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Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





To make clear, for those who asked, the operation of the missiles is not explained beyond them igniting 'mixtures of gas'. They use it on Agrellan/Mu'gulath Bay to kill millions of Tau and Human civilians as well as 50% of the surviving Guardsmen (note not of the original number which set out, their forces are already depleted from that). However Tau Shields can defend against it and the Tau only have 1 city on Agrellan/ Mu'gulath Bay so fortunately for them much of the civilian population survives because the City is the only shielded installation remaining. Presumably, because they are both alive as are the Eight and such, Farsight and Shadowsun withdrew to the city as well.

The Gulf being ignited does not kill or damage anything directly. Nothing, known of, lives within the Gulf. What we are told is that the Gulf is too wide for a Tau with an Horizon Drive to pass in a single jump. Thus they are now, to cross the Gulf, forced to move through it (don't bring up the fact that space is not 2-dimensional and that this then implies that the gas clouds/firestorms much stretch infinitely up and down since beyond going around in space one can also go over or under something, there are four directions to use). This is what the Imperium (Techpriests particularly) believe will be their vengeance against the Tau. Fortunately, for the Tau, the firestorm does not halt their communications and we're told Shadowsun can still easily communicate with the Ethereal High Council on Tau itself. A mere days later we're told that the Earth Caste has begun creating Shields which allow ships to move through said firestorm (presumably it'll help against weapons later too) and that through during the initial testing phase they suffer losses that the technology itself has proved promising and they have already successfully allowed some ships to cross back and forth over the Damocles Gulf regardless of the Firestorm.

That's pretty much a summation of everything concerning the firestorm. No Tau planets are lost, no Imperium Planets are lost, all planets conquered by the Third Sphere Expansion (Agrellan/Prefectia/Those other three worlds in the Dovar System and such) are still Tau controlled. However Agrellan now is largely useless beyond anything but a Military staging point and the Tau have, it would appear, decided that they should consolidate their current holdings before resuming expansion. I hope this clears up any confusion on that matter.

@123ply: Pask and Longstrike are never aware of the other (a surprising nod to realism for a character-on-character conflict in 40k). The first time they fight Pask and his tanks successfully ambush and trap Longstrike's Interdiction Cadre which had been wreaking havoc. Eventually only Longstrike and a young fellow Hammerhead pilot are alive, Longstrike attempts to buy time for his junior to escape but Pask kills the Junior and Longstrike flees. In their second fight Pask's tanks are being destroyed by the Eight but he outpaces them and ends up isolated. Longstrike, unaware of who he is, has two of his Hammerhead subordinates surround and shoot him. Later we are told that an injured Pask gets evacuated from the planet. Hope that helps.

As for complaints about a lack of change... yes its true but, then again, perhaps we were expecting a little to much change for 40k. I'll admit I'm disappointed that build-up around Farsight in Fire and Ice received no mention at all in Mont'ka and had no purpose but, again, I think we were expecting too much. The changes pretty much all effect the Tau; Loss of Aun'va, Burning of the Damocles Gulf and Shadowsun and Farsight's relationship status upgrade. For the Imperium the only change is that they've given up on their assaults against the new Tau holdings, they simply don't have manpower to spare which they feel can defeat the Tau from their entrenched positions.

@Godardc: Though of course there are things I would, at times, want to do differently and I can sympathise with disliking it I must just raise issue that I hardly think its air to say Tau only win because of outside conditions (in so much as this is true in all battles). Prefectia and Agrellan were won not because anyone was infighting or drawn away, nor Grog's Waaagh! or other examples.

My personal feelings on the story: Clearly far more ambiguous than Sanctus Reach or Shield of Baal. Because the Imperium loses Mont'ka's battle it is not written as a straight win for the Tau, the book calls it a defeat for the Tau actually, but at the same time it can't be denied that the Tau did defeat Taskforce Retribution (including an armoured clash described as one of the greatest in the history of the entire Imperium) and also maintained every planet they took whilst at the same time the Imperium is disbanding Taskforce Retribution to send it to other parts of the galaxy (that's the enormous Taskforce built up at the end of Kauyon). The Tau win the battle but, at best, its a pyrrhic victory of sorts for them. I'm even inclined to agree with the book itself when it calls it a defeat for the Tau.

It is nice to have the Guard perform so well, with Farsight even considering Starzkhan a worthy adversary. In many ways the Guardsmen do far better than the Marines have been doing for a while now; particularly Ko'sarro who clearly needs to take a break because Shadowsun is working him into an apoplexy. However part of the success here is definitely the clever use of combined arms tactics. The Space Marines are employed as they should be to launch pinpoint rapid strikes at installations of importance whereas the Guard lead the main battles with their firepower and numbers. Only the Skitarii really don't help much and that's because they don't want to. It is directly referenced that they often make things harder for their allies because of their complete lack of coordination with them. But since that's how the fluff in the Skitarii and Mechanicus Codex described them that's not a problem.

The introduction of some minor understanding of the technological equivalence between the two factions was also nice for clearing up some fluff confusion. Tau can jam Imperial communication networks and are explicitly said to have superior on the field communication, scanning and sensor technology. The Tau take advantage of this, and their weather control tech, to trap the Imperium in storms in which the Tau can see and communicate relatively easy but the Imperium forces begin to lose cohesion and the ability to see or target their foes. The introduction of Shield Generators which can survive orbital bombardments and Exterminatus-like attacks also gives the Tau a more major defence then simply having to rely on fleet action. That being said the book's implication that the expeditionary force's fleet could, if gathered fully, chase off Taskforce Retribution's fleet assets is also interesting and highlights how the Tau's tendency to stretch and divide their fleet and not be able to pull it back into a single unit rapidly is their biggest disadvantage against the Imperium's fleet. No doubt this is why the Tau invest so heavily into Planetary Shielding and Defences. So I did like some actual thought going into the conflict.

However, for me, even it being a defeat for the Tau, its still an enormously indicative conflict. The Tau are at an enormous disadvantage against the Imperium; their manpower is infinitesimal, their resources minute, their experience tiny and yet despite the vast difference in capability and power the Tau have shown that they can stand their ground against what Kauyon itself describes as a concerted and major Imperial effort to destroy them. Said stand is achieved with only half of the army they had on the other side of the Damocles Gulf, although we cannot ignore reinforcements from the Farsight Enclaves, and virtually no fleet support. Its an amazing display of temerity and stubbornness on the Tau's behalf, worthy of the Imperium.

