This is why we need a Warhammer 40K Fluff book dedicated to Bible duty for facts.
We only need it so people that have hard on's for marine uberness can be held in check.
This thread has completely digressed off topic, return to topic already.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground. With kroot alone, enough can kill a marine, and the ratio of marines to kroot is something like 1 to 100.
Remember too that a kroot warsphere is one of the largest ships known capable of landing on a planet. It's a 9-16 km wide landing craft. (since supposedly warspheres are made larger and larger over time)
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground.
Basically, yeah. They just don't have the numbers to take out an entire empire.
They could do it, but only if they do it smart. They can't take every planet out by hand. What they need to do is hop around the empire destroying trade ships, com relays, and using hit teams to kill eternals. Isolate the planets kill off their leadership and then wait for them to go back to their old habits of killing each other.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground.
Basically, yeah. They just don't have the numbers to take out an entire empire.
They could do it, but only if they do it smart. They can't take every planet out by hand. What they need to do is hop around the empire destroying trade ships, com relays, and using hit teams to kill eternals. Isolate the planets kill off their leadership and then wait for them to go back to their old habits of killing each other.
I sincerely doubt the the Tau would turn to infighting if a few Ethereals were killed off.
It's hard to kill a large subset of any species that's reached the diaspora phase. I've actually expended some brainpower on this, as it once occurred to me that I might not have the matierals or means to eliminate this wretched humanity before it becomes space borne (though so far, it's lack of progress in that direction is buying me time).
The Inquisition has, in fluff, considered a tailored virus targeting the earth caste of the Tau to undermine the empire. This plan is utterly flawed. Once a species exists on dozens of planets, even a disease that can spread while benign and then suddenly become lethal would spread insufficiently for it to have meaningful effect. The same holds true for a virus designed to create errors in replication at the genetic level over successive generations.
When you get down to it, the only workable approach is a scorched earth approach, shattering the planets they inhabit with a relativistic rock (IE the two colliding objects combined impact exceeds the speed of light, from the relative point of the planets surface). However, given the Tau's large scale naval operations, this is also difficult to achieve.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground.
Basically, yeah. They just don't have the numbers to take out an entire empire.
They could do it, but only if they do it smart. They can't take every planet out by hand. What they need to do is hop around the empire destroying trade ships, com relays, and using hit teams to kill eternals. Isolate the planets kill off their leadership and then wait for them to go back to their old habits of killing each other.
Problem is, they Imperium has little to no intel on the inner workings of the Tau Empire.
It would be a bloody maze of death where one mistake could result in a single fleet battle in which the chapter finds itself in the middle of thousands of Tau ships or like the DGC on a Sept world populated by billions.
To defeat the Tau you would need countless Guard Regiments, a vast armada, a chapter of marines, titan support and a solid gameplan of taking worlds one at a time, fortifying them and advancing slowly but steadily.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground.
Basically, yeah. They just don't have the numbers to take out an entire empire.
They could do it, but only if they do it smart. They can't take every planet out by hand. What they need to do is hop around the empire destroying trade ships, com relays, and using hit teams to kill eternals. Isolate the planets kill off their leadership and then wait for them to go back to their old habits of killing each other.
Problem is, they Imperium has little to no intel on the inner workings of the Tau Empire.
It would be a bloody maze of death where one mistake could result in a single fleet battle in which the chapter finds itself in the middle of thousands of Tau ships or like the DGC on a Sept world populated by billions.
To defeat the Tau you would need countless Guard Regiments, a vast armada, a chapter of marines, titan support and a solid gameplan of taking worlds one at a time, fortifying them and advancing slowly but steadily.
Exactly. "Assassinate the Ethereals" is a great plan, until you realize the Imperium has no idea where they would be, how many there are, how spread out they are, how well defended they are, or what the Tau would do in response.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground.
Basically, yeah. They just don't have the numbers to take out an entire empire.
With respect: it's situational.
The Tau are not going to be gathered in any one particular place in numbers enough to prevent a full Black Templar warfleet breaking through and razing a few worlds.
"Razing a world" in 40k is an entirely different thing than "razing a few buildings". They wouldn't be landing troops on the ground, they'd be obliterating any and all life from orbit.
Now, if their goal was to destroy a planet's infrastructure to capture it?
Yeah. They'd be royally boned. If their goal was simply to burn the worlds down and damn the consequences, such as destroying the most valuable commodity in 40k(worlds with resources and able to sustain life), there's not much the Tau can do to prevent it unless they start gathering their fleets at a single planet constantly.
If the entire black templar chapter attacked the tau empire, the black templar chapter would raze a few worlds and get obliterated, in space and then on the ground.
Basically, yeah. They just don't have the numbers to take out an entire empire.
With respect: it's situational.
The Tau are not going to be gathered in any one particular place in numbers enough to prevent a full Black Templar warfleet breaking through and razing a few worlds.
"Razing a world" in 40k is an entirely different thing than "razing a few buildings". They wouldn't be landing troops on the ground, they'd be obliterating any and all life from orbit.
Now, if their goal was to destroy a planet's infrastructure to capture it?
Yeah. They'd be royally boned. If their goal was simply to burn the worlds down and damn the consequences, such as destroying the most valuable commodity in 40k(worlds with resources and able to sustain life), there's not much the Tau can do to prevent it unless they start gathering their fleets at a single planet constantly.
I think your making it sound to easy to raze a world. There are going to be guards space defense platforms, protection fleets, parole fleets. It's not like you will find undefended planets. It gets even worse if the tau get advance warning. They can move ships where you are likely to strike maybe even set up a trap. (If you do find a undefended world. You know that is a trap) Finally there is the blue moon events. You jump to a planet to find a massive nid invasion, or ork fleet.
Just nuking it all from orbit is still hard.
iproxtaco wrote:Remember though, everything goes the Tau's way, especially when they mobilise 25 billion Firewrarriors that they don't have.
How many do you think they have.
Grey Templar wrote:Assassinating the Etherials isn't out of the Imperium's power though.
a couple of Callidus assassins and they could get the job done in a few years.
they enter the Tau empire, kill and take on the persona of increasingly high ranking officers so they get closer to the Etherials.
once they kill th first one, they can take on his persona and use it to kill each and every etherial one by one.
killing the Etherials would certaintly cause the Tau to splinter apart and form little petty empires like the Farsight enclaves.
they would become more agressive, but not united.
More then a few years. It's a long term project, but other that that I think it could work.
Edit: Oh wait, how are they going to act like an eternal without being able to do the whole mind control thing? Also It's not that they are hard to find. There are just a lot of them.
nomotog wrote:
I think your making it sound to easy to raze a world. There are going to be guards space defense platforms, protection fleets, parole fleets. It's not like you will find undefended planets. It gets even worse if the tau get advance warning. They can move ships where you are likely to strike maybe even set up a trap. (If you do find a undefended world. You know that is a trap) Finally there is the blue moon events. You jump to a planet to find a massive nid invasion, or ork fleet.
Just nuking it all from orbit is still hard.
With the firepower of the entire Black Templars fleet, it's not really that hard TBH. All they need to do is make sure they get a "Licence to Virus Bomb/launch Cyclonic Torpedo" from the before they set off. While the doesn't exactly look at the Templars with favour, I'm pretty sure they'd approve of the Tau being wiped out if the Templars are going anyway. There's once again the issue with Imperial interstellar travel being faster than the Tau method, so the Templars could leapfrog from planet to planet, making short stops to get in range for Exterminatus. Since the Tau wouldn't know that the Templars are coming until they're hit, they'd have to somehow catch up to the Templar fleet or retreat to defend the more valuable worlds, in which case the Templars can merrily go home satisfied with the fact that they just decimated the Tau Empire's fighting potential.
Just as someone pointed out a few pages ago, it all boils down to whether the Tau fleet somehow manages to catch up to the Templars or not. If the entire Tau fleet manages to trap the Templar fleet, not even the most devout BT fanboy (read: I) would be able to deny that the Tau would win. If the Templars just play their cards right though, they'd wipe out such a substantial part of the Tau that they'd have problems holding off the Orks and 'Nids.
the Tau can't have more then 10 Billion Fire Caste with even the most liberal numbers.
more realistically, my guess would be on the order of about 2 Billion with only about 1/2 being combat ready. the rest are either too old, too young, or infirm.
this is a low number for the worlds because the Tau make their worlds self-sufficient for food supplies. if they had the equivilants of Hive worlds and Agri-worlds then the number would be higher.
of the ones that are combat ready, they are going to be spread out fairly evenly accross the Empire with concentrations near the Democles Gulf, because of the Imperium, and the eastern fringes, because of the Tyranids and Orks.
if the Tau have 100 worlds and they are spread evenly, then that leaves 10 million Fire Caste per world.
only about a dozen of these worlds are Sept worlds and as such will have low populations, meaning less fire caste in the garrison, unless the world is on the fringe in which case it will probably have a larger one.
the main problem is, the Imperium can simply bypass the outer worlds and strike at vulnerable positions and lead the Tau navy/army on a merry hunt.
the Imperium can cause massive damage to a planet with a single torpedo. 1 Virus bomb won't destroy the planet's ecosystem, but it will certaintly decimate it.
the Imperium could come to a planet, defeat whatever space forces there are, drop a single Virus bomb, the planet's Tau pop is killed, the fleet then heads to the next planet to do the same. the Tau reinforcement fleet arrives to find the planet's population dead and the Imperial Fleet gone with no way of knowing where they are heading next.
Nerivant wrote:I still don't see why the Tau don't have a web of messenger drones that can beam communications across the empire faster than a starship can travel.
But maybe that's only common sense to me.
Same reason that Black Templars appearantly doesn't have lance weapons. Because it doesn't say they do anywhere. (And, in the case of the Templars, there's the party-poopers at the Inquisition...)
Nerivant wrote:I still don't see why the Tau don't have a web of messenger drones that can beam communications across the empire faster than a starship can travel.
But maybe that's only common sense to me.
Do you mean like the little drones? I don't think something that small that have a warp drive. They do use trade drones that carry cargo I guess you can drop a message on them, but it's probably quicker and easier to use a waystation's relay.
Nerivant wrote:I still don't see why the Tau don't have a web of messenger drones that can beam communications across the empire faster than a starship can travel.
But maybe that's only common sense to me.
Do you mean like the little drones? I don't think something that small that have a warp drive. They do use trade drones that carry cargo I guess you can drop a message on them, but it's probably quicker and easier to use a waystation's relay.
Not actually deliver the message, but transmit it to the next drone, to the next drone, to the next drone, to the planet you're trying to communicated it.
Nerivant wrote:I still don't see why the Tau don't have a web of messenger drones that can beam communications across the empire faster than a starship can travel.
But maybe that's only common sense to me.
Do you mean like the little drones? I don't think something that small that have a warp drive. They do use trade drones that carry cargo I guess you can drop a message on them, but it's probably quicker and easier to use a waystation's relay.
Not actually deliver the message, but transmit it to the next drone, to the next drone, to the next drone, to the planet you're trying to communicated it.
Grey Templar wrote:
the main problem is, the Imperium can simply bypass the outer worlds and strike at vulnerable positions and lead the Tau navy/army on a merry hunt.
the Imperium can cause massive damage to a planet with a single torpedo. 1 Virus bomb won't destroy the planet's ecosystem, but it will certaintly decimate it.
the Imperium could come to a planet, defeat whatever space forces there are, drop a single Virus bomb, the planet's Tau pop is killed, the fleet then heads to the next planet to do the same. the Tau reinforcement fleet arrives to find the planet's population dead and the Imperial Fleet gone with no way of knowing where they are heading next.
The problem is the imperium has to fly down a funnel (the aforementioned Damocles Gulf) to hit the inner septs of the Tau. First stop? Heavily fortified and patrolled position, comparable to an Imperial Sector Fortress. Since, if fluff is to be believed, instantly jumping again seems to break Imperial warp drives (and they have no idea which stars have sept worlds and which ones don't past a certain point) they run the risk of instantly jumping right into one of the worlds fortified to withstand the orks, which even though they could take it on, would probably buy more then enough time for the Tau to catch up.
Two, you have to go deep into the gravity well to drop a virus bomb. Since Imperial ships can't just enter the warp wherever (without exploding) this means again you have that long hike in and out system, which gives the tau plenty of time to catch up.
The Tau might lose a world or two, but I doubt it would get further then that.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
This is why we need a Warhammer 40K Fluff book dedicated to Bible duty for facts.
BaronIveagh wrote:
AMEN
juraigamer wrote:
We only need it so people that have hard on's for marine uberness can be held in check.
I doubt you 3 thought that through.
The moment facts hit the fluff, and it is "fluff as written", a lot of you guys won't benefit from it as you like.
Questionable interpretations and lack of citations aren't what anybody did to you. Its the other way around.
So I'd happily look forward to such a book, if it is sanctioned by GW.
BaronIveagh wrote:
The problem is the imperium has to fly down a funnel (the aforementioned Damocles Gulf) to hit the inner septs of the Tau .
Kanluwen wrote:Citation on "heavily fortified and patrolled position".
Heavily fortified for the Tau is nowhere near the same as heavily fortified for the Imperium.
Star of Damocles, which i don't have handy to give you a page number, it's toward the end of the book. Imperial recon comes back and describes the next world the Imperials have targeted in this manner, so it's the Imperials comparing it to one of their own, not the Tau.
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau can't have more then 10 Billion Fire Caste with even the most liberal numbers.
more realistically, my guess would be on the order of about 2 Billion with only about 1/2 being combat ready. the rest are either too old, too young, or infirm.
this is a low number for the worlds because the Tau make their worlds self-sufficient for food supplies. if they had the equivilants of Hive worlds and Agri-worlds then the number would be higher.
of the ones that are combat ready, they are going to be spread out fairly evenly accross the Empire with concentrations near the Democles Gulf, because of the Imperium, and the eastern fringes, because of the Tyranids and Orks.
if the Tau have 100 worlds and they are spread evenly, then that leaves 10 million Fire Caste per world.
only about a dozen of these worlds are Sept worlds and as such will have low populations, meaning less fire caste in the garrison, unless the world is on the fringe in which case it will probably have a larger one.
the main problem is, the Imperium can simply bypass the outer worlds and strike at vulnerable positions and lead the Tau navy/army on a merry hunt.
the Imperium can cause massive damage to a planet with a single torpedo. 1 Virus bomb won't destroy the planet's ecosystem, but it will certaintly decimate it.
the Imperium could come to a planet, defeat whatever space forces there are, drop a single Virus bomb, the planet's Tau pop is killed, the fleet then heads to the next planet to do the same. the Tau reinforcement fleet arrives to find the planet's population dead and the Imperial Fleet gone with no way of knowing where they are heading next.
Planet Earth - A single planet has about 6.5 Billion?
How do you figure a shorter lived species that most likely reproduces faster due to government control and life span is going to not have that number plenty of times over given they own tons of Septs?
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau can't have more then 10 Billion Fire Caste with even the most liberal numbers.
more realistically, my guess would be on the order of about 2 Billion with only about 1/2 being combat ready. the rest are either too old, too young, or infirm.
this is a low number for the worlds because the Tau make their worlds self-sufficient for food supplies. if they had the equivilants of Hive worlds and Agri-worlds then the number would be higher.
of the ones that are combat ready, they are going to be spread out fairly evenly accross the Empire with concentrations near the Democles Gulf, because of the Imperium, and the eastern fringes, because of the Tyranids and Orks.
if the Tau have 100 worlds and they are spread evenly, then that leaves 10 million Fire Caste per world.
only about a dozen of these worlds are Sept worlds and as such will have low populations, meaning less fire caste in the garrison, unless the world is on the fringe in which case it will probably have a larger one.
the main problem is, the Imperium can simply bypass the outer worlds and strike at vulnerable positions and lead the Tau navy/army on a merry hunt.
the Imperium can cause massive damage to a planet with a single torpedo. 1 Virus bomb won't destroy the planet's ecosystem, but it will certaintly decimate it.
the Imperium could come to a planet, defeat whatever space forces there are, drop a single Virus bomb, the planet's Tau pop is killed, the fleet then heads to the next planet to do the same. the Tau reinforcement fleet arrives to find the planet's population dead and the Imperial Fleet gone with no way of knowing where they are heading next.
Planet Earth - A single planet has about 6.5 Billion?
How do you figure a shorter lived species that most likely reproduces faster due to government control and life span is going to not have that number plenty of times over given they own tons of Septs?
we only have 6 billion people because we live so long.
the Human reproduction rate isn't making the population explosion, its because people are living for 80-100 years.
before we had the medical advances we have today, the earth's population was fairly small. in the year 1800, there were around 1 billion people. prior to that date, the pop was even smaller. yet, the birth rates have declined overall since then, but the population grows.
the reason is medical advances making us live longer.
the real answer to so called population problems is to stop keeping old people alive
the Tau, however, are still dying at around 40 despite their technological advances.
the Tau can't have a birth cycle all that different from a Human birth cycle.
they might have a shorter gestation(maybe only 3-5 months), but we can't say for sure.
although, seeing as they are evolved from a bovine-like ancestry we could make educated guesses.
animals like Cows, Deer, Antelopes.... tend to have twins, but they also have specific breeding cycles.
the Tau might usually have twins, but they would have a specific mating season once a year.
so, even if they had a shorter gestation period, they would be locked into having only 2 babies a year. which is perfectly in line with human reproduction.
this gives no specific advantages over humans, aside from a Tau year being about 1/3 shorter then a Terran year.
but the Imperium has countless trillions of people. the birth rate overwhelms the casuality rates in battle so that the Imperium wins battles by drowning the enemy in bodies.
the Tau will have to be the same size of the imperium to hope to match that.
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau can't have a birth cycle all that different from a Human birth cycle.
they might have a shorter gestation(maybe only 3-5 months), but we can't say for sure.
although, seeing as they are evolved from a bovine-like ancestry we could make educated guesses.
animals like Cows, Deer, Antelopes.... tend to have twins, but they also have specific breeding cycles.
the Tau might usually have twins, but they would have a specific mating season once a year.
so, even if they had a shorter gestation period, they would be locked into having only 2 babies a year. which is perfectly in line with human reproduction.
this gives no specific advantages over humans, aside from a Tau year being about 1/3 shorter then a Terran year.
but the Imperium has countless trillions of people. the birth rate overwhelms the casuality rates in battle so that the Imperium wins battles by drowning the enemy in bodies.
the Tau will have to be the same size of the imperium to hope to match that.
There's also the fact that interbreeding between Castes is discouraged. So that's another self-imposed damper on the pool for available mates.
Inbreeding has already caused the Air Caste to lose so much natural bone mass that they can't stay on the surface of a planet for extended periods of time.
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau can't have a birth cycle all that different from a Human birth cycle.
they might have a shorter gestation(maybe only 3-5 months), but we can't say for sure.
although, seeing as they are evolved from a bovine-like ancestry we could make educated guesses.
animals like Cows, Deer, Antelopes.... tend to have twins, but they also have specific breeding cycles.
the Tau might usually have twins, but they would have a specific mating season once a year.
so, even if they had a shorter gestation period, they would be locked into having only 2 babies a year. which is perfectly in line with human reproduction.
this gives no specific advantages over humans, aside from a Tau year being about 1/3 shorter then a Terran year.
but the Imperium has countless trillions of people. the birth rate overwhelms the casuality rates in battle so that the Imperium wins battles by drowning the enemy in bodies.
the Tau will have to be the same size of the imperium to hope to match that.
A load of osik.
The Tau year is not 1/3 shorter then a Terran year, unless the Terran year is 900 days.
There's no evidence linking Tau to bovines, or even to mammals.
Given their short lives, it's not unlikely that the gestation period and the period between births are much shorter than the human norm.
And why do the Tau need to match the Imperium's size?
