lord_blackfang wrote: By this logic, $40 for one pre-painted 28mm Predator and Arnie would be cheap, as it is a full game
If it comes with enough terrain to fill up a 6x4 table with dense jungle and multiple traps, then sure $40 would be cheap. That's what it means to be a full game with a ground-based skirmish.
Try selling that to all the guys dressed up like Colonial Marines at conventions. They'll pay hundreds for armor and pulse rifles, but I doubt they'll find $40 for two minis and a bunch of dumpster filling.
judgedoug wrote: Alien and Aliens are widely regarded as two of the best films in their genres (horror, and action, respectively).
Everyone recognizes a Geiger Alien. Like, everyone.
I see many people buying up Preds and Ailens... and here's me wanting all my marines with pulse rifles... Lets hope I can recreate my best AvP Online match where everyone was a lvl 24 -43 pred and there was me as a marine, who came top of the leader board on deathmatch at the end of the match, all because I switched off my flashlight
judgedoug wrote: Alien and Aliens are widely regarded as two of the best films in their genres (horror, and action, respectively).
Everyone recognizes a Geiger Alien. Like, everyone.
judgedoug wrote: Stan Winston and James Cameron designed the Queen. And Cameron and Syd Mead designed pretty much all the Colonial Marine stuff.
But as a variant of the Giger Alien. And they didn't design all the aliens, facehuggers and alien eggs. Nor were the new designs by Giger for the movie Alien 3 credited to Giger. Nor anything in the movie Alien resurrection. And what would the Alien movies be without Giger's design?
I really hope one of the stipulations of getting the license is that they have to hire someone competent to create the webpage.. No offence to Prodos but warzonegame.com is a terrible mess.
Ah gotcha. Yes, I am sincerely hoping they are very cheap as well (because then I'll buy more!! and moree!!!! a whole company of USCM?! why not?! a regiment, battalion, division!!!), and the preview shots are showing the quality. If Prodos can pull a good economy of scale situation here and be able to manufacture a ton of these at a cheap cost, I can't imagine any sci fi fan not pledging at least a few bucks for some cool figs (especially if Prodos does a low level cheap entry that has an alien, a predator and a colonial marine, as a set, maybe each on a special base that matches - hive, jungle, LV-426 flooring).
If this product can appeal to the average Aliens fan, it could be worth millions. I really like the idea of a "sampler set" that gets the figures into lots of hands for cheap. Hell, market it right, and you can convince many fans that they never have to use the thimble again in monopoly, or basic chess sets, or ...Risk tokens. Make the rules free, too, and many people with a sampler pack (that they bought because, y'know, Aliens) might try their hand at it just to try out...
Now, that might seem a bit too ambitious, but even trying to broaden the appeal like that will do Prodos a lot better than making Infinity with licensed models.
I actually have no worries about it being a success... I'm worried that it'll be too big of a success for a smallish company like Prodos to handle. If they make 5 million bucks there's no way they'll be hand-casting 5 million models. Welcome to partnership! Howsabout Wargames Factory? They're expanding exponenentially, now that they're handling Kingdom Death (and a half dozen other companies) and have now a proven high quality and detail level.
Really impressed by that detail. Looks like someone was studying screen grabs of the Smart Gun.
Prodos is in the UK, yes? Well there's the whole chapter of United Kingdom Colonial Marines re-enactors that they could model some screen-used or screen-accurate props from.
judgedoug wrote: Stan Winston and James Cameron designed the Queen. And Cameron and Syd Mead designed pretty much all the Colonial Marine stuff.
But as a variant of the Giger Alien. And they didn't design all the aliens, facehuggers and alien eggs. Nor were the new designs by Giger for the movie Alien 3 credited to Giger. Nor anything in the movie Alien resurrection. And what would the Alien movies be without Giger's design?
Right... I don't disagree with you. My initial post said that everyone recognizes the Giger Alien. You said he didn't design the Queen, so I added who did.
But the point is that the Giger Alien is one of the most iconic monsters in film, ever.
My Aliens Technical Manual seems to be MIA (moving twice in the last 9 months will do that), but a little google and some quick napkin math indicate the Dropship would be around 16 inches long.
I'm not terribly familiar with Warhammer, but a cursory googling indicates that this would be comparable to some pretty hefty models. It's only an assumption, but based on the novels, movies and comics I've read, it feels more like a skirmish level game rather than one of larger warfare, which generally means a smaller combat area.
Basically, I could see some form of outline 'terrain' piece for the APC, but the dropship would... a hell of a thing.
Forar wrote: At 28mm scale, both would be... pretty big.
My Aliens Technical Manual seems to be MIA (moving twice in the last 9 months will do that), but a little google and some quick napkin math indicate the Dropship would be around 16 inches long.
I'm not terribly familiar with Warhammer, but a cursory googling indicates that this would be comparable to some pretty hefty models. It's only an assumption, but based on the novels, movies and comics I've read, it feels more like a skirmish level game rather than one of larger warfare, which generally means a smaller combat area.
Basically, I could see some form of outline 'terrain' piece for the APC, but the dropship would... a hell of a thing.
There's already a couple of companies making really nice versions of the alien's APC
There are a couple other companies doing similar models on a smaller and sporadically avialble scale.
You're right about the dropship though. There was a model kit avaialble in the past, but IIRC it was 1/72 and still quite large. However, if there is significant interest (and there might well be for this property) I wouldn't be surprised if a dropship made an appeance. Heck, the Grizzly (albeit a smaller version) made it into the Warzone KS.
Hmmm how easy/hard is it to get the Khurasan stuff in the UK anyway? Had my eye on that APC for awhile, just import always seemed like too much hassle for a single kit.
doc1234 wrote: Hmmm how easy/hard is it to get the Khurasan stuff in the UK anyway? Had my eye on that APC for awhile, just import always seemed like too much hassle for a single kit.
They'll ship anywhere if they have it in stock. I've bought alot of stuff from the UK without any hassle. I'm not sure how much more difficult it would be going the opposite way.
primalexile wrote: I am betting with AvP their hands are tied as to what they release and when.
Agreed, hence even the title of this thread and not *directly* saying anything much about the license just yet.
I would add further and say that I wish they had waited until closer to a time when they could speak about it. A couple teasers and then no information for long periods is a buzz-kill...
Hope they release some more info in the next couple days. Would like to have an idea what is going on before the Reaper KS ends.
It'd be nice to have an idea, but that may be part of why they aren't bothering.
Like releasing a movie, even a popular one, next to a "$Texas" summer blockbuster, they might just be keeping their heads down so whatever they have to say isn't lost in the roar of wallets opening and being laid at the altar of Bones.
Why bother saying anything if they weren't planning on acting on it in the near future?
It's like teasers a year before a movie is due out. "Great, you've got my interest... but why bother, you're probably going to have to get it again by the time you're ready to actually say something."
Also, their very first image says "Coming soon".
While that certainly presents some minor ambiguity, hopefully we can agree that 10+ weeks is a bit far off to be considered "soon".
Well I don't smegging know do I? I understand so very very little of this whole process. What would Foxes legal permission have to do with how many moulds can be made?
I just mean they'll have to do a kickstarter for this project or else they'll be releasing one kit of marines, one alien and one predator every 6 months. Think about how Mantic operated before their kickstarters.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I just mean they'll have to do a kickstarter for this project or else they'll be releasing one kit of marines, one alien and one predator every 6 months. Think about how Mantic operated before their kickstarters.
I think any company like Prodos that could design the model they do with the concepts of AVP, could probably get a bank loan. Especially with them being able to show how they did with the kickstarter. A bank loan would be better than a kick starter because your not giving 10% or whatever kickstarter takes right off the top, then selling at such a steep discount to the backers. You get the money, develop your project, and make money hand over fist.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Again we knew KD was going to launch a KS months before we knew when or for what (other than the typical KD coolness)
and that did very nicely
Exactly! The sky is not falling if we don't hear anything more on this for a month... might as well let the thread lie until they come in with more info.
I wonder if an official AVP tabletop license will have any effect on the various ripoffs that are currently available. Would be interesting to see the damage a real big boy like 20th Cent. Fox can do to garage hobby companies.
The rip off's really don't make that much of an issue. This is a game based around a a cool concept. If you buy into the game you buy into the figures etc.
We already have one litigation crazed gaming company, we do not need two.
Snrub wrote: Yeah that's what I thought, if Prodos games have the backing of the studios/Geiger/whoever then it's possible it may just go straight to production.
I would be extremely surprised if this were the case!
Snrub wrote: Yeah that's what I thought, if Prodos games have the backing of the studios/Geiger/whoever then it's possible it may just go straight to production.
I would be extremely surprised if this were the case!
Mostly because...why would you put up your own money, or give up percentages to investors etc. when you can get your customers to fund everything?
I'm not being cynical or sarcastic here, this sort of established property should be worth 500k at least in a well run Kickstarter.
Personally I find the property pretty boring, but it's going to sell like cocaine filled hot cakes if the quality is there (we know they can get the minis right, gameplay is up in the air a little more I would assume).
Yeah, I'm sure it varies based on the sum and a number of factors, but 10% off the top for KS and Amazon versus whatever interest the bank or another institution would charge over a year or whatever don't make it nearly as black and white. Yeah, it's a big name and they just had another solid campaign go by.
Which cuts both ways; why wouldn't they do another?
But until they have more to share, it's all academic.
This looks great. Prodos by all accounts seems to have done a great job with Warzone, and this looks to be more of the same high quality fare. They have a good sculptor, and it really shows in their final product.
The minis look great. The only suggestion I have is to include normal full bases and not ones with slots if the minis won't have tabs to put into them.
warboss wrote: include normal full bases and not ones with slots if the minis won't have tabs to put into them
I'd further suggest not to cast minis with tabs or if it is impractical to still supply full rather than slotted bases. I'd also prefer the regular (e.g., GW) rather than framed (e.g., PP) bases for this franchise.
I hope there isn't a Kickstarter and the game goes straight into production. If they've got official backing from Fox, I doubt they'll need Kickstarter as anything more than a storefront.
I can't wait to see some closer shots of the Marines!
I could not tell you how long I have waited for something like this. We've had smaller, individual efforts that are nice miniatures (the Heresy Miniatures 'Head Taker) but never such a unified collection!
Looks like they've got the scaling right, the design & variety of aliens right, and the Predator checking his wrist computer is just too cool for words..
Brother SRM wrote: I hope there isn't a Kickstarter and the game goes straight into production. If they've got official backing from Fox, I doubt they'll need Kickstarter as anything more than a storefront.
I can't wait to see some closer shots of the Marines!
I doubt it. KS is a method for the manufacturer to get 92%+ of the purchase price which for prodos games is almost full retail judging from the Warzone KS. I simply don't see them giving up that percentage cut to instead do the large initial splash via the traditional route where they instead get 40-50% of the retail price. Having someone else prefund (although I'm not sure where you're getting that info... usually you PAY the people who own the license... they don't pay YOU) doesn't somehow lessen the lure of an almost double profit from the initial release (along with the almost free marketing that a kickstarter gives you).
