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Thousand Sons have been either horrible, bad or subpar for 5 straight codices. Why would this one be any different?

GubbinsGob wrote:
Hopefully the trend continues.

See this is the part that annoys the living out of me. People are really naive to think this will continue this way. When has Gamesworkshop ever been consistent? Ever!? An example please! I am dying here! Give me a example and not rhetoric about how you like the codex. Until then, we have to deal with books like Necrons and Grey Knights. Absurd.

This book is garbage in this metagame. In a parallel universe where Gamesworkshop knows what it is doing, maybe it would be a good book but right now it's basically 3rd Edition-Light. Purchasing Gifts of Mutation, only to roll 11-16, is a point sink and a unknown risk. Generals play strategies around capabilities just about as their knowledge of the enemy, and if your stats are random, you can't do that.

 Backdraft005 wrote:

GubbinsGob wrote:
Hopefully the trend continues.

See this is the part that annoys the living out of me. People are really naive to think this will continue this way. When has Gamesworkshop ever been consistent? Ever!? An example please! I am dying here! Give me a example and not rhetoric about how you like the codex. Until then, we have to deal with books like Necrons and Grey Knights. Absurd.

This book is garbage in this metagame. In a parallel universe where Gamesworkshop knows what it is doing, maybe it would be a good book but right now it's basically 3rd Edition-Light. Purchasing Gifts of Mutation, only to roll 11-16, is a point sink and a unknown risk. Generals play strategies around capabilities just about as their knowledge of the enemy, and if your stats are random, you can't do that.

Newsflash: GW doesn´t care about tournament play! You heard it here first! (if you live under a rock, that is)

Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Lovepug13 wrote:
Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Hah, hadn´t even noticed that...now that´s just odd. Why wouldn´t they give them grenades?

Ah,w ell, I wouldn´t have run them anyways because LC´s look silly to me.

You dont have to play a tounament to want to play at a high level. GW just doesnt bother to hire decent players to test their rules and can't be bothered.

This book is basically marines but even more vanilla than vanilla with all special rules as upgrades and then overcost the crap out of anything demonic.

 Tarrasq wrote:
You dont have to play a tounament to want to play at a high level. GW just doesnt bother to hire decent players to test their rules and can't be bothered.

This book is basically marines but even more vanilla than vanilla with all special rules as upgrades and then overcost the crap out of anything demonic.

Well, that GW doesn´t playtest isn´t news either, now is it?

I disagree about your other point, some things as overpriced, some aren´t...again, nothing new. The term "vanilla" as I have come to understand it, implies that something is boring. The new Codex is certainly not boring, at least to me. And there is definitely some potential for high level play there; wether it will become one of the top dogs or not remains to be seen.

The only thing that really bothers me, balance-wise, these days is flyer-spam, and it does bother me that the CSM codex did nothing to remedy this.

 Backdraft005 wrote:

This book is garbage in this metagame. In a parallel universe where Gamesworkshop knows what it is doing, maybe it would be a good book but right now it's basically 3rd Edition-Light. Purchasing Gifts of Mutation, only to roll 11-16, is a point sink and a unknown risk. Generals play strategies around capabilities just about as their knowledge of the enemy, and if your stats are random, you can't do that.

Ah, we already have this thread! I'm amazed you've played enough games to come to such a judgement already. I'm sure you will come to find yourself vindicated, just like all the players raging about the underpowered and useless new Grey Knight and Necron codexes oh so many months ago.

It may not be about the power......just lack of representation for suitable builds???

grifter wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Hah, hadn´t even noticed that...now that´s just odd. Why wouldn´t they give them grenades?

Ah,w ell, I wouldn´t have run them anyways because LC´s look silly to me.

why dont incubi have grenades
why dont mandrakes have grenades
why DO scourges have grenades

because phil kelly doesnt know what he is doing

 Exergy wrote:

grifter wrote:

Lovepug13 wrote:
Warp Talons dont even have grenades FFS.

Feel free to rant away chaps - I am seething that my three boxes of CSM are in effect junk with this pile of crap

Hah, hadn´t even noticed that...now that´s just odd. Why wouldn´t they give them grenades?

