all. He managed to counter THE SWARMLORD, and actually managed to defeat the fleet. The hordes at the northern and southern fortresses were decimated, I have the Tyranid 5th ed here, no where does it say there were BILLIONS of Tyranids left. The first company fought to the man and succeeded in breaking the Tyranids that assailed them. Then you've got other Chapter Masters, like Helbrecht, Kantor and Dante, all regarded as masters of command.
He was outsmarted by a mindless beast, albeit one with quickly evolving instinct.
Mindless beast? The Swarmlord is the embodiment of The Hive Mind. It is intelligent, sapient even. It learns and uses tactics it has learnt from millennia of battle across multiple galaxies. It is far from a beast using its basic instinct. It thinks, assesses situations and learns from it's mistakes.
What they use, they do so for largely symbolic, traditional reasons. Bolters are ridiculous weapons to use in any capacity, at least next to lasguns, and each suit of power armor requires more of an investment of time and resources than an entire regiment of Guard's worth of flak armor.
Power armour and bolters are a lot more advanced and suitable for the Astartes. Each piece NEEDS attention, but it's still vastly superior and the attention is warranted.
They are the best weapons for the Space Marines role as Close Range heavy infantry support, spearhead forces and pin-point strike squads to take out important targets. Horus Rising is the best book I've read which accurately portrays what GW repeatedly says Space Marines are : the most elite and powerful force the Imperium can muster.
Prior to the Horus Heresy, they were. They've just gone downhill since, while the Guard quickly found the ideal equipment for waging an actual war, and has been learning from every engagement since.
Downhill in what way? There methods are different, as is the Imperium's needs and their roles as a fighting force. Ever thought that Astartes ARE using the ideal equipment?
Again, pure destructive power is not everything.
No, but it's telling in regards to the overall scale of things.
Point still stands. On a besieged world, The Imperium will call on the Space Marines to root out an enemy LONG before they bombard half the surface.
Can we PLEASE not continue this conversation in this thread. It's not entirely Off-topic, but it's not exactly entirely related to it. Create a thread to debate the redundancies of the Space Marines if you want.
agnosto wrote:
In any event, it doesn't really matter to me because it's primarily a game to me and though, in game, my suits kill terminates fairly easily they are nowhere near as sturdy....unless there's some handy terrain nearby to hide behind.
In game, youre shooting infantry with anti-tank, if you please...
And no one is as sturdy as fluff can paint him/her, cause we get ( more often than not ) balanced rules.
Melissia wrote:As a side note, chainswords actually have a decent penetration value in the Dark Heresy and Deathwatch roleplay games.
In an RPG.
Thats not bad, just a different place where details are more important.
Sadly not in 40k. So were looking at basic CCW's.
... a 40kRPG. Don't claim that Inquisitor, Dark Heresy, Rogue Trader, and Deathwatch aren't 40k.
The difference between the RPG systems and the tabletop system is that the RPG systems are more precise because each player typically only controls one person at a time, while in the tabletop that precision would merely bog down the game because you control dozens of models in the average game. Both still have fluff issues around balance of course, but generally speaking the RPG system is closer to fluff than the tabletop system.
Personally I post in terms of the overall lore (TT rulebook/army books, FFG, BL, etc), with a general disrespect towards most space marine based black library books (which are almost invariably poorly written with a few shining gems that are worth referencing).
Melissia wrote:Personally I post in terms of the overall lore (TT rulebook/army books, FFG, BL, etc), with a general disrespect towards most space marine based black library books (which are almost invariably poorly written with a few shining gems that are worth referencing).
What would you say are these shining gems? I've saved up a considerable amount of money with the interest is building a Grey Knights force and generally expanding by knowledge of the fluff through various books and other sources. I've ordered a bunch of Imperial Armoury books so far, would you say the Deathwatch rule-book and expansions are worth it for the game and the background?
Melissia wrote:Personally I post in terms of the overall lore (TT rulebook/army books, FFG, BL, etc), with a general disrespect towards most space marine based black library books (which are almost invariably poorly written with a few shining gems that are worth referencing).
What would you say are these shining gems? I've saved up a considerable amount of money with the interest is building a Grey Knights force and generally expanding by knowledge of the fluff through various books and other sources. I've ordered a bunch of Imperial Armoury books so far, would you say the Deathwatch rule-book and expansions are worth it for the game and the background?
Oh yes, the Deathwatch RPG is itself quite well written. I also recommend the Grey Knight omnibus, which is decently written as well.
I disagree with FFG's position on Sororitas power armor and bolters (although I accept that it was intended to be a supplement to Dark Heresy rather than Deathwatch, which justifies the numbers somewhat), but aside from that and a few other nitpicky details FFG's material is generally quite well written.
It seems to be a rather polarizing book. Personally I thought it was okay (at the very least, better than many other BL books I've read, but that's a low standard to begin with), but a lot of people either love it or loathe it.
As someone who likes Dan Abnett's books and Aaron Dembski-Bowden's books, and hell I even liked the two DA books from the Horus Heresy--I don't like the Grey Knights books.
Not really. Termies teleporting around the battlefield are a peculiarity of Dawn of War. In mainstream 40k they do not have personal teleporters. AFAIK the only space marines to have personal teleporters at all in 40k are Grey Knights, who do not use them on their termies.
On GW: frankly, fluff changes all the time, and GW as a for profit business owned by stockholders would drop the Imperium like a bad transmission if they decided there was more profit to be had elsewhere.
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1hadhq wrote:No, wouldn't say they are not 40k.
You're correct they may be closer to the background of 40k., but I cannot be sure as I am just into tabletop nowadays.
How many RPG players are posting in such threads? Assumed most dakkanauts in this thread thought in tabletop terms.
LOL Let's just say I think in terms of the RPG rather frequently.
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Kanluwen wrote:The Grey Knight Omnibus is terrible. Ben Counter is a bad writer and should feel bad for what he's written.
It's positively Shakespeare compared to M. Ward. But let's let this one drop before it goes wildly off topic.
Then why mention it at all? Rollin, rollin, rollin ', through the streams are swollen, keep that wagon rollliinnng oooonnnn!
Thank you for the suggestion, for whatever reason, the Grey Knights books never crossed my mind. What other Space Marine books stand out from the crowd? Graham McNeil's stuff is at least well written and accurate, if Uriel and his fellows are presented as morons. What about the Deathwatch expansions? Do they add much on to the core book?
Sorry for taking this off-topic but I thought I'd ask whilst I had the opportunity.
What about experience. In this hypothetical between the BT and the Tau, what role will simple experience play. SM have hundreds of years experience well the tau have a average lifespan of 40 years. That has got to play a role in any conflict between the two.
Depends on how much experience the Tau have fighting the Templars. After Nimbosa, the BT have at least some, but since Tau lifetimes are very short, the only thing they have to go on is documents and records from the time.
agnosto wrote:
In any event, it doesn't really matter to me because it's primarily a game to me and though, in game, my suits kill terminates fairly easily they are nowhere near as sturdy....unless there's some handy terrain nearby to hide behind.
In game, youre shooting infantry with anti-tank, if you please...
And no one is as sturdy as fluff can paint him/her, cause we get ( more often than not ) balanced rules.
A plasma rifle is anti-tank? Well, maybe if I'm getting rear shots since it's only S6...
Yeah, fluff is an entirely different animal but since this thread has been on fluff-based discussion for quite some time...
Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.
So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.
iproxtaco wrote:Depends on how much experience the Tau have fighting the Templars. After Nimbosa, the BT have at least some, but since Tau lifetimes are very short, the only thing they have to go on is documents and records from the time.
I would assume they have some kind of simulators they can plug their people into and let them replay old battle files. The SM have something like this, or they did way back in the old PS space hulk game.
iproxtaco wrote:The city would offer more protection. In a wide open area, the Templars will drop right in top of them, or occupy the city in their absence.
And in a city the Templars can drop right on top of them as well.
That cuts down the Tau's ability to flee, as well as drastically hurting their 'sheer firepower' part.
iproxtaco wrote:Depends on how much experience the Tau have fighting the Templars. After Nimbosa, the BT have at least some, but since Tau lifetimes are very short, the only thing they have to go on is documents and records from the time.
I would assume they have some kind of simulators they can plug their people into and let them replay old battle files. The SM have something like this, or they did way back in the old PS space hulk game.
Actually doing something will always beat a simulation. If the Templars decided to attack, they would employ those who have fought the Tau before to lead the attack or advise the commanders.
Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.
So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.
We know what they would do in this case. The codex says that the tau don't defend territory. They leave and then come back when they have the advantage.
iproxtaco wrote:The city would offer more protection. In a wide open area, the Templars will drop right in top of them, or occupy the city in their absence.
And in a city the Templars can drop right on top of them as well.
That cuts down the Tau's ability to flee, as well as drastically hurting their 'sheer firepower' part.
But there's still a lot less room to drop inside a city, and buildings will offer a relative amount of protection from orbital and atmospheric assets.
Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.
So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.
We know what they would do in this case. The codex says that the tau don't defend territory. They leave and then come back when they have the advantage.
Then their populations get butchered and the Templars occupy the territory.
Iproxtaco wrote:But there's still a lot less room to drop inside a city, and buildings will offer a relative amount of protection from orbital and atmospheric assets.
Er. Buildings won't offer a lot of protection from orbital strikes. Nor will a city necessarily offer a lot of protection from drops, since pods can smash through buildings.
Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.
So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.
Actually, of the septs outside of T'au itself, only Sa'cea and the formerly human world of the Vel'kan Sept fit that description. Remember that Tau worlds tend toward self sufficiency, so large scale urbanisation would reduce that. Further, it's flat out stated, IIRC in Cities of Death, that the Tau tend to eschew city fighting were possible, and when forced to defend a city, general treat it in the same manner they treat fighting in canyons.
There do seem to be some incongruities between the Tau in Codex: Tau/Empire and the Tau in Deathwatch, I've noticed.
You're also assuming that Battlebarges, which are interior even to Tau battleships, will be able to drive off any defenders in order to effect a bombardment.
Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.
So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.
We know what they would do in this case. The codex says that the tau don't defend territory. They leave and then come back when they have the advantage.
Then their populations get butchered and the Templars occupy the territory.
Iproxtaco wrote:But there's still a lot less room to drop inside a city, and buildings will offer a relative amount of protection from orbital and atmospheric assets.
Er. Buildings won't offer a lot of protection from orbital strikes. Nor will a city necessarily offer a lot of protection from drops, since pods can smash through buildings.
They fly away on jetpacks . Ya it dosen't make a whole lot of sense, but that is what their codex says. That's why I don't think the Tau have large citys outside of sept worlds. I guess it's not official, but I picture the tau having small villages where all the important stuff it attached to drones. In the event of an attack, everyone just leaves to be replaced by combat troops.
Kanluwen wrote:Most Tau planets aren't open countryside. They're built-up population centers with open countryside on the outskirts.
So the Tau will have the choice of pulling their forces into the countryside and hoping to bait the Templars out there--or defending the cities and risk being overrun.
Actually, of the septs outside of T'au itself, only Sa'cea and the formerly human world of the Vel'kan Sept fit that description. Remember that Tau worlds tend toward self sufficiency, so large scale urbanisation would reduce that. Further, it's flat out stated, IIRC in Cities of Death, that the Tau tend to eschew city fighting were possible, and when forced to defend a city, general treat it in the same manner they treat fighting in canyons.
I'm not saying they don't have open countryside or agricultural centers. But they're not going to be huge swathes of farmland all around the planet.
There do seem to be some incongruities between the Tau in Codex: Tau/Empire and the Tau in Deathwatch, I've noticed.
Eh. That tends to happen when one is being written to revise the fluff of something that hasn't really been changed since its release.
You're also assuming that Battlebarges, which are interior even to Tau battleships, will be able to drive off any defenders in order to effect a bombardment.
You're assuming that a Tau defensive fleet will have battleships or a Battlebarge can't withstand the defenders' salvos long enough to affect an Exterminatus level of bombardment or a simple lance strike.
Grey Templar wrote:the DoW teliportation is unrealistic though.
what would really happen is the Terminators would teliport back to the Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge,
then they would teliport back to a new position.
You mean like in DoW2?
there was Teliportation in the 1st DoW as well.
it is an ability Terminators have that is basically the same range as Assault Marine Jump packs.
basically, the 2 games had the same effect which is slightly incorrect. if the time was increased between exiting and reappearing to like a minute then it would be plausable.
Kanluwen wrote:
You're assuming that a Tau defensive fleet will have battleships or a Battlebarge can't withstand the defenders' salvos long enough to affect an Exterminatus level of bombardment or a simple lance strike.
Battlebarges don't have lances (and you would not believe the shitstorm over the single attempt they made to give a BB lances). They use BCs to effect large scale devastation, but they're inaccurate.
And, against Tau, it's not weapon salvos, it's bombers and torpedoes, both of which are tremendously effective compared to the Imperial version, and both of which can be launched not just from ships but from the planet itself.
Further, space marine ships are generally limited to very, very short range weapons, with the exception of one offs such as Venerable Battlebarges and Fortress Monastaries, which tend to predate the proscription against Space Marines having powerful anti-ship capabilities.
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Grey Templar wrote:Terminator armor does contain a Teliport beacon.
the DoW teliportation is unrealistic though.
what would really happen is the Terminators would teliport back to the Strike Cruiser or Battlebarge,
then they would teliport back to a new position.
it isn't feasable in the table top game for Terminators to do that for reasons of Balance and the Computer game simply wished to speed things up.
The problems there are two fold: the teleport beacon already has to be at the location, otherwise they scatter as normal. So if they wanted to teleport to close with a target, then whoever has the beacon would still have to close with the target on foot while everyone else teleports.
Two, teleporters have something like a half hour recharge on starships. So it may be a while...
Iproxtaco wrote:But there's still a lot less room to drop inside a city, and buildings will offer a relative amount of protection from orbital and atmospheric assets.
Er. Buildings won't offer a lot of protection from orbital strikes. Nor will a city necessarily offer a lot of protection from drops, since pods can smash through buildings.
I know, that's why I said 'relative'. Relative to standing out in the open with nothing over your head, it's better. Providing you stay inside, the orbiting ships and atmospheric fighters will have a more difficult time locating individual Tau targets, although I understand that The Imperial Navy has no qualms levelling the whole city. The Templars have a preference for targeting the open areas. Tau can more easily pin them in their drop zones using the relative protection of the buildings surrounding. Multi-storey buildings are not a place they want to aim their pods. If they penetrate a few floors or even straight through, the Templars are likely going to be buried beneath a large amount of rubble, and certainly wont be in a good position to assault from.
they disappear from one position and then reappear almost instantly nex to their enemies.
So you didn't pay attention then.
Whenever a terminator in DoW2 teleports, a bolt of "lightning" as it were strikes them. A fraction of a second pause. Then a bolt of "lightning" strikes the ground in another place and they appear. This is because they are teleporting up and then back down.
they disappear from one position and then reappear almost instantly nex to their enemies.
So you didn't pay attention then.
Whenever a terminator in DoW2 teleports, a bolt of "lightning" as it were strikes them. A fraction of a second pause. Then a bolt of "lightning" strikes the ground in another place and they appear. This is because they are teleporting up and then back down.
The game (rightfully) ignores fluff about the charge up time between teleports. (since most DoW games are over way before they would be ready to reappear)
BaronIveagh wrote:
You're also assuming that Battlebarges, which are interior even to Tau battleships, will be able to drive off any defenders in order to effect a bombardment.
Inferior in sheer firepower, yes. Inferior in protection? No. Boarding parties, something the Templars excel at using, would take a terrible toll on the Tau crews. While Tau may be able to beat SMs in planetary engagements I don't see them having much to fight off Terminators in a spaceship.
Boarding parties proved very effective against the Tau in the Nimbosa Crusade. The Black Templars smashed through bulk heads and surrounded the Tau, ultimately winning the Orbital station.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.
They're the same height (crisis suit: 3.8m, dreadnought: 4m)
They're almost as wide as they are tall, have two heavy weapons, are (in fluff) immune toi small arms fire, I know that iridium armoured crisis suits are 3.8 tonnes, not sure how heavy a dreadnought is, in savage scars, they are described as being only slightly less powerful than dreads.
Basically, they are very slightly lighter versions of dreads (very slightly) and more mobile, anbd deployed en masse.
Dreads best be backin' off...lol
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iproxtaco wrote:Boarding parties proved very effective against the Tau in the Nimbosa Crusade. The Black Templars smashed through bulk heads and surrounded the Tau, ultimately winning the Orbital station.
Boarding actions are the Tau achiles heels...just like cc
iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.
They're the same height (crisis suit: 3.8m, dreadnought: 4m)
They're almost as wide as they are tall, have two heavy weapons, are (in fluff) immune toi small arms fire, I know that iridium armoured crisis suits are 3.8 tonnes, not sure how heavy a dreadnought is, in savage scars, they are described as being only slightly less powerful than dreads.
Basically, they are very slightly lighter versions of dreads (very slightly) and more mobile, anbd deployed en masse.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.
They're the same height (crisis suit: 3.8m, dreadnought: 4m)
They're almost as wide as they are tall, have two heavy weapons, are (in fluff) immune toi small arms fire, I know that iridium armoured crisis suits are 3.8 tonnes, not sure how heavy a dreadnought is, in savage scars, they are described as being only slightly less powerful than dreads.
Basically, they are very slightly lighter versions of dreads (very slightly) and more mobile, anbd deployed en masse.
Dreads best be backin' off...lol
A bit late to that argument. Your counter is size and weight? Anything other than a jump-pack, thus long-range mobility that Tau have an advantage over Dreads? Nothing stated there. Dread's can carry a large variety of Heavy Weapons, same as the Tau. Their armour is VASTLY superior, being immune to many forms of heavy weapons fire. They will annihilate in CC and are faster on foot.
No need for those Dreads to back off. Just stand there and take the hits, whilst shooting the Crisis suits from the sky with its Lascannon, and god forbid the Tau get within range of it's close combat weapon.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.
They're the same height (crisis suit: 3.8m, dreadnought: 4m)
They're almost as wide as they are tall, have two heavy weapons, are (in fluff) immune toi small arms fire, I know that iridium armoured crisis suits are 3.8 tonnes, not sure how heavy a dreadnought is, in savage scars, they are described as being only slightly less powerful than dreads.
Basically, they are very slightly lighter versions of dreads (very slightly) and more mobile, anbd deployed en masse.
