CSM 6th Codex: Unit Analysis

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**Jihallah**

Leth wrote:
Dark apostle probably has it in case you wanted your rules to reflect the fluff of your characters more.

Axe I have a feeling will get FAQed to be allowed on daemon princes of khorne, hence the rage.

What do you mean FAQ'ed? I see nothing to stop daemon princes having the axe.
It is an artefact
the DP can take artefacts
...why do we need a faq?

**Humblesteve**

Jihallah wrote:
Leth wrote:
Dark apostle probably has it in case you wanted your rules to reflect the fluff of your characters more.

Axe I have a feeling will get FAQed to be allowed on daemon princes of khorne, hence the rage.

What do you mean FAQ'ed? I see nothing to stop daemon princes having the axe.
It is an artefact
the DP can take artefacts
...why do we need a faq?

A FAQ for the whole "DPs don't have marks, so they can't take the mark specific gear" thing...

**Jihallah**

I can use... to make it look like people have missed something obvious...
But I'm choosing not to be a passive donkey-cave since it's a new 'dex and mistakes are expected to be made

Well that just sucks. I can't believe a Daemon of khorne doesn't have a mark of khorne (double you tea eff mate >< ). I can't believe there's not spartan prince either! They got rid of the best kind of DP!

Please to be faq'd asap ><

**Crimson**

Exergy wrote:

so a chosen is 18 points, a terminator is 31 points
the terminator comes with a power weapon, a chosen with a power weapon costs 33 points. but even worse, the terminator comes with a combi bolter and a 2+/5+.

chosen with a power fist is 43 points, a terminator with a power fist is 38 points
chosen with a lightning claw is 33 points, a terminator with a lightning claw is 38 points
chosen with a pair of lightning claws is 48 points, a terminator with a pair of claws is 38 points.....

Ouch.

Somehow these sort of internal balance issues bother me more than balance issues when comparing to some other codex. I want to choose units I like, and these sorts of wacky points costs punish me for it.

I think the Chosen are nicest unit in this codex, and I really want to have a bunch of them with a Mark of Khorne and poweraxes. Seeing that comparison made me a bit less confident about that plan... Oh well, it would not be a first time I take unit that is cool but overpriced.

**Godless-Mimicry**

I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

**Jihallah**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

Before their special spam was helped by infiltrate, and It would be awesome to infiltrate special weapon chosen troops, but Abbadabadoo is so obsessed with killing space marines that using tactics, especially against non marines, is a no no...le sigh

**Crimson**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

I never had a Chaos army, I have no clue what a role of any unit used to be. You see them as elite tactical marines that happen to have close combat weapons; I see them as elite assault marines that happen to have bolters.

And I want Khornate warriors with insane amount of attacks and poweraxes, damn it! Berzerkers can't deliver, so the Chosen have to do it, even if it is overpriced. Besides, it is not like their two attacks make them shoot any better, might as well take full use of it and get them into mêlée.

**Godless-Mimicry**

Crimson wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:
I wouldn't be too crushed by it; Chosen may have gotten an extra attack, but that doesn't mean their role has changed to close combat specialists. They are still better at doing the special weapon SPAM thing, though sadly unless you are running Abaddon or have run out of Heavy slots, Havocs do it for cheaper.

I never had a Chaos army, I have no clue what a role of any unit used to be. You see them as elite tactical marines that happen to have close combat weapons; I see them as elite assault marines that happen to have bolters.

And I want Khornate warriors with insane amount of attacks and poweraxes, damn it! Berzerkers can't deliver, so the Chosen have to do it, even if it is overpriced. Besides, it is not like their two attacks make them shoot any better, might as well take full use of it and get them into mêlée.

Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

**Sasori**

I really wanted Warptalons to be good, I really really did. I'll still use them in my Casual lists, but damn talk about wasted potential.

One one hand though, Terminators seem pretty damn good, for what you get, at 31 points. Combi-melta, and Combi-Plasma are cheap.

I like the Warpsmith, with 5A base, he's pretty neat. Throw on an Aura of Dark Glory, and MoN, and he can be pretty decent in combat.

It's going to take a lot of testing, to see if the 5++, Daemonforge, and IWND work out well in play. On Paper, it seems decent, but will really need some games.

**Crimson**

Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

**CommissarGeneral**

Crimson wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

Regular CSM may not have as many attacks as Bezerkers and Chosen, but I found that they can fill the space abit better and for cheaper and still have FC, C-A and Rage

they worked well for me as a multi-use squad

**Exergy**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Sephyr wrote:
AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

This is what I mean when I say this codex feels safe and...bland. Tzeentch forbid chaos having an ability that actively messes with a marine or IG's fun, especially if it means a new model kit sells less. Now Warpquake, Divination, Vendettas and Long Fangs, those have never bene unfair to no one, no siree.

It's like after writing some books they go through them with a fine-tooth-comb and cut out anything that would gall Imperial players too much*. "Hmm, overwatch with inferno bolts will make Blood Angels cry, so out it goes. Psykers from the god of magic and fate shouldn't get Divination...let's give it to the wolfmen who hate psykers and sorcery instead. Also, I heard a Dreadknight once lost to a Daemon Prince somewhere; make sure it never happens again!"

