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So, the book it mostly out. Having given it a good read, let's study the units and rules in it and leave the fluff and finer details for later.

CSM Codex Roundup

Chaos Space Marines: Our basic MeQ troop. Cheaper than before, but also more bare-bones: Morale took a small hit and gone is the swiss-army-knife combo of bolter, pistol and ccw. However, you can now pay to get those back…and more. So now chaos players have a choice: flood the table with cheap basic marines or juice them up as much as you require. You can have dedicated shooty units to hang back in cover, CC-specialist units meant to charge forward, tough objective sitters…you name it.

Chaos Cultists: These guys are alright. Literally a dime a dozen, they are fun to play around with. You can get a small unit to hang in ruins or a bunker guarding an objective, a huge blob to serve as a meatshield around important stuff (Oblits, Daemon engines). Keep in mind that against gaunts, orks and some IG infantry, they can actually cause some casualties, but don’t think they will even fix a situation alone. They are great for combos, though, such as making your enemy pick overwatch on the human wave of CC attacks from the cultists or the sole Daemon Prince/zerker unit also charging them.
Thousand Sons: There got a bit of Love in the new book, but not quite enough. Price remains really high, and they still cannot fire that sweet AP3 overwatch that we all dreamed about. Their main problem, however is the need to stick to Tzeentch powers, easily the worst in the codex. For every time you luck out and get Doombolt, you will also have to deal with Firestorm and Gift that are situational at best.

Plague Marines: Plagues got a bit pricier, but remain a good package. Sadly there is no way to boost their FNP back to the glorious 4+ it once was. On the plus side, they now have poisoned CCWs. That means that against T4 and lower they will always be re-rolling to wound, making them far more efficient, and make them a threat again MCs, Wraithlords and even C’tan in CC. Their one downside is that being fearless, they cannot go to ground, which would give them an amazing 3+cover save (2+ if the shooter is within 8 inches due to defensive grenades!).

Noise Marines: Much cheaper and more flexible now. Sonic Blasters are still pricey, but now they get Ignores Cover, meaning it can be a decent static horde-killer. It’s still much more efficient to just avoid that and grab a Doom Siren for a cheaper, faster, deadly unit. The free Initiative boost gives the champion a leg up on challenges dealing with MEQs, so a power sword is also a good investment that will have him reaping rewards really fast.

Khorne Berserkers: A bit cheaper, though now they lose an attack after the first turn of CC. The Khornate Chainaxe upgrade makes them into truly vicious killers of any sub-MeQ armor. They already had the spotlight in that regard, but now they can be made more effective against units that had high numbers and an armor save good enough to make them less efficient. This can work against you sometimes; against shooty armies, you want CC to go on another round so your zerkers don’t get shot into oblivion after wiping the enemy out. Also, the champion can now carry a combi-weapon!

Daemon Prince: Gone are the days of fielding two of these guys. Even for games at 2500 points and beyond, you are usually better off fielding Abbie or a really pimped Lord/sorcerer instead. To get a DP at the same level of power from 5th (psyker, winged, 3+ save), you’re already looking at some 230 points! Granted, their statline got an extra attack and higher Initiative, but losing eternal Warrior makes them really vulnerable against IG, Tau and vindicators. So now the DP went from cheap tank to a pricey, delicate tactical weapon that requires finesse to use.

They do not get the benefits of their Chaos god marks, bizarrely enough. So no Counterattack or Rage to Khorne princes, no T6 to Nurgle Princes…it’s pathetic, and the upgrades are mandatory. And at Ld9, he’s a rather lousy pysker.

Obliterators: These actually got better. A tiny bit cheaper, and that frees up points to purchase marks, which makes a lot of difference. Nurgle (to avoid ID from melta and lascannons) and Tzeentch (for a more reliable 4+ invulnerable save) are both solid picks. The addition of the Assault Cannons makes them much better in dealing with hordes at range and light vehicles as well. It’s not possible to shoot the same weapon 2 shooting phases in a row, but that is not a big handicap. If you field 2 units, they can take turns popping vehicles/melting the passengers. The lack of Overwatch and Fearless for them is a bummer, though.

