CSM 6th Codex: Unit Analysis

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**XT-1984**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
I don't see the hate for the Daemon Prince in this edition. Make him a Flyer, fly to where you want shooting stuff and than Glide next turn and assault. Sounds like a damn good unit to me, even at it's price.

And what is he going to shoot with? So he assaults, and kills one unit, and then dies. Not really worth it for a near 300pts investment.

Unless of course the unit he kills is worth more than 300 points, which is entirely possible.

Besides, its not as if he is the only model in your entire army. And its not as if your opponent will have anything effective to shoot him with by then.

I always put my Daemon Prince in reserve, and fly him on from my table edge. Gives me plently of time to kill things that might hurt him, and to put him where he will do the most damage.

Sure he could roll a 1 for his Daemon Weapon and die, but he has the same chance of rolling a 6 and wiping out a whole unit easily. Thats just the nature of Chaos and I like it.

**l0k1**

I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

**Kevlar**

XT-1984 wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
I don't see the hate for the Daemon Prince in this edition. Make him a Flyer, fly to where you want shooting stuff and than Glide next turn and assault. Sounds like a damn good unit to me, even at it's price.

And what is he going to shoot with? So he assaults, and kills one unit, and then dies. Not really worth it for a near 300pts investment.

Unless of course the unit he kills is worth more than 300 points, which is entirely possible.

Besides, its not as if he is the only model in your entire army. And its not as if your opponent will have anything effective to shoot him with by then.

I always put my Daemon Prince in reserve, and fly him on from my table edge. Gives me plently of time to kill things that might hurt him, and to put him where he will do the most damage.

Sure he could roll a 1 for his Daemon Weapon and die, but he has the same chance of rolling a 6 and wiping out a whole unit easily. Thats just the nature of Chaos and I like it.

His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

**ShadarLogoth**

His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

Um, the fact that he's an FMC with an Invulnerable save will help him against Missles and Lascannons though. And trying to imply he's not great in CC is just laughable. And you do know that MC's are AP 2 right? So if he gets past MSS (which, lets face it, your Necron opponent will only have so many such units to throw around, and as Chaos your going to have a lot more CC on the filed then just your DP), he's going to pound a Lord or Overlord into the dirt, unless they have a Phase Shifter, which is incredibly rare.

**drbored**

A day before the Codex is released and everyone is already coming to conclusions.

Scientist: "I think we should try to split this atom!"

Person: "That's a stupid idea that won't do anything."

Anyway. I can't wait to actually playtest this Codex. It seems flat, and I am too disappointed in the base vehicles, but there are so many options now. So many builds and ways to play the army! Combos and weapons that we haven't ever seen before! It's exciting, and only a lot of playtesting will reveal its weaknesses and strengths.

I have a feeling we'll see MANY tournaments with Chaos Marines placing high.

**Sephyr**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

Um, the fact that he's an FMC with an Invulnerable save will help him against Missles and Lascannons though. And trying to imply he's not great in CC is just laughable. And you do know that MC's are AP 2 right? So if he gets past MSS (which, lets face it, your Necron opponent will only have so many such units to throw around, and as Chaos your going to have a lot more CC on the filed then just your DP), he's going to pound a Lord or Overlord into the dirt, unless they have a Phase Shifter, which is incredibly rare.

Your faith in 5++ saves is touching, but that and T5 means that lascannons, missiles and autocannons and plasma will make short work of any Daemon Prince that is not in swoop mode. MCs are only AP2 when they use Smash, which really brings their volume of attacks down to almost nothing.

As for the Necron example, it doesn't hold. Necron Lords pretty much always have mindshackle scarabs exactly for this, and the Phase shifter is astoundingly common, not rare at all. In fact, the average 300-points Daemon Prince will lose 9 straight fights out of 10 with the Avatar of Khaine, which costs about half of his price.

**Kevlar**

Swoop won't save him either. People will just shoot him with flashlights first, bring him down, and then unload the heavy weapons.

300 point boat anchor. No way it sees play in any competitive list. You can ally a greater demon at a discount and have a much more powerful HQ.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

Yeah, it's a good thing that other stronger codices can't take allies.

**Knighty**

Sephyr wrote:
MCs are only AP2 when they use Smash, which really brings their volume of attacks down to almost nothing.

The smash rules state that all attacks except hammer of wrath are sp2, regardless if you're using "smash attacks" or not. So you can have your full attacks at base strength, at ap2.

(Ref. BRB pg 42)

**ShadarLogoth**

Your faith in 5++ saves is touching, but that and T5 means that lascannons, missiles and autocannons and plasma will make short work of any Daemon Prince that is not in swoop mode. MCs are only AP2 when they use Smash, which really brings their volume of attacks down to almost nothing.