HAHAHAHAHA OMG! Yeah Iron Warriors are really good at tearing down defenses. Like trees and shrubs. But not actual fortifications that were, you know, put there on purpose to protect something. OMG this is rich. You lay siege very well... like geisha!

Everything should become very clear real soon. If Codex: Dark Angels hits and it's another Matt Ward facemelter and not a bland milquetoast Codex: Weaksauce I'm calling shenanigans. I got my broom.

I got so excited until I realized shatter has no useful targets.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jihallah wrote:
AresX8 wrote:
Warpsmiths can't shatter Defence Line cover. Shatter Defences specifically says "(this may not be one that he has purchased as part of his army)..."

D'OH! I thought i was onto something there!

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

at least the skyshield landing pad could possibly be a deep strikeable vehicle itself. the fortress of redemption and junk is just crazy.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Crimson wrote:
Exergy wrote:

so a chosen is 18 points, a terminator is 31 points
the terminator comes with a power weapon, a chosen with a power weapon costs 33 points. but even worse, the terminator comes with a combi bolter and a 2+/5+.

chosen with a power fist is 43 points, a terminator with a power fist is 38 points
chosen with a lightning claw is 33 points, a terminator with a lightning claw is 38 points
chosen with a pair of lightning claws is 48 points, a terminator with a pair of claws is 38 points.....

Ouch.

Somehow these sort of internal balance issues bother me more than balance issues when comparing to some other codex. I want to choose units I like, and these sorts of wacky points costs punish me for it.

I think the Chosen are nicest unit in this codex, and I really want to have a bunch of them with a Mark of Khorne and poweraxes. Seeing that comparison made me a bit less confident about that plan... Oh well, it would not be a first time I take unit that is cool but overpriced.

yeah.... just kind of annoying.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sasori wrote:
I really wanted Warptalons to be good, I really really did. I'll still use them in my Casual lists, but damn talk about wasted potential.

I like the Warpsmith, with 5A base, he's pretty neat. Throw on an Aura of Dark Glory, and MoN, and he can be pretty decent in combat.

Warptalons would have been so easy, just give them grenades and less scatter. done, suddenly useful but no OP option.

Warpsmiths need a weapon right? and even then they are 2W and WS 4 init 4.

**DakkaHammer**

Jihallah wrote:

40k warfare is about what terrain you purchase. In the grim dark future of the 41'st millennium... There are defence lines and landing pads everywhere. agri field? MUST HAVE SKYSHIELD
Rocky barren asteroid? how convenient My skyshield pad is there!

Right next to my opponents, conveniently enough! what are the odds?
Purchasable terrain sucks.

Well, it could be that both pads are yours, and your opponent is attacking your landing field and managed to take one of them. Having two fortresses facing off against each other is really hard to justify though.

**Sephyr**

CommissarGeneral wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

Regular CSM may not have as many attacks as Bezerkers and Chosen, but I found that they can fill the space abit better and for cheaper and still have FC, C-A and Rage

they worked well for me as a multi-use squad

I've been considering this as well. They actually have respectable firepower, can crack vehicles or plasma MCs, which seem to make up for the lack of that extra attack and FC. Not beinf fearless, they can also hunker down in area terrain with a 3+ cover save whenyou want to outlast some heavy shooting.

That said, I'll still keep a unit of zerkers in my list, mostly because I already painted them and Kharn is still fun.

**Rochronos**

Explain to me how a DP can't take a mark! That is absurd!

**Sasori**

Warpsmiths need a weapon right? and even then they are 2W and WS 4 init 4.

They come standard with a Power Axe, and Bolt pistol. The Mechatendrils also allow you to fire up to two weapons, and comes with a Meltagun and flamer.

**FifteenHours**

Starfarer wrote:
FifteenHours wrote:
Starfarer wrote:

I hope the 1k Sons players find some viable builds, perhaps with Daemon Allies, but I feel like everything else seems really good.

I am wondering what builds can be made with Thousand Sons with tzeentch only Daemon allies, or vice versa, as i've wanted to start both for ages now...Hopefully new plastic models with rubric marines will appear.

I am thinking Thousand sons with 4++ and 3+ will be good at planting on objectives, so x5 of them for troops slots would probably be a good idea, then use Daemons as allies, Fateweaver HQ could work very well in tangent with them...

I would go with a pair of Heralds on discs with Bolt and Breath of Chaos, two units of Horrors with Bolt and Changeling and a unit of Screamers, and potentially a DP or Flamers. All those options provide anti-armor options and/or are all around good choices for the points.

Fateweaver won't work on CSM units, but a Lord of Change could be worthwile in higher point games.

That is sad that Fateweaver wont work.

It would also look sweet on the table with a Thousand Sons force.

This is what attracted me to this in the first place! They would just look really really good. I am not so bothered about competitiveness, as long as it's semi-competitive and fun to play I am happy tbh.