It is a small change on a galactic scale, tiny change, but it shows that the unique capability of the Tau is that they punch far above what they should be able to. The reason they get a codex is because, despite simply being a minor Xenos Empire, they can achieve things and fight wars which seem far above and beyond their level. The biggest change has been the growth of the Tau. Consider that the last time a Crusade was sent after them it liberate several planets and drove them all the way back to Dal'yth. This time, when an even greater force is sent, it grinds to a halt on the very first planet it attacks. There is an appreciable difference there which again illuminates that the primary danger of the Tau is actually their rapid rate of growth. Their power, compared to other galactic players, increases dramatically. It would be in the Imperium's best interests to overcompensate and crush them now, before they get a chance to grow again, but the tragedy of the Imperium's situation is that they simply cannot afford to. Even though they know that the Tau if left unchecked can quickly become an existential threat they do not have the luxury of curbing it because now the window where such a extermination can be achieved without sacrificing victory against Tyranids, Orks or Chaos has closed. The Imperium now is in a horrible Aporia.

And that highlights the tragic irony of it to me. There is a reason the White Dwarf teasing Mont'ka itself states that if the Tau and Imperium could simply learn to cooperate they could achieve great things. But because they are locked in as enemies rather then progress, peace and cooperation against threats like Chaos/Orks/Nids we simply have yet another war and yet another looming threat on the horizon. I love that, reinforces the tragic irony of the Imperium I love.

Anyway that last section is simply by personal evaluation of the entire Narrative Supplement. My overall rating would be that I enjoyed it more than Sanctus Reach (although Sanctus Reach had better writing I feel) but I feel Shield of Baal was probably better. Still I will say that simply having a Xenos race perform this well is something I'll applaud regardless, hopefully it is indicative of greater change and not simply of the Tau gaining Imperium-esque victories against the Imperium non-stop. But that last section is all my own opinion, none of it is necessarily true.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/29 06:33:32


 
   
Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight




I've read half the book, ending where farsightedness come in, and I'm quote satisfied. Only 13 or so on infantry regiments, 3 armored regiments with 3 (maybe more) super heavies, some skitarii, and a couple companies of space marines made it clear right before farsight came in, that the Imperium beat the Tau Empire. It's the enclaves they lost to (with support from the loyalist Tau) so far the biggest attack on the Tau to date, and apperantly only around like 20 ish combined regiments (infantry, armored, etc..) were about to take secure Agrellan prime.

I'm pretty satisfied with the book so far, but I've only read one excerpt where regular guardsmen were anything but canon fodder, I kinda hoped they had more to the story rather than dying, but it makes sense for a horde type of army xD it's odd though, with the amount of casualties suffered on both sides, ( the intro doesn't show the Tau's fighting force but I think half of them are on prefect is? ) it really seemed like the IG brought more than just 13 infantry regiments and 3 armored regiments :s those numbers might be wrong but they're the only ones I can remember right now so I'll edit it when I get a chance.

Oh and to whom it was who translated all those relics from German to English: I salute you!I had a chance to prepare my army earlier than I should have thanks to you.

Edit: according to the Task Force Organization, there were only 18 infantry regiments, 6 armored regiments, 2 artillery regiments and a bunch more. Is that a large force? I'm asking genuinely because I know on the table top, the guard play usually at company level strength, and a regiment consists of, though it varies greatly, typically has around like 6 to 8 companies I'd assume, which seems likes quite a lot, but not THAT much. Atleast to me it doesn't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/29 06:10:07


123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





Remember that the section on 'Taskforce Retribution' begins with the disclaimer right beneath it that; "Due to the scope of the disparate Astra Militarum regiments and war fleets that were assembled as part of Taskforce Retribution, the following diagram is not a comprehensive list of forces, but rather the leadership structure to which the Imperial troops answered." So that's not a comprehensive list of forces precisely because the book says its too big and disparate a force to have a comprehensive list of forces for. It should also be kept in mind that Shadowsun is explicitly stated to have been capable of scattering the Major Attack were she not hesitant to commit her full forces just before Blackfossil Ridge because she feared that such a commitment might leave Aun'va undefended. The conflict is largely a very closely fought back-and-forth between Shadowsun and Starzkhan until the end.

However, as a personal note, I rarely bother to use force lists provided in any book to calculate anything. Different writers, at different times, do simply have different conceptions of the scope of things involved and, thus, like much in 40k such instances can often become contradictory. Hence I prefer to simply see the emphasis placed upon the importance of the conflict. I've too often found that a comparison of forces from different books and materials can seem glaringly different or outright change.

As for the cannon fodder thing, true, most of the focus is on Starzkhan being a competent commander. In fact part of what they focus on is the Guard's willingness to trade immense life because they can absorb the losses. I can understand wanting more personal focus on the Guard, I suppose as a person who's never played the Guard I didn't think of that and only focused on the commander's competency, so that I can imagine is a let down to a reader who was hoping for a much more impressive feat from the guard. It is also a bit of a pity...hopefully the Astra Militarum will get a Narrative Supplement focused on it eventually then where more focus can be put on individual action.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/29 06:37:01


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






123ply wrote:
Edit: according to the Task Force Organization, there were only 18 infantry regiments, 6 armored regiments, 2 artillery regiments and a bunch more. Is that a large force?


Not really. It's about 2-3x as many regiments as the IG deployed to Taros to fight the Tau, and Taros was a minor border skirmish for both sides. I think this is another case of GW having no sense of scale.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight




 Anemone wrote:
Remember that the section on 'Taskforce Retribution' begins with the disclaimer right beneath it that; "Due to the scope of the disparate Astra Militarum regiments and war fleets that were assembled as part of Taskforce Retribution, the following diagram is not a comprehensive list of forces, but rather the leadership structure to which the Imperial troops answered." So that's not a comprehensive list of forces precisely because the book says its too big and disparate a force to have a comprehensive list of forces for. It should also be kept in mind that Shadowsun is explicitly stated to have been capable of scattering the Major Attack were she not hesitant to commit her full forces just before Blackfossil Ridge because she feared that such a commitment might leave Aun'va undefended. The conflict is largely a very closely fought back-and-forth between Shadowsun and Starzkhan until the end.