Dreads best be backin' off...lol
A bit late to that argument. Your counter is size and weight? Anything other than a jump-pack, thus long-range mobility that Tau have an advantage over Dreads? Nothing stated there. Dread's can carry a large variety of Heavy Weapons, same as the Tau. Their armour is VASTLY superior, being immune to many forms of heavy weapons fire. They will annihilate in CC and are faster on foot.
No need for those Dreads to back off. Just sand there and take the hits, whilst shooting the Crisis suits from the sky with their Lascannon, and god forbid the Tau get within range of it's close combat weapon.
The only advantages I see are speed (an XV8 at full thrust is somewhere around 50kph) and mobility; but I'm not sure what the turning rate for a dread is, so that might not matter.
The only way I can see an XV8 taking out a dread is from behind, at close range, with a plasma rifle or fusion blaster.
Dreads can rotate on the spot, and I would put my money on the Crisis suit needing to keep far away and use it's superior mobility to stay out of the line of sight. The suit needs to stay out of close range, the Dreadnought is faster on foot, better in CC and could be fitted with an underslung weapon. Melta anyone?
iproxtaco wrote:Dreads can rotate on the spot, and I would put my money on the Crisis suit needing to keep far away and use it's superior mobility to stay out of the line of sight. The suit needs to stay out of close range, the Dreanought is faster on foot, better in CC and could be fitted with an underslung weapon. Melta anyone?
The only advantages I see are speed (an XV8 at full thrust is somewhere around 50kph) and mobility; but I'm not sure what the turning rate for a dread is, so that might not matter.
The only way I can see an XV8 taking out a dread is from behind, at close range, with a plasma rifle or fusion blaster.
Actually, either front or back is fine, though back is better. Aim for it's feet. If the mini is anything to go by, the feet are moved by a series of pneumatic or hydraulic pistons that are exposed around the feet. A shot from most heavy Tau weapons should be able to sever these exposed points, immobilizing the dread.
I should point out that as of IA:3, Tau are no longer take a penalty when boarded. SM still have their +2 for being SM, but their effectivness against Tau has been halved with the introduction of specially trained firewarriors. So, against certain defense platforms, sure, but against a ship, not as much,
iproxtaco wrote:Dreads can rotate on the spot, and I would put my money on the Crisis suit needing to keep far away and use it's superior mobility to stay out of the line of sight. The suit needs to stay out of close range, the Dreanought is faster on foot, better in CC and could be fitted with an underslung weapon. Melta anyone?
How fast is a Dreadnought walking, anyway?
I'm not sure, but they're able to keep up with their fellow Space Marines advance. Definitely not capable of sprinting or 'running'. Their only method of movement is walking, so I'd have to say they have to set a fair pace. Crisis suits are not really supposed to walk all the time, mainly using their jump-pack to move any significant distance.
iproxtaco wrote:Boarding parties proved very effective against the Tau in the Nimbosa Crusade. The Black Templars smashed through bulk heads and surrounded the Tau, ultimately winning the Orbital station.
That is completely expected. The real surprise is that the tau where actually holding them off at the start. The tau are just plain bad at boring actions.
iproxtaco wrote:Boarding parties proved very effective against the Tau in the Nimbosa Crusade. The Black Templars smashed through bulk heads and surrounded the Tau, ultimately winning the Orbital station.
That is completely expected. The real surprise is that the tau where actually holding them off at the start. The tau are just plain bad at boring actions.
Again, this is retconned in IA:3. Tau no longer totally suck at boarding actions having 'gasp' learned something from their contact with the Imperium.
iproxtaco wrote:They clearly are still not as good as space marines, so will fall prey to Black Templars boarding their vessels.
No, they're not equal to Orks or Space marines, however: assuming that the orbital in question is the regular Tau security orbital, a strike cruiser would be very, very lucky to pull this off, since a security orbital, as of FAQ 2010 does not halve it's value in boarding actions. In BFG, as of FAQ 2010, the Strike Cruiser would be in a dead heat with the security orbital, and probably never be able to take it.
Which means there are enough Tau on board to take on the maximum number of Space Marines a strike cruiser can deliver in a boarding action head on.
iproxtaco wrote:Boarding parties proved very effective against the Tau in the Nimbosa Crusade. The Black Templars smashed through bulk heads and surrounded the Tau, ultimately winning the Orbital station.
That is completely expected. The real surprise is that the tau where actually holding them off at the start. The tau are just plain bad at boring actions.
Again, this is retconned in IA:3. Tau no longer totally suck at boarding actions having 'gasp' learned something from their contact with the Imperium.
Ya You posted that well I was posting my thing. Dose it say what these troops look like. What weapons they use or things like that?
iproxtaco wrote:They clearly are still not as good as space marines, so will fall prey to Black Templars boarding their vessels.
Not all the time, just most of the time. Sometimes the tau will get a lucky brake.
Ya You posted that well I was posting my thing. Dose it say what these troops look like. What weapons they use or things like that?
No, it just says that they take "Fire Warrior cadres specially trained in shipboard combat and boarding techniques as an integral part of the crew."
Maybe they are stealth suits, pathfinders, angry kroot with shotguns? They could be trained in some kind of special ops combat style, but I kind of doubt that. They probably sill use some kind of range weapon.
A odd question, but can SM even fit inside of tau space ships? If the tau wanted a good advantage, they could just lower the ceiling .
That's a variable we have absolutely no knowledge of (please correct me if I'm wrong). And Fire Warriors are Fire Warriors. They are not Kroot or Stealth Suits. They DEFINITELY use some sort of ranged weapon, being pitiful in CC.
Hmm, all this talk of boarding has me thinking. SM helmets are supposed to be immune to flash and other disorientation grenades... are they immune to photon grenades? That would be invaluable during boarding combat.
Nerivant wrote:Hmm, all this talk of boarding has me thinking. SM helmets are supposed to be immune to flash and other disorientation grenades... are they immune to photon grenades? That would be invaluable during boarding combat.
From 40k Wiki -
40k Wiki wrote:Photon Flash flare Explodes with a tremendously powerful flash of light, which will temporarily blind anyone without protection in its area, and may even affect those with protection, such as power-armoured Space Marines.
Nerivant wrote:Hmm, all this talk of boarding has me thinking. SM helmets are supposed to be immune to flash and other disorientation grenades... are they immune to photon grenades? That would be invaluable during boarding combat.
From 40k Wiki -
40k Wiki wrote:Photon Flash flare
Explodes with a tremendously powerful flash of light, which will temporarily blind anyone without protection in its area, and may even affect those with protection, such as power-armoured Space Marines.
Someone else may have better sources than wikia.
Yeah, that makes sense. Space Marines are immune to the Imperial Photon Flash grenade, but the Tau version is a multi-spectrum flash, which is probably effective.
So I am guessing that these anti boarding fire warriors are pathfinders with pulse carbines and photon grenades. They lie in wait outside of a room then when the SMs enter, they shoot in some grenades and go in shooting. Maybe they use rail rifles combined with ship board camera to shoot at boarders through walls. That might make them halfway effective at boarding actions.
I should point out that that was an Imperial Photon Flash Flare, as far as I could see there was no additional info on Tau ones. They could well be more effective, someone may have additional information from the rpgs.
Fire Warriors, not pathfinders (if there is a difference). Pulse Carbines will be the weapon of choice, but shooting through your own ship with a Railrifle? LOL. The Tau are not stupid.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a variable we have absolutely no knowledge of (please correct me if I'm wrong). And Fire Warriors are Fire Warriors. They are not Kroot or Stealth Suits. They DEFINITELY use some sort of ranged weapon, being pitiful in CC.
Might be some sort of shotgun like impliment, the fighting would be cramped and close range.
iproxtaco wrote:I should point out that that was an Imperial Photon Flash Flare, as far as I could see there was no additional info on Tau ones. They could well be more effective, someone may have additional information from the rpgs.
The RPGs are what I was referring to. The power armor's helmet grants immunity to Photon Flash grenades, but they only emit a bright, single spectra of light. Tau grenades are mulit-spectrum, and would probably overload the helmet and blind the marine inside.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a variable we have absolutely no knowledge of (please correct me if I'm wrong). And Fire Warriors are Fire Warriors. They are not Kroot or Stealth Suits. They DEFINITELY use some sort of ranged weapon, being pitiful in CC.
Might be some sort of shotgun like impliment, the fighting would be cramped and close range.
Shotguns would actually be bad Vs SM. You need something like a rifle to punch through their armor.
I don't have my codex on me, but I think tau grenades affect the nerves as well as the eyes.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a variable we have absolutely no knowledge of (please correct me if I'm wrong). And Fire Warriors are Fire Warriors. They are not Kroot or Stealth Suits. They DEFINITELY use some sort of ranged weapon, being pitiful in CC.
Might be some sort of shotgun like impliment, the fighting would be cramped and close range.
Kroot Hounds. I imagine they'd be useful sniffing out Boarding Parties and engaging them in CC.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a variable we have absolutely no knowledge of (please correct me if I'm wrong). And Fire Warriors are Fire Warriors. They are not Kroot or Stealth Suits. They DEFINITELY use some sort of ranged weapon, being pitiful in CC.
Might be some sort of shotgun like impliment, the fighting would be cramped and close range.
Shotguns would actually be bad Vs SM. You need something like a rifle to punch through their armor.
I don't have my codex on me, but I think tau grenades affect the nerves as well as the eyes.
Maybe a modified pulse carbine? Stronger shot with lower range and less ammo?
iproxtaco wrote:I should point out that that was an Imperial Photon Flash Flare, as far as I could see there was no additional info on Tau ones. They could well be more effective, someone may have additional information from the rpgs.
The RPGs are what I was referring to. The power armor's helmet grants immunity to Photon Flash grenades, but they only emit a bright, single spectra of light. Tau grenades are mulit-spectrum, and would probably overload the helmet and blind the marine inside.
It depends upon how much of the Spectrum the helmet shields against. Plus the Astartes themselves have implants to help further. In Horus Rising, Loken looked straight at a VERY bright light with his helmet off, I think it was a teleport flare, and was largely unaffected although he did avert his eyes.
nomotog wrote:So I am guessing that these anti boarding fire warriors are pathfinders with pulse carbines and photon grenades. They lie in wait outside of a room then when the SMs enter, they shoot in some grenades and go in shooting. Maybe they use rail rifles combined with ship board camera to shoot at boarders through walls. That might make them halfway effective at boarding actions.
Yes because using a gun that can blow a hole in the hull when you're not wearing an atmospheric pressurized suit while your opponent is?
Genius!
Nerivant--Why? Probably because the Tau designed it that way.
nomotog wrote:So I am guessing that these anti boarding fire warriors are pathfinders with pulse carbines and photon grenades. They lie in wait outside of a room then when the SMs enter, they shoot in some grenades and go in shooting. Maybe they use rail rifles combined with ship board camera to shoot at boarders through walls. That might make them halfway effective at boarding actions.
Yes because using a gun that can blow a hole in the hull when you're not wearing an atmospheric pressurized suit while your opponent is?
Genius!
Nerivant--Why? Probably because the Tau designed it that way.
I didn't think I would have to mention that these sections are depressurized. I thought it would be a given. They probably depressurize there ships before they even get into combat. It's just common space sense.
Kanluwen wrote:Or you could be overlooking the easiest explanation of all.
The photon grenades might 'overload' the tech in Astartes helmets that compensates for flashbangs/disorientation grenades.
That's the only it could work. We're just discussing why.
I think an EMP grenade would be better.
the Photon grenade might overload the helmets sensors, but i doubt it would overload the SM's superior physical implants at the same time. the auto-senses would be useless for a period, but the marine himself would be fine.
the EMP grenade would positively shut down the suit(and any augmetics the marine has ) and could blind the marine as he is sensitive to Infrared and Ultraviolent light.
We aren't discussing the whys, but the effect a Tau photon grenade would have on an Astartes performing boarding actions. If the helmet is designed to largely protect against bright flashes, automatically dimming, and the Space Marine himself is biologically engineered to tolerate them, Tau weapons would have to over-load the sensors.
nomotog wrote:So I am guessing that these anti boarding fire warriors are pathfinders with pulse carbines and photon grenades. They lie in wait outside of a room then when the SMs enter, they shoot in some grenades and go in shooting. Maybe they use rail rifles combined with ship board camera to shoot at boarders through walls. That might make them halfway effective at boarding actions.
Yes because using a gun that can blow a hole in the hull when you're not wearing an atmospheric pressurized suit while your opponent is?
Genius!
Nerivant--Why? Probably because the Tau designed it that way.
I didn't think I would have to mention that these sections are depressurized. I thought it would be a given. They probably depressurize there ships before they even get into combat. It's just common space sense.
Oh yeah, much better, your still shooting holes in your own fething ship, through WALLS, meaning all sections where the shot penetrates become connected. What if they breach the hull? Mass de-pressurisation of inhabited sections, resulting in the death of a lot of the crew.
I like the idea that it overloads the helmet, since the space marine would have to spend a second taking his helmet off to use his eyes. IIRC one of the White Scars has this problem at one point in the first two Gulf Crusade novels and takes off his helmet to see again.
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iproxtaco wrote:
Oh yeah, much better, your still shooting holes in your own fething ship, through WALLS, meaning all sections where the shot penetrates become de-pressurised if you shoot into areas where the Marines board, and the crew would die. Only small uninhabited sections will be de-pressurised, definitely not sections where large numbers of Tau are operating. Sections on fire will have the air take out to quench the flames or if the hull is melting.
Never mind that the Astartes are cutting holes in the walls anyway.
BaronIveagh wrote:I like the idea that it overloads the helmet, since the space marine would have to spend a second taking his helmet off to use his eyes. IIRC one of the White Scars has this problem at one point in the first two Gulf Crusade novels and takes off his helmet to see again.
Which is dangerous or nearly impossible to do in the middle of a firefight at close range. I give the Tau a good (but not great) chance during a boarding action against the BT's.
Heh, the mental image of a bunch of marines with overloaded visual system staggering into each other and falling over is quite entertaining.
iproxtaco wrote:Then the system would overload, but he'll still take his helmet off. Not too much danger unless he gets shot by a Railrifle through 5 walls.
If he's trading fire with Fire Warrior at close range, I don't think he could afford it; there isn't much cover in a space ship.
nomotog wrote:So I am guessing that these anti boarding fire warriors are pathfinders with pulse carbines and photon grenades. They lie in wait outside of a room then when the SMs enter, they shoot in some grenades and go in shooting. Maybe they use rail rifles combined with ship board camera to shoot at boarders through walls. That might make them halfway effective at boarding actions.
Yes because using a gun that can blow a hole in the hull when you're not wearing an atmospheric pressurized suit while your opponent is?
Genius!
Nerivant--Why? Probably because the Tau designed it that way.
I didn't think I would have to mention that these sections are depressurized. I thought it would be a given. They probably depressurize there ships before they even get into combat. It's just common space sense.
Oh yeah, much better, your still shooting holes in your own fething ship, through WALLS, meaning all sections where the shot penetrates become connected. What if they breach the hull? Mass de-pressurisation of inhabited sections, resulting in the death of a lot of the crew.
Maybe I am not explaining this right. You depressurize the ship. You do this before you even start combat. The oxygen probably gets mixed in with some kind of viscus fluid and stored in tanks.The people inside the ship are all wearing space suits, or they are siting in small pressurized cubbyholes. You don't shoot through the cubbyholes. They have maps of these things.
You do this to avoid the violent depressurization that comes from ship to ship fire, or boarding actions. First thing you do when boarding a ship, you open the windows and let all the air out. I don't know how smart SMs are about this, but I imagine that the boarding craft is capable of punching some kind of venting holes in a ship.
iproxtaco wrote:Then the system would overload, but he'll still take his helmet off. Not too much danger unless he gets shot by a Railrifle through 5 walls.
Yes, in the hard vacuum he created carving through a bulkhead with his chainsword. Good idea.
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nomotog wrote:
Maybe I am not explaining this right. You depressurize the ship. You do this before you even start combat. The oxygen probably gets mixed in with some kind of viscus fluid and stored in tanks.The people inside the ship are all wearing space suits, or they are siting in small pressurized cubbyholes. You don't shoot through the cubbyholes. They have maps of these things.
You do this to avoid the violent depressurization that comes from ship to ship fire, or boarding actions. First thing you do when boarding a ship, you open the windows and let all the air out. I don't know how smart SMs are about this, but I imagine that the boarding craft is capable of punching some kind of venting holes in a ship.
Shhh... that's using logic and the laws of reality. This is 40k. Space ships can't depressurize areas that are not used in combat and have the living quarters and star ship bridges at the center of the ship, that would be unsporting.
iproxtaco wrote:Then the system would overload, but he'll still take his helmet off. Not too much danger unless he gets shot by a Railrifle through 5 walls.
Yes, in the hard vacuum he created carving through a bulkhead with his chainsword. Good idea.
SMs can actually survive in the vacuum. They hold their breath. No really. That is what they do.
Brother Coa wrote:Guys, what about weapons?
Can Space Marines outmatch Tau in weaponry?
To me it;s like Tau are more powerful, but Marines are more practical. So they are even, or the Marines have a little advantage over Tau...
I am talking about infantry weapons btw...
In close quarters, the Tau have a moderate disadvantage, however, it's not clear what the difference is between these firewarrior cadres on ship and the ones on ground is. It says they're specialists in close quarters fighting and boarding actions, so the marines might only have a marginal advantage.
Brother Coa wrote:Guys, what about weapons?
Can Space Marines outmatch Tau in weaponry?
To me it;s like Tau are more powerful, but Marines are more practical. So they are even, or the Marines have a little advantage over Tau...
I am talking about infantry weapons btw...
It depends on the weapon. I would say that the tau weapons are more practical. SM weapons are things like mystic swords and rocket powered handguns. They are cool as hike, but practical? I don't know. With the tau, everything is meant to be practical. They don't have any old mystic weapons that can't be reproduced. (Well there is one. The dawn blade, but that's a different story.)
Edit: You know I am actually looking at the process of creating a SM and nothing about a SM is practical. It's all really cool and really powerful, but I can't help but think of what use this tech could be if it was applied in more practical way.
Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.
Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.
Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.
Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability." -Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.
Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.
Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability." -Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.
Which is funny because the stats given in Rogue Trader for a pulse rifle are almost identical to that of a bolt gun except for longer range and greater accuracy at range.
Nerivant wrote:
A pulse rifle or carbine is stronger than a bolter; but power armor is tougher and more useful than the Tau's carapace armor.
Actually the tau Pulse rifle is comparable to the bolter with better range but similar penetraition and damage, and their basic armor is comparable to a battle sister's power armor, though it lacks the strength enhancements.
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability." -Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.
Which is funny because the stats given in Rogue Trader for a pulse rifle are almost identical to that of a bolt gun except for longer range and greater accuracy at range.
