If the Inquisition,Ultramarines and friends stopped being such a bunch of insufferable nerds and said "Oye Helbrecht, form the largest crusade the Imperium has seen in ten thousand years and go into the Eastern Fringe and "GET S*** DONE"...how long would it take them to completely wipe out the garbage that is the Tau Empire?

-They're already under attack by Orks and Tyranids.
-Massive BT Fleet based on fighting mobile warfare.
-6,000ish existing battle-brothers plus countless Neophyte meatshields.

My guess is that "Mission Accomplished" would be on the deck of the Eternal Crusader in a year or two.

Less than a year. That's a whole six chapters worth of marines that are specialized in conquering large swathes of space, the Tau would have no chance.

Oh I forgot the Tau's marvelous Doctrine. They retreat and over-extend our resources. Fat lot of good that'll do against the Black Templars.

The BT are spread across the Imperium so it would take a while for them to get together.
It's also more than likely they would be joined by elements of other chapters.
So not that long...
Sicarius led a chapter sized force and could have gone further into Tau space but they were recalled.

purplefood wrote:The BT are spread across the Imperium so it would take a while for them to get together.
It's also more than likely they would be joined by elements of other chapters.
So not that long...
Sicarius led a chapter sized force and could have gone further into Tau space but they were recalled.

Of course, according to other version of the events, Tau merely pulled back after overextending their logistics and fortified their newly acquired worlds...

Any way, if the Templars actually gathered to unified force (highly unlikely, given how busy they are with heretics and Daemons etc), lots of other Imperial authorities would be extremely worried and would probably step in in some forceful fashion.

I think the fluff has it that there is simply too much going on atm and the Tau aren't much of a threat... yet. I think they took over a whole, what, 8 worlds from the Imperium!? They're a pain in the Ultramar, but with the Tyranids and other things happening elsewhere... well.

Backfire wrote:

Of course, according to other version of the events, Tau merely pulled back after overextending their logistics and fortified their newly acquired worlds...

Nothing plays more to the Guards tune than razing fortresses....
Tau still belief the IoM isn't that big, seen in "savage scars".
Overextending the logistics of a fleet based crusading force will not work. The BT fleet is selfsustaining.
Last time BT cared for Tau, Nimbosa was cleansed.

Backfire wrote:
Any way, if the Templars actually gathered to unified force (highly unlikely, given how busy they are with heretics and Daemons etc), lots of other Imperial authorities would be extremely worried and would probably step in in some forceful fashion.

Helbrecht seems busy with nids, as per codex Tyranids.

The only intercepting authority could be inquisiton ( ordo xenos, Kryptman ), as they kept the Tau as tools against the nids.
But if the tooll is malfunctioning.....

Well, the Tau remind me of Russians in the way that they force the enemy to over extend themselves just as the Russians did with Napoleon, Hitler, and i think there was someone in between those two.

But if the BT had Imperial Colonists and a few dozen Guard Regiments, well, Kalamari sounds delicious.

Movac wrote:If the Inquisition,Ultramarines and friends stopped being such a bunch of insufferable nerds and said "Oye Helbrecht, form the largest crusade the Imperium has seen in ten thousand years and go into the Eastern Fringe and "GET S*** DONE"...how long would it take them to completely wipe out the garbage that is the Tau Empire?

-They're already under attack by Orks and Tyranids.
-Massive BT Fleet based on fighting mobile warfare.
-6,000ish existing battle-brothers plus countless Neophyte meatshields.

My guess is that "Mission Accomplished" would be on the deck of the Eternal Crusader in a year or two.

Wouldn't be about two years just travel time. I was looking at the map the other day and the tau are really out there. You also have to start on the border worlds make sure the humans there aren't trading or talking with the tau. Then as you push the tau back, they no longer have to fight the tyranids or orks at their border you are fighting them. Then their is always the chance that some force will get mired down in a guerrilla warfare delaying the battle even more.

A full on invasion is a little harder then the IoM thinks. If I was to do it, I would use nothing but fleet battles. Blockade the tau worlds, destroy their trade routs and cut off commutation, make short raids to kill eternals, and then wait. With out constant contact with each other, the tau would fall apart.

OR, the BT could steam-roller over the Tau, it's a lot easier than you seem to think. The IoM launches crusades and invasions all the time, the Tau would be no different.

There would be freak warp storms that prevent the crusade from destroying the Tau, and fifteen years later, the Tau will have rebuilt the Webway.

Or something. In all seriousness, they'd go extinct for the Greater Good.

Quick question, how large was the Damocles Gulf Crusade, in terms of manpower?

Dozens of Battle-Barges with more than 6000 marines? Won't even have to bother landing, just burn everything from orbit.

nomotog wrote:

Movac wrote:If the Inquisition,Ultramarines and friends stopped being such a bunch of insufferable nerds and said "Oye Helbrecht, form the largest crusade the Imperium has seen in ten thousand years and go into the Eastern Fringe and "GET S*** DONE"...how long would it take them to completely wipe out the garbage that is the Tau Empire?

-They're already under attack by Orks and Tyranids.
-Massive BT Fleet based on fighting mobile warfare.
-6,000ish existing battle-brothers plus countless Neophyte meatshields.

My guess is that "Mission Accomplished" would be on the deck of the Eternal Crusader in a year or two.

Wouldn't be about two years just travel time. I was looking at the map the other day and the tau are really out there. You also have to start on the border worlds make sure the humans there aren't trading or talking with the tau. Then as you push the tau back, they no longer have to fight the tyranids or orks at their border you are fighting them. Then their is always the chance that some force will get mired down in a guerrilla warfare delaying the battle even more.

A full on invasion is a little harder then the IoM thinks. If I was to do it, I would use nothing but fleet battles. Blockade the tau worlds, destroy their trade routs and cut off commutation, make short raids to kill eternals, and then wait. With out constant contact with each other, the tau would fall apart.

http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html - This map?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html - This map?

The one from the rule book, but thanks for showing me this it is getting a book mark.

Nerivant wrote:There would be freak warp storms that prevent the crusade from destroying the Tau, and fifteen years later, the Tau will have rebuilt the Webway.

Or something. In all seriousness, they'd go extinct for the Greater Good.

Quick question, how large was the Damocles Gulf Crusade, in terms of manpower?

Dont have exact numbers, but I was about 500 or so Space Marines, 2-3 Guard Regiments and 3 scout Titans. the exact quotes were in another thread but I can't find them.

iproxtaco wrote:

Dont have exact numbers, but I was about 500 or so Space Marines, 2-3 Guard Regiments and 3 scout Titans. the exact quotes were in another thread but I can't find them.

That's... not much.

Were fought by just Dal'yth's forces, or did they receive reinforcements from another sept?

If the templars put their mind and full resources to it, they could pretty much beat anyone's face bar a full hive fleet or ork WAAGH without much support

Nerivant wrote:
Quick question, how large was the Damocles Gulf Crusade, in terms of manpower?

According to 3rd Ed Tau codex, about 5 companies of Marines from various Chapters, 19 regiments from IG, some Titans.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:OR, the BT could steam-roller over the Tau, it's a lot easier than you seem to think. The IoM launches crusades and invasions all the time, the Tau would be no different.

Sure, but they don't all succeed...

I'm sure the other systems from which all those Black Templars would be recalled can hang in there just fine in the meantime. The other kindly SM chapters aren't really doing anything important and can pick up the slack!

"Sure guys, you've been holding back Waagh! Cornholla for the last 4 years, but go ahead to glass some lizard-goat's world from orbit, we'll be dandy! It's not like our hives and forges are important to the Imperium or anything. I think it's an open secret you guys just hung around for our fine beaches and comely wenches."

Also, gathering 6k space marines worth of crusading fleets is likely going to take a lot of time *time during which they'd not be defending imperial terroitory NOW attacking Tau, being effectively useless), given how far and wide they can be spread and the weird nature of Warp travel. Sure, they could all just head to Tau space...and arrive piecemeal and less than effective.

Not saying it wouldn't work...eventually. But I suggest reading the Taros Campaign in the IA books to see how wars of conquest can stall (sure, it's not GW canon-fluff, but it's remarkably well-written).

I think its common sense, that Imperium could destroy the Tau-Starempire whenever it would want. It just sees no priority in that. Even more than the Tau are now under Tyranid pressure, there would be not much gained to conquer these worlds just to defend it from Tyranids right after that.

Space marines in the IoM are basically equivalent for handful of cop patrols attempting to patrol entire CONUS. Sure, they could give up their chase for bank robbers and wanted fugitives and instead go and arrest some suspected petty thief in Arkansas, but it would seem like rather crappy prioritizing.

1hadhq wrote:

Of course, according to other version of the events, Tau merely pulled back after overextending their logistics and fortified their newly acquired worlds...

Nothing plays more to the Guards tune than razing fortresses....
Tau still belief the IoM isn't that big, seen in "savage scars".
Overextending the logistics of a fleet based crusading force will not work. The BT fleet is selfsustaining.
Last time BT cared for Tau, Nimbosa was cleansed.

How bad actually is Savage Scars,after all Andy Hoare(he's not a bad writer,but seriously he shouldn't write about Tau,much less about space combat(it contradicts every source in 40k) the Tau fanboi has written it?

I always wonder how bad would the Tau get stomped if the crusade the size of Sabbat's World crusade was led against them?

nomotog wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html - This map?

The one from the rule book, but thanks for showing me this it is getting a book mark.

Your welcome . Did you notice on the right side of the map- the tiny Tau empire and how it compares in size to the Imperium?

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Dont have exact numbers, but I was about 500 or so Space Marines, 2-3 Guard Regiments and 3 scout Titans. the exact quotes were in another thread but I can't find them.

That's... not much.

Were fought by just Dal'yth's forces, or did they receive reinforcements from another sept?

I recall a quote from this other thread that said the Crusade was slowed at Dal'yth by the 'full might of the Tau military'.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html - This map?

The one from the rule book, but thanks for showing me this it is getting a book mark.

Your welcome . Did you notice on the right side of the map- the tiny Tau empire and how it compares in size to the Imperium?

It was funny. I was looking where the tau was on the book's map and I was thinking wow there are a lot of imperial worlds in tau space. Then I noticed that the empire was that little box next to where I thought it was. The hand wave given in the book, is that is is a very dense cluster. Still they are tiny.

iproxtaco wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Dont have exact numbers, but I was about 500 or so Space Marines, 2-3 Guard Regiments and 3 scout Titans. the exact quotes were in another thread but I can't find them.

That's... not much.

Were fought by just Dal'yth's forces, or did they receive reinforcements from another sept?

I recall a quote from this other thread that said the Crusade was slowed at Dal'yth by the 'full might of the Tau military'.

That's the vaguest thing I've heard in a long, long time.

My final estimate for this thread; a while.

Its vague I agree but what's your point?

Define a while. When I say "I'll do it in a while" I mean an hour.

iproxtaco wrote:Its vague I agree but what's your point?

Define a while. When I say "I'll do it in a while" I mean an hour.

I can't define "a while" until I know the definition of "full might."

If it meant "everything the Tau can muster, from every sept," then that crusade will wipe out the Tau in twenty minutes and be back in time for tea.

If it meant "everything the sept had at its disposal," then it could take a long, long time.

Tau have been difficult to conquer so far because of there density. Each world needs to be self sustaining, meaning every planet has its own complete army, making the job of pushing through the Tau empire slow, and taxing on resources.

The full might of the black templars could take just about anything out, so the point is a little redundant.

Mr Nobody wrote:Tau have been difficult to conquer so far because of there density. Each world needs to be self sustaining, meaning every planet has its own complete army, making the job of pushing through the Tau empire slow, and taxing on resources.

The full might of the black templars could take just about anything out, so the point is a little redundant.

They have been difficult because in the context the Imperium doesn't care about them,they're a small fish on the galactic scale.Damocles Crusade was also a sector level affair,not the indicator of the full might of the Imperium.

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Its vague I agree but what's your point?

Define a while. When I say "I'll do it in a while" I mean an hour.

I can't define "a while" until I know the definition of "full might."

If it meant "everything the Tau can muster, from every sept," then that crusade will wipe out the Tau in twenty minutes and be back in time for tea.

If it meant "everything the sept had at its disposal," then it could take a long, long time.

I really do need to find this thread as there was a similar debate. I'd take 'full might' as everything the Tau could muster but that's just an interpretation. As weak as the Tau may be compared to the Imperium, such a small Crusade would likely have been badly beaten if it was literally every soldier, vehicle, navy ship and auxiliary they had. If it took that much to halt the Crusade then the Tau are even weaker than I thought.

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tau have been difficult to conquer so far because of there density. Each world needs to be self sustaining, meaning every planet has its own complete army, making the job of pushing through the Tau empire slow, and taxing on resources.

The full might of the black templars could take just about anything out, so the point is a little redundant.

They have been difficult because in the context the Imperium doesn't care about them,they're a small fish on the galactic scale.Damocles Crusade was also a sector level affair,not the indicator of the full might of the Imperium.

That's the same reason orks haven't destroyed the imperium, not enough resources applied. An enemy is measured by how many resources it takes to beat them. If you need to use all the resources of the black templar to deafeat the Tau, then they are incredibly powerful.

the only reason the Tau are still alive is because Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken were approaching and the Imperium needed to deal with the more present threat.


the Damocles Gulf Crusade would have eventually destroyed the Tau through attrition. the Tau don't have the population to fight a war of attrition with the IoM, indeed the concept is unknown to them.


the instant the Tau present a bigger threat then any other race in the sector, they will be destroyed. assuming the Nids don't eat them first.

But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Mr Nobody wrote:

IvanTih wrote:

Mr Nobody wrote:Tau have been difficult to conquer so far because of there density. Each world needs to be self sustaining, meaning every planet has its own complete army, making the job of pushing through the Tau empire slow, and taxing on resources.

The full might of the black templars could take just about anything out, so the point is a little redundant.

They have been difficult because in the context the Imperium doesn't care about them,they're a small fish on the galactic scale.Damocles Crusade was also a sector level affair,not the indicator of the full might of the Imperium.

That's the same reason orks haven't destroyed the imperium, not enough resources applied. An enemy is measured by how many resources it takes to beat them. If you need to use all the resources of the black templar to deafeat the Tau, then they are incredibly powerful.

The difference here's that the Imperium applied the fraction of it's might(a really tiny one,for example the number of the ships).That's why I call Damocles crusade a small sector level affair and which was capable of causing a great deal of trouble to the Tau.Also take the fact that even the mightiest Tau ships(Custodiean-class) are roughly comparable with a Lunar-class cruiser(BFG stats which unlike tabletop stats are usable,I'll find the quote which says that or something else).

yeah, that "Crusade" involved only 2 IG regiments and representitives of 5 marine chapters. barely 5 companies.

there were also only 5 navy ships plus the Marine ships(which probably outnumbered the Navy in hull count)


this pitiful force got all the way to a Tau Sept world and only then ground to a halt. 1/3 of the way to T'au itself.

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

The IoM faced those Tau in Courage and Honor and ROFLstomped through them.Never mind the superior ships of the Imperial Navy.

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

The Imperium will have learnt about the Tau as well. I agree that the Imperium tactical advancement has stagnated, individual Commanders are still able to improvise and think tactically.

The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out. They can't do that on a large scale if the Imperium ever decides to deploy a full Titan Legion.

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, that "Crusade" involved only 2 IG regiments and representitives of 5 marine chapters. barely 5 companies.

there were also only 5 navy ships plus the Marine ships(which probably outnumbered the Navy in hull count)

There were NINETEEN Guards regiments, not 2. Even Taros force numbered ten regiments, plus small battlegroup of four Warhound titans. The fleet was also fairly sizable, dozen capital ships plus escorts and transports.

The fleet situation was what largely prompted the retreat - Imperial fleet was in very poor shape after the battles, and any further Air Caste attempt to contest the system would have forced a retreat. Tau have built two generations of new ships since that...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:
The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out.

Not really, it was just a modification of their standard fighter-bomber. The Mantas can face off Titans, but are usually too precious or used in transporting role to be risked in slugout battles.

Backfire wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:yeah, that "Crusade" involved only 2 IG regiments and representitives of 5 marine chapters. barely 5 companies.

there were also only 5 navy ships plus the Marine ships(which probably outnumbered the Navy in hull count)

There were NINETEEN Guards regiments, not 2. Even Taros force numbered ten regiments, plus small battlegroup of four Warhound titans. The fleet was also fairly sizable, dozen capital ships plus escorts and transports.

The fleet situation was what largely prompted the retreat - Imperial fleet was in very poor shape after the battles, and any further Air Caste attempt to contest the system would have forced a retreat. Tau have built two generations of new ships since that...

Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

IvanTih wrote:
Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

Which are completely irrelevant because of the fact that they're all busy defending the Imperium.

The Imperium could flatten the Tau in the work of an afternoon. They're just not worth pulling ships and men off the line for.

iproxtaco wrote:

nomotog wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:But they wouldn't need the whole Black Templars to beat them. A Crusade that's slightly bigger than the Damocles Gulf Crusade, with better support and direction would beat the Tau. This is a hypothetical thread about how long it would take the Black Templars to destroy the Tau, whether they can or not is a certainty, they can.

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

The Imperium will have learnt about the Tau as well. I agree that the Imperium tactical advancement has stagnated, individual Commanders are still able to improvise and think tactically.

The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out. They can't do that on a large scale if the Imperium ever decides to deploy a full Titan Legion.

Hopefully the Imperium learned they can't half bottom the job of taking out the tau. That might be why they are not doing a second crusade. Maybe they are waiting for the proper resources?

Ya it was the smallest, weakest titan they have. The point was that the tau where getting their tiny blue bottoms kicked by it, but now they have a new class of fighter designed to take them out. Their ships are another example. They started off awful, but now they have ships that can actually fight and they know how to use them too. Sowdowstron (spelling might be off) even carrys a new kind of command armor that she is testing. The tau are not the same tau from the last crusade.

Nerivant wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

Which are completely irrelevant because of the fact that they're all busy defending the Imperium.

Which is also completely irrelevant of the fact that the Tau will get crushed if they get too cocky.
EDITidn't see your edit.Sorry!

IvanTih wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

IvanTih wrote:
Which still suck in the battle with the Imperial ships,nevermind the canon fact that the Imperium has hundreds of thousand to millions of warships and that's not even including the transports.

