Thanks for that, NoseGoblin. We used to do this at my work as well, and we always called it "Urethane casting". Mold made from silicone, with polyurethane (PU) of varying set times / viscosity / and of course durometer (hardness when cured) for what would actually be poured in to form the casts.
This is the process Wehrkind and others use which most wargamers refer to as "hand cast resin". I.e. urethane.
There is one more thing that might be added to the list and that is urethane foam. It's common for making visual mockups in industrial design, but has also become common for casting large scale one piece scenics and to some extent really large models (I believe some Titans were made this way).
Commonly you would cast a thin layer of normal Polyurethane resin to catch all the details, and fill the rest with the expanding foam. This is good to make it sturdy and lightweight at the same time. MAS uses it for some of their terrain. If done properly without skipping the detail layer - the only thing telling it's not a solid resin cast is the weight and the porous underside. Even here you get some variants in density.
A block of cast "raw" PU foam is hard to the touch, lightweight an porous and very easy to work with (carving, sanding, lathing). Needs a lot of surface priming and wet sanding to get a nice finish. Oh and it's not recommended to work with this stuff without wearing a mask.
While this is not strictly figure related I would like a complete material list including HDF, acrylic and while it might seem silly - even card (pros, cons) as lasercut terrain and models have become a big part of the hobby and I can't say I personally have had much experience with the different wood/paper materials and how they take to glue and paint, if they need surface prep and all that.
Wehrkind wrote:Drakerys said High Strength PVC as I recall. Or very hard pvc... it is in one of the posts in the thread today.
ABS is pretty close to HIPS (being a styrene derivative.) Apparently what Lego are made of.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From zreef in the Drak KS thread:
The FAQ is pretty clear on this:
What kind of plastic do you use for the miniatures ?
Our cumulated previous experience with plastic miniatures on other endeavours has made us decide on a very hard PVC plastic.
Isn't the new Wyrd plastics made of ABS? or are they hips?
Someone on the Fallen Frontiers chat said that the term "hard pvc" is just a marketing gimmick. Don't know what his credentials are or what knowledge he has.
It's not about achieving detail, sure it does lose some detail vs resin, but expected. Quite few restic/pvc minis have captured prety damn good detail.
But this was never a matter of detail But the pain in the ass it is to clean up the material.
IT'S NOT FUN!
RiTides wrote:From that list, though, I consider Myth, Rivet Wars, and Arcadia Quest true board games with a lot of sculpts with exaggerated features. PVC works fine for those kinds of board game pieces, many of which will never need to be painted.
Wrath of Kings, much more of a wargame, will be the real test.
Aye, if WoK fails me, it will be the last wargame bought from CMON, last wargame bought in this material.
Wyrd plastics are produced by Wargames Factory, and are HIPS.
This thread is definitely revealing a lot of uncertainty about what is what... I will be putting together an article with some of the information all in one place (likely this weekend), unless someone beats me to it.
Aye, if WoK fails me, it will be the last wargame bought from CMON, last wargame bought in this material.
Ball is their court, see what they can do.
I think there are quite a few people in this boat. Whether they pledged or not I feel like this one could have a huge impact. On people's views of PVC/Restic and of CMoN. I know it's a big deal for me anyway.
I've decided to declare as strict a ban on restic as I can. I've sold nearly all of my Mantic KoW restic, and while I built and painted my Deadzone pledge, it was a slog.
The Myth restic appears better, although the soft detail appears to be more of a feature than a bug there.
PP restic might still make me cry, but I shouldn't have to buy too much more of it.
scarletsquig wrote: I currently own over 200 restic Mantic Basileans. All unassembled, with the mould lines half-heartedly removed on a dozen angels, a few knights cleaned up here and there, etc... after receiving them last year. The motivation is not exactly there.
I estimate 100 hours total just to clean and assemble the lot.
Then another 100 hours to paint.
This is the problem with restic, a model should never take as long to clean and assemble as it does to paint. I like painting. Cleaning, bending and assembling... feth no. Stabby with the knive, inhaly with the superglue. No fun.
I was going to try out cleaning, assembling and painting a few of the Angels - either a group of 3 or 6. It turns out that I have lost them. Along with quite a few other things, and some weapons that are earmarked for Bob. Pretty much everything from the KS bar the Ogres, actually.
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Alpharius wrote: Well, I don't think DBX met expectations in terms of a 'final pledge total', maybe?
So maybe people are starting to vote with their wallets, even if only a little bit?
DBX still made quite a bit, but a lot less than DBO, right?
It was an odd campaign. Especially since their "all the marbles/minecart/etc" level was changed towards the end to be "actually, you know what? it's not everything after all - now please buy these add-ons as well!"
Having survived Sedition wars, I feel I have earned a stripe or badge, fulling convincing me I can survive any modeling project. I CALL UPON THEE, OLD METAL GALRAUCH. I CHALLENGE YOU, HELLCANNON!
Stitch that kickstarter-exclusive Sedition Wars cloth patch onto your sleeve brother. It's original meaning has been subverted to being a survivor's badge of both honour and shame.
Wehrkind wrote: Alright, so I think I have an actually useful agenda item for us (beyond reminding each other not to buy more models we hate.)
In a lot of Kickstarters and forum threads there is a great deal of confusion about what "restic", resin, PVC, hard PVC, hard plastic and HIPs actually mean. It would be nice to develop at least a cultural norm for using only specific words for these different materials such that we could eliminate confusion and publicly shame those companies who try to keep that confusion going. For example, the Drakyris KS which refers to its hard PVC as "hard plastic" is confusing, and perhaps not intentionally so, because people ask about hard plastic (which PVC is) when they really mean HIPS like GW and Wargames factor use.
So, to educate ourselves, here are some relevant articles on the topic of the various types of plastics we see:
Resin : The resin we think of when we think of high end boutique miniatures. Hand cast, hard to do in very large volume. Holds detail very well, and is easy to clean up. Also called Urethane Resin, or Epoxy Resin, which seem to be subsets. Urethane (poly or otherwise) are the normal sorts you see. Material properties can vary a good bit, with Ramshackle using a somewhat brittle resin that is stinky while other brands (and many home done models) use a less brittle and not so stinky resin.
PVC (poly vinyl chloride) Same sort of stuff they use in making pipes. Privateer Press, Mantic and others use this material as it is much cheaper to make the molds compared to HIPS, but can be mass produced better compared to resin. Downsides are that it tends not to hold sharp detail well, and filing/cleaning is a pain due to the toughness of the material. Goes by the other names of "restic" and "plastic". Huge range of variability in the final product due to huge range of variability in material properties.
HIPS (High Impact Polystyrene) The kind of plastic used in modeling kits, GW and Wargames Factory models. Usually considered the gold standard for mass production, as details can be very fine and parts fitted together very cleanly, as well as being easy to clean up on the user's end. Plastic glue can be used instead of super glue to weld pieces together. Downsides on the producer's side is that the mold tooling is very expensive, and you cannot have undercuts.
So what are Dreamblade/Mageknight/Heroclix figures made out of?
But...but...but the minis are so cool. I think you are right though. I am thinking of, maybe, for once, waiting for retail anyway. That way I can see the miniatures once (if they reach that stage) they are in people's hands.
On the restic front the only experience I have is with Mantic. My thoughts are in line with most others, it is not a terrible material for larger miniatures but with rank and file, and organic shapes it can be hideous.
