Sit at 25" with a trukk full of boyz and a warboss? Your opponent is brain dead and does nothing? You win? Seems legit to me

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Get a slaanesh sorcerer or DP sorcerer and you can have S6 sonic weapons as the symphony stacks. 10 noise marines begin to clear marine squads out at that point.

30x Str 5 Sonic Blasters kills 4.5 marines, 6.7 when you get 4 models under the blastmaster template. That creates quite the problem imo, you're looking at a 2 - 3 dead GK paladins also. So if you add in another turn of firing. Thats on 3+ saves, it kills around 18 guardsmen tho.

Remember when a terminator squad is rolling 30 2+ saves it is statistcally losing 5 models to wounds. 20 Hits, 15 Wounds, you statistically lose 2.5 ish

Maths is off by like 0.3 in places but if you want to be a maths nazi go for it.

How many points is that (300?)

I'll have trukk of boyz with mega warboss. I sit in 25". You do nothing. I drive my trukk 24". You blow up my trukk and I assault you with only warboss and win. If you deside to move you can't even blow up my trukk.

Except with 6th Ed rules for destroyed vehicles, your unit counts as disembarking after its trukk is "blown up". Since I blew it up in my turn, then you disembarked in my turn, which means you can't charge until AFTER your next turn. Meaning that now your trukk boyz and warboss can mosey about that turn, shoot, etc, but NOT charge. Meaning that they're pretty much fodder for a gunline unit or army. Thanks for the points.

Salacious Greed wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Get a slaanesh sorcerer or DP sorcerer and you can have S6 sonic weapons as the symphony stacks. 10 noise marines begin to clear marine squads out at that point.

30x Str 5 Sonic Blasters kills 4.5 marines, 6.7 when you get 4 models under the blastmaster template. That creates quite the problem imo, you're looking at a 2 - 3 dead GK paladins also. So if you add in another turn of firing. Thats on 3+ saves, it kills around 18 guardsmen tho.

Remember when a terminator squad is rolling 30 2+ saves it is statistcally losing 5 models to wounds. 20 Hits, 15 Wounds, you statistically lose 2.5 ish

Maths is off by like 0.3 in places but if you want to be a maths nazi go for it.

How many points is that (300?)

I'll have trukk of boyz with mega warboss. I sit in 25". You do nothing. I drive my trukk 24". You blow up my trukk and I assault you with only warboss and win. If you deside to move you can't even blow up my trukk.

Except with 6th Ed rules for destroyed vehicles, your unit counts as disembarking after its trukk is "blown up". Since I blew it up in my turn, then you disembarked in my turn, which means you can't charge until AFTER your next turn. Meaning that now your trukk boyz and warboss can mosey about that turn, shoot, etc, but NOT charge. Meaning that they're pretty much fodder for a gunline unit or army. Thanks for the points.

Trukks are open-topped so they could charge.

Thats a ridiculous tactic. Because your trukk parked 25 inches away is out of range of my obliterators and every other long range gun, blastmaster included.

The squad is around 230 - 260 points for 10 man and i dont know about the sorcerer. The sorcerer seems a bit of a waste but its only there for the buff.

FYI people on warboss cocaine, they strike last (you always give them a PK) and are not very tough. Being an ork player for 2 years i know this, mega armour bosses and other bosses are flimsy. MA is the points sink and lives slightly longer, but normal ones are glass cannons with 3 wounds and a pants save. Normal ones just get completely flopped by manticores.

More importantly why are you putting them in a trukk?

Your imba tactic is easily countered by a winged DP, vector strike the trukk, challenge and rip the warboss to pieces. AP2.

Deffy's battlecannon would be in range >=) Yes sit young orkies and witness pie plates of death

A squad of 10 noise marines all with blasters would easily do more than a battle cannon template! (to orks..)

 illuknisaa wrote:


How many points is that (300?)

I'll have trukk of boyz with mega warboss. I sit in 25". You do nothing. I drive my trukk 24". You blow up my trukk and I assault you with only warboss and win. If you deside to move you can't even blow up my trukk.

Cliffs:
Sits at 25" away with an open topped AV10 vehicle with a high profile target, expects opponent to do nothing at all (like hit it with an obliterator lascannon)


Seems legit dude, you must win a lot of games.




Just kidding, you went full potato. Most noise marines squads at 10 men have a blastmaster which is range 48" str8 Ap3 ignores cover. Good luck on your theory-hammer goals of 2012.

Plague zombies cant purchase marks so that makes them toughness 3 correct?

 Tomb King wrote:
Plague zombies cant purchase marks so that makes them toughness 3 correct?

yes and they are not nurgles followers so they dont benefit from epi

 Exergy wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Plague zombies cant purchase marks so that makes them toughness 3 correct?

yes and they are not nurgles followers so they dont benefit from epi

RAI vs RAW. They can only be taken with a special nurgle lord but they dont follow nurgle lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is the destroyer hive initiative 5 or initiative 1? Typhus speciak ability

It's not RAW vs RAI, it is just what it is. Plague Zombies are regular humans infected by a Nurgle infection; they don't necessarily follow Nurgle or are even evil, they just have no mind of their own. So if you want to use fluff to argue rules, at least do it right.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's not RAW vs RAI, it is just what it is. Plague Zombies are regular humans infected by a Nurgle infection; they don't necessarily follow Nurgle or are even evil, they just have no mind of their own. So if you want to use fluff to argue rules, at least do it right.

Wasbt arguing rules was just laughing about how silly tgat concept was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are a lot of things mentioning re-rolling spawnhood and dark apotheosis results on the chaos boon table. However in the rulebook it states for anything re-roll you only do it once and accept the 2nd result. This leads me to believe that if you roll dark apotheosis or spawn hood twice in a row that you would be stuck with that result. Am i right or would you keep re-rolling those results?

Example: boon 64

Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Here's to hoping they FAQ that special named characters can't become Spawns & Daemon Princes along with that.

 Boneblade wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Here's to hoping they FAQ that special named characters can't become Spawns & Daemon Princes along with that.

Totally separate issue, and don't hold your breath. If you're that worried about Abby turning into a spawn stick him in a mos unit with Lucius and have Lucius make and accept all the challenges while Abby slaughters the unit.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Its not breaking codex rules with rulebook rules. It states, re-roll thise results not re-roll all of those results. That is like saying eith something says turn your codex doesn't specify gane turn or player turn so you pick. It states re-roll and by the rule book that means one time if ur a spawn twice ur a spawn. No breaking any rules just abiding by them.

 Tomb King wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Its not breaking codex rules with rulebook rules. It states, re-roll thise results not re-roll all of those results. That is like saying eith something says turn your codex doesn't specify gane turn or player turn so you pick. It states re-roll and by the rule book that means one time if ur a spawn twice ur a spawn. No breaking any rules just abiding by them.