I'm more inclined to believe the quote than the stats; since the stats are much more of an approximation.
But maybe that's just me.
It's crunch Vs fluff. This thread is all about fluff, so I say go with the quote.
Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.
I'm more inclined to believe the quote than the stats; since the stats are much more of an approximation.
But maybe that's just me.
It's crunch Vs fluff. This thread is all about fluff, so I say go with the quote.
Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.
Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.
The only thing about that is that you don't have plot armor in an RPG. Tau weapons are deadly because the characters are allowed to die.
iproxtaco wrote:Then the system would overload, but he'll still take his helmet off. Not too much danger unless he gets shot by a Railrifle through 5 walls.
Yes, in the hard vacuum he created carving through a bulkhead with his chainsword. Good idea.
SMs can actually survive in the vacuum. They hold their breath. No really. That is what they do.
Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.
The only thing about that is that you don't have plot armor in an RPG. Tau weapons are deadly because the characters are allowed to die.
Yes, however, the rules of the RPG have the Plasma Rifle with comparable damage and penetration to the bolter, just with superior range and accuracy. So saying 'they're super deadly' and then having them deal more or less the same damage as a bolter (granted with better range and accuracy) does not match up.
Eh, but the problem is that for every quote like that, you get one like the scene in the one Ultramarine novel where they casually shrug off everything the Tau can fire at them. So no consistency.
The only thing about that is that you don't have plot armor in an RPG. Tau weapons are deadly because the characters are allowed to die.
Yes, however, the rules of the RPG have the Plasma Rifle with comparable damage and penetration to the bolter, just with superior range and accuracy. So saying 'they're super deadly' and then having them deal more or less the same damage as a bolter (granted with better range and accuracy) does not match up.
If you're talking about the XV8 Plasma Rifle, that's probably for balance reasons.
"It ignores your armor, deals a massive chunk of your health as damage, and can fire on semi-auto. Oh, also, it's mounted to a battlesuit. It has two of them."
If you're talking about the XV8 Plasma Rifle, that's probably for balance reasons.
"It ignores your armor, deals a massive chunk of your health as damage, and can fire on semi-auto. Oh, also, it's mounted to a battlesuit. It has two of them."
Actually, I was talking about the regular tau plasma rifle that the kroot are using in Rogue Trader. Where armor is tinfoil anyway, when the orbital strike comes down.
If you're talking about the XV8 Plasma Rifle, that's probably for balance reasons.
"It ignores your armor, deals a massive chunk of your health as damage, and can fire on semi-auto. Oh, also, it's mounted to a battlesuit. It has two of them."
Actually, I was talking about the regular tau plasma rifle that the kroot are using in Rogue Trader. Where armor is tinfoil anyway, when the orbital strike comes down.
Aye. Even in Deathwatch, where the "Pulse > Bolter" quote was from, has the pulse rifle doing less damage and having less penetration, but a longer range.
iproxtaco wrote:That's a VERY wild statement to make. Give us any evidence to suggest that Crisis suits are ANYWHERE remotely close to a fething Dreadnought. That is the kind of ignorance or wishful thinking I was talking about.
3 Shield Gens (2 drone 1 onboard)
2 weapons capable of melting terminators and popping tanks
Strong enough to heft around rail guns
I wouldn't say they are a perfect match-up, but honestly they fit somewhere between a termi and a dread.
Also, Imperium tech being put above Tau is just plain stupid.
When the Imperium has ANYTHING on par with tech like Rail Rifles or Eclipse Shield Gens or hell even Battlesuits you can talk superior tech... Until then, about the only thing better is IoMs FTL method.
What, just melting Terminators and popping tanks willy-nilly? Wishful thinking.
Dreadnoughts could heft around about 3 Crisis suits with their attached railguns.
They are on par, maybe slightly better than Terminators, not anywhere near a Dreadnought.
I did post earlier on about how Tau players think their race has vastly superior technology, and that this is just ignorance and wishful thinking. IN THE SAME POST, I said that Tau technology is leagues ahead in many respects, such as the Pulse Rifle.
Lascannons. No idea what the feth Eclipse shielding is, would like an explanation. Dreadnoughts and every Space Marine wearing power armour. Dreadnoughts, better than Crisis suits, the Tau have no Space Marine equivalent.
FTL is a pretty MAJOR technology. The Tau will be nothing without reliable, fast and long ranged FTL.
1. The Tau understand the concept of traveling in the warp, it is totally possible they have the ability to but do not use it, due to its inherit dangers. Their inferior FTL is by choice. The result of weighing the dangers and deciding its not worth the risk.
2. Shield Gens are common, having thee, two of which absorb damage for you with no consequences if they fail is win.
3. An Eclipse Shield Gen turns an XV-9 into both a stealthsuit and provides a shield gen. Though only being field tested, it's very likely tech like that sees mass production down the road. Yet again, it represents technology that defines top tier R&D on a galactic scale.
Tau suits represent a gap in Imperium technology. They are a highly mobile and super defensive elite infantry that can pop everything from a terminator to a Land Raider. In many ways they are a weapon of lethal finesse that the IoM lacks due to dogma and ritual.
the Tau CAN'T use Warp Travel as they don't have access to any sort of race to use as Navigators.
you have to have a psyker to pilot the ship through the warp.
I could be wrong, but Geller Fields might require psychic activation too.
the Tau certaintly don't have Geller Field tech(and don't need it with their method of travel) although they could salavage it from any human ships they capture.
a Tau ship which entered the warp would be at the mercy of the Warp's tides and eddys. not a place ANYONE could survive in(unless you're Draigo )
the Tau can't fathom the warp and are utterly perplexed by anything associated with it(que C'tan consperacy theories)
and for boarding actions:
Space Marines get a +2 bonus on their rolls. Tau get 1/2 the normal rolls for a ship of their size.
Tau suck in boarding actions.
Reason 1: Ships are cramped. you're a little firewarrior with a Pulse Carbine patrolling the corridors of the ship. you turn the corner and bumb into a Space Marine. I garuntee you will be dead before your brain even regesters the marine's presense as the marine probably heard you a good 2 minutes before you rounded the corner and just reached out and snapped your tiny little xeno neck the second you came around the bend. and in the cramped corridors, your weapons longer range is nullified and any penetration power you have gained is also gained by your enemies.
Reason 2: Tau dislike close combat in general. they won't gear their ships towards holding off Boarding actions aside from rudimantary precautions.
1. The Tau understand the concept of traveling in the warp, it is totally possible they have the ability to but do not use it, due to its inherit dangers. Their inferior FTL is by choice. The result of weighing the dangers and deciding its not worth the risk.
2. Shield Gens are common, having thee, two of which absorb damage for you with no consequences if they fail is win.
3. An Eclipse Shield Gen turns an XV-9 into both a stealthsuit and provides a shield gen. Though only being field tested, it's very likely tech like that sees mass production down the road. Yet again, it represents technology that defines top tier R&D on a galactic scale.
Tau suits represent a gap in Imperium technology. They are a highly mobile and super defensive elite infantry that can pop everything from a terminator to a Land Raider. In many ways they are a weapon of lethal finesse that the IoM lacks due to dogma and ritual.
Number 1. Lets talk about that one. Do the tau really know that much about the warp? It seems to me, that the warp and most tech related to the warp are the tau blind spot. They have such low warp presence, I think it will take them a very long time to make quality warp travel and things like transporters or force weapons are a total no go. Anyone have a different idea?
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Grey Templar wrote:the Tau CAN'T use Warp Travel as they don't have access to any sort of race to use as Navigators.
you have to have a psyker to pilot the ship through the warp.
I could be wrong, but Geller Fields might require psychic activation too.
the Tau certaintly don't have Geller Field tech(and don't need it with their method of travel) although they could salavage it from any human ships they capture.
a Tau ship which entered the warp would be at the mercy of the Warp's tides and eddys. not a place ANYONE could survive in(unless you're Draigo )
the Tau can't fathom the warp and are utterly perplexed by anything associated with it(que C'tan consperacy theories)
and for boarding actions:
Space Marines get a +2 bonus on their rolls. Tau get 1/2 the normal rolls for a ship of their size.
Tau suck in boarding actions.
Reason 1: Ships are cramped. you're a little firewarrior with a Pulse Carbine patrolling the corridors of the ship. you turn the corner and bumb into a Space Marine. I garuntee you will be dead before your brain even regesters the marine's presense as the marine probably heard you a good 2 minutes before you rounded the corner and just reached out and snapped your tiny little xeno neck the second you came around the bend. and in the cramped corridors, your weapons longer range is nullified and any penetration power you have gained is also gained by your enemies.
Reason 2: Tau dislike close combat in general. they won't gear their ships towards holding off Boarding actions aside from rudimantary precautions.
Could the tau use human navigators?
The tau apparently trained some special troops to not be so bad at boarding actions. We had a nice talk about what those troops are like. I think they are pathfinders in space suits.
the Tau could use Human Navigators if they had access to them.
the problem is that Navigators were almost completely isolated from the rest of humanity long ago and now are almost exclusivly found among the Navigatus Nobilite houses on Terra.
a randomly occuring Navigator would be a 1 in ten gadzillion occurance. for the Gene to appear in a human unrelated to the existing navigator lines would be unheard of, although not impossable.
any old psyker will do in a pinch, but they can't do the job properly. and there is the issue of the ship not having a Geller Field.
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau CAN'T use Warp Travel as they don't have access to any sort of race to use as Navigators.
you have to have a psyker to pilot the ship through the warp.
I could be wrong, but Geller Fields might require psychic activation too.
Nope. Imperial ships can make what's called a 'calculated jump' without a navigator, but they're very short range. A navigator is required for any long range jumps.
Kroot have an equivalent to navigators.
Grey Templar wrote:
the Tau certaintly don't have Geller Field tech(and don't need it with their method of travel) although they could salavage it from any human ships they capture.
That's not known.
Grey Templar wrote:
a Tau ship which entered the warp would be at the mercy of the Warp's tides and eddys. not a place ANYONE could survive in(unless you're Draigo )
the Tau can't fathom the warp and are utterly perplexed by anything associated with it(que C'tan consperacy theories)
Um, you may wish to check the fluff for the Medusa V campiegn. IIRC the Tau's objectives were to learn about the warp. This, supposedly, they did, though at tremendous cost, and they still can't make long range warp jumps.
Grey Templar wrote:
Space Marines get a +2 bonus on their rolls. Tau get 1/2 the normal rolls for a ship of their size.
Partially retconned as of FAQ 2010. Certain Tau ships now take specially trained firewarrior cadres so they no longer halve thier value. Please read previous posts in thread.
Grey Templar wrote:
Tau suck in boarding actions.
No more then the Imperial Navy now.
Grey Templar wrote:
Reason 1: Ships are cramped. you're a little firewarrior with a Pulse Carbine patrolling the corridors of the ship. you turn the corner and bumb into a Space Marine. I garuntee you will be dead before your brain even regesters the marine's presense as the marine probably heard you a good 2 minutes before you rounded the corner and just reached out and snapped your tiny little xeno neck the second you came around the bend. and in the cramped corridors, your weapons longer range is nullified and any penetration power you have gained is also gained by your enemies.
Um, I hate to point this out to you, but I think that there might be alarms going off from the big assed hole they just made in the hull to get on board. And, 'Imperial' starships are cramped. Every race is not the IoM.
Grey Templar wrote:
Reason 2: Tau dislike close combat in general. they won't gear their ships towards holding off Boarding actions aside from rudimantary precautions.
Retconned as of BFGFAQ 2010. Seem that meeting the Imperium taught them a few new tricks.
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau could use Human Navigators if they had access to them.
the problem is that Navigators were almost completely isolated from the rest of humanity long ago and now are almost exclusivly found among the Navigatus Nobilite houses on Terra.
a randomly occuring Navigator would be a 1 in ten gadzillion occurance. for the Gene to appear in a human unrelated to the existing navigator lines would be unheard of, although not impossable.
any old psyker will do in a pinch, but they can't do the job properly. and there is the issue of the ship not having a Geller Field.
So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or fringe worlds use? (You know the kind of people the tau seduce into working for the empire.)
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau could use Human Navigators if they had access to them.
the problem is that Navigators were almost completely isolated from the rest of humanity long ago and now are almost exclusivly found among the Navigatus Nobilite houses on Terra.
a randomly occuring Navigator would be a 1 in ten gadzillion occurance. for the Gene to appear in a human unrelated to the existing navigator lines would be unheard of, although not impossable.
any old psyker will do in a pinch, but they can't do the job properly. and there is the issue of the ship not having a Geller Field.
So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?
they use navigators from the Nobilite which are loaned to the Rogue Trader on a more or less permant basis for a substantial fee.
every navigtor is born on Terra among the Nobilite houses.
So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?
The Navigator houses rent them out to Rogue Traders, etc.
That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.
nomotog wrote:
That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.
So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?
The Navigator houses rent them out to Rogue Traders, etc.
That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.
yeah, they could do that, but it wouldn't be enough to make a fleet out of.
So navigators are rare? What do people like rouge traders or converted planets use?
The Navigator houses rent them out to Rogue Traders, etc.
That kind of puts navigators in reach of the tau. They could "empress" AKA kidnapping some of them to work for them. Maybe not enough to field a fleet, but enough to play around with them and maybe see how they work. You know, if the tau was better at warp based tech.
yeah, they could do that, but it wouldn't be enough to make a fleet out of.
Ya and something tells me that stealing a navigator gets a SM boot put somewhere unpleasant, but you know in general I think the tau lag behind other races in warp tech. At the very least the tau have to R&D it all second hand sense the tau themselves can't do it.
nomotog wrote:
Ya and something tells me that stealing a navigator gets a SM boot put somewhere unpleasant, but you know in general I think the tau lag behind other races in warp tech. At the very least the tau have to R&D it all second hand sense the tau themselves can't do it.
Actually, navigators and the ships they are on get lost all the time without anyone ever knowing what happened. As long as the Tau could keep a lid on it, it's quite possible they have a navigator or more in custody for study. Theoretically, the Tau could even get kroot or Deimurge assistance to produce their warp drives.
If they ever needed a means to traverse massive portions of the galaxy they would most likely devise it. The thing about warp travel is that it creates as many problems as it tends to solve and is heavily reliant on a frail little corpse sitting on the most expensive chair ever built.
If the Tau can consolidate more of the Eastern Fringe into an alliance there is a solid chance they will create a faster means of FTL to suit their needs.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Tau create technology as they see fit.
If they ever needed a means to traverse massive portions of the galaxy they would most likely devise it. The thing about warp travel is that it creates as many problems as it tends to solve and is heavily reliant on a frail little corpse sitting on the most expensive chair ever built.
If the Tau can consolidate more of the Eastern Fringe into an alliance there is a solid chance they will create a faster means of FTL to suit their needs.
Too bad they don't have Necron inertia eliminating drives. lol
Nerivant wrote:
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability." -Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.
And isn't that from the same book that states about Tau sterilization of Human population?
I thought Tau fans said everything in this book is not fluff?
Nerivant wrote:
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability." -Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.
And isn't that from the same book that states about Tau sterilization of Human population?
I thought Tau fans said everything in this book is not fluff?
Well it is a from FFG,a third party and a company which got ship sizes wrong,population of the hive worlds wrong,well the majority of sh** down.
That book was also written by Andy Hoare a Tau fanboy,his Rouge Trader novels sucked(he also thinks that the space battles in 40k occur at hundreds of kilometres,which is contradicted by majority of sources,thinks that 40k ships only have single G accelerations in contrast to the GW material which states high c fractional speeds,the Imperium doesn't have railguns etc....).
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BaronIveagh wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.
Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.
Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.
Not true, as we see in IA:3. The older Tau ships from the period of Initial Imperial contact are slowly being replaced by newer models (IA:3 and BFG FAQ2010)
Their basic infantry weapons have not really changed, but plasma weapons such as the pulse rifle are generally acknowledged as some of the most powerful mass produced infantry arms in 40k (in fluff and the 40kRPGs, anyway). They're quite comparable to bolters, which they have superior range compared to. Further, new marks of power armor come into existence all the time.
Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.
Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFGRPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
Nerivant wrote:
"Even the Fire Caste’s standard issue
weapon, the pulse rifle, is a marvel of technology, surpassing
even the Adeptus Astartes boltgun in its destructive capability." -Deathwatch Core Rulebook, pg 366.
And isn't that from the same book that states about Tau sterilization of Human population?
I thought Tau fans said everything in this book is not fluff?
Well it is a from FFG,a third party and a company which got ship sizes wrong,population of the hive worlds wrong,well the majority of sh** down.
That book was also written by Andy Hoare a Tau fanboy,his Rouge Trader novels sucked(he also thinks that the space battles in 40k occur at hundreds of kilometres,which is contradicted by majority of sources,thinks that 40k ships only have single G accelerations in contrast to the GW material which states high c fractional speeds,the Imperium doesn't have railguns etc....).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Tau technology has hit a brick wall, it hasn't advanced in any noticeable fashion since the Tau were rediscovered, the only changes are how they bolt things together. Even less so, considering their meteoric rise is due to suspiciously convenient discovery of useful alien technology.
Oh, and example of Tau Stagnation, they've known the Imperium for at least a hundred years according to the current timeline, probably multiple centuries.
Pulse Guns haven't changed at all in that time to our knowledge.
Not true, as we see in IA:3. The older Tau ships from the period of Initial Imperial contact are slowly being replaced by newer models (IA:3 and BFG FAQ2010)
Their basic infantry weapons have not really changed, but plasma weapons such as the pulse rifle are generally acknowledged as some of the most powerful mass produced infantry arms in 40k (in fluff and the 40kRPGs, anyway). They're quite comparable to bolters, which they have superior range compared to. Further, new marks of power armor come into existence all the time.
Unlike the Imperium, Tau technology is *not* at a standstill.
Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFGRPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
1. That doesn't necessarily make it wrong.
2. It still shows that the Tau are advancing at a faster rate than the Imperium.
I don't think anyone can debate the point of the Tau advancing faster than the Imperium. They do. That's it.
The Imperium is so big, and those responsible for technology (the Mechanicum) so unreliable, that large scale advancement is difficult, and sometimes seen as HERESY! Isolated Forge Worlds may take possession of an STC or advance one piece of tech on their own, but they only have a small sphere of influence, unless its 'sanctioned' by Mars, which will put it in large scale production. The Tau don't have this problem. They're small, and isolated, so they have a unified core of people adapting and creating new technology. They can easily distribute it to the populace and the army. If they expand they NEED long distance and fast FTL, which they lack currently. Whether it's using human navigators or creating some form of Necron/Tyranid method, they need to be able keep their unity else they will suffer the same problem the Imperium faces now, and their advancement will halt.