Ah,w ell, I wouldn´t have run them anyways because LC´s look silly to me.

why dont incubi have grenades
why dont mandrakes have grenades
why DO scourges have grenades

because phil kelly doesnt know what he is doing

Pretty much this. He has no clue what he has put into the same codex. I get an image of him working on a codex for a week and putting it away for a month and then picking it up again and not bothering to look back at what he wrote prior. It's annoying as F***! Why are grey hunters, blood claws, long fangs and wolf scouts all 15 points base? There is no way to justify that if you look at their equipment rules and stats, yet there it is. Look at venoms for feths sake, its a transport that literally doubles it's fire output for 10 points. That's like giving a razorback a second weapons turret for 10 points, its insane.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also lols at warp talons lacking grenades that is classic right there.

Asides from lacking grenades silliness,
Asides from some poor points cost choices,
Asides from some ugly models,
Asides from the random random random have some more randomness that ye cannot plan an army due to the randomness of it...

......Anyone else noticing the pile up of cross referencing for special rules you shouldn't have to cross reference? or just...plain silly bad layout? I know i know "gw what do you expect", but...
Axe of blind fury- It's cool, AP2 +2S doesn't strike last, ok it hits your WS/BS but to be honest I'd still love and AP2 strike at initiative weapon, daemon weapon to boot, great, gives you rage....
wait. It can only be taken by a model with a MoK.
MoK GIVES YOU RAGE.
Why does my axe, which can only be taken by models with a MoK, give me a special rule that my MoK already gives me?

Asides from no assault nades on the warp talons, no krak grenades? no ability to take on vehicles whatsoever? No hit and run in case they get in melee? do whot?

Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive. And only available on one unit! It seems indeed that Aegis defense lines+your own fliers are the only decent AA available. A helldrake could probably come on turn 2 and have enough range with movement+torrent USR to hit them with a S6AP3 flamer. oh lol your AA unit has a good chance of losing most of its rokkits in a single shot. Enjoy pegging 1-2 missiles that need 5's to do anything.

The codex seems actually really really powerful. IF the dice/chaos gods smile very favorably on you...
Well at least my khorne cult counts as still works...

Jihallah wrote:Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive.

25ppm actually.

Jihallah wrote:The codex seems actually really really powerful. IF the dice/chaos gods smile very favorably on you...
Well at least my khorne cult counts as still works...

It's not really, really powerful no, but anyone with half a mind to actually try making an army not to mind playing one instead of whining because some options are bad (because that never happens ) will find it is competent, which is the sort of level books should be at. They have managed 5 balanced Fantasy books in a row, and have started good for 40k, so I can't see why that will not continue (cue someone's rant about all their anti-GW feelings because hating GW is all the rage).

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive.

25ppm actually.

on top of a 13 point marine.
compared to a 23 point autocannon wielder

Who here wants to use a Warpsmith's curse on the local IG player's prized Punisher tank?

I've seen more punishers since the FAQ nerfed their Lumbering Behemoth rule, so even though it is situational it would be hilarious to put that curse on a couple of punisher tanks.

 Red Corsair wrote:


Has anyone else noticed the glaring inconsistencies in this book also. WHY THE FETH are lightning claws +30 points for chosen!! that's literally insanity. They were 20 a pair before, now you pay the cost of a terminator just for claws! We gained a buff in bikes and spawns which I love but I am finding horrible issues with almost every other infantry category. A missile launcher with flakk rounds is +25!!! The enormous nerf to demon weapons!!! Can someone explain to me how lucious is 5 more points then Kharne lmao... Lucious still sucks, he gets better when he fights things he is destined to lose to and runs the risk of losing challenges where he should be guaranteed victory.

I don't want to appear overly negative, I just don't understand why it is so hard for Phil Kelley to write a book with pounds of internal imbalance from unit to unit. Seriously just look at the cost of certain items from unit to unit, it's laughably silly.

so a chosen is 18 points, a terminator is 31 points
the terminator comes with a power weapon, a chosen with a power weapon costs 33 points. but even worse, the terminator comes with a combi bolter and a 2+/5+.

chosen with a power fist is 43 points, a terminator with a power fist is 38 points
chosen with a lightning claw is 33 points, a terminator with a lightning claw is 38 points
chosen with a pair of lightning claws is 48 points, a terminator with a pair of claws is 38 points.....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihallah wrote:
Asides from lacking grenades silliness,
......Anyone else noticing the pile up of cross referencing for special rules you shouldn't have to cross reference? or just...plain silly bad layout? I know i know "gw what do you expect", but...
Axe of blind fury- It's cool, AP2 +2S doesn't strike last, ok it hits your WS/BS but to be honest I'd still love and AP2 strike at initiative weapon, daemon weapon to boot, great, gives you rage....
wait. It can only be taken by a model with a MoK.
MoK GIVES YOU RAGE.
Why does my axe, which can only be taken by models with a MoK, give me a special rule that my MoK already gives me?