The Basileans I got from the KOW Kickstarter will forever be untouched as too much work is involved to get them to anywhere near the state I would want them. I think they improved the mix or quality control for Deadzone but it is still far from perfect. I just long for the day that most companies can release their models on proper hard plastic sprues, and having worked with Wyrd's plastics I am prepared to pay for it.
Jim Solo: I am 95% certain that any prepaints are a PVC variety. Rackham's pre-paints are, though a somewhat soft PVC more akin to Bones than PP's stuff.
Basically, if it is soft it is some sort of PVC. You can get flexible urethane resins (Smooth On has a lot and I have tried one out) but they are different than PVC in noticeable ways, mostly the texture and sheen they form when cured. The flexible urethanes I have seen look a bit like solidified maple syrup on the thinner bits.
Thraxas Of Turai wrote: I am considering pledging on the Drakerys Kickstarter. The miniatures are a complete unknown quantity. Please help dissuade me brothers.
Nay, brother, do not waver in your conviction. Though tempted by the seductress, once in her clutches her obfuscation will fall and you will be face to face with the gorgon that Restic is.
Have patience, and see the models with your own eyes (i.e., wait for retail), not through rose colored browser windows.
Yeah, all the prepaints are vinyl based thermal plastics that have various additives and whatnot to make them somewhat pliable. This increases their durability and makes them less likely to break when people just chuck them all in a box.
Reaper made their legendary encounters line of prepaints. Bones as a brand was born when they were asked to produce some of their legendary encounters line without the paint. Bones are explicitly the same material as prepainted miniatures. They just don't get prepainted before they get sold.
An unknown company using an 'unknown' material - "Super Awesome Better than Any other version 'HARD' PVC"?
Yeah - no.
If you're tempted, pledge the minimum so you can have access to the Pledge Manager and wait and see if they can actually pull this off.
Wise words my brother.
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Thraxas Of Turai wrote: But...but...but the minis are so cool. I think you are right though. I am thinking of, maybe, for once, waiting for retail anyway. That way I can see the miniatures once (if they reach that stage) they are in people's hands.
On the restic front the only experience I have is with Mantic. My thoughts are in line with most others, it is not a terrible material for larger miniatures but with rank and file, and organic shapes it can be hideous.
The Basileans I got from the KOW Kickstarter will forever be untouched as too much work is involved to get them to anywhere near the state I would want them. I think they improved the mix or quality control for Deadzone but it is still far from perfect. I just long for the day that most companies can release their models on proper hard plastic sprues, and having worked with Wyrd's plastics I am prepared to pay for it.
There minis, as shown are resin masters.
Like a Venus Fly trap, it will lure you in causing grief and regret for temptation.
An unknown company using an 'unknown' material - "Super Awesome Better than Any other version 'HARD' PVC"?
Yeah - no.
If you're tempted, pledge the minimum so you can have access to the Pledge Manager and wait and see if they can actually pull this off.
Just to be clear, although the company is new everyone in the company is not and has experience from many projects (read the bios). So its not really an "unknown" company, its a new company with known people that have done quality work (though that is up to personal opinion).
As for the material, they also have previous experience with PVC. From the Drakerys kickstarter thread one of their previous customers said this:
For anyone wondering, the Restic minis in the Escape boardgame are quite good given the material. They're a pretty soft blend, but the detail is good, light on the mold lines and well placed. I would expect improvement here.
So its not quite as unknown as you make it out to be. Whether or not you choose to back it is on you, but lets at least put forth all the facts.
Apparently they're getting away from the "soft blend" PVC and going with "harder"... it's not the kind of thing I'm going to chance until they've tried it out and shown it to actually be better, personally.
Yeah its unclear exactly what you will get, but at least they know the material and have seemingly had success with it. So it is not a shot in the dark.
I am in because they seem to be pretty open to suggestions and have allowed backers to take part in the creative process (to some extent). It is a fun kickstarter to be involved in. The whole thing is a WIP, but has a solid foundation (rules, models, background). To me this is what kickstarting is all about, taking a risk and getting to help shape a future product. Who knows how it will turn out, but I am having fun during the process of it all.
From what I gathered from the other thread on Drak, some of the guys working on it are former Rackham guys. You would be hard pressed to find someone who loves Rackham models more than me!
Then again, "I used to work for Rackham" might mean "I made awesome metal models that people still love to collect and paint" or "I decided that making prepainted PVC models to support our game that not many people played outside of France was a great move, transferred a huge chunk of our capital towards producing that, and sunk the company."
So... being a Rackham guy can go either way really.
basement.dweller wrote: As long as you are getting your moneys worth in fun that's fine I guess. The house always wins when gambling though, until you stop playing
An unknown company using an 'unknown' material - "Super Awesome Better than Any other version 'HARD' PVC"?
Yeah - no.
If you're tempted, pledge the minimum so you can have access to the Pledge Manager and wait and see if they can actually pull this off.
Just to be clear, although the company is new everyone in the company is not and has experience from many projects (read the bios). So its not really an "unknown" company, its a new company with known people that have done quality work (though that is up to personal opinion).
As for the material, they also have previous experience with PVC. From the Drakerys kickstarter thread one of their previous customers said this:
For anyone wondering, the Restic minis in the Escape boardgame are quite good given the material. They're a pretty soft blend, but the detail is good, light on the mold lines and well placed. I would expect improvement here.
So its not quite as unknown as you make it out to be. Whether or not you choose to back it is on you, but lets at least put forth all the facts.
It is a new company that rather strangely and aggressively wants to in no way be affiliated with their past efforts.
They've never tried anything on this scale using this material.
I'd say that's about as 'unknown' as it gets, especially concerning a Kickstarter using a material that's pretty much failed to 'deliver the goods'/live up to the promises and hype.
zreef wrote:Yeah its unclear exactly what you will get, but at least they know the material and have seemingly had success with it. So it is not a shot in the dark.
No warning bells there, right!
Feel free to pledge and roll the dice/accept the risk, but for me?
I'm all set with PVC 'on spec' for the foreseeable future.
Feel free to pledge and roll the dice/accept the risk, but for me?
I'm all set with PVC 'on spec' for the foreseeable future.
I'll wait for retail - and maybe not even then.
Not really no ... no more than someone saying they will do resin miniatures. I have seen resin that is good and that is bad. I have seen good resin cast poorly. I have seen poor resin cast well (though gaming with is often terrible). I have seen metal miniatures come out of the same mold differently, one perfectly cast one terribly cast (bolt action). So you never really know what you are going to get until you get it. The only certain material is HIPS and even there the sprue contact points can be placed terribly where you are then stuck cleaning and green stuffing things together. Or the model can be fit poorly from the various pieces.
So in my mind, there is inherent risk in any kickstarter in which you cannot see the minis in person (i.e. all of them that are not a glorified pre-order system). I go into it with that in mind. Heck I order BA stuff knowing that its a roll of the dice, but I know that I can work with whatever I get and get a good end result. In my old age I have just learned to not get worked up about things in my hobbies. It really is far more relaxing that way. I save all my angst and anger for "real life" nonsense.
Yeah, I'm not really getting 'worked up' about it, and I'm able to balance by hobby with 'real life' fairly effectively as well, but thanks for the concern, I guess?
I've yet to see a miniature wargaming Kickstarter using "PVC" deliver what I'd consider a 'quality' product.
As a side note, let's leave the comments about people getting "all worked up" to another thread. It is a pretty repugnant line of comment to make in general when referring to posts saying "Eh, not interested, I don't like the material" and the like, and especially in a thread about how much trouble PVC is an how we need to stop buying into it and getting disappointed.