Chaos Havocs: These guys are flexible and affordable. Being the first unit in the game able to take a flakk missile upgrade, they are bound to pop in if you face tons of flyers. Be realistic about what they can do, though: S7 is not that grand against AV11 and even less impressive against AV12. Once you remember that many games will also have Night Fighting making their range pitifully short, they start to seem a bit lackluster, as their extra rules do not help shooty units. Given how crowded the chaos HS is, most people will still take oblits and trust the Helldrake and DP to kill or distract enemy flyers. But they should pop up more in lower-point games.

Mutilators: These are aggressively average. Not a bad price for 2-wound TeQs, but the criminally low max-unit size and low volume of attacks hurts them a lot. They work best as escorts for a really, really killy HQ than punching faces themselves, as 12 attacks are all you can hope to get out of them without a Khorne mark. The sad thing is, 12 power fist attacks is not that much when you aim to kill most competitive CC units out there (they all tend to have a 3++ somewhere), and they lack the volume of attacks to deal with hordes. Also, a fighty, small elite unit with SaP? For shame.

Abaddon: The Warmaster is still expensive, but far more reliable than before. Now you can avoid the risk of his daemon weapon rebelling in order to simply unleash 5-6 S8 attack from the Talon at AP3, meaning that you can wreck regular MeQs without a care. If you feel bold or face 2+ armor, then Drach’nyen come s into play at S5, AP2 and extra attacks. He also makes Chosen troops and radiates Preferred Enemy: Marines in a big bubble.

Huron: Who’s imagine, Huron is actually quite handy now. He no longer has a Power fist, but an AP3, S6 CCW with the Shred and Armourbane rule that is remarkably useful. It can wreck vehicles, toss out a whole lot of wounds at I5, and if he’s facing terminators he can resort to his axe. He retains his heavy flamer, and now the Hamadrya is a random power rolled each turned. Sadly it allows no primaries defaulting, but it may get Divination powers with some luck! His invul save is also improved.

Lucius: Another fun surprise. It only makes sense that top duelist of the 40K universe would take to the challenge mechanic like a duck to water. In a challenge, he replaces his Attacks value with the WS of his enemy. He still carries a regular power sword and rocks the Doom siren, but his lash now adds the shred rule to his attacks, making up for his low strength! He still tosses out S4, AP2 attacks whenever he makes a regular or Invulnerable save.

Typhus: Typhus is a beast now. No longer fearing S8 instant death, a solid psyker, and carrying a Force Weapon that gets re-rolls to wound against most enemies you will ever meet and can deal with 2+ armor. Nurgle powers are also rather solid, meaning you can use psychic powers to thin hordes and then have Typhus engage heavy hitters in CC. Still costs a wallop, but he is fluffier and killier than before. Just be careful with his Destroyer Hive ability, as it hits friendly models as well (even those marked Nurgle!)

Ahriman: Our favorite Powerslave is now the hottest psyker in the game at Mastery 4! Sadly, one of those has to be from the terminally lame Tzeentch power list, but other than that, he’s grand. 3 witchfires per turn means a lot of firepower, but also a lot of risk if you face Eldar or Nids. His foresight now lets you infiltrate d3 Infantry units, which can be a good way to get Oblits or Thousand Sons into good firing positions. Shame he doesn’t have a spell familiar. His staff also acts as S6 in melee, making it easier for him to wound and force-kill enemies, but armor will still be an issue.

Kharn the Betrayer: Everyone’s favorite fire-and-forget tac nuke is back! Now his psy-immunity just became a very strong Deny the Witch which he shares with his squad. He lost one attack, but hits a little harder to make up for it. Still wearing only regular Power Armor and at T4, you can expect him to die to any PF/TH out there, so you better be lucky with your LoS rolls.

