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@Godless
Nurgle Spawns are resilient to a degree in shooting, being beasts they are good at getting into cover, and being T6 with 3 wounds is the only reason i would consider them. Yeah i accidently wrote on average, i meant to put on a 6 and didnt take wound rolls into account :L Rushed typing isnt good really. I see your point

@illuknasia
A DP is I8, with 5 attacks base. It can halve its attacks in order to smash attack and insta kill your MA warboss (it will be S10 then..). It is AP2. Ive played orks up to 4k for 2 years competitively, i know how flimsy a warboss is when not properly protected as well as how weak trukks are unless you've loads of them, but that tactic doesnt work great anyway.

The best way to play a warboss is either on a bike (T6), in a wagon with a load of nobz (imba) or in a mob of 30 boyz (not common). At the end of the day a warboss is dead if he walks past chimera vets. He can assault the chimera and kill it, then get 6 plasma to the face and die.

 Bonde wrote:
Here is an honest question: Is the helbrute really that bad? I know Dreadnaughts took a hit in this edition, mostly with the addition of hull points and by being hit easier in CC, but are they so bad that they should never be included?

I have been thinking about fielding one with a TL HB, a combi-bolter and a power scourge to make full use of the now pretty decent crazed rule, while still keeping him somewhat cheap.

It would make him pretty good at range and in assault against most infantry bar terminators, while only costing 125 points. I would use him in a mono nurgle list, with terminators, terminator lord and 20 PM.
It's mostly because I want to use the FW Nurgle Dreadnaught with the Nurgle weapon options in a battle because I think the model is gorgeous, but I still want to know if this is a complete waste of points or not. Or If I want a close combat walker, should I just rather go with a maulerfiend?
If you were to field a proper dreadnought in a Nurgle list, what weapon options would you give him?

Still no opinions on the new dreadnaughts/helbrutes? The revised crazed table is a lot more forgiving and also only comes into play when you actually take a proper hit. Also with the new CC options, a middle of the road helbrute with power scourge and a shooty weapon seems like a decent (not competitive, but decent) option.

It's not that Helbrutes are bad, but that every role it fulfils can be fulfilled better by another unit.

 Sasori wrote:



Or, we can just use the 115 point 4 autocannon havocs to blast your trukks away, turn 1.

There is a 50% chance that you blast trukks away when it's too late and terrain has been invented that prevent los or atleast give me cover.

And you need 460 poinst of havocs to take all trukks in turn 1 as hovocs aint long fangs (460 is half of your army without hq or troops).

What's better for Havocs? Auto cannon or Missile Launcher?

 Bonde wrote:

Still no opinions on the new dreadnaughts/helbrutes? The revised crazed table is a lot more forgiving and also only comes into play when you actually take a proper hit. Also with the new CC options, a middle of the road helbrute with power scourge and a shooty weapon seems like a decent (not competitive, but decent) option.

I've used Hellfire Helbrutes (sic!) with good effect in my Chosen MSU army. They are a decent AT unit and have a very good synergy with Forgefiends. Other than that, i guess they are kinda' like a lost cause. Especially the close-combat variant.

 Orkaswampa wrote:


@illuknasia
A DP is I8, with 5 attacks base. It can halve its attacks in order to smash attack and insta kill your MA warboss (it will be S10 then..). It is AP2. Ive played orks up to 4k for 2 years competitively, i know how flimsy a warboss is when not properly protected as well as how weak trukks are unless you've loads of them, but that tactic doesnt work great anyway.

So lets assume I let you assult (and not just shoot dp with sluggas, big shootas, rokkits and with a dakkajet)

You challenge and I have possibility to decline (and let boyz and pk nob to beat you up). I'll accept. You get 3 instakilling attacks, you hit on 3+ and wound on 2+. I get 5++ with 1 or 2 rerolls. If my math is correct you can get 16% chance to get a wound through. So you should expect 0.49 wounds on my boss.

