So, the book it mostly out. Having given it a good read, let's study the units and rules in it and leave the fluff and finer details for later.

CSM Codex Roundup

Chaos Space Marines: Our basic MeQ troop. Cheaper than before, but also more bare-bones: Morale took a small hit and gone is the swiss-army-knife combo of bolter, pistol and ccw. However, you can now pay to get those back…and more. So now chaos players have a choice: flood the table with cheap basic marines or juice them up as much as you require. You can have dedicated shooty units to hang back in cover, CC-specialist units meant to charge forward, tough objective sitters…you name it.

Chaos Cultists: These guys are alright. Literally a dime a dozen, they are fun to play around with. You can get a small unit to hang in ruins or a bunker guarding an objective, a huge blob to serve as a meatshield around important stuff (Oblits, Daemon engines). Keep in mind that against gaunts, orks and some IG infantry, they can actually cause some casualties, but don’t think they will even fix a situation alone. They are great for combos, though, such as making your enemy pick overwatch on the human wave of CC attacks from the cultists or the sole Daemon Prince/zerker unit also charging them.
Thousand Sons: There got a bit of Love in the new book, but not quite enough. Price remains really high, and they still cannot fire that sweet AP3 overwatch that we all dreamed about. Their main problem, however is the need to stick to Tzeentch powers, easily the worst in the codex. For every time you luck out and get Doombolt, you will also have to deal with Firestorm and Gift that are situational at best.

Plague Marines: Plagues got a bit pricier, but remain a good package. Sadly there is no way to boost their FNP back to the glorious 4+ it once was. On the plus side, they now have poisoned CCWs. That means that against T4 and lower they will always be re-rolling to wound, making them far more efficient, and make them a threat again MCs, Wraithlords and even C’tan in CC. Their one downside is that being fearless, they cannot go to ground, which would give them an amazing 3+cover save (2+ if the shooter is within 8 inches due to defensive grenades!).

Noise Marines: Much cheaper and more flexible now. Sonic Blasters are still pricey, but now they get Ignores Cover, meaning it can be a decent static horde-killer. It’s still much more efficient to just avoid that and grab a Doom Siren for a cheaper, faster, deadly unit. The free Initiative boost gives the champion a leg up on challenges dealing with MEQs, so a power sword is also a good investment that will have him reaping rewards really fast.

Khorne Berserkers: A bit cheaper, though now they lose an attack after the first turn of CC. The Khornate Chainaxe upgrade makes them into truly vicious killers of any sub-MeQ armor. They already had the spotlight in that regard, but now they can be made more effective against units that had high numbers and an armor save good enough to make them less efficient. This can work against you sometimes; against shooty armies, you want CC to go on another round so your zerkers don’t get shot into oblivion after wiping the enemy out. Also, the champion can now carry a combi-weapon!

Daemon Prince: Gone are the days of fielding two of these guys. Even for games at 2500 points and beyond, you are usually better off fielding Abbie or a really pimped Lord/sorcerer instead. To get a DP at the same level of power from 5th (psyker, winged, 3+ save), you’re already looking at some 230 points! Granted, their statline got an extra attack and higher Initiative, but losing eternal Warrior makes them really vulnerable against IG, Tau and vindicators. So now the DP went from cheap tank to a pricey, delicate tactical weapon that requires finesse to use.

They do not get the benefits of their Chaos god marks, bizarrely enough. So no Counterattack or Rage to Khorne princes, no T6 to Nurgle Princes…it’s pathetic, and the upgrades are mandatory. And at Ld9, he’s a rather lousy pysker.

Obliterators: These actually got better. A tiny bit cheaper, and that frees up points to purchase marks, which makes a lot of difference. Nurgle (to avoid ID from melta and lascannons) and Tzeentch (for a more reliable 4+ invulnerable save) are both solid picks. The addition of the Assault Cannons makes them much better in dealing with hordes at range and light vehicles as well. It’s not possible to shoot the same weapon 2 shooting phases in a row, but that is not a big handicap. If you field 2 units, they can take turns popping vehicles/melting the passengers. The lack of Overwatch and Fearless for them is a bummer, though.

Chaos Havocs: These guys are flexible and affordable. Being the first unit in the game able to take a flakk missile upgrade, they are bound to pop in if you face tons of flyers. Be realistic about what they can do, though: S7 is not that grand against AV11 and even less impressive against AV12. Once you remember that many games will also have Night Fighting making their range pitifully short, they start to seem a bit lackluster, as their extra rules do not help shooty units. Given how crowded the chaos HS is, most people will still take oblits and trust the Helldrake and DP to kill or distract enemy flyers. But they should pop up more in lower-point games.

Mutilators: These are aggressively average. Not a bad price for 2-wound TeQs, but the criminally low max-unit size and low volume of attacks hurts them a lot. They work best as escorts for a really, really killy HQ than punching faces themselves, as 12 attacks are all you can hope to get out of them without a Khorne mark. The sad thing is, 12 power fist attacks is not that much when you aim to kill most competitive CC units out there (they all tend to have a 3++ somewhere), and they lack the volume of attacks to deal with hordes. Also, a fighty, small elite unit with SaP? For shame.

Abaddon: The Warmaster is still expensive, but far more reliable than before. Now you can avoid the risk of his daemon weapon rebelling in order to simply unleash 5-6 S8 attack from the Talon at AP3, meaning that you can wreck regular MeQs without a care. If you feel bold or face 2+ armor, then Drach’nyen come s into play at S5, AP2 and extra attacks. He also makes Chosen troops and radiates Preferred Enemy: Marines in a big bubble.

Huron: Who’s imagine, Huron is actually quite handy now. He no longer has a Power fist, but an AP3, S6 CCW with the Shred and Armourbane rule that is remarkably useful. It can wreck vehicles, toss out a whole lot of wounds at I5, and if he’s facing terminators he can resort to his axe. He retains his heavy flamer, and now the Hamadrya is a random power rolled each turned. Sadly it allows no primaries defaulting, but it may get Divination powers with some luck! His invul save is also improved.

Lucius: Another fun surprise. It only makes sense that top duelist of the 40K universe would take to the challenge mechanic like a duck to water. In a challenge, he replaces his Attacks value with the WS of his enemy. He still carries a regular power sword and rocks the Doom siren, but his lash now adds the shred rule to his attacks, making up for his low strength! He still tosses out S4, AP2 attacks whenever he makes a regular or Invulnerable save.

Typhus: Typhus is a beast now. No longer fearing S8 instant death, a solid psyker, and carrying a Force Weapon that gets re-rolls to wound against most enemies you will ever meet and can deal with 2+ armor. Nurgle powers are also rather solid, meaning you can use psychic powers to thin hordes and then have Typhus engage heavy hitters in CC. Still costs a wallop, but he is fluffier and killier than before. Just be careful with his Destroyer Hive ability, as it hits friendly models as well (even those marked Nurgle!)

Ahriman: Our favorite Powerslave is now the hottest psyker in the game at Mastery 4! Sadly, one of those has to be from the terminally lame Tzeentch power list, but other than that, he’s grand. 3 witchfires per turn means a lot of firepower, but also a lot of risk if you face Eldar or Nids. His foresight now lets you infiltrate d3 Infantry units, which can be a good way to get Oblits or Thousand Sons into good firing positions. Shame he doesn’t have a spell familiar. His staff also acts as S6 in melee, making it easier for him to wound and force-kill enemies, but armor will still be an issue.

Kharn the Betrayer: Everyone’s favorite fire-and-forget tac nuke is back! Now his psy-immunity just became a very strong Deny the Witch which he shares with his squad. He lost one attack, but hits a little harder to make up for it. Still wearing only regular Power Armor and at T4, you can expect him to die to any PF/TH out there, so you better be lucky with your LoS rolls.

Fabius Bile: For once, something less random. Fabius is almost unchanged, but now he simply upgrades a unit of vanilla chaos marines for free with Fearless and +1S. Not bad, but he really seems lackluster compared to the other HQs. Guess his internship with the Haemunculi on Comorragh didn’t turn out that well. Maybe if he was an upgrade character he’d be worth it, but as is, he’s only for fans.

Chaos Lord: Starts out cheap, but also naked. You can buy him tons of stuff, though, so have a build in mind. He can be marked, pick fun arcane artifacts and so on. Important now because he unlocks cult units as troops, which is something you want. He can buy a 4++ save now, though it costs more than a Storm Shield.

Sorcerer: Same as the Lord, but with powers instead of some options and with one less wound, closer to loyalist Librarians. If marked with Tzeentch, it makes 1K Sons troops. Sadly the Tzeentch list is easily the worst of all the disciplines, a kick in the nuts of the god of magic. Why take this guy and not just go full Ahriman? Because he is customizable up the wazoo and can actually get re-rolls on casting powers, which WILL save your bacon if you face Eldar or Nid Shadow in the Warp. Also, he can get a 3++ save.

Chosen: Sadly, these guys no longer infiltrate unless you roll the right Warlord Trait. Now they are just Aspiring Champions with a metric ton of gear they can purchase. Solid, but can get very expensive very fast. Use them as a scalpel to fill tactical gaps in your army (which they can do, other than anti-aircraft fire). Need anti-tank? 4 meltaguns. Dealing with hordes? 4 flamers. Time to teach a Tervigon or Mephiston a lesson? 4 plasmaguns. Loading them with CC stuff is overkill and redundant with other units, though you may want to toss some gear on the champion for challenges.

Dark Apostle: Good for Word Bearer warbands, but not that great unless you have some Boon shenanigans planned. They have very few options, meaning you better need another power armor guy with an AP4 weapon, because you’re not getting anything else. His Leadership bubble is good if you are running lots of basic marines, but he packs no punch. He could really use a Terminator Armor upgrade.

Warpsmith: A bit fun at 4 attacks base with his tentacles and with a built-in selection of special weapons, this guy is durable and may help keep your Land Raider and Daemon Engines going a bit longer. His machine curse is only good against vehicles that fire a LOT, and even then it’s only half a chance to take away a hull point. Use it on Stormravens. Crusader Land Raiders, Monoliths and some LRBT variants. Degrade terrain is very situational and even if you need it, it’ll likely only make the cover save of a Stealthy Shrouded unit a little bit less amazing.

Raptors: Beautiful models, but they get no new utility. Not cheap enough to spam or killy enough to really take on challenges. Fear is a useless ability. And for once, there are better options in the FA slot.

Warp Talons: Nice, but way overpriced. The book has many better ways of killing MeQs than these expensive, fragile daemon hybrids. Who can carry no special weapons for tank-popping and character-sniping and have almost no defense against a bad scatter if Deep-Striking to use their Blind ability. If Deep-Striking them, they can also arrive too soon or too late for their ability to really help break the line in coordination with the arrival of the rest of your offense.

Chaos Bikers: Now, there’s a lot of potential here. These guys got a lot cheaper and have a real T5 now (T6 if marked Nurgle, though that gets expensive). Shame they can’t ever become troops, because Slaanesh bikers at I5, T5 and FNP would be an amazing force to field. As is, they are definitely an attractive escort for a Khorne Lord on a bike or juggernaut, a Nurgle Lord on a bike and so on.

Helldrake: Not bad. Not great, but not bad. Could be a bit cheaper as it is only BS3 and had rather limited weaponry, though. Again, GW apparently really trusts little extra rules that give you a 5+ chance of doing something as a way to increase point costs. Its S7 Vector Strike will not really scare Stormravens and Vendettas, so if you face a lot of those you should need the Hades. If enemy flyers are not an issue, the torrent weapon really shines for killing heavy infantry and has great range combined with the drake’s movement.

Chaos Land Raider: A big letdown. More expensive, same carrying capacity, same weapon options. Daemonic possession makes it eat the expensive troops it was meant to protect, so skip it. Still lacks PotMS or anything similar. They just got lazy here, and I hope this means a WD update soon (it doesn’t). On the bright side, you can now get a dirge caster to keep enemies nearby from firing overwatch. Also, shame that Berserkers or Abaddon cannot take one as a dedicated transport, which would help un-crowd the HS slot.

Chaos Terminators: A bit pricier, but even more flexible now that you have both marks and icons to play around with (with outrageous prices). Weapon options are unchanged, but prices got a bit fiddled with and can get prohibitive for some combos..

Chaos Spawn: A bit cheaper, slightly less useless. Not something really worth purchasing unless you really want to go fluffy, but oddly enough some naked champions might benefit from becoming one in some situations. One could even run a nurgle unit of them for T6, fast tarpitting purposes or to give a squishy sorcerer tons of wounds, but there are better uses for your FA slots.

Chaos Possessed: A bit less random, still hideously overpriced and without a hat to call their own. A 5++ does not really make them that durable. You can get better CC out of a similar point value of zerkers and even properly marked regular chaos marines.

Hellbrutes: Amazing models, and the Crazed rule now makes more sense and is more beneficial. However, they suffer from the lack of a drop pod delivery; that means they are quite easy to shoot down as they make their way to engage the enemy.

Defiler: Actually a lot worse. Still shoots and fights poorly but strongly, but it’s far more expensive now. It gains a 5+ save and a weak regeneration, but at AV12 it’s simply not going to last whenever someone directs any real power at it. Daemonforge once per game doesn’t really help as the Defiler’s main problem has always been hitting stuff, not wounding of penetrating.

Forgefiends: Now that’s some decent dakka. S8 plasma cannons are a real threat, as it means you can ID T4 models wearing terminator armor quite simply. But that’s also a lot of chances to have Gets Hot eat your Hull Points. Also, AV12 on something so big makes it relatively easy to deal with for the enemy. Hades cannons are a safer and useful choice, even if you’ll usually only get 4 hits out of them, and they really benefit from daemonforge due to the high volume of attacks.

Maulerfiends: Sadly even more of a gamble than their forge brothers. TheForgefiend at least can sit behind an aegis line and be a threat, but this guy is running right into melta range to be insta-popped. It’s strong, but like all daemon engines it’s not a very good fighter and has very few attacks. On the bright side, it is very fast, and anything it hits is in for a lot of pain. Just a sad thing that in the case of all daemon engines, the devs really think a 5+ somewhere is a good substitute to actually being tough.

Rhino: As boring as ever. It can fix itself once in a blue moon. Cannot be marked, be made fast of open-topped. You cannot assault out of it even if it is stationary, or if it blew up the turn before because its ghost delays the survivors with its boxiness. Unlike the ghost of a Land Raider which is sleek and agile.

Codex Strengths:

-Troops: Chaos lost the ability to field a whole variety of troops at will, but it can still pick a very powerful mix of scoring units. They just need to be more focused now: no more Kharn leading lots of scoring Plague Marines. That said, now you can pick between numbers and quality and spam the hell out of your favorite cult troop, with cheap cultists filling in gaps.

-Durable shooting: CSM units remain flexible in their selection of special weapons and can be made quite resilient. They cannot be a true gunline just sitting back and firing away, but if you can take good mid-field positions, you can put a lot of hurt into the enemy with Oblits, the Drake, infantry plasma/meltaguns and maybe a plasma forgefiend sitting behind a well-placed Aegis line.

-Powerful CC: We still have nothing like the pure crack of TH/SS terminators, Death Company or Force-weapon-happy GKs, but the level of CC competence across the units is still very comfortable. You can expect Skull and Noise Champions to come out on top of most challenges with other unit sergeants and our HQ’s remain beastly in personal combat. Only now they may becomes Spawns if they win.

-Flexibility: A very big plus. There is a good balance of shooty and fighty across units, and Lords, Sorcerers, troops and infantry can all be configured to your little heart’s content.

The Holes in the Book:
Now let’s take a quick look at what CSM lacks.

-Night Vision: Would really help in making Night Lords warbands, but not a big hit. We have searchlights for emergencies. I just like the idea of Night Lods infantry sneaking in the dark toward IG lines and then pouncing.

-Deep Strike Guidance: A rather glaring oversight since it was in the book before and now it’s all but gone (a single artifact). It also does not work with allied demons, which is just bulls%#t.

-Good elite transports: Our land Raiders have less room than a StormRaven and you can’t assault out of anything else. They really should have thought of an open-topped upgrade for rhinos.

-Finesse: CSM must always make and accept challenges. Nearly all units now have a mandatory champion in there somewhere to make sure you can’t avoid this. Way to really shove your new rule down our throats, devs! This robs lots of CC control from chaos close combat. The enemy can just feed single models to our nightmares and preserve the bulk of their forces, minimizing our charge bonus, Furious Charge and Counter-attack.

-Tactical Rules: Nothing in the codex Infiltrates unless you get it from a random roll. Nothing Scouts either. Lots of Deep Strike, but it is unguided as icons no longer prevent scatter and personal icons are gone. Nothing has Stealth or Shrouded in any meaningful capacity. Nothing to help or integrate Allies. Get your guys, walk forward is the strategic depth of the book.

-Spammable flyers and/or flyer defense: At most you’ll be getting 3 of each, at a premium. That’s enough for ‘balanced’ play, mind you, but will not help against a dedicated Airforce that can throw 6 flyers at you and still have points left for more killy, durable stuff.

-Efficient MCs: Daemon Princes now need to fear bone swords, force weapons, any S10 stuff out there, and they are not that much killier to make up for it. Unless you are desperate for an extra flyer that will nosedive and take a wound whenever it is hit, there are pretty much always better options than to field it. Easily the worst MC in the game in his point range.

