I wouldn't care if someone has recasts. That said I'm actually worried some of the models I filled out my army with are recasts. I bought them off eBay and they came from China but there's only so many ways to get those last few 1989 marines.... and the prices were good. But then they showed up and looked so shiny... yeah they're probably recasts. But I couldn't even tell you which ones they were now they're painted and the vast bulk of the force is legit.
I bought them before getting into the forums or what not when I decided to get back into 40k and before I knew there were recasters. Would anyone have a problem with facing my army?
Kojiro wrote: I wouldn't care if someone has recasts. That said I'm actually worried some of the models I filled out my army with are recasts. I bought them off eBay and they came from China but there's only so many ways to get those last few 1989 marines.... and the prices were good. But then they showed up and looked so shiny... yeah they're probably recasts. But I couldn't even tell you which ones they were now they're painted and the vast bulk of the force is legit.
I bought them before getting into the forums or what not when I decided to get back into 40k and before I knew there were recasters. Would anyone have a problem with facing my army?
Who really cares with miniatures that are that old? GW hasn't had a vested interest in them since about 1994. You shoudn't have to be 40 years old to have bought them In-store, or pay collectors prices on gaming pawns just because you love the style of something that was even more of a boutique item back then than gaming miniatures are nowadays.
I would love to play against an army of "old" miniatures, especially if any of the (possible) recasts are not done with ill intent.
That's...pretty much the case everywhere dude. At least as far as I can tell.
In the UK, at least until very recently, it was illegal to buy an item with an FM transmitter, it was illegal to sell an item with an FM transmitter, but it wasn't illegal to USE an item with an FM transmitter, despite the fact that one couldn't obtain it without breaking the law.
azreal13 wrote: That's...pretty much the case everywhere dude. At least as far as I can tell.
In the UK, at least until very recently, it was illegal to buy an item with an FM transmitter, it was illegal to sell an item with an FM transmitter, but it wasn't illegal to USE an item with an FM transmitter, despite the fact that one couldn't obtain it without breaking the law.
Figure that one out!
Grandfather rules for items which exist and were/are owned prior to the implementation of the law.
In Utah my 1968 Ford Bronco does not have to pass emissions tests, because cars that old have/had no system or controls to enable them to pass modern emissions and any sort of retrofit would be extremely costly and reduce the value inherent in the car. It still has to pass safety inspections the same as any other car, but for emissions it is exempt (where our Kia is not).
But a GW store manager cares nothing for such things.
He did not pay to design and sculpt a model, the only thing he cares about is whether he sold you the model (in which case it counts towards his performance) or didn't. Where the model actually originated from if it wasn't from him is irrelevant. Sure, there might be some awkward silences if you continually unpack new units each week and he knows you're not getting them from him, but that isn't entirely reliant on those models being recast.
Well, there's a big difference between buying official GW products in FLGS and buying recasts. Just remember that the GW store manager is, foremost, a GW employee and his company's gain should be a priority of his. If it's models sold in stores then it's okay - he can only be sad that you didn't buy it from him personally, but you're still buying it legally, so his employer gets the money for it. Zero tolerance towards recasts is expected of him as it hurts the company he's working for; the one that gives him his salary. He also acts as their representative in that area and if one of the "gw commissars"(we actually have those inspectors here that make sure FLGSes aren't doing anything cheeky with the GW stock like selling stuff before it's released, figure it's not unlikely for them to pop in a GW store too if there's one) sees that he's tolerating recasts he might even lose his job. Again - he should be making sure that his company is not getting screwed over by recasts and clearly express that he's not going to tolerate them in his store.
azreal13 wrote: Don't get me wrong, I understand why one may feel that taking recasts into a GW store might be excessively cheeky, but I do find it curious how various people posting ITT seem to have these hypothetical, arbitrary "lines in the sand" when, in the final analysis, they don't really hold up.
I guess it has a lot to do with the upbringing and values they've been taught. I, for one, would never do it and I would never tolerate anyone doing something in a place I run as I find it very insulting to the host. It's just too much of a dick move to me and I'd really need lots of hate and disrespect to do something like that to someone.. and even then I'd probably not do it - just avoid that place and not spend any money there. And then we have those that'd probably grab a bunch of recasts in their hands and rub them against the GW store's window making noise and doing a victory dance for their own reasons. It's funny how much really boils down to how people were raised. :-)
But a GW store manager cares nothing for such things.
He did not pay to design and sculpt a model, the only thing he cares about is whether he sold you the model (in which case it counts towards his performance) or didn't. Where the model actually originated from if it wasn't from him is irrelevant. Sure, there might be some awkward silences if you continually unpack new units each week and he knows you're not getting them from him, but that isn't entirely reliant on those models being recast.
Well, there's a big difference between buying official GW products in FLGS and buying recasts. Just remember that the GW store manager is, foremost, a GW employee and his company's gain should be a priority of his. If it's models sold in stores then it's okay - he can only be sad that you didn't buy it from him personally, but you're still buying it legally, so his employer gets the money for it. Zero tolerance towards recasts is expected of him as it hurts the company he's working for; the one that gives him his salary. He also acts as their representative in that area and if one of the "gw commissars"(we actually have those inspectors here that make sure FLGSes aren't doing anything cheeky with the GW stock like selling stuff before it's released, figure it's not unlikely for them to pop in a GW store too if there's one) sees that he's tolerating recasts he might even lose his job. Again - he should be making sure that his company is not getting screwed over by recasts and clearly express that he's not going to tolerate them in his store.
What I'm struggling with in this narrative, is where the manager becomes they're aware recasts? Because every thing you've said makes perfect sense, and is totally reasonable, except the hypothetical point in time where the manager's whiskers twitch and he goes "hey you, those models that are completely indistinguishable from other models of the same type, those are recasts!"
Why, if you did have the brass testiclé to take recasts into any commercial setting, would you tell the proprietor?!
azreal13 wrote: Don't get me wrong, I understand why one may feel that taking recasts into a GW store might be excessively cheeky, but I do find it curious how various people posting ITT seem to have these hypothetical, arbitrary "lines in the sand" when, in the final analysis, they don't really hold up.
I guess it has a lot to do with the upbringing and values they've been taught. I, for one, would never do it and I would never tolerate anyone doing something in a place I run as I find it very insulting to the host. It's just too much of a dick move to me and I'd really need lots of hate and disrespect to do something like that to someone.. and even then I'd probably not do it - just avoid that place and not spend any money there. And then we have those that'd probably grab a bunch of recasts in their hands and rub them against the GW store's window making noise and doing a victory dance for their own reasons. It's funny how much really boils down to how people were raised. :-)
I actually think people, when push comes to shove, are fundamentally good. I just think there's an inversely proportionate relationship in terms of the perceived severity of the crime and the number of people who would be prepared to do it, so the lower level a crime is commonly held to be in society, the greater number of individuals are prepared to do it.
Sure, social deprivation and circumstances play a part too (how many more people would be prepared to kill to save a loved one vs how many people would be prepared to kill solely for money for instance.)
But the point I was making was more that people saying things like "buying recasts is wrong, but doing it yourself is ok" are drawing arbitrary lines when in actual fact, in terms of any morality, the net result is the same (depriving the originator of the product money equal to the value of the product that person ultimately ends up owning.) Even if manufacturing "back up copies" is legal in that person's home country, the moment the intent behind making back ups is to avoid purchasing further copies, rather than any sort of protection/archiving, any moral stance disappears, even if the process itself is technically legal.
It's just an example of the little lies we all tell ourselves in order to keep our perspective on the world from disintegrating, or possibly just an example of people not thinking the full extent of their statements through to their natural conclusion!
Klerych, your comments are bordering on the inflammatory, over a hypothetical situation.
-----------------------
If your opponent has competently cast miniatures, and bothered putting at least a base coat on them, you should never be able to notice they are recasts.
AegisGrimm wrote: Still wondering- does anyone think that the reproducing, and/or distributing for free use of abandoned material is immoral/stealing?
Much like out of print media such as books, games, music etc - it's possibly/probably illegal depending on country, but few people argue it's unethical. ROMs/abandonware are a well known thing on PC, and some websites operate openly hosting these for download. I imagine if they're contacted by a rights holder they'll take down the requested items. I don't see any difference with physical products in this regard as it's the copyright involved in both cases.
azreal13 wrote: But the point I was making was more that people saying things like "buying recasts is wrong, but doing it yourself is ok" are drawing arbitrary lines when in actual fact, in terms of any morality, the net result is the same (depriving the originator of the product money equal to the value of the product that person ultimately ends up owning.) Even if manufacturing "back up copies" is legal in that person's home country, the moment the intent behind making back ups is to avoid purchasing further copies, rather than any sort of protection/archiving, any moral stance disappears, even if the process itself is technically legal.
It's just an example of the little lies we all tell ourselves in order to keep our perspective on the world from disintegrating, or possibly just an example of people not thinking the full extent of their statements through to their natural conclusion!
I agree, but our brains *are* wired that way until you train yourself out of it. You know the whole "would you sacrifice one to save ten" thing that changes if you have to manually redirect a train from hitting the ten to hitting the one. I could link a very interesting lecture series on that topic btw!
For me, the whole "copyright" thing revolves around the initial premise of copyright - the goal was to encourage the creation of creative works for the betterment of society, *not* to reward the producers of the works. The mechanism by which it does this, is granting an artificial monopoly on the production of that work - initially it was for 7 years, unlike now - which ensures that people were rewarded for their work, thus encouraging them to create more. Now we have a situation where the system is warped so far from its original goal that it's actively detrimental to the production of creative works as seen with the GW lawsuit vs chapterhouse. That is not acceptable imo, and one of the few ways we can push back against it other than our votes - which are largely meaningless, with the ill-informed public for example voting in Abbott in Australia (I still tell everyone to vote green!) - is to ignore the laws that have been so warped.
I would play them and ask where they got them if quality matched or came close to gw for much cheaper I would buy from them in a heartbeat. Gw really prices themselves to high for what they offer. They are hemoraging customers to other games left and right and ifeven given the new York codex and 7th I am debating how much war machine/hordes models I could get for my 40k collection at times
Riddle me this, what if someone that is actively purchasing a large quantity of cheap recasted models, paints them well, and is the "Good Guy Greg" of his 40k community sparking interest and loads of tournaments, events, and what not, is he still a bad guy?
What if going to a GW store with recasted models allows someone who wouldn't have played the game to get one in and that, in turn, inspires him to buy some stuff he wouldn't have otherwise?
Remember, it's not like pirated video games. Someone's recasts could be your fun, too. Any thoughts on that viewpoint?
AegisGrimm wrote: Still wondering- does anyone think that the reproducing, and/or distributing for free use of abandoned material is immoral/stealing?
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I don't think it's stealing because I don't think IP infringement is stealing. They're different offenses.
I do think there's a moral grey area still with copying things that are no longer available. On the one hand, the company that owns the IP has chosen not to do anything with it, and so they're (arguably) not losing any income as a result (I say arguably because it could be argued that the guy casting out of production Squats in his basement might, if that were not an option, be buying current models instead.)... but on the other hand, it should be the right of the company that owns the IP to determine whether or not people have access to that IP. In other words, if they choose to not make a given product available, you have no intrinsic right to it... it's their choice as the owner of the product to not sell it to you.
I'd rather play against recasts than people using counts as. I'm not talking about "this spacemarine is actually my commissar for this game, want to see if i like him" but the use of Pepsi cans as drop pods and poker chips as models. its happened.
recasts, and burned dvds/cds don't bother me, is it stealing? yes. do i care? no. i guess I'm just desensitized to it, i really could care less. but, at the same time i would be very vigilant about seeing someone steal a candy bar. out of sight, out of mind? idk, but the idea of recasts just doesn't bother me.
If GW didn't want pirated models out there then they shouldn't have priced out so many people.
And besides, it's a question of morality and has nothing to do with the game played, you can't even tell the difference visually so it's not like the experience is ruined, you merely disagree on one of millions of morally grey areas.
Would you not play with someone because you disagreed politically? Or free-handed grapes at the grocery store?
robam45 wrote: If GW didn't want pirated models out there then they shouldn't have priced out so many people.
GW shouldn't have been dressed like that either, the tramp!
And besides, it's a question of morality and has nothing to do with the game played, you can't even tell the difference visually so it's not like the experience is ruined, you merely disagree on one of millions of morally grey areas.
Would you not play with someone because you disagreed politically? Or free-handed grapes at the grocery store?
Self-righteousness is the opiate of the modern era.
seems incredibly obvious. or am i missing the sarcasm
The recasts came in a very shiny metal which I'm pretty sure wasn't lead. I bought them to supplement my 'Nothing After 1990 Army' (in my sig) about a year or so ago.
But either regardless of if someone is recasting the latest stuff or 25 year old models it's still making money of someone else's work. That said it's hard to see the damage done to GW since they haven't sold this stuff in years.
Steam still has up to 200% price increase for Australia as per the rest of the world... While it is still our best way to get games, don't fool yourself into thinking that it's anything other than the business model that works in this generation. If the prices could be ramped up in your country without significant loss of sales, they would be
There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )
Yonan wrote: There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )
Which also goes hand in hand with the fact that we get priced higher than everybody else. The loss of sales would be less if the prices were lower. But since everyone else overcharges already, I imagine steam prices being bumped up won't lose them as much customers here as it would elsewhere.
Or were you saying that they justify charging their paying customers extra based on the fact that others choose to pirate the product they have for sale?
The more exclusive something becomes, either through price or availability, the more likely it is to be forged.
My view is simple.
Wrong is wrong.
While I have ZERO love or tolerance for GW, the reality is that casting stuff that is not your design is using an intellectual property without permission, and is at best infringement, at worst, theft.
Regardless of what you tell yourself, or how people justify it, it doesn't matter much at all.
With that said, re-casting anything is on the player, the person to make the arbitrary moral decision if they see it as right or wrong. If they don't see it as wrong, that's their own ethical compass their dealing with. It's no impact to me one way or another.
As long as I can tell what units are and they don't make it a point to tell me they are re-casting stuff, you probably won't hear me complain much about the game I play.
Yonan wrote: There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )
Which also goes hand in hand with the fact that we get priced higher than everybody else. The loss of sales would be less if the prices were lower. But since everyone else overcharges already, I imagine steam prices being bumped up won't lose them as much customers here as it would elsewhere.
Or were you saying that they justify charging their paying customers extra based on the fact that others choose to pirate the product they have for sale?
I think I was just saying in a semi-related matter that they think it works in their favour here - selling less copies at a higher price, but it's hard to track the number of lost sales of which I think there are many so they may very well be losing out directly as a result, in addition to indirectly by causing a lot of bad will. ie. ubisoft has a horrible reputation in general thanks to DRM and what not, but adding regional pricing into the mix froths some people (*whistles innocently*) into a rage. Much like has happened with GW I guess (*keeps whistling*).
azreal13 wrote: What I'm struggling with in this narrative, is where the manager becomes they're aware recasts? Because every thing you've said makes perfect sense, and is totally reasonable, except the hypothetical point in time where the manager's whiskers twitch and he goes "hey you, those models that are completely indistinguishable from other models of the same type, those are recasts!"
Why, if you did have the brass testiclé to take recasts into any commercial setting, would you tell the proprietor?!
Oh, it was more like an abstract, hypothetical situation in which, say, the manager sees an influx of Finecast, Forge World or Mail Order models on the tables of people he rather noticed to be less wealthy. I'm not talking about spying or judging the customers - I must admit, I don't know a single GW store manager because there is only one official GW store in Poland and it's in the capital, so it's just the numerous FLGSes that people deal with in person and usually if you go somewhere often, you can befriend the owner or one of the employees and he'll sooner or later know his 'herd' if they'll be coming regularly, so it wouldn't be hard to figure that. In case of FLGSes it's more of a "meh, they didn't buy it from me..!", but GW employee, while not having to care about it personally, is still bound to make a harsh, official stance on that he doesn't ever want to get even smallest hint that those models are recasted and players should definetely keep that to themselves or they'll be banned from tournament or something, because that's a hit on his company of which he is a representative. He doesn't have to be an evil machiavellian corporate tool that only seeks to milk the walking cash cows for his company, but he has to at least pretend to care, because otherwise there might be a situation like the one I mentioned when an undercover GW inspector walks in and overhears that someone brags about his recast within an earshot of manager/employee who doesn't take any actions. I know, fat chance, but it may happen and noone would want to lose his job over some players' careless talks if he didn't make it clear that recasts aren't tolerated there. :-)
I actually think people, when push comes to shove, are fundamentally good. I just think there's an inversely proportionate relationship in terms of the perceived severity of the crime and the number of people who would be prepared to do it, so the lower level a crime is commonly held to be in society, the greater number of individuals are prepared to do it.
Sure, social deprivation and circumstances play a part too (how many more people would be prepared to kill to save a loved one vs how many people would be prepared to kill solely for money for instance.)
But the point I was making was more that people saying things like "buying recasts is wrong, but doing it yourself is ok" are drawing arbitrary lines when in actual fact, in terms of any morality, the net result is the same (depriving the originator of the product money equal to the value of the product that person ultimately ends up owning.) Even if manufacturing "back up copies" is legal in that person's home country, the moment the intent behind making back ups is to avoid purchasing further copies, rather than any sort of protection/archiving, any moral stance disappears, even if the process itself is technically legal.
It's just an example of the little lies we all tell ourselves in order to keep our perspective on the world from disintegrating, or possibly just an example of people not thinking the full extent of their statements through to their natural conclusion!
Unfortunately people, while usually good at heart, are huge hypocrites. They make rules for their lives and don't really feel like holding up to them, because there's always some nice excuse to justify breaking them. Of course I'm not saying I'm 100% morally pure either, I'm a human being too and, to be honest, I own a few recasts that are much better quality than any finecast model I've seen(aside from my fantastic finecast Dark Elf Assassin for WFB, it was 99.999999% perfect with only a tiiiiny bubble under his cape that couldn't be seen after painting and basing the model) and I probably might buy some more if hard pressed, especially Forge World models unless I decide to convert something to represent the same unit, because the prices are absolutely terrifying when compared to polish salaries. But again - I will never feel justified to do so; if I do it, I will know that I did something wrong and I'll largely feel guilty because it took the FW staff time, money and effort to design that piece, make rules for it, sculpt it, make molds of it and do all the development while I'll be depriving them of their rightful money. I guess that's what I meant by how being raised by parents affects the mindset later in life...
adamsouza wrote: Klerych, your comments are bordering on the inflammatory, over a hypothetical situation.
