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@Tombking

You do realize that for the way you are interpreting it it would need to read more like "Do not apply **A** spawnhood or dark apothesis **RESULT**." Not "Do not apply any spawnhood or dark apothesis results"

Do you see the difference? Anyway I'll take it out of here as this is an evaluation of units and the tactics section. Maybe I'll check and see if they are already hashing it out in YMDC.

 evildrspock wrote:



Still, weaponskill 5 and Fearless for 2-3 ppm extra? That's not a bad bargain at all for the Berserkers.

You also can't lose Furious Charge since there is no icon to be sniped out. Still, not thrilling.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Tombking

You do realize that for the way you are interpreting it it would need to read more like "Do not apply **A** spawnhood or dark apothesis **RESULT**." Not "Do not apply any spawnhood or dark apothesis results"

Do you see the difference? Anyway I'll take it out of here as this is an evaluation of units and the tactics section. Maybe I'll check and see if they are already hashing it out in YMDC.

Ya I will keep it out of here I was realizing that with my last post but figured it was already mentioned. Anything further I will post in a YMDC thread.

Has anyone played with the idea of double forc org csm including an army of oblits?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, Spawns are very competitive these days. I'd stick a Lord on bike with a full unit. Point to an enemy unit on the table and go for the charge.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, Spawns are very competitive these days. I'd stick a Lord on bike with a full unit. Point to an enemy unit on the table and go for the charge.

I'll put it this way; Dreadknights are widely considered one of the most powerful units in the GK Codex right now. Yet when I had a Vindicare snipe the armour from both of mine, both of them fell apart in the blink of an eye. In other words, don't overestimate the value of a unit with no saves.

That and they are competing with Bikes and Heldrakes for the slot, both of which are better.

A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons). For 145 points, a 4 wound t5 warlord is pretty awesome, compare that to an equivalent Space Marine Captain.

Make him 175 points for a 4+ Invulnerable save and Veterans of the Long War, and you have yourself a winner.

Here is an honest question: Is the helbrute really that bad? I know Dreadnaughts took a hit in this edition, mostly with the addition of hull points and by being hit easier in CC, but are they so bad that they should never be included?

I have been thinking about fielding one with a TL HB, a combi-bolter and a power scourge to make full use of the now pretty decent crazed rule, while still keeping him somewhat cheap.

It would make him pretty good at range and in assault against most infantry bar terminators, while only costing 125 points. I would use him in a mono nurgle list, with terminators, terminator lord and 20 PM.
It's mostly because I want to use the FW Nurgle Dreadnaught with the Nurgle weapon options in a battle because I think the model is gorgeous, but I still want to know if this is a complete waste of points or not. Or If I want a close combat walker, should I just rather go with a maulerfiend?
If you were to field a proper dreadnought in a Nurgle list, what weapon options would you give him?

due to chaos artefacts being 1 per army what's the possibility of being able to take 2 artefacts for a doubles tourney since you'd have 2 armies which then create 1 force... and which 2 would be the best to take? I personally think double Dim Keys would be amazing

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Barrywise wrote:
due to chaos artefacts being 1 per army what's the possibility of being able to take 2 artefacts for a doubles tourney since you'd have 2 armies which then create 1 force... and which 2 would be the best to take? I personally think double Dim Keys would be amazing

One Dimensional Key is pretty bad, two would be terrible. In most cases, your reserves will be on before you get to activate it.

Barrywise wrote:
due to chaos artefacts being 1 per army what's the possibility of being able to take 2 artefacts for a doubles tourney since you'd have 2 armies which then create 1 force... and which 2 would be the best to take? I personally think double Dim Keys would be amazing

this annoys me. 1 per army but 2 force orgs lets me use 2 despite my codex saying otherwise?

No it doesn't.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, Spawns are very competitive these days. I'd stick a Lord on bike with a full unit. Point to an enemy unit on the table and go for the charge.