-Randomness: Not as bad as it could be, but still there. There is still an awful lot of expensive stuff in the book that is not reliable and can easily hurt you. Daemonic Possession of transports is just asking to lose Abaddon or Typhus to a hungry dice roll. Possessed may still rock or bust based on a roll, same thing for artifacts, the Hamadrya, boons…. We’re still second only to Orks in fear of rolling a 1 at the wrong time. Maybe.

Even the chaos boon table can be bad when it is good, turning your nifty biker Nurgle Lord with tons of cool wargear into a naked Prince that can no longer join his unit of nurgle bikers. And with a lower Toughness, to boot.

Final Opinion: I’m not sure any book could have met the level of expectation and rumors CSM had accumulated. However, taking a cold look at it, it’s a bit flat. Those who said this codx is the 4th edition book with some extra development were right on target. It’s not quite the letdown Tyranids 5th was, but close.

It’s odd how anything potentially 'dangerous' was stripped from this codex. No Lash of Submission. No Overwatch with Inferno bolts or obliterator weapons. Gift of Mutation can’t make Daemon Princes. Daemon Weapons are just artifacts and limited in use, and outrageously costed. There is nothing on the level of Thunderwolves, CCB Overlords, Night Scythes or Vendettas here. Don’t expect to see it top any tournament rankings, but it may have some fun combos in there for casual play.

Just a few quick remarks:

Thosuand Sons: Yes, the Tzeentch powers are rather lame, but getting the Bolt isn´t THAT hard. You do re-roll 5-6 results after all!

Obliterators: They still come with a P-Fist!

Chaos Lord: He is also a rather cheap way to make a unit fearless! Cultist horde, anyone?

Sorcerer: They´re also dirt-cheap, even with additional levels. Love ´em.

Spawn: I think at 36 points with the MoN those are a steal, if you have the slot(s) free. They soak up wounds, can pack quite a punch and a frankly ridiculous with Epidemus shenanigans.

Things I´m really digging right now that I didn´t expect are how cheap Marks come, how awesome Dirge Casters are and how cool all of the special characters are.

Main let-down is the lack of Daemon Weapons available. ;(

I am glad that they converted the Warriors of Chaos fantasy flavor of all challenges all the time to Chaos Marines. I see a lot of cool models, and a codex balanced for the edition. Which is *better* for everyone. This is a versatile codex. There is something for everyone. Hopefully the trend continues.

You lost me when you whined about the lack of balance breaking codex creep.

Necrons and GK never asked for this! As a longtime necron player I was nothing but disappointed when 6th hit and suddenly my fun, versatile codex was made THE go to for TFGs the world over.

If you're not totally averse to special characters I think you can do some good infiltration-based lists wih Ahriman and Huron since they both bring the warlord trait for infiltrating D3 units to the table, so you can always count on getting at least one squad of chosen/obliterators/something in a good position.

I'm sad about the price increase for the defiler, at the new price I guess I won't field it (or only really rarely) in games below 2 to 2,5k where I have points to burn. A pity, since I really like the model .

Regarding Fabius Bile I agree, as a HQ he's a bit lackluster, especially his lack of an Invul is bad for him, but I like what he adds to other units, +1 S and fearless is really nice, for example for a big horde of CSM with the Mark of Khorne, besides he is a good way to get 2 fearless units on the table for cheap since he also confers it to his squad, having him sit backfield on an objective with a bunch of cultists or somesuch.

All in all I like the codex, lots of customizability and flexibility in the troops and HQs, I am excited to see what I can get out of it

the_scotsman wrote:
You lost me when you whined about the lack of balance breaking codex creep.

Necrons and GK never asked for this! As a longtime necron player I was nothing but disappointed when 6th hit and suddenly my fun, versatile codex was made THE go to for TFGs the world over.

The problem with such units is that they bring the curve higher for everyone else. Upcoming books have to at least be able to face the power-combos and broken units on equal terms, otherwise you are spending money to run in place. We all know that sadly GW doesn't revise its books for point costs or clashing mechanics, so all we can hope for is that the next release will make what came before less broken.

Being the one balanced guy in a competition of broken stuff is a nerf in itself. Picture yourself entering an MMA competition where the previous two guys who showed up for the pre-fight inspection were carrying baseball bats and bowie knives and got waved in by the judge, and when your turn comes he just pats you on the back and says "Now, aren't you a well-rounded, honest chap. Good luck in there against the stabbings and the blunt force trauma!"

I guess I have to leave my DP's at home now... which is a shame

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I guess I have to leave my DP's at home now... which is a shame

Why? They still exist and are better.

 DarknessEternal wrote:
Why? They still exist and are better.

Because now a reasonable DP costs the same as the DP with a screening unit of Raptors with dual meltas which is how I ran mine in 5th

The loss of EW and, as far as I can tell, the 3+ save makes it far less survivable, combined with taking injuries when shot at after flying around (I get the impression this is the case - I've not played 6th yet and don't have the CSM codex so will have to double check this when I get it) means my flying fist style prince + guard tactic doesn't really seem like it will work any more.

Combined with other changes in the codex which will require other units in the HQ slot to get the best out of the units I normally run, my dual prince list doesn't seem viable any more.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I guess I have to leave my DP's at home now... which is a shame

Why? They still exist and are better.

Not really. One extra attack and higher Initiative does not make up for the many, many hits they took. A basic prince with armor and wings and the mark you MUSt buy to get crap benefits reaches almost Abaddon's price tag. If you want him to be a psyker or carry a special weapon, you can break 300 points within seconds, and you'll still get very little for your investment.

This was by far the most disappointing post I have ever read.

How dare you GW for ruining my entire list.... Thanks for it all, let me go out and buy an ENTIRE new 3,000 point army to replace ever ounce of tactics I have ever used in 5th ed.

Let the over prices banners not guide the cheap combi weapon termies who never got TH/SS.... even with over-watch never had their time to shine as shooty. Let the over priced 1000 son finally shine as have AP3 on an static rapid fire, then take it away, keeping them as overpriced bodyguards to an overpriced character who will loose the very first challenge he enters.

Thanks for making the best HQ choice into the worst and taking away every ounce of tactics this army had. No more moving people around, no more deep striking, 100% set up on table and walk across the golf coarse. Ah well, I will still sport the cheap Vengeance models, and make the new army horde based..... At least I can field those old medal havocs that were priced like individual tanks...Glad I have 3 Defilers to hold my books together on the shelves.

You missed something that I think is really great in the new codex, super cheap predators. You can kit out a predator with 2 las cannons for a little over 100 points or 3 las cannons for a little over 130 points. I think I'll be using skyfire havocs + cheap predators hiding behind an aegis for my back line.

I need to ask: why cannot the 1000 sons shoot overwatch?

@Adrian Fue Fue

Overreact much?

Some things get better, some things get worse...same as with every WH 40K Codex ever.

More importantly we could tons of exciting and fun options! So CSM are still not top-tier tournament material...watch me not give a hoot.


@ Nllal
1000 Sons have Slow and Purposeful, which prevents them from firing Overwatch. They got a bit better IMO, but they´re still not tournament material...

Made a small edit as I thought DPs could take daeminic steeds, but only Infantry can pick those.

It's only lords and sorcerors. No Dark Apostle or Warpsmiths need apply for daemonic mounts.

No offense, but this seems more like a summary of your opinions on the book rather than a tactica; might be better in general. There's a few rules incorrect in that summary to boot.

That said, at least it was a good read, as well as coherent and well thought out, even if I don't agree with some of what you said. That's a lot more that can be said for some of the other posts here *cough* Adrian Fue Fue *cough* (which from what I've read is based upon him not knowing there was no Daemons in the book, i.e. he hasn't even seen the book yet).

i disagree on a few points. I think defilers are pretty decent for their points. They have a damage output class that the army is lacking, strength 8 ap 3(IMO) It is also one of our longest range guns. Unless they get that 6 on the penetration table the defiler has effectively 6 hull points(5+ invul). It ignores most of the results on the table that you have to worry about. It still has a battle cannon, sure the reaper can only snap fire but it is twin linked. If you buy the scourge it is up to 5 attacks base with the WS reduction for your enemy. I would use it as a solid support unit as long as you had other vehicles in the similar durability/ threat. I am going to try out a list at 1850 with a lascannon pred, a defiler, and a vindicator as well as two rhinos backed up with a plague army. I think the nurgle powers really support vehicles with the potential to neuter assault units(remember the nurgle power doesn't say to a minimum of one) as well as giving vehicles/units the gets hot rule.

One thing I have been toying with is the idea of reserving my vehicles against certain armies/deployments. Most of them have the range to function. That is a nice amount of alpha strike firepower.

I think units that we are discounting now will make for some nasty combos and ideas once everyone gets access to the book.

I mean a unit of nurgle spawn with a lord on bike would just be a crazy number of attacks. Heavy forbid you get the tally up, all of a sudden it is d6 attacks that ignore armor. Use typhus to kill a unit of zombies and away you go.

My biggest gripe is the softening of the DP, losing Eternal warrior hurts bad. It kind of seems that they were just an after thought,
They can take chaos rewards and artefacts but most of those are useless and redundant due to Daemon and MC.


The only reward of any worth is GOM, HOWEVER Imagine A DP with axe of blind fury.

Fun fact: Chosen can field 5 special weapons, plus a Champlain combiweapon. 4 can take specials, and a fifth can take another special or a heavy.
Sure its almost 200pts for 6 guys, but if you live in terminator heavy meta, that's about the most plasma you can spit out in a single squad.
Put a slanesh lord (another combiplas!) on a steed and have them outflank?

Nurgle bikers seem like the craziest thing in the list to me, and if anything matches the power of GK/SW/Necrons, it's them. 26pts for T6 models that can be in the opponents face on turn two, feilding great shooting (twin linked bolters, and two special weapons) and enough cc attacks to whittle down most units after blasting them up (2 attacks base, plus hammer of wrath). 20-30 of them will be a nightmare for anything but splinter-heavy darkeldar (and even then, only for a turn or two until the bikes can get into combat)

Mono-god lists just got a LOT pricier. Just made up a list with full sonics for my Emperor's Children and for 2000 points I'm getting the same as I got in the old codex at 1500 points [plus a Hellturkey but minus a DP which I swapped out for Lucius]. Granted they have Icons of Excess but I feel like I'm getting far less models on the table for the points.

If I can't play a competitive noise marine army then I have no interest in this codex. Will see how it goes this weekend when I take them out for a test drive.

A level 3 telepathy Sorcerer on a bike has a 50% chance of rolling invisbility and giving the bikes 2+ cover on the move. A bike sorcerer with iron arm and MoN would also be quite obnoxiously durable.

The helldrake and flakk missile havocs have fairly equivalent AA shooting, although the helldrake pulls ahead if it can vector strike.

Havocs are now equivalent to lootas in terms of shooting cost effectiveness versus ground targets.

Berserkers are still in trouble, but Huron and Ahriman can at least infiltrate them into position for turn two assaulting.

Of the new Psychic disciplines, I would probably say that only Slanesh is particularly useful.

scimitar wrote:
A level 3 telepathy Sorcerer on a bike has a 50% chance of rolling invisbility and giving the bikes 2+ cover on the move. A bike sorcerer with iron arm and MoN would also be quite obnoxiously durable.

The helldrake and flakk missile havocs have fairly equivalent AA shooting, although the helldrake pulls ahead if it can vector strike.

Havocs are now equivalent to lootas in terms of shooting cost effectiveness versus ground targets.

Berserkers are still in trouble, but Huron and Ahriman can at least infiltrate them into position for turn two assaulting.

Of the new Psychic disciplines, I would probably say that only Slanesh is particularly useful.

Didn't Nurgle get a power that makes the enemie's ranged weapons get hot? that sound like it could be very funny.

Something everybody seems to miss about the DP is it's WS 9 now. That means most units in the game are going to need a 5+/6+ and for him to fail a 3+ (if you gave him armor) just to wound him in CC. That's pretty damn boss. It's Lilith with S/T7 and wings (and less attacks of course).

It's not the same DP as it was before, but it's still a CC monster that can move 24" turn one.

I think this Dex is considerably better the some are giving it credit for. Chaos will fair quite respectably over the next year in the Tournament scene, I'm quite confident in that. They have all the shiney toys as before, most of which got better on a point for point basis, but also have both cheap and small, and large and resilient scoring options now, something they desperately lacked before. If you don't think they have the tools to take out the top armies in the game right now, I'm not sure what to say to you. I don't think the codex is broken in anyway, it's right where it should be. Completely capable of designing a both fluffy and competitive list through a multitude of different directions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Spawn are much better then Sephyr is giving them credit for. Grotesques that move like beasts? I'll take 3x5 please.

ShadarLogoth wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and Spawn are much better then Sephyr is giving them credit for. Grotesques that move like beasts? I'll take 3x5 please.

Yeah im glad other people see this as well. 180 points for 5 T6 spawn which move like beasts is very sexy

wearelegion wrote:Imagine A DP with axe of blind fury.

Keep imagining, 'cause it's illegal.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Mono-god lists just got a LOT pricier. Just made up a list with full sonics for my Emperor's Children and for 2000 points I'm getting the same as I got in the old codex at 1500 points [plus a Hellturkey but minus a DP which I swapped out for Lucius].

Then your calculations are wrong because they got significantly cheaper. Other things to note is that those points are being made up of other stuff not just the Noise Marines, so this post is misguided.

Also note that making mono-God doesn't force you to kit every unit out with all the weapons and all the icons, that's your choice. So no, mono-God didn't get expensive, your taste in a list did.

As not everybody has the codex yet, a short summary of the mono-god armies would be nice.

 wuestenfux wrote:
As not everybody has the codex yet, a short summary of the mono-god armies would be nice.

Define a mono-God army. Essentially any army with only one mark in it is Mono-God, which usually doesn't rule out much, so that summary is pretty much already in the first 3 posts.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
As not everybody has the codex yet, a short summary of the mono-god armies would be nice.

Define a mono-God army. Essentially any army with only one mark in it is Mono-God, which usually doesn't rule out much, so that summary is pretty much already in the first 3 posts.

I particularly mean the cult legions: Khorne, Nurgle, Slannesh, Tzeentch.

GubbinsGob wrote:
I am glad that they converted the Warriors of Chaos fantasy flavor of all challenges all the time to Chaos Marines. I see a lot of cool models, and a codex balanced for the edition. Which is *better* for everyone. This is a versatile codex. There is something for everyone. Hopefully the trend continues.

Agreed, if this is how they are doing things now, Im pretty excited for my next Ork dex!

Ummm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a Daemon Prince a daemon. And doesn't the daemon USR give it a 5+ invuln and eternal warrior?

noise marine army with lucius and a horde of cultists

kungfujew wrote:
Ummm correct me if I'm wrong but isn't a Daemon Prince a daemon. And doesn't the daemon USR give it a 5+ invuln and eternal warrior?

Nope, it's 5+ invuln and Fear. EW is only if it comes from the Daemon codex.

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Something everybody seems to miss about the DP is it's WS 9 now. That means most units in the game are going to need a 5+/6+ and for him to fail a 3+ (if you gave him armor) just to wound him in CC. That's pretty damn boss. It's Lilith with S/T7 and wings (and less attacks of course).

It's not the same DP as it was before, but it's still a CC monster that can move 24" turn one.

WS 9 is a good thing, but not nearly enough to keep him alive if he's facing anything with a decent number of attacks. I've fielded Daemon Princes extensively and even with the old (good) Warptime they had a delicate survival balance; I've lost them to Guardian blobs in CC despite them needing 5's to hit and 6's to wound. And at a T5 that cannot be changed, he is immensely vulnerable to GK CC (and just massed bolter fire in general). Lilith has a much beter save than he does and she stays mostly on the shelf. And unlkie the Prince, she has a unit to hide in.

If anything, they now remind me of the Greater Daemon in the 4th edition codex with extra attack and WS. except the Greater Daemon was cheap, had a better save and Leadership and Eternal Warrior.

Guess GW decided too many people had the model and it was time to sell the Termi Lord kit.

 wearelegion wrote:
My biggest gripe is the softening of the DP, losing Eternal warrior hurts bad. It kind of seems that they were just an after thought,
They can take chaos rewards and artefacts but most of those are useless and redundant due to Daemon and MC.


The only reward of any worth is GOM, HOWEVER Imagine A DP with axe of blind fury.

Except that Daemon Princes can be a Daemon of Khorne, which is not technically a Mark of Khorne, thus they can't take the Axe of Blind Fury.

However - they can take the Black Mace. You know, the uber-killy Daemon Weapon whose only downside is that it is AP4? Except that when a Daemon Prince wield's it, it becomes AP2. Similarly, if they take a combat familiar, who normally offers 2 free attacks at S4, AP-? Those become S4, AP2 when he's working for a Daemon Prince.

Finally, they can get several psyker levels, and while the first one has to be a roll on their god's table, the other(s) can come from Biomancy, which offers some possible answers to Instant Death. And while they are only LD9, they can get a spell familiar for rerolls.