Results plural, meaning there's a possibility. It's nothing like the example you have given. Go play WoC for awhile and you'll understand how Phil Kelly's mind works when it comes to these sorts of things.

 Tomb King wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Its not breaking codex rules with rulebook rules. It states, re-roll thise results not re-roll all of those results. That is like saying eith something says turn your codex doesn't specify gane turn or player turn so you pick. It states re-roll and by the rule book that means one time if ur a spawn twice ur a spawn. No breaking any rules just abiding by them.

Except the codex specifically forbids keeping a result of spawn/apotheosis under those circumstances, and tells you to reroll the results. The codex says to break normal procedure and ignore the double reroll rule, and the big book says never reroll a reroll. When the 2 contradict codex takes priority. Reroll the reroll over and over and over again until you get a legal result such as 64 three times in a row resulting in 3d3+3 more rolls which will all turn out to be unworthy offering.

Just already seen this come up whethrr its liked or not it is based on interpretation and will need faq'd.

@Tombking

It's not open to interpretation. It's pretty specific. It states "results". Last time I checked results means more than one. Which would mean you keep rolling. RAW is pretty clear on this one.

And since codex trumps rulebook you roll until you don't become a DP or Spawn.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Tombking

It's not open to interpretation. It's pretty specific. It states "results". Last time I checked results means more than one. Which would mean you keep rolling. RAW is pretty clear on this one.

And since codex trumps rulebook you roll until you don't become a DP or Spawn.

It does say results because it refers to two different boons. Spawnhood and daemon prince. It wouldnt say re-roll spawnhood and dark apotheosis result. It is only plural to refer to two different results requiring a re-roll. (pg. 29 CSM rulebook, boon 64)

Page 5 of rulebook: No dice can be re-rolled twice regardless of the source of the re-roll. It is not trumping the codex in any means its merely stating what a re-roll is. Had the csm codex said something to the effect of re-rolling all spawnhood and dark apotheosis results or even easier just canceled out those results it wouldn't have been an issue. However, as it has been already noticed it is left too open to rule in my favor in a match if I get called on it in a game I will have to yield to it whether my lord becomes a spawn or loses all his gear and becomes a prince. Unless I see clear text or faq otherwise.

@ schadenfreude: No where in the text do I see where it states break the rules for re-rolls.

Let me remind everyone before acquisitions arise. I am not trying to hate on CSM. It was my first ever army and I actually love playing them but I am also avid about not playing anything that could be intrepid two separate ways without a clear faq I will have to rule in my disfavor or simply discuss the matter with an opponent pre-match.

So, I was thinking about Khorne Berserkers vs Basic Marines fulfilling their role, with CC weapons, marks of khorne, etc, as I bought one box of each and am considering strengths, weaknesses, options, etc. Granted I am not aware of previous stats and points costs in the 4th ed book, I am just considering what you get for the points with the codex. Note this is assumed to have a Khorne Lord in the army so they are both Troops.

8 Chaos Space Marines: 150 pts
Replace boltgun with a CC Weapon
Mark of Khorne
Icon of Wrath

8 Khorne Berzerkers: 162 Points
no upgrades

Differences? Both have Rage, Counterattack, and Furious charge, so 4 attacks a model first round at strength 5. for 12 More points, The Berserkers get a free Fearless and Weaponskill 5 upgrade. Both can take Champions with comparable gear. The only difference is the Chaos Marines get to re-roll charge rolls, and the benefit of the Icon for assault resolution. Besides the obvious flexibility of different special/heavy weapons upgrades and extra bolters Chaos Space marines get, At 8 man squads, the models cost only vary by 2 points per model (the bonus to CSM increases if you take a 20 man squad, the Icon becomes a 1ppm upgrade, versus just over 2 ppm).

Still, weaponskill 5 and Fearless for 2-3 ppm extra? That's not a bad bargain at all for the Berserkers. My army will have Khorne Demons backing them up, with A Bloodthirster, Bloodcrushers & Bloodletters filling the gap of killing Meq Infantry, so the Berzerkers may still be a more cost effective option for filling their role. Granted, if I want tactically versatile CSM with Bolters, Melta/Plasma/Heavy weapons, etc, then CSM all the way, but for dedicated hoarde killers, 4 attacks per model in 1st round of combat at w5, s5 is hard to beat.

On another note, Counterattack is a good rule for firing your bolters, as it is almost a form of insurance to keep you opponent away from assaulting you (as you still benefit).

Hate to ask this, because i know among the 11 pages they must have answered this question.

What units do you foresee competitive CSM players using most in the new codex?

Cultists are most competitive now. <.<

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Cultists are most competitive now. <.<

>.> .......

Seriously though, pretty much anything nurgle seems to be the rumored-most-competitive build. Add in a few helldrakes and forgefiends too.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Seriously though, pretty much anything nurgle seems to be the rumored-most-competitive build. Add in a few helldrakes and forgefiends too.

Hmmm nurgle always gets the love IMO i figured for sure it was old he/she/nipplepinchy's reign this codex for sure *shrug* oh well

Basically i was just wanting a kinda "This is expected- this is moderate- this is NEVER going to be use" i read the first few pages and happen to agree with the entries but just wanted the boiled down lists of "yes' and "no"s

YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, I just got my CSM codex through the post and re-costed a couple of lists.

I dropped my 2 winged DP's and took Typhus to make my PM's scoring and added in a Helldrake just for lolz... my 2500 point list went from 2491 to 2423... same number of PM's, same equipment on my units but really lost out now without two hard hitting winged princes. A real drop in mobility

My standard list - 2 winged DP's (now without anything other buffs) with CSM is now 2000 points, which was 1930 has gone up to 1991 and now the DP are much more vulnerable.

Looking forward to my rule book arriving so I can finally start playing 6th

@Tombking

You do realize that for the way you are interpreting it it would need to read more like "Do not apply **A** spawnhood or dark apothesis **RESULT**." Not "Do not apply any spawnhood or dark apothesis results"

Do you see the difference? Anyway I'll take it out of here as this is an evaluation of units and the tactics section. Maybe I'll check and see if they are already hashing it out in YMDC.

 evildrspock wrote:



Still, weaponskill 5 and Fearless for 2-3 ppm extra? That's not a bad bargain at all for the Berserkers.

You also can't lose Furious Charge since there is no icon to be sniped out. Still, not thrilling.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Tombking

You do realize that for the way you are interpreting it it would need to read more like "Do not apply **A** spawnhood or dark apothesis **RESULT**." Not "Do not apply any spawnhood or dark apothesis results"

Do you see the difference? Anyway I'll take it out of here as this is an evaluation of units and the tactics section. Maybe I'll check and see if they are already hashing it out in YMDC.

Ya I will keep it out of here I was realizing that with my last post but figured it was already mentioned. Anything further I will post in a YMDC thread.