Alpharius wrote: That bowlegged Necron really does look silly...
Anyway, this one makes me glad (almost) that I missed out on the Warzone KS!
This makes me even happier I funded the KS for Warzone!! What happens when Aliens and Predators invade the Warzone universe? I dunno... but I will find out when my Capitol troops face down some Aliens
Have to say, a rule do not swear, but logged in and saw the Pics with the AvP and just blurted 'F**k me thats seriously cool'
Proberbly not the best time to swear while stood in middle of care home family members at.
I am amused that we're bashing GW's models and not some of Mantic's stuff
Catty asides...er...aside.. I like what I'm seeing so far. If that is the quality of the production figures then I can see both of the clubs I frequent joining in on this.
Souleater wrote: I am amused that we're bashing GW's models and not some of Mantic's stuff
Catty asides...er...aside.. I like what I'm seeing so far. If that is the quality of the production figures then I can see both of the clubs I frequent joining in on this.
its probably because mantic doesnt seem to be anywhere near as arrogant as GW.
Souleater wrote: I am amused that we're bashing GW's models and not some of Mantic's stuff
Catty asides...er...aside.. I like what I'm seeing so far. If that is the quality of the production figures then I can see both of the clubs I frequent joining in on this.
its probably because mantic doesnt seem to be anywhere near as arrogant as GW.
Before the KOWKS, I'd have agreed with you. The more common sense reason is that the AVP figs are compared with a GW fig in the picture. I'm sure if they put a gorilla hands battle nun from KOW in there instead of a necron that the comparison would be even less favorable. There is no reason though for two middle tier UK minis manufacturers to start scratching at each other in something so simple as a scale comparison. The necron is most likely there simply because most people would end up substituting AVP figs into 40k armies compared with Mantic offerings.
MajorTom11 wrote: They didn't really pay much attention to Xeno foot design... looks more like Disney Gargoyles feet... But I am a psychotic Aliens fan so....
If you look in the OP and through the thread, there've already been a few colonial marine teasers.
And on top of that, there's this:
Cheers Alpharius
Was hoping for sqwishable civvies too, like from AVP2.
Will need to get the rules & see if I can intro some Hasselfree zombie fighter minis.
Those preds look awesome - the best I've seen.
Need this game!!
Really want to start this game now (and kinda hope it is not KS) I hope they do more marine stuff and keep them as the same pace as the preds and the Ailens..
MajorTom11 wrote: They didn't really pay much attention to Xeno foot design... looks more like Disney Gargoyles feet... But I am a psychotic Aliens fan so....
...Oh god. This is going to be worse than your X-Wing addiction, isn't it?
MajorTom11 wrote: They didn't really pay much attention to Xeno foot design... looks more like Disney Gargoyles feet... But I am a psychotic Aliens fan so....
Souleater wrote: I am amused that we're bashing GW's models and not some of Mantic's stuff
its probably because mantic doesnt seem to be anywhere near as arrogant as GW.
Before the KOWKS, I'd have agreed with you. The more common sense reason is that the AVP figs are compared with a GW fig in the picture. I'm sure if they put a gorilla hands
I hope this is not a kickstarter and makes general release. If its a KS i`ll need to wait before its officially out as i`d rather keep my money guaranteed than taking a chance
I hope it is a KS as with the funds they raise from it they can make the box set better, fund more tooling for more miniatures, more of a deal for backers which will also make people on the fence buy in and take the financial responsibility away from them by getting the buyers to vote with there wallets!
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: Just got my Warzone minis in, to read about my opinions on the Prodos resin/casting etc I've reviewed them in the revelant thread
Wow those look good! I have a 100+ Cadian infantry I want to trade in now. Of course, the aliens draw my attention as I eagerly wait for the new nids codex. Lol
MajorTom11 wrote: They didn't really pay much attention to Xeno foot design... looks more like Disney Gargoyles feet... But I am a psychotic Aliens fan so....
...Oh god. This is going to be worse than your X-Wing addiction, isn't it?
This is (apparently) what the alien foot should look like
and this is the leg (and foot) of the Alien Queen from Aliens
Now that I see the Alien sculpts are based off the terri-bad Alien 4 and AVP designs, I've really got not interest in picking this up. The Xenomorph's look terrible, nothing compared to the designs of Giger or Cameron.
God if they'd made these in 28mm form I'd of sold my kidneys to fund the Kickstarter.
But I wonder if we're reaching the point where the limiting factor in miniature design, but the ability of the medium to carry the details we're now able to load up on these minis now that they're being designed by computer.
I really want to see how these minis look close up. They are very good as they are, but the test to see whether they are phenomenal or just "very good" will be how well final production pieces carry the ultra-fine details it looks like they're trying to put on these. I can easily imagine the Predators' mesh clothing to basically disappear.
Not that even if they do find a way to make the detail carry through to the final product, most of us will be able to paint it....
Now that I see the Alien sculpts are based off the terri-bad Alien 4 and AVP designs, I've really got not interest in picking this up. The Xenomorph's look terrible, nothing compared to the designs of Giger or Cameron.
God if they'd made these in 28mm form I'd of sold my kidneys to fund the Kickstarter.
I some what agree. The predators and marines are great but the aliens leave a little bit to desire. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they release aliens spanning all the movies.
They are labelled infant warrior (the standing xenomorph) which would explain the smooth head and stalker which is a form of runner xenomorph they will probably reveal adult warriors which have the ridged heads (the ridges develop later as they age) later on I,d say there will be a few classes of xenomorph in this.
Imposter101 wrote:My first thoughts when I saw this were;
"OH SWEET JESUS YES OH GAK YES HOW UTTERLY PURE!"
Now that I see the Alien sculpts are based off the terri-bad Alien 4 and AVP designs, I've really got not interest in picking this up. The Xenomorph's look terrible, nothing compared to the designs of Giger or Cameron.
Spoiler:
God if they'd made these in 28mm form I'd of sold my kidneys to fund the Kickstarter.
Now that I see the Alien sculpts are based off the terri-bad Alien 4 and AVP designs, I've really got not interest in picking this up. The Xenomorph's look terrible, nothing compared to the designs of Giger or Cameron.
Spoiler:
God if they'd made these in 28mm form I'd of sold my kidneys to fund the Kickstarter.
I some what agree. The predators and marines are great but the aliens leave a little bit to desire. I will give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they release aliens spanning all the movies.
See, what we have here is a snap judgement based on little information. Personally, I'm quite excited by this, and really quite like what I've seen so far, but I'm certainly not so totally committed that I'll buy this regardless, neither am I "out"
DaveC wrote: They are labelled infant warrior (the standing xenomorph) which would explain the smooth head and stalker which is a form of runner xenomorph they will probably reveal adult warriors which have the ridged heads (the ridges develop later as they age) later on I,d say there will be a few classes of xenomorph in this.
DaveC wrote: They are labelled infant warrior (the standing xenomorph) which would explain the smooth head and stalker which is a form of runner xenomorph they will probably reveal adult warriors which have the ridged heads (the ridges develop later as they age) later on I,d say there will be a few classes of xenomorph in this.
I can confirm ;]
Can you confirm a Kickstarter or straight to retail?
@Alph - Typically in the original design the feet were human-like with small toes and a jutting bone spur off the back of the ankle. I would have even accepted the 4 toe version of similar symetry to the hands. The 3 toe thing has no continuity with the rest of the design... just seems like a lazy mistake.
*Caveat - Like I said, I acknowledge it's a picky comment nearly to the point of pointlessness for 95% of the audience. Like I said, I am a bit psycho for Aliens of the Giger and Winston/Cameron varieties.
All in all though I will not be picking this up, I just don't have a whole lot of passion for new stuff at the moment, my 40k love is at a very low point... x-wing was a fun and quick project and the only game I actually play, that being said I haven't played in like 3 months now or something.
Plus at the end of the day I already scratched this itch with Space Hulk
That being said, the models do look pretty nice despite my foot fetish. My concern would be lack of variety, as the unit options are pretty limited all told. However, if they scale it right, and get the core gameplay for a short, compact and simple game going they should do ok!
It's almost sad to admit that the fervor for this would have been higher if the last 5 movies in the respective universes had simply not happened lol... Like Terminator, StarWars and Matrix, I can't help but be a bit bitter about what happened after the initial classics lol!
Based on their scale shots it looks like the models are scaled more in line with a 35-37mm tall figure rather than 28mm which I think most are assuming. They seem to be more in scale with the horrorclix alien models. Personally I could care less what scale they are in as long as it's consistant within their own line.
However people who were thinking these would be suitable guard replacements are probably going to be unhappy as the scale looks to be significantly larger than GW.
I hope they skip the kickstarter and just do a proper release. I'm completely kickstarter-ed out and would just like to see a regular release product for a change.
Yeah these guys would be way too large for IG, not to mention from the looks of things this will be an Infinity esque game, where you'll probably buy 10-15 models tops and be done with it.
paulson games wrote: Based on their scale shots it looks like the models are scaled more in line with a 35-37mm tall figure rather than 28mm which I think most are assuming. They seem to be more in scale with the horrorclix alien models. Personally I could care less what scale they are in as long as it's consistant within their own line.
However people who were thinking these would be suitable guard replacements are probably going to be unhappy as the scale looks to be significantly larger than GW.
I hope they skip the kickstarter and just do a proper release. I'm completely kickstarter-ed out and would just like to see a regular release product for a change.
We had this problem, with Warzone resurrection too! When one posts a model for size comparison, like the space marine and necron here, I think it is misleading to post a model (necron) that has been converted to be abnormally tall!
As I understand it most space marines are ballpark same size as the necron (unconverted) we posted
I have to agree - the legs of that Necron have been converted to be standing taller, which would easily count for the head taller it is than the Marine. These look roughtly the same height as a Marine going by the 'normal' Necron, which is in turn about the hight of a Cadian. Which would make them decent stand ins as long as you don't mind the unexaggerated proportions.
Using GW miniatures to determine the scale of more realistically proportioned sculpts has obvious drawbacks. It seems to me the pic is simply meant to give you a comparison point with a miniature you may be familiar with from in-person experience.
Sorry I didn't realize the inital pic was a modified necron. I resized the marine determined by the width of the base. Due to differances in the camera angle it's not precise but it'd be pretty close.
The marines appear to be on 30mm bases; which using the bases as a measurement looks to place the smart gunner at about 34-35mm tall and the slightly hunched figure to the left appears to be about 32mm. (due to being hunched) Obviously I'm just working from pictures but they seem ever slightly taller than GW models.
The proportions on the models are great, I like a more realistic focus than what GW uses which is one of the reasons I like Infinity figures so much. The detail on the figures is killer as they really did their homework to match the movies, so definately no complaints there.
(As I mentioned before I'm fine with whatever scale they are in as I'll be using them for their own game (or the old leading edge Aliens game) and not mixed with GW).
I love what I'm seeing so far and cannot wait for this to get released.
Marines haven't grown as the rest of the range has though - put a DV cultist next to a marine & you'll see that the cultists are now bigger & the CSM from the set even bigger than that....