Warpsmith
Wargear:
....
Mechatendrils come stock
Special Rules:
Master of Mechanism:
Repair........Roll a D6(add +1 IF the Warpsmith has mechantendrils ). If the result is 5 or more........


so in any possible case it will be 4 or more

 Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

 FifteenHours wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

didnt they rule fateweaver only works on codex daemon models after the unkillable allied chaos terminators were around?

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Jihallah wrote:Also- at 33ppm, flakk missiles are damnably expensive.

25ppm actually.

13 havoc
10p for a misile launcher
10p for flak on top
13+10+10=33. Since the flakk missiles are a bullet point with a missile launcher, it seems pretty clear you need to take the ML first.
33ppm for a s5 AA missile. woo hoo.

Jihallah wrote:The codex seems actually really really powerful. IF the dice/chaos gods smile very favorably on you...
Well at least my khorne cult counts as still works...

It's not really, really powerful no, but anyone with half a mind to actually try making an army not to mind playing one instead of whining because some options are bad (because that never happens ) will find it is competent

Alright everybody has to stop complaining about tzeentch. It is by far the best god when using daemon allies.

One thing I see being a great investment for CSM players is the sky shield landing pad. It does a few great things for us. First off, It gives us a great firing platform. Second, when unfurled it allows us to deep strike without scatter, which is VITAL for a non-gun line army. Third, if you keep the shields up, your models get a 4+ inv save.

Here's where it gets amazing. Mark of tzeentch adds +1 to the models inv save, so all of your tzeentch models will be getting 3++ saves on top of this bad boy! Combine this with fate weaver and this can rival a tally build.

What I see is gonna be CSM with daemons allies. Something like:

Fateweaver
Horrors
Flamers
Screamers
Any CSM tzeentch hq
Tzeentch havocs
Tzeentch CSM
Add in some cultists, spawn, bikes, or daemon engines for taste

Cjc1223 wrote:
Here's where it gets amazing. Mark of tzeentch adds +1 to the models inv save, so all of your tzeentch models will be getting 3++ saves on top of this bad boy! Combine this with fate weaver and this can rival a tally build

Adds it to the model's save. Not the skyshield's save.
They don't stack, and if they do I give up on this edition <_<

 FifteenHours wrote:

 Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

I would go with a pair of Heralds on discs with Bolt and Breath of Chaos, two units of Horrors with Bolt and Changeling and a unit of Screamers, and potentially a DP or Flamers. All those options provide anti-armor options and/or are all around good choices for the points. It would also look sweet on the table with a Thousand Sons force.

Fateweaver won't work on CSM units, but a Lord of Change could be worthwile in higher point games.

Actually starting to warm to the idea of warpsmiths. No servo arm powerfists, just a melta and a flamer. But 4+ repair is cool, and I can't see any reasoning why I need LoS to my target to curse it- just be within 18"... Your aegis defence line becomes 5+ instead of 4+... hmmmmmm....

On the subject of silly rules- Dark apostles can take Veterans of the Long War...for free...





....................ummmmmmmmmmmm? "they might NOT want free hatred vs space marines!"...do whot?

Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

 Jihallah wrote:
Actually starting to warm to the idea of warpsmiths. No servo arm powerfists, just a melta and a flamer. But 4+ repair is cool, and I can't see any reasoning why I need LoS to my target to curse it- just be within 18"... Your aegis defence line becomes 5+ instead of 4+... hmmmmmm....

On the subject of silly rules- Dark apostles can take Veterans of the Long War...for free...

....................ummmmmmmmmmmm? "they might NOT want free hatred vs space marines!"...do whot?

Warpsmiths shatter cannot target terrain purchased, no cant work on an ADL

Dark Apostles have LD 10 and Zealot, meaning they are fearless and have hatred: everything. Veterans of the long war gives them what exactly?

 Jihallah wrote:

Cjc1223 wrote:
Here's where it gets amazing. Mark of tzeentch adds +1 to the models inv save, so all of your tzeentch models will be getting 3++ saves on top of this bad boy! Combine this with fate weaver and this can rival a tally build

Adds it to the model's save. Not the skyshield's save.
They don't stack, and if they do I give up on this edition <_<

Think about it. The wording is essentially the same as stealth and shrouding so why wouldn't it apply here? We all know you can use stealth with an area cover save and jink save.