Has anyone played with the idea of double forc org csm including an army of oblits?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, Spawns are very competitive these days. I'd stick a Lord on bike with a full unit. Point to an enemy unit on the table and go for the charge.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, Spawns are very competitive these days. I'd stick a Lord on bike with a full unit. Point to an enemy unit on the table and go for the charge.

I'll put it this way; Dreadknights are widely considered one of the most powerful units in the GK Codex right now. Yet when I had a Vindicare snipe the armour from both of mine, both of them fell apart in the blink of an eye. In other words, don't overestimate the value of a unit with no saves.

That and they are competing with Bikes and Heldrakes for the slot, both of which are better.

A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons). For 145 points, a 4 wound t5 warlord is pretty awesome, compare that to an equivalent Space Marine Captain.

Make him 175 points for a 4+ Invulnerable save and Veterans of the Long War, and you have yourself a winner.

Here is an honest question: Is the helbrute really that bad? I know Dreadnaughts took a hit in this edition, mostly with the addition of hull points and by being hit easier in CC, but are they so bad that they should never be included?

I have been thinking about fielding one with a TL HB, a combi-bolter and a power scourge to make full use of the now pretty decent crazed rule, while still keeping him somewhat cheap.

It would make him pretty good at range and in assault against most infantry bar terminators, while only costing 125 points. I would use him in a mono nurgle list, with terminators, terminator lord and 20 PM.
It's mostly because I want to use the FW Nurgle Dreadnaught with the Nurgle weapon options in a battle because I think the model is gorgeous, but I still want to know if this is a complete waste of points or not. Or If I want a close combat walker, should I just rather go with a maulerfiend?
If you were to field a proper dreadnought in a Nurgle list, what weapon options would you give him?

due to chaos artefacts being 1 per army what's the possibility of being able to take 2 artefacts for a doubles tourney since you'd have 2 armies which then create 1 force... and which 2 would be the best to take? I personally think double Dim Keys would be amazing

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Barrywise wrote:
due to chaos artefacts being 1 per army what's the possibility of being able to take 2 artefacts for a doubles tourney since you'd have 2 armies which then create 1 force... and which 2 would be the best to take? I personally think double Dim Keys would be amazing

One Dimensional Key is pretty bad, two would be terrible. In most cases, your reserves will be on before you get to activate it.

Barrywise wrote:
due to chaos artefacts being 1 per army what's the possibility of being able to take 2 artefacts for a doubles tourney since you'd have 2 armies which then create 1 force... and which 2 would be the best to take? I personally think double Dim Keys would be amazing

this annoys me. 1 per army but 2 force orgs lets me use 2 despite my codex saying otherwise?

No it doesn't.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, Spawns are very competitive these days. I'd stick a Lord on bike with a full unit. Point to an enemy unit on the table and go for the charge.

I'll put it this way; Dreadknights are widely considered one of the most powerful units in the GK Codex right now. Yet when I had a Vindicare snipe the armour from both of mine, both of them fell apart in the blink of an eye. In other words, don't overestimate the value of a unit with no saves.

That and they are competing with Bikes and Heldrakes for the slot, both of which are better.

Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking. I actually haven't had a problem with chaos' release so far and remain ignorant to what a dim key even does. But when reading the way it is put by the previous person all i can think is ... "that sounds stupid 1 per army means you only get 1 period."

Exergy wrote:Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

Heldrakes aren't better? With no explanation? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. Heldrakes are difficult to kill and can easily destroy whole units in one go. Spawn can run across the field hoping to sruvive and hold stuff up. How exactly are Spawn better? As for the Biker arguments, all of that would matter if the Spawn ever got to the enemy in one piece. Furthermore your whole argument is based on combat, which is a narrow and obviously biased way of looking at it, but the fact is 40k is a shooting game, not a combat game, and Bikes do that better.

Oh and BTW, Spawn having 3 wounds versus the Bikes 1 is irrelevant. For your full squad of 5 Spawn it takes 15 wounds to kill them all. 15 wounds also kills 5 Bikers, however the Bikers are much cheaper and much more tactically versatile. So not really a very good argument. It's like wounds are the shiny objects and the players are the magpies.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking.

Double FOC doesn't give you 2 armies, it gives you twice the amount of slots within the 1 army.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking. I actually haven't had a problem with chaos' release so far and remain ignorant to what a dim key even does. But when reading the way it is put by the previous person all i can think is ... "that sounds stupid 1 per army means you only get 1 period."

Awesome, two Abaddons in 2000 point!

Kevlar wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking. I actually haven't had a problem with chaos' release so far and remain ignorant to what a dim key even does. But when reading the way it is put by the previous person all i can think is ... "that sounds stupid 1 per army means you only get 1 period."

Awesome, two Abaddons in 2000 point!

I'm 'agin it!

my 4k army has 4 abbaddabbadoo's!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Where's this at? I'm not challenging you but I just want to read it myself Cause I have no clue how I missed it..... I may have accidentally screwed one of my friends in a casual game with the old dex cause I jumped Eppidemius from his depleted plague bearer squad to a havoc squad. I just briefed over the FAQs again but didn't see it. Is it on a different FAQ than the CSM or DoC FAQs?

 Benamint wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Where's this at? I'm not challenging you but I just want to read it myself Cause I have no clue how I missed it..... I may have accidentally screwed one of my friends in a casual game with the old dex cause I jumped Eppidemius from his depleted plague bearer squad to a havoc squad. I just briefed over the FAQs again but didn't see it. Is it on a different FAQ than the CSM or DoC FAQs?

Page 27. Daemonic Rivalry

Chaos Daemon independent characters can never join units with different marks, or any allied units. No allied independent characters may join chaos daemon units.

Its a stupid rule. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons aren't really even battle brothers.

That was my thoughts, aside from the sharing of rules like Fateweavers bubble and Eppi's tally. So much for shoving Eppi in a cultist mob to keep him alive!

 Benamint wrote:
That was my thoughts, aside from the sharing of rules like Fateweavers bubble and Eppi's tally. So much for shoving Eppi in a cultist mob to keep him alive!

Fateweaver bubble got nerfed in the FAQ. They can't really nerf the tally because it even works for your opponent's nurgle units. So it certainly should work for your own allies.

Kevlar wrote:

 Benamint wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Where's this at? I'm not challenging you but I just want to read it myself Cause I have no clue how I missed it..... I may have accidentally screwed one of my friends in a casual game with the old dex cause I jumped Eppidemius from his depleted plague bearer squad to a havoc squad. I just briefed over the FAQs again but didn't see it. Is it on a different FAQ than the CSM or DoC FAQs?

Page 27. Daemonic Rivalry

Chaos Daemon independent characters can never join units with different marks, or any allied units. No allied independent characters may join chaos daemon units.