I'll put it this way; Dreadknights are widely considered one of the most powerful units in the GK Codex right now. Yet when I had a Vindicare snipe the armour from both of mine, both of them fell apart in the blink of an eye. In other words, don't overestimate the value of a unit with no saves.

That and they are competing with Bikes and Heldrakes for the slot, both of which are better.

Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking. I actually haven't had a problem with chaos' release so far and remain ignorant to what a dim key even does. But when reading the way it is put by the previous person all i can think is ... "that sounds stupid 1 per army means you only get 1 period."

Exergy wrote:Helldrakes are not better. Spawn are fast, fearless and str T 5 for CHEAP. Sure bikers cost less and have a 3+ but they dont have 3 wounds. They also only have 2 attacks while spawn have an average of 3.5 each. Spawn need cover, which as beast ignore difficult terrain, is very easy to get.

Heldrakes aren't better? With no explanation? Excuse me if I'm not convinced. Heldrakes are difficult to kill and can easily destroy whole units in one go. Spawn can run across the field hoping to sruvive and hold stuff up. How exactly are Spawn better? As for the Biker arguments, all of that would matter if the Spawn ever got to the enemy in one piece. Furthermore your whole argument is based on combat, which is a narrow and obviously biased way of looking at it, but the fact is 40k is a shooting game, not a combat game, and Bikes do that better.

Oh and BTW, Spawn having 3 wounds versus the Bikes 1 is irrelevant. For your full squad of 5 Spawn it takes 15 wounds to kill them all. 15 wounds also kills 5 Bikers, however the Bikers are much cheaper and much more tactically versatile. So not really a very good argument. It's like wounds are the shiny objects and the players are the magpies.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking.

Double FOC doesn't give you 2 armies, it gives you twice the amount of slots within the 1 army.

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking. I actually haven't had a problem with chaos' release so far and remain ignorant to what a dim key even does. But when reading the way it is put by the previous person all i can think is ... "that sounds stupid 1 per army means you only get 1 period."

Awesome, two Abaddons in 2000 point!

Kevlar wrote:

 Big Mek Wurrzog wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
No it doesn't.

I'm sure it doesn't just logical reading would make me think "1 per army" means 1 per "your army" not the 2 armies you are taking. I actually haven't had a problem with chaos' release so far and remain ignorant to what a dim key even does. But when reading the way it is put by the previous person all i can think is ... "that sounds stupid 1 per army means you only get 1 period."

Awesome, two Abaddons in 2000 point!

I'm 'agin it!

my 4k army has 4 abbaddabbadoo's!

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Where's this at? I'm not challenging you but I just want to read it myself Cause I have no clue how I missed it..... I may have accidentally screwed one of my friends in a casual game with the old dex cause I jumped Eppidemius from his depleted plague bearer squad to a havoc squad. I just briefed over the FAQs again but didn't see it. Is it on a different FAQ than the CSM or DoC FAQs?

 Benamint wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Where's this at? I'm not challenging you but I just want to read it myself Cause I have no clue how I missed it..... I may have accidentally screwed one of my friends in a casual game with the old dex cause I jumped Eppidemius from his depleted plague bearer squad to a havoc squad. I just briefed over the FAQs again but didn't see it. Is it on a different FAQ than the CSM or DoC FAQs?

Page 27. Daemonic Rivalry

Chaos Daemon independent characters can never join units with different marks, or any allied units. No allied independent characters may join chaos daemon units.

Its a stupid rule. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons aren't really even battle brothers.

That was my thoughts, aside from the sharing of rules like Fateweavers bubble and Eppi's tally. So much for shoving Eppi in a cultist mob to keep him alive!

 Benamint wrote:
That was my thoughts, aside from the sharing of rules like Fateweavers bubble and Eppi's tally. So much for shoving Eppi in a cultist mob to keep him alive!

Fateweaver bubble got nerfed in the FAQ. They can't really nerf the tally because it even works for your opponent's nurgle units. So it certainly should work for your own allies.