Grey Templar wrote:the Tau can't have a birth cycle all that different from a Human birth cycle.
they might have a shorter gestation(maybe only 3-5 months), but we can't say for sure.
although, seeing as they are evolved from a bovine-like ancestry we could make educated guesses.
animals like Cows, Deer, Antelopes.... tend to have twins, but they also have specific breeding cycles.
the Tau might usually have twins, but they would have a specific mating season once a year.
so, even if they had a shorter gestation period, they would be locked into having only 2 babies a year. which is perfectly in line with human reproduction.
this gives no specific advantages over humans, aside from a Tau year being about 1/3 shorter then a Terran year.
but the Imperium has countless trillions of people. the birth rate overwhelms the casuality rates in battle so that the Imperium wins battles by drowning the enemy in bodies.
the Tau will have to be the same size of the imperium to hope to match that.
Is that from a book or is it fan cannon?
<Fancannon>It sounds close (You know about as logical we can get with a species that might actually give birth from a hole in their head) A mating season makes sense and it also explains how fire warriors have children. They take the mating season off have a baby and then send them to school before they go back to fighting. Maybe they use chemicals and pharmones to induce mating when it's most advantageous. The eternals could just pick a date or maybe more then one date.<fancannon>
How this relates to planet size? Don't ask me.
On the birth rate for the IoM. Is that birth rate (As in births per 100 people) Or just a lot of births (Because they are so big) ?
With one of the best science communities out there, I see no reason the Tau wouldn't have stellar medical capabilities.
Dal'yth Prime had a population of billions, so it isn't far fetched to imagine a Tau army numbering in the billions. It's actually more far fetched to assume they have an army numbering in the millions.
The Tau also have limited expansions instead of all out crusades. Given their very conservative movements, I wouldn't be surprised if the full Tau military is quite large.
In 40K numbers aren't as scary as they are by current standards. A military power with 20 Billion Soldiers isn't the same compared to a military power capable of raising billions upon billions then replacing them live or die shortly after, like the IoM does.
I think it is totally possible that the Tau have billions in their military. Their Empire is described as being small, but densely populated in the 40K universe.
nomotog wrote:
Is that from a book or is it fan cannon?
<Fancannon>It sounds close (You know about as logical we can get with a species that might actually give birth from a hole in their head) A mating season makes sense and it also explains how fire warriors have children. They take the mating season off have a baby and then send them to school before they go back to fighting. Maybe they use chemicals and pharmones to induce mating when it's most advantageous. The eternals could just pick a date or maybe more then one date.<fancannon>
How this relates to planet size? Don't ask me.
On the birth rate for the IoM. Is that birth rate (As in births per 100 people) Or just a lot of births (Because they are so big) ?
Xenology hinted at a hoofed-mammal ancestor (at least the inquisition dissecting scientist guessed as much) other than that, I have no idea where that came from.
iproxtaco wrote:The rail-rifles are still huge, complicated, unwieldy with a low rate of fire
Huge?... They're the same size as pulse rifles! Something like holding a 2x4 piece of lumber... And probably not much heavier. Tau don't do 'unwieldy'. Low rate of fire? Yes. Rail Rifles are used much like sniper rifles... Hence the 'causes pinning'. The low rate of fire is probably the only thing that makes them a specialist weapon, and unfit for standard issue. They're heavy weapons for the same reason sniper rifles are heavy weapons. Not because they're actually heavy.
give me the source which states that they have been adapted to pulse-rifle ease of use.
Where's your source that says 'rail-rifles are huge, complicated, and unwieldy.'
And I believe that quote was given, pg 29 of the Tau codex, remember? They were brought into use by front line troops (meaning vanguard/scout units e.g. Pathfinders) after extensive field testing.
The models. The fact that it's larger, thus more complicated, and the fact that it's a rail-rifle, involving complicated technology. Unwieldy because they're big. Specialists Weapon with a low rate of fire used by scout roles, hence low ammo.
All of the above makes them unsuitable for general infantry.
And that's been stated before. Still not addressing the point though. They still aren't used or being tested as a replacement or counterpart for the Pulse Rifle, which was the original point.
Railgun tech is a LOT simpler than taking solid rounds and turning them to plasma upon leaving the barell.
Grey Templar wrote:Wait, the Tau year is about 400 days?
I could have sworn it was about 250ish.
in that case its even worse for the Tau reproductive cycle.
and yes, the Tau anatomy is most closely associated with Herbivorous rumenates.
they are not a naturally predatory species in their evolutionary origins, rather being seen as a plains dwelling herbivore.
they are mammels in a loose sense of the word. they certantly don't equate to other Fauna types readily.
*sigh*
1. Tau ARE a predatory species. Their entire society was based upon hunting before they advanced. Their military doctrine is loosely based upon their hunting habits
2. How is the Tau being mammals "loose"? They are air-breathing, vertebrate animals, with sweat glands, specialized teeth, and (almost defiantely) a neo-cortex. I am willing to bet they are even placental.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
agnosto wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
Railgun tech is a LOT simpler than taking solid rounds and turning them to plasma upon leaving the barell.
Yeah, so simple and compact that they may be loaded on........*wait for it*..........*drum roll*...............DRONES!
Yes, that's right, your rail rifle maybe mounted on a small, hovering, autonomous vehicle that may be remotely controlled.
Order today and we'll throw in a spotter and markerlight, ABSOLUTELY FREE!
The Imperium calls us crazy, but we're just here to satisfy all your weapon needs.
order today.
Exactly. They MAY be loaded on drones. But pathfinders use them too. It has been discussed, they are simply specialist weapons and it would be inefficient for a low-rate-of-fire weapon to be on the battlefront. It would be like giving a barett .50 cal rifle to every soldier. Just...impractical. We are developing railguns in the modern day, but pulse rifle will likely be sci-fi forever.
BeefCakeSoup wrote: I think it is totally possible that the Tau have billions in their military. Their Empire is described as being small, but densely populated in the 40K universe.
I am agreeing with that, even we can raise 2/3 of our planetary population under arms for sure ( that's about 4.5 billions solders ).
But there is still one stage where Tau cannot compete with the IoM - experience.
Mankind is existing 240,000 years in 40k, Tau are existing only for 6,000 ( but because of the warp Time effect we will say that information is maybe wrong when compared to the Tau side ).
Mankind has been in space for 37.000 years and have galactic empire that covers 90% of the galaxy ( of course the 2 neighbor planets might be up to 100LY away with few star systems between them ). Tau have been in space for just under 2000 years.
Fire Warrior that have 10 years of experience cannot match Imperial Guardsman with 10 years of experience. And they also cannot match Space Marines in experience.
from all what I have read:
IoM - high numbers, slightly better and practical tech, lot of specialized infantry and armor vehicles. Disadvantage - to many enemies - veteran forces to stretch, primary use of solders as meat shields, highly adaptable to corruption - thus losing entire worlds in process.
Tau Empire - high tech present almost everywhere, lot of specialized infantry and battle-suits, alien allies. Disadvantage - low population - when compared to other races, small territory - easy to defend but also easy to quarantine, lack of combat and diplomatic experience - Tau have almost none combat experience or contacts with Necrons, Eldar or Chaos. And they where in great danger against one small Hive Fleet.
Overall: in case of all-out war - Imperium would win, the chances are 80% - 20% toward Tau. But as the time goes by the Tau chances are improving, unless they to get hit by someone.
Brother Coa wrote:
Mankind is existing 240,000 years in 40k, Tau are existing only for 6,000 ( but because of the warp Time effect we will say that information is maybe wrong when compared to the Tau side ).
Mankind has been in space for 37.000 years and have galactic empire that covers 90% of the galaxy ( of course the 2 neighbor planets might be up to 100LY away with few star systems between them ). Tau have been in space for just under 2000 years.
Fire Warrior that have 10 years of experience cannot match Imperial Guardsman with 10 years of experience. And they also cannot match Space Marines in experience.
from all what I have read:
IoM - high numbers, slightly better and practical tech, lot of specialized infantry and armor vehicles. Disadvantage - to many enemies - veteran forces to stretch, primary use of solders as meat shields, highly adaptable to corruption - thus losing entire worlds in process.
Tau Empire - high tech present almost everywhere, lot of specialized infantry and battle-suits, alien allies. Disadvantage - low population - when compared to other races, small territory - easy to defend but also easy to quarantine, lack of combat and diplomatic experience - Tau have almost none combat experience or contacts with Necrons, Eldar or Chaos. And they where in great danger against one small Hive Fleet.
Overall: in case of all-out war - Imperium would win, the chances are 80% - 20% toward Tau. But as the time goes by the Tau chances are improving, unless they to get hit by someone.
There is no time effect of the Warp Storms. People need to stop bringing that up.
A battle suit pilot is more than a match for a veteran Guardsman.
The Imperium can't realistically wage open war with the Tau. They can't open a completely new front to delegate resources to.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I think it is totally possible that the Tau have billions in their military. Their Empire is described as being small, but densely populated in the 40K universe.
I am agreeing with that, even we can raise 2/3 of our planetary population under arms for sure ( that's about 4.5 billions solders ).
But there is still one stage where Tau cannot compete with the IoM - experience.
Mankind is existing 240,000 years in 40k, Tau are existing only for 6,000 ( but because of the warp Time effect we will say that information is maybe wrong when compared to the Tau side ).
Mankind has been in space for 37.000 years and have galactic empire that covers 90% of the galaxy ( of course the 2 neighbor planets might be up to 100LY away with few star systems between them ). Tau have been in space for just under 2000 years.
Fire Warrior that have 10 years of experience cannot match Imperial Guardsman with 10 years of experience. And they also cannot match Space Marines in experience.
from all what I have read:
IoM - high numbers, slightly better and practical tech, lot of specialized infantry and armor vehicles. Disadvantage - to many enemies - veteran forces to stretch, primary use of solders as meat shields, highly adaptable to corruption - thus losing entire worlds in process.
Tau Empire - high tech present almost everywhere, lot of specialized infantry and battle-suits, alien allies. Disadvantage - low population - when compared to other races, small territory - easy to defend but also easy to quarantine, lack of combat and diplomatic experience - Tau have almost none combat experience or contacts with Necrons, Eldar or Chaos. And they where in great danger against one small Hive Fleet.
Overall: in case of all-out war - Imperium would win, the chances are 80% - 20% toward Tau. But as the time goes by the Tau chances are improving, unless they to get hit by someone.
At 10 years experience the firewarrior is in a crissus suit and they are a match for SMs. It's kind of surprising. They don't have the SM years of exprence, but they are competitive with each other. Give the advantage to who you want, but they are in the same weight class. You could actually look at it as an advantage. It only takes them ten years and one mech suit to combat someone with hundreds of years and relic armor. Good luck replacing that SM before the tau replace 10 times that number of firewarriors.
On a larger level, the Tau still have a lot to learn as a people. Like not trading people with dark elder, or throwing a party for necrons. Learning these lessons will be both a benefit and a curse.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I think it is totally possible that the Tau have billions in their military. Their Empire is described as being small, but densely populated in the 40K universe.
I am agreeing with that, even we can raise 2/3 of our planetary population under arms for sure ( that's about 4.5 billions solders ).
But there is still one stage where Tau cannot compete with the IoM - experience.
Mankind is existing 240,000 years in 40k, Tau are existing only for 6,000 ( but because of the warp Time effect we will say that information is maybe wrong when compared to the Tau side ).
Mankind has been in space for 37.000 years and have galactic empire that covers 90% of the galaxy ( of course the 2 neighbor planets might be up to 100LY away with few star systems between them ). Tau have been in space for just under 2000 years.
Fire Warrior that have 10 years of experience cannot match Imperial Guardsman with 10 years of experience. And they also cannot match Space Marines in experience.
from all what I have read:
IoM - high numbers, slightly better and practical tech, lot of specialized infantry and armor vehicles. Disadvantage - to many enemies - veteran forces to stretch, primary use of solders as meat shields, highly adaptable to corruption - thus losing entire worlds in process.
Tau Empire - high tech present almost everywhere, lot of specialized infantry and battle-suits, alien allies. Disadvantage - low population - when compared to other races, small territory - easy to defend but also easy to quarantine, lack of combat and diplomatic experience - Tau have almost none combat experience or contacts with Necrons, Eldar or Chaos. And they where in great danger against one small Hive Fleet.
Overall: in case of all-out war - Imperium would win, the chances are 80% - 20% toward Tau. But as the time goes by the Tau chances are improving, unless they to get hit by someone.
I agree with most of that, especially the last part. If the IoM just waits, the Tau Empire will only get stronger and more high-tech.
However, there are three points I must contest.
1. The hive fleet they encountered was probably the most dangerous ever encountered. The tyranids were hyper-adaptive. It wasn't smaller just because it was smaller, it was smaller because instead of focusing on making more gaunts, it was making it's gaunts more adaptive, and by extension more powerful.
2. It is unfair to compare experience. The IoM does have much, much more experience, but the Tau short time in the galaxy has been during the most war-filled time in it's entire history, other than the Necrontyr vs. The Old Ones, and the Men of Iron.
3. if a FW with 10 years experience fought a guardsman with 10 years experience, the Fire Warrior would win (most of the time). With Fire warriors, they are promoted based on experience and training. This means that the Fire Warrior would be a Shas'vre (they are offered advancement every 4 years of field duty), meaning he would either be a commander's bodyguard (XV8 armour) or an XV8 team leader (XV8 armour). I know you meant on foot, but the FW would never be on foot unless he used an ejection system.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S., +1 on the noticing that the Perdus Rift anomaly may have distorted time for the Tau.
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
It is pretty much their motto. They devoted 1/3 of the Inquisition to it, even though subtlety is not necessary for dealing with planetary invasion. The only ordo that is actually necessary is the Ordo Hereticus because if someone is trading with aliens, it is HERESY, if someone is summoning a daemon, it is HERESY, so both the malleus and xenos branches are completely redundant.
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
It is pretty much their motto. They devoted 1/3 of the Inquisition to it, even though subtlety is not necessary for dealing with planetary invasion. The only ordo that is actually necessary is the Ordo Hereticus because if someone is trading with aliens, it is HERESY, if someone is summoning a daemon, it is HERESY, so both the malleus and xenos branches are completely redundant.
Except that having Inquisitors specialized for certain threats, with a military wings specialized to face certain threats, means that they're better at rooting it out and dealing with it.
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
Oh Oh I know this one. Nimbrosa marks a possible turning point in tau culture. They start out all wide eyed and busty tailed looking to united the universe and spread the GG. They take delight in finding alien cultures and new unexplained things because they see the opportunity in everything first. Then they meet the IoM and things start going down hill. They get nervous. They start looking at the bad side of new people and places. Seeing them as a threat rather then an opportunity. Brightsword killed everyone at nimbrosa. Rather then seeing the opportunity to add these humans, he saw them as a threat that needed to be eliminated.
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
Oh Oh I know this one. Nimbrosa marks a possible turning point in tau culture. They start out all wide eyed and busty tailed looking to united the universe and spread the GG. They take delight in finding alien cultures and new unexplained things because they see the opportunity in everything first. Then they meet the IoM and things start going down hill. They get nervous. They start looking at the bad side of new people and places. Seeing them as a threat rather then an opportunity. Brightsword killed everyone at nimbrosa. Rather then seeing the opportunity to add these humans, he saw them as a threat that needed to be eliminated.
Brightsword is an extremist. He and O'Shovah. Do not judge a species based on them. That would be like calling all humans evil due to Hitler.
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
Oh Oh I know this one. Nimbrosa marks a possible turning point in tau culture. They start out all wide eyed and busty tailed looking to united the universe and spread the GG. They take delight in finding alien cultures and new unexplained things because they see the opportunity in everything first. Then they meet the IoM and things start going down hill. They get nervous. They start looking at the bad side of new people and places. Seeing them as a threat rather then an opportunity. Brightsword killed everyone at nimbrosa. Rather then seeing the opportunity to add these humans, he saw them as a threat that needed to be eliminated.
Brightsword is an extremist. He and O'Shovah. Do not judge a species based on them. That would be like calling all humans evil due to Hitler.
It's a warning sign. (Doesn't have to do with them being evil or not.) A sign that the tau can be corrupted by war and that they need to watch themselves so they don't turn into the next IoM.
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
Oh Oh I know this one. Nimbrosa marks a possible turning point in tau culture. They start out all wide eyed and busty tailed looking to united the universe and spread the GG. They take delight in finding alien cultures and new unexplained things because they see the opportunity in everything first. Then they meet the IoM and things start going down hill. They get nervous. They start looking at the bad side of new people and places. Seeing them as a threat rather then an opportunity. Brightsword killed everyone at nimbrosa. Rather then seeing the opportunity to add these humans, he saw them as a threat that needed to be eliminated.
Brightsword is an extremist. He and O'Shovah. Do not judge a species based on them. That would be like calling all humans evil due to Hitler.
true enough, but I see it as a possable turning point for the Tau.
they will soon realize that their "Greater Good" is just going to get them killed.
the Greater Good may live on, but it will live on in being the Survival of the Tau race.
40k is a fight where weakness is extinction. the Tau's philosophy will eventually get them talking to the wrong faction and that faction will turn on them and the Tau will be wiped from the Galaxy, unless they harden up.
The Imperium has more than enough resources to annihilate the Tau. They are small and insignificant, NOTHING compared to the resources the Imeprium uses to fight the other infinitely more important and powerful threats it faces on a day to day basis. That's Tau fans wishfully thinking that their race is significant, making things up when the obviously when crunch time comes, they will be destroyed.
A Crisis suit is a match for a Space Marine only because he's in a Crisis suit. He can have a single year of experience, that suit is what makes him powerful, not his pitiful 10 years of battle.
Why is it unfair to compare the Tau and Imperium on experience? Is it because the Tau are so massively out-classed, therefore it's unfair because the Tau are at a disadvantage? Lol. It's entirely fair. The Tau may have fought during one of the most destructive periods in history, but those few isolated wars are a trip to the park compared to the average day on the Cadian Gate. They are naive and inexperienced.
Sorry, only the Ordo Hereticus? Not the Ordo Malleus? Responsible for protecting humanity from Daemons and Chaos? Or the Ordo Xenos, responsible for dealing with aliens which more often than not have malicious intent towards humans?
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
Oh Oh I know this one. Nimbrosa marks a possible turning point in tau culture. They start out all wide eyed and busty tailed looking to united the universe and spread the GG. They take delight in finding alien cultures and new unexplained things because they see the opportunity in everything first. Then they meet the IoM and things start going down hill. They get nervous. They start looking at the bad side of new people and places. Seeing them as a threat rather then an opportunity. Brightsword killed everyone at nimbrosa. Rather then seeing the opportunity to add these humans, he saw them as a threat that needed to be eliminated.
Brightsword is an extremist. He and O'Shovah. Do not judge a species based on them. That would be like calling all humans evil due to Hitler.
true enough, but I see it as a possable turning point for the Tau.
they will soon realize that their "Greater Good" is just going to get them killed.
the Greater Good may live on, but it will live on in being the Survival of the Tau race.
40k is a fight where weakness is extinction. the Tau's philosophy will eventually get them talking to the wrong faction and that faction will turn on them and the Tau will be wiped from the Galaxy, unless they harden up.
I think it's the other way. If the tau abandon the GG then they are doomed a slow death. It's only by embracing the possibilitys, that they can hope to do anything. Sure they might lose, but they are guaranteed to lose if they abandon their hopes and dreams.
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
Oh Oh I know this one. Nimbrosa marks a possible turning point in tau culture. They start out all wide eyed and busty tailed looking to united the universe and spread the GG. They take delight in finding alien cultures and new unexplained things because they see the opportunity in everything first. Then they meet the IoM and things start going down hill. They get nervous. They start looking at the bad side of new people and places. Seeing them as a threat rather then an opportunity. Brightsword killed everyone at nimbrosa. Rather then seeing the opportunity to add these humans, he saw them as a threat that needed to be eliminated.
Brightsword is an extremist. He and O'Shovah. Do not judge a species based on them. That would be like calling all humans evil due to Hitler.
true enough, but I see it as a possable turning point for the Tau.
they will soon realize that their "Greater Good" is just going to get them killed.
the Greater Good may live on, but it will live on in being the Survival of the Tau race.