As an aside to the aside, it is interesting how effectively the internet generates new ways of being offensive and passive aggressive about people disagreeing with you. Asserting that people are getting worked up over things when they are making comments is just the latest in the line it seems.
First of let me say I am sorry to Alpharius and Werhkind. My post was not meant as a criticism of anyone, but my personal view point of how I approach my hobby.
It was a post about me, not anyone else in the thread. I literally meant what I posted -- In my old age I have just learned to not get worked up about things in my hobbies. It really is far more relaxing that way. I save all my angst and anger for "real life" nonsense. -- This means that I (me personally) do not get worked up about things in my hobbies (as in I do not let things upset me even if I get a dud miniature) because I have a lot of other things on my plate in my life. This is why I stopped playing in tournaments, because they would work me up. So no implications, no passive aggressiveness, etc.
If you do not like PVC that is ok! The material is controversial, I just happen to have a different opinion on it that what is expressed in this thread.
It is a thread about reminding each other to stop Kickstarting PVC though You were kind of walking into an AA meeting and saying "Hey, who wants to hit the bar after? First round's on me!"
Speaking of KS pvc, I just got my Relic Knights package #1. I'll let you know how that goes.
It is a thread about reminding each other to stop Kickstarting PVC though You were kind of walking into an AA meeting and saying "Hey, who wants to hit the bar after? First round's on me!"
Speaking of KS pvc, I just got my Relic Knights package #1. I'll let you know how that goes.
No problem! I just don't always word things well. Fair enough point -- my post is off topic for the thread. I will keep the PVC debate in other threads!
basement.dweller wrote: As long as you are getting your moneys worth in fun that's fine I guess. The house always wins when gambling though, until you stop playing
I never gamble but I do a lot of investing
That is in large gambling. I'm sure you know the statistics of startups that actually survive. It's quite a harsh reality. There is always a risk. Nevermind a KS success - that is no guarantee the product is any good, nor is it a guarantee that the product or company will survive or thrive in the future. Like I said, as long as you are "having fun" and you feel it's worth your money, go right ahead. Personally the equivalence of not gambling in this instance is waiting for the actual product to see if it's worth it. If everybody keeps throwing money at "restic" it's never going to stop or send the message that we as consumers want better quality.
Greed has driven me to buy into what I felt was a good deal in the past. Getting literally hundreds of figures at a good price. Net result = I now own hundreds of figures that I will probably never touch. That is not a good investment in my book. It's leading to basement reminiscent of Scrooge Mcduck's vault. I will take quality over quantity every time.
Someone diving into a pit full of reaper bones and then bouncing up into the blades of a ceiling fan would also be amusing.
While I've advocated for bones to be considered as a different material than the hard grey PVC, the quantity vs quality issue definitely applies there as well. Of all the people I know locally who went in on the first reaper bones kickstarter, only one has actually been working through and painting their miniatures. The rest sort of keep them in a box in their closet and maybe pull one out every now and again.
And given the array of stinkers in terms of sculpts being inappropriate to the material in the first kickstarter, they have a bunch of low detail PVC they'll never get to. Same end result as any restic crap kickstarter.
Quality over quality is definitely a good way to go. I've always advocated a different way to figure out the actual cost of miniatures used in game play or painted.
Take the total amount of money you spent on miniatures and divide it not by the number of miniatures owned, but by the number of miniatures that actually serve a hobby purpose. Either painting or putting them on the table in an actual game. That's your real cost per miniature. And I'm guessing a lot of people who put a few hundred dollars into bones and have painted and used a handful have the end result being the same as if they had paid $50+ per miniature.
Take the total amount of money you spent on miniatures and divide it not by the number of miniatures owned, but by the number of miniatures that actually serve a hobby purpose. Either painting or putting them on the table in an actual game. That's your real cost per miniature. And I'm guessing a lot of people who put a few hundred dollars into bones and have painted and used a handful have the end result being the same as if they had paid $50+ per miniature.
.
This is a great way to figure cost! Though to that I would add assembly as I have fun in putting things together, converting, etc. (though that may vary by person to person).
I think PVC can be done well, it just often is not... I will use DUST as an example. I have a few of these figures and aside rom the bendy guns I quite like them and find their quality to be more than good enough for my purpose. I think the major issue is the quality of the contractor/company performing the service/production.
NoseGoblin wrote: I think PVC can be done well, it just often is not... I will use DUST as an example. I have a few of these figures and aside rom the bendy guns I quite like them and find their quality to be more than good enough for my purpose. I think the major issue is the quality of the contractor/company performing the service/production.
Are they more like reaper bones or prepainted D&D miniatures than the hard grey PVC stuff like Mantic or Privateer?
NoseGoblin wrote: I think PVC can be done well, it just often is not... I will use DUST as an example. I have a few of these figures and aside rom the bendy guns I quite like them and find their quality to be more than good enough for my purpose. I think the major issue is the quality of the contractor/company performing the service/production.
Are they more like reaper bones or prepainted D&D miniatures than the hard grey PVC stuff like Mantic or Privateer?
I do not have the others so I cannot make the comparison, they remind me 'constancy wise' of the little green army men you would get as a kid but with much better detail. and painted in a aggressive primer so the surface can accept paint.
And yeah, I know everyone got caught up in the hype. I think a solid half of the figures are actually alright. I'd recommend eBaying them to recoup your losses
Now there's a brotherhood of knights to help keep the hype at bay and hopefully spare others the pain of a similar encounter.
Woe unto those who have heard the warning and yet do not heed it! The knights they spurn will look upon them an laugh at their folly. Though all those who turn from the pvc way and guard against it's vile depredation will always be welcomed without scorn.
it includes bandsaw, drill, drill press, hopefully a bottle rocket if I can make across the PA boarder in time, blender, microwave, me pissing on it, BBQ or camp fire. Going to see if I can borrow my friend's war hammer.
Not sure what else. Wish I had a golf club.
It will serve better purpose than original intentions.
Take the total amount of money you spent on miniatures and divide it not by the number of miniatures owned, but by the number of miniatures that actually serve a hobby purpose. Either painting or putting them on the table in an actual game. That's your real cost per miniature. And I'm guessing a lot of people who put a few hundred dollars into bones and have painted and used a handful have the end result being the same as if they had paid $50+ per miniature.
.
To be fair, the resitc I own there probably costs me just as much as HIPS or Resin or Classic metal figures by that standard. And the price/model using that metric ....is not good.
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Piston Honda wrote: it includes bandsaw, drill, drill press, hopefully a bottle rocket if I can make across the PA boarder in time, blender, microwave, me pissing on it, BBQ or camp fire. Going to see if I can borrow my friend's war hammer.
Not sure what else. Wish I had a golf club.
It will serve better purpose than original intentions.
Thinking it will be set to Yakety Sax.
Take the total amount of money you spent on miniatures and divide it not by the number of miniatures owned, but by the number of miniatures that actually serve a hobby purpose. Either painting or putting them on the table in an actual game. That's your real cost per miniature. And I'm guessing a lot of people who put a few hundred dollars into bones and have painted and used a handful have the end result being the same as if they had paid $50+ per miniature.
.
To be fair, the resitc I own there probably costs me just as much as HIPS or Resin or Classic metal figures by that standard. And the price/model using that metric ....is not good.