Its a stupid rule. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons aren't really even battle brothers.

Here's the Chaos Daemons FAQ inquiry. Still, I converted the Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut tonight with the new Aspiring Champion model, works perfect for a lord with the Axe of Blind Fury.

Chaos Daemons FAQ wrote:Page 27 – Daemonic Rivalry.
The second paragraph should be changed to: “Independent
characters in this list cannot join units of Daemons belonging
to a different Chaos God, units of Furies of Chaos, or any allied
units. Equally, allied independent characters may never join
units chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons”.

Wait so daemons can't join a unit, but the IC's can still be included as allies right? and isn't there a nurgle greater Daemon that gives slow and purposeful to all of your army's units? and then would this make Noise Marines cheese as they could move and shoot full distance and shots?

Ummm no not that I know of, pretty much all Nurgle Daemons are Slow and purposeful aside from Nurglings. Even if there was it wouldn't be affecting guys without Mark Of Nurgle.

No IC's from either side may join units of the other codex, concerning CSM and Demons.

Demons have all had an errata like the other codexes saying that any instance of "your army" is replaced with "Models chosen from Codex: Chaos Demons" to prevent that. Otherwise, Thousand Suns/Fateweaver combo would be the best army in the game (entire army gets rerollable 3+/4++!).

 evildrspock wrote:
No IC's from either side may join units of the other codex, concerning CSM and Demons.

Demons have all had an errata like the other codexes saying that any instance of "your army" is replaced with "Models chosen from Codex: Chaos Demons" to prevent that. Otherwise, Thousand Suns/Fateweaver combo would be the best army in the game (entire army gets rerollable 3+/4++!).

fateweaver+weaken resolve =

I used the plague zombies and the 20 man unit of cultist with mark of nurgle tonight. I ran typhus with the 20 man squad to make them fearless. I found the 20 man squad to be a lot more effective. The zombies are just objective holders from what i have seen so far. I didn't realize you cant take them more then 10 models(been debated to no end so no use debating it atm as it will need faq'd). I might avoid plague zombies until I can take them in larger numbers as they just die real fast.

The good thing about spawns over bikers, is that bikers can get what, 3 attacks on the charge? Spawn have Rage and can get 8 attacks on the charge On average 3 spawns will kill four terminators in CC

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Thats a ridiculous tactic. Because your trukk parked 25 inches away is out of range of my obliterators and every other long range gun, blastmaster included.

The squad is around 230 - 260 points for 10 man and i dont know about the sorcerer. The sorcerer seems a bit of a waste but its only there for the buff.

FYI people on warboss cocaine, they strike last (you always give them a PK) and are not very tough. Being an ork player for 2 years i know this, mega armour bosses and other bosses are flimsy. MA is the points sink and lives slightly longer, but normal ones are glass cannons with 3 wounds and a pants save. Normal ones just get completely flopped by manticores.

More importantly why are you putting them in a trukk?

Your imba tactic is easily countered by a winged DP, vector strike the trukk, challenge and rip the warboss to pieces. AP2.

So inorder to counter 250 points you use 600-750pts? (noise marines, dp and sorcerer) I play 1000pt games with my trukk spam and you don't even have legal list (no troops). Also if you assult my warboss you die. My boyz always have a pk nob so in assult you challenge, I decline and my nob and boyz kill your dp. MA warboss vs dp aint even that risky. I don't know how many attacks dp gets on charge but dp can't instakill warboss and I get to reroll 2 save with boyz and cybork. Str 10 pk is pretty sweet against deamon prices.

And MA warboss is cheap as chips. MA warboss was flimsy but then 6th edition happened.

EDIT:
Also you can't vector strike and assault on the same turn. Vector strike a 40point trukk then get blasted away by 1000points of orks

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Thats a ridiculous tactic. Because your trukk parked 25 inches away is out of range of my obliterators and every other long range gun, blastmaster included.

The squad is around 230 - 260 points for 10 man and i dont know about the sorcerer. The sorcerer seems a bit of a waste but its only there for the buff.

FYI people on warboss cocaine, they strike last (you always give them a PK) and are not very tough. Being an ork player for 2 years i know this, mega armour bosses and other bosses are flimsy. MA is the points sink and lives slightly longer, but normal ones are glass cannons with 3 wounds and a pants save. Normal ones just get completely flopped by manticores.

More importantly why are you putting them in a trukk?

Your imba tactic is easily countered by a winged DP, vector strike the trukk, challenge and rip the warboss to pieces. AP2.

So inorder to counter 250 points you use 600-750pts? (noise marines, dp and sorcerer) I play 1000pt games with my trukk spam and you don't even have legal list (no troops). Also if you assult my warboss you die. My boyz always have a pk nob so in assult you challenge, I decline and my nob and boyz kill your dp. MA warboss vs dp aint even that risky. I don't know how many attacks dp gets on charge but dp can't instakill warboss and I get to reroll 2 save with boyz and cybork. Str 10 pk is pretty sweet against deamon prices.

And MA warboss is cheap as chips. MA warboss was flimsy but then 6th edition happened.

Or, we can just use the 115 point 4 autocannon havocs to blast your trukks away, turn 1.

 Orkaswampa wrote:
The good thing about spawns over bikers, is that bikers can get what, 3 attacks on the charge? Spawn have Rage and can get 8 attacks on the charge On average 3 spawns will kill four terminators in CC

Two problems here: first and foremost the same mistake so many people bring up; being better in assault doesn't make you better in general. I'm starting to sound like a broken record no doubt constantly pointing out how 40k is a shooting game, but that's still the way it is. And even that aside, every element doesn't need to compete in the assault phase. Spawn still have no saves so rely on cover (which is only a 5+) and so usually take casualties before combat (just 10 Marines with Bolters should have 1 dropped before they reach on turn 2). The Bikes also get to shoot, meaning they don't even have to assault, and if they do they get to soften up the enemy first. And this is all ignoring the Spawn's randomness in combat, which is why people are only using them are tarpits.

Second problem, and bigger issue, is where you got the idea that 3 Spawn kill 4 Terminators on average. Even on the charge, those Spawn have 6 attacks each on average. That's 18 attacks. 9 hits, 6 wounds, 1 Terminator dead. 1, not 4. Terminators strike back, hit 4 times, do 3 wounds, 1 Spawn dead. Termies win. Not sure what sort of math you are using, but it's mega wrong.

Don't get me wrong, Spawn are a good unit, but like Thousand Sons they seem to have developed a fan club where people are giving them way too much credit than what they actually do. If this was a game all about assault a tide of Spawn might do better than tie things up, but as it is those guns will bear a mark on them pretty quickly, and a good list under a smart opponent could easily get more than just 1 round of shooting at them before combat.