40k is a fight where weakness is extinction. the Tau's philosophy will eventually get them talking to the wrong faction and that faction will turn on them and the Tau will be wiped from the Galaxy, unless they harden up.
Well the only faction I can actually see the Tau trusting is the Eldar, and as long as the Tau are friendly, and the Eldar see no futures in which the Tau attack them.
Which will never happen considering the Tau will try to incorporate the Eldar into the Greater Good, which the Eldar will resist, until they are destroyed.
iproxtaco wrote:Which will never happen considering the Tau will try to incorporate the Eldar into the Greater Good, which the Eldar will resist, until they are destroyed.
The Eldar trick the Tau into thinking they already follow the Greater Good.
Or something. It's probably more likely than we think.
More bother than it's worth. What happens when the Tau start trying to order the Eldar around or subjugate them? It will not happen, trickery or none. The Eldar will never have any friendly relationships with the Tau.
iproxtaco wrote:Which will never happen considering the Tau will try to incorporate the Eldar into the Greater Good, which the Eldar will resist, until they are destroyed.
The Eldar trick the Tau into thinking they already follow the Greater Good.
Or something. It's probably more likely than we think.
And of course, the thing that seals the deal:
If the extermination of the Tau will preserve a single Eldar life--the Eldar will not hesitate to let it happen.
iproxtaco wrote:Which will never happen considering the Tau will try to incorporate the Eldar into the Greater Good, which the Eldar will resist, until they are destroyed.
Well, despite the Tau being blissfully ignorant of half the galaxy and of the fact that ideals get you killed, I believe that they, being (almost definately) the most adaptable race will, well, adapt to being allies with equals.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:More bother than it's worth. What happens when the Tau start trying to order the Eldar around or subjugate them? It will not happen, trickery or none. The Eldar will never have any friendly relationships with the Tau.
Actually, Eldrad Ulthuan had a quote in the 3ed Tau codex that said he saw great potential in the Tau and wanted to help them reach their potential. he said he felt a fatherly protection towards them.
iproxtaco wrote:Which will never happen considering the Tau will try to incorporate the Eldar into the Greater Good, which the Eldar will resist, until they are destroyed.
Well, despite the Tau being blissfully ignorant of half the galaxy and of the fact that ideals get you killed, I believe that they, being (almost definately) the most adaptable race will, well, adapt to being allies with equals.
Which won't happen. They tried to force the Imperium into submission. A race which the knew was bigger and more powerful. They didn't just adapt then.
Actually, Eldrad Ulthuan had a quote in the 3ed Tau codex that said he saw great potential in the Tau and wanted to help them reach their potential. he said he felt a fatherly protection towards them.
Eldrad is far from representing the mindset of the majority of Eldar.
iproxtaco wrote:Which will never happen considering the Tau will try to incorporate the Eldar into the Greater Good, which the Eldar will resist, until they are destroyed.
Well, despite the Tau being blissfully ignorant of half the galaxy and of the fact that ideals get you killed, I believe that they, being (almost definately) the most adaptable race will, well, adapt to being allies with equals.
Which won't happen. They tried to force the Imperium into submission. A race which the knew was bigger and more powerful. They didn't just adapt then.
Yes, they actually did. Now the water caste fights their battles. Or have you not noticed how the Tau are able to straight up convince worlds to join their Empire?
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
My point is that Tau are known by everybody for being "nice" and "good" and that they would never do this because of their grater good...
This show's that they are willing to kill everyone that does not succumb before the grater good. Not a very Tau like....
Actually, Eldrad Ulthuan had a quote in the 3ed Tau codex that said he saw great potential in the Tau and wanted to help them reach their potential. he said he felt a fatherly protection towards them.
Eldrad is far from representing the mindset of the majority of Eldar.
But he, being the "leader" of his craft world, would pretty much ensure that if he were the one to meet with the Tau, it would be friendly. And I am fairly sure he could convince other Eldar of the purity of the Tau. They consider the Humans to be, relative to the other races they have encountered, good neighbors, and the Tau, being much less warlike, less inclined to random battles, more (infinitely) tolerant of races not their own. Not to mention they have never once been documented to be corrupted, which is a big deal considering Chaos is probably hated by the Eldar more than it is by the humans. Considering that, the Eldar would likely do whatever they could to have the Tau as their galactic neighbors.
That's not adapting in the sense you were talking about. You said that the Tau would adapt to see the Eldar as equals, and not as another race to subjugate. They came across the Imperium, an empire that they knew was bigger, more powerful and completely unwilling to join them. Did they adapt to see the Imperium as beyond their control? NO. They decided to use diplomats to undermine the outlying worlds loyalty, to supplant them and bribe them. The Tau wanted to subjugate the Imperium, and still want to.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
My point is that Tau are known by everybody for being "nice" and "good" and that they would never do this because of their grater good...
This show's that they are willing to kill everyone that does not succumb before the grater good. Not a very Tau like....
agnosto wrote:what's yer point? Each faction has commited atrocities. Heck, the IoM makes killing all aliens a priority.
My point is that Tau are known by everybody for being "nice" and "good" and that they would never do this because of their grater good...
This show's that they are willing to kill everyone that does not succumb before the grater good. Not a very Tau like....
This thread isn't really about if the tau are evil or not. Ya I know we get of track a lot, but I think the topic of Good & Evil in tau is it's own thread.
Eldrad, is one Eldar with one opinion, who didn't express or impress it to or on any other Eldar that we have knowledge of, and he is now not even around any more. That's your one Tau sympathiser gone.
*Sigh* I leave for a while, and come back, and people are spouting nonsense again.
Tau: Eldar Alliance: Quite possible, there are several fluff quotes more or less leaning in that direction.
What would that mean for IoM? A much bigger pain in the ass, if the Eldar start chucking Tau battlesuits out of webway gates. Tau seem much more numerous then eldar.
Tau killing everyone on Nimbosa: Not clear why this takes place. Or even if this takes place as claimed. After all, the IoM's policy on the first War of Armageddon is 'What First War?' quickly followed by a bolt to the head. I would not be surprised if any civvies that did survive the Tau invasion or, gasp, surrendered, were promptly eliminated by the invading Imperium, who then blamed the Tau.
iproxtaco wrote:Eldrad, is one Eldar with one opinion, who didn't express or impress it to or on any other Eldar that we have knowledge of, and he is now not even around any more. That's your one Tau sympathiser gone.
There are a few more. I'm still digging around to find it, but there's another eldar one about the Tau being full of hope the 'likes of which the Eldar have not seen since the fall' that wasn't Eldrad.
Edit: found it
"However, the journey toward that distant end is one replete with the gossamer caress of hope and promise, a faint glimmer in an otherwise frigidly dark and unforgiving universe the likes of which has not been glimpsed since the Fall…" - Glébriwyn Tithrändil, Farseer of the Alaitoc Eldar
BaronIveagh wrote:
What would that mean for IoM? A much bigger pain in the ass
Dude, Tau will in the end ally itself with IoM. And Imperium is changing to, accepting xeno aid and even helping aliens.
Yes, because recruiting Space Marines to receive specialized training to hunt down and neutralize non-human threats is a sure sign of growing xenos-tolerance.
BaronIveagh wrote:*Sigh* I leave for a while, and come back, and people are spouting nonsense again.
Tau: Eldar Alliance: Quite possible, there are several fluff quotes more or less leaning in that direction.
What would that mean for IoM? A much bigger pain in the ass, if the Eldar start chucking Tau battlesuits out of webway gates. Tau seem much more numerous then eldar.
Tau killing everyone on Nimbosa: Not clear why this takes place. Or even if this takes place as claimed. After all, the IoM's policy on the first War of Armageddon is 'What First War?' quickly followed by a bolt to the head. I would not be surprised if any civvies that did survive the Tau invasion or, gasp, surrendered, were promptly eliminated by the invading Imperium, who then blamed the Tau.
XV8s/XV9s/XV25/XV22/XV88s
all teleporting with webway portals...beautiful.
The Tau would no longer have the major disadvantage of slow FTL travel.
And if the two races started trading tech...Taudar FTW!
BaronIveagh wrote:
What would that mean for IoM? A much bigger pain in the ass
Dude, Tau will in the end ally itself with IoM. And Imperium is changing to, accepting xeno aid and even helping aliens.
Yes, because recruiting Space Marines to receive specialized training to hunt down and neutralize non-human threats is a sure sign of growing xenos-tolerance.
Malbrede, Malan'tai, Dolumar IV and countless other worlds are example of this. Inquisition even have alliance with few Eldar Craftworlds. And Imperium is fighting hard to keep peace with the Tau Empire.
I am saying that this input must be Imperium beginning of change.
BaronIveagh wrote:
What would that mean for IoM? A much bigger pain in the ass
Dude, Tau will in the end ally itself with IoM. And Imperium is changing to, accepting xeno aid and even helping aliens.
Yes, because recruiting Space Marines to receive specialized training to hunt down and neutralize non-human threats is a sure sign of growing xenos-tolerance.
Malbrede, Malan'tai, Dolumar IV and countless other worlds are example of this. Inquisition even have alliance with few Eldar Craftworlds. And Imperium is fighting hard to keep peace with the Tau Empire.
I am saying that this input must be Imperium beginning of change.
The IoM doesn't ally. It fights alongside xenos for the duration of a battle then kills them.
It is not fighting hard for peace with the Tau, it is bust squashing bugs.
Puny little earth, her war torn people almost destroyed then united under this crazy guy, who had a belief that the universe needed more science instead of religion and set out to conquer the stars... ha.
Silly Emperor and his Imperial Truth.
Puny little Tau, her war torn people almost destroyed then united under this crazy Ethereal leadership, who believe the universe needs more science instead of religion. Setting out to conquer the stars... ha .
Silly Tau and their Greater Good.
The difference between them is that the "Ethereals" of Earth united into one body to lead their people. The Ethereals of the Tau didn't.
Maybe someday the Imperium will see the reflection in the water...
I am surprised... This thread has transform from Tau-hate to all Tau-info thread featuring everything about them. Can anyone tell me what shoe number Aun'Va is wearing?
Just kidding
Back on topic, you are speaking about Eldar now. Do Eldar have any Webways inside the Empire? And do Tau understand Eldar tech?
Brother Coa wrote:I am surprised... This thread has transform from Tau-hate to all Tau-info thread featuring everything about them. Can anyone tell me what shoe number Aun'Va is wearing?
Just kidding
Back on topic, you are speaking about Eldar now. Do Eldar have any Webways inside the Empire? And do Tau understand Eldar tech?
Tau don't wear shoes.
Tau have had very minimal contact with the Eldar, from what I know. Then again, I have learned quite a bit from this thread.
Brother Coa wrote:I am surprised... This thread has transform from Tau-hate to all Tau-info thread featuring everything about them. Can anyone tell me what shoe number Aun'Va is wearing?
Just kidding
Back on topic, you are speaking about Eldar now. Do Eldar have any Webways inside the Empire? And do Tau understand Eldar tech?
Tau don't wear shoes.
Tau have had very minimal contact with the Eldar, from what I know. Then again, I have learned quite a bit from this thread.
Tau have had zero contact with the Eldar. The only time they ever met/fought was in the DoW games, but that really, really doesn't count.
Also, the Tau may or may not understand Eldar tech. They have little/no knowledge of how psykers work, but they do have the Nicassar, and could either have them explain it, or compare it to the Nicassar tech.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Grey Templar wrote:
Nerivant wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
someday, a Farseer will see the Tau trying to take over the Eldar by force and on that day, the Tau shall know wrath and fear.
Or, you know, they see something else.
the Eldar see lots of things.
I am sure some Eldar are seeing a futue where the Tau attack them.
the issue arises when that future is too close for comfort.
Well if the Eldar are initially friendly and peaceful (most are) then the Tau will likely be diplomatic in return. If the Tau are diplomatic, then they have no reason to attack the Eldar. If they have no reason to attack the Eldar, then there shouldn't be any future in which they wage war on them=allies. The Tau will be the Eldar's Korean-super-secret-pony-best-friends-for-ever.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
Brother Coa wrote:I am surprised... This thread has transform from Tau-hate to all Tau-info thread featuring everything about them. Can anyone tell me what shoe number Aun'Va is wearing?
Just kidding
Back on topic, you are speaking about Eldar now. Do Eldar have any Webways inside the Empire? And do Tau understand Eldar tech?
Tau don't wear shoes.
Tau have had very minimal contact with the Eldar, from what I know. Then again, I have learned quite a bit from this thread.
Yes, they do.
It says so in Savage Scars. A Gue'vesa comments on how ugly their shoes are and refuses to wear them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:Puny little earth, her war torn people almost destroyed then united under this crazy guy, who had a belief that the universe needed more science instead of religion and set out to conquer the stars... ha.
Silly Emperor and his Imperial Truth.
Puny little Tau, her war torn people almost destroyed then united under this crazy Ethereal leadership, who believe the universe needs more science instead of religion. Setting out to conquer the stars... ha .
Silly Tau and their Greater Good.
The difference between them is that the "Ethereals" of Earth united into one body to lead their people. The Ethereals of the Tau didn't.
Maybe someday the Imperium will see the reflection in the water...
A non-united faction that united...unique!
And the Ethereals did not free the Tau from religion, as the Tau have never had a religion. The Science of the Tau has nothing to do with the Ethereals and everything to do with the Earth Caste.
Every single Ork Waaagh! ever has been an example of a people uniting for a cause.
The Tau will not adapt. They think it's their manifest destiny to unite all races under the Greater Good, through force if they have to. What happens when they start to push the Eldar? The Eldar will break off all ties. The Tau will try to force them. The Eldar will fight until they are destroyed, or the Tau give up.
iproxtaco wrote:The Tau will not adapt. They think it's their manifest destiny to unite all races under the Greater Good, through force if they have to. What happens when they start to push the Eldar? The Eldar will break off all ties. The Tau will try to force them. The Eldar will fight until they are destroyed, or the Tau give up.
That's what their ultra-ninja mind trick playing elite water caste is for. They manipulate the Eldar, and in return the Eldar (obviously, just cause they're Eldar) manipulate them in return. Alliance!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
It says so in Savage Scars. A Gue'vesa comments on how ugly their shoes are and refuses to wear them.
Humans and Tau don't have the same feet. Even if the Tau did wear shoes, a human couldn't wear them.
I'm assuming he was referring to the shoes made for humans, by the Tau.
She was referring to the shoes worn by the Tau. She refused to wear a pair that looked like those worn by the Tau, only shaped for human feet.
She was referring to the shoes worn by the Tau. She refused to wear a pair that looked like those worn by the Tau, only shaped for human feet.
That makes noooooooooooooooooo sense.
Okay.
She was waiting in a room, with a few Tau, and saw their big, brown, plain, ugly shoes. Then a Tau servant brought her a pair of shoes that were also big, brown, plain and ugly. She refused to wear them and told the Tau how ugly their shoes were.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:FANBOY ALERT. The Water Caste manipulating the Eldar? TROLL.
I was sayin' they'd try.
And so would the Eldar.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Although the Entire reason the IoM considers Tau a threat is not because of their military, but because of the Water caste. Worlds just...go missing cuz of da wata cast
She was referring to the shoes worn by the Tau. She refused to wear a pair that looked like those worn by the Tau, only shaped for human feet.
That makes noooooooooooooooooo sense.
Okay.
She was waiting in a room, with a few Tau, and saw their big, brown, plain, ugly shoes. Then a Tau servant brought her a pair of shoes that were also big, brown, plain and ugly. She refused to wear them and told the Tau how ugly their shoes were.
She was referring to the shoes worn by the Tau. She refused to wear a pair that looked like those worn by the Tau, only shaped for human feet.
That makes noooooooooooooooooo sense.
Okay.
She was waiting in a room, with a few Tau, and saw their big, brown, plain, ugly shoes. Then a Tau servant brought her a pair of shoes that were also big, brown, plain and ugly. She refused to wear them and told the Tau how ugly their shoes were.
Tau don't need shoes...
Aun'Va's model doesn't even wear shoes...
I am not talking about Aun'Va.
And yes, they do. Horses, also hooved creatures, need to have their hooves supported by horseshoes, and The Tau would also need shoes. I am NOT saying they wear Horseshoes, I am saying they wear shoes. Hooves can crack/split/chip. They need to be protected every bit as much as human feet do.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, and fail epically, whereas the Eldar would win. Win here, win there, win everywhere.
im2randomghgh wrote:
And yes, they do. Horses, also hooved creatures, need to have their hooves supported by horseshoes, and The Tau would also need shoes. I am NOT saying they wear Horseshoes, I am saying they wear shoes. Hooves can crack/split/chip. They need to be protected every bit as much as human feet do.
Except that the hardness of hooves is extremely variable, and the most common causes, like poor nutrition and dehydration, can be ruled out.
Plus, any sentient species with technology advanced as the Tau probably have a few solutions for a problem that plagues farm animals here on Earth.
iproxtaco wrote:Aun'va sits in a chair, he doesn't walk so doesn't need to wear shoes.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT AUN'VA!
I AM TALKING ABOUT THE TAU AS A PEOPLE!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote: And yes, they do. Horses, also hooved creatures, need to have their hooves supported by horseshoes, and The Tau would also need shoes. I am NOT saying they wear Horseshoes, I am saying they wear shoes. Hooves can crack/split/chip. They need to be protected every bit as much as human feet do.
Except that the hardness of hooves is extremely variable, and the most common causes, like poor nutrition and dehydration, can be ruled out.
Plus, any sentient species with technology advanced as the Tau probably have a few solutions for a problem that plagues farm animals here on Earth.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nerivant wrote:
im2randomghgh wrote:
And yes, they do. Horses, also hooved creatures, need to have their hooves supported by horseshoes, and The Tau would also need shoes. I am NOT saying they wear Horseshoes, I am saying they wear shoes. Hooves can crack/split/chip. They need to be protected every bit as much as human feet do.
Except that the hardness of hooves is extremely variable, and the most common causes, like poor nutrition and dehydration, can be ruled out.
Plus, any sentient species with technology advanced as the Tau probably have a few solutions for a problem that plagues farm animals here on Earth.
...a solution like shoes.
Or you know, something less boring. Like a compound applied to protect it; so they don't have to waste manufacturing power on the production of shoes.
Aun'Va isn't entirely a useless example. His model is in a chair, because that's how he would get around on the battlefield; not in his day-to-day.
But waste time and resources on a complicated process to create a compound. So they make shoes. Just because the Tau have advanced technology doesn't mean they have an advanced piece of technology for everything.
Plus, that compound would have to harden, thus it would make shoes.
And yes, it is. He's one Tau, that doesn't even walk. Any examples of Tau without shoes on that need to walk?
iproxtaco wrote:But waste time and resources on a complicated process to create a compound. So they make shoes. Just because the Tau have advanced technology doesn't mean they have an advanced piece of technology for everything.
Plus, that compound would have to harden, thus it would make shoes,
Except that you'd need different shoe sizes, create the equipment for making shoes, create equipment for processing the materials to make shoes, make replace equipment for the equipment to make shoes, and then make the shoes.
Or you can spend the time to figure out a long-term solution.
Note: This is far more interesting and entertaining than most of this thread has been.
The dissecting physician in Xenology notes that the pads on the bottom Tau "feet" are abnormally sensitive...the picture in the book also looks nothing like the models which means one of two things.
1. xenology is dated and retconned
2. The "hooves" on the models are actually shoes.
The dissecting physician in Xenology notes that the pads on the bottom Tau "feet" are abnormally sensitive...the picture in the book also looks nothing like the models which means one of two things.
1. xenology is dated and retconned
2. The "hooves" on the models are actually shoes.
+1
But yeah, in Savage Scars, it described the Tau as having unnatural looking, reverse jointed FEET, not hooves. I guess FW have shoes then...
