Adrik wrote: The tau have to have bases. They have to store ammunition, they have to have a place to treat their wounded, they have to have places to fix damage vehicles, places for their soldiers to eat and sleep, and places to refuel.
You're right, they do. Those bases are starships in orbit and/or bases on an entirely different continent, thousands of miles from any fighting. In fact, given Tau strategic mobility, those bases might be just as easy to pack up and move by Manta/Orca as the rest of the Tau army.
An army that doesn't have a FOB, doesn't have a main base, doesn't have supply depots, doesn't have hospitals, and doesn't have a line of battle isn't an army.
Why do you insist on applying real-world strategic rules to an army that does not care about real-world limits on mobility? In the real world we have FOBs, supply depots, etc, because we don't have the equivalent of the Manta. The Tau don't have the same need for fixed bases and lines because a supply base thousands of miles from the fighting is only slightly less convenient than one right next door.
They beat the Avenging Sons because they realized that super numbers and constant pressure was needed.
Slight nitpick: they beat the Avenging Sons because they won the battle before a single shot was fired. The target of the attack was already elsewhere, and the best-case outcome for the marines was being able to escape without taking too many losses.
I own a Forge World Warlord Titan. The Warlord Titan has a rule called World Burner which allows it to attack and destroy terrain which includes Battlefield debris.
No it doesn't. It lets you place the template over terrain (for example, to kill an invisible unit hiding in the terrain), it doesn't give you any rules to destroy terrain that you can't already destroy with normal weapons. Not that this matters, since game mechanics are not fluff.
Ok, regarding Tau tactics.
First off, there is quite a number of historical examples where retreating was or came to be an integral part of victory. Napoleon's 1812 Russian campaign and Rommel's march to Egypt are 2 such examples.
Second, even if those tactics do not work at bigger then squad levels, where in the campaign we see anything at more then squad levels of action? To be more precise, those tactics are described as used against small Marine contingents that were roaming without immediate support (although there were instances where air power was called in).
Another thing, concerning suspension of disbelief: taking "extensively augmented humans can only feel cold detached curiosity" or anything like this as an axiom is illogical opinion. Sufficiently advanced machine can experience any emotion needed, and probably a hundred more unaccessible to puny fleshy brain. Same goes to an augmented brain.
Also, for any body who own Mont'ka, do you mind spoiling it and telling me who wins? I've pre ordered the book but I can't handle the anticipation! Thanks in advance.
Yea, I could, though my German's rusty these days. Which heirloom? Or do you mean all of it? The part in bold font roughly translates to this:
Every one of the following described items is both a valuable relic from the history of Cadia as well as an artifact of the war, that for several years was awarded to those who were worthy enough to carry them into battle. None of the following items can appear more than once in an army.
I can translate the rest tomorrow, it's fun but off-topic
Celeritas ............... 10 points
Spoiler:
Celeritas was a gift from the Chapter Master Admeus of the Ultramarines to Castellan Grift, after the 57th Cadian supported the Ultramarines during the Siege of Ygdraverre. The perfectly balanced chainsword was made by Talassarian craftsmen and is among the best weapons of its kind in the whole Imperium. Cadian officers have already struck down Chaos Space Marines and Exarchs with this wondrous chainsword in hand, without even getting a scratch.
Deadly Riposite: When a model is fighting in a challenge and is carrying Celeritas, it has an armour save of 4+. For every successful save the model rolls in a challenge, it can immediately carry out an attack with Celeritas that automatically hits and has the special rule armour piercing. The attacks are carried out even if the model is killed through unsuccessful saving rolls.
The Iron Left ........ 25 Points
Spoiler:
This bionic limb was originally an artificial arm made for the heroic Cadian lieutenant and renowned fistfigher Grigor "Bomber" Hass. Part of this unique device is also an energy (power) sword with a nerve interface, that can be directly connected with the fist. Through its hydraulics, the limb possesses enormous power, and so every thrust of the sword and every brutal left hook is strong enough, to split even a heavily armoured Space Marine in two halves.
Reach: -
S: 2+
DS: 3
Type: Melee
The Standard of the Fallen 113th .................. 30 points
Spoiler:
During the terrible time of the 12th Black Crusade, the 113th Cadian Infantry regiment stood by the defence of the Forgeworld Gamanede against an overwhelming foe. Despite the curse that supposedly weighed on the regiment, it fought bravely and with honour. It held out twelve days against a flood of traitors and only fell on the thirteenth. The regimental standard was retrieved and has since been a proud symbol of Cadian invincibility even in the face of overwhelming odds.
A veteran of your army that can carry a regimental standard can carry the standard of the Fallen 113th instead. This standard has the same rules as a regimental standard. At the beginning of your movement phase, you are allowed to declare that your carrier plants the standard and thinks of fighting to the last. The carrier's unit is not allowed to move, run, or attack for the rest of the game, but the unit and all allied Cadian units within 18 inches become fearless.
Kabe's Herald .............. 20 Points
Spoiler:
Knight Commander Kabe's sharp command tone resounded with absolute authority out of the Vox casters of his tank crew and ensured time and time again, that they triumphed over their enemy. The Knight Commander eventually lost his life when a renegade Warhound Titan stomped on his Leman Russ. His upgraded high-performance Vox caster however, was recovered from the rubble. In battle, one can still hear the voice of the old Knight Commander amid the Vox static. It sends orders, that support his still living descendants, and contributes to the tanks of Cadia achieving victory once more.
A tank commander of your army can be equipped with Kabe's Herald. When a model equipped with Kabe's Herald, uses its special rule Tank Commands, you are allowed to freely select further Leman Russ squadrons within 12 inches. The chosen squadrons are also affected by the Tank Command, as if they were part of the unit of the Tank Commander. If the Tank Commander issues the order "Gunners, Fire on Sight!," every other squadron that is also affected gets for the duration of the phase, the special rule Split fire.
Volkov's Walking Stick ........ 10 points
Spoiler:
Despite the shock field generators in its head, the greatest value of the walking stick lies therein, that it strengthens the morale of the troops. Every Cadian knows the story of Castellan Volkov, who during the evacuation of Dortengrav stood alone before the monstrous Ork-Warboss Wirb'lkaua ("Spine Chewer" ) - with nothing but a walking stick. Volkov took the classic combat stance and fought a few long and desperate minutes against the giant Greenskin, while the last refugees were hastedly brought to safety. Although the death of Castellan through the hand of his raging foe was unavoidable, his heroic act became of a legend of Cadia. Every officer who is deemed worthy enough to carry the walking stick, can be assured of the respect and obedience of all near him.
Only the Company Commander. When a model with Volkov's Walking Stick issues an order to a unit within 6 inches, the morale test only fails when a double six is rolled.
Range: -
S: carrier
DS: 4
Type: Melee, Shocking
Wrath of Cadia ............... 5 points
Spoiler:
Although this noteworthy firearm resembles an excellently worked/crafted Laspistol, it actually contains arcane technological secrets, through which its beam more closely resembles a miniature lance. During its time the weapon could strike down truly monstrous foes, including a mighty Biotitan of the Tyranids.
Penetrating:
A weapon with this special rule always wounds with 4+. When rolling armour saves against a weapon with this special rule, every roll that is 3 or less misrolls automatically, even when the armour save of the target is 3+ or better.
Okay, I've fully translated the whole thing now. Enjoy!
Yea, I could, though my German's rusty these days. Which heirloom? Or do you mean all of it? The part in bold font roughly translates to this:
Every one of the following described items is both a valuable relic from the history of Cadia as well as an artifact of the war, that for several years was awarded to those who were worthy to carry it into battle. None of the following items can appear more than once in an army.
Yes please! If you don't mind. Or if anything, I'm most interested in the war gear which have stats to them. There's seems to be a Las pistol on there worth 5 points with a new usr it seems. If you can, translate as much as you can, but you don't have to, I'm mostly interested in the war gear items. Specifically the Las pistol. Thanks!!!
123ply wrote: Yes please! If you don't mind. Or if anything, I'm most interested in the war gear which have stats to them. There's seems to be a Las pistol on there worth 5 points with a new usr it seems. If you can, translate as much as you can, but you don't have to, I'm mostly interested in the war gear items. Specifically the Las pistol. Thanks!!!
Okay, you got it
I've updated my last post with the Laspistol. I'll add the rest when I can so check back later. Keep in mind this is mostly a literal translation with some changes in sentence structure (otherwise it won't make sense in English).
I have read some...apparent leaks concerning Mont'ka. I am unwilling to commit to any as super-solid but...I need to vent over one of them so I'll put it under a spoiler with a proviso that I am not confident these leaks are 100%.
Spoiler:
It seems Aun'va does die. It appears Farsight saves Shadowsun from a Vindicare. There is some really weird thing at the end where the Imperium uses a Warp-Interdiction Missile on the Tau. Shadowsun apparently blows off Ko'sarro's leg but he survives. Then...although no doubt to most others a tiny thing, something I must just vent about; only one member of the Eight dies and it is Torchstar. Killed by Shrike. Now I don't mind Shrike getting a kill, even one of the Eight, but...but why the only other female of importance in the entire Tau Empire? Shrike could have killed Bravestorm or Oblotai or O'vesa. The number of females in the fluff who are actually competent fighters just continually shrinks with moves like these. Ugh. It's just a personal disappointment to me. The Tau and Dark Eldar were some of the only factions to in recent fluff have their female combatants be written about and actually documented. I would have enjoyed seeing more of that. The Tau have a ton of males already, the entire Eight all being male barring Torchstar I always felt was a little unnecessary since its been made clear Tau females are common in the higher ranks with both Shadowsun, her sisters, Farsight's original commander and such, whereas Torchstar was an up and coming new female with an incredibly your spoor in the fluff. I really wish that it didn't feel like female characters are getting culled from he fighting. Makes me concerned about Shadowsun, Jain Zar, Celestine and Lelith as the only badass females left. Anyway as I said none of this is for certain. I hope the thing about Torchstar is incorrect.
Survivor19 wrote:Ok, regarding Tau tactics.
First off, there is quite a number of historical examples where retreating was or came to be an integral part of victory. Napoleon's 1812 Russian campaign and Rommel's march to Egypt are 2 such examples.
Second, even if those tactics do not work at bigger then squad levels, where in the campaign we see anything at more then squad levels of action? To be more precise, those tactics are described as used against small Marine contingents that were roaming without immediate support (although there were instances where air power was called in).
Another thing, concerning suspension of disbelief: taking "extensively augmented humans can only feel cold detached curiosity" or anything like this as an axiom is illogical opinion. Sufficiently advanced machine can experience any emotion needed, and probably a hundred more unaccessible to puny fleshy brain. Same goes to an augmented brain.
The issue isn't that machines can't feel emotions, it's that the book directly stated that the Archmagos's neural pathways had been modified to the point that he can no longer feel love, his brain has had so many neural implants that he literally doesn't have the chemicals that cause fear, and a host of other neural changes to the point where he has had most of his emotions basically just... removed. Then he turns around and still feels emotions that he has literally laughed at other Tech-Priests for feeling, even after he has had his brain surgically altered to the point that this is impossible.
Anemone wrote: I have read some...apparent leaks concerning Mont'ka. I am unwilling to commit to any as super-solid but...I need to vent over one of them so I'll put it under a spoiler with a proviso that I am not confident these leaks are 100%.
Spoiler:
It seems Aun'va does die. It appears Farsight saves Shadowsun from a Vindicare. There is some really weird thing at the end where the Imperium uses a Warp-Interdiction Missile on the Tau. Shadowsun apparently blows off Ko'sarro's leg but he survives. Then...although no doubt to most others a tiny thing, something I must just vent about; only one member of the Eight dies and it is Torchstar. Killed by Shrike. Now I don't mind Shrike getting a kill, even one of the Eight, but...but why the only other female of importance in the entire Tau Empire? Shrike could have killed Bravestorm or Oblotai or O'vesa. The number of females in the fluff who are actually competent fighters just continually shrinks with moves like these. Ugh. It's just a personal disappointment to me. The Tau and Dark Eldar were some of the only factions to in recent fluff have their female combatants be written about and actually documented. I would have enjoyed seeing more of that. The Tau have a ton of males already, the entire Eight all being male barring Torchstar I always felt was a little unnecessary since its been made clear Tau females are common in the higher ranks with both Shadowsun, her sisters, Farsight's original commander and such, whereas Torchstar was an up and coming new female with an incredibly your spoor in the fluff. I really wish that it didn't feel like female characters are getting culled from he fighting. Makes me concerned about Shadowsun, Jain Zar, Celestine and Lelith as the only badass females left. Anyway as I said none of this is for certain. I hope the thing about Torchstar is incorrect.
I kinda want to make a new Warzone Damocles: Discussion thread. in the OP do a summary of the basics.
I really hope going forward the new Lore and units for the TAU extend to there allies, Kroot/vespid getting suits there own specialized suits, and the other races in the TAU. To show that the TAU aren't just strong through there innovation, but through the diversity of their alliances.
Anemone wrote: I have read some...apparent leaks concerning Mont'ka. I am unwilling to commit to any as super-solid but...I need to vent over one of them so I'll put it under a spoiler with a proviso that I am not confident these leaks are 100%.
Spoiler:
It seems Aun'va does die. It appears Farsight saves Shadowsun from a Vindicare. There is some really weird thing at the end where the Imperium uses a Warp-Interdiction Missile on the Tau. Shadowsun apparently blows off Ko'sarro's leg but he survives. Then...although no doubt to most others a tiny thing, something I must just vent about; only one member of the Eight dies and it is Torchstar. Killed by Shrike. Now I don't mind Shrike getting a kill, even one of the Eight, but...but why the only other female of importance in the entire Tau Empire? Shrike could have killed Bravestorm or Oblotai or O'vesa. The number of females in the fluff who are actually competent fighters just continually shrinks with moves like these. Ugh. It's just a personal disappointment to me. The Tau and Dark Eldar were some of the only factions to in recent fluff have their female combatants be written about and actually documented. I would have enjoyed seeing more of that. The Tau have a ton of males already, the entire Eight all being male barring Torchstar I always felt was a little unnecessary since its been made clear Tau females are common in the higher ranks with both Shadowsun, her sisters, Farsight's original commander and such, whereas Torchstar was an up and coming new female with an incredibly your spoor in the fluff. I really wish that it didn't feel like female characters are getting culled from he fighting. Makes me concerned about Shadowsun, Jain Zar, Celestine and Lelith as the only badass females left. Anyway as I said none of this is for certain. I hope the thing about Torchstar is incorrect.
I kinda want to make a new Warzone Damocles: Discussion thread. in the OP do a summary of the basics.
I really hope going forward the new Lore and units for the TAU extend to there allies, Kroot/vespid getting suits there own specialized suits, and the other races in the TAU. To show that the TAU aren't just strong through there innovation, but through the diversity of their alliances.
It would be awesome if the Tau got models for more of their allies. Make them into a very diverse force, with Nicassar fullfilling the role of Psykers (as they do in the Fluff), while the Galg, Demiurg, and the rest play their own roles. It would definitely make the Tau a more interesting army.
Anemone wrote:
I have read some...apparent leaks concerning Mont'ka. I am unwilling to commit to any as super-solid but...I need to vent over one of them so I'll put it under a spoiler with a proviso that I am not confident these leaks are 100%.
Of course that's the one who dies. Character death only has meaning if the dead character is either loved or "vulnerable"... and none of the Eight are that well detailed.
Yea, I could, though my German's rusty these days. Which heirloom? Or do you mean all of it? The part in bold font roughly translates to this:
Every one of the following described items is both a valuable relic from the history of Cadia as well as an artifact of the war, that for several years was awarded to those who were worthy to carry it into battle. None of the following items can appear more than once in an army.