Faith? It has nothing to do with faith, it merely means that 33% more of them will need to be dedicated to shooting it. That's 33% more that are shooting your DP and not you advancing other units. And has already been pointed out, you are incorrect on Smash. All MCs have AP2 all the time, Smash also allows them to halve their attacks at double S.

As for the Necron example, it doesn't hold. Necron Lords pretty much always have mindshackle scarabs exactly for this, and the Phase shifter is astoundingly common, not rare at all. In fact, the average 300-points Daemon Prince will lose 9 straight fights out of 10 with the Avatar of Khaine, which costs about half of his price.

How many Necron Lords do you see in the average Necron list? How many of those have Phase Shifters? If they aren't Nemie or Imo (who get them automatically, and, frankly, would get their fecal matter forcibly compacted by the DP), Phase Shifters are rare on Overlords, and virtually never taken on normal Lords except Royal Court Deathstars. The point remains that 99% of Necron lists won't be able to handle all the CC threats Chaos brings at once, and this is coming from someone who plays an almost completely CC dedicated Imo list.

**XT-1984**

Kevlar wrote:
His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

If my opponent is wasting his lascannons and missiles on the Daemon Prince thats fine by me. He is only T5, massed bolter / splinter / pulse / gauss fire would do a much better job.

And of course he is vulnrable to MSS, who isn't when the average on 3 D6 is 10 or 11? But he is not Warcythe Bait, how you going to do that? Not with an Overlord surely? You'd better hope he fails that MSS or else he gonna smash you at STR10 with 3+D6 Attacks (or 4+D6 if he charges). And if you were thinking of delcining and doing it with the Lychguard they'll come off even worse.

I plan on always taking Boon of Mutation for my Daemon Prince, giving him the chance to become a LOT more survivable. He could have:
+1 Armour Save (so 2+).
+1 Wound.
+ 1 Toughness.
Eternal Warrior.
Reroll Failed Armour Saves.

If I'm totally honest, I don't think the Daemon Prince will be featuring in any 'perfect' tournament lists, not when you can get a mastery level 3 sorcerer for 110 points. But that won't stop me from taking him for fun.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

XT-1984 wrote:
Kevlar wrote:
His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

If my opponent is wasting his lascannons and missiles on the Daemon Prince thats fine by me. He is only T5, massed bolter / splinter / pulse / gauss fire would do a much better job.

And of course he is vulnrable to MSS, who isn't when the average on 3 D6 is 10 or 11? But he is not Warcythe Bait, how you going to do that? Not with an Overlord surely? You'd better hope he fails that MSS or else he gonna smash you at STR10 with 3+D6 Attacks (or 4+D6 if he charges). And if you were thinking of delcining and doing it with the Lychguard they'll come off even worse.

He also does a lot more than 2-3 Wounds a turn with the Black Mace. He has 6+D6 on Charge, Hatred Marines, Fleshbane. And if he causes one Wound everyone within 3" must take a Toughness Test or suffer a Wound. Don't think I have to explain the math on that to prove its a little more than 2-3.

I plan on always taking Boon of Mutation for my Daemon Prince, giving him the chance to become a LOT more survivable. He could have:
+1 Armour Save (so 2+).
+1 Wound.
+ 1 Toughness.
Eternal Warrior.
Reroll Failed Armour Saves.

If I'm totally honest, I don't think the Daemon Prince will be featuring in any 'perfect' tournament lists, not when you can get a mastery level 3 sorcerer for 110 points. But that won't stop me from taking him for fun.

**autopilot**

Typhus + 35 unit of zombies + Epi

Destroyer Hive your own unit.

**illuknisaa**

Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

**ShadarLogoth**

But Noise Marines can take BM's, and I5 Space Marines is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, their basic salvo bolters are going to absolutely shread Kabalite Warriors/Guard/Orcs/etc.

**Bonde**

This was an overall good review of the book. The most negative thing I would say about it, would be that it needs an FAQ ASAP.

**cute-hydra**

Hi guys, I am looking to do a full codex review... should I post it on the end of one of these threads or start a new one and should it be in general/articles/tactics

Thanks

**Benamint**

Most likely a new one

**A Town Called Malus**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Something everybody seems to miss about the DP is it's WS 9 now. That means most units in the game are going to need a 5+/6+ and for him to fail a 3+ (if you gave him armor) just to wound him in CC. That's pretty damn boss. It's Lilith with S/T7 and wings (and less attacks of course).