Fabius Bile: For once, something less random. Fabius is almost unchanged, but now he simply upgrades a unit of vanilla chaos marines for free with Fearless and +1S. Not bad, but he really seems lackluster compared to the other HQs. Guess his internship with the Haemunculi on Comorragh didn’t turn out that well. Maybe if he was an upgrade character he’d be worth it, but as is, he’s only for fans.

Chaos Lord: Starts out cheap, but also naked. You can buy him tons of stuff, though, so have a build in mind. He can be marked, pick fun arcane artifacts and so on. Important now because he unlocks cult units as troops, which is something you want. He can buy a 4++ save now, though it costs more than a Storm Shield.

Sorcerer: Same as the Lord, but with powers instead of some options and with one less wound, closer to loyalist Librarians. If marked with Tzeentch, it makes 1K Sons troops. Sadly the Tzeentch list is easily the worst of all the disciplines, a kick in the nuts of the god of magic. Why take this guy and not just go full Ahriman? Because he is customizable up the wazoo and can actually get re-rolls on casting powers, which WILL save your bacon if you face Eldar or Nid Shadow in the Warp. Also, he can get a 3++ save.

Chosen: Sadly, these guys no longer infiltrate unless you roll the right Warlord Trait. Now they are just Aspiring Champions with a metric ton of gear they can purchase. Solid, but can get very expensive very fast. Use them as a scalpel to fill tactical gaps in your army (which they can do, other than anti-aircraft fire). Need anti-tank? 4 meltaguns. Dealing with hordes? 4 flamers. Time to teach a Tervigon or Mephiston a lesson? 4 plasmaguns. Loading them with CC stuff is overkill and redundant with other units, though you may want to toss some gear on the champion for challenges.

Dark Apostle: Good for Word Bearer warbands, but not that great unless you have some Boon shenanigans planned. They have very few options, meaning you better need another power armor guy with an AP4 weapon, because you’re not getting anything else. His Leadership bubble is good if you are running lots of basic marines, but he packs no punch. He could really use a Terminator Armor upgrade.

Warpsmith: A bit fun at 4 attacks base with his tentacles and with a built-in selection of special weapons, this guy is durable and may help keep your Land Raider and Daemon Engines going a bit longer. His machine curse is only good against vehicles that fire a LOT, and even then it’s only half a chance to take away a hull point. Use it on Stormravens. Crusader Land Raiders, Monoliths and some LRBT variants. Degrade terrain is very situational and even if you need it, it’ll likely only make the cover save of a Stealthy Shrouded unit a little bit less amazing.

Raptors: Beautiful models, but they get no new utility. Not cheap enough to spam or killy enough to really take on challenges. Fear is a useless ability. And for once, there are better options in the FA slot.

Warp Talons: Nice, but way overpriced. The book has many better ways of killing MeQs than these expensive, fragile daemon hybrids. Who can carry no special weapons for tank-popping and character-sniping and have almost no defense against a bad scatter if Deep-Striking to use their Blind ability. If Deep-Striking them, they can also arrive too soon or too late for their ability to really help break the line in coordination with the arrival of the rest of your offense.

Chaos Bikers: Now, there’s a lot of potential here. These guys got a lot cheaper and have a real T5 now (T6 if marked Nurgle, though that gets expensive). Shame they can’t ever become troops, because Slaanesh bikers at I5, T5 and FNP would be an amazing force to field. As is, they are definitely an attractive escort for a Khorne Lord on a bike or juggernaut, a Nurgle Lord on a bike and so on.

Helldrake: Not bad. Not great, but not bad. Could be a bit cheaper as it is only BS3 and had rather limited weaponry, though. Again, GW apparently really trusts little extra rules that give you a 5+ chance of doing something as a way to increase point costs. Its S7 Vector Strike will not really scare Stormravens and Vendettas, so if you face a lot of those you should need the Hades. If enemy flyers are not an issue, the torrent weapon really shines for killing heavy infantry and has great range combined with the drake’s movement.