I think they have hooves, but the "Hoof" is more of a hardened cartalagenous growth instead of a enlargened toe nail.
maybe its like an Elephant's foot. they walk on their toes like hoofed animals doe, but they have a cushion under their toe.
kinda like taking a rubber ball, holding it in your palm, and walking on that.
if their feet are hoof shaped, but are sensitive flesh instead of chiten then that would allow for shoes similer to human shoes and not shoes like Horseshoes.
and how did this thread go from Space Fleet effectivness to a discussion of Tau footware?
Grey Templar wrote:I think they have hooves, but the "Hoof" is more of a hardened cartalagenous growth instead of a enlargened toe nail.
maybe its like an Elephant's foot. they walk on their toes like hoofed animals doe, but they have a cushion under their toe.
kinda like taking a rubber ball, holding it in your palm, and walking on that.
if their feet are hoof shaped, but are sensitive flesh instead of chiten then that would allow for shoes similer to human shoes and not shoes like Horseshoes.
and how did this thread go from Space Fleet effectivness to a discussion of Tau footware?
Brother Coa did it.
None of the tau I have see have shoes, or even horse shoes. We can assume that they are extra hard, but that doesn't help when you land on an acid planet or when you step on a foot trap. (That war with the IG jungle warriors looks a little different now) I think it's a plot hole, or that the tau hate shoes.
Grey Templar wrote:I think they have hooves, but the "Hoof" is more of a hardened cartalagenous growth instead of a enlargened toe nail.
maybe its like an Elephant's foot. they walk on their toes like hoofed animals doe, but they have a cushion under their toe.
kinda like taking a rubber ball, holding it in your palm, and walking on that.
if their feet are hoof shaped, but are sensitive flesh instead of chiten then that would allow for shoes similer to human shoes and not shoes like Horseshoes.
and how did this thread go from Space Fleet effectivness to a discussion of Tau footware?
Brother Coa did it.
None of the tau I have see have shoes, or even horse shoes. We can assume that they are extra hard, but that doesn't help when you land on an acid planet or when you step on a foot trap. (That war with the IG jungle warriors looks a little different now) I think it's a plot hole, or that the tau hate shoes.
Guilty as charged... But in all seriousness I was just joking, people here took my joke a little to far....
Grey Templar wrote:I think they have hooves, but the "Hoof" is more of a hardened cartalagenous growth instead of a enlargened toe nail.
maybe its like an Elephant's foot. they walk on their toes like hoofed animals doe, but they have a cushion under their toe.
kinda like taking a rubber ball, holding it in your palm, and walking on that.
if their feet are hoof shaped, but are sensitive flesh instead of chiten then that would allow for shoes similer to human shoes and not shoes like Horseshoes.
and how did this thread go from Space Fleet effectivness to a discussion of Tau footware?
It simply did.
So back on topic, are we all in accord that the BT w/o support would be insufficient to destroy the Tau Empire?
Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.
If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.
If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.
If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.
1) Tau ships are extremely slow in comparison to the larger, better armed Imperial ships.
2) Tau do not, and will never have, access to the webway. Even the Imperium doesn't, aside from the odd Ordo Xenos Inquisitor working with Craftworlders at the time.
3) The Tau, pathetically small and primitive though they are, would still have enough numbers to take down a Space Marine chapter and its assets, even one with six times the resources of other chapters. They would probably be able to withstand every chapter invading, if the Guard and Navy stayed out of it, though they'd be irreparably damaged by such a war.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.
If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.
Wouldn't need too.
BT Chapter would be like 100 Rangers vs The entire continent of Asia.
The second the Tau realized this was a single force they would mobilize everything to destroy them. XV9s would rip Space Marines to shreds while XV88s made mockery of Land Raiders. The mighty Warships of the BT would succumb under the weight of millions of remoras and the Tau fleets.
Fire Warriors would flood the battlefield with billions of pulse rifle shots. To the Black Templars it would look like the end of times. Which would most likely give them a warm fuzzy feeling as they don't mind dying in battle.
There wouldn't even be hand to hand in the fighting, the Tau would have about 5 hammerheads for each BT on the battlefield. Fight would be brutal for the BT who would perish in a pretty metal fashion.
Brother Coa wrote:Yes, w/o support they cannot destroy the Tau Empire - but they could use hit and run tactics on less secured worlds and cripple the Empire from within.
If anything the Tau would hit-and-run the BT fleet. Especially if they use webway portals to teleport their hazard+crisis+broadside suits everywhere.
What the feth!!!!!!! And after that comes BA and they phase-shift to Tau worlds, slaughter everyone and then shift out With their new Gaussbolters...
BeefCakeSoup wrote:BT Chapter would be like 100 Rangers vs The entire continent of Asia.
More like a single grizzly bear versus every one of those ridiculous miniaturized dogs on Earth. It might cut through them like a grizzly bear through ridiculous miniaturized dogs, but eventually it would wear down and get eaten by chihuahua-sized poodles.
For comparison, the Imperial Military proper against the Tau would be more akin to the entire US military against a single, malnourished dog. How many soldiers would it take to put a round in its head? An equivalent percentage of the Imperial Guard would be equally overkill against the Tau.
The second the Tau realized this was a single force they would mobilize everything to destroy them. XV9s would rip Space Marines to shreds while XV88s made mockery of Land Raiders. The mighty Warships of the BT would succumb under the weight of millions of remoras and the Tau fleets.
Fire Warriors would flood the battlefield with billions of pulse rifle shots. To the Black Templars it would look like the end of times. Which would most likely give them a warm fuzzy feeling as they don't mind dying in battle.
There wouldn't even be hand to hand in the fighting, the Tau would have about 5 hammerheads for each BT on the battlefield. Fight would be brutal for the BT who would perish in a pretty metal fashion.
You're vastly overestimating the size of the Tau's military. This is a faction that can only afford to send a few thousand firewarriors to major conflicts, and only managed to stall a few regiments of Guard on one of their heavily fortified septs. While they'd dwarf the pathetic numbers of the Templars, whose total strength would be around two thirds that of the Damocles Gulf crusade (going off the stated "one marine equals twelve Guardsmen" ratio), they wouldn't have anywhere near the numbers you suggest.
I found the Tau footware discussion rather odd, and to show how little information we actually have here.
According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.
Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.
And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.
According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.
Sorry, but GW themselves are consistent, in their Tau maps and a sept never equals a sector.
A sept is at best like a single system with more than 1 inhabitable world.
But again, how about a source?
Because the map in Tau codices, the rulebook and any other place does not show a sept as a group of worlds or as a organizational unit of
X ? worlds.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.
Your imagination isn't identically with GW's background.
So either provide a source, or drop this nonsense of billions of firewarriors.
I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....
Spoiler:
a million
And since 3rd sphere happened in 998M41....
...go figure.
BaronIveagh wrote:
And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.
Disagreed with, by the fanboi group.
Disproven? Not so much.
BaronIveagh wrote:I found the Tau footware discussion rather odd, and to show how little information we actually have here.
According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.
Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.
And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.
But that doesn't make any sense Baron.
If the Tau could field an army of 10 billion Fire Warriors it would mean they would have to have at least 15 densely populated worlds. Which according to the experts is impossible, the Tau with their 1800s medical technology have only 8 million citizens per planet and roughly only 6 planets!
It also means they would have the capability of waging continental campaigns during planetary invasions, while also defending other parts of their borders with substantial, yet logical numbers.
Due to the fact that the Tau only use several thousand units per campaign, you are suggesting they can muster a force with billions, if a few thousand could perform on the level that they have thus far, a few million could conquer a vast area surrounding the Tau Empire, with a few billion contesting the segmentum at some point.
This cannot be allowed as fact! It contradicts 40K as a whole! What you are suggesting is that the Tau are an Empire looking to expand, which the codex and multiple sources all contradict!
----
That's pretty much the running debate Tau players have to deal with.
According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.
Sorry, but GW themselves are consistent, in their Tau maps and a sept never equals a sector.
A sept is at best like a single system with more than 1 inhabitable world.
But again, how about a source?
Because the map in Tau codices, the rulebook and any other place does not show a sept as a group of worlds or as a organizational unit of
X ? worlds.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.
Your imagination isn't identically with GW's background.
So either provide a source, or drop this nonsense of billions of firewarriors.
I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....
Spoiler:
a million
And since 3rd sphere happened in 998M41....
...go figure.
BaronIveagh wrote:
And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.
Disagreed with, by the fanboi group.
Disproven? Not so much.
Well, as to the number of fire warriors, the Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM, but with hundreds upon hundreds times more militarization per capita. The IoM would be somewhere around 0.01% militarization, whereas the Tau are 25% (50% if you count the air caste navy [plus an unknown number of Ethereals who fight at the front]) plus their billions of kroot (since all kroot are combat-capable) and an unknown number of stingwings, nicassar, billions of Gue'vesa etc. 10 billion is a conservative estimate in my opinion.
+ the almost entirely militarized Farsight Enclaves
Still wholly out-matched by the imperium, but 1 million is WAY underselling the total number of Tau.
I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....
Spoiler:
a million
Which entry is this, exactly? I can't seem to find it.
Unless I am mistaken he is referring to Aun'Vas entry. In which 1 million Fire Warriors were present in a ceremonial capacity on bended knee at the center of the Tau Empire.
Clearly, this mustering of full Tau might was the deciding factor at the battle of Nimbosa. Because Tau FTL is so inferior, the full might of the Tau military wasn't able to reach the planet in time to stop the reclamation effort sent by the Imperium.
Foolish Tau! Sending their whole army to one place! ha!
Try "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" at best. The planets that the Tau have taken from the Imperium were not densely populated to begin with. Nor were the entire populations going over, like some suggest.
The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted in the overall Tau military because the Farsight Enclaves refuse to have anything to do with the Tau Empire. They are, effectively, a self-governing provenance within the Tau Empire.
You also cannot count "25%" of the Air Caste as being "militarization", because the entirety of the Air Caste and Ethereal Castes are not militarized. You're looking at around 10% of the Air Caste being militarized, with the other 10% being civilian traffic, and the last 5% being associated with the Water Caste.
Plus your percentages are off anyways, because there's 5 Castes. 20%, maximum, if the entirety of the Castes militarization are somehow 'balanced'.
The "billions of Kroot" is also another fallacy, since only a small amount of Kroot are permanently serving with the Tau Empire. The majority are mercenaries, fighting elsewhere for pay.
BaronIveagh wrote:I found the Tau footware discussion rather odd, and to show how little information we actually have here.
According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.
Given the volume of space and the number of worlds it most likely contains, I have little problem seeing them fielding 10 billion firewarriors.
And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.
But that doesn't make any sense Baron.
If the Tau could field an army of 10 billion Fire Warriors it would mean they would have to have at least 15 densely populated worlds. Which according to the experts is impossible, the Tau with their 1800s medical technology have only 8 million citizens per planet and roughly only 6 planets!
It also means they would have the capability of waging continental campaigns during planetary invasions, while also defending other parts of their borders with substantial, yet logical numbers.
Due to the fact that the Tau only use several thousand units per campaign, you are suggesting they can muster a force with billions, if a few thousand could perform on the level that they have thus far, a few million could conquer a vast area surrounding the Tau Empire, with a few billion contesting the segmentum at some point.
This cannot be allowed as fact! It contradicts 40K as a whole! What you are suggesting is that the Tau are an Empire looking to expand, which the codex and multiple sources all contradict!
----
That's pretty much the running debate Tau players have to deal with.
I have absolutely no idea at all where you got "1800s medical tech" from.
Their Sept worlds contain well over a billion Tau each, and are completely self-sustaining.
They have 17 sept worlds according to my codex here, and over 100 planets total.
They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.
P
D
F.
This is where all the FW are at.
Plus there are going to be uncountable numbers of FW patrolling Tau space.
According to the Map in 40k 5E the Tau sept seems roughly equivalent to an Imperial sector, with 'lesser septs' being sparsely colonized sectors not fully under tau control.
Sorry, but GW themselves are consistent, in their Tau maps and a sept never equals a sector.
A sept is at best like a single system with more than 1 inhabitable world.
But again, how about a source?
Because the map in Tau codices, the rulebook and any other place does not show a sept as a group of worlds or as a organizational unit of
X ? worlds.
You really need to work on reading comprehension.
'According to the map in 40k 5E'. Pick up the 5th Edition 40k rulebook and page back to the fluff part of the book, in the section on the Tau, and look at the map. This is also more or less what the Deathwatch corebook also says.
1hadhq wrote:
So either provide a source, or drop this nonsense of billions of firewarriors.
I'll point to shadowsuns own entry, and the given number there for 3rd sphere.....
Spoiler:
a million
I reread shadowsun's entry and do not see this 'million' you refer to.
In Aun'va's entry it talks about a million. It also talks about a million of them being used to take just five worlds. Granted, that's less the the Imperial guard would use (and lose) but vastly more then the SM would use. And that's not the entire might of the Tau empire, that's what was sent on one expedition.
1hadhq wrote:
Disagreed with, by the fanboi group.
Disproven? Not so much.
Well, we've only sited... pretty much all of the rulebook fluff, BL novels, rulebook crunch... they all pretty much agree that tau ships produced post Hero class are easily on par with IN, and that it's a long trip up out of a star's gravity well to make a 'safe' warp jump, even for speedy Marine ships.
Frankly, though, Rick Priestly, Andy Hoare, and Andy Chambers could all post on here that I'm right and a few people would still try to argue with them.
It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.
Try "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" at best. The planets that the Tau have taken from the Imperium were not densely populated to begin with. Nor were the entire populations going over, like some suggest.
The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted in the overall Tau military because the Farsight Enclaves refuse to have anything to do with the Tau Empire. They are, effectively, a self-governing provenance within the Tau Empire.
You also cannot count "25%" of the Air Caste as being "militarization", because the entirety of the Air Caste and Ethereal Castes are not militarized. You're looking at around 10% of the Air Caste being militarized, with the other 10% being civilian traffic, and the last 5% being associated with the Water Caste.
Plus your percentages are off anyways, because there's 5 Castes. 20%, maximum, if the entirety of the Castes militarization are somehow 'balanced'.
The "billions of Kroot" is also another fallacy, since only a small amount of Kroot are permanently serving with the Tau Empire. The majority are mercenaries, fighting elsewhere for pay.
The VAST majority of kroot serve the Empire. Only isolated pockets of kroot serve outside the Empire.
As to the percentages, the Ethereal caste has fewer members, as 1 leader per four followers would be complete idiocy. There are usually only a few dozen per fleet.
"associated with the water caste" IS civilian transportation. And civvies wouldn't need to fly as much as modern humans do. Each Tau has a job, and performs the job. There are no vacations in the 41st millenium. And each city is surrounded by it's own farmlands, so shipping wouldn't be a necessity either.
And yes, entire populaces join the Tau. The water caste works slowly, over generations, and makes the people comfortable around them. Plus, there have been SEVERAL worlds joining the Tau.
And yes, the Farsight Enclaves can be counted. If you are waging war on the Tau, you'll have to go through his fortress worlds. They are not the DA, where the traitors take absolute priority.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.
The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20
Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.
im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.
And?
By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.
In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".
"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.
The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.
So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!
iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.
1. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau Empire? No.
2. Could the Black Templars destory a few planets in a shock attack? Yes.
1's Reason is simple, on a logistical scale it would cost other fronts dearly. So saying they could is like saying if my hands weren't tied I could punch you. Cool, good thing your hands are tied.
2's Reason is also simple, the Black Templars excel at combat and have 10,000 years of proven doctrine behind them.
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
But that doesn't make any sense Baron.
If the Tau could field an army of 10 billion Fire Warriors it would mean they would have to have at least 15 densely populated worlds. Which according to the experts is impossible, the Tau with their 1800s medical technology have only 8 million citizens per planet and roughly only 6 planets!
It also means they would have the capability of waging continental campaigns during planetary invasions, while also defending other parts of their borders with substantial, yet logical numbers.
Due to the fact that the Tau only use several thousand units per campaign, you are suggesting they can muster a force with billions, if a few thousand could perform on the level that they have thus far, a few million could conquer a vast area surrounding the Tau Empire, with a few billion contesting the segmentum at some point.
This cannot be allowed as fact! It contradicts 40K as a whole! What you are suggesting is that the Tau are an Empire looking to expand, which the codex and multiple sources all contradict!
----
That's pretty much the running debate Tau players have to deal with.
Citation for 1800s medical technology please. Nothing I've read indicates it's lacking and everything I've read points to Tau tech in all areas being at least equal to IoM tech and exceeding it some areas (agriculture being one, Tau codex page 20).
As for population; I think we'll not get a solid estimate; however, page 5 of the codex deals with the 3rd phase expansion and tells of Shadowsun taking a "cluster" of IoM worlds and a human traitor assisting by convincing several worlds to surrender without a shot.
As for fighting forces; pages 22 and 23 of the Tau codex talk about the formations that Tau use.
1. Team: (6-12 firewarriors and their devilfish) or ad hoc units like IoM kill teams.
2. Cadre: Up to 6 firewarrior teams plus a number of stealth, battlesuit and pathfinder teams. A "handful" of hammerhead tanks and other vehicles. Auxiliary units like kroot and vespid. The sample on page 22 has a force of 83+ individuals (including vehicles).
3. Contingent: grouping of 3-6 Cadres.
4. Battle: a grouping of several contingents (number unspecified in the codex).
5. Command: all individuals belonging to a specific caste on a specific world. Led by the most senior commander.
6. Coalition: All 4 commands drawn together for a specific task (i.e. a force sent to conquer and colonize a new world).
I didn't see anything in Shadowsun's entry with numbers.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.
im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.
And? By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.
In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".
"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.
The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.
So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!
You're right, all they did was take down a 75 foot tall warmachine with fight-ending firepower with a skyray tank.
PDF refers to the primary military defense of a world.
The FW there were the primary military defense of a world.
wikipedia wrote:Garrison (various spellings) (from the French garnison, itself from the verb garnir, "to equip") is the collective term for a body of troops stationed in a particular location, originally to guard it, but now often simply using it as a home base. The garrison is usually a city, town, fort, castle or similar. "Garrison town" is a common expression for any town that has a military base nearby.
Try "hundreds of thousands" or "millions" at best. The planets that the Tau have taken from the Imperium were not densely populated to begin with. Nor were the entire populations going over, like some suggest.
The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted in the overall Tau military because the Farsight Enclaves refuse to have anything to do with the Tau Empire. They are, effectively, a self-governing provenance within the Tau Empire.
You also cannot count "25%" of the Air Caste as being "militarization", because the entirety of the Air Caste and Ethereal Castes are not militarized. You're looking at around 10% of the Air Caste being militarized, with the other 10% being civilian traffic, and the last 5% being associated with the Water Caste.
Plus your percentages are off anyways, because there's 5 Castes. 20%, maximum, if the entirety of the Castes militarization are somehow 'balanced'.
The "billions of Kroot" is also another fallacy, since only a small amount of Kroot are permanently serving with the Tau Empire. The majority are mercenaries, fighting elsewhere for pay.
The VAST majority of kroot serve the Empire. Only isolated pockets of kroot serve outside the Empire.
Wrong.
As to the percentages, the Ethereal caste has fewer members, as 1 leader per four followers would be complete idiocy. There are usually only a few dozen per fleet.
Which still makes your numbers wrong. Just because one Caste has fewer members does not change the fact that your militarization numbers used the idea of 4 Castes, not 5.
"associated with the water caste" IS civilian transportation. And civvies wouldn't need to fly as much as modern humans do. Each Tau has a job, and performs the job. There are no vacations in the 41st millenium. And each city is surrounded by it's own farmlands, so shipping wouldn't be a necessity either.
The Water Caste do not operate entirely within the Tau Empire. Clearly someone as knowledgeable about the Tau as you should know that they have fleets that operate entirely outside of Tau space and serve as go-betweens for the Empire and the worlds they're hoping to claim.
And yes, entire populaces join the Tau.
No, they don't. More on that in a second though.