However, as a personal note, I rarely bother to use force lists provided in any book to calculate anything. Different writers, at different times, do simply have different conceptions of the scope of things involved and, thus, like much in 40k such instances can often become contradictory. Hence I prefer to simply see the emphasis placed upon the importance of the conflict. I've too often found that a comparison of forces from different books and materials can seem glaringly different or outright change.

As for the cannon fodder thing, true, most of the focus is on Starzkhan being a competent commander. In fact part of what they focus on is the Guard's willingness to trade immense life because they can absorb the losses. I can understand wanting more personal focus on the Guard, I suppose as a person who's never played the Guard I didn't think of that and only focused on the commander's competency, so that I can imagine is a let down to a reader who was hoping for a much more impressive feat from the guard. It is also a bit of a pity...hopefully the Astra Militarum will get a Narrative Supplement focused on it eventually then where more focus can be put on individual action.


You're right, I skipped over that part when I re-read the chart, and as for Imperial guardsmen being nothing but cannon fodder who die in droves by the millions, I know they have a part to play, and I know they are largely the most essential part of a human army so I know that they do have their moments of heroism, but I have yet to really see it come out in any narrative against the Tau. Maybe the Tau are just the counter to the Imperial Guard, as oddly enough, I see a lot more mention of anything Imperial kicking Eldar ass than I ever do Tau. I just finished the book now, and kind of like Shield of Baal, the Guard's "warlord" is quite competent, but unlike shield of Baal, I don't remember a single fire warrior being killed by a las-bolt, but yet millions of men die every page lol.

And yes, it's weird though cause I remember a WD saying that Pask abs Longstrike encounter each other three times, when they only do twice :s and IMHO I think Pask is a better tank ace. Hes an ace because he operates his tanks with instinctive skill, and while so does Longstrike in a way, he also relies on his pilot suit, his Hammerhead's warning systems and etc

you're right again about it being very ambiguous, it was almost as if the narrative was switching perspective between the Imperium, and the Empire's which I think is possible considering both sides consider themselves defeated, kind of like what you said- the Task force was sent just to kill Tau and that was it, but they didn't kill them all and there for they failed. Meanwhile, the Tau underestimated the IoM, just like how the IoM underestimated the Tau, and the Tau lost their supreme Ethereal, cut them off from leaving the shielded city for the most part, and Shadowsun suffered a wound which somewhere near the end implies that the assassin's poisoned blade is still affecting her

It's actually crazy how different a character can be from different author's PoVs. In one story we got Shadowsun getting beaten up by an imperial colonial, in Mont'ka we got her trading blows with a callidus member.

Overall I enjoyed it, but some parts were lacking content. The Obsidian knight didn't seem to do much at all in this book, and the second time the skitarii engages the Tau, it describes how they're about to fight, then we never hear about them again. Same with the valkaries that were apperantly under the main colonials regiment and Amy mention of him fighting the Tau when they fell back After Farsight ' surprise. Also, tempestus scions? still really liked the back and girth action though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And another question : a website (forget if lexi or the wikia) states that a cadre is comparable to a company, but I didn't really understand what they ment. To me it seems like, in a 1500-2000 point game, the IG army would be at a single company level in terms.of size depending on how fluffy the army is compared to a Tau aemy which would consist of like 2 hunter cadres and maybe other ones, so anyone know how they compare?
I'm lookin' at you, Anemone ;-)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/29 10:24:51


123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





@123ply: As I said I can imagine, with that in mind, that it can be a little disappointing. If you want heroic moments against Tau by Guard you're probably best off reading about when the Last Chancer's killed Brightsword and the Fire Caste novel. As for the Eldar, to be fair, the Eldar are disproportionately beat up by everything in the fluff sadly.

The WD did...over dramatize more than a little. It mentioned the Tau having an unhealthy interest in Imperium Warp Technology...but literally nothing concerning that even appears in the book. As for Pask and Longstrike, dunno, I don't think there is necessarily a best. They're both just very good and, depending on myriad conditions, who would get the better of who can be different depending on the battlefield and conditions. Then again I don't feel there has to always, in combat, be an absolute best.

To be fair that book does say the Tau lost. But again, as I said, it depends on what one considers the goals of the operation. The Tau have displayed that in a very short period of time their power relative the Imperium has grown considerably, comparing this to the first Damocles Crusade.

But as for the difference in author's, yes, this is what I mean when I say its tough to impossible to have rigorously consistent fluff in 40k. Depending on author and what GW needs things can simply change and play out radically different to how they did or have in the past.

As I said I believe the writing was far from great, though I preferred it to Damnos, and Mont'ka I personally felt was lacking compared to Kauyon. Particularly though I think the problem was I expected more from Mont'ka because of how it was built up and then I ended up feeling like Kauyon was superior. But there was certainly a paucity of details at time.

As an honest confession I think I dislike the Obsidian Knight even more than I dislike Aun'va. Literally the Obsidian Knight seems to be able to do more than entire Imperial Guard Armies or Knight Houses. That irritated me a bit. But it's just a small pet peeve is all.

Overall though I can understand the dislike it gets, as I've said, I don't mind it so much simply because its the best I've read a Xenos do in a major engagement against the Imperium in forever. I just hope its indicative of an overall change and not just that the Tau will, like the Imperium, receive disproportionate victories.
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

I've been comparing the Imperium lighting a nebula ablaze to setting a bag of dog excrement on fire and leaving it on your neighbor's front porch.

It's a great big middle finger to the Tau. ESPECIALLY as it's hinted that the weapon which was used might have not only created these hazardous conditions, but weakened the boundaries of real-space.

Woo, creating a new Maelstrom?
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





How much you wanna bet we're getting warp drives next time.

It's an unresolved plot point from Kauyon that our scientists are researching them. What big advancement of Tau fluff could they do for our next update x IRL years down the line? 4th sphere + warp drive. A new Warzone Ultramar: Kauyon.


This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2015/11/29 14:20:13


 
   
Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight




 Gamgee wrote:
How much you wanna bet we're getting warp drives next time.