Chaos Land Raider: A big letdown. More expensive, same carrying capacity, same weapon options. Daemonic possession makes it eat the expensive troops it was meant to protect, so skip it. Still lacks PotMS or anything similar. They just got lazy here, and I hope this means a WD update soon (it doesn’t). On the bright side, you can now get a dirge caster to keep enemies nearby from firing overwatch. Also, shame that Berserkers or Abaddon cannot take one as a dedicated transport, which would help un-crowd the HS slot.

Chaos Terminators: A bit pricier, but even more flexible now that you have both marks and icons to play around with (with outrageous prices). Weapon options are unchanged, but prices got a bit fiddled with and can get prohibitive for some combos..

Chaos Spawn: A bit cheaper, slightly less useless. Not something really worth purchasing unless you really want to go fluffy, but oddly enough some naked champions might benefit from becoming one in some situations. One could even run a nurgle unit of them for T6, fast tarpitting purposes or to give a squishy sorcerer tons of wounds, but there are better uses for your FA slots.

Chaos Possessed: A bit less random, still hideously overpriced and without a hat to call their own. A 5++ does not really make them that durable. You can get better CC out of a similar point value of zerkers and even properly marked regular chaos marines.

Hellbrutes: Amazing models, and the Crazed rule now makes more sense and is more beneficial. However, they suffer from the lack of a drop pod delivery; that means they are quite easy to shoot down as they make their way to engage the enemy.

Defiler: Actually a lot worse. Still shoots and fights poorly but strongly, but it’s far more expensive now. It gains a 5+ save and a weak regeneration, but at AV12 it’s simply not going to last whenever someone directs any real power at it. Daemonforge once per game doesn’t really help as the Defiler’s main problem has always been hitting stuff, not wounding of penetrating.

Forgefiends: Now that’s some decent dakka. S8 plasma cannons are a real threat, as it means you can ID T4 models wearing terminator armor quite simply. But that’s also a lot of chances to have Gets Hot eat your Hull Points. Also, AV12 on something so big makes it relatively easy to deal with for the enemy. Hades cannons are a safer and useful choice, even if you’ll usually only get 4 hits out of them, and they really benefit from daemonforge due to the high volume of attacks.

Maulerfiends: Sadly even more of a gamble than their forge brothers. TheForgefiend at least can sit behind an aegis line and be a threat, but this guy is running right into melta range to be insta-popped. It’s strong, but like all daemon engines it’s not a very good fighter and has very few attacks. On the bright side, it is very fast, and anything it hits is in for a lot of pain. Just a sad thing that in the case of all daemon engines, the devs really think a 5+ somewhere is a good substitute to actually being tough.

Rhino: As boring as ever. It can fix itself once in a blue moon. Cannot be marked, be made fast of open-topped. You cannot assault out of it even if it is stationary, or if it blew up the turn before because its ghost delays the survivors with its boxiness. Unlike the ghost of a Land Raider which is sleek and agile.

Codex Strengths:

-Troops: Chaos lost the ability to field a whole variety of troops at will, but it can still pick a very powerful mix of scoring units. They just need to be more focused now: no more Kharn leading lots of scoring Plague Marines. That said, now you can pick between numbers and quality and spam the hell out of your favorite cult troop, with cheap cultists filling in gaps.

-Durable shooting: CSM units remain flexible in their selection of special weapons and can be made quite resilient. They cannot be a true gunline just sitting back and firing away, but if you can take good mid-field positions, you can put a lot of hurt into the enemy with Oblits, the Drake, infantry plasma/meltaguns and maybe a plasma forgefiend sitting behind a well-placed Aegis line.

-Powerful CC: We still have nothing like the pure crack of TH/SS terminators, Death Company or Force-weapon-happy GKs, but the level of CC competence across the units is still very comfortable. You can expect Skull and Noise Champions to come out on top of most challenges with other unit sergeants and our HQ’s remain beastly in personal combat. Only now they may becomes Spawns if they win.

-Flexibility: A very big plus. There is a good balance of shooty and fighty across units, and Lords, Sorcerers, troops and infantry can all be configured to your little heart’s content.