If my boss is super duper lucky he gets 4 attacks that hit on 4+ and wound on 2+ and you get 5++ with no rerolls. So my boss on average gets 1.11 wounds through.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Exergy wrote:Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

Heldrakes aren't better? With no explanation? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. Heldrakes are difficult to kill and can easily destroy whole units in one go. Spawn can run across the field hoping to sruvive and hold stuff up. How exactly are Spawn better? As for the Biker arguments, all of that would matter if the Spawn ever got to the enemy in one piece. Furthermore your whole argument is based on combat, which is a narrow and obviously biased way of looking at it, but the fact is 40k is a shooting game, not a combat game, and Bikes do that better.

Oh and BTW, Spawn having 3 wounds versus the Bikes 1 is irrelevant. For your full squad of 5 Spawn it takes 15 wounds to kill them all. 15 wounds also kills 5 Bikers, however the Bikers are much cheaper and much more tactically versatile. So not really a very good argument. It's like wounds are the shiny objects and the players are the magpies.

helldrakes cost 170, and are little more survivable than a vendetta. They are not particularly good at killing other aircraft with the hades autocannon and with the flamer they are a one trick poney. If your opponent clumps, he dies, if he doesnt he will lose 3-4 models. He wont lose any on the 1st turn and perhaps half the turns after that. For me it is a decent choice but by no means must take.

As I said, spawn are beasts so they should always be in cover. So those 15 wounds take 22.5 wounds to kill. 5 bikes will take 15 ap4 or worse wounds but once you get to AP3 or less bikes only have a 5+ cover from moving and sometimes not even that. Then they drop much faster. Also they are not fearless, so bikes can be broken in combat or in shooting, which is a big deal. Bikes are indeed better at shooting, but really there are many many things in the codex that are better at shooting than bikes.

 Exergy wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Exergy wrote:Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

Heldrakes aren't better? With no explanation? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. Heldrakes are difficult to kill and can easily destroy whole units in one go. Spawn can run across the field hoping to sruvive and hold stuff up. How exactly are Spawn better? As for the Biker arguments, all of that would matter if the Spawn ever got to the enemy in one piece. Furthermore your whole argument is based on combat, which is a narrow and obviously biased way of looking at it, but the fact is 40k is a shooting game, not a combat game, and Bikes do that better.

Oh and BTW, Spawn having 3 wounds versus the Bikes 1 is irrelevant. For your full squad of 5 Spawn it takes 15 wounds to kill them all. 15 wounds also kills 5 Bikers, however the Bikers are much cheaper and much more tactically versatile. So not really a very good argument. It's like wounds are the shiny objects and the players are the magpies.

helldrakes cost 170, and are little more survivable than a vendetta. They are not particularly good at killing other aircraft with the hades autocannon and with the flamer they are a one trick poney. If your opponent clumps, he dies, if he doesnt he will lose 3-4 models. He wont lose any on the 1st turn and perhaps half the turns after that. For me it is a decent choice but by no means must take.

As I said, spawn are beasts so they should always be in cover. So those 15 wounds take 22.5 wounds to kill. 5 bikes will take 15 ap4 or worse wounds but once you get to AP3 or less bikes only have a 5+ cover from moving and sometimes not even that. Then they drop much faster. Also they are not fearless, so bikes can be broken in combat or in shooting, which is a big deal. Bikes are indeed better at shooting, but really there are many many things in the codex that are better at shooting than bikes.

^This, arguing that spawns aren't as good is just ill informed. Those three choices fulfill wildly different rolls and to me it is silly to compare them in a vacuum.

If a list can shoot down 15 T6 5++ wounds on turn one then its over 2000 and it's most of the army. Guide warwalkers even fail at that job, in fact it takes three full squads of guided scatter walkers to kill that unit in one turn and that does not cost 180, not even close considering you need eldrad who out costs that by himself, and that will evaporate bikes.