Now, the main problem at this point is that you are looking at over 300 points for the guy, and can still get hosed if you get the wrong psychic powers or run into Eldar, etc. But if everything does go right, you are a stupidly fast model that can wreck just about anything in the game.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
As not everybody has the codex yet, a short summary of the mono-god armies would be nice.

Define a mono-God army. Essentially any army with only one mark in it is Mono-God, which usually doesn't rule out much, so that summary is pretty much already in the first 3 posts.

I particularly mean the cult legions: Khorne, Nurgle, Slannesh, Tzeentch.

The only units specific to an chaos god are the troops from the old codex and the special characters. Pretty much every other unit either has customizable marks or is a vehicle. Making a mono-god list is quite easy and other than tzeentch doesn't even gimp your army that much.

As others have mentioned, I'm also much more impressed with Chaos Spawn than they are given credit for here. Lack of a save still hurts, but a ton of fast moving wounds can be real handy. They do have to combat with bikers in the FA slot, though, and Bikers are now fantastic.

I'm also apparently one of the only ones who is a fan of the Tzeentch psychic list. The Primaris Power is great as a horde-killer, though not of much use elsewhere. I think Doombolt is really strong - especially on something mobile, like a Tzeentch Biker Sorcerer or Tzeentch Daemon Prince. Drawing S8 AP1 beams through the enemy lines is always a good thing. Breath of Chaos remains strong, though being Warp Change 2 seems a bit silly. Boon of Mutation is the only real clunker, and I can still see some use for it in the right armies.

I'm less impressed with Nurgle. The Primaris Power... I'm doing around 2 wounds at AP5 to all units within 6"... and I can't be locked in combat. That's terrible. Giving an enemy unit 'Get's Hot' weaponry... Good against a guard blob squad, I guess, but I can't see much use for it elsewhere. Gift of Contagion... if you drop something's toughness, that's nice. The others really only matter if you will be engaging them in combat. One of them has the potential to help the enemy unit. Meh. Plague Wind is strong, but also Warp Charge 2.

Slaanesh is pretty nice across the board. Nothing too strong, but almost everything is useful one way or another.

Myth wrote:


I'm also apparently one of the only ones who is a fan of the Tzeentch psychic list. The Primaris Power is great as a horde-killer, though not of much use elsewhere.

I'd be a fan of Firestorm (the primaris) if it was a large blast. As a small blast, it'll catch 3 models at the most, is subject to a random Strength that can make it never wound anything, allows saves...too many ways for it to go wrong for something that requires a casting roll, can be shut down by hoods and runes, allows a Deny the witch save AND regular saves.

Doombolt is amazing, though. I don't get how it was not the one requiring 2 charges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Myth wrote:

Except that Daemon Princes can be a Daemon of Khorne, which is not technically a Mark of Khorne, thus they can't take the Axe of Blind Fury.

However - they can take the Black Mace. You know, the uber-killy Daemon Weapon whose only downside is that it is AP4? Except that when a Daemon Prince wield's it, it becomes AP2. Similarly, if they take a combat familiar, who normally offers 2 free attacks at S4, AP-? Those become S4, AP2 when he's working for a Daemon Prince.

This sounds wrong. A weapon's AP does not change based on who wields it...I think. We should fire some questions for GW's FAQ section to make sure, as MC1s now having a choice of CC weapon is a new (old) thing.

The combat familiar, however, I am pretty sure remain AP - no matter who his owner is.

According to the BRB MC's get AP2 regardless of the weapon they are using(via the smash rules)

Bikers have been boosted if I read correctly. As an EC player with 12 CSM Bikes on my shelf, what's the deal with Bikes + Mark/Icon of Slaneesh?

Bikes with mark and icon of Slaanesh will get you I5 + FNP bikes!!!

 wuestenfux wrote:
Bikers have been boosted if I read correctly. As an EC player with 12 CSM Bikes on my shelf, what's the deal with Bikes + Mark/Icon of Slaneesh?

Lets just say 10 T5 FNP bikers w/ 3 plasma guns for ~250 points. A whole lot better than what they were before..

Give them a Lord on a Steed and you will be laughing.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Give them a Lord on a Steed and you will be laughing.

Thats pretty much what I was going to try in 5th ed back when it still sucked, so yeah, I'm pretty happy.

Lost the Blissgiver on the lord, but now he gets the Murder Sword instead.

 Sephyr wrote:

Myth wrote:


I'm also apparently one of the only ones who is a fan of the Tzeentch psychic list. The Primaris Power is great as a horde-killer, though not of much use elsewhere.

I'd be a fan of Firestorm (the primaris) if it was a large blast. As a small blast, it'll catch 3 models at the most, is subject to a random Strength that can make it never wound anything, allows saves...too many ways for it to go wrong for something that requires a casting roll, can be shut down by hoods and runes, allows a Deny the witch save AND regular saves.

Doombolt is amazing, though. I don't get how it was not the one requiring 2 charges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Myth wrote:

Except that Daemon Princes can be a Daemon of Khorne, which is not technically a Mark of Khorne, thus they can't take the Axe of Blind Fury.

However - they can take the Black Mace. You know, the uber-killy Daemon Weapon whose only downside is that it is AP4? Except that when a Daemon Prince wield's it, it becomes AP2. Similarly, if they take a combat familiar, who normally offers 2 free attacks at S4, AP-? Those become S4, AP2 when he's working for a Daemon Prince.

This sounds wrong. A weapon's AP does not change based on who wields it...I think. We should fire some questions for GW's FAQ section to make sure, as MC1s now having a choice of CC weapon is a new (old) thing.

The combat familiar, however, I am pretty sure remain AP - no matter who his owner is.

Under the rules for Smash

All of the close combat aftacks, except
Hammer of Wrath Attacks, of a model
with this special rule are resolved at AP 2
(unless it's attacking with an AP 1 weapon).

So yes GW did plan for MC's having a choice of weapons in 6E.

I'm looking through the codex and I am not sold on spawn at all. I get their boosts but I would be using bikers before spawn. I'm thinking Nurgle bikers and I am not thinking of taking any special weapons. I also think that an HQ joining the squad does not need any mark. There are two choices and both seem pretty decent. An unmarked lord on a bike with clawsand gift or a sorceror on a bike (lvl2 minimum) and maybe sigil. Seems this would be a very good anvil unit. I'm even debating including them with a squad of cultists in my daemon army. They would replace my screamers and a squad of horrors. Adds a nice durable fast attack squad with hammer of wrath to my list. Maybe put some meltabombs on the HQ.

Spawn just have so many wounds. With mark of nurgle I just cant see many units having the number of attacks/strength to get through their wounds. Combined with fearless and the potential number of attacks back. Also rage, rage is really good. All the random abilities are really quite useful for the unit.

Hell they may not be able to claim an objective but they are sure as hell gonna keep it safe.

not bad on the price front either with two per box.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I guess I have to leave my DP's at home now... which is a shame

Never leave them at home. When you aspiring champion ends up killing a nob in a challenge (take that nob!), he rolls the ol' 6 6 and BLAMO, DAEMON PRINCE IN THE CENTER OF THE BOAARDDDD KILLING yOUR GUySSS!!!1!
Maybe not quite like that, but don't leave them at home in case something similar occurs.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
Mono-god lists just got a LOT pricier. Just made up a list with full sonics for my Emperor's Children and for 2000 points I'm getting the same as I got in the old codex at 1500 points [plus a Hellturkey but minus a DP which I swapped out for Lucius].

Then your calculations are wrong because they got significantly cheaper. Other things to note is that those points are being made up of other stuff not just the Noise Marines, so this post is misguided.

Also note that making mono-God doesn't force you to kit every unit out with all the weapons and all the icons, that's your choice. So no, mono-God didn't get expensive, your taste in a list did.

My lash Daemon Prince that used to cost 155 points is now 240. Take two and it's an extra 180 points. Noise Marine units are cheaper but the cost of my defiler has increased by 45 points. True if I don't include icons and marks [isn't that what a mono-god list should have though?] it gets the cost down but it's still about 140 points more to get the same list I had before.

And if I want to take the cool new stuff [like icon of excess] it jacks the Noise Marines back up to where they were before [ok they now have FNP and ignores cover but on the other hand they are gimped by salvo on the blasters].

So no slaanesh lash princes and no slaanesh icons [and no blastmasters because I run units of 6] and I'm good to go with my mono-god list.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Give them a Lord on a Steed and you will be laughing.

Thats pretty much what I was going to try in 5th ed back when it still sucked, so yeah, I'm pretty happy.

Lost the Blissgiver on the lord, but now he gets the Murder Sword instead.

I now have reason to Chaos Lords instead of Princes, that makes me very happy

All's I have to do now is wait for my holiday trip home up North to break out my crudely painted marine horde and figure out how to make them work

(Bikes being cheaper is also a nice thing)

tyrannosaurus wrote:My lash Daemon Prince that used to cost 155 points is now 240. Take two and it's an extra 180 points. Noise Marine units are cheaper but the cost of my defiler has increased by 45 points.

But that's exactly my point; your statement was that mono-God armies got more expensive, and then you went onto say things like the above. Since when are two Daemon Princes and a Defiler a requirement for a mono-Slaanesh army? They aren't. My point simply was that your mono-God list got more expensive because of your choices, not mono-God armies in general.

Ah i overlooked the mark of khorne only, Still a black mace will give d6 more attacks, plus weak splash damage plus ap2 due to smash. I def still like that!

FallenAfh wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

Myth wrote:


I'm also apparently one of the only ones who is a fan of the Tzeentch psychic list. The Primaris Power is great as a horde-killer, though not of much use elsewhere.

I'd be a fan of Firestorm (the primaris) if it was a large blast. As a small blast, it'll catch 3 models at the most, is subject to a random Strength that can make it never wound anything, allows saves...too many ways for it to go wrong for something that requires a casting roll, can be shut down by hoods and runes, allows a Deny the witch save AND regular saves.

Doombolt is amazing, though. I don't get how it was not the one requiring 2 charges.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Myth wrote:

Except that Daemon Princes can be a Daemon of Khorne, which is not technically a Mark of Khorne, thus they can't take the Axe of Blind Fury.

However - they can take the Black Mace. You know, the uber-killy Daemon Weapon whose only downside is that it is AP4? Except that when a Daemon Prince wield's it, it becomes AP2. Similarly, if they take a combat familiar, who normally offers 2 free attacks at S4, AP-? Those become S4, AP2 when he's working for a Daemon Prince.

This sounds wrong. A weapon's AP does not change based on who wields it...I think. We should fire some questions for GW's FAQ section to make sure, as MC1s now having a choice of CC weapon is a new (old) thing.

The combat familiar, however, I am pretty sure remain AP - no matter who his owner is.

Under the rules for Smash

All of the close combat aftacks, except
Hammer of Wrath Attacks, of a model
with this special rule are resolved at AP 2
(unless it's attacking with an AP 1 weapon).

So yes GW did plan for MC's having a choice of weapons in 6E.

I don't see the hate for the Daemon Prince in this edition. Make him a Flyer, fly to where you want shooting stuff and than Glide next turn and assault. Sounds like a damn good unit to me, even at it's price.

 tyrannosaurus wrote:
So no slaanesh lash princes and no slaanesh icons [and no blastmasters because I run units of 6] and I'm good to go with my mono-god list.

You could instead do squads of 12 (or have just one like that). I know it's not the same but still.

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
I don't see the hate for the Daemon Prince in this edition. Make him a Flyer, fly to where you want shooting stuff and than Glide next turn and assault. Sounds like a damn good unit to me, even at it's price.

And what is he going to shoot with? So he assaults, and kills one unit, and then dies. Not really worth it for a near 300pts investment.

Well I was running a Chaos Biker Lord w/ DW, Plague Marines, MoN Bikers and MoN Havocs + Eppy. Welllll now I'm doing the same thing except possibly with Oblits or mixing in Typhus and cultists for an Obj sitter. Papa Nurgle loves this codex and 6th ed I don't think the dex by itself is super powerful like 'crons or GK, but with allies it is a contender and I even think that plenty of smart generals will take tourneys with it.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
I don't see the hate for the Daemon Prince in this edition. Make him a Flyer, fly to where you want shooting stuff and than Glide next turn and assault. Sounds like a damn good unit to me, even at it's price.

And what is he going to shoot with? So he assaults, and kills one unit, and then dies. Not really worth it for a near 300pts investment.

Unless of course the unit he kills is worth more than 300 points, which is entirely possible.

Besides, its not as if he is the only model in your entire army. And its not as if your opponent will have anything effective to shoot him with by then.

I always put my Daemon Prince in reserve, and fly him on from my table edge. Gives me plently of time to kill things that might hurt him, and to put him where he will do the most damage.

Sure he could roll a 1 for his Daemon Weapon and die, but he has the same chance of rolling a 6 and wiping out a whole unit easily. Thats just the nature of Chaos and I like it.

I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

 XT-1984 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Farseer Mael Dannan wrote:
I don't see the hate for the Daemon Prince in this edition. Make him a Flyer, fly to where you want shooting stuff and than Glide next turn and assault. Sounds like a damn good unit to me, even at it's price.

And what is he going to shoot with? So he assaults, and kills one unit, and then dies. Not really worth it for a near 300pts investment.

Unless of course the unit he kills is worth more than 300 points, which is entirely possible.

Besides, its not as if he is the only model in your entire army. And its not as if your opponent will have anything effective to shoot him with by then.

I always put my Daemon Prince in reserve, and fly him on from my table edge. Gives me plently of time to kill things that might hurt him, and to put him where he will do the most damage.

Sure he could roll a 1 for his Daemon Weapon and die, but he has the same chance of rolling a 6 and wiping out a whole unit easily. Thats just the nature of Chaos and I like it.

His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

Um, the fact that he's an FMC with an Invulnerable save will help him against Missles and Lascannons though. And trying to imply he's not great in CC is just laughable. And you do know that MC's are AP 2 right? So if he gets past MSS (which, lets face it, your Necron opponent will only have so many such units to throw around, and as Chaos your going to have a lot more CC on the filed then just your DP), he's going to pound a Lord or Overlord into the dirt, unless they have a Phase Shifter, which is incredibly rare.

A day before the Codex is released and everyone is already coming to conclusions.

Scientist: "I think we should try to split this atom!"

Person: "That's a stupid idea that won't do anything."

Anyway. I can't wait to actually playtest this Codex. It seems flat, and I am too disappointed in the base vehicles, but there are so many options now. So many builds and ways to play the army! Combos and weapons that we haven't ever seen before! It's exciting, and only a lot of playtesting will reveal its weaknesses and strengths.

I have a feeling we'll see MANY tournaments with Chaos Marines placing high.

ShadarLogoth wrote:

His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

Um, the fact that he's an FMC with an Invulnerable save will help him against Missles and Lascannons though. And trying to imply he's not great in CC is just laughable. And you do know that MC's are AP 2 right? So if he gets past MSS (which, lets face it, your Necron opponent will only have so many such units to throw around, and as Chaos your going to have a lot more CC on the filed then just your DP), he's going to pound a Lord or Overlord into the dirt, unless they have a Phase Shifter, which is incredibly rare.

Your faith in 5++ saves is touching, but that and T5 means that lascannons, missiles and autocannons and plasma will make short work of any Daemon Prince that is not in swoop mode. MCs are only AP2 when they use Smash, which really brings their volume of attacks down to almost nothing.

As for the Necron example, it doesn't hold. Necron Lords pretty much always have mindshackle scarabs exactly for this, and the Phase shifter is astoundingly common, not rare at all. In fact, the average 300-points Daemon Prince will lose 9 straight fights out of 10 with the Avatar of Khaine, which costs about half of his price.

Swoop won't save him either. People will just shoot him with flashlights first, bring him down, and then unload the heavy weapons.

300 point boat anchor. No way it sees play in any competitive list. You can ally a greater demon at a discount and have a much more powerful HQ.

 l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

Yeah, it's a good thing that other stronger codices can't take allies.

 Sephyr wrote:
MCs are only AP2 when they use Smash, which really brings their volume of attacks down to almost nothing.

The smash rules state that all attacks except hammer of wrath are sp2, regardless if you're using "smash attacks" or not. So you can have your full attacks at base strength, at ap2.

(Ref. BRB pg 42)

Your faith in 5++ saves is touching, but that and T5 means that lascannons, missiles and autocannons and plasma will make short work of any Daemon Prince that is not in swoop mode. MCs are only AP2 when they use Smash, which really brings their volume of attacks down to almost nothing.

Faith? It has nothing to do with faith, it merely means that 33% more of them will need to be dedicated to shooting it. That's 33% more that are shooting your DP and not you advancing other units. And has already been pointed out, you are incorrect on Smash. All MCs have AP2 all the time, Smash also allows them to halve their attacks at double S.

As for the Necron example, it doesn't hold. Necron Lords pretty much always have mindshackle scarabs exactly for this, and the Phase shifter is astoundingly common, not rare at all. In fact, the average 300-points Daemon Prince will lose 9 straight fights out of 10 with the Avatar of Khaine, which costs about half of his price.