Which are completely irrelevant because of the fact that they're all busy defending the Imperium.

Which is also completely irrelevant of the fact that the Tau will get crushed if they get too cocky.

If it's feasible for the Imperium at that point and time, yes.

The case of the Titan killer was debated in this other thread too, and I can remember the details quite well. It was a single Warhound Scout Titan, the smallest and least powerful Titan model and the Tau had to re-direct a ridiculous amount of resources to take it out.

Not really, it was just a modification of their standard fighter-bomber. The Mantas can face off Titans, but are usually too precious or used in transporting role to be risked in slugout battles.

They modified one ship yes, but to support that ship they had to redirect a ridiculous amount of resources. In the end the took out one very small and relatively weak Titan. Can they do this against an Imperator? No, they can't.

I don't think the Imperium (nor the BT's themselves for that matter) would want to pull all of their troops from all over the galaxy for a crusade against the Tau. Wouldn't that be like trying to plug 11 holes in the dyke with two hands?

Uhlan wrote:I don't think the Imperium (nor the BT's themselves for that matter) would want to pull all of their troops from all over the galaxy for a crusade against the Tau. Wouldn't that be like trying to plug 11 holes in the dyke with two hands?

More like taking a hand and covering a crack that might start leaking sometime in the future.

If the templars are going to launch a crusade against the tau they should do if before the tau get a new dex, they could become the strongest army in game or their fluff could have them ally with the nids or something

Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

We're not haters we just use canon evidence.

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

It surely can't bother you that much.

Care to name these 4 hate threads?

IvanTih wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

We're not haters we just use canon evidence.

Hell, I play Tau, and I'm objective enough to know they're little more than a smear on the galactic map.

Kroothawk wrote:Hmmm, the fourth Tau bashing thread currently active. Time for Mat Ward to publish something new, so the haters forget their hate obect #1 for some weeks.

How long would it take? About double as long as for Chaos to exploit that weakness and crush them IoM.
BTW Railguns like close combat oriented troops

As a Tau player just more ammunition for a new codex. There is a method to our 'thready' madness.

nomotog wrote:

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

There as mistake about the IoM.
The tacticians of the IoM gathered enough data to know what the Tau are able to.
Titans, Flyers and Space marine armor collects a lot of battlefield data.
The tacticians are rarely shown in background, but they exist. Don't underestimate them.
Their department may hold a seat in a war council.

IvanTih wrote:
How bad actually is Savage Scars,after all Andy Hoare(he's not a bad writer,but seriously he shouldn't write about Tau,much less about space combat(it contradicts every source in 40k) the Tau fanboi has written it?

Its fine. Was acceptable in casualties per side and if thats all a fanboi can do, fear the day a reliable author writes these stories.

Will add the size of the crusade and the end of it here. Just have to fetch the book to quote correctly.

Just one thing to be cleared right off: it was Lord Inquisitor Kryptman who saved the Tau and redirected the crusade.

I think some of you are underestimating the Tau. The Tau are not some backwater imperial colony without even a space ship. They have a whole caste dedicated to air and space combat (or sometimes just travel). Another whole caste dedicated to ground combat. There are no 'pesants' in the tau society (or everyone is depending on how you look at it). If you send enough troops to totally wipe out a 'fortress' (use the term as loosely as possible) the tau have no issues with having the earth caste rig the entire city and abandon it and build a new one somewere else. Where i'm not going to say the two combat castes are half the popluation...they are a good chunk of it (i suspect the earth caste would be the largest).

That all being said 6 chapters with everything they can bring...i'd give it a year from when the fighting started to when the Tau are wiped out. Although it would have to be a complete relocation fleet as by the time those 6 chapters finished with the tau they would have no homes left. Between the orks, nids and forces of chaos there'd be nothing left of their homes (if their planets weren't lost to the warp).

iproxtaco wrote:Less than a year. That's a whole six chapters worth of marines that are specialized in conquering large swathes of space, the Tau would have no chance.

Oh I forgot the Tau's marvelous Doctrine. They retreat and over-extend our resources. Fat lot of good that'll do against the Black Templars.

6000 marines are going to hands down auto-win against a highly militarized, technologically advanced, and expansionistic empire of billions with significantly more naval assets than those Space Marines can muster? Really ?

Lets be honest, even if every Battle Brothers slays a hundred Tau (already far outside of what typical SM kill ratios are given codex estimates of 1 SM for every 10-12 normal human troops, much less far better equipped Fire Warriors), they'd kill 6 Million Fire Warriors. For an empire spanning thirty something worlds and billions of inhabitants, 6 million casualties, while painful, isn't exactly going to be a death blow by any means. Going for the more conventions 10-12 per SM, then they'd kill 70,000something Fire Warriors? Negligible casualties.

Yes they will hands down win. That is all.

iproxtaco wrote:
They modified one ship yes, but to support that ship they had to redirect a ridiculous amount of resources. In the end the took out one very small and relatively weak Titan. Can they do this against an Imperator? No, they can't.

What "ridiculous amount of resources"? It was a strike by one fighter-bomber. Tiger Shark is their standard attack craft, which they probably have thousands in service. Surely they can afford to modify a few for anti-Titan work.

Besides, Imperial forces had Titans in Damocles Crusade too (probably more & bigger than in Taros) and they hardly roflstomped Tau flat even then.

Can anyone tell me how a bunch of Black Templars with perhaps three to five dozen capital ship equivalents ( let's say roughly 2 battlebarges and 6 strikecruisers per chapter times 4-6 ) of varying sizes is going to conquer a territory the size of an imperial sector? I know, the Spacemarine spank is pretty strong with some people, but i have yet to see any even remotely beliefable reason why such a small number could conquer a planet, or in our case an empire with roughly a hundred populated planets and colonies ( the number comes from Imperial Armour III page 13, therefore the Tau Empire has roughly the size of the Sabbat sector ), without turning it into glass from orbit.

So no, unless the Black Templars receive considerable assistance from the Imperial Guard ( which needs to provide the necessary numbers to actually conquer, instead of disrupt ) as well as the Imperial navy the entire crusade will stall as soon as they hit the first fortified world. The Black Templars fleet is perhaps the strongest component in such a crusade, but even this does not guarantee victory, mainly because the Tau's most recent shipddesigns ( Imperial Armour III ) put them roughly on par with their equivalents from the Imperial Navy.

So, to make it short. While Spacemarines are perfectly capable of suceeding in short battles against overwhelming odds they will suffer badly in wars of attrition, which every fight to actually conquer fortified territory will sooner or later become. I personaly think that to truly crush the nascent Tau Empire a crusade comparable with the Sabbat Crusade would be necessary. Both deal with with a territory of roughly comparable size against an enemy which is determined and technologaly equal, perhaps even superior in some cases ( warpmagic beyond that what the Imperium dares to field, technology beyond that what the Imperium can regularly field ).

IvanTih wrote:We're not haters we just use canon evidence.

... to celebrate another "genocide of the Tau race" fantasy.

KingDeath wrote:Can anyone tell me how a bunch of Black Templars with perhaps three to five dozen capital ship equivalents ( let's say roughly 2 battlebarges and 6 strikecruisers per chapter times 4-6 ) of varying sizes is going to conquer a territory the size of an imperial sector? I know, the Spacemarine spank is pretty strong with some people, but i have yet to see any even remotely beliefable reason why such a small number could conquer a planet, or in our case an empire with roughly a hundred populated planets and colonies ( the number comes from Imperial Armour III page 13, therefore the Tau Empire has roughly the size of the Sabbat sector ), without turning it into glass from orbit.

Exterminatus doesn't require a planet to be 'glassed'. The Imperium are not the Covenant.

Virus weaponry can kill off all the life on a planet and still leave it inhabitable.

So, to make it short. While Spacemarines are perfectly capable of suceeding in short battles against overwhelming odds they will suffer badly in wars of attrition, which every fight to actually conquer fortified territory will sooner or later become. I personaly think that to truly crush the nascent Tau Empire a crusade comparable with the Sabbat Crusade would be necessary. Both deal with with a territory of roughly comparable size against an enemy which is determined and technologaly equal, perhaps even superior in some cases ( warpmagic beyond that what the Imperium dares to field, technology beyond that what the Imperium can regularly field ).

It really won't be in all truths. To 'crush' the Tau Empire without damaging the worlds they inhabit is the issue.

The Sabbat Crusade was executed like it was because it was Imperial territory, with Imperial citizenry, with Imperial religious sites in the mix.

The Tau Empire has none of that. Virus bombing the worlds the Tau inhabit and then terraforming isn't a bad way for it to go.

iproxtaco wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Dont have exact numbers, but I was about 500 or so Space Marines, 2-3 Guard Regiments and 3 scout Titans. the exact quotes were in another thread but I can't find them.

That's... not much.

Were fought by just Dal'yth's forces, or did they receive reinforcements from another sept?

I recall a quote from this other thread that said the Crusade was slowed at Dal'yth by the 'full might of the Tau military'.

It was just the tau forces of Dal'yth, which is a first expansion world. By the wording the imperial forces didn't gain any ground on the planet during the whole crusade.

the crusade ground to a bloody stalemate as the formidable numbers and high technology of the Tau and their Kroot allies thwarted every attempt to capture the system. Many months of terrible fighting ensued with nothing gained on either side.

The lexicanum states that the following were present at dal'yth

Imperial Guard Regiments of the Damocles Crusade

* 17th Brimlock Dragoons Regiment
* 19th Brimlock Dragoons Regiment

Imperial Navy Ships

* Blade of Woe
* Dutchess McIntyre
* Honour of Damlass
* Lord Cedalion
* Niobe (Overlord class Battlecruiser)

Space Marines

* Iron Hands
* White Scars
* Scythes of the Emperor
* Ultramarines
* Black Templars

Rogue Traders

* Lucian Gerrit of the Arcadius3.b
o Oceanid (Rogue Trader Vessel)

So all that was basically forced into a stalemate in the battle for one of the Tau First Phase Expansion worlds, of which there are 5 other first phase worlds.

So in order to actually make headway at a reasonable pace, there would need to be twice the presence of the IOM per first phase planet alone, not including the tau homeworld or the 2nd phase and 3rd phase worlds.

That's a lot of resources when the imperium is already stretched thin. Committing to destroying the tau would retroactively cripple the IOM for at least a time, if not more, depending on how much was lost during the focused conquest of the tau.

Also, it is well know that tau spacecraft are, on average, better when dealing with space combat (but of course, broading actions? Screwed) than the IOM vessels.

So, could the IOM wipe the tau out?

Yea, they sure could, but at what cost?

Dal'yth is, IIRC, the least militarized the first founding worlds. Sa'cea or Vior'la would be able to handle a lot worse.

1hadhq wrote:

nomotog wrote:

Don't forget that the tau learned from the Damocles Gulf Crusade. They are not like the IoM who keep as static as they can. During the crusade the tau modernize a fighter/bomber so it can one shot a titan (I an slightly fuzzy on the exact details. I understand it took a lot of ships and planing, but only one actual shot). Their commanders have also gotten more cunning and ruthless. If the IoM sent out another crusade of the same size, it would not do nearly as well.

There as mistake about the IoM.
The tacticians of the IoM gathered enough data to know what the Tau are able to.
Titans, Flyers and Space marine armor collects a lot of battlefield data.
The tacticians are rarely shown in background, but they exist. Don't underestimate them.
Their department may hold a seat in a war council.

You see I did not know this. From the outside, the IoM looks kind of brain dead with the only people who think being the inquisitors. Still, the tau are advancing their tech quite fast. They are like a time bomb. Unless the IoM takes them out quick (Before they get full warp travel) then they won't be able to. Not that the tau will be able to take out the IoM then. More worlds more problems. The tau will get bugled down themselves.

Neither the Tau nor the IoM has time to wage a decisive battle in that sector, too many Nid incursions. Given that Macragge itself was invaded and that the IoM almost lost an 1/8th of their Empire, both factions have more pressing issues.

Although it is hinted that we will see the largest fight between the two in the Iron Hammer Campaign. Perhaps in the next Tau dex if the rumor of Cuddance writing it is true.

That would never happened, because GW would then ban the tau miniatures and their sales would go down. So...no...

But if the crusade would happened....Tau are strong, and they have lot of allies. But in the end this is 6000 SPACE MARINES...Tau couldn't handle less than 1000 Black Templars at Nimbosa, not to mention that 1 Guard Regiment hold them down that entire time...

In the end they would fall...but not without a fight ( Templar losses would be great, maybe even 40% ).

Brother Coa wrote:That would never happened, because GW would then ban the tau miniatures and their sales would go down. So...no...

But if the crusade would happened....Tau are strong, and they have lot of allies. But in the end this is 6000 SPACE MARINES...Tau couldn't handle less than 1000 Black Templars at Nimbosa, not to mention that 1 Guard Regiment hold them down that entire time...

In the end they would fall...but not without a fight ( Templar losses would be great, maybe even 40% ).

Actually, Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet, fortified it to the teeth, repelled the intitial invaders, then finally waged a ground war against Space Marines that resorted to playing an attrition battle, something they seldom do. After slaughtering a company of Space Marines and two regiments he was recalled for brutality and the IoM defeated the Tau.

BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

I personally think the Tau empire, and entire species, would be about on-par with the black templars. As long as the BT don't have support from other assets I.E. titans and guard.

Also, I think the Tau, being dynamic as hell, would probably end up making weapons that are distinctively anti-marine I.E. every suit would have TL plasma, MP, and HWMT.

But then again, Grimaldus alone is as badass as chuck Norris...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Templar wrote:the only reason the Tau are still alive is because Hive Fleet Behemoth and Kraken were approaching and the Imperium needed to deal with the more present threat.


the Damocles Gulf Crusade would have eventually destroyed the Tau through attrition. the Tau don't have the population to fight a war of attrition with the IoM, indeed the concept is unknown to them.


the instant the Tau present a bigger threat then any other race in the sector, they will be destroyed. assuming the Nids don't eat them first.

Actually, the Damocles Gulf crusade expended nearly all of it's resources on Dal'yth prime, just to take a city, without managing to kill any civilians, losing titans, and then was confronted with a fleet several times it's size that could rip it to pieces but then signed an N.A.P. so that they could fight the bugs.

Guys, don't take this the wrong way. But why do you guys hate the Tau so much?

I know you may be thing why I would say such a thing, making me a hypocrite. But the thing is that I don't hate the Tau. I just wanted to open up a discussion on why the people think Tau are good guys. I simply find Tau to be a lesser evil, lesser than Imperium or Eldar but still an evil but not capital EVIL. And to discuss about new evidence for Tau malevolence not to troll Tau players

Though this is mostly because of GW making them mary-sue than anything else.

So why so much hate and why creating threads against the Tau that don't really serve a purpose?

Nerivant wrote:Dal'yth is, IIRC, the least militarized the first founding worlds. Sa'cea or Vior'la would be able to handle a lot worse.

Yeah, If the BT brought no titans, and had no means with which to level cities, the Sa'cea warriors alone would probably wipe out close to 1,000-if not many, many more. Defense in an urban zone with a world mostly devoted to military that specializes in urban combat can only end one way.

I do not hate Tau, I hate when people start talking about Tau like they are all children of Chuck Norris...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Actually, Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet, fortified it to the teeth, repelled the intitial invaders, then finally waged a ground war against Space Marines that resorted to playing an attrition battle, something they seldom do. After slaughtering a company of Space Marines and two regiments he was recalled for brutality and the IoM defeated the Tau.

BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Like this...

would this be a bad time for the Tau players to realize their next codex writer's initials are M.W?

So to add a few things to consider:

the crusade was set up with this in mind:


The size of the sent force was considered enough. Never meant to assail what was there.



Minor. Not standard sized or planned to deal with a empire. Minor.


the retreat of the Tau:


To rely upon tech is a weakness when tech fails.
The tau sent Kroot to stop the spearheads of the crusade from entering the star port, but those were no match for space marines.
Seems the training as a unit disables them to act as individual effectively when cut off.

the deathbringer, instrument of an inquisitor, a fate that Dalyth was spared :
A trillion murdercells quivered with hungry life,as if each and every one tasted the scent of their prey, far below.
The vessel of death, the exterminatus torpedo, waited held securely in a cantilevered launch cradle.
Wait..death was told. Wait and soon you shall feed...

An inquisitor planned it, but was stopped by higher authority and ignoring that, by force. But still this planet was endangered to be
virus-bombed....with everyone on it. Not only the Tau but also the crusade. Such is the way of the radical.

The imperial advance came to a halt when the firebrand cardinal left. The Brimlocks were used to the speeches and lost coherence with the other elements of the imperial forces when they stopped confuzzled.

Tau vs titans:
They ambushed a warhound early on, and that was the only loss. Afterwards the god-machines moved with infantry support to flush out spotters and dispatch suit-teams.
The Tau tried to use stealth suits and fusion blasters to disable the titans at short range.


It was new to both opponents:






Forces involved:

- 1 scythes of the emperor dread. 1 novamarines dread ( 1 dread confirmed disabled )
- rhinos,razorbacks, predators, whirlwinds. a few of each. ( 2 predators confirmed lost. )
- contributions of a dozen chapters. White scars, ultramarines, emperors scythes,iron hands, black templars, subjugators,aurora,novamarines, and more. 200 ~ 300 marines. ( ~ 25 confirmed dead )
- tac squads, assaultmarines devastators.
- Landspeeder squadrons ( 2 LS confirmed lost, crew saved )
- IN thunderbolts as ground support. ( 1 confirmed shot down )
- brimlock 2nd and 4th, rakarshans, stormtroopers, ( a company confirmed destroyed )
- mobile air defence companies ( hydras)
- thousands of guardsmen and hundreds of tanks.
- a warlord.
- 6 reavers, warhounds ( 1 warhound confirmed lost )
- nomad, nova-class frigate, WS
- oceanid, heavy cruiser, RT
- fairlight, cruiser,RT
- rosetta, cruiser,RT
- blade of woe, battlecruiser,IN
- fist of light, strike cruiser , IH
- destroyers and frigates,tenders,tankers,troop transports, IN
- toil of digamma, AM ( carring Legio thanataris)
- droppods (SM), dropships (IN) able to ferry squads, companies etc (1 dropship lost)

- Kroot ( several hundred blown apart in whirlwind salvos, dozens slain in CC, dozens frfsrf 'd, )
- knarlocs, great knarloc ( confirmed dead )
- stealth suits ( a hundred confirmed dead vs titans another hundred confirmed dead vs infantry, )
- suit teams ( heavies and standard pattern, scores of them. )
- skimmers, fishes, skyrays, etc
- fire warriors ( unknown death toll )
- flyers, ( 5+x shot down ) IN had air superiority established
- incoming fleet, (2 vessels and defense stations destroyed,)



the ad mech isn't as dumb as some want us to believe:

the Tau got their asses handed to them on a silver platter and were about to be force fed their own posteriors, but then the Crusade was told they had better things to do then punch a little upstart Xeno race.