Celeritas:
Spoiler:
Celeritas was a gift from the Chapter Master Admeus of the Ultramarines to Castellan Grift, after the 57. Cadia supported the Ultramarines during the Siege of Ygdraverre. The perfectly balanced chainsword was made by talassarian craftsmen and is among the best weapons of its kind in the whole Imperium. Cadian officers have already struck down Chaos Space Marines and Exarchs with this wondrous chainsword in hand, without even getting a scratch.
(entsetzt means horrified, didn't make sense in that context so I changed it to "supported." Could be came to the aid of, no idea)
I can translate the rest tomorrow, it's fun but off-topic
Wrath of Cadia:
Spoiler:
Although this noteworthy firearm resembles an excellently worked/crafted Laspistol, it actually contains arcane technological secrets, through which its beam more closely resembles a miniature lance. During its time the weapon could strike down truly monstrous foes, including a mighty Biotitan of the Tyranids.
A weapon with this special rule always wounds with 4+. When rolling armour saves against a weapon with this special rule, every roll that is 3 or less misrolls automatically, even when the armour save of the target is 3+ or better.
Wow, that's awesome.. I'll probably be switching my CCC'S plasma pistol to the Wrath of Cadia. Thanks alot for that translation!
Also, are there any relics that are basically buffed up power maul? My Warlord uses one and it'd be nice to get one that has some extra benefits. But once again, thank you TONS for your translations so far!
I agree that more representation of the Tau's allies would be wonderful. Its been a pity to me that they've been virtually forgotten by the mechanics of the game and the Nicassar, Demiurg and Tarellians I think would make fantastic. I remember once thinking that a fluff story about a young Tarellian within a Tau world would be nice, being an expat myself, for telling a story of how Tau world can have numerous different species with their unique cultures and values existing on a world. It'd be something that talks to my own life experience with misunderstandings being rife, particularly in the beginning, and often no one meaning any offence but offence emerging anyway because of a difference in priorities or values. I'd find that interesting.
But yeah more units for them would be fun. Considering Kroot can build Warspheres I think it'd also only be fair for the Kroot to actually get some vehicle equivalents and heavier weapons to use.
@Furyou: That's also part of my problem.
Spoiler:
She's clearly chosen to die, she jumps in to save Farsight's life, because her death is the most 'tragic' or somehow more 'sad' than just a male member of the Eight dying. But I don't want GW to lapse into that kind of thinking because that kind of thinking is exactly what in many narratives sees the female characters eventually get side lined and excluded from fights. Its not meant, necessarily sometimes it could be, as an overtly negative action, often its done with good intentions, but the result is to reduce female combatants to an ever shrinking pool who eventually perform the role of nothing more than emotional support for their male counterpart. The Tau are a good example of this now; with both Shadowsun's Sisters and Torchstar dead the only major female left is Shadowsun. Unfortunately in Mont'ka she has just been reduced to 'Farsight's' second-in-command. But it is just a personal disappointment of mine. I do understand your point though.
EDIT: So this I'm confident is certain;
Spoiler:
-Farsight does not rejoin the Empire. He showed up to help Shadowsun save the day and then he departs with the implication that he and Shadowsun are now on better terms. The narrative ends with Farsight joining his Enclaves in battle against Hive Fleet Leviathen.
-Ko'sarro suffers no harm. He's pissed off but when Jubal Khan, his Chapter Master, orders him to come back to fight Huron he agrees.
-I can find no evidence of Shrike killing anyone or of any of the Eight dying so thank goodness, to me, that Torchstar is still around.
-For some reason the Adeptus Mechanicus are obsessed with the Stormsurge suits.
-The Obsidian Knight is literally invincible. As in, seriously, it destroys forces of Tau which are wrecking entire Imperial Armies but can't match the Obsidian Knight.
-Story is mostly just one Imperial Guard Commander, from Cadia, against Farsight and Shadowsun. No one else does much.
-Tau use forcefields which shield their planetary emplacements from Orbital Bombardment, forcing ground assaults, because said Planetary Installations pose a big threat to the Imperial Fleet.
-The Tau armada spends the entire book gathering itself, its spread thin, with the implication that when it is fully united again the Expeditionary Fleet can drive off the Imperial Attack Fleet.
-Culexus does kill Aun'va. Aun'va remains Aun'va to the end despite my optimism and does pretty much nothing in the story other than die anti-climatically.
-Darkstrider does kill the Vindicare who killed his Pathfinder Team.
-Longstrike survives, I'm unsure if Pask does because I could find no explicit mention of his death or survival.
-Aun'va's death is simply covered up by the High Command. Shadowsun and all the top Brass know but the Ethereal Council just uses a hologram of him to pretend he's alive for now.
-The Imperial Force fails in its mission. Task Force Retribution is disbanded and the implication is that the Warzone is over since we're told most of the military assets being used are being redistributed to more important Warzones; Chogoris, Hive Fleet Leviathen, Cadian Gate, Armageddon and such. At least half the Imperial Guard die because they are abandoned on Mu'gulath Bay and so when the Imperials bombard it again, killing everything not under a Tau Shield, they die.
-Before they leave though the Adeptus Mechanicus use a missile to ignite the Gas Clouds of the Damocles Gulf making travel much more difficult for the Tau. They can send communications freely but now they need to use new Shields to allow their Ships to move through the Gulf. Said Shields exist but in limited numbers right now.
No mention of Warp/Webway travel at all. Just that the Tau need to shield their ships moving through the Gulf now.
123ply wrote: Wow, that's awesome.. I'll probably be switching my CCC'S plasma pistol to the Wrath of Cadia. Thanks alot for that translation!
Also, are there any relics that are basically buffed up power maul? My Warlord uses one and it'd be nice to get one that has some extra benefits. But once again, thank you TONS for your translations so far!
Hey, I've translated the rest of the page. Sorry, no power maul but there's a bionic arm as well as a walking stick that commands the respect of everyone around you (!).
And my pleasure, any excuse to put my rusty German to use is good.
Anemone wrote: Makes me concerned about Shadowsun, Jain Zar, Celestine and Lelith as the only badass females left. Anyway as I said none of this is for certain. I hope the thing about Torchstar is incorrect.
Hey, don't forget about Lady Malys! She's the most badass female around! She even cut out her own heart and can match Vect for wits. I really hope they make a model of her (but hopefully not a dreadful looking like a WFB Lahmian vampire with her 'steel fan' added... ugh).
And it's awesome that Aun'va dies. Finally, some big changes coming in the Tau Empire. I like to see things shaken up. And Farsight is awesome so its good he's playing a prominent role.
True but Lady Malys was already downgraded from having Rules to only having a name. That means, in Fluff, you can count that they're prime candidates to die to make people with Rules look good. Case in point Chapter Master Corvin Severax.
Spoiler:
Farsight is, I should warn, not playing a prominent role. After the Imperial Forces retreat and launch their vengeance missiles, Farsight and Shadowsun have a chat in which Shadowsun says she believes that his coming to aide them was a noble thing to do and, thus, in return she will not attempt to capture him now but instead will repay his help by giving him a chance to leave. The two part, now on somewhat good terms, and he goes into battle against some part of Hive Fleet Leviathen threatening his Enclaves. He's unlikely to be involved in the Empire. The biggest change really was the idea that passing through the Damocles Gulf is now harder for the Tau. I'm actually not sure what GW's intention with it is. The end of the Book makes clear that its not a huge impediment to the Tau and that they aren't that worried so I'm not sure exactly what the impact in the Fluff will be. If there is any. As for Aun'va's death; Shadowsun and the other leaders of the Castes respond to it petty calmly, they use holograms of him to maintain the illusion that he is still alive until a time they feel will be better to break it to the population at large and then select an official successor. So the Empire's biggest change really is that it seems the war in the Damocles region has died down with them holding the worlds they captured, the Imperium withdrawing the bulk of its forces, but at the same time the difficulty of crossing the Damocles Gulf now making the Tau choose to slow down their expansion and consolidate their recently gained holdings in the Dovar System. Although I'll admit that seeing things shaken up I, also, must admit that anything involving the Tau doesn't really 'shake up' the narrative since they've got the smallest impact on the narrative at current. I'd prefer to see things amongst the big players; Imperium, Chaos, Necron and Orks shaken up more than the Tau.
Anemone wrote: True but Lady Malys was already downgraded from having Rules to only having a name. That means, in Fluff, you can count that they're prime candidates to die to make people with Rules look good. Case in point Chapter Master Corvin Severax.
Well, I hope not, as the DE could really use more female characters. Otherwise there's only Lelith, and Vect has undisputed control of the city, which is kinda boring. And I like that the two have a past and that she is being aided by some unknown entity (and has been spied on talking to herself with an alien voice ).
Farsight is, I should warn, not playing a prominent role. After the Imperial Forces retreat and launch their vengeance missiles, Farsight and Shadowsun have a chat in which Shadowsun says she believes that his coming to aide them was a noble thing to do and, thus, in return she will not attempt to capture him now but instead will repay his help by giving him a chance to leave. The two part, now on somewhat good terms, and he goes into battle against some part of Hive Fleet Leviathen threatening his Enclaves. He's unlikely to be involved in the Empire.
This is cool. The Farsight Enclaves should remain a distinct faction from the Tau Empire, and the two leaving on good terms is cool too. Makes Shadowsun more likable and less like an Ethereal puppet.
Although I'll admit that seeing things shaken up I, also, must admit that anything involving the Tau doesn't really 'shake up' the narrative since they've got the smallest impact on the narrative at current. I'd prefer to see things amongst the big players; Imperium, Chaos, Necron and Orks shaken up more than the Tau.
Fair enough, but the Tau really need to lose their naivety if they want to have any hope of shaking up the big players. Which is why shaking their core beliefs in the invincibility of the Greater Good and manifest destiny is essential for them to mature as a faction (as in, they need to realize how many other factions have already dominated the galaxy at some point in their history and fallen despite that). They don't realize how insignificant they are, which means they'll only fail when they meet truly challenging odds if they don't realize what they're dealing with.
The biggest change really was the idea that passing through the Damocles Gulf is now harder for the Tau. I'm actually not sure what GW's intention with it is. The end of the Book makes clear that its not a huge impediment to the Tau and that they aren't that worried so I'm not sure exactly what the impact in the Fluff will be. If there is any. As for Aun'va's death; Shadowsun and the other leaders of the Castes respond to it petty calmly, they use holograms of him to maintain the illusion that he is still alive until a time they feel will be better to break it to the population at large and then select an official successor. So the Empire's biggest change really is that it seems the war in the Damocles region has died down with them holding the worlds they captured, the Imperium withdrawing the bulk of its forces, but at the same time the difficulty of crossing the Damocles Gulf now making the Tau choose to slow down their expansion and consolidate their recently gained holdings in the Dovar System.
Well, that kinda sucks that they're keeping it secret but that also means the truth can still come out eventually. The intention with the Gulf might be that the Tau need to step up their game to join the ranks of the big players. It's an escalation. I like it.
@EngulfedObject: We can agree to disagree about the Tau needing to lose their naivety. Personally commitment to an ideological cause, simply because it seems idealistic or leaning towards transcendental answers, doesn't need to be naïve, it can simply be a great onus they put on themselves to try to improve things without succumbing to cynicism on the scale of the other galactic hegemons. Even if doomed to failure it is laudable. And who knows, nothing but change is certain, maybe it works for them one day. That might just make all the sacrifice worth it. Maybe. Regardless its just a matter of opinion I've never seen that Tau as 'naïve' simply ignorant of many things. I see them simply as committing to a different ideological view of existence. Part of what I liked about the ending of the Fire Warrior Novel is Kais' loss of faith and his subsequent back-and-forth with Lusha eventually helping him to regain faith in it not as an absolute doctrine but instead as a regulatory ideal.
But as for the Aun'va thing, yeah, the implication is just that since the Damocles Gulf becoming a Firestorm already panicked many of the Tau the Empire chose to reveal the death of Aun'va at a latter date. Since Ethereal Supremes have died in the past there's nothing calamitous about the announcement of an Ethereal Supreme's death, but it could be calamitous to have it happen so soon after the disaster at Agrellan. But I doubt this plot thread will be picked up again until the next Tau Codex (which is probably some way off) and I'm genuinely curious if they'll create a new special character to replace Aun'va or simply an in-Fluff named Character.
As for the Gulf the problem is that...the only thing it seems to be escalating is that the Tau are now putting Shields on Ships to move through the corrosive gases. It doesn't seem like a particularly big escalation. But regardless the Tau did hold onto all the worlds they've claimed recently even in the face of overwhelming odds so that in of itself I suppose is impressive.
@Crazyterran: The Tau don't gak themselves because the majority don't know. Remember an Ethereal Supreme dying, though bad, doesn't mean the entire civilization collapses (Aun'wei and other Ethereal Supremes do after all die). The problem is that the Morale was simply already low and thus they wished to preserve some of it by projecting the image that Aun'va is still alive. The Book explains that Aun'va is seen by the Tau and the other aliens of the Empire has a symbol of their Unity and thus having him give a speech helps mitigate the wounds caused by the latest attacks. I will admit a pity we never got Shadowsun's personal take on Aun'va's death since prior Fluff, like last of Kiru's Line, had built up that Aun'va sought to cultivate a very personal relationship with Shadowsun, but I don't expect deep emotional introspection from a Warhammer 40k Narrative Supplement even if I would like it.
EDIT: Just some more nuggets for those who are interested;
Spoiler:
Pask does survive, both him and Longstrike do. Longstrike is also the Tau equivalent of a grieving widow. After the loss of his Bondmates on T'ros he has sworn to never perform the Bonding Ritual again. Sadly both the Cadian commanders who are in overall command are killed. The Lord Commander, as far as I can read, is slain by his superiors whilst the Field Commander, a pretty cool guy who fought really well and Farsight admired as a worthy nemesis, is purposefully left on the planet to die by his superiors for failing to kill the Tau. Shadowsun is saved from the Callidus Assassin because of a Pathfinder Shas'ui who gives his life for her. Sadly no mention of Sternshield or Swiftflame but, that's unsurprising, they're with the other half of the expeditionary force fighting in the Dovar System whereas in this only the half left behind on Mu'gulath Bay get involved.
Anemone wrote: @EngulfedObject: We can agree to disagree about the Tau needing to lose their naivety. Personally commitment to an ideological cause, simply because it seems idealistic or leaning towards transcendental answers, doesn't need to be naïve, it can simply be a great onus they put on themselves to try to improve things without succumbing to cynicism on the scale of the other galactic hegemons. Even if doomed to failure it is laudable. And who knows, nothing but change is certain, maybe it works for them one day. That might just make all the sacrifice worth it. Maybe. Regardless its just a matter of opinion I've never seen that Tau as 'naïve' simply ignorant of many things. I see them simply as committing to a different ideological view of existence. Part of what I liked about the ending of the Fire Warrior Novel is Kais' loss of faith and his subsequent back-and-forth with Lusha eventually helping him to regain faith in it not as an absolute doctrine but instead as a regulatory ideal.
Well the Tau are shown to be pretty naive in their own codex when they ask the Eldar to join the Greater Good (under the leadership of the Ethereals no less) and the Eldar laugh in their faces. They're shown to be extremely naive when dealing with the Dark Eldar. And they're naive when they think they've killed the Space Marine "King."
