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Sit at 25" with a trukk full of boyz and a warboss? Your opponent is brain dead and does nothing? You win? Seems legit to me

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Get a slaanesh sorcerer or DP sorcerer and you can have S6 sonic weapons as the symphony stacks. 10 noise marines begin to clear marine squads out at that point.

30x Str 5 Sonic Blasters kills 4.5 marines, 6.7 when you get 4 models under the blastmaster template. That creates quite the problem imo, you're looking at a 2 - 3 dead GK paladins also. So if you add in another turn of firing. Thats on 3+ saves, it kills around 18 guardsmen tho.

Remember when a terminator squad is rolling 30 2+ saves it is statistcally losing 5 models to wounds. 20 Hits, 15 Wounds, you statistically lose 2.5 ish

Maths is off by like 0.3 in places but if you want to be a maths nazi go for it.

How many points is that (300?)

I'll have trukk of boyz with mega warboss. I sit in 25". You do nothing. I drive my trukk 24". You blow up my trukk and I assault you with only warboss and win. If you deside to move you can't even blow up my trukk.

Except with 6th Ed rules for destroyed vehicles, your unit counts as disembarking after its trukk is "blown up". Since I blew it up in my turn, then you disembarked in my turn, which means you can't charge until AFTER your next turn. Meaning that now your trukk boyz and warboss can mosey about that turn, shoot, etc, but NOT charge. Meaning that they're pretty much fodder for a gunline unit or army. Thanks for the points.

Salacious Greed wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
Get a slaanesh sorcerer or DP sorcerer and you can have S6 sonic weapons as the symphony stacks. 10 noise marines begin to clear marine squads out at that point.

30x Str 5 Sonic Blasters kills 4.5 marines, 6.7 when you get 4 models under the blastmaster template. That creates quite the problem imo, you're looking at a 2 - 3 dead GK paladins also. So if you add in another turn of firing. Thats on 3+ saves, it kills around 18 guardsmen tho.

Remember when a terminator squad is rolling 30 2+ saves it is statistcally losing 5 models to wounds. 20 Hits, 15 Wounds, you statistically lose 2.5 ish

Maths is off by like 0.3 in places but if you want to be a maths nazi go for it.

How many points is that (300?)

I'll have trukk of boyz with mega warboss. I sit in 25". You do nothing. I drive my trukk 24". You blow up my trukk and I assault you with only warboss and win. If you deside to move you can't even blow up my trukk.

Except with 6th Ed rules for destroyed vehicles, your unit counts as disembarking after its trukk is "blown up". Since I blew it up in my turn, then you disembarked in my turn, which means you can't charge until AFTER your next turn. Meaning that now your trukk boyz and warboss can mosey about that turn, shoot, etc, but NOT charge. Meaning that they're pretty much fodder for a gunline unit or army. Thanks for the points.

Trukks are open-topped so they could charge.

Thats a ridiculous tactic. Because your trukk parked 25 inches away is out of range of my obliterators and every other long range gun, blastmaster included.

The squad is around 230 - 260 points for 10 man and i dont know about the sorcerer. The sorcerer seems a bit of a waste but its only there for the buff.

FYI people on warboss cocaine, they strike last (you always give them a PK) and are not very tough. Being an ork player for 2 years i know this, mega armour bosses and other bosses are flimsy. MA is the points sink and lives slightly longer, but normal ones are glass cannons with 3 wounds and a pants save. Normal ones just get completely flopped by manticores.

More importantly why are you putting them in a trukk?

Your imba tactic is easily countered by a winged DP, vector strike the trukk, challenge and rip the warboss to pieces. AP2.

Deffy's battlecannon would be in range >=) Yes sit young orkies and witness pie plates of death

A squad of 10 noise marines all with blasters would easily do more than a battle cannon template! (to orks..)

 illuknisaa wrote:


How many points is that (300?)

I'll have trukk of boyz with mega warboss. I sit in 25". You do nothing. I drive my trukk 24". You blow up my trukk and I assault you with only warboss and win. If you deside to move you can't even blow up my trukk.

Cliffs:
Sits at 25" away with an open topped AV10 vehicle with a high profile target, expects opponent to do nothing at all (like hit it with an obliterator lascannon)


Seems legit dude, you must win a lot of games.




Just kidding, you went full potato. Most noise marines squads at 10 men have a blastmaster which is range 48" str8 Ap3 ignores cover. Good luck on your theory-hammer goals of 2012.

Plague zombies cant purchase marks so that makes them toughness 3 correct?