The Holes in the Book:
Now let’s take a quick look at what CSM lacks.

-Night Vision: Would really help in making Night Lords warbands, but not a big hit. We have searchlights for emergencies. I just like the idea of Night Lods infantry sneaking in the dark toward IG lines and then pouncing.

-Deep Strike Guidance: A rather glaring oversight since it was in the book before and now it’s all but gone (a single artifact). It also does not work with allied demons, which is just bulls%#t.

-Good elite transports: Our land Raiders have less room than a StormRaven and you can’t assault out of anything else. They really should have thought of an open-topped upgrade for rhinos.

-Finesse: CSM must always make and accept challenges. Nearly all units now have a mandatory champion in there somewhere to make sure you can’t avoid this. Way to really shove your new rule down our throats, devs! This robs lots of CC control from chaos close combat. The enemy can just feed single models to our nightmares and preserve the bulk of their forces, minimizing our charge bonus, Furious Charge and Counter-attack.

-Tactical Rules: Nothing in the codex Infiltrates unless you get it from a random roll. Nothing Scouts either. Lots of Deep Strike, but it is unguided as icons no longer prevent scatter and personal icons are gone. Nothing has Stealth or Shrouded in any meaningful capacity. Nothing to help or integrate Allies. Get your guys, walk forward is the strategic depth of the book.

-Spammable flyers and/or flyer defense: At most you’ll be getting 3 of each, at a premium. That’s enough for ‘balanced’ play, mind you, but will not help against a dedicated Airforce that can throw 6 flyers at you and still have points left for more killy, durable stuff.

-Efficient MCs: Daemon Princes now need to fear bone swords, force weapons, any S10 stuff out there, and they are not that much killier to make up for it. Unless you are desperate for an extra flyer that will nosedive and take a wound whenever it is hit, there are pretty much always better options than to field it. Easily the worst MC in the game in his point range.

-Randomness: Not as bad as it could be, but still there. There is still an awful lot of expensive stuff in the book that is not reliable and can easily hurt you. Daemonic Possession of transports is just asking to lose Abaddon or Typhus to a hungry dice roll. Possessed may still rock or bust based on a roll, same thing for artifacts, the Hamadrya, boons…. We’re still second only to Orks in fear of rolling a 1 at the wrong time. Maybe.

Even the chaos boon table can be bad when it is good, turning your nifty biker Nurgle Lord with tons of cool wargear into a naked Prince that can no longer join his unit of nurgle bikers. And with a lower Toughness, to boot.

Final Opinion: I’m not sure any book could have met the level of expectation and rumors CSM had accumulated. However, taking a cold look at it, it’s a bit flat. Those who said this codx is the 4th edition book with some extra development were right on target. It’s not quite the letdown Tyranids 5th was, but close.

It’s odd how anything potentially 'dangerous' was stripped from this codex. No Lash of Submission. No Overwatch with Inferno bolts or obliterator weapons. Gift of Mutation can’t make Daemon Princes. Daemon Weapons are just artifacts and limited in use, and outrageously costed. There is nothing on the level of Thunderwolves, CCB Overlords, Night Scythes or Vendettas here. Don’t expect to see it top any tournament rankings, but it may have some fun combos in there for casual play.

Just a few quick remarks:

Thosuand Sons: Yes, the Tzeentch powers are rather lame, but getting the Bolt isn´t THAT hard. You do re-roll 5-6 results after all!

Obliterators: They still come with a P-Fist!

Chaos Lord: He is also a rather cheap way to make a unit fearless! Cultist horde, anyone?

Sorcerer: They´re also dirt-cheap, even with additional levels. Love ´em.

Spawn: I think at 36 points with the MoN those are a steal, if you have the slot(s) free. They soak up wounds, can pack quite a punch and a frankly ridiculous with Epidemus shenanigans.

Things I´m really digging right now that I didn´t expect are how cheap Marks come, how awesome Dirge Casters are and how cool all of the special characters are.