Once again, with the exception of virusbombing the planets ( assuming the templars have enough of the Lifeeater and their fleet actually manages to deploy it's exterminatus class weapons ) what enables a few thousand Spacemarines to conquer an entire world? They lack numbers, they lack heavy support ( oh look, a few dozen landraiders and perhaps a few hundred Predators..against a world which can, if their production capabilities are similar to 2end WW earth, produce many thousands of tanks each year ), they lack aircraft and most important of all, they cannot replenish their numbers.
Marines can cripple a world, they can, if deployed properly, devastate the military infrastructure of a world but, thanks to their low numbers, they can never actually conquer it. That job falls to the massive numbers
of the Imperial Guard.

1000 BT to take out third sphere world... So what are they going to use for the other 30 some worlds (and some sources suggest closer to 100) and a lot of them much more heavyly defended than a border world.

Like i said. If they stripped all their chapter worlds of every fighting man and 'relocated' to Tau worlds they'd do it easily. 6000 Marines by them selves? not a hope.

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau got their asses handed to them on a silver platter and were about to be force fed their own posteriors, but then the Crusade was told they had better things to do then punch a little upstart Xeno race.

Last time i checked the Damocles fluff the crusade ended in a stalemate, with neither side actually managing to break trough.

Nerivant wrote:Dal'yth is, IIRC, the least militarized the first founding worlds. Sa'cea or Vior'la would be able to handle a lot worse.

And the Tau pulled a large amount of their entire Empire's defensive capabilities back to Dal'yth.

What's your point?

If the Imperium wanted to kill the Tau, damn the consequences, they'd do it.
You want a fun fact about the Imperium?

This is a bit from the Imperial Munitorum Manual by Graham McNeill, considered 100% canon, that details the supply usage by a single Cadian regiment during the 13th Black Crusade. It was from a turning point during the fighting on Cadia, and was from the fighting lasting a single week to hold a sector of a Kasr.

During the 91st Cadian's recent combat operations during the 13th Black Crusade, lasting a week, they expended 400,000 Lasgun Power Packs, 120,000 ration packs, over 3 million gallons of fuel, 13,300 pints of Type O Negative, and expended enough ordnance to level a continent.

If you really think the Tau can stand that can of knock-down, dragout fighting--Tau players you're delusional.

Brother Coa wrote:I do not hate Tau, I hate when people start talking about Tau like they are all children of Chuck Norris...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Actually, Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet, fortified it to the teeth, repelled the intitial invaders, then finally waged a ground war against Space Marines that resorted to playing an attrition battle, something they seldom do. After slaughtering a company of Space Marines and two regiments he was recalled for brutality and the IoM defeated the Tau.

BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Like this...

Still, 6000 men AREN'T going to destroy a species and conquer well over 100 worlds.

Movac wrote:If the Inquisition,Ultramarines and friends stopped being such a bunch of insufferable nerds and said "Oye Helbrecht, form the largest crusade the Imperium has seen in ten thousand years and go into the Eastern Fringe and "GET S*** DONE"...how long would it take them to completely wipe out the garbage that is the Tau Empire?

-They're already under attack by Orks and Tyranids.
-Massive BT Fleet based on fighting mobile warfare.
-6,000ish existing battle-brothers plus countless Neophyte meatshields.

My guess is that "Mission Accomplished" would be on the deck of the Eternal Crusader in a year or two.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to wipe out the garbage that is the Eye of Chaos? Perhaps the IoM are too weak and badly organised to do that.

1hadhq wrote:So to add a few things to consider:

the crusade was set up with this in mind:

Spoiler:

SS/P360:
When the tau were first encountered, by rogue traders, they were deemed a low level threat.
They were found only in small groups, coreward of the gulf, and usually acting as mercenaries or advisors to planetary governors who had...strayed, to a greater or lesser extent, from the rule of the Imperium. But that was uncovered as a ruse.

They were acting as fifth columnists, ifiltrating system after system in an effort to expand their sphere of influence. The crusade was raised to put that threat down.

Every shred of intelligence and analysis available to us indicated they could hold no more than a handful of worlds. When they were first catalogued, millenia ago, they were no more than over-evolved dromedaries with no technology more advanced than sharp sticks.

The size of the sent force was considered enough. Never meant to assail what was there.

Spoiler:

SS/P68:
In truth, the damocles gulf crusade was a relatively minor undertaking in the grand scheme of the IoM's wars...

Minor. Not standard sized or planned to deal with a empire. Minor.


the retreat of the Tau:

Spoiler:

The tau were disengaging across the entire city, the last of their units falling back on the star port to be evacuated by huge wallowing transports. The Tau were still mounting a defence, but it was poorly coordinated and piecemeal , and the crusade armies were pushing them back on every front. By all accounts, the enemys command and control network had collapsed, and the Tau leaders on the ground had proven ill-prepared to adapt.

To rely upon tech is a weakness when tech fails.
The tau sent Kroot to stop the spearheads of the crusade from entering the star port, but those were no match for space marines.
Seems the training as a unit disables them to act as individual effectively when cut off.

the deathbringer, instrument of an inquisitor, a fate that Dalyth was spared :
A trillion murdercells quivered with hungry life,as if each and every one tasted the scent of their prey, far below.
The vessel of death, the exterminatus torpedo, waited held securely in a cantilevered launch cradle.
Wait..death was told. Wait and soon you shall feed...

An inquisitor planned it, but was stopped by higher authority and ignoring that, by force. But still this planet was endangered to be
virus-bombed....with everyone on it. Not only the Tau but also the crusade. Such is the way of the radical.

The imperial advance came to a halt when the firebrand cardinal left. The Brimlocks were used to the speeches and lost coherence with the other elements of the imperial forces when they stopped confuzzled.

Tau vs titans:
They ambushed a warhound early on, and that was the only loss. Afterwards the god-machines moved with infantry support to flush out spotters and dispatch suit-teams.
The Tau tried to use stealth suits and fusion blasters to disable the titans at short range.

Spoiler:

Tau stealth siuts launched desperate and often suicidal attacks , leaping form high buildings in an effort to board the war-machines.
They swarmed titans and were brushed off when the titan walked through the next building...or stitched off by
friendly fire which cannot threaten a titan... the lack of anti-titan potential was obvious.
A 60 suits purple blood smeared in garish patterns across the upper hull of a titan as the only remainder of their existence...

The titans unleashed holy hell on every tau defence point they encountered, flattening structures hundreds of metres tall and striding through the high walkways, causing hundreds of defenders to plummet to their deaths below.

It was new to both opponents:

Spoiler:

SS/P27:
As the space marines pressed on, it became evident that their assault had achieved some measure of surprise.Either the Tau had not expected the space marines to defeat what forces had defended erinia beta, or they had fatally misunderstood the crusades capabilities.
SS/P271:
the manner of defence made it clear that the tau had not expected any enemy to ever penetrate so deep.
...the space marine were able to bypass strongpoints and render them entirely ineffectual.

Forces involved:

- 1 scythes of the emperor dread. 1 novamarines dread ( 1 dread confirmed disabled )
- rhinos,razorbacks, predators, whirlwinds. a few of each. ( 2 predators confirmed lost. )
- contributions of a dozen chapters. White scars, ultramarines, emperors scythes,iron hands, black templars, subjugators,aurora,novamarines, and more. 200 ~ 300 marines. ( ~ 25 confirmed dead )
- tac squads, assaultmarines devastators.
- Landspeeder squadrons ( 2 LS confirmed lost, crew saved )
- IN thunderbolts as ground support. ( 1 confirmed shot down )
- brimlock 2nd and 4th, rakarshans, stormtroopers, ( a company confirmed destroyed )
- mobile air defence companies ( hydras)
- thousands of guardsmen and hundreds of tanks.
- a warlord.
- 6 reavers, warhounds ( 1 warhound confirmed lost )
- nomad, nova-class frigate, WS
- oceanid, heavy cruiser, RT
- fairlight, cruiser,RT
- rosetta, cruiser,RT
- blade of woe, battlecruiser,IN
- fist of light, strike cruiser , IH
- destroyers and frigates,tenders,tankers,troop transports, IN
- toil of digamma, AM ( carring Legio thanataris)
- droppods (SM), dropships (IN) able to ferry squads, companies etc (1 dropship lost)

- Kroot ( several hundred blown apart in whirlwind salvos, dozens slain in CC, dozens frfsrf 'd, )
- knarlocs, great knarloc ( confirmed dead )
- stealth suits ( a hundred confirmed dead vs titans another hundred confirmed dead vs infantry, )
- suit teams ( heavies and standard pattern, scores of them. )
- skimmers, fishes, skyrays, etc
- fire warriors ( unknown death toll )
- flyers, ( 5+x shot down ) IN had air superiority established
- incoming fleet, (2 vessels and defense stations destroyed,)



the ad mech isn't as dumb as some want us to believe:

Spoiler:

SS/P363:
Ostensibly,the adepts of the machine god were tasked with fathoming the operation of the star ports anti-grav cradles, which would speed up the landing of and liftoff of the hundreds of troop transports that would be soon be in operation immeasurebly. It took the
tech priests less than an hour to master the anti-grav generators, and another for them to begin disassembling at least one for later study.

You forgot to mention the fact that all these Imperial losses were in a fight for a single city.

And that the Tau managed to kill any titans is props to them, considering they have no analogues. I bet this: http://chapterhousestudios.com/webshop/component/virtuemart/?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=81&category_id=37&vmcchk=1 could kill SEVERAL titans.

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau got their asses handed to them on a silver platter and were about to be force fed their own posteriors, but then the Crusade was told they had better things to do then punch a little upstart Xeno race.

Last time i checked the Damocles fluff the crusade ended in a stalemate, with neither side actually managing to break trough.

which means the Imperium was winning.

the Imperium takes the meaning of War of Attrition to a whole new level.



and Space marines don't fight a conventional war.

they would use Thunderhawks and Drop Pods to launch lightining strikes to weaken and disorganize the enemy.

knocking out Etherials, fuel depots, Factories, ammo dumps....

thats how Marines take planets against many times their number of foes.


and a new crusade wouldn't just be marines, there would be Guard too.

KingDeath wrote:Once again, with the exception of virusbombing the planets ( assuming the templars have enough of the Lifeeater and their fleet actually manages to deploy it's exterminatus class weapons )

Every Space Marine ship can feasibly deploy Exterminatus class weapons. And the Life Eater isn't the only virus the Imperium has. It's just the most effective.

And considering Battle Barges have cut their way through entire Tau fleets before, I'd say odds are pretty high that the Black Templars can manage it what with having the largest fleet of almost any single Space Marine Chapter.

what enables a few thousand Spacemarines to conquer an entire world? They lack numbers, they lack heavy support ( oh look, a few dozen landraiders and perhaps a few hundred Predators..against a world which can, if their production capabilities are similar to 2end WW earth, produce many thousands of tanks each year ), they lack aircraft and most important of all, they cannot replenish their numbers.

Who says the Marines lack aircraft? Thunderhawks are aircraft.

Oh, you mean fighter jets. Well the Tau don't have those either. Their craft are without exception all superheavies.
But I will point you to the Land Speeder Tempest. One man craft, equipped with Typhoon launchers and Assault Cannon.

Marines can cripple a world, they can, if deployed properly, devastate the military infrastructure of a world but, thanks to their low numbers, they can never actually conquer it. That job falls to the massive numbers
of the Imperial Guard.

It's not hard to conquer a world of corpses.

Space Marines CAN'T use exterminatus. Only Inquisitors, High-Lords, Primarchs, and the Emperor have the authority to do that. And Battle-Barges CAN'T cut through entire fleets of Tau ships. A single Tau Battleship of the Gal'Leath variety is equal to or greater than a Battle Barge.

Also, the DGC did NOT end on even terms. The Tau brought a MASSIVE fleet that completely outmanned/outgunned the Tau fleet. They agreed on peace because the Tau didn't want any more death, and the IoM wanted to squash some bugs.

Grey Templar wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau got their asses handed to them on a silver platter and were about to be force fed their own posteriors, but then the Crusade was told they had better things to do then punch a little upstart Xeno race.

Last time i checked the Damocles fluff the crusade ended in a stalemate, with neither side actually managing to break trough.

which means the Imperium was winning.

What? Imperium attacks Dal'yth and then agree's to peace without actually concuring the world because they were winning? This sounds like space marines to you?

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Dal'yth is, IIRC, the least militarized the first founding worlds. Sa'cea or Vior'la would be able to handle a lot worse.

And the Tau pulled a large amount of their entire Empire's defensive capabilities back to Dal'yth.

What's your point?

If the Imperium wanted to kill the Tau, damn the consequences, they'd do it.

Wanting, and being able to, are two different things.

im2randomghgh wrote:Space Marines CAN'T use exterminatus. Only Inquisitors, High-Lords, Primarchs, and the Emperor have the authority to do that. And Battle-Barges CAN'T cut through entire fleets of Tau ships. A single Tau Battleship of the Gal'Leath variety is equal to or greater than a Battle Barge.

The hell they can't. Space Marines commit Exterminatus quite often.

In terms of weaponry, maybe the Gal'Leath is equal to or greater than a Battle Barge. In terms of armor?

Hah.

Also, the DGC did NOT end on even terms. The Tau brought a MASSIVE fleet that completely outmanned/outgunned the Tau fleet. They agreed on peace because the Tau didn't want any more death, and the IoM wanted to squash some bugs.

The IoM didn't "want" to squash some bugs. The largest Hive Fleet to hit the Imperium was oncoming. Somehow some smurf hippies hanging around in the backyard just don't seem as critical compared to a race that has devoured entire star systems.

Brother Coa wrote:I do not hate Tau, I hate when people start talking about Tau like they are all children of Chuck Norris...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Actually, Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet, fortified it to the teeth, repelled the intitial invaders, then finally waged a ground war against Space Marines that resorted to playing an attrition battle, something they seldom do. After slaughtering a company of Space Marines and two regiments he was recalled for brutality and the IoM defeated the Tau.

BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Like this...

That's actually listed in the codex as the Koloth Gorge Massacre. There seems to be some kind of confusion or plot mess about it. Apparently the IoM sent two forces to take it back. the first was wiped out (No mention of if they are marines), brightsword was recalled, then the Marines where deployed. The codex stops talking after brightsword left though.

Really in general cannon is not consistent on how strong a fire warrior is (Example the video game fire warrior). Are they stronger then Marines or not. I honestly don't know what the answer is suppose to be. One quote talks about a tank with one hole in the front, one hole in the back, and one long blood stain after that. A weapon like (My guess is rail gun) that should kill a Marine right?

im2randomghgh wrote:
Still, 6000 men AREN'T going to destroy a species and conquer well over 100 worlds.

Do you know who Black Templars are?

Do you know why Space Marines are?

They would r*** Tau if they invade... To bad they have bigger threats to combat...

VoxDei wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Tau got their asses handed to them on a silver platter and were about to be force fed their own posteriors, but then the Crusade was told they had better things to do then punch a little upstart Xeno race.

Last time i checked the Damocles fluff the crusade ended in a stalemate, with neither side actually managing to break trough.

which means the Imperium was winning.

What? Imperium attacks Dal'yth and then agrees to peace without actually conquering the world because they were winning? This sounds like space marines to you?

Despite people's insistence, Space Marines look at things in terms of 'The Big Picture'.

There's Chapters that would likely continue the fight, but most of them are pragmatists. They know it's better to leave and come back than to keep fighting.

Nerivant wrote:
Wanting, and being able to, are two different things.

Wanting, being able to, and having the motivation to do so are three different things.

Right now, the Tau Empire are in the pathway of several Ork Waaghs and a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Getting stuck in serves no purpose when you can have a meatshield.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet,After attacking a company of Space Marines and slaughtering two regiments he was recalled for attracting the IoM'S attention and the IoM sent the templars to eradicate all Tau from nimbosa.

Great idea. Killing civilians and getting your ass handed.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Nice. Now we just need some reference for your claims.
The estimated size of the BT is in the BT codex. Your imagined Tau force is just in your dreams?

As Legions, planets were conquered by companies, accompanied by a Primarch. There is a HH series where you may look that up.

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Wanting, and being able to, are two different things.

Wanting, being able to, and having the motivation to do so are three different things.

Right now, the Tau Empire are in the pathway of several Ork Waaghs and a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Getting stuck in serves no purpose when you can have a meatshield.

No, it doesn't. The IoM could crush the Tau, no questions asked. But it can't pull ships and men out of it's infinite other engagements in a scale large enough to destroy the Tau.

Kanluwen wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:Space Marines CAN'T use exterminatus. Only Inquisitors, High-Lords, Primarchs, and the Emperor have the authority to do that. And Battle-Barges CAN'T cut through entire fleets of Tau ships. A single Tau Battleship of the Gal'Leath variety is equal to or greater than a Battle Barge.

The hell they can't. Space Marines commit Exterminatus quite often.

In terms of weaponry, maybe the Gal'Leath is equal to or greater than a Battle Barge. In terms of armor?

Hah.

Also, the DGC did NOT end on even terms. The Tau brought a MASSIVE fleet that completely outmanned/outgunned the Tau fleet. They agreed on peace because the Tau didn't want any more death, and the IoM wanted to squash some bugs.

The IoM didn't "want" to squash some bugs. The largest Hive Fleet to hit the Imperium was oncoming. Somehow some smurf hippies hanging around in the backyard just don't seem as critical compared to a race that has devoured entire star systems.

Yes, but they are half the cost. BFG is fun when you have firepower AND numbers. And because of the immense firepower, they can still punch BB into oblivion.

Also, their Demiurg allies have ships with equal armour and stronger shields to BBs.

Also, Kroot warsheres have nearly identical armour at 1/4 the cost.

Also, railguns.