@Godless
Nurgle Spawns are resilient to a degree in shooting, being beasts they are good at getting into cover, and being T6 with 3 wounds is the only reason i would consider them. Yeah i accidently wrote on average, i meant to put on a 6 and didnt take wound rolls into account :L Rushed typing isnt good really. I see your point

@illuknasia
A DP is I8, with 5 attacks base. It can halve its attacks in order to smash attack and insta kill your MA warboss (it will be S10 then..). It is AP2. Ive played orks up to 4k for 2 years competitively, i know how flimsy a warboss is when not properly protected as well as how weak trukks are unless you've loads of them, but that tactic doesnt work great anyway.

The best way to play a warboss is either on a bike (T6), in a wagon with a load of nobz (imba) or in a mob of 30 boyz (not common). At the end of the day a warboss is dead if he walks past chimera vets. He can assault the chimera and kill it, then get 6 plasma to the face and die.

 Bonde wrote:
Here is an honest question: Is the helbrute really that bad? I know Dreadnaughts took a hit in this edition, mostly with the addition of hull points and by being hit easier in CC, but are they so bad that they should never be included?

I have been thinking about fielding one with a TL HB, a combi-bolter and a power scourge to make full use of the now pretty decent crazed rule, while still keeping him somewhat cheap.

It would make him pretty good at range and in assault against most infantry bar terminators, while only costing 125 points. I would use him in a mono nurgle list, with terminators, terminator lord and 20 PM.
It's mostly because I want to use the FW Nurgle Dreadnaught with the Nurgle weapon options in a battle because I think the model is gorgeous, but I still want to know if this is a complete waste of points or not. Or If I want a close combat walker, should I just rather go with a maulerfiend?
If you were to field a proper dreadnought in a Nurgle list, what weapon options would you give him?

Still no opinions on the new dreadnaughts/helbrutes? The revised crazed table is a lot more forgiving and also only comes into play when you actually take a proper hit. Also with the new CC options, a middle of the road helbrute with power scourge and a shooty weapon seems like a decent (not competitive, but decent) option.

It's not that Helbrutes are bad, but that every role it fulfils can be fulfilled better by another unit.

 Sasori wrote:



Or, we can just use the 115 point 4 autocannon havocs to blast your trukks away, turn 1.

There is a 50% chance that you blast trukks away when it's too late and terrain has been invented that prevent los or atleast give me cover.

And you need 460 poinst of havocs to take all trukks in turn 1 as hovocs aint long fangs (460 is half of your army without hq or troops).

What's better for Havocs? Auto cannon or Missile Launcher?

 Bonde wrote:

Still no opinions on the new dreadnaughts/helbrutes? The revised crazed table is a lot more forgiving and also only comes into play when you actually take a proper hit. Also with the new CC options, a middle of the road helbrute with power scourge and a shooty weapon seems like a decent (not competitive, but decent) option.

I've used Hellfire Helbrutes (sic!) with good effect in my Chosen MSU army. They are a decent AT unit and have a very good synergy with Forgefiends. Other than that, i guess they are kinda' like a lost cause. Especially the close-combat variant.

 Orkaswampa wrote:


@illuknasia
A DP is I8, with 5 attacks base. It can halve its attacks in order to smash attack and insta kill your MA warboss (it will be S10 then..). It is AP2. Ive played orks up to 4k for 2 years competitively, i know how flimsy a warboss is when not properly protected as well as how weak trukks are unless you've loads of them, but that tactic doesnt work great anyway.

So lets assume I let you assult (and not just shoot dp with sluggas, big shootas, rokkits and with a dakkajet)

You challenge and I have possibility to decline (and let boyz and pk nob to beat you up). I'll accept. You get 3 instakilling attacks, you hit on 3+ and wound on 2+. I get 5++ with 1 or 2 rerolls. If my math is correct you can get 16% chance to get a wound through. So you should expect 0.49 wounds on my boss.

If my boss is super duper lucky he gets 4 attacks that hit on 4+ and wound on 2+ and you get 5++ with no rerolls. So my boss on average gets 1.11 wounds through.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Exergy wrote:Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

Heldrakes aren't better? With no explanation? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. Heldrakes are difficult to kill and can easily destroy whole units in one go. Spawn can run across the field hoping to sruvive and hold stuff up. How exactly are Spawn better? As for the Biker arguments, all of that would matter if the Spawn ever got to the enemy in one piece. Furthermore your whole argument is based on combat, which is a narrow and obviously biased way of looking at it, but the fact is 40k is a shooting game, not a combat game, and Bikes do that better.

Oh and BTW, Spawn having 3 wounds versus the Bikes 1 is irrelevant. For your full squad of 5 Spawn it takes 15 wounds to kill them all. 15 wounds also kills 5 Bikers, however the Bikers are much cheaper and much more tactically versatile. So not really a very good argument. It's like wounds are the shiny objects and the players are the magpies.

helldrakes cost 170, and are little more survivable than a vendetta. They are not particularly good at killing other aircraft with the hades autocannon and with the flamer they are a one trick poney. If your opponent clumps, he dies, if he doesnt he will lose 3-4 models. He wont lose any on the 1st turn and perhaps half the turns after that. For me it is a decent choice but by no means must take.

As I said, spawn are beasts so they should always be in cover. So those 15 wounds take 22.5 wounds to kill. 5 bikes will take 15 ap4 or worse wounds but once you get to AP3 or less bikes only have a 5+ cover from moving and sometimes not even that. Then they drop much faster. Also they are not fearless, so bikes can be broken in combat or in shooting, which is a big deal. Bikes are indeed better at shooting, but really there are many many things in the codex that are better at shooting than bikes.

 Exergy wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Exergy wrote:Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

Heldrakes aren't better? With no explanation? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. Heldrakes are difficult to kill and can easily destroy whole units in one go. Spawn can run across the field hoping to sruvive and hold stuff up. How exactly are Spawn better? As for the Biker arguments, all of that would matter if the Spawn ever got to the enemy in one piece. Furthermore your whole argument is based on combat, which is a narrow and obviously biased way of looking at it, but the fact is 40k is a shooting game, not a combat game, and Bikes do that better.

Oh and BTW, Spawn having 3 wounds versus the Bikes 1 is irrelevant. For your full squad of 5 Spawn it takes 15 wounds to kill them all. 15 wounds also kills 5 Bikers, however the Bikers are much cheaper and much more tactically versatile. So not really a very good argument. It's like wounds are the shiny objects and the players are the magpies.

helldrakes cost 170, and are little more survivable than a vendetta. They are not particularly good at killing other aircraft with the hades autocannon and with the flamer they are a one trick poney. If your opponent clumps, he dies, if he doesnt he will lose 3-4 models. He wont lose any on the 1st turn and perhaps half the turns after that. For me it is a decent choice but by no means must take.