Had a look at their Warzone stuff & really like the Dark Legion stuff but some of the minis look stretched. Will be getting this game for the ET models & probably using Hasselfree & Heresy for the humans (even if they're not identical to the 'Aliens' marines).
I'd like to see a regular release... but at the same time I'd like to see how high this would go as a Kickstarter.. just the Aliens name alone if they never play the game, fans would be buying it just for the models. I bet it would beat bones
a) As others have mentioned, just having the licence doesn't automatically mean Prodos have the capital to invest in all the design and production up front
b) It allows a certain mitigation of risk, rather than taking a blind stab in the dark as to how many units to order, it allows a fairly accurate assessment of initial demand, and will avoid them tying up capital (which they may not have ready access to) in stock that takes forever, or never, to shift. Equally, if it goes mental, then they can increase orders to reflect this.
Honestly, if you're a smaller organisation without ready access to low-cost borrowing or your own cash reserves, NOT launching an appropriate product on KS these days needs some very good reasons why.
KS are also quite some fun IF there are run well. I mean, isn't it quite exciting to push a project into new regions to see stuff get unlocked, ideas implemented (Prodos HAS listened to a lot during their Warzone KS) and in the end be part of something.
Chaps we have had both licences for equally the same length of time, both ranges will be loved equally by Prodos Games and we intend both will grow and expand over the next 2-5 years (hopefully with others too!
overtyrant wrote: I don't understand people unwillingness for this to go to KS, there are no negatives for this, only positives.
KS cut out from the very lucrative initial rush the "middle men" like stores who keep the hobby alive for alot of us by providing a centralized place to meet, gather, and play. KS also don't allow you to actually physically have the models in hand to examine (like with blisters) to avoid miscasts and you instead have to resort to a questionable return process that is doubly risky when you make it international. If it is released via the traditional route, you simply pay for the product and get the product immediately. With KS, you *HOPE* that the company makes good on it's promises during the campaign and doesn't unilaterally change things whenever it suits them (see the Mantic KS for examples of that). The only usual benefit to KS for consumers is that they typically get a discount on the product compared with traditional outlets but that wasn't the case with Prodos' only KS to date (warzone) which offered discounts equivalent to the typical 20% you find online and had the added risk of dealing with an international "promise" with a completely new company with no established rep. They seem to have come through very nicely with what they promised so kudos to them but it is extremely naive to say there are no negatives and only positives to going the KS route from a purely consumer POV.
overtyrant wrote: I don't understand people unwillingness for this to go to KS, there are no negatives for this, only positives.
Well, from a consumer point of view, you're paying for something up front, perhaps months in advance, with no guarantee of receiving product on time, if ever. That product, even if delivered on time, could be substandard or not as expected, and you're pretty much stuck.
Going direct to retail means you can make a more informed decision with regards to quality (via reviews and feedback etc) and get it right away, while also being protected by more substantial consumer protection legislation if anything goes awry.
That said, as I've already mentioned, I'm more than happy for this to go to KS, and aside from the GnG table project, the only thing I'm interested in backing right now.
I have nothing against Kickstarter but you can be damn sure I will get very aggravated if this launches before I receive my products from the first Kickstarter. The real aggravating part is that they have not been communicating the status of our orders but instead promoting a new game.
People have a right to worry about how Prodos handles a second Kickstarter as the first has not finished and has been delayed for numerous reasons including floods,broken machines,rules issues etc..
overtyrant wrote: I don't understand people unwillingness for this to go to KS, there are no negatives for this, only positives.
KS cut out from the very lucrative initial rush the "middle men" like stores who keep the hobby alive for alot of us by providing a centralized place to meet, gather, and play. KS also don't allow you to actually physically have the models in hand to examine (like with blisters) to avoid miscasts and you instead have to resort to a questionable return process that is doubly risky when you make it international. If it is released via the traditional route, you simply pay for the product and get the product immediately. With KS, you *HOPE* that the company makes good on it's promises during the campaign and doesn't unilaterally change things whenever it suits them (see the Mantic KS for examples of that). The only usual benefit to KS for consumers is that they typically get a discount on the product compared with traditional outlets but that wasn't the case with Prodos' only KS to date (warzone) which offered discounts equivalent to the typical 20% you find online and had the added risk of dealing with an international "promise" with a completely new company with no established rep. They seem to have come through very nicely with what they promised so kudos to them but it is extremely naive to say there are no negatives and only positives to going the KS route from a purely consumer POV.
Many people don't have gaming stores to 'hold' miniatures before buying so there is risk from getting poor miniatures via post, it's the clubs not the stores holding the community together for some and the product must be quite poor if noone will buy it after the KS (see the Mantic Dreadball KS for examples of that, they sold thousands after that KS). They will be able to get the capital to produce MORE miniatures sooner (see the Mantic KoWKS for examples of that, the only models that were a fail were the nuns and M@A). The only negative I'll say that I missed was that your hoping to get a product from KS.
They seem to be shipping in defacto mini-waves from the chatter in the threads. If you didn't order much, you got shipped first. If you gave them a heft sum, you're likely waiting till they get around to making/filling all the individual parts of your order. Some people got their orders a few weeks ago and posted reviews while others in the same geographic area are still waiting.
overtyrant wrote: I don't understand people unwillingness for this to go to KS, there are no negatives for this, only positives.
KS cut out from the very lucrative initial rush the "middle men" like stores who keep the hobby alive for alot of us by providing a centralized place to meet, gather, and play. KS also don't allow you to actually physically have the models in hand to examine (like with blisters) to avoid miscasts and you instead have to resort to a questionable return process that is doubly risky when you make it international. If it is released via the traditional route, you simply pay for the product and get the product immediately. With KS, you *HOPE* that the company makes good on it's promises during the campaign and doesn't unilaterally change things whenever it suits them (see the Mantic KS for examples of that). The only usual benefit to KS for consumers is that they typically get a discount on the product compared with traditional outlets but that wasn't the case with Prodos' only KS to date (warzone) which offered discounts equivalent to the typical 20% you find online and had the added risk of dealing with an international "promise" with a completely new company with no established rep. They seem to have come through very nicely with what they promised so kudos to them but it is extremely naive to say there are no negatives and only positives to going the KS route from a purely consumer POV.
Many people don't have gaming stores to 'hold' miniatures before buying so there is risk from getting poor miniatures via post, it's the clubs not the stores holding the community together for some and the product must be quite poor if noone will buy it after the KS (see the Mantic Dreadball KS for examples of that, they sold thousands after that KS). They will be able to get the capital to produce MORE miniatures sooner (see the Mantic KoWKS for examples of that, the only models that were a fail were the nuns and M@A). The only negative I'll say that I missed was that your hoping to get a product from KS.
I said "alot of us", not everyone. Absolutely nothing you said above invalidates what I mentioned as potential and unfortunately common or inherent negatives to going the KS route. The negatives are there in plain black and white (or green and gold depending on your dakka theme). Even KS realizes that there are potential negatives as they mandate a "risk" portion to be completed for every campaign. There are plenty of positives for the KS route for the manufacturer but I'm not a manufacturer.. I'm a consumer. You'll have to excuse me if I look at it strictly from the perspective of someone shelling out his/her hard earned money and not from the perspective of the person taking it.
Well, unless they've broken promises or let people down, I dont think its fair to criticise them for preparing their next project, especially as because they are at very different stages, they are unlikely to be demanding attention from the same departments/people.
As they've said they've held both licences for a similar time, it is fair to assume that this has more or less been the plan all along (and starting with the lower value IP was a smart move to allow them to work any kinks out rather than going straight for the money grab.) So I wouldn't be too concerned about their ability to deliver on both at this point.
I believe the major holdup for warzone is the book/cards where they had to get new printers organised after the original ones were flooded out
as for the production status their 8th October update was very clear and showed exactly what the status was on each individual pledge item (and they showed casts of a number of items we'd not seen finalised on 12th October)
so in terms of keeping backers up to date they've been doing very well
Even if you don't have a local store to buy at a standard release grants a "proof-positive" for products. You will have pictures of the production models on which you can guage the quality, you'll have reviews from distributors or other sources that are independant from the maker. That allows you to make a much more informed purchase.
Meanwhile most kickstarters are pushing products "sight unseen", where all they offer is some art work or maybe some renders and the supporters have to take a leap of faith that the promised product will resemble the final goods. You also have to place trust in the fact that you'll see the product at a later date (upwards to a year or so later). Several kickstarters have ended in disaster for their supporters either with not delivering or delivering a product that was far inferior to what was being promoted. (Defiance Games for one)
A standard release also helps supprt the game stores that need those sales to stay open. Every sale lost to a kickstarter is a product they need to find an alternative to sell in order to make that same money. Release day sales are a huge part of what allows a store to move product, once it's past release date items tend to move at a fraction of what they do during the first few days of a products launch. Kickstarter removes that opportunity from gaming stores and damages their bottom line.
Also there's no sense of purchase point gratification on a KS, you buy and wait months until it eventually arrives in the mail. This does not allow for spur of the moment purchases because you saw something that looked cool on the shelf next to something else you were looking at. You can't buy an item on KS take it home and be gaming with it later that night. KS has been a great tool for getting new businesses started however it's also produced some very major changes to how standard gaming retail opporates that we're only starting to see the effects of. When a large established company (like Reaper) starts milking KS it's draining sales away from the retailer pool which at least in the US is very unhealthy for the gaming community.
KS is an effective tool used correctly by small businesses but when it becomes everybody's prime way of launching and marketing their products it a double edged sword. Thats why I'd like to see a conventional release. AVP is certainly a big enough item that distributors will stock it without reservation.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I believe the major holdup for warzone is the book/cards where they had to get new printers organised after the original ones were flooded out
as for the production status their 8th October update was very clear and showed exactly what the status was on each individual pledge item (and they showed casts of a number of items we'd not seen finalised on 12th October)
so in terms of keeping backers up to date they've been doing very well
HOLY gak. An actual project management milestone chart.
Prodos, you have my money for this new game simply due to that.
cincydooley wrote: HOLY gak. An actual project management milestone chart.
Prodos, you have my money for this new game simply due to that.
That does indeed knock the socks off of the Palladium Robotech style "It's lookin' great! Everyone in the office loves it! You'll love it! ...but we won't show you" update that they keep rinsing, lathering, and repeating.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: I believe the major holdup for warzone is the book/cards where they had to get new printers organised after the original ones were flooded out
as for the production status their 8th October update was very clear and showed exactly what the status was on each individual pledge item (and they showed casts of a number of items we'd not seen finalised on 12th October)
so in terms of keeping backers up to date they've been doing very well
HOLY gak. An actual project management milestone chart.
Prodos, you have my money for this new game simply due to that.
Holy crap, yea! That's how you do it! Hell, my wife is a PMP Certified Project Management consultant, and she agreed. If only more game companies would put that sort of planning and focus on implementation, not to mention how cool it is to share it with your backers to let them know what is going on.