Main let-down is the lack of Daemon Weapons available. ;(

I am glad that they converted the Warriors of Chaos fantasy flavor of all challenges all the time to Chaos Marines. I see a lot of cool models, and a codex balanced for the edition. Which is *better* for everyone. This is a versatile codex. There is something for everyone. Hopefully the trend continues.

You lost me when you whined about the lack of balance breaking codex creep.

Necrons and GK never asked for this! As a longtime necron player I was nothing but disappointed when 6th hit and suddenly my fun, versatile codex was made THE go to for TFGs the world over.

If you're not totally averse to special characters I think you can do some good infiltration-based lists wih Ahriman and Huron since they both bring the warlord trait for infiltrating D3 units to the table, so you can always count on getting at least one squad of chosen/obliterators/something in a good position.

I'm sad about the price increase for the defiler, at the new price I guess I won't field it (or only really rarely) in games below 2 to 2,5k where I have points to burn. A pity, since I really like the model .

Regarding Fabius Bile I agree, as a HQ he's a bit lackluster, especially his lack of an Invul is bad for him, but I like what he adds to other units, +1 S and fearless is really nice, for example for a big horde of CSM with the Mark of Khorne, besides he is a good way to get 2 fearless units on the table for cheap since he also confers it to his squad, having him sit backfield on an objective with a bunch of cultists or somesuch.

All in all I like the codex, lots of customizability and flexibility in the troops and HQs, I am excited to see what I can get out of it

the_scotsman wrote:
You lost me when you whined about the lack of balance breaking codex creep.

Necrons and GK never asked for this! As a longtime necron player I was nothing but disappointed when 6th hit and suddenly my fun, versatile codex was made THE go to for TFGs the world over.

The problem with such units is that they bring the curve higher for everyone else. Upcoming books have to at least be able to face the power-combos and broken units on equal terms, otherwise you are spending money to run in place. We all know that sadly GW doesn't revise its books for point costs or clashing mechanics, so all we can hope for is that the next release will make what came before less broken.

Being the one balanced guy in a competition of broken stuff is a nerf in itself. Picture yourself entering an MMA competition where the previous two guys who showed up for the pre-fight inspection were carrying baseball bats and bowie knives and got waved in by the judge, and when your turn comes he just pats you on the back and says "Now, aren't you a well-rounded, honest chap. Good luck in there against the stabbings and the blunt force trauma!"

I guess I have to leave my DP's at home now... which is a shame

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I guess I have to leave my DP's at home now... which is a shame

Why? They still exist and are better.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why? They still exist and are better.

Because now a reasonable DP costs the same as the DP with a screening unit of Raptors with dual meltas which is how I ran mine in 5th

The loss of EW and, as far as I can tell, the 3+ save makes it far less survivable, combined with taking injuries when shot at after flying around (I get the impression this is the case - I've not played 6th yet and don't have the CSM codex so will have to double check this when I get it) means my flying fist style prince + guard tactic doesn't really seem like it will work any more.

Combined with other changes in the codex which will require other units in the HQ slot to get the best out of the units I normally run, my dual prince list doesn't seem viable any more.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I guess I have to leave my DP's at home now... which is a shame

Why? They still exist and are better.

Not really. One extra attack and higher Initiative does not make up for the many, many hits they took. A basic prince with armor and wings and the mark you MUSt buy to get crap benefits reaches almost Abaddon's price tag. If you want him to be a psyker or carry a special weapon, you can break 300 points within seconds, and you'll still get very little for your investment.

This was by far the most disappointing post I have ever read.

How dare you GW for ruining my entire list.... Thanks for it all, let me go out and buy an ENTIRE new 3,000 point army to replace ever ounce of tactics I have ever used in 5th ed.

Let the over prices banners not guide the cheap combi weapon termies who never got TH/SS.... even with over-watch never had their time to shine as shooty. Let the over priced 1000 son finally shine as have AP3 on an static rapid fire, then take it away, keeping them as overpriced bodyguards to an overpriced character who will loose the very first challenge he enters.