How many Necron Lords do you see in the average Necron list? How many of those have Phase Shifters? If they aren't Nemie or Imo (who get them automatically, and, frankly, would get their fecal matter forcibly compacted by the DP), Phase Shifters are rare on Overlords, and virtually never taken on normal Lords except Royal Court Deathstars. The point remains that 99% of Necron lists won't be able to handle all the CC threats Chaos brings at once, and this is coming from someone who plays an almost completely CC dedicated Imo list.

Kevlar wrote:
His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

If my opponent is wasting his lascannons and missiles on the Daemon Prince thats fine by me. He is only T5, massed bolter / splinter / pulse / gauss fire would do a much better job.

And of course he is vulnrable to MSS, who isn't when the average on 3 D6 is 10 or 11? But he is not Warcythe Bait, how you going to do that? Not with an Overlord surely? You'd better hope he fails that MSS or else he gonna smash you at STR10 with 3+D6 Attacks (or 4+D6 if he charges). And if you were thinking of delcining and doing it with the Lychguard they'll come off even worse.

I plan on always taking Boon of Mutation for my Daemon Prince, giving him the chance to become a LOT more survivable. He could have:
+1 Armour Save (so 2+).
+1 Wound.
+ 1 Toughness.
Eternal Warrior.
Reroll Failed Armour Saves.

If I'm totally honest, I don't think the Daemon Prince will be featuring in any 'perfect' tournament lists, not when you can get a mastery level 3 sorcerer for 110 points. But that won't stop me from taking him for fun.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 XT-1984 wrote:

Kevlar wrote:
His weaponskill won't help vs missiles or lascannons. He also isn't much of a beast in combat. Anything half decent is going to beat him as he only eeks out 2, maybe 3 wounds a turn. He's just warscythe bait, even if he gets past the MSS with his new low leadership.

If my opponent is wasting his lascannons and missiles on the Daemon Prince thats fine by me. He is only T5, massed bolter / splinter / pulse / gauss fire would do a much better job.

And of course he is vulnrable to MSS, who isn't when the average on 3 D6 is 10 or 11? But he is not Warcythe Bait, how you going to do that? Not with an Overlord surely? You'd better hope he fails that MSS or else he gonna smash you at STR10 with 3+D6 Attacks (or 4+D6 if he charges). And if you were thinking of delcining and doing it with the Lychguard they'll come off even worse.

He also does a lot more than 2-3 Wounds a turn with the Black Mace. He has 6+D6 on Charge, Hatred Marines, Fleshbane. And if he causes one Wound everyone within 3" must take a Toughness Test or suffer a Wound. Don't think I have to explain the math on that to prove its a little more than 2-3.

I plan on always taking Boon of Mutation for my Daemon Prince, giving him the chance to become a LOT more survivable. He could have:
+1 Armour Save (so 2+).
+1 Wound.
+ 1 Toughness.
Eternal Warrior.
Reroll Failed Armour Saves.

If I'm totally honest, I don't think the Daemon Prince will be featuring in any 'perfect' tournament lists, not when you can get a mastery level 3 sorcerer for 110 points. But that won't stop me from taking him for fun.

Typhus + 35 unit of zombies + Epi

Destroyer Hive your own unit.

Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

But Noise Marines can take BM's, and I5 Space Marines is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, their basic salvo bolters are going to absolutely shread Kabalite Warriors/Guard/Orcs/etc.

This was an overall good review of the book. The most negative thing I would say about it, would be that it needs an FAQ ASAP.

Hi guys, I am looking to do a full codex review... should I post it on the end of one of these threads or start a new one and should it be in general/articles/tactics

Thanks

Most likely a new one

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Something everybody seems to miss about the DP is it's WS 9 now. That means most units in the game are going to need a 5+/6+ and for him to fail a 3+ (if you gave him armor) just to wound him in CC. That's pretty damn boss. It's Lilith with S/T7 and wings (and less attacks of course).

But he loses Eternal Warrior. Tau players (like me) are laughing when your expensive Daemon gets splattered across the table from a single Railgun shot (after having to evade and crashing into the ground after being hit by Markerlights)

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

ShadarLogoth wrote:
Something everybody seems to miss about the DP is it's WS 9 now. That means most units in the game are going to need a 5+/6+ and for him to fail a 3+ (if you gave him armor) just to wound him in CC. That's pretty damn boss. It's Lilith with S/T7 and wings (and less attacks of course).

But he loses Eternal Warrior. Tau players (like me) are laughing when your expensive Daemon gets splattered across the table from a single Railgun shot (after having to evade and crashing into the ground after being hit by Markerlights)

Right, which is exactly why my new demon prince is my allied blood thirster. Better stats, eternal warrior, and cheaper.

autopilot wrote:
Typhus + 35 unit of zombies + Epi

Destroyer Hive your own unit.

lol why make them zombies? Normal cultists would die faster....

ShadarLogoth wrote:
But Noise Marines can take BM's, and I5 Space Marines is nothing to sneeze at. Plus, their basic salvo bolters are going to absolutely shread Kabalite Warriors/Guard/Orks/etc.

Expensive noise marines are allowed to buy something for more points isn't a good game design.

I haven't had any trouble dealing warriors, guard or orks with basic bolters.

Sure i5 is great but its' kinda pointless when half of you shot miss, half don't wound and only a third is able to penetrate armor. If I had overwatch or assault weapons i5 might be worth something.

LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

 Red Corsair wrote:
LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

Sometimes I feel they do a good job. Sometimes it seems like playtesting is just something they make up they to sound smart. I mean...does Mr. Kelly not understand basic things in life? "To wear this t-shirt you need to wear another t-shirt." I bet he was really into grunge when he grew up.

 illuknisaa wrote:
Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats. However, the reason to take them is that both their sonic blaster and doom siren both ignore cover. That makes them an excellent hard counter to the ridiculous cover saves from invisibility, shrouded and aegis shenanigans that are popular in 6th.

 Niiai wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:
LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

Sometimes I feel they do a good job. Sometimes it seems like playtesting is just something they make up they to sound smart. I mean...does Mr. Kelly not understand basic things in life? "To wear this t-shirt you need to wear another t-shirt." I bet he was really into grunge when he grew up.

Ha ha, kudos to the infinite T-shirt loop

 Red Corsair wrote:
LOL! Axe of blind fury requires MoK....which gives rage.....and the silly axe gives rage.....Seriously!? wtf Phil....

I suspect that it is intended to be used by DPs,except of course they can't use it (currently)

scimitar wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats. However, the reason to take them is that both their sonic blaster and doom siren both ignore cover. That makes them an excellent hard counter to the ridiculous cover saves from invisibility, shrouded and aegis shenanigans that are popular in 6th.

Ha! I wounded 3 of your mahreens and now you can't use your 2+ cover and have to resort to your miserably bad 3+ armor save. Suck on that!

Fear my stereos of DOOOOM!! The ap3 goodiness will melt your mahreens in no time. What? A terminator armoured libby sitting infront of your squad?

 illuknisaa wrote:

scimitar wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats. However, the reason to take them is that both their sonic blaster and doom siren both ignore cover. That makes them an excellent hard counter to the ridiculous cover saves from invisibility, shrouded and aegis shenanigans that are popular in 6th.

Ha! I wounded 3 of your mahreens and now you can't use your 2+ cover and have to resort to your miserably bad 3+ armor save. Suck on that!

Fear my stereos of DOOOOM!! The ap3 goodiness will melt your mahreens in no time. What? A terminator armoured libby sitting infront of your squad?

If you're not skilled enough to get that AP3 template over something that isn't AP2 that sounds like your issue, not the games.

I'm having trouble deciding if I want Hades cannons, All ectoplasm cannons, or the mix for my Forgefiend. Same situation for my Helldrake. I don't know if I want the Baleflamer or Hades. I know it's early, but opinions would be appreciated.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

Yeah, it's a good thing that other stronger codices can't take allies.

Oh I know they do, I've seen the SW/IG lists. These are played by WAAC players. Which IG and SW codices were not designed for 6th edition rules.

Honestly all I'm hearing is more of the same old crying. "Our dex isn't obviously the #1 dex." Seriously? "Daemon Princes such now!!!" Boo hoo! Now all of you named characters are at least playable!! Hell you don't even HAVE to take them to take specific units as troops! Wish I could take a cheap build a bear HQ to get Purifiers instead taking Crowe. Chaos players really need to get over themselves and their 2 yr old mentality.

 l0k1 wrote:

Oh I know they do, I've seen the SW/IG lists. These are played by WAAC players. Which IG and SW codices were not designed for 6th edition rules.

Honestly all I'm hearing is more of the same old crying. "Our dex isn't obviously the #1 dex." Seriously? "Daemon Princes such now!!!" Boo hoo! Now all of you named characters are at least playable!! Hell you don't even HAVE to take them to take specific units as troops! Wish I could take a cheap build a bear HQ to get Purifiers instead taking Crowe. Chaos players really need to get over themselves and their 2 yr old mentality.

Odd how armies not 'designed' for 6th Ed seem to fare so much better in it than those lovingly crafted for the edition.

And GK librarians, Inquisitors and plenty of HQs are quite customizable, mind. I know it's a deep tragedy that the basic GK marine comes with pretty much all the goodies so cheap, but there's always hope someday a new book will come out taking away their ATSKNF, tripling the cost of Dreadknights and making their force weapons collectively AP4. Then GK players can finally hang out with the cool kids!

So, care to tell us whiners why a 200+ Daemon Prince of Khorne should not have Rage/Counterattack like every other Khorne-marked model?

 Sephyr wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

Oh I know they do, I've seen the SW/IG lists. These are played by WAAC players. Which IG and SW codices were not designed for 6th edition rules.

Honestly all I'm hearing is more of the same old crying. "Our dex isn't obviously the #1 dex." Seriously? "Daemon Princes such now!!!" Boo hoo! Now all of you named characters are at least playable!! Hell you don't even HAVE to take them to take specific units as troops! Wish I could take a cheap build a bear HQ to get Purifiers instead taking Crowe. Chaos players really need to get over themselves and their 2 yr old mentality.

Odd how armies not 'designed' for 6th Ed seem to fare so much better in it than those lovingly crafted for the edition.

And GK librarians, Inquisitors and plenty of HQs are quite customizable, mind. I know it's a deep tragedy that the basic GK marine comes with pretty much all the goodies so cheap, but there's always hope someday a new book will come out taking away their ATSKNF, tripling the cost of Dreadknights and making their force weapons collectively AP4. Then GK players can finally hang out with the cool kids!

So, care to tell us whiners why a 200+ Daemon Prince of Khorne should not have Rage/Counterattack like every other Khorne-marked model?

Because the good guys must win.

They sell better

Because the Khorne Demon Weapon (Axe of Blind Fury) confers the Rage special rule?

 Sephyr wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

Oh I know they do, I've seen the SW/IG lists. These are played by WAAC players. Which IG and SW codices were not designed for 6th edition rules.

Honestly all I'm hearing is more of the same old crying. "Our dex isn't obviously the #1 dex." Seriously? "Daemon Princes such now!!!" Boo hoo! Now all of you named characters are at least playable!! Hell you don't even HAVE to take them to take specific units as troops! Wish I could take a cheap build a bear HQ to get Purifiers instead taking Crowe. Chaos players really need to get over themselves and their 2 yr old mentality.

Odd how armies not 'designed' for 6th Ed seem to fare so much better in it than those lovingly crafted for the edition.

And GK librarians, Inquisitors and plenty of HQs are quite customizable, mind. I know it's a deep tragedy that the basic GK marine comes with pretty much all the goodies so cheap, but there's always hope someday a new book will come out taking away their ATSKNF, tripling the cost of Dreadknights and making their force weapons collectively AP4. Then GK players can finally hang out with the cool kids!


So, care to tell us whiners why a 200+ Daemon Prince of Khorne should not have Rage/Counterattack like every other Khorne-marked model?

Did you completely miss my analogy? Since when can a Librarian make Purifers a troop choice? The new lords/sorcerers are far more customizable and flexible, which chaos players always complained about, and also remove the need to take an encumbering named character

5th edition codecies fair better than ones crafted for 6th? Really? As I understand it, Necrons were designed with 6th in mind and are doing amazingly well. As for the new Chaos codex, are you saying that you have played a large number of games using the new rules, thus making you an authority on how good/bad the codex and all of its possible builds? Obviously you haven't played a single game with these rules so don't knock 'em before you try them.

If such a day comes for the GK codex I will play it, I still play the current one despite having 30 Paladins all set up for wound allocation tricks. Lol By cool kids do you mean people who complain about everything? So GW messed with the Daemon Prince? At least now you have options for HQs, before many complained that a Prince was the ONLY option. Does it make sense that your Prince doesn't get those abilities? Perhaps it was for balance. The question is why does it matter to you so much? If the Prince is so horribly over costed to the point of not being useful why whine about abilities he can't have?

To be fair, the new lords and sorcerers only make Cult Marine choices into Troop choices because they all were moved to the Elite section in this edition... so in reality we now HAVE to take a lord or sorcerer with the appropriate mark to make units into troops, that were previously troops under the old codex.

So in a way, Lords/Sorcerers with appropriate marks are now the new "required" HQ, at least if you want to use your Cult Marines as troops (as they were in the previous codex.)

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
To be fair, the new lords and sorcerers only make Cult Marine choices into Troop choices because they all were moved to the Elite section in this edition... so in reality we now HAVE to take a lord or sorcerer with the appropriate mark to make units into troops, that were previously troops under the old codex.

So in a way, Lords/Sorcerers with appropriate marks are now the new "required" HQ, at least if you want to use your Cult Marines as troops (as they were in the previous codex.)

That was last codex, things change, deal.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
To be fair, the new lords and sorcerers only make Cult Marine choices into Troop choices because they all were moved to the Elite section in this edition... so in reality we now HAVE to take a lord or sorcerer with the appropriate mark to make units into troops, that were previously troops under the old codex.

So in a way, Lords/Sorcerers with appropriate marks are now the new "required" HQ, at least if you want to use your Cult Marines as troops (as they were in the previous codex.)

That was last codex, things change, deal.

I was referring to l0k1's idea that Lords/Sorcerers are more flexible, and the new codex makes no HQ a clear choice.

I was merely pointing out that not much has changed from the last codex in that regard... if you play Cult Marines of any type. You still have a necessary HQ you are required to take. The only thing that changed was that the required HQ went from a DP to a Lord/Sorcerer

You are correct fox, but what I was trying to point out is that a Lord/Sorcerer that is very customizable and can be much more appealing than taking Kharn if you don't like named characters. It also maybe cheaper and gives you the possibility of taking a more useful warlord trait if you desire.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:

scimitar wrote:

 illuknisaa wrote:
Noise marines seem completely pointless now. A basic bolter marine is 13 points while a basic noise marine is 17. Both have same stats and gear. Noise marines only have i5 and fearless. Bolter marines are troops can buy i5 for 1 point. Noise marines can buy 2/3 salvo bolter for 3pts

There just seems to little reason to get noise marines. A blob of basic bolter marines can hold mid field with their overwatch bolters and still be cheapish.

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats. However, the reason to take them is that both their sonic blaster and doom siren both ignore cover. That makes them an excellent hard counter to the ridiculous cover saves from invisibility, shrouded and aegis shenanigans that are popular in 6th.

Ha! I wounded 3 of your mahreens and now you can't use your 2+ cover and have to resort to your miserably bad 3+ armor save. Suck on that!

Fear my stereos of DOOOOM!! The ap3 goodiness will melt your mahreens in no time. What? A terminator armoured libby sitting infront of your squad?

If you're not skilled enough to get that AP3 template over something that isn't AP2 that sounds like your issue, not the games.

doesnt matter what you hit. wounds go on the closest model unless it is a barrage weapon


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Because the Khorne Demon Weapon (Axe of Blind Fury) confers the Rage special rule?

yet dont you require MoK to take Axe of Blind Furry?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

IG not being battle brothers really limits IG Chaos options competitively and fluffwise. Something no IoM army need worry about(except GK if memory serves)

For those saying that DP lost eternal warrior.. They have the daemon special rule, so doesn't that give them eternal warrior and a 5++? Same with oblits and mutis.

 l0k1 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

Yeah, it's a good thing that other stronger codices can't take allies.

Oh I know they do, I've seen the SW/IG lists. These are played by WAAC players. Which IG and SW codices were not designed for 6th edition rules.

Honestly all I'm hearing is more of the same old crying. "Our dex isn't obviously the #1 dex." Seriously? "Daemon Princes such now!!!" Boo hoo! Now all of you named characters are at least playable!! Hell you don't even HAVE to take them to take specific units as troops! Wish I could take a cheap build a bear HQ to get Purifiers instead taking Crowe. Chaos players really need to get over themselves and their 2 yr old mentality.

I agree with the mockery of whining, but purifiers are better than the new Noise, Plague, or Rubric marines. Purifiers can fit almost any situation, meaning having 6 of them in troops is nice.

My jury is still out on the new zerkers, I need to see how they play but I imagine purifiers are still better.




In their day(wound allocation), paladins were better than the new Noise, Plague, or Rubric marines as well but I understand they are not what they use to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Garukadon wrote:
For those saying that DP lost eternal warrior.. They have the daemon special rule, so doesn't that give them eternal warrior and a 5++? Same with oblits and mutis.

again and again

The Daemon special rule gives Fear and the 5++.