078.902.M41
A day of celebration on Ka'mais. Necrons led by Anrakyr the Traveller land on the colony world to be greeted in great ceremony by the honoured Ethereal Aun'taniel. (Codex: Tyranids - 5th Edition, 21; Codex: Necrons - 5th Edition, 62)
079.902.M41 - The Harvest of Ka'mais
Aun'taniel is slain by Necron invaders. The Harvest of Ka'mais begins. (Codex: Tyranids - 5th Edition, 21)
And their ignorance is not laudable when they're not even aware of Chaos! This is just another disaster waiting to happen. So yea, I'm definitely agreeing to disagree with you on that.
Crazyterran wrote: So the Imperium holds the gilded worlds, the task force fails, and the tau break fluff and don't gak themselves when the greatest of Ethereals die.
And, while retreating, the imperium flips the tau the bird and lights a nebula on fire.
Yes its true there approach to a new alien race isn't to exterminate it on principle. They don't open discovery of a new civilization and species by eradicating it but with negotiation. Has it cost them? Yes, like the examples you just listed. That's why I said;
That might just make all the sacrifice worth it. Maybe.
But the thing to remember is that, because they don't eradicate all alien life (or even dissenting life like the Farsight Enclaves) on principle for Heresy and such that each time they meet a race; Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necron, who take advantage of that to kill them they also meet a race who doesn't do so; Jia'trix, Kroot, Demiurg, Nicassar and such. Maybe this approach will bear fruit eventually, maybe it will doom them to extinction, but I respect that they make the effort not to slide down the cynical slope till they dismiss all other life as expedient to them.
There is far more, to me, Grimdarkness to be found in a civilization striving not to enact xenocide and enslavement on a universe where the primary hegemons seek to enact it upon them, than in simply emulating the ways of those who have come before. A human civilian conquered by the Tau knows that he'll be allowed to live, allowed to follow what religion he wants and even be afforded better amenities often. Certainly he will be repressed in some ways, no worse or better than he was in the Imperium, but it would be a lie to say he is perfectly free or unfettered. But a Tau civilian cannot be conquered by the Imperium because they will kill all of them. Every last child, man, woman, elderly and infirm will be killed. Yet despite the fact that when the Imperium conquers a world of the Tau Empire they wipe out all alien life on it down to the last innocent the Tau Empire still chooses to, when conquering a human world, not genocide its entire population. In real life conflict where one side commits atrocities breeds atrocities. After all if your people are made to suffer usually you wish to respond in kind by making the innocents of your foe suffer. Yet despite the fact that the Imperium wipes out every Tau or Alien member of the Tau Empire they find the Tau Empire still does not follow the same approach towards humans of the Imperium. That is Grimdark to me. That's a story I find compelling. Its the more difficult path, the more arduous route, but they choose to traverse it nonetheless. I find that actually very intriguing. Because one can very validly ask...should they? There are easier options which would no doubt spare the lives of more Tau and member races at the cost of innocent humans. Is there not perhaps a moral onus then to rather use the more brutal methods.
Its well demonstrated in the Short Story 'Hunters' where a Catachan resistance group on Cyntheria attempt to assassinate an Ethereal. When the approach the Tau Complex where the Ethereal will be the main character is confused as the Tau have built their compound next to the city in such a way that it does not destroy or inconvenience any of the existing homes or buildings. The Catachan doesn't get this since it leaves the Tau building strategically indefensible because it is surrounded by structures. He even wonders why the Tau would not simply bulldoze the city and its inhabitants in order to build a more defensible construction. He contemplates to himself that he'd heard Tau were smart so he can't understand why they haven't destroyed the entire city to make a more defendable fortress. Its actually a genuine moral quandary. Should the Tau not perhaps be more brutal? Why extend clemency and leniency to people who are unlikely to extend the same to you? Taros, for example, has the Tau choose not to kill captured officers and soldiers of the Imperial Guard, the Shas'o specifically chooses to spare an Imperial Commander, and it is thanks to this that the Ethereal later dies. I find that a fascinating moral quandary and interesting topic. Why do the Tau not choose to simply kill all aliens like their foes do?
Certainly you can call it naïve, and I won't object to it, but to me its more than simply a matter of being 'naïve'. It's a wilful decision, a choice to react to things in a certain way. That's what's compelling about it to me and why I don't just see it as pure naivety but instead has...compelling to read. But this is just me.
Additionally I did not say their ignorance was laudable, simply that they were ignorant. Learning about Chaos is, hopefully, something they will do. When they do hopefully Farsight from Fire and Ice is right and they can confront it by denying their selfish impulses and staring back unblinking. Maybe they cannot but reading the attempt to do so without emulating the xenocidal empires of ages past is genuinely compelling. To me in any case.
EDIT: But I'm getting way off track with my philosophical musing so I'll stop there. I don't want to derail this thread again so apologies for that.
But the thing to remember is that, because they don't eradicate all alien life (or even dissenting life like the Farsight Enclaves) on principle for Heresy and such that each time they meet a race; Eldar, Dark Eldar and Necron, who take advantage of that to kill them they also meet a race who doesn't do so; Jia'trix, Kroot, Demiurg, Nicassar and such. Maybe this approach will bear fruit eventually, maybe it will doom them to extinction, but I respect that they make the effort not to slide down the cynical slope till they dismiss all other life as expedient to them.
There is far more, to me, Grimdarkness to be found in a civilization striving not to enact xenocide and enslavement on a universe where the primary hegemons seek to enact it upon them, than in simply emulating the ways of those who have come before. A human civilian conquered by the Tau knows that he'll be allowed to live, allowed to follow what religion he wants and even be afforded better amenities often. Certainly he will be repressed in some ways, no worse or better than he was in the Imperium, but it would be a lie to say he is perfectly free or unfettered. But a Tau civilian cannot be conquered by the Imperium because they will kill all of them. Every last child, man, woman, elderly and infirm will be killed. Yet despite the fact that when the Imperium conquers a world of the Tau Empire they wipe out all alien life on it down to the last innocent the Tau Empire still chooses to, when conquering a human world, not genocide its entire population. In real life conflict where one side commits atrocities breeds atrocities. After all if your people are made to suffer usually you wish to respond in kind by making the innocents of your foe suffer. Yet despite the fact that the Imperium wipes out every Tau or Alien member of the Tau Empire they find the Tau Empire still does not follow the same approach towards humans of the Imperium. That is Grimdark to me. That's a story I find compelling. Its the more difficult path, the more arduous route, but they choose to traverse it nonetheless. I find that actually very intriguing. Because one can very validly ask...should they? There are easier options which would no doubt spare the lives of more Tau and member races at the cost of innocent humans. Is there not perhaps a moral onus then to rather use the more brutal methods.
From the realpolitik angle, such mercy has PR value. The main threat of the Tau to the Imperium is ideological, not military. The human worlds that first encountered and traded with the Tau in the very 1st Tau Codex are described as getting more efficient farming equipment. Imagine that for a moment. Technology not under the monopoly of the Adeptus Mechanicusm, that works without prayer and ritual, and which improves the quality of life for the human population. Humans joining the Tau may not be equals, but they certainly would seem to benefit from a vastly improved material standard of living. When the teeming throngs of the hive cities of the Imperium are living in the equivalent of a 19th century mill town, living a dreary hand to mouth existence, the carrot of a better way of life under the Tau may certainly be appealing. Although Imperial propaganda against consorting with aliens is widespread, we know that this does not stop people from doing so anyway as people are people, motivated by greed, curiosity, etc... Then if they get a taste of the good life, they may start thinking "Hey maybe these aliens aren't that bad after all." The yoke of Tau rule takes a different form than the Imperium, and in the end still appears a lighter one to bear. The threat of the Tau is showing that an alternative way of life is seemingly possible for humanity, without the superstition of the Adeptus Mechanicus, and without the enforced brutality of the Imperium. The Imperium justifies its policies as necessary for survival but the Tau threaten that by showing maybe they aren't.
I think the Tau will invent FTL drive by the time of the next codex.
A reckoning is coming Imperium. I thought with time that perhaps the Imperium kind would "get with the program". You know maybe realize that teamwork could work or even the value of a life. Instead you set fire to a nebula and essentially throw the sub sector away with that one move.
With that one move the Imperium has shown it has the power and stupidity to eradicate itself and all life. With that one act they are now more evil than the Dark Eldar. I'll offer peace any day of the week with a DE, I'll go to lunch with a Tyranid, and I'll even try teach an Ork Tau Poetry.
There is one thing I will never do however. I will suffer not an Imperial to live. For they are now the greatest threat to all life in the universe. I would rather the Tyranids eat everything than see the Imperium win. The Imperium would see life stripped form the galaxy before they lose, and if they were about to they would do their best to end the ability for life to live.
Even the Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Chaos, and Necrons need life. It's the most minimum thing they can all agree on and fight over who gets the best tasting piece. I've now seen the lengths they'll go to live one day.
If I was an Ethereal I would make an immediate motion to deem the Imperium beyond redemption and cut off all further attempts at diplomacy and integration.
@Gamgee: You see I'm the exact opposite. The fact that the Tau don't have a philosophy of 'suffer not the X to live' is interesting to me. I much prefer it to what you're suggesting.
Also I disagree about the Imperium being worse than Orks and Tyranid. Both of those are also threats of equal measure at least to all life in the Galaxy. There's no way to say the Imperium is worse than Orks or Tyranids. As for Dark Eldar, interestingly, in the Aun'Shi short story Aun'shi makes clear that he considers Dark Eldar to be the single worst life form, dubbing them anti-tau or Co'Tau because they are predicated on the fulfilment of their selfish whims whereas the Tau'va is predicated on rejection of selfishness at the individual level. So I don't think the Tau will be making any negotiations with the Dark Eldar anytime soon. Casting any one faction in a universally bad light doesn't help anyone.
Also the Tyranid will leave the galaxy more dead than any other victor. Imperials will leave humans alive, Chaos will leave enough life to feed itself, Necron are now willing to allow aliens to live as long as they become vassals, Tyranid are the only faction which will literally wipe out all biological life if they win. Only the Necron would be alright since, presumably, the Chaos Gods would die once their potential worshippers are dead.
@Iracundus: I understand what you say but, to me, the value definitely doesn't always seem worth it. That's why I find it compelling. It seems motivated by more than simply a calculation of rational benefit.
@EngulfedObject: But regardless I really didn't want to lead to this kind of conversation. Engulfed if you do wish to discuss this with me more lets rather do it by PM so that we can keep this thread on topic. My apologies for my role in the derailing.
@EngulfedObject: But regardless I really didn't want to lead to this kind of conversation. Engulfed if you do wish to discuss this with me more lets rather do it by PM so that we can keep this thread on topic. My apologies for my role in the derailing.
Oh it's cool man, I wasn't trying to start an argument, just nitpicking about that naivety point. I actually like what you're saying, it's an interesting and different perspective from mine. Will have to think about what you've said
But I actually thought we were kinda on topic
Gamgee wrote: There is one thing I will never do however. I will suffer not an Imperial to live. For they are now the greatest threat to all life in the universe. I would rather the Tyranids eat everything than see the Imperium win. The Imperium would see life stripped form the galaxy before they lose, and if they were about to they would do their best to end the ability for life to live.
"An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded."
Ironically, you would make a great Imperial citizen if you just replaced "Imperial" with Xenos. You'll miss all the sights if you cruise through life with a narrow-minded view like that! And if the Imperium would like to see all life stripped from the galaxy before they lose, and you'd let the Tyrannids strip the galaxy of all life to stop the Imperium from winning, then what difference is there, really?
Gamgee wrote: With that one move the Imperium has shown it has the power and stupidity to eradicate itself and all life. With that one act they are now more evil than the Dark Eldar. I'll offer peace any day of the week with a DE, I'll go to lunch with a Tyranid, and I'll even try teach an Ork Tau Poetry.
You do not try to teach an Ork poetry.
Oh and about the Dark Eldar...
"Do not offer them riches, they care not for your coin. Do not offer them surrender, they care not for victory. Offer them nothing, for they come only to murder."
She's clearly chosen to die, she jumps in to save Farsight's life, because her death is the most 'tragic' or somehow more 'sad' than just a male member of the Eight dying. But I don't want GW to lapse into that kind of thinking because that kind of thinking is exactly what in many narratives sees the female characters eventually get side lined and excluded from fights. Its not meant, necessarily sometimes it could be, as an overtly negative action, often its done with good intentions, but the result is to reduce female combatants to an ever shrinking pool who eventually perform the role of nothing more than emotional support for their male counterpart. The Tau are a good example of this now; with both Shadowsun's Sisters and Torchstar dead the only major female left is Shadowsun. Unfortunately in Mont'ka she has just been reduced to 'Farsight's' second-in-command. But it is just a personal disappointment of mine. I do understand your point though.
Oh, I wasn't defending it - I guess the sarcasm of my post didn't come through properly. ^^; Fortunately it seems to be a moot point!
-Farsight does not rejoin the Empire. He showed up to help Shadowsun save the day and then he departs with the implication that he and Shadowsun are now on better terms. The narrative ends with Farsight joining his Enclaves in battle against Hive Fleet Leviathen.
-Ko'sarro suffers no harm. He's pissed off but when Jubal Khan, his Chapter Master, orders him to come back to fight Huron he agrees.
-I can find no evidence of Shrike killing anyone or of any of the Eight dying so thank goodness, to me, that Torchstar is still around.
-For some reason the Adeptus Mechanicus are obsessed with the Stormsurge suits.
-The Obsidian Knight is literally invincible. As in, seriously, it destroys forces of Tau which are wrecking entire Imperial Armies but can't match the Obsidian Knight.
-Story is mostly just one Imperial Guard Commander, from Cadia, against Farsight and Shadowsun. No one else does much.
-Tau use forcefields which shield their planetary emplacements from Orbital Bombardment, forcing ground assaults, because said Planetary Installations pose a big threat to the Imperial Fleet.
-The Tau armada spends the entire book gathering itself, its spread thin, with the implication that when it is fully united again the Expeditionary Fleet can drive off the Imperial Attack Fleet.
-Culexus does kill Aun'va. Aun'va remains Aun'va to the end despite my optimism and does pretty much nothing in the story other than die anti-climatically.
-Darkstrider does kill the Vindicare who killed his Pathfinder Team.
-Longstrike survives, I'm unsure if Pask does because I could find no explicit mention of his death or survival.
-Aun'va's death is simply covered up by the High Command. Shadowsun and all the top Brass know but the Ethereal Council just uses a hologram of him to pretend he's alive for now.
-The Imperial Force fails in its mission. Task Force Retribution is disbanded and the implication is that the Warzone is over since we're told most of the military assets being used are being redistributed to more important Warzones; Chogoris, Hive Fleet Leviathen, Cadian Gate, Armageddon and such. At least half the Imperial Guard die because they are abandoned on Mu'gulath Bay and so when the Imperials bombard it again, killing everything not under a Tau Shield, they die.
-Before they leave though the Adeptus Mechanicus use a missile to ignite the Gas Clouds of the Damocles Gulf making travel much more difficult for the Tau. They can send communications freely but now they need to use new Shields to allow their Ships to move through the Gulf. Said Shields exist but in limited numbers right now.
No mention of Warp/Webway travel at all. Just that the Tau need to shield their ships moving through the Gulf now.
I came to the conclusion the Tau are some sort of soft commentary on neocolonialism with a light communist slant. You know, economic slavery, political dependency, client states getting refrigerators and TVs in exchange for brains, etc.
At least the Imperium doesn't lie to you. They just kill you.
Gamgee wrote: I think the Tau will invent FTL drive by the time of the next codex.
A reckoning is coming Imperium. I thought with time that perhaps the Imperium kind would "get with the program". You know maybe realize that teamwork could work or even the value of a life. Instead you set fire to a nebula and essentially throw the sub sector away with that one move.