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Piston Honda wrote: it includes bandsaw, drill, drill press, hopefully a bottle rocket if I can make across the PA boarder in time, blender, microwave, me pissing on it, BBQ or camp fire. Going to see if I can borrow my friend's war hammer.
Not sure what else. Wish I had a golf club.
It will serve better purpose than original intentions.
Thinking it will be set to Yakety Sax.
while I'm still pure and have yet too be stained by this terrible evil they call PVC, my wargaming innocence is about to end, since i have made the unforgivasble mistake of pledging on the unholy aberrations that is the relic knights kickstarter. While I understand that no reasons can absolve me of this terrible act, I must say that I was brought on this path by a member of my own family, my brother, who tempted me with those beautiful pictures and renders of minis at a price that seem to defy reason. I should have known better, and refuse to follow him on this perfidious path, yet I succumbed to the temptations, and carelessly chewed on this sinful fruit. Time passed, and I almost forgot this disastrous experience, sometime wondering if it really happened or if it was not only a figment of my imagination playing tricks on me. After all, I reasoned, I've been a modeler and a hobbyist for decades, and I never even seen one of these atrocity, even less possessed one. There's no way that I could have fallen to such an abysmal level of depravity.
They say justice has long arms, yet, at least, theyexist instance of persons who were able to get away with the most terrible crimes, as the example of jack the ripper can attest. Their is no such escape possible with this PVC horror, it will track you down, no matter how many years ago you made the dreadful act of pushing the pledge button. One morning, I received the confirmation that I indeed, had willingly committed this act, I received a message telling me my relic knights was about to ship.
The horror
the horror
the horror
The horror
the horror
the horror
The horror
the horror
the horror
I did not mean for that line to sound quite so rude. Sorry to anyone who feels laughed at. You had no way of knowing exactly how the miniatures you'd get from the KS would turn out in advance.
frozenwastes wrote: I did not mean for that line to sound quite so rude. Sorry to anyone who feels laughed at. You had no way of knowing exactly how the miniatures you'd get from the KS would turn out in advance.
But I did know how my Bones would turn out from the first kickstarter...
I don't consider the reaper bones to really be restic, at least not in the sense that say, Mantic and PP use restic.
Bones is actually both super easy to work with, and dirt cheap. It actually delivers on the promise of restic, although admittedly some details do get washed out. I've painted enough of my Kickstarter bones to know that I love the material.
I keep buying bones at full retail. There are some sculpts where the detail shows great in metal but not in the bendy bonesium. I think if you separate the vampire pledge level into good sculpts and bad sculpts and then figure out what each figure cost you just for the good ones, you are still way, way ahead of retail.
There are just some sculpts that don't work well in bones: Compared with the great ones like this:
frozenwastes wrote: I do still find the people who put $300+ into a Kickstarter and then maybe paint one or two miniatures to be hilarious though.
I laugh about it as well, but only to keep myself from crying...
I'm chalking the Mantic KoW kickstarter up completely as a loss. I did paint all of the figs from Deadzone though.
You know what? The Ogres are actually quite decent models, even in restic. The thing that holds them back at "decent" and prevents them from being "good" is actually Remy's over-detailed sculpting (which makes painting and cleaning a nightmare if you want to do an army) and the limited number of parts (only three torsos, including knock-kneed, 6 heads, most of which are ...crap). If you were painting only 3, or 6 they'd be fine. For an army, they're extraordinarily painful.
frozenwastes wrote: I do still find the people who put $300+ into a Kickstarter and then maybe paint one or two miniatures to be hilarious though.
I laugh about it as well, but only to keep myself from crying...
I'm chalking the Mantic KoW kickstarter up completely as a loss. I did paint all of the figs from Deadzone though.
You know what? The Ogres are actually quite decent models, even in restic. The thing that holds them back at "decent" and prevents them from being "good" is actually Remy's over-detailed sculpting (which makes painting and cleaning a nightmare if you want to do an army) and the limited number of parts (only three torsos, including knock-kneed, 6 heads, most of which are ...crap). If you were painting only 3, or 6 they'd be fine. For an army, they're extraordinarily painful.
I grabbed a few in a trade, and I'm going to paint them up for my eventual Kingdoms of Men army. I'm disenheartened, as I was actually considering building them up to a full army...
Polonius wrote: I don't consider the reaper bones to really be restic, at least not in the sense that say, Mantic and PP use restic.
Bones is actually both super easy to work with, and dirt cheap. It actually delivers on the promise of restic, although admittedly some details do get washed out. I've painted enough of my Kickstarter bones to know that I love the material.
I had a few Bones models before the KS, and Bones does what it says on the tin. I don't consider it to be in the same class as restic. Bones provided me with all of the Pathfinder/FRPG models I'll ever need at a decent price, as well as quite a few things I can use elsewhere.
Sedition Wars offered "A Deep Space Horror board game with 50 amazing miniatures from Mike McVey! Sedition Wars : Battle for Alabaster represents the best that miniatures gaming has to offer! The game contains – 50 highly detailed 28mm miniatures..."
NoseGoblin wrote: I think PVC can be done well, it just often is not... I will use DUST as an example. I have a few of these figures and aside rom the bendy guns I quite like them and find their quality to be more than good enough for my purpose. I think the major issue is the quality of the contractor/company performing the service/production.
Are they more like reaper bones or prepainted D&D miniatures than the hard grey PVC stuff like Mantic or Privateer?
Somewhere in between, it is somewhat bendy like mage knight figures but harder, but as hard as the grey PVC material
Unfortunately, my only bones purchase was a giant with a sword so soft and flexible that it didn't even make sense to try to bend it from it's natural "U" shape
I ordered it online, so while I would consider a Bones model purchase due to the price, I'd have to see it first and buy it in a store.
Other restic, without such an insanely low price, and which claim detail levels that don't match reality and are prone to terrible mold lines, are a non-starter to me. I might make an exception for models with really large, exaggerated features (like Mantic's Abyssal Golems, which I have). But the delicate things which are shown in concept art often just aren't a suitable match for this material, and can turn out terribly, as we've seen (and paid for) numerous times now.
RiTides wrote: Unfortunately, my only bones purchase was a giant with a sword so soft and flexible that it didn't even make sense to try to bend it from it's natural "U" shape
Did you try using very hot water? I've seen extremely bent pieces snap back into place with a few seconds in hot water. bones seems to have a memory, and you don't even need to reshape it.
Its not just the shape- it's the "Wehrkind Spongy Factor" (TM). Certain bones models have features that are really soft for whatever reason. He did a thorough review of this effect previously, along with a video- I'll find the link for it later, unless someone beats me to it.
Also in the video, he says his username, and I bet almost everyone has been saying it wrong before now
Basement Dweller might be the first person to guess it correctly My usernames used to give my old WoW guild fits, especially the bad literal translations into Cantonese. Good times
I think you'll find your storm giant's sword isn't too bad RiTides. I had the same thing with flaccid blade there and after some hot water and stretching it is good now. Still moves out of the way if you touch it, but goes back to where it should.
Cat interruption happens right at 4:30 . I especially like how you completely ignore it and attempt to soldier on in your scientific analysis of the "WSF"...
Spend a little time here and ignoring my super needy cats becomes kind of second nature Pudding isn't so bad, but Rogies... good lord, banshees read about him on the internet for pointers.
Bones is my second-favorite medium right now. It's easy to work with in terms of cleaning and painting (no need to prime it!), and it's cheap enough to warrant impulse-buying half a dozen minis. It's also an excellent medium for beginners. I've introduced two nephews to miniature painting with Bones minis, and they loved the experience.