It's an unresolved plot point from Kauyon that our scientists are researching them. What big advancement of Tau fluff could they do for our next update x IRL years down the line? 4th sphere + warp drive. A new Warzone Ultramar: Kauyon.




I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Gamgee wrote:
How much you wanna bet we're getting warp drives next time.

It's an unresolved plot point from Kauyon that our scientists are researching them. What big advancement of Tau fluff could they do for our next update x IRL years down the line? 4th sphere + warp drive. A new Warzone Ultramar: Kauyon.


Serious question, what is with you and filling every bloody post with a Youtube embed?

Every post doesn't need some kind of youtube "soundtrack". I would say none of your posts require them.
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

123ply wrote:


I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.

Well...

Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in ca
Storm Trooper with Maglight




 Co'tor Shas wrote:
123ply wrote:


I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.

Well...

Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.


And I really hope they don't get to that level, because of all the numbers, armour, and firepower have, it'd the Navy's ability to warp jump entire armadas that put their fleet above the Tau. I know that the Tau don't have any understanding of it. There is a Farsight relic which gives "Deny the Witch" rolls, and apperantly the Enclaves use it because they know it protects them from psychics, but they have no idea at all how it works. And there is only one. Considering the fact that The Enclaves are trying to unlock the secrets of warp jumping tech more than the Empire, and they don't know how that relic works, it would be absurd if the Tau Empire were to ever be able to make Warp jumps in space.

123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.

Collection:
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

123ply wrote:
 Co'tor Shas wrote:
123ply wrote:


I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.

Well...

Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.


And I really hope they don't get to that level, because of all the numbers, armour, and firepower have, it'd the Navy's ability to warp jump entire armadas that put their fleet above the Tau. I know that the Tau don't have any understanding of it. There is a Farsight relic which gives "Deny the Witch" rolls, and apperantly the Enclaves use it because they know it protects them from psychics, but they have no idea at all how it works. And there is only one. Considering the fact that The Enclaves are trying to unlock the secrets of warp jumping tech more than the Empire, and they don't know how that relic works, it would be absurd if the Tau Empire were to ever be able to make Warp jumps in space.


Oh, they are so far away from that, it isn't even a factor. They have their short-range, slow jumps, and that's probably where they'll remain unless GW wants an excuse to advance the plot.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




I'm surprised at some of the hate towards the Obsidian Knight.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in de
Water-Caste Negotiator





They dont have to get the warp travvel tech of the IoM. they simply could improve their already existing FTL drives. Make them jumping faster at a higher frequence and you travel faster. thats it. would giv Tau a greater reach and still limits them somehow.
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
123ply wrote:


I can almost guarantee that GW wouldn't remove the Imperium 's only technological advantage over the Tau. Plus the Tau don't understand the warp. They just can comprehend it.

Well...

Purely technologically, tau and human drives are about even, but the problem is that tau have no psykers, and can't do the full submersion dives that the imperium does. It's a problem of psycic power, not technology, which isn't going to change anytime soon. What tau will probably try to do it something like the necron inertialess drives, but they are nowhere close to that technologically.


Which actually makes no sense as the Tau Empire has various subject races that are powerful psykers - I think part of the problem is that the Tau can not get to grips with the sheer otherness of the Warp. Plus the ships that were observing the Warp "Disapeared".

I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws





Just.... read the red text.
Gamgee wrote:If you know anything about space is that Nebula can be very valuable places. It's not outside the realm of possibility there were worlds in there (even if its a rogue planet). If not inhabitable than certainly resource rich.
We don't know how old or how young the nebula is; therefore, we know not whether or not there were planets/stars in it. Regardless, this is a scorched earth policy; a tried and true method of exhausting enemy supply lines, delaying the enemy, and annoying the enemy to death (see: Napoleon's invasion of Russia, Hitler's invasion of Russia). Regardless of whether or not there was life in that nebula, the Imperium denied the Tau any potential allies within it, as well as any potential mineral resources.
Nope that one action tells me everything I need to know about the Adeptus Mechanicus. The Tyranids are monsters that don't know what they do. The IoM most certainly had an idea of what they were doing. They posses the will and possibly use the ability to MAD any region of space if they felt like it.
Fixed that foh yah. You see, the Adeptus Mechanicus is not actually part of the Imperium of Man; it is a partner Empire, whose goals and beliefs align with those of the Imperium (which isn't even a single faction; it's a collection of factions, but I digress). The AdMech were the only ones with the will and cold logic to acknowledge that those soldiers on the planet were expendable, and that the Tau needed to be sufficiently slowed to allow nearby worlds to fortify and raise more Regiments of Imperial Guard. This is, again, a Scorched Earth Tactic, which has proven itself effective time and again in wars throughout history. If I were in command, I would likely have made a similar decision (though I sure as hell would have evacuated more than 4 hours' worth of troops, but hey, I've got my squishy mortal morality kicking in here; the AdMech has no such inhibition).
They are the most evil race in the galaxy. Tyranids don't have morals. Even the Dark Eldar need lives and resources to exist. Even the Necrons want to try become biological again and need bodies. Even the Tyranids need to eat something. But the IoM? They're content burning down the boat with everyone in it. The IoM with this one act is saying it if it can't exist it will do its best to make sure nothing exists when it goes. Which is insanity.

Also they're out of reinforcements and we can still pass through it mostly unharmed.
No, actually, they are not content to "burn down the boat with everyone in it". The Imperium of Man does what it has to to survive. During the Age of Strife, Xenos Empires enslaved or exterminated countless bastions of humanity. During the Horus Heresy, all attempts at diplomacy ended in war due to the Xenos' provocations (see: Fulgrim,Horus Rising), which is what lead to the whole "suffer not the Xenos to live" policy. DAoT Humanity made extensive use of diplomacy, and many worlds had alien allies. What did they get for that? Pain and suffering in their moment of weakness.