Hmm.. I really don't see why, but if they really do sound like that, then it's not intended!
And I meant people who brag or openly talk about recasts. :-)
Yonan wrote: There *is* significant loss of sales due to regional pricing (and other shenanigans) in Australia btw, we're well known as the highest rate of piraters per capita. It's totally not due to our heritage as convicts gorramit! ; )
Which also goes hand in hand with the fact that we get priced higher than everybody else. The loss of sales would be less if the prices were lower. But since everyone else overcharges already, I imagine steam prices being bumped up won't lose them as much customers here as it would elsewhere.
Or were you saying that they justify charging their paying customers extra based on the fact that others choose to pirate the product they have for sale?
I think I was just saying in a semi-related matter that they think it works in their favour here - selling less copies at a higher price, but it's hard to track the number of lost sales of which I think there are many so they may very well be losing out directly as a result, in addition to indirectly by causing a lot of bad will. ie. ubisoft has a horrible reputation in general thanks to DRM and what not, but adding regional pricing into the mix froths some people (*whistles innocently*) into a rage. Much like has happened with GW I guess (*keeps whistling*).
Yeah I agree - I have a few hundred steam games as well. They provide a good service to us and it's a much better business model than Games Workshop, but it's evident that that's all it is to them and will squeeze every dollar that they can under this directive. They don't gave to be fairly priced to be the best deal on the market - just cheaper than all the other people overcharging. Which is undeniably what they are doing to Australians by taking advantage of not needing to provide competitive prices. I'd love to be on the receiving end of U.S. prices, not paying 50% more for downloadable products that have no additional cost of sale.
I honestly wouldn't care in the slightest. I mean the main way you'd even find out most of the time is by asking everyone you play against if they have recasts, then what is the point anyways.
I've yet to see anyone address the question that if it's simply about morality then would you deny a game to someone who pirates music or doesn't pay their child support on time?
If so where does it end?
I mean, I understand that some are more inclined to see piracy as wrong but that doesn't explain why they won't play a game with someone.
Morality is all about telling ourselves a story about a given event or fact. I'd imagine that if someone is really invested in the piracy is bad story, and then they play in a game with pirated figures, they'd become a character in their story. They'd then have to tell themselves a story about their own moral failure.
I wouldn't care myself. Heck, +props of said recasts were painted up nicely. The only thing I wouldn't play against are sad looking proxies (especially where it can become an issue to identify which is what). Had one guy wanted to play a game as GK…but he didn't have any GK models. Just bases with pennies and nickels glued to them…. Feth that….
Don't care. I own recasts and if you set them next to a genuine produce you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Funny but one forgeworld item has been commented on several times regarding how rare it is to see one so nicely cast by forgeworld and I must have used a lot of greenstuff and time to clean it up. Yeah, no.
Material-wise, the stuff out of China has become great; I wish Mantic would have used their "restic" mix instead of the crap that I got with my Deadzone and KoW kickstarters, almost zero cleanup, not brittle and takes all types of glues.
One of these things is not like the other... (pardon the crap paint, it's just I'm indifferent when I paint).
robam45 wrote: I've yet to see anyone address the question that if it's simply about morality then would you deny a game to someone who pirates music or doesn't pay their child support on time?
Are you assuming that someone who finds one particular thing to be immoral will automatically find everything you find immoral to be equally immoral?
I mean, I understand that some are more inclined to see piracy as wrong but that doesn't explain why they won't play a game with someone.
Sure it does. Allowing someone to use pirated models is encouraging the purchase of pirated models. People wouldn't buy them if they knew they weren't going to be able to use them. So for someone strongly opposed to the practice, refusing to let people use them makes perfect sense.
AegisGrimm wrote: Still wondering- does anyone think that the reproducing, and/or distributing for free use of abandoned material is immoral/stealing?
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I don't think it's stealing because I don't think IP infringement is stealing. They're different offenses.
I do think there's a moral grey area still with copying things that are no longer available. On the one hand, the company that owns the IP has chosen not to do anything with it, and so they're (arguably) not losing any income as a result (I say arguably because it could be argued that the guy casting out of production Squats in his basement might, if that were not an option, be buying current models instead.)... but on the other hand, it should be the right of the company that owns the IP to determine whether or not people have access to that IP. In other words, if they choose to not make a given product available, you have no intrinsic right to it... it's their choice as the owner of the product to not sell it to you.
So if people started making Squats, GW couldn't do anything bout it because they don't make the minis no more for them? Hmmm.... I wonder if people started making squats, if that would get GW to restart making Squats back again.
If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.
SHUPPET wrote: If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.
agnosto wrote: Don't care. I own recasts and if you set them next to a genuine produce you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.
Funny but one forgeworld item has been commented on several times regarding how rare it is to see one so nicely cast by forgeworld and I must have used a lot of greenstuff and time to clean it up. Yeah, no.
Material-wise, the stuff out of China has become great; I wish Mantic would have used their "restic" mix instead of the crap that I got with my Deadzone and KoW kickstarters, almost zero cleanup, not brittle and takes all types of glues.
One of these things is not like the other... (pardon the crap paint, it's just I'm indifferent when I paint).
man that white one is stunning. Good job. I never could paint white well.
I wouldn't care except under one circumstance and that's store play. I regrettably only have a single store in my area and it's a gw official location. If you play there its wysiwyg and recasts are barred from play or submission to contests or our cabinet of community painting submissions.
(each submission/ accusation of fielding a recast is scrutinized by our store owner to the point of madness)
So beyond that I wouldn't have issues with it. Especially if buying the real Rick James would set you back mega bucks.
Take for example the 2007 dark angels metal battlebox company master. On eBay he fetches a mighty penny. As a recast he costs all of 35 bucks after shipping. That's a wayyyyyy more reasonable price if you ask me.
SHUPPET wrote: If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.
I'll bite...
As a rule, I don't pirate anything. My iPhone is full of music with their cover art, either ripped from a cd purchase, or purchased online. I don't download movies, and if don't go to people's house to watch movies that they have obtained illegally.
With that said, I'm sure that I HAVE watched illegal movies. I'm sure that I have played against copies, I'm sure I have listened to pirated music, but if I know about it, I won't. It actually pusses my friends off quite a bit. I'm the old man party pooper.
Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach. Additionally, I was this way long before I had my daughter, but having her definitely made me think carefully about even everyday decisions.
For me, if I know my opponent is playing with recasts, I wouldn't play him. I wouldn't be a jerk about it any more than to say no, and provide the reasoning should he ask, but I wouldn't play. I don't see this as a terrible thing, and I struggle to see where the ambiguity comes from.
Maybe because I'm old, I see the world differently, or see things more black and white than they really should be in this day and age, but I have always been the buy the book kind of guy. I have never cheated on my taxes, I have never purchased a firearm illegally, I have never knowingly purchased pirated software or media, I have never knowingly stolen property from another, and don't intend to, I have never cheated on an insurance claim.
Maybe I'm just a complete wuss, or just old fashioned, and believe me, this strict viewpoint sucks sometimes. I hate being the last one to get the war room app with all the factions in it because I won't 'break my phone or tablet. I hate being the last one to see the cool new movie everyone is quoting, and I hate to not hear the awesome hidden track on an album until I can order and get the vinyl, but it's a moral decision and I'll stand to that.
I certainly understand that I have been an unknowing hypocrite from time to time, and I don't hold others outside of my house to my standards, what people do with their time is their prerogative, but if I know, I won't play, despite my burning rage of a thousand collapsing supernovas with games workshop.
The recasts that I have seen for sale are still very pricey. Sure, they are cheaper than GW or in the store, but not by that much. You are basically handing over a lot of money to . . . counterfeiters in China!
Now, this is the thing. If you choose to buy counterfeit Chinese recasts you are actively supporting illegal business practices and hurting your domestic economy. If you live in Europe or America or Canada, your economy is effectively in a state of economic war with China.
So yeah, that little bit of money that you are saving for yourself is helping some scoundrels overseas (who don't abide by international trading regulations) to undermine legitimate international business practices. Buy from legitimate international sources. Or don't complain when your job gets sent overseas.
This is big damage. This is like taking whole barrels of oil and dumping it into the ocean kind of damage and proclaiming "F U dolphins".
I mean if you are so fed up with GW that they will drive you to pour money into illegal practices in China then quit 40k!
And if you are some anarchist juvenile twit who doesn't care about these things and only about your narrow personal needs, then grow the feth up.
But having said that I will not refuse to play someone who uses recasts since I respect that that is their personal business, but I will state that recasts are definitely the opposite of pimp and should be ridiculed whenever spotted. If the community defines pimpness as totally legit then that will be enough to curtail this counterfeit bs.
SHUPPET wrote: If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.
I wouldn't buy it, and playing against it would be dependent.
I'd be against anyone turning up with a crap load of FW tanks and models, better cast or not, if I can pay full price to it own the stuff, then you can save an extra week or two and afford the difference in price and learn how to fill gaps and make an effort, I'd rather play against a half decent scratch built.
However playing against squads and armies with insane price tags such as Sisters of Battle and Legion of the Damned I'd be fine with on the basis that GW should produce them as "affordable" multi part plastic, no Ten Man unit should cost what they do unless cast in platinum. And this would only be at home gaming level, not store/tournaments.
Again I still wouldn't buy them re-cast, so I'll just not buy them at all =)
Now, this is the thing. If you choose to buy counterfeit Chinese recasts you are actively supporting illegal business practices and hurting your domestic economy. If you live in Europe or America or Canada, your economy is effectively in a state of economic war with China.
How I don't see Polish recasters or Polish model studios having problems with Russian or Chiness recasters. What is better with Russians you can pay on delivery , which for me is beyond awesome , as it gives me access to models I would not be able to normaly get or which I would have to buy full price at GW Warsaw , what considering the trip from Krakow and back would double the cost of those models.
Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach.
Would it not be better to raise a child to "love" the god of your new testament of her own volition - than to live in dread of the one of the old?
Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach.
Would it not be better to raise a child to "love" the god of your new testament of her own volition - than to live in dread of the one of the old?
P4Painting wrote: if I can pay full price to it own the stuff, then you can save an extra week or two and afford the difference in price and learn how to fill gaps and make an effort, I'd rather play against a half decent scratch built.
lol ok then well if I can pay 50% higher prices than you because that was the RRP they choose to sell it at over here, you can either submit a donation to GW to match the prices I've had to pay, or I'll just have a tantrum and pack up all my models because you didn't spend as much as me
Seriously, the moralistic crowd I can understand. The ones who do it because they don't like people spending less money than them to get in however, I must say, I'd be glad to avoid playing you. The game is about fun and competition , not about who payed the largest entry fee or can afford the biggest army. If this is what 40k is to you I genuinely feel sorry for you. Although GW is the perfect conduit for this mentality I guess.
Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach.
Would it not be better to raise a child to "love" the god of your new testament of her own volition - than to live in dread of the one of the old?
Farseer Pef wrote: Dipping slightly into the theft argument:
Re-cast robs the IP holder of the sales he could have had if re-cast wasn't done.
On topic:
GW is strangling the hobby with their price points (new Mek Guns are 18 points base, but cost $45 each...). They have driven players to this issue. I will not hesitate if asked to play against them.
If they returned to the old days of better pricing (2000 point army costing less than $300), I would frown on re-casting.
Bold part, while that is a symptom that not really the problem with their price, it is the cost to produce the item vs sell cost. Unlike other company that sell based on production cost, GW base their cost on "what we boost in power" worse part they don't even drop the price when the nerf the unit the made better to up the price. The don't even hide it in a once a year increase anymore, now it whenever they feel like it..
what yearly price rises?
im in aus and i havent seen a yearly price rise in many years.....
also $$ cost to how good in game? WHAT? my CSM landraider wants a chat, so do my mutilators infact..
SHUPPET wrote: If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.
"Welcome to my binary little world."
I don't understand the difference between participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question, and participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question.
Play against someone using recast models? Sure, why not?
If an alternative material other than the classic grey plastic was used, it at least guarantees the models are primed!
To boycott playing a game with someone who's morals may not align with my own would be "forcing my views on others".
I suppose it is a means of not rewarding bad behavior but still seems awfully petty.
At the very least, play your best game and table them, that will teach them for being such heretics!
My moral compass is: If you truly like a "work" someone has made and want to see future creations from that "artist": buy it from them (out of self-interest if makes sense).
If you really do not care either way, any old "stand-in" will do.
At least some thought on the degree of "harm" inflicted on the original creator should be made.
I do long for a binary world... China does not have much for copyright laws so if it sells, they will make it (not illegal there! no sin, at least if you lived there!)
For mail-order items my money would not contribute much of anything to North America since it is primarily a UK product.
Copyright was intended as a means to allow product to be changed over for public use after the original developer made their money, not the "forever" they keep trying to make it now. Just how much should an original work be allowed to continue to make large profits after the original costs had long been paid for?
The moral high ground on this particular topic is dubious in my eyes.
SHUPPET wrote: If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.
"Welcome to my binary little world."
I don't understand the difference between participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question, and participating in something with someone who is willing to commit IP infringement of the materials involved in the participation in question.
Actually sounds pretty spot on to me.
only if you take the word "participating" in its most lax sense. Other people here seem to be able to grasp the gradations of the morality in questionr, it's not too hard.
Few people have said they'd refuse to play with someone who uses recasts, outright.
Many people, including me, have said they have a problem with the idea of recasts - perhaps because it tends to encourage criminal behaviour, IP theft, penalises the store, or threatens to cut off supply of new designs - but would probably/possibly play with the oppo depending on his/her behaviour. .
Morality is rarely binary; it certainly isn't in law. We can spot the gradations in killing someone - manslaughter, murder, premeditated murder, concealment of body, all these things attract varying opprobrium and varying sentences.
Otherwise you'll be saying that opening a factory and churning out millions of counterfeits, channeling the money into other gang activities, would be exactly the same as listening to a download in someone else's car. And no-one would be so stupid as to allege that.... would they?
SHUPPET wrote: If you won't play a game with someone who recasts models, you best refuse to discuss music or movies with someone who downloads them. Otherwise, you sir, are a hypocrite. I'm sure you do though.
I'll bite...
As a rule, I don't pirate anything. My iPhone is full of music with their cover art, either ripped from a cd purchase, or purchased online. I don't download movies, and if don't go to people's house to watch movies that they have obtained illegally.
With that said, I'm sure that I HAVE watched illegal movies. I'm sure that I have played against copies, I'm sure I have listened to pirated music, but if I know about it, I won't. It actually pusses my friends off quite a bit. I'm the old man party pooper.
Reality is, I have a 2.75 year old, and If I want her to become a good, god fearing person who respects property and ownership, then I must practice what I preach. Additionally, I was this way long before I had my daughter, but having her definitely made me think carefully about even everyday decisions.
For me, if I know my opponent is playing with recasts, I wouldn't play him. I wouldn't be a jerk about it any more than to say no, and provide the reasoning should he ask, but I wouldn't play. I don't see this as a terrible thing, and I struggle to see where the ambiguity comes from.
Maybe because I'm old, I see the world differently, or see things more black and white than they really should be in this day and age, but I have always been the buy the book kind of guy. I have never cheated on my taxes, I have never purchased a firearm illegally, I have never knowingly purchased pirated software or media, I have never knowingly stolen property from another, and don't intend to, I have never cheated on an insurance claim.
Maybe I'm just a complete wuss, or just old fashioned, and believe me, this strict viewpoint sucks sometimes. I hate being the last one to get the war room app with all the factions in it because I won't 'break my phone or tablet. I hate being the last one to see the cool new movie everyone is quoting, and I hate to not hear the awesome hidden track on an album until I can order and get the vinyl, but it's a moral decision and I'll stand to that.
I certainly understand that I have been an unknowing hypocrite from time to time, and I don't hold others outside of my house to my standards, what people do with their time is their prerogative, but if I know, I won't play, despite my burning rage of a thousand collapsing supernovas with games workshop.
Thanks for this. I agree with you 100%. My daugthers are 25 and 17 and understands these rules. The older one would lose her license to work if caught so why do it to save pennies. But as a family we have very little debt and do not expect the government to pay for things. Working for something is important. Stealing or just taking is out of the question.
only if you take the word "participating" in its most lax sense. Other people here seem to be able to grasp the gradations of the morality in questionr, it's not too hard.
I get pretty indepth in my discussions with people about music. A lot of times I play the music in question to be able to better illustrate the point being made. We might play The Division Bell followed by The Final Cut, for example, to better illustrate the differences between an album written by Roger Waters and one written by David Gilmour, while actively discussing those differences. I suppose I see your angle if you limit discussion of music to something as brief and noninvolved as "sup brah, you like dubstep?".
Few people have said they'd refuse to play with someone who uses recasts, outright.
Many people, including me, have said they have a problem with the idea of recasts - perhaps because it tends to encourage criminal behaviour, IP theft, penalises the store, or threatens to cut off supply of new designs - but would probably/possibly play with the oppo depending on his/her behaviour. .
There have only been a few people, but on the other hand, there have still been a few people. Your comment still assumes the fallacy that every recast is a lost sale. That's impossible to prove.
Morality is rarely binary; it certainly isn't in law. We can spot the gradations in killing someone - manslaughter, murder, premeditated murder, concealment of body, all these things attract varying opprobrium and varying sentences.
Otherwise you'll be saying that opening a factory and churning out millions of counterfeits, channeling the money into other gang activities, would be exactly the same as listening to a download in someone else's car. And no-one would be so stupid as to allege that.... would they?
I don't think so. I don't have a problem with any piracy, personally, and I say that as a software developer who's pursued patent applications. Given that the music cartel has leveled penalties against private citizens for "making available" that would normally be used for shops selling counterfeit for-profit, I'd say that they've established that equivalency in actions, if not in speech.
Talizvar wrote: For mail-order items my money would not contribute much of anything to North America since it is primarily a UK product.
It's not a UK product anymore. All books are from China now. I believe I even read the minis are coming from China now, so nothing is really coming from UK now. Would like to be corrected or confirmed.
I get pretty indepth in my discussions with people about music. A lot of times I play the music in question to be able to better illustrate the point being made. We might play The Division Bell followed by The Final Cut, for example, to better illustrate the differences between an album written by Roger Waters and one written by David Gilmour, while actively discussing those differences. I suppose I see your angle if you limit discussion of music to something as brief and noninvolved as "sup brah, you like dubstep?".