Are some of the Bones sculpts kind of crappy? Yeah. Turns out most of Reaper's sculpts are kind of crappy. Just don't buy those ones.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Are some of the Bones sculpts kind of crappy? Yeah. Turns out most of Reaper's sculpts are kind of crappy. Just don't buy those ones.
This is good advice.
But I come to you now, brothers, with a tale of victory!
Draekerys is at a close (in about 4 hours) and I have gazed upon its temptations, tempered my purchasing impulse, and, thanks to a great fortitude afforded by our fellowship, have not pledged!
Rejoice! This beast rears up at full height, its massive weight beared, eyes blazing hatred -- at least I think they're eyes -- and with a death roar is laid low by the Knights Plastic, succumbing to not-yet-dulled blades and heavy rorschach-esque shields.
I congratulate you on your restraint, brother. I wish Drakerys all the best as they attempt to tame this beast... may the fingers of their backers be spared.
Soooo, has anyone got their Relic Knights pledges yet? A buddy and I split a Gotta Get Em All + extras and we're kind of dreading the arrival. I get that white PVC type things don't photograph well. Bones are actually a bit better in person, so its pretty much impossible to tell what's going on from the previews.
Three of the local gamers received theirs. Wehrkind is one of them, and gave his initial impressions here in the Relic Knights thread. It is definitely a mixed bag, some good, some bad.
Another of the locals got his, was excited by it, then posted this later after I shared our logo with the local group:
Yeah, after building all day, I think I want to join the Knights of Restic as well.
Ow.
Still, I know he and the other local gamer got together to play it yesterday, and liked some of the models... so like I said, a mixed bag of results.
Another had this to say after seeing our coat of arms:
Wow...that's quite a logo. It really tells a story.
I dunno, I am pretty irritated at all the mold lines that go through the cheek bones of model's faces in a ring. The heads are tiny, then they have a mold line ring right around the middle of the face, a line about 20% the size of the face. That makes me a little irritated.
My love of neat little models and hoarding is losing to my desire to sell them and get something better.
It seems the vanguard has returned, having fought a losing battle. I am neither proud nor shamed for not having fought in this particular fight, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy to have been spared the anguish... and the added layer of grey basement filler
Thank you brothers for your honest tales.
@Wehrkind: Oh dear... 20% of the face is not really acceptable. Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Not sure if this is the place, but does anybody here know what material Rackham used for their pre-painted plastics? I was painting some up last night, and I compared to some restic I am also currently working on, it is a much better material. Particularly without the paint. The Wolfen army box came basically just primed, and the detail and edges all look good. It is also easy to scrape. Just curious.
To keep with the spirit of the topic, the army fell off my restic knight (Mantic paladin) again. I'm not sure I have the will power to re-attach it again. I have found that the material is nearly impossible to keep glued.
Ho, brothers of the Blade and Bleeding Thumbs. I come to you with a problem, and one that must be solved without the aid of fire, tempting a solution as it may be.
This eve, after months of on-and-off looking, I found a single baggie containing a trio of Mantic's Basiliean Elohi. Not the rest of them - not yet - they are still missing in limbo. But these three, I opened up and began to clean them, using my newly-aquired titanium scalpel. After some time, I managed to get the torsos cleaned to my satisfaction, and the wings to a workable level.
But the arms! The Heads!
The heads are like that of a pin, and so I shall not use these... pinheads on my models. I shall replace them with something else. Perhaps cut-down Sanguinary Guard heads - their masks will serve to hide the shame of the bodies they will be mounted on.
The arms - I attempted to clean one, then another. But the injection port is in the armpit, in a section of the shoulder under an indented piece of armour. A nightmare to clean, and not really possible to do a good job easily. The weapons! Flaming swords - in theory at least. But again, softly detailed, sad things with poor wrist plugs that do not fit the arms well at all.
So - my dilemma. I do want to use these figures. Or at least salvage the torsos and wings. This can be done. The heads shall be replaced by those of better angels. Leaving me with the last problem, and the reason I come here to seek suggestions from my brothers-in-arms. What shall I use to replace the arms and weapons of these things? They are the last pieces I need to offer these fallen restic angels some hope at redemption from their shamefully negative roots. My criteria is simple but broad - they must be hard plastic, ideally fantasy, from the shoulder down, armoured and reasonably available for a price that is not ridiculous - and they must fit the Elohi reasonably well - and so swords of power and chain would be a poor choice, as would corroded blades or those dripping with skulls. If it comes to it, at an extreme, I am willing to buy an entire WFB box to do this, as long as I can still use the rest of the box.
Swords, greatswords, hammers, 2-handed hammers, shields, halberds.. I am flexible, and in fact think mixed weapons could add some real interest. I will need to be able to equip at least 9-15 of these figures eventually (when I find the others) though...
Spoiler:
If I am successful in this quest - this redemption - this trial, I shall make an offering of the failed heads and weapons to Vulcan and Hephaestus, and video their fiery demise - which I will then place on YouTube.
They're tall, but their proportions are odd. I think "human-sized" WFB models would (probably) work okay. A space marine arm looks fine, for example. (And if I had a ton of SM arms with weapons that looked like medieval weapons rather than power weapons, I might have used those.)
I took a dodgy scale comparison pic with some models that were to hand. The Basilean Elohi are definitely tall and with fairly slim proportions. A Space Marine comes up to their shoudlers.
edit: Added scale comparison for some heads from various ranges I had in my bits drawers. Can take better shots of any if they pique your interest. Have fireforge infantry and knights, wood elf archers, dark elves, dreamforge and maybe some others if you want any of those too but they're on sprue so didn't want to do it unless you were interested.
Dear Brothers of the demoralised hobby time sucking device known as restic.
I have a small affliction with restic, mainly from PPs lines, my hatred of the mold lines and material leads me to leave large divots out of the shoulders of my warjacks in my haste to get out of the preparation area. I suggest this course of action as it is very theraputic(?).
I suggest that a 'dodgy scale' as obliquely suggested by yonan be put in place to guide others away from the things that have caused us the most pain.
With the 4 crazy boxes I recently received, plus my full Dreadball and Deadzone ranges I have plenty of samples of Mantics restic and some of their plastics - elves and basileans. I also have a lot of fireforge, whfb and 40k stuff on sprue still so will happily get some scale comparisons of anythign people are interested in to help solve problems caused by restic. One that went down well was the Deadzone Rebel human trooper with the Eisenkern arms and rifle. The body was pretty good but the arms and gun didn't do it for me, turned out to look pretty damn awesome!
Yonan wrote: I took a dodgy scale comparison pic with some models that were to hand. The Basilean Elohi are definitely tall and with fairly slim proportions. A Space Marine comes up to their shoudlers.
edit: Added scale comparison for some heads from various ranges I had in my bits drawers. Can take better shots of any if they pique your interest. Have fireforge infantry and knights, wood elf archers, dark elves, dreamforge and maybe some others if you want any of those too but they're on sprue so didn't want to do it unless you were interested.
Azazelx, if you think 40k stuff might work, you might try Dark Eldar weapons from Wych kits, and the spears and such from Raider kits. Finding an armored left hand that looks like it belongs might be a bit of a trick though.
Azazelx wrote: They're tall, but their proportions are odd. I think "human-sized" WFB models would (probably) work okay. A space marine arm looks fine, for example. (And if I had a ton of SM arms with weapons that looked like medieval weapons rather than power weapons, I might have used those.)
