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 Leth wrote:
The smash rule says that models with this rule regardless of smashing or not, strike at AP2(unless their weapon is Ap1)

I am confused when you say "Regardless of smashing or not" I may be being super think headed about this but i still dont get it. Regardless or not means that any of their attacks are AP 2 b/c they have the smash rule or all MC have AP 2??

So, aside from people having lots of opinions on daemon princes, are there any on noise marines???

 Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:

 Leth wrote:
The smash rule says that models with this rule regardless of smashing or not, strike at AP2(unless their weapon is Ap1)

I am confused when you say "Regardless of smashing or not" I may be being super think headed about this but i still dont get it. Regardless or not means that any of their attacks are AP 2 b/c they have the smash rule or all MC have AP 2??

The smash rule makes all MC's attacks AP 2, whether they are physically using the type of attack granted by the Smash Rule, or if they are using something else (ala the Black Mace).

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Mr. Balloon Hands wrote:

 Leth wrote:
The smash rule says that models with this rule regardless of smashing or not, strike at AP2(unless their weapon is Ap1)

I am confused when you say "Regardless of smashing or not" I may be being super think headed about this but i still dont get it. Regardless or not means that any of their attacks are AP 2 b/c they have the smash rule or all MC have AP 2??

The smash rule makes all MC's attacks AP 2, whether they are physically using the type of attack granted by the Smash Rule, or if they are using something else (ala the Black Mace).

Wow. Thats actually really really awesome. I really really appreciate both of your responses. I think there are a few people out there that dont fully understand that as I have seen a couple go back and forth on if DP attacks were AP2. Big ups to both you duders. DP having any Melee attacks AP2 makes them pretty awesome IMHO.


100
-Lando

 Orkaswampa wrote:
So, aside from people having lots of opinions on daemon princes, are there any on noise marines???

They are awesome, though not an auto-take as they fulfil a role that so many other units also do effectively; anti-horde. Paired with a Sorcerer they can step it up a notch to be a decent anti-MEQ unit though.

Actually, Noise Marines got a role. With sonic blasters they can take on units that benefit from cover, like Pathfinders, units with lower armour saves (behind an ADL). I plan to integrate a 10 men unit in a Rhino to bring the squad into position (through the center). It is clear that this unit needs to be backed up by further advancing units (target saturation) and at least one unit for counter-strike.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Actually, Noise Marines got a role. With sonic blasters they can take on units that benefit from cover, like Pathfinders, units with lower armour saves (behind an ADL). I plan to integrate a 10 men unit in a Rhino to bring the squad into position (through the center). It is clear that this unit needs to be backed up by further advancing units (target saturation) and at least one unit for counter-strike.

Yes, and counters to such units are what I class as anti-horde, because all horde units also rely on cover to stay alive. Noise Marines are competing with Heldrakes, HQs and Berserkers for this role, with the Heldrake taking a clear lead.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Actually, Noise Marines got a role. With sonic blasters they can take on units that benefit from cover, like Pathfinders, units with lower armour saves (behind an ADL). I plan to integrate a 10 men unit in a Rhino to bring the squad into position (through the center). It is clear that this unit needs to be backed up by further advancing units (target saturation) and at least one unit for counter-strike.

Yes, and counters to such units are what I class as anti-horde, because all horde units also rely on cover to stay alive. Noise Marines are competing with Heldrakes, HQs and Berserkers for this role, with the Heldrake taking a clear lead.

but with the proper mark, NM are scoring....

The helldrake is str6 and ap3. It can be used to clear out death company and any marine that clumps up. Using it on pathfinders is grand, but kind of overkill.

 Exergy wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Actually, Noise Marines got a role. With sonic blasters they can take on units that benefit from cover, like Pathfinders, units with lower armour saves (behind an ADL). I plan to integrate a 10 men unit in a Rhino to bring the squad into position (through the center). It is clear that this unit needs to be backed up by further advancing units (target saturation) and at least one unit for counter-strike.

Yes, and counters to such units are what I class as anti-horde, because all horde units also rely on cover to stay alive. Noise Marines are competing with Heldrakes, HQs and Berserkers for this role, with the Heldrake taking a clear lead.

but with the proper mark, NM are scoring....