How does that add to the discussion?
There have only been a few people, but on the other hand, there have still been a few people. Your comment still assumes the fallacy that every recast is a lost sale. That's impossible to prove.
"Fallacy?" If you're stating it's a fallacy then you presumably have the evidence to prove it. Please enlighten us.
I don't have a problem with any piracy, personally, and I say that as a software developer who's pursued patent applications. Given that the music cartel has leveled penalties against private citizens for "making available" that would normally be used for shops selling counterfeit for-profit, I'd say that they've established that equivalency in actions, if not in speech.
Perhaps you're on a salary - if you were freelance, were working on a product, and someone took your work and sold it as their own, and then you applauded them, well, I'm impressed with your sharing nature, if not your commercial good sense.
As for the BS about copyright all being a "musical industry cartel," that's a tired old device - but one which the big new cartels, especially Google, love. No copyright anywhere, and you get to pay Google and the new digital landgrabbers to access your "free" content.
I think the minis used to be made in China but now production is back in the UK. I think.
Honestly, regardless of where it's manufactured, the "talent" is all UK based.
I use recasts but for me it's that GW have priced me out of large model purchases; the value just isn't there anymore. Sure, I have plenty of expendable income to buy any model that I like but I haven't played a game of 40k in several months and probably won't for at least several more. Honestly, the models I shared a pic of above will most likely never see a table.
Now, someone might say that I should just not participate in the game if I'm unwilling to fork out the highway robbery that GW charges to which I say "nuts". I've lived and traveled around the world extensively and can say that the Western concept of IP ownership is not universal nor does it ensure the continued existence of companies. As was mentioned earlier, if you're charging so much for a product that garage recasters are able to easily undercut you, you're likely charging too much.
In example, I, personally, value the Knights at about $50-$70. Ballpark esitmate and with a healthy knowledge of how business works, GW could charge this much and still make a tidy profit; instead they charge $120 or whatever it is because they expect to push less volume (self-fulfilling prophecy there). Oddly enough, you can easily find recasts of the knights for the $50-$70 range. Click. It seems almost as if the recasters know more about business economics than the people running a multi-national corporation.
I would play someone that recasts, or has recasts.
GW used to recast their own models, then use parts of the green mould and merge them with new sculpts, so many of their full price models were rip offs of things they had already spent time sculpting..
regardless of that with many people buying/trading models its not uncommon for someone to have a recast item and not even know it.
I get pretty indepth in my discussions with people about music. A lot of times I play the music in question to be able to better illustrate the point being made. We might play The Division Bell followed by The Final Cut, for example, to better illustrate the differences between an album written by Roger Waters and one written by David Gilmour, while actively discussing those differences. I suppose I see your angle if you limit discussion of music to something as brief and noninvolved as "sup brah, you like dubstep?".
How does that add to the discussion?
I'm sorry, I must have assumed what you meant by
only if you take the word "participating" in its most lax sense. Other people here seem to be able to grasp the gradations of the morality in questionr, it's not too hard.
wrongly. please explain in detail what specifically you meant by that.
There have only been a few people, but on the other hand, there have still been a few people. Your comment still assumes the fallacy that every recast is a lost sale. That's impossible to prove.
"Fallacy?" If you're stating it's a fallacy then you presumably have the evidence to prove it. Please enlighten us.
I have what is likely a recast model of something I wasn't going to buy from Forge World. I know people who have pirated music they never would have bought. That proves there is at least one case in either medium of piracy not reflecting a lost sale.
As for the BS about copyright all being a "musical industry cartel," that's a tired old device - but one which the big new cartels, especially Google, love. No copyright anywhere, and you get to pay Google and the new digital landgrabbers to access your "free" content.
Maybe. I still don't have to pay Google a dime if I don't want to. Most of the bands I listen to have their own store set up. There's always a middleman, but the cut of the middleman isn't always the same. Plenty of the bands I listen too will say all kinds of bad things about their labels. Not many of them say bad things about Google.
After reading about 9 pages and the 12 I must say I'm actually quite surprised that this thread has not been turned into a religious grounds pit, following on how people are talking about Morals and co..
Apart from one thing: God-fearing? really? (I hope this is a figure of speech), No, no one should ever have to live in fear of anything, let alone a being that may or may not exist, that is also morally wrong as that can also be considered supporting bullying.
Of course tell your kids what's right and wrong but tell them because they should feel wrong doing something, not because they will go to somewhere they don't want to against their will when they die.
A life lived in fear is a life half-spent.
(for the record I'm personally agnostic, and follow the rules of the flying spaghetti monster and Dr. Pepper).
Anyway back to topic.
Personally I would play against someone with re-casts, what he/she other uses their money on is not my business and it generally considered bad manners.
As for myself buying something? I really depends on the quality of the mini, as other have said and as I have witnessed myself I have seen a better quality from re-casters than the actual manufacture themselves, and to me it makes sense that if the manufacture is the one who is meant to be making the quality casts and not the other way around, then that's the manufacture not doing their job right. if the re-cast is cheaper then that's just an added bonus.
(for the record I have never bought any re-casts so far from any game, and GW already has a large sum of money from me from my CSM army, and Ork horde I have a Gorkanought ordered for this Friday or Saturday so I'm not one of those hippys who says "stick it to the man" so to say.. But I have been thinking on getting some that I know are a better quality than the actual manufacture themselves)
...But then again I'm some Genocidal Anti-Christ for thinking of the idea for getting some recasts ...
happygolucky wrote: After reading about 9 pages and the 12 I must say I'm actually quite surprised that this thread has not been turned into a religious grounds pit, following on how people are talking about Morals and co..
Apart from one thing: God-fearing? really? (I hope this is a figure of speech), No, no one should ever have to live in fear of anything, let alone a being that may or may not exist, that is also morally wrong as that can also be considered supporting bullying.
Of course tell your kids what's right and wrong but tell them because they should feel wrong doing something, not because they will go to somewhere they don't want to against their will when they die.
A life lived in fear is a life half-spent.
(for the record I'm personally agnostic, and follow the rules of the flying spaghetti monster and Dr. Pepper).
Welcome to speaking with Americans. It makes more sense if you picture us as a giant insane asylum. :/
As for myself buying something? I really depends on the quality of the mini, as other have said and as I have witnessed myself I have seen a better quality from re-casters than the actual manufacture themselves, and to me it makes sense that if the manufacture is the one who is meant to be making the quality casts and not the other way around, then that's the manufacture not doing their job right. if the re-cast is cheaper then that's just an added bonus.
And that's another interesting pro-piracy/pro-recast argument I've often heard. Often times, the copy is actually a superior version of the original. I've seen some really bad Forge World stuff, but of the things I've been shown that people have said were recasts, the quality is often impressive. Similarly, all those unskippable previews on movies that tell you that you're a bad person who eats babies if you pirate movies don't exist on the pirated copies. You get the shame story told to you if you're the law abiding citizen, and you don't have to deal with the crap if you get the movie the other way. It's kind of insane when you think about it.
daedalus wrote: And that's another interesting pro-piracy/pro-recast argument I've often heard. Often times, the copy is actually a superior version of the original. I've seen some really bad Forge World stuff, but of the things I've been shown that people have said were recasts, the quality is often impressive. Similarly, all those unskippable previews on movies that tell you that you're a bad person who eats babies if you pirate movies don't exist on the pirated copies. You get the shame story told to you if you're the law abiding citizen, and you don't have to deal with the crap if you get the movie the other way. It's kind of insane when you think about it.
Have an exalt for the larf and for summing up my thoughts as well.
Well I am going to add in my two cents mainly because I am a anti counterfeit investigator, and I am going to hopefully be able to shed some light on counterfeit products.
1) Counterfeiting is not a victim less crime and I am not talking about the corporations who are the victims (well to be fair counterfeiting has actually forced some companies to close and as a result put people out of work), Its that most people do not want to see the real victims of counterfeiting because they believe that the corporations deserves what they get, well open your eyes and look for the real victims. Counterfeits are made by a slave labour force they also work in very bad conditions,counterfeits are made in small apartments or abandoned warehouse the workers have no protection or rights and sometimes are forced to work with very dangerous materials with no or little safety equipment, The myth about counterfeit products is that they are made by the same people from the same factory where the legit products are made. Counterfeiters are criminals not because counterfeiting is illegal but because 90% of all counterfeit operations are linked to major criminal organizations the money from counterfeiting is used to fund other criminal activity such as drugs, guns, prostitution including child, human trafficking and terrorism that's were your money is going to
2) Counterfeiters do not specialize if they make GW products they could also be making counterfeit cloths,medication,car parts,aircraft parts,electronics, make up, perfume, children toys, food ,military electronics (US military had a big problem with this a few years ago),Guns (Yes there was a few Police departments in the US that purchased counterfeit Glocks) and not to long ago a couple in Florida were arrested for selling counterfeit body armour I can imagine that not working to well in the field.
3) Counterfeit products are dangerous, because counterfeiters do not follow any regulations that legit companies have to, consumer products are in most cases highly regulated everything from the material used how they are made to where they are made is very specific for public safety. counterfeiters circumvent safety measures for profit this is why counterfeit chargers burn down houses or that counterfeit airbags explode and kill people, counterfeit clothing contains toxic dyes and materials, counterfeit perfume is made with human urine, and why people have died because they buy counterfeit medication that was packed with radioactive material, and the counterfeiters DO NOT CARE, so that nice Imperial Knight you have could very well be made out of toxic waste.
4) Prices, people complain about prices so they turn to re casters for cheaper products by supporting the counterfeiters your are actually part of the reason why GW raises their prices, you see most companies calculate the revenue lost by counterfeiters into their prices, so lets say GW losses 1 million dollars a year as a direct result of counterfeit products on the market so now GW wants to make up their lost revenue so what do they do, they take that 1 million dollar loss and increase the prices of their products so that they can recover that loss. So if you want GW to stop raising prices one way to do that is DO NOT SUPPORT THE COUNTERFEITERS.
I am saying this because everything I said comes from my experience in this field, but by all means you do not have to believe me but you can find a lot of this information with a simple Google search oh and the air bag thing can be found on You Tube it is pretty scary. So before you think "yeah another White Knight blah blah blah" do a little research.
Oh and in case people think I work for GW in any way I do not
I guess I didn't state whether or not I would personally buy recast in my previous post. Hmmm....
Well, I wouldn't have a problem buying recasts of out of production models, especially if they have no current replacement model (Squats, Wulfen, DOOMRIDER, etc). In that instance, GW is literally losing no money from the transaction. I am buying recasts of models that are only ever found on the secondhand market. Whether I buy recasts or not in that case, GW wouldn't see a dime either way. So there is no moral quandary there.
Would I buy a recast of a currently available GW model that I liked the look of? No, I don't think so. Not because I'm a better person than some of you guys or anything, its just that if I like the model enough I'll shell out the money for it. GW rarely makes a model that I like so badly that I will pay their extortionist prices, but it has happened (I'm just glad that none of the superheavies they make are good enough to make me want them). Generally, I will try to find a decent substitute model from a competitor to use instead of a GW one (I play with friends so this is a viable option for me; YMMV). Or I'll convert the heck out of something. Most of my jollies in 40K come from the creative aspects more than the game, anyway.
I will admit to not having any experience with FW, so I can't say if I would turn to recasts of their stuff because of rage at FW's poor quality or something.
All that said; I have downloaded stuff from torrent sites and whatnot. I don't try to rationalize it away as being justified or anything and I don't try to claim I'm smarter than anyone who paid $20 for a CD to get a single song they liked. It's just that money was very tight for me for a number of years (years I spent not buying *any* GW stuff at all) and torrents allowed me to maintain a minimum level of entertainment.
just make sure you actually support the company that makes the game you like to play, to the extent you can. at least have the decency to buy a legit copy of the rules if you want to play the game, GW may be the big bad evil guy for some reason, but they need cash to keep going, so throw them a bone every now an then since they did do the work.
paying 3rd parties cash for GW's product, IP, marketing, ect is all well and good for saving you cash, but dont kid yourself into thinking its not stealing.
this is why HMV and block buster do not exist, everyone pirated movies, so their business model failed.
recasters dont pay marketing, or have to invest money in things like rules, paying employees at box stores, ect.
pretty sad that some people think its ok to steal GW's IP, but bawk at stealing kromlech or warmahordes IP from recasters.
To be fair, your smart phone purchase wasn't a victimless crime either, but that doesn't stop you from buying the latest model.
Here's the thing: Everything you do has the potential to contribute money to the bad things happening. It's not like legitimate industries such as clothing, electronics, food, diamonds, lumber, rubber, gasoline don't have ties into human rights violations/slave labor/terrorism/puppy eating.
I'm a little numb to your argument, because even your name brand electronics are still killing factory workers for a pittance, and your jeans were sewn by someone living in poverty in Cambodia.
If I knew the opponent was buying large amounts of recasts of current products (from whatever company) no I probably would not want to play them
as has been mentioned this is promoting large scale counterfeit production which is never a good idea, it's also a real killer for smaller manufacturers who may be very marginal from month to month in terms of cashflow and while not all recasts will be a lost sale some will be and it could be the difference between the company staying open or not
a few picked up accidentally on ebay/trade no problem, it's a hazard of buying second hand by all means use rather than bin them, but don't try to resell them
home recasts of out of production stuff (whatever company) no problem, it does not matter to the original producer, it's not a commercial action (if a commercial producer wants to re-release an out of production mini they need to get a licence)
if it's a case of not being able to afford 'official stuff' and needing something cheaper I'm happy to let people play counts as with appropriate minis from cheaper manufacturers, or even (in the short term) coke can drop pods and kids toy titans
I just got as land raider on ebasy, turns out is all resin recast but very good quality one, just got a friend doing some touching up/spare parts that are badly cast for me, like a door etc :-)
Did not know it was recast, but hey, it is so I just have to deal with it.
So what, once painted you'll never be able to tell, and am I to be so moral as to bin 30 quid, no I'll enjoy it, fake or no :-)
If gw had more sense pricing I'd buy new but 15 quid less is a big difference when on low budgets.
It's weird for me. I proxy my entire army with pieces of paper to represent miniatures. I do, however buy the rules and codexes and I have bought several of their miniatures, so I'm not ripping off the entire game. Not the most recent codexes, but I still bought them off GW. Because I play alone, I need several armies to keep the hobby interesting for me, so I can't buy much models for 5 different armies.
If someone approached me and wanted to play with his or her recasts, I'd prioritize that someone's willing to play with me over the person is breaking the law in this regard. I'd feel guilty about it after, but I'd find that better than feeling lonely.
Davor wrote: It's not a UK product anymore. All books are from China now. I believe I even read the minis are coming from China now, so nothing is really coming from UK now. Would like to be corrected or confirmed.
GW's minis are still made in the UK.
Forgeworld had some production in China for a while, but it's all supposedly in-house again now.
jhe90 wrote: I just got as land raider on ebasy, turns out is all resin recast but very good quality one, just got a friend doing some touching up/spare parts that are badly cast for me, like a door etc :-)
Did not know it was recast, but hey, it is so I just have to deal with it.
So what, once painted you'll never be able to tell, and am I to be so moral as to bin 30 quid, no I'll enjoy it, fake or no :-)
If gw had more sense pricing I'd buy new but 15 quid less is a big difference when on low budgets.
To me, this is a much bigger issue.
Not that you bought a recast, it is that you did so unknowingly.
If I were to go on to a Chinese website and order a Warhound with two weapons for £150, I couldn't very well argue I didn't know what I was doing.
If I went on eBay, and paid something approaching the market rate for a second hand model of it's type, and that turns out to be a recast? That's more of an issue.
There's one thing debating the legality of doing it, which will vary from territory to territory, hell, even the morality of recasting will vary culture to culture, but I'm fairly sure lying and deceiving in the clear cut sense of selling something as one thing when it is another is universally frowned upon.
2) Counterfeiters do not specialize if they make GW products they could also be making counterfeit cloths,medication,car parts,aircraft parts,electronics, make up, perfume, children toys, food ,military electronics
Bear in mind, for those who like to 'Stick it to GW' that the recasters in question, even if they aren't producing dodgy medication or baby food, will probably be counterfieting Kromlech stuff.
Your counterfeiter isn't sticking it to The Man. He is THe Man.
jhe90 wrote: I just got as land raider on ebasy, turns out is all resin recast but very good quality one, just got a friend doing some touching up/spare parts that are badly cast for me, like a door etc :-)
Did not know it was recast, but hey, it is so I just have to deal with it.
So what, once painted you'll never be able to tell, and am I to be so moral as to bin 30 quid, no I'll enjoy it, fake or no :-)
If gw had more sense pricing I'd buy new but 15 quid less is a big difference when on low budgets.
To me, this is a much bigger issue.
Not that you bought a recast, it is that you did so unknowingly.
If I were to go on to a Chinese website and order a Warhound with two weapons for £150, I couldn't very well argue I didn't know what I was doing.
If I went on eBay, and paid something approaching the market rate for a second hand model of it's type, and that turns out to be a recast? That's more of an issue.
There's one thing debating the legality of doing it, which will vary from territory to territory, hell, even the morality of recasting will vary culture to culture, but I'm fairly sure lying and deceiving in the clear cut sense of selling something as one thing when it is another is universally frowned upon.
True, not great but me and friend now making best of a bad lot, he found a old whirlwind kit, plastic legal don,t worry! so with some work its becoming a semi scratch built Helios model.
happygolucky wrote: After reading about 9 pages and the 12 I must say I'm actually quite surprised that this thread has not been turned into a religious grounds pit, following on how people are talking about Morals and co..
Apart from one thing: God-fearing? really? (I hope this is a figure of speech), No, no one should ever have to live in fear of anything, let alone a being that may or may not exist, that is also morally wrong as that can also be considered supporting bullying.
Of course tell your kids what's right and wrong but tell them because they should feel wrong doing something, not because they will go to somewhere they don't want to against their will when they die.
A life lived in fear is a life half-spent.
(for the record I'm personally agnostic, and follow the rules of the flying spaghetti monster and Dr. Pepper).
Since I'm being hammered on a few things allow me to explain.
God-fearing is a figure of speech in the US. While it certainly did have its roots in fearing the god of Old Testament of the bible, it now more means to be above board, to show humility, be humble and honest in dealings with others and to exercise a strong moral and ethical compass upon which long ter fundamental life decisions can be firmly grounded.