The water caste works slowly, over generations, and makes the people comfortable around them. Plus, there have been SEVERAL worlds joining the Tau.
There have been the governments of several worlds joining the Tau. Governments do not necessarily speak for the populace.
The fact that there are pro-Imperial resistance movements on some Tau held worlds should be proof enough of this. The fact that the Tau have to restrict the movements of the populace and force the Gue'vasa to earn their trust to operate their weaponry should also tell you this.
The Water Caste, by the by, doesn't "make the people comfortable around them". Their goal is to undermine Imperial doctrine on a planet and begin offering technology and trade that is done in such a way to hopefully spark a revolution.
And yes, the Farsight Enclaves can be counted. If you are waging war on the Tau, you'll have to go through his fortress worlds. They are not the DA, where the traitors take absolute priority.
No, they can't. The Farsight Enclaves cannot be counted simply because this is about the Tau Empire.
Not the Tau race as a whole. If you're going to be pedantic and split hairs about every single little bit of terminology, I have no problems repaying in kind.
iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars. Would they be able to conquer the whole Empire? No, but they would certainly do a massive amount of damage to the Tau. Can the Imperium destroy the Tau? Yes, absolutely, and fairly easily too. They have more than enough resources to over-kill them, no question about it.
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.
It would take months if they want to wipe out the Tau and damn the consequences of destroying habitable planets.
That's what you're constantly discounting. The only shield the Tau have right now is that they're inhabiting planets that the Imperium could colonize.
The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20
"Deserted" counts those who were captured. Nobody "deserted" on Taros.
Someone who was wounded(by the by, majority of the wounded were captured) and then captured was considered to have "deserted".
Those who surrendered were considered "deserters".
The majority of those individuals the Tau killed by forcing them to work in the mines.
iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars.
Ah, yes, the fanboy card. I hear it a lot. I'm a space marine fanboy when defending them from nerfs/stupidity in bfg, I'm a tau fanboy when pointing out the flaws and inaccuracies in an epeen waving competition, I'm an chaos fanboy when pointing out that the Imperium can't actually cleanse the Eye of Terror, the list goes on... I'm waiting for someone to play the Godfrey, since that's where this is heading.
Space marines do lose, on occasion you know, even the Space Marine legions could be stalled and they were much more powerful and technologically advanced then current BTs.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.
I know, I've seen them try to argue with the fluff authors before, and usually fail.
Kanluwen wrote:
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!
Or a single marine can do with his power fist and plot armor.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.
im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.
And?
By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.
In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".
"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.
The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.
So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!
You're right, all they did was take down a 75 foot tall warmachine with fight-ending firepower with a skyray tank.
Cite a source. Because the only times I've seen Tau mentioned taking down Titans was with Mantas or Tiger Sharks with railguns.
So I'm calling bull until then.
PDF refers to the primary military defense of a world.
No, it doesn't. It refers to a specific organization, equipped in a specific way, and trained in a specific way for a specific task.
The FW there were the primary military defense of a world.
And yet, they're still not "PDF". They are a garrison.
wikipedia wrote:Garrison (various spellings) (from the French garnison, itself from the verb garnir, "to equip") is the collective term for a body of troops stationed in a particular location, originally to guard it, but now often simply using it as a home base. The garrison is usually a city, town, fort, castle or similar. "Garrison town" is a common expression for any town that has a military base nearby.
Gee, it's almost like you're not getting this.
A PDF IS a garrison.
You are wrong.
A Planetary Defense Force is a garrison, but it is also a specific organization. When you use the 'all caps' version, you are comparing the Tau Fire Warriors who were stationed on that planet to the 'meh' trained individuals and underequipped individuals which make up the majority of the Imperial PDFs.
This is a fallacious comparison. The Fire Warriors there would have been trained and equipped to the same standard as the Fire Warriors serving against the Orks on the outskirts of the Tau Empire. This makes them a 'garrison force of Fire Warriors', which would make them--if you're going to insist on comparing them to something "Interior Guard"--not "PDF".
BaronIveagh wrote:And, again, we have Sir Psudo insisting that the SM would outrun and out fight the Tau fleet all the time, which has been long since disproven both in fluff and crunch.
They're faster yes, but while individually superior they would be hopelessly outnumbered in a straight-up fight. The Imperial Navy, on the other hand, would have little trouble finding the spare ships to bring enough firepower and Guardsmen to eradicate the whole of the Tau, were they not currently busy dealing with the Tyranids, who've managed to destroy a whopping .02% of the Imperium.
Their ground forces can't be anywhere near even one billion strong. Were there even that many, and so much as half of them were combat-ready, they'd have sufficient force to garrison every one of their worlds with five million firewarriors. Naturally they wouldn't spread them evenly, so they'd mostly be concentrated on septs and borderworlds, since most colonies would be either unimportant or otherwise insulated within the Empire. Because most worlds wouldn't warrant a sizable garrison, that means they'd have more to spare on important border conflicts. What we see with those for which we have numbers places the numbers they commit to defending their borders in the low thousands per world, well under a thousandth of what even a total active strength of 500 million would allow as a baseline garrison. What this suggests is a total strength in the low tens of millions, most of which is concentrated on the sept worlds. The "there must be tens of billions of Tau, and all the castes have to be roughly equal, so there must be ten billion firewarriors" argument lacks any solid foundation, for total numbers (the Tau have one ten thousandth the number of planets the Imperium has, yes, but only a handful of those are even as populated as the lower end for Imperial worlds, and the rest are just minor outposts), evidence that the castes have remotely similar numbers to one another, or even evidence that any significant portion of the fire caste meets the standards for military service.
iproxtaco wrote:It's just Tau fanboys (wont name any, but we all know who they are) over-exaggerating the Tau's size and military capability, whilst massively down-playing the capabilities of the Black Templars.
Ah, yes, the fanboy card. I hear it a lot. I'm a space marine fanboy when defending them from nerfs/stupidity in bfg, I'm a tau fanboy when pointing out the flaws and inaccuracies in an epeen waving competition, I'm an chaos fanboy when pointing out that the Imperium can't actually cleanse the Eye of Terror, the list goes on... I'm waiting for someone to play the Godfrey, since that's where this is heading.
Space marines do lose, on occasion you know, even the Space Marine legions could be stalled and they were much more powerful and technologically advanced then current BTs.
Space Marines do lose, nobody's debating that. The idea that the Tau will have the entirety of their fleet at any given world to prevent a full-scale Black Templar Crusade(with all of the Black Templar fleet and forces present), and that they would somehow be able to stop the Black Templars every single time is what's being debated.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.
I know, I've seen them try to argue with the fluff authors before, and usually fail.
Most of this is the problem simply that each author has a different view of the world. Andy Chambers helped create the Tau as they were, but at the same time he's helping create who they are becoming.
Andy Hoare is just...special. I don't dislike the guy, but I do dislike some of the books he's written--especially regarding the Tau, since it's so blatantly exactly what people accuse the SM books of being.
Kanluwen wrote:
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!
Or a single marine can do with his power fist and plot armor.
I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.
Kanluwen wrote:
There have been the governments of several worlds joining the Tau. Governments do not necessarily speak for the populace.
The fact that there are pro-Imperial resistance movements on some Tau held worlds should be proof enough of this. The fact that the Tau have to restrict the movements of the populace and force the Gue'vasa to earn their trust to operate their weaponry should also tell you this.
The problem there is it's not really clear how numerous these movements are. There's a difference between a movement that's a significant portion of the population base, and one that's fifteen angry men with some knowledge of improvised munitions. And the Imperium has problems with Pro-tau guerrillas as well, so...
Kanluwen wrote:
It would take months if they want to wipe out the Tau and damn the consequences of destroying habitable planets.
That's what you're constantly discounting. The only shield the Tau have right now is that they're inhabiting planets that the Imperium could colonize.
In fluff Imperial planners have stated they could win, but it could be a decades long meat grinder on par with the blood bath that was the Sabbat Crusade, since the Imperial supply chain would be rather long and the Tau could freely reenforce from near by worlds.
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Kanluwen wrote:
I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.
BaronIveagh wrote:
In Aun'va's entry it talks about a million. It also talks about a million of them being used to take just five worlds. Granted, that's less the the Imperial guard would use (and lose)
That's about ten times the largest figure given for the Damocles Gulf crusade (nineteen regiments, though outside this thread I've never seen it placed at more than two, and Lexicanum only names two, with no mention of an additional seventeen; it also only lists five ships, and no titans)...
It was moderately defended with ground forces and had a comperable fleet in orbit comprised of a retreating fleet and a local orbital defense + fleet.
In orbit the Tau were defeated in a narrow battle that left the Tau without orbital assests and the Imperium utterly crippled with few cap ships and only enough fighters to escort landing craft and protect supply lines. This left them at the mercy of any outside forces that may have arrived to aid in the conflict. Later the chance to blockcade them was passed when the Tau, being an enlightened race allowed them to leave.
A more detailed campaign description is on war wiki and pretty well sourced. It displays how early Imperial victories were also more eventful than some of the single sentence dex descriptions.
Conflict was pretty brutal with some serious wins on both sides. Toward the end of the ground fighting, a capable Guard leader had a shot at routing about 15,000 FW if im not mistaken. He halted his advance and opted for a withdrawal instead though, a wise choice considering his momentum was a temporary push dependant on aerial assets that had a limited window before having to return to the orbital fleet.
Well, as to the number of fire warriors, the Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM, but with hundreds upon hundreds times more militarization per capita. The IoM would be somewhere around 0.01% militarization, whereas the Tau are 25% (50% if you count the air caste navy [plus an unknown number of Ethereals who fight at the front]) plus their billions of kroot (since all kroot are combat-capable) and an unknown number of stingwings, nicassar, billions of Gue'vesa etc. 10 billion is a conservative estimate in my opinion.
+ the almost entirely militarized Farsight Enclaves
Still wholly out-matched by the imperium, but 1 million is WAY underselling the total number of Tau.
Did I say total number or did I say 3rd sphere expansion?
Secondly, until you provide a source for a Tau worlds population and a reasonable militarization level, that is based on what GW wrote and not on your assumption that 4 castes = 25% firewarriors, I'll certainly take your estimate as personal opinion, but never as numbers to draw conclusion from.
Thirdly, vespids have a single home world, nicassar do not enter the 40k background of the tabletop in any size to make them more than a sidenote.. Gue'vesa are dropped as concept, try to get fluff or lists from GW now. Kroot live a nomads, and those aren't numerous.
Its pretty much presented by GW as Tau firewarriors and a few additional Auxilaries of Kroot or Vespids.
Thus many Tau, only a few other xenos when its about their military.
Lets see: if 32840000 hive worlds are the IoM and 16 septs are the Tau, this would be 2052500:1
Either the IoM only counts the ecosphere of their planets as its own and the Tau count the whole space they have ever seen as their own, or you got the size wrong.
Remember: GW never told you the scale of their maps. (and I doubt there is any..).
Kanluwen wrote:
There have been the governments of several worlds joining the Tau. Governments do not necessarily speak for the populace.
The fact that there are pro-Imperial resistance movements on some Tau held worlds should be proof enough of this. The fact that the Tau have to restrict the movements of the populace and force the Gue'vasa to earn their trust to operate their weaponry should also tell you this.
The problem there is it's not really clear how numerous these movements are. There's a difference between a movement that's a significant portion of the population base, and one that's fifteen angry men with some knowledge of improvised munitions. And the Imperium has problems with Pro-tau guerrillas as well, so...
Yeah, but by that same logic it doesn't mean those worlds are wholly supporting the Tau.
Kanluwen wrote:
It would take months if they want to wipe out the Tau and damn the consequences of destroying habitable planets.
That's what you're constantly discounting. The only shield the Tau have right now is that they're inhabiting planets that the Imperium could colonize.
In fluff Imperial planners have stated they could win, but it could be a decades long meat grinder on par with the blood bath that was the Sabbat Crusade, since the Imperial supply chain would be rather long and the Tau could freely reenforce from near by worlds.
Which is why I made the important caveat of "destroying habitable planets".
If the Imperium really wanted the Tau dead, the Inquisition has Kill-Ships which can destroy the worlds they're on.
The only real solution the Imperium has, right now, if they want to eradicate the Tau is to either destroy an entire region's worth of habitable planets or a lengthy ground campaign on an enemy's home turf.
Losing habitable worlds doesn't sit too well with the Imperium. It's why Kryptmann got in such trouble for his 'idea' regarding the Tyranid Hive Fleets and stopping them.
Kanluwen wrote:
I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.
Storm of Iron
I said "for awhile".
And Storm of Iron was terrible. So it's got that going for it!
During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.
6,000 angry BT with IG and IN support would cut through the outer sphere worlds in weeks.
I would imagine that the Tau would then heavily fortify a few key worlds which the BT would hit like a hammer, shattering a large amount of the overall Tau war effort in relatively short order. Perhaps a couple of months at most?
With the main response of the Tau crushed the BT would then strike at the core worlds, driving wedges between the Tau worlds, fracturing their ability to respond in force and forcing them into pockets of resistance which would then be crushed one at a time.
SilverMK2 wrote:During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.
6,000 angry BT with IG and IN support would cut through the outer sphere worlds in weeks.
Wait, so Fulgrim wipes out a single, high tech planet with 10000 marines, so the BT can take 6000 and wipe out 100? Not following your reasoning.
BaronIveagh wrote:
In Aun'va's entry it talks about a million. It also talks about a million of them being used to take just five worlds. Granted, that's less the the Imperial guard would use (and lose)
That's about ten times the largest figure given for the Damocles Gulf crusade (nineteen regiments, though outside this thread I've never seen it placed at more than two, and Lexicanum only names two, with no mention of an additional seventeen; it also only lists five ships, and no titans)...
Actually per planet, that's only about twice as many. (200k vs 95k) Though, again, with the Gaurd it's hard to say: guard units patterned after Cadian ones are about 5k men per regiment. Kreig Regiments can be, if the figures for vraks are to be believed, almost 250,000 troopers on their own. So it depends on who the unit is patterend how many men per regiment.
Kanluwen wrote:Considering Andy Hoare's a well-known Tau fanboy, Andy Chambers no longer works directly for the Studio and hasn't for years(but is coming back in a freelance background writing capacity, apparently), and Rick Priestly operated more as an overall 'monitor of fiction' ensuring that the canon 'fit'--there'd be a reason for people to argue with them.
im2randomghgh wrote:They only field thousands of FW per campaign because they defend their worlds well. The PDF at Dal'yth prime held the damocles gulf crusade at bay, alone, and managed to evacuate all civvies, alone, and killed a titan, alone, and were such a threat the Imperials almost used exterminatus.
And?
By your standards the Cadian "PDF" is the best PDF, ever, since they stalemated Abaddon's invading groundforces when he had space superiority.
In this case, you're not using the term "PDF" correctly. You're looking for the word "garrison".
"PDF" is used in 40k to describe moderately trained, moderately equipped human forces that are permanently stationed on their homeworld. They're a great Planetary Defense Force in that they're mainly expected to deal with uprisings on the planet and minor incursions from wayward Xenos threats, cults, et all. When things get more serious--the Imperial Guard get called in.
The Tau don't have a 'PDF' in that sense. They have what matches Cadia's PDF--an "Interior Guard" consisting of full Guard Regiments that have served in full campaigns, but now are held planetside as a garrison.
So to say "Tau PDF" did all that is a ridiculous argument. You're talking about a Fire Caste contingent that was on the planet, and had access to Manta Destroyers, Barracudas, et al in their defensive operations.
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!
You're right, all they did was take down a 75 foot tall warmachine with fight-ending firepower with a skyray tank.
Cite a source. Because the only times I've seen Tau mentioned taking down Titans was with Mantas or Tiger Sharks with railguns.
So I'm calling bull until then.
PDF refers to the primary military defense of a world.
No, it doesn't. It refers to a specific organization, equipped in a specific way, and trained in a specific way for a specific task.
The FW there were the primary military defense of a world.
And yet, they're still not "PDF". They are a garrison.
wikipedia wrote:Garrison (various spellings) (from the French garnison, itself from the verb garnir, "to equip") is the collective term for a body of troops stationed in a particular location, originally to guard it, but now often simply using it as a home base. The garrison is usually a city, town, fort, castle or similar. "Garrison town" is a common expression for any town that has a military base nearby.
Gee, it's almost like you're not getting this.
A PDF IS a garrison.
You are wrong.
A Planetary Defense Force is a garrison, but it is also a specific organization. When you use the 'all caps' version, you are comparing the Tau Fire Warriors who were stationed on that planet to the 'meh' trained individuals and underequipped individuals which make up the majority of the Imperial PDFs.
This is a fallacious comparison. The Fire Warriors there would have been trained and equipped to the same standard as the Fire Warriors serving against the Orks on the outskirts of the Tau Empire. This makes them a 'garrison force of Fire Warriors', which would make them--if you're going to insist on comparing them to something "Interior Guard"--not "PDF".
1. In Savage Scars, the Tau markerlighted a Warhound till it was pretty much all red then used non-direct missile fire to destroy it.
2. I got my definition of PDF from the warhammer40k wiki.
3. They are a force meant to defend a planet. A Planetary Defense Force.
4. It is all caps because it is an acronym.
Either way, we are arguing semantics. My point was proven, as the Tau do dedicate the vast majority of it's Firewarriors to defending planets, call these armies whatever you will.
As for the Water Caste having pilots, the Water Caste are accompanied by hunter cadres wherever they go. In Courage and Honour, There was a small scouting army of Tau, just an escort for a water/ethereal caste party negociating with the governor, that took The Imperial Guard (forget how many regiments), the PDF, the Arbites, and a full company of Ultrasmurfs to defeat. A Scout army.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kanluwen wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
The "Titan" they destroyed, by the by, was a Warhound. What a great accomplishment for the Tau, they brought stupidly overwhelming firepower to take down a Scout Titan when the Guard can do the same thing using standard tanks!
Or a single marine can do with his power fist and plot armor.
I haven't seen a single Marine with or without plot armor do it for awhile.
I've seen Terminator Squads do it though.
In Storm of Iron a single space marine climbed the outside of a titan and killed it's crew.
SilverMK2 wrote:During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.
It still took him a month. With an entire legion, and all the starships under his command who were (and still are) superior to their current counterparts. And that was one world.
SilverMK2 wrote:During the Horus Heresy Fulgrim completely destroys an entire high technology planet in a month, wiping out an entire race with 10,000 (ish) marines.
It still took him a month. With an entire legion, and all the starships under his command who were (and still are) superior to their current counterparts. And that was one world.
And there were only a few cities too. Nowhere to hide in between them, only ocean.
Nerivant wrote:Wait, so Fulgrim wipes out a single, high tech planet with 10000 marines, so the BT can take 6000 and wipe out 100? Not following your reasoning.
The reasoning being that the majority of Tau worlds are essentially uninhabited as far as Imperial worlds go. The Tau race simply does not have the numbers to defend each world sufficiently to protect against 6000 marines and associated Imperial Guard regiments and navy.
Thus the Imperium does not have to attack all 100 worlds, it only has to draw the Tau into battle on a handful of them to weaken their military strength sufficiently that the rest of their planets will essentially be undefended.
If you think, most battles are fought without the SM being present and it is very rare for SM to fight in warzones. Off the top of my head Armageddon and Macragge are some of the few planets which has seen any significant number of SM fighting as a combined force.
Macragge had 2 full companies of Ultramarines (including almost their entire first company) and "elements" of 2 others and they shattered an entire hive fleet on their defenses. With, at the very most, 500 marines.
IA:3, page 146 gives details of the numbers of forces involved. The Taros force was a coalition which means a gathering of all of the activated units of one Sept world but it only gives the numbers of firewarriors, not the other 3 castes involved. At least 100 hunter Cadres.
Firewarriors: 8-9,000
Kroot: 5,000
Traiter Humans that fought on the side of the Tau: about 8,000.
So based on that; figure each Tau Sept world can produce a like amount of troops would mean a combined force (barring kroot, vespid, gue'vesa), you can get a general idea.
im2randomghgh wrote:And there were only a few cities too. Nowhere to hide in between them, only ocean.