Also, you're forgetting Rogue Traders and the Inquisition (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you know next to nothing of the IoM). Both are responsible for analyzing Xenos Pocket Empires, managing diplomacy with them, and determining whether or not said Empire will become a major threat in the future (in which case, they throw together a Crusade to destroy it). Had the Tau not suddenly left a Warp Storm as an emergent Empire with solid tech and allies, the IoM likely would have destroyed the Tau just as soon as its expansionist policies became apparent. However, the IoM leaves Xenos alone, so long as the Xenos aren't a threat to any nearby Imperial Worlds (same thing with non-Imperial Worlds) (see: Codex: Inquisition, Rogue Traders)


I said the Imperium needs to be destroyed. If there are any smart humans that join us I'll give them their fair chance. It's what makes us thousands of times more reasonable than the IoM. I can now point to this one act any time I see some dumb idiot beat the "Tau have some evil tones too" drum. Yeah Tau do some shady things to keep it all running efficiently, but nothing on this scale.


Gamgee wrote:All of them need life exist. They do horrible things to it, but its life. The IoM wants it to all burn if they're about to lose. That is something so stupid and short sighted I'm sure every other faction is a little concerned at least to the potential for the IoM to cut off and deny them all their food sources.

The IoM is the most evil faction now.
you - you do realize that that nebula was a miniscule speck in comparison to the Galaxy at large? That sort of loss of life is nothing; it preserves ten times the Space that was ravaged.
This crusade is considered larger than the Damocles crusade by a decent margin. 99.999...% loss of all IoM forces due to the use of this super weapon. They evacuated valuable officers and anyone plot important and then fired the weapon. The book says it would need three weeks to evacuate and he only had four hours to get as much off the planet as possible. You lost and it wasn't even the entirety of the Tau military force. It was half with almost zero space support and no reinforcements of any kind arriving.
I love how the Tau lost half their ground forces, and you still expect them to keep expanding after such a horrendous loss (against not even 1% of the Imperial Ground Forces)
There will be a reckoning for the IoM. Or at least the Adeptus Mechanicus. There is a Forgeworld quite near our borders I see.
[color=red] Which will likely be defended by the best technology in the Imperium (which is saying a lot), Legions of Skitarii, Several Titan Legions, multiple Knight Houses, Several Companies of Space Marines, Several Regiments of Imperial Guard, and who knows what else. If the Tau can take a Forge World, then its gg Imperium, becaue they will have reality-bending powers.


Gamgee wrote:
 godardc wrote:
Destroying something/ some ressources my enemy stole my, even and especially that big, is typically something I think I'll be likely to do, if I were a commander in a great war.
You must hate me so so much^^
Better send it to oblivion than to let it to my enemy.

Every sacrifice for Victory, when defeat means total annihilation.
Even the sacrifice of his own soul !


Quiet disppointed by the outcomes, not so many changes in the lore/the fluff, in the end, I think.
The more things change, the less is change, I guess...

Defeat doesn't mean total annihilation. We'll let humans live with us.

True, but, the Imperium teaches its people that defeat = annihilation, and not without good reason. Against Dark Eldar, Tyranids, Eldar, Orks, Rak'gol, Laer, and virtually every Xenos foe encountered with sufficient strength to trump the Imperium, even temporarily, defeat does equal annihilation. Then the Tau come along and throw a wrench in the works.

To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
 Tactical_Spam wrote:
There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.

We must all join the Kroot-startes... 
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





@Slayer-Fan123: I'm surprised at the hate towards non-human life. Saddened by it really. But, to be clear, I don't 'hate' the Obsidian Knight I just find him and Aun'va irritating for different reason. Aun'va for seemingly having been a caricature and the Obsidian Knight for achieving such incredibly feats on his own, consistently, that he invalidates entire Imperial Armies and Knight Houses. Additionally because I have no idea, like Primarchs, what can actually 'hurt' him. He can take volleys of fire, sustained for hours, which just earlier were described as ripping apart Imperial Knights with seemingly no ill-effect at all or even miniscule risk to his structural integrity, he can hold a front of a Tau army which is pounding enormous Guard, Skitarii and Imperial Guard forces by himself and seemingly no attempt to kill him even phases him. If I have no idea what can or cannot 'threaten' a character I'm rarely invested in them. For example Shadowsun can die to a Space Marine Captain or Callidus Assassin, she suffers injuries which put her out of commission for lengthy periods and we're told would have killed her if not for the bravery of the subordinates. The Obsidian Knight, on the other hand, can seemingly be attacked by the entire Tau Army (which was defeating multiple Chapters, Skitarii and an enormous Guard Army) and there is not even tension about the outcome. That being said, again, I don't 'hate' the Obsidian Knight, that's too strong a word, I just find its role and execution in the plot noisome. There are many such things, the Obsidian Knight is simply one example, largely because I have no sensation of tension or risk when it is involved.

@dusara127: I think that is perhaps an...overly charitable description of the Imperium's historical relations of alien races compared to, say, the historical relations of certain other alien races (and human groups) within the setting to each other. Just in case I'll respond but...I'm not certain if it was hyperbole or not so I'll rather just make clear my confusion at the outset in case it helps us.

The Imperium wiped out the Diasporex with no provocation or attempt at negotiation beyond offering the Human members of the Diasporex a chance to leave before they kill everyone. The last words of the final Diasporex Captain are literally; "We just wanted to be left alone,". Bel Haloth killed an entire planet of humans, billions strong, because they had largely been protected from Old Night and thus still had advanced machines helping them. They weren't violent, didn't fight anyone and never posed a threat to the Imperium but the Marines executed every last citizen on the world. Attempting to defend the Imperium as being justified in wiping out every single non-human (or not human enough) group it encounters is probably the one thing I simply cannot swallow. The Tau don't practise this policy and have they all died because they don't genocide every non-Tau (or Tau enough) group they encounter? There are many alien races which mankind killed for no reason; Tarellians and the Diasporex to name but a few. Indeed we know also from the Tau backstory that the Imperium regularly kills off the native populations of planets even if they pose no threat to them simply because they want the world. It is false to say the Imperium would have 'left the Tau alone till their expansionistic policies became clear' because the very backstory of the Tau species is how the Imperium intended to wipe out all the primitive Tau (who posed no threat to them whatsoever at that point) simply to take their planet. This is par for the course, the Imperium wipes out any alien race it can which is on a planet it wants, it does not just react as if some perennial 'victim'. As if only the Imperium is a 'victim' within the setting and not innumerable other races which are victims too. Every case of Diplomacy did not fail. Before Fulgrim's attempt to talk to Eldrad and Horus' talk with the Interex their men make clear in the books that talking to aliens is considered against protocol and immediate annihilation is standard procedure. Horus argues that the Imperium can now afford to negotiate because it has a position of strength and then Erebus ruins things, Fulgrim argues that the creators of such beautiful planets as the Maiden Worlds are worth listening to and then Slaanesh ruins it. The Imperium never tried democracy with the inhabitants of the World Bel Haloth wiped out, with the Diasporex, with the Keykelids and innumerable other groups. The only reason the Laer were going to be potentially offered vassal status was because they were considered dangerous enough to perhaps warrant it. Additionally the IoM leaves Xenos alone only so long as they do not have the capabilities to destroy them. Ideally the IoM, has explicated multiple times, wishes all Alien life dead. Only practical concerns stay their hands. If they have the capability to realistically wiped out an alien race they do so. When the Macharian Crusade encountered the species known only as the 'Tentacled Beasts' an emissary made contact with them and found them to be an advanced and friendly species. Senjanus, general under Macharius leading that part of the Crusade, then did his job and dropped a bomb to annihilate the species. Thankfully, for once, the genocide of countless innocents was prevented because the species had advanced field technology which stopped the bomb and the Crusade force fled.