And the Tau really don't understand The Warp. They know it's there, they may know there are bad things in it, but they have next to know understanding of how to use it due to a lack of significant Warp presence and an unwillingness in their allies (Kroot) to share their capability. Someone mentioned that they had new drives that are as fast as the Imperiums. If someone would like to state the source it would be much appreciated. Does it state if they can travel the same distances the Imperial Navy can? Because that's the Imperium's greatest advantage, besides it's size : the capability to travel from the the Damocles Gulf to Holy Terra in one jump (albeit with added risk).
Now, they Tau are essentially cut off from the rest of the Galaxy by Warp Storms (correct?). If they are largely protected from the Imperium by a Warp Storm that only has a small gap in it, it works both ways. The Imperium, if they were smart, would keep them in their little bubble. Like a miniature Cadian Gate, just with a lot less threatening and powerful enemies on the other side. Please, correct me on any of the above paragraph, I'm mainly drawing from memory.
Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.
they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.
the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.
they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.
the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)
Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.
they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.
the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.
they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.
the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)
The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.
Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.
they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.
the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.
they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.
the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)
That's in the post.
I said that.
We don't know if there was any time dilation effect. They were slightly more than club thumping primitives. They were in at the time of first contact in a hunter-gatherer or gathered in limited agricultural communities. Not really that far off from where the human race was 6000 years ago. If they are no longer cut off then it makes bigger problems for The Imperium, allowing the Tau to spread in all directions rather than just through The Gulf.
That's complete speculation with little or no fact to back it up.
Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.
they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.
the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.
they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.
the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)
The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.
And where are you getting that last bit?
Gasp! This means that the Tau could of perhaps actually innovated their technology in 6k years of realspace... meaning... The whole warp space debate is non-existant!
Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.
they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.
the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.
they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.
the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)
The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.
And where are you getting that last bit?
Gasp! This means that the Tau could of perhaps actually innovated their technology in 6k years of realspace... meaning... The whole warp space debate is non-existant!
I don't think there really was an argument. Regardless of any effects the Warp Storm has had on their growth, they are where they are now. How long it has taken them to get to where they are has no relevance in this discussion.
Grey Templar wrote:Tau drives can't go as far as Imperial drives can. they simply can't skim the warp for extended periods of time.
they might have fixed the problem with the speed(taking 5 times as long) but the distance limitations will still be in place.
the Tau are no longer cut off by Warp storms. the Warp is actually quite calm around them. this is a big problem for them.
they WERE cut off by a Warp Storm. this warp storm's time dialation is what caused them to go from club thumping primatives to the space faring race they are today.
the Warp Storm just happened to disappate the moment the Etherials showed up(que MORE conspericy theories)
The Tau weren't in the Warp Storm, there were surrounded by Warp Storms. Huge difference.
And where are you getting that last bit?
Gasp! This means that the Tau could of perhaps actually innovated their technology in 6k years of realspace... meaning... The whole warp space debate is non-existant!
Heresy! No xenos scum could surpass the Imperium in any way! The Emperor protects!
Yeah, he's talking out his orifice, there's nothing in the codex that even remotely links the dissipation of the war storm with the rise of the ethereals. Page six just says that the next 1000 years after the Ethereals came along was a time of explosive expansion during which time the Tau launched their first spacecraft...
It's my understanding, from previous parts of this discussion, that the trouble with IoM reaching Tau space is due to the Damocles Gulf which is far from the light of the emperor which means warp travel becomes increasingly riskier...yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, the warp storms are gone but warp is never "calm" unless you mean that you only lose 10% (made-up number because I don't know exactly how dangerous it is) of the ships that enter..
IvanTih wrote:
Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFGRPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
That's sort of funny considering the IoM lost a Lunar and a Dauntless (and 8 escorts) to them at Taros, and had an Overlord and Dictator badly damaged.
GW has declared it fluff. Therefor it's one more conflicting fluff on the Tau.
Please, list Imperial advancements that post date about M36, which was pretty much the last time innovation beyond new weapons configurations on an existing platform took place.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
agnosto wrote:
It's my understanding, from previous parts of this discussion, that the trouble with IoM reaching Tau space is due to the Damocles Gulf which is far from the light of the emperor which means warp travel becomes increasingly riskier...yadda yadda yadda. Yeah, the warp storms are gone but warp is never "calm" unless you mean that you only lose 10% (made-up number because I don't know exactly how dangerous it is) of the ships that enter..
Actually, given the numbers for a single warp anomaly over a year in one of the RT source books, it's likely a lot higher then 10% since it's eaten about 30 ships that year and not been considered a serious enough issue to nail down where it is exactly.
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.
I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing they are doing it fast. Just look at their ships. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.
On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?
Every time they "discover" a new predator / land raider / leman russ variant that they manage to convince the Mechanicus is a new STC variant instead of something cobbled together from other parts is certainly an advancement.
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.
I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing fast. Just look at their ships really. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.
On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?
Maybe never. They seem to be working on scaling down Ion weapons.
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.
I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing fast. Just look at their ships really. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.
On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?
Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.
Melissia wrote:Every time they "discover" a new predator / land raider / leman russ variant that they manage to convince the Mechanicus is a new STC variant instead of something cobbled together from other parts is certainly an advancement.
Can you give a better example? Maybe something that tells me how they come up with new things. Do they do research, and how do they pass off something old as new? Also, is putting different guns on a take advancement? It sounds like a basic retrofit to me.
iproxtaco wrote:
nomotog wrote:
IvanTih wrote:
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
Yes please. I always wonder how it is they advance. From the outside, it looks like they don't advance at all.
I don't think anyone can argue that the tau aren't advancing. they are not only advancing fast. Just look at their ships really. They went from basically boxes on sticks that fought like boxes on sticks all the way to massive super carriers that can deploy swarms of missiles and strike craft. Sure they don't have titans or SM, but I honestly doubt they will ever have them. Titans and SMs don't quite fit in the tau doctrine.
On a related note, when are they going to make a new pulse rifle?
Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.
I was looking for examples of late advancement. I know they did a ton of advancing way back when, but as I understand it they have stoped. More or less.
Also are you just blaming the IoM's size? You would think size whould be a good thing in R&D?
nomotog wrote:Can you give a better example? Maybe something that tells me how they come up with new things. Do they do research, and how do they pass off something old as new? Also, is putting different guns on a take advancement? It sounds like a basic retrofit to me.
Actually they're more likely to pass something new off as old.
As for research, sure. There was a specific attachment to plasma weapons in Dark Heresy which was developed to allow the guns to safely vent in case of an overheat. It didn't always work and when it failed it was a drastic failure, but it was still a vast improvement over the normal risk of the weapon.
nomotog wrote:Can you give a better example? Maybe something that tells me how they come up with new things. Do they do research, and how do they pass off something old as new? Also, is putting different guns on a take advancement? It sounds like a basic retrofit to me.
Actually they're more likely to pass something new off as old.
As for research, sure. There was a specific attachment to plasma weapons in Dark Heresy which was developed to allow the guns to safely vent in case of an overheat. It didn't always work and when it failed it was a drastic failure, but it was still a vast improvement over the normal risk of the weapon.
Ya I meant new as old, but I flubbed the line. Thanks for the info.
Melissia wrote:Every time they "discover" a new predator / land raider / leman russ variant that they manage to convince the Mechanicus is a new STC variant instead of something cobbled together from other parts is certainly an advancement.
Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed, so not a good example. Stormravens have 'always' existed. The pred and landraider variants that haven't 'always' existed are still only new weapon configurations on the same platform that can effectively be swapped out for one another in a chapters forges. While that is innovation, it's not really advancement. AFAIK no 'new' weapon that hasn't already existed before has been strapped into a landraider and called STC. Even the Crusader really is just a rack of bolters tied to a common trigger. Any 'new' tanks or equipment that FW produces tend to get fluff that they have 'always' existed, but are just rare.
iproxtaco wrote:
Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.
It's not clear from whence the Lunar class comes, though some have suggested that it's been around for longer then the M36 date and just was sidelined due to being slower and less powerful then the Murder that it replaced. Ships using the same design elements, such as the Sword, were introduced as early as the Heresy (since Garro mentions them by name during Flight of the Eisenstein as replacing the earlier classes including the Eisenstein itself).
Current Imperial ships are largely inferior to their predecessors in terms of speed, firepower, and carrier launch capability. They do have superior armor, however, at least on the prow, and greater torpedo launch capability. Though this is not as great an advantage as it might otherwise be, since Imperial torps are generally dumb missiles that just go straight ahead. Where imperial ships excel is they're easy to manufacture compared with previous models. Except the ones with fluff that says they aren't.
iproxtaco wrote:Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.
I was looking for examples of late advancement. I know they did a ton of advancing way back when, but as I understand it they have stoped. More or less.
Also are you just blaming the IoM's size? You would think size whould be a good thing in R&D?
Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect.
In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.
iproxtaco wrote:
Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect.
In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.
The problem there is the Imperium 'were' superior to the Tau, but their ships are regressing to simpler and simpler designs due to the lack of the ability to maintain older systems.
I've been mulling over this for a while, and I might point out that a Imperial ships speed through the warp is actually relative, and changes based on warp currents, since a ships warp drive doesn't actually move it through the warp per se, but allows the ship to transition from real-space to warp space, where it travels along the currents. (Which would explain why most ships follow specific routes through the warp rather then just moving willy-nilly around in it.)
iproxtaco wrote:Same for mankind, their ships went from the same, to what they are now : equal or better ships than the Tau's. The point is that they are advancing quickly when the Imperium is not on any large scale.
I was looking for examples of late advancement. I know they did a ton of advancing way back when, but as I understand it they have stoped. More or less.
Also are you just blaming the IoM's size? You would think size whould be a good thing in R&D?
Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect.
In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.
Oh. Well I don't think tau advancement is pointless. The IoM might have super advance vehicles that can tap dance, but if they don't advance, then the tau will just build vehicles that can dance the Charleston and blow away anything the IoM has.
The tau won't get supper huge till after they have supper fast drives. You need the chicken before you can get the egg
iproxtaco wrote: Not in that statement no. I was simply saying that using the example of how much the Tau have advanced their ships is pointless because the Imperium has advanced as far or further in that respect. In a previous post however, I blamed it's size, thus the relative isolation of it's Forge Worlds and the difficulty the it has in distributing any advancements. I would blame the Mechanicum more. They are relatively independent, serving their own motives and agendas, have near complete control over the manufacturing or the Imperium's military manufacturing and have needless and dogmatic beliefs over their technology that hinders any potential advancement rather that helping the Imperium. The Tau have no such problems, but may have in the future, and may even have a worse situation due to an extreme lack in long distance FTL and an already implemented Caste system.
The problem there is the Imperium 'were' superior to the Tau, but their ships are regressing to simpler and simpler designs due to the lack of the ability to maintain older systems.
I've been mulling over this for a while, and I might point out that a Imperial ships speed through the warp is actually relative, and changes based on warp currents, since a ships warp drive doesn't actually move it through the warp per se, but allows the ship to transition from real-space to warp space, where it travels along the currents. (Which would explain why most ships follow specific routes through the warp rather then just moving willy-nilly around in it.)
It is relative. The speed a ship travels is not definite or set, and they don't have a maximum and minimum like a car. They Navigators just 'steer' the ship through the warp using it's currents and energies to propel it. They basically use the Astronomican as a reference point. The Tau method is described as being as fast as Imperial methods now. They main disadvantage is that they can't navigate, they can only jump to the point they have set. It's safer (I think), but it has nothing like the range of Imperial Warp travel. The Tau would be better setting their minds towards developing a similar method to the Necrons or Tyranids.
I don't think it's pointless to advance either. It will just be difficult for them to maintain the same level if they grow to any significant size. They'll suffer many of the same logistical and idealogical problems as the Imperium has now.
I agree! If Cadians and Elysians make good miners imagine what a Space Marine could do to a pile of minerals! He could outwork a standard human a couple hundred times over!
If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!
Because the FAQ specifically states that you can take Fire Warriors specific trained to fend off boarders.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!
I say that TDA is the closest equivilant of a Battlesuit. the Battlesuit is more of a cross between a Dreadnought and Terminator armor.
the 3+ save is compansated for by the suit having 2 wounds.
and the Fire Warrior upgrade for ships only makes you as good as Imperial Guard boarders in a game that abstracts things to a great degree.
Space marines still get a +2 on the boarding roll.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!
I say that TDA is the closest equivilant of a Battlesuit. the Battlesuit is more of a cross between a Dreadnought and Terminator armor.
the 3+ save is compansated for by the suit having 2 wounds.
and the Fire Warrior upgrade for ships only makes you as good as Imperial Guard boarders in a game that abstracts things to a great degree.
Space marines still get a +2 on the boarding roll.
Yeah, but there's a difference between boarding a ship with a +2 bonus and boarding a ship with half it's normal boarding value AND a +2 bonus.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!
I say that TDA is the closest equivilant of a Battlesuit. the Battlesuit is more of a cross between a Dreadnought and Terminator armor.
the 3+ save is compansated for by the suit having 2 wounds.
and the Fire Warrior upgrade for ships only makes you as good as Imperial Guard boarders in a game that abstracts things to a great degree.
Space marines still get a +2 on the boarding roll.
Yeah, but there's a difference between boarding a ship with a +2 bonus and boarding a ship with half it's normal boarding value AND a +2 bonus.
Obviously, but it still doesn't make them reliably equal to Space Marines during boarding actions.
The point about using rules for BFG and not for the 40k skirmish is valid, but it's not as clear cut as that. The BFG game is more fluff oriented and influenced than it's counterpart, and is not OVERLY balanced to the point where the fluff and rules are completely separate. You can't have a game where a single Tactical Squad can take on an entire IG army, it has to be so that every army can compete (disregarding codices that are out of date). The fluff for space battles does not have huge imbalances between the races, so the rules aren't changed too much. Tau vessels having specially trained Tau Marines isn't exactly crazy. It's more a fluff oriented rule than a balance one.
Oh, I agree with the notion that it makes sense but, again, we're seeing a double standard. When I point to Kill-ships they're dismissed as "tech heresy" and "only being mentioned in one source" and yet the Tau anti-boarding parties are completely kosher, despite them only being mentioned in one source.
That said, are specific Chapters represented in BFG? We have to remember that the Templars are not only masters of Space warfare (as illustrated by Helbrecht receiving command at Armageddon) but also CC masters and as such better at boarding actions than "normal" Astartes.
I'll have to agree with the Templars losing a ground war, but considering the difficulty the Tau would have in countering a fleet the size of the BT fleet, I don't see why the BT would bother with ground combat at all.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:Oh, I agree with the notion that it makes sense but, again, we're seeing a double standard. When I point to Kill-ships they're dismissed as "tech heresy" and "only being mentioned in one source" and yet the Tau anti-boarding parties are completely kosher, despite them only being mentioned in one source.
That said, are specific Chapters represented in BFG? We have to remember that the Templars are not only masters of Space warfare (as illustrated by Helbrecht receiving command at Armageddon) but also CC masters and as such better at boarding actions than "normal" Astartes.
I'll have to agree with the Templars losing a ground war, but considering the difficulty the Tau would have in countering a fleet the size of the BT fleet, I don't see why the BT would bother with ground combat at all.
Actually, it's from Two sources, IA:3 and FAQ 2010.
And it says in their own fluff that kill ships are tech heresy.
The problem is that SM ship fluff is wildly conflicted, even to what weapons they are equipped with. In Fluff the Codex Astartes forbids powerful anti-ship weapons (which for some reason people interpret to mean lances) and arguments that there are non-codex chapters have fallen on deaf ears at GW. (One more reason I hate Ward)
Some Chapters are in BFG (thanks to IA:X) However, BT's are (specifically stated) represented by the more generic SM crusade fleet list. It allows you to take the absurdly powerful fortress monastery, but is otherwise similar to the basic SM list.
Its no question the Imperium will get them one day. But the Imperium is getting attacked by Chaos constintly, Orks, Tyranids, and starting with necs. Tau isnt really a threat. Matter of fact Tau is fightin the Necs, Tyranids, and Orks. So at the moment they are "helping" the Imperium. When the Imperium will weaken atleast one one of those armys, they might conider attacking the Tau. But the fear that if they will take many of their good units a way to fight something critical might happen.
BaronIveagh wrote:Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed
Yes, that is what they told the mechanicus isn't it!
And there's many other more minor evidences of advancement such as the plasmagun attachment I noted earlier.
Wait, the Mechanicus told the mechanicus they always existed? Since they're the ones that make the Leman Russ...
I might point out that the plasmagun vents mentioned are also not commonly used because they have a tendency to kill the person using it, more effectively then the gun merely overheating. And, I might point out that while it's 'new' it's not stated how this came about. 'New' could be 'new' like the Lightening being re-discovered or 'new' like 'Hey, look what I made!'
AlmightyWalrus wrote:If Terminator Armour's 2+ save as opposed to the 3+ of the Crisis suit isn't proof of TDA being better because of "game balance", how comes that an FAQ is so commonly accepted as proof that the Tau have overcome the boarding issue? I'm sensing hypocrisy that isn't beneficial for "my" side, and as such I'm lashing out! RAAARGH!
Keep in mind that while TDA provides a 2+/5+sv and Relentless over a 3+ on a basic Veteran, the Crisis Suit provides a 3+ over a 4+ , +1W, 2 Strength, +1 Toughness, plus Jet Infantry, Acute Senses and Relentless over a Fire Warrior.
As for the Templars fleet, lets be honest, when it comes to Space combat, the playing field is far more level on a ship for ship basis than in ground warfare, SM ship in general are poorly designed for ship to ship combat relative to the Imperial Navy or Tau, and we're talking a fleet with hundreds if not thousands of ships that presides over dozens of worlds compared with...*maybe* half a dozen battle barges, maybe a dozen Strike cruishers, and a couple dozen escort vessels?
The Imperium as a whole would have no problems wiping out the Tau and not even noticing if they truly cared to do so, the Damocles Gulf crusade was not exactly a taxing effort on the part of the Imperium, but the Black Templars alone? They wouldn't stand a chance.
Actually, it's from Two sources, IA:3 and FAQ 2010.
And it says in their own fluff that kill ships are tech heresy.
The problem is that SM ship fluff is wildly conflicted, even to what weapons they are equipped with. In Fluff the Codex Astartes forbids powerful anti-ship weapons (which for some reason people interpret to mean lances) and arguments that there are non-codex chapters have fallen on deaf ears at GW. (One more reason I hate Ward)
Some Chapters are in BFG (thanks to IA:X) However, BT's are (specifically stated) represented by the more generic SM crusade fleet list. It allows you to take the absurdly powerful fortress monastery, but is otherwise similar to the basic SM list.