Imo, you take 10 or 15 spawns, or none at all. Two Helldrakes or none, and a large squad of bikers or 3x 3 bikers (max out special weapons).

5 spawns arent enough, and one helldrake isnt a threat at all compared to 2. Not enough target saturation and if it gets interceptor killed straight away you're screwed against their flyers.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's not that Helbrutes are bad, but that every role it fulfils can be fulfilled better by another unit.

Hmm, I guess that you are right, it isn't really a specified unit, and isn't all that hard to kill, it's just that the new Forge/Maulerfiends costs as much money wise as a FW dread does, so you might as well order one of the gorgeous models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AtoMaki wrote:

 Bonde wrote:

Still no opinions on the new dreadnaughts/helbrutes? The revised crazed table is a lot more forgiving and also only comes into play when you actually take a proper hit. Also with the new CC options, a middle of the road helbrute with power scourge and a shooty weapon seems like a decent (not competitive, but decent) option.

I've used Hellfire Helbrutes (sic!) with good effect in my Chosen MSU army. They are a decent AT unit and have a very good synergy with Forgefiends. Other than that, i guess they are kinda' like a lost cause. Especially the close-combat variant.

Hellfire? What weapon loadout did you exactly give it? Lascannon and missile launcher? Or Reaper autocannon and ML? I can see the point if you want a shooty walker army, with 3 dreads and 3 forgefiends you have quite a lot of shooting.

 Bonde wrote:

Hellfire? What weapon loadout did you exactly give it? Lascannon and missile launcher? Or Reaper autocannon and ML? I can see the point if you want a shooty walker army, with 3 dreads and 3 forgefiends you have quite a lot of shooting.

Twin-linked lascannon + missile launcher. I only brough 2 of them alongside with 2 Forgefiends and 1 full-LC Predator. They were pretty cool, advancing with my Chosen Rhinos and playing the role of the DerpMagnet.

I noticed a really good build for the regular csm squads.

10 guys with ccw, boltguns and Bolt Pistol with 2 Flamers and a Power Weapon. Optional Mark of Slaanesh or Khorne with their respective icon.

Stick them in a Rhino and bomb them up the board. Disembark and see if the enemy come to you. I doubt they'll risk charging as you have two flamers and more so if you have a Mark.

Khorne will give you counter attack and Slaanesh gives you I5. Pretty nasty.

So from what I can tell,

1K sons are still bad, which is a shame. Sorcerers are more interesting.

DPs are now pretty difficult to use, but Helldrakes and Forgefiends could be the new fall units?

illuknisaa wrote:There is a 50% chance that you blast trukks away when it's too late and terrain has been invented that prevent los or atleast give me cover.

On average that unit of Havocs takes 3.5HP from a Trukk, and that's ignoring damage from Penetrating Hits. No offence but most of your posts have been in the vein of 'my Ork is a badass so he can do anything'. The situations you are presenting just aren't realistic, and are mostly bias concoctions in a vain attempt to make your Ork look like he's better than a whole Chaos army.

illuknisaa wrote:And you need 460 poinst of havocs to take all trukks in turn 1 as hovocs aint long fangs (460 is half of your army without hq or troops).

This is one of those cases where a very big is needed. Havocs not being Long Fangs doesn't matter; if you are taking an army of Trukks then you've probably already lost as just about anything in the Chaos army can destroy them with ease. The statement in brackets needs and ; no offence but it just makes no sense whatsoever.

AtoMaki wrote:I've used Hellfire Helbrutes (sic!) with good effect in my Chosen MSU army. They are a decent AT unit and have a very good synergy with Forgefiends.

What is a Hellfire Helbrute?

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Imo, you take 10 or 15 spawns, or none at all. Two Helldrakes or none, and a large squad of bikers or 3x 3 bikers (max out special weapons).

