nomotog wrote: It's because elves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought of as female traits.
Yeah, and dwarves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought as male traits. Female dwarves are pretty rare, much more so than male elves. But they can be pretty cool to play. Axe to the knee!
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Slarg232 wrote: Indeed, one of the running gags in Looking for Group (A online comic about a group of adventurers) is that no one can tell if the male elf ranger is a dude or lady when they first meet him
Well, he has been with his pet panther since the very first strip and only recently learned that it was a she, so he is not really in a position to complain .
Slarg232 wrote: and in Order of the Stick it's never stated if Vesuvious is a male or female (and is often the butt of jokes because of it).
He is clearly one of the most powerful character of the band nonetheless. And he is pretty cool for an elf.
Melissia wrote: Which is kind of silly really, most of the time the male elves in games just have realistic proportions instead of massive bulging muscles like everyone else, and that makes them "feminine" or some other crap.
Well, they usually also lack any kind of facial hair (unlike their usual rival the dwarves).
nomotog wrote: It's because elves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought of as female traits.
Yeah, and dwarves are often depicted embodying what are commonly thought as male traits. Female dwarves are pretty rare, much more so than male elves. But they can be pretty cool to play. Axe to the knee!
Both depictions make sense though. Dwarfs, who mainly live underground in mine shafts, have to do physically heavy work which is something that's mostly attributed to men due to their superior given physique for said jobs. Elves, however, are naturally related to arts, language and elegancy which is an area females tend to excel at.
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
As I said, I'm not touching that nonsense. We already had one thread devolve in to thirty pages of debate because of it, and that was just recently, never mind the long history of such discussions.
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Get those dirty facts and logic away from the comforting happy-go-lucky mindset!
Noone doubts that there is a significant difference between men and women, the problem for some might simply be that those differences are enforced / emphasized by games / works of fantasy. Whether that is a valid concern or not is another issue, it's just a possible reason for said judgements.
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Get those dirty facts and logic away from the comforting happy-go-lucky mindset!
Noone doubts that there is a significant difference between men and women, the problem for some might simply be that those differences are enforced / emphasized by games / works of fantasy. Whether that is a valid concern or not is another issue, it's just a possible reason for said judgements.
Physiological differences between the sexes are enforced by media portrayals of gender stereotypes? So if we make sure that all media references to sexual dimorphism are banned, woman will spontaneously grow stronger?
Hell if its that easy, I'm going to get someone to draw a cartoon depicting me with a 6 pack.
Men and Woman are NOT the same. Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact. That doesn't mean that men are superior, or that woman can't train to develop greater strength.
And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Your getting into the muck when your trying to relate stereotypes to reality. It's a tentative connection at best and kind of a incorporate one to make.
Melissia wrote: I'm not touching THAT level of nonsense with an eleven foot pole.
Well, facial hair is factually considered masculine rather than feminine. The rest may be stupid stereotype, but facial hair is factual . Of course there are exceptions with people that have strange mix of feminine and masculine phenotype, but they are exceptions.
(I am a bit surprised too that men live underground and elves are related to language and stuff like that)
Melissia wrote: We already had one thread devolve in to thirty pages of debate because of it, and that was just recently, never mind the long history of such discussions.
Which one?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Men are biologically inclined to be strong and muscular, and so tend to be generally psychically stronger than women. Thats not sexist, its a biological fact.
Okay.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Not okay. I mean, I fail to see the connection. Dwarves tends to be more muscular than elves, that is true, even though there are impressive exceptions (night elf from warcraft III, way more muscled than any dwarf in the game). There is also the facial hair stuff. Which other stereotypical male and female trait do you speak about? Arts and language are not “feminine”, just open any book related to art history or linguistic and you will find out. Actually, because of the traditional place of women in our society, the end result is that really, you will find much, much more male artists, writers or linguists than female ones. I am pretty sure you will find a lot of example of female peasants working on very hard manual labor, though.