 Tomb King wrote:
Plague zombies cant purchase marks so that makes them toughness 3 correct?

yes and they are not nurgles followers so they dont benefit from epi

 Exergy wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Plague zombies cant purchase marks so that makes them toughness 3 correct?

yes and they are not nurgles followers so they dont benefit from epi

RAI vs RAW. They can only be taken with a special nurgle lord but they dont follow nurgle lol.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Is the destroyer hive initiative 5 or initiative 1? Typhus speciak ability

It's not RAW vs RAI, it is just what it is. Plague Zombies are regular humans infected by a Nurgle infection; they don't necessarily follow Nurgle or are even evil, they just have no mind of their own. So if you want to use fluff to argue rules, at least do it right.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
It's not RAW vs RAI, it is just what it is. Plague Zombies are regular humans infected by a Nurgle infection; they don't necessarily follow Nurgle or are even evil, they just have no mind of their own. So if you want to use fluff to argue rules, at least do it right.

Wasbt arguing rules was just laughing about how silly tgat concept was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
There are a lot of things mentioning re-rolling spawnhood and dark apotheosis results on the chaos boon table. However in the rulebook it states for anything re-roll you only do it once and accept the 2nd result. This leads me to believe that if you roll dark apotheosis or spawn hood twice in a row that you would be stuck with that result. Am i right or would you keep re-rolling those results?

Example: boon 64

Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Here's to hoping they FAQ that special named characters can't become Spawns & Daemon Princes along with that.

 Boneblade wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Here's to hoping they FAQ that special named characters can't become Spawns & Daemon Princes along with that.

Totally separate issue, and don't hold your breath. If you're that worried about Abby turning into a spawn stick him in a mos unit with Lucius and have Lucius make and accept all the challenges while Abby slaughters the unit.

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Its not breaking codex rules with rulebook rules. It states, re-roll thise results not re-roll all of those results. That is like saying eith something says turn your codex doesn't specify gane turn or player turn so you pick. It states re-roll and by the rule book that means one time if ur a spawn twice ur a spawn. No breaking any rules just abiding by them.

 Tomb King wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Its not breaking codex rules with rulebook rules. It states, re-roll thise results not re-roll all of those results. That is like saying eith something says turn your codex doesn't specify gane turn or player turn so you pick. It states re-roll and by the rule book that means one time if ur a spawn twice ur a spawn. No breaking any rules just abiding by them.

Results plural, meaning there's a possibility. It's nothing like the example you have given. Go play WoC for awhile and you'll understand how Phil Kelly's mind works when it comes to these sorts of things.

 Tomb King wrote:

 schadenfreude wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Codex over rulebook. Something people seem to be missing when they talk about that.

Yep keeping apotheosis or spawn on a re roll would be using a big book rule to break a codex specific rule which is never kosher. Rerolling a reroll on the table because the codex tells you to break a big book rule is 100% raw, but I my personal rai (which is worth about as much as bucket of warm piss) thinks gw will faq a reroll of a reroll to be result 11 to 16 unworthy offerings instead.

Its not breaking codex rules with rulebook rules. It states, re-roll thise results not re-roll all of those results. That is like saying eith something says turn your codex doesn't specify gane turn or player turn so you pick. It states re-roll and by the rule book that means one time if ur a spawn twice ur a spawn. No breaking any rules just abiding by them.

Except the codex specifically forbids keeping a result of spawn/apotheosis under those circumstances, and tells you to reroll the results. The codex says to break normal procedure and ignore the double reroll rule, and the big book says never reroll a reroll. When the 2 contradict codex takes priority. Reroll the reroll over and over and over again until you get a legal result such as 64 three times in a row resulting in 3d3+3 more rolls which will all turn out to be unworthy offering.

Just already seen this come up whethrr its liked or not it is based on interpretation and will need faq'd.

@Tombking

It's not open to interpretation. It's pretty specific. It states "results". Last time I checked results means more than one. Which would mean you keep rolling. RAW is pretty clear on this one.

And since codex trumps rulebook you roll until you don't become a DP or Spawn.

 Hulksmash wrote:
@Tombking

It's not open to interpretation. It's pretty specific. It states "results". Last time I checked results means more than one. Which would mean you keep rolling. RAW is pretty clear on this one.

And since codex trumps rulebook you roll until you don't become a DP or Spawn.