I see a product on a webstore I go 'I'll get that eventually' (but don't), I see a product on KS I go 'I need this in my life' and spend money on it. I have been part of quite a few KS so every few months I've been getting stuff in the post so I don't have this 'oh no I'm not gonna get this for a year feeling' (ok I have onone KS, but I've had other shinies to hold me over). So in fact these stores wouldn't be getting my money either way. I see the reason why retail stores dislike KS but I don't have any near at all so I have no 'store loyalty' (though I have a gaming club loyalty which I much prefer) we'll see in a couple of years if KS will be a long term feature for the wargaming industry but retail stores will have to find a way to adapt to this.
However I would like to see things change. Maybe a company to launch a new system via KS but anything future for the game do standard release. I really like KS with it's 'vote with your wallet' way to do things, but I have been known to have 'paladin vision' with things I enjoy.
I hope this is a retail release, call me old fashioned but (when I was a boy and all ) I don't really like KS very much and much prefer retail releases (but I think that's only because I pay way too much attention to Mantics KS, and that puts me off them).
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: no we don't know if it's going to be a KS (although I think that's likely) or a retail release
this is just pre-release teaser stuff
Prodos Rob posted this reply in the AvP thread on Frothers a few days ago, the wording at the end really makes it sound like they're planning a Kickstarter.
We are just finalizing the rules and some of the models, getting them painted etc before releasing them.
We want this to be right, not rushed out. Warzone was a bit rushed out and we never anticipated it would raise more than £35,000. This time we are expecting more from it and we want to be ready.
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: no we don't know if it's going to be a KS (although I think that's likely) or a retail release
this is just pre-release teaser stuff
Prodos Rob posted this reply in the AvP thread on Frothers a few days ago, the wording at the end really makes it sound like they're planning a Kickstarter.
We are just finalizing the rules and some of the models, getting them painted etc before releasing them.
We want this to be right, not rushed out. Warzone was a bit rushed out and we never anticipated it would raise more than £35,000. This time we are expecting more from it and we want to be ready.
I'm taking the Mierce stance on this, as long as the models are good enough, then I can enjoy painting the minis and if the game is good enough, that's a bonus.
At least the structure of this game suggests that getting a couple of the factions should be very easy, so of the game is good, opponents should be easy to recruit.
Did stretch goals with warzone unlock freebies with any frequency? From my somewhat casual following of the campaign the vast majority of unlocks were different figures and factions for purchase, not freebies.
warboss wrote: Did stretch goals with warzone unlock freebies with any frequency? From my somewhat casual following of the campaign the vast majority of unlocks were different figures and factions for purchase, not freebies.
As far as I can recall there wasnt much or anything of that, but I am entirely fine with that considering the amount of models they were able to bring out for that range. If they released them sans kickstarter it would have been a much longer and harder row to hoe.
warboss wrote: Did stretch goals with warzone unlock freebies with any frequency? From my somewhat casual following of the campaign the vast majority of unlocks were different figures and factions for purchase, not freebies.
they added a 10% bonus after a certain point, added in additional selections (all levels were selection based, so it would go from say 4 troop choices to 5) and did have a couple exclusive freebies.
Sorry I didn't realize the inital pic was a modified necron. I resized the marine determined by the width of the base. Due to differances in the camera angle it's not precise but it'd be pretty close.
The marines appear to be on 30mm bases; which using the bases as a measurement looks to place the smart gunner at about 34-35mm tall and the slightly hunched figure to the left appears to be about 32mm. (due to being hunched) Obviously I'm just working from pictures but they seem ever slightly taller than GW models.
The proportions on the models are great, I like a more realistic focus than what GW uses which is one of the reasons I like Infinity figures so much. The detail on the figures is killer as they really did their homework to match the movies, so definately no complaints there.
(As I mentioned before I'm fine with whatever scale they are in as I'll be using them for their own game (or the old leading edge Aliens game) and not mixed with GW).
I love what I'm seeing so far and cannot wait for this to get released.
This pic is still a bit off-putting Looks like they're looking to be at least 32mm (to the eye). That's not terrible, but with my sci-fi collection much more on the side of 28mm, that's a significant difference. I could still be persuaded by a great deal, but in general I like for my human figures to be of similar size.
On the plus side, these will likely scale well with many current lines including Infinity, Reaper Chronoscope (especially the IMEF and NOVA troopers), AT43, and others.
The aesthetic and style doesn't match Infinity at all. Or, I don't think 40k either for that matter!
They look like good sculpts and compared to a lot of big-license miniatures definitely look promising (comparing them to the likes of the new Star Trek miniature range for instance) - let's enjoy these on their own merits, not whether 100 of them on the tabletop are going to look out of place next to a sodding Leman Russ
Another point to consider is that for a miniature to be real scale (and hence right size heads hands etc.), if you make in GW 28mm rather than actual 28mm the limbs and fine detail will be too fine. Prodos miniatures are truescale 28mm, meaning foot to eye is approx 28mm. Equally the heads and hands are the right size for the body, rather than elephantised. Also to be fair to GW alot of their miniatures (e.g. Older Cadians and Catchans) were made using greens, where sculpting of finer detail is not possible. If you look at their newer Catchan command squad you will see quite a size and relative proportion move as those minis (like Prodos minis) are computer designed.
As someone that backed the Warzone Kickstarter I just think it's worth warning some people about some of the issues with some Prodos miniatures, they look great in renders and some photos but it's easy to miss some of the real life problems.
(1) There have been instances of super detailed renders and then when the models come out from casting a lot of the detail is merged together and obscured because they tried to cram too much detail in and their casting process couldn't achieve that fidelity. I've had some face masks virtually merge onto the rounded head they are meant to cover - the detail loss on some models was pretty bad. In some other cases the detail is so subtle, particularly with some face and armour pieces, that I'm almost certain it will be lost when priming.
(2) Many of the Warzone models are extremely fragile and haven't really been designed with durability in mind. For example none of the weapons are modelled on the arms, you cut the weapons off and then glue them on, which is all fine and normal. But when the weapon is only 1mm thick and the content point 1.5mm long it's not going to take much to knock it off, I've had issues even when using industrial strength glue - some of the pieces are just so tiny and thin. For example one of my machine guns is so thin you can see through the resin on parts that are meant to be filled. I also had one ankle break in the post - fine that's normal with models, except the break point at the ankle is less than 2mm wide. 2mm wide ankles is not terribly smart.
(3) Other issues - they used square lock pegs for joints. Makes assembly easy, though restrictive, but nearly all of the lock joints were partially infilled with resin - so they didn't work but nor where they flush to the surface so you had to put green stuff in just to do a flush glue joint.
Also, particularly bad, on the arms that were meant to have the square pegs to set into the joints the pegs were up against the part attached to the sprue and were completely clogged with resin, meaning you couldn't use them if you wanted to.
(4) One of my units was impossible to assemble as per the render, one of the set of weapons literally had no contact points so you had to ram green stuff into it and just slather it all over the hand. It was also to impossible to assemble the arms as laid out in the render, even with prodigous should cutting due to their lengths and limited variety of poses.
Quality does matter but there's more to quality than just render details and the hand selected models representing the best of the bunch.
Just somethong to keep in mind before going all in on the Kickstarter, based on Warzone I'd recommend a small initial investment and then judging for yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot to mention the card stock used in Warzone:
(1) Verrrry thin stock, not very durable.
(2) Non-standard size so you won't be able to get deck protectors for them.
(3) Arrived with most cards with damaged corners as it had peeled back.
As someone that backed the Warzone Kickstarter I just think it's worth warning some people about some of the issues with some Prodos miniatures, they look great in renders and some photos but it's easy to miss some of the real life problems.
(1) There have been instances of super detailed renders and then when the models come out from casting a lot of the detail is merged together and obscured because they tried to cram too much detail in and their casting process couldn't achieve that fidelity. I've had some face masks virtually merge onto the rounded head they are meant to cover - the detail loss on some models was pretty bad. In some other cases the detail is so subtle, particularly with some face and armour pieces, that I'm almost certain it will be lost when priming.
(2) Many of the Warzone models are extremely fragile and haven't really been designed with durability in mind. For example none of the weapons are modelled on the arms, you cut the weapons off and then glue them on, which is all fine and normal. But when the weapon is only 1mm thick and the content point 1.5mm long it's not going to take much to knock it off, I've had issues even when using industrial strength glue - some of the pieces are just so tiny and thin. For example one of my machine guns is so thin you can see through the resin on parts that are meant to be filled. I also had one ankle break in the post - fine that's normal with models, except the break point at the ankle is less than 2mm wide. 2mm wide ankles is not terribly smart.
(3) Other issues - they used square lock pegs for joints. Makes assembly easy, though restrictive, but nearly all of the lock joints were partially infilled with resin - so they didn't work but nor where they flush to the surface so you had to put green stuff in just to do a flush glue joint.
Also, particularly bad, on the arms that were meant to have the square pegs to set into the joints the pegs were up against the part attached to the sprue and were completely clogged with resin, meaning you couldn't use them if you wanted to.
(4) One of my units was impossible to assemble as per the render, one of the set of weapons literally had no contact points so you had to ram green stuff into it and just slather it all over the hand. It was also to impossible to assemble the arms as laid out in the render, even with prodigous should cutting due to their lengths and limited variety of poses.
Quality does matter but there's more to quality than just render details and the hand selected models representing the best of the bunch.
Just somethong to keep in mind before going all in on the Kickstarter, based on Warzone I'd recommend a small initial investment and then judging for yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot to mention the card stock used in Warzone:
(1) Verrrry thin stock, not very durable.
(2) Non-standard size so you won't be able to get deck protectors for them.
(3) Arrived with most cards with damaged corners as it had peeled back.
(1) There have been instances of super detailed renders and then when the models come out from casting a lot of the detail is merged together and obscured because they tried to cram too much detail in and their casting process couldn't achieve that fidelity. I've had some face masks virtually merge onto the rounded head they are meant to cover - the detail loss on some models was pretty bad. In some other cases the detail is so subtle, particularly with some face and armour pieces, that I'm almost certain it will be lost when priming.
Hmm. I noticed some issues with flash on my capitol troops, but didn't have anything quite as bad as you describe. And mine have primed up really well. I'd be interested to know which starter you went with?
(2) Many of the Warzone models are extremely fragile and haven't really been designed with durability in mind. For example none of the weapons are modelled on the arms, you cut the weapons off and then glue them on, which is all fine and normal. But when the weapon is only 1mm thick and the content point 1.5mm long it's not going to take much to knock it off, I've had issues even when using industrial strength glue - some of the pieces are just so tiny and thin. For example one of my machine guns is so thin you can see through the resin on parts that are meant to be filled. I also had one ankle break in the post - fine that's normal with models, except the break point at the ankle is less than 2mm wide. 2mm wide ankles is not terribly smart.
They are a bit fragile, a lot of fine cuts and things that can be snap easily. Mine have been flexible at the joints, however. I did notice some thinness however. And if 2mm is truescale, then 2mm it must be. It's not a question of smart, just scaling.
(3) Other issues - they used square lock pegs for joints. Makes assembly easy, though restrictive, but nearly all of the lock joints were partially infilled with resin - so they didn't work but nor where they flush to the surface so you had to put green stuff in just to do a flush glue joint. Also, particularly bad, on the arms that were meant to have the square pegs to set into the joints the pegs were up against the part attached to the sprue and were completely clogged with resin, meaning you couldn't use them if you wanted to.