With that one move the Imperium has shown it has the power and stupidity to eradicate itself and all life. With that one act they are now more evil than the Dark Eldar. I'll offer peace any day of the week with a DE, I'll go to lunch with a Tyranid, and I'll even try teach an Ork Tau Poetry.
There is one thing I will never do however. I will suffer not an Imperial to live. For they are now the greatest threat to all life in the universe. I would rather the Tyranids eat everything than see the Imperium win. The Imperium would see life stripped form the galaxy before they lose, and if they were about to they would do their best to end the ability for life to live.
Even the Tyranids, Dark Eldar, Chaos, and Necrons need life. It's the most minimum thing they can all agree on and fight over who gets the best tasting piece. I've now seen the lengths they'll go to live one day.
If I was an Ethereal I would make an immediate motion to deem the Imperium beyond redemption and cut off all further attempts at diplomacy and integration.
Death to the Imperium.
The Tau are fighting the Imperium on the opposite side of the Galaxy From their real defences and fortifications. There's not much in the area that the Tau live in other than Macragge, Voltoris, and the introduced in Kauyon gilded worlds. All of which the Imperium still hold. In fact, the thought of the Tau dying horribly on Macragge's defences as hundreds of marine chapters teach the Tau their place amuses me.
If by 'Reckoning' you mean 'pecking at planets the Imperium have forgotten or are ambivalent about' than sure! Even Agrellan, the taus biggest victory over the Imperium, was an out of the way hive world, far away from any planet of note.
Edit: all they lit on fire was the nebula, that did not have any worlds mentioned in it. All they did was, essentially slow the Tau down for the Imperium to fortify and flip them the bird. Out of spite, of course, because screw the Xenos.
Damn, my store opens at 12 and I won't be able to pick up Mont'ka until
after work, anyone mind detailing the battles between longstrike and pask? I'll try not to ask anymore, the wait to read it is just killing me -_-
If you know anything about space is that Nebula can be very valuable places. It's not outside the realm of possibility there were worlds in there (even if its a rogue planet). If not inhabitable than certainly resource rich.
Nope that one action tells me everything I need to know about the IoM. The Tyranids are monsters that don't know what they do. The IoM most certainly had an idea of what they were doing. They posses the will and possibly use the ability to MAD any region of space if they felt like it.
They are the most evil race in the galaxy. Tyranids don't have morals. Even the Dark Eldar need lives and resources to exist. Even the Necrons want to try become biological again and need bodies. Even the Tyranids need to eat something. But the IoM? They're content burning down the boat with everyone in it. The IoM with this one act is saying it if it can't exist it will do its best to make sure nothing exists when it goes. Which is insanity.
Also they're out of reinforcements and we can still pass through it mostly unharmed.
I said the Imperium needs to be destroyed. If there are any smart humans that join us I'll give them their fair chance. It's what makes us thousands of times more reasonable than the IoM. I can now point to this one act any time I see some dumb idiot beat the "Tau have some evil tones too" drum. Yeah Tau do some shady things to keep it all running efficiently, but nothing on this scale.
In the book the IoM blows up a Nebula and unsuccessfully blows up Agrellan. Its burning but eventually it will cool down and can be reseeded since one dome is still working. This will take extra time however.
In the act of that however they ignited the nearby space nebula possibly destroying thousands of planets and tons of resources they could be using. Not to mention nebula's critical role in helping stars form. And since it's 40k which is sci fi you just know there were probably quite a few inhabited worlds that are now burned to a cinder. Either their own they didn't know of or neutral humans or even aliens Tau didn't find.
An extremely foolish act. Even the general overseeing the weapon felt uneasy about the Adeptus Mechanicus keeping it on board his ship. Exterminatus is one thing, but what they did is a whole new level. And he knows it. The book makes it clear the IoM is out of reinforcements in eastern regions and would need a lot of time to muster more to attack the Tau.
The Tau for the most part are developing new technology from the warp drives we managed to steal intact. The only strategic advantage the IoM had was its warp drives allowing them to consistently ambush and surprise us.
Tau up at least four worlds. One with extensive damage that will take a lot of effort to rebuild.
Edit
I was role playing a Tau, but that is what there is to discuss without the roleplaying.
Gamgee wrote: If you know anything about space is that Nebula can be very valuable places. It's not outside the realm of possibility there were worlds in there (even if its a rogue planet). If not inhabitable than certainly resource rich.
Nope that one action tells me everything I need to know about the IoM. The Tyranids are monsters that don't know what they do. The IoM most certainly had an idea of what they were doing. They posses the will and possibly use the ability to MAD any region of space if they felt like it.
They are the most evil race in the galaxy. Tyranids don't have morals. Even the Dark Eldar need lives and resources to exist. Even the Necrons want to try become biological again and need bodies. Even the Tyranids need to eat something. But the IoM? They're content burning down the boat with everyone in it. The IoM with this one act is saying it if it can't exist it will do its best to make sure nothing exists when it goes. Which is insanity.
Also they're out of reinforcements and we can still pass through it mostly unharmed.
I said the Imperium needs to be destroyed. If there are any smart humans that join us I'll give them their fair chance. It's what makes us thousands of times more reasonable than the IoM. I can now point to this one act any time I see some dumb idiot beat the "Tau have some evil tones too" drum. Yeah Tau do some shady things to keep it all running efficiently, but nothing on this scale.
I assume this is a IC Propoganda Holo rather than an actual out of universe discussion
Tryanids are not beasts they have a directing and controlling intelligence - thats the point!
Dark Eldar - er you do know what they are right? They exist by tourturing and killng others - but also because they like it, need it.
And their Cousins the Craftworld Eldar would be amused at the restraint of the Imperium - if such creatures tthreatened them - they would be happy to wipe out planets, star systems and many would not even blink at the thought - they have done it before.
The Necrons harvest Tau worlds at will
The Orks make war for the sake of war and can not be reasoned with or turned asisde - they simply are war - even the Tau recognise this.
The Tau wanted to become part of the greater galaxy - its not a nice place.
In the book the IoM blows up a Nebula and unsuccessfully blows up Agrellan. Its burning but eventually it will cool down and can be reseeded since one dome is still working. This will take extra time however.
In the act of that however they ignited the nearby space nebula possibly destroying thousands of planets and tons of resources they could be using. Not to mention nebula's critical role in helping stars form. And since it's 40k which is sci fi you just know there were probably quite a few inhabited worlds that are now burned to a cinder. Either their own they didn't know of or neutral humans or even aliens Tau didn't find.
An extremely foolish act. Even the general overseeing the weapon felt uneasy about the Adeptus Mechanicus keeping it on board his ship. Exterminatus is one thing, but what they did is a whole new level. And he knows it. The book makes sit clear the IoM is out of reinforcements in this region and would need a lot of time to muster more to attack the Tau. The Tau for the most part are developing new technology from the warp drives we managed to steal intact. The only strategic advantage the IoM had was its warp drives allowing them to consistently ambush and surprise us.
So its not even a proper exterminatus?? They could have used Lifeater or done it properly...........
So it was the Mechanicum not the Imperium unleshing the weapon? Nebula don;t normally ocntain formed planets IIRC? Also Thousands? Really? Does it say that Tau have unlimited reinforcements because book 1 said they were already stretched before the new conflict.
Does it actually give any information as to the compostion of the Imperial or Tau forces? (we only got details of the Tau in book 1)
All of them need life exist. They do horrible things to it, but its life. The IoM wants it to all burn if they're about to lose. That is something so stupid and short sighted I'm sure every other faction is a little concerned at least to the potential for the IoM to cut off and deny them all their food sources.
The IoM is the most evil faction now.
This crusade is considered larger than the Damocles crusade by a decent margin. 99.999...% loss of all IoM forces due to the use of this super weapon. They evacuated valuable officers and anyone plot important and then fired the weapon. The book says it would need three weeks to evacuate and he only had four hours to get as much off the planet as possible. You lost and it wasn't even the entirety of the Tau military force. It was half with almost zero space support and no reinforcements of any kind arriving.
There will be a reckoning for the IoM. Or at least the Adeptus Mechanicus. There is a Forgeworld quite near our borders I see.
Gamgee wrote: Edit
I was role playing a Tau, but that is what there is to discuss without the roleplaying.
Oh I see. Uh... carry on!
But aren't Tau usually less aggressive? They've got Gue'vesa fighting for them too. I don't think they hate the Imperium over the factions you mentioned.
Gamgee wrote: All of them need life exist. They do horrible things to it, but its life. The IoM wants it to all burn if they're about to lose. That is something so stupid and short sighted I'm sure every other faction is a little concerned at least to the potential for the IoM to cut off and deny them all their food sources.
The IoM is the most evil faction now.
Hah - did you read what i said - the other factions have done much worse and will do again - thats 40k - remeber the Nids devour entire planets - everything and everybody, dead or alive - leaving lifeless bits of rocks stripped of all resources - including minerals.
Why would the Dark Eldar be concerned - the Imperium is food - as long as it exisits - its a supermarket for tasty treats - same as the Tau Empire.
They will come again and harvest from the Empire - maybe they will send some back - women and children - tortured, broken and altered, insane - just for kicks and becase they can.
Gamgee wrote: All of them need life exist. They do horrible things to it, but its life. The IoM wants it to all burn if they're about to lose. That is something so stupid and short sighted I'm sure every other faction is a little concerned at least to the potential for the IoM to cut off and deny them all their food sources.
The IoM is the most evil faction now.
Hah - did you read what i said - the other factions have done much worse and will do again - thats 40k - remeber the Nids devour entire planets - everything and everybody, dead or alive - leaving lifeless bits of rocks stripped of all resources - including minerals.
Why would the Dark Eldar be concerned - the Imperium is food - as long as it exisits - its a supermarket for tasty treats - same as the Tau Empire.
They will come again and harvest from the Empire - maybe they will send some back - women and children - tortured, broken and altered, insane - just for kicks and becase they can.
Your not lisstening to what I said.
The Tyranids have a hive mind but we don't know if its mostly instinctual or like us and can be talked to or what. Both the IoM and the Tyranids can render a planet extinct. The Tyranids will make more of themselves and do it mostly on instinct and because they know of nothing else. Like a super smart animal. It doesn't have morals. The IoM does and it made the choice to do this. So that makes them Evil for doing it. Even the Nids don't touch nebula which are important to the growth of new stars.
DE can feast anywhere that's true, but my point is they don't go burning planets to nothing. They never will. No matter what they will need and want life to exisst to feed and torture it. So they may be depraved, but even in a weird twisted way wouldn't be able to destroy everything. There would be nothing to feed them. The DE are still the second most evil race. Maybe they'll get a codex buff or something.
The Necrons do horrific things but again need life to exist for their own twisted ends. And if they do wipe it all out they'll go to sleep and let it all reseed. The IoM makes it painfully clear they'll burn the whole boat to the ground before they'll lose.
IoM is now the most evil faction in the game. I don't think the writers intended this, but it's just the facts.
Gamgee wrote: All of them need life exist. They do horrible things to it, but its life. The IoM wants it to all burn if they're about to lose. That is something so stupid and short sighted I'm sure every other faction is a little concerned at least to the potential for the IoM to cut off and deny them all their food sources.
The IoM is the most evil faction now.
Hah - did you read what i said - the other factions have done much worse and will do again - thats 40k - remeber the Nids devour entire planets - everything and everybody, dead or alive - leaving lifeless bits of rocks stripped of all resources - including minerals.
Why would the Dark Eldar be concerned - the Imperium is food - as long as it exisits - its a supermarket for tasty treats - same as the Tau Empire.
They will come again and harvest from the Empire - maybe they will send some back - women and children - tortured, broken and altered, insane - just for kicks and becase they can.
Your not lisstening to what I said.
The Tyranids have a hive mind but we don't know if its mostly instinctual or like us and can be talked to or what. Both the IoM and the Tyranids can render a planet extinct. The Tyranids will make more of themselves and do it mostly on instinct and because they know of nothing else. Like a super smart animal. It doesn't have morals. The IoM does and it made the choice to do this. So that makes them Evil for doing it. Even the Nids don't touch nebula which are important to the growth of new stars.
DE can feast anywhere that's true, but my point is they don't go burning planets to nothing. They never will. No matter what they will need and want life to exisst to feed and torture it. So they may be depraved, but even in a weird twisted way wouldn't be able to destroy everything. There would be nothing to feed them. The DE are still the second most evil race. Maybe they'll get a codex buff or something.
The Necrons do horrific things but again need life to exist for their own twisted ends. And if they do wipe it all out they'll go to sleep and let it all reseed. The IoM makes it painfully clear they'll burn the whole boat to the ground before they'll lose.
IoM is now the most evil faction in the game. I don't think the writers intended this, but it's just the facts.
Yes we do know the Hive Mind can't be talked to / reasoned - its been tried - almost always you go mad or it enslaves you - a few escaped with minds intact and reported noting but a terrible cold inteligence observing them - and again if they can they will strip the entire galaxy bare - not just a few worlds! and then move on.
What is the difference between burning a world (although apparently not especially well) and eating it - biomass and minerals alike so their is nothing but the core left?
The Dark Eldar have indeed burnt planers before with and without their cousins - together with the Imperium the Eldar burned Hundreds to try and slow the Nids - again I don'y think you (and the Tau) appreciate the scale of 40k
The Necrons have the Destroyer cult which guess what - wants to destroy ALL biologcial life - thats entire armies of killing machines, warships and terrible technology dedicated to destryoing ALL non Necron life.
If it is able to reason then it is evil. At least as evil as the IoM. I know the DE have destroyed worlds, that's bad. None of them would burn everything to the ground though if they were about to lose. Even the IoM likely lost out on any fringe planets in the nebula.
But I don't think from a scientific point you realize the importance, size, and resources, and planets inside a nebula. Even a small one.
Gamgee wrote: If it is able to reason then it is evil. At least as evil ass the IoM. I know the DE have destroyed worlds, that's bad. None of them would burn everything to the ground though if they were about to lose. Even the IoM likely lost out on any fringe planets in the nebula.
But I don't think from a scientific point you realize the importance, size, and resources, and planets inside a nebula. Even a small one.
And its a cult for a reason. Politics.
Does it give a sense of scale or age of the nebula in the book - have stars and planets actually formed. I was not aware that there was planets in the nebula - I thought that was unusual or unlikely? Does it say there are and how many?
A Dark Eldar Archon would burn a world to the core if it amused them and / or annoyed someones else - they are that broken. Did you read what they did to the Tau Sept they came to aid?
The Destroyer Cult is not a political movement - its more like a Robot ISIS - kill everything not you - not just humans, Eldar, Taui - but all Life - fluffy bunies to genestealers, ameoba to void whales. Even the Necron Lords worry about it. They are what you are talking about -they want to clenese the galaxy in the same way as the Tyranids want to eat it....
The Chaos gods just want it as a playground.............not that Mortals would enjoy that even the Tau - they are not blank after all.
As I said the Craftworld Eldar (and the Imperium) burn worlds to the ground so the nids can;t have them - just on a much vaster scale that what you are talking about. Its the same but bigger.
In this instance it is not technically a planetary nebula, but a thick interstellar cloud (commonly refereed to as nebula by your average person). So yes there are most certainly tons of planets in there just due to common scientific sense.
The Imperium blew up the Damocles Gulf by igniting the gasses in the nebula.
Agrellan was important because it was the only stable launching point between either side of the Damocles Gulf.
I mean, the Tau get to keep the Demon Haunted and now (mostly) Exteriminatus'd world, some Imperial Guardsmen died... sounds like a typical monday on the Cadian/Eye of Terror front.
Even if the Imperials didn't win the planet, the Tau were shown what lengths the Imperium is willing to go to simply out of spite. Aun'va is dead, the war crippled Tau morale, and the Damocles Gulf burns from the Imperium's fury.