Where is it described as Tech Heresy? I don't find anything about that in the DW rulebook.
As for BTs and lances, what's the argument it's opponent's (I understand that you were in favour of marine lance weapons, yes?) are using? If it's only the Codex Astartes, why would the Templars even pause to consider it?
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Where is it described as Tech Heresy? I don't find anything about that in the DW rulebook.
As for BTs and lances, what's the argument it's opponent's (I understand that you were in favour of marine lance weapons, yes?) are using? If it's only the Codex Astartes, why would the Templars even pause to consider it?
Because it's not like the completely ignore the Codex, and the Imperial Navy and Inquisition actually will pay attention to that more than other...indiscretions. They actively watch that more than other things, precisely for the reason that it gives them the power to challenge the Imperial Navy directly should they rebel. The Inquisition and Imperial Navy do not like Space Marines having vessels designed for ship to ship combat as opposed to planetary invasion. In Battlefleet Gothic, Lances are very rare for Astartes fleets and IIRC restricted to escort vessels. Strike Cruisers and Battle Barges do not bear them.
Space Marines are only forbidden from having strong space fleets by the Codex.
the Codex is NOT enforced, its done on a Voluntary basis with the Imperium as a rule wanting it to be followed.
however, there is nothing keeping a space marine chapter from giving the codex the finger and having any dang ship they please. and if the chapter makes themselves irreplacable the Imperium as a whole can't do anything about it. the Inquisition doesn't like the BT and SWs nopt following the Codex, but since those chapters are utterly loyal and do so many good things then the Inquisition can't, won't, and don't want, to call them out.
If a Chapter stays loyal and fights to the utmost for the Imperium they can fight the war in any way they please.
Grey Templar wrote:Space Marines are only forbidden from having strong space fleets by the Codex.
the Codex is NOT enforced, its done on a Voluntary basis with the Imperium as a rule wanting it to be followed.
It's enforced enough that the surviving loyalist Legions almost went to war to ensure that it became enforced, and the Inquisition will take action against chapters it can prove are in gross direct violation of it. The Inquisition and other chapters and forces may ignore breaches as long as it is convienient, but the Codex isn't supposed to be voluntary.
however, there is nothing keeping a space marine chapter from giving the codex the finger and having any dang ship they please.
Aside from the Inquisition, the Mechanicus and the Imperial Navy which make very sure that Space Marines don't generally get access to Lance equipped ships except in the most exceptional cases or on rare and small escort vessels?
the Inquisition doesn't like the BT and SWs nopt following the Codex, but since those chapters are utterly loyal and do so many good things then the Inquisition can't, won't, and don't want, to call them out.
They haven't wanted to...so far. If the Inquisition truly wanted to they'd have no problems wiping out the SW's or BT's. It may be bloody and destructive, but probably no more a memorable war than hundreds of others conflicts of the like that have occurred throughout the Imperium's history.
Regardless, from what we know of the BT's, there's nothing to suggest they have large numbers of lance equipped vessels.
If a Chapter stays loyal and fights to the utmost for the Imperium they can fight the war in any way they please.
I can think of several chapters which would disagree with that statement.
BaronIveagh wrote:Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed
Yes, that is what they told the mechanicus isn't it!
And there's many other more minor evidences of advancement such as the plasmagun attachment I noted earlier.
Wait, the Mechanicus told the mechanicus they always existed? Since they're the ones that make the Leman Russ...
I might point out that the plasmagun vents mentioned are also not commonly used because they have a tendency to kill the person using it, more effectively then the gun merely overheating. And, I might point out that while it's 'new' it's not stated how this came about. 'New' could be 'new' like the Lightening being re-discovered or 'new' like 'Hey, look what I made!'
Which is an assumption on your part, but that doesn't mean ew things aren't being made.
Another example would be the various small arms (anywhere from a stub revolver to a boltgun) designs that are made by the gunsmiths at Gunmetal City, a notorious hive city in the Calixis sector. A person (of wealth I should note, or a governmental agency) can commission them to make a new design specifically tailored for their needs. ?These are brand new, unique designed, occasionally even mass produced in the more lucrative contracts (such as for PDF forces, for example, or for noble family's or a governor's own enforcers).
And then there's always the Inquisition, which does plenty of research and attempts to develop new tools and methods to combat the various terrors of the galaxy. And even the Ecclesiarchy is always researching chemistry, attempting to provide the right chemical reagents to bless its weapons and armor against the unholy.
it isn't so much that there is a taboo against new stuff, its more like they don't like altering old stuff.
you could build a whole new tank design from scratch and they would listin to you.
the problem arises when you take a Lemun Russ and alter it by putting a better engine or a different weapon on board.
and lets face it, its easier to alter existing designs then it is to start over. especially if those designs have beem tried and proven for 10,000+ years.
the way Forge Worlds get around this is by saying they "found an STC" for this upgrade. they then begin to mass produce it and the Mechanicus at large is none the wiser.
the Mechanicus isn't a united organization either. they have their own little power struggles within and will hide information from each other to further their own careers.
BaronIveagh wrote:Current fluff on the Leman Russ variants is that they have 'always' existed
Yes, that is what they told the mechanicus isn't it!
And there's many other more minor evidences of advancement such as the plasmagun attachment I noted earlier.
Wait, the Mechanicus told the mechanicus they always existed? Since they're the ones that make the Leman Russ...
I might point out that the plasmagun vents mentioned are also not commonly used because they have a tendency to kill the person using it, more effectively then the gun merely overheating. And, I might point out that while it's 'new' it's not stated how this came about. 'New' could be 'new' like the Lightening being re-discovered or 'new' like 'Hey, look what I made!'
Which is an assumption on your part, but that doesn't mean ew things aren't being made.
Another example would be the various small arms (anywhere from a stub revolver to a boltgun) designs that are made by the gunsmiths at Gunmetal City, a notorious hive city in the Calixis sector. A person (of wealth I should note, or a governmental agency) can commission them to make a new design specifically tailored for their needs. ?These are brand new, unique designed, occasionally even mass produced in the more lucrative contracts (such as for PDF forces, for example, or for noble family's or a governor's own enforcers).
And then there's always the Inquisition, which does plenty of research and attempts to develop new tools and methods to combat the various terrors of the galaxy. And even the Ecclesiarchy is always researching chemistry, attempting to provide the right chemical reagents to bless its weapons and armor against the unholy.
The Imperium has steady improvements and mods going on but thats a given. Even a stagnant war machine is going to produce some variants and mods to existing models from time to time.
But you will never see the IoM create on a level the Tau do. The Tau actually invent new ships, tanks, skimmers, suits, rifles, shield gens, stealth fields, and drone technology. While the most basic grunt is carrying a weapon that outranges and out damages a Space Marines bolter.
Plus who knows what other technology they will integrate into their Empire in a few more expansions.
Yes... actually we will. I gave one example, brand new designs of weaponry and ammunition. But there's also the research of the Inquisition to produce new wargear for them to use as well.
It's likely that some of this research makes its way to the Imperium as a whole, but frequently it's too expensive for the Guard and not too useful for the Marines or Sisters (power armor being rather bad for sneaking around), so we don't see it in tabletop much.
IvanTih wrote:
Those new ships still suck compared to the Lunar class cruiser and oh I would use FFGRPGs as a example of anything as they while fun also get the majority of things wrong.
After all Tau can afford to equip their troops with high end gear because unlike the IOM they're small and they don't have problems with the Warp,logistics etc.....
Imperium also advances just slowly,do you want numerous examples?
That's sort of funny considering the IoM lost a Lunar and a Dauntless (and 8 escorts) to them at Taros, and had an Overlord and Dictator badly damaged.
GW has declared it fluff. Therefor it's one more conflicting fluff on the Tau.
Please, list Imperial advancements that post date about M36, which was pretty much the last time innovation beyond new weapons configurations on an existing platform took place.
That same Taros battle also shows Imperial ships not having shields(?),well that's usual for FW(the same idiotic company which thinks that the Caliban is still intact,makes every commander idiotic(example is Shadow Captain Moron from IA8)).BFG shows Tau ships as being weaker than the Imperial.
Let's see the Imperial advances:Experimental Torpedoes in Shadow Point,Lances perfected in M37 by Mars,improved very long plasma batteries,new ships classes,that planet Tesla which was full of experimental weaponry.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Where is it described as Tech Heresy? I don't find anything about that in the DW rulebook.
As for BTs and lances, what's the argument it's opponent's (I understand that you were in favour of marine lance weapons, yes?) are using? If it's only the Codex Astartes, why would the Templars even pause to consider it?
Because it's not like the completely ignore the Codex
Yes they do. The Templars don't care one bit about the so called "rules" in the Codex Astartes. Why the Mechanicus, arguably the most powerful "sub-faction" in the Imperium, would care about the Codex is beyond me. And what would the Imperial Navy do? Shoot them?
As for the Inquisition wiping out Chapters that ignore the CA; last time someone from the Inquisition tried to kill off the Space Wolves, the Wolves held out for 3 years and eventually sent the Inquisition packing.
While it is true that the Imperium almost was plunged into another civil war over the implementation of the Codex Astartes, you would do well to remember who it was that resisted it the most, aswell as how much the Templars cared once the Codex was implemented.
That same Taros battle also shows Imperial ships not having shields(?),well that's usual for FW(the same idiotic company which thinks that the Caliban is still intact,makes every commander idiotic(example is Shadow Captain Moron from IA8)).BFG shows Tau ships as being weaker than the Imperial.
Let's see the Imperial advances:Experimental Torpedoes in Shadow Point,Lances perfected in M37 by Mars,improved very long plasma batteries,new ships classes,that planet Tesla which was full of experimental weaponry.
Have not read shadowpoint for a long time, I'll have to re-read it.
Taros: Actually shields get mentioned several times. The problem is that most of the A'rho's weapons ignore shields, as you might note, only a few weapon hits get through, but it's bombers and torps gut the Hammer of Thrace, combined with a single ion hit that got through it's shields.
If Lances were perfected in M37, why are the versions from before that longer ranged, more powerful and have less draw on the engines?
Very Long range plasma batteries: See above. The Hecutor pattern plasma weapon was used during the Heresy and is both longer ranged and more powerful then is currently mounted on most Imperial ships.
What new ship classes? If you haven't noticed, they're all Lunar hulls with different weapon configurations. The only 'new' class is the Falchion.
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes they do. The Templars don't care one bit about the so called "rules" in the Codex Astartes. Why the Mechanicus, arguably the most powerful "sub-faction" in the Imperium, would care about the Codex is beyond me. And what would the Imperial Navy do? Shoot them?
As for the Inquisition wiping out Chapters that ignore the CA; last time someone from the Inquisition tried to kill off the Space Wolves, the Wolves held out for 3 years and eventually sent the Inquisition packing.
While it is true that the Imperium almost was plunged into another civil war over the implementation of the Codex Astartes, you would do well to remember who it was that resisted it the most, aswell as how much the Templars cared once the Codex was implemented.
I brought up this argument in the 'Space Marine Lances' debate as a reason to keep the str 2 lance option. I was firmly reminded that the BT's do not have their own shipyards, and that if the Nova Frigate, with it's single lance weapon, was cause for concern among the IN and Inq, then a battlebarge full of them would be tantamount to waving a flag that says 'Purge Me!'.
And, while the admech might not care about the Codex Astartes, I'm sure they care that the Inquisition cares.
What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.
I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.
Melissia wrote:Yes... actually we will. I gave one example, brand new designs of weaponry and ammunition. But there's also the research of the Inquisition to produce new wargear for them to use as well.
It's likely that some of this research makes its way to the Imperium as a whole, but frequently it's too expensive for the Guard and not too useful for the Marines or Sisters (power armor being rather bad for sneaking around), so we don't see it in tabletop much.
You will never see them on par with Tau sorry.
If they were, bolters would be replaced with better weapons, lasguns would get upgrades, lascannons would be modfied heavily, stealth fields would be stock for terminators, AT rounds would get a revision, tank accuracey would skyrocket with targeting arrays, the list goes on.
Tau advance tech by inventing totally new weapons and revising designs completely. The way their weapons go, rail rifles stock wouldn't be crazy at all in a few expansions. Thats a weapon that a stock FW could use and would punch holes in power armor.
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nomotog wrote:What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.
I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.
Shadowsun has a stealth field generator, 2 fusion blasters and is accurate like a mofo.
Farsight is a serial killer with 350 years of warfare under his belt in some really brutal battles, wielding a sword believed to be Chaos/Necron/Eldar. Also, he is sporting a plasma rifle and a shield gen in a battlesuit.
If it was just shooting, Shadowsun would prolly be the worse of the two to fight.
Melissia wrote:Yes... actually we will. I gave one example, brand new designs of weaponry and ammunition. But there's also the research of the Inquisition to produce new wargear for them to use as well.
It's likely that some of this research makes its way to the Imperium as a whole, but frequently it's too expensive for the Guard and not too useful for the Marines or Sisters (power armor being rather bad for sneaking around), so we don't see it in tabletop much.
You will never see them on par with Tau sorry.
If they were, bolters would be replaced with better weapons, lasguns would get upgrades, lascannons would be modfied heavily, stealth fields would be stock for terminators, AT rounds would get a revision, tank accuracey would skyrocket with targeting arrays, the list goes on.
Tau advance tech by inventing totally new weapons and revising designs completely. The way their weapons go, rail rifles stock wouldn't be crazy at all in a few expansions. Thats a weapon that a stock FW could use and would punch holes in power armor.
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nomotog wrote:What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.
I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.
Shadowsun has a stealth field generator, 2 fusion blasters and is accurate like a mofo.
Farsight is a serial killer with 350 years of warfare under his belt in some really brutal battles, wielding a sword believed to be Chaos/Necron/Eldar. Also, he is sporting a plasma rifle and a shield gen in a battlesuit.
If it was just shooting, Shadowsun would prolly be the worse of the two to fight.
Anything melee and it would be Farsight.
There is actually some debate on how farsight has lived to be 350. I am of the theory that the name farsight just get passed on each time he dies, so he whouldn't be 350 in my book.
Do we know any BT with names? I don't have a SM codex.
Helbrecht, the Black Templar High Marshal (Chapter Master), easily superior to Shadowsun, about equal or slightly better than Farsight. Grimaldus, who I think is the head Chaplain. He's a very powerful veteran, easily able to take on either of those two.
I am of the same opinion about Farsight, considering most Tau don't live past 50 (correct?), it's more likely that he is corrupted by that sword or the title of Farsight is passed down through his successors.
Just want to point out tau will never develop warp travel because they have no signature in the warp so they can't have navigators which guides all imperim ships.
They can only do what the necrons do, but necrons are still millions of years ahead. Considering that they were one of the first race to develop, meaning they must be a fast evolving race like the tau.
The only reason the tau can develop so fast is because, if the IoM needed to build a new weapon, It would need to changed million and million of factories and trillions and triillions of guns.
Fo the tau, max of 10 billion guns to out fit all its troops.
iproxtaco wrote:Helbrecht, the Black Templar High Marshal (Chapter Master), easily superior to Shadowsun, about equal or slightly better than Farsight. Grimaldus, who I think is the head Chaplain. He's a very powerful veteran, easily able to take on either of those two.
I am of the same opinion about Farsight, considering most Tau don't live past 50 (correct?), it's more likely that he is corrupted by that sword or the title of Farsight is passed down through his successors.
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.
Many believe he died and the name was passed on. I however believe the sword he wields gives him longer life.
Either way, in a h2h fight Farsight would be a brutal foe. He is wearing a suit that is leagues beyond a normal Space Marines armor and even a termi 1 on 1 would get shredded to ribbons if he wasn't melted from plasma first.
Then there is the small fact that Farsight tends to favor cheating in fights, you would have to deal with his honorguard before closing in on him.
Hopefully we get some more info on him in the next dex as a lot of people prefer Farsight/Enclave to Tau/Empire.
Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.
No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...
Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.
Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.
No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...
Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.
I could see it being issued to Stealth Shas'vres, but you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit; it wouldn't be given to all Fire Warriors.
I'm behind Farsight in almost any one-on-one fight. Fast, mobile, and he has a shield generator and a sword that can cut through any armor.
Just read the topic... Black Templars only? Get real. No single SM chapter would stand a chance against the entire Tau empire.
Not without obscene amounts of reinforcement by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.
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Nerivant wrote:you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit
With Tau, 'earn the right' pretty much means 'recieve the required training and prove that you can operate it comfortably.' They're not like superstitious SMs with their hand-me-down relic wargear...
Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.
No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...
Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.
I could see it being issued to Stealth Shas'vres, but you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit; it wouldn't be given to all Fire Warriors.
I'm behind Farsight in almost any one-on-one fight. Fast, mobile, and he has a shield generator and a sword that can cut through any armor.
What if he was fighting the emperor? I think farsight is rather neat. Something like the tau version of what a SM should look like. Fast brutal and just crazy enough to make him scary.
Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.
No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...
Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.
I could see it being issued to Stealth Shas'vres, but you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit; it wouldn't be given to all Fire Warriors.
I'm behind Farsight in almost any one-on-one fight. Fast, mobile, and he has a shield generator and a sword that can cut through any armor.
What if he was fighting the emperor? I think farsight is rather neat. Something like the tau version of what a SM should look like. Fast brutal and just crazy enough to make him scary.
In the realm of this scenario, I think he'd stand a fair chance against anyone; but there are definitely people out there who could break his XV8 in half over their knee.
Archonate wrote:With Tau, 'earn the right' pretty much means 'recieve the required training and prove that you can operate it comfortably.' They're not like superstitious SMs with their hand-me-down relic wargear...
Something not all Fire Warriors can do. Four years on the line before they're able to pilot one.
Though, I really do want to see the current experimental equipment either added to the normal arsenal, or nixed, and new gear move in. Don't think I'm against seeing more XV22's.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.
This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.
This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.
Someone once quipped about another person asking about if the Emperor would ever have TT stats that: 'Sure, set up your army, toss a hand grenade onto the table, and that's the Emperor.'
so you agree with your little blue greys inferiority?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
If they were, bolters would be replaced with better weapons, lasguns would get upgrades, lascannons would be modfied heavily, stealth fields would be stock for terminators, AT rounds would get a revision, tank accuracey would skyrocket with targeting arrays, the list goes on.
1) better than a boltgun?
Yours is not, pulse weapons may be reduced in effectiveness as the nids have shown. Nothing reduces the boltguns effect.