5 spawns arent enough, and one helldrake isnt a threat at all compared to 2. Not enough target saturation and if it gets interceptor killed straight away you're screwed against their flyers.

Well said, not enough people realise the downfalls of isolation choices.

For the record though, I wasn't the one that started the comparisons in a vacuum. But if life gives you lemons, and you decide to squirt them in my eyes, well...

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Imo, you take 10 or 15 spawns, or none at all. Two Helldrakes or none, and a large squad of bikers or 3x 3 bikers (max out special weapons).

5 spawns arent enough, and one helldrake isnt a threat at all compared to 2. Not enough target saturation and if it gets interceptor killed straight away you're screwed against their flyers.

There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

I do have an ambition to field 15 MoN spawn with MoN oblits and Auto havocs and using cultists with fearless HQs for objectives, but I will gak my pants at the first sight of a venom spam list. But this is where my point lies, spamming is susceptible to hard counters and I think 6th rewards diverse lists for using allies.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Well said, not enough people realise the downfalls of isolation choices.

For the record though, I wasn't the one that started the comparisons in a vacuum. But if life gives you lemons, and you decide to squirt them in my eyes, well...

If a choice is isolated it isn't do to a lack of spamming, it's due to poor list design.

Correct me if I am wrong here but you are the one who keeps suggesting that there are only 1 or 2 choices per FoC slot that are viable, so maybe you are the lemon peddler.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:There is a 50% chance that you blast trukks away when it's too late and terrain has been invented that prevent los or atleast give me cover.

On average that unit of Havocs takes 3.5HP from a Trukk, and that's ignoring damage from Penetrating Hits. No offence but most of your posts have been in the vein of 'my Ork is a badass so he can do anything'. The situations you are presenting just aren't realistic, and are mostly bias concoctions in a vain attempt to make your Ork look like he's better than a whole Chaos army.

If you can't see me, you can't shoot me=0 HP per turn. My flgs gaming tables usually have like a bastion sized piece of terrain for both sides in their deployment zone I can easily hide 4 behind that

havocs.......B== 2 rows of trukks

The original debate was that noise marines suck (aka are too expensive) at what they do.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

illuknisaa wrote:And you need 460 poinst of havocs to take all trukks in turn 1 as hovocs aint long fangs (460 is half of your army without hq or troops).

This is one of those cases where a very big is needed. Havocs not being Long Fangs doesn't matter; if you are taking an army of Trukks then you've probably already lost as just about anything in the Chaos army can destroy them with ease. The statement in brackets needs and ; no offence but it just makes no sense whatsoever.

On average you have 50% chance to get the first turn. If you get first turn you have a good chance to criple my army so that I almost automatically lose. The thing is that trukk do only one thing and that is moving from A to B. When the trukk manage to do that they have made their points back.

To make that happen I hope I get the first turn because that way I don't have to worry about being blow up in my deployment zone. If I don't get first turn I try to minimize casulties via terrain and enemy's weapons range. In this case it's los blocking terrain for hovocs and out of range for noise marines. I can't really counter deamon prince's vector strike but I can shoot him afterwards.

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

Spawn are not deamons, so no 5++, but you get easy cover saves running through terrain, IIRC.

Red Corsair wrote:There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points.

What you keep forgetting is in theory this sounds fine, but you won't always have the option of moving full pace toward the enemy while also staying in cover; you may be forced to slow down a bit in order to keep cover, which gives the opponent a turn to move back away from them.

Red Corsair wrote:If a choice is isolated it isn't do to a lack of spamming, it's due to poor list design.

Correct me if I am wrong here but you are the one who keeps suggesting that there are only 1 or 2 choices per FoC slot that are viable, so maybe you are the lemon peddler.

Two problems here; firstly you have no idea what an isolated choice is obviously, so I'll get to that in a minute and explain it to you. Secondly, you either haven't bothered reading many of my posts, have the memory span of a goldfish, or are just making stuff up. I distinctly said Heldrakes, Bikers, Spawn, and Raptors are all viable choices for FA in the list I made for Wurrzog. I just said Heldrakes and Bikes are the better two of that bunch. So count them, 1, 2, 3, 4 viable choices in my opinion, not 1 or 2.