Kevlar wrote:

 Benamint wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 evildrspock wrote:
A Khorne Lord on a Juggernaut has Cavalry, this gives the Lord a 12" move distance, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, +1 toughness, +1 Wound, and +1 attack. Kinda nice if he runs off on his own with an Axe of Blind Fury to to wreck something with 7+1d6 attacks on the charge at s6 and ap2 (at initiative), or if he leads the Bloodcrushers (my army allies Khorne Demons).

He can't; FAQ says CSM and Daemons IC's cannot join units from the other book.

Where's this at? I'm not challenging you but I just want to read it myself Cause I have no clue how I missed it..... I may have accidentally screwed one of my friends in a casual game with the old dex cause I jumped Eppidemius from his depleted plague bearer squad to a havoc squad. I just briefed over the FAQs again but didn't see it. Is it on a different FAQ than the CSM or DoC FAQs?

Page 27. Daemonic Rivalry

Chaos Daemon independent characters can never join units with different marks, or any allied units. No allied independent characters may join chaos daemon units.

Its a stupid rule. Chaos Space Marines and Chaos Daemons aren't really even battle brothers.

Here's the Chaos Daemons FAQ inquiry. Still, I converted the Chaos Lord on a Juggernaut tonight with the new Aspiring Champion model, works perfect for a lord with the Axe of Blind Fury.

Chaos Daemons FAQ wrote:Page 27 – Daemonic Rivalry.
The second paragraph should be changed to: “Independent
characters in this list cannot join units of Daemons belonging
to a different Chaos God, units of Furies of Chaos, or any allied
units. Equally, allied independent characters may never join
units chosen from Codex: Chaos Daemons”.

Wait so daemons can't join a unit, but the IC's can still be included as allies right? and isn't there a nurgle greater Daemon that gives slow and purposeful to all of your army's units? and then would this make Noise Marines cheese as they could move and shoot full distance and shots?

Ummm no not that I know of, pretty much all Nurgle Daemons are Slow and purposeful aside from Nurglings. Even if there was it wouldn't be affecting guys without Mark Of Nurgle.

No IC's from either side may join units of the other codex, concerning CSM and Demons.

Demons have all had an errata like the other codexes saying that any instance of "your army" is replaced with "Models chosen from Codex: Chaos Demons" to prevent that. Otherwise, Thousand Suns/Fateweaver combo would be the best army in the game (entire army gets rerollable 3+/4++!).

 evildrspock wrote:
No IC's from either side may join units of the other codex, concerning CSM and Demons.

Demons have all had an errata like the other codexes saying that any instance of "your army" is replaced with "Models chosen from Codex: Chaos Demons" to prevent that. Otherwise, Thousand Suns/Fateweaver combo would be the best army in the game (entire army gets rerollable 3+/4++!).

fateweaver+weaken resolve =

I used the plague zombies and the 20 man unit of cultist with mark of nurgle tonight. I ran typhus with the 20 man squad to make them fearless. I found the 20 man squad to be a lot more effective. The zombies are just objective holders from what i have seen so far. I didn't realize you cant take them more then 10 models(been debated to no end so no use debating it atm as it will need faq'd). I might avoid plague zombies until I can take them in larger numbers as they just die real fast.

The good thing about spawns over bikers, is that bikers can get what, 3 attacks on the charge? Spawn have Rage and can get 8 attacks on the charge On average 3 spawns will kill four terminators in CC

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Thats a ridiculous tactic. Because your trukk parked 25 inches away is out of range of my obliterators and every other long range gun, blastmaster included.

The squad is around 230 - 260 points for 10 man and i dont know about the sorcerer. The sorcerer seems a bit of a waste but its only there for the buff.

FYI people on warboss cocaine, they strike last (you always give them a PK) and are not very tough. Being an ork player for 2 years i know this, mega armour bosses and other bosses are flimsy. MA is the points sink and lives slightly longer, but normal ones are glass cannons with 3 wounds and a pants save. Normal ones just get completely flopped by manticores.