2) upgrading the weapon of bazillions of Guardsmen is such a good and easy to perform idea....But maybe they don't need upgrades?
3) lascannons work fine.
4) stealth is for pussys. And pussys have been caught in thier hiding before and ever will.
5) the AT of the IoM kills more in a day than Tau can in 1 millenia.
6) Imperium has BS 5, Tau not. Natural by the statline.
7) Thats your whole list?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Tau advance tech by inventing totally new weapons and revising designs completely. The way their weapons go, rail rifles stock wouldn't be crazy at all in a few expansions. Thats a weapon that a stock FW could use and would punch holes in power armor.
Its not likely to invent something new if you know a lot. The mechanicum may not show everything and surely has a ton of possible
improvements just stored somewhere and cannot find it ATM.
Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.
Major mistake. The Tau have to encounter all the baddies in 5th ed. This will go on. NO more pissing on the imperiums lawn without the
old grumpy just ignoring their cries for help when the fangs of the nid fleets close....
Archonate wrote:No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...
Until GW decides so, no one will be wiped.
nomtog wrote:
What if he was fighting the emperor? I think farsight is rather neat. Something like the tau version of what a SM should look like. Fast brutal and just crazy enough to make him scary.
VS the emperor? one who could have a 100.000 kneel before him just by willing it?
It won't end in any identifiable remains of that xenos....
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.
This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.
This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.
Someone once quipped about another person asking about if the Emperor would ever have TT stats that: 'Sure, set up your army, toss a hand grenade onto the table, and that's the Emperor.'
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.
This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BaronIveagh wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Farsights actual age is a point of some debate for sure.
This is because GW keeps moving the dates around for the Gulf Crusade, etc. If it was 20 years ago, it makes sense. If it was 200 years ago, it starts getting odd.
Someone once quipped about another person asking about if the Emperor would ever have TT stats that: 'Sure, set up your army, toss a hand grenade onto the table, and that's the Emperor.'
Do you still get to make a armor save?
No, but I'd get a cover save since I'd be bending over and kissing my rear goodbye.
1hadhq wrote:Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.
... I think the concept of hypothesis is lost on you... As you post in this thread dedicated to an entirely hypothetical situation.
There is no concept of hypotheosis in the quoted post.
Just ignorance to the fact GW will balance any standard weapon and last time I've seen such fanboish wishlisting was a group of younger
gamers getting lost on armies of "Kaldor Draigos" ( not exactly him but..).
A hypothetical situation needs a common base to draw from.
Making a special weapon a standard weapon armywide isn't supported in fluff nor rules.
Archonate wrote:Well with the Tau reproducing like Tyranids, and technologically advancing toward Necrondom, I'd say by the time the slow grinding wheels of imperial bureaucracy organized such an attack, in several hundred years, not only would they take unprecedented losses, but quite possibly fail entirely as the rest of the imperium is left far too vulnerable in the meantime.
No I think the imperium had one chance at wiping out the Tau, and they missed it...
Consider: Once Commander Shadowsun finishes field testing the XV22 Stealth Battlesuit it could become standard issue for all Firewarriors... That would amount to SMs pissin in their pants as they melt under Tau plasma like a ripper swarm under heavy flamers. And that's just one wargear upgrade.
Tau reproducing by the trillions every day? Off the drugs please. They still aren't at all close to where the Necrons are. So, if the Imperium tried to defeat the Tau NOW, they would lose? BS. The Imperium could EASILY break the Tau, how long do you think a TINY empire like the Tau can expand and remain alive? Do you realize the size of the Tau compared to size of the Imperium? It's a common misconception that the Imperium is near breaking point. If the Tau have a militarization level of about 20-30% of an empire that is out-numbered by the average Imperial system, if the Imperium ever decided that it needed a large scale mobilization of even half that, they would have several hundred times the population of the Tau in Guardsmen alone. Please don't say anything like "Oh they could never do that" remember that this is a hypothetical thread. IF they ever decided that the Imperium actually was at the point of failing, the High Lords WOULD do something about it. Imagine if they decided that every able bodied man was to take up arms? The Tau are already horribly outnumbered by the IDLE Guard regiments.
Yeah, those Space Marines aren't just going to stand there and die, even if these make believe ultra plasma rifles that just melt them exist in the future. They have many other ways of detecting a stealthed unit other than human sight. Read the beginning of Horus Rising, there were enemies with superior stealth technology than the Tau, the Astartes lost a total of 1 marine with one major injury and another minor injury in which the Space Marine continued fighting. Enemy losses were 100%, and they were using A LOT more powerful weapons.
1hadhq wrote:Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.
... I think the concept of hypothesis is lost on you... As you post in this thread dedicated to an entirely hypothetical situation.
There is no concept of hypotheosis in the quoted post.
Just ignorance to the fact GW will balance any standard weapon and last time I've seen such fanboish wishlisting was a group of younger
gamers getting lost on armies of "Kaldor Draigos" ( not exactly him but..).
A hypothetical situation needs a common base to draw from.
Making a special weapon a standard weapon armywide isn't supported in fluff nor rules.
1. Hive Fleet Gorgon was adapting to Tau weaponry via hardened carapaces. If a Pulse Rifle was having little effect a bolter would have little to no effect.
2. Rail Rifles are being field tested for mainline fronts including infantry. If you want to discuss a future conflict factor in that rail rifle tech could be on the battlefield in a future capacity. Tau aren't the IoM, the tests of today are often the weapons of tommorow. If a few battlesuits can wreck an Imperial Regiment, it is totally plausible a Cadre of FWs could sport Rail Rifles.
3. Stealth Suits are far from "pussy" means of fighting. They require an operator to often go deep into enemy lines and attack. While fighting a Titan, countless stealth suit pilots sacraficed themselves to try and halt it only to die. Pretty far from a cry baby who shoots and runs away when he gets shot at.
4. Lascannons are fine, for garbage. The Tau have better weapons that punch through armor in a clean shot from insane ranges and can be operated by a single pilot in a suit.
5. BS5 is something super human senses can provide. Having markerlights and targeting arrays do the work for basic troops is by far a superior way of obtaining that level of accuracey. When a drone dies send another. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau Tech in FW helmets allows them to obtain a higher BS at some point either. If Rail tech can be streamlined down into a FWs hand, I wouldn't be shocked if TA tech gets scaled down either.
1hadhq wrote:Really railrifles? Youre lost in wishlisting good sir.
... I think the concept of hypothesis is lost on you... As you post in this thread dedicated to an entirely hypothetical situation.
There is no concept of hypotheosis in the quoted post.
Just ignorance to the fact GW will balance any standard weapon and last time I've seen such fanboish wishlisting was a group of younger
gamers getting lost on armies of "Kaldor Draigos" ( not exactly him but..).
A hypothetical situation needs a common base to draw from.
Making a special weapon a standard weapon armywide isn't supported in fluff nor rules.
1. Hive Fleet Gorgon was adapting to Tau weaponry via hardened carapaces. If a Pulse Rifle was having little effect a bolter would have little to no effect.
2. Rail Rifles are being field tested for mainline fronts including infantry. If you want to discuss a future conflict factor in that rail rifle tech could be on the battlefield in a future capacity. Tau aren't the IoM, the tests of today are often the weapons of tommorow. If a few battlesuits can wreck an Imperial Regiment, it is totally plausible a Cadre of FWs could sport Rail Rifles.
3. Stealth Suits are far from "pussy" means of fighting. They require an operator to often go deep into enemy lines and attack. While fighting a Titan, countless stealth suit pilots sacraficed themselves to try and halt it only to die. Pretty far from a cry baby who shoots and runs away when he gets shot at.
4. Lascannons are fine, for garbage. The Tau have better weapons that punch through armor in a clean shot from insane ranges and can be operated by a single pilot in a suit.
5. BS5 is something super human senses can provide. Having markerlights and targeting arrays do the work for basic troops is by far a superior way of obtaining that level of accuracey. When a drone dies send another. I wouldn't be surprised if Tau Tech in FW helmets allows them to obtain a higher BS at some point either. If Rail tech can be streamlined down into a FWs hand, I wouldn't be shocked if TA tech gets scaled down either.
1. Wrong. The Tyranids developed a specialized coating on their armour which dissipated plasma rifle shots, making them very ineffective. Kroot weapons were effective, being regular kinetic rounds. Bolters would annihilate.
2. Citation on field testing Rail Rifles for regular infantry please. I would agree than there's nothing to say that in the future rail rifles COULD be used, but the idea isn't close yet without proof. A few suits taking out a whole Guard regiment? DON'T MAKE STUFF UP. Or, give us they source. Until then it's BS. If you're going to sue examples of future, possible weapons, fine. In the next 50 years, the Mechanicum will find an STC that tells them how to make rail-rifles that are as reliable as the lasgun.
3. Stealth Suits are far from a pussy idea. It's a smart idea, but not as effective as a lot of players make it out to be. If the wearers don't take out their enemy very quickly, they will be targeted, regardless of stealth. A stealth suit trying to take down a marauding Titan is fairly stupid.
4. Lascannons are now garbage? Move along. They can also take out a Crisis suit or Tau skimmer in a single shot, if you think Tau weapons are so amazingly powerful, I'll think the same for the Imperiums. The lascannon can also be wielded by a single person. A Space Marine. A Dreadnought. A weapons team, granted is two people, but it's only two humans, as opposed to a mechanised exo-suit.
5. Keep in-game rules out please. In fluff, Markerlights help identify and locate a target and provide information like distance and location. A Tau is not going to be any better at aiming even with it. Sure, his rifle is more accurate, but is ability to aim is not improved. Still, markerlights are something that the Imperium really does lack.
iproxtaco wrote:
1. Wrong. The Tyranids developed a specialized coating on their armour which dissipated plasma rifle shots, making them very ineffective. Kroot weapons were effective, being regular kinetic rounds. Bolters would annihilate.
2. Citation on field testing Rail Rifles for regular infantry please. I would agree than there's nothing to say that in the future rail rifles COULD be used, but the idea isn't close yet without proof. A few suits taking out a whole Guard regiment? DON'T MAKE STUFF UP. Or, give us they source. Until then it's BS. If you're going to sue examples of future, possible weapons, fine. In the next 50 years, the Mechanicum will find an STC that tells them how to make rail-rifles that are as reliable as the lasgun.
3. Stealth Suits are far from a pussy idea. It's a smart idea, but not as effective as a lot of players make it out to be. If the wearers don't take out their enemy very quickly, they will be targeted, regardless of stealth. A stealth suit trying to take down a marauding Titan is fairly stupid.
4. Lascannons are now garbage? Move along. They can also take out a Crisis suit or Tau skimmer in a single shot, if you think Tau weapons are so amazingly powerful, I'll think the same for the Imperiums. The lascannon can also be wielded by a single person. A Space Marine. A Dreadnought. A weapons team, granted is two people, but it's only two humans, as opposed to a mechanised exo-suit.
5. Keep in-game rules out please. In fluff, Markerlights help identify and locate a target and provide information like distance and location. A Tau is not going to be any better at aiming even with it. Sure, his rifle is more accurate, but is ability to aim is not improved. Still, markerlights are something that the Imperium really does lack.
1. Dunno, don't have the Tyranid codex.
2. Codex Tau Empire, Page 29. "The rail rifle is an implementation of the technology utilized in the railgun that is mounted on vehicles and Broadside battlesuits. It has only recently been authorized for issue to front-line units, having completed an extensive field testing phase."
3. agree
4. Yeah but we can one-shot a Monolith without being incredibly lucky.
5. Yeah but if the markerlight "guide other weapons it [the target] with unerring accuracy" (Codex Tau Empire page 29), it doesn't matter how proficient the gunner is; one soldier paints the target the computers do the rest and all anyone else has to do is pull the trigger. Just think about the smart weapons in Judge Dredd. I think you're thinking in terms of modern military and less in terms of 40,000 years in the future and what a slightly similar weapon system would be capable of. I couldn't find anything in the codex that makes the markerlight as simple as you painted it to be.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Yes they do. The Templars don't care one bit about the so called "rules" in the Codex Astartes.
I'm sorry, no offense intended, but the way you wrote that comes across like an angsty teenager angry at his dad for making him follow the so called "rules".
Why the Mechanicus, arguably the most powerful "sub-faction" in the Imperium, would care about the Codex is beyond me.
Because it was put in place to prevent another Space Marine rebellion, like the one that schismed the Mechanicus in two? It's part of Imperial Law? It governs not only combat doctrine and internal policy but how other Imperial organizations interact with them.
There's a reason the BT codex states that the Inquisition is suspicious of them and pays them special attention.
And what would the Imperial Navy do? Shoot them?
Yes? If the Imperial Navy feels that a Space Marine fleet is becoming too powerful, too oriented for ship to ship combat and no longer oriented towards orbital assaults, then those Space Marines have the capacity to challenge the Imperium's primary means of controlling them, and thus considers them a threat.
Actually, IIRC, the Imperial Navy did in fact open fire on the Imperial Fists (the BT's founders) when they would not submit to the Codex Astartes.
As for the Inquisition wiping out Chapters that ignore the CA; last time someone from the Inquisition tried to kill off the Space Wolves, the Wolves held out for 3 years and eventually sent the Inquisition packing.
They sent the *Ecclesiarchy* packing, if I'm remembering my fluff right (don't have the book in front of me). Not the same thing, with nowhere near the resources, means, or weight of numbers. An Inquisitor requisitioning assassins, a couple dozen IG regiments, and a sector battlegroup would wipe out the SW's fairly quickly and decisively, unless the SW's are suddenly able to defeat superior space forces with ships designed for ship to ship combat and kill 30-40 guardsmen each (far in excess of the 10-12 for 1 ratio given by the SM codecies).
While it is true that the Imperium almost was plunged into another civil war over the implementation of the Codex Astartes, you would do well to remember who it was that resisted it the most
Dorn? Yes. He relented in the end however and now his Imperial Fists are one of the finest exemplars of a Codex chapter.
aswell as how much the Templars cared once the Codex was implemented.
iproxtaco wrote: 1. Wrong. The Tyranids developed a specialized coating on their armour which dissipated plasma rifle shots, making them very ineffective. Kroot weapons were effective, being regular kinetic rounds. Bolters would annihilate.
2. Citation on field testing Rail Rifles for regular infantry please. I would agree than there's nothing to say that in the future rail rifles COULD be used, but the idea isn't close yet without proof. A few suits taking out a whole Guard regiment? DON'T MAKE STUFF UP. Or, give us they source. Until then it's BS. If you're going to sue examples of future, possible weapons, fine. In the next 50 years, the Mechanicum will find an STC that tells them how to make rail-rifles that are as reliable as the lasgun.
3. Stealth Suits are far from a pussy idea. It's a smart idea, but not as effective as a lot of players make it out to be. If the wearers don't take out their enemy very quickly, they will be targeted, regardless of stealth. A stealth suit trying to take down a marauding Titan is fairly stupid.
4. Lascannons are now garbage? Move along. They can also take out a Crisis suit or Tau skimmer in a single shot, if you think Tau weapons are so amazingly powerful, I'll think the same for the Imperiums. The lascannon can also be wielded by a single person. A Space Marine. A Dreadnought. A weapons team, granted is two people, but it's only two humans, as opposed to a mechanised exo-suit.
5. Keep in-game rules out please. In fluff, Markerlights help identify and locate a target and provide information like distance and location. A Tau is not going to be any better at aiming even with it. Sure, his rifle is more accurate, but is ability to aim is not improved. Still, markerlights are something that the Imperium really does lack.
1. Dunno, don't have the Tyranid codex.
2. Codex Tau Empire, Page 29. "The rail rifle is an implementation of the technology utilized in the railgun that is mounted on vehicles and Broadside battlesuits. It has only recently been authorized for issue to front-line units, having completed an extensive field testing phase."
3. agree
4. Yeah but we can one-shot a Monolith without being incredibly lucky.
5. Yeah but if the markerlight "guide other weapons it [the target] with unerring accuracy" (Codex Tau Empire page 29), it doesn't matter how proficient the gunner is; one soldier paints the target the computers do the rest and all anyone else has to do is pull the trigger. Just think about the smart weapons in Judge Dredd. I think you're thinking in terms of modern military and less in terms of 40,000 years in the future and what a slightly similar weapon system would be capable of. I couldn't find anything in the codex that makes the markerlight as simple as you painted it to be.
Cheers.
1. It's in the Tyranid Codex, page 18 onwards.
2. They're used in a heavy weapons capacity, being large, and not practical for the regular infantry just now. He was suggesting that the Tau are testing them as standard infantry weapons, as in a replacement or supplement to the Plasma Rifle. No source has been given about the matter. Or he is talking about rail rifle teams, in which case he is just plain Bsing and wrong.
4. Still takes a fair amount of luck to one-shot a Monolith with anything outside of apoc.
5. The Markerlights locate a target and provide information to the Fire Warriors. It can then be used in sync with a seeker missile, or other automated weapons, but its not going to physically turn the infantryman's rifle to the target. The Fire Warrior just knows where it is, how far, etc. But actually hitting the target is all down to the wielders ability to aim, which is not going to be at all better on average than a Guardsmens.
2. They're used in a heavy weapons capacity, being large, and not practical for the regular infantry just now. He was suggesting that the Tau are testing them as standard infantry weapons, as in a replacement or supplement to the Plasma Rifle. No source has been given about the matter. Or he is talking about rail rifle teams, in which case he is just plain Bsing and wrong.
4. Still takes a fair amount of luck to one-shot an Monolith with anything outside of apoc.
5. The Markerlights locate a target and provide information to the Fire Warriors. It can then be used in sync with a seeker missile, or other automated weapons, but its not going to physically turn the infantryman's rifle to the target. The Fire Warrior just knows where it is, how far, etc. But actually hitting the target is all down to the wielders ability to aim, which is not going to be at all better on average than a Guardsmens.
1. It explains why I don't know.
2. I own a fair amount of the models and they're not any larger than a pulse rifle. Gamewise I doubt they'll ever make them standard issue. Fluffwise, I could see it on a limited basis...maybe with Ethereal guard FWs..
4. Not too much 4+ to glance or pen and 4+ to kill. One unit of broadsides has done it for me, every game I've played vs. Necrons.
5. If you've got some fluff that's not in the codex, fine by me but the codex says that the MLs are making the weapons accurate, nothing about the firer. Modern, common sense would say that the firer needs to have a direct impact but we're talking about a fantasy universe with magic swords and giant robots.
Regarding the pulse rifle thing, the exact quote is:
"in response to the powerful pulse rifles of the tau firewarriors, carapace was restructured, bone recombined and tissue reknitted, dramaticaly increasing the tyranid's ressistance to tau ordnance.