Can you get a bunch of SMCC weapon arms and just snip off the weapons? The swords on the Basilean Men at Arms sprue are actually quite decent, and look good with the elohi.
Other than that, maybe some High Elf Silverhelm arms?
You could always go the comedy option and use some spare Dwarf Berserker arms.
Doh I misread Azas post as wanting head ideas not weapons -_-. Arms and weapons (and heads) seem to be the main things I don't like with restic minis. Is there a common theme of restic being less good for the smaller parts?
Thanks Yonan. I think I've got the head issue under control. Either Sanguinary heads, or perhaps some of the smaller-looking (and less sci-fi) Maxmini ones I've bought over the years.
Arms and weapons are the hard part for me now. I think any heroic WFB type stuff will work well.
I have plenty of that so I'll dig around tomorrow and take some pics. Even if you don't find it useful, I'm building a fair "scale comparison" gallery so happy to take it anyway... and think I might investigate doing the same. I really like the Elohi, but yeah... can always use improving!
I like(d) them too - enough to clean the torsos and plan to build and paint them. Heads are always easy to swap out. The arms and weapons though... euggh.
I have a suggestion that might be of use. Clean and perfect one set of arms and depending on how far you want to go - either use silicone to make molds or go with instantmold. I don't consider this recasting as you own the originals and it's for your own use. I've done this in one instance when I got miscast part of an OOP figure (confrontation specifically) and completed the figure by borrowing the specific arm from my collector friend. However since you want it for gaming, I'm not sure of how sturdy the part will be in GS or milliput.
basement.dweller wrote: I have a suggestion that might be of use. Clean and perfect one set of arms and depending on how far you want to go - either use silicone to make molds or go with instantmold. I don't consider this recasting as you own the originals and it's for your own use. I've done this in one instance when I got miscast part of an OOP figure (confrontation specifically) and completed the figure by borrowing the specific arm from my collector friend. However since you want it for gaming, I'm not sure of how sturdy the part will be in GS or milliput.
Use i piece of wire as the "Bone" of the limb and it should hold really really well. I have a Greenstuff tree on the base of one of my BoneJacks. That wire core keeps it together.
While I appreciate the thought here, gents. And I do have some resin and silicone, I don't yet have the confidence in my own skills to recast the arms (I need to sit down sometime and make a bunch of my own bases to start leaning that particular skillset), and frankly it's more effort than I want to put into these models anyway. Like, I'd be ok with paying someone to assemble the bloody things, or buying a box of fantasy figures that I can also use in KoW.
I am called the Sinful Hero, and I am a Restic Knight.
My friends, I beg you! Help me! Temptation purrs in my ear,"Conan! Pledge for Conan!"
They say they have conquered the foul material known as PVC, wringing detail from it's mishapen claws and smooth face... Can it be true? Have they possibly found the secret?
The price seems too good to be true. The masters appear to be of high quality. But there are things that worry me, worry me greatly. The basic mooks are never shown but from far away and in small size, several renders appear to have mistakes such as axes turned in odd directions, and they keep referring to the material as "plastic".
Am I being naive? Has Restic truly been tamed, and broken to the mold? I think back upon all the cries of "High quality plastic!"; remember the bare smooth faces, the broken brittle weapons, the cuts and gouges from cleaning the dread material; and I whimper...
Restic Knights! I call upon thee! Wherein does the answer lie? Are we no longer needed? Has Restic become...an ally? To stand with metal, resin, and HIPS? Or are these more honeyed words to poison our will?
I'm mightly tempted, but at the same time something seems...off on this one.
And it might just be that I've been burned by "high quality boardgame plastic" (PVC) promises before?
There's also something of a concern in that the King pledge now includes 150+ miniatures with 40 different sculpts (not including the scenery pieces and not accounting for larger than human miniatures) for a $135 pledge that also includes all of the normal board game components, which now includes 4 double sided game boards.
I'm mightly tempted, but at the same time something seems...off on this one.
And it might just be that I've been burned by "high quality boardgame plastic" (PVC) promises before?
There's also something of a concern in that the King pledge now includes 150+ miniatures with 40 different sculpts (not including the scenery pieces and not accounting for larger than human miniatures) for a $135 pledge that also includes all of the normal board game components, which now includes 4 double sided game boards.
As a point of reference, Bones I included over 230 miniatures for $100, with the large figures, familiars, scenery, and different colored miniatures added in. With no board game components in the package. They still delivered albeit very late.
Of course, they used a different formula of PVC and had quite a few more molds. Or could they use the old metal molds for some of them- I can't remember. Either way, these factors should be considered.
I'm mightly tempted, but at the same time something seems...off on this one.
And it might just be that I've been burned by "high quality boardgame plastic" (PVC) promises before?
There's also something of a concern in that the King pledge now includes 150+ miniatures with 40 different sculpts (not including the scenery pieces and not accounting for larger than human miniatures) for a $135 pledge that also includes all of the normal board game components, which now includes 4 double sided game boards.
As a point of reference, Bones I included over 230 miniatures for $100, with the large figures, familiars, scenery, and different colored miniatures added in. With no board game components in the package. They still delivered albeit very late.
Of course, they used a different formula of PVC and had quite a few more molds. Or could they use the old metal molds for some of them- I can't remember. Either way, these factors should be considered.
And there are issues with Bones minis. Bones certainly have a place in the market, as the low price point, even at full retail, is a fair trade-off for the drop in quality. Sometimes you need 10 gnolls for an encounter and don't want to pay 50 for them.
Got a sedition kickstarter pledge cheap from someone and put together the special characters and some monsters and stuff, It took me so long, that i will think twice to ever pledge on a kickstarter for a restic tabletop game (i have less problems with it if it is a boardgame).
I'm mightly tempted, but at the same time something seems...off on this one.
And it might just be that I've been burned by "high quality boardgame plastic" (PVC) promises before?
Tell me more. I haven't been following that campaign so far.
Well, so far it's PVC, board game, 150+ minis for $135(US) plus an undetermined amount of shipping. It starts at $15 and will be added to with expansions and unlocked stretch goals. They refer to it as a plastic campaign, have only shown renders and masters, and have not shown close ups on the generic mooks included.
I'm mightly tempted, but at the same time something seems...off on this one.
And it might just be that I've been burned by "high quality boardgame plastic" (PVC) promises before?
Tell me more. I haven't been following that campaign so far.
Well, so far it's PVC, board game, 150+ minis for $135(US) plus an undetermined amount of shipping. It starts at $15 and will be added to with expansions and unlocked stretch goals. They refer to it as a plastic campaign, have only shown renders and masters, and have not shown close ups on the generic mooks included.
That is, of course, the formula.
Piggy back onto that the font of Kickstarter Exclusive content, early bird pledge levels, the rabid marketing, and the large amount invested into development and you've got the whole ball of wax.
I had put off dealing with any Restic for a while, including my Deadzone KS Rebs which had been sitting in a box since I got them.
Then a funny thing happened. I split a copy of Sedition Wars with a buddy to get the Vangaurd minis and I actually cleaned and painted the troopers.
Full Results here:
http://chicagoskirmish.blogspot.com/2015/01/sedition-wars-good-deal-for-patient.html Not perfect (I missed some mold lines here and there) but they actually came out pretty good considering I just used my base colors and dip process.