More importantly why are you putting them in a trukk?

Your imba tactic is easily countered by a winged DP, vector strike the trukk, challenge and rip the warboss to pieces. AP2.

So inorder to counter 250 points you use 600-750pts? (noise marines, dp and sorcerer) I play 1000pt games with my trukk spam and you don't even have legal list (no troops). Also if you assult my warboss you die. My boyz always have a pk nob so in assult you challenge, I decline and my nob and boyz kill your dp. MA warboss vs dp aint even that risky. I don't know how many attacks dp gets on charge but dp can't instakill warboss and I get to reroll 2 save with boyz and cybork. Str 10 pk is pretty sweet against deamon prices.

And MA warboss is cheap as chips. MA warboss was flimsy but then 6th edition happened.

EDIT:
Also you can't vector strike and assault on the same turn. Vector strike a 40point trukk then get blasted away by 1000points of orks

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Thats a ridiculous tactic. Because your trukk parked 25 inches away is out of range of my obliterators and every other long range gun, blastmaster included.

The squad is around 230 - 260 points for 10 man and i dont know about the sorcerer. The sorcerer seems a bit of a waste but its only there for the buff.

FYI people on warboss cocaine, they strike last (you always give them a PK) and are not very tough. Being an ork player for 2 years i know this, mega armour bosses and other bosses are flimsy. MA is the points sink and lives slightly longer, but normal ones are glass cannons with 3 wounds and a pants save. Normal ones just get completely flopped by manticores.

More importantly why are you putting them in a trukk?

Your imba tactic is easily countered by a winged DP, vector strike the trukk, challenge and rip the warboss to pieces. AP2.

So inorder to counter 250 points you use 600-750pts? (noise marines, dp and sorcerer) I play 1000pt games with my trukk spam and you don't even have legal list (no troops). Also if you assult my warboss you die. My boyz always have a pk nob so in assult you challenge, I decline and my nob and boyz kill your dp. MA warboss vs dp aint even that risky. I don't know how many attacks dp gets on charge but dp can't instakill warboss and I get to reroll 2 save with boyz and cybork. Str 10 pk is pretty sweet against deamon prices.

And MA warboss is cheap as chips. MA warboss was flimsy but then 6th edition happened.

Or, we can just use the 115 point 4 autocannon havocs to blast your trukks away, turn 1.

 Orkaswampa wrote:
The good thing about spawns over bikers, is that bikers can get what, 3 attacks on the charge? Spawn have Rage and can get 8 attacks on the charge On average 3 spawns will kill four terminators in CC

Two problems here: first and foremost the same mistake so many people bring up; being better in assault doesn't make you better in general. I'm starting to sound like a broken record no doubt constantly pointing out how 40k is a shooting game, but that's still the way it is. And even that aside, every element doesn't need to compete in the assault phase. Spawn still have no saves so rely on cover (which is only a 5+) and so usually take casualties before combat (just 10 Marines with Bolters should have 1 dropped before they reach on turn 2). The Bikes also get to shoot, meaning they don't even have to assault, and if they do they get to soften up the enemy first. And this is all ignoring the Spawn's randomness in combat, which is why people are only using them are tarpits.

Second problem, and bigger issue, is where you got the idea that 3 Spawn kill 4 Terminators on average. Even on the charge, those Spawn have 6 attacks each on average. That's 18 attacks. 9 hits, 6 wounds, 1 Terminator dead. 1, not 4. Terminators strike back, hit 4 times, do 3 wounds, 1 Spawn dead. Termies win. Not sure what sort of math you are using, but it's mega wrong.

Don't get me wrong, Spawn are a good unit, but like Thousand Sons they seem to have developed a fan club where people are giving them way too much credit than what they actually do. If this was a game all about assault a tide of Spawn might do better than tie things up, but as it is those guns will bear a mark on them pretty quickly, and a good list under a smart opponent could easily get more than just 1 round of shooting at them before combat.