More importantly here is what an isolated choice is. Isolated choices are taking singles choices of various units. Most units work best when you take two units of them, as one is easy to isolate and neutralise while having a second gives redundancy. This has long been the case in 40k and pretty much was the birth of spam armies. As Orkaswampa pointed this out, I commended him on it, as so many players on the net think that just because something is good, taking one of them is enough, but this often isn't the case.

And most importantly, neither of these have anything to do with comparing units in a vacuum, nor does it somehow automatically twist reality to a point where I somehow started such a debate. I gave a list to a poster of what I thought were the yes, no, and maybe choices for a CSM list, and someone else decided to disagree by comparing one unit of Spawn and one unit of Bikes. And that poster was the one that started that debate, not me.

So no offense, but please get your facts straight next time you wanna jump at me and tell me I'm doing things that I'm not.

 Sanctjud wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

Spawn are not deamons, so no 5++, but you get easy cover saves running through terrain, IIRC.

Awww welcome back bro eh Let the animal avatars unite

As cool as spawn are, the flexibility of bikers (i,e having guns, having special guns that can fullfill roles, and being an excellent companion to a biker lord) puts them over spawn for me. In the above away team, why not have a pair of biker squads?

@Godless
OK, now I am starting to think you are a troll. I know what you meant by isolation and I disagree with it.

Spam is simply an easy button for most players as they only need to master the interactions of a few different unit types but by no means does a spam list outpace a well made "isolation" list as you put it. Which by the way is completely laughable that you coin a title and expect the world to keep pace or agree with you.

Example, a unit of raptors, bikes, and spawn are all viable together as they move the same pace in the movement phase and have the capability to compliment each other. A good general would have no problem fielding all three in a list to lethal effect.

See Alex Fennels necron army if you disagree, every unit is a one of, yet he has placed in the top 4 at adepticon and the nova. This isn't because he is lucky, this is because he understands how every choice in his list interacts with the others so he doesn't need redundancy. These are the best lists as they have no hard counter. They are also the most difficult, so I can understand if you don't get it.

Saying that all are viable but 1-2 are the best options is weak. You are simply covering your bases while still advocating 1-2 options. According to you options A and B are better then C and D and spamming is the best strategy. So yeah, according to your own line of reasoning the only smart choice is to bring all A or B. Yes, this is what you are advocating.

Also please stop targeting people and stick to the material being discussed. I don't care how hot headed you are, the forum tenets still apply. I would rather continue an intelligent constructive discussion with you then degenerate the forum into flaming each other.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihallah wrote:

 Sanctjud wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


There is nothing wrong with 15 T6 wounds with their own 5++ moving 12" and ignoring terrain all for a measly 180 points. I think one unit is fine to be honest, pair it with one mauler fiend and a unit of bikes with the optional HQ and you have one hell of an away team. Flexible, resilient and different enough to avoid the hard counters.

Spawn are not deamons, so no 5++, but you get easy cover saves running through terrain, IIRC.

Awww welcome back bro eh Let the animal avatars unite

As cool as spawn are, the flexibility of bikers (i,e having guns, having special guns that can fullfill roles, and being an excellent companion to a biker lord) puts them over spawn for me. In the above away team, why not have a pair of biker squads?

For me the duel roll of bikes is conflicting. If you trick them out for combat they still do it worse then spawn. If you give them ranged gear, they are now escorting a couple special weapons around and are wasting their CC ability. That said I do like the flexibility but I would still rather have a massive fearless wall of meat at a discount. Spawn have a large footprint and are incredibly resilient, way more so then bikes. Not many weapons can deal with 15 T6 wounds, that's a fact and the major roll is gona be deal with them or get hammered in assault. In the meantime your oblits and auto havocs are torrenting them. For me bikes not being fearless means they require an HQ on a bike or they are not reliable, the icon is too easily sniped out of the unit.