And since many of you have decided to jump on that, please allow me to furth clarify:
Whether my daughter grows up catholic like I did, baptist like my wife, or whatever, I am less concerned about what faith she decides to be apart from outside of occultist convents or anything that I would, or even a reasonable person would deem dangerous or unhealthy, than I am making sure she has a solid foundation with which to build the ability to make solid life decisions off of.
She is free to choose her own path. If it's the same as her fathers, do be it, if it's different, that's her decision. If I have done my job right, and have raised an adult, and not a child, she will be a good person, and as a parent, when I leave this world, that is my ultimate goal.
Does it make me draconian, sure, it probably does. It is also the best way I know how to ensure she is likely to learn valuable life lessons. Additionally, families that are involved in community and church are more likely to stay together through common moral and ethical structures. I'm on board with this. My daughter growing up with her mom and her dad in the same is stupid important to me.
Additionally, I also want to add that fear, a little bit is a good thing. YOLO is something for people to say when they try a strange new food. It's not a tag line for how to live. I fear driving 130MPH down a two lane road at night. I fear it because I do not want unnecessary bodily harm. It's not that I'm a pussy, or a weakling, I just don't want to die. I fear being shot at. Not so much that it paralyses me and prevents me from acting, but because I know what happens if I get hit. As such, I don't play with guns or stand in the middle if a firefight between the police and the proverbial robbers. I fear for my daughters well being, which is why I don't do stupid things with her like throw her in the middle if a lake and hope she "learns to swim"
A life dominated by fear is a bad thing, I agree. But people who "ignore fear" are either executing a Mission, or are just stupid. We have fear so we don't die to dumb things like car wrecks at 130 on a Rainey black road in the middle of Missouri. We can mitigate the fear we feel with precaution (like bungee jumping or para jumping) and know that the fear we feel is healthy, but there are reasonable precautions taken to endure the risk is minimized. unmitigated fear, when no such logical precaution is perceived, or better, the choice to ignore that fear all for the sake of yelling YOLO while acting like an idiot is very VERY dangerous.
I don't really care where your models came from. Recasts or third-party doesn't matter to me, so long as I can easily tell what sort of units they're supposed to be.
Things would probably be much better for 40K if GW went out of business and was forced to sell the IP to another company.
I think the people arguing against Sc077y dont have kids... You raise your kids in the best way YOU think is best for them. They are his kids and I think what he is trying to do with them is great. If you dont raise your kids to have the best chances in life then you have failed as a parent. He thinks having morals like he does and values such as his is the most beneficial path for his daughter, so thats the path he will try lead her on.
So keep this thread on topic and dont bash on a father who is leading by example to try give his daughter the best start he can in life.
daedalus wrote: I'm not arguing against him. I'm trying to understand.
At any rate, it's off topic. I'll drop it.
Yea thats true, just drop him a PM or something haha.
I think the problem with recasts is that there are too many outcomes involved all of which are different levels of badness? So if I got a recast but would have got a GW product then thats the recats taking money. But if I only got a recast and never intended to buy the real thing then TECHNICALLY nobody lost money ish. So its a lot more justifiable to do rather than physically taking something away from someone.
For example, if I steal a can of food from the local Pak'n'Save they have to sell 10 more to make up for that 1 can stolen. But If I buy a recast, GW is not at a direct loss etc
I always have the following code for whether or not piracy (in this case recasting) can be justified:
A) You must like the product. If you download something and then throw it away after trying for 5 minutes, I don't think it's wrong. Not so much of a deal for recasting.
B) You must be able to get the product. If a product is unavailable in your country, or shipping rates are exorbitant (see C), it's completely understandable to turn to cheaper alternatives.
C) You must be able to afford the product. If you are for example a poor student with barely any money to spare, you wouldn't buy the original.
Only when these three apply do I find purchasing recasts to be immoral, as only in this case the company misses out on money.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: Many people, including me, have said they have a problem with the idea of recasts - perhaps because it tends to encourage criminal behaviour, IP theft
No matter how often you repeat that, it's not going to be true. This seriously appears to be your argument, no? Say it's theft, be explained why it's not theft based on court precedent and the idea that words have actual meanings, dismiss those precedents as as "old" - as if that somehow negates their accuracy as settled law! - and then go back to repeating that IP infringement is theft, over and over again.
I gotta be honest, it's a pretty intellectually disingenuous way of arguing.
Brother Michael wrote: I always have the following code for whether or not piracy (in this case recasting) can be justified: A) You must like the product. If you download something and then throw it away after trying for 5 minutes, I don't think it's wrong. Not so much of a deal for recasting.
Wrong is still wrong though. That being said, I see it more like going to the library, or to the store, looking at their copy and if you like it, you buy it. If you don't, you don't buy it and don't use what you have downloaded.
B) You must be able to get the product. If a product is unavailable in your country, or shipping rates are exorbitant (see C), it's completely understandable to turn to cheaper alternatives.
Well if it's not available in your country then there is no lost sale. So is this wrong then? Is it breaking any laws since there is no sale to begin with in that country. Good point. Don't agree with the excuse of exorbitant shipping prices as see C
C) You must be able to afford the product. If you are for example a poor student with barely any money to spare, you wouldn't buy the original.
Only when these three apply do I find purchasing recasts to be immoral, as only in this case the company misses out on money.
Well if you can't afford it, you just have to go without then. Otherwise we are all just making excuses because we know it's wrong but trying to justify it. That being said, haven't we all bought something on the black market?
Now here is a question. A lot of excuses for not having recasts, is GW doesn't get any money. How is this any different from buying 2nd hand or used? GW is not getting any money from those sales, so is that immoral then? It's legal but just as immoral as recasts are because GW is not getting the money they could have had from a sale.
2) Counterfeiters do not specialize if they make GW products they could also be making counterfeit cloths,medication,car parts,aircraft parts,electronics, make up, perfume, children toys, food ,military electronics
Bear in mind, for those who like to 'Stick it to GW' that the recasters in question, even if they aren't producing dodgy medication or baby food, will probably be counterfieting Kromlech stuff.
Your counterfeiter isn't sticking it to The Man. He is THe Man.
Yeah....
No.
Spend five minutes browsing any of the multiple web locations we aren't allowed to mention by name (which in many cases are also chock full of legitimate product for substantially less than their UK RRP, with free shipping) and it is GW, GW, GW. Maybe the occasional Andrea or similar large collector's piece which, again, is vulnerable due to a high mark up.
If you were to find any of the smaller third party models, I'd suggest that comes down to the recaster being a wargamer and doing a bit on the side, and liking the model himself.
The only reason I wouldn't, regardless of game, is if it was genuinely difficult to tell what things were supposed to be. I have the same policy for "official" models though.
First off all you needed to say that it was a figure of speech, I am not known for old sayings that are used outside of the UK, so I can understand after that.
Secondly in apologise if I seemed insulting, I did not intend to be.
However my reasons why as are included from your last paragraph about fear. Yes it is good to have some fear but the fear you are talking about is instinctual fear, fear from the gut in order to survive and there is nothing wrong with that, its how we all live.
However there are individuals that use topics such as religion or power as a means to inflict fear upon others for their own gain which is abusive and I find wrong, a good example of individuals who abuse fear is the Kim-Un-whatever he's called in North Korea making his half of the country afraid of him for his own gain, similarly there will be individuals who will make others scared of them by using a religion as scare tactics, which I find wrong. That is extremism and bullying and should not be tolerated imo.
Anyho you are right, back to topic.
When looking at it all together it does seem that the copyright laws are in a convoluted pile because there are so many ways that each country views upon them, so it really has to be how the individual sees it imo.. My opinion on buying recasts is that it has to look superior in quality, not the same, not less, superior Otherwise I may as well just buy it from the Manufacturers, afterall is Buying from Ebay secondhand minis wrong? GW would not be getting my cash then, or secondhand of a friend? is that wrong too because GW is not getting my cash then as well?
Like I say I do and have bought shed tons off GW as in most of my product is original with only a few bits "legally" secondhand from friends looking to get some money and currently I have a Gorkanought on order to come in on Friday or Saturday so its not like I'm ripping them off, throwing a hippy towel on and screaming "Stick it to the man", to me its just if I fond a superior product then it just shows my that the manufacture has not done their job right as they are the ones that are supposed to give the highest quality for their product.
Col. Tartleton wrote: I'd be okay with someone recasting their own models, but I think buying recasts from a third party is wrong. It's bad for the industry and bad for people conducting business in general.
Like if I needed a few hundred clan rats it would be smart to buy a single box and then make resin copies of the sprues and use those to bulk out my force. That's respecting their intellectual property.
Selling those copies would be illegal. Infringing on intellectual property isn't as bad as theft. Its not as bad as selling stolen property or buying stolen property.
^^^This.^^^
I don't have a problem with copying things for my own use but I wouldn't even give them to someone, or accept copied items from anyone else.
If I were playing against someone who thought it important I knew where their army came from, I'd be thinking,
"Why is he boasting about breaking copyright law? Am I supposed to show him respect for it? What other Bad Things does he do? Is there a policeman's head in his duffel bag?"
Col. Tartleton wrote: I'd be okay with someone recasting their own models, but I think buying recasts from a third party is wrong. It's bad for the industry and bad for people conducting business in general.
Like if I needed a few hundred clan rats it would be smart to buy a single box and then make resin copies of the sprues and use those to bulk out my force. That's respecting their intellectual property.
Selling those copies would be illegal. Infringing on intellectual property isn't as bad as theft. Its not as bad as selling stolen property or buying stolen property.
^^^This.^^^
I don't have a problem with copying things for my own use but I wouldn't even give them to someone, or accept copied items from anyone else.
If I were playing against someone who thought it important I knew where their army came from, I'd be thinking,
"Why is he boasting about breaking copyright law? Am I supposed to show him respect for it? What other Bad Things does he do? Is there a policeman's head in his duffel bag?"
Whats the difference between recasting yourself and paying someone else to recast?
Is it ok to break the law as long as you do it yourself and not pay someone else to do it or something? I really cant a see a difference there.
I think the difference is that you are supporting someone's decision to break the law, by profiting off selling you recasts, even if you aren't breaking the law yourself. As he said he doesn't know what other criminal activity the person gets up to.
I think it's all pretty ridiculous to be honest. I watch my TV shows online. I somehow managed not to go on a cop killing murder spree or start a child trafficking ring. The only recaster I know is my 22 year old university friend, who in the army reserve and works a small job on the side. He hates G.W. and their undeniable overpricing, and cannot afford to play otherwise, so they have driven people to this point. He is happy to help friends by casting for them if we throw him a few dollars for his time.
SHUPPET wrote: I think the difference is that you are supporting someone's decision to break the law, by profiting off selling you recasts, even if you aren't breaking the law yourself. As he said he doesn't know what other criminal activity the person gets up to.
I think it's all pretty ridiculous to be honest. I watch my TV shows online. I somehow managed not to go on a cop killing murder spree or start a child trafficking ring. The only recaster I know is my 22 year old university friend, who in the army reserve and works a small job on the side. He hates G.W. and their undeniable overpricing, and cannot afford to play otherwise, so they have driven people to this point. He is happy to help friends by casting for them if we throw him a few dollars for his time.
Stores that sell recasts (the ones that cant be named) dont make them themselves though. Recasts are made buy a select few sellers then are distributed to those stores. For example, all those Reaver Titans you see? they are all made by the same guy. So if you ever buy a reaver titan recast, you know the quality will be great because that guy is renown for his amazing quality. So at worse, if you buy from the unnameable stores you are simply supporting that store buying from many counterfeiters. But if thats how someone feels, then they should just buy direct from the caster.
The recatser I know is just a guy who loves the models and playing fantasy who happens to live in china with a fair bit of cash and decided to start casting models and sell them to people. No webstore or anything.
But believe it or not, most of those sites we all know, dont have a lot of those models in stock physically. They are made to order most of the time with only the most popular kits on hand. Recasting isnt as huge as it looks. So if you order a recast and it takes more than 1 week to ship, you know its being made for you after you ordered it. Its not that big of a market im fairly sure. Not big enough to stock a lot of kits anyway.
Just like how the Tau Manta Ray is a made on order kit. Doesnt sell many so no point having a bunch sit there.
2) Counterfeiters do not specialize if they make GW products they could also be making counterfeit cloths,medication,car parts,aircraft parts,electronics, make up, perfume, children toys, food ,military electronics
Bear in mind, for those who like to 'Stick it to GW' that the recasters in question, even if they aren't producing dodgy medication or baby food, will probably be counterfieting Kromlech stuff.
Your counterfeiter isn't sticking it to The Man. He is THe Man.
Yeah....
No.
Spend five minutes browsing any of the multiple web locations we aren't allowed to mention by name (which in many cases are also chock full of legitimate product for substantially less than their UK RRP, with free shipping) and it is GW, GW, GW. Maybe the occasional Andrea or similar large collector's piece which, again, is vulnerable due to a high mark up.
If you were to find any of the smaller third party models, I'd suggest that comes down to the recaster being a wargamer and doing a bit on the side, and liking the model himself.
If you were to find any..
Actually I spent 5 seconds and found nonGW on the first site I came across. There seem to be quite a few. No just one or two items.
Automatically Appended Next Post: At 1/3 the retail price, with free shipping. Sounds a little suspicious. I don't think they are authentic or legitimate products.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Update: my goodness, even Perry Miniatures can be found there. Wow.
I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..
I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.
The best suppliers usually deal in word of mouth and email chains. Seen many folks talking about these types.
The concept of intellectual property, at least in the modern context, is in dire need of reform. Protecting an investment that requires substantial human effort (time, capital) in the form of research and development: 20 year patent.
Mickey Mouse brain fart idea: life time of author + 70 years.
Yeah, no. Sorry. If you're really good at creative art, you can excel and be famous at what you do. If you're efficient, you can sell a great service. But to go around hunting people down on little brain farts of ideas seems nonsense and a huge waste of resources. Art has merit and has its place, but sustainability from the arts is asking a bit much unless you're really good or supporting some form of major entertainment industry.
If Copyright followed Patents, which even the latter are pretty messed up, more so when applied to technolgies, Star Wars and Warhammer 40k would already be in the public domain. Think about that, instead of litigation, Games Workshop would have to keep being creative and offer the best service possibly while doing so. Instead, we get what we have now. Space Marines inside Space Marines (which is all a bullcrap ripoff of previous works throughout the 80s and 90s...). Copyright is arbitrary and dumb and copyright infringement is a waste.
I actively purchase models from game companies, I buy video games, I have Netflix, I use the library for books. I get nearly all of my media through legitimate means because I feel when you create a good product or service, you can get my dollars. There doesn't need to be a law for this. More so one that highly weights it more than massive engineering and scientific undertakings that have changed the world.
azreal13 wrote: I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..
I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.
Well, I just googled and it popped up. They were selling unit boxes for Warmachine at 19USD per box. I thought that was pretty low considering PP lists the same box of Cryx Satyxis Raiders at 59. Was there a sharp price drop recently?
If these are not legitimate, at least we know that they will counterfeit anything, as long as there is profit.
WYSIWYG the way it is, GW doesn't even give you the proper components to play 40k.
If you want to play Mech IG and use Melta Vets, where are you going to get a ton of Melta Guns? The only IG Melta Guns come in the Command Squad box. Say you have 4 squads of Melta Vets and a CCS. That's 16 Melta Guns. Do they really want you to buy 16 Command Squad boxes?
If you don't want people to recast parts then sell them complete kits.
azreal13 wrote: I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..
I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.
Well, I just googled and it popped up. They were selling unit boxes for Warmachine at 19USD per box. I thought that was pretty low considering PP lists the same box of Cryx Satyxis Raiders at 59. Was there a sharp price drop recently?
If these are not legitimate, at least we know that they will counterfeit anything, as long as there is profit.
I found those. Those are resin, thus obviously cheaper than the metal counterparts. Also, we know PP prices are high, but the value is better than Games Workshop. When you spend $59 for a box, you're done unlike...
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NuggzTheNinja wrote: WYSIWYG the way it is, GW doesn't even give you the proper components to play 40k.
If you want to play Mech IG and use Melta Vets, where are you going to get a ton of Melta Guns? The only IG Melta Guns come in the Command Squad box. Say you have 4 squads of Melta Vets and a CCS. That's 16 Melta Guns. Do they really want you to buy 16 Command Squad boxes?
If you don't want people to recast parts then sell them complete kits.
Kojiro wrote: they came from China but there's only so many ways to get those last few 1989 marines.... and the prices were good. But then they showed up and looked so shiny...
Shinyness or lack thereof is NOT an indicator of whether or not they are recasts. When GW went lead-free in the 90s, they themselves ALSO did a whole bunch of shiny casts (the newer alloy had a LOT of tin in it, and was very shiny, hard and brittle, too - pieces when clipped off had a habit of ricocheting off walls).
Coming from China is ALSO not, in and of itself a good indicator. The two together is a better indicator, but these alone are also not considered "proof".
A good recast cannot be told from the original (unless the original or copy are in different materials). I have "identical" (as in catalog numbers, out of GW blisters bought OFF the rack at a GW store) models that are cast from different metals. Pre/post metal changeover.
I actively purchase models from game companies, I buy video games, I have Netflix, I use the library for books. I get nearly all of my media through legitimate means because I feel when you create a good product or service, you can get my dollars. There doesn't need to be a law for this. More so one that highly weights it more than massive engineering and scientific undertakings that have changed the world.
True if something is worth it and you don't feel like the seller is making a fool of you , you can do many things. I have 3 editions of Wheel of time. A polish one , the black border english one , the old colored one too and If I could get my hands on the ones from Japan I would instantly buy them.
azreal13 wrote: I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..
I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.
Well, I just googled and it popped up. They were selling unit boxes for Warmachine at 19USD per box. I thought that was pretty low considering PP lists the same box of Cryx Satyxis Raiders at 59. Was there a sharp price drop recently?
If these are not legitimate, at least we know that they will counterfeit anything, as long as there is profit.
It depends. A lot of PP comes in 6 or 10 man boxes; be sure that your comparing like vs like. There are plenty of legitimate sellers that often have fantastic deals (30% off or better) like Discount Games Store. The six man raider box retails for $29.99 so you'd be able to find them legitimately for around $20; I didn't look hard and found them for $23.
azreal13 wrote: [..., but I'm fairly sure lying and deceiving in the clear cut sense of selling something as one thing when it is another is universally frowned upon.