In reply, the tau reconfigured their weapon loadouts, retro-fitting pulse rifles to use new prototypes or older ammunition, ballistics which the Tyrannids had not before encountered and hence
had not adapted to."
The older ( and newer! ) variants of Tau ammunition were effective because they weren't yet encountered by the Tyranid horde and not because the Hivefleet in question had any problems to
adapt to kinetic rounds. The Kroot haven't even been mentioned in this context.
2. I own a fair amount of the models and they're not any larger than a pulse rifle. Gamewise I doubt they'll ever make them standard issue. Fluffwise, I could see it on a limited basis...maybe with Ethereal guard FWs..
4. Not too much 4+ to glance or pen and 4+ to kill. One unit of broadsides has done it for me, every game I've played vs. Necrons.
5. If you've got some fluff that's not in the codex, fine by me but the codex says that the MLs are making the weapons accurate, nothing about the firer. Modern, common sense would say that the firer needs to have a direct impact but we're talking about a fantasy universe with magic swords and giant robots.
2. Pathfinders get rail rifles. They also get slightly better carbines too. I say that they are more elite then font line. I don't think the tau will put rail rifles in the hands of base troops. (It seems like they are working on getting ion cannons smaller instead, so Iron rifles. just don't hold your breath. It will take time.) Their is presumably a reason for this. I think that rail rifles require a lot of computing and calculations or their rounds will brake apart in air. That's why you only see them on vehicles or with snipers.
Page 20 -400901.M41 Following heavy losses by Tau Firewarriors, the Termagaunts and Hormogaunts quickly develop an almost total immunity to pulse-rifle fire. Sha'draigs main settlement is overrun and Shas'el Vorcah withdraws his forces to the mountains.
505901.M41 Stealth Teams recover several hundred Kroot rifles from the ruins of Pechallai's defences. The retrieved weapons is distributed amongst Vorcha's surviving Firewarriors.
Kroot weapons proved effective because they were kinetic, hence saying bolters would have been worse than pulse-rifles is stupid and borne out of fanboyism and trolling.
On the topic of Markerlights. The lights are used to identify targets and provide information about it to assets connected to the team using it or the general battle network. To improve the Firewarriors basic ability to aim with his weapon would require the device to physically aim the rifle for the soldier. It does not do this, therefore it only gives the Tau information gor them to interpret independently. It does not improve their ability to aim.
The rail-rifles are still huge, complicated, unwieldy with a low rate of fire, thus unsuitable for mainstream infantry at present or in the near future unless you can give me the source which states that they have been adapted to pulse-rifle ease of use.
More compact weapons with shorter range and reduced stopping power have been the trend in infantry weapons over the past century, with larger rifles, often newer variants of old standard infantry rifles, going to trained marksmen, instead of being the standard weapon. In terms of models, pulse rifles are probably oversized for visual reasons, and I'd hazard a guess they'd carry a great deal more ammo than rail rifles as well.
iproxtaco wrote:Page 20 -400901.M41 Following heavy losses by Tau Firewarriors, the Termagaunts and Hormogaunts quickly develop an almost total immunity to pulse-rifle fire. Sha'draigs main settlement is overrun and Shas'el Vorcah withdraws his forces to the mountains.
505901.M41 Stealth Teams recover several hundred Kroot rifles from the ruins of Pechallai's defences. The retrieved weapons is distributed amongst Vorcha's surviving Firewarriors.
Kroot weapons proved effective because they were kinetic, hence saying bolters would have been worse than pulse-rifles is stupid and borne out of fanboyism and trolling.
I seriously don't get your problem. The Tyrannid forces adapt to Pulse Rifles because those were the most common weapon amonst their enemies.
Kroot rifles worked because Gorgon hadn't adapted to them at this point. So, how exactly did you get the idea that firewarriors armed with bolters, instead of pulserifles, would have been more efficient?
Wouldn't the Nids simply have adapted a high ressistance to boltgun fire instead or are bolters somehow magicaly protected from Gorgon's ability to adapt to the technology and strategy of it's enemy?
Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
I might point out that this is again GW magic stepping in, as far more tyranids have died to lasguns, which are also energy based, then pulse rifles, but this has never happened to the Imperium.
The way it couched it, they made it seem as though Gorgon didn't develop any kind of "reflective coating"--but rather they generated the ability to have a mucous coating on their carapaces that made 'pulse' weapons lose much of their effectiveness.
How that would work and why it wouldn't affect las weapons I do not know.
iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
I might point out that this is again GW magic stepping in, as far more tyranids have died to lasguns, which are also energy based, then pulse rifles, but this has never happened to the Imperium.
A pulse-rifle is quite different to a lasgun. They don't work in the same way. A pulse-rifle is a plasma launcher, a lasgun is a powerful laser. The coating is obviously designed for the plasma bolts of Tau weaponry, and not the lasers of the Imperial Guard. It's quite obvious when it mentions no hindrance to the Cadians when they arrive.
Archonate wrote:Just read the topic... Black Templars only? Get real. No single SM chapter would stand a chance against the entire Tau empire.
Not without obscene amounts of reinforcement by the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Navy.
It all depends, actually. Are we talking about straight-up slugfests? Attrition battles, ground wars, et al?
Because I've pretty comfortably laid out ways this could work. If the goal is a, damn the consequences exterminate them all and render their worlds uninhabitable salting the worlds and leaving them barren wastes--it's doable. The Black Templars will probably be wiped out or have to coordinate synchronized bombardments across the breadth of the Tau Empire, but it's doable.
Ground wars for territory, yeah that won't work. They'd be wiped out.
Nerivant wrote:you have to earn the right to wear a battlesuit
With Tau, 'earn the right' pretty much means 'recieve the required training and prove that you can operate it comfortably.' They're not like superstitious SMs with their hand-me-down relic wargear...
You've read the same book that I have, right? The Tau Empire book, where they mention that to become a Battlesuit Pilot or any amount of advancement, the Fire Caste have to undergo a series of 'Trials', yes?
Tau are just as, if not more, superstitious as the Imperium. The only difference is that it's less like the Imperium at large and more like the Astartes.
Plus, as has been mentioned, the cybernetic upgrades between a Fire Warrior and his suit make them 'twitchy' outside of their suits. They had the same problem with the early rail rifles, where the target uplink systems were frying the nervous systems of the Fire Warriors operating them.
iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.
From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.
If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.
nomotog wrote:What about in a person to person basis. How would the different named charters do in one on one fights? Farsight/sadowstrong/that other guy Vs the different BT with their own stat blocks.
I don't think sadowstrong will do too well in a stand up fight. She is more of a commander. Farsight he should be able to rack up some kills.
Well shadowsun is able to hold her own in melee actually, especially with her inv. save and drones wall. But she wouldn't (couldn't?) excel in this because her being valuable is due mostly to her deep-striking able-to-pop-two-tanks-a-turn then assault another-ness.
That means you could literally kill three transports in a turn with her.
Then get you blade storms to clean things up
And farsight could probably kill any individual templar one-on-one.
iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.
From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.
If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.
Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner. The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.
Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.
That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.
Plus, as has been mentioned, the cybernetic upgrades between a Fire Warrior and his suit make them 'twitchy' outside of their suits. They had the same problem with the early rail rifles, where the target uplink systems were frying the nervous systems of the Fire Warriors operating them.
@ the twitchiness, I also previously mentioned the same thing happens to Titan Princeps/Moderati. It even happens to the Callidus temple assassins, being in a body not your own, especially one that makes you infinitely more powerful, will cause profound psychological trauma. Callidus aren't "twitchy" because they're comfortable forgetting who they were.
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iproxtaco wrote:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.
From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.
If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.
Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.
Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.
That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.
...in case you haven't noticed, ever single player of every single faction will support their faction to the end. Arguments are unavoidable to the ambiguous nature of the 41str millennium...
iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.
From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.
If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.
Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.
Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.
That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.
Ok man, first I assumed we were talking about Gorgon. It was a hyper adaptive hive, more so than the other Nids fought to date. It had no problem adapting both its fleet assets and its ground assets equally. To date, it is perhaps the most dangerous Hive Fleet to ever exist, simply because it adapted to technology in a way that could shatter every army thrown at it simply by rendering their guns plinkers.
So the math on your bolters is worthless, they wouldn't do anything. If the Gorgon found a way to adapt to the Tau arsenal it would have little problem adapting to the Imperial Arsenal. Which is heavily reliant on a single type of weapon, the Lasgun.
Second, Dreads vs suits is an odd match up between units. In CC a Dread can wreck a suit, but in terms of mobility a suit can dance around a Dread with ease. In fluff this becomes even more apparent as suits are depicted as damn near flying around battlefileds. The fight could very well go either way largely dependant on where they encounter each other. As for the weapons and shield gens, again, an odd match up. Largley dependant on what each is kitted with.
Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.
Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.
That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.
So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?
BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.
So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?
Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.
iproxtaco wrote:Simply put, Beekcake originally said that Bolter rounds would have been no more effective against Hive Fleet Gorgon than pulse-rifles. Gorgon adapted to produce a coating which rendered pulse-rifles ineffective due to them being energy based. Kroot rifles were kinetic and proved to be quite effective because of this. Bolters are kinetic based and more powerful than Kroot rifles, therefore they would have been VERY effective against Gorgon. The only thing you can do to counter a kinetic impact based weapon is develop stronger armour, fancy coatings would do nothing. Unless Gorgon wanted to expend a HUGE amount of resources developing very thick or strong armour on its base warrior organisms which it produces by the millions, nearly expending all of its resources in the process, the bolter would prove to be a lot more effective than the pulse-rifle.
The Hive Fleet was adapting to EVERYTHING being thrown at it.
From ground tactics to the Tau arsenal it adapted and overcame. It wasn't until the combined arms of both the Imperial and Tau ships weapons overwhelmed it, the Nids were defeated.
If you think Bolters wouldn't easily be overcome after a few battles you're nuts. Hardened caparace then game. Being a slower round would mean nothing, it adapted to the wide spread threats like Pulse Rifles and Ion rounds, if bolters became the common round it would adapt all the same. Second, the worst case scenario would be an evolution that renders something like the lasgun worthless, since the Imperium wouldn't be able to replace them with any other weapons in time.
Except we're talking about a fixed event, not something potentially in the future or open to interpretation in that manner.
The Imperium has fought the Tyranids many more times than the Tau have, and yet there's nothing to suggest that this has ever proved effective against the bolter or the lasgun.
Considering the bolter is not energy based but kinetic based, creating a protective coating would not work the same. Bolt rounds are designed to penetrate armour and soft targets and detonate inside. To stop a high velocity and powerful impact on a very small area, you need very strong or very thick armour something which the Tyranids do not have the resources to apply to every one of the smallest warrior organisms. Even if they stopped the rounds from penetrating, they would detonate on the surface and crack the armour.
That's one irritating thing about arguing with some Tau players about the Tau. Everything has to swing the Tau's way. If a Crisis suit takes on a Dreadnought, who cares if the Dreadnought can walk faster than it or carries a twin-linked lascannon and had superior armour, strength and CC ability, eh? Everything will go right for the Crisis suit, the dreadnoughts obvious advantages be dammed.
Ok man, first I assumed we were talking about Gorgon. It was a hyper adaptive hive, more so than the other Nids fought to date. It had no problem adapting both its fleet assets and its ground assets equally. To date, it is perhaps the most dangerous Hive Fleet to ever exist, simply because it adapted to technology in a way that could shatter every army thrown at it simply by rendering their guns plinkers.
So the math on your bolters is worthless, they wouldn't do anything. If the Gorgon found a way to adapt to the Tau arsenal it would have little problem adapting to the Imperial Arsenal. Which is heavily reliant on a single type of weapon, the Lasgun.
Second, Dreads vs suits is an odd match up between units. In CC a Dread can wreck a suit, but in terms of mobility a suit can dance around a Dread with ease. In fluff this becomes even more apparent as suits are depicted as damn near flying around battlefileds. The fight could very well go either way largely dependant on where they encounter each other. As for the weapons and shield gens, again, an odd match up. Largley dependant on what each is kitted with.
+1 on the suit vs. dread view.
They really do fly in the fluff, only landing to fire, cool their jets, save fuel etc.
Also, in fluff, XV88s wreck dreads. the railguns destroy basically anything, include bulky walkers
And finally, one weapon which I can see obliterating dreads ( on the TT, yes, but ESPECIALLY in the fluff) are the fusion cascades. If you take the pair, you get d6 melta hits. Rapid fire guns max out at 2 shots per turn, and these at three each, so these would be firing melta at a rate higher than would be easy to imagine. Melta-minigun.
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Nerivant wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.
So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?
Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.
...they could always manipulate the orks into fighting the Nids...
BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.
So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?
Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.
Perhaps it can dissipate gentle puffs of unusually warm air better than it can withstand real weapons?
Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour. They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.
And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas. The properties of the plasma obviously had a weakness which the Tyranids exploited. You'd think that if the same were true of Bolters and lasguns, at least a few of the splinter fleets that the Imperium have to deal with would adapt in some way. Obviously not. I won't bother going over the difference between a kinetic bolter round and an energy based Pule round. Clearly the logic is lost on some people.
Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army.
iproxtaco wrote:Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour? They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.
And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas.
Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army, so I don't.
This is the threat of Hive Fleet Gorgon.
It was capable of adapting to weapons like nothing before it. Perhaps the last galaxy to come in contact with it had highly adaptive weaponry, nobody knows.
They somehow have the capacity to mutate and evolve on a scale that no other Nid fleet has had. As for gathering resources? The Imperial Guard and PDF defend the Imperium, with their weapons rendered useless, what on earth is going to stop the Nids from getting enough Biomass to counter a few thousand Space Marines?
The Tau realized the horrendous threat posed by Gorgon and sent a small fleet to hunt down the splinter fleet and destroy it. If it ever regains full power the fleet could possibly wipe out large portions of any empire it comes in contact with.
So how exactly do the Tyranids obtain the bio-mass to effectively protect every single organism with Terminator or greater armour and protect themselves against lasguns? Using the anti-pulse adaptation that didn't work with lasguns? Or just adapt again? Gorgon is GONE. There are thousands of fleets, it's the only one to adapt to pulse-rifles, didn't do it for kinetic rounds. Why haven't the others yet? Despite being able to adapt to any other situation? Firstly, because doing so when attacking the Imperium would be inefficient, and secondly, because there is no need to.
iproxtaco wrote:Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour. They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.
And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas. The properties of the plasma obviously had a weakness which the Tyranids exploited. You'd think that if the same were true of Bolters and lasguns, at least a few of the splinter fleets that the Imperium have to deal with would adapt in some way. Obviously not.
I won't bother going over the difference between a kinetic bolter round and an energy based Pule round. Clearly the logic is lost on some people.
Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army.
Light is just the visible portion of the EM spectrum, or which heat is a part. A lasgun heats a target through high irradiance.
A plasma weapon, as described in 40k, would also effect the target through emitting MORE heat over a shorter distance.
Now I'll take a deep breath, and try to explain to you that both would effect it in exactly the same way, and that it doesn't matter if it's a laser, hot plasma, gas, or even magma, as all of them are damaging the target through direct application of enough heat.
However, I have the feeling that pointing out that there's a hole in your reasoning big enough to park a landraider Crusader in would simply have you jerking off to the idea of a landraider crusader.
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iproxtaco wrote:So how exactly do the Tyranids obtain the bio-mass to effectively protect every single organism with Terminator or greater armour and protect themselves against lasguns? Using the anti-pulse adaptation that didn't work with lasguns? Or just adapt again? Gorgon is GONE. There are thousands of fleets, it's the only one to adapt to pulse-rifles, didn't do it for kinetic rounds. Why haven't the others yet? Despite being able to adapt to any other situation? Firstly, because doing so when attacking the Imperium would be inefficient, and secondly, because there is no need to.
So, wait, adapting to the only weapons separating you from the largest chunk of digestible biomassi in the galaxy would not be worth the payoff? Either the hivemind practices Reaganomics or you might want to re think this.
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Sir Pseudonymous wrote:
Perhaps it can dissipate gentle puffs of unusually warm air better than it can withstand real weapons?
Yes, because it's so much harder to withstand a flashlights beams then it is to withstand being hit with a chunk of a star. I'm an IG fan, and I think you need to put down the obscura pipe.
What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
iproxtaco wrote:Explain how the Tyranids would somehow manage to create protection on their base Termagaunts that is greater than Power-armour. They do not have the resources to create trillions of organisms like that, else they would have done it already.
And it's never described as insulating against heat, so you're all wrong. Plasma is different to lasers. One is gas, the other is light. One is heated gas, the other is heated light. This modification the Tyranids had was clearly effective against Gas. The properties of the plasma obviously had a weakness which the Tyranids exploited. You'd think that if the same were true of Bolters and lasguns, at least a few of the splinter fleets that the Imperium have to deal with would adapt in some way. Obviously not.
I won't bother going over the difference between a kinetic bolter round and an energy based Pule round. Clearly the logic is lost on some people.
Great use of a combination of fluff and in-game rules to make sure you have the best argument by the way. If I were to do that, my Grey Knights would obliterate nearly everything, but I don't have an inflated opinion of my fictional army.
Um. I don't think that makes sense. Both plasma and lasers do damage by heat. It's not like the heat generated from hot gas is all that different from the heat from a laser. How would you make an armor that blocks plasma, but not lasers? The nest I can think of is some kind of gel based body that allows plasma to fly through it well blocking lasers... and that just raises more problems then answers, so ya.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Except that makes no sense, because a lasgun damages a target by a laser burning through it. A pulse rifle deals damage by converting a small amount of matter to plasma which hits the target, burning through it.
So, how does a modification that insulates from the much more powerful thermal effect of a pulse rifle not totally ignore a lasgun's pitiful output?
Took the words right out of my mouth. If it's some kind of coating that dissipates thermal energy; it's going to stop as lasgun as well as a pulse rifle. Flamers too, probably. The IG wouldn't be able to stop them, and the SM don't have the numbers for it.
The thing is it never really says what exactly the Cadians had that the Tyranids "couldn't adapt to".
Maybe it was a difference in the scale of the heat or frequency of the wavelengths utilized by the pulse rifles v lasguns, or maybe it was the inevitable swathes of heavy bolters, autocannons, mortars, and missile launchers that they likely had as well.
iproxtaco wrote:The rail-rifles are still huge, complicated, unwieldy with a low rate of fire
Huge?... They're the same size as pulse rifles! Something like holding a 2x4 piece of lumber... And probably not much heavier. Tau don't do 'unwieldy'. Low rate of fire? Yes. Rail Rifles are used much like sniper rifles... Hence the 'causes pinning'. The low rate of fire is probably the only thing that makes them a specialist weapon, and unfit for standard issue. They're heavy weapons for the same reason sniper rifles are heavy weapons. Not because they're actually heavy.
give me the source which states that they have been adapted to pulse-rifle ease of use.