As I said, spawn are beasts so they should always be in cover. So those 15 wounds take 22.5 wounds to kill. 5 bikes will take 15 ap4 or worse wounds but once you get to AP3 or less bikes only have a 5+ cover from moving and sometimes not even that. Then they drop much faster. Also they are not fearless, so bikes can be broken in combat or in shooting, which is a big deal. Bikes are indeed better at shooting, but really there are many many things in the codex that are better at shooting than bikes.

^This, arguing that spawns aren't as good is just ill informed. Those three choices fulfill wildly different rolls and to me it is silly to compare them in a vacuum.

If a list can shoot down 15 T6 5++ wounds on turn one then its over 2000 and it's most of the army. Guide warwalkers even fail at that job, in fact it takes three full squads of guided scatter walkers to kill that unit in one turn and that does not cost 180, not even close considering you need eldrad who out costs that by himself, and that will evaporate bikes.

Imo, you take 10 or 15 spawns, or none at all. Two Helldrakes or none, and a large squad of bikers or 3x 3 bikers (max out special weapons).

5 spawns arent enough, and one helldrake isnt a threat at all compared to 2. Not enough target saturation and if it gets interceptor killed straight away you're screwed against their flyers.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's not that Helbrutes are bad, but that every role it fulfils can be fulfilled better by another unit.

Hmm, I guess that you are right, it isn't really a specified unit, and isn't all that hard to kill, it's just that the new Forge/Maulerfiends costs as much money wise as a FW dread does, so you might as well order one of the gorgeous models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

Still no opinions on the new dreadnaughts/helbrutes? The revised crazed table is a lot more forgiving and also only comes into play when you actually take a proper hit. Also with the new CC options, a middle of the road helbrute with power scourge and a shooty weapon seems like a decent (not competitive, but decent) option.

I've used Hellfire Helbrutes (sic!) with good effect in my Chosen MSU army. They are a decent AT unit and have a very good synergy with Forgefiends. Other than that, i guess they are kinda' like a lost cause. Especially the close-combat variant.

Hellfire? What weapon loadout did you exactly give it? Lascannon and missile launcher? Or Reaper autocannon and ML? I can see the point if you want a shooty walker army, with 3 dreads and 3 forgefiends you have quite a lot of shooting.

 Bonde wrote:

Hellfire? What weapon loadout did you exactly give it? Lascannon and missile launcher? Or Reaper autocannon and ML? I can see the point if you want a shooty walker army, with 3 dreads and 3 forgefiends you have quite a lot of shooting.

Twin-linked lascannon + missile launcher. I only brough 2 of them alongside with 2 Forgefiends and 1 full-LC Predator. They were pretty cool, advancing with my Chosen Rhinos and playing the role of the DerpMagnet.

I noticed a really good build for the regular csm squads.

10 guys with ccw, boltguns and Bolt Pistol with 2 Flamers and a Power Weapon. Optional Mark of Slaanesh or Khorne with their respective icon.

Stick them in a Rhino and bomb them up the board. Disembark and see if the enemy come to you. I doubt they'll risk charging as you have two flamers and more so if you have a Mark.

Khorne will give you counter attack and Slaanesh gives you I5. Pretty nasty.

So from what I can tell,

1K sons are still bad, which is a shame. Sorcerers are more interesting.

DPs are now pretty difficult to use, but Helldrakes and Forgefiends could be the new fall units?

illuknisaa wrote:There is a 50% chance that you blast trukks away when it's too late and terrain has been invented that prevent los or atleast give me cover.

On average that unit of Havocs takes 3.5HP from a Trukk, and that's ignoring damage from Penetrating Hits. No offence but most of your posts have been in the vein of 'my Ork is a badass so he can do anything'. The situations you are presenting just aren't realistic, and are mostly bias concoctions in a vain attempt to make your Ork look like he's better than a whole Chaos army.

illuknisaa wrote:And you need 460 poinst of havocs to take all trukks in turn 1 as hovocs aint long fangs (460 is half of your army without hq or troops).

This is one of those cases where a very big is needed. Havocs not being Long Fangs doesn't matter; if you are taking an army of Trukks then you've probably already lost as just about anything in the Chaos army can destroy them with ease. The statement in brackets needs and ; no offence but it just makes no sense whatsoever.

AtoMaki wrote:I've used Hellfire Helbrutes (sic!) with good effect in my Chosen MSU army. They are a decent AT unit and have a very good synergy with Forgefiends.

What is a Hellfire Helbrute?

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Imo, you take 10 or 15 spawns, or none at all. Two Helldrakes or none, and a large squad of bikers or 3x 3 bikers (max out special weapons).

5 spawns arent enough, and one helldrake isnt a threat at all compared to 2. Not enough target saturation and if it gets interceptor killed straight away you're screwed against their flyers.

Well said, not enough people realise the downfalls of isolation choices.

For the record though, I wasn't the one that started the comparisons in a vacuum. But if life gives you lemons, and you decide to squirt them in my eyes, well...

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Imo, you take 10 or 15 spawns, or none at all. Two Helldrakes or none, and a large squad of bikers or 3x 3 bikers (max out special weapons).

5 spawns arent enough, and one helldrake isnt a threat at all compared to 2. Not enough target saturation and if it gets interceptor killed straight away you're screwed against their flyers.

There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

I do have an ambition to field 15 MoN spawn with MoN oblits and Auto havocs and using cultists with fearless HQs for objectives, but I will gak my pants at the first sight of a venom spam list. But this is where my point lies, spamming is susceptible to hard counters and I think 6th rewards diverse lists for using allies.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Well said, not enough people realise the downfalls of isolation choices.

For the record though, I wasn't the one that started the comparisons in a vacuum. But if life gives you lemons, and you decide to squirt them in my eyes, well...

If a choice is isolated it isn't do to a lack of spamming, it's due to poor list design.

Correct me if I am wrong here but you are the one who keeps suggesting that there are only 1 or 2 choices per FoC slot that are viable, so maybe you are the lemon peddler.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:There is a 50% chance that you blast trukks away when it's too late and terrain has been invented that prevent los or atleast give me cover.

On average that unit of Havocs takes 3.5HP from a Trukk, and that's ignoring damage from Penetrating Hits. No offence but most of your posts have been in the vein of 'my Ork is a badass so he can do anything'. The situations you are presenting just aren't realistic, and are mostly bias concoctions in a vain attempt to make your Ork look like he's better than a whole Chaos army.

If you can't see me, you can't shoot me=0 HP per turn. My flgs gaming tables usually have like a bastion sized piece of terrain for both sides in their deployment zone I can easily hide 4 behind that

havocs.......B== 2 rows of trukks

The original debate was that noise marines suck (aka are too expensive) at what they do.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:And you need 460 poinst of havocs to take all trukks in turn 1 as hovocs aint long fangs (460 is half of your army without hq or troops).