You could, you know, cut em off like I did for some of the joints I didn't like? This seems more like a preference issue. Are you sure you just didn't cut all of the gate off? I haven't had the female connecter clog issue yet (again, cause I cut the entire peg off if I wanted to change the pose/it didn't fit.)
(4) One of my units was impossible to assemble as per the render, one of the set of weapons literally had no contact points so you had to ram green stuff into it and just slather it all over the hand. It was also to impossible to assemble the arms as laid out in the render, even with prodigous should cutting due to their lengths and limited variety of poses.
See I'm really curious which set you got. All my weapons were attached the arms. Like some Infinity models, getting the pose correct was a bit tough when you were glueing 4 ish joints at once, but that comes with the territory in my experience. YMMV.
Just somethong to keep in mind before going all in on the Kickstarter, based on Warzone I'd recommend a small initial investment and then judging for yourself.
Agreed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot to mention the card stock used in Warzone:
(1) Verrrry thin stock, not very durable.
(2) Non-standard size so you won't be able to get deck protectors for them.
(3) Arrived with most cards with damaged corners as it had peeled back.
1. I didn't notice that.
2. They fit gaming card sleeves.
3. Hmm. You really do seem to have gotten a rotten bit of stuff with your KS. I didn't have any thing like this issue. Did you contact them for replacements?
As someone that backed the Warzone Kickstarter I just think it's worth warning some people about some of the issues with some Prodos miniatures, they look great in renders and some photos but it's easy to miss some of the real life problems.
(1) There have been instances of super detailed renders and then when the models come out from casting a lot of the detail is merged together and obscured because they tried to cram too much detail in and their casting process couldn't achieve that fidelity. I've had some face masks virtually merge onto the rounded head they are meant to cover - the detail loss on some models was pretty bad. In some other cases the detail is so subtle, particularly with some face and armour pieces, that I'm almost certain it will be lost when priming.
(2) Many of the Warzone models are extremely fragile and haven't really been designed with durability in mind. For example none of the weapons are modelled on the arms, you cut the weapons off and then glue them on, which is all fine and normal. But when the weapon is only 1mm thick and the content point 1.5mm long it's not going to take much to knock it off, I've had issues even when using industrial strength glue - some of the pieces are just so tiny and thin. For example one of my machine guns is so thin you can see through the resin on parts that are meant to be filled. I also had one ankle break in the post - fine that's normal with models, except the break point at the ankle is less than 2mm wide. 2mm wide ankles is not terribly smart.
(3) Other issues - they used square lock pegs for joints. Makes assembly easy, though restrictive, but nearly all of the lock joints were partially infilled with resin - so they didn't work but nor where they flush to the surface so you had to put green stuff in just to do a flush glue joint.
Also, particularly bad, on the arms that were meant to have the square pegs to set into the joints the pegs were up against the part attached to the sprue and were completely clogged with resin, meaning you couldn't use them if you wanted to.
(4) One of my units was impossible to assemble as per the render, one of the set of weapons literally had no contact points so you had to ram green stuff into it and just slather it all over the hand. It was also to impossible to assemble the arms as laid out in the render, even with prodigous should cutting due to their lengths and limited variety of poses.
Quality does matter but there's more to quality than just render details and the hand selected models representing the best of the bunch.
Just somethong to keep in mind before going all in on the Kickstarter, based on Warzone I'd recommend a small initial investment and then judging for yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot to mention the card stock used in Warzone:
(1) Verrrry thin stock, not very durable.
(2) Non-standard size so you won't be able to get deck protectors for them.
(3) Arrived with most cards with damaged corners as it had peeled back.
In other hand,I am happy that you have created new account mr. jimbojohnson here on Dakkadakka just to provide the feedback about our models ;] Thank you.
Also please contact us on orders@warzonegame.com, as far as I know we had couple emails about missing bits but nothing as bad as this feedback.
jimbojohnson wrote: As someone that backed the Warzone Kickstarter I just think it's worth warning some people about some of the issues with some Prodos miniatures, they look great in renders and some photos but it's easy to miss some of the real life problems.
(1) There have been instances of super detailed renders and then when the models come out from casting a lot of the detail is merged together and obscured because they tried to cram too much detail in and their casting process couldn't achieve that fidelity. I've had some face masks virtually merge onto the rounded head they are meant to cover - the detail loss on some models was pretty bad. In some other cases the detail is so subtle, particularly with some face and armour pieces, that I'm almost certain it will be lost when priming.
(2) Many of the Warzone models are extremely fragile and haven't really been designed with durability in mind. For example none of the weapons are modelled on the arms, you cut the weapons off and then glue them on, which is all fine and normal. But when the weapon is only 1mm thick and the content point 1.5mm long it's not going to take much to knock it off, I've had issues even when using industrial strength glue - some of the pieces are just so tiny and thin. For example one of my machine guns is so thin you can see through the resin on parts that are meant to be filled. I also had one ankle break in the post - fine that's normal with models, except the break point at the ankle is less than 2mm wide. 2mm wide ankles is not terribly smart.
(3) Other issues - they used square lock pegs for joints. Makes assembly easy, though restrictive, but nearly all of the lock joints were partially infilled with resin - so they didn't work but nor where they flush to the surface so you had to put green stuff in just to do a flush glue joint.
Also, particularly bad, on the arms that were meant to have the square pegs to set into the joints the pegs were up against the part attached to the sprue and were completely clogged with resin, meaning you couldn't use them if you wanted to.
(4) One of my units was impossible to assemble as per the render, one of the set of weapons literally had no contact points so you had to ram green stuff into it and just slather it all over the hand. It was also to impossible to assemble the arms as laid out in the render, even with prodigous should cutting due to their lengths and limited variety of poses.
Quality does matter but there's more to quality than just render details and the hand selected models representing the best of the bunch.
Just somethong to keep in mind before going all in on the Kickstarter, based on Warzone I'd recommend a small initial investment and then judging for yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot to mention the card stock used in Warzone:
(1) Verrrry thin stock, not very durable.
(2) Non-standard size so you won't be able to get deck protectors for them.
(3) Arrived with most cards with damaged corners as it had peeled back.
Hello again Jimbo. Looks like you are doing a great job for your employers, shame they have such tactics.
1. As seen in the above post this is not true.
2. Armoured Chasseurs, Hatamoto, Hiroko Etoiles Mortants Meka, Casred Warriors, Inquisitors etc are all examples of where this is not true.
3. Some hero models have square pegs (eg Immortal) but you only need one in your force (he is a Warlord), but if you want to convert and mutipose him, the clippers or knife you used to remove him from the sprue work to remove the square plug (maybe you are too used to 'restic' where clippers arent needed)
4. Cant answer this with such vagueness, but can state that I personally have put together every WZR and AVP model (see warzonegame.com) and all fit together (again Restic only needs remedial level of modelling ability)
1). Exactly the same quality as Warmachine
2). Ultrapro Toploaders 3x4 inches. These will fit perfectly in the KR Multicase WZR sell too (we will stock the sleeves shortly)
3). Again, please send orders@warzonegame.com photos and we will happily replace.
jimbojohnson wrote: As someone that backed the Warzone Kickstarter I just think it's worth warning some people about some of the issues with some Prodos miniatures, they look great in renders and some photos but it's easy to miss some of the real life problems.
(1) There have been instances of super detailed renders and then when the models come out from casting a lot of the detail is merged together and obscured because they tried to cram too much detail in and their casting process couldn't achieve that fidelity. I've had some face masks virtually merge onto the rounded head they are meant to cover - the detail loss on some models was pretty bad. In some other cases the detail is so subtle, particularly with some face and armour pieces, that I'm almost certain it will be lost when priming.
(2) Many of the Warzone models are extremely fragile and haven't really been designed with durability in mind. For example none of the weapons are modelled on the arms, you cut the weapons off and then glue them on, which is all fine and normal. But when the weapon is only 1mm thick and the content point 1.5mm long it's not going to take much to knock it off, I've had issues even when using industrial strength glue - some of the pieces are just so tiny and thin. For example one of my machine guns is so thin you can see through the resin on parts that are meant to be filled. I also had one ankle break in the post - fine that's normal with models, except the break point at the ankle is less than 2mm wide. 2mm wide ankles is not terribly smart.
(3) Other issues - they used square lock pegs for joints. Makes assembly easy, though restrictive, but nearly all of the lock joints were partially infilled with resin - so they didn't work but nor where they flush to the surface so you had to put green stuff in just to do a flush glue joint.
Also, particularly bad, on the arms that were meant to have the square pegs to set into the joints the pegs were up against the part attached to the sprue and were completely clogged with resin, meaning you couldn't use them if you wanted to.
(4) One of my units was impossible to assemble as per the render, one of the set of weapons literally had no contact points so you had to ram green stuff into it and just slather it all over the hand. It was also to impossible to assemble the arms as laid out in the render, even with prodigous should cutting due to their lengths and limited variety of poses.
Quality does matter but there's more to quality than just render details and the hand selected models representing the best of the bunch.
Just somethong to keep in mind before going all in on the Kickstarter, based on Warzone I'd recommend a small initial investment and then judging for yourself.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Forgot to mention the card stock used in Warzone:
(1) Verrrry thin stock, not very durable.
(2) Non-standard size so you won't be able to get deck protectors for them.
(3) Arrived with most cards with damaged corners as it had peeled back.
Hello again Jimbo. Looks like you are doing a great job for your employees, shame they have such tactics.
1. As seen in the above post this is not true.
2. Armoured Chasseurs, Hatamoto, Hiroko Etoiles Mortants Meka, Casred Warriors, Inquisitors etc are all examples of where this is not true.
3. Some hero models have square pegs (eg Immortal) but you only need one in your force (he is a Warlord), but if you want to convert and mutipose him, the clippers or knife you used to remove him from the sprue work to remove the square plug (maybe you are too used to 'restic' where clippers arent needed)
4. Cant answer this with such vagueness, but can state that I personally have put together every WZR and AVP model (see warzonegame.com) and all fit together (again Restic only needs remedial level of modelling ability)
1). Exactly the same quality as Warmachine
2). Ultrapro Toploaders 3x4 inches. These will fit perfectly in the KR Multicase WZR sell too (we will stock the sleeves shortly)
3). Again, ask your employers if you can use their phone, Prodos are more than happy to replace them, but remember pulling a card apart will have this affect (whether ours, your employers or any others).
You really should let warzone resurrection handle your customer service.
His response was excellent, yours came across derogatory, and with a new company about to launch a kickstarter we presume this approach is not well received.
He's got a new account, very similar to you, so don't start throwing stones. I'll get the game when it hits the shelves, but will definitely be looking at independent reviews of quality.
@jimbo, was there anything positive about your purchase? I can see why they responded the way they did in the second post, perhaps you can let us know if your be ebaying all of it, or if the benefits of the models outweigh the drawbacks.