Not really, no. In some cultures the onus is on the buyer to have done their homework and know what they are buying, in the expectation that obviously the seller is going to say whatever he needs to say in order to persuade you to buy his product...
Whats the difference between recasting yourself and paying someone else to recast?
Is it ok to break the law as long as you do it yourself and not pay someone else to do it or something? I really cant a see a difference there.
Just wondering.
I don't knowingly buy counterfeit items. I don't care if my money goes towards someone's nice house or camel smuggling or funding North Korea's economy, I don't want to give my money to criminals.
Am I a hypocrite? Yes. I've copied music CD's onto blank CD's and cassettes so I can keep the original in a safe place and use the copy in the car or at work.
But, I did the copying work. No money changed hands and I get to enjoy the product of musicians in a greater range of locations.
What *would* that musician get, if I bought a second copy of their album? An extra 50p?
If I were to recast something it'd be because I need one or a few of those items, that would be economically wasteful to purchase in their original boxset. Right now I need some Cadian torso's, and it's uneconomic to spend almost £20 on a boxset when I only need five (at most) out of a hundred components. I don't want to buy these items from a bitz seller online because I still think paying £1 each for them (plus postage) is excessive. It would be cheaper to cast my own.
If Games Workshop still had their mail order bitz service I would happily have bought torsos (as well as other parts) from them because, as the manufacturer, they'd be able to make and supply everything I needed - something no bitz seller has been able to do for me.
If you want to play Mech IG and use Melta Vets, where are you going to get a ton of Melta Guns? The only IG Melta Guns come in the Command Squad box. Say you have 4 squads of Melta Vets and a CCS. That's 16 Melta Guns. Do they really want you to buy 16 Command Squad boxes?
Exactly my point. Now, if GW's Bitz Service was still in operation they'd have made a few bucks from you and me. But it's not, so they don't. Whose loss is it?
Whats the difference between recasting yourself and paying someone else to recast?
Is it ok to break the law as long as you do it yourself and not pay someone else to do it or something? I really cant a see a difference there.
Just wondering.
I don't knowingly buy counterfeit items. I don't care if my money goes towards someone's nice house or camel smuggling or funding North Korea's economy, I don't want to give my money to criminals.
Am I a hypocrite? Yes. I've copied music CD's onto blank CD's and cassettes so I can keep the original in a safe place and use the copy in the car or at work.
But, I did the copying work. No money changed hands and I get to enjoy the product of musicians in a greater range of locations.
What *would* that musician get, if I bought a second copy of their album? An extra 50p?
If I were to recast something it'd be because I need one or a few of those items, that would be economically wasteful to purchase in their original boxset. Right now I need some Cadian torso's, and it's uneconomic to spend almost £20 on a boxset when I only need five (at most) out of a hundred components. I don't want to buy these items from a bitz seller online because I still think paying £1 each for them (plus postage) is excessive. It would be cheaper to cast my own.
If Games Workshop still had their mail order bitz service I would happily have bought torsos (as well as other parts) from them because, as the manufacturer, they'd be able to make and supply everything I needed - something no bitz seller has been able to do for me.
So you admit to being a hypocrite. Thats fine by me then, as long as you acknowledge so. So in other words you want to keep all the benefits of recasting to yourself and not share it.
So GW gave you extra legs for posability, but you decided you want to abuse this and get extra torso bits to get around the limit of 10 men per box instead of buying another box or instead of buying a box of 5 snap-fits.
Dude, stop trying to justify your recasting Just admit that its technically wrong and that you recast (if you do). There is no difference to recasting some torso's to avoid buying a GW kit, and paying someone else to give you a GW kit instead of buying it from GW. None at all.
Its uneconomic to buy a reaver titan from FW for that ridiculous price when I could buy one for 500 NZD. Its cutting costs exactly like casting extra torso bits to get around the 10 man per box purchase. They are both the same thing.
“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.” ― Robert A. Heinlein
Funny how it was pointed out that GW needed to "factor in" copying of their product and increase their product price accordingly.
If the prices were reasonable, very few would copy or purchase copies of the product.
I have a particular dislike for product where the strategy is to get "impulse" sales which GW tries for.
Anyway, on-topic there would be few instances we would have any way of knowing if the models were re-casts so it is a bit contrived.
I voted no. Of course that is assuming I could even tell what my opponent was using.
There are two places that I play games: my house and the FLGS. At my house, I know exactly where all of the mini's came from and I refuse to support recasters.
My FLGS provides a solid gaming environment. Because of this I believe supporting them with my purchases is very important. As a side bonus, they give great discounts.
So if someone is playing at the FLGS with recast mini's then they are very likely not supporting the FLGS in any way. Which means there are now two strikes against them in my book. I like both my FLGS and GW and would like to see them continue to do business for at least as long as I'm in this hobby. That means buying the real stuff.
To be blunt (and only focussing on one aspect).. all this talk of supporting the FLGS. I've been to a number of GW stores and
A) The majority are friendly in so far as they talk to you and try to get you to buy everything and it becomes pushy.
B) They have a 'ticket' system by which you only get to play games in them if you have earned 'tickets' from buying things. This means that as you get closer to completing your army, you aren't allowed to play anymore because you're not earning tickets. It's a reel-'em-in, suck-'em-dry and discard strategy that is less than friendly.
Can we change the FLGS to just LGS because I find them distinctly only FLGS as long as they can suck the money from your wallet
B) They have a 'ticket' system by which you only get to play games in them if you have earned 'tickets' from buying things. This means that as you get closer to completing your army, you aren't allowed to play anymore because you're not earning tickets. It's a reel-'em-in, suck-'em-dry and discard strategy that is less than friendly.
They have a 'ticket' system? Which store is this? I thought the manager who'd instituted a system like this has been reprimanded?
“I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.” ― Robert A. Heinlein
Funny how it was pointed out that GW needed to "factor in" copying of their product and increase their product price accordingly.
If the prices were reasonable, very few would copy or purchase copies of the product.
I have a particular dislike for product where the strategy is to get "impulse" sales which GW tries for.
Anyway, on-topic there would be few instances we would have any way of knowing if the models were re-casts so it is a bit contrived.
Well, factoring in the cost of piracy is a big deal to many manufacturers. I'm sure there is a legitimate process for adding that cost into their business model, I don't actually doubt that.
Thing is, so long as anyone can cheat the company, regardless of how much their product costs, people will do it. I have heard of multiple households sharing one netflix connection because it's cheaper.
Really, it's 8.00 a month and they work where I work, so I know they are pulling down minimum 60/year, and they have senority on me, so probably a little over 70.
Just goes to show, people will always steal, even if they don't need it or really gain anything from it. I hate to be the guy to quote batman, but some people really do just want to watch the world burn.
How is it a cost to firms, when pirated stuff would never be bought at the original price. People that want a original are few , and buy the originals anyway, while those that bought recast would never buy stuff at the official cost.
If anything, GW is far more morally responsible for supporting criminals than anyone buying a couple of miniatures for their little army. GW's decision to greedily overcharge for everything with self-entitled ideals that their product is worth whatever they can make people pay for it, without even holding themselves to any standard of quality, is the reason that this market exists. They have made this lane a very profitable one for the recaster and a very thrifty one for the buyer, and in their greed they refuse to charge sensible prices to put an end to this, instead choosing to apparently tax the paying customer through price mark-ups for lost revenue in piracy. They have done nothing but very knowingly support the recaster, creating his lane and strengthening it, knowing what needs to be done to but being unwilling to sacrifice a cent of the undeserved percentage of their profit margin to do so. No, it's not letting the pirates win. It's charging a fair price for your product and taking back full control of the market and it's profits. The original decision to squeeze more out of your customer base by ramping up profit margins has given people a profitable way to make money selling your product for you at prices closer to what you should be selling them for.
SHUPPET wrote: If anything, GW is far more morally responsible for supporting criminals than anyone buying a couple of miniatures for their little army. GW's decision to greedily overcharge for everything with self-entitled ideals that their product is worth whatever they can make people pay for it, without even holding themselves to any standard of quality, is the reason that this market exists. They have made this lane a very profitable one for the recaster and a very thrifty one for the buyer, and in their greed they refuse to charge sensible prices to put an end to this, instead choosing to apparently tax the paying customer through price mark-ups for lost revenue in piracy. They have done nothing but very knowingly support the recaster, creating his lane and strengthening it, knowing what needs to be done to but being unwilling to sacrifice a cent of the undeserved percentage of their profit margin to do so. No, it's not letting the pirates win. It's charging a fair price for your product and taking back full control of the market and it's profits. The original decision to squeeze more out of your customer base by ramping up profit margins has given people a profitable way to make money selling your product for you at prices closer to what you should be selling them for.
Exactly this have an exalt
I have two fire raptors one from FW and one from China, the one from China is the same quality in detail but the cast was far better I didn't have to straighten anything, postage was brilliant it took 2 weeks to get to my front door. The FW one however was shocking I had to return it and the replacement wasn't much better either.
The reason I have turned to buying from recasters is the fact that quality 9/10 is better than FW. GW and FW have become complacent and greedy and think people will buy their stock because it's legit WRONG why should I buy an inferior product for more than I get copied one ?? And no copy right stuff doesn't bother me
I also don't agree with the way FW makes it's money. Why should I pay them the extortionate postage ?? Oh yea right so they can try to force you to spend 250 so I can get the free postage.
wouldn't the same rule apply to scratch-build stuff?
i recently got introduced to the 'forgeryworld' of recasts and i havent looked back.
sure, there are some minor quality issues, but when an imperial avenger strike fighter is £23 instead of the official £85 including free shipping from CHINA, it makes me wonder how much forgeworld and GW have profited from me.
i own a warhound, 12 thallax, titan tech preist, LR achillies, 15 mk4 marines, mk4 command group, 2 valthex, and a storm eagle.
when i first saw 40k (around the time of the release of 2nd edition) i actually saw epic scale first and i wanted an epic style battle in 40k scale. now the chinese re-casts mean that me and my mates can actually afford to do it!
my final words are: you'd have to be a bit of a child to have an issue with an opponent using re-casts. (or just bitter that you spent loads on the same stuff) that said, there is a certain pride in having the genuine product.
Bello Canis was £317 but it makes me smile every time i look at it.
At my local about 10 people including the owner chucked in for a large forgeryworld order. He sells much more than GW products, laments the terrible pricing of GW with customers, but sells it anyway for everyone's convenience (and he'd be crazy not to have their products for sale in a gaming store).
I'd be quite the hypocrite if I said no, to say the truth. I tend to only get stuff I can't find at a FLGS, though - its always important to suppprt the stores I play in. For instance, my 3 Riptides? All from GW. Most of my FW? The LGS don't make money off that. Saves me some money I can in turn use at said stores.
Makumba wrote: How is it a cost to firms, when pirated stuff would never be bought at the original price. People that want a original are few , and buy the originals anyway, while those that bought recast would never buy stuff at the official cost.
And you are 100% sure all people would 'never' had bought them, even if recasts were not a option at all? Did everyone who ever bought a recast would have just not bought the model if GW was the only source of it?
Point is, some people are able to pay, some people buy recasts as they are cheaper but without the option they would have payed the original price.
I see a lot of arguments stem from the assumption that people would have never have paid the owner for the product, so there is nothing taken from the owner. While that may be true of some people and some particular products, it will not be true for all.
It's not just GW stuff that's being replicated now, with the rise of smaller games there are other company recasts. X-Wing is one, but they are really crazy expensive models for the quality.
I assume by linking that image that you think GW pays their sculptors and writers 50% of the proceeds of their model and book sales? I hate to say it mate but that's not actually the case, they get paid a smidge less. It's almost as though GW aren't some small indie company, but are in fact one of the large ones that abuses the greatly distended copyright law that yes, people are right to want changed.
I assume by linking that image that you think GW pays their sculptors and writers 50% of the proceeds of their model and book sales? I hate to say it mate but that's not actually the case, they get paid a smidge less. It's almost as though GW aren't some small indie company, but are in fact one of the large ones that abuses the greatly distended copyright law that yes, people are right to want changed.
Your assumption is incorrect, mate.
By linking this image I'm addressing those who reckon that, in general, copying stuff and abusing copyright is cool.
As I've mentioned frequently, I'd not necessarily have a problem with someone fielding recasts; but the notion of people supporting counterfeiters, over a legitimate company, is dubious, and sure ain't sticking it to The Man.
Your inability to distinguish beyond generalities doesn't aid your perception of the issue. Ignoring GWs copyrights *is* sticking it to the man - electronic civil disobedience:
"Blatant disregard of copyright law by millions of Internet users every day on file sharing networks might also be considered a form of constant ECD, as the people doing it have decided to simply ignore a law that they disagree with."
The ability to argue beyond posting a few hackneyed wikipedia links might make this thread more stimulating and informative.
Even wikipedia doesn't assert that counterfeiters are promoting "electronic civil disobedience." Counterfeiters are simply after a fast buck and don't, in most cases, care how they make it.
They're not picking on GW 'cos they're so right on, they're picking on GW, as well as smaller companies like kromlech (whose meganobz seems especially popular with recasters), in order to make $$$$ without bothering to do their own design work.
azreal13 wrote: I've spent enough time browsing those sites to be a tad skeptical that you've looked at the right thing or in the right places..
I hadn't meant that it was wargaming product that was available legitimately, but there ARE legitimate sellers of wargames product on at least some, but the price is comparable with domestic, as you'd expect.
Some of the morality over this debate is indeed a grey area; it's for that reason that I've posted I'd likely play against someone with recasts. But this post is entirely and demonstrably wrong; look at the main site selling recasts, and you'll find five different suppliers for kromlech's klanking destoyers, without even scrolling past the first page for "Ork'. At around $30 including postage, I have the feeling they're not legit.
Because obviously I should pt the same effort into a forum post that I would a report, right? Notably more than put forth by some others, but anyway...
The counterfeiters are out for money sure, but they're merely the means by which we choose to ignore copyrights just as torrent trackers are the means by which you pirate media. We're the ones choosing to pick on GW here. If someone chooses to pay for kromlech recasts that's on them - most (all?) people in this thread have said they're much more selective with the products they buy recasts of, just as they are the media they pirate. Without numbers on how much kromlech stuff recasters sell it's hard to say how much it impacts them but with virtually no start up costs to recasting them, it's easy enough to offer the product even if there's a fraction of the demand for a recast GW product.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: The ability to argue beyond posting a few hackneyed wikipedia links might make this thread more stimulating and informative.
Even wikipedia doesn't assert that counterfeiters are promoting "electronic civil disobedience." Counterfeiters are simply after a fast buck and don't, in most cases, care how they make it.
They're not picking on GW 'cos they're so right on, they're picking on GW, and kromlech, in order to make $$$$ without bothering to do their own design work.
Pot, meet the kettle that posted an image that is just as ,if not more so, irrelevant. As was pointedout by another poster, your apples/oranges contribution isn't pertinent to the business model pursued by GW.
The reason that the entertainment industry hasn't been destroyed by pirating? People who pirate most likely would not have purchased any way so sales are not necessarily lost.
agnosto wrote: The reason that the entertainment industry hasn't been destroyed by pirating? People who pirate most likely would not have purchased any way so sales are not necessarily lost.
The gaming industry - the parts still around at least - also adjusted its business model as necessary, which ties in to your point - if they didn't adjust, people wouldn't have bought the products. Gaben is praised as the saviour of PC gaming which whilst a little overblown isn't far off - steam was a great compromise that most pc gamers were happy to settle on. We buy a license, steam itself is DRM but it's unobtrusive. In return we get value added over the initial purchase, ie. a product superior to the pirated version, and we get it at a good price (ie. steam sales).
GW does nothing of the sort. Far from adding value to their products, they actively cripple them by putting advertising sections in the middle of their rules which pirates don't have to deal with as they just delete the segment from their pdf. Dataslates, supplements and day 1 white dwarf releases fix your codex? No problem, merge it into your pdf rather than carrying around 4 books and a tablet!
I believe purchasing recasts are wrong, but its important to understand WHY people are purchasing recasts instead of the official GW models. If GW is doing everything right 100% I'm sure no one will even think of recasts as an option. The reason we are concern about recasts is evident that something is wrong. Please also note that even though it is recasts and 'fake' unlike movies and music we still 'pay' for the recasts items. It is a purchasing decision nonetheless and similar to buying from 3rd party alternatives or ebay.
I have only recently purchased a few recasts items, in the past 5 years I only purchased new products from GW and FLGS, here are some observations.
1. Costs - Obviously recasts are cheaper, and GW hates it. GW wants us player to buy direct from them. But high costs have driven players to look for cheaper 3rd party alternatives and second hand sales. These affect GW just as much as recasts.
2. Bits - GW Kits have tons of bits! The good side is the hugh amount of customization, the bad side is you are left with a lot of bits you paid for but can't use. Or you only have 1 bit in a box when you needed 5. Recasts can fill out those missing bits that you are missing when GW refuse to provide the means for you to affordiably purchase those bits.
3. Shipping - A lot of recasts sites offer free shipping regardless of value purchased, GW Canada offers free shipping for over $80CAD, orders under you pay $24 shipping. Its not the main factor for going recasts but man. GW needs to provide better customer services to compete!
4. Quality - Recasts quality varies upon on what and who you purchased from, it is a risk of purchase, I have seem sub par quality but at the same time I have seen better than expected quality from recasts. Recasts or not, I can see some recaster acturally put in extra effort to make the recast appealing to the purchaser.
Am I proud of purchasing recasts? No, but I'm not proud of myself purchasing offical GW boxsets either as there is always a feeling of being ripped off. $94CAD for that 3 model centerioun kit when a similar 3 killa kan is $55.5CAD? In the end I think it is up to GW to get rid of recasts by making their products enticing. The Stormclaw starter set was a great idea and sold out in hours. I'm pretty sure if it is widely avaliable noone will buy recasts from those kits right?
For the sake of keeping things emotion-free and legal, we’ll cut straight to the chase and forgo the insults and accusations:
It is and has been for quite some time our position that Victory Records is an artist-hostile, morally corrupt and generally dishonest company, with whom we have had the displeasure of being associated due to a contract that was signed years ago. We’re not writing this today to air grievances, of which there are many; numerous bands’ struggles with Victory are well-documented (and many more are sealed by a court of law), so we figured we’re going to skip the allegations and try to solve the problem, as we see it.