Actually, in the last book I read, La bête humaine, a 1890 book by french writer Zola, which is in no way a feminist book, the strongest (physically) character is clearly, without a trace of doubt, the girl Flore, because she is doing ton of manual labor. However, she is certainly one of the least cultured too, and certainly will not be good at art and language .
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote: Arts and language are not “feminine”, just open any book related to art history or linguistic and you will find out. Actually, because of the traditional place of women in our society, the end result is that really, you will find much, much more male artists, writers or linguists than female ones. I am pretty sure you will find a lot of example of female peasants working on very hard manual labor, though.
These two are attributes most often relate to women, that's where I was getting at. What adds to this point, however, is that women tend to have a lead on men when it comes to language, especially at a younger age. Neuroscience n' stuff. Noone here doubts that there are many women working hard. It's just that there is a noticeable biological difference between men and women that cannot be talked away, no matter how hard you might want it to. These differences are one of the main reasons for certain gender roles and stereotypes still persisting nowadays and those were the main reason for patriarchs that are, fortunately, a thing of the past in civilized countries.
Sigvatr wrote: These two are attributes most often relate to women, that's where I was getting at.
Art and language?
I would have think it was actually sex and children, for some reason.
Really, I have never seen art or language as especially related to women.
Sigvatr wrote: It's just that there is a noticeable biological difference between men and women that cannot be talked away, no matter how hard you might want it to.
Yeah, stuff like penis, vagina and facial hair.
Sigvatr wrote: These differences are one of the main reasons for certain gender roles and stereotypes still persisting nowadays
Nope, totally disagree. Because certainly having no girl out of my 32 students in computer engineering does not come from penis, vaginas or facial hairs. However, society's influence is a very strong influence on this.
Not sure how overall body build and muscle density relates to computer engineering. Not sure how we could tell anything about different brain structure influence on picking computer science as a major if we cannot eliminate the huge bias created by society.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: And thats why Dwarves and Elves display stereotypical male and female traits that are suited to their environments and cultures.
Not okay. I mean, I fail to see the connection.
Sorry, I was referring to the classic and "original" Tolkien-Fantasy Elven and Dwarven archetypes.
Dwarves tends to be more muscular than elves, that is true, even though there are impressive exceptions (night elf from warcraft III, way more muscled than any dwarf in the game). There is also the facial hair stuff. Which other stereotypical male and female trait do you speak about?
I was referring to physical strength.
Elves and Dwarves are of course fictional, so can be depicted in whatever way the author wishes (strong muscular Elves vs lithe and slender Elves, or the "Dwemer" of The Elder Scrolls depicted as human sized Elves with beards). But the original fantasy concepts of Elves and Dwarves as established by Tolkien (drawing inspiration from old folklore) do clearly draw on stereotypical male and female features (physical strength, facial hair, heavier weight for Dwarves; gracefulness, lighter weight and less physical strength for Elves) because the author intended them to.
Arts and language are not “feminine”, just open any book related to art history or linguistic and you will find out. Actually, because of the traditional place of women in our society, the end result is that really, you will find much, much more male artists, writers or linguists than female ones.
Correlation is not causation. Throughout history, until the last half century or so, men had far better access to education so naturally there were more male writers, linguists, mathematicians , scientists, doctors etc. Maybe in a few more decades or so of equal access to education for both sexes, we'll know conclusively whether certain sexes/genders naturally excel at certain tasks.
That not to say that one sex is superior to the other, or that a person can't/shouldn't do a task more commonly associated with the opposite sex if they want to, it just means that they'll be at a disadvantage and may have to work harder to achieve it.
I am pretty sure you will find a lot of example of female peasants working on very hard manual labor, though.
Which would qualify as training, as I said in the part you neglected to quote. The fact that they did hard manual labour helped improve their physical strength, but has nothing to do with whether or not one sex is more biologically inclined to developing physical strength.