Attempts to argue that the Imperium is 'justified' in wiping out all life which doesn't conform to their ideology and belief is unbelievable. If that were the case the Tau, a confederation of more than 11 races now, should not be an efficient quickly growing hegemon but a devastated wasteland. From comments made before contacting Eldrad, the Interex and the Diasporex it is made clear that the Imperium, as protocol, even in the Great Crusade operated under the logic of wiping out any non-human (or human enough) group down to the last innocent woman, man and child. The Tau have been attacked by Tyranid and Orks too, are they now justified in genociding any species they meet because they two who will always try to kill them? Thankfully the Tau don't think like that and hence we have the Jia'trix, Demiurg, Greet, Nagi, Kroot and many more as direct evidence that cooperation and coexistence is clearly possible amongst the alien species' of the universe.

Eldar don't always annihilate their enemies. For example their is the Biel-tan Autarch who helped resettle colonists on to a moon and promised to protect and help them so long as they do not settle the Maiden World the moon orbited. The Diasporex do not annihilate their enemies yet they were still wiped out. The Kroot don't. The Tentacled Beasts didn't. The Tau don't. The Jia'trix don't. The Tarellians didn't. The Keylikids didn't. These races exist in the same universe as the Imperium of Man. Yet they don't practise the same policy. Now that the Asurmen Book is out we know that even at its height the Eldar Empire didn't believe in exterminating other races. Asurmen, in his flashbacks, explains that the Eldar simply allowed other races to develop as they wanted with some Eldar choosing to specifically live with these races and experience what their lives were like (since the Eldar of the time were as we all know obsessed with experience).

Every race which has encountered Orks has suffered. Every race which has encountered Tyranids has suffered. Every race which has encountered Dark Eldar has suffered. Yet despite this races such as the Tau, Tentacled Beasts, Diasporex and Greet to name a few can cooperate, can coexist and choose not to simply kill all other races and beings they encounter. The Imperium's xenophobia is not some justified construct which they would die without, otherwise there should be no Tau Empire, be no Necron Dynasties (since they accept Alien Empires as vassals) or even the Eldar Empire at its height should not of existed. Knowing to confront and fight a race like the Orks or the Nids does not require that all other life be killed. That was an ideological choice of the Emperor and his subjects, not a necessary characteristic. The latest White Dwarf itself makes clear that the Imperium will, and wants to, kill every alien in the galaxy. Only practical concerns stall them, if they gain the capability to wipe out an alien race they will do so. The Great Crusade no doubt wiped out more unique, diverse and potential forms of life than any other event in the history of the Warhammer 40k universe. Those futures, those potentials (both good and ill) can now never exist or be know. Even though in many cases, as the Diasporex Captain said, they simply wanted to be left alone.

That is why there is a compelling, a resonant, aspect in a Tau novel which no Imperium novel can ever have. The Fire Warrior Novelization is a good example. In it Kais at one point injures a Guadsman who then can't fight back. As a result Kais doesn't kill him because he is no longer a threat and Kais feels to kill him now would be immoral. However the man keeps screaming and attracting attention, Kais begins to beg him to stop, but in the end to save his own life kills the man. That's a wonderfully compelling moral quandary and moral compromise. Its all the more resonant and powerful for being something which real people in the real world struggle with daily. I can't call if Kais is right or not, this is something being debated even today amongst the philosophers of the world, but it is an intriguing look into what soldiers must face. It is all the more powerful because for Kais, and the Tau and many other races, there is a moral onus to not kill or harm even other races, to spare them pain when possible.

But in an Imperial story that cannot ever happen. If a Guardsman comes across a Tau, even a civilian, there is only two alternatives. Overwhelmingly, the first, is death. The Imperium does not take Xenos prisoners. When a Guardsman finds a Tau woman, a shop clerk, pregnant he bayonets her in the womb, he melts her head, he kills her for existing. A Space Marine would most likely not expend the ammunition of a Bolt Shell, he has no need to and it would be inefficient, and simply stomps a Power Armoured Boot through the innocent woman, mashing the unborn child into a paste whilst the mother-to-never-be simply gapes her last few moments away. Far more unlikely, and worse, she might be taken for dissection. Watch as they vivisect her, tear her living child from her womb and before her eyes mutilate and shred it to learn how to kill it better as she is tortured to death.

No. The Imperium is not justified in its attitude towards all Xenos life nor is it necessary. That is a choice the Imperium makes and which the Tau Empire, and the Asurmen book Eldar Empire, make clear is not a necessary fact. The Imperium, and the Emperor, choose that. Having seen what 'othering' in the name of self-defence and national survival does in the real world, and knowing that it is a million times worse in the Imperium, I definitely will not, cannot, agree that the Imperium's treatment of Xenos is justified or necessary and will dispute that. When I play a 40k faction I do not do so thinking I am 'in the right' or doing 'moral good' I simply enjoy playing with my toys and their rules. I hope no-one truly believes their is a 'morally good' government in Warhammer 40k. People, yes, on all sides. But no government. I would never justify the Imperium's existence as I would never justify the Ork's right to endless bloodshed or the Eldar's right to dominion, or the Tau's right to annexation and on and on. It would be far better to change, as would all the hegemons of the galaxy.