There were also sub-oceanic cities.
And as far as it goes in the narrative, every single entity on that planet was engaged in the fighting, having been modified to a greater or lesser extent to do so.
IA:3, page 146 gives details of the numbers of forces involved. The Taros force was a coalition which means a gathering of all of the activated units of one Sept world but it only gives the numbers of firewarriors, not the other 3 castes involved. At least 100 hunter Cadres.
Firewarriors: 8-9,000
Kroot: 5,000
Traiter Humans that fought on the side of the Tau: about 8,000.
So based on that; figure each Tau Sept world can produce a like amount of troops would mean a combined force (barring kroot, vespid, gue'vesa), you can get a general idea.
IA:3, page 146 gives details of the numbers of forces involved. The Taros force was a coalition which means a gathering of all of the activated units of one Sept world but it only gives the numbers of firewarriors, not the other 3 castes involved. At least 100 hunter Cadres. Firewarriors: 8-9,000 Kroot: 5,000 Traiter Humans that fought on the side of the Tau: about 8,000.
So based on that; figure each Tau Sept world can produce a like amount of troops would mean a combined force (barring kroot, vespid, gue'vesa), you can get a general idea.
So nowhere even close to a single billion.
Not if you take the coalition on Taros as a representative example. Bear in mind that they won't leave a sept world completely undefended so add another....20%? to that number to be fair.
A billion is a huge exaggeration of the probable number on Firewarriors the Tau has. I would put the number at 2 million, if every single available warrior was raised, taking into account the greater number garrisoned on major Sept worlds like you said.
Nerivant wrote:Considering they have a much more than that in XV8 suits alone... a great one.
However, 6000 marines would also be supported by an appropriate number of guardsmen and navy ships. It would quite literally be a force not seen since the original crusades.
Nerivant wrote:Considering they have a much more than that in XV8 suits alone... a great one.
However, 6000 marines would also be supported by an appropriate number of guardsmen and navy ships. It would quite literally be a force not seen since the original crusades.
And here I thought BT crusades were very self-contained.
I'm going to go with the BTs. During the HH entire sectors where crushed in a week with just a few hundred Marines. 6,000 Astartes is a massive force even during The Great Crusade. Tau-like enclaves were wiped out every other week at that time and this would be no different.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM
Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?
Nerivant wrote:Considering they have a much more than that in XV8 suits alone... a great one.
However, 6000 marines would also be supported by an appropriate number of guardsmen and navy ships. It would quite literally be a force not seen since the original crusades.
And here I thought BT crusades were very self-contained.
There's a difference between being self sufficient and having support.
The Black Templars would be able to sustain themselves, being a large fleet-based chapter. They would, if they ever decided to launch a crusade against the Tau, be supported by a whole lot of Guard regiments, a whole lot of Imperial Navy ships, certainly MORE than enough to destroy the Tau, although it would be lengthy, cost is not a factor with The Imperium.
Typing this I realised you said contained, which is different, in which case no, they are not.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.
The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20
Wit so many Commisars? I don't think so...
And don't use Taros please. Taros is a peace of C*** that was given to the Tau to have at least 1 victory over Imperium.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM
Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?
The fact that Tau have about 100 worlds, and the Imperium has about a 1,000,000, therefore, the Tau is 1:10,000 the size of the Imperium. In population the ratio is even bigger, as few Tau worlds are densely populated, and even then they are nothing compared to an average Imperial civilised world.
Nerivant wrote:Wait, so Fulgrim wipes out a single, high tech planet with 10000 marines, so the BT can take 6000 and wipe out 100? Not following your reasoning.
The reasoning being that the majority of Tau worlds are essentially uninhabited as far as Imperial worlds go. The Tau race simply does not have the numbers to defend each world sufficiently to protect against 6000 marines and associated Imperial Guard regiments and navy.
Thus the Imperium does not have to attack all 100 worlds, it only has to draw the Tau into battle on a handful of them to weaken their military strength sufficiently that the rest of their planets will essentially be undefended.
If you think, most battles are fought without the SM being present and it is very rare for SM to fight in warzones. Off the top of my head Armageddon and Macragge are some of the few planets which has seen any significant number of SM fighting as a combined force.
Macragge had 2 full companies of Ultramarines (including almost their entire first company) and "elements" of 2 others and they shattered an entire hive fleet on their defenses. With, at the very most, 500 marines.
What chance then do the Tau have against 6000?
The Marines at Ultramar did exactly nothing worthwhile. The Imperial Navy was responsible for the destruction of the fleet, and the conventional forces Calgar abandoned on Ultramar were the ones to rout the tyranids on the surface, while the Marines there just ran and hid in holes in the ground, where they died to no particular end.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I'm going to go with the BTs. During the HH entire sectors where crushed in a week with just a few hundred Marines. 6,000 Astartes is a massive force even during The Great Crusade. Tau-like enclaves were wiped out every other week at that time and this would be no different.
6,000 Space Marines is roughly equal to 72,000 Guardsmen. The apparent figures for the Damocles Gulf Crusade were 100,000 Guardsmen. It cut through the Tau worlds like a grizzly bear through miniaturized dogs, but in the end it stalled out on a heavily fortified sept world, much like the proverbial grizzly bear becoming worn out and getting eaten by ridiculous poodles the size of chihuahuas in its sleep.
im2randomghgh wrote: Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.
The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20
The Imperium has more than enough resources to destroy the Tau, and it would take about 5 years. 40% is wishful thinking. I'd say about 0.05%, and those would be very isolated and under very specific circumstances.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Wait, 6000 Space Marines are equal to 72000 Guardsmen? Since when was a single chapter worth less than the average regiment? Never, a single chapter is worth about 50 regiments.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.
The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20
Wit so many Commisars? I don't think so...
And don't use Taros please. Taros is a peace of C*** that was given to the Tau to have at least 1 victory over Imperium.
It doesn't cease to exist because you don't like it.
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.
The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20
Don't just pull numbers out of the air. Where in IA does it give you those numbers?
'According to the map in 40k 5E'. Pick up the 5th Edition 40k rulebook and page back to the fluff part of the book, in the section on the Tau, and look at the map.
I don't.
You seem to.
5th ed rulebook shows nice icons. Still does not disassemble these into sun, planet a,b,c,etc.
But the Tau codex tells us these names right there on the rulebook map belong to planets.
I just take it as is, if we know 1 planet we don't know if its a lonely one or has 1 or more inhabitable planets in this system of at least
1 planet and a sun.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Well, we've only sited... pretty much all of the rulebook fluff, BL novels, rulebook crunch...
I see. You believe you cited somthing somewhere and I have to search it.....
Too bad I am not willing to browse the whole interwebz to find it. So at which site and thread was this again?
Brother Coa wrote:Wit so many Commisars? I don't think so...
And don't use Taros please. Taros is a peace of C*** that was given to the Tau to have at least 1 victory over Imperium.
Sure, we'll take away what little fluff is available so you can conveniently win the argument.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM
Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?
The fact that Tau have about 100 worlds, and the Imperium has about a 1,000,000, therefore, the Tau is 1:10,000 the size of the Imperium. In population the ratio is even bigger, as few Tau worlds are densely populated, and even then they are nothing compared to an average Imperial civilised world.
I am not talking about worlds, but number of Light Years when it comes to territory...
But never mind, there is nowhere even a mention of that...
im2randomghgh wrote:
Except it would take decades and consume massive resources they don't have, plus 40% of the troops would desert and joint the Tau.
The ratio of kill:wounded:deserted on taros was 10:15:20
Don't just pull numbers out of the air. Where in IA does it give you those numbers?
Brother Coa wrote:
I am not talking about worlds, but number of Light Years when it comes to territory...
But never mind, there is nowhere even a mention of that...
The number of worlds is in the Tau codex where it also mentions that the number of habitable planets within that section of space is higher than in the rest of the galaxy. One may extrapolate from this that though the area of space controlled is small, the number of worlds under tau control is fairly high, offsetting it a bit. Still nowhere near the "millions" that the IoM controls.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Brother Coa wrote:
agnosto wrote:
Sure, we'll take away what little fluff is available so you can conveniently win the argument.
uhhhh. no.
Nimbosa Zeist Kronus Kaurava Targa Gravalax Lagan
uhhhh. YES.
None of which are dealt with in nearly as much detail as Taros.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:So do Tau have 100 worlds or 12? I've heard both.
It's around 100.
On a map?
In a codex?
Maybe a source would help those who ask for it.
Secondly, could we please get of this idea of engagements in 40k happening in a vaccuum?
The nids will not stop eating their way through the eastern fringe.
Orks will pop up wherever a fight gets big enough to warrant attention.
Necrons may be stirred up by the noise.
DE come to grab some slaves ( from both parties obviously )
Eldar may care or not.
Thus every defender in this galaxy has to deal with more than just 1 attacker.
To redirect everything against the BT won't end well...
iproxtaco wrote:Wait, 6000 Space Marines are equal to 72000 Guardsmen? Since when was a single chapter worth less than the average regiment? Never, a single chapter is worth about 50 regiments.
One Space Marine is stated to be the equal of around twelve Guardsmen in capability. That means that a chapter is only around twice the strength of the average Black Library regiment, and around half that of a Codex: IG regiment. It also means the total strength of all the Space Marines together works out to under a millionth that of the Guard as a whole, seeing as how they're outnumbered by somewhere between ten million and thirty million to one...
The Tau empire encompasses a dense yet astrographically small area of space. Many hundreds of star systems exist within this region, and an unusually high proportion harbour an environment conducive to life. As the Tau steadily expand the borders of their empire, they continue to encounter other races. The empire now encompasses over twenty septs - fully developed Tau systems -and a large number of vassal alien homeworlds. The population of these worlds are fully integrated in to the empire, each striving towards the Greater Good.
So, 20 septs.
Codex: Tau Empire, page 4
Though not extensive, it encompasses a region of space some three hundred light years in diameter, with the Tau homeworld at its center, and just over a hundred settled worlds.
Though not extensive, it encompasses a region of space some three hundred light years in diameter, with the Tau homeworld at its center, and just over a hundered settled worlds.
Bam!
HA! I haven't read those headers in so long, I forgot they mentioned that.
I dug through a box to find IA3 when I could have used the Codex on the desk next to me.
Youre fast. Prefer the example of the next post ( since GW stopped selling IA directly at IA 2 in some countries and began at IA 9 again to...).
agnosto wrote:Number of worlds:
Codex: Tau Empire, page 10
The Tau empire encompasses a dense yet astrographically small area of space. Many hundreds of star systems exist within this region, and an unusually high proportion harbour an environment conducive to life. As the Tau steadily expand the borders of their empire, they continue to encounter other races. The empire now encompasses over twenty septs - fully developed Tau systems -and a large number of vassal alien homeworlds. The population of these worlds are fully integrated in to the empire, each striving towards the Greater Good.
So, 20 septs.
Codex: Tau Empire, page 4
Though not extensive, it encompasses a region of space some three hundred light years in diameter, with the Tau homeworld at its center, and just over a hundred settled worlds.
iproxtaco wrote:20 fully populated worlds, about 40 or so settled worlds, the rest just outposts, stations or planets occupied by the Tau's allies
Not exactly. Sept worlds are fully settled worlds. This means that they have reached the limit of their growth and are fully mature worlds (population, availability of tech, etc.) There's probably a fair number of worlds that were settled during the 3rd sphere expansion that aren't Sept level worlds yet.
1hadhq wrote:
I don't.
You seem to.
5th ed rulebook shows nice icons. Still does not disassemble these into sun, planet a,b,c,etc.
But the Tau codex tells us these names right there on the rulebook map belong to planets.
I just take it as is, if we know 1 planet we don't know if its a lonely one or has 1 or more inhabitable planets in this system of at least
1 planet and a sun.
Yes, you do need to work on reading comprehension, since it clearly shows each sept being a volume of space:
There's even a nice little map key to show how heavily populated the worlds in a given area are, on average.
1hadhq wrote:
I see. You believe you cited somthing somewhere and I have to search it.....
Too bad I am not willing to browse the whole interwebz to find it. So at which site and thread was this again?
Um, this site and this thread, though it's become increasingly obvious that some people are not actually reading the posts they're replying to.
On the volume of space: if a Tau sept has 300 ly diameter, then it's larger then an Imperial Sector, as a sector is about 20 ly on a side.
It's a rough classification, but I would say that Sept worlds are the main population centres, with average numbers around the same as our modern Earth. There are obviously different variations within that. The rest are a mix of smaller population worlds, research stations, outposts and of course the Tau's xenos allies.
Yes, you do need to work on reading comprehension, since it clearly shows each sept being a volume of space:
There's even a nice little map key to show how heavily populated the worlds in a given area are, on average.
Cool. Its back to 3 dimensional. Weren't you the one to claim there is only 1 way to enter the realm of the Tau?
But clearly you can see the volume on 2D and clearly you can see the borders of each sept clearly.....Oh wait , you cannot.
These 2D forms aren't translating well into 3D. And the numbers there are anyones guess.
BaronIveagh wrote:
Um, this site and this thread, though it's become increasingly obvious that some people are not actually reading the posts they're replying to.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM
Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?
The IoM has 1,000,000 planets. The Tau have 100. That's 1:10,000
You suck at math.
and if we're including supporting guard and titanicus then yeah, obviously they win. The point was 6,000 marines alone against the Tau's 100 planets. Dal'yth, which was a primarily water-caste world, had a strong enough military to hold the DGC's 2 companies worth of composite marine force, titan legion, Multiple guard regiments, and navy support.
There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, though it's a gas giant and equal in size to 10 or more Earth size planets so could be highly populated.
We don't know how many planets each the Tarellians, Demiurg, Nicassar, and Humans have.
There may be other allied species around too that we haven't heard about.
We know Demiurg and Nicassar have zero. Actually humans would be the other multi-planet species within the "Federation".
I don't remember hearing that the Demiurgs had no home world
Same with the Nicassar. They have no home world within the Empire, that is for sure, but only a few hundred Nicassar flotillas were found by the Tau. There may be many, many more Nicassar out there.
1hadhq wrote:
Cool. Its back to 3 dimensional. Weren't you the one to claim there is only 1 way to enter the realm of the Tau?
But clearly you can see the volume on 2D and clearly you can see the borders of each sept clearly.....Oh wait , you cannot.
These 2D forms aren't translating well into 3D. And the numbers there are anyones guess.
Since almost every map of the 40k galaxy is 2d, one could make the same arguments about IoM. Yes, it's hard to see the boarders. Unless you look at the map. It's also hard to say how populated they are. Unless you read the map key.
And there's only one way in, for the Imperium (possibly 2 if the Jericho reach happens to connect to Tau space through a navigatible are of the warp, but currently that's over-run with Tau, nids, and Chaos.)
1hadhq wrote:
Why didn't you read the posts youre replying to?
im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM
Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?
and if we're including supporting guard and titanicus then yeah, obviously they win. The point was 6,000 marines alone against the Tau's 100 planets. Dal'yth, which was a primarily water-caste world, had a strong enough military to hold the DGC's 2 companies worth of composite marine force, titan legion, Multiple guard regiments, and navy support.
Ignoring the fact that The Damocles Gulf Crusade was pitifully small. Again.
There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.
A Battlesuit is not worth more than a Space Marine. Each Space Marine has fought in and won more wars in a few years than the Battlesuit pilot will ever in his entire life-time. Are you saying there are more than 1.1 million battlesuits? There are only about 2 million Firewarriors.
Source on this Knarloc killing a whole tactical squad? Space Marines do not die as easily as a lot of people think they do. How does each survive for several hundred years of constant war fighting more powerful enemies than the Tau? Because they're hard to kill.
I don't remember hearing that the Demiurgs had no home world
Same with the Nicassar. They have no home world within the Empire, that is for sure, but only a few hundred Nicassar flotillas were found by the Tau. There may be many, many more Nicassar out there.
Yeah the Demiurg were literally eaten out of house and home by the tyranids; the Tau offered them free passage and protection for their clan-ships and they offered free tech (Ion tech).
Randomluhr wrote:
There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.
Wait What? So your saying the space marines which literally number around 3 million, are smaller than the Tau who number around a billion overall??? Yeah that makes perfect sense. Not to tear you down but in that aspect you kinda failed at making a point.
Randomluhr wrote:
There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.
Wait What? So your saying the space marines which literally number around 3 million, are smaller than the Tau who number around a billion overall??? Yeah that makes perfect sense. Not to tear you down but in that aspect you kinda failed at making a point.
Um, space marines number around 1 million (supposedly). Tau worlds seem to have around 5-7 billion, the few that an actual number is put to.
Kilkrazy wrote:Yes, though it's a gas giant and equal in size to 10 or more Earth size planets so could be highly populated.
We don't know how many planets each the Tarellians, Demiurg, Nicassar, and Humans have.
There may be other allied species around too that we haven't heard about.
We know Demiurg and Nicassar have zero. Actually humans would be the other multi-planet species within the "Federation".
Exactly. Only the Kroot and Vespids have a few hints on their number of planets.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The IoM has 1,000,000 planets. The Tau have 100. That's 1:10,000
You suck at math.
The 1 million isn't a excact number. So youre 1:10.000 is way off.
Sadly no surprise as we see don there:
im2randomghgh wrote:
and if we're including supporting guard and titanicus then yeah, obviously they win. The point was 6,000 marines alone against the Tau's 100 planets. Dal'yth, which was a primarily water-caste world, had a strong enough military to hold the DGC's 2 companies worth of composite marine force, titan legion, Multiple guard regiments, and navy support.
There are more crisis suits then there are marines, and a battlesuit is worth A LOT more than a SM. That's not even including the XV15s, XV25s, XV9s, XV88, XV22s and any other non-in game suits the Tau may have up their sleeves. Hell, there are probably more Great Knarlocs than there are marines, and one alone is enough to kill a tac squad.
Heard of this timeline, called 999M41, nickname stasis field ? Tau are right there, like everyone else.
So keep up dreaming of XV 938726237 suits as much as you please, still 40k background will not deliver....
BT got a rough estimate of their size in codex BT, not perfect but something worth to go from. If you need the page, just ask.
Your claimed numbers of suits and knarlocs can be found where?
BaronIveagh wrote:
Since almost every map of the 40k galaxy is 2d, one could make the same arguments about IoM. Yes, it's hard to see the boarders. Unless you look at the map. It's also hard to say how populated they are. Unless you read the map key.
And there's only one way in, for the Imperium (possibly 2 if the Jericho reach happens to connect to Tau space through a navigatible are of the warp, but currently that's over-run with Tau, nids, and Chaos.)
The IoM has the "advantage" of being the targeted realm of campaigns and got 3D, and maps and details to go from. So no, the IoM isn't
subject to 2D as other factions are. Maybe all of the warring factions should hold their next "eternal war" party in Tau space and harrass their worlds, just for a change obviously, and we get more details.
Suggestion: Nids (already there) Ork ( invited by eldar) Eldar ( invite themselves per farseer) Necrons ( disturbed and angry) chaos (attempts to corrupt a new allly of the Tau) IoM (was following the chaos fleet). Mission Target: raze that world ASAP.
Since youre soo convinced of the map, why don't you tell us the exact boarders of Tau and Tau'n ? Go have a look....
And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.
It should also be noted that not all worlds seem to have the same balance of castes.
BaronIveagh wrote:And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.
It should also be noted that not all worlds seem to have the same balance of castes.
LOL!
Anyway, I believe it was 1 million, but I am also considering the fact that some chapters do not follow that so I boosted it up to 2 million the current tau forces are 3 million strong. Soo.... Just sending an entire chapter and a few regiments would of owned the tau.
BaronIveagh wrote:And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.
Oh thanks.
I've got a feeling I won't stay alone on it.....
Last time we have seen these suits in 40k fluff, ie savage scars, the suits died and the marines lived.