Also, Manta's [are very effective against everything and everyone]. [Mod Edit]

1hadhq wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet,After attacking a company of Space Marines and slaughtering two regiments he was recalled for attracting the IoM'S attention and the IoM sent the templars to eradicate all Tau from nimbosa.

Great idea. Killing civilians and getting your ass handed.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Nice. Now we just need some reference for your claims.
The estimated size of the BT is in the BT codex. Your imagined Tau force is just in your dreams?

As Legions, planets were conquered by companies, accompanied by a Primarch. There is a HH series where you may look that up.

Nothing worse than a Tau fan...

1hadhq wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet,After attacking a company of Space Marines and slaughtering two regiments he was recalled for attracting the IoM'S attention and the IoM sent the templars to eradicate all Tau from nimbosa.

Great idea. Killing civilians and getting your ass handed.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Nice. Now we just need some reference for your claims.
The estimated size of the BT is in the BT codex. Your imagined Tau force is just in your dreams?

As Legions, planets were conquered by companies, accompanied by a Primarch. There is a HH series where you may look that up.

Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

Actually, it took all of Tau military forces to stop Damocles forces - a manor crusade.

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

Actually, it took all of Tau military forces to stop Damocles forces - a manor crusade.

Actually, no. The Tau called in significant reinforcements, but the fighting was just the Tau stationed on Dal'yth Prime. The PDF.

Kanluwen wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Once again, with the exception of virusbombing the planets ( assuming the templars have enough of the Lifeeater and their fleet actually manages to deploy it's exterminatus class weapons )

Every Space Marine ship can feasibly deploy Exterminatus class weapons. And the Life Eater isn't the only virus the Imperium has. It's just the most effective.

And considering Battle Barges have cut their way through entire Tau fleets before, I'd say odds are pretty high that the Black Templars can manage it what with having the largest fleet of almost any single Space Marine Chapter.

what enables a few thousand Spacemarines to conquer an entire world? They lack numbers, they lack heavy support ( oh look, a few dozen landraiders and perhaps a few hundred Predators..against a world which can, if their production capabilities are similar to 2end WW earth, produce many thousands of tanks each year ), they lack aircraft and most important of all, they cannot replenish their numbers.

Who says the Marines lack aircraft? Thunderhawks are aircraft.

Oh, you mean fighter jets. Well the Tau don't have those either. Their craft are without exception all superheavies.
But I will point you to the Land Speeder Tempest. One man craft, equipped with Typhoon launchers and Assault Cannon.

Marines can cripple a world, they can, if deployed properly, devastate the military infrastructure of a world but, thanks to their low numbers, they can never actually conquer it. That job falls to the massive numbers
of the Imperial Guard.

It's not hard to conquer a world of corpses.

The number of Exterminatus-Virus strains avaiable to the Imperium is not the issue but merely if the Black Templars have the necessary quantity of exterminatus weaponry to actually destroy 100+ planets and
if they get close enough to do so. The Black templars have a large fleet, but the majority of it consists of light cruisers and escorts, with perhaps a dozen battlebarges ( this is speculation, but would make sense unless the chapter has a much higher battlebarge to marine ratio than other chapters, which seems unlikely.). I would find it hard to believe that the entire Tau navy couldn't match that.

Battlebarges are, at least if we go by BFG stats, more or less comparable to the largest Tau Spacecraft ( at least as long as the Custodian has it's full complement of Wardens ). They won't "cut their way trough entire Tau fleets".
Spacemarines lack any means to actually get air superiority, they have nothing which equals the Baracuda or even the Remora Drones. Thunderhawks are heavily armed transports and gunships, not fightercraft.
The Land Speeder Typhoon is, if we go by it's Imperial armour description, not a fighter and more comparable to a modern attack helicopter ( which it matches in speed and firepower ).

So no, unless the Marines win the war in space ( unlikely with perhaps a dozen well armed battlebarges and only strikecruisers/escorts for the rest ) and then manage to bomb everything on the ground into oblivion there will be no "world of corpses" to conquer.

Nerivant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Wanting, and being able to, are two different things.

Wanting, being able to, and having the motivation to do so are three different things.

Right now, the Tau Empire are in the pathway of several Ork Waaghs and a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Getting stuck in serves no purpose when you can have a meatshield.

No, it doesn't. The IoM could crush the Tau, no questions asked. But it can't pull ships and men out of it's infinite other engagements in a scale large enough to destroy the Tau.

The Imperium of Man don't need to pull ships and men out of its infinite other engagements in a scale large enough to destroy the Tau.

I'd suggest you invest in the Deathwatch RPG book. It describes how Exterminatus is carried out on inhabited systems pretty well. The IoM has servitor piloted 'Killships'. They're completely undetectable and sneak up on a world to fire off a planet-killing weapon before exiting the system.

im2randomghgh wrote:Yes, but they are half the cost. BFG is fun when you have firepower AND numbers. And because of the immense firepower, they can still punch BB into oblivion.

Also, their Demiurg allies have ships with equal armour and stronger shields to BBs.

Also, Kroot warspheres have nearly identical armour at 1/4 the cost.

Also, railguns.

So what you're saying is that because of the fact that you can field a ton of them in BFG, the Tau has limitless supplies of this particular class of battleship?

Huh. Unique.

Also, Mantas rape everything in the ass.

I don't think this phrasing was really necessary, but I'll also point out that Mantas in void combat are equivalent to Thunderhawks.

And in atmosphere, they're wallowing targets that required the Tau to pull entire wings of air superiority interceptors and air to ground fighters from other theaters of combat to ensure that they didn't get shot down by ground fired weaponry.

So yeah...there's definitely that.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

Actually, it took all of Tau military forces to stop Damocles forces - a manor crusade.

Actually, no. The Tau called in significant reinforcements, but the fighting was just the Tau stationed on Dal'yth Prime. The PDF.

So why did the Tau call in "significant reinforcements"?

im2randomghgh wrote:

You forgot to mention the fact that all these Imperial losses were in a fight for a single city.

No. I forgot to mention the tau were in full retreat off that planet.

They hoped to take it back with their fleet. They ignored the warnings of the rogue traders.
The IoM did chose to keep them alive, and didn't unleash the already prepared virus bomb.

So its the other way round.
The IoM refrained from killing Tau just to kill them. They put some value into them as possible roadblock against nids.
But as seen, Tau need IoM, necrons, DE to beat the nids.

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Wanting, and being able to, are two different things.

Wanting, being able to, and having the motivation to do so are three different things.

Right now, the Tau Empire are in the pathway of several Ork Waaghs and a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Getting stuck in serves no purpose when you can have a meatshield.

No, it doesn't. The IoM could crush the Tau, no questions asked. But it can't pull ships and men out of it's infinite other engagements in a scale large enough to destroy the Tau.

The Imperium of Man don't need to pull ships and men out of its infinite other engagements in a scale large enough to destroy the Tau.

I'd suggest you invest in the Deathwatch RPG book. It describes how Exterminatus is carried out on inhabited systems pretty well. The IoM has servitor piloted 'Killships'. They're completely undetectable and sneak up on a world to fire off a planet-killing weapon before exiting the system.

Is it wrong to expect a race that has a pretty firm grasp on cloaking technology to have a way of penetrating cloaking and detecting a kill-ship?

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

Actually, it took all of Tau military forces to stop Damocles forces - a manor crusade.

That was all the military forces of ONE sept. vs 5 marine chapters, 4 Imperial Guard Regiments and a titan legion...

Kanluwen wrote:
So why did the Tau call in "significant reinforcements"?

The reinforcements arrived late.

@1hadHQ, They were evacuating citizens, because unlike the IoM, they CARE ABOUT CIVILIAN LOSSES.

If they HAD unleashed the V-bomb, they superior Tau fleet would have broken them over their knee.

im2randomghgh wrote:


Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

Funnily the EC were the smallest legion and I want you to list the lord commanders involved in that campaign.
SO?

KingDeath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Once again, with the exception of virusbombing the planets ( assuming the templars have enough of the Lifeeater and their fleet actually manages to deploy it's exterminatus class weapons )

Every Space Marine ship can feasibly deploy Exterminatus class weapons. And the Life Eater isn't the only virus the Imperium has. It's just the most effective.

And considering Battle Barges have cut their way through entire Tau fleets before, I'd say odds are pretty high that the Black Templars can manage it what with having the largest fleet of almost any single Space Marine Chapter.

what enables a few thousand Spacemarines to conquer an entire world? They lack numbers, they lack heavy support ( oh look, a few dozen landraiders and perhaps a few hundred Predators..against a world which can, if their production capabilities are similar to 2end WW earth, produce many thousands of tanks each year ), they lack aircraft and most important of all, they cannot replenish their numbers.

Who says the Marines lack aircraft? Thunderhawks are aircraft.

Oh, you mean fighter jets. Well the Tau don't have those either. Their craft are without exception all superheavies.
But I will point you to the Land Speeder Tempest. One man craft, equipped with Typhoon launchers and Assault Cannon.

Marines can cripple a world, they can, if deployed properly, devastate the military infrastructure of a world but, thanks to their low numbers, they can never actually conquer it. That job falls to the massive numbers
of the Imperial Guard.

It's not hard to conquer a world of corpses.

The number of Exterminatus-Virus strains avaiable to the Imperium is not the issue but merely if the Black Templars have the necessary quantity of exterminatus weaponry to actually destroy 100+ planets and
if they get close enough to do so. The Black templars have a large fleet, but the majority of it consists of light cruisers and escorts, with perhaps a dozen battlebarges ( this is speculation, but would make sense unless the chapter has a much higher battlebarge to marine ratio than other chapters, which seems unlikely.). I would find it hard to believe that the entire Tau navy couldn't match that.

To suggest that the entire Tau navy would be in a single place at a single time is silly.

It takes one weakness in a Tau sector's defenses for the Black Templars to theoretically kick the door down. If the Black Templars were to throw their entire fleet against each sector one at a time, it would be entirely feasible. It's not like the Tau have instantaneous communication capabilities. They have to send ships between systems to pass communiques.

Battlebarges are, at least if we go by BFG stats, more or less comparable to the largest Tau Spacecraft ( at least as long as the Custodian has it's full complement of Wardens ). They won't "cut their way trough entire Tau fleets".

A standard sized Tau fleet? The hell they won't cut their way through the entirety of it.

Spacemarines lack any means to actually get air superiority, they have nothing which equals the Baracuda or even the Remora Drones.

Actually they really don't. It's called bombarding the airfields from orbit.

Nothing says air superiority like your opponent never getting airborne

This is where one of the biggest problems with these scenarios comes up. The goal of Exterminatus isn't to get boots on the ground or engage in air superiority. It's the complete and utter destruction of life in an area.

Thunderhawks are heavily armed transports and gunships, not fightercraft.

Wrong. They were originally introduced as a fighter for space combat to replace the aging Stormbird design. That they're used as gunships and 'heavily armed transports' now is really irrelevant.

But I will remind you that Thunderhawks are able to bring down Warhound Titans. The Tau had to employ Mantas to do that.

The Land Speeder Typhoon is, if we go by it's Imperial armour description, not a fighter and more comparable to a modern attack helicopter ( which it matches in speed and firepower ).

The Land Speeder TEMPEST is a fighter.

The Typhoon is more comparable to a modern attack helicopter, yes.
The Tempest is not.


This is the Tempest. It's uparmored and its role is to provide aerial cover(i.e. engaging aerial threats) to Marine formations.

So no, unless the Marines win the war in space ( unlikely with perhaps a dozen well armed battlebarges and only strikecruisers/escorts for the rest ) and then manage to bomb everything on the ground into oblivion there will be no "world of corpses" to conquer.

I think you really need to figure out how Exterminatus works.

You don't "bomb everything on the ground into oblivion". It's three or four bombs, deployed at once, and then you get the feth out of there in many cases.

You're also overestimating how much of the Tau fleet is able to convene in a location at once. Which is actually a boon for the Black Templars if the entire Tau Air Caste were to defend one single world.

Dal'yth Sept is not a major military sept either. The discription for them is 'a cosmopolitan and trader-friendly Sept'.

VoxDei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

Actually, it took all of Tau military forces to stop Damocles forces - a manor crusade.

That was all the military forces of ONE sept. vs 5 marine chapters, 4 Imperial Guard Regiments and a titan legion...

Elements of 5 Marine Chapters does not equal 5 Marine Chapters.

There was some 90 Marines involved in the biggest battle of the Damocles Gulf Crusade.

90 Marines.

Brother Coa wrote:
Why USA don't crush Cuba? They must be too weak and badly organised to do that.

Because we're not at war with Cuba? Who'd buy our junk car parts from the 1950s if Cuba wasn't around?




Sorry, go back to your regularly scheduled Tau hate.

I like the Tau, I like the BT... but to say that the Tau could hold off the full weight of the BT for any amount of time is ludicrous. Yes, they would suffer losses, but it is well known that a group of less than 100 can conquer systems (As is implied in the Hellsreach book). The BT are known for doing exactly this, wiping out entire sectors. If it was possible for them to muster their full weight with mecanicum support, the Tau would fall. It's simple, as others in this thread have said, there are larger threats out there. The Nid are coming, and the Templar are far too spread out.

It's not even really 'Tau hate'. It's just correcting misconceived notions of the strength of the Tau Empire.

VoxDei wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Actually, it took all of the Emperor's Children to defeat the Laer. Just sayin'

Actually, it took all of Tau military forces to stop Damocles forces - a manor crusade.

That was all the military forces of ONE sept. vs 5 marine chapters, 4 Imperial Guard Regiments and a titan legion...

it was 5 marine companies, not even a full chapter.

4 IG regiments is NOT alot of guys.

and there were less then 10 titans. that isn't a Legion by any means, where they often deploy upwards of 50-100 Titans at once.

agnosto wrote:
Sorry, go back to your regularly scheduled Tau hate.

It's not Tau hate, it's just people saying that Tau Empire can conquer Imperium of Man.

We are just trying to implement how impossible that is. And to implement how fragile Tau Empire is against not only Imperium - but evenyone else....

im2randomghgh wrote: They were evacuating citizens, because unlike the IoM, they CARE ABOUT CIVILIAN LOSSES.

If they HAD unleashed the V-bomb, they superior Tau fleet would have broken them over their knee.

See the Imperium also cares to make civilian losses as high as possible, like the Tau who feed their opponents to their "birds"...

Secondly, the virus bomb was already moving towards the surface and the tau fleet never able to intercept.
Only autodestruct saved them.

Would a example of life eater virus application teach the Tau a few things about the dedication in this galaxy to get one killed for sure?

Kanluwen wrote:It's not even really 'Tau hate'. It's just correcting misconceived notions of the strength of the Tau Empire.

I wish I could put half as much emotion and work into my actual job as you do into a fictional universe.


Let's not forget plot armor. Seriously, GW set themselves up for this with the way the introduced the Tau empire but I'll never understand how people actually get butt-hurt about this stuff. It's a game or a book or whatever, go mow your yard, have a beer and take a breath (not aimed at you in particular).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:

agnosto wrote:
Sorry, go back to your regularly scheduled Tau hate.

It's not Tau hate, it's just people saying that Tau Empire can conquer Imperium of Man.

We are just trying to implement how impossible that is. And to implement how fragile Tau Empire is against not only Imperium - but evenyone else....

I just read through the whole thread and never saw anyone even mention that the Tau Empire could conquer the IoM. It seems the main bone of contention here is exactly what amount of force it would take for the IoM to squash the Tau and their allies.

Nerivant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:
Wanting, and being able to, are two different things.

Wanting, being able to, and having the motivation to do so are three different things.

Right now, the Tau Empire are in the pathway of several Ork Waaghs and a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Getting stuck in serves no purpose when you can have a meatshield.

No, it doesn't. The IoM could crush the Tau, no questions asked. But it can't pull ships and men out of it's infinite other engagements in a scale large enough to destroy the Tau.

The Imperium of Man don't need to pull ships and men out of its infinite other engagements in a scale large enough to destroy the Tau.

I'd suggest you invest in the Deathwatch RPG book. It describes how Exterminatus is carried out on inhabited systems pretty well. The IoM has servitor piloted 'Killships'. They're completely undetectable and sneak up on a world to fire off a planet-killing weapon before exiting the system.

Is it wrong to expect a race that has a pretty firm grasp on cloaking technology to have a way of penetrating cloaking and detecting a kill-ship?

Land cloaking and space cloaking use different forms of cloaking. The stealth suits do something like bending light or having a form that reflects radio waves. In space, you are stealthy by containing your heat and other emissions. The tau might not know anything about cloaking in space. (Space might also work different in 40k. I am just guessing here.)

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
So why did the Tau call in "significant reinforcements"?

The reinforcements arrived late.

@1hadHQ, They were evacuating citizens, because unlike the IoM, they CARE ABOUT CIVILIAN LOSSES.

If they HAD unleashed the V-bomb, they superior Tau fleet would have broken them over their knee.

The tau didn't have a strong fleet back then. It's not till latter that they start making the big ships.


--
I have come to a conclusion. This makes no sense. I mean honestly. One place says the IoM won every battle with out braking a sweat. One place says that the tau can one shot tanks and titans. I don't think GW has canon of proper fluidity to actually answer this question. That doesn't mean we can't have fun talking about who can beat up who. Just that we should focus on the fun rather then trying to prove one side.

agnosto wrote:
I wish I could put half as much emotion and work into my actual job as you do into a fictional universe.

Let's not forget plot armor. Seriously, GW set themselves up for this with the way the introduced the Tau empire but I'll never understand how people actually get butt-hurt about this stuff. It's a game or a book or whatever, go mow your yard, have a beer and take a breath (not aimed at you in particular).

It's that just 40k is awesome and our reality suck balls...

I have 21 year, I survived 2 major wars, 2'nd biggest inflation on a planet and living in state that is more concerned about gay parade than negative birthrate of our people ( 30.000 more dies than get born every year ) and who is more concern of what Europe think about us than doing something to help the people. And now you tell me not to read to much 40k books...

Semi-unrelated, Tau Manta=the largest model GW has ever produced. It is basically a flying fortresses that swats everything it sees out of the way. It can fire upwards of 50 shots per turn.

It is almost a meter across.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tau/TAU-AIRCRAFT/TAU-MANTA.html

And for all you who say this isn't Tau hate, go back and re-read everything Kanluwen has written.

agnosto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It's not even really 'Tau hate'. It's just correcting misconceived notions of the strength of the Tau Empire.