I disagree. To me, it sounds very conclusory. I look forward to seeing pictures backing up those claims as they don't square with another review (with pictures) linked in this thread.
Prodos wrote: Looks like you are doing a great job for your employees, shame they have such tactics.
Prodos wrote: Looks like you are doing a great job for your employees, shame they have such tactics.
May I ask, for whom do you imply he's working?
Agreed, I'd like to hear more. Not that I wouldn't be equally pissy if someone registered a new account to anonymously trash my company, without providing any evidence, shortly before I planned to launch a Kickstarter, but really accusing him of being a shill without providing any evidence for that either is pretty iffy too.
So firstly this is one of the Cybertronic Chasseurs. There's a real issue with facial detail here, for example their masks smoothly blend into the faces without any edging. Some have lost their ears as well:
Another example, this was focused on the face and is not a result of the camera:
You can also see in the above picture my workaround for the lack of mounting point for that weapon (more on this later).
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This is the foot from my Cuirasseur, the left part of it is where the ankle joins the leg, both of them are this thin and weak. This break happened in the post and with such a small join point I have no confidence in it surviving the weight of the model long term. I'm going to have to put some scenic basing material around the foot to take the model's weight:
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Here are the "pegs" for some Cybertronic troops, the torsos have holes for them to fit into. I'd actually already assembled the ones that had their pegs still usable. I'm going to have to green stuff up the holes in the torsos to give these enough of a purchase point to glue:
Also note that only one of the left arms is holding a weapon stock (more on this later).
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Here's the weapon for the Cuirasseur, I couldn't get a shot up against the light as it blurred the optics too much but this shows where you can see through it when held up. Of particular note is the weapon's stock, it's pretty much as thin as the flash on the model. I'm tempted just to clip it off to save having to fix it later:
And here's the weapon attached, this was one of the weak weapon attachment points I was talking about, it's 1.5mm x 0.5mm in size. As much as it's going to look ugly I'm going to have to build some green stuff up around it to secure it in place otherwise it won't survive transportation:
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Here's a Cybertronic weapon sprue, the weapons on the left have no attachment point and, if you use the pegs for the arms the stabiliser on the right weapons won't fit:
Here's some pictures of the left weapon and the tiny, angled contact point. These were the weapons that I had to resort to green stuffing into position with a large blob of the stuff:
These were the unit that can't be assembled as per the render, the render shows them all with the weapons in their left hands but only one of the 5 sets of left hands has a weapon handle in it. Arguably you could leave that angled piece of resin in the left set of weapons and use it as a handle but it's got no detail on it, looks awful and you still have to almost no contact point for gluing. Plus all the right hand arms are holding weapon handles, so unless you want all your men doing a fist bump in the air after cleaning off the handle parts you don't really have much option.
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I should point out that the larger, bulkier models like the Everasseur or Razide look great. But it's the human sized stuff and models slightly larger, like the Cuirasseur, that have these durability and loss of detail issues.
I have seen one other thread pop up on the WZ:R message boards with someone complaining over the detail on some of their models, but it seemed to disappear a couple of hours later...
Hmm. I noticed some issues with flash on my capitol troops, but didn't have anything quite as bad as you describe. And mine have primed up really well. I'd be interested to know which starter you went with?
Yeah I think because Capitol are stockier it's perhaps not such a problem. Didn't know their weapons were attached, that's quite nice. We had the Cybertronic and Dark Legion armies which both have these issues.
See I'm really curious which set you got. All my weapons were attached the arms. Like some Infinity models, getting the pose correct was a bit tough when you were glueing 4 ish joints at once, but that comes with the territory in my experience. YMMV.
I should probably point out I don't have problems dealing with unattached weapons themselves - Forge World's Fireglaives caused me no issues and were more complicated to assemble. It's just the lack of any proper gluing points that was the real bugbear for us.
@jimbo, was there anything positive about your purchase? I can see why they responded the way they did in the second post, perhaps you can let us know if your be ebaying all of it, or if the benefits of the models outweigh the drawbacks.
I'm keeping them for the time being - we still haven't received the rulebook or cards yet, so I want to actually play the game before making any decision on it.
Like I say the larger models are just lovely, and I do still like the models despite the issues present, I was just a bit disappointed about some of the things I've mentioned. I think a lot of the durability issues are just due to not thinking through about how things are going to be once downscaled and cast at the kind of resolution the medium can achieve so hopefully AvP will come out a little better based on their experience with Warzone.
I mention it not to trash them. but just so that people don't see renders and immediately think that that is how the model is going to look, and so people keep in mind the limitations of durability when looking at the fine detail on some of these renders.
I know this is a new account (I normally post on Warseer and just lurk here), but this is where the conversation about AvP is, so this is where the information is relevant.
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judgedoug wrote: ... but they've offered to replace stuff for free?
So is this your second, third, fourth set?
I had trouble reaching them so gave up and just started assembly.
I had been hoping to get them ready to attend the convention (which is next week) and that would have been a no go by that point if I'd had to send them back. The only issue they could have fixed really was the broken ankle anyway and like I said I can work around that by just burying his leg in a pile of debris on the base.
thanks for the pics and quick response jimbo , It is definitely something to consider when this releases. I would hope that whatever issues they had they have them resolved before AVP gets rolling. Welcome to Dakkadakka by the way.
That's disappointing. Virtually every other review and pic I've seen has been of exceptional quality. I would hope that if I received a model that looked nothing like the models anyone else has received or reviewed that the company would replace them.
This is simply not true.
Firstly the 'low detail image' you show are out of focus. If one looks at the gun and arm photos posted by 'Jimbo' they are more indicative of the detail levels all the models have. Additionally the Cybertronic faction is a subtle mix of man and machine (think Terminator after he's been bashed about).
The gun attachment also is not a problem, it is no different to the attachment of a bolter to a SM. Yes the models are finer detailed and hands smaller, but the resin sticks near instantly when a small dab of superglue is used. Again I would suggest any modeller with at least a basic level of modelling ability will be able to work and enjoy working with these models.
The Atilla (Curiassur) is a tall but slight model, but if one takes care and uses appropriate foam cases (like with any resin model) there will be no problem. My own trio of them have travelled across the UK and even to mainland Europe without issue. They have even been used at 2 different conventions as demo models.
If needed I can list a number of other KS supporters all of which are or than happy (in fact ecstatic) with their models. Please let me know
this is the level of details your chasseurs head should have, if this is not the case, its quality issue and please contact us at orders@warzonegame.com, optionally as you going to be at the convention come to see me (Jarek) for replacement:
in regards to overall warzone model detail discussion here are some randome samples, of the shelf, I dont have assembled chasseurs on me but I should have it later on so pic to follow
Necromutants:
If model is not to this standards we are more than happy to provide replacement.
You might be digging yourself a hole here, Prodos. I think the answer you are looking for is "I am terribly sorry you seem to have a bad batch. Please let us know what needs to be replaced, and we will send them your way asap."
A private email or cellphone number isn't necessary, but it is often what the better customer service companies do.
Wehrkind wrote: You might be digging yourself a hole here, Prodos. I think the answer you are looking for is "I am terribly sorry you seem to have a bad batch. Please let us know what needs to be replaced, and we will send them your way asap."
A private email or cellphone number isn't necessary, but it is often what the better customer service companies do.
We have already made that statement to him and offered him a full refund.
But equally we cannot and will not stand by when statements made are not true. Would you when your life and livelihood depend on it?
As we are going of the topic can I please ask some MOD to move last 2 pages to Warzone Resurrection Topic,
Lets focus on AvP, from the point where we where (beginning of Warzone and 1st models designed (Legionnaires and Chasseurs it has been long 6 months of sweat and blood to make it right.
to ANN: I am sorry but you have been one of the 1st WZ fans receiving our models during KS, so you should know already the quality... but anyway, I think your order is being processed so please provide some review as soon as you got it. Thanks Jarek.
jimbojohnson wrote:
Forgot to mention the card stock used in Warzone:
(1) Verrrry thin stock, not very durable.
(2) Non-standard size so you won't be able to get deck protectors for them.
(3) Arrived with most cards with damaged corners as it had peeled back.
jimbojohnson wrote:
I'm keeping them for the time being - we still haven't received the rulebook or cards yet, so I want to actually play the game before making any decision on it.
.
I have no dog in this fight, but which is it? Are the cards poorly made or do you not have them yet?
Warzone Resurrection wrote: As we are going of the topic can I please ask some MOD to move last 2 pages to Warzone Resurrection Topic,
Damn, true, so easy to move off...
Warzone Resurrection wrote: to ANN: I am sorry but you have been one of the 1st WZ fans receiving our models during KS, so you should know already the quality... but anyway, I think your order is being processed so please provide some review as soon as you got it. Thanks Jarek.
Unfortunately no, but AVP rules covering aspects like : "Making your own Hero/Heroes" (you can Named them and Equipped as you want ;] )
So no Apone, Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez, etc sculpts?
If not specifically due to likeness rights and fees, perhaps we'll just get generic gruff cigar chewin' black sergeant, cowardly caucasian trooper, and latina with a big machine gun minis... or maybe they'll mix up some of the details like with the horrorclix AVP minis and the female human mini they had.
Unfortunately no, but AVP rules covering aspects like : "Making your own Hero/Heroes" (you can Named them and Equipped as you want ;] )
So no Apone, Hicks, Hudson, Vasquez, etc sculpts?
If not specifically due to likeness rights and fees, perhaps we'll just get generic gruff cigar chewin' black sergeant, cowardly caucasian trooper, and latina with a big machine gun minis... or maybe they'll mix up some of the details like with the horrorclix AVP minis and the female human mini they had.
Those could all possibly come under a different license? The individual alien and predator license are possibly separate to the AVP one.
Are you guys gonna have sculpts that look like those of the first two Alien movies? Or are you stuck with the design from the fourth film and both AVP movies?
Imposter101 wrote: Are you guys gonna have sculpts that look like those of the first two Alien movies? Or are you stuck with the design from the fourth film and both AVP movies?
Is there a convenient set of comparison pics of alien "types" anywhere? (As in, not some expensive artbook or somesuch, online and free would be key words ) A quick google search didn't get me all that far.
I'm getting curious as to what all the hooey wrt 1st movie vs 4th movie aliens is all about.
James Cameron: The Alien in the first film had only been alive for 24 hours. It was still an infant, even thought it’d grown full size. (...) The Alien head in the first film was very smooth. The top of the head was very smooth. Underneath it had a skull shape and a ribbed design and originally it was designed to see that through that kind of transparent surface in the Giger design. I thought that what was underneath the surface was more interesting than the final look
There's several reasons for the ridged design and the smooth design most came about after the fact including the reason why new born Xenomorph's have smooth heads and older ones have ridges. Whilst filming Aliens they found the smooth design was to fragile and was prone to getting broken during action scenes so they came up with the ridged design which is far more robust the background was then redone to explain that older Xenomorph's (as the Hadley's hope ones are as they have been around for some time before the marines arrive) develop ridges as they age. In other versions of the back ground drones have smooth heads where as warriors have ridged heads even though they are often considered to be the same caste of Xenomorph.