Apologies for the lengthy response, particularly since I know it is once again grossly off-topic, but this is sadly one topic on which I do not wish to keep quiet even at my own expense. But I do apologize sincerely to all.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2015/11/30 11:03:42


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






 Anemone wrote:
If that were the case the Tau, a confederation of more than 11 races now, should not be an efficient quickly growing hegemon but a devastated wasteland.


There is no Tau confederation. The Tau rule the Tau. Everyone else is a willing dependant at best, a slave at worst.
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





Very well we shall focus on this one point and ignore the rest then I suppose;

1) Where is it ever said Kroot are slaves? Gue'vesa are slaves? Please point me to this canonical reference. I have read numerous novels and Kroot have always, happily, expressed their relationship with the Tau in novels (such as Commander Shadow) as being one of, in their own words, 'friendship' and 'mutual cooperation' to the point where the Kroot species has taken the collective decision that along with chaos infected substances the only other life forms one is proscribed from eating is the Tau. In the Damocles Anthology we have an interesting short story in which we follow the perspective of a Gue'vesa Auxiliary and it is clear he is not a slave. Clearly inferior to, say, a Fire Caste Shas'o in treatment but to call him a slave would fail the objective definition of a slave by far. Show me a canonical source of a alien member of the Tau Empire being treated as a slave according to the objective definition of Slave. As for dependant? Sure, I'll agree to that, as I said the Tau Empire has many of its own faults. But what's your point? The Imperium treats numerous beings like slaves and dependants. The Imperium doesn't even treat Aliens as dependants it simply kills them. At the very least the Tau don't do that. Besides, as demonstrated by Kroot and Gue'vesa in the novels life as a dependant of the Tau is still a far more liberal and multicultural existence than anywhere else in the galaxy at current.

2) Now, as I stated above, I disagree completely with your characterization of the dichotomy beneath Tau rule. However even if we accept your grossly overstated characterization of it the core point would still not change. Life as a willing dependant of the Tau Empire is far preferable to all Aliens and many Humans to life beneath the Imperium. Aliens cannot become dependants or slaves of the Imperium because they will be killed. Thus there is an obvious objective preference even if we accept your characterization of the Tau. Which, I reiterate, I do not or see canonical support for.
   
Made in us
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Gathering the Informations.

Did you read Mont'ka?

The Tau displace the population of Agrellan to work elsewhere in the Empire, and it's hinted that they do NOT go willingly.
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





Well at least this seems to be the only point under contestation;

1) As already acknowledged the Tau do treat individuals unwilling to cooperate by putting them into labour camps. However we have also been told the conditions of said camps in prior fluff. Said conditions include being fed, not being regularly beat, not being turned into Servitors and not being experimented on. By contrast the human population of many worlds in the Imperium are regularly beat to death, starved, experimented on or turned into Servitors. The Alien population of world's conquered by the Imperium are all killed. Again this point does not then change any of the aforementioned core points or the issue concerning Slavery or Dependency since it effects only those who are unwilling to cooperate and not all aliens (as does the Imperium's universal xenocide) or most humans.

2) It is hinted not all go willingly. This has been addressed already. It is also made clear in the Damocles anthology that many on Agrellan don't mind and prefer the Tau administration of the world.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






I'm not engaging your argument about the Tau being better than IoM because vivisected children and nasty Space Marines infantipaste recipes. I'm clarifying your misconception. The Tau Empire is not a confederation. No race except the Tau has any say in what the Empire does.

As for slavery, the Tau method might not meet the classical definition of chattel slavery, but this isn't about individuals, it's about whole species. The Tau are employing classic neocolonialism on a galactic scale. Remind me what do Tau do to species that refuse to join the Greater Good? Or ones that want to leave the Empire?
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut





 Kanluwen wrote:
Did you read Mont'ka?

The Tau displace the population of Agrellan to work elsewhere in the Empire, and it's hinted that they do NOT go willingly.

I read it and it's not even slightly hinted they went unwillingly.
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





The confusion then arises from my use of the word 'confederation' in the earlier post. I didn't mean it as in its usage referring to a political body, as you are saying, but as in the verb that a group of species are cooperating or 'acting as confederates' together. If that is the case then I understand what you mean.

Yes, that's correct, the Tau Empire's political structure is not that of a Confederation.

However no race but the Tau having a say is to complex for me to necessarily agree to. When decision emerge in the Damocles Anthology, in Skilltaker, about military engagements on Agrellan the Shas'O, a female, makes clear that the Gue'vesa should have authority to make decision because they know the Imperium better. If micro-decisions at different levels (such as Demiurg industrial output, Nicassar Merchant Fleet directions) are accepted as they are in some political discourse as amounting to an amalgamation which directs a polity then other races do definitely have an influence upon the Empire. This is not to dispute that the Tau have a disproportionate position, that's not being disputed, as I said the Tau do still have a superiority system in place within their own Empire. It is simply not as extreme as being suggested. Additionally in Commander Shadow the presence of Kroot troops, and in the Farsight Enclaves, occurs upon request it is revealed and not requisition. Unlike the Imperium the Tau cannot requisition the Kroot to come when they want or where they want. Instead in both fluff sources the Kroot are described as answering Tau requests for aide and in Commander Shadow we even see the Tau thanking the Shaper for his willingness to answer their request for aide.

The Tau don't enslave. That's not to say what they do to the absorbed species is right, not at all, simply that is definitely better than slavery or mass genocide. But, again, the Tau are not 'good' or 'nice'. As I said earlier there is no 'moral' government in 40k. That's a point I've already made.

As for what happens to those that are unwilling to join the Empire, as in the case of the Arachen, we are definitively told that the Arachen are not genocided. However, again, that does not make Tau treatment of the Arachen right. The Tau had no right to chase the Arachen out of the veil. The Tau were wrong. However, again, I never made the point 'the Tau are good' I made the point that the Imperium's position on aliens is not justifiable or necessary.