I wish I could put half as much emotion and work into my actual job as you do into a fictional universe.

I just wish I could find an actual full-time job that doesn't involve a paper hat right now. Trade you?

Let's not forget plot armor. Seriously, GW set themselves up for this with the way the introduced the Tau empire but I'll never understand how people actually get butt-hurt about this stuff. It's a game or a book or whatever, go mow your yard, have a beer and take a breath (not aimed at you in particular).

The way the Tau Empire was introduced isn't really an issue. It was pretty clear that they had a kind of 'divine protection', what with Warp Storms magically appearing to prevent them from being 'purged' for Imperial settlers.

The issue is this misconception that the Damocles Gulf Crusade was really the Imperium 'trying' to purge the Tau. It was going off of intel from the first time the Tau were encountered and cataloged.

To give a comparison: it's like if we were to go and clearcut the rain forests in Brazil and those tribes we've spotted with aerial surveillance that have had no contact with modern civilization?
It would be like if they came out fighting us with giant robots and lasers.

Brother Coa wrote:

agnosto wrote:
Sorry, go back to your regularly scheduled Tau hate.

It's not Tau hate, it's just people saying that Tau Empire can conquer Imperium of Man.

We are just trying to implement how impossible that is. And to implement how fragile Tau Empire is against not only Imperium - but evenyone else....

I just read through the whole thread and never saw anyone even mention that the Tau Empire could conquer the IoM. It seems the main bone of contention here is exactly what amount of force it would take for the IoM to squash the Tau and their allies.

Well that and that the Imperium hasn't really tried.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

im2randomghgh wrote:Semi-unrelated, Tau Manta=the largest model GW has ever produced. It is basically a flying fortresses that swats everything it sees out of the way. It can fire upwards of 50 shots per turn.

It is almost a meter across.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Tau/TAU-AIRCRAFT/TAU-MANTA.html

And for all you who say this isn't Tau hate, go back and re-read everything Kanluwen has written.

Hey now. Not nice.

I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

Brother Coa wrote:

agnosto wrote:
I wish I could put half as much emotion and work into my actual job as you do into a fictional universe.

Let's not forget plot armor. Seriously, GW set themselves up for this with the way the introduced the Tau empire but I'll never understand how people actually get butt-hurt about this stuff. It's a game or a book or whatever, go mow your yard, have a beer and take a breath (not aimed at you in particular).

It's that just 40k is awesome and our reality suck balls...

I have 21 year, I survived 2 major wars, 2'nd biggest inflation on a planet and living in state that is more concerned about gay parade than negative birthrate of our people ( 30.000 more dies than get born every year ) and who is more concern of what Europe think about us than doing something to help the people. And now you tell me not to read to much 40k books...

Well what with the world's overpopulation and you guys already having 11x our population, a decrease in population isn't such a bad thing...not saying I am going to go around killing stuff, just saying there are two sides to it.

Anyways, I think we should put this conversation on pause until we see a 5ed Tau book.

Never! Do not suffer the Alien to live! For the Emperor! *Chainsaws rev in background*

Kanluwen wrote:
I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

That analogy is funny considering that the Tau name all their vehicles and stuff after fish

Shhh.. Don't type that kind of stuff; GW will make it happen. (about the rainforest tribes shooting lasers and having giant robots)

Really, who cares if one fictional army can beat another one. Put 'em on the table and roll some dice. I don't know all that much fluff but I know my units of broadsides can take down titans in 1 turn of shooting. It's a shame the ones in the books can't do that. Maybe if the writers would actually play the game, they might write better fluff.

I'll never own a Manta, I have no desire to put that monster together and certainly no desire to paint it. As bad as FW pieces what with warped bits, that would be an outright nightmare.

agnosto wrote:Shhh.. Don't type that kind of stuff; GW will make it happen.

Really, who cares if one fictional army can beat another one. Put 'em on the table and roll some dice. I don't know all that much fluff but I know my units of broadsides can take down titans in 1 turn of shooting. It's a shame the ones in the books can't do that. Maybe if the writers would actually play the game, they might write better fluff.

Yeah, remember in the SS books where the railguns basically turned boulders into liquid?

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

That analogy is funny considering that the Tau name all their vehicles and stuff after fish

I wonder if Matt Ward will write Codex:Tau? One criticism I have about him is that a lot of wargear he creates is very themed around the army he's writing about.

agnosto wrote:Shhh.. Don't type that kind of stuff; GW will make it happen.

Really, who cares if one fictional army can beat another one. Put 'em on the table and roll some dice. I don't know all that much fluff but I know my units of broadsides can take down titans in 1 turn of shooting. It's a shame the ones in the books can't do that. Maybe if the writers would actually play the game, they might write better fluff.

Well it depends.

Are we talking about Warhound Titans or Reavers/Warlords?

In terms of how things work in the books: Pour enough fire into something or find a weak spot in the shields--those Titans will go down to Broadsides.

But at the same time, Titans will usually have escorting infantry and armoured regiments that are wrecking those Broadsides.

Hence the Tau decided "Maybe we should pull those massive railguns out of the Manta...and put it in a Tiger Shark!"

"Won't the ammo weigh it down?"

"Well, maybe. But who cares. Big guns! Wooo!".

And thus the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 was born.

im2randomghgh wrote:That analogy is funny considering that the Tau name all their vehicles and stuff after fish

Actually...the Tau don't. The Imperium does.

The Tau likely name them something silly like the Mobile Personnel Ferry X56673235J.

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

That analogy is funny considering that the Tau name all their vehicles and stuff after fish

I wonder if Matt Ward will write Codex:Tau? One criticism I have about him is that a lot of wargear he creates is very themed around the army he's writing about.

Yeah, I want my Crisis Cannon and my Hammerhead Missile and whatever crap he'd come up with. He'd probably have the Tau falling in love with Chaos or something because they helped to repell the tyranids from a world... If I were him, I'd get my jollies everyday from writing that stuff:

Ward: Hey, Kirby, I'm going to throw this into the Tau codex, every weapon is named after the unit that uses it.
Kirby: How about some Greater Good references, we can't have these idiots forgetting what army they're playing.
Ward: Right, right right.
Both: cackle.
Ward: wait, I've got it! The Tau actually team up with Khorne to kick some Tyranid arse!
Kirby: Brilliant! Write it up!

Kanluwen wrote:
Hey now. Not nice.

I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

lets be honest now...they are at least sharks with laser beams attached to their heads...

agnosto wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

That analogy is funny considering that the Tau name all their vehicles and stuff after fish

I wonder if Matt Ward will write Codex:Tau? One criticism I have about him is that a lot of wargear he creates is very themed around the army he's writing about.

Yeah, I want my Crisis Cannon and my Hammerhead Missile and whatever crap he'd come up with. He'd probably have the Tau falling in love with Chaos or something because they helped to repell the tyranids from a world... If I were him, I'd get my jollies everyday from writing that stuff:

Ward: Hey, Kirby, I'm going to throw this into the Tau codex, every weapon is named after the unit that uses it.
Kirby: How about some Greater Good references, we can't have these idiots forgetting what army they're playing.
Ward: Right, right right.
Both: cackle.
Ward: wait, I've got it! The Tau actually team up with Khorne to kick some Tyranid arse!
Kirby: Brilliant! Write it up!

Try as hard as I might, I just can't bring myself to hate him. He clearly has an enthusiasm for what he's doing(and not the same kind of enthusiasm as that git Goto did).

He also is pretty clearly developing in terms of writing fluff. Good or bad, that still puts him miles beyond Goto.

VoxDei wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Hey now. Not nice.

I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

lets be honest now...they are at least sharks with railguns attached to their heads...

There, fixed it for you.

Kanluwen wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

KingDeath wrote:Once again, with the exception of virusbombing the planets ( assuming the templars have enough of the Lifeeater and their fleet actually manages to deploy it's exterminatus class weapons )

Every Space Marine ship can feasibly deploy Exterminatus class weapons. And the Life Eater isn't the only virus the Imperium has. It's just the most effective.

And considering Battle Barges have cut their way through entire Tau fleets before, I'd say odds are pretty high that the Black Templars can manage it what with having the largest fleet of almost any single Space Marine Chapter.

what enables a few thousand Spacemarines to conquer an entire world? They lack numbers, they lack heavy support ( oh look, a few dozen landraiders and perhaps a few hundred Predators..against a world which can, if their production capabilities are similar to 2end WW earth, produce many thousands of tanks each year ), they lack aircraft and most important of all, they cannot replenish their numbers.

Who says the Marines lack aircraft? Thunderhawks are aircraft.

Oh, you mean fighter jets. Well the Tau don't have those either. Their craft are without exception all superheavies.
But I will point you to the Land Speeder Tempest. One man craft, equipped with Typhoon launchers and Assault Cannon.

Marines can cripple a world, they can, if deployed properly, devastate the military infrastructure of a world but, thanks to their low numbers, they can never actually conquer it. That job falls to the massive numbers
of the Imperial Guard.

It's not hard to conquer a world of corpses.

The number of Exterminatus-Virus strains avaiable to the Imperium is not the issue but merely if the Black Templars have the necessary quantity of exterminatus weaponry to actually destroy 100+ planets and
if they get close enough to do so. The Black templars have a large fleet, but the majority of it consists of light cruisers and escorts, with perhaps a dozen battlebarges ( this is speculation, but would make sense unless the chapter has a much higher battlebarge to marine ratio than other chapters, which seems unlikely.). I would find it hard to believe that the entire Tau navy couldn't match that.

To suggest that the entire Tau navy would be in a single place at a single time is silly.

It takes one weakness in a Tau sector's defenses for the Black Templars to theoretically kick the door down. If the Black Templars were to throw their entire fleet against each sector one at a time, it would be entirely feasible. It's not like the Tau have instantaneous communication capabilities. They have to send ships between systems to pass communiques.

Battlebarges are, at least if we go by BFG stats, more or less comparable to the largest Tau Spacecraft ( at least as long as the Custodian has it's full complement of Wardens ). They won't "cut their way trough entire Tau fleets".

A standard sized Tau fleet? The hell they won't cut their way through the entirety of it.

Spacemarines lack any means to actually get air superiority, they have nothing which equals the Baracuda or even the Remora Drones.

Actually they really don't. It's called bombarding the airfields from orbit.

Nothing says air superiority like your opponent never getting airborne

This is where one of the biggest problems with these scenarios comes up. The goal of Exterminatus isn't to get boots on the ground or engage in air superiority. It's the complete and utter destruction of life in an area.

Thunderhawks are heavily armed transports and gunships, not fightercraft.

Wrong. They were originally introduced as a fighter for space combat to replace the aging Stormbird design. That they're used as gunships and 'heavily armed transports' now is really irrelevant.

But I will remind you that Thunderhawks are able to bring down Warhound Titans. The Tau had to employ Mantas to do that.

The Land Speeder Typhoon is, if we go by it's Imperial armour description, not a fighter and more comparable to a modern attack helicopter ( which it matches in speed and firepower ).

The Land Speeder TEMPEST is a fighter.

The Typhoon is more comparable to a modern attack helicopter, yes.
The Tempest is not.

This is the Tempest. It's uparmored and its role is to provide aerial cover(i.e. engaging aerial threats) to Marine formations.

So no, unless the Marines win the war in space ( unlikely with perhaps a dozen well armed battlebarges and only strikecruisers/escorts for the rest ) and then manage to bomb everything on the ground into oblivion there will be no "world of corpses" to conquer.

I think you really need to figure out how Exterminatus works.

You don't "bomb everything on the ground into oblivion". It's three or four bombs, deployed at once, and then you get the feth out of there in many cases.

You're also overestimating how much of the Tau fleet is able to convene in a location at once. Which is actually a boon for the Black Templars if the entire Tau Air Caste were to defend one single world.

Your ideas about the Tempest are unfortunately wrong. It has a max speed of 300KPH ( source: imperial armour 2 ) It is far slower than any kind of real aircraft and therefore, despite it's different method of locomotion, not even remotely viable for air superiority. It's role, according to IAII, is to "engage enemy infantry and armour" / "to provide fast moving firesupport for the lightning raids of their ( the White Scars's) bike squads".

What the Thunderhawk used to be is if no concern, they are slow, large, not especialy maneuverable and have no weapons for air to air combat as shown by their rules in the Apocalypse/ Imperial Armour books.
That a T-Hawk can bring down a Warhound titan is, given it's ability to equip a turbolaser, not suprising.
Destroying airfields and deploying exterminatus class weapons would require a victory in space ( assuming that the templars don't have any of those nifty servitor piloted killships ). A victory in space is unlikely given the low amount of grandcruiser/battlecruiser/battleship sized ships in our imagined Black Templar fleet. The majority of Spacemarine capital ships are Strikecruisers, which are nothing more than uparmoured light cruisers ( comparable to the Dauntless class ).
Unfortunately i know of no sources which can give us a reliable idea about the size of the Tau Fleet, their BFG suplement simply stated that their shipyards are powerfull and efficient, which isn't realy helpfull.
Still, given the advanced production capabilities as well as the relatively large timescale to build a fleet as well as the existence of Kroot (haha, okok, Warspheres suck ) and Demurg i see no reason why the Tau Fleet shouldn't outnumber ( or have at the very least equals numbers compared with ) the Black Templar Fleet.

The point about the communications lag between the actual marine attack and the notification of the tau admirality is a good one and needs some pondering. The problem might be somewhat extenuated by the relatively short distances involved and the...lets call it variable sublight speed of warhammer ships in fluff ( ranging from days of intrasystem travel to mere hours ) but i do not think that this alone is sufficient to counter it.

agnosto wrote:
I just read through the whole thread and never saw anyone even mention that the Tau Empire could conquer the IoM. It seems the main bone of contention here is exactly what amount of force it would take for the IoM to squash the Tau and their allies.

You didn't post at the last 5 threads regarding this, one Tau fan actually said that Tau Fire Cast outnumber the Imperial Guard...


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Kanluwen wrote:
I like the Tau. I just don't like people misconstruing things to say that it means that they're somehow a huge galactic threat. They're not. They're a threat to the Imperium of Man like sharks are a threat to the US Army.

You dot owned...

Dude, auto-fail due to wall o' text. I failed my WoT save and suffered a sprained scroll-finger.

The Damoclese Crusade was halted partially due to the powerful ground-based anti-ship batteries that the Tau had. (Tau Codex, forget what page and I'm too lazy to dig it out of the closet).

@Brother Coa,

Meh, I don't usually troll every Tau-hate thread; I had some time to kill.

im2randomghgh wrote:
Well what with the world's overpopulation and you guys already having 11x our population, a decrease in population isn't such a bad thing...not saying I am going to go around killing stuff, just saying there are two sides to it.

Not a bad thing if anyone around you don't want a part of your country ( Kosovo ) and when there are only 8.000.000 of us left.
Two sides? Let me live 1 year in Canada and you try living 1 year here...You will get mad in 2 months fist because of mad people, second because of how low the living standards are. And don't get me started about how our government is incompetent...

Brother Coa wrote: And don't get me started about how our government is incompetent...

What government isn't? Ours can't even finalize a budget...

agnosto wrote:
Meh, I don't usually troll every Tau-hate thread; I had some time to kill.

Good for you, usually I get tired after 15 minutes of this and just launch DoW and play against 3 Tau insane...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

agnosto wrote:

Brother Coa wrote: And don't get me started about how our government is incompetent...

What government isn't? Ours can't even finalize a budget...

Budget, we don't even have a budget and we are building the Europe's most expensive bridge now. And our fnalized our budget by increasing pensions for 3%, that's like increasing your pension for 60 cents...

im2randomghgh wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
So why did the Tau call in "significant reinforcements"?

The reinforcements arrived late.

@1hadHQ, They were evacuating citizens, because unlike the IoM, they CARE ABOUT CIVILIAN LOSSES.

If they HAD unleashed the V-bomb, they superior Tau fleet would have broken them over their knee.

And the Imperium doesn't? Here is an example of Imperium caring about civilians. This is taken form another website -

GW held a big campaign called Medusa V where the entire goal of the Imperium was to save the people on the planet. The correct choice would have been to launch virus bombs at the world, killing off a whole lot of Chaos Marines, Tau, Eldar, ect, which would not have been a bad trade off for several million civilians. However, the Imperium did the right thing and evacuated the people. Other, similar stories abound of Imperial forces fighting off the odds to save the common person. Just as many examples exist of the Guard officer who just sends in more men or the Space Marine who shells the refugee camp because there are orks in the grounds. Its really hard to label the Imperium as anything, as the Imperium is so diverse, its hard to pinpoint just what the Imperium is. Many times, the only common tie is Emperor-worship. It seems, that for every despotic hellhole, there are worlds that are not so bad to live on at all. To summarize, I think the Imperium does care about the people, but its huge bureaucracy and sheer size means that often, millions die because of a math error or something. Hence, the person sitting on a bug example. The Imperium is evil though sheer clumsiness. I often think of Stalin's Collective Farms. Many people died as the Soviet Union changed its farming sytem, but I don't think the Soviets meant to, nor wanted those people to die.

Another example -

Yet Leviathan continued to carve its bloody path through the Imperium. Perhaps Leviathan's main gain was the vital forge world of Gryphone IV, home of the War Griffons Titan legion. Kryptman knew he had to slow down the hive fleet's advance to buy time for Battlefleets Solar and Tempestus to muster. With grim finality, he ordered a cordon to be established. Every world within was to be evacuated and undergo immediate Exterminatus wherever possible. With one stark, callous decision, the Inquisitor had inflicted the Imperium's worst act of genocide upon on its own since the Horus Heresy. Kryptman was denounced as a radical and a traitor; when migrating Orks claimed a score of former human worlds, he was stripped of his title and thrown out of the Inquisition.

So, how many Space Marines would it take to destroy the Necron menace? Impossible? You know those Necron players are laughing at you guys, they have Gods after all. Not some dead pansy on a golden toilet but real gods!

Makes me think of Ghostbusters. heh

Kanluwen wrote:

Nerivant wrote:Dal'yth is, IIRC, the least militarized the first founding worlds. Sa'cea or Vior'la would be able to handle a lot worse.

And the Tau pulled a large amount of their entire Empire's defensive capabilities back to Dal'yth.

Sorry but this is completely unsupported. The Tau probably were not even sure Crusade was going to attack Dal'yth, and it was not reinforced during the battles.