Spoiler:
Spoilered pic that was causing the thread to scroll sideways - RiTides
So I did the unthinkable.
I ordered another copy of Sedition Wars and now I've just about finished assembling my Rebs!
I've never quite experienced the same combination of emotions of really liking the miniatures and really hating the material. With the brass-brush technique, cleanup is a little easier, but these are still by far the most fiddly time-consuming figures to clean, and I remember the days when big metal models were the norm. I don't know if I'm a full on addict yet, but if there's another DZ kickstarter, I'll buy some more rebs and while I'd never pay full price for it, it's entirely possible I might buy a third Sedition Wars box (at the Amazon 27 buck price) to continue to grow my army.
All this to say, I can't see my self buying restic at reatail. It's just to much for not enough. However at KS and closeout prices, it's hard to resist great sculpts even if they come in an inferior material. Do I have a problem...
Wehrkind wrote: Where are you getting the brass brushes? I can't quite imagine what they look like.
I get mine at Harbor freight. I think any hardware store would have them, but Harbor freight only charges 79 cents.
http://www.harborfreight.com/1-3-8-eighth-inch-x-7-inch-brass-detail-brush-40441.html I seem to have misplaced my brass brush and I've started using a steel one and it works just fine though I try to use a lighter touch.
The brass brush looks like this.
Spoiler:
Spoilered pic that was causing the thread to scroll sideways - RiTides
Wehrkind wrote: Where are you getting the brass brushes? I can't quite imagine what they look like.
I get mine at Harbor freight. I think any hardware store would have them, but Harbor freight only charges 79 cents. http://www.harborfreight.com/1-3-8-eighth-inch-x-7-inch-brass-detail-brush-40441.html I seem to have misplaced my brass brush and I've started using a steel one and it works just fine though I try to use a lighter touch. The brass brush looks like this.
Woah! That's what I thought you meant at first, and brushed it off* as far too rough a method. How do you do it without abrading like half the model away? I am really curious now!
Woah! That's what I thought you meant at first, and brushed it off* as far too rough a method. How do you do it without abrading like half the model away? I am really curious now!
These brushes aren't actually that bad for minis. I've used brass and even steel brushes in stripping minis for quite some time and you don't lose detail if you use them sparingly.
Restic seems to be a material that is harder than regular plastic. If you really scrub hard you can mess it up, but a light brushing doesn't hurt the detail at all.
My second Sedition wars box just came in. I'll be trying the cut-then-brush method on the troopers and will report back as to how well it works
Mathieu, I made a similar post to this in another thread previously, but am bringing it in here and updating it:
There is a limited number of materials in which to have wargaming models cast, which should all be covered by the list below:
1. Hand Cast Resin (polyurethane, usually one of many varieties from a company called Smooth On). Labor intensive, so expensive unless you know someone who does it on the side (Wehrkind does it in his basement, highly recommended!). Quality can be very good but needs to be QC'ed for air bubbles and the like. The detail it can hold is incredible, and it can allow for undercuts that other methods cannot, due to it being cast from a flexible silicone mold. Forgeworld, Mierce Miniatures, and many other companies use this material / method.
2. Spincast Resin (aka Trollcast, a mix of different plastic materials). I actually know of no one else who does this but Ed at Trollforged, it is proprietary or at least a trade secret in many ways. It lets you get volume out of resin casting that is simply impossible with hand cast resin, and holds detail better than something like PVC. However, it also can be more brittle, and have more air bubbles at times. See example pictures here and here, since this is one of the rarer materials on the list.
3a. PVC. A type of injection molded plastic, which usually results in softer details than other materials on this list, and can also have harder to remove mold lines. Can be a good fit for some organic models. This material has lower start-up costs for making molds than doing so for High Impact Polystyrene (HIPS) which is what is generally known as "hard plastic" that companies like GW / Malifaux (from WGF) use. PVC is also easier to remove from the mold, and so does not require as much expertise in model design and mold making. Reaper Bones material would fall under this category, although they have a proprietary mix, along with most board game models and all of CMON's Kickstarter projects.
3b. ABS. Recently the Wrath of Kings project by CMON had some weapons made from another type of injection molded plastic, ABS (the plastic that legos are made of). The results on these so far are largely similar to PVC. More to come as pictures come in.
4. HIPS (high-impact polystyrene, commonly just called polystyrene). The gold standard for a material that is easy to work with, but as noted under the PVC entry above, you have to sculpt with it in mind and can have much fewer undercuts than in hand cast resin. Start up costs and waiting time can also be massive (see the results of WGF's customers: Dreamforge, Kingdom Death, Malifaux). An extremely high level of expertise is required to be able to create models in this material.
5. Metal... the old faithful! Holds detail well, can be difficult to assemble, paint can chip... but it is still the best choice for some smaller companies, and Infinity still uses it exclusively! It is also stronger which helps with their finely-featured models.
As an overall note, each of these materials require someone good at their craft to create high quality miniatures out of. We've seen bad examples of HIPS models done by companies not as skilled as GW or WGF in making molds for them, for example. But you can have some indications of what to expect from the above list.
I was given a bunch of painted retribution jacks that are made of PVC, so I'm afflicted with the substance again. And the person who assembled them didn't clean a single mould line or remove any extra plastic at all. Ugh. Even at $0 I'm not sure I got a good deal
I'm definitely going to get a brass brush the next time I'm out and give it a try.
This is an excellent thread to come by and I am glad I read into it more!. We were thinking of contacting a few casters that did cast in restic but seeing the results here we will stay clear from that material and stick with Metal and Resin, This restic stuff seems to be terrible for quality and detail!. Something we want to ensure avoid for our coming up start up campaign!.
thanks everyone for all of the posts in this thread you have convinced one miniatures company to stay clear away from this material !.
Well, I would say that is the best possible outcome! And definitely a large part of the original purpose of the movement, to raise awareness of the material properties in the community when some claims about it were initially very confusing.
Thanks for posting here, and looking forward to seeing your product in resin or even good old fashioned metal!
I'm furiously painting through my 28mm sci-fi so I can justify buying some of those Wulkin from UFWG. I only purhase new miniatures for a given scale/genre when I'm done everything I have for it. It might be a while :( A kickstarter type thing is good news though. That might give me the time I need to finish my warzone plastics (also not made of an awesome material-- ABS, but still better than PVC).
RiTides wrote: Well, I would say that is the best possible outcome! And definitely a large part of the original purpose of the movement, to raise awareness of the material properties in the community when some claims about it were initially very confusing.
Thanks for posting here, and looking forward to seeing your product in resin or even good old fashioned metal!
Also you wont be disappointed when our start up campaign comes out it will defiantly be something to check out, also our alpha version of our rules will be released during the campaign to give everyone a feel of our game system which I can say is shaping up to be a very fun and innovative system!.
And again thanks too all of you on here we will steer away from such material and continue our range in " good old metal" and resin , a victory indeed .
RiTides wrote: Mathieu, I made a similar post to this in another thread previously, but am bringing it in here and updating it:
There is a limited number of materials in which to have wargaming models cast, which should all be covered by the list below:
Spoiler:
1. Hand Cast Resin (polyurethane, usually one of many varieties from a company called Smooth On). Labor intensive, so expensive unless you know someone who does it on the side (Wehrkind does it in his basement, highly recommended!). Quality can be very good but needs to be QC'ed for air bubbles and the like. The detail it can hold is incredible, and it can allow for undercuts that other methods cannot, due to it being cast from a flexible silicone mold. Forgeworld, Mierce Miniatures, and many other companies use this material / method.