Thanks for making the best HQ choice into the worst and taking away every ounce of tactics this army had. No more moving people around, no more deep striking, 100% set up on table and walk across the golf coarse. Ah well, I will still sport the cheap Vengeance models, and make the new army horde based..... At least I can field those old medal havocs that were priced like individual tanks...Glad I have 3 Defilers to hold my books together on the shelves.

You missed something that I think is really great in the new codex, super cheap predators. You can kit out a predator with 2 las cannons for a little over 100 points or 3 las cannons for a little over 130 points. I think I'll be using skyfire havocs + cheap predators hiding behind an aegis for my back line.

I need to ask: why cannot the 1000 sons shoot overwatch?

@Adrian Fue Fue

Overreact much?

Some things get better, some things get worse...same as with every WH 40K Codex ever.

More importantly we could tons of exciting and fun options! So CSM are still not top-tier tournament material...watch me not give a hoot.


@ Nllal
1000 Sons have Slow and Purposeful, which prevents them from firing Overwatch. They got a bit better IMO, but they´re still not tournament material...

Made a small edit as I thought DPs could take daeminic steeds, but only Infantry can pick those.

It's only lords and sorcerors. No Dark Apostle or Warpsmiths need apply for daemonic mounts.

No offense, but this seems more like a summary of your opinions on the book rather than a tactica; might be better in general. There's a few rules incorrect in that summary to boot.

That said, at least it was a good read, as well as coherent and well thought out, even if I don't agree with some of what you said. That's a lot more that can be said for some of the other posts here *cough* Adrian Fue Fue *cough* (which from what I've read is based upon him not knowing there was no Daemons in the book, i.e. he hasn't even seen the book yet).

i disagree on a few points. I think defilers are pretty decent for their points. They have a damage output class that the army is lacking, strength 8 ap 3(IMO) It is also one of our longest range guns. Unless they get that 6 on the penetration table the defiler has effectively 6 hull points(5+ invul). It ignores most of the results on the table that you have to worry about. It still has a battle cannon, sure the reaper can only snap fire but it is twin linked. If you buy the scourge it is up to 5 attacks base with the WS reduction for your enemy. I would use it as a solid support unit as long as you had other vehicles in the similar durability/ threat. I am going to try out a list at 1850 with a lascannon pred, a defiler, and a vindicator as well as two rhinos backed up with a plague army. I think the nurgle powers really support vehicles with the potential to neuter assault units(remember the nurgle power doesn't say to a minimum of one) as well as giving vehicles/units the gets hot rule.

One thing I have been toying with is the idea of reserving my vehicles against certain armies/deployments. Most of them have the range to function. That is a nice amount of alpha strike firepower.

I think units that we are discounting now will make for some nasty combos and ideas once everyone gets access to the book.

I mean a unit of nurgle spawn with a lord on bike would just be a crazy number of attacks. Heavy forbid you get the tally up, all of a sudden it is d6 attacks that ignore armor. Use typhus to kill a unit of zombies and away you go.

My biggest gripe is the softening of the DP, losing Eternal warrior hurts bad. It kind of seems that they were just an after thought,
They can take chaos rewards and artefacts but most of those are useless and redundant due to Daemon and MC.


The only reward of any worth is GOM, HOWEVER Imagine A DP with axe of blind fury.

Fun fact: Chosen can field 5 special weapons, plus a Champlain combiweapon. 4 can take specials, and a fifth can take another special or a heavy.
Sure its almost 200pts for 6 guys, but if you live in terminator heavy meta, that's about the most plasma you can spit out in a single squad.
Put a slanesh lord (another combiplas!) on a steed and have them outflank?