Plus, the Tau military in 999.M41 is probably around 2 or 3 times stronger than it was during Damocles Gulf Crusade, particularly the fleet.

Kanluwen wrote:
This is a bit from the Imperial Munitorum Manual by Graham McNeill, considered 100% canon, that details the supply usage by a single Cadian regiment during the 13th Black Crusade. It was from a turning point during the fighting on Cadia, and was from the fighting lasting a single week to hold a sector of a Kasr.

During the 91st Cadian's recent combat operations during the 13th Black Crusade, lasting a week, they expended 400,000 Lasgun Power Packs, 120,000 ration packs, over 3 million gallons of fuel, 13,300 pints of Type O Negative, and expended enough ordnance to level a continent.

If you really think the Tau can stand that can of knock-down, dragout fighting--Tau players you're delusional.

Why is that supposed to be impressive? In Taros campaign, IoM brought ten regiments (including Cadians) and they were defeated handily.

At any rate, as I said before, the original question is pointless. If the Templars ever gathered at one place, the Inquisition would instantly have proof about them violating the Codex Astartes, and they would be demanded to break up. They are viewed as borderline renegade already.

Backfire wrote:
Why is that supposed to be impressive? In Taros campaign, IoM brought ten regiments (including Cadians) and they were defeated handily.

At any rate, as I said before, the original question is pointless. If the Templars ever gathered at one place, the Inquisition would instantly have proof about them violating the Codex Astartes, and they would be demanded to break up. They are viewed as borderline renegade already.

You know I didn't want to get involved into this debate but I have to dispute this. The Taros campaign is nothing but deus ex machina to let the Tau win. Bad luck after bad luck crapped all over the Imperium to let the Tau win nothing more.

Imperial armour all suck, even the nid one. All just fail.

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Why is that supposed to be impressive? In Taros campaign, IoM brought ten regiments (including Cadians) and they were defeated handily.

At any rate, as I said before, the original question is pointless. If the Templars ever gathered at one place, the Inquisition would instantly have proof about them violating the Codex Astartes, and they would be demanded to break up. They are viewed as borderline renegade already.

You know I didn't want to get involved into this debate but I have to dispute this. The Taros campaign is nothing but deus ex machina to let the Tau win. Bad luck after bad luck crapped all over the Imperium to let the Tau win nothing more.

Imperial armour all suck, even the nid one. All just fail.

They don't suck, but they're basically an excuse to see the Imperium lose.

Kanluwen wrote:

Corporal_Reznov wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Why is that supposed to be impressive? In Taros campaign, IoM brought ten regiments (including Cadians) and they were defeated handily.

At any rate, as I said before, the original question is pointless. If the Templars ever gathered at one place, the Inquisition would instantly have proof about them violating the Codex Astartes, and they would be demanded to break up. They are viewed as borderline renegade already.

You know I didn't want to get involved into this debate but I have to dispute this. The Taros campaign is nothing but deus ex machina to let the Tau win. Bad luck after bad luck crapped all over the Imperium to let the Tau win nothing more.

Imperial armour all suck, even the nid one. All just fail.

They don't suck, but they're basically an excuse to see the Imperium lose.

Thats why they suck, I don't mind the Imperial losing. But please do it in a manner that makes sense, in a manner that doesn't reek of plot armor and deus ex machina. For example a Vindicare assasin doesn't use its special ammunition despite knowing that its target is a cardinal thus has access to a Rosarius. Vindicares are supposed to be ultra-trained assasins; why all this stupid handicaps?

Corporal_Reznov wrote:
You know I didn't want to get involved into this debate but I have to dispute this. The Taros campaign is nothing but deus ex machina to let the Tau win. Bad luck after bad luck crapped all over the Imperium to let the Tau win nothing more.

Of course it is, but isn't EVERYTHING?

I mean, is there some special category of GW fluff which tells us the straight truth and is NOT meant to advance a certain viewpoint which promotes some character/unit/faction?

Backfire wrote:They are viewed as borderline renegade already.

No, no they're not, not in the slightest. The inquisition raises concern over their numbers but thats it, no renegade worries from them. There is not a single instance of disloyalty in the history of the chapter.

Source:

McNeil, Graham. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Black Templars. Nottingham: Games Workshop Ltd. 2005. 8.

The Black Templars borderline renegade? That's made my day.

Also, everyone see that at the end of my post?

That's a citation in modified Chicago manual of style format used by the University of otago, I can change it to MLA (used in most American schools) if it pleases you. The point is a lot of random facts get thrown about in these debates, so if you're going to tell me how many suits the tau have or how many worlds the black templars can conquer it had better be from a credible source (in this case the BRB, codexes, IA etc). You don't have to cite it like that but at least tell where you got the info from.

If you have been doing that then kudos to you.

There's no point in citing, in most cases people will just claim the author doesn't know what he was writing about.

There's really only two authors who that can be applied to (Henry Zou and C.S. Goto) though.

Kanluwen wrote:There's no point in citing, in most cases people will just claim the author doesn't know what he was writing about.

There's really only two authors who that can be applied to (Henry Zou and C.S. Goto) though.

then that brings up a whole new set of problems then, if we can all agree on our source material then all we're doing is this

Yep. Pretty much.

iproxtaco wrote:The Black Templars borderline renegade? That's made my day.

They ignore restrictions on Chapter size and organization, they fight only when and where they feel like it, they tolerate no orders/inquests/interference from legitimate Imperial authorities, they establish all sorts of outposts on worlds and come and go as they please...it's really not very far fetched. Just because they fight what they see as the enemies of the emperor doesn't necessarily mean they haven't functionally gone renegade.

the Codex Astartes is OPTIONAL for marine chapters.


the High Lords know it is impossable to enforce and so they don't.

Grey Templar wrote:the Codex Astartes is OPTIONAL for marine chapters.


the High Lords know it is impossable to enforce and so they don't.

They're not *supposed* to be optional, at least not certain things, Chapter size in particular, some just are able to get away with it. The High Lords also do enforce things when it can't be ignored anymore. The BT's haven't crossed that threshold and take care not to, but it could be suggested that they in fact are renegade or could be construed as such, they just haven't given anyone an excuse to come after them yet.

Vaktathi wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Codex Astartes is OPTIONAL for marine chapters.


the High Lords know it is impossable to enforce and so they don't.

They're not *supposed* to be optional, at least not certain things, Chapter size in particular, some just are able to get away with it. The High Lords also do enforce things when it can't be ignored anymore. The BT's haven't crossed that threshold and take care not to, but it could be suggested that they in fact are renegade or could be construed as such, they just haven't given anyone an excuse to come after them yet.

did you even read my post, there is no suspicion that they are renegade, period

speculation is all well and good but the codex full out refutes it

Brother Coa wrote:I do not hate Tau, I hate when people start talking about Tau like they are all children of Chuck Norris...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Actually, Brightsword invaded Nimbosa, killed every single living human on the planet, fortified it to the teeth, repelled the intitial invaders, then finally waged a ground war against Space Marines that resorted to playing an attrition battle, something they seldom do. After slaughtering a company of Space Marines and two regiments he was recalled for brutality and the IoM defeated the Tau.

BTs launching a campaign into Tau space unsupported would be eradicated down to the last in a couple of months. Tau have more Battlesuits than BTs have ground troops. The millions of FWs, Kroot, Vespid, Drones, etc would overwhelm a single Space Marine chapter. Even as legions they didn't launch campaigns that foolishly outnumbered.

Like this...

6,000 vs 1 million Fire Warriors. Not even going to include other races...

Given even the most basic math they would be overwhelmed. Sorry man, but without heavy naval and guard support they would be wiped.

EmilCrane wrote:

did you even read my post, there is no suspicion that they are renegade, period

speculation is all well and good but the codex full out refutes it

I wasn't responding to your post. The codex's viewpoint on that matter is also rather...subjective. If you'd read *my* posts, I said that they could be *considered* renegade, just without having done anything to really bring a nail down on their heads.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
6,000 vs 1 million Fire Warriors. Not even going to include other races...

Given even the most basic math they would be overwhelmed. Sorry man, but without heavy naval and guard support they would be wiped.

And why do you think that they would go alone?

They would bring at least 3 of their successor chapters , 30+ Regiments of Imperial Guard, several Titan Legions ( With Warlords and maybe 2 Imperators ), battle-fleet ( their chapter fleet is already very much powerful.... ) and several chapters ( Ultramarines, Novamarines, Raptors...) would gladly send them support, as local Governors, Adaptus Mechanicus would send Skitarii and Tech priests to study Tau tech...

In this crusade ( if ever happened ) BT would have no shortage of allies. It would be a brutal fight, but in the end Tau would lose. There is no way anything can stand against a full Imperial crusade ( nothing has in the past ).

EmilCrane wrote:
No, no they're not, not in the slightest. The inquisition raises concern over their numbers but thats it, no renegade worries from them. There is not a single instance of disloyalty in the history of the chapter.

Source:

McNeil, Graham. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Black Templars. Nottingham: Games Workshop Ltd. 2005. 8.

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Tempars are in the extreme end of independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element."

Codex: Black Templars, pg. 9

Backfire wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
No, no they're not, not in the slightest. The inquisition raises concern over their numbers but thats it, no renegade worries from them. There is not a single instance of disloyalty in the history of the chapter.

Source:

McNeil, Graham. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Black Templars. Nottingham: Games Workshop Ltd. 2005. 8.

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Tempars are in the extreme end of independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element."

Codex: Black Templars, pg. 9

Rouge element=/=renegade.



Oh, and the Black Templars Codex states that the Black Templars have dozens of battle-barges. That's at least 24 battle-barges, one of them being what could very well be the largest, most powerful ship in the Imperium, bar the Phalanx (curse you Imperial Fists!).

Backfire wrote:

EmilCrane wrote:
No, no they're not, not in the slightest. The inquisition raises concern over their numbers but thats it, no renegade worries from them. There is not a single instance of disloyalty in the history of the chapter.

Source:

McNeil, Graham. Warhammer 40,000 Codex: Black Templars. Nottingham: Games Workshop Ltd. 2005. 8.

"Although utterly loyal to the Emperor, the Black Tempars are in the extreme end of independence from Imperial authorities, verging on a rogue element."

Codex: Black Templars, pg. 9

Rogue means they do their own thing.


the BTs follow their own agenda about how to serve mankind.


the BTs are STILL fighting the Great Crusade. for them it never ended, they will not rest untill the Galaxy is at the Emperor's feet.

a more loyal chapter you could not find.

NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda. The Black Templars are the most fanatically loyal chapter in the Imperium.

iproxtaco wrote:NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda.

Not necessarily. Knights of Blood keep fighting Imperium's enemies and probably consider themselves loyalists, even though they have been declared renegade. BT are supremely loyal to the Emperor, but it does not mean they are necessarily loyal to all Imperial authorities.

Earlier in the thread (i am NOT about to go find it) someone compared a thunderhawk to a manta...just no. Mantas are 6x bigger, and have a $h1tl0@d of weapons: sixteen Long-Barrelled Burst Cannon, six Long-Barrelled Ion Cannon, two Heavy Rail Guns, Missile Pods and battery of Seeker Missiles as well as a Networked Markerlight turret.

It would literally take 1 or 2 turns to destroy a mid-sized army (~1500pts)

iproxtaco wrote:NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda. The Black Templars are the most fanatically loyal chapter in the Imperium.

From Dictionary.com: Rogue: no longer obedient, belonging, or accepted and hence not controllable or answerable; deviating, renegade

They do in fact pursue their own dogmatic, fanatical agenda without any input from the organizations that actuall run and operate the Imperium or the greater Imperial military forces. Sounds pretty renegade to me. Renegade need not mean they are actively working against the Imperium, but at the same time it doesn't mean they are working in its best interests, but rather what they see as their duty, which is not necessarily the same thing.

Grey Templar wrote:
Rogue means they do their own thing.

See above.

the BTs follow their own agenda about how to serve mankind.


the BTs are STILL fighting the Great Crusade. for them it never ended, they will not rest untill the Galaxy is at the Emperor's feet.

a more loyal chapter you could not find.

Key phrase, *their own agenda*. That may not be in the best interests of the greater Imperium, but rather their interpretation of 10,000 year old dictates. It's very difficult to believe that the Black Templars would not wage war against Imperial authorities if they thought it in their Chapter's interest (be it recruitment worlds, insults to their honor, demands for assistance, supplies, etc), regardless of whether or nor it's best for the Imperium as a whole. Lufgt Huron followed his own agenda about how to serve mankind. Look how that turned out

The BT's are loyal to *their* interpretation of their duty to the Emperor, nobody will deny that. It doesn't necessarily mean they are loyal to the Imperium or it's greater well being.

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:NO ONE considers the Black Templars renegade. Renegade implies they have seceded from the Imperium and are no longer loyal to the Emperor or they are perusing their own agenda. The Black Templars are the most fanatically loyal chapter in the Imperium.

From Dictionary.com: Rogue: no longer obedient, belonging, or accepted and hence not controllable or answerable; deviating, renegade

Essentially, they are like the Soul Drinkers in that they are renegade (and 2nd founding IF), the only difference being that SD are KoS for the IoM

There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade. Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

From Lexicanum -

Excommunicate Traitoris is the term used in reference to Space Marine Legions or Chapters that have betrayed the Imperium through heresy, mutation or any other act the Imperium deems unforgivable. Several forces have been deemed Excommunicate, such as the Traitor Legions, the Flame Falcons, the Relictors and the Soul Drinkers. They are also known as Renegade chapters.

The Black Templars do not fit this description, are not present on a list of Renegade Chapters, and are not considered to be Renegade in cannon.


As far as the Soul Drinkers are concerned, they were practically forced into becoming renegade. They despise the Imperium as a system of Government, and are still loyal to the Emperor as a separate figure.

iproxtaco wrote:There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade. Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

In the Imperium, a renegade chapter is considered to no longer be loyal to the Emperor and The Imperium. The Black Templars are fanatically loyal, ergo, they aren't renegade in the Imperiums eyes.

...even though most non-chaos renegades are loyal to the Emperor, they either are disloyal to the IoM (not the big E though, he's just awesome) or have offended someone. (Soul Drinkers fall into both categories)

How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

iproxtaco wrote:There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade.

Except their own codex considered them practically "rogue" as pointed out earlier, page 9 of the codex. Rogue is synonymous with renegade. Nobody is arguing that they aren't loyal to their interpretation of their duty to the Emperor. Their interpretation of their duty to the emperor and the Imperium are two different things.

Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

Unknown to the inquisition doesn't mean that it wouldn't be subject to sanction if found out and they do have suscpisions. It also doesn't mean that the BT's should be doing it.

From Lexicanum -

Excommunicate Traitoris is the term used in reference to Space Marine Legions or Chapters that have betrayed the Imperium through heresy, mutation or any other act the Imperium deems unforgivable. Several forces have been deemed Excommunicate, such as the Traitor Legions, the Flame Falcons, the Relictors and the Soul Drinkers. They are also known as Renegade chapters.

The Black Templars do not fit this description, are not present on a list of Renegade Chapters, and are not considered to be Renegade in cannon.

Nobody is saying they are outright traitors actively working against the Imperium, which is what Excommunicate Traitoris applies to. However just because they aren't "Excommunicate Traitoris" doesn't mean they aren't renegade. Neither was Lufgt Huron until long after he had seceded his realm.

Vaktathi wrote:


The BT's are loyal to *their* interpretation of their duty to the Emperor, nobody will deny that. It doesn't necessarily mean they are loyal to the Imperium or it's greater well being.

The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor. The BT answer first and foremost to the Emperor, like every space marine did pre-heresy. Their interpretation may be 1 millenia old, still its not as twisted as the imperial cause was from the imperial truth to the
actual way the Imperium operates. Therefore loyality to the Emperor = loyality to the Imperium.
To question the Emperor never turned out well for those who did.

The BT are loyal to the Imperiums well beeing, as seen in the apostasy.
They actively hunt down threats to the Imperium.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

Or, you could stop over-exaggerating about Tau hate, troll.

Seems that in every 'Tau hate thread' you've ignored facts quoted by others that are negative about the Tau.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:There's no need to school people on the definition of renegade, not that the true dictionary meaning applies to the Imperium. Regardless of the meaning behind the word, no person in the Imperium that we have a quote or source from considers the Black Templars as anywhere near Renegade.

Except their own codex considered them practically "rogue" as pointed out earlier, page 9 of the codex. Rogue is synonymous with renegade. Nobody is arguing that they aren't loyal to their interpretation of their duty to the Emperor. Their interpretation of their duty to the emperor and the Imperium are two different things.

Their true numbers are unknown to the Inquisition and their Geneseed is very stable.

Unknown to the inquisition doesn't mean that it wouldn't be subject to sanction if found out and they do have suscpisions. It also doesn't mean that the BT's should be doing it.

From Lexicanum -

Excommunicate Traitoris is the term used in reference to Space Marine Legions or Chapters that have betrayed the Imperium through heresy, mutation or any other act the Imperium deems unforgivable. Several forces have been deemed Excommunicate, such as the Traitor Legions, the Flame Falcons, the Relictors and the Soul Drinkers. They are also known as Renegade chapters.

The Black Templars do not fit this description, are not present on a list of Renegade Chapters, and are not considered to be Renegade in cannon.

Nobody is saying they are outright traitors actively working against the Imperium, which is what Excommunicate Traitoris applies to. However just because they aren't "Excommunicate Traitoris" doesn't mean they aren't renegade. Neither was Lufgt Huron until long after he had seceded his realm.

A renegade Chapter has been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Have the Black Templars been declared this? No. Therefore, not renegade.

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

Okay, the Black Templars, a space based chapter, fly away from the Tyranids. Case closed.

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

If youre able to quote GW on this, start one and provide that reference.

But the chance been missed, no new Tyranid dex in sight.....

Nerivant wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

Okay, the Black Templars, a space based chapter, fly away from the Tyranids. Case closed.

Discussion ends, case closed. Next thread?

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

It very much can be. The BT's are loyal to what they *believe* are the Emperor's wishes. The BT's as a chapter didn't exist when the Emperor was around.

The BT answer first and foremost to the Emperor, like every space marine did pre-heresy. Their interpretation may be 1 millenia old, still its not as twisted as the imperial cause was from the imperial truth to the
actual way the Imperium operates.