This is one of those cases where a very big is needed. Havocs not being Long Fangs doesn't matter; if you are taking an army of Trukks then you've probably already lost as just about anything in the Chaos army can destroy them with ease. The statement in brackets needs and ; no offence but it just makes no sense whatsoever.

On average you have 50% chance to get the first turn. If you get first turn you have a good chance to criple my army so that I almost automatically lose. The thing is that trukk do only one thing and that is moving from A to B. When the trukk manage to do that they have made their points back.

To make that happen I hope I get the first turn because that way I don't have to worry about being blow up in my deployment zone. If I don't get first turn I try to minimize casulties via terrain and enemy's weapons range. In this case it's los blocking terrain for hovocs and out of range for noise marines. I can't really counter deamon prince's vector strike but I can shoot him afterwards.

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

Spawn are not deamons, so no 5++, but you get easy cover saves running through terrain, IIRC.

Red Corsair wrote:There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points.

What you keep forgetting is in theory this sounds fine, but you won't always have the option of moving full pace toward the enemy while also staying in cover; you may be forced to slow down a bit in order to keep cover, which gives the opponent a turn to move back away from them.

Red Corsair wrote:If a choice is isolated it isn't do to a lack of spamming, it's due to poor list design.

Correct me if I am wrong here but you are the one who keeps suggesting that there are only 1 or 2 choices per FoC slot that are viable, so maybe you are the lemon peddler.

Two problems here; firstly you have no idea what an isolated choice is obviously, so I'll get to that in a minute and explain it to you. Secondly, you either haven't bothered reading many of my posts, have the memory span of a goldfish, or are just making stuff up. I distinctly said Heldrakes, Bikers, Spawn, and Raptors are all viable choices for FA in the list I made for Wurrzog. I just said Heldrakes and Bikes are the better two of that bunch. So count them, 1, 2, 3, 4 viable choices in my opinion, not 1 or 2.

More importantly here is what an isolated choice is. Isolated choices are taking singles choices of various units. Most units work best when you take two units of them, as one is easy to isolate and neutralise while having a second gives redundancy. This has long been the case in 40k and pretty much was the birth of spam armies. As Orkaswampa pointed this out, I commended him on it, as so many players on the net think that just because something is good, taking one of them is enough, but this often isn't the case.

And most importantly, neither of these have anything to do with comparing units in a vacuum, nor does it somehow automatically twist reality to a point where I somehow started such a debate. I gave a list to a poster of what I thought were the yes, no, and maybe choices for a CSM list, and someone else decided to disagree by comparing one unit of Spawn and one unit of Bikes. And that poster was the one that started that debate, not me.

So no offense, but please get your facts straight next time you wanna jump at me and tell me I'm doing things that I'm not.

 Sanctjud wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

Spawn are not deamons, so no 5++, but you get easy cover saves running through terrain, IIRC.

Awww welcome back bro eh Let the animal avatars unite

As cool as spawn are, the flexibility of bikers (i,e having guns, having special guns that can fullfill roles, and being an excellent companion to a biker lord) puts them over spawn for me. In the above away team, why not have a pair of biker squads?

@Godless
OK, now I am starting to think you are a troll. I know what you meant by isolation and I disagree with it.

Spam is simply an easy button for most players as they only need to master the interactions of a few different unit types but by no means does a spam list outpace a well made "isolation" list as you put it. Which by the way is completely laughable that you coin a title and expect the world to keep pace or agree with you.

Example, a unit of raptors, bikes, and spawn are all viable together as they move the same pace in the movement phase and have the capability to compliment each other. A good general would have no problem fielding all three in a list to lethal effect.

See Alex Fennels necron army if you disagree, every unit is a one of, yet he has placed in the top 4 at adepticon and the nova. This isn't because he is lucky, this is because he understands how every choice in his list interacts with the others so he doesn't need redundancy. These are the best lists as they have no hard counter. They are also the most difficult, so I can understand if you don't get it.

Saying that all are viable but 1-2 are the best options is weak. You are simply covering your bases while still advocating 1-2 options. According to you options A and B are better then C and D and spamming is the best strategy. So yeah, according to your own line of reasoning the only smart choice is to bring all A or B. Yes, this is what you are advocating.

Also please stop targeting people and stick to the material being discussed. I don't care how hot headed you are, the forum tenets still apply. I would rather continue an intelligent constructive discussion with you then degenerate the forum into flaming each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihallah wrote:

 Sanctjud wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

Spawn are not deamons, so no 5++, but you get easy cover saves running through terrain, IIRC.

Awww welcome back bro eh Let the animal avatars unite

As cool as spawn are, the flexibility of bikers (i,e having guns, having special guns that can fullfill roles, and being an excellent companion to a biker lord) puts them over spawn for me. In the above away team, why not have a pair of biker squads?

For me the duel roll of bikes is conflicting. If you trick them out for combat they still do it worse then spawn. If you give them ranged gear, they are now escorting a couple special weapons around and are wasting their CC ability. That said I do like the flexibility but I would still rather have a massive fearless wall of meat at a discount. Spawn have a large footprint and are incredibly resilient, way more so then bikes. Not many weapons can deal with 15 T6 wounds, that's a fact and the major roll is gona be deal with them or get hammered in assault. In the meantime your oblits and auto havocs are torrenting them. For me bikes not being fearless means they require an HQ on a bike or they are not reliable, the icon is too easily sniped out of the unit.

Chaos spawn are the new wraith IMO. 15 are only 540 which is disturbing. I honestly can't think of much that can kill 45 T6 wounds in one shooting phase. Put a MoN biker lord at the front and now you have a 3+ 4++.

EDIT'ed out; this isn't the place for this.

Jihallah wrote:As cool as spawn are, the flexibility of bikers (i,e having guns, having special guns that can fullfill roles, and being an excellent companion to a biker lord) puts them over spawn for me. In the above away team, why not have a pair of biker squads?

This is what I've been saying. Though personally I will only have one Bike squad because I want two Heldrakes.

illuknisaa wrote: If you get first turn you have a good chance to criple my army so that I almost automatically lose. The thing is that trukk do only one thing and that is moving from A to B. When the trukk manage to do that they have made their points back.

To make that happen I hope I get the first turn because that way I don't have to worry about being blow up in my deployment zone. If I don't get first turn I try to minimize casulties via terrain and enemy's weapons range. In this case it's los blocking terrain for hovocs and out of range for noise marines. I can't really counter deamon prince's vector strike but I can shoot him afterwards.

Cool, see this makes a lot more sense than what you were saying before. And for the record, I agree that the Daemon Prince was not a very good solution put forth against Orks.

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons). For 145 points, a 4 wound t5 warlord is pretty awesome, compare that to an equivalent Space Marine Captain.

Make him 175 points for a 4+ Invulnerable save and Veterans of the Long War, and you have yourself a winner.

He can't join bloodcrushers.