The helldrake is str6 and ap3. It can be used to clear out death company and any marine that clumps up. Using it on pathfinders is grand, but kind of overkill.

Well, I play EC and nothing else, and so NM are mandatory. A Helldrake can take on targets the NM will not be able to take on due to their lack of mobility (Rhinos only).

I think the hades is important for the helldrake because it is the highest strength chaos have available against flyers and a S7 vector strike won't do much against an AV12 valkyrie or raven :( I've been thinking of a slaanesh scissor tactic that might work.
Term Sorc (psych to buff sonic from slaa table) and 3 Terms on the left, and the same on the right of the board (Deep strike). 2x 10 scoring noise marines in the middle. This means anything running away from terminators has to run straight into a noise marine volley. Coupled with a heldrake or two blowing things off the board is nice.
Opinions?

I agree that it would be better to take the Hades instead if you're taking NM as your troops seeing as they should be able to handle any horde and you would need at least some Anti Tank in your army.

Orkaswampa that sounds like a decent tactic but the only problem would be if your opponent rushed one side or is able to bog down your termies with crap troops.

Also what are people's opinions on taking Daemon's as allies

And am I correct in assuming that Warp Talons are only good after you've opened your dimension key, because a Termy, Warp Talon and Oblit Army would be really funny

Only issue with Noise Marines is the opponent has to walk into your range. This may or may not be a deal-breaker. It looks bad on paper, but needs some real games to tell one way or the other.

I think noise marines are kinda sucky. If I want to get someone out of cover I'm dropping my allied unit of flamers of tzeentch next to them.

MEQ in cover are just going to laugh at noise marines. They won't laugh at 5 breaths of chaos.

I think slaanesh terminators and bikers with I5 and feel no pain are awesome, but I don't like the regular noise marines. Their sonic weapons are too expensive for what they do (salvo, lol). Blastmaster is nice but you can't take it per 5 any more so its too expensive to sit it back in a fire base.

I dont know if anyone noticed this, but any unit with an infantry IC attached can infiltrate. Just give infiltrate to the character, and then he gives it to the unit. Now the only guaranteed givers of infiltrate are Huron and Ahriman, however For the second HQ you could have say an IC with a Jump pack (who still counts as infantry), attach him to a bike squad or a unit of spawn, and go nuts. Also by giving it to the IC instead of the unit you can change it up as deployment goes along(if need be)

Just some food for thought.

Also, I dont know how much 6th you have played but the ability to ignore cover is AMAZING. An two extra shots at 24 over another marine. So they can't move. Spend the first turn getting in position(if you have to, unless they are coming to you). Next turn unload.

Or even better, if you can Infiltrate them forward. 24inch problem solved. Since Huron doesn't have a mark, he can join any unit in the army. 1-2 units of Emps Children, if you want to make em troops then second slot is taken up by the lord, or just keep em as elites. Fill out the troops with cultists and chaos marines.

I am seriously considering Typhus + Huron for just that reason.

 Leth wrote:
I dont know if anyone noticed this, but any unit with an infantry IC attached can infiltrate. Just give infiltrate to the character, and then he gives it to the unit. Now the only guaranteed givers of infiltrate are Huron and Ahriman, however For the second HQ you could have say an IC with a Jump pack (who still counts as infantry), attach him to a bike squad or a unit of spawn, and go nuts. Also by giving it to the IC instead of the unit you can change it up as deployment goes along(if need be)

Just some food for thought.

Also, I dont know how much 6th you have played but the ability to ignore cover is AMAZING. An two extra shots at 24 over another marine. So they can't move. Spend the first turn getting in position(if you have to, unless they are coming to you). Next turn unload.

Or even better, if you can Infiltrate them forward. 24inch problem solved. Since Huron doesn't have a mark, he can join any unit in the army. 1-2 units of Emps Children, if you want to make em troops then second slot is taken up by the lord, or just keep em as elites. Fill out the troops with cultists and chaos marines.

I am seriously considering Typhus + Huron for just that reason.

Get Typhus First, he is a fething beast in this ed....even more so then he was last edition

 DarkKing98 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I dont know if anyone noticed this, but any unit with an infantry IC attached can infiltrate. Just give infiltrate to the character, and then he gives it to the unit. Now the only guaranteed givers of infiltrate are Huron and Ahriman, however For the second HQ you could have say an IC with a Jump pack (who still counts as infantry), attach him to a bike squad or a unit of spawn, and go nuts. Also by giving it to the IC instead of the unit you can change it up as deployment goes along(if need be)

Just some food for thought.