Nurgle bikers seem like the craziest thing in the list to me, and if anything matches the power of GK/SW/Necrons, it's them. 26pts for T6 models that can be in the opponents face on turn two, feilding great shooting (twin linked bolters, and two special weapons) and enough cc attacks to whittle down most units after blasting them up (2 attacks base, plus hammer of wrath). 20-30 of them will be a nightmare for anything but splinter-heavy darkeldar (and even then, only for a turn or two until the bikes can get into combat)

Mono-god lists just got a LOT pricier. Just made up a list with full sonics for my Emperor's Children and for 2000 points I'm getting the same as I got in the old codex at 1500 points [plus a Hellturkey but minus a DP which I swapped out for Lucius]. Granted they have Icons of Excess but I feel like I'm getting far less models on the table for the points.

If I can't play a competitive noise marine army then I have no interest in this codex. Will see how it goes this weekend when I take them out for a test drive.

A level 3 telepathy Sorcerer on a bike has a 50% chance of rolling invisbility and giving the bikes 2+ cover on the move. A bike sorcerer with iron arm and MoN would also be quite obnoxiously durable.

The helldrake and flakk missile havocs have fairly equivalent AA shooting, although the helldrake pulls ahead if it can vector strike.

Havocs are now equivalent to lootas in terms of shooting cost effectiveness versus ground targets.

Berserkers are still in trouble, but Huron and Ahriman can at least infiltrate them into position for turn two assaulting.

Of the new Psychic disciplines, I would probably say that only Slanesh is particularly useful.

scimitar wrote:
A level 3 telepathy Sorcerer on a bike has a 50% chance of rolling invisbility and giving the bikes 2+ cover on the move. A bike sorcerer with iron arm and MoN would also be quite obnoxiously durable.

The helldrake and flakk missile havocs have fairly equivalent AA shooting, although the helldrake pulls ahead if it can vector strike.

Havocs are now equivalent to lootas in terms of shooting cost effectiveness versus ground targets.

Berserkers are still in trouble, but Huron and Ahriman can at least infiltrate them into position for turn two assaulting.

Of the new Psychic disciplines, I would probably say that only Slanesh is particularly useful.

Didn't Nurgle get a power that makes the enemie's ranged weapons get hot? that sound like it could be very funny.

Something everybody seems to miss about the DP is it's WS 9 now. That means most units in the game are going to need a 5+/6+ and for him to fail a 3+ (if you gave him armor) just to wound him in CC. That's pretty damn boss. It's Lilith with S/T7 and wings (and less attacks of course).

It's not the same DP as it was before, but it's still a CC monster that can move 24" turn one.

I think this Dex is considerably better the some are giving it credit for. Chaos will fair quite respectably over the next year in the Tournament scene, I'm quite confident in that. They have all the shiney toys as before, most of which got better on a point for point basis, but also have both cheap and small, and large and resilient scoring options now, something they desperately lacked before. If you don't think they have the tools to take out the top armies in the game right now, I'm not sure what to say to you. I don't think the codex is broken in anyway, it's right where it should be. Completely capable of designing a both fluffy and competitive list through a multitude of different directions.


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Oh and Spawn are much better then Sephyr is giving them credit for. Grotesques that move like beasts? I'll take 3x5 please.

ShadarLogoth wrote:


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Oh and Spawn are much better then Sephyr is giving them credit for. Grotesques that move like beasts? I'll take 3x5 please.

Yeah im glad other people see this as well. 180 points for 5 T6 spawn which move like beasts is very sexy

wearelegion wrote:Imagine A DP with axe of blind fury.

Keep imagining, 'cause it's illegal.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Mono-god lists just got a LOT pricier. Just made up a list with full sonics for my Emperor's Children and for 2000 points I'm getting the same as I got in the old codex at 1500 points [plus a Hellturkey but minus a DP which I swapped out for Lucius].

Then your calculations are wrong because they got significantly cheaper. Other things to note is that those points are being made up of other stuff not just the Noise Marines, so this post is misguided.

Also note that making mono-God doesn't force you to kit every unit out with all the weapons and all the icons, that's your choice. So no, mono-God didn't get expensive, your taste in a list did.

As not everybody has the codex yet, a short summary of the mono-god armies would be nice.