The cover save is given to the unit, just like this inv save. They are identical.

Same principles should apply.

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

This is what I mean when I say this codex feels safe and...bland. Tzeentch forbid chaos having an ability that actively messes with a marine or IG's fun, especially if it means a new model kit sells less. Now Warpquake, Divination, Vendettas and Long Fangs, those have never bene unfair to no one, no siree.

It's like after writing some books they go through them with a fine-tooth-comb and cut out anything that would gall Imperial players too much*. "Hmm, overwatch with inferno bolts will make Blood Angels cry, so out it goes. Psykers from the god of magic and fate shouldn't get Divination...let's give it to the wolfmen who hate psykers and sorcery instead. Also, I heard a Dreadknight once lost to a Daemon Prince somewhere; make sure it never happens again!"

*= Yes, I'm aware Necrons are a dot outside this curve. Chalk it up to a bump in the supply giving Matt ward abnormally pure crystal meth while writing it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cjc1223 wrote:
Alright everybody has to stop complaining about tzeentch. It is by far the best god when using daemon allies.

One thing I see being a great investment for CSM players is the sky shield landing pad. It does a few great things for us. First off, It gives us a great firing platform. Second, when unfurled it allows us to deep strike without scatter, which is VITAL for a non-gun line army. Third, if you keep the shields up, your models get a 4+ inv save.

Not saying it's not an interesting build; a friend of mine is trying something similar mostly because he likes the looks of 1KSons and Tzeentch daemons. But you're aware that Fatewever's re-roll abilit has been FAQ'd and no longer works for allies chaos marines, right?

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

D'OH! I thought i was onto something there!

 Exergy wrote:


Dark Apostles have LD 10 and Zealot, meaning they are fearless and have hatred: everything. Veterans of the long war gives them what exactly?

A warm feeling deep in their hearts I think.

Ohhh! +1 leadership!...but already LD10... do whot?

Cjc1223 wrote:
Think about it. The wording is essentially the same as stealth and shrouding so why wouldn't it apply here? We all know you can use stealth with an area cover save and jink save.

The cover save is given to the unit, just like this inv save. They are identical.

Same principles should apply.

Sad but true. Sigh.

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

 Sephyr wrote:

 AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

This is what I mean when I say this codex feels safe and...bland. Tzeentch forbid chaos having an ability that actively messes with a marine or IG's fun, especially if it means a new model kit sells less. Now Warpquake, Divination, Vendettas and Long Fangs, those have never bene unfair to no one, no siree.

It's like after writing some books they go through them with a fine-tooth-comb and cut out anything that would gall Imperial players too much*. "Hmm, overwatch with inferno bolts will make Blood Angels cry, so out it goes. Psykers from the god of magic and fate shouldn't get Divination...let's give it to the wolfmen who hate psykers and sorcery instead. Also, I heard a Dreadknight once lost to a Daemon Prince somewhere; make sure it never happens again!"

HAHAHAHAHA OMG! Yeah Iron Warriors are really good at tearing down defenses. Like trees and shrubs. But not actual fortifications that were, you know, put there on purpose to protect something. OMG this is rich. You lay siege very well... like geisha!

Everything should become very clear real soon. If Codex: Dark Angels hits and it's another Matt Ward facemelter and not a bland milquetoast Codex: Weaksauce I'm calling shenanigans. I got my broom.

Dark apostle probably has it in case you wanted your rules to reflect the fluff of your characters more.

Axe I have a feeling will get FAQed to be allowed on daemon princes of khorne, hence the rage.

Also tried zombies tonight and not being able to run really put a cramp on my style. I am going to use a regular squad as an escort for typhus, since he gives them fearless anyway. Losing out on the FNP but can get three flamers in the squad as well as GTG if need be after typhus leaves. Found that having a rhino man a quad gun is quite useful. Getting that 4+ all the time. Facing tau with Eldrad support(Still cant beat it) I saw how helpful the heldrake would be after I used to torrent flamer to great success. Thinking two of those combined with those vector strikes would really put a dent in any armies ground forces. Outside of the croissant army I think a quad gun with some good area coverage with cultists will really make it not as difficult to deal with lots of fliers.