Also, I dont know how much 6th you have played but the ability to ignore cover is AMAZING. An two extra shots at 24 over another marine. So they can't move. Spend the first turn getting in position(if you have to, unless they are coming to you). Next turn unload.

Or even better, if you can Infiltrate them forward. 24inch problem solved. Since Huron doesn't have a mark, he can join any unit in the army. 1-2 units of Emps Children, if you want to make em troops then second slot is taken up by the lord, or just keep em as elites. Fill out the troops with cultists and chaos marines.

I am seriously considering Typhus + Huron for just that reason.

Get Typhus First, he is a fething beast in this ed....even more so then he was last edition

typhus has a sucky warlord trait. That is about all I can say that is bad about him.

 Jihallah wrote:

 DakkaHammer wrote:

 Jihallah wrote:

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

Well, it could be that both pads are yours, and your opponent is attacking your landing field and managed to take one of them. Having two fortresses facing off against each other is really hard to justify though.

Every battle I play against the crusaders of blood with my 5th company of corpse-worshipping loyalists is the one AFTER he's taken my skyshield?
...do whot?

Well it could be the other way around, and that they were both your opponent's pads.

And so you are fighting on a planet where there are a hundred landing pads spread out in a big line, and you are fighting back and forth along this line.

Also every other planet in the system has the same arrangement of landing pads.

Because this is the 41st Millennium, and there is only narrative.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Actually, Noise Marines got a role. With sonic blasters they can take on units that benefit from cover, like Pathfinders, units with lower armour saves (behind an ADL). I plan to integrate a 10 men unit in a Rhino to bring the squad into position (through the center). It is clear that this unit needs to be backed up by further advancing units (target saturation) and at least one unit for counter-strike.

Yes, and counters to such units are what I class as anti-horde, because all horde units also rely on cover to stay alive. Noise Marines are competing with Heldrakes, HQs and Berserkers for this role, with the Heldrake taking a clear lead.

Ok lets look at pathfinders-

Sitting across the board, with their 2+ cover. Anti-horde things in melee, well, have to get there. Get a flamer or two, especially a heavy one onto them, and you'll vape them- once you get there. A helldrake will certainly eat them up- on turn 2+, if there aren't any other juicy targets that beg for an AP3 flamer. Noise marines, on the other hand, can belt them around the ears from turn 1 in a manner which they would not enjoy too much. I think this is what wuestenfux meant- ranged cover-denial.

 Omegus wrote:
Only issue with Noise Marines is the opponent has to walk into your range. This may or may not be a deal-breaker. It looks bad on paper, but needs some real games to tell one way or the other.

Noise Marine's weapons are somewhat short range, but they can fire 2 shots on the move or 3 if they don't move. This gives them a 30" range essentially, on a normal size board that isn't bad. They also ignore cove, which may not seem amazing but it is. If you have a Sorcerer with MoS backing them up you can do some decent damage in shooting.

If equipped with a ccw they can also be a decent counter attack unit with their higher initiative combined with a bolt pistol/ccw for +1 attack. Essentially you move into position while firing, dig in, fire more, then if they get you into cc you get an extra attack and are probably going first.

 DakkaHammer wrote:

Well it could be the other way around, and that they were both your opponent's pads.

And so you are fighting on a planet where there are a hundred landing pads spread out in a big line, and you are fighting back and forth along this line.

Also every other planet in the system has the same arrangement of landing pads.

Because this is the 41st Millennium, and there is only narrative.

I lolled

 l0k1 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Only issue with Noise Marines is the opponent has to walk into your range. This may or may not be a deal-breaker. It looks bad on paper, but needs some real games to tell one way or the other.

Noise Marine's weapons are somewhat short range, but they can fire 2 shots on the move or 3 if they don't move. This gives them a 30" range essentially, on a normal size board that isn't bad. They also ignore cove, which may not seem amazing but it is. If you have a Sorcerer with MoS backing them up you can do some decent damage in shooting.