The main problem is that unless GW decides to Squat the Tau, we could all argue this issue until our faces were bluer then an ultramarine's ass, and it will never be decided.
And even then they'll have 'never existed' rather then be eliminated.
im2randomghgh wrote:
The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM
Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1.
Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?
The fact that Tau have about 100 worlds, and the Imperium has about a 1,000,000, therefore, the Tau is 1:10,000 the size of the Imperium. In population the ratio is even bigger, as few Tau worlds are densely populated, and even then they are nothing compared to an average Imperial civilised world.
I am not talking about worlds, but number of Light Years when it comes to territory...
But never mind, there is nowhere even a mention of that...
The Tau Empire, at it's widest point, was about 100 LY across, IIRC.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The Milky way is 100,000 LY
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Asherian Command wrote:
BaronIveagh wrote:And it seems my addendum won't be tacked on to what I was writing because 1hadhq posted, who is the first dakka poster to have ever made my ignore list, congrats.
It should also be noted that not all worlds seem to have the same balance of castes.
LOL!
Anyway, I believe it was 1 million, but I am also considering the fact that some chapters do not follow that so I boosted it up to 2 million the current tau forces are 3 million strong. Soo.... Just sending an entire chapter and a few regiments would of owned the tau.
If anything, it would be lower than 1 million, due to the fact that very, very few chapters are ever at full strength.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.
I am confused how density plays into a culture like the Tau when it comes to war.
They seldom suffer anywhere near total forces casualties in conflicts. So, be it larger or smaller, given the scale of conflicts the IoM is willing to throw at it, they win with what they have.
Be it 100 worlds or 20, the Tau manage to defeat the Imperium time and time again with the tired old excuse being "wait until next time."
The fact of the matter being, that the Tau have a flawless win streak when it comes to their definition of a win. That being, that they fight to kill an enemy, then take the lands they want. If they have to withdraw and hit it again they do. But to date, the only conflict they really lost badly in, was one in which they initially won, wiped out all defenders, then fought a bloody battle against BTs and IF, only losing when Brightsword was recalled for brutality, ironically in a brilliant route/massacre.
Technology and population aside, the real debate should be about the Imperium's horrendous tactical, logistical and proganda campaigns, which all fail against the Tau on a consistent basis. On the flip side, the Tau score high marks in all three categories in most of the conflicts they engage in against the IoM. With Gulfs and planets defecting without a fight and even loyal planets being duped at a leadership level to lay down arms.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.
Imperial possessions also fluctuate wildly, and "number of planets" is a pretty poor indicator for relative strength: the Imperium has just over 32,000 hiveworlds, each of which dwarf the entire population of the Tau empire a dozen times over (and house only about 50% of the Imperial population, give or take around 10% in either direction), while the Craftworlders have only around a dozen craftworlds, yet dwarf the Tau a hundred times over, and even the Dark Eldar dwarf them with their one city.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.
Imperial possessions also fluctuate wildly, and "number of planets" is a pretty poor indicator for relative strength: the Imperium has just over 32,000 hiveworlds, each of which dwarf the entire population of the Tau empire a dozen times over (and house only about 50% of the Imperial population, give or take around 10% in either direction), while the Craftworlders have only around a dozen craftworlds, yet dwarf the Tau a hundred times over, and even the Dark Eldar dwarf them with their one city.
The IoM does NOT have 32,000 hives. There is usually only one per sub-sector.
The Craftworlders certainly do NOT outnumber the Tau. They would be horrifiaclly out-numbered.
And there are more than 12 CW, probably closer to 50. There are only 12 NAMED CW.
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BeefCakeSoup wrote:I am confused how density plays into a culture like the Tau when it comes to war.
They seldom suffer anywhere near total forces casualties in conflicts. So, be it larger or smaller, given the scale of conflicts the IoM is willing to throw at it, they win with what they have.
Be it 100 worlds or 20, the Tau manage to defeat the Imperium time and time again with the tired old excuse being "wait until next time."
The fact of the matter being, that the Tau have a flawless win streak when it comes to their definition of a win. That being, that they fight to kill an enemy, then take the lands they want. If they have to withdraw and hit it again they do. But to date, the only conflict they really lost badly in, was one in which they initially won, wiped out all defenders, then fought a bloody battle against BTs and IF, only losing when Brightsword was recalled for brutality, ironically in a brilliant route/massacre.
Technology and population aside, the real debate should be about the Imperium's horrendous tactical, logistical and proganda campaigns, which all fail against the Tau on a consistent basis. On the flip side, the Tau score high marks in all three categories in most of the conflicts they engage in against the IoM. With Gulfs and planets defecting without a fight and even loyal planets being duped at a leadership level to lay down arms.
Exactly, the Tau decide they want a planet...then take it. Maybe tomorrow, maybe from your grand-children, maybe from the cold, dead fingers of your great-great-grandchildren. But they WILL get it.
The water caste is one of the few forces in the galaxy that could possibly take Cadia.
You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
iproxtaco wrote:That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end?
Ah, yes, the great victory of Nimbosa.
Where the Tau took out a Vostroyan regiment, then were wiped out by the Space Marines.
What do you mean? As far as I can see, the Imperium successfully won back Nimbosa, and still have it. I was actually pointing out that the Tau were stated as having won and lost in the same sentence.
iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
Actually a hive world's population is between 50,000,000,000-500,000,000,000 people
The Tau Empire's population is between 100,000,000,000-200,000,000,000
A small hive is 1/4 the size of a liberal estimate of the populace of the tau Empire.
1/2 the size of a conservative estimate.
Anyways though, I think we can all agree it is simply smarter to go with sept worlds rather than hives. Septs are self-sustaining.
Sorry, 100,000,000,000? As in 100 billion? Where the feth do get those numbers from? So, a large hive, a single planet has five times the population of the Tau, so I was right.
im2randomghgh wrote:@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.
Imperial possessions also fluctuate wildly, and "number of planets" is a pretty poor indicator for relative strength: the Imperium has just over 32,000 hiveworlds, each of which dwarf the entire population of the Tau empire a dozen times over (and house only about 50% of the Imperial population, give or take around 10% in either direction), while the Craftworlders have only around a dozen craftworlds, yet dwarf the Tau a hundred times over, and even the Dark Eldar dwarf them with their one city.
The IoM does NOT have 32,000 hives. There is usually only one per sub-sector.
The 32,000 figure is from the BRB, I believe. I just have the pocket rulebook, so I don't know the page, but I do know where I read it (another thread) had it sourced to a page. Edit: iproxtaco sourced that just now.
The Craftworlders certainly do NOT outnumber the Tau. They would be horrifiaclly out-numbered.
Each craftworld is the size of a small planet and populated throughout. The few specific figures I've seen put each craftworld as dwarfing the Tau, though to a lesser extent than an Imperial hiveworld.
And there are more than 12 CW, probably closer to 50. There are only 12 NAMED CW.
Then the point stands even stronger.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote:Anyways though, I think we can all agree it is simply smarter to go with sept worlds rather than hives. Septs are self-sustaining.
And a single tithing of Armageddon, taking under .1% of the population, raised a force larger than the entire Tau military...
iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
Nimbosa was two seperate fights.
I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.
The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.
Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.
iproxtaco wrote:Sorry, 100,000,000,000? As in 100 billion? Where the feth do get those numbers from? So, a large hive, a single planet has five times the population of the Tau, so I was right.
There is only one hive with 500 billion. Armaggeddon. Only Terra surpasses her, with 100 trillion citizens.
And also, the Eldar population is not very dense, since they don't mate all that often (very un-human) and leave plenty of space for parks, art galleries etc.
There are actually 23 surviving named CWs, there are apparently more, to about 61, meaning they by far outnumber the Tau.
Automatically Appended Next Post: How do you know there's only one? There are more than 32,000 of them, they vary, and considering the Tau apparently have a random unsourced population of 100 billion, then yeah, I'd say a fair few will have a population many times bigger than the Tau on them.
iproxtaco wrote:What do you mean? As far as I can see, the Imperium successfully won back Nimbosa, and still have it. I was actually pointing out that the Tau were stated as having won and lost in the same sentence.
Further Clarification:
Nimbosa was attacked by the Tau. Every single last piece of resistance was killed. The planet then retro-fitted defense and prepared for a retailiation from the IoM. They learned from the DGC to be prepared when you take Imperial worlds.
The IoM sent a grouping of mixed chapters to assist Guard in taking the planet back. The second battle was a really hard fought battle that went to the IoM in the end. However, a major factor in the Tau;s defeat was the recalling of the Tau "General" Brightsword, an acolyte of Farsight.
iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
Nimbosa was two seperate fights.
I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.
The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.
Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.
The point of Tau valuing lives more than land is more true than you realize. They send in the kroot, but not as cannon fodder, they try their best to keep them safe using fire support. They evacuate cities in the path of an enemy. They will offer peace even when they are winning to avoid the loss of life.
And yes, I agree with you on the militarization. The Tau can, at max, get 50% (Air+Fire) + any Ethereals who fight+ drones+ auxilliaries+ battle-field technicians (earth), The water caste and earth caste are physiologically incapable of actual combat without being worthless.
iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
Nimbosa was two seperate fights.
I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.
The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.
Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.
In a realistic hypothetical fan made event in which the Imperium actually gathers up the resources, they would utterly crush the Tau. As it stands, the Tau have a good track record due to the small size of the confrontations and a healthy dose of plot armour. The Imperium has survived for 10,000 years because of that notion. It will be no different with the Tau. They don't care, because they can't afford to care, the Tau can just now, nut they're up against a force which could destroy them with a metaphorical flick of its finger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet that 1-2% is still several thousand times the strength of the Tau's full capability. The Imperium could quite easily step up production of lasguns and flack armour and mobilise 10%, that would crush the anything, but leave a lot less to do other important jobs.
iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
Nimbosa was two seperate fights.
I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.
The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.
Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.
In a realistic hypothetical fan made event in which the Imperium actually gathers up the resources, they would utterly crush the Tau. As it stands, the Tau have a good track record due to the small size of the confrontations and a healthy dose of plot armour. The Imperium has survived for 10,000 years because of that notion. It will be no different with the Tau. They don't care, because they can't afford to care, the Tau can just now, nut they're up against a force which could destroy them with a metaphorical flick of its finger.
You're defending the IoM by talking about plot armour...confusing...
The Imperium values land over lives because and is more valuable to them. There will always be more civilians and troops, there wont ever be more worlds. It's a distinct sense of realism that the Tau would have to come to terms with if they were in the Imperiums position.
Automatically Appended Next Post: No, just down-playing the over-inflated opinions some people have of the Tau. The Imperium has it's own plot armour in copious amounts.
iproxtaco wrote:You can't argue against the fanboi's, so what's the point? The rampant trolling from these Tau fanboi's is astounding. The Water Caste could take Cadia? That's the cherry on the cake, along with Beekcakes amazing use of Nimbosa. The Tau eventually won apparently, but also apparently lost at the end? Or, they have always won in the past, which is wrong, so they will always win in the future? Great. Or the Eldar somehow being horrifically outnumbered by the Tau. Or, the Tau always win in their definition of a win, which is seemingly tailored so they never lose.
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
Nimbosa was two seperate fights.
I honestly don't see the contest man. The IoM does god aweful against the Tau in all the major conflicts. What's more, is their list of excuses is almost as long as the list of regiments they bring to fail.
The IoM has no excuse for losing to the Tau period. Having superior numbers isn't an excuse to be a piss poor leader of your forces. Yet time and again the Imperium disregards that notion and throws a few regiments to die here and there. The Tau however, do not. The value the life of their troops more than they value land. Maybe the Imperium could learn a thing or two from that.
Also, the Tau militarization rate mentioned earlier interested me. I believe the IoM and the Tau are the only two factions incapable of 100% militarization in 40K. I would say Eldar, but the general populace can serve as Guardians excluding children or pregnant Eldar I would assume.
In a realistic hypothetical fan made event in which the Imperium actually gathers up the resources, they would utterly crush the Tau. As it stands, the Tau have a good track record due to the small size of the confrontations and a healthy dose of plot armour. The Imperium has survived for 10,000 years because of that notion. It will be no different with the Tau. They don't care, because they can't afford to care, the Tau can just now, nut they're up against a force which could destroy them with a metaphorical flick of its finger.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Yet that 1-2% is still several thousand times the strength of the Tau's full capability. The Imperium could quite easily step up production of lasguns and flack armour and mobilise 10%, that would crush the anything, but leave a lot less to do other important jobs.
The bane of having an Empire as large as the Imperium's is a constant defensive game on all fronts. You can't factor in Imperial might without first factoring out what assets they can't use due to other fronts.While I agree a fully unhindered Imperial force could wipe out the Tau in an ideal setting, it's just that, an ideal setting. Not too close to the real setting, where the galaxy is attacking the IoM on all fronts at once.
Except it's just wishful thinking to say the Imperium can't, because they can. The resources COULD be put somewhere else, to bolster the defences, but defeating the Tau won't take much in the grand scheme of things, and said defences don't need the extra help. They could in the real setting still do it.
iproxtaco wrote:Except it's just wishful thinking to say the Imperium can't, because they can. The resources COULD be put somewhere else, to bolster the defences, but defeating the Tau won't take much in the grand scheme of things, and said defences don't need the extra help. They could in the real setting still do it.
The problem is, empires like that of the Tau are too numerous for the Imperium to stamp out.
iproxtaco wrote:There aren't. I would like you to name them if they're numerous.
"While no one empire such as the Tau represents a threat to the Imperium at large, their sheer number means that many will continue to exist, and be a threat to human worlds, for a long time to come."
Source? And the Tau are an order of magnitude more important than the average xenos race occupying three backwater worlds on the edge of space. I asked for EMPIRES. The Tau are a civilised race ruling over 100 worlds, that's a tick. Those other xenos, they're bacteria, unless you can give me one which is the size and power of the Tau.
iproxtaco wrote:Source? And the Tau are an order of magnitude more important than the average xenos race occupying three backwater worlds on the edge of space. I asked for EMPIRES. The Tau are a civilised race ruling over 100 worlds, that's a tick. Those other xenos, they're bacteria, unless you can give me one which is the size and power of the Tau.
Deathwatch Core.
And yes, they're irrelevant bacteria in the grand scheme of things.
GW just decided to follow a strain of bacteria as it grew.
The thing to keep in mind is that if the Imperium seriously commits a force larger than the Damocles Crusade they could take out the Empire.
If the Imperium dedicated every single resource to something then yeah, they could beat the Tau, but then again they could beat almost everything. The Imperium still has to worry about all the other segmentums out there, as well as all of its current and active crusades/reclamations.
Could the Imperium do it? Absolutely, and they wouldn't even need a force that's increasingly larger than the one from Damocles. But the Tyranids, Chaos and Orks represent threats too serious to divert attention from, thus giving those threats with lesser men/resources (The Tau, the Eldar/Dark Eldar, etc.) a chance to cause more trouble. The Imperium has to maintain a delicate balance, and right now it seems that even at their rate of recruitment/production or whatever that they're having a hell of a time keeping what they have.
iproxtaco wrote:The Imperium has it's own plot armour in copious amounts.
Only if being written as the single largest cohesive faction in the setting counts as plot armor. Except for Space Marine-Sues, who are the single smallest and most insignificant faction in the entire setting, except for Chaos Space Marines, who have somewhere between a third and half their numbers, and are ruled by warp-maddened lunatics who think it's funny when they die. They've got more plot armor than there is matter in the known universe several times over.
Nerivant wrote:
iproxtaco wrote:MY GOD. The Imperium would have more than enough to spare if they wanted to take out the Tau. They are not at breaking point.
Despite the fact that it's been brought up multiple times in this thread, you never provide evidence to the contrary.
To draw from the Guard codex: Armageddon is annually tithed for one hundred million recruits and several million armored vehicles, which works out to well under .1% of its hundreds of billions of residents. A single one of those tithings would be greater than one thousand times the largest force ever sent against the Tau, and there are more than 32 thousand worlds for which such a tithe would be less than .1% of the populace.
iproxtaco wrote:MY GOD. The Imperium would have more than enough to spare if they wanted to take out the Tau. They are not at breaking point.
Ip, not trying to troll you but in that part of the galaxy, yeah they are.
The Tyranid invasions utterly crippled that area of the galaxy.
The Tyranids, in all, have destroyed less than .02% of the Imperium. How much of the Tau have been destroyed by the single smallest, weakest fragment of a hivefleet? If it's so much as one world, it would be 1%, and it's certainly more than a single world.
Not that .02% isn't scary and threatening, I mean, Pearl Harbor killed .001% of the American population at the time, and look how we reacted to that. So the Tyranids are possibly the largest external threat, but at the same time they're still a pathetically small one. It'd be like if, say, Luxembourg tried to invade the US with a few dozen pickup trucks and as many light machine guns, and maybe some bottlerockets or something, and nobody noticed them before they'd hit a few small, rural towns in the middle of nowhere.
im2randomghgh wrote: The Tau Empire is 1:10,000 the size of the IoM
Don't talk nonsense please... We don't even know how big Imperial territory is in Light Years. It may be that Imoerium vs. Tau ration in territory is up to 100,000:1. Tell me where it says that Tau Empire is 1:10,00 when compared toward IoM?
The IoM has 1,000,000 planets. The Tau have 100. That's 1:10,000
You suck at math.
I was referring to Light Years. But these doesn't count in Warhammer, if so then Imperial territory is 100,000:1 when compared to Tau. Because distance between 2 Imperial worlds would be up to 500 LY, and that's for neighbor planets. Tau sept is 300 Light Years long, so go figure...
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KamikazeCanuck wrote:There's less than a million space marines.
That's odd, last tiem someone was doing chapter list it was more bigger than 1,000. We concluded there are 1,250.000 Space Marines in the Imperium. ( without BT or SW )
Automatically Appended Next Post:
im2randomghgh wrote: The water caste is one of the few forces in the galaxy that could possibly take Cadia.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The Tyranid invasions utterly crippled that area of the galaxy.
No, if you see here: http://www.joachim-adomeit.de/wh40k/spacemap/map.html the Behemot destroyed only several worlds before being stooped at Macragge.
Hive fleet Kraken didn't destroy anything, the Hive fleet was destroyed bi Eldar at Iyanden and terminators at Ichar IV. Only small fragment's escaped.
The Ultramarines have healed as well as their worlds. And since no damage was done by Kraken ( through the sacrifice of the Eldar ) the sector was not crippled at all.
iproxtaco wrote:
And yes, the Imperium has approximately 32,380 Hive worlds p115 5ed rulebook. Each with a greater population than the Tau.
Ahem...
Rulebook page 115, box in the right corner:
Example of Minea, a hive world.
Estimated number of Hivewordls in the Imperium in this entry:
3238 x 10^4
=> 32.380.000 is the correct way to disassemble right?
BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The bane of having an Empire as large as the Imperium's is a constant defensive game on all fronts. You can't factor in Imperial might without first factoring out what assets they can't use due to other fronts.While I agree a fully unhindered Imperial force could wipe out the Tau in an ideal setting, it's just that, an ideal setting. Not too close to the real setting, where the galaxy is attacking the IoM on all fronts at once.
Could we factor out also the assets of non-imperial forces who have to defend too?
Because the Galaxy doesn't care who you are, everone will be attacked in this eternal war setting.
Some like Eldar just cheat and hide....
As per page 138 the IG recruts millions daily.
Daily. So enough without duties yet and with only 0.01 % mobilized just wait what happens if the Imperium switches to realistic 10%.
The real setting is also part of the background. Look at the maps of nids, orks, necrons, eldar, etc activities. Generally the only
rather peaceful place in this Galaxy seems to be westwards in segmentum Pacificus.
But the Tau are in the Eastern fringe, right where the nids come in with multiple hive fleets....
Orks , chaos, necrons and maybe other yet unknown threats are there too.
im2randomghgh wrote:
@ 1hadhq, 1 million is approximate for the IoM, but 100 is also approximate for Tau. I believe the exact number of worlds was somewhere along the lines of 114, so if anything the ratio is small than 1:10,000, not bigger.