2. Spincast Resin (aka Trollcast, a mix of different plastic materials). I actually know of no one else who does this but Ed at Trollforged, it is proprietary or at least a trade secret in many ways. It lets you get volume out of resin casting that is simply impossible with hand cast resin, and holds detail better than something like PVC. However, it also can be more brittle, and have more air bubbles at times. See example pictures here and here, since this is one of the rarer materials on the list.
3a. PVC. A type of injection molded plastic, which usually results in softer details than other materials on this list, and can also have harder to remove mold lines. Can be a good fit for some organic models. This material has lower start-up costs for making molds than doing so for High Impact Polystyrene (HIPS) which is what is generally known as "hard plastic" that companies like GW / Malifaux (from WGF) use. PVC is also easier to remove from the mold, and so does not require as much expertise in model design and mold making. Reaper Bones material would fall under this category, although they have a proprietary mix, along with most board game models and all of CMON's Kickstarter projects.
3b. ABS. Recently the Wrath of Kings project by CMON had some weapons made from another type of injection molded plastic, ABS (the plastic that legos are made of). The results on these so far are largely similar to PVC. More to come as pictures come in.
4. HIPS (high-impact polystyrene, commonly just called polystyrene). The gold standard for a material that is easy to work with, but as noted under the PVC entry above, you have to sculpt with it in mind and can have much fewer undercuts than in hand cast resin. Start up costs and waiting time can also be massive (see the results of WGF's customers: Dreamforge, Kingdom Death, Malifaux). An extremely high level of expertise is required to be able to create models in this material.
5. Metal... the old faithful! Holds detail well, can be difficult to assemble, paint can chip... but it is still the best choice for some smaller companies, and Infinity still uses it exclusively! It is also stronger which helps with their finely-featured models.
As an overall note, each of these materials require someone good at their craft to create high quality miniatures out of. We've seen bad examples of HIPS models done by companies not as skilled as GW or WGF in making molds for them, for example. But you can have some indications of what to expect from the above list.
Hope that helps, Mathieu!
That's a good list, but I think you're missing a few types or formulations.
-Where does Restic fit in your list? It's not a PVC of the type that Bones/Clix/etc are made of, and it's not a spincast resin like Ed from trollforged.
-There's also the plastic that confrontation figures (possibly AT43 as well) are made of. It's more brittle than PVC models I've used, but also as far as I know it isn't HIPS or ABS. (Which probably shouldn't be a subset of PVC in your list). It could be a different PVC formulation, but I don't know.
If you want a good current example of ABS, its' the material used for the Robotech RPG tactics figures.
Sounds good . Resin is definitely my favorite, but metal is good in the right application (particularly character sculpts, although it can be intimidating for large units). My converted gatorman army is about half and half
RiTides wrote: Sounds good . Resin is definitely my favorite, but metal is good in the right application (particularly character sculpts, although it can be intimidating for large units). My converted gatorman army is about half and half
It does really come down too what is realistic in cost. Metal molds for a master mold can cost $125.00 for just the master and 125 ish for the production mold depending on miniature size and scale. Resin molds are cheaper usually around $60 bucks or so for an estimated 30 - 40 ( if your lucky and the mold doesn't ware out) casts before a new mold has too be made.
Metal allows you to recast failed casts , resin however you have to eat the cost. however resin holds the best detail and allows you to cast so many more poses than metal can. However the big thing i have been told and learned is that it truly depends on how many miniatures you expect to sell , if just a few hundred you will want to go for resin if in the thousands than metal is the better option as this material will allow you too keep production up with demand.
However some pieces like wings for example would be very difficult to cast in metal and you can all just imagine the nightmare assembling metal wings onto a miniature. Resin is usually the better option in this case. Larger creatures and such usually are an auto for resin as even though the molds need to be replaced it will be much more affordable than a metal version of the creature.
A certain individual I know of who runs the Strange Aeons skirmish game, his resin so far as I have seen is one of the best resins in the market place, the durability of his casts you can chuck at a brick wall and not even have a scratch on the material, let alone the paint does not even chip!.
HIPS is an extremely expensive material and i am still shocked that Malifaux has gone with this material, being they are a skirmish game the amount of miniatures needed to sell to make back the cost of investing in one of those molds is going to be a high amount. They must be doing very well in sales too recast such a large amount of their range in this material. The market i feel will not go the HIP way as the costs are truly far too out their for most companies except those few who are going very strong and have the number of customers to make it worth while.
Even then i still have never seen a HIP miniature in terms of detail equal the ones i have seen in metal or resin. This restic was supposed to bring together the speed of metal casting with the cost effectiveness and light weight of resin/plastic. I guess we will still be waiting for someone in the casting industry to come out with an innovation that can tackle the casting demand of the market in product demand but also maintain high detail quality that we currently get out of Resin and Metal miniatures. I think we will see most skirmish games and most 28mm companies continue too produce in Metal and Resin for the foreseeable future until someone invents the next big casting material i see this will be how the market will be.
With the growth and expansion of the market into this new golden age who knows what will happen in the next even 5 years? i will keep an eye out for anyone who comes up with a casting material than can combine the strengths of the most popular mediums and also avoid the negatives of each. Until then Metal for most of our miniatures, Resin for our larger creatures and perhaps special characters. Scenery as well can be done in resin however we have also seen some amazing work in MDF as well.
thank you for the great thread i will continue too watch it with interest!.
Shawn,
If you're looking into the pros and cons of different metal vs resin from someone who's been in the indie miniatures business for quite a while,( and recently fulfilled a KS in what is probably record time) check out this post from Johnny Lauck, of the recently closed Mega Minis.
http://johnnyborgcastings.blogspot.com/2015/01/my-dog-ate-my-ks-funds-part-3-of-10.html
He does a great job of breaking down costs, mold life, etc and how it affects profitability.
He does a great job of breaking down costs, mold life, etc and how it affects profitability.
Thank you for the post it was very informative and right on with what I have come to learn about the materials. I am still a little torn between Resin and Metal , our Metal casts are good, their was a slight crushing on one of our guys chests that isn't noticeable unless you grab the original resin master cast and compare it closely. The miniature is fine and I have learned that metal molds can at times do that with certain miniatures depending on the casting and pose however it has made me think again about just going all pure resin. However the cost factor of resin means raising the price a tad more ( something we do not want too do for our game to make it very competitive with what is out their already) and it will be much more time consuming for our commissioned casters to keep up with demand due to how long resin casting takes.
We will be doing our larger creatures and individuals in resin for sure, so we will end up balancing out what gets done in metal and what gets done in resin. As soon as our rules get closer too alpha stage which should be in another two months we can begin advertising our start up campaign and getting things rolling so we have some more time to talk with our casters and figure out which concepts should be done in metal and which in resin. So far I can say it will probably be the packs of squads of guys will be in metal and the packs of larger creatures will be done in resin.
thank you for your feed back and please do let us know your view , likes and dislikes of the two , too not disrupt this thread it would probably be best to pm us .
however yes we will be staying away from restic and waiting for someone out their to come up with a new material that have much better qualities to it.
Sedition Wars is being sold at ~$27 (with discount) at Miniature Market. What say you?!
I say you'd be mad not to! I'd buy a couple at that price in a heartbeat, the cheapest it gets over here is £35 (about $50), which is just a tiny bit too much (if it hit £30 I'd grab it).
but I do a lot of investing 
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