If equipped with a ccw they can also be a decent counter attack unit with their higher initiative combined with a bolt pistol/ccw for +1 attack. Essentially you move into position while firing, dig in, fire more, then if they get you into cc you get an extra attack and are probably going first.

Salvo is at half range, so moving noise marines have 5th edition bolters that ignore cover.

Also, 21 points per model (22 with votlw) is steep.

By the way, what's the consensus on blastmasters? Some seem to interpret the language as allowing one at any unit size, and another at 11+?

I might have read salvo incorrectly, been awhile since I read the rule. Still ignoring cover is nice.

 Exergy wrote:

 DarkKing98 wrote:

 Leth wrote:
I dont know if anyone noticed this, but any unit with an infantry IC attached can infiltrate. Just give infiltrate to the character, and then he gives it to the unit. Now the only guaranteed givers of infiltrate are Huron and Ahriman, however For the second HQ you could have say an IC with a Jump pack (who still counts as infantry), attach him to a bike squad or a unit of spawn, and go nuts. Also by giving it to the IC instead of the unit you can change it up as deployment goes along(if need be)

Just some food for thought.

Also, I dont know how much 6th you have played but the ability to ignore cover is AMAZING. An two extra shots at 24 over another marine. So they can't move. Spend the first turn getting in position(if you have to, unless they are coming to you). Next turn unload.

Or even better, if you can Infiltrate them forward. 24inch problem solved. Since Huron doesn't have a mark, he can join any unit in the army. 1-2 units of Emps Children, if you want to make em troops then second slot is taken up by the lord, or just keep em as elites. Fill out the troops with cultists and chaos marines.

I am seriously considering Typhus + Huron for just that reason.

Get Typhus First, he is a fething beast in this ed....even more so then he was last edition

typhus has a sucky warlord trait. That is about all I can say that is bad about him.

Ah but that is not a huge deal really, his other positives outweigh that one negative.

I can't wait to get him and a few other new models plus Codex, I'm thinking of running a Khorne and Nurgle army

Id like to hear thoughts on whether or not Rhinos are auto includes anymore. With certain units I can see the being necessary, but with units like Berzerkers it seems like they are starting to be avoided.

I understand people are not happy with the new codex but I thinnk it rocks.
think about it and simple champion now having a chance to be a DP, come on whats not to love there.
the new units could be better but considering what we had to begin with I'm quite impressed. overall I think this codex is muc better than the last. pefect? no by a long shot but someone tell me a codex that is.
thats my two cents worth

 Omegus wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Only issue with Noise Marines is the opponent has to walk into your range. This may or may not be a deal-breaker. It looks bad on paper, but needs some real games to tell one way or the other.

Noise Marine's weapons are somewhat short range, but they can fire 2 shots on the move or 3 if they don't move. This gives them a 30" range essentially, on a normal size board that isn't bad. They also ignore cove, which may not seem amazing but it is. If you have a Sorcerer with MoS backing them up you can do some decent damage in shooting.

If equipped with a ccw they can also be a decent counter attack unit with their higher initiative combined with a bolt pistol/ccw for +1 attack. Essentially you move into position while firing, dig in, fire more, then if they get you into cc you get an extra attack and are probably going first.

Salvo is at half range, so moving noise marines have 5th edition bolters that ignore cover.

Also, 21 points per model (22 with votlw) is steep.

By the way, what's the consensus on blastmasters? Some seem to interpret the language as allowing one at any unit size, and another at 11+?

umm noise marines are 17 points per model. 18 with ccw and 19 with ccw and VotlW

We're talking about sonic weaponry, so you gotta add 3 points per blaster.

 Omegus wrote:
We're talking about sonic weaponry, so you gotta add 3 points per blaster.

17+3=20 ya? I'm going off exergy's pricing, since no codex in front of me and too new to remember yet.

20p marines that score and fire cover ignoring rounds is pretty OK in my book, except for needing a slaaneshi lord to unlock it (not complaining on slaaneshi lords, just I might want plague-O's as troops too/instead)
I think a small upside is you can take a cheap lord with a mark to unlock cult troops. Make him a super sarge, not bothering with fancy gear, as the base cost is pretty cheap.

+1 for a close combat weapon.

Does our backfield fire support squad really need it? It would be nice, but we can save points here