Chaos spawn are the new wraith IMO. 15 are only 540 which is disturbing. I honestly can't think of much that can kill 45 T6 wounds in one shooting phase. Put a MoN biker lord at the front and now you have a 3+ 4++.

EDIT'ed out; this isn't the place for this.

Jihallah wrote:As cool as spawn are, the flexibility of bikers (i,e having guns, having special guns that can fullfill roles, and being an excellent companion to a biker lord) puts them over spawn for me. In the above away team, why not have a pair of biker squads?

This is what I've been saying. Though personally I will only have one Bike squad because I want two Heldrakes.

illuknisaa wrote: If you get first turn you have a good chance to criple my army so that I almost automatically lose. The thing is that trukk do only one thing and that is moving from A to B. When the trukk manage to do that they have made their points back.

To make that happen I hope I get the first turn because that way I don't have to worry about being blow up in my deployment zone. If I don't get first turn I try to minimize casulties via terrain and enemy's weapons range. In this case it's los blocking terrain for hovocs and out of range for noise marines. I can't really counter deamon prince's vector strike but I can shoot him afterwards.

Cool, see this makes a lot more sense than what you were saying before. And for the record, I agree that the Daemon Prince was not a very good solution put forth against Orks.

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons). For 145 points, a 4 wound t5 warlord is pretty awesome, compare that to an equivalent Space Marine Captain.

Make him 175 points for a 4+ Invulnerable save and Veterans of the Long War, and you have yourself a winner.

He can't join bloodcrushers.

I think a redundancy of roles is more important than a redundancy of units.

So for example you dont want just one vehicle on the table, you want 3-4 at least, they dont all have to be fiends, brutes, or defilers, just have to have a few on the table.

You want more than one type of range anti tank, so that could be havocs, forgefiends, and oblits.

Short range, get bikes, melta squads, etc.

Spam is just people taking the same unit to fill the same role multiple times, instead of diversifying.

 Omegus wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons). For 145 points, a 4 wound t5 warlord is pretty awesome, compare that to an equivalent Space Marine Captain.

Make him 175 points for a 4+ Invulnerable save and Veterans of the Long War, and you have yourself a winner.

He can't join bloodcrushers.

this was addressed, and duly noted.

 evildrspock wrote:


Here's the Chaos Daemons FAQ inquiry. Still, I converted the Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut tonight with the new Aspiring Champion model, works perfect for a lord with the Axe of Blind Fury.

Chaos Daemons FAQ wrote:Page 27 – Daemonic Rivalry.
The second paragraph should be changed to: “Independent
characters in this list cannot join units of Daemons belonging
to a different Chaos God, units of Furies of Chaos, or any allied
units. Equally, allied independent characters may never join
units chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons”.

However, it still stands, the 175 point version is disgustingly good. He runs with a large infantry blob for protection, until he's approximately 18" away from a likely target, he launches off on his own and single handedly wrecks light vehicles, ANY regular unit of infantry ... even small squads of terminators should fear him. The challenges help him survive and get out of assault on your opponent's turn, T5 means he won't auto die to Powerfists ... the lists of bonuses continues on. The cavalry rule is almost wrong.

He only thing I'm not sure of for a Mono-Khorne army is Halberds, though I guess that's not new for any army. I guess some chosen with special weapons, maybe? or more plasma/combi plasma on regular CSM squads, or special weapon Havocs in Rhinos with Destroyer Blades.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

illuknisaa wrote: If you get first turn you have a good chance to criple my army so that I almost automatically lose. The thing is that trukk do only one thing and that is moving from A to B. When the trukk manage to do that they have made their points back.