Did you discount the worlds lost to tyranids, harvested by Necrons, depopulated by Dark eldar , etc?
I don't see where the +14 should come from, since we know these vile threads of space bugs, space undead and spiky space elfs took their toll on them and thats without mentioning orks or chaos.
The Imperium may afford to lose a 114 worlds without being broken....
Greetings. I have seen such Fethed up Posts here. I'm a Son of Dorn and Of the Emperor.
and I can tell you all With or Without Support the Black Templars can Purge the Entire Tau Empire, it would take a long time but it will be done.
The Black Templars are the Most Zealous and one of the Most Faithful Chapters of the Astartes.
They would never back down from a fight, would Never bring the Chapter and the Emperor in Shame.
The Heraldic Cross stands proud on our chests, where Astartes of lesser chapters wear the Emperor's Aquila. We do not wear his symbol. We are his Symbol. Another thought our Codex has not yet been Updated so the Exact number of the BlackTemplars raging across the universe has not yet been said. but it was Stated in several Forums and Websites... etc etc... like for this example: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Black_Templars that we are a Legion and a lot of Our Friends and Perhaps you "reader" know this as well that 10,000+ Black Templars are here.
With Support the Tau Empire can grovel at our knees. Saying Several other Chapters who has lets say a Grudge against the Tau, as well as the Deathwatch, as they are Xeno hunters and the Imperium are stating that the Tau are Xenos. The Imperial Guard, How many are there in one regiment? Acting a course like this invading the Tau Empire, would give us Tens, Hundreds and if the Emperor wills it Thousands of Regiments, Armoured, Infantry, Artillery that's a lot of Firepower. Let's not forget about the Imperial navy, of course they have had their fair share of action and how many Sons, Daughters, Fathers, Mothers they have sacrificed against the Tau. If they would have given a chance to join the Black Templars Crusade to Exterminate a Threat against the Imperium what would they say? Where Billions upon Billions of MEN and WOMEN would gather and Fight for their Loved ones, for the Imperium and of Course the Immortal-God Emperor himself. Would not that be a sufficient cause? and that's just the IG.
of Course Other Chapters would hear this great battle about to Happen. A Battle that would Set things Straight,that would answer all questions about this topic. That would Say who will be the Victor? All Chapters seek, Crave for Glory to Prove themselves worthy to be called Astartes, To be a Son of Their Primarch, of the Emperor, to give Honor and Respect in his name and shall go down in History. The Imperial Fists would Gladly join their Battle-Brothers after all they are the Founders of the BlackTemplars Chapter. The Crimson Fists also a Brother-Chapter derived from the Imperial Fists, they would understand and would Join in without Hesitation. Perhaps Renegade Chapters as well who are loyal to the Immortal-God Emperor, without our own knowledge... battles shall be filled throughout their Homeworld's Through Space and Xeno Occupied Worlds. Let us not Forget Rival-Chapters as well, they do not see eye to eye with the BlackTemplars but the Goal is one and the same, this would prove that are... maybe... perhaps a little better or would think that they are comparing themselves to the BlackTemplars. Ultramarines... Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Red Templars, White Templars, Sons of Dorn, Salamanders, and all the Other Chapters. Surely they we'll hear this.
The Adeptus Mechanicus, I have Limited knowledge to them, they are mysterious beings but nevertheless they are Still part of the Imperium, they will provide us support, their Great Titans shall envelop the enemies worlds, and Crush any obstacle in their way. And all the other Creations they have made to benefit the Imperium.
I wonder if the Sisters of battle would partake? Perhaps if they desire to Cleanse the Universe, to purify it... that would Frighten any Xeno Lover to come out and Pro-test within the Imperium of course... The Inquisition? Lets just give them a tip that the enemy are harboring Chaos forces or what not? Grey Knights aren't that noble as they were before the new codex arrived... Perhaps other then Heretic, they would slay Xeno.
Its all in my Opinion of Course.
I will continue in my next report.
-BlackTemplar587
I didn't mean by fanboyism but by his point.
BT would never go alone in crusade against such powerful force. They would gain suport from several chapters, several sectors would send their IG Regiments, Deathwatch would join to gather relics, Imperial Navy would send some ships and several SM chapters would also send them, SoB would also join to purge xenos in the Emperor's name...
When they all gaiter up they would bring a world of pain to the Tau, but we will never find out since GW won't continue the storyline...
I still contend that the Templars would have enough time thanks to the element of surprise to hit-and-run enough planets to bring the Tau to their knees. Considering Tau FTL communications seem rare if even existant and the fact that the Tau have slower FTL travel than the Imperium would mean that the Templars pop out, blast a planet and then have ample of time to retreat out of the gravity well of said planet, as the Tau can neither coordinate nor respond to such a threat fast enough. Copy-paste for the next planet, the next one after that and so on. Either they gather as much of their fleet as possible without weakening their defenses against the Orks and 'Nids (the IoM isn't the only one fighting on multiple fronts you know...) and send this fleet to a world and hope the Templars show up there or they send out smaller fleets to defend different systems, which means that they're outnumbered and torn to pieces.
You know, before this thread I was thinking about making a black templar army because I just like the idea of a chapter that's thumbed their nose at convention and gets things done the way they need to be regardless of some old book written in the mists of antiquity (I'm extremely proud of that runon sentence by the way).
Now, not so much. Besides they'll probably be just as stupid as grey knights in the next codex with some silly stuff like templar fists and templar cannons...etc and a giant cross that deepstrikes and has destroys everything on the battlefield on a 2+.
Brother Coa wrote:I didn't mean by fanboyism but by his point.
BT would never go alone in crusade against such powerful force. They would gain suport from several chapters, several sectors would send their IG Regiments, Deathwatch would join to gather relics, Imperial Navy would send some ships and several SM chapters would also send them, SoB would also join to purge xenos in the Emperor's name...
When they all gaiter up they would bring a world of pain to the Tau, but we will never find out since GW won't continue the storyline...
Ya that is something we keep forgetting about the main post. The idea wasn't that the BT was going completely alone. They where bringing the limitless power of the IoM with them. We tend to not include them because honestly, we all know that the IoM can take out the tau and we are just quivering over numbers.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:I still contend that the Templars would have enough time thanks to the element of surprise to hit-and-run enough planets to bring the Tau to their knees. Considering Tau FTL communications seem rare if even existant and the fact that the Tau have slower FTL travel than the Imperium would mean that the Templars pop out, blast a planet and then have ample of time to retreat out of the gravity well of said planet, as the Tau can neither coordinate nor respond to such a threat fast enough. Copy-paste for the next planet, the next one after that and so on. Either they gather as much of their fleet as possible without weakening their defenses against the Orks and 'Nids (the IoM isn't the only one fighting on multiple fronts you know...) and send this fleet to a world and hope the Templars show up there or they send out smaller fleets to defend different systems, which means that they're outnumbered and torn to pieces.
The BT can't just fly in nuke and fly out over and over. It's bugs me on two levels.
First, it's a poor narrative. You wouldn't get any cool battles, no drama, no sunset dual on the back of a giant whale. You can't have the swan song of the tau with out some big epic battles. It would be lame.
The next thing that dosen't make sense. Your not going to jump in nuke and jump out so cleanly. The tau is going to know you are coming. They will know when you stop off at an imperial border world or when you see a rouge trader. They are going to noticed the fleet before it crosses into tau space. Getting into the space carrys the risk of getting caught again. The tau guard all the routs into there space. Finally, the tau do have FTL coms and they even have a network of way stations that transmit throughout the empire. If you get spotted by a tau ship, then that info will be spread all through the empire.
The next thing is that tau worlds are defended. They have combat orbitals, defensive fleets, maybe even a patrol fleet that is passing by. Just getting in rage of the planet, you will have to fight. That carries two risks. Your ships might just get worn out through through a lot of small battles or a few ships might have be disabled. If you have a disabled ship, you have to make the choice of just leaving the ship and it's crew or you try to repair it leaving you a sitting duck when a patrol fleet drops in.
Not that there's anything of the sort in the Grey Knights book, but, pointless trying to educate people on it. The Blood Angles book however should be avoided if that's your reasoning for not playing an army.
Out of the other Space Marine chapters, Black Templars or Salamanders are the two I would pick if I ever started another Marine army.
iproxtaco wrote:Not that there's anything of the sort in the Grey Knights book, but, pointless trying to educate people on it. The Blood Angles book however should be avoided if that's your reasoning for not playing an army.
Out of the other Space Marine chapters, Black Templars or Salamanders are the two I would pick if I ever started another Marine army.
As someone who hates Marine Armies for a variety of reasons, mostly due to really bad looking bad sci-fi 80s metal bell bottoms. I will admit, the GKs and BTs are frickin cool.
Having a troop with scripture written all over him is neat. Having an army structured like BTs with a High Marshal and a Champion is pretty bad ass too.
iproxtaco wrote:3.23*10^4 becomes 32,380, that's the approximate number of Hive Worlds in the Imperium, with populations between 25,000,000,000 and several trillion.
Actually, the only hive in the galaxy with over a trillion inhabitants is Terra, with 100 trillion. The next most populated is Armaggeddon, with 500 billion.
BlackTemplar587 wrote:Greetings. I have seen such Fethed up Posts here. I'm a Son of Dorn and Of the Emperor.
and I can tell you all With or Without Support the Black Templars can Purge the Entire Tau Empire, it would take a long time but it will be done.
The Black Templars are the Most Zealous and one of the Most Faithful Chapters of the Astartes.
They would never back down from a fight, would Never bring the Chapter and the Emperor in Shame.
The Heraldic Cross stands proud on our chests, where Astartes of lesser chapters wear the Emperor's Aquila. We do not wear his symbol. We are his Symbol. Another thought our Codex has not yet been Updated so the Exact number of the BlackTemplars raging across the universe has not yet been said. but it was Stated in several Forums and Websites... etc etc... like for this example: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Black_Templars that we are a Legion and a lot of Our Friends and Perhaps you "reader" know this as well that 10,000+ Black Templars are here.
With Support the Tau Empire can grovel at our knees. Saying Several other Chapters who has lets say a Grudge against the Tau, as well as the Deathwatch, as they are Xeno hunters and the Imperium are stating that the Tau are Xenos. The Imperial Guard, How many are there in one regiment? Acting a course like this invading the Tau Empire, would give us Tens, Hundreds and if the Emperor wills it Thousands of Regiments, Armoured, Infantry, Artillery that's a lot of Firepower. Let's not forget about the Imperial navy, of course they have had their fair share of action and how many Sons, Daughters, Fathers, Mothers they have sacrificed against the Tau. If they would have given a chance to join the Black Templars Crusade to Exterminate a Threat against the Imperium what would they say? Where Billions upon Billions of MEN and WOMEN would gather and Fight for their Loved ones, for the Imperium and of Course the Immortal-God Emperor himself. Would not that be a sufficient cause? and that's just the IG.
of Course Other Chapters would hear this great battle about to Happen. A Battle that would Set things Straight,that would answer all questions about this topic. That would Say who will be the Victor? All Chapters seek, Crave for Glory to Prove themselves worthy to be called Astartes, To be a Son of Their Primarch, of the Emperor, to give Honor and Respect in his name and shall go down in History. The Imperial Fists would Gladly join their Battle-Brothers after all they are the Founders of the BlackTemplars Chapter. The Crimson Fists also a Brother-Chapter derived from the Imperial Fists, they would understand and would Join in without Hesitation. Perhaps Renegade Chapters as well who are loyal to the Immortal-God Emperor, without our own knowledge... battles shall be filled throughout their Homeworld's Through Space and Xeno Occupied Worlds. Let us not Forget Rival-Chapters as well, they do not see eye to eye with the BlackTemplars but the Goal is one and the same, this would prove that are... maybe... perhaps a little better or would think that they are comparing themselves to the BlackTemplars. Ultramarines... Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Red Templars, White Templars, Sons of Dorn, Salamanders, and all the Other Chapters. Surely they we'll hear this.
The Adeptus Mechanicus, I have Limited knowledge to them, they are mysterious beings but nevertheless they are Still part of the Imperium, they will provide us support, their Great Titans shall envelop the enemies worlds, and Crush any obstacle in their way. And all the other Creations they have made to benefit the Imperium.
I wonder if the Sisters of battle would partake? Perhaps if they desire to Cleanse the Universe, to purify it... that would Frighten any Xeno Lover to come out and Pro-test within the Imperium of course... The Inquisition? Lets just give them a tip that the enemy are harboring Chaos forces or what not? Grey Knights aren't that noble as they were before the new codex arrived... Perhaps other then Heretic, they would slay Xeno.
Its all in my Opinion of Course.
I will continue in my next report.
-BlackTemplar587
And here I was, thinking I was a fanboi.
*sigh* let's start at the top.
1. Most fail paragraph I have ever seen. Ever. That video posted earlier about being stupid should be reposted for this. Without support they would be smashed apart. Completely. There are more battlesuits than their are BT, more battlesuits than there are Astartes, and an XV8 is worth A LOT more than an astartes. A lot.
2. there are ~6000 BT, not 10,000. Do not quote 1d4chan if you want to be taken seriously. And hmm, should I wear the symbol of the god I am trying to honour, or should I wear the symbol of a knightly order from 40,000 years ago that fought in the name of a god that was abolished by my god?
3. You went from "BT alone can kill Tau" to "if we had support we'd ass-rape them" pretty quick. Yes, with support they can destroy Tau, especially since with the support you described it wouldn't be guard supporting BT, it would be BT supporting Guard. But that isn't a BT crusade into the Empire, that is the Imperium crusading against a small 100 planet Empire.
4. Sons of Dorn (especially the good ones i.e. IF, CF, SD) are known for being the most level-headed astartes of all, not some glory seeking initiates. You basically described blood claws. They assess the situation tactically, and make informed decisions about their next move.
5. *sniggers* Titans are big, but enveloping worlds? 100m tall (Imperator) war machines are not capable of "enveloping worlds". They can destroy cities, but that is a COMPLETELY different scale.
6. Who the feth cares about the SOB? They are just guardsmans wives playing "dress-up astartes". That was a joke, but seriously, they are very rarely found fighting xenos (as they work for the Ordo Hereticus, and the Ecclesiarchy).
im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Sons of Dorn (especially the good ones i.e. IF, CF, SD) are known for being the most level-headed astartes of all, not some glory seeking initiates. You basically described blood claws. They assess the situation tactically, and make informed decisions about their next move.
Yeah, because Helbrecht being in command when Waaagh! Ghazgkhull was beaten back CLEARLY points to the BT being tactically inept, especially in comparison with other IF geneseed chapters.
im2randomghgh wrote:
5. *sniggers* Titans are big, but enveloping worlds? 100m tall (Imperator) war machines are not capable of "enveloping worlds". They can destroy cities, but that is a COMPLETELY different scale.
im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Sons of Dorn (especially the good ones i.e. IF, CF, SD) are known for being the most level-headed astartes of all, not some glory seeking initiates. You basically described blood claws. They assess the situation tactically, and make informed decisions about their next move.
Yeah, because Helbrecht being in command when Waaagh! Ghazgkhull was beaten back CLEARLY points to the BT being tactically inept, especially in comparison with other IF geneseed chapters.
im2randomghgh wrote:
5. *sniggers* Titans are big, but enveloping worlds? 100m tall (Imperator) war machines are not capable of "enveloping worlds". They can destroy cities, but that is a COMPLETELY different scale.
im2randomghgh wrote:
4. Sons of Dorn (especially the good ones i.e. IF, CF, SD) are known for being the most level-headed astartes of all, not some glory seeking initiates. You basically described blood claws. They assess the situation tactically, and make informed decisions about their next move.
Yeah, because Helbrecht being in command when Waaagh! Ghazgkhull was beaten back CLEARLY points to the BT being tactically inept, especially in comparison with other IF geneseed chapters.
im2randomghgh wrote:
5. *sniggers* Titans are big, but enveloping worlds? 100m tall (Imperator) war machines are not capable of "enveloping worlds". They can destroy cities, but that is a COMPLETELY different scale.
1. it was a counter point to the world's biggest BT fanboi stating that nothing but glory matters to the BT. Plus, BT ARE known for getting a thousand astartes together than just charging. Helbrecht is the finest naval tactician, but he can't figure out that just charging and hoping for the best isn't smart?
im2randomghgh wrote:
And here I was, thinking I was a fanboi.
*sigh* let's start at the top.
1. Most fail paragraph I have ever seen. Ever. That video posted earlier about being stupid should be reposted for this. Without support they would be smashed apart. Completely. There are more battlesuits than their are BT, more battlesuits than there are Astartes, and an XV8 is worth A LOT more than an astartes. A lot.
2. there are ~6000 BT, not 10,000. Do not quote 1d4chan if you want to be taken seriously. And hmm, should I wear the symbol of the god I am trying to honour, or should I wear the symbol of a knightly order from 40,000 years ago that fought in the name of a god that was abolished by my god?
3. You went from "BT alone can kill Tau" to "if we had support we'd ass-rape them" pretty quick. Yes, with support they can destroy Tau, especially since with the support you described it wouldn't be guard supporting BT, it would be BT supporting Guard. But that isn't a BT crusade into the Empire, that is the Imperium crusading against a small 100 planet Empire.
4. Sons of Dorn (especially the good ones i.e. IF, CF, SD) are known for being the most level-headed astartes of all, not some glory seeking initiates. You basically described blood claws. They assess the situation tactically, and make informed decisions about their next move.
5. *sniggers* Titans are big, but enveloping worlds? 100m tall (Imperator) war machines are not capable of "enveloping worlds". They can destroy cities, but that is a COMPLETELY different scale.
6. Who the feth cares about the SOB? They are just guardsmans wives playing "dress-up astartes". That was a joke, but seriously, they are very rarely found fighting xenos (as they work for the Ordo Hereticus, and the Ecclesiarchy).
You are the biggest and loudest Tau fanboi there is, and you see every FW like Chuck Norris that rapes Daemon Princes for launch.
Let's start AGAIN...
1) Again with your numbers, where it is stated that Tau have millions of XV8 battlesuits? It's like saying US army have millions of M1 Abrams, they need a LOT of recources to make this kind of number. Give me the statement from the fluff that say that Tau have millions of XV8 battlesuits...
2) He was referring to "successor" chapters - that came from the BT. They would also join them in the crusade, and that comes in total of 10,000 BT. And remember that even the Imperial Administratinum doesn't know how many BT there are, 6,000 is an old and porrly estimated numbering. They have probably a lot more marines.
3) You are talking about that "small 100 planet Empire" like it can defeat everybody without breaking a sweat this whole thread. Odd that you are agreeing that Imperium can defeat Tau, I thought you oppose that because Tau have 20+ billion Chuck Norrises ( Fire Warriors ) and half of them have battle suits. And that also Tau have Manta that can kill entire Titan Legions only with auto pilot engaged... And of course that the BT wouldn't go alone, even the Great Crusade had Imperial Army to support Astartes. And knowing BT, they would directly support Guardsman at the field of battle, giving support fire and charging into melle...
4) It is also stated that Sons of Dorn are good tacticians and they are using codex Astartes. They never waste their marines, and they are always winning battles ( number 1 battle where BT lost ).
6) Where is Melissia to burn some heretics because of this post? They are not just " guardsmans wives playing "dress-up astartes"" - they are highly trained warriors of the Imperial Creed. With equipment almost as good as one of the Astartes, and numbering in one order almost or even bigger than BT ( so we are talking about several thousands to millions in one order alone ). And they are more zealous and better trained than Guardsman, and they fight xenos - as you can see by the redemption crusades against aliens mutants and heretics alike. Ask Melissia for detail about it because it seems you don't know nothing about SoB at all.
Because of people like you saying "Tau are the best and others are so lame" people hate Tau, and there will be even more of them. Same scenario like Matt Ward "Ultramarines are the best and all chapters want's to be like them", and how many people hate Ultramarines?
before they set off. While the 