And all the Tau did that the Imperials care about is kill a first founding Chapter Master. Imagine if they took something important!
(Remember, the Kauyon book says, in addition to the fleet that was sent to attack the Tau, the Imperium heavily reinforced every Imperial world that borders the Tau. There won't be any more easy pickings after this.)
...? How the hell are the IoM the most evil faction? They're certainly not good, but they pale in comparison to the depravities committed by Chaos factions or Dark Eldar.
Your argument for Dark Eldar "needing" to torture people and raid them like cattle is a moot point, since its shown via Exodites and Craftworld Eldar's existence that this is not the only alternative they have to avoid the grasp of Slaanesh. Keep in mind that they are the ones perpetuating the legacy of the pleasure cults and hedonists that caused the Fall of the Eldar to begin with. They haven't learnt their lesson and in their arrogance seek to bring deliberate pain and suffering to all other living creatures so they can continue their sadistic lifestyle. Have you not read the "cultural exchange" that occurred between a Haemonculus Coven and the Tau? How is that not worse than the paltry scorched earth policy the Imperium used? Its one thing to simply destroy, its another to prolong and twist the pain of one's enemy to the point of making them grotesques and other abominations.
Well, it might have an effect on tau as they do make small jumps, but they can always go around. or over, if you want too look at it in a fixed perspective. It's just a waste a recorces that won't really hurt the tau in the long run. Although I guess that's my fault for expecting coherent writing from GW.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well, it might have an effect on tau as they do make small jumps, but they can always go around. or over, if you want too look at it in a fixed perspective. It's just a waste a recorces that won't really hurt the tau in the long run. Although I guess that's my fault for expecting coherent writing from GW.
What waste of resources? There's a reason why the main focus of the 40k star map is on single systems and that's because stars with habitable or exploitable worlds are super fething rare. The Gulf might not have had a single one except the ones we already know about. And even if it did, it's a small price for slowing down a potential threat to established and developed sectors beyond Damocles. Compared to the vastness of the Milky Way, the area is insignificant in size.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well, it might have an effect on tau as they do make small jumps, but they can always go around. or over, if you want too look at it in a fixed perspective. It's just a waste a recorces that won't really hurt the tau in the long run. Although I guess that's my fault for expecting coherent writing from GW.
What waste of resources? There's a reason why the main focus of the 40k star map is on single systems and that's because stars with habitable or exploitable worlds are super fething rare. The Gulf might not have had a single one except the ones we already know about. And even if it did, it's a small price for slowing down a potential threat to established and developed sectors beyond Damocles. Compared to the vastness of the Milky Way, the area is insignificant in size.
Not what is whithin it, but to use the super-weapon. It's just sort of a waste, when it'll do feth all.
It doesn't do feth all, especially against Tau that rely on real space travel. You need staging posts for expansions. the longer your supply line, the weaker your frontline.
His Master's Voice wrote: It doesn't do feth all, especially against Tau that rely on real space travel. You need staging posts for expansions. the longer your supply line, the weaker your frontline.
They don't, actually. They have warp travel, it's just slower (old BFG says by a factor of ten, but more recent fluff has them upgrading, it's probably tony by a factor of 5 or so now).
Destroying something/ some ressources my enemy stole my, even and especially that big, is typically something I think I'll be likely to do, if I were a commander in a great war.
You must hate me so so much^^
Better send it to oblivion than to let it to my enemy.
Every sacrifice for Victory, when defeat means total annihilation.
Even the sacrifice of his own soul !
Quiet disppointed by the outcomes, not so many changes in the lore/the fluff, in the end, I think.
The more things change, the less is change, I guess...
Co'tor Shas wrote: They don't, actually. They have warp travel, it's just slower (old BFG says by a factor of ten, but more recent fluff has them upgrading, it's probably tony by a factor of 5 or so now).
I know they use the warp dipping technique. It still requires them to maintain a much tighter supply infrastructure. Scorched ground tactics should be way more effective against them compared to any race capable of full on warp travel.
It seems the Tau already possess shields that allow them to pass through the burning nebula unharmed anyway though, and while it's not on all their ships currently it's only a matter of time until it is. This is a minor setback.
Anyway,, this supplement show the OP view was true:
the Imperium loose absolutely every battle against the tau empire (except maybe in some obscur badly known audio book ) .
With these supplements it is even more obvious: shield of baal, sanctus reach...
All new imperial victories. But as soon as it comes to Tau, no no, the Imperium can't win.
Just an example of what I quickly thought:
Imagine the Imperium's counter attack effectively drew back the tau forces from their new conquests (not necessarly destroying it, just tacking back their world).
So, in Mont'ka, the tau loose the campaign and retreat.
They are pursued by the imperial fleet, and ... BOUM ! thanks to their great advanced tech, they succeed to ignite the Damocles Gulf just when the imperial fleet, eager for revenge try to pass throuh...
No more imperials.
So, let's see: imperial victory against tau (at last, for once, some changes !), BUT the statu quo is maintened, no imperial invasion, and, if GW wants to continue the story, it is at the exact same point than now: Imperium forces exhausted by huges looses, no invasion etc etc...
But we have an imperial victory against tau (not everytime against everyone, but just once against the tau please !!!!)
They really should have made the orks won on sanctus reach...
Oh, and that's would be great for tau too, because, for once, they would have won by themsleves and not " tyranids drew back Imperium forces" or "the orks fought themselves as much as the tau", "an expeditionnary fleet from Cadia helped them against Gorgon"... A true victory without pretext for their enemy !
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well, it might have an effect on tau as they do make small jumps, but they can always go around. or over, if you want too look at it in a fixed perspective. It's just a waste a recorces that won't really hurt the tau in the long run. Although I guess that's my fault for expecting coherent writing from GW.
Isn't the Damocles Gulf supposed to be the one, small safe passage through the region? It's possible (and certainly seems implied) that they will have to travel through the firestorm to reach the other side.
chalkobob wrote:It seems the Tau already possess shields that allow them to pass through the burning nebula unharmed anyway though, and while it's not on all their ships currently it's only a matter of time until it is. This is a minor setback.
Time has a value of it's own. If the Imperium is withdrawing forces to deal with other foes then buying time seems perfectly reasonable.
godardc wrote: Anyway,, this supplement show the OP view was true:
the Imperium loose absolutely every battle against the tau empire (except maybe in some obscur badly known audio book ) .
With these supplements it is even more obvious: shield of baal, sanctus reach...
All new imperial victories. But as soon as it comes to Tau, no no, the Imperium can't win.
Just an example of what I quickly thought:
Imagine the Imperium's counter attack effectively drew back the tau forces from their new conquests (not necessarly destroying it, just tacking back their world).
So, in Mont'ka, the tau loose the campaign and retreat.
They are pursued by the imperial fleet, and ... BOUM ! thanks to their great advanced tech, they succeed to ignite the Damocles Gulf just when the imperial fleet, eager for revenge try to pass throuh...
No more imperials.
So, let's see: imperial victory against tau (at last, for once, some changes !), BUT the statu quo is maintened, no imperial invasion, and, if GW wants to continue the story, it is at the exact same point than now: Imperium forces exhausted by huges looses, no invasion etc etc...
But we have an imperial victory against tau (not everytime against everyone, but just once against the tau please !!!!)
They really should have made the orks won on sanctus reach...
Oh, and that's would be great for tau too, because, for once, they would have won by themsleves and not " tyranids drew back Imperium forces" or "the orks fought themselves as much as the tau", "an expeditionnary fleet from Cadia helped them against Gorgon"... A true victory without pretext for their enemy !
It's not the the imperium don't win battles with against the tau, it's that they don't win major wars designed to wipe out the tau. Because that would wipe out the tau.
godardc wrote: Destroying something/ some ressources my enemy stole my, even and especially that big, is typically something I think I'll be likely to do, if I were a commander in a great war.
You must hate me so so much^^
Better send it to oblivion than to let it to my enemy.
Every sacrifice for Victory, when defeat means total annihilation.
Even the sacrifice of his own soul !
Quiet disppointed by the outcomes, not so many changes in the lore/the fluff, in the end, I think.
The more things change, the less is change, I guess...
Defeat doesn't mean total annihilation. We'll let humans live with us.
To make clear, for those who asked, the operation of the missiles is not explained beyond them igniting 'mixtures of gas'. They use it on Agrellan/Mu'gulath Bay to kill millions of Tau and Human civilians as well as 50% of the surviving Guardsmen (note not of the original number which set out, their forces are already depleted from that). However Tau Shields can defend against it and the Tau only have 1 city on Agrellan/ Mu'gulath Bay so fortunately for them much of the civilian population survives because the City is the only shielded installation remaining. Presumably, because they are both alive as are the Eight and such, Farsight and Shadowsun withdrew to the city as well.
The Gulf being ignited does not kill or damage anything directly. Nothing, known of, lives within the Gulf. What we are told is that the Gulf is too wide for a Tau with an Horizon Drive to pass in a single jump. Thus they are now, to cross the Gulf, forced to move through it (don't bring up the fact that space is not 2-dimensional and that this then implies that the gas clouds/firestorms much stretch infinitely up and down since beyond going around in space one can also go over or under something, there are four directions to use). This is what the Imperium (Techpriests particularly) believe will be their vengeance against the Tau. Fortunately, for the Tau, the firestorm does not halt their communications and we're told Shadowsun can still easily communicate with the Ethereal High Council on Tau itself. A mere days later we're told that the Earth Caste has begun creating Shields which allow ships to move through said firestorm (presumably it'll help against weapons later too) and that through during the initial testing phase they suffer losses that the technology itself has proved promising and they have already successfully allowed some ships to cross back and forth over the Damocles Gulf regardless of the Firestorm.
That's pretty much a summation of everything concerning the firestorm. No Tau planets are lost, no Imperium Planets are lost, all planets conquered by the Third Sphere Expansion (Agrellan/Prefectia/Those other three worlds in the Dovar System and such) are still Tau controlled. However Agrellan now is largely useless beyond anything but a Military staging point and the Tau have, it would appear, decided that they should consolidate their current holdings before resuming expansion. I hope this clears up any confusion on that matter.
@123ply: Pask and Longstrike are never aware of the other (a surprising nod to realism for a character-on-character conflict in 40k). The first time they fight Pask and his tanks successfully ambush and trap Longstrike's Interdiction Cadre which had been wreaking havoc. Eventually only Longstrike and a young fellow Hammerhead pilot are alive, Longstrike attempts to buy time for his junior to escape but Pask kills the Junior and Longstrike flees. In their second fight Pask's tanks are being destroyed by the Eight but he outpaces them and ends up isolated. Longstrike, unaware of who he is, has two of his Hammerhead subordinates surround and shoot him. Later we are told that an injured Pask gets evacuated from the planet. Hope that helps.
As for complaints about a lack of change... yes its true but, then again, perhaps we were expecting a little to much change for 40k. I'll admit I'm disappointed that build-up around Farsight in Fire and Ice received no mention at all in Mont'ka and had no purpose but, again, I think we were expecting too much. The changes pretty much all effect the Tau; Loss of Aun'va, Burning of the Damocles Gulf and Shadowsun and Farsight's relationship status upgrade. For the Imperium the only change is that they've given up on their assaults against the new Tau holdings, they simply don't have manpower to spare which they feel can defeat the Tau from their entrenched positions.
@Godardc: Though of course there are things I would, at times, want to do differently and I can sympathise with disliking it I must just raise issue that I hardly think its air to say Tau only win because of outside conditions (in so much as this is true in all battles). Prefectia and Agrellan were won not because anyone was infighting or drawn away, nor Grog's Waaagh! or other examples.
My personal feelings on the story: Clearly far more ambiguous than Sanctus Reach or Shield of Baal. Because the Imperium loses Mont'ka's battle it is not written as a straight win for the Tau, the book calls it a defeat for the Tau actually, but at the same time it can't be denied that the Tau did defeat Taskforce Retribution (including an armoured clash described as one of the greatest in the history of the entire Imperium) and also maintained every planet they took whilst at the same time the Imperium is disbanding Taskforce Retribution to send it to other parts of the galaxy (that's the enormous Taskforce built up at the end of Kauyon). The Tau win the battle but, at best, its a pyrrhic victory of sorts for them. I'm even inclined to agree with the book itself when it calls it a defeat for the Tau.
It is nice to have the Guard perform so well, with Farsight even considering Starzkhan a worthy adversary. In many ways the Guardsmen do far better than the Marines have been doing for a while now; particularly Ko'sarro who clearly needs to take a break because Shadowsun is working him into an apoplexy. However part of the success here is definitely the clever use of combined arms tactics. The Space Marines are employed as they should be to launch pinpoint rapid strikes at installations of importance whereas the Guard lead the main battles with their firepower and numbers. Only the Skitarii really don't help much and that's because they don't want to. It is directly referenced that they often make things harder for their allies because of their complete lack of coordination with them. But since that's how the fluff in the Skitarii and Mechanicus Codex described them that's not a problem.
The introduction of some minor understanding of the technological equivalence between the two factions was also nice for clearing up some fluff confusion. Tau can jam Imperial communication networks and are explicitly said to have superior on the field communication, scanning and sensor technology. The Tau take advantage of this, and their weather control tech, to trap the Imperium in storms in which the Tau can see and communicate relatively easy but the Imperium forces begin to lose cohesion and the ability to see or target their foes. The introduction of Shield Generators which can survive orbital bombardments and Exterminatus-like attacks also gives the Tau a more major defence then simply having to rely on fleet action. That being said the book's implication that the expeditionary force's fleet could, if gathered fully, chase off Taskforce Retribution's fleet assets is also interesting and highlights how the Tau's tendency to stretch and divide their fleet and not be able to pull it back into a single unit rapidly is their biggest disadvantage against the Imperium's fleet. No doubt this is why the Tau invest so heavily into Planetary Shielding and Defences. So I did like some actual thought going into the conflict.
However, for me, even it being a defeat for the Tau, its still an enormously indicative conflict. The Tau are at an enormous disadvantage against the Imperium; their manpower is infinitesimal, their resources minute, their experience tiny and yet despite the vast difference in capability and power the Tau have shown that they can stand their ground against what Kauyon itself describes as a concerted and major Imperial effort to destroy them. Said stand is achieved with only half of the army they had on the other side of the Damocles Gulf, although we cannot ignore reinforcements from the Farsight Enclaves, and virtually no fleet support. Its an amazing display of temerity and stubbornness on the Tau's behalf, worthy of the Imperium.
It is a small change on a galactic scale, tiny change, but it shows that the unique capability of the Tau is that they punch far above what they should be able to. The reason they get a codex is because, despite simply being a minor Xenos Empire, they can achieve things and fight wars which seem far above and beyond their level. The biggest change has been the growth of the Tau. Consider that the last time a Crusade was sent after them it liberate several planets and drove them all the way back to Dal'yth. This time, when an even greater force is sent, it grinds to a halt on the very first planet it attacks. There is an appreciable difference there which again illuminates that the primary danger of the Tau is actually their rapid rate of growth. Their power, compared to other galactic players, increases dramatically. It would be in the Imperium's best interests to overcompensate and crush them now, before they get a chance to grow again, but the tragedy of the Imperium's situation is that they simply cannot afford to. Even though they know that the Tau if left unchecked can quickly become an existential threat they do not have the luxury of curbing it because now the window where such a extermination can be achieved without sacrificing victory against Tyranids, Orks or Chaos has closed. The Imperium now is in a horrible Aporia.