While perhaps true that it's not as twisted as the current Imperial Creed, it doesn't mean that they are loyal specifically to the Imperium. Though lets be honest, the BT's aren't much different. They despise and hate psykers in all forms, which the Emperor had eventually planned to elevate all of humanity to (and something they would likely execute someone for suggesting).

Therefore loyality to the Emperor = loyality to the Imperium.

Again, not necessarily true. If the Templars believe the existence of a particular planet that produces more Psykers than normal is an abomination and must be purged, they will do so, even if the planet had little or no history of other deviancy, and the Imperium may lose out on a valuable source of Astropaths/Battle Psykers/Interrogators/Inquisitors/Astronominican Food.

To question the Emperor never turned out well for those who did.

Nobody is saying they are questioning the Emperor directly. However what the Imperium sees as best for it and what the BT's see as the wishes of the Emperor may not be the same thing.

They actively hunt down threats to the Imperium.

They hunt down what they decide are threats when they want where they want.

iproxtaco wrote:A renegade Chapter has been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Have the Black Templars been declared this? No. Therefore, not renegade.

The Astral Claws were decidedly renegade. They weren't declared Excommunicate Traitoris until well after they had seceded and began open warfare agains the Imperium. Not every Renegade SM force is always declared Excommunicate Traitoris either, and especially not right away.

Renegade also doesn't mean they are outright fighting against the Imperium, again, it means they do whatever they want and answer to nobody, regardless of whether its really in the best interests of the Imperium or simply of their particular dogma.

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

Then why some other Loyalist chapters have taken up arms against Imperial forces? Space Wolves once engaged in open war against Ecclesiarchy. Dark Angels have disturbing habit of making their allies 'disappear' if they stumble upon something sensitive. Etc.

Whole point was that Black Templars may be zealous, but they aren't so stupid to openly reveal full extent of their numbers and assets and open themselves to investigation.

Backfire wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

Then why some other Loyalist chapters have taken up arms against Imperial forces? Space Wolves once engaged in open war against Ecclesiarchy. Dark Angels have disturbing habit of making their allies 'disappear' if they stumble upon something sensitive. Etc.

Whole point was that Black Templars may be zealous, but they aren't so stupid to openly reveal full extent of their numbers and assets and open themselves to investigation.

Exactly. If the Inquisition had solid information on their numbers and brought them to account for it (as they found out that SM's in large numbers was a bad idea and should be avoided) and demanded that they split, they'd likely end up fighting the Inquisition and ultimately likely other Space Marines rather than split. It just hasn't happened yet.

Vaktathi wrote: It very much can be. The BT's are loyal to what they *believe* are the Emperor's wishes. The BT's as a chapter didn't exist when the Emperor was around.

Believe? their first High marshal was the first captain of a space marine legion, who walked beside the Emperor personally. Dorn himself
founded the BT at second founding, and its unlikely Gulliman liked the deviation of his codex but had to give in. Maybe the size of the BT comes from a trade-off. The first Black Templars were already IF-space marines when the Emperor was able to voice his wishes.
No need to believe. When did the High lords have their last audience with the Emperor?

Vaktathi wrote:Though lets be honest, the BT's aren't much different. They despise and hate psykers in all forms, which the Emperor had eventually planned to elevate all of humanity to (and something they would likely execute someone for suggesting).

And still accept navigators, astropaths, Grey Knights,.......

Vaktathi wrote: If the Templars believe the existence of a particular planet that produces more Psykers than normal is an abomination and must be purged, they will do so, even if the planet had little or no history of other deviancy, and the Imperium may lose out on a valuable source of Astropaths/Battle Psykers/Interrogators/Inquisitors/Astronominican Food.

Maybe the Grey knights get faster there?

Vaktathi wrote: However what the Imperium sees as best for it and what the BT's see as the wishes of the Emperor may not be the same thing.

The question is, who is the Imperium?
The High lords? the organizations who sent their representatives to form the High lords? The people?

Until you know the wishes of all of these, and those have to be not to contradictionary, you cannot claim the BT aren't caring for the best of the IoM. Because you need to know what is the best for the IoM and how the BT see the wishes of the Emperor to compare them and find out if there is a difference.
Are you able to define what is the best for the imperium?

Vaktathi wrote:They hunt down what they decide are threats when they want where they want.

Like any other chapter.
And any in dependent organization of the IoM.

Vaktathi wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:A renegade Chapter has been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Have the Black Templars been declared this? No. Therefore, not renegade.

The Astral Claws were decidedly renegade. They weren't declared Excommunicate Traitoris until well after they had seceded and began open warfare agains the Imperium. Not every Renegade SM force is always declared Excommunicate Traitoris either, and especially not right away.

Renegade also doesn't mean they are outright fighting against the Imperium, again, it means they do whatever they want and answer to nobody, regardless of whether its really in the best interests of the Imperium or simply of their particular dogma.

To be listed as Renegade, a chapter has to be declared Excommunicate Traitoris. The Black Templars have not been declared as such, and are not even close. Not being declared Excommunicate for a while is more down to bureaucratic lag and the fact that fighting or destroying the chapter is more important than any 'official' label. If a chapter is openly attacking the Imperium then it's fairly obvious they are traitors.
If a chapter is loyal to the original values of The Emperors and the man himself as a singular figure, and not loyal to the Imperium, they are traitors to humanity. The Black Templars are quite clearly still loyal in that respect, although I do agree that their numbers and extreme zealotry do make them radical.

iproxtaco wrote:
To be listed as Renegade, a chapter has to be declared Excommunicate Traitoris.

I'm not saying they are officially declared renegade, rather that they could be considered as such if anyone chose to force the issue over several items of note.

The Black Templars have not been declared as such, and are not even close. Not being declared Excommunicate for a while is more down to bureaucratic lag and the fact that fighting or destroying the chapter is more important than any 'official' label. If a chapter is openly attacking the Imperium then it's fairly obvious they are traitors.

Not all chapters that have done this have been declared Excommunicate Traitoris. Most of the Badab War chapters never were despite waging open war against Imperial institutions and other Marine chapters, and only the Astral Claws were after they went beyond simply waging war and actually flat out renounced their oaths and ties with the Emperor.

1hadhq wrote:Believe? their first High marshal was the first captain of a space marine legion, who walked beside the Emperor personally. Dorn himself
founded the BT at second founding, and its unlikely Gulliman liked the deviation of his codex but had to give in. Maybe the size of the BT comes from a trade-off. The first Black Templars were already IF-space marines when the Emperor was able to voice his wishes.
No need to believe.

And ten thousand years down the line, what have they to go on but legend and myth?

When did the High lords have their last audience with the Emperor?

When did the last Black Templar do so? For that matter, the High Lords are the rightful heirs to the Emperor's political and military power over the Imperium in the aftermath of the Heresy as appointed by the Primarch and regent Rogal Dorn. They are the legitimate ultimate authority on all Imperial matters short of the Emperor himself (who isn't doing much these days)

And still accept navigators, astropaths, Grey Knights,.......

Only grudgingly because the literally can't operate otherwise, and the psykers in their service must be "repentant of the curse of pyschic powers". They won't fight alongside psykers either.

Maybe the Grey knights get faster there?

?

The question is, who is the Imperium?
The High lords? the organizations who sent their representatives to form the High lords? The people?

The High Lords are the ulitmate legitimate political and military authority of the Imperium, as extensions and representatives of the major organizations that make up and operate the Imperium. Theirs is the ultimate authority to decide what is best.

Like any other chapter.
And any in dependent organization of the IoM.

To a degree. Most chapters have specific areas that they are responsible for and are duty bound to respond to any major military need within those areas if requested. The Templars just go wherever they feel like it and have no duty beyond what they decide is their duty to respond to.

To all those debating the Black Templars being renegade, I have started a new thread in discussions to debate the point, and to put this thread back on topic.

Vaktathi wrote:

Backfire wrote:

1hadhq wrote:
The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor.

Then why some other Loyalist chapters have taken up arms against Imperial forces? Space Wolves once engaged in open war against Ecclesiarchy. Dark Angels have disturbing habit of making their allies 'disappear' if they stumble upon something sensitive. Etc.

Whole point was that Black Templars may be zealous, but they aren't so stupid to openly reveal full extent of their numbers and assets and open themselves to investigation.

Exactly. If the Inquisition had solid information on their numbers and brought them to account for it (as they found out that SM's in large numbers was a bad idea and should be avoided) and demanded that they split, they'd likely end up fighting the Inquisition and ultimately likely other Space Marines rather than split. It just hasn't happened yet.

Why you even talking about this? BT are not renegades - they just give a damn about Codex Astartes and the Inquisition all together.
Inquisition knows that and they watch them, but I think that they would never act against BT - they would have more to lose then to gain.

1hadhq wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:


The BT's are loyal to *their* interpretation of their duty to the Emperor, nobody will deny that. It doesn't necessarily mean they are loyal to the Imperium or it's greater well being.

The Imperium cannot be separated from the Emperor. The BT answer first and foremost to the Emperor, like every space marine did pre-heresy. Their interpretation may be 1 millenia old, still its not as twisted as the imperial cause was from the imperial truth to the
actual way the Imperium operates. Therefore loyality to the Emperor = loyality to the Imperium.
To question the Emperor never turned out well for those who did.

The BT are loyal to the Imperiums well beeing, as seen in the apostasy.
They actively hunt down threats to the Imperium.

NO, the Imperium is run by the high lords, and the big E rules in name alone. To be against the Imperium does not mean you are against the Emperor, and vice versa. The Soul Drinkers are as pure as it gets, and as loyal to the emperor as a custode, but they are declared traitors by the IoM, and view it as corrupt.

Or the Alpha Legion. Loyal to the Emperor, but not the IoM. The only difference being that the Alpha Legion is Chaos.

Kroothawk wrote:How about a thread fantasizing about the Black Templer chapter completely extinguished and maimed by a Tyranid fleet. Not out of hate of course, just to check facts

Then make a new thread about that topic every 4 weeks, just to check the facts again

Sure, I'll bite!

Fly in battle-barge.
Detonate warp-engines.
????
PROFIT!

Dominus Astra FTW

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Sure, I'll bite!

Fly in battle-barge.
Detonate warp-engines.
????
PROFIT!

Dominus Astra FTW

All praise the martyrs from Astra...
Long they live in glory...

I've actually read through the whole thread, including the rather silly references to Cuba and sharks.

Here's a different take on the situation: if the IoM gathered sufficient forces to ensure victory over the Tau, how many IoM worlds elsewhere would the IoM lose to other threats?

Or, if you'd like a different way of asking the question: could the IoM even afford to wipe the Tau out?

Tau, as such, aren't a very large threat. They are comparatively small and lack warp travel, and as such spread rather slowly. They also tend not to bring overwhelming forces to conquer worlds where they aren't welcome or commit equivalent of exterminatus, and as such by large can be afforded to live.
Their biggest threat, I'd imagine, is subjugating IoM worlds into switching sides.
Essentially, they can be contained without a great cost of resources.

Mahtamori wrote:
Tau, as such, aren't a very large threat. They are comparatively small and lack warp travel, and as such spread rather slowly. They also tend not to bring overwhelming forces to conquer worlds where they aren't welcome or commit equivalent of exterminatus, and as such by large can be afforded to live.
Their biggest threat, I'd imagine, is subjugating IoM worlds into switching sides.
Essentially, they can be contained without a great cost of resources.

That's not a good strategy either...
If we contain them, they will only go more advanced than they already are.
And since when containment don't require massive amount of forces?

Mahtamori wrote: They also tend not to bring overwhelming forces to conquer worlds where they aren't welcome or commit equivalent of exterminatus, and as such by large can be afforded to live.

Afforded to live? Black Templars, bless your swords and bolters, The Great Crusade will never end. Suffer not the Alien to Live! For The Emperor!

In all seriousnees, it's the Black Templars so resources or 'the big picture' don't usually come into it.

TBH if the Templars actually somehow manage to gather all their forces at one place without their previous deployments missing them the Tau wouldn't stand a chance. The main issue is that the Tau don't have good enough inter-system communications (assuming that what has been said in this thread is true), which means that the massive Templar fleet would annihilate anything in their path before they're able to call in reinforcements. When the Tau finally managed to mount a counter-offensive, they will already be massively weakened.



And yes, I'm biased (just look at my Avatar ) but I don't care. Shoot me.

another thing to consider is that Marine chapters, as a rule, don't take orders from the Inquisition or the High Lords.

the High Lords COULD order a marine chapter about, but they have better things to do.

the Inquisition's authority, in practice, doesn't extend to Space Marine chapters. on the books, its anyone's guess as they seem to be of the same level of authority with the Inquisition just being the one that actually uses its authority and as such has the illusion of greater power.


so, what the BTs do can't really be considered renegade because they are doing what other marine chapters do. just they do it on a larger scale.

People I have an idea....

Why don't we send Angry Marines with Commissar FuckLaw instead of BT?

What do you say?

im2randomghgh wrote:

NO, the Imperium is run by the high lords, and the big E rules in name alone. To be against the Imperium does not mean you are against the Emperor, and vice versa. The Soul Drinkers are as pure as it gets, and as loyal to the emperor as a custode, but they are declared traitors by the IoM, and view it as corrupt.

Or the Alpha Legion. Loyal to the Emperor, but not the IoM. The only difference being that the Alpha Legion is Chaos.

Seriously?

Sould drinkers and purity =
Alpha legion = prove it.

The high lords rule in HIS name, without an Emperor they got nothing to say.
And last time a heretic like vandire tried to usurp the IoM, the BT opposed this.
So if the high lords aren't serving as they should, they will be replaced.

But why should the BT care for this nonsense of "independent = renegade". ?
The ad mech would be interested in a crusade, just scientifically of course.
The Inquisition will protect the Tau if they serve a purpose against nids, if they don't or this expired, you see the Inquisiton on the front of that crusade and sanctioning it. Remember it was Kryptman who canceled the DGC, but hes no longer in charge.

Grey Templar wrote:another thing to consider is that Marine chapters, as a rule, don't take orders from the Inquisition or the High Lords.

the High Lords COULD order a marine chapter about, but they have better things to do.

the Inquisition's authority, in practice, doesn't extend to Space Marine chapters. on the books, its anyone's guess as they seem to be of the same level of authority with the Inquisition just being the one that actually uses its authority and as such has the illusion of greater power.


so, what the BTs do can't really be considered renegade because they are doing what other marine chapters do. just they do it on a larger scale.

Nothing in the entire IoM is immune to the Inquisition barring the High Lords. Nothing. Not AdMech. Not Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother Coa wrote:People I have an idea....

Why don't we send Angry Marines with Commissar FuckLaw instead of BT?

What do you say?

The Tau would die in seconds. Angry marines destroy EVERYTHING. I AM SO fething ANGRY!!!! ALL THE TIME!!!!!

O LOOK, IT'S THE BANNER OF feth YOU! BONUS ATTACKS FOR ALL!

im2randomghgh wrote:
Nothing in the entire IoM is immune to the Inquisition barring the High Lords. Nothing. Not AdMech. Not Marines.

The Custodes are, aren't they? I'd imagine that they'd laugh at an Inquisitor "ordering" them around and then shoo them away out the nearest secret door or something.

1hadhq wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:

NO, the Imperium is run by the high lords, and the big E rules in name alone. To be against the Imperium does not mean you are against the Emperor, and vice versa. The Soul Drinkers are as pure as it gets, and as loyal to the emperor as a custode, but they are declared traitors by the IoM, and view it as corrupt.

Or the Alpha Legion. Loyal to the Emperor, but not the IoM. The only difference being that the Alpha Legion is Chaos.

Seriously?

Sould drinkers and purity =
Alpha legion = prove it.

The Soul Drinkers HAVE suffered mutations, but are as loyal (if not more so) than most chapters are to the emperor. The only reason they are Excommunicate Tratoris is that the AdMech tried to steal a chapter relic, and they responded with force.

...Pretty easy, their battle-cry is FOR THE EMPEROR! and the reason they turned traitor was because they were shown a vision in which Horus killed the Emperor and was so remorseful that he launched a crusade that destroyed Chaos. They are loyal to the Emperor and their primarch. No one else...

Also, Lysander.

Also, this subject is completely opinion, but I feel that if instead of 6000 BT it was 5000 BT+1000 IF than it would be auto-win.

Reason #1-Lysander
Reason #2-Dey is good at siege
Reason #3-The Phalanx
Reason #4-the IF rock at duels
Reason #5-Yellow
Reason #6-PRUSSIANS IN SPACE




Automatically Appended Next Post:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

im2randomghgh wrote:
Nothing in the entire IoM is immune to the Inquisition barring the High Lords. Nothing. Not AdMech. Not Marines.

The Custodes are, aren't they? I'd imagine that they'd laugh at an Inquisitor "ordering" them around and then shoo them away out the nearest secret door or something.

The point is moot, since they are 100% immune to corruption and are to guard the Emperor and never leave to Terra by order of the Emperor, so they can't be moved elsewhere, wouldn't be moved elsewhere, and would never, ever face corruption.

I still think it would be epic though-the march of the Custodes. 10,000 near-primarch powerful being marching into the eye, coming back with khorne's head on a platter


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, the reason they stopped making custodes was that it was too time-consuming, but I wonder why they haven't made any since the HH? They've had plenty of time...

This will happen as soon as the Tau insult a black templar, this is what happened to the last person who did so.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:TBH if the Templars actually somehow manage to gather all their forces at one place without their previous deployments missing them the Tau wouldn't stand a chance. The main issue is that the Tau don't have good enough inter-system communications (assuming that what has been said in this thread is true), which means that the massive Templar fleet would annihilate anything in their path before they're able to call in reinforcements. When the Tau finally managed to mount a counter-offensive, they will already be massively weakened.



And yes, I'm biased (just look at my Avatar ) but I don't care. Shoot me.

Again, 6000 troops and a couple dozen starships designed for orbital assault are going to prevail over even several billion trained Tau soldiers (i.e. each Space Marine is going to have to match a million or more Fire Warriors... ) with advanced weaponry and a navy of hundreds of vessels designed for ship to ship combat? that's a wee bit silly.

Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:TBH if the Templars actually somehow manage to gather all their forces at one place without their previous deployments missing them the Tau wouldn't stand a chance. The main issue is that the Tau don't have good enough inter-system communications (assuming that what has been said in this thread is true), which means that the massive Templar fleet would annihilate anything in their path before they're able to call in reinforcements. When the Tau finally managed to mount a counter-offensive, they will already be massively weakened.



And yes, I'm biased (just look at my Avatar ) but I don't care. Shoot me.

Again, 6000 troops and a couple dozen starships designed for orbital assault are going to prevail over even several billion trained Tau soldiers (i.e. each Space Marine is going to have to match a million or more Fire Warriors... ) with advanced weaponry and a navy of hundreds of vessels designed for ship to ship combat? that's a wee bit silly.

QFT

Hmm... The first problem is the nature of the Damocles Gulf itself. Imperial ship losses to hazards would be, given what little we know, approx 15% of the total ships sent due to warp events.

Also, scattering appears to be a serious issue exiting the warp in the gulf, meaning that depending on if they encounter tau ships on returning to the Materium, they may suffer additional looses due to being destroyed in detail before they can reform into a fleet.

A BT only force would be dead before it could land someplace. Remember that current SM ships are glorified troop transports, as opposed to the giant fleets they commanded during the Great Crusade. The Kor'vattra would tear them apart.


Even with full Imperial support, it would be easier to cleanse the Eye of Terror. Literally. The astrogeography of the gulf would force the Imperium to fight across a very narrow front, unable to bring it's full power to bare. It would turn into a meat grinder in the vein of Thermopylae. Particularly since the Tau have superior weaponry for the majority of their forces.

BaronIveagh wrote:Hmm... The first problem is the nature of the Damocles Gulf itself. Imperial ship losses to hazards would be, given what little we know, approx 15% of the total ships sent due to warp events.

Also, scattering appears to be a serious issue exiting the warp in the gulf, meaning that depending on if they encounter tau ships on returning to the Materium, they may suffer additional looses due to being destroyed in detail before they can reform into a fleet.

A BT only force would be dead before it could land someplace. Remember that current SM ships are glorified troop transports, as opposed to the giant fleets they commanded during the Great Crusade. The Kor'vattra would tear them apart.


Even with full Imperial support, it would be easier to cleanse the Eye of Terror. Literally. The astrogeography of the gulf would force the Imperium to fight across a very narrow front, unable to bring it's full power to bare. It would turn into a meat grinder in the vein of Thermopylae. Particularly since the Tau have superior weaponry for the majority of their forces.

QFT

Unless the IF lent them the Phalanx, which alone would be able to hold a mid-sized kor'vattra on more or less even grounds.

It is a small moon, filled with guns, and 1,000 SMs.

Basically the Death Star.


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The only thing I can see being a one-on-one challenge to the phalanx is a blackstone fortress, and even then terms would be even enough.

im2randomghgh wrote:

QFT

Unless the IF lent them the Phalanx, which alone would be able to hold a mid-sized kor'vattra on more or less even grounds.

It is a small moon, filled with guns, and 1,000 SMs.

Basically the Death Star.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only thing I can see being a one-on-one challenge to the phalanx is a blackstone fortress, and even then terms would be even enough.

Given the Tau's proclivities for attack craft, the Phalanx would be in trouble (remember that Tau battleships are primarily carriers. Yamato, anyone?). Unlike most Fleets in 40k, they don't 'do' line of battle. And blackstones fall easy enough. Activated or not. (On pairs or trios or not, just avoid the beam)

Vaktathi wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:TBH if the Templars actually somehow manage to gather all their forces at one place without their previous deployments missing them the Tau wouldn't stand a chance. The main issue is that the Tau don't have good enough inter-system communications (assuming that what has been said in this thread is true), which means that the massive Templar fleet would annihilate anything in their path before they're able to call in reinforcements. When the Tau finally managed to mount a counter-offensive, they will already be massively weakened.



And yes, I'm biased (just look at my Avatar ) but I don't care. Shoot me.

Again, 6000 troops and a couple dozen starships designed for orbital assault are going to prevail over even several billion trained Tau soldiers (i.e. each Space Marine is going to have to match a million or more Fire Warriors... ) with advanced weaponry and a navy of hundreds of vessels designed for ship to ship combat? that's a wee bit silly.

thats the problem,

the Tau don't HAVE billions and billions of troops.

the 3rd sphere expansion had 1 million Fire Caste Warriors at its heart. that isn't alot.

the Tau only have a few dozen planets and only about half are fully populated, meaning their population couldn't be more then 10-20 billion.

the Fire Caste isn't the most numerous(thats the Earth Caste) so we can only put the number of Tau Fire Caste at somewhere in the 2-5 billion range.

once casualities begin to pile up the Tau will fall.


the Tau are insignificant and idealistic parasites in a galaxy that punishes such weakness with extinction. the timing is unknown, but their fate is certain. to be nothing more then a chapter in Imperial History books and stuffed museum specimens kept behind stasis fields.

Grey Templar wrote:

thats the problem,

the Tau don't HAVE billions and billions of troops.

the 3rd sphere expansion had 1 million Fire Caste Warriors at its heart. that isn't alot.

the Tau only have a few dozen planets and only about half are fully populated, meaning their population couldn't be more then 10-20 billion.

the Fire Caste isn't the most numerous(thats the Earth Caste) so we can only put the number of Tau Fire Caste at somewhere in the 2-5 billion range.

once casualities begin to pile up the Tau will fall.


the Tau are insignificant and idealistic parasites in a galaxy that punishes such weakness with extinction. the timing is unknown, but their fate is certain. to be nothing more then a chapter in Imperial History books and stuffed museum specimens kept behind stasis fields.

Again, you forget that you have to deliver those ground troops. If they're destroyed en route, it doesn't matter if they outnumber the Tau by billions to one. And the Gulf is an idea shooting gallery for defenders, since, due to the differences between Tau and In warp drives, they can move through the area freely, while IN cannot.

Further, IN DOES NOT outnumber the Tau in space the same way they do on the ground. IG may have billions of guardsmen, but an entire sector of Imperial Space is lucky to have five battleships with maybe one hundred warships grand total. This means that, as far as battleships go, the Tau outnumber the combined fleets of the Ultima Segmentum, since their primary battleship is also their primary exploration vessel and primary trade ship, just fitted differently. And since they're modular, thsi means that with very little effort, they can hold the Gulf indefinitely.

BaronIveagh wrote:
Again, you forget that you have to deliver those ground troops. If they're destroyed en route, it doesn't matter if they outnumber the Tau by billions to one. And the Gulf is an idea shooting gallery for defenders, since, due to the differences between Tau and In warp drives, they can move through the area freely, while IN cannot.

Further, IN DOES NOT outnumber the Tau in space the same way they do on the ground. IG may have billions of guardsmen, but an entire sector of Imperial Space is lucky to have five battleships with maybe one hundred warships grand total. This means that, as far as battleships go, the Tau outnumber the combined fleets of the Ultima Segmentum, since their primary battleship is also their primary exploration vessel and primary trade ship, just fitted differently. And since they're modular, thsi means that with very little effort, they can hold the Gulf indefinitely.

What? Source of this claims. I have hear everything now. Not only that Tau Fire Cast outnumber IG, their fleet is biiger than the Imperial one....
I have read on Lexicanum that for every lost Imperial battle ship 8 more are already stand to replace him. Further more, how can Tau have bigger fleet than entire Ultima? And further more Ultima Segmentum - biggest of all? Tau DO not outnumber Imperial when it comes to ships ( well, at least they outnumber them at Taros and Nimbosa ), if That kind of Crusade happened at least several thousand ships will be send, along with several hundred battleships.... I know that because that's standard Imperial space force when it comes to crusade ( see Badab War or Black Crusade for reference ), they will send even less to fight Tau...

Battlefleet Gothic: Armada, page 100

Because the Explorer, the basic Tau battleship, is also their basic every other ship. Every freighter, hauler, etc is all the same class. And since it's modular, any of them can be switched over to 'battleship'. It proved so successful that they really never considered building anything else until Ork terrorships swarmed a few under due to their slow speed, so now they also build smaller ships to protect it.

And, the loss of even one battleship can be crippling to an IN fleet. The loss of the Tempest's Child helped extended the Angevin Crusade by decades.

Taros was an Experimental fleet that the Tau were testing against IN, according to the section on that. IA:3 has several fluff conflicts with BFG and BL. Most notably the tau transport and the battles of the Damocles Gulf Crusade. These were partially sorted out in the BFG FAQ 2010, but since that has not yet been 'officially' adopted by GW by putting it on their site we can only say 'fluff conflict' and shrug.

Grey Templar wrote:thats the problem,

the Tau don't HAVE billions and billions of troops.

the 3rd sphere expansion had 1 million Fire Caste Warriors at its heart. that isn't alot.

the Tau only have a few dozen planets and only about half are fully populated, meaning their population couldn't be more then 10-20 billion.

the Fire Caste isn't the most numerous(thats the Earth Caste) so we can only put the number of Tau Fire Caste at somewhere in the 2-5 billion range.

once casualities begin to pile up the Tau will fall.


the Tau are insignificant and idealistic parasites in a galaxy that punishes such weakness with extinction. the timing is unknown, but their fate is certain. to be nothing more then a chapter in Imperial History books and stuffed museum specimens kept behind stasis fields.

The Tau are insignificant beside the Imperium, yes, but they're still more powerful than the entirety of the Space Marines. The scale goes something like:

Chaos Space Marines (few tens of thousands; each more or less equal to a Space Marine)< Space Marines (one million; each equal to twelve real humans in physical ability and training) < Tau (hundreds of millions to low billions of soldiers on the outside; slightly inferior to Guardsmen in training, equipment, and support) < Tyranids (hard to quantify, but soundly beaten by Eldar fleets, as well as conventional Imperial forces, at every turn) < Eldar (military forces unknown, total population in the hundreds of billions to low trillions; individual strength difficult to quantify due to lack of descriptive fluff) < Dark Eldar (roughly the same total population as Eldar, almost entirely militarized; individual strength difficult to quantify due to lack of descriptive fluff) < Imperial Guard (numbers in excess of ten trillion; elite, well equipped and supported, forces fielded in large numbers, expected to soundly defeat still more numerous forces, generally succeed) < Imperial Navy (larger than the Guard in terms of manpower, have more ships capable of reducing worlds to charred wastelands in a matter of days than there are space marines, smaller warships are practically numberless)

Daemons and Necrons don't really fit on the scale, since the first exist almost entirely in another dimension and so are largely irrelevant and the latter has unknown forces, due to still being in a state of hibernation. Orks would top the scale were they unified through sheer numbers alone, but spend more time fighting amongst themselves than they do fighting anyone else, and most ork forces encountered are small enough for small contingents of Guard to put down.

BaronIveagh wrote:Again, you forget that you have to deliver those ground troops. If they're destroyed en route, it doesn't matter if they outnumber the Tau by billions to one. And the Gulf is an idea shooting gallery for defenders, since, due to the differences between Tau and In warp drives, they can move through the area freely, while IN cannot.

Further, IN DOES NOT outnumber the Tau in space the same way they do on the ground. IG may have billions of guardsmen, but an entire sector of Imperial Space is lucky to have five battleships with maybe one hundred warships grand total. This means that, as far as battleships go, the Tau outnumber the combined fleets of the Ultima Segmentum, since their primary battleship is also their primary exploration vessel and primary trade ship, just fitted differently. And since they're modular, thsi means that with very little effort, they can hold the Gulf indefinitely.

Tau warships are, in a word, terrible. They're small troop transports with tiny railguns duct taped to them. They're inferior to the run of the mill Naval warships, which outnumber them, to say nothing of the smallest Navy warships, which still pack more firepower and are yet more numerous still.

BaronIveagh wrote:Battlefleet Gothic: Armada, page 100

Because the Explorer, the basic Tau battleship, is also their basic every other ship. Every freighter, hauler, etc is all the same class. And since it's modular, any of them can be switched over to 'battleship'. It proved so successful that they really never considered building anything else until Ork terrorships swarmed a few under due to their slow speed, so now they also build smaller ships to protect it.

And, the loss of even one battleship can be crippling to an IN fleet. The loss of the Tempest's Child helped extended the Angevin Crusade by decades.

Good fluff, but still that doesn't mean anything...
Tau Fleet still is not bigger than IoM fleet...
And reason because that crusade is extended for so long is because it was manor and it was not give any reinforcements. If your statement if Imperium lose one battleship and fail to replace him, then Cadia would fall right after the heresy, and Macragge would be eaten by Tyranids and so on....
And even if Tau have that magic trick of turning it into the most basic ship into the most basic warship doesn't mean nothing. IN still outnumber Tau gravelly, and in case of crusade - on 1 Tau ship would come 10 Imperial Battleships minimum ( not counting other ships ).

indeed, the Tau navy, while its vessels do have powerful weaponry, is poorly armored and has no boarding capabilities.

Tau weapons are capable of damaging IoM warships, but IoM warships are meant to take horrendous damage.


if a Tau warship is boarded the ship is basically destroyed.


the Tau have only recently been building dedicated warships and these are barely keeping up with existing races ships in term of capabilities. all their previous ships have been civilian craft with guns slapped on.

Well I have a thought....
Why don't they just declare exterminatus and go nuke happy?
Cheap, effective, and you don't even need to get on the ground.

StormRaven wrote:Well I have a thought....
Why don't they just declare exterminatus and go nuke happy?
Cheap, effective, and you don't even need to get on the ground.

Because that's no fun.

Brother Coa wrote:

Good fluff, but still that doesn't mean anything...
Tau Fleet still is not bigger than IoM fleet...
And reason because that crusade is extended for so long is because it was manor and it was not give any reinforcements. If your statement if Imperium lose one battleship and fail to replace him, then Cadia would fall right after the heresy, and Macragge would be eaten by Tyranids and so on....
And even if Tau have that magic trick of turning it into the most basic ship into the most basic warship doesn't mean nothing. IN still outnumber Tau gravelly, and in case of crusade - on 1 Tau ship would come 10 Imperial Battleships minimum ( not counting other ships ).

Dragging out my copy of Codex: Eye of Terror...

Um, no. Neither side fields more then 100 battleships. And this is the 13th Black Crusade!

Battlefleets Cadia, Scarus, Agrippa, and Coronus are the largest and most supplied battlefleets in the Imperium outside of Terra itself. Cadia has 12 battleships. Corona has 7, Scarus only has 5.

By comparison, Battlefleet Gothic itself, as the supposedly 'average' sector fleet, has 3 (Divine Right, Bloodhawk, and Cardinal Boras)

The Explorer has 24 different mks alone.

those are massive Battleships.

the Imperium has thousands of Cruisers, heavy cruisers, and light cruisers.

then millions of escort class vessels.


a Cobra Class escort can be built in a day. the Tau can't match that kind of production schedule.

BaronIveagh wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Good fluff, but still that doesn't mean anything...
Tau Fleet still is not bigger than IoM fleet...
And reason because that crusade is extended for so long is because it was manor and it was not give any reinforcements. If your statement if Imperium lose one battleship and fail to replace him, then Cadia would fall right after the heresy, and Macragge would be eaten by Tyranids and so on....
And even if Tau have that magic trick of turning it into the most basic ship into the most basic warship doesn't mean nothing. IN still outnumber Tau gravelly, and in case of crusade - on 1 Tau ship would come 10 Imperial Battleships minimum ( not counting other ships ).

Dragging out my copy of Codex: Eye of Terror...

Um, no. Neither side fields more then 100 battleships. And this is the 13th Black Crusade!

Battlefleets Cadia, Scarus, Agrippa, and Coronus are the largest and most supplied battlefleets in the Imperium outside of Terra itself. Cadia has 12 battleships. Corona has 7, Scarus only has 5.

By comparison, Battlefleet Gothic itself, as the supposedly 'average' sector fleet, has 3 (Divine Right, Bloodhawk, and Cardinal Boras)

The Explorer has 24 different mks alone.

There seems to be a bit of confusion here. A Battleship is a massive warship. These would generally be the flagships of larger fleets. A single Battleship could probably take the entire Tau navy in a straight up fight. Smaller warships, like escorts and cruisers, make up the bulk of the fleet; the smallest of them rivals the best the Tau can field, and is produced in the thousands on an annual basis.

looking up Tau ships,

their largest vessel has only 2 sets of offensive weapons.


they also have 5+ armor with 4+ rear armor.

their speed is also atrocious.


I feel that my marine fleet(which is a seriously underpowered one) would run circles around these mighty Tau "battleships"

2 of their Cruisers have only 4 hit points(average for a cruiser is 8) with one class having 8.



the Tau fleet isn't a truely fearsome fleet. no way they could go toe to toe with any imperial fleet.

I wish the IoM would send something that is large enough to not get slaughtered in a few months.

All the fanboys in here talking about "ZOMG SPACE 'RINES FTW!"

Whole bunch of chump talk. It's like a big bodybuilder talking about how he coulda beat that little guy who gave him a black eye.

For the record, the IoM did send a fleet, they did send Space Marines, they did send Guard regiments, they did send Titan Legions and they lost. Get over it. You're "uber" faction got pantsed by a "puny" Empire.

Tau for the win.

look again at the Crusade.


the force sent was pitifully small. only half a dozen ships, 500 marines, a few guard regiments, and 8 titans.

thats a tiny force that was formed to combat a threat that was much larger then it was originally belived to be.


this crusade STILL managed to raze a Sept world to the ground and ravage many more colonies.

never mind that the Tau got them all back. the Crusade did alot of damage for how small it was.

Grey Templar wrote:those are massive Battleships.

the Imperium has thousands of Cruisers, heavy cruisers, and light cruisers.

then millions of escort class vessels.


a Cobra Class escort can be built in a day. the Tau can't match that kind of production schedule.

Um...wrong.

"Building a void-ship from scratch is a massive undertaking: it can take years to build an escort-class vessel and centuries to build a capitol ship' - Battlefleet Koronus, page 46)

As far as millions of ship, there are 28,000 sectors in the Imperium. There are approx 50-70 ships per sector fleet. That means that the entire Imperium has 1,960,000 ships grand total.

As far as all of them traveling to the Gulf to fight:

Given that the longer a ship journeys through the warp, the odds of something bad happening approach 1, you're looking at a possible loss of upwards of 50% before you ever engage a single Tau.

look up some more recent fluff.

the Ship yards of the various fleet bases CAN build Escort vessels in a day. Mars and Saturn certaintly can.