**Orkaswampa**

What's everyones opinion on Noise Marines? I see them as a pretty good objective holder currently with pretty good damage output

**Benamint**

I think for goofing around I am going to run a cultist horde with a slight Nurgle tinge (think Siege of Vracks 3) and allied IG. Pretty much like a heretical preacher turned the city. Lots of IG and cultists/zombies with a small core of Typhus and Plaguemarines.

For competitive I am gonna be running an Eppi list with everything possible MoN and bikers. If there is room maybe Typhus and zombie cultist for an objective sitter.

I'll play with other combos too, but off the top of my head this is what I come up with.

**CommissarGeneral**

Sephyr wrote:
CommissarGeneral wrote:
Crimson wrote:
Godless-Mimicry wrote:

Bikes with Mark of Khorne are better CC troops than Berserkers, and cheaper than Chosen CC troops. Think about them.

Unfortunately they do not fill the same role aesthetically.

Regular CSM may not have as many attacks as Bezerkers and Chosen, but I found that they can fill the space abit better and for cheaper and still have FC, C-A and Rage

they worked well for me as a multi-use squad

I've been considering this as well. They actually have respectable firepower, can crack vehicles or plasma MCs, which seem to make up for the lack of that extra attack and FC. Not beinf fearless, they can also hunker down in area terrain with a 3+ cover save whenyou want to outlast some heavy shooting.

That said, I'll still keep a unit of zerkers in my list, mostly because I already painted them and Kharn is still fun.

Kharn is always a must for a Khorne army

**Tomb King**

Typhus being only toughness 5 still is a real buzz kill. Yay for instant gibbing him with artillery still. :( Plague marines are just as tough as the herald of nurgle...

For all the marks it doesnt say they are included in the profile so it could be argued that he is toughness 6 etc... really nothing stopping that argument it will need faq'd because he is toughness 5.

**Lucre**

I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

I guess they can't take on tanks in one turn these days... I suppose that makes their cost feel a little silly. I guess they'd also be able to instakill meq that way too. I wonder what 35 points is worth.

**Attomsk**

Tomb King wrote:
Typhus being only toughness 5 still is a real buzz kill. Yay for instant gibbing him with artillery still. :( Plague marines are just as tough as the herald of nurgle...

For all the marks it doesnt say they are included in the profile so it could be argued that he is toughness 6 etc... really nothing stopping that argument it will need faq'd because he is toughness 5.

No, it does state that on characters if a mark is listed it is included in their profile.

**Tomb King**

Attomsk wrote:
Tomb King wrote:
Typhus being only toughness 5 still is a real buzz kill. Yay for instant gibbing him with artillery still. :( Plague marines are just as tough as the herald of nurgle...

For all the marks it doesnt say they are included in the profile so it could be argued that he is toughness 6 etc... really nothing stopping that argument it will need faq'd because he is toughness 5.

No, it does state that on characters if a mark is listed it is included in their profile.

what page does it state that? It does state, "when a mark of chaos is listed in a unit's special rules, its effects will have already been taken into acount in its profile, where applicable." So since typhus is a unit with it listed in his special rules it could be considered that it is already included.

Now the fun one. Abbadon doesnt have the marks listed in his special rules but then it states he gets all marks below all that. So RAW he gets an extra boost for all of the marks.

Note: Just playing devils advocate.

As for warp talons not having grenades name anything that has the daemon special rule and has grenades...

**whembly**

Lucre wrote:
I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

I guess they can't take on tanks in one turn these days... I suppose that makes their cost feel a little silly. I guess they'd also be able to instakill meq that way too. I wonder what 35 points is worth.

I've been looking at a DP with that Black Mace... that weapon is drool worthy now...

(it'll be AP2)

**Crimson**

Lucre wrote:
I don't quite understand why folks think DP's need an angry axe. Aren't they scary enough already?

The mace is probably a better choice for the prince, but it is not about that. If he could have the axe then there would at least be some reason for the axe to give rage to its wielder.

**Lucre**

I'm sorta happy with guys that can hide in squads and hit like MCs do. Making me wish chaos could field more ICs. 3 hqs with high initiative ap2. But I guess with all the wound allocations tricks, 3++ and fnp in the world, even that isn't particularly exciting.

**wearelegion**

my biggest gripe is how the dp can never get better than a 5+ invuln now, yeah tzeentch can reroll 1s which is kind of perfect for them, but the loss of eternal warrior still leaves you a high chance of getting vaporized, and the higher invlun makes it much easier to be wittled down by everything else.

they should amend aura of dark glory to increase increase the + invuln, or let the dp take sigil of corruption.

**Tomb King**

If you look at the daemon prince art... he is equipped with a bolt pistol to show how bad ass he is....

**Exergy**

Benamint wrote:
I think for goofing around I am going to run a cultist horde with a slight Nurgle tinge (think Siege of Vracks 3) and allied IG. Pretty much like a heretical preacher turned the city. Lots of IG and cultists/zombies with a small core of Typhus and Plaguemarines.

For competitive I am gonna be running an Eppi list with everything possible MoN and bikers. If there is room maybe Typhus and zombie cultist for an objective sitter.

I'll play with other combos too, but off the top of my head this is what I come up with.

I am doing similar for fun goofing. Wanted more out of cultists but instead will have to use IG for everything other than close combat machines.