Fear is made largely useless by ATSSNF.

IMHO Daemon should give fearless AND EW as well, but it doesnt.

Garukadon wrote:
For those saying that DP lost eternal warrior.. They have the daemon special rule, so doesn't that give them eternal warrior and a 5++? Same with oblits and mutis.

No. It doesn't.

Just a thought to throw out to the think tank, but its worth mentioning. Since this codex is very heavy on the idea of challenges, perhaps this is its greatest strength. With being able to grant boons at the start of the game, thus making you champions possibly better in challenges, you stand a better chance of winning, and if memory serves, you can even sweeping advance from a challenge.

 l0k1 wrote:
You are correct fox, but what I was trying to point out is that a Lord/Sorcerer that is very customizable and can be much more appealing than taking Kharn if you don't like named characters. It also maybe cheaper and gives you the possibility of taking a more useful warlord trait if you desire.

not having combat upgrades or 3 wounds on the sorc really limits them for me.

The lord on the other hand I agree with.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l0k1 wrote:
Just a thought to throw out to the think tank, but its worth mentioning. Since this codex is very heavy on the idea of challenges, perhaps this is its greatest strength. With being able to grant boons at the start of the game, thus making you champions possibly better in challenges, you stand a better chance of winning, and if memory serves, you can even sweeping advance from a challenge.

randomness !good. Having to always accept challenges is a huge weakness, especilly for chaos HQs that rarely stand up to IoM counterparts. For upgrade characters, I think the boons are nice, but even nasty tooled chaos upgrade characters are only going to be 60-70% to take on a IoM upgrade character. And with 1-2 rolls on the boon table, they still will never challenge an HQ.

 Exergy wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

Yeah, it's a good thing that other stronger codices can't take allies.

Oh I know they do, I've seen the SW/IG lists. These are played by WAAC players. Which IG and SW codices were not designed for 6th edition rules.

Honestly all I'm hearing is more of the same old crying. "Our dex isn't obviously the #1 dex." Seriously? "Daemon Princes such now!!!" Boo hoo! Now all of you named characters are at least playable!! Hell you don't even HAVE to take them to take specific units as troops! Wish I could take a cheap build a bear HQ to get Purifiers instead taking Crowe. Chaos players really need to get over themselves and their 2 yr old mentality.

I agree with the mockery of whining, but purifiers are better than the new Noise, Plague, or Rubric marines. Purifiers can fit almost any situation, meaning having 6 of them in troops is nice.

My jury is still out on the new zerkers, I need to see how they play but I imagine purifiers are still better.




In their day(wound allocation), paladins were better than the new Noise, Plague, or Rubric marines as well but I understand they are not what they use to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Garukadon wrote:
For those saying that DP lost eternal warrior.. They have the daemon special rule, so doesn't that give them eternal warrior and a 5++? Same with oblits and mutis.

again and again

The Daemon special rule gives Fear and the 5++.

Fear is made largely useless by ATSSNF.

IMHO Daemon should give fearless AND EW as well, but it doesnt.

Purifiers are very good, and they can be made to fit any situation, but their problem is in the points cost and the fact that they die like normal marines. 6 troops of Purifers in a standard list are only 5 man units. 2 with Psycannons(no NFW), 2 Halberd, and 1 Hammer. For those 6 units in Rhinos, and Crowe that adds up to 1284pts if I recall. 5 man units die fast, rhinos are fragile, and your warlord is paper thin, and an easy victory point.

Noise, Plague, and Rubric Marines have specific roles and obviously if they aren't in that role they struggle. I agree with you on zerkers. I think its better to just use standard marines with mok and an icon, but we'll see.

Chosen seem to be the swiss army knife unit of this codex. They can be easily fit with a vast array of special weapons to handle any situation and can take lots of them. With Abbaddon making them troops I'm surprised more people aren't excited about them.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
I think people need to realize this codex is meant to take advantage of all aspects of 6th edition, which includes allies. Many have already considered daemon allies for the abuse of the tally master, but what about IG for long range fire? A mix of IG and Khorne could be very strong. Perhaps Necrons for anti vehicle?

Yeah, it's a good thing that other stronger codices can't take allies.

yeah, it is a good thing they made it so nids cant take allies to tone down a way OP codex...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l0k1 wrote:

 Exergy wrote:


I agree with the mockery of whining, but purifiers are better than the new Noise, Plague, or Rubric marines. Purifiers can fit almost any situation, meaning having 6 of them in troops is nice.

My jury is still out on the new zerkers, I need to see how they play but I imagine purifiers are still better.

In their day(wound allocation), paladins were better than the new Noise, Plague, or Rubric marines as well but I understand they are not what they use to be.

Purifiers are very good, and they can be made to fit any situation, but their problem is in the points cost and the fact that they die like normal marines. 6 troops of Purifers in a standard list are only 5 man units. 2 with Psycannons(no NFW), 2 Halberd, and 1 Hammer. For those 6 units in Rhinos, and Crowe that adds up to 1284pts if I recall. 5 man units die fast, rhinos are fragile, and your warlord is paper thin, and an easy victory point.

Noise, Plague, and Rubric Marines have specific roles and obviously if they aren't in that role they struggle. I agree with you on zerkers. I think its better to just use standard marines with mok and an icon, but we'll see.

Chosen seem to be the swiss army knife unit of this codex. They can be easily fit with a vast array of special weapons to handle any situation and can take lots of them. With Abbaddon making them troops I'm surprised more people aren't excited about them.

Noise Marines and Zerkers also die just as easily as normal marines, rubrics die just as easily to non AP3 or better attacks.
The fact that the cult troops are all so specialized means that taking them as troops is less of a bonus.

Chosen being troops is awesome, but then abby is a very expensive special character, not a generic cheap HQ.

thus;
chosen / abby ~= to purifiers /crowe ~= palidans / Draigo

abby>crowe but chosen < purifiers



cult troops / lordsorc ~= to wracks / haemoculus. They really shouldnt be in elites so they have an easy way to become troops.

 Exergy wrote:

doesnt matter what you hit. wounds go on the closest model unless it is a barrage weapon.

So why did you let your opponent maneuver into a position where that is the closest model and why haven't you moved your models so that when you fire his clever movement is foiled? The argument boils down to, tactics are hard, this flamer should be AP2 so I don't need to think to make it work.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Because the Khorne Demon Weapon (Axe of Blind Fury) confers the Rage special rule?

As has been pointed out here, Daemon Princes cannot get any wargear that requires marks because they cannot get marks. They are "daemons of Khorne" or "Daemons of Nurgle", and get no bonus from marks but entirely different abilities, at least if you go by RAW.

Here's hoping a FAQ/Errata will clear things soon and maybe bring some fixes.

In case no one has mentioned, Obliterators still have a power fist each.

i love the new codex! for one more point more then last codex we can get t5 oblitz no more instant splatters by melta and such 9 oblit nurgle marked list march forth!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
plus we do still get fists like jackster said = victory that plus assault cannons now!

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
i love the new codex! for one more point more then last codex we can get t5 oblitz no more instant splatters by melta and such 9 oblit nurgle marked list march forth!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
plus we do still get fists like jackster said = victory that plus assault cannons now!

No they just run away like little girls if they take a wound in close combat. 225 points gone in one sweeping advance. Yay.

vets of the long war? + a couple points now they ld 9 and and can kill some marines for fun

the reason why the defiler is so expensive: GW has those 2 other daemon engines that do the same thing as a "specialized" defiler that they need to sell

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
vets of the long war? + a couple points now they ld 9 and and can kill some marines for fun

Do obliterators have that option. It certainly would help but they really should be fearless.

It has 4 hull points (the rest has 3) daemon and it will not die, but AV12 still lets it down.
Kinda wish they brought the +1 armor upgrade back.
It does have the big template the other 2 dont get.

Chaos Marines costing as much as a scout makes them good for spaming.

Chosens are incredible as troops with 5 specials weapon slots (or 4 plus 1 heavy weapon) in addition to the Champion's choice of weapons plus marks and stuff. They can also hide their power weapons.
Abaddy can easily beat most special character around his point range.

Obliterators do have the option of Veteran of Long war. But really, just keep them from CC.

Kevlar wrote:

 Overlord Zerrtin wrote:
vets of the long war? + a couple points now they ld 9 and and can kill some marines for fun

Do obliterators have that option. It certainly would help but they really should be fearless.

yep have the codex with me they can take vets of the long war whats the rule for deamon do does that give them fearless cuz they have that too

Abbadon the only one with eternal warrior. Not even daemon princes get eternal warrior.

oblits will need vet of the long war so they dont fail morale.

 Tomb King wrote:
Abbadon the only one with eternal warrior. Not even daemon princes get eternal warrior.

well.... they didnt have it before 4th.

I have to say I am very disappointed from reading this. Not with the codex but with most of the people posting here.

Boo Whoo your 5th ed army can't be used the same way. Well it's a new edition and if you've played since 3rd the only new thing you need to buy are larger bases for your termies, maybe a oval base for your bikers, and a heldrake?

Bikes are gods because they are CHEAP. Chaos lords are insane. Daemon Price... costs a little much but if you actually use some tactics it should be fine. Either CC with the black mace... run in, challenge and kill any character (disregarding crons, or just don't end up in b2b with the lord), and then at the end of the phase, about 1/3 of the remaining models just die randomly. Other option is the burning brand to effectively get another -2 strength bale flamer, attached to a tank hunter.

Sonic marines got better, no they can't charge but they get more shots without cover saves... so their role changed but they are more survivable and get more shots.

1k sons, pretty much the same but 12 points cheaper for the base unit. Why are you complaining unless you were hoping that they were even better. If you played this in 5th, this still works.

Plauge Marines... reroll hits and wounds in CC when fighting SM armies... Ok, even more a of a reason not to charge them.

Zerkers, i'll give you that one but take a closer look at chosen for MEQ.

Soul Blaze?? effective at all?? idk...

Dirge Caster,,, so your saying now i unload. then move 6, ram with my destryer blades rhino and then charge... you can't overwatch now and you get d6 s5 hits...

Forget flakk, Heldrake better and cheaper.

Sigil of WHATTT finally a 2+3++ for soc or lord. (Slaanesh can also get FNP) 2+4++5++?? hmm

Palanquin of Nurgle... 5 wound lord...T5 lord...

I can go on but i'll just leave it at this.

I had a 2k list for today. enemy brought Space Wolves but only had a 1k list. I just took out half my points and played. I lost 14 models (10 of which were cultists) He lost 1k points... by turn 4... This was using no new models. Lord ended the game with 4 wounds and only full unit i lost was the cultists.

BIGGIST ISSUE WITH THE CODEX BESIDES THE DAEMON PRICE NOT HAVING CHAMPION OF CHAOS IS THAT THERE ARE TOO MANY GOOD CHOICES, a few HORRIBLE ones but a ton of good ones to leaving no room for allies or fortifications outside of fluff/cheese reasons.

scimitar wrote:

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats.

Which makes Noise Marines better.

 DarknessEternal wrote:

scimitar wrote:

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats.

Which makes Noise Marines better.

because they are fearless and have access to special weapons?

 Jackster wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Abbadon the only one with eternal warrior. Not even daemon princes get eternal warrior.

well.... they didnt have it before 4th.

Yes they did, it was called daemonic rune.

lmao 74 usd for heldrake. Wont be fielding those for a while.

 Canadian 5th wrote:


If you're not skilled enough to get that AP3 template over something that isn't AP2 that sounds like your issue, not the games.

I have a trukk spam list that has 1 2+ armor save boss. He and his unit is pretty much immortal. My opponent only needs to have his juicy unit protected by a cheap hq.

Regardless what I've said a single ap 3 heavy flamer isn't worth 100+ points (unit cost+siren cost).

Hey man thanks for posting this review…
While some say “Should be here - should be there…its and Opinion blablabla” it does contain your ideas /opinions for certain units and best builds and that Validates it being in tactics not general.

A lot of people wouldn’t have taken time to do that so thanks Sephyr it gave me some insight before buying the Codex…
Let me ask… can Chosen upgrade to combi bolters? Not the twin bolters but melta-flamer-plasma- combis unit wide? They can be marked right?
Is there an Ammo upgrade for chosen?...

Kevlar wrote:

 Jackster wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Abbadon the only one with eternal warrior. Not even daemon princes get eternal warrior.

well.... they didnt have it before 4th.

Yes they did, it was called daemonic rune.

Yea, well, didnt come with it and nobody took it cause it was insanely expensive anyway (There wasnt as many things that can ID the DP, and some force weapons make you lose the remaining wounds instead of instant death you). And it wasnt called Eternal Warrior back then.


Aw, the nostalgia!

Hashulaman wrote:
I'm having trouble deciding if I want Hades cannons, All ectoplasm cannons, or the mix for my Forgefiend. Same situation for my Helldrake. I don't know if I want the Baleflamer or Hades. I know it's early, but opinions would be appreciated.

I think baleflamer is the only choice for the drake. S6 Ap3 flamer with soul blaze & torrent attached to a flyer is going to be very effective for getting rid of long fangs/lootas/other backfield campers, you're wounding most infantry on a 2+ & denying everything except TEQ a save. AND you can shoot it in the same turn you do a meteoric strike, and you can do it to a seperate target from the meteoric strike.

The autocannon seems like an ideal anti flyer thing, but it only gets 4 shots. Seems a bit of a risk relying on that to take out a flyer. The meteoric strike is S7, but unfortunately you're hitting a vehicles side armour, so valks/vendettas & stormravens have nothing to fear.

I think the Heldrake is actually less suited to being a dedicated anti flyer unit & more for swooping past & popping transports, before flaming backfield units. Id use havocs with flakk missiles as anti air.

lmao 74 usd for heldrake. Wont be fielding those for a while.

*gasp!* That's almost Australian pricing! Joooooooooin ussssssss....


In all seriousness though...I have no tactics to suggest or opinions to voice, except to say that Havocs seem to be really cheap way of getting a bunch of plasma gun armed lunatics on the field, an easier method than using Chosen anyway.

 FoxPhoenix135 wrote:
Because the Khorne Demon Weapon (Axe of Blind Fury) confers the Rage special rule?

The Axe of Blind Fury can only be taken by models with the Mark of khorne. The Daemon prince cannot take Mark of Khorne.

Some of my thoughts on the new CSM codex:

Its seems to me that all of the Chaos subfactions got some love,
-All 4 cults can have a choice of character or generic HQ with cult troops
-Word Bearers got a Dark apostle, I sort of wish they had a character and the DA was made an elite(like a Sang Preist) for them. And that DA cultists could ritual up to tervigon in daemons per turn.
-Alpha Legion, Also glad they get cultist love... I think they can obey fluff very well in thsi codex
-Black Legion, Abbadon making Chosen troops just screams versatility... no doubts this will be a interesting list.
-Red Corsairs. Huron got better... also clearly an option with the better infiltrating troops options.
This is where it kinda falls apart
-Iron Warriors... don't get me wrong, I like the warp smith... but the daemon engines do not scream iron warriors to me. Thankfully traitor IG is there to fill in the gaps for the seige addicted. Personally I dont think that IW have to big of a hurdle to cross.
-Night lords... This is my personal gripe with the whole codex; No night vision, no stealth, no characters, no FOC manipulation with fast attack options... what would I give to see a Warp Talon/Chaos bike HQ, that unlocks bike squads and basic raptors as troops, thus leaving the FA slots open for a heldrake and a pair of warp talon squads. heck I would even give up elite or heavy slots to have a change like this.

anywho just my 2cents

 edweird wrote:
Some of my thoughts on the new CSM codex:

Its seems to me that all of the Chaos subfactions got some love,
-All 4 cults can have a choice of character or generic HQ with cult troops
-Word Bearers got a Dark apostle, I sort of wish they had a character and the DA was made an elite(like a Sang Preist) for them. And that DA cultists could ritual up to tervigon in daemons per turn.
-Alpha Legion, Also glad they get cultist love... I think they can obey fluff very well in thsi codex
-Black Legion, Abbadon making Chosen troops just screams versatility... no doubts this will be a interesting list.
-Red Corsairs. Huron got better... also clearly an option with the better infiltrating troops options.
This is where it kinda falls apart
-Iron Warriors... don't get me wrong, I like the warp smith... but the daemon engines do not scream iron warriors to me. Thankfully traitor IG is there to fill in the gaps for the seige addicted. Personally I dont think that IW have to big of a hurdle to cross.
-Night lords... This is my personal gripe with the whole codex; No night vision, no stealth, no characters, no FOC manipulation with fast attack options... what would I give to see a Warp Talon/Chaos bike HQ, that unlocks bike squads and basic raptors as troops, thus leaving the FA slots open for a heldrake and a pair of warp talon squads. heck I would even give up elite or heavy slots to have a change like this.

anywho just my 2cents

This basically, IMO It would have been cool to have a night lord or an alpha legion hq..