EDIT: Regardless here I am, again, ugh. If someone really wishes to have this conversation with me I will be more than happy to oblige in PM's. However I'd prefer, again, to not, again, derail this thread, again. I feel guilty enough for the number of times I've had to do this.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/30 14:33:16


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Of course the treatment of aliens by the IoM is justifiable, if only by nature of efficiency. IoM deals with hundreds of thousands of alien cultures, on a completely different scale compared to the Tau. To facilitate co-operation and assimilation of those species would weaken the internal structure of the Imperium and make it dependable on potentially fractious elements. We already know how badly the separation of the Throne and the Cult Mechanicus affects the operations of the whole human sphere. No one in their right mind would want to multiply that by a factor of thousands.

It's simply easier to remove the unknown factors and replace them with known ones - humans. It's not good or moral by our standards, but it's not mindless or pointless either.

As an aside, has there been a single instance where a subservient species refused a request from the Tau?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/30 14:40:33


 
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





1) The fact that the Imperium suffers from serious efficiency issues is the result of far more than the internal divisions within it. It is also the result of its bureaucratic, ideological and religious composition. The Imperium could first attempt to alter these before resorting to a system which destroys anything not conforming to it. Why select the option which requires mass xenocide instead of first altering and reforming internal positions and political/administrative/bureaucratic methods? The blame cannot be solely placed upon 'internal divisions' and then carte blanche say the only response is the death and destruction of all things which do not conform. Reforming internal structures to be more efficient, rational and not based upon feudal/noble/theocratic/dogmatic structures is as important a step as any other. Solving these could then permit cooperation and reduce need for genocide and xenocide thus xenocide is still not justified.

2) Humans are not 'known' factors. Indeed in 40k humans have often done more harm to humans than any alien race has (Chaos Space Marines/Horus Heresy) thus in many ways humans are potentially far more volatile and dangerous 'factors' than alien species such as the Tau, Diasporex, Greet and Tentacled Beasts and such.

3) When I argue 'unjustified' I am speaking in the tradition of rational ethical philosophy. Thus by justified I exactly mean moral (in a rational, ethical and Kantian sense). No argument is being made that it is 'mindless' or 'pointless' simply that it is not justifiable or necessary. As said the Eldar Empire (which lasted far longer and was far more advanced) than the Imperium did not exterminate or wipe out alien races on the principle that they were alien races. In the Asurmen book we are informed that they simply ignored other races. The Imperium need not incorporate other races it need merely not kill them simply for existing.

EDIT: Yes. In Commander Shadow a side effect of eating Catachans is that the Kroot who ate them inherit a streak of insubordination. As a humorous call-back to the beginning of the book we are told said Kroot are highly uncooperative with the Tau and that, as a continuation of a joke between the now deceased Catachan Commander and Commander Shadow, the Kroot Shaper has taken to using the derogatory nickname the Catachan Commander used to use for Commander Shadow and rarely complies with his requests.

EDIT 2: I apologize but I'm not sure if I can do this much more. If I fail to respond to someone or such please understand its not that I don't want to respond, don't have something to say or wish to belittle your statement by not responding I simply am under no illusions about the weakness of my constitution for such matters. This need not change anything, feel free to respond or PM or whatever, but lest I accidentally cause offence I thought I'd just put this disclaimer here in case.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/30 14:57:37


 
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut






Can we put away the moon made of cheese and let the pigs fly away?

IoM does not have the luxury of being able to just stop everything and reform itself, unless of course the Ork, Tau and Chaos take a millennium long vacation in another galaxy. Nor is the IoM the Eldar Empire, with its funky Webway, which accidentally made ignoring everything else in the galaxy rather easy and let the pointy ears play by entirely different set of rules.

IoM is a ponderous, half paralysed behemoth that relies on monolithic dogma for survival. It does not have the option of leaving potentially dangerous weak spots in its structure, be it physical or mental. Is it moral to spare a race at the risk of introducing another Lear into the Imperium and potentially destroying the entire human sphere?
   
Made in gb
Mighty Vampire Count






UK

The recent Horus Hersey series has that the "death to all Aliens" is a relic of the Emperor's initial crusade - one of the few elements that has survived relatively intact.

We also know that there are elements in the Imperium - especially in the Ordo Xenos that are willing to work with the Xenos in the short and/or long term.

However all within the Imperium are brought up to consider Aliens are exactly that: Alien, to be feared, reviled and destroyed.


I AM A MARINE PLAYER

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in cn
Angelic Adepta Sororitas





@His Master's Voice:
1) This is not actually a discussion about the Imperium reforming. That's not going to happen, its not part of the setting, so in no way is this a realistic discussion about the Imperium reforming because that's not part of the game.

2) This is simply about the Imperium not needing to prosecute absolute xenocide nor it being required for their continued survival. That position of the Imperium's is unjustifiable. No surprise since they, like everyone else, are still bad guys.

3) There is no reason to assume reformation=instant collapse simply because it gives a reason not to attempt it. Could said attempt cause trouble? Yes, like the prior point I made about the Tau's willingness to negotiate it comes with sacrifices. But it is still a worthwhile endeavour and, unlike what you say, that outcome is not a set face. It cannot be predicted for sure.

4) Again the Imperium destroys alien races it need not. The Diasporex or the attempt on the Tentacled Beasts. It need not incorporate said species. Why not simply leave them alone since they are doing nothing aggressive to you?

5) The Imperium can change. There is no reason to assume it is impossible for change to occur. Simply saying 'it cannot change then it will die' is not a definite fact. We do not see the attempt so we do not know. There is no reason not to think they can attempt to change.

6) It is moral to leave alive species which do not threaten you at a point in time, yes. By using the moral logic you are espousing at the end of your post we, as an individual, should kill all other individuals right now since, of course, it is fully within the realm of possibility (most likely a fact) that eventually someone else might or will give rise to, directly or indirectly, something that could hurt, harm or inconvenience us. If one is justified, or morally obligated, to wipe something out because of the fact that a potential threat might emerge from it in the future then we are required to wipe out anything which could potentially threaten us in the future and that would mean...we have to wipe out everything. Even ourselves by some rigorous applications of rational philosophy. Moreover, if we are talking deontology, we are simply justifying anyone wishing to eradicate us by the categorical imperative we are creating.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/30 15:44:25


 
   
 
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