And that highlights the tragic irony of it to me. There is a reason the White Dwarf teasing Mont'ka itself states that if the Tau and Imperium could simply learn to cooperate they could achieve great things. But because they are locked in as enemies rather then progress, peace and cooperation against threats like Chaos/Orks/Nids we simply have yet another war and yet another looming threat on the horizon. I love that, reinforces the tragic irony of the Imperium I love.
Anyway that last section is simply by personal evaluation of the entire Narrative Supplement. My overall rating would be that I enjoyed it more than Sanctus Reach (although Sanctus Reach had better writing I feel) but I feel Shield of Baal was probably better. Still I will say that simply having a Xenos race perform this well is something I'll applaud regardless, hopefully it is indicative of greater change and not simply of the Tau gaining Imperium-esque victories against the Imperium non-stop. But that last section is all my own opinion, none of it is necessarily true.
I've read half the book, ending where farsightedness come in, and I'm quote satisfied. Only 13 or so on infantry regiments, 3 armored regiments with 3 (maybe more) super heavies, some skitarii, and a couple companies of space marines made it clear right before farsight came in, that the Imperium beat the Tau Empire. It's the enclaves they lost to (with support from the loyalist Tau) so far the biggest attack on the Tau to date, and apperantly only around like 20 ish combined regiments (infantry, armored, etc..) were about to take secure Agrellan prime.
I'm pretty satisfied with the book so far, but I've only read one excerpt where regular guardsmen were anything but canon fodder, I kinda hoped they had more to the story rather than dying, but it makes sense for a horde type of army xD it's odd though, with the amount of casualties suffered on both sides, ( the intro doesn't show the Tau's fighting force but I think half of them are on prefect is? ) it really seemed like the IG brought more than just 13 infantry regiments and 3 armored regiments :s those numbers might be wrong but they're the only ones I can remember right now so I'll edit it when I get a chance.
Oh and to whom it was who translated all those relics from German to English: I salute you!I had a chance to prepare my army earlier than I should have thanks to you.
Edit: according to the Task Force Organization, there were only 18 infantry regiments, 6 armored regiments, 2 artillery regiments and a bunch more. Is that a large force? I'm asking genuinely because I know on the table top, the guard play usually at company level strength, and a regiment consists of, though it varies greatly, typically has around like 6 to 8 companies I'd assume, which seems likes quite a lot, but not THAT much. Atleast to me it doesn't.
Remember that the section on 'Taskforce Retribution' begins with the disclaimer right beneath it that; "Due to the scope of the disparate Astra Militarum regiments and war fleets that were assembled as part of Taskforce Retribution, the following diagram is not a comprehensive list of forces, but rather the leadership structure to which the Imperial troops answered." So that's not a comprehensive list of forces precisely because the book says its too big and disparate a force to have a comprehensive list of forces for. It should also be kept in mind that Shadowsun is explicitly stated to have been capable of scattering the Major Attack were she not hesitant to commit her full forces just before Blackfossil Ridge because she feared that such a commitment might leave Aun'va undefended. The conflict is largely a very closely fought back-and-forth between Shadowsun and Starzkhan until the end.
However, as a personal note, I rarely bother to use force lists provided in any book to calculate anything. Different writers, at different times, do simply have different conceptions of the scope of things involved and, thus, like much in 40k such instances can often become contradictory. Hence I prefer to simply see the emphasis placed upon the importance of the conflict. I've too often found that a comparison of forces from different books and materials can seem glaringly different or outright change.
As for the cannon fodder thing, true, most of the focus is on Starzkhan being a competent commander. In fact part of what they focus on is the Guard's willingness to trade immense life because they can absorb the losses. I can understand wanting more personal focus on the Guard, I suppose as a person who's never played the Guard I didn't think of that and only focused on the commander's competency, so that I can imagine is a let down to a reader who was hoping for a much more impressive feat from the guard. It is also a bit of a pity...hopefully the Astra Militarum will get a Narrative Supplement focused on it eventually then where more focus can be put on individual action.
123ply wrote: Edit: according to the Task Force Organization, there were only 18 infantry regiments, 6 armored regiments, 2 artillery regiments and a bunch more. Is that a large force?
Not really. It's about 2-3x as many regiments as the IG deployed to Taros to fight the Tau, and Taros was a minor border skirmish for both sides. I think this is another case of GW having no sense of scale.
Anemone wrote: Remember that the section on 'Taskforce Retribution' begins with the disclaimer right beneath it that; "Due to the scope of the disparate Astra Militarum regiments and war fleets that were assembled as part of Taskforce Retribution, the following diagram is not a comprehensive list of forces, but rather the leadership structure to which the Imperial troops answered." So that's not a comprehensive list of forces precisely because the book says its too big and disparate a force to have a comprehensive list of forces for. It should also be kept in mind that Shadowsun is explicitly stated to have been capable of scattering the Major Attack were she not hesitant to commit her full forces just before Blackfossil Ridge because she feared that such a commitment might leave Aun'va undefended. The conflict is largely a very closely fought back-and-forth between Shadowsun and Starzkhan until the end.
However, as a personal note, I rarely bother to use force lists provided in any book to calculate anything. Different writers, at different times, do simply have different conceptions of the scope of things involved and, thus, like much in 40k such instances can often become contradictory. Hence I prefer to simply see the emphasis placed upon the importance of the conflict. I've too often found that a comparison of forces from different books and materials can seem glaringly different or outright change.
As for the cannon fodder thing, true, most of the focus is on Starzkhan being a competent commander. In fact part of what they focus on is the Guard's willingness to trade immense life because they can absorb the losses. I can understand wanting more personal focus on the Guard, I suppose as a person who's never played the Guard I didn't think of that and only focused on the commander's competency, so that I can imagine is a let down to a reader who was hoping for a much more impressive feat from the guard. It is also a bit of a pity...hopefully the Astra Militarum will get a Narrative Supplement focused on it eventually then where more focus can be put on individual action.
You're right, I skipped over that part when I re-read the chart, and as for Imperial guardsmen being nothing but cannon fodder who die in droves by the millions, I know they have a part to play, and I know they are largely the most essential part of a human army so I know that they do have their moments of heroism, but I have yet to really see it come out in any narrative against the Tau. Maybe the Tau are just the counter to the Imperial Guard, as oddly enough, I see a lot more mention of anything Imperial kicking Eldar ass than I ever do Tau. I just finished the book now, and kind of like Shield of Baal, the Guard's "warlord" is quite competent, but unlike shield of Baal, I don't remember a single fire warrior being killed by a las-bolt, but yet millions of men die every page lol.
And yes, it's weird though cause I remember a WD saying that Pask abs Longstrike encounter each other three times, when they only do twice :s and IMHO I think Pask is a better tank ace. Hes an ace because he operates his tanks with instinctive skill, and while so does Longstrike in a way, he also relies on his pilot suit, his Hammerhead's warning systems and etc
you're right again about it being very ambiguous, it was almost as if the narrative was switching perspective between the Imperium, and the Empire's which I think is possible considering both sides consider themselves defeated, kind of like what you said- the Task force was sent just to kill Tau and that was it, but they didn't kill them all and there for they failed. Meanwhile, the Tau underestimated the IoM, just like how the IoM underestimated the Tau, and the Tau lost their supreme Ethereal, cut them off from leaving the shielded city for the most part, and Shadowsun suffered a wound which somewhere near the end implies that the assassin's poisoned blade is still affecting her
It's actually crazy how different a character can be from different author's PoVs. In one story we got Shadowsun getting beaten up by an imperial colonial, in Mont'ka we got her trading blows with a callidus member.
Overall I enjoyed it, but some parts were lacking content. The Obsidian knight didn't seem to do much at all in this book, and the second time the skitarii engages the Tau, it describes how they're about to fight, then we never hear about them again. Same with the valkaries that were apperantly under the main colonials regiment and Amy mention of him fighting the Tau when they fell back After Farsight ' surprise. Also, tempestus scions? still really liked the back and girth action though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And another question : a website (forget if lexi or the wikia) states that a cadre is comparable to a company, but I didn't really understand what they ment. To me it seems like, in a 1500-2000 point game, the IG army would be at a single company level in terms.of size depending on how fluffy the army is compared to a Tau aemy which would consist of like 2 hunter cadres and maybe other ones, so anyone know how they compare?
I'm lookin' at you, Anemone ;-)
@123ply: As I said I can imagine, with that in mind, that it can be a little disappointing. If you want heroic moments against Tau by Guard you're probably best off reading about when the Last Chancer's killed Brightsword and the Fire Caste novel. As for the Eldar, to be fair, the Eldar are disproportionately beat up by everything in the fluff sadly.
The WD did...over dramatize more than a little. It mentioned the Tau having an unhealthy interest in Imperium Warp Technology...but literally nothing concerning that even appears in the book. As for Pask and Longstrike, dunno, I don't think there is necessarily a best. They're both just very good and, depending on myriad conditions, who would get the better of who can be different depending on the battlefield and conditions. Then again I don't feel there has to always, in combat, be an absolute best.
To be fair that book does say the Tau lost. But again, as I said, it depends on what one considers the goals of the operation. The Tau have displayed that in a very short period of time their power relative the Imperium has grown considerably, comparing this to the first Damocles Crusade.
But as for the difference in author's, yes, this is what I mean when I say its tough to impossible to have rigorously consistent fluff in 40k. Depending on author and what GW needs things can simply change and play out radically different to how they did or have in the past.
As I said I believe the writing was far from great, though I preferred it to Damnos, and Mont'ka I personally felt was lacking compared to Kauyon. Particularly though I think the problem was I expected more from Mont'ka because of how it was built up and then I ended up feeling like Kauyon was superior. But there was certainly a paucity of details at time.
As an honest confession I think I dislike the Obsidian Knight even more than I dislike Aun'va. Literally the Obsidian Knight seems to be able to do more than entire Imperial Guard Armies or Knight Houses. That irritated me a bit. But it's just a small pet peeve is all.
Overall though I can understand the dislike it gets, as I've said, I don't mind it so much simply because its the best I've read a Xenos do in a major engagement against the Imperium in forever. I just hope its indicative of an overall change and not just that the Tau will, like the Imperium, receive disproportionate victories.
I've been comparing the Imperium lighting a nebula ablaze to setting a bag of dog excrement on fire and leaving it on your neighbor's front porch.
It's a great big middle finger to the Tau. ESPECIALLY as it's hinted that the weapon which was used might have not only created these hazardous conditions, but weakened the boundaries of real-space.
How much you wanna bet we're getting warp drives next time.
It's an unresolved plot point from Kauyon that our scientists are researching them. What big advancement of Tau fluff could they do for our next update x IRL years down the line? 4th sphere + warp drive. A new Warzone Ultramar: Kauyon.
Gamgee wrote: How much you wanna bet we're getting warp drives next time.
It's an unresolved plot point from Kauyon that our scientists are researching them. What big advancement of Tau fluff could they do for our next update x IRL years down the line? 4th sphere + warp drive. A new Warzone Ultramar: Kauyon.
I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.
Gamgee wrote: How much you wanna bet we're getting warp drives next time.
It's an unresolved plot point from Kauyon that our scientists are researching them. What big advancement of Tau fluff could they do for our next update x IRL years down the line? 4th sphere + warp drive. A new Warzone Ultramar: Kauyon.
Serious question, what is with you and filling every bloody post with a Youtube embed?
Every post doesn't need some kind of youtube "soundtrack". I would say none of your posts require them.
I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.
Well...
Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.
I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.
Well...
Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.
And I really hope they don't get to that level, because of all the numbers, armour, and firepower have, it'd the Navy's ability to warp jump entire armadas that put their fleet above the Tau. I know that the Tau don't have any understanding of it. There is a Farsight relic which gives "Deny the Witch" rolls, and apperantly the Enclaves use it because they know it protects them from psychics, but they have no idea at all how it works. And there is only one. Considering the fact that The Enclaves are trying to unlock the secrets of warp jumping tech more than the Empire, and they don't know how that relic works, it would be absurd if the Tau Empire were to ever be able to make Warp jumps in space.
I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.
Well...
Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.
And I really hope they don't get to that level, because of all the numbers, armour, and firepower have, it'd the Navy's ability to warp jump entire armadas that put their fleet above the Tau. I know that the Tau don't have any understanding of it. There is a Farsight relic which gives "Deny the Witch" rolls, and apperantly the Enclaves use it because they know it protects them from psychics, but they have no idea at all how it works. And there is only one. Considering the fact that The Enclaves are trying to unlock the secrets of warp jumping tech more than the Empire, and they don't know how that relic works, it would be absurd if the Tau Empire were to ever be able to make Warp jumps in space.
Oh, they are so far away from that, it isn't even a factor. They have their short-range, slow jumps, and that's probably where they'll remain unless GW wants an excuse to advance the plot.
They dont have to get the warp travvel tech of the IoM. they simply could improve their already existing FTL drives. Make them jumping faster at a higher frequence and you travel faster. thats it. would giv Tau a greater reach and still limits them somehow.
I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.
Well...
Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.
Which actually makes no sense as the Tau Empire has various subject races that are powerful psykers - I think part of the problem is that the Tau can not get to grips with the sheer otherness of the Warp. Plus the ships that were observing the Warp "Disapeared".
Gamgee wrote:If you know anything about space is that Nebula can be very valuable places. It's not outside the realm of possibility there were worlds in there (even if its a rogue planet). If not inhabitable than certainly resource rich.
We don't know how old or how young the nebula is; therefore, we know not whether or not there were planets/stars in it. Regardless, this is a scorched earth policy; a tried and true method of exhausting enemy supply lines, delaying the enemy, and annoying the enemy to death (see: Napoleon's invasion of Russia, Hitler's invasion of Russia). Regardless of whether or not there was life in that nebula, the Imperium denied the Tau any potential allies within it, as well as any potential mineral resources.
Nope that one action tells me everything I need to know about the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Tyranids are monsters that don't know what they do. The IoM most certainly had an idea of what they were doing. They posses the will and possibly use the ability to MAD any region of space if they felt like it.
Fixed that foh yah. You see, the Adeptus Mechanicus is not actually part of the Imperium of Man; it is a partner Empire, whose goals and beliefs align with those of the Imperium (which isn't even a single faction; it's a collection of factions, but I digress). The AdMech were the only ones with the will and cold logic to acknowledge that those soldiers on the planet were expendable, and that the Tau needed to be sufficiently slowed to allow nearby worlds to fortify and raise more Regiments of Imperial Guard. This is, again, a Scorched Earth Tactic, which has proven itself effective time and again in wars throughout history. If I were in command, I would likely have made a similar decision (though I sure as hell would have evacuated more than 4 hours' worth of troops, but hey, I've got my squishy mortal morality kicking in here; the AdMech has no such inhibition).
They are the most evil race in the galaxy. Tyranids don't have morals. Even the Dark Eldar need lives and resources to exist. Even the Necrons want to try become biological again and need bodies. Even the Tyranids need to eat something. But the IoM? They're content burning down the boat with everyone in it. The IoM with this one act is saying it if it can't exist it will do its best to make sure nothing exists when it goes. Which is insanity.
Also they're out of reinforcements and we can still pass through it mostly unharmed.
No, actually, they are not content to "burn down the boat with everyone in it". The Imperium of Man does what it has to to survive. During the Age of Strife, Xenos Empires enslaved or exterminated countless bastions of humanity. During the Horus Heresy, all attempts at diplomacy ended in war due to the Xenos' provocations (see: Fulgrim,Horus Rising), which is what lead to the whole "suffer not the Xenos to live" policy. DAoT Humanity made extensive use of diplomacy, and many worlds had alien allies. What did they get for that? Pain and suffering in their moment of weakness.