 Tunach wrote:

 edweird wrote:
Some of my thoughts on the new CSM codex:

IThis is where it kinda falls apart
-Iron Warriors... don't get me wrong, I like the warp smith... but the daemon engines do not scream iron warriors to me. Thankfully traitor IG is there to fill in the gaps for the seige addicted. Personally I dont think that IW have to big of a hurdle to cross.
-Night lords... This is my personal gripe with the whole codex; No night vision, no stealth, no characters, no FOC manipulation with fast attack options... what would I give to see a Warp Talon/Chaos bike HQ, that unlocks bike squads and basic raptors as troops, thus leaving the FA slots open for a heldrake and a pair of warp talon squads. heck I would even give up elite or heavy slots to have a change like this.

anywho just my 2cents

This basically, IMO It would have been cool to have a night lord or an alpha legion hq..

Again this.......I am annoyed that something like this did not appear - wasted opportunity as far as I am concerned.

Also - I like the chosen options - but I hate abbadon and therefore another wasted opportunity for what could have been a worthwhile list build - havocs / chosen / sorcerer / warpsmith - the fact I have to take that turd in terminator armour makes me think meh

Oh well, we should have a new CSM codex by 2016 lets hope it can only get better

 Tomb King wrote:
lmao 74 usd for heldrake. Wont be fielding those for a while.

The Cdn retail price of the Heldrake is more expensive than buying the Hell Talon from Forgeworld which is ridiculous.

My biggest issue with the codex is GW charging $60 for it and giving the legions less than a 1/4 page of fluff each. I think that's a crime. Throwing another 10 pages of fluff/pictures wouldn't have made much difference to their bottom line.

Rules wise I am pretty happy with the book. Looks like the Nurgle folks should probably be the happiest, marked Obliterators and bikes is fun, plus Typhus and his zombies hordes is pretty awesome.

 somecallmeJack wrote:

Hashulaman wrote:
I'm having trouble deciding if I want Hades cannons, All ectoplasm cannons, or the mix for my Forgefiend. Same situation for my Helldrake. I don't know if I want the Baleflamer or Hades. I know it's early, but opinions would be appreciated.

I think baleflamer is the only choice for the drake. S6 Ap3 flamer with soul blaze & torrent attached to a flyer is going to be very effective for getting rid of long fangs/lootas/other backfield campers, you're wounding most infantry on a 2+ & denying everything except TEQ a save. AND you can shoot it in the same turn you do a meteoric strike, and you can do it to a seperate target from the meteoric strike.

The autocannon seems like an ideal anti flyer thing, but it only gets 4 shots. Seems a bit of a risk relying on that to take out a flyer. The meteoric strike is S7, but unfortunately you're hitting a vehicles side armour, so valks/vendettas & stormravens have nothing to fear.

I think the Heldrake is actually less suited to being a dedicated anti flyer unit & more for swooping past & popping transports, before flaming backfield units. Id use havocs with flakk missiles as anti air.

It is nice any infantry but for its cost it really isnt that impressive.

Havocs with flakk arent going to take down vendettas or storm ravens either as again str 7 is kinda low for av12

 wuestenfux wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

scimitar wrote:

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats.

Which makes Noise Marines better.

because they are fearless and have access to special weapons?

Because:
a. They can't snipe the icon and nerf your fearless
b. You are not wasting your icon slot so can take something else.
c. Convenience


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 5deadly wrote:
Hey man thanks for posting this review…
While some say “Should be here - should be there…its and Opinion blablabla” it does contain your ideas /opinions for certain units and best builds and that Validates it being in tactics not general.

A lot of people wouldn’t have taken time to do that so thanks Sephyr it gave me some insight before buying the Codex…
Let me ask… can Chosen upgrade to combi bolters? Not the twin bolters but melta-flamer-plasma- combis unit wide? They can be marked right?
Is there an Ammo upgrade for chosen?...

No, they are not stern guard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Exergy wrote:

 somecallmeJack wrote:

Hashulaman wrote:
I'm having trouble deciding if I want Hades cannons, All ectoplasm cannons, or the mix for my Forgefiend. Same situation for my Helldrake. I don't know if I want the Baleflamer or Hades. I know it's early, but opinions would be appreciated.

I think baleflamer is the only choice for the drake. S6 Ap3 flamer with soul blaze & torrent attached to a flyer is going to be very effective for getting rid of long fangs/lootas/other backfield campers, you're wounding most infantry on a 2+ & denying everything except TEQ a save. AND you can shoot it in the same turn you do a meteoric strike, and you can do it to a seperate target from the meteoric strike.

The autocannon seems like an ideal anti flyer thing, but it only gets 4 shots. Seems a bit of a risk relying on that to take out a flyer. The meteoric strike is S7, but unfortunately you're hitting a vehicles side armour, so valks/vendettas & stormravens have nothing to fear.

I think the Heldrake is actually less suited to being a dedicated anti flyer unit & more for swooping past & popping transports, before flaming backfield units. Id use havocs with flakk missiles as anti air.

It is nice any infantry but for its cost it really isnt that impressive.

Havocs with flakk arent going to take down vendettas or storm ravens either as again str 7 is kinda low for av12

Exactly, 25 points per missile launcher and they are only S7 and lack intercept so they are garbage IMO. I am just going to field the dirt cheap 4 autocanon unit I have been. 115 for 8 S7 shots as apposed to 175!!! I have run the scenarios against AV11 already, 3 five man flakk squads is 525, 3 night scythes WITH their 5 man warrior units clocks in at 495!!! They enter play and kill half the havocs and lose nothing in return, it's pathetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone else noticed the glaring inconsistencies in this book also. WHY THE FETH are lightning claws +30 points for chosen!! that's literally insanity. They were 20 a pair before, now you pay the cost of a terminator just for claws! We gained a buff in bikes and spawns which I love but I am finding horrible issues with almost every other infantry category. A missile launcher with flakk rounds is +25!!! The enormous nerf to demon weapons!!! Can someone explain to me how lucious is 5 more points then Kharne lmao... Lucious still sucks, he gets better when he fights things he is destined to lose to and runs the risk of losing challenges where he should be guaranteed victory.

I don't want to appear overly negative, I just don't understand why it is so hard for Phil Kelley to write a book with pounds of internal imbalance from unit to unit. Seriously just look at the cost of certain items from unit to unit, it's laughably silly.

If units have different capabilities shouldn't things cost a different amount?

 Leth wrote:
If units have different capabilities shouldn't things cost a different amount?

Obviously, which was not my point. The cost increase should be built into the model based on his capabilities, not his gear. You can't seriously tell me +30 points is a reasonable adjustment when warp talons cost that and come with a jump pack, demon, blind, those same claws lol. Hmmm. let me think, claws or a terminator? Claws, or a chaos spawn? Claws or 3 melta guns in the same unit!!!

 Red Corsair wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

 DarknessEternal wrote:

scimitar wrote:

Noise marines have equivalent cost to regular CSM with MoS and an icon of vengeance for the same stats.

Which makes Noise Marines better.

because they are fearless and have access to special weapons?

Because:
a. They can't snipe the icon and nerf your fearless
b. You are not wasting your icon slot so can take something else.
c. Convenience

Noise cannot take regular special weapons or heavies. Sometimes you want a meltagun, not a blastmaster.


Still I think noise marines are good, better than they have been in a while.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 somecallmeJack wrote:

Hashulaman wrote:
I'm having trouble deciding if I want Hades cannons, All ectoplasm cannons, or the mix for my Forgefiend. Same situation for my Helldrake. I don't know if I want the Baleflamer or Hades. I know it's early, but opinions would be appreciated.

I think baleflamer is the only choice for the drake. S6 Ap3 flamer with soul blaze & torrent attached to a flyer is going to be very effective for getting rid of long fangs/lootas/other backfield campers, you're wounding most infantry on a 2+ & denying everything except TEQ a save. AND you can shoot it in the same turn you do a meteoric strike, and you can do it to a seperate target from the meteoric strike.

The autocannon seems like an ideal anti flyer thing, but it only gets 4 shots. Seems a bit of a risk relying on that to take out a flyer. The meteoric strike is S7, but unfortunately you're hitting a vehicles side armour, so valks/vendettas & stormravens have nothing to fear.

I think the Heldrake is actually less suited to being a dedicated anti flyer unit & more for swooping past & popping transports, before flaming backfield units. Id use havocs with flakk missiles as anti air.

It is nice any infantry but for its cost it really isnt that impressive.

Havocs with flakk arent going to take down vendettas or storm ravens either as again str 7 is kinda low for av12

Exactly, 25 points per missile launcher and they are only S7 and lack intercept so they are garbage IMO. I am just going to field the dirt cheap 4 autocanon unit I have been. 115 for 8 S7 shots as apposed to 175!!! I have run the scenarios against AV11 already, 3 five man flakk squads is 525, 3 night scythes WITH their 5 man warrior units clocks in at 495!!! They enter play and kill half the havocs and lose nothing in return, it's pathetic.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Has anyone else noticed the glaring inconsistencies in this book also. WHY THE FETH are lightning claws +30 points for chosen!! that's literally insanity. They were 20 a pair before, now you pay the cost of a terminator just for claws! We gained a buff in bikes and spawns which I love but I am finding horrible issues with almost every other infantry category. A missile launcher with flakk rounds is +25!!! The enormous nerf to demon weapons!!! Can someone explain to me how lucious is 5 more points then Kharne lmao... Lucious still sucks, he gets better when he fights things he is destined to lose to and runs the risk of losing challenges where he should be guaranteed victory.

I don't want to appear overly negative, I just don't understand why it is so hard for Phil Kelley to write a book with pounds of internal imbalance from unit to unit. Seriously just look at the cost of certain items from unit to unit, it's laughably silly.

yeah, autocannon havocs are awesome, flakk is useless.

I am very sad that phil kelly wrote this book. my other army is DE and it also has the same problems

 5deadly wrote:
Hey man thanks for posting this review…
While some say “Should be here - should be there…its and Opinion blablabla” it does contain your ideas /opinions for certain units and best builds and that Validates it being in tactics not general.

Thanks a lot for the feedback. It does mean a fair bit. And as for what people say, of course it's opinion. Almost every statement in the world barring mathematics is an opinion.

There's a world of difference between INFORMED opinion and just blabbing, though, and I tried to offer some insight. Despite the usual choris of "you guys are such whiners, you wanted an OP codex!", I pointed out several units and rules thatI felt were good and powerful. I also missed a lot, of course: I only just now realized Oblits are no longer fearless.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Leth wrote:
If units have different capabilities shouldn't things cost a different amount?

Obviously, which was not my point. The cost increase should be built into the model based on his capabilities, not his gear. You can't seriously tell me +30 points is a reasonable adjustment when warp talons cost that and come with a jump pack, demon, blind, those same claws lol. Hmmm. let me think, claws or a terminator? Claws, or a chaos spawn? Claws or 3 melta guns in the same unit!!!

he did the same thing with DE. Scouges and DE warriors pay the same 25 points for a dark lance even though the scourge is replacing a splinter carbine?
wrack upgrade sergeants losing attacks when they take weapons.

Holy Daemon Princes seem questionable now.

My new Daemon Prince is my allied Lord of Change. For the same price I get a lot more weapons, toughness 6, eternal warrior and a 3+ invulnerable save. Yeah a bit worse in close combat, not like I want to land and get instant death'd.

I don't see anything particularly wrong with the Tzeentch powers. Breath of Chaos should be one warp charge but oh well. Firestorm isn't great but the other three powers are fine. Nothing wrong with getting a bunch of chaos boon rolls, especially on something expensive like Ahriman, gives you something permanent to cast while you're out of range for other powers.

Just put together a Quartermaster template so had to look pretty closely at the units. I do like the customisability [unit champions/lords etc. can pretty much take whatever weapon loadout they want]. Have to say I agree that there are quite a lot of 'strange' options.

For example the dimensional key that stops deep strikers scattering. This only becomes active after killing an enemy model in CC. You're going to do really well to get into CC by turn 2, probably more likely by turn 3. That means by turn 4 your deep strikers won't be scattering. Oh wait they've arrived already? With only needing to roll a 3 I haven't had reserves arriving after turn 3 in any game of 6th I've played.

Helldrake is a strange one too. All the artwork seems to show it taking out flyers but with only a str 7 vector strike it's got less than a 50/50 chance of getting a pen on av11 and 1 in 6 on av12. The flamer sounds useful but that makes it pretty useless against vehicles and all that for 170 points. For 175 points I get a voidraven bomber for my dark eldar with 2 void lances, void mine and 2 implosion missiles.

Still can't get over sonic blasters becoming salvo and the price of daemon princes, leaves my noise marine army with no viable CC options [unless I want to take allies].

 Exergy wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Leth wrote:
If units have different capabilities shouldn't things cost a different amount?

Obviously, which was not my point. The cost increase should be built into the model based on his capabilities, not his gear. You can't seriously tell me +30 points is a reasonable adjustment when warp talons cost that and come with a jump pack, demon, blind, those same claws lol. Hmmm. let me think, claws or a terminator? Claws, or a chaos spawn? Claws or 3 melta guns in the same unit!!!

he did the same thing with DE. Scouges and DE warriors pay the same 25 points for a dark lance even though the scourge is replacing a splinter carbine?
wrack upgrade sergeants losing attacks when they take weapons.

I guess he equates KB to blood claws, because that's literally what they are now, over priced blood claws.

I think the book is fine if you play death guard or EC. I seriously am contemplating using SW or BA for my Berzerker army now though. If I were a T-son player I would use GK like many others. It's just insane to me how he still struggles to find internal balance in his books. I am going to assume it's mostly the accountants at this point, it has to be. Mauler fiend 125 to a defilers 195! Big surprise it is a brand new overpriced kit. Chaos bikers are 20 to a raptors 17, I mean seriously a KB is almost as much as a bike now!!!! I love the drop in spawns too, possibly their least sold item ever. Can they make it more obvious they are pushing items that are new or haven't sold in the past? EVERYONE has demon princes, what better way to kill them off then to make markless DP impossible, sorry "pretend markless", because even cult armies can't field a DP to unlock their units lol. Now you will use the demon book for them right? Oh look you need to purchase those new demon kits. I mean, I understand they are company whos aim is to turn a profit, but they could still find some internal balance and turn a profit. I admit I own a lot o chaos stuff, some would say too much, but had they not bent most of my favorite units over the granite countertop and delivered some backdoor injustice I would have been more excited, heck I was going to start a Typhus army and an EC army, which as I said were largely unaffected but now I have such a bad taste in my mouth from my other units that I may just finish my DE/IG remodel...

End rant...

Side note: I think I have gained the most joy from new chaos followers who are pleased with the release, so to those who are genuinely happy I thank and applaud you. I know I sound negative, but when you painstakingly have modeled and painted a khorne berzerker army that already sucked just to watch it get fragged some more it is hard not to be disappointed.

Models can take items from the special wargear artefacts etc... it doesnt list point values for these items? So is it free to deck out are lord and sorc's? Confused atm.

Turn a page back to the armory.

Not be joining the fray but a bare demon prince with wings is not that exspensive.

Also, while warp tallons are expensive they do have 2 lightning claws, jump pack and 5+ invonerable save. Just do not rule them out before you try them. It is hard to look at the rules and then predict gameplay. Perhaps you can hide them behind you rhino wall? It seems like people are leaning towars death guard anyway.

 Niiai wrote:
Not be joining the fray but a bare demon prince with wings is not that exspensive.

Also, while warp tallons are expensive they do have 2 lightning claws, jump pack and 5+ invonerable save. Just do not rule them out before you try them. It is hard to look at the rules and then predict gameplay. Perhaps you can hide them behind you rhino wall? It seems like people are leaning towars death guard anyway.

A bare demon prince with wings is insanely expensive and adds nothing to your offense unless he lands, at which time he dies lol.

Death guard is all I ever saw before. With Typhus getting even better I really don't see how this is going to change.

Warp talons are expensive but apparently miles ahead of chosen with lightning claws. With old icons these guys would have been considered, but I can't see the point in paying for their blind attack as it would never risk such a non disposable unit that way.

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Not be joining the fray but a bare demon prince with wings is not that exspensive.

Also, while warp tallons are expensive they do have 2 lightning claws, jump pack and 5+ invonerable save. Just do not rule them out before you try them. It is hard to look at the rules and then predict gameplay. Perhaps you can hide them behind you rhino wall? It seems like people are leaning towars death guard anyway.

Warp talons are expensive but apparently miles ahead of chosen with lightning claws. With old icons these guys would have been considered, but I can't see the point in paying for their blind attack as it would never risk such a non disposable unit that way.

skyshield landing pad for counter assault goodness?

 Exergy wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

 Niiai wrote:
Not be joining the fray but a bare demon prince with wings is not that exspensive.

Also, while warp tallons are expensive they do have 2 lightning claws, jump pack and 5+ invonerable save. Just do not rule them out before you try them. It is hard to look at the rules and then predict gameplay. Perhaps you can hide them behind you rhino wall? It seems like people are leaning towars death guard anyway.

Warp talons are expensive but apparently miles ahead of chosen with lightning claws. With old icons these guys would have been considered, but I can't see the point in paying for their blind attack as it would never risk such a non disposable unit that way.

skyshield landing pad for counter assault goodness?

Ha ha, add to the cost of the combo and pray you play a dumby ....WTH I'd try it

It is almost too eerie that the units I had planned to build before this codex "just for fun' ended up being incredibly viable. Spawn with MoN are going to be nasty, and I couldn't be more happy, as I finally have a unit of medium sized beasts that have been lacking in both the last Chaos codex and Chaos Daemons codex that fit a Nurgle theme and are a reasonable cost.