It's fine. I wouldn't worry about it. All the alien designs look pretty darn cool and the vast majority of even die hard fans won't confuse their dislike of an entire movie with dislike of a single design. I like the variety you'll be introducing to the aliens and look forward to hopefully some "dog" aliens as well. I don't care how "great" one design from a single movie is in a wargame as even a great design will look boring if you have to cut and paste the same exact thing (albeit with different poses) over and over again.
The second film had the 'rigged' heads due to the belief that it would be easier to film without breakage. Various sources claim that ether the rigged heads mean the aliens older or of a diffirent class. It's never going to be agreed on and can't really be properly defined.
But I hope to high heaven they do the original designs over the gakky AVP/4th film designs, which are generic stunted monster, compared to Giger's amazing creation.
Bolognesus wrote: ...Probably just my usual lack of taste, but I really, really prefer that 4th/AvP critter. Oh well. Anyway, thanks both
Same here! Really not seeing what all the fuss is about, personally . That said, the wide shot of the minis didn't make them look that amazing yet, but it's just a teaser.
So long as there's no "Newborn/Alien Sapian" it's all good what where they thinking when they came up with that? even the Predalien is better than that and I'm not a massive fan of that particular crossover (design wise that is).
warboss wrote: It's fine. I wouldn't worry about it. All the alien designs look pretty darn cool and the vast majority of even die hard fans won't confuse their dislike of an entire movie with dislike of a single design. I like the variety you'll be introducing to the aliens and look forward to hopefully some "dog" aliens as well. I don't care how "great" one design from a single movie is in a wargame as even a great design will look boring if you have to cut and paste the same exact thing (albeit with different poses) over and over again.
That's how I feel.. would be happy with a nice sculpt of either of the first two movies aliens (what we have seen so far is very promising!)
the difference is that the Alien/Aliens Giger/Cameron designs are that they are biomechanical. the later Alien Resurrection aliens are just squishy monsters.
Comparison photos:
Spoiler:
see the cables and ridges of the Giger alien here
the biomechanical design is what makes the Giger xenomorph so special.
Cameron Alien (removed plexiglass hood and toned down the human skull)
I think I liked it better when MT11 was just nitpicking toes like a nervous first time Genestealer Patriach with his first brood. I'm sorry but I don't see any significant difference in coolness in the designs between the movies. One doesn't look any squishier or less biomechanical. Maybe my jeans aren't skinny enough but I like all the designs except for the "human" resurrection baby hybrid and, to a minor extent, the predalien in Requiem.
I want the alien horde to look cool at the tabletop level. I want to be able to presumably field different units of aliens that *LOOK* different at a glance but are still recognizable to mass market fans of the films. Prodos can't introduce variety and stay loyal to the series of films without using some of the latter designs. Don't want the supposedly inferior later movie alien designs? Don't get those models or just trade them with other players so you can have a cookie cutter alien horde of cloned identical models.
warboss wrote: I want the alien horde to look cool at the tabletop level. I want to be able to presumably field different units of aliens that *LOOK* different at a glance but are still recognizable to mass market fans of the films. Prodos can't introduce variety and stay loyal to the series of films without using some of the latter designs. Don't want the supposedly inferior later movie alien designs? Don't get those models or just trade them with other players so you can have a cookie cutter alien horde of cloned identical models.
warboss wrote: I want the alien horde to look cool at the tabletop level. I want to be able to presumably field different units of aliens that *LOOK* different at a glance but are still recognizable to mass market fans of the films. Prodos can't introduce variety and stay loyal to the series of films without using some of the latter designs. Don't want the supposedly inferior later movie alien designs? Don't get those models or just trade them with other players so you can have a cookie cutter alien horde of cloned identical models.
Nice red-herring/mis-representation argument.
Not even close. I simply want variety on the tabletop that corresponds to the films.
Wasn't the alien from the 3rd movie based on a 'dog' so he had a more bestial body?
I would assume if someone was making models for a particular universe, we would see models representing the multiple movies as well as the comic universe. I don't see a problem having Alien, Aliens and Alien3 models which all are distinct and different. I mean how many super-hero models have different 'flavors' of the same hero based upon what universe he came from?
I don't see why there is a 'make a model of only the single true alien' discussion. If they make 6 different designs, then buy 20 of the design you like.
I enjoy the aliens franchise, and never once has the 'difference between how the alien looks' has it ever bothered me once, but I am a transformers fan who has his universe rebooted and redesigned every 18 months.
nkelsch wrote: I don't see why there is a 'make a model of only the single true alien' discussion. If they make 6 different designs, then buy 20 of the design you like.
the problem is that the xenomorph from Alien Resurrection looks more like Pumpkinhead than a Giger/Cameron xenomorph
the original designs use ribbed tubing. the later designs use melted candlewax.
Hi! I'm pumpkinhead!
The difference would be something like this
which is a real Robotech/Macross Valkyrie?
Well? Either are "still recognizable to mass market fans" of Macross but one is a bad redesign (for Battletech) while the other is the superior original.
But if you don't want a later Alien sculpt, you can just choose to buy the earlier ones, right? No issue then... I don't have a dog in this fight, I just want cool models, and the more options to choose from, the better.
warboss wrote: I want the alien horde to look cool at the tabletop level. I want to be able to presumably field different units of aliens that *LOOK* different at a glance but are still recognizable to mass market fans of the films. Prodos can't introduce variety and stay loyal to the series of films without using some of the latter designs. Don't want the supposedly inferior later movie alien designs? Don't get those models or just trade them with other players so you can have a cookie cutter alien horde of cloned identical models.
Nice red-herring/mis-representation argument.
Not even close. I simply want variety on the tabletop that corresponds to the films.
You act like people only want one variant of the Alien in one pose and design. You can still have variety with posing, which is pretty much what the Aliens are made for, movement. Climbing down walls, pipes, out of vents, all sorts of stuff could be done with one sculpt alone.
Agreed, AvP aliens are closer to the Pumpkinhead end of the spectrum ... trading more on the reputation of the xenomorph than creating/bolstering that reputation.
edlowe wrote: Did I dream it were there some aquatic aliens in the comics once?
They swim pretty well in Resurrection but they are not specifically shark-aliens or some such Kenner-inspired nonsense.
RiTides wrote: It'd still be nice (for many people) to have more "types" of aliens
Variety is not always a good thing. I'm sure someone out there would love for Prodos to make MLP versions but it's not really in keeping with the brand identity. That's an extreme example but it gives you, presumably a non-fan, a sense for the feelings involved here among fans. Now, I concede the brand in question is AVP rather than Alien or Aliens so those feelings specifically regarding this product may be a little misplace.
Imposter101 wrote: You act like people only want one variant of the Alien in one pose and design. You can still have variety with posing, which is pretty much what the Aliens are made for, movement. Climbing down walls, pipes, out of vents, all sorts of stuff could be done with one sculpt alone.
You seemed to have missed it the first time (perhaps it was covered in alien goo on your screen) so I'll quote it here again...
warboss wrote: It's fine. I wouldn't worry about it. All the alien designs look pretty darn cool and the vast majority of even die hard fans won't confuse their dislike of an entire movie with dislike of a single design. I like the variety you'll be introducing to the aliens and look forward to hopefully some "dog" aliens as well. I don't care how "great" one design from a single movie is in a wargame as even a great design will look boring if you have to cut and paste the same exact thing (albeit with different poses) over and over again.
If I go in on this, I plan on making a wargame army out of the aliens. If they're making different types of aliens with presumably different stats (a logical assumption for a tabletop minis game), I want the minis to be recognizable as that unit/type/subspecies from a glance. I don't want to have them all be first "Alien" movie aliens and then have to specify that the guys on ledges are this where as the guys on the ground are that but the ones leaping are a third type. I'd rather have the "infants" be the hormugant-style young aliens with poorer stats where as the later crested head ridge AVP aliens be the more experienced/grown varients like Genestealers whereas the dog aliens (if they'll exist) are the superfast movers of the horde like gargoyles.
I doubt Prodos is catering to people who want to use their models for something besides playing an AVP game ... but we've already been over that. Now variety for the sake of the AVP game is another matter.
RiTides wrote: It'd still be nice (for many people) to have more "types" of aliens
Variety is not always a good thing. I'm sure someone out there would love for Prodos to make MLP versions but it's not really in keeping with the brand identity. That's an extreme example but it gives you, presumably a non-fan, a sense for the feelings involved here among fans. Now, I concede the brand in question is AVP rather than Alien or Aliens so those feelings specifically regarding this product may be a little misplace.
I'm with the last line, though- this is specifically "Alien vs Predator" so, on that note, it really isn't likely only to have the original Alien design, since the movie it's licensing came later... right?
Manchu wrote: I doubt Prodos is catering to people who want to use their models for something besides playing an AVP game ... but we've already been over that. Now variety for the sake of the AVP game is another matter.
Manchu wrote: I doubt Prodos is catering to people who want to use their models for something besides playing an AVP game ... but we've already been over that. Now variety for the sake of the AVP game is another matter.
It was simply an example... unless you really think they're not going to have different stats for different looking models. I actually thought about putting in a disclaimer about that but ended up coming to the (wrong) conclusion that no one would just jump to the wrong conclusion about it. If the rules for the game are good, I'll use them in the game. If they suck, I'll use them else where. If some universal game gets big in my local area, I'll use them there as well. With a variety of alien subspecies, I can do that. With the same Alien1 design copy pasted into different poses, I can't. My existing aliens army has outlived the original game(s) they were meant for and I couldn't be any happier.
Prodos should make the best and most useful aliens they can for *THEIR* game. I simply think that a variety of types of aliens will help that significantly more than one monolithic human size species.
RiTides wrote: on that note, it really isn't likely only to have the original Alien design, since the movie it's licensing came later... right?
It's a bit confusing. The AVP movies did not distinguish between infants and mature aliens as Prodos seems to. Also, Prodos seems to be relying on James Cameron's views, which have nothing to do with AVP as I understand it.
I like the idea of the multiple Alien sub-species, but I do hope the other models follow the more traditional design. The current ones looks pretty poor over all, though I hope that they introduce more traditional designs into the game.
warboss wrote: It was simply an example... unless you really think they're not going to have different stats for different looking models
No clue what you are on about. I don't know where we disconnected but I agree with you here:
warboss wrote: Prodos should make the best and most useful aliens they can for *THEIR* game.
And not so much here:
warboss wrote: I simply think that a variety of types of aliens will help that significantly more than one monolithic human size species.
At least insofar as we're going with RiTides "variety can't be bad" approach. Two or three variants outside of what we saw in Aliens isn't terrible, depending on what they are.
Well, as a non-rabid fan of Aliens, I'm looking forward to whatever comes out here . I think it's a little similar to dealing with comic books- you can only please the hardcore fans so much, you've got to cater to the masses who honestly probably can't tell much difference between which alien came from which movie, etc.
You know, that's what Michael Bay said about Transformers. And while that approach may work with a bazillion dollar summertime popcorn movie I doubt it's quite as sound with a niche market like tabletop wargamers. On the other hand, wargamers have been dealing with miniatures that look far less like xenomorphs for a long time. What Prodos has shown already may not be perfect but it's better than previous similar products. But they do have the license so why not be totally accurate?