We’re writing today to ask you to please boycott all Streetlight related items by not purchasing any of our records or merchandise from Victory’s website, any traditional CD stores, online third party retailers or any digital distribution service (iTunes, Amazon etc). Victory has a long-time reputation of pocketing all of the proceeds from a band’s music and merch, with shady accounting and generally bully-ish behavior. If you want to support Streetlight, our music and our ability to tour and continue to release music, please make all SM related purchases from our own webstore, The RISC Store (www.riscstore.com), or come out to a show and buy a shirt or cd from us directly. In regards to getting the music we make, you can buy directly from us, or, alternately, we’re sure you can find a way to get the tunes onto your computer that may not be, ahem, traditional… Speaking a Bit metaphorically, there is a Torrent of methods to accomplish this, and Google is your always loyal friend…
As many of you know, we are in the final stages of recording our new album. It will be out and available this summer, whether via Victory, or some other method. We refuse to let our constant battles with our own record label hold back the album’s release (we can take nearly forever to finish an album on our own, thank you very much) and we look forward to being free from Victory’s clutches once our contract with them ends this summer.
We wish Victory Records no ill will or harm. Ok, that’s not entirely true. But what we want more than seeing the bad guy get his comeuppance, to see the villain get bitch-slapped by karma, is freedom from a company we abhor. We want the money made by our record and merch sales to help fund the band, not a company we’re ashamed to be associated with. We don’t care about SoundScans, or charts, or success as it’s measured by an industry we can’t stand; we just want our hard work to go towards something better than the record labels that destroy the spirit of independent music.
Thanks for your time and support and we’ll see you soon.
If you don't like a company and don't want to support it, but still want their product, you have a choice:
Buy their product and hang your morals.
-or-
Don't buy their product and keep your morals.
Attempting to circumvent this choice by stealing from the company is a self-defeating action, because a) stealing is wrong and you've hung your morals, and b) you're still supporting the company by showing off their products, even stolen.
Except that clearly isn't the decision, because there aren't just two options.
That's a fine theoretical debate, but without spending any great time I can add two real world options to that list
Buy a legitimate competing product from another company (admittedly depends on how narrow your definition of 'product' is) and keep your morals
Buy an illegitimate product from a non-official producer and "hang" your morals, assuming you consider it an immoral action in the first place (which has been mentioned can have cultural and personal factors affecting that consideration)
Furyou Miko wrote: If you don't like a company and don't want to support it, but still want their product, you have a choice:
Buy their product and hang your morals.
-or-
Don't buy their product and keep your morals.
Attempting to circumvent this choice by stealing from the company is a self-defeating action, because a) stealing is wrong and you've hung your morals, and b) you're still supporting the company by showing off their products, even stolen.
Your morals are not my morals. I don't feel any guilt when I buy GW recasts.
Your morals are not my morals. I don't feel any guilt when I buy GW recasts.
So, are you denying that it's stealing
Yes.
Nobody is taking anything from anyone.
IP infringement is not stealing, so unless you think people are flying to Beijing, breaking into someone's garage and loading themselves up with recast models, it isn't stealing.
IP infringement is a civil matter, theft is criminal.
It is breaking the law (potentially) but it isn't theft.
Your morals are not my morals. I don't feel any guilt when I buy GW recasts.
So, are you denying that it's stealing, or denying that stealing is wrong?
The former, although I also believe that not all stealing is wrong, and there's a lot of taking-people's-stuff going on in the world that is very wrong indeed but isn't classified as stealing because the rich write their own laws.
Your morals are not my morals. I don't feel any guilt when I buy GW recasts.
So, are you denying that it's stealing, or denying that stealing is wrong?
It really depends on your moral ruler. Everyone's different. To some they believe buying recasts fits their moral compass becuase they did 'pay' for it. Maybe for you its only buying models made by GW. As for GW their moral compass is also different. They will say buying second hand official models from ebay is just as bad as recast because GW is not profiting for the sale, also Online retailers selling kits at a discount or break up the kits to sell bits are bad also becuase 'they are taking advantage of the hard work of GW and local game stores.'
So how will you define your own moral compass? by your own stick or with GW's, whom created the game?
IP infringement is a civil matter, theft is criminal.
As has been mentioned here many times before, a lot of IP infringement - most notably counterfeiting - is indeed a criminal offence in both the US and UK.
The same US and UK government sites that state it's a crime also point out the link between counterfeiting and other criminal and gang activities.
I also believe that not all stealing is wrong, and there's a lot of taking-people's-stuff going on in the world that is very wrong indeed but isn't classified as stealing because the rich write their own laws.
I think most people buy into a moral continuum like this. I guess I do. But what I think is dodgy is saying GW are bad guys and it's OK to steal from them because their toys cost more than people like to pay.
There are so many companies who rip us off -utility companies, banks, who pocket profits but expect us to underwrite their risk, or Nestle who believe that people have no right to clean water - that it seems ludicrous to tar a toy soldier company with the same brush. We might not like all of what they do - I certainly don't - but to steal from them, and assume you're morally superior, is a big stretch.
azreal13 wrote:Except that clearly isn't the decision, because there aren't just two options.
That's a fine theoretical debate, but without spending any great time I can add two real world options to that list
Buy a legitimate competing product from another company (admittedly depends on how narrow your definition of 'product' is) and keep your morals
Buy an illegitimate product from a non-official producer and "hang" your morals, assuming you consider it an immoral action in the first place (which has been mentioned can have cultural and personal factors affecting that consideration)
How are those 'two real world options added'? Your first option of going to a competing company is just "not buying the company's product and keeping your morals." And the other option is just saying that my second option is dependent on personal morality, which... frankly, is crap.
azreal13 wrote:
Yes.
Nobody is taking anything from anyone.
IP infringement is not stealing, so unless you think people are flying to Beijing, breaking into someone's garage and loading themselves up with recast models, it isn't stealing.
IP infringement is a civil matter, theft is criminal.
It is breaking the law (potentially) but it isn't theft.
I don't really care about the fancy words of lawyers. Stealing someone's brain work is stealing just as if you were stealing the notebook it was written down in.
Once you paint a recasted model nobody can tell its recasted unless you tell them it is. The only way you would know is if they told you. I have a few recasted models and saved more then 70% off retail (which is actually a lot due to the models i bought). I challenge you to look through my gallery and tell me which models are recasted?
IP infringement is a civil matter, theft is criminal.
As has been mentioned here many times before, a lot of IP infringement - most notably counterfeiting - is indeed a criminal offence in both the US and UK.
The same US and UK government sites that state it's a crime also point out the link between counterfeiting and other criminal and gang activities.
Except that counterfeiting and IPA infringement are separate offences.
Interestingly, I had a quick Google with regard to the specifics of counterfeiting and discovered this..
The process of fraudulently manufacturing, altering, or distributing a product that is of lesser value than the genuine product.
Counterfeiting is a criminal offense when it involves an intent to defraud in passing off the counterfeit item. The law contains exemptions for collector's items and items that are so obviously dissimilar from the original that a reasonable person would not consider them real. However, making a poor copy is no defense if the intent to defraud exists.
Emphasis mine.
Most of the listings I've seen for recasts explicitly state, in pigeon English at least, that they aren't originals, and they are offered for sale at a substantial discount, and as has often been said, the end product is often of superior quality.
Difficult to make an argument that they're counterfeits from this layperson's POV.
According to United States law, I am not stealing or committing any crime by purchasing counterfeit goods. That said, I believe New York City is the only place in the US where purchase is illegal.
So no, I'm not stealing from anyone.
Furyou Miko wrote: I don't really care about the fancy words of lawyers. Stealing someone's brain work is stealing just as if you were stealing the notebook it was written down in.
No, it's really not. I'm not taking anything from anyone. Nobody is losing out on anything if I copy something, as long as I wasn't going to buy it in either case.
Most of the listings I've seen for recasts explicitly state, in pigeon English at least, that they aren't originals, and they are offered for sale at a substantial discount, and as has often been said, the end product is often of superior quality.
Difficult to make an argument that they're counterfeits from this layperson's POV.
This argument has repeated itself for so long that I'm hallucinating : I'm imagining all those words like "Forge World" and "GW" I can see on the main recast site, right in front of me. (It's the same recast site where I'm hallucinating five Kromlech recasts on one page). ALso I'm hallucinating that a huge number of listings use GW (or Kromlech) photos to sell their product.
Gotta say I admire your front for posting that there's no attempt to pass a recast off as an original, right next to a post that boasts you're fine with recasts, as no one can tell them from an original!
azreal13 wrote:Except that clearly isn't the decision, because there aren't just two options.
That's a fine theoretical debate, but without spending any great time I can add two real world options to that list
Buy a legitimate competing product from another company (admittedly depends on how narrow your definition of 'product' is) and keep your morals
Buy an illegitimate product from a non-official producer and "hang" your morals, assuming you consider it an immoral action in the first place (which has been mentioned can have cultural and personal factors affecting that consideration)
How are those 'two real world options added'? Your first option of going to a competing company is just "not buying the company's product and keeping your morals." And the other option is just saying that my second option is dependent on personal morality, which... frankly, is crap.
azreal13 wrote:
Yes.
Nobody is taking anything from anyone.
IP infringement is not stealing, so unless you think people are flying to Beijing, breaking into someone's garage and loading themselves up with recast models, it isn't stealing.
IP infringement is a civil matter, theft is criminal.
It is breaking the law (potentially) but it isn't theft.
I don't really care about the fancy words of lawyers. Stealing someone's brain work is stealing just as if you were stealing the notebook it was written down in.
Please settle on one argument, if you're asserting that buying recasts is morally wrong, fine, but as has been said, that is a personal line in the sand.
If you're going to try and argue the legalities of it, don't hand wave away responses which illustrate that what you said wasn't correct.
If anything, I'm "stealing" from WotC, Mantic and FFG when I buy recast GW models, because that's where my money would be going if recasts didn't exist.
Hivefleet Oblivion wrote: This argument has repeated itself for so long that I'm hallucinating : I'm imagining all those words like "Forge World" and "GW" I can see on the main recast site, right in front of me.
Gotta say I admire your front for posting that there's no attempt to pass a recast off as an original, right next to a post that boasts you're fine with recasts, as no on can tell them from an original!
They also have a disclaimer stating they aren't original, which can also be inferred from the ridiculously low selling price.
No, you're not hallucinating this post, I'm just restating the bit from my previous post you conveniently disregarded because it didn't fit your argument.
Furyou Miko wrote: I don't really care about the fancy words of lawyers. Stealing someone's brain work is stealing just as if you were stealing the notebook it was written down in.
It largely just comes down to an argument of semantics. Legally, it's not stealing. That's because lawyers have to have very specific definitions of things. The more general common-tongue definition of stealing is broader and can encompass what we're talking about here.
I still just tend to think as a society it is beneficial to pay the money to the person who actually created the content or simply take your business to another legitimate company. I know that different societies have different views on it, but I don't want to live in those different societies either. If I wanted to live in India or China, I'd move to India or China. As a western society (which I think most users on this board are from) I think we should be aiming to promote the arts by buying from the actual artists. If you don't like what the artist is producing, don't agree with the artist's price/terms, or don't like the company that is publishing/distributing the artist's works, go to a different artist.
The problem I see with the whole "civil disobedience" thing is that: a) while I agree copyright law is flawed, I think the principle of the artist maintaining some rights to their creation is a good way to go, b) at the end of the day, you aren't being disobedient to an oppressive government regime, you are being disobedient to a company that you don't like, a company which is trying to sell you entirely non-essential items for your entertainment, it's very hard to get past the "self entitled" to see the "righteous disobedience".
Now, if it's not illegal in your country to recast and/or purchase recasts, it just comes down to the supposed immorality of it, and that in the end is a personal choice and so I don't go harshly on people who do purchase recasts, it mostly just saddens me that we, as a society, are more self entitled to buy cheaper recasts from parasites than we are willing to support our own genuine artists.
As for playing a game... it's a game... when it comes to actually playing the game, I don't really care where your models came from.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ..it mostly just saddens me that we, as a society, are more self entitled to buy cheaper recasts from parasites than we are willing to support our own genuine artists.
Indeed. I am seeing older friends who are writers, photographers, musicians, who never made much money, having what they made stolen from them, living in, in at least one case, near penury. They weren't ripped off by Chinese recasters, but big companies like Hulton Getty, Google, and Amazon.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: ..it mostly just saddens me that we, as a society, are more self entitled to buy cheaper recasts from parasites than we are willing to support our own genuine artists.
Indeed. I am seeing older friends who are writers, photographers, musicians, who never made much money, having what they made stolen from them, living in, in at least one case, near penury. They weren't ripped off by Chinese recasters, but big companies like Hulton Getty, Google, and Amazon.
I think any artist who is genuinely good at his trade could make more money just by putting his stuff on torrent sites with a link to a Paypal donate button than selling through publishing/distribution companies. The money they leech from both customers and artists must outweigh any losses to artists from piracy by orders of magnitude.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think any artist who is genuinely good at his trade could make more money just by putting his stuff on torrent sites with a link to a Paypal donate button than selling through publishing/distribution companies. The money they leech from both customers and artists must outweigh any losses to artists from piracy by orders of magnitude.
I don't really think so. Maybe they could. Definitely a few lucky ones could the same way a few lucky ones get picked up by big publishers and put in the limelight, I think it would come down more to luck than skill. Certainly a few people that have already gotten famous of the backs of bigger companies could break off and go indie successfully. People tend to not notice stuff unless it's shoved in their face or they go specifically looking for it, that's why publishers/distributors exist in the first place, if it didn't work, artists wouldn't be willing to sign their lives away.
In the end, I think it's up to the artist to decide whether they are going to sign their lives away with a publisher/distributor and up to the customer to decide if they'll support the artist through the big bad company or simply support indies instead.
It's hard to get noticed, sure. But wouldn't more artists get noticed if the publishers weren't always jamming just a handful of the latest fad artists, picked for max profits rather than any real quality, down our throats? Obviously we can't just switch over overnight, but it'll happen.
Buying a Leman Russ from GW doesn't support the artist, though. The artist has been already paid for modeling the Leman Russ so buying a recast of it isn't stealing from him. Sure, supporting GW by buying their products ensures that the modeler remains employed at GW but that's really about it.
I'll repeat myself as I feel this need repeating: If recasters in China can make products of similar quality for much less is it really the consumers fault for opting for the option that costs less? I believe it's GW's fault for nickle and diming their consumers to the point where they've destroyed consumer loyalty and made the counterfeits as attractive as they are.
TheCustomLime wrote: Buying a Leman Russ from GW doesn't support the artist, though. The artist has been already paid for modeling the Leman Russ so buying a recast of it isn't stealing from him. Sure, supporting GW by buying their products ensures that the modeler remains employed at GW but that's really about it.
Supporting the modeler by ensuring they stay employed at GW is still supporting the modeler. The modeler chose to do business that way.
And while I said artist, it isn't JUST the artist you're supporting. GW are still the ones doing the hard yards to get the product to you. The same thing happens with mainstream music and movies... people complain about the big budget companies but the big budget movies wouldn't exist without the big budget companies giving the money to the artists to create them and then spending millions on advertising to draw in the big money so that more big budget movies can be made.
If you don't want to support that infrastructure, IMO, you should just go indie instead.
I'll repeat myself as I feel this need repeating: If recasters in China can make products of similar quality for much less is it really the consumers fault for opting for the option that costs less?
Except they will ALWAYS be able to produce recasts cheaper. Not only because wages are less. The recasters aren't paying the artist who made the original, they aren't paying the writers who created the universe we all know and love, the recasters aren't putting money in to the hands of the FLGS who gives us a place to play, the recasters aren't putting anything back in to the system.
This is why I said I would rather we had a society that supports the content creators rather than the parasites who will always be able to make things cheaper.
I'm not going as far to say "consumers fault", IMO it's a society fault. Do we want to live in a society that doesn't support the arts? While we are thriving, I would prefer to live in one that does.
That's why I don't disagree with the ideal that copyright creates, even though I may disagree with the implementation of current copyright laws.
I believe it's GW's fault for nickle and diming their consumers to the point where they've destroyed consumer loyalty and made the counterfeits as attractive as they are.
It's certainly the fault of GW if gamers no longer want to buy their wares, however I still thing counterfeits are at best the "self entitled" option as it shows you DO still want their wares you just aren't willing to pay the people who actually brought those wares before you. Compared to the (IMO better) option of just buying from other artists who you agree with more.
I suppose this depends on whether or not you believe a person or an entity is entitled to reap the rewards of their labor just because they did that labor. Or, in other words, does the creator deserve compensation solely for the act of creation?
Certainly you can make an argument that someone is entitled to the reap the fruit of their labor. I dont. If someone can make your product for less and of similiar quality then tough. It is on the companies to make their products competitive. Customers have no moral obligation to keep them afloat.
Also, while it is true that popular products will have knock offs usually they will not be as popular because of consumer loyalty, a perception of superior quality or the product is in fact superior.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I still just tend to think as a society it is beneficial to pay the money to the person who actually created the content
This coincides with the initial goal of copyright - to encourage the creation of creative works for the enrichment of society. The mechanism by which it does that is by granting an artificial monopoly on the production of those works from which the artists can derive an income.
or simply take your business to another legitimate company.
This has a direct and observable impact in free software for example, where everyone being willing and able to pirate windows means there's far less support for linux than there otherwise would be. This is much to Microsofts advantage so while they make token moves against the larger counterfeiting they really don't want the alternative which is a break from MS towards linux. You could easily make the comparison to the tabletop games industry where GW is the behemoth and by buying recasts you're keeping their game the one that's played at the expense of other games that would otherwise win out. I mention this more as a point of interest rather than relevance I think hehe.
As a western society (which I think most users on this board are from) I think we should be aiming to promote the arts by buying from the actual artists. If you don't like what the artist is producing, don't agree with the artist's price/terms, or don't like the company that is publishing/distributing the artist's works, go to a different artist.
Here I agree in goal (promoting arts) but not in mechanism (copyright laws). The current copyright laws are ridiculously broken and stifle the production of creative works. The best way we have to get change is by ignoring the law in specific instances where we know the companies abuse it to the detriment of their customers and society at large. Look at the US prohibition on alcohol and their war on drugs with marijuana - prohibition ended and marijuana is being legalised because people just didn't obey the laws, so it does work.
There are viable alternatives to supporting the arts that don't involve crippling innovation. Kickstarter and patreon are good examples of this - if people want something they "patronise" it, the way artists used to make their money.