Also Palaquin for either a Sorcerer or Lord is awesome (and I'm no longer regretting the impulse buy on a box of Nurglings to build a palaquin) but in my opinion, a level 3 Palaquin Sorcerer with Biomancy is going to be killer. It gets expensive quick, but I honestly like the option, as Typhus shouldn't be the only auto-take for a Nurgle Sorcerer. Give him Sigil of Corruption and the dude gets silly tough. Roll an Iron Arm for Biomancy and it just becomes ridiculous. Might not be a tournament build, but I don't care it is fun, and useful and that's all I'm after.

If they don't change Epidemus' tally to only work for Daemons, then I think it is safe to say Epidemus allies will be a mainstay in competitive Nurgle lists.

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

Thousand Sons have been either horrible, bad or subpar for 5 straight codices. Why would this one be any different?

GubbinsGob wrote:
Hopefully the trend continues.

See this is the part that annoys the living out of me. People are really naive to think this will continue this way. When has Gamesworkshop ever been consistent? Ever!? An example please! I am dying here! Give me a example and not rhetoric about how you like the codex. Until then, we have to deal with books like Necrons and Grey Knights. Absurd.

This book is garbage in this metagame. In a parallel universe where Gamesworkshop knows what it is doing, maybe it would be a good book but right now it's basically 3rd Edition-Light. Purchasing Gifts of Mutation, only to roll 11-16, is a point sink and a unknown risk. Generals play strategies around capabilities just about as their knowledge of the enemy, and if your stats are random, you can't do that.

 Backdraft005 wrote:

GubbinsGob wrote:
Hopefully the trend continues.

See this is the part that annoys the living out of me. People are really naive to think this will continue this way. When has Gamesworkshop ever been consistent? Ever!? An example please! I am dying here! Give me a example and not rhetoric about how you like the codex. Until then, we have to deal with books like Necrons and Grey Knights. Absurd.

This book is garbage in this metagame. In a parallel universe where Gamesworkshop knows what it is doing, maybe it would be a good book but right now it's basically 3rd Edition-Light. Purchasing Gifts of Mutation, only to roll 11-16, is a point sink and a unknown risk. Generals play strategies around capabilities just about as their knowledge of the enemy, and if your stats are random, you can't do that.

Newsflash: GW doesn´t care about tournament play! You heard it here first! (if you live under a rock, that is)

Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Lovepug13 wrote:
Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Hah, hadn´t even noticed that...now that´s just odd. Why wouldn´t they give them grenades?

Ah,w ell, I wouldn´t have run them anyways because LC´s look silly to me.

You dont have to play a tounament to want to play at a high level. GW just doesnt bother to hire decent players to test their rules and can't be bothered.

This book is basically marines but even more vanilla than vanilla with all special rules as upgrades and then overcost the crap out of anything demonic.

 Tarrasq wrote:
You dont have to play a tounament to want to play at a high level. GW just doesnt bother to hire decent players to test their rules and can't be bothered.

This book is basically marines but even more vanilla than vanilla with all special rules as upgrades and then overcost the crap out of anything demonic.

Well, that GW doesn´t playtest isn´t news either, now is it?

I disagree about your other point, some things as overpriced, some aren´t...again, nothing new. The term "vanilla" as I have come to understand it, implies that something is boring. The new Codex is certainly not boring, at least to me. And there is definitely some potential for high level play there; wether it will become one of the top dogs or not remains to be seen.

The only thing that really bothers me, balance-wise, these days is flyer-spam, and it does bother me that the CSM codex did nothing to remedy this.

 Backdraft005 wrote:

This book is garbage in this metagame. In a parallel universe where Gamesworkshop knows what it is doing, maybe it would be a good book but right now it's basically 3rd Edition-Light. Purchasing Gifts of Mutation, only to roll 11-16, is a point sink and a unknown risk. Generals play strategies around capabilities just about as their knowledge of the enemy, and if your stats are random, you can't do that.

Ah, we already have this thread! I'm amazed you've played enough games to come to such a judgement already. I'm sure you will come to find yourself vindicated, just like all the players raging about the underpowered and useless new Grey Knight and Necron codexes oh so many months ago.

It may not be about the power......just lack of representation for suitable builds???

grifter wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Hah, hadn´t even noticed that...now that´s just odd. Why wouldn´t they give them grenades?

Ah,w ell, I wouldn´t have run them anyways because LC´s look silly to me.

why dont incubi have grenades
why dont mandrakes have grenades
why DO scourges have grenades

because phil kelly doesnt know what he is doing

 Exergy wrote:

grifter wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Hah, hadn´t even noticed that...now that´s just odd. Why wouldn´t they give them grenades?

Ah,w ell, I wouldn´t have run them anyways because LC´s look silly to me.

why dont incubi have grenades
why dont mandrakes have grenades
why DO scourges have grenades

because phil kelly doesnt know what he is doing

Pretty much this. He has no clue what he has put into the same codex. I get an image of him working on a codex for a week and putting it away for a month and then picking it up again and not bothering to look back at what he wrote prior. It's annoying as F***! Why are grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs and wolf scouts all 15 points base? There is no way to justify that if you look at their equipment rules and stats, yet there it is. Look at venoms for feths sake, its a transport that literally doubles it's fire output for 10 points. That's like giving a razorback a second weapons turret for 10 points, its insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also lols at warp talons lacking grenades that is classic right there.

Asides from lacking grenades silliness,
Asides from some poor points cost choices,
Asides from some ugly models,
Asides from the random random random have some more randomness that ye cannot plan an army due to the randomness of it...

......Anyone else noticing the pile up of cross referencing for special rules you shouldn't have to cross reference? or just...plain silly bad layout? I know i know "gw what do you expect", but...
Axe of blind fury- It's cool, AP2 +2S doesn't strike last, ok it hits your WS/BS but to be honest I'd still love and AP2 strike at initiative weapon, daemon weapon to boot, great, gives you rage....
wait. It can only be taken by a model with a MoK.
MoK GIVES YOU RAGE.
Why does my axe, which can only be taken by models with a MoK, give me a special rule that my MoK already gives me?

Asides from no assault nades on the warp talons, no krak grenades? no ability to take on vehicles whatsoever? No hit and run in case they get in melee? do whot?

Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive. And only available on one unit! It seems indeed that Aegis defense lines+your own fliers are the only decent AA available. A helldrake could probably come on turn 2 and have enough range with movement+torrent USR to hit them with a S6AP3 flamer. oh lol your AA unit has a good chance of losing most of its rokkits in a single shot. Enjoy pegging 1-2 missiles that need 5's to do anything.

The codex seems actually really really powerful. IF the dice/chaos gods smile very favorably on you...
Well at least my khorne cult counts as still works...

Jihallah wrote:Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive.

25ppm actually.

Jihallah wrote:The codex seems actually really really powerful. IF the dice/chaos gods smile very favorably on you...
Well at least my khorne cult counts as still works...

It's not really, really powerful no, but anyone with half a mind to actually try making an army not to mind playing one instead of whining because some options are bad (because that never happens ) will find it is competent, which is the sort of level books should be at. They have managed 5 balanced Fantasy books in a row, and have started good for 40k, so I can't see why that will not continue (cue someone's rant about all their anti-GW feelings because hating GW is all the rage).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive.

25ppm actually.

on top of a 13 point marine.
compared to a 23 point autocannon wielder

Who here wants to use a Warpsmith's curse on the local IG player's prized Punisher tank?

I've seen more punishers since the FAQ nerfed their Lumbering Behemoth rule, so even though it is situational it would be hilarious to put that curse on a couple of punisher tanks.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Has anyone else noticed the glaring inconsistencies in this book also. WHY THE FETH are lightning claws +30 points for chosen!! that's literally insanity. They were 20 a pair before, now you pay the cost of a terminator just for claws! We gained a buff in bikes and spawns which I love but I am finding horrible issues with almost every other infantry category. A missile launcher with flakk rounds is +25!!! The enormous nerf to demon weapons!!! Can someone explain to me how lucious is 5 more points then Kharne lmao... Lucious still sucks, he gets better when he fights things he is destined to lose to and runs the risk of losing challenges where he should be guaranteed victory.

I don't want to appear overly negative, I just don't understand why it is so hard for Phil Kelley to write a book with pounds of internal imbalance from unit to unit. Seriously just look at the cost of certain items from unit to unit, it's laughably silly.

so a chosen is 18 points, a terminator is 31 points
the terminator comes with a power weapon, a chosen with a power weapon costs 33 points. but even worse, the terminator comes with a combi bolter and a 2+/5+.

chosen with a power fist is 43 points, a terminator with a power fist is 38 points
chosen with a lightning claw is 33 points, a terminator with a lightning claw is 38 points
chosen with a pair of lightning claws is 48 points, a terminator with a pair of claws is 38 points.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihallah wrote:
Asides from lacking grenades silliness,
......Anyone else noticing the pile up of cross referencing for special rules you shouldn't have to cross reference? or just...plain silly bad layout? I know i know "gw what do you expect", but...
Axe of blind fury- It's cool, AP2 +2S doesn't strike last, ok it hits your WS/BS but to be honest I'd still love and AP2 strike at initiative weapon, daemon weapon to boot, great, gives you rage....
wait. It can only be taken by a model with a MoK.
MoK GIVES YOU RAGE.
Why does my axe, which can only be taken by models with a MoK, give me a special rule that my MoK already gives me?

Warpsmith
Wargear:
....
Mechatendrils come stock
Special Rules:
Master of Mechanism:
Repair........Roll a D6(add +1 IF the Warpsmith has mechantendrils ). If the result is 5 or more........


so in any possible case it will be 4 or more

 Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

 FifteenHours wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

didnt they rule fateweaver only works on codex daemon models after the unkillable allied chaos terminators were around?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive.

25ppm actually.

13 havoc
10p for a misile launcher
10p for flak on top
13+10+10=33. Since the flakk missiles are a bullet point with a missile launcher, it seems pretty clear you need to take the ML first.
33ppm for a s5 AA missile. woo hoo.

Jihallah wrote:The codex seems actually really really powerful. IF the dice/chaos gods smile very favorably on you...
Well at least my khorne cult counts as still works...

It's not really, really powerful no, but anyone with half a mind to actually try making an army not to mind playing one instead of whining because some options are bad (because that never happens ) will find it is competent

Alright everybody has to stop complaining about tzeentch. It is by far the best god when using daemon allies.

One thing I see being a great investment for CSM players is the sky shield landing pad. It does a few great things for us. First off, It gives us a great firing platform. Second, when unfurled it allows us to deep strike without scatter, which is VITAL for a non-gun line army. Third, if you keep the shields up, your models get a 4+ inv save.

Here's where it gets amazing. Mark of tzeentch adds +1 to the models inv save, so all of your tzeentch models will be getting 3++ saves on top of this bad boy! Combine this with fate weaver and this can rival a tally build.

What I see is gonna be CSM with daemons allies. Something like:

Fateweaver
Horrors
Flamers
Screamers
Any CSM tzeentch hq
Tzeentch havocs
Tzeentch CSM
Add in some cultists, spawn, bikes, or daemon engines for taste

Cjc1223 wrote:
Here's where it gets amazing. Mark of tzeentch adds +1 to the models inv save, so all of your tzeentch models will be getting 3++ saves on top of this bad boy! Combine this with fate weaver and this can rival a tally build

Adds it to the model's save. Not the skyshield's save.
They don't stack, and if they do I give up on this edition <_<

 FifteenHours wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

I would go with a pair of Heralds on discs with Bolt and Breath of Chaos, two units of Horrors with Bolt and Changeling and a unit of Screamers, and potentially a DP or Flamers. All those options provide anti-armor options and/or are all around good choices for the points. It would also look sweet on the table with a Thousand Sons force.

Fateweaver won't work on CSM units, but a Lord of Change could be worthwile in higher point games.

Actually starting to warm to the idea of warpsmiths. No servo arm powerfists, just a melta and a flamer. But 4+ repair is cool, and I can't see any reasoning why I need LoS to my target to curse it- just be within 18"... Your aegis defence line becomes 5+ instead of 4+... hmmmmmm....

On the subject of silly rules- Dark apostles can take Veterans of the Long War...for free...





....................ummmmmmmmmmmm? "they might NOT want free hatred vs space marines!"...do whot?

Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

 Jihallah wrote:
Actually starting to warm to the idea of warpsmiths. No servo arm powerfists, just a melta and a flamer. But 4+ repair is cool, and I can't see any reasoning why I need LoS to my target to curse it- just be within 18"... Your aegis defence line becomes 5+ instead of 4+... hmmmmmm....

On the subject of silly rules- Dark apostles can take Veterans of the Long War...for free...

....................ummmmmmmmmmmm? "they might NOT want free hatred vs space marines!"...do whot?

Warpsmiths shatter cannot target terrain purchased, no cant work on an ADL

Dark Apostles have LD 10 and Zealot, meaning they are fearless and have hatred: everything. Veterans of the long war gives them what exactly?

 Jihallah wrote:

Cjc1223 wrote:
Here's where it gets amazing. Mark of tzeentch adds +1 to the models inv save, so all of your tzeentch models will be getting 3++ saves on top of this bad boy! Combine this with fate weaver and this can rival a tally build

Adds it to the model's save. Not the skyshield's save.
They don't stack, and if they do I give up on this edition <_<

Think about it. The wording is essentially the same as stealth and shrouding so why wouldn't it apply here? We all know you can use stealth with an area cover save and jink save.

The cover save is given to the unit, just like this inv save. They are identical.

Same principles should apply.

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

This is what I mean when I say this codex feels safe and...bland. Tzeentch forbid chaos having an ability that actively messes with a marine or IG's fun, especially if it means a new model kit sells less. Now Warpquake, Divination, Vendettas and Long Fangs, those have never bene unfair to no one, no siree.

It's like after writing some books they go through them with a fine-tooth-comb and cut out anything that would gall Imperial players too much*. "Hmm, overwatch with inferno bolts will make Blood Angels cry, so out it goes. Psykers from the god of magic and fate shouldn't get Divination...let's give it to the wolfmen who hate psykers and sorcery instead. Also, I heard a Dreadknight once lost to a Daemon Prince somewhere; make sure it never happens again!"

*= Yes, I'm aware Necrons are a dot outside this curve. Chalk it up to a bump in the supply giving Matt ward abnormally pure crystal meth while writing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cjc1223 wrote:
Alright everybody has to stop complaining about tzeentch. It is by far the best god when using daemon allies.

One thing I see being a great investment for CSM players is the sky shield landing pad. It does a few great things for us. First off, It gives us a great firing platform. Second, when unfurled it allows us to deep strike without scatter, which is VITAL for a non-gun line army. Third, if you keep the shields up, your models get a 4+ inv save.

Not saying it's not an interesting build; a friend of mine is trying something similar mostly because he likes the looks of 1KSons and Tzeentch daemons. But you're aware that Fatewever's re-roll abilit has been FAQ'd and no longer works for allies chaos marines, right?

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

D'OH! I thought i was onto something there!

 Exergy wrote:


Dark Apostles have LD 10 and Zealot, meaning they are fearless and have hatred: everything. Veterans of the long war gives them what exactly?

A warm feeling deep in their hearts I think.

Ohhh! +1 leadership!...but already LD10... do whot?

Cjc1223 wrote:
Think about it. The wording is essentially the same as stealth and shrouding so why wouldn't it apply here? We all know you can use stealth with an area cover save and jink save.

The cover save is given to the unit, just like this inv save. They are identical.

Same principles should apply.

Sad but true. Sigh.

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

 Sephyr wrote:

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

This is what I mean when I say this codex feels safe and...bland. Tzeentch forbid chaos having an ability that actively messes with a marine or IG's fun, especially if it means a new model kit sells less. Now Warpquake, Divination, Vendettas and Long Fangs, those have never bene unfair to no one, no siree.

It's like after writing some books they go through them with a fine-tooth-comb and cut out anything that would gall Imperial players too much*. "Hmm, overwatch with inferno bolts will make Blood Angels cry, so out it goes. Psykers from the god of magic and fate shouldn't get Divination...let's give it to the wolfmen who hate psykers and sorcery instead. Also, I heard a Dreadknight once lost to a Daemon Prince somewhere; make sure it never happens again!"

HAHAHAHAHA OMG! Yeah Iron Warriors are really good at tearing down defenses. Like trees and shrubs. But not actual fortifications that were, you know, put there on purpose to protect something. OMG this is rich. You lay siege very well... like geisha!

Everything should become very clear real soon. If Codex: Dark Angels hits and it's another Matt Ward facemelter and not a bland milquetoast Codex: Weaksauce I'm calling shenanigans. I got my broom.

Dark apostle probably has it in case you wanted your rules to reflect the fluff of your characters more.

Axe I have a feeling will get FAQed to be allowed on daemon princes of khorne, hence the rage.