But he loses Eternal Warrior. Tau players (like me) are laughing when your expensive Daemon gets splattered across the table from a single Railgun shot (after having to evade and crashing into the ground after being hit by Markerlights)

**Kevlar**

A Town Called Malus wrote:
ShadarLogoth wrote:
Something everybody seems to miss about the DP is it's WS 9 now. That means most units in the game are going to need a 5+/6+ and for him to fail a 3+ (if you gave him armor) just to wound him in CC. That's pretty damn boss. It's Lilith with S/T7 and wings (and less attacks of course).

But he loses Eternal Warrior. Tau players (like me) are laughing when your expensive Daemon gets splattered across the table from a single Railgun shot (after having to evade and crashing into the ground after being hit by Markerlights)

Right, which is exactly why my new demon prince is my allied blood thirster. Better stats, eternal warrior, and cheaper.

**Red Corsair**

autopilot wrote:
Typhus + 35 unit of zombies + Epi

Destroyer Hive your own unit.

lol why make them zombies? Normal cultists would die faster....

**illuknisaa**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
But Noise Marines can take BM's, and I5 Space Marines is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, their basic salvo bolters are going to absolutely shread Kabalite Warriors/Guard/Orks/etc.

Expensive noise marines are allowed to buy something for more points isn't a good game design.

I haven't had any trouble dealing warriors, guard or orks with basic bolters.

Sure i5 is great but its' kinda pointless when half of you shot miss, half don't wound and only a third is able to penetrate armor. If I had overwatch or assault weapons i5 might be worth something.

**Red Corsair**

LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

**Niiai**

Red Corsair wrote:
LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

Sometimes I feel they do a good job. Sometimes it seems like playtesting is just something they make up they to sound smart. I mean...does Mr. Kelly not understand basic things in life? "To wear this t-shirt you need to wear another t-shirt." I bet he was really into grunge when he grew up.

**scimitar**

illuknisaa wrote:
Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats. However, the reason to take them is that both their sonic blaster and doom siren both ignore cover. That makes them an excellent hard counter to the ridiculous cover saves from invisibility, shrouded and aegis shenanigans that are popular in 6th.

**Red Corsair**

Niiai wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

Sometimes I feel they do a good job. Sometimes it seems like playtesting is just something they make up they to sound smart. I mean...does Mr. Kelly not understand basic things in life? "To wear this t-shirt you need to wear another t-shirt." I bet he was really into grunge when he grew up.

Ha ha, kudos to the infinite T-shirt loop

**Palindrome**

Red Corsair wrote:
LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

I suspect that it is intended to be used by DPs,except of course they can't use it (currently)

**illuknisaa**

scimitar wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats. However, the reason to take them is that both their sonic blaster and doom siren both ignore cover. That makes them an excellent hard counter to the ridiculous cover saves from invisibility, shrouded and aegis shenanigans that are popular in 6th.

Ha! I wounded 3 of your mahreens and now you can't use your 2+ cover and have to resort to your miserably bad 3+ armor save. Suck on that!

Fear my stereos of DOOOOM!! The ap3 goodiness will melt your mahreens in no time. What? A terminator armoured libby sitting infront of your squad?

**Canadian 5th**

illuknisaa wrote:
scimitar wrote:
illuknisaa wrote:
Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats. However, the reason to take them is that both their sonic blaster and doom siren both ignore cover. That makes them an excellent hard counter to the ridiculous cover saves from invisibility, shrouded and aegis shenanigans that are popular in 6th.

Ha! I wounded 3 of your mahreens and now you can't use your 2+ cover and have to resort to your miserably bad 3+ armor save. Suck on that!

Fear my stereos of DOOOOM!! The ap3 goodiness will melt your mahreens in no time. What? A terminator armoured libby sitting infront of your squad?

If you're not skilled enough to get that AP3 template over something that isn't AP2 that sounds like your issue, not the games.

**Hashulaman**

I'm having trouble deciding if I want Hades cannons, All ectoplasm cannons, or the mix for my Forgefiend. Same situation for my Helldrake. I don't know if I want the Baleflamer or Hades. I know it's early, but opinions would be appreciated.

**l0k1**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

Yeah, it's a good thing that other stronger codices can't take allies.

Oh I know they do, I've seen the SW/IG lists. These are played by WAAC players. Which IG and SW codices were not designed for 6th edition rules.

Honestly all I'm hearing is more of the same old crying. "Our dex isn't obviously the #1 dex." Seriously? "Daemon Princes such now!!!" Boo hoo! Now all of you named characters are at least playable!! Hell you don't even HAVE to take them to take specific units as troops! Wish I could take a cheap build a bear HQ to get Purifiers instead taking Crowe. Chaos players really need to get over themselves and their 2 yr old mentality.