Aggregated data of absolute strength indicates that females have 40-60% the upper body strength of males, and 70-75% the lower body strength.[61] The difference in strength relative to body mass is less pronounced in trained individuals.
Actually, in the last book I read, La bête humaine, a 1890 book by french writer Zola, which is in no way a feminist book, the strongest (physically) character is clearly, without a trace of doubt, the girl Flore, because she is doing ton of manual labor. However, she is certainly one of the least cultured too, and certainly will not be good at art and language .
Nope, totally disagree. Because certainly having no girl out of my 32 students in computer engineering does not come from penis, vaginas or facial hairs. However, society's influence is a very strong influence on this.
Wait, what? You're a computer engineering professor? I thought you work for GW as implied by your sig?
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Sorry, I was referring to the classic and "original" Tolkien-Fantasy Elven and Dwarven archetypes.
Me too.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: But the original fantasy concepts of Elves and Dwarves as established by Tolkien (drawing inspiration from old folklore) do clearly draw on stereotypical male and female features (physical strength, facial hair, heavier weight for Dwarves; gracefulness, lighter weight and less physical strength for Elves) because the author intended them to.
He did? I do not even remember the elves from LOTR as being less muscular than the dwarves. Maybe I read it too long ago. Also, men tend to be taller than women, but elves are pretty much always taller than dwarves.
Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Maybe in a few more decades or so of equal access to education for both sexes, we'll know conclusively whether certain sexes/genders naturally excel at certain tasks.
So, if we do not know yet and have no hint that women are better at art and language, why say that elves are more feminine because they are more proficient with art and language?
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote: Wait, what? You're a computer engineering professor? I thought you work for GW as implied by your sig?
I am a PhD student, and my sig' is just a parody of H.B.M.C's. But it is also 100% true: I do not in any way speak on behalf of GW!
Melissia wrote: What does any of this have to do with the topic of people playing the opposite gender on video games?
Melissia wrote: What does any of this have to do with the topic of people playing the opposite gender on video games?
Well the study was about how men playing female characters act different then women playing female characters and it implied that there was some inherent differences between the sexes that was making them jump more or something.
I am a PhD student, and my sig' is just a parody of H.B.M.C's. But it is also 100% true: I do not in any way speak on behalf of GW!
I fething knew it and I laughed out loud on confirmation.
Yes, elf female comment was a joke. I agree with Melissia in that elves in games are often just like normal men, lacking the insane bulging muscles of what is usually the "default" male human. I also have actually played female characters in games, but I usually go for male.
Ashiraya wrote: I dunno, I do not find it that different to play a male character... I can basically act exactly the same way without it seeming immersion-breaking.
Not surprising given that most of the time, characters in video games go around bashing and killing pretty much everything in sight. So most players should be quite used to their character behaving in a very different manner than they do themselves, otherwise… it is pretty bad .
Ashiraya wrote: I dunno, I do not find it that different to play a male character... I can basically act exactly the same way without it seeming immersion-breaking.
Not surprising given that most of the time, characters in video games go around bashing and killing pretty much everything in sight. So most players should be quite used to their character behaving in a very different manner than they do themselves, otherwise… it is pretty bad .
There's that, of course, but remember that I'm a roleplayer.
I dunno. I played quite a while on the german Roleplaying Server "Aldor". And I gotta say, while I dont find "opposite sex of player" creepy in regular play, I often feel akward when dealing with them in Roleplay. Often, they seem a bit off, and it only gets worse once relationships get into the picture.
And I will admit, when im waiting for something, or just genreally derping around, I tend to hammer that Jump Button like a looney.
Ashiraya wrote: I dunno, I do not find it that different to play a male character... I can basically act exactly the same way without it seeming immersion-breaking.
Not surprising given that most of the time, characters in video games go around bashing and killing pretty much everything in sight. So most players should be quite used to their character behaving in a very different manner than they do themselves, otherwise… it is pretty bad .