Also tried zombies tonight and not being able to run really put a cramp on my style. I am going to use a regular squad as an escort for typhus, since he gives them fearless anyway. Losing out on the FNP but can get three flamers in the squad as well as GTG if need be after typhus leaves. Found that having a rhino man a quad gun is quite useful. Getting that 4+ all the time. Facing tau with Eldrad support(Still cant beat it) I saw how helpful the heldrake would be after I used to torrent flamer to great success. Thinking two of those combined with those vector strikes would really put a dent in any armies ground forces. Outside of the croissant army I think a quad gun with some good area coverage with cultists will really make it not as difficult to deal with lots of fliers.

 Leth wrote:
Dark apostle probably has it in case you wanted your rules to reflect the fluff of your characters more.

Axe I have a feeling will get FAQed to be allowed on daemon princes of khorne, hence the rage.

What do you mean FAQ'ed? I see nothing to stop daemon princes having the axe.
It is an artefact
the DP can take artefacts
...why do we need a faq?

 Jihallah wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Dark apostle probably has it in case you wanted your rules to reflect the fluff of your characters more.

Axe I have a feeling will get FAQed to be allowed on daemon princes of khorne, hence the rage.

What do you mean FAQ'ed? I see nothing to stop daemon princes having the axe.
It is an artefact
the DP can take artefacts
...why do we need a faq?

A FAQ for the whole "DPs don't have marks, so they can't take the mark specific gear" thing...

I can use... to make it look like people have missed something obvious...
But I'm choosing not to be a passive donkey-cave since it's a new 'dex and mistakes are expected to be made

Well that just sucks. I can't believe a Daemon of khorne doesn't have a mark of khorne (double you tea eff mate >< ). I can't believe there's not spartan prince either! They got rid of the best kind of DP!

Please to be faq'd asap ><

 Exergy wrote:

so a chosen is 18 points, a terminator is 31 points
the terminator comes with a power weapon, a chosen with a power weapon costs 33 points. but even worse, the terminator comes with a combi bolter and a 2+/5+.

chosen with a power fist is 43 points, a terminator with a power fist is 38 points
chosen with a lightning claw is 33 points, a terminator with a lightning claw is 38 points
chosen with a pair of lightning claws is 48 points, a terminator with a pair of claws is 38 points.....

Ouch.

Somehow these sort of internal balance issues bother me more than balance issues when comparing to some other codex. I want to choose units I like, and these sorts of wacky points costs punish me for it.

I think the Chosen are nicest unit in this codex, and I really want to have a bunch of them with a Mark of Khorne and poweraxes. Seeing that comparison made me a bit less confident about that plan... Oh well, it would not be a first time I take unit that is cool but overpriced.

I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

Before their special spam was helped by infiltrate, and It would be awesome to infiltrate special weapon chosen troops, but Abbadabadoo is so obsessed with killing space marines that using tactics, especially against non marines, is a no no...le sigh

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

I never had a Chaos army, I have no clue what a role of any unit used to be. You see them as elite tactical marines that happen to have close combat weapons; I see them as elite assault marines that happen to have bolters.

And I want Khornate warriors with insane amount of attacks and poweraxes, damn it! Berzerkers can't deliver, so the Chosen have to do it, even if it is overpriced. Besides, it is not like their two attacks make them shoot any better, might as well take full use of it and get them into mêlée.

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

I never had a Chaos army, I have no clue what a role of any unit used to be. You see them as elite tactical marines that happen to have close combat weapons; I see them as elite assault marines that happen to have bolters.

And I want Khornate warriors with insane amount of attacks and poweraxes, damn it! Berzerkers can't deliver, so the Chosen have to do it, even if it is overpriced. Besides, it is not like their two attacks make them shoot any better, might as well take full use of it and get them into mêlée.

Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

I really wanted Warptalons to be good, I really really did. I'll still use them in my Casual lists, but damn talk about wasted potential.

One one hand though, Terminators seem pretty damn good, for what you get, at 31 points. Combi-melta, and Combi-Plasma are cheap.

I like the Warpsmith, with 5A base, he's pretty neat. Throw on an Aura of Dark Glory, and MoN, and he can be pretty decent in combat.

It's going to take a lot of testing, to see if the 5++, Daemonforge, and IWND work out well in play. On Paper, it seems decent, but will really need some games.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

Regular CSM may not have as many attacks as Bezerkers and Chosen, but I found that they can fill the space abit better and for cheaper and still have FC, C-A and Rage

they worked well for me as a multi-use squad

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 Sephyr wrote:

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

This is what I mean when I say this codex feels safe and...bland. Tzeentch forbid chaos having an ability that actively messes with a marine or IG's fun, especially if it means a new model kit sells less. Now Warpquake, Divination, Vendettas and Long Fangs, those have never bene unfair to no one, no siree.

It's like after writing some books they go through them with a fine-tooth-comb and cut out anything that would gall Imperial players too much*. "Hmm, overwatch with inferno bolts will make Blood Angels cry, so out it goes. Psykers from the god of magic and fate shouldn't get Divination...let's give it to the wolfmen who hate psykers and sorcery instead. Also, I heard a Dreadknight once lost to a Daemon Prince somewhere; make sure it never happens again!"

HAHAHAHAHA OMG! Yeah Iron Warriors are really good at tearing down defenses. Like trees and shrubs. But not actual fortifications that were, you know, put there on purpose to protect something. OMG this is rich. You lay siege very well... like geisha!

Everything should become very clear real soon. If Codex: Dark Angels hits and it's another Matt Ward facemelter and not a bland milquetoast Codex: Weaksauce I'm calling shenanigans. I got my broom.

I got so excited until I realized shatter has no useful targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihallah wrote:

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

D'OH! I thought i was onto something there!

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

at least the skyshield landing pad could possibly be a deep strikeable vehicle itself. the fortress of redemption and junk is just crazy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

so a chosen is 18 points, a terminator is 31 points
the terminator comes with a power weapon, a chosen with a power weapon costs 33 points. but even worse, the terminator comes with a combi bolter and a 2+/5+.

chosen with a power fist is 43 points, a terminator with a power fist is 38 points
chosen with a lightning claw is 33 points, a terminator with a lightning claw is 38 points
chosen with a pair of lightning claws is 48 points, a terminator with a pair of claws is 38 points.....

Ouch.

Somehow these sort of internal balance issues bother me more than balance issues when comparing to some other codex. I want to choose units I like, and these sorts of wacky points costs punish me for it.

I think the Chosen are nicest unit in this codex, and I really want to have a bunch of them with a Mark of Khorne and poweraxes. Seeing that comparison made me a bit less confident about that plan... Oh well, it would not be a first time I take unit that is cool but overpriced.

yeah.... just kind of annoying.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sasori wrote:
I really wanted Warptalons to be good, I really really did. I'll still use them in my Casual lists, but damn talk about wasted potential.

I like the Warpsmith, with 5A base, he's pretty neat. Throw on an Aura of Dark Glory, and MoN, and he can be pretty decent in combat.

Warptalons would have been so easy, just give them grenades and less scatter. done, suddenly useful but no OP option.

Warpsmiths need a weapon right? and even then they are 2W and WS 4 init 4.

 Jihallah wrote:

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

Well, it could be that both pads are yours, and your opponent is attacking your landing field and managed to take one of them. Having two fortresses facing off against each other is really hard to justify though.

CommissarGeneral wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

Regular CSM may not have as many attacks as Bezerkers and Chosen, but I found that they can fill the space abit better and for cheaper and still have FC, C-A and Rage

they worked well for me as a multi-use squad

I've been considering this as well. They actually have respectable firepower, can crack vehicles or plasma MCs, which seem to make up for the lack of that extra attack and FC. Not beinf fearless, they can also hunker down in area terrain with a 3+ cover save whenyou want to outlast some heavy shooting.

That said, I'll still keep a unit of zerkers in my list, mostly because I already painted them and Kharn is still fun.

Explain to me how a DP can't take a mark! That is absurd!

Warpsmiths need a weapon right? and even then they are 2W and WS 4 init 4.

They come standard with a Power Axe, and Bolt pistol. The Mechatendrils also allow you to fire up to two weapons, and comes with a Meltagun and flamer.

 Starfarer wrote:

 FifteenHours wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

I would go with a pair of Heralds on discs with Bolt and Breath of Chaos, two units of Horrors with Bolt and Changeling and a unit of Screamers, and potentially a DP or Flamers. All those options provide anti-armor options and/or are all around good choices for the points.

Fateweaver won't work on CSM units, but a Lord of Change could be worthwile in higher point games.

That is sad that Fateweaver wont work.

It would also look sweet on the table with a Thousand Sons force.

This is what attracted me to this in the first place! They would just look really really good. I am not so bothered about competitiveness, as long as it's semi-competitive and fun to play I am happy tbh.

What's everyones opinion on Noise Marines? I see them as a pretty good objective holder currently with pretty good damage output

I think for goofing around I am going to run a cultist horde with a slight Nurgle tinge (think Siege of Vracks 3) and allied IG. Pretty much like a heretical preacher turned the city. Lots of IG and cultists/zombies with a small core of Typhus and Plaguemarines.

For competitive I am gonna be running an Eppi list with everything possible MoN and bikers. If there is room maybe Typhus and zombie cultist for an objective sitter.

I'll play with other combos too, but off the top of my head this is what I come up with.

 Sephyr wrote:

CommissarGeneral wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:


Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

Regular CSM may not have as many attacks as Bezerkers and Chosen, but I found that they can fill the space abit better and for cheaper and still have FC, C-A and Rage

they worked well for me as a multi-use squad

I've been considering this as well. They actually have respectable firepower, can crack vehicles or plasma MCs, which seem to make up for the lack of that extra attack and FC. Not beinf fearless, they can also hunker down in area terrain with a 3+ cover save whenyou want to outlast some heavy shooting.

That said, I'll still keep a unit of zerkers in my list, mostly because I already painted them and Kharn is still fun.

Kharn is always a must for a Khorne army

Typhus being only toughness 5 still is a real buzz kill. Yay for instant gibbing him with artillery still. :( Plague marines are just as tough as the herald of nurgle...



For all the marks it doesnt say they are included in the profile so it could be argued that he is toughness 6 etc... really nothing stopping that argument it will need faq'd because he is toughness 5.

I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

I guess they can't take on tanks in one turn these days... I suppose that makes their cost feel a little silly. I guess they'd also be able to instakill meq that way too. I wonder what 35 points is worth.

 Tomb King wrote:
Typhus being only toughness 5 still is a real buzz kill. Yay for instant gibbing him with artillery still. :( Plague marines are just as tough as the herald of nurgle...



For all the marks it doesnt say they are included in the profile so it could be argued that he is toughness 6 etc... really nothing stopping that argument it will need faq'd because he is toughness 5.

No, it does state that on characters if a mark is listed it is included in their profile.

Attomsk wrote:

 Tomb King wrote:
Typhus being only toughness 5 still is a real buzz kill. Yay for instant gibbing him with artillery still. :( Plague marines are just as tough as the herald of nurgle...



For all the marks it doesnt say they are included in the profile so it could be argued that he is toughness 6 etc... really nothing stopping that argument it will need faq'd because he is toughness 5.

No, it does state that on characters if a mark is listed it is included in their profile.

what page does it state that? It does state, "when a mark of chaos is listed in a unit's special rules, its effects will have already been taken into acount in its profile, where applicable." So since typhus is a unit with it listed in his special rules it could be considered that it is already included.

Now the fun one. Abbadon doesnt have the marks listed in his special rules but then it states he gets all marks below all that. So RAW he gets an extra boost for all of the marks. Note: Just playing devils advocate.

As for warp talons not having grenades name anything that has the daemon special rule and has grenades...

 Lucre wrote:
I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

I guess they can't take on tanks in one turn these days... I suppose that makes their cost feel a little silly. I guess they'd also be able to instakill meq that way too. I wonder what 35 points is worth.

I've been looking at a DP with that Black Mace... that weapon is drool worthy now... (it'll be AP2)

 Lucre wrote:
I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

The mace is probably a better choice for the prince, but it is not about that. If he could have the axe then there would at least be some reason for the axe to give rage to its wielder.

I'm sorta happy with guys that can hide in squads and hit like MCs do. Making me wish chaos could field more ICs. 3 hqs with high initiative ap2. But I guess with all the wound allocations tricks, 3++ and fnp in the world, even that isn't particularly exciting.

my biggest gripe is how the dp can never get better than a 5+ invuln now, yeah tzeentch can reroll 1s which is kind of perfect for them, but the loss of eternal warrior still leaves you a high chance of getting vaporized, and the higher invlun makes it much easier to be wittled down by everything else.

they should amend aura of dark glory to increase increase the + invuln, or let the dp take sigil of corruption.

If you look at the daemon prince art... he is equipped with a bolt pistol to show how bad ass he is....

 Benamint wrote:
I think for goofing around I am going to run a cultist horde with a slight Nurgle tinge (think Siege of Vracks 3) and allied IG. Pretty much like a heretical preacher turned the city. Lots of IG and cultists/zombies with a small core of Typhus and Plaguemarines.

For competitive I am gonna be running an Eppi list with everything possible MoN and bikers. If there is room maybe Typhus and zombie cultist for an objective sitter.

I'll play with other combos too, but off the top of my head this is what I come up with.

I am doing similar for fun goofing. Wanted more out of cultists but instead will have to use IG for everything other than close combat machines.

Here is something I was thinking about, Abby has all 4 mark right? It also states that you cannot inter mix units of different marks. Unless I'm reading it wrong Abby can't join other units, aside from unmarked ones that is.

 Lucre wrote:
I'm sorta happy with guys that can hide in squads and hit like MCs do. Making me wish chaos could field more ICs. 3 hqs with high initiative ap2. But I guess with all the wound allocations tricks, 3++ and fnp in the world, even that isn't particularly exciting.

I dont see why SW can take 4 Hqs and chaos cant. Chaos should be all about personality of characters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 l0k1 wrote:
Here is something I was thinking about, Abby has all 4 mark right? It also states that you cannot inter mix units of different marks. Unless I'm reading it wrong Abby can't join other units, aside from unmarked ones that is.

abby does not have all 4 marks, he has one mark with the attributes of all of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Orkaswampa wrote:
What's everyones opinion on Noise Marines? I see them as a pretty good objective holder currently with pretty good damage output

I think noise marines are going to be in a lot more lists. Slannesh is cheap yet powerful in this edition.

Abaddon does have all 4 Marks. It says so in Mark of Chaos Ascendant on pg 57.

 whembly wrote:

 Lucre wrote:
I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

I guess they can't take on tanks in one turn these days... I suppose that makes their cost feel a little silly. I guess they'd also be able to instakill meq that way too. I wonder what 35 points is worth.

I've been looking at a DP with that Black Mace... that weapon is drool worthy now... (it'll be AP2)

And rending + extra movement on a slaanesh prince. Higher vehicle threat.

Kevlar wrote:


And rending + extra movement on a slaanesh prince. Higher vehicle threat.

That extra movement is only if he runs, which makes assaulting impossible, though. But yes, the Rending is nice and may sometimes even make it a good idea to attack normally instead of using Smash on vehicles.

 Exergy wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

D'OH! I thought i was onto something there!

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

at least the skyshield landing pad could possibly be a deep strikeable vehicle itself. the fortress of redemption and junk is just crazy.

No it ain't crazy.

Every mile of every world on every asteroid on every moon on every extremely large spaceship that we can have a battlefield sized area to fight over... there is a fortress facing a fortress, with an ADL protecting a landing pad. EVERYWHERE.
It's worse than "Eldrad will be there for you, on a million worlds, in a million battles, Eldrad is always with you" <_<

 DakkaHammer wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

Well, it could be that both pads are yours, and your opponent is attacking your landing field and managed to take one of them. Having two fortresses facing off against each other is really hard to justify though.

Every battle I play against the crusaders of blood with my 5th company of corpse-worshipping loyalists is the one AFTER he's taken my skyshield?
...do whot?

 Orkaswampa wrote:
What's everyones opinion on Noise Marines? I see them as a pretty good objective holder currently with pretty good damage output

Good vs hordes, good at gunline, but if your going sonic weapons it looks like they'd rather not move- gunline objective holders really.

 Lucre wrote:
I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

I guess they can't take on tanks in one turn these days... I suppose that makes their cost feel a little silly. I guess they'd also be able to instakill meq that way too. I wonder what 35 points is worth.

S8 daemonprince with +d6 attacks. Juicy.

 whembly wrote:

 Lucre wrote:
I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

I guess they can't take on tanks in one turn these days... I suppose that makes their cost feel a little silly. I guess they'd also be able to instakill meq that way too. I wonder what 35 points is worth.

I've been looking at a DP with that Black Mace... that weapon is drool worthy now... (it'll be AP2)

What makes it AP2? My powerstave on LoC or Tzeentch daemon princes in CD don't give the bonus strength without the AP4. What makes this different?

 l0k1 wrote:
Here is something I was thinking about, Abby has all 4 mark right? It also states that you cannot inter mix units of different marks. Unless I'm reading it wrong Abby can't join other units, aside from unmarked ones that is.

When i read my dex it does say "Mark of chaos ascendent- he must be warlord... He also has all four Marks of Chaos". Which to me points out 2 things
1) on his profile, they have missed mentioning Rage and Counter attack, since he would gain these from MoK
2)....he has all 4 marks and you cannot mix units of...different marks...SIGH