Also, you're forgetting Rogue Traders and the Inquisition (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you know next to nothing of the IoM). Both are responsible for analyzing Xenos Pocket Empires, managing diplomacy with them, and determining whether or not said Empire will become a major threat in the future (in which case, they throw together a Crusade to destroy it). Had the Tau not suddenly left a Warp Storm as an emergent Empire with solid tech and allies, the IoM likely would have destroyed the Tau just as soon as its expansionist policies became apparent. However, the IoM leaves Xenos alone, so long as the Xenos aren't a threat to any nearby Imperial Worlds (same thing with non-Imperial Worlds) (see: Codex: Inquisition, Rogue Traders)
I said the Imperium needs to be destroyed. If there are any smart humans that join us I'll give them their fair chance. It's what makes us thousands of times more reasonable than the IoM. I can now point to this one act any time I see some dumb idiot beat the "Tau have some evil tones too" drum. Yeah Tau do some shady things to keep it all running efficiently, but nothing on this scale.
Gamgee wrote:All of them need life exist. They do horrible things to it, but its life. The IoM wants it to all burn if they're about to lose. That is something so stupid and short sighted I'm sure every other faction is a little concerned at least to the potential for the IoM to cut off and deny them all their food sources.
The IoM is the most evil faction now.
you - you do realize that that nebula was a miniscule speck in comparison to the Galaxy at large? That sort of loss of life is nothing; it preserves ten times the Space that was ravaged.
This crusade is considered larger than the Damocles crusade by a decent margin. 99.999...% loss of all IoM forces due to the use of this super weapon. They evacuated valuable officers and anyone plot important and then fired the weapon. The book says it would need three weeks to evacuate and he only had four hours to get as much off the planet as possible. You lost and it wasn't even the entirety of the Tau military force. It was half with almost zero space support and no reinforcements of any kind arriving.
I love how the Tau lost half their ground forces, and you still expect them to keep expanding after such a horrendous loss (against not even 1% of the Imperial Ground Forces)
There will be a reckoning for the IoM. Or at least the Adeptus Mechanicus. There is a Forgeworld quite near our borders I see.
[color=red] Which will likely be defended by the best technology in the Imperium (which is saying a lot), Legions of Skitarii, Several Titan Legions, multiple Knight Houses, Several Companies of Space Marines, Several Regiments of Imperial Guard, and who knows what else. If the Tau can take a Forge World, then its gg Imperium, becaue they will have reality-bending powers.
Gamgee wrote:
godardc wrote: Destroying something/ some ressources my enemy stole my, even and especially that big, is typically something I think I'll be likely to do, if I were a commander in a great war.
You must hate me so so much^^
Better send it to oblivion than to let it to my enemy.
Every sacrifice for Victory, when defeat means total annihilation.
Even the sacrifice of his own soul !
Quiet disppointed by the outcomes, not so many changes in the lore/the fluff, in the end, I think.
The more things change, the less is change, I guess...
Defeat doesn't mean total annihilation. We'll let humans live with us.
True, but, the Imperium teaches its people that defeat = annihilation, and not without good reason. Against Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, Rak'gol, Laer, and virtually every Xenos foe encountered with sufficient strength to trump the Imperium, even temporarily, defeat does equal annihilation. Then the Tau come along and throw a wrench in the works.
@Slayer-Fan123: I'm surprised at the hate towards non-human life. Saddened by it really. But, to be clear, I don't 'hate' the Obsidian Knight I just find him and Aun'va irritating for different reason. Aun'va for seemingly having been a caricature and the Obsidian Knight for achieving such incredibly feats on his own, consistently, that he invalidates entire Imperial Armies and Knight Houses. Additionally because I have no idea, like Primarchs, what can actually 'hurt' him. He can take volleys of fire, sustained for hours, which just earlier were described as ripping apart Imperial Knights with seemingly no ill-effect at all or even miniscule risk to his structural integrity, he can hold a front of a Tau army which is pounding enormous Guard, Skitarii and Imperial Guard forces by himself and seemingly no attempt to kill him even phases him. If I have no idea what can or cannot 'threaten' a character I'm rarely invested in them. For example Shadowsun can die to a Space Marine Captain or Callidus Assassin, she suffers injuries which put her out of commission for lengthy periods and we're told would have killed her if not for the bravery of the subordinates. The Obsidian Knight, on the other hand, can seemingly be attacked by the entire Tau Army (which was defeating multiple Chapters, Skitarii and an enormous Guard Army) and there is not even tension about the outcome. That being said, again, I don't 'hate' the Obsidian Knight, that's too strong a word, I just find its role and execution in the plot noisome. There are many such things, the Obsidian Knight is simply one example, largely because I have no sensation of tension or risk when it is involved.
@dusara127: I think that is perhaps an...overly charitable description of the Imperium's historical relations of alien races compared to, say, the historical relations of certain other alien races (and human groups) within the setting to each other. Just in case I'll respond but...I'm not certain if it was hyperbole or not so I'll rather just make clear my confusion at the outset in case it helps us.
The Imperium wiped out the Diasporex with no provocation or attempt at negotiation beyond offering the Human members of the Diasporex a chance to leave before they kill everyone. The last words of the final Diasporex Captain are literally; "We just wanted to be left alone,". Bel Haloth killed an entire planet of humans, billions strong, because they had largely been protected from Old Night and thus still had advanced machines helping them. They weren't violent, didn't fight anyone and never posed a threat to the Imperium but the Marines executed every last citizen on the world. Attempting to defend the Imperium as being justified in wiping out every single non-human (or not human enough) group it encounters is probably the one thing I simply cannot swallow. The Tau don't practise this policy and have they all died because they don't genocide every non-Tau (or Tau enough) group they encounter? There are many alien races which mankind killed for no reason; Tarellians and the Diasporex to name but a few. Indeed we know also from the Tau backstory that the Imperium regularly kills off the native populations of planets even if they pose no threat to them simply because they want the world. It is false to say the Imperium would have 'left the Tau alone till their expansionistic policies became clear' because the very backstory of the Tau species is how the Imperium intended to wipe out all the primitive Tau (who posed no threat to them whatsoever at that point) simply to take their planet. This is par for the course, the Imperium wipes out any alien race it can which is on a planet it wants, it does not just react as if some perennial 'victim'. As if only the Imperium is a 'victim' within the setting and not innumerable other races which are victims too. Every case of Diplomacy did not fail. Before Fulgrim's attempt to talk to Eldrad and Horus' talk with the Interex their men make clear in the books that talking to aliens is considered against protocol and immediate annihilation is standard procedure. Horus argues that the Imperium can now afford to negotiate because it has a position of strength and then Erebus ruins things, Fulgrim argues that the creators of such beautiful planets as the Maiden Worlds are worth listening to and then Slaanesh ruins it. The Imperium never tried democracy with the inhabitants of the World Bel Haloth wiped out, with the Diasporex, with the Keykelids and innumerable other groups. The only reason the Laer were going to be potentially offered vassal status was because they were considered dangerous enough to perhaps warrant it. Additionally the IoM leaves Xenos alone only so long as they do not have the capabilities to destroy them. Ideally the IoM, has explicated multiple times, wishes all Alien life dead. Only practical concerns stay their hands. If they have the capability to realistically wiped out an alien race they do so. When the Macharian Crusade encountered the species known only as the 'Tentacled Beasts' an emissary made contact with them and found them to be an advanced and friendly species. Senjanus, general under Macharius leading that part of the Crusade, then did his job and dropped a bomb to annihilate the species. Thankfully, for once, the genocide of countless innocents was prevented because the species had advanced field technology which stopped the bomb and the Crusade force fled.
Attempts to argue that the Imperium is 'justified' in wiping out all life which doesn't conform to their ideology and belief is unbelievable. If that were the case the Tau, a confederation of more than 11 races now, should not be an efficient quickly growing hegemon but a devastated wasteland. From comments made before contacting Eldrad, the Interex and the Diasporex it is made clear that the Imperium, as protocol, even in the Great Crusade operated under the logic of wiping out any non-human (or human enough) group down to the last innocent woman, man and child. The Tau have been attacked by Tyranid and Orks too, are they now justified in genociding any species they meet because they two who will always try to kill them? Thankfully the Tau don't think like that and hence we have the Jia'trix, Demiurg, Greet, Nagi, Kroot and many more as direct evidence that cooperation and coexistence is clearly possible amongst the alien species' of the universe.
Eldar don't always annihilate their enemies. For example their is the Biel-tan Autarch who helped resettle colonists on to a moon and promised to protect and help them so long as they do not settle the Maiden World the moon orbited. The Diasporex do not annihilate their enemies yet they were still wiped out. The Kroot don't. The Tentacled Beasts didn't. The Tau don't. The Jia'trix don't. The Tarellians didn't. The Keylikids didn't. These races exist in the same universe as the Imperium of Man. Yet they don't practise the same policy. Now that the Asurmen Book is out we know that even at its height the Eldar Empire didn't believe in exterminating other races. Asurmen, in his flashbacks, explains that the Eldar simply allowed other races to develop as they wanted with some Eldar choosing to specifically live with these races and experience what their lives were like (since the Eldar of the time were as we all know obsessed with experience).
Every race which has encountered Orks has suffered. Every race which has encountered Tyranids has suffered. Every race which has encountered Dark Eldar has suffered. Yet despite this races such as the Tau, Tentacled Beasts, Diasporex and Greet to name a few can cooperate, can coexist and choose not to simply kill all other races and beings they encounter. The Imperium's xenophobia is not some justified construct which they would die without, otherwise there should be no Tau Empire, be no Necron Dynasties (since they accept Alien Empires as vassals) or even the Eldar Empire at its height should not of existed. Knowing to confront and fight a race like the Orks or the Nids does not require that all other life be killed. That was an ideological choice of the Emperor and his subjects, not a necessary characteristic. The latest White Dwarf itself makes clear that the Imperium will, and wants to, kill every alien in the galaxy. Only practical concerns stall them, if they gain the capability to wipe out an alien race they will do so. The Great Crusade no doubt wiped out more unique, diverse and potential forms of life than any other event in the history of the Warhammer 40k universe. Those futures, those potentials (both good and ill) can now never exist or be know. Even though in many cases, as the Diasporex Captain said, they simply wanted to be left alone.
That is why there is a compelling, a resonant, aspect in a Tau novel which no Imperium novel can ever have. The Fire Warrior Novelization is a good example. In it Kais at one point injures a Guadsman who then can't fight back. As a result Kais doesn't kill him because he is no longer a threat and Kais feels to kill him now would be immoral. However the man keeps screaming and attracting attention, Kais begins to beg him to stop, but in the end to save his own life kills the man. That's a wonderfully compelling moral quandary and moral compromise. Its all the more resonant and powerful for being something which real people in the real world struggle with daily. I can't call if Kais is right or not, this is something being debated even today amongst the philosophers of the world, but it is an intriguing look into what soldiers must face. It is all the more powerful because for Kais, and the Tau and many other races, there is a moral onus to not kill or harm even other races, to spare them pain when possible.
But in an Imperial story that cannot ever happen. If a Guardsman comes across a Tau, even a civilian, there is only two alternatives. Overwhelmingly, the first, is death. The Imperium does not take Xenos prisoners. When a Guardsman finds a Tau woman, a shop clerk, pregnant he bayonets her in the womb, he melts her head, he kills her for existing. A Space Marine would most likely not expend the ammunition of a Bolt Shell, he has no need to and it would be inefficient, and simply stomps a Power Armoured Boot through the innocent woman, mashing the unborn child into a paste whilst the mother-to-never-be simply gapes her last few moments away. Far more unlikely, and worse, she might be taken for dissection. Watch as they vivisect her, tear her living child from her womb and before her eyes mutilate and shred it to learn how to kill it better as she is tortured to death.
No. The Imperium is not justified in its attitude towards all Xenos life nor is it necessary. That is a choice the Imperium makes and which the Tau Empire, and the Asurmen book Eldar Empire, make clear is not a necessary fact. The Imperium, and the Emperor, choose that. Having seen what 'othering' in the name of self-defence and national survival does in the real world, and knowing that it is a million times worse in the Imperium, I definitely will not, cannot, agree that the Imperium's treatment of Xenos is justified or necessary and will dispute that. When I play a 40k faction I do not do so thinking I am 'in the right' or doing 'moral good' I simply enjoy playing with my toys and their rules. I hope no-one truly believes their is a 'morally good' government in Warhammer 40k. People, yes, on all sides. But no government. I would never justify the Imperium's existence as I would never justify the Ork's right to endless bloodshed or the Eldar's right to dominion, or the Tau's right to annexation and on and on. It would be far better to change, as would all the hegemons of the galaxy.
Apologies for the lengthy response, particularly since I know it is once again grossly off-topic, but this is sadly one topic on which I do not wish to keep quiet even at my own expense. But I do apologize sincerely to all.
Anemone wrote: If that were the case the Tau, a confederation of more than 11 races now, should not be an efficient quickly growing hegemon but a devastated wasteland.
There is no Tau confederation. The Tau rule the Tau. Everyone else is a willing dependant at best, a slave at worst.
Very well we shall focus on this one point and ignore the rest then I suppose;
1) Where is it ever said Kroot are slaves? Gue'vesa are slaves? Please point me to this canonical reference. I have read numerous novels and Kroot have always, happily, expressed their relationship with the Tau in novels (such as Commander Shadow) as being one of, in their own words, 'friendship' and 'mutual cooperation' to the point where the Kroot species has taken the collective decision that along with chaos infected substances the only other life forms one is proscribed from eating is the Tau. In the Damocles Anthology we have an interesting short story in which we follow the perspective of a Gue'vesa Auxiliary and it is clear he is not a slave. Clearly inferior to, say, a Fire Caste Shas'o in treatment but to call him a slave would fail the objective definition of a slave by far. Show me a canonical source of a alien member of the Tau Empire being treated as a slave according to the objective definition of Slave. As for dependant? Sure, I'll agree to that, as I said the Tau Empire has many of its own faults. But what's your point? The Imperium treats numerous beings like slaves and dependants. The Imperium doesn't even treat Aliens as dependants it simply kills them. At the very least the Tau don't do that. Besides, as demonstrated by Kroot and Gue'vesa in the novels life as a dependant of the Tau is still a far more liberal and multicultural existence than anywhere else in the galaxy at current.
2) Now, as I stated above, I disagree completely with your characterization of the dichotomy beneath Tau rule. However even if we accept your grossly overstated characterization of it the core point would still not change. Life as a willing dependant of the Tau Empire is far preferable to all Aliens and many Humans to life beneath the Imperium. Aliens cannot become dependants or slaves of the Imperium because they will be killed. Thus there is an obvious objective preference even if we accept your characterization of the Tau. Which, I reiterate, I do not or see canonical support for.
Well at least this seems to be the only point under contestation;
1) As already acknowledged the Tau do treat individuals unwilling to cooperate by putting them into labour camps. However we have also been told the conditions of said camps in prior fluff. Said conditions include being fed, not being regularly beat, not being turned into Servitors and not being experimented on. By contrast the human population of many worlds in the Imperium are regularly beat to death, starved, experimented on or turned into Servitors. The Alien population of world's conquered by the Imperium are all killed. Again this point does not then change any of the aforementioned core points or the issue concerning Slavery or Dependency since it effects only those who are unwilling to cooperate and not all aliens (as does the Imperium's universal xenocide) or most humans.
2) It is hinted not all go willingly. This has been addressed already. It is also made clear in the Damocles anthology that many on Agrellan don't mind and prefer the Tau administration of the world.
I'm not engaging your argument about the Tau being better than IoM because vivisected children and nasty Space Marines infantipaste recipes. I'm clarifying your misconception. The Tau Empire is not a confederation. No race except the Tau has any say in what the Empire does.