The problem I see with the whole "civil disobedience" thing is that: a) while I agree copyright law is flawed, I think the principle of the artist maintaining some rights to their creation is a good way to go, b) at the end of the day, you aren't being disobedient to an oppressive government regime, you are being disobedient to a company that you don't like, a company which is trying to sell you entirely non-essential items for your entertainment, it's very hard to get past the "self entitled" to see the "righteous disobedience".
Copyright laws are unenforceable in the digital age and results in ridiculous laws and crippling of innovation like we have now so no I don't agree that this is a good way to go. We need a huge rethink on copyright and intellectual property. The companies (ie. disney) bought the laws so yeah, we are being disobedient to the originators of the laws. No need to drag down an otherwise good post by throwing accusations of self entitlement however.
When it comes to ethics or moral philosophy there are basically three approaches that people use to figure out what they should do or endorse.
Duty based ethics - these are rules or obligations that usually come from an outside source. Sometimes people have religiously based ones. Others have a general "how I was raised" notion of their duties. Others think about principles that define what is important to them and have duties based off of those.
Virtue based ethics - these are where the primary consideration is what a given act or actions says about you. How would you or others describe someone who does that? What does it mean about who you are?
Consequential ethics - these are concerned with actual results in the real world. The consequences and effects of actions are seen as more important than following rules or worrying about the meaning of an action to one's identity.
Most people operate with a combination of the three above combined with some pragmatic ethics that recognizes that all ethics are social and can change with the situation and times.
Here's the thing: You can justify or condemn any action with any of them. Examples:
Getting something without paying the original creator is wrong -- A duty based approach that defines what you should do.
Thrift and saving money is more important than corporate rights. -- A duty based approach that justifies buying from recasters.
Buying from recasters shows that I'm economically free. -- A virtue based approach that justifies buying from recasters.
Buying from recasters shows that I'm cheap and cut corners. -- A virtue based approach that condemsn buying from recasters
Buying from recasters will drive GW out of business. -- a consequentialist approach that could either justify or condemn recasting based on whether or not you think it's a good thing that GW gets less money from you.
The end result of the moral issue is that you are basically deciding what you value and telling a story about it. Perhaps it will be a story about what it says about you or someone else (saving money is smart! or buying only legit products shows I'm respectful of creative types). Perhaps it'll be a story about what you think your skydaddy wants (Thou shalt not steal!). Perhaps it'll be a story about desired end results (every dollar denied to GW is one step closer to forcing them to change).
Even if you are a moral realist who thinks there's an objective correct answer to the recasting question, you still find yourself in the position of telling yourself a story about how you arrive at that conclusion and what it means for you and your community and what you and your community ought to value. And when it comes down to convincing others of your opinion, you're going to need to present a compelling story about why they should agree with you.
Im going to say it plain and simple if gw is going to bleed me dry.I will not buy any of their products.But in forgechino I can get 3 riptides for the price of 1 gw riptide.GW can just go away and as always with GW products fans will keep 40k alive.I will not support their way of making profit.If i recast o bought recast from someone else and knowing it will hurt GW i will do it all the time.GW needs to get their stuff stright.how much does a WD cost nowadays?
Well the internet is my friend still, I will find them!
I am fine with knock off movies, recast dolls and recast warhammer, I don't own any recast dolls or warhammer but the option should be there I think.
Supporting the modellers by giving money to GW so they keep employing their modellers is really not what you are doing at all. While GW lives, the modellers will be employed. If they are failing as a business, the inevitable will eventually happen and the business will collapse, be it because of poor pricing or management elsewhere. If there is such a profitable lane for recasters, it's due to poor pricing. If the lack of incoming funds is enough for them to close doors, it's not because recasters stole all their profits it's because of the sales they lost due to bad judgement on their choice of price.
It's is POSSIBLE but extremely unlikely and implausible that they are priced exactly on the tipping point, where their prices are so high people are disheartened by it enough to move to recasters, but still low enough to buy anyway if the option of recasters did not exist, and balanced so that a large enough margin of their customer base have this experience (and it would have to be quite large), to be relevant to whether or not the company closes doors. This is the only situation where your choice to dump overly inflated sums of cash into the wallets of GWs unappreciative fat cats ever does anything that could classify as "supporting the artist". If the company's prices are consistently so wrong to the point that they have to close shop (which in this case is quite possible) then it's a inevitable outcome. Trying to fight the tide by being the people that still support the company out of a sense of duty to the artist, is highly unlikely to have the effect of even giving them a single extra year of salary that they would have otherwise missed out on, assuming everyone who felt the same, did the same. It would be an incredible twist of fate if this was the case and the financial balance hinged entirely upon it, but even if it did you would never know, and you could instead rest easy knowing that there is a 99% chance that the only person you "supported" with your decision to purchase legitimately instead of recasts strictly to support the artist, is the guy who actually took advantage of the artist and refused to sell his stuff for a deserving price. Which would also have the effect of securing stable employment for him under a well managed company with a focus on the longterm and not the short (the main thing relevant to an employee on a salary), as well as allowing him to share his work with more people with the appreciation of his craft.
Keeping your morals intact being the deciding decision between buying GW or buying recasts makes sense to buy from GW, if that's what you need to do to sleep easier, nobody can tell you otherwise. On the same page, you can't tell people they will feel the same (they won't). I think it's time Hivefleet accepted this, and realised he has very strong morals that the average person does not consider an immoral act (as undeniably proven by this poll).
However, if supporting the artist being the deciding factor, you should probably buy the recasts for your own sake. It's ridiculously unlikely to have an effect on the artist.
If you love the model, buy the model. If you don't want the model, there are other amazing models and lines out there. And they *can* be linked here.
I don't think I'd refuse to play against a recaster, but I'd rather they didn't recast. I love to see non-standard models, and care not one whit whether they came from GW or not, but I'd rather the entity that produced the design be the one who sells the model.
I've seen whole non-GW armies. I wish there were more options out there though. At the end of the day, if it's worth your money to have a model, pay for it. If not, find another model. Or convert. Or whatever.
GW has gotten rid of so many models in the past few years.
This.
Strictly speaking, it is copyright infringement.
Practically and realistically speaking, GW IS NOT MAKING OR SELLING THE PRODUCT ANYMORE. They might.......maybe......someday ......sell it again......... Sure, let's hold our breathe until then. The fact is I'm not stealing from them what they don't have / aren't selling , and in that case I may actually be working for them by indirectly promoting , for free, a product they have walked away from and aren't promoting.
There are quite a few OOP items which, if I could find decent recasts of them, I would certainly buy them.
Necromunda Redemptionists 1st edition for example. You won't find them even on Ebay, not for any price , and certainly not from GW.
Davor wrote: Again to the OP. What is wrong? What are you going to say when someone is using Privateer Press, or Vallejo paints instead of GW paints?
Heaven forbid if someone is not using GW paint brushes.
How about people who don't use GW glue?
When does it stop? Where does it start?
It's not analogous as paints/tools made by different companies are not rip-off's of other people's intellectual property and products.
I would play him, I would ask where he got them. I wouldn't really care, maybe look to save myself some money also. If GW don't want to be undercut they need to stop charging £15 ($25...) for a single plastic figure....
H.B.M.C. wrote: Without providing any links, 4chan's a good place to start. That place has no morals, no decency and no sense of humanity.
Ha so thats why reading it always gave me the warm feeling of belonging.
As for recasts, some Forge World prices are actualy nothing short of insane. I dont know how they calculate them but even if projected sales come into the equation, the price never drops despite the fact that (I guess) many kits exceeded the number. If they just pull the number out of ass eg because its big then well, sorry people I love your sculpts but 100 pounds + for GUO thats going to be pirated to heaven and back until all the angels of copyright choke on fresh vapors of cheap mold release agent. People love their mnis but cant afford them or even justify such money for a miniature and thats it. Its not a good justification but thats how it works. Id love to buy titans stormravens or big daemons straight from FW but to be able to justify such spendings Id have to be times richer than I am now, and Im not really that poor. Truth be told even recast of FW seem expensive at times, thats how ridiculous some of their prices are.
Also Im amazed about the number of people I meet that pirate GW with proud eye and express sense of achievement doing it heh. Its almost like pirating Windows, a natural thing to do. Quite telling about general love for GW.
Honestly with the customer loyalty and general level of care GW has shown these last years, not only would I not mind, I would PREFER someone wasent giving them any money. Don't reward bad behavior people.
Depends how many are and quality
if they are like original and are from the "expensive ones" then im ok, THEY ARE NOT MINE MODELS . so even if i dont have recast its my choice.rules matter no models. I see it same as i use ultra marines as BA in some battles because my BA arent many.
Now if he has all his modes and are awfull quality i would said that his models are problematic ect.... but i think i will play with him in the end , as its a game
welshhoppo wrote: Right, say you have a friend at your FLGS or local club and you know that he uses recasts. These are not the cheap 'I'm sure it looks like a Land Raider if you look at it from this angle and use your imagination' ones either, this stuff looks like the real deal. The kind that you would only know it is fake if he told you himself.
Would you play against this guy knowing that he is undercutting the hobby or would you not?
He's not 'undercutting the hobby'. He's reacting to GW's prices and attitude toward their customers. GW created the recast market with their decisions. Now they have to deal with it.
Ask yourself this: if GW could 'undercut' you, taking mobey from you that they shouldnt - do you think they would? Damn right they would, and if you look close enough you can see that they already do.
As for your question, idgaf what models people use, as long as they meet a realistic standard so as not to ruin immersion.
I don't think there is any way you could try and claim that you have some kind of moral high-ground by using recasts, or that GW deserves it for selling their products. Ultimately it's an unnecessary item that they want to sell for a higher price than you think is justified. In the same way that an Apple is more expensive for no real reason, or a fancy car. They don't owe you an affordable hobby and if they feel that 10 plastic space soldiers is worth £40 then that's all there is to it. You can either pay what they ask or look elsewhere. The recast market exists because people want products for cheaper than the usual price, and are willing to ignore the law / efforts of the producer in order to get them. There is no moral superiority to be found and it is not justice against an evil corporation.
For my own part, I don't use recasts because I can afford to pay the real prices, and because I don't want to give away my financial information to someone who is clearly flouting the law. But I don't begrudge other people for not holding the same viewpoint. All I want is an opponent on the other side of the table who is willing to make a game of it, regardless of how expensive his army was.
But I am not going to indulge any fantasies that they are fighting for lower prices on a board game. They wanted a particular shape of plastic, didn't think it was worth the full prie, so they took shortcuts. There is nothing more to it than that.
Mozzamanx wrote: I don't think there is any way you could try and claim that you have some kind of moral high-ground by using recasts, or that GW deserves it for selling their products. Ultimately it's an unnecessary item that they want to sell for a higher price than you think is justified. In the same way that an Apple is more expensive for no real reason, or a fancy car. They don't owe you an affordable hobby and if they feel that 10 plastic space soldiers is worth £40 then that's all there is to it. You can either pay what they ask or look elsewhere. The recast market exists because people want products for cheaper than the usual price, and are willing to ignore the law / efforts of the producer in order to get them. There is no moral superiority to be found and it is not justice against an evil corporation.
and dont forget that GW has to pay peaple to make the models and other copyright issues when recast copy do them whth 0 need for ther money more than "make" them
Mozzamanx wrote: The recast market exists because people want products for cheaper than the usual price, and are willing to ignore the law / efforts of the producer in order to get them.
No, the recast market exists because the primary retailer has allowed so much headroom in the pricing that there is sufficient space for someone to go to the trouble of making them, sell them at a substantial discount and still make a profit.
We know for a fact that GW's cost of production is ~20% of final RRP, so the "production costs" argument is a bit of a fallacy (because they include development ie sculpting as part of these costs.) The fact is, if they weren't haemorrhaging volume in the way they appear to be because of all the other mistakes they've made, and didn't have the massive cost millstone of the store network to service, they could comfortably price match, even undercut, what your typical recaster appears to charge. The fact is, if they had better PR, they wouldn't need to, as customers who now are perhaps buying recasts would, I'd argue, not only buy from GW but pay a premium (within reason) to support the company.
It wouldn't matter how many people wanted cheap products if there was no viable way to offer them on a commercial basis, the fact that there is is entirely within GW's hands.
For my own part, I don't use recasts because I can afford to pay the real prices, and because I don't want to give away my financial information to someone who is clearly flouting the law.
Most recasters that I'm aware of either sell through a third party with similar protections to eBay, or accept only PayPal, while the usual caveats would apply for buying online, the risk of having your data stolen doesn't appear to be one of them.
In fact, I recently purchased a legitimate item from one of the sites known for selling recasts. I paid, and shortly afterwards received a dispatch email with tracking.
A few days ago, I received an email from the site (not the seller) stating that they had detected suspicious activity on he sellers account, had frozen the order, and if they hadn't received sufficient info from the seller within 3 days, would be issuing a refund. Without any involvement from me whatsoever (it is still well within the delivery timeline, so my suspicions had not been raised for any reason.)
The myth that these sites are in any way shady or underhand is simply not true.
But I don't begrudge other people for not holding the same viewpoint. All I want is an opponent on the other side of the table who is willing to make a game of it, regardless of how expensive his army was.
But I am not going to indulge any fantasies that they are fighting for lower prices on a board game. They wanted a particular shape of plastic, didn't think it was worth the full prie, so they took shortcuts. There is nothing more to it than that.
Not strictly true, every pound spent on wargaming that doesn't go to GW will increase the pressure on them. I advocate the purchase from the competition, as that is almost like £2 of pressure for every £1 spent, but I understand why people may take the recast route.
There is an increasing body of evidence to demonstrate that GW management is fat, lazy, out of ideas, contemptuous of it's customers and rejoicing in it's ignorance. They have shut down almost every avenue of communication, and delight in the fact that they're not listening to their customers, therefore the only method open to a dissatisfied customer to send a message is to withhold cash they would have otherwise spent with GW. If one wishes to continue wargaming, then an alternate system would be a better choice, but it doesn't surprise me, nor do I condemn, that so,e may choose to buy GW models from a "not GW."
I'm simply saying that people need to be honest about why they are doing it. We aren't talking about Robin Hood stealing from an oppressive regime for the good of the people, we are talking about people wanting a Wraithknight for a third of the price. Games Workshop aren't evil or actively trying to hurt their fans, they are simply a badly-run company delusional about the value of their spacemen. I think people are just trying to justify their actions by pretending it is the moral thing to do, because they don't want to be the villain. GW is a model company selling overpriced plastic, and third parties are stealing their work to make a profit. If this is profitable then it highlights how absurd the prices are, but it doesn't make them morally wrong nor does it make the third parties any less parasitic or illegal. Again, nobody is owed affordable models just like they aren't owed a nice house or computer. If people could pirate a Ferrari then they would, and I guarantee they'd try justifying to themselves by saying the car shouldn't be so expensive to start with.
Maybe people get defensive and start a moral discussion when they get called 'criminals' for doing something that is not illegal?
I got my Imperial Knight at one third of the original price and the quality is amazing.
So I am not going to feel sorry about that because I would have never bought that from GW.
And even if I did, it would be through a third-party seller and the "real heroes" (aka, the independent stores) wouldn't get anything for it.
I bought it, it went through customs, I paid some tax and I build my model. Personally I don't care about GW and I'm not going to feel bad for them because they didn't get 500 euro on top of the 250 I already spent on them.
Mozzamanx wrote: I'm simply saying that people need to be honest about why they are doing it.
They most likely are, but then people who disagree with their reasons misrepresent them.
We aren't talking about Robin Hood stealing from an oppressive regime for the good of the people, we are talking about people wanting a Wraithknight for a third of the price. Games Workshop aren't evil or actively trying to hurt their fans, they are simply a badly-run company delusional about the value of their spacemen. I think people are just trying to justify their actions by pretending it is the moral thing to do, because they don't want to be the villain.
Citation needed.
Seriously though, you've just gone and done what I mentioned in response to your first line. Who are you to declare what somebody else's reasoning for buying from a recaster is? You are just assuming everyone is solely motivated by price, when my personal impression talking to some people who buy recasts is that the price is almost a bonus, and the main motivation is not giving cash to a company whose actions they dislike while being able to continue with their hobby (so not cutting their nose off to spite their face.) Either way, declaring people's stated intentions as false with absolutely no basis in fact for doing so is not a good argument.
GW is a model company selling overpriced plastic, and third parties are stealing their work to make a profit. If this is profitable then it highlights how absurd the prices are, but it doesn't make them morally wrong nor does it make the third parties any less parasitic or illegal. Again, nobody is owed affordable models just like they aren't owed a nice house or computer. If people could pirate a Ferrari then they would, and I guarantee they'd try justifying to themselves by saying the car shouldn't be so expensive to start with.
Copyright and IP infringement is not theft, theft is criminal, infringement is not, let's get that straight, as a lot of people use a lot of emotive words to try and make their case, not necessarily accusing you, but it is like anyone criticising being labelled a "hater," use of emotive language muddies the debate.
People do pirate Ferraris
The car in the image is actually a Toyota MR2.
The difference is, of course, that this car would never compare favourably with the real thing, one could immediately tell where the costs had been cut, where things had been botched and improvised and once you got it moving, you'd be able to tell, perhaps even if you'd never driven the real thing.
Unfortunately for GW, it appears that many of their imitators don't suffer the same in such comparisons.
While I do not approve the recasts, I could probably still play, as I'm too polite to decline; might affect my enthusiasm to arrange a a game with them in the future though.
What I find most problematic in this thread, are the absurd ways the people try to justify the piratism. Sure, most of us have pirated one thing or another in our lives; I don't think it is right, but it is not some huge sin either, and it is perfectly understandable that it happens. However, trying to paint this as some Robin-Hood-style activism is just pathetic and frankly, somewhat disgusting. You pirated an unnecessary luxury product because you were too cheap to pay for the real thing, and that's it.
What exactly are you saying? The thing that you say we all pirated at one stage of our lives was a necessity and we did what we had to to survive? Not seeing the difference inside the distinction your post is attempting
SHUPPET wrote: What exactly are you saying? The thing that you say we all pirated at one stage of our lives was a necessity and we did what we had to to survive?
Survive? Who ever needed to pirate anything to survive? Pretty much none of the things people pirate are necessities, they're entertainment and luxury products.
Not seeing the difference inside the distinction your post is attempting
Most of us have been cheap and selfish in some point of our lives, it is human, not OK, definitely not laudable, but no one is perfect. My point was that trying to paint your selfish behaviour as some sort of heroic activism is just sad.