Where's your source that says 'rail-rifles are huge, complicated, and unwieldy.'
And I believe that quote was given, pg 29 of the Tau codex, remember? They were brought into use by front line troops (meaning vanguard/scout units e.g. Pathfinders) after extensive field testing.
iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.
It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.
You're missing the key part of the rail rifle, actually.
What makes them "complicated and unwieldy" is the fact that they require target lock mechanisms that aren't on the standard Fire Warrior gear, but are with the Pathfinder stuff.
Where does it get the bio-mass in the first place to start this adaptive process? It needs A LOT to equip billions with terminator armour to take on Astartes, more to protect against the lasgun. The fleet only learns from experience.
Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe it was a difference in the scale of the heat or frequency of the wavelengths utilized by the pulse rifles v lasguns, or maybe it was the inevitable swathes of heavy bolters, autocannons, mortars, and missile launchers that they likely had as well.
Actually, it's quite obvious what the Cadians had: plot armor.
That aside: the DKoK ran into a similar problem with Necrons and lasguns doing nothing. And, despite suicide squads throwing themselves at the necrons while their comrades meltagunned them to death while they grappled thier foes, in the end the DKoK lost and was forced to withdraw from the planet.
iproxtaco wrote:The rail-rifles are still huge, complicated, unwieldy with a low rate of fire
Huge?... They're the same size as pulse rifles! Something like holding a 2x4 piece of lumber... And probably not much heavier. Tau don't do 'unwieldy'. Low rate of fire? Yes. Rail Rifles are used much like sniper rifles... Hence the 'causes pinning'. The low rate of fire is probably the only thing that makes them a specialist weapon, and unfit for standard issue. They're heavy weapons for the same reason sniper rifles are heavy weapons. Not because they're actually heavy.
give me the source which states that they have been adapted to pulse-rifle ease of use.
Where's your source that says 'rail-rifles are huge, complicated, and unwieldy.'
And I believe that quote was given, pg 29 of the Tau codex, remember? They were brought into use by front line troops (meaning vanguard/scout units e.g. Pathfinders) after extensive field testing.
The models. The fact that it's larger, thus more complicated, and the fact that it's a rail-rifle, involving complicated technology. Unwieldy because they're big. Specialists Weapon with a low rate of fire used by scout roles, hence low ammo.
All of the above makes them unsuitable for general infantry.
And that's been stated before. Still not addressing the point though. They still aren't used or being tested as a replacement or counterpart for the Pulse Rifle, which was the original point.
iproxtaco wrote:Where does it get the bio-mass in the first place to start this adaptive process? It needs A LOT to equip billions with terminator armour to take on Astartes, more to protect against the lasgun. The fleet only learns from experience.
Which would be the biomass the hive fleet carries with it from world to world. Given the difference in tonnage you're looking at.... well, you're looking at a single undernourished drone ship in exchange for an unstoppable tide of bioconstructs overrunning entire planets.
I call that a short term problem/long term solution.
iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.
It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.
Why? Different properties, which the adaptation obviously exploited. Not that difficult to understand. It says nothing about dissipating heat. It protects against pulse-rifle hits, not against lasgun hits, therefore, NOT HEAT.
Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe it was a difference in the scale of the heat or frequency of the wavelengths utilized by the pulse rifles v lasguns, or maybe it was the inevitable swathes of heavy bolters, autocannons, mortars, and missile launchers that they likely had as well.
Actually, it's quite obvious what the Cadians had: plot armor.
That aside: the DKoK ran into a similar problem with Necrons and lasguns doing nothing. And, despite suicide squads throwing themselves at the necrons while their comrades meltagunned them to death while they grappled thier foes, in the end the DKoK lost and was forced to withdraw from the planet.
You're misquoting Dead Men Walking.
The lasguns weren't "doing nothing".
But it was taking alot to put them down. Their hellguns and meltaguns were what was effectively winning the day, so in typical Krieg fashion...the lasgunners kept fire going and did everything they could to ensure that the Grenadiers armed with both were able to stay in the fight.
It should be telling that one of the Krieg training sergeants assigned to the PDF told them that "if they knew they were about to die, to throw their lasgun clear so that the Quartermasters could collect it for another soldier to use".
iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.
It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.
Why? Different properties, which the adaptation obviously exploited. Not that difficult to understand. It says nothing about dissipating heat. It protects against pulse-rifle hits, not against lasgun hits, therefore, NOT HEAT.
Pulse rifles do their damage through heat.
If it doesn't protect against heat, then they're not protected.
iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
Because Gorgon adapted to Pulse Rifles and Ion Weapons when it encountered them, you believe they wouldn't adapt to lasguns and bolters upon encountering them?
iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine. Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.
It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.
Why? Different properties, which the adaptation obviously exploited. Not that difficult to understand. It says nothing about dissipating heat. It protects against pulse-rifle hits, not against lasgun hits, therefore, NOT HEAT.
Pulse rifles do their damage through heat.
If it doesn't protect against heat, then they're not protected.
Therefore, they're protected from heat.
Yes, but the properties of plasma are different from that of light. They both have heat as the method they damage the target, but the Gorgon adaptation clearly took advantage of the properties of plasma to protect it's warriors. The lasguns of the Cadians worked, so the adaptation worked on a property which plasma has but light does not. Therefore ITS NOT HEAT that the adaptation dissipates.
iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.
It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.
Why? Different properties, which the adaptation obviously exploited. Not that difficult to understand. It says nothing about dissipating heat. It protects against pulse-rifle hits, not against lasgun hits, therefore, NOT HEAT.
Pulse rifles do their damage through heat.
If it doesn't protect against heat, then they're not protected.
Therefore, they're protected from heat.
Yes, but the properties of plasma are different from that of light. They both have heat as the method they damage the target, but the Gorgon adaptation clearly took advantage of the properties of plasma to protect it's warriors. The lasguns of the Cadians worked, so the adaptation worked on a property which plasma has but light does not.
Therefore ITS NOT HEAT that the adaptation dissipates.
There is no way to dissipate the plasma without dissipating the heat. The heat has to go somewhere; and unless every Gorgan Tyranid was warping the plasma elsewhere, they were affected by the full shot's worth of heat. They had to have a higher than normal function to dissipate the heat, or they would be damaged.
iproxtaco wrote:What? That this adaptation wasn't actually about dissipating heat? That's a hole in your reasoning, not mine.
Regardless of whether Plasma is a gas, solid or a form of matter similar to gas ( which I admit is a big mistake on my part), it still has properties which Gorgon exploited, but which had no effect on the lasgun.
Because if it doesn't dissipate heat, then it has no way to stop a plasma round. Anything that would shield the target from a plasma weapon would also shield it from a lasgun.
It's like saying it's shielded against hellguns but not lasguns.
Why? Different properties, which the adaptation obviously exploited. Not that difficult to understand. It says nothing about dissipating heat. It protects against pulse-rifle hits, not against lasgun hits, therefore, NOT HEAT.
You have got to be trolling at this point. There is no way anyone is this dense.
I'll try one last time:
As far as the target is concerned, there's no difference to exploit, since the target doesn't magically know if the heat it's being bombarded with comes from a plasma gun, a melta, a lascannon, the humble lasgun, OR AN EXPLODING fething STAR!
ON IMPACT THEY'RE BOTH HEAT. BOTH work by irradiating the target with large amounts of infer red energy (among others). It's actually be EASIER to adapt to the lasgun, which only releases energy in a small portion of the spectrum, where as the chunk of plasma is giving it off across the board. It's like saying it's immune to armor piercing battleship rounds, but a jacketed steel core should do the trick.
Kanluwen wrote:
The lasguns weren't "doing nothing".
But it was taking alot to put them down. Their hellguns and meltaguns were what was effectively winning the day, so in typical Krieg fashion...the lasgunners kept fire going and did everything they could to ensure that the Grenadiers armed with both were able to stay in the fight.
I might point out that even in the case that they were able to do some small damage against Necrons, they lost, and so, in this case, against a foe vastly more numerous, who are totally immune, would they not, logically, lose that much faster?
Been over this a few times. Whereas lasguns and pulse-rifles use methods which could be countered through various means, for example the Gorgon adaptation rendered pulse-rifles useless by exploiting a property of the plasma which the lasgun did not contain. A bolter round relies on sheer kinetic force to penetrate the target, and the relies on the kinetic force from the explosion to kill the target. The only way to stop it from penetrating is to develop thick or very strong armour on the outside to absorb or dissipate the massive impact. Whereas the Gorgon pulse-rifle adaptation was cheap and relatively simple, very advanced, thick or tough armour would be inefficient and expensive on behalf of the fleet to invest in to protect against bolter rounds when the current methods of the Tyranids do fine.
Quite clearly, there is something you just can't get. Pulse rifles were ineffective, lasguns were, hence there is something about plasma that can be exploited which renders the shot useless. Since both use heat as a method of damage, and one is effective when the other is not, it is not heat which the coating dissipates, else the lasgun would have been useless as well. Hence there is a property specifically unique to plasma that we don't understand.
Your reasoning is that the Nids wouldn't develope a carapace capable of stopping or at least largely nullifying a bolter because they wouldn't have the biomass.
That means that they could nullify a bolter by having the biomass.
That means they could stop the bolter.
All they have to do is stop the lasgun which they could do. Obtain the biomass, then null the bolter.
It's fortunate that Gorgon wandered into Tau space instead of Imperial, had it gone through a few PDF defended worlds in the Imperium, it may very well have been a much larger threat to the galaxy.
iproxtaco wrote:Been over this a few times. Whereas lasguns and pulse-rifles use methods which could be countered through various means, for example the Gorgon adaptation rendered pulse-rifles useless by exploiting a property of the plasma which the lasgun did not contain. A bolter round relies on sheer kinetic force to penetrate the target, and the relies on the kinetic force from the explosion to kill the target. The only to stop it from penetrating is to develop thick or very strong armour on the outside to absorb or dissipate the massive impact. Whereas the Gorgon pulse-rifle adaptation was cheap and relatively simple, very advanced, thick or tough armour would be inefficient expensive on behalf of the fleet to invest in to protect against bolter rounds when the current methods of the Tyranids do fine.
You keep saying 'well they exploited some difference between the two...'
iproxtaco wrote:Been over this a few times. Whereas lasguns and pulse-rifles use methods which could be countered through various means, for example the Gorgon adaptation rendered pulse-rifles useless by exploiting a property of the plasma which the lasgun did not contain.
Expect that the adaption doesn't have an effect until after the plasma transfers it's heat to the Tyranid.
Your reasoning is that the Nids wouldn't develope a carapace capable of stopping or at least largely nullifying a bolter because they wouldn't have the biomass.
That means that they could nullify a bolter by having the biomass.
That means they could stop the bolter.
All they have to do is stop the lasgun which they could do. Obtain the biomass, then null the bolter.
It's fortunate that Gorgon wandered into Tau space instead of Imperial, had it gone through a few PDF defended worlds in the Imperium, it may very well have been a much larger threat to the galaxy.
Well, we're talking specifically about Gorgon, thus it did not have near enough to adapt every organism against the Astartes. However I agree, if it did, we may well have had a lot more to talk about.
Automatically Appended Next Post: OH, I see! You were talking about this clearly fictional story in the context of real-life physics! That's your mistake. Still stand by my point though.
iproxtaco wrote:Been over this a few times. Whereas lasguns and pulse-rifles use methods which could be countered through various means, for example the Gorgon adaptation rendered pulse-rifles useless by exploiting a property of the plasma which the lasgun did not contain. A bolter round relies on sheer kinetic force to penetrate the target, and the relies on the kinetic force from the explosion to kill the target. The only to stop it from penetrating is to develop thick or very strong armour on the outside to absorb or dissipate the massive impact. Whereas the Gorgon pulse-rifle adaptation was cheap and relatively simple, very advanced, thick or tough armour would be inefficient expensive on behalf of the fleet to invest in to protect against bolter rounds when the current methods of the Tyranids do fine.
You keep saying 'well they exploited some difference between the two...'
THERE'S NO DIFFERENCE TO EXPLOIT.
Maybe it has to do with numbers. Lasguns are deployed in mass, where pulseguns are deployed in teams of 12. Maybe they adapted a reflexive organ that releases a fluid that dissipates with heat. (You know like sweat only a ,lot, better.) The organ can only work so many times before it wares out, so blasting away with lots of mini pin pricks wear it out a lot faster then a few powerful shots.
PS iproxtaco gets no credit for this. He is still wrong.
It's not fully explained. Just that the Tyranids developed this new armour which renders the pulse-rifle shots useless, but has no effect against lasguns.
nomotog wrote:
Maybe it has to do with numbers. Lasguns are deployed in mass, where pulseguns are deployed in teams of 12. Maybe they adapted a reflexive organ that releases a fluid that dissipates with heat. (You know like sweat only a ,lot, better.) The organ can only work so many times before it wares out, so blasting away with lots of mini pin pricks wear it out a lot faster then a few powerful shots.
PS iproxtaco gets no credit for this. He is still wrong.
When was the last time you saw nids deploy in numbers that didn't dwarf even IG? Even against IG an individual nid is probably only going to get shot once.
Perhaps the plasma round is more like that of a shotgun, covering a wider area and thus doing more damage simply through being larger and gaseous, while a lasgun is a pinprick that delivers a slightly smaller, but still massive, amount of energy over a few nanoseconds. The carapace developed to be more resistant to the spread out plasma blob, but a sharper point was able to put it down.
Or there were just more lasguns, so quantity made up the difference. Or all the other, vastly superior, weapons the Guard had did. Could go either way, really.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Perhaps the plasma round is more like that of a shotgun, covering a wider area and thus doing more damage simply through being larger and gaseous, while a lasgun is a pinprick that delivers a slightly smaller, but still massive, amount of energy over a few nanoseconds. The carapace developed to be more resistant to the spread out plasma blob, but a sharper point was able to put it down.
Or there were just more lasguns, so quantity made up the difference. Or all the other, vastly superior, weapons the Guard had did. Could go either way, really.
No, because if it was like a shotgun it wouldn't have any penetration at all. This isn't like napalm, it's more like willy pete.
Also, to a degree real world physics have to exist in 40k or people wouldn't exist there. Without the usual rules for heat and chemical reactions, human beings would fail to function at a cellular level.
Even as really soft Sci-fi on the Fantasy boarder, there still needs to be a certain amount of 'reality' involved or it falls apart.
nomotog wrote:
Maybe it has to do with numbers. Lasguns are deployed in mass, where pulseguns are deployed in teams of 12. Maybe they adapted a reflexive organ that releases a fluid that dissipates with heat. (You know like sweat only a ,lot, better.) The organ can only work so many times before it wares out, so blasting away with lots of mini pin pricks wear it out a lot faster then a few powerful shots.
PS iproxtaco gets no credit for this. He is still wrong.
When was the last time you saw nids deploy in numbers that didn't dwarf even IG? Even against IG an individual nid is probably only going to get shot once.
So it only takes one lasgun hit to take out a Nid? Maybe the fluid just works once.
Oh here is an idea. Maybe it works just as well on lasguns, but the IoM dosen't notice because lasguns almost never work.
Oh, I agree with you completely outside of the 40k fiction. In the story though, the obvious physics/logic doesn't apply in the same way. The plasma clearly is still being dissipated in another way other than heat within the context of the story, and the logic works, but the real-world physics just doesn't fit.
BaronIveagh wrote:Also, to a degree real world physics have to exist in 40k or people wouldn't exist there. Without the usual rules for heat and chemical reactions, human beings would fail to function at a cellular level.
Even as really soft Sci-fi on the Fantasy boarder, there still needs to be a certain amount of 'reality' involved or it falls apart.
This is why we need a Warhammer 40K Fluff book dedicated to Bible duty for facts.
iproxtaco wrote:Oh, I agree with you completely outside of the 40k fiction. In the story though, the obvious physics/logic doesn't apply in the same way. The plasma clearly is still being dissipated in another way other than heat within the context of the story, and the logic works, but the real-world physics just doesn't fit.
The in-world physics doesn't fit either, it's just another case of GW not caring about what they're writing as long as us morons keep buying it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
This is why we need a Warhammer 40K Fluff book dedicated to Bible duty for facts.
I still think it fits IN-GAME. But my interpretation of it makes sense only within the fictional-world. I've explained what I think may times, so won't go again.
This is why we need a Warhammer 40K Fluff book dedicated to Bible duty for facts.
We only need it so people that have hard on's for marine uberness can be held in check.
This thread has completely digressed off topic, return to topic already.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground. With kroot alone, enough can kill a marine, and the ratio of marines to kroot is something like 1 to 100.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground.
Basically, yeah. They just don't have the numbers to take out an entire empire.
Sir Pseudonymous wrote:Perhaps the plasma round is more like that of a shotgun, covering a wider area and thus doing more damage simply through being larger and gaseous, while a lasgun is a pinprick that delivers a slightly smaller, but still massive, amount of energy over a few nanoseconds. The carapace developed to be more resistant to the spread out plasma blob, but a sharper point was able to put it down.
Or there were just more lasguns, so quantity made up the difference. Or all the other, vastly superior, weapons the Guard had did. Could go either way, really.
No, because if it was like a shotgun it wouldn't have any penetration at all. This isn't like napalm, it's more like willy pete.
It's AP5: it could just be a wide enough spread to always hit the weakpoints in the armor or splash onto an unprotected area. Or cling long enough to set flak armor on fire. It's not like Imperial plasma, which can actually pierce heavier armor, after all. If the Tau were expecting it to never fail to penetrate, perhaps they panicked and ran away, while the Guard knew that it took more than one shot and so kept shooting. Perhaps the Tyranids had already scrapped the upgraded armor when the Tau stopped using pulse weapons, and being a mindless beast didn't think to redeploy it.* Perhaps the lasguns were accurate enough to give them laser eye surgery, and they were so grateful at the complimentary medical service they just up and left, not wanting to be rude to their impromptu surgeons.
*This actually makes the most sense, unless it was explicitly contradicted in the text; everything has a cost, and if it was no longer working against the weapons the Tau deployed it may have been deemed outdated, and so scrapped in the search for something that could resist the new weapons. As the Imperium deploys a far wider range of weapons, with special weapons in every squad, it may not be feasible to produce something able to resist everything.