To make that happen I hope I get the first turn because that way I don't have to worry about being blow up in my deployment zone. If I don't get first turn I try to minimize casulties via terrain and enemy's weapons range. In this case it's los blocking terrain for hovocs and out of range for noise marines. I can't really counter deamon prince's vector strike but I can shoot him afterwards.

Cool, see this makes a lot more sense than what you were saying before. And for the record, I agree that the Daemon Prince was not a very good solution put forth against Orks.

To be honest it isn't that bad idea. Have a unit of havocs blow up a trasport and then try to assault orks with the dp and if you pull off the turn 1 assault you can start moving bolter marines (two units of 10) with a slaanesh sorceror to the midfield and start shooting the orks who are occupied with the prince.

You could also use maulerfiend but getting the charge is riskier and you would have less AA.

 Leth wrote:
I think a redundancy of roles is more important than a redundancy of units.

This is something I should have clarified on when I was posting earlier, but I failed to do so , and you are absolutely right. If two units fill the same role then having one of each obviously isn't usually any worse than having two of one; the only exception is when one performs the role much better than the other. But that's also down to how competitive you want your list then as well, which is a whole other topic.

Usually IMO its not a matter of doing it better, but it does it slightly differently.

A forgefiend is going to do it with high strength volume of fire that is going to be subjected to a very bell curve effect. However against fliers that BS3 doesn't matter and lots of shots is key.

Havocs have the ability to take lots of different weapons and are cheaper, however they lack the mobility to re-deploy when necessary.

Obliterators are slower, much lower volume of fire, but designed to be more one shot, one kill. They lack the volume of fire, but can make up for it with the versatility, toughness, and deep strike.

 Leth wrote:
Usually IMO its not a matter of doing it better, but it does it slightly differently.

A forgefiend is going to do it with high strength volume of fire that is going to be subjected to a very bell curve effect. However against fliers that BS3 doesn't matter and lots of shots is key.

Havocs have the ability to take lots of different weapons and are cheaper, however they lack the mobility to re-deploy when necessary.

Obliterators are slower, much lower volume of fire, but designed to be more one shot, one kill. They lack the volume of fire, but can make up for it with the versatility, toughness, and deep strike.

I agree, I see no problem with 1 unit of each for a balanced, tactically versatile army. How else can you conveniently take lascannons, (or heck assault cannons), without paying for the most expensive upgrade (Oblilts)? How else can you spam s8 effectively (Forgefiend)? How else can you get Flakk missiles, or cheap Autocannons (Havocs)? Not their only uses, but having many roles. From playing Eldar, I know having only s8 sucks for av 13/14 targets, having some s9 or s10, or melta is nice for those heavily armored targets, So I'd say 3 forgefiends would be a poor choice, unless you can find room to make that up somewhere else (Chosen w/Meltas? Deepstriking DP trying to assault? iffy)

These are just some examples for why I prefer having different units for each slot, as previously said; you do the same thing, slightly differently.

 Leth wrote:
Usually IMO its not a matter of doing it better, but it does it slightly differently.

A forgefiend is going to do it with high strength volume of fire that is going to be subjected to a very bell curve effect. However against fliers that BS3 doesn't matter and lots of shots is key.

Havocs have the ability to take lots of different weapons and are cheaper, however they lack the mobility to re-deploy when necessary.

Obliterators are slower, much lower volume of fire, but designed to be more one shot, one kill. They lack the volume of fire, but can make up for it with the versatility, toughness, and deep strike.

No doubt in those examples you are right. I am talking about in a general sense though, not just CSM and not just the example given. There are situations were two units fulfil the same role but one does it much better making it the no-brainer choice; it's the whole problem with the internally imbalanced codices. Otherwise competitive choices and non-competitive choices wouldn't exist as everything would be viable. It's not always the case, but it happens enough in 40k.

Simply put, it is not a good idea to spam on principle, but its not a good idea to isolate on principal either. Take what is right for the army being built.