It does say results because it refers to two different boons. Spawnhood and daemon prince. It wouldnt say re-roll spawnhood and dark apotheosis result. It is only plural to refer to two different results requiring a re-roll. (pg. 29 CSM rulebook, boon 64)

Page 5 of rulebook: No dice can be re-rolled twice regardless of the source of the re-roll. It is not trumping the codex in any means its merely stating what a re-roll is. Had the csm codex said something to the effect of re-rolling all spawnhood and dark apotheosis results or even easier just canceled out those results it wouldn't have been an issue. However, as it has been already noticed it is left too open to rule in my favor in a match if I get called on it in a game I will have to yield to it whether my lord becomes a spawn or loses all his gear and becomes a prince. Unless I see clear text or faq otherwise.

@ schadenfreude: No where in the text do I see where it states break the rules for re-rolls.

Let me remind everyone before acquisitions arise. I am not trying to hate on CSM. It was my first ever army and I actually love playing them but I am also avid about not playing anything that could be intrepid two separate ways without a clear faq I will have to rule in my disfavor or simply discuss the matter with an opponent pre-match.

So, I was thinking about Khorne Berserkers vs Basic Marines fulfilling their role, with CC weapons, marks of khorne, etc, as I bought one box of each and am considering strengths, weaknesses, options, etc. Granted I am not aware of previous stats and points costs in the 4th ed book, I am just considering what you get for the points with the codex. Note this is assumed to have a Khorne Lord in the army so they are both Troops.

8 Chaos Space Marines: 150 pts
Replace boltgun with a CC Weapon
Mark of Khorne
Icon of Wrath

8 Khorne Berzerkers: 162 Points
no upgrades

Differences? Both have Rage, Counterattack, and Furious charge, so 4 attacks a model first round at strength 5. for 12 More points, The Berserkers get a free Fearless and Weaponskill 5 upgrade. Both can take Champions with comparable gear. The only difference is the Chaos Marines get to re-roll charge rolls, and the benefit of the Icon for assault resolution. Besides the obvious flexibility of different special/heavy weapons upgrades and extra bolters Chaos Space marines get, At 8 man squads, the models cost only vary by 2 points per model (the bonus to CSM increases if you take a 20 man squad, the Icon becomes a 1ppm upgrade, versus just over 2 ppm).

Still, weaponskill 5 and Fearless for 2-3 ppm extra? That's not a bad bargain at all for the Berserkers. My army will have Khorne Demons backing them up, with A Bloodthirster, Bloodcrushers & Bloodletters filling the gap of killing Meq Infantry, so the Berzerkers may still be a more cost effective option for filling their role. Granted, if I want tactically versatile CSM with Bolters, Melta/Plasma/Heavy weapons, etc, then CSM all the way, but for dedicated hoarde killers, 4 attacks per model in 1st round of combat at w5, s5 is hard to beat.

On another note, Counterattack is a good rule for firing your bolters, as it is almost a form of insurance to keep you opponent away from assaulting you (as you still benefit).

Hate to ask this, because i know among the 11 pages they must have answered this question.

What units do you foresee competitive CSM players using most in the new codex?

Cultists are most competitive now. <.<

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Cultists are most competitive now. <.<

>.> .......

Seriously though, pretty much anything nurgle seems to be the rumored-most-competitive build. Add in a few helldrakes and forgefiends too.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Seriously though, pretty much anything nurgle seems to be the rumored-most-competitive build. Add in a few helldrakes and forgefiends too.

Hmmm nurgle always gets the love IMO i figured for sure it was old he/she/nipplepinchy's reign this codex for sure *shrug* oh well

Basically i was just wanting a kinda "This is expected- this is moderate- this is NEVER going to be use" i read the first few pages and happen to agree with the entries but just wanted the boiled down lists of "yes' and "no"s

YES - Lords, Sorcerers, Special Characters, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Cultists, Bikers, Heldrakes, Havocs.

MAYBE - Warpsmiths, Dark Apostles, Chosen, Terminators, Berserkers, Raptors, Spawn, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends, Obliterators, Predators, Land Raiders, Vindicators.

NO - Daemon Princes, Helbrutes, Thousand Sons, Warp Talons, Defilers, Mutilators.

That's my list for you Wurrzog. I'm sure some people won't agree with it, but that's my opinion from a competitive tournament player's perspective (I'm sure I'll get lynched by Dakka's local 1k Sons fanboys).

Well, I just got my CSM codex through the post and re-costed a couple of lists.

I dropped my 2 winged DP's and took Typhus to make my PM's scoring and added in a Helldrake just for lolz... my 2500 point list went from 2491 to 2423... same number of PM's, same equipment on my units but really lost out now without two hard hitting winged princes. A real drop in mobility

My standard list - 2 winged DP's (now without anything other buffs) with CSM is now 2000 points, which was 1930 has gone up to 1991 and now the DP are much more vulnerable.

Looking forward to my rule book arriving so I can finally start playing 6th