There's that, of course, but remember that I'm a roleplayer.
I figure this is relevant. Not sure if I can find parts of the episode that sum it up fully enough.
Probably NSFW so keep an eye out for that. It's also probably best if I don't have a video directly to it here.
Ashiraya wrote: There's that, of course, but remember that I'm a roleplayer.
Is roleplaying not just about giving your omnicidal maniac character reasons to go around killing every mod in sight ?
Reminds me of that RPG I found on TVTropes :
http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html
Ashiraya wrote: There's that, of course, but remember that I'm a roleplayer.
Is roleplaying not just about giving your omnicidal maniac character reasons to go around killing every mod in sight ?
Reminds me of that RPG I found on TVTropes :
http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html
Hey, only three or four of my characters are omnicidal maniacs!
Ashiraya wrote: There's that, of course, but remember that I'm a roleplayer.
Is roleplaying not just about giving your omnicidal maniac character reasons to go around killing every mod in sight ?
Reminds me of that RPG I found on TVTropes :
http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html
Hey, only three or four of my characters are omnicidal maniacs!
While mine aren't all omnicidal they do all contain a slightly twisted sense of humour and a highly developed spite gland.
Ashiraya wrote: Hey, only three or four of my characters are omnicidal maniacs!
Oh, really? I never thought you would play omnicidal maniacs. You seemed more like a person who would play goody-two-shoes pacifist hippies that believe strongly in the magical power of friendship Well, I guess those characters of yours that are not ominicidal maniacs are genocidal madmen, or at the very least mass-murderers, are they not .
In City of Heroes, my Invulnerable/Energy Melee Tank was a 5'0" slender girl in a tee-shirt and baggy jeans. Meanwhile my Sylvari Warrior in Guild Wars 2... uses a rifle as her main weapon. And I already mentioned my Hobbit Guardian from LotRO.
Just started a new Skyrim playthrough.
i was originally intending to create a feminine, lithe assassin who relied on stealth and cunning...And I've now ended up with a heavily muscled lightly armoured, scar-faced half blind war-painted female Nord Werewolf who only uses stealth to sneak into position before going berserk and tearing the enemy to shreds with a pair of war axes.
Ashiraya wrote: There's that, of course, but remember that I'm a roleplayer.
Is roleplaying not just about giving your omnicidal maniac character reasons to go around killing every mod in sight ?
Reminds me of that RPG I found on TVTropes :
http://johntynes.com/revland2000/rl_powerkill.html
Hey, only three or four of my characters are omnicidal maniacs!
While mine aren't all omnicidal they do all contain a slightly twisted sense of humour and a highly developed spite gland.
Ashiraya wrote: Hey, only three or four of my characters are omnicidal maniacs!
Oh, really? I never thought you would play omnicidal maniacs. You seemed more like a person who would play goody-two-shoes pacifist hippies that believe strongly in the magical power of friendship Well, I guess those characters of yours that are not ominicidal maniacs are genocidal madmen, or at the very least mass-murderers, are they not .
Let's see here.
An overpowered malicious grimdark mary sue snowflake female Death Knight (My main, and a character that I am really proud of. Very fleshed out and deep under the iron surface)
A calm, calculating, surprisingly civilised and patient but no less zealous female Warlock/Necromancer.
A usually silent, brooding, efficient male Death Knight (I have three DKs now- still need more) who likes to pretend to the foe that he is a cannibalistic blood-crazed maniac just for their entertaining reactions.
A male rogue who never wanted to be evil, got forced in and is being slowly corrupted.
And a male Death Knight who is presumably evil due to his loyalty but I have not had time to flesh him out yet.
That's five, yes. That leaves six of my characters that are non-evil, instead varying levels of good. Interestingly most of those are male.
I find it difficult to roleplay a truly good character. I know how to do it, I can do it, but it just does not hold my interest as much as being evil does.
In the same way my female characters has recieved far more attention than my male ones.
.