Imposter101 wrote: I like the idea of the multiple Alien sub-species, but I do hope the other models follow the more traditional design. The current ones looks pretty poor over all, though I hope that they introduce more traditional designs into the game.
poor? In what way? What do you consider traditional? They've already said smooth and textured heads are in.
RiTides wrote: Well, as a non-rabid fan of Aliens, I'm looking forward to whatever comes out here . I think it's a little similar to dealing with comic books- you can only please the hardcore fans so much, you've got to cater to the masses who honestly probably can't tell much difference between which alien came from which movie, etc.
That is about right ;]
To be more specific we WILL have at leas one model from following sources:
Alien from Alien - Infant Warrior
Alien from Aliens - Warrior
Alien from Aliens 3- Stalker (in fact ,concept based on Alien vs Predator Arcade Game 1994)
More concept taken from:
Alien vs Predator: Requiem
Aliens: Colonial Marines ;]
Alien vs Predator 1 and 2 Video Game 1999 and 2001
Predators Movie !!!!
Alien vs Predator Arcade Game
RiTides wrote: Well, as a non-rabid fan of Aliens, I'm looking forward to whatever comes out here . I think it's a little similar to dealing with comic books- you can only please the hardcore fans so much, you've got to cater to the masses who honestly probably can't tell much difference between which alien came from which movie, etc.
That is about right ;]
To be more specific we WILL have at leas one model from following sources:
Alien from Alien - Infant Warrior
Alien from Aliens - Warrior
Alien from Aliens 3- Stalker (in fact ,concept based on Alien vs Predator Arcade Game 1994)
More concept taken from:
Alien vs Predator: Requiem
Aliens: Colonial Marines ;]
Alien vs Predator 1 and 2 Video Game 1999 and 2001
Predators Movie !!!!
Alien vs Predator Arcade Game
So quite a lot ;]
That sounds like a very satisfying bit of variety!
Imposter101 wrote: I like the idea of the multiple Alien sub-species, but I do hope the other models follow the more traditional design. The current ones looks pretty poor over all, though I hope that they introduce more traditional designs into the game.
poor? In what way? What do you consider traditional? They've already said smooth and textured heads are in.
The models shown look like generic stunted space aliens. They have a bannana shaped head and look way too organic.
OTOH, if they're not making named characters (yet), they won't be making the Newborn either (yet).
And the different types of Alien thing is hardly minutiae. Look at the difference between the Alien3/dog/runner Alien and the AvP/warrior Aliens that we've already seen. There is literally that big a difference between all the types of Alien (except for the first two who only have different heads/hands).
Ktulhut wrote: OTOH, if they're not making named characters (yet), they won't be making the Newborn either (yet).
And the different types of Alien thing is hardly minutiae. Look at the difference between the Alien3/dog/runner Alien and the AvP/warrior Aliens that we've already seen. There is literally that big a difference between all the types of Alien (except for the first two who only have different heads/hands).
The species in the fourth movie weren't even pure Xenomorphs, they where genetically modified and cloned from mixed DNA. The only reason the torso and head look the same in Res and the first AVP film is because they used the same moulds to cut costs.
Ktulhut wrote: OTOH, if they're not making named characters (yet), they won't be making the Newborn either (yet).
And the different types of Alien thing is hardly minutiae. Look at the difference between the Alien3/dog/runner Alien and the AvP/warrior Aliens that we've already seen. There is literally that big a difference between all the types of Alien (except for the first two who only have different heads/hands).
Mate, you're speaking as a fan, speaking as a layperson, who just quite enjoyed some of the movies, they ain't all that different.
That's why you can show a picture of any Alien from any movie to any person with a passing acquaintance with them and they'll go "ooh, that's an Alien from those movies"
Manchu wrote: So is the argument that Prodos should make different kinds of xenomorphs because people who aren't fans won't notice the difference?
That just sounds like the no true scotsman fallacy to me. I just want some badass Giger/Cameron Xenomorphs, and if they can do the Predators like that (and by that high detail sculpts) then I'm fairly sure they'd be able to do some of the more biomechnical elements of the xenomorphs in their later designs.
Ktulhut wrote: OTOH, if they're not making named characters (yet), they won't be making the Newborn either (yet).
And the different types of Alien thing is hardly minutiae. Look at the difference between the Alien3/dog/runner Alien and the AvP/warrior Aliens that we've already seen. There is literally that big a difference between all the types of Alien (except for the first two who only have different heads/hands).
Mate, you're speaking as a fan, speaking as a layperson, who just quite enjoyed some of the movies, they ain't all that different.
That's why you can show a picture of any Alien from any movie to any person with a passing acquaintance with them and they'll go "ooh, that's an Alien from those movies"
Broadly speaking yes, but since they've pretty much said they'll be making each type, it's moot anyway. I'm just saying that there are, in fact, easily noticeable differences between the designs. Even my dear old dad can tell that not all Aliens are created equal.
Alien from Alien - Infant Warrior Alien from Aliens - Warrior Alien from Aliens 3- Stalker (in fact ,concept based on Alien vs Predator Arcade Game 1994)
More concept taken from: Alien vs Predator: Requiem Aliens: Colonial Marines ;] Alien vs Predator 1 and 2 Video Game 1999 and 2001 Predators Movie !!!! Alien vs Predator Arcade Game
I endorse your choice of sources! Hope there's a big focus on the whole aliens / colonial marines thing. The latest PC game sounded pretty poorly done sadly, but I love that setting.
Mate, you're speaking as a fan, speaking as a layperson, who just quite enjoyed some of the movies, they ain't all that different.
I disagree wrt alien vs dog alien. Having only seen the first two movies before that (ie.l no comics etc.) I wasn't a huge fan, but on the spot it was very much "awesome, it takes on aspects of its host!". Alien 1 vs Aliens however yeah, I didn't know of the distinction. I like it now I've heard it though!
Manchu wrote: So is the argument that Prodos should make different kinds of xenomorphs because people who aren't fans won't notice the difference?
No, they will obviously need different sorts in order to expand the game past the most basic starting point, but when the essence of every iteration is basically similar, with a few details changed, this discussion of which version is "better" when they all, to my casual inspection, look basically the same, just seems a bit daft.
azreal13 wrote: To be more specific we WILL have at leas one model from following sources:
Spoiler:
Alien from Alien - Infant Warrior
Alien from Aliens - Warrior
Alien from Aliens 3- Stalker (in fact ,concept based on Alien vs Predator Arcade Game 1994)
More concept taken from:
Alien vs Predator: Requiem
Aliens: Colonial Marines ;]
Alien vs Predator 1 and 2 Video Game 1999 and 2001
Predators Movie !!!!
Alien vs Predator Arcade Game
I endorse your choice of sources! Hope there's a big focus on the whole aliens / colonial marines thing. The latest PC game sounded pretty poorly done sadly, but I love that setting.
RiTides wrote: Well, as a non-rabid fan of Aliens, I'm looking forward to whatever comes out here . I think it's a little similar to dealing with comic books- you can only please the hardcore fans so much, you've got to cater to the masses who honestly probably can't tell much difference between which alien came from which movie, etc.
That is about right ;]
To be more specific we WILL have at leas one model from following sources:
Alien from Alien - Infant Warrior
Alien from Aliens - Warrior
Alien from Aliens 3- Stalker (in fact ,concept based on Alien vs Predator Arcade Game 1994)
More concept taken from:
Alien vs Predator: Requiem
Aliens: Colonial Marines ;]
Alien vs Predator 1 and 2 Video Game 1999 and 2001
Predators Movie !!!!
Alien vs Predator Arcade Game
azreal13 wrote: Ooh, just thought, Facehuggers and Chestbursters!
Here's hoping they make 'em, and that it's easy to stick 3-6 on a 40mm base. Even though ripper swarms are pants and keep getting worse with each codex, I want to do that simply for the aesthetics.
Agreed, in direct comparison, there are obvious differences, which will allow Prodos to produce distinctly models for different unit types, but they all share an aesthetic which is instantly recognisable and a substantially part of all the variants.
I think the hardcore fans shouldn't be the only ones they cater too, most certainly in this case. There seems to be so many varied layers of where the lines are drawn of what the hardcores want, you aren't gonna please them all.
On the other hand, someone like myself is more likely to get a pack of aliens and have them around if you give me some bull aliens, warriors, dog aliens, a Queen, and so on because it's a nice variety. Just like I'd like a good mix of Predators, even if they have to take some liberty in making up some new stuff. The more static you make the Alien line, the less likely I will be tempted to buy into this.
The game will be story driven. It is set between Alien and Aliens and takes inspiration primarily from the Alien and Predator films as opposed to the crossovers.
The initial release will be with a boxset ala Space Hulk. The initial boxset release will be before the end of 2013 with an initial expansion wave of up to a dozen new models planned for early 2014.
Prodos will be drawing in elements from the expanded universe so there will be plenty of different Alien/Predator/Colonial Marines/Civilian variants. Look out of an Alien from the old AvP Arcade Game!
The gameplay will be based off the Prodos Games engine used in their other game, Warzone Resurrection.
The game will support solo and multiplayer games. The initial boxset will come with a board for more contained focused play but there is also potential for further open combat.
There will be unique “hero” units.
The license does not include Prometheus.
Prodos will be showing off the game at various game conventions as well as a potential inaugural event to celebrate the release.
Really happy with the miniature list - think this is obviously going to be a tough gig for Prodos, but it sounds like they are making an effort at least!
azreal13 wrote: Ooh, just thought, Facehuggers and Chestbursters!
Definitely! There could be all kinds of interesting scenarios with their use, and I'm sure the designers can come up with a cool (but horrifying!) mechanic for their use..
The game will be story driven. It is set between Alien and Aliens and takes inspiration primarily from the Alien and Predator films as opposed to the crossovers.
The initial release will be with a boxset ala Space Hulk. The initial boxset release will be before the end of 2013 with an initial expansion wave of up to a dozen new models planned for early 2014.
Prodos will be drawing in elements from the expanded universe so there will be plenty of different Alien/Predator/Colonial Marines/Civilian variants. Look out of an Alien from the old AvP Arcade Game!
The gameplay will be based off the Prodos Games engine used in their other game, Warzone Resurrection.
The game will support solo and multiplayer games. The initial boxset will come with a board for more contained focused play but there is also potential for further open combat.
There will be unique “hero” units.
The license does not include Prometheus.
Prodos will be showing off the game at various game conventions as well as a potential inaugural event to celebrate the release.
Excellent. Looking forward to seeing what Mr. Perry has written for you too. Too bad about not getting the Prometheus license though, I'd have loved some Engineer models.
Gotta say, I'm monitoring this thread, the one over at AvPG and your Facebook page. I've not been this excited for a miniatures release, ever. Keep the info coming guys!
More open game = standard tabletop game? I was worried it would be too restrictive in SpaceHulk Aliens version--but this sounds promising (plus how would they capture the Predator feel)?