There's nothing heroic about it IMO and I haven't seen many people claiming they are doing gods work or are on a piracy crusade to make the world a better place. It would seem the point most are using is that they want to play their hobby but don't want to support the business behind it, whether that's morally dishonest doesn't seem at all relevant to anything here, if the sentiment that GW doesn't deserve money is a common one, then people are not going to support their outlandish prices, simple as that, so when they find a way participate in their same hobby outside of GWs monopoly then that's what they will do, morally correct or not. I've seen very little posts of people claiming to be some sort of hero for doing it, more so just statements that it doesn't affect them morally and if GW expects such sums of money they should earn it.
I personally feel like every dollar not given to GW is an achievement, maybe it's out of spite for the company but i personally cannot wait till the day it collapses and they stop making the game worse with lackluster releases and increasingly poorly written rules. Maybe the choice to support piracy against GW makes my actions morally unsound, all I know is that I'm the guy with the 6 discshelves of physical music releases who constantly tells people to support their favourite artists. I'm unwilling to support poor releases with my dollar. I guess the counter argument "well then you should sit them out and not play" but at this stage it's like nah, for the sake of my prior investment and being able to continue to use it, I need parts of the newer releases to do so, and without being willing to actually put my dollar to it to GW, well man will find a way. I'm fine with you thinking it makes me greedy, I'm neither that nor heroic, you just fail to understand our perspective. I've never once bought from a recaster because I'm uneasy about the quality, materials and guarantees of such suppliers - thus all my new model needs are conversions and kitbashes or third party miniatures and I often end up spending the same amount or more to avoid buying from GW, however I fully support anyone's decision to buy recasts if the standard suits them. GW as a business is destroying the game I love from a rules standpoint while raising prices for the detriment of product and milking customers for every cent from a business perspective, and as such I refuse to put my dollar to their name and am eagerly awaiting the day they crumble.
You can play who you want its a game - what's much more damaging is this insane attitude towards GW by part of the community acting like zealots for no reason...
A lot of the smaller company's exist purely because there are bigger ones that open up markets for people that the smaller company could never afford to support.
when GW dies a hell of a lot of other companies and one man bands go with it. GW has expensive prices but they are far from insane having worked in high end retail for many a decade 2/3rds margins is very common. its dropping nowadays to 1/3 margin but still on luxury or niche products 2/3rds is still very common. The miniature companies everyone lauds as so much cheaper than GW don't actively work internationally like GW they don't have shops that they do nor do they branch into so many other business lines they don't produce magazines weekly or product at a speed or quality of plastic. There are some great miniatures companies out there but there are also some really quite shoddy ones which produce models I still love but the materials and the casts suck that's just the level of business they are at, it doesn't stop me buying there stuff nor does it stop me buying GW because they happen to be having 1/4 to 1/2 again more expensive models or a lot of the time the same cost, not that a lot of people except it. How many of the complainers have no issue buying premium Coca-Cola or cigarettes, beers from a pub for like £3 a pint or a pizza from the take out for £10-£15 or more are they worth it?! Do you all give a F about star bucks and mc Donald's or massive pharmaceutical companies? nope! but to hell with the evil that is GW!!!
Recasting is totally not the fault of high priced first hand producers like GW more to the case that nocking off expensive items is most profitable as it draws a larger audience, it is the fault of the pirates and the community that supports it.
So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.
Ooh, wow. I just have to respond to this!
"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche." -Games Workshop 1) So please, don't complain that they have such a tiny market when that is 100% their own fault.
2) I don't buy recasts because I want to save a little. If the difference was 'a little' I would buy from Games Workshop. We're talking about a 60% discount!
3) They are not thieves. You might not like it, you might even hate it and think it's immoral. But I am not breaking any law from my country and neither is my recaster breaking a law in his country.
And the cause of all of this? GW being poorly run.
Crimson wrote: While I do not approve the recasts, I could probably still play, as I'm too polite to decline; might affect my enthusiasm to arrange a a game with them in the future though.
What I find most problematic in this thread, are the absurd ways the people try to justify the piratism. Sure, most of us have pirated one thing or another in our lives; I don't think it is right, but it is not some huge sin either, and it is perfectly understandable that it happens. However, trying to paint this as some Robin-Hood-style activism is just pathetic and frankly, somewhat disgusting. You pirated an unnecessary luxury product because you were too cheap to pay for the real thing, and that's it.
Yet again, somebody presumes to ascribe reasons other than stated to someone else's actions from atop their high horse with absolutely no evidence to support their reasoning.
Careful you don't hurt yourself climbing down from there, sport.
Yet again, somebody presumes to ascribe reasons other than stated to someone else's actions from atop their high horse with absolutely no evidence to support their reasoning.
Careful you don't hurt yourself climbing down from there, sport.
My horse is quite comfortable height, thank you.
There were number of people in this thread who were justifying the piratism by saying that it is OK because GW is such a horrible company and thought is was a way to fight corporate tyranny or something like that. It's just such bull. If GW was a sole provider of essential medicine, then pirating their products because their prices are too high would be justified, even laudable. They sell expensive toy soldiers for feths sake. If you're too cheap to buy their products and rather pirate them, just say so. Trying to justify it is pathetic.
No, there are a number of people in this thread explaining the reasons why they, personally, buy recasts or understand those who choose to. You have then declared all those reasons to be redundant and invalid, because you say so.
You are not entitled to call other people's motivations false just because you don't agree.
I'd reply to all this but it's already been addressed in the thread repeatedly. I'll just state that you're basically wrong on all counts.
I see how you did that with your rude clipping of quoted text, I bow down to you. Now you can feel better about your self huh?!
Kangodo wrote:
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.
Ooh, wow. I just have to respond to this!
"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche." -Games Workshop 1) So please, don't complain that they have such a tiny market when that is 100% their own fault.
2) I don't buy recasts because I want to save a little. If the difference was 'a little' I would buy from Games Workshop. We're talking about a 60% discount!
3) They are not thieves. You might not like it, you might even hate it and think it's immoral. But I am not breaking any law from my country and neither is my recaster breaking a law in his country.
And the cause of all of this? GW being poorly run.
Um how does them knowing it's a niche change anything? Also how are recasters (who sell) not thieves? If you made a product like hmm say a movie or computer sw and I sold copies am I not stealing your ip? I don't care if china has no laws against this. A obvious crime a crime. This thread is full of people trying to justify stuff to them selves enjoy.
When it comes down to it, my policy with models/rules/counts-as/anything game related is 'if you're a decent guy, then anything goes. If you're a git, feth off'.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: Um how does them knowing it's a niche change anything? Also how are recasters (who sell) not thieves? If you made a product like hmm say a movie or computer sw and I sold copies am I not stealing your ip? I don't care if china has no laws against this. A obvious crime a crime. This thread is full of people trying to justify stuff to them selves enjoy.
Because it's not a niche, it could be quite a big market if they actually knew how to get into that market.
But no, they simply refuse to do any market research because "people who want something else can feth off" seems to be their slogan.
"I don't care if a country has no laws against it!"
Well, I do care about that! As long as no laws are broken, everything is fine.
And if you disagree with that.. Well.. That sounds like you are criticising the Chinese government, I'm sure that's a crime over there.
Do you really think that calling people online 'criminals' is going to help you any bit in your crusade against recasting?
Would I play someone if I knew they were using recasts? Yes, it their decision and I cannot blame them for it. Ten years ago the hobby was expensive and its even more so today. Personally I own a single recast, I didn't buy it to hurt GW, I bought it because I found the price reasonable for what I was getting. Do I feel guilty or proud? No. Simply payed what I wanted for what I wanted.
Zognob Gorgoff wrote: So what do we have in the end?!
GW not evil just poorly run and unsure of its self always testing the water hoping such a large company can last in such a tiny market.
People buying recasts just wanna save a little but not thinking about the long term of there actions and should try and mix it up a bit and not just buy from the thieves.
Recasters are thieves they aren't robin hood they want money they arnt going to set up a legitimate business.
Ooh, wow. I just have to respond to this!
"Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle-class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things are otiose in a niche." -Games Workshop 1) So please, don't complain that they have such a tiny market when that is 100% their own fault.
2) I don't buy recasts because I want to save a little. If the difference was 'a little' I would buy from Games Workshop. We're talking about a 60% discount!
3) They are not thieves. You might not like it, you might even hate it and think it's immoral. But I am not breaking any law from my country and neither is my recaster breaking a law in his country.
And the cause of all of this? GW being poorly run.
Um how does them knowing it's a niche change anything? Also how are recasters (who sell) not thieves? If you made a product like hmm say a movie or computer sw and I sold copies am I not stealing your ip? I don't care if china has no laws against this. A obvious crime a crime. This thread is full of people trying to justify stuff to them selves enjoy.
Recasters are not thieves because IP infringement is not theft. If someone buys a recast Thunderhawk from China, one doesn't mystically disappear from the shelves in the Forge World stock cupboard in Nottingham. Theft is kind of contingent on someone taking property they don't own from someone else, recasting is not this. Theft is a criminal offence, IP infringement is a civil one.
People who call recasters thieves are doing so because it is a loaded, emotive term that they feel somehow reinforces their point. That they are committing an act that is against the law in most Western legal systems is beyond debate, but to call them thieves is objectively untrue.
welshhoppo wrote: Right, say you have a friend at your FLGS or local club and you know that he uses recasts. These are not the cheap 'I'm sure it looks like a Land Raider if you look at it from this angle and use your imagination' ones either, this stuff looks like the real deal. The kind that you would only know it is fake if he told you himself.
Would you play against this guy knowing that he is undercutting the hobby or would you not?
He's not technically undercutting the "hobby", just Games Workshop.
And the reality is that if these recasts have as much traction as they do, it's a sign that Games Workshop has priced themselves out of the market for a fair number of customers. That, combined with Finecast and Forgeworld's poor reputation for quality, I am not at all surprised that people will opt for lower priced alternatives.
I inadvertently purchased a knock-off FW bit off EBay before I realized how prevalent the market was for them. I won't lie, the quality was on par with what I'd have demanded.
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I won't lie, that's actually pretty impressive. I mean, it's a huge waste of money, and it's not going to fool anyone other than some dumb drunk college girl, but hey, it's a massive improvement on the MR2, lol.
Selling counterfeit products is a criminal offence in Canada and the United States and I think it is considered a criminal offence in UK , I remember that in 2009 I think the London Police did a huge anti counterfeit sweeps in some of the really popular markets in the city.
That is true.
But we're talking about buying counterfeit products from overseas.
As long as I am not selling them or buying a gigantic bulk the law has no problem with it.
I usually don't even have to pay additional taxes on it, which I have to do if I am import shirts from threadless.com
Alpha 1 wrote: Selling counterfeit products is a criminal offence in Canada and the United States and I think it is considered a criminal offence in UK , I remember that in 2009 I think the London Police did a huge anti counterfeit sweeps in some of the really popular markets in the city.
Recasts are not counterfeits unless they explicitly try to pass themselves off as legitimate. Counterfeiting is different from plain infringement in that it includes the intent to defraud. Recasts are produced with different materials to different quality standards with different packaging at greatly different prices. The recasters I know also explicitly state what they are during transactions.
Yonan counterfeit is an unauthorized copy and even if the recast models did not contain the GW logo or other trademarks I can guarantee that GW has all of their designs trademarked meaning if you recast a Space Marine and call it a replica or even said it is not an official product it is still considered counterfeit because you have copied a very specific design that is owned by GW. Now owning said counterfeit even making them is not illegal it becomes illegal when you start to sell and distribute them.
Kangodo: You are right buying counterfeit is not illegal but there are other reasons why I am against buying these products and you can find them here when I made my first post
In criminal law. To forge; to copy or imitate, without authority or right, and with a view to deceive or defraud, by passing the copy or tiling forged for that which is original or genuine. Most commonly applied to the fraudulent and criminal imitation of money.
Law Dictionary: What is COUNTERFEIT? definition of COUNTERFEIT (Black's Law Dictionary)
Some countries do have weird laws about reproducing stuff you don't own the IP for so it's perfectly possible the recasts areproduced and sold from a place where it's legal to do so and sent toward the rest of the world where owning said recasts is also legal, making the whole process 100% legal too.
Probably my favorite thing is how the propaganda war for Intellectual Property has been lost as those who were pre-teens in the time of Napster have reached adulthood. People keep trying the same tired slogans the MPAA and RIAA came up with 10+ years ago and they're just sounding hollow.
Azrael13, I thought your point about asserting what other people's motivations are being untenable was fantastic. It's very strange to hear people go "My reason is X" and immediately have someone say "The reason you do it is Y". And it's always done as part of trotting out an old propaganda talking point from a lobby group.
Yonan's point about counterfeiting involving the intent to defraud is also excellent. Furthermore this whole thread is based on the situation that you know that the models across the table are recast. There's not even an attempt to deceive on the other player's part.
I also find the transfer of material argument to be fairly persuasive. That the recast actually constitutes a new work (albeit a derivative one) because of it's change into a different material. I know when Finecast came out there was a big upsurge in recasters offering Finecast models in metal and resin. They even took the time to fill in all the micro bubbles and repair the miscasts before they made their moulds. So you ended up with a transfer to a different medium and a better quality product.
I also find the transfer of material argument to be fairly persuasive. That the recast actually constitutes a new work (albeit a derivative one) because of it's change into a different material. I know when Finecast came out there was a big upsurge in recasters offering Finecast models in metal and resin. They even took the time to fill in all the micro bubbles and repair the miscasts before they made their moulds. So you ended up with a transfer to a different medium and a better quality product.
Fairly, as in not at all.
I'm with many others here in that I don't have a problem playing a nice guy fielding recasts. But some of the attempts at claiming the moral high ground are pretty dubious, like this "transfer of material" argument. There is no way on our little green earth that copying an item but using a slightly different medium is anything but copying. I'll leave the other assertions as they've been done to death.
GW has destroyed any good will that I ever had for them. I might be a little put off that said friend isn't supporting a gaming store (local or otherwise) by using recasts, but I could not care less about the financial implications for Games Workshop.
Interesting to hear so much justification for stealing. That is absolutely what recasts are. Regardless of the impact to GW or your hatred of them or their prices, it is unethical.
I don't expect that this will change any of your opinions, but deep down you know that it isn't right.
If he is not selling them for profit, sure I would play with him. This is kind of a similar discussion to playing against people with scratch-built models. They are both not supporting the company and are not having to buy GW or FW products. As long as they don't look like utter junk, I'd play against someone with recasts. If they throw in custom parts and sculpts into the recast, and they look great, I'd definitely play against them.
cvtuttle wrote: Interesting to hear so much justification for stealing. That is absolutely what recasts are. Regardless of the impact to GW or your hatred of them or their prices, it is unethical.
Something can be legal and unethical, or the reverse even. However, the buying and selling of recast models is categorically NOT stealing, because theft involves the loss of property by the victim. It doesn't matter how often you, or other posters, state it as a fact, you will be wrong. Feel free to argue it is illegal, or that it is infringing GW's IP, but stop calling it stealing, it isn't and it is just a cheap trick using emotive language to try and reinforce your argument.
I don't expect that this will change any of your opinions, but deep down you know that it isn't right.
Again, right or wrong and legal and illegal are not necessarily allied. But, let's face it, in the grand scheme of things, it is a small wrong.
1) I won't play with someone using recasts of something they could have bought at the store I play at if they're a regular. That's just being a cheap donkey-cave absuing someone else's generosity (I also make snide remarks to one local TFG who buys everything on Ebay to save himself about 5%, so that's not strictly recast related)
2) I won't play against recasts of the product of smaller, independent companies. I'm a big fan of protecting the little guys so they can find their niche, so non-GW recasts are a no-go for me.
Additionally, while I'll play against someone using recasts, if their recasts of stuff which is reasonably priced and they're just being cheap, I'll let them know that. Forgeworld is the only thing I've seen recasts of, aside from a single Ironclad dreadnought one guy got in a big used lot, and recast superheavies and other stuff which is absolutely insanely priced doesn't bother me in the least, but I wouldn't condone a wholly recast army or someone recasting the few reasonably priced things, like the Terminators FW makes being only marginally more expensive than GW's while being infinitely better. I love Forgeworld's work, I want to see their artists rewarded and that branch of GW not only do well, but out-perform core GW so that GW might see some of the stuff FW does right, like communication, marketing and not fluff-raping things and otherwise being dicks, but I totally recognize their pricing structure is even more out of whack than GW, and there are limits to my support.
1) I won't play with someone using recasts of something they could have bought at the store I play at if they're a regular. That's just being a cheap donkey-cave absuing someone else's generosity (I also make snide remarks to one local TFG who buys everything on Ebay to save himself about 5%, so that's not strictly recast related)
A distinction without a difference, whether the models are recast or not is redundant to your point, and the why and wherefores of "pay where you play" aren't pertinent to the topic and age been heavily debated in other threads (although I personally agree, if for no other reason than if your gaming venue doesn't have an income, it will close and you may have nowhere else to play - it's a purely selfish personal reason with no moral element.)
2) I won't play against recasts of the product of smaller, independent companies. I'm a big fan of protecting the little guys so they can find their niche, so non-GW recasts are a no-go for me.
While I empathise with the sentiment, if we are debating the morality of recasting, whose models they are is moot.
Additionally, while I'll play against someone using recasts, if their recasts of stuff which is reasonably priced and they're just being cheap, I'll let them know that. Forgeworld is the only thing I've seen recasts of, aside from a single Ironclad dreadnought one guy got in a big used lot, and recast superheavies and other stuff which is absolutely insanely priced doesn't bother me in the least, but I wouldn't condone a wholly recast army or someone recasting the few reasonably priced things, like the Terminators FW makes being only marginally more expensive than GW's while being infinitely better. I love Forgeworld's work, I want to see their artists rewarded and that branch of GW not only do well, but out-perform core GW so that GW might see some of the stuff FW does right, like communication, marketing and not fluff-raping things and otherwise being dicks, but I totally recognize their pricing structure is even more out of whack than GW, and there are limits to my support.
It isn't really your call what other people are allowed to consider reasonably priced or not. That you think that over £30 for 5 models is in any sense "reasonable" suggests you're perhaps a trifle conditioned by GW's pricing. In my opinion. You see? I think some things you think are reasonably priced are in fact quite expensive for what they represent. That they are comparatively, and arguably, better value than an over priced alternative makes them no less overpriced.
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