I think a redundancy of roles is more important than a redundancy of units.

So for example you dont want just one vehicle on the table, you want 3-4 at least, they dont all have to be fiends, brutes, or defilers, just have to have a few on the table.

You want more than one type of range anti tank, so that could be havocs, forgefiends, and oblits.

Short range, get bikes, melta squads, etc.

Spam is just people taking the same unit to fill the same role multiple times, instead of diversifying.

 Omegus wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons). For 145 points, a 4 wound t5 warlord is pretty awesome, compare that to an equivalent Space Marine Captain.

Make him 175 points for a 4+ Invulnerable save and Veterans of the Long War, and you have yourself a winner.

He can't join bloodcrushers.

this was addressed, and duly noted.

 evildrspock wrote:


Here's the Chaos Daemons FAQ inquiry. Still, I converted the Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut tonight with the new Aspiring Champion model, works perfect for a lord with the Axe of Blind Fury.

Chaos Daemons FAQ wrote:Page 27 – Daemonic Rivalry.
The second paragraph should be changed to: “Independent
characters in this list cannot join units of Daemons belonging
to a different Chaos God, units of Furies of Chaos, or any allied
units. Equally, allied independent characters may never join
units chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons”.

However, it still stands, the 175 point version is disgustingly good. He runs with a large infantry blob for protection, until he's approximately 18" away from a likely target, he launches off on his own and single handedly wrecks light vehicles, ANY regular unit of infantry ... even small squads of terminators should fear him. The challenges help him survive and get out of assault on your opponent's turn, T5 means he won't auto die to Powerfists ... the lists of bonuses continues on. The cavalry rule is almost wrong.

He only thing I'm not sure of for a Mono-Khorne army is Halberds, though I guess that's not new for any army. I guess some chosen with special weapons, maybe? or more plasma/combi plasma on regular CSM squads, or special weapon Havocs in Rhinos with Destroyer Blades.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

illuknisaa wrote: If you get first turn you have a good chance to criple my army so that I almost automatically lose. The thing is that trukk do only one thing and that is moving from A to B. When the trukk manage to do that they have made their points back.

To make that happen I hope I get the first turn because that way I don't have to worry about being blow up in my deployment zone. If I don't get first turn I try to minimize casulties via terrain and enemy's weapons range. In this case it's los blocking terrain for hovocs and out of range for noise marines. I can't really counter deamon prince's vector strike but I can shoot him afterwards.

Cool, see this makes a lot more sense than what you were saying before. And for the record, I agree that the Daemon Prince was not a very good solution put forth against Orks.

To be honest it isn't that bad idea. Have a unit of havocs blow up a trasport and then try to assault orks with the dp and if you pull off the turn 1 assault you can start moving bolter marines (two units of 10) with a slaanesh sorceror to the midfield and start shooting the orks who are occupied with the prince.

You could also use maulerfiend but getting the charge is riskier and you would have less AA.

 Leth wrote:
I think a redundancy of roles is more important than a redundancy of units.

This is something I should have clarified on when I was posting earlier, but I failed to do so , and you are absolutely right. If two units fill the same role then having one of each obviously isn't usually any worse than having two of one; the only exception is when one performs the role much better than the other. But that's also down to how competitive you want your list then as well, which is a whole other topic.

Usually IMO its not a matter of doing it better, but it does it slightly differently.

A forgefiend is going to do it with high strength volume of fire that is going to be subjected to a very bell curve effect. However against fliers that BS3 doesn't matter and lots of shots is key.

Havocs have the ability to take lots of different weapons and are cheaper, however they lack the mobility to re-deploy when necessary.

Obliterators are slower, much lower volume of fire, but designed to be more one shot, one kill. They lack the volume of fire, but can make up for it with the versatility, toughness, and deep strike.

 Leth wrote:
Usually IMO its not a matter of doing it better, but it does it slightly differently.

A forgefiend is going to do it with high strength volume of fire that is going to be subjected to a very bell curve effect. However against fliers that BS3 doesn't matter and lots of shots is key.

Havocs have the ability to take lots of different weapons and are cheaper, however they lack the mobility to re-deploy when necessary.

Obliterators are slower, much lower volume of fire, but designed to be more one shot, one kill. They lack the volume of fire, but can make up for it with the versatility, toughness, and deep strike.

I agree, I see no problem with 1 unit of each for a balanced, tactically versatile army. How else can you conveniently take lascannons, (or heck assault cannons), without paying for the most expensive upgrade (Oblilts)? How else can you spam s8 effectively (Forgefiend)? How else can you get Flakk missiles, or cheap Autocannons (Havocs)? Not their only uses, but having many roles. From playing Eldar, I know having only s8 sucks for av 13/14 targets, having some s9 or s10, or melta is nice for those heavily armored targets, So I'd say 3 forgefiends would be a poor choice, unless you can find room to make that up somewhere else (Chosen w/Meltas? Deepstriking DP trying to assault? iffy)

These are just some examples for why I prefer having different units for each slot, as previously said; you do the same thing, slightly differently.

 Leth wrote:
Usually IMO its not a matter of doing it better, but it does it slightly differently.

A forgefiend is going to do it with high strength volume of fire that is going to be subjected to a very bell curve effect. However against fliers that BS3 doesn't matter and lots of shots is key.

Havocs have the ability to take lots of different weapons and are cheaper, however they lack the mobility to re-deploy when necessary.

Obliterators are slower, much lower volume of fire, but designed to be more one shot, one kill. They lack the volume of fire, but can make up for it with the versatility, toughness, and deep strike.

No doubt in those examples you are right. I am talking about in a general sense though, not just CSM and not just the example given. There are situations were two units fulfil the same role but one does it much better making it the no-brainer choice; it's the whole problem with the internally imbalanced codices. Otherwise competitive choices and non-competitive choices wouldn't exist as everything would be viable. It's not always the case, but it happens enough in 40k.

Simply put, it is not a good idea to spam on principle, but its not a good idea to isolate on principal either. Take what is right for the army being built.

Another benefit of that approach is the modelling opportunities provided by having three very different units.

Anyway, regarding the OP analysis:

 Sephyr wrote:
So, the book it mostly out. Having given it a good read, let's study the units and rules in it and leave the fluff and finer details for later.
Plague Marines: Plagues got a bit pricier, but remain a good package. Sadly there is no way to boost their FNP back to the glorious 4+ it once was. On the plus side, they now have poisoned CCWs. That means that against T4 and lower they will always be re-rolling to wound, making them far more efficient, and make them a threat again MCs, Wraithlords and even C’tan in CC. Their one downside is that being fearless, they cannot go to ground, which would give them an amazing 3+cover save (2+ if the shooter is within 8 inches due to defensive grenades!).

Going to ground doesn't stack with defensive grenades. I'm guessing this situation assumes Aegis line?