As for slavery, the Tau method might not meet the classical definition of chattel slavery, but this isn't about individuals, it's about whole species. The Tau are employing classic neocolonialism on a galactic scale. Remind me what do Tau do to species that refuse to join the Greater Good? Or ones that want to leave the Empire?
The confusion then arises from my use of the word 'confederation' in the earlier post. I didn't mean it as in its usage referring to a political body, as you are saying, but as in the verb that a group of species are cooperating or 'acting as confederates' together. If that is the case then I understand what you mean.
Yes, that's correct, the Tau Empire's political structure is not that of a Confederation.
However no race but the Tau having a say is to complex for me to necessarily agree to. When decision emerge in the Damocles Anthology, in Skilltaker, about military engagements on Agrellan the Shas'O, a female, makes clear that the Gue'vesa should have authority to make decision because they know the Imperium better. If micro-decisions at different levels (such as Demiurg industrial output, Nicassar Merchant Fleet directions) are accepted as they are in some political discourse as amounting to an amalgamation which directs a polity then other races do definitely have an influence upon the Empire. This is not to dispute that the Tau have a disproportionate position, that's not being disputed, as I said the Tau do still have a superiority system in place within their own Empire. It is simply not as extreme as being suggested. Additionally in Commander Shadow the presence of Kroot troops, and in the Farsight Enclaves, occurs upon request it is revealed and not requisition. Unlike the Imperium the Tau cannot requisition the Kroot to come when they want or where they want. Instead in both fluff sources the Kroot are described as answering Tau requests for aide and in Commander Shadow we even see the Tau thanking the Shaper for his willingness to answer their request for aide.
The Tau don't enslave. That's not to say what they do to the absorbed species is right, not at all, simply that is definitely better than slavery or mass genocide. But, again, the Tau are not 'good' or 'nice'. As I said earlier there is no 'moral' government in 40k. That's a point I've already made.
As for what happens to those that are unwilling to join the Empire, as in the case of the Arachen, we are definitively told that the Arachen are not genocided. However, again, that does not make Tau treatment of the Arachen right. The Tau had no right to chase the Arachen out of the veil. The Tau were wrong. However, again, I never made the point 'the Tau are good' I made the point that the Imperium's position on aliens is not justifiable or necessary.
EDIT: Regardless here I am, again, ugh. If someone really wishes to have this conversation with me I will be more than happy to oblige in PM's. However I'd prefer, again, to not, again, derail this thread, again. I feel guilty enough for the number of times I've had to do this.
Of course the treatment of aliens by the IoM is justifiable, if only by nature of efficiency. IoM deals with hundreds of thousands of alien cultures, on a completely different scale compared to the Tau. To facilitate co-operation and assimilation of those species would weaken the internal structure of the Imperium and make it dependable on potentially fractious elements. We already know how badly the separation of the Throne and the Cult Mechanicus affects the operations of the whole human sphere. No one in their right mind would want to multiply that by a factor of thousands.
It's simply easier to remove the unknown factors and replace them with known ones - humans. It's not good or moral by our standards, but it's not mindless or pointless either.
As an aside, has there been a single instance where a subservient species refused a request from the Tau?
1) The fact that the Imperium suffers from serious efficiency issues is the result of far more than the internal divisions within it. It is also the result of its bureaucratic, ideological and religious composition. The Imperium could first attempt to alter these before resorting to a system which destroys anything not conforming to it. Why select the option which requires mass xenocide instead of first altering and reforming internal positions and political/administrative/bureaucratic methods? The blame cannot be solely placed upon 'internal divisions' and then carte blanche say the only response is the death and destruction of all things which do not conform. Reforming internal structures to be more efficient, rational and not based upon feudal/noble/theocratic/dogmatic structures is as important a step as any other. Solving these could then permit cooperation and reduce need for genocide and xenocide thus xenocide is still not justified.
2) Humans are not 'known' factors. Indeed in 40k humans have often done more harm to humans than any alien race has (Chaos Space Marines/Horus Heresy) thus in many ways humans are potentially far more volatile and dangerous 'factors' than alien species such as the Tau, Diasporex, Greet and Tentacled Beasts and such.
3) When I argue 'unjustified' I am speaking in the tradition of rational ethical philosophy. Thus by justified I exactly mean moral (in a rational, ethical and Kantian sense). No argument is being made that it is 'mindless' or 'pointless' simply that it is not justifiable or necessary. As said the Eldar Empire (which lasted far longer and was far more advanced) than the Imperium did not exterminate or wipe out alien races on the principle that they were alien races. In the Asurmen book we are informed that they simply ignored other races. The Imperium need not incorporate other races it need merely not kill them simply for existing.
EDIT: Yes. In Commander Shadow a side effect of eating Catachans is that the Kroot who ate them inherit a streak of insubordination. As a humorous call-back to the beginning of the book we are told said Kroot are highly uncooperative with the Tau and that, as a continuation of a joke between the now deceased Catachan Commander and Commander Shadow, the Kroot Shaper has taken to using the derogatory nickname the Catachan Commander used to use for Commander Shadow and rarely complies with his requests.
EDIT 2: I apologize but I'm not sure if I can do this much more. If I fail to respond to someone or such please understand its not that I don't want to respond, don't have something to say or wish to belittle your statement by not responding I simply am under no illusions about the weakness of my constitution for such matters. This need not change anything, feel free to respond or PM or whatever, but lest I accidentally cause offence I thought I'd just put this disclaimer here in case.
Can we put away the moon made of cheese and let the pigs fly away?
IoM does not have the luxury of being able to just stop everything and reform itself, unless of course the Ork, Tau and Chaos take a millennium long vacation in another galaxy. Nor is the IoM the Eldar Empire, with its funky Webway, which accidentally made ignoring everything else in the galaxy rather easy and let the pointy ears play by entirely different set of rules.
IoM is a ponderous, half paralysed behemoth that relies on monolithic dogma for survival. It does not have the option of leaving potentially dangerous weak spots in its structure, be it physical or mental. Is it moral to spare a race at the risk of introducing another Lear into the Imperium and potentially destroying the entire human sphere?
The recent Horus Hersey series has that the "death to all Aliens" is a relic of the Emperor's initial crusade - one of the few elements that has survived relatively intact.
We also know that there are elements in the Imperium - especially in the Ordo Xenos that are willing to work with the Xenos in the short and/or long term.
However all within the Imperium are brought up to consider Aliens are exactly that: Alien, to be feared, reviled and destroyed.
@His Master's Voice: 1) This is not actually a discussion about the Imperium reforming. That's not going to happen, its not part of the setting, so in no way is this a realistic discussion about the Imperium reforming because that's not part of the game.
2) This is simply about the Imperium not needing to prosecute absolute xenocide nor it being required for their continued survival. That position of the Imperium's is unjustifiable. No surprise since they, like everyone else, are still bad guys.
3) There is no reason to assume reformation=instant collapse simply because it gives a reason not to attempt it. Could said attempt cause trouble? Yes, like the prior point I made about the Tau's willingness to negotiate it comes with sacrifices. But it is still a worthwhile endeavour and, unlike what you say, that outcome is not a set face. It cannot be predicted for sure.
4) Again the Imperium destroys alien races it need not. The Diasporex or the attempt on the Tentacled Beasts. It need not incorporate said species. Why not simply leave them alone since they are doing nothing aggressive to you?
5) The Imperium can change. There is no reason to assume it is impossible for change to occur. Simply saying 'it cannot change then it will die' is not a definite fact. We do not see the attempt so we do not know. There is no reason not to think they can attempt to change.
6) It is moral to leave alive species which do not threaten you at a point in time, yes. By using the moral logic you are espousing at the end of your post we, as an individual, should kill all other individuals right now since, of course, it is fully within the realm of possibility (most likely a fact) that eventually someone else might or will give rise to, directly or indirectly, something that could hurt, harm or inconvenience us. If one is justified, or morally obligated, to wipe something out because of the fact that a potential threat might emerge from it in the future then we are required to wipe out anything which could potentially threaten us in the future and that would mean...we have to wipe out everything. Even ourselves by some rigorous applications of rational philosophy. Moreover, if we are talking deontology, we are simply justifying anyone wishing to eradicate us by the categorical imperative we are creating.
Anemone wrote: This is not actually a discussion about the Imperium reforming.
And yet you continue to argue the point. At length.
Anemone wrote: Why not simply leave them alone since they are doing nothing aggressive to you?
Because it weakens to dogma and the territorial integrity of the Imperium, both of which are fundamental factors in its survival in the 41st millennium. Because IoM is a very poorly run organisation.
I guess it's good that that I never said it can't. But 'can change' is not the same as 'can survive the change'. Show me a political entity that managed to successfully reform itself while engaged in all out war on all fronts, against opponents that often don't have the word 'ceasefire' in their vocabulary.
Anemone wrote: 6) It is moral to leave alive species which do not threaten you at a point in time, yes. By using the moral logic you are espousing at the end of your post we, as an individual, should kill all other individuals right now since, of course, it is fully within the realm of possibility (most likely a fact) that eventually someone else might or will give rise to, directly or indirectly, something that could hurt, harm or inconvenience us. If one is justified, or morally obligated, to wipe something out because of the fact that a potential threat might emerge from it in the future then we are required to wipe out anything which could potentially threaten us in the future and that would mean...we have to wipe out everything. Even ourselves by some rigorous applications of rational philosophy. Moreover, if we are talking deontology, we are simply justifying anyone wishing to eradicate us by the categorical imperative we are creating.
You are not answering my question. Is it moral to risk the lives of your fellow humans by sparing the lives of aliens when the empirical experience of the universe gives you a coin flip chance for the alien to be either a pacifist philosopher or an aggresive war machine, and the outcome of the flip can change over time? How many lives and how much territory had the IoM lost because the Tau were not destroyed in their infancy, when they were simply minding their own business? How much more will be lost? At what point does the consequences of your just action become worse that an unjust action you chose not to take? I mean, just so that we're clear, if you say 'never', I can definitely respect that.
As far as categorical imperatives go, the IoM already faces opponents that want it erased, no questions asked. Giving them an extra reason doesn't matter at this point.
You continue to argue it by the same margin. My point by stating it was not an argument for the 'realistic' change of the Imperium was to prevent the argument from sliding into normative statements and instead keep it in the realm of discussing justifiability since that was the issue I had mentioned. Saying I argue the point at length is moot, so do you, so what is proved or achieved by pointing it out?
How does it weaken territorial integrity to not kill someone and take their territory? The Diasporex and Tentacld Beasts existed in territory outside the Imperium, the Imperium didn't have to attack or kill them, it was simply the decision of the Imperium to do so without provocation. If you do not need a dogma of kill all aliens why keep it? Why not simply have a dogma of kill what threatens me? Why is there an obligation to expand such dogma from what it need by (fight back against what threatens me) to what it need not be (kill anything not conforming to my world view even if it doesn't threatens me). There is no need for th dogma to include the destruction of those things on principle. One can have a society be anti-Ork, anti-Nid, anti-Chaos and still not eradicate other alien life forms on principle, The Tau are a clear example that such a routine easily possible. Thus said dogma is not necessary.
The Imperium does not in any way face such instant death at current that a change in policy would instantly spell its end. There simply isn't any Vince with which to say 'the moment they change anything they will die'. If you do have evidence of where that has been canonically stated I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, as I've seen numerous times, it becomes a crutch to justify something by insisting that if it were any other way it would definitely be bad. It's a method of denying any attempt to change by insisting the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
I did answer your question. I said that yes, it is immoral to kill a person because they might be a future threat to you. Otherwise, as I demonstrated, we should all be killing each other right now. Since we all potentially pose future threats to ourselves. In 40k mankind has intimate awareness thanks to the Heresy that they pose a huge potential threat to each other and, thus, using your logic that if something poses a threat to you in the future you have a moral obligation to destroy it (including innocents and civilians) all humans should kill each other in order to prevent said future potential threat. My answer was clear, in the first line you'll see right before the full stop I said 'yes'. Additionally you are shifting positions by staring immorality with the Tau conquests. As valid a question is 'how many alien lives could have been spared if mankind was wiped out in its infancy' shifting the goal posts to automatically start at the Tau and always cast the Imperium as 'victim' is completely irrational. If you wish to inquire how much life was lost to the Tau then why not go further back and inquire how much life was lost to the Imperium? Why only analyze one faction when the other faction, in this case, has killed astronomically more? One is justified to fight back against existential threats. The Imperium does not simply do that. The Diasporex, the Tentacled Beasts and the Tau in their infancy are all examples of (and far from the only) of beings who posed no threat but the Imperium intended to kill regardless. Said position is unjustifiable and uneccesary.
As for the categorical imperative; races which do not give the Imperium a reason to annihilate them should thus not be subject to the same imperative. Orks, Nid and Chaos all give justification for their destruction because they intend it to everyone else. Greet, Diasporex, Tau and Tentacled Beasts to name a few do not and thus the Imperium is unjustified and unnecessary in its attempts and successful genocides of them.
Anemone wrote: How does it weaken territorial integrity to not kill someone and take their territory?
Uh, that's how it works in the real life. You don't leave pockets of unclaimed territory behind your lines. It's bad business and an invitation for a catastrophe. Likewise, having safe border is good practice.
Anemone wrote: One can have a society be anti-Ork, anti-Nid, anti-Chaos and still not eradicate other alien life forms on principle, The Tau are a clear example that such a routine easily possible. Thus said dogma is not necessary.
The Tau lived a sheltered, cosy life. The first alien race they encountered were essentially the Noble Savages of 40k. They make for an extremely poor comparison for IoM's situation.
Anemone wrote: The Imperium does not in any way face such instant death at current that a change in policy would instantly spell its end. There simply isn't any Vince with which to say 'the moment they change anything they will die'. If you do have evidence of where that has been canonically stated I'd appreciate it. Otherwise, as I've seen numerous times, it becomes a crutch to justify something by insisting that if it were any other way it would definitely be bad. It's a method of denying any attempt to change by insisting the outcome is a foregone conclusion.
Oh, don't get me wrong, I have no evidence to support my position. It's a fictional setting we're talking about, with barely a sliver of its structure exposed to us. I do have a general knowledge of the history of human organisations that tells me the higher the level of orthodoxy, the bigger the trauma of any attempts at reformation. Or that striking at the fundamentals of your organisation in a moment of crisis is a generally poor idea.
What exactly do you present to support your position, other than the assumption that the Imperium is only a step away from enlightenment and they only need to try a little harder?
Anemone wrote: Additionally you are shifting positions by staring immorality with the Tau conquests. As valid a question is 'how many alien lives could have been spared if mankind was wiped out in its infancy' shifting the goal posts to automatically start at the Tau and always cast the Imperium as 'victim' is completely irrational.
How about you stop putting words in my mouth? The point I was making was that the Tau were once a small, unimportant race that now poses a potentially existential threat to the Imperium. They're the poster boys for Imperial policy of exterminating seemingly benign races, because there is no guarantee those benign races will remain so forever.
As I said, I don't have an issue with your absolute morals. I just don't think they can be applied to IoM without causing its destruction.
The only thing I have to add to this argument is that the word' Gue'vesa', if following the same construction as 'kor'vesa', puts humans and drones on the same sociological level within the Tau Empire.
The suffix "vesa" simply mean helper. Gue'vesa means "human helpers". It's not anything bad. Remember that O'vesa, is an earth caste scientist in the enclaves.
I'm going to request that this thread gets back on topic. Background and discussion of Warzone: Damocles. The actions during and the potential consequences as a result.
Not the discussion of the Morality and Governing consequences of either the Imperium of Man or the Tau empire. Please make a new thread to discuss this
).
