It's unfortunate, really, how the Imperial lose like 90% of the battles they fight against the tau in the fluff. I have yet to read anything where a battlesuit doesn't completley wreck everything, never less even get damaged by anything Imperial.
Stupid question, since this month is a tau release and all, but who'd you guys think would win the new Damocles Campaign on Prefectia? And better yet, who do you think would win the Damocles Campaign in general?
I just hope that when the time comes for the IG updates that GW releases another Damocles book which features at least like Maybe even just ONE battle suit getting destroyed. Weather its comprehensible for GW that the tau can actually lose to the Imperial Guard is yet to be seen, but for the love of all that is fair and balanced In fluff, let's see the IoM finally beat the Tau for once, Shall we?
And BTW - I know about the Zeist campaign, Voltoris, the Kappa Mortis Incident, etc, but that is just a drop of wins in an ocean full of defeats... So yeah, who wins the Kayoun campaign, and who wins the second crusade?
My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
The Tau win, because that's the whole point of the setting. The Imperium can never win, they can at best hope to delay their inevitable defeat and the extinction of humanity. Even when they do win a battle here and there they still lose the war. So even if the Imperium "wins" the new campaign, it will only be at the cost of the Tau conquering planets elsewhere that were left undefended and the Tyranids turning another hive world into a tasty snack.
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
No, not at all. They would have done more damage (perhaps even taking Dal'yth it'self), but they were, far, far from defeating the tau as a whole. And the imperium wasn't doing too well in the waning days of the crusade either. Their orbital hold was beggining to weaken, and their momentum had been long run down. Even if they had won Dy'lath, that would have been the end of the crusade.
Edit: That being said, it was a brutal campaign, which hit the tau like nothing had ever hit before. It was there first look at what they imperium could bring to bear, and many things they had no effective counter for (titans, psykers, ect).
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
I consider the first Crusade a win for Humanity, but that was during the second sphere of expansion. What about this one?
And Pregrine: I know, and that's what dissapoints Me. The Tau will have a campaign based on their wars with the Imperium because they are the Empire's greatest threat. When it's time for the next Imperial army to get new releases (most likely IG or the Sob,) there will likely be no mention of the tau at all. No campaigns set against the tau, no new missions or fluff based on the Imperium's retaliation against the Tau because the tau just aren't important enough to the IoM!!! That's the stupid part. Whenever there's a battle between the two powers, it's going to be a Tau win because the Imperium has "bigger" things to worry about. Seriously, with all the asses that the tau have kicked, I wonder why GW can't just progress the story a little, to the point where the Imperials kick the Tau out.of their space to show everyone why Humans are still the dominant species of the universe. Unfortunately, gak don't work like dat.
123ply wrote: Humans are still the dominant species of the universe.
They aren't. They're a dying species, living out its last days in such unimaginable misery that it would probably be better to just get it over with and let the Tyranids eat them. They continue to exist for one reason, and one reason only: their sheer size allows them to lose war after war and still continue to exist. The only question which remains in 40k is not whether humanity will survive, but who will inflict the final blow.
If you don't understand this fact then you have really missed the entire point of the setting.
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
No, not at all. They would have done more damage (perhaps even taking Dal'yth it'self), but they were, far, far from defeating the tau as a whole. And the imperium wasn't doing too well in the waning days of the crusade either. Their orbital hold was beggining to weaken, and their momentum had been long run down. Even if they had won Dy'lath, that would have been the end of the crusade.
Edit: That being said, it was a brutal campaign, which hit the tau like nothing had ever hit before. It was there first look at what they imperium could bring to bear, and many things they had no effective counter for (titans, psykers, ect).
As an Imperial fan boy , I hate you and will disregard everything you said.
I'm kidding. I don't hate you but I can honestly say I consider my self an IoM fanboy. I really don't think that we would have been stopped on Dy'lath, I really do think the Imperium would have won. Based in what I read from the Warhammer wiki, it seemed like we still had more juice to go before we were to be stopped, but then again, the Tau did not yet have counters to some of our things like titans and super heavies as you said. The Tau now have crazy riptides, and the Stormsurge is defiantly going to waste a lot of armour everywhere they're mentioned. Because of inferiority if the Tau if you compared them then to now, I think the guard would have eventually pushed through Dy'lath. Though I could say things would have been different if that battle were to have taken place in current times where the Tau have developed immensely...
But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore. We had so much trouble taking out crisis suits, now those guys have riptides and giant ghost battlesuits I can't see the Imperium winning anymore. Sure we outnumber you like 50 to 1, but we're stretched so thinly and ha e so much more to deal with that there would be never enough manpower to shred the Tau cheese. The only way to win is if GW and BL writers didn't underpowered the Guard. I remember in this ine short story, about 50 leman russet got crushed by a riptide and a team of broadsides. How in hell's name is that possible? Every story I read where the Tau fight the IG, everything we have is crap. Our tanks are the Leman Russ Cardboard variants, our infantry die in droves like they're unarmed, and even Lascannon and battle cannon shots for whatever reason don't do any damage to battle suits. It was even stated in a WD that the battlesuits' shields can stop even baneblade shells, yet somehow pulse rifles can shred Astartes power armour like it's flak armour.
I just want to see the IoM demonstrated as the power houses they are to be. I want to see Leman Russe withstand missles and rail guns like they should. I want to see Autocannon and missle launchers actually damage battlesuits like they should, and our infantry being, I don't know, infantry? And not just men who shoot at the air and get killed by it.
Such a rant, but if the Guard can wreck the Eldar constantly, along with just about every other race (except Tyranids. Tyranids will always kill the gak out of us but that's acceptable imo.) What makes the Tau impervious to losing?
123ply wrote: Humans are still the dominant species of the universe.
They aren't. They're a dying species, living out its last days in such unimaginable misery that it would probably be better to just get it over with and let the Tyranids eat them. They continue to exist for one reason, and one reason only: their sheer size allows them to lose war after war and still continue to exist. The only question which remains in 40k is not whether humanity will survive, but who will inflict the final blow.
If you don't understand this fact then you have really missed the entire point of the setting.
They're dying, sure, but the fact is: they're still the dominant species. And they don't lose war after war, they infact win most of them... unless they're facing the tau or tyranids, then they lose.
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
No, not at all. They would have done more damage (perhaps even taking Dal'yth it'self), but they were, far, far from defeating the tau as a whole. And the imperium wasn't doing too well in the waning days of the crusade either. Their orbital hold was beggining to weaken, and their momentum had been long run down. Even if they had won Dy'lath, that would have been the end of the crusade.
Edit: That being said, it was a brutal campaign, which hit the tau like nothing had ever hit before. It was there first look at what they imperium could bring to bear, and many things they had no effective counter for (titans, psykers, ect).
As an Imperial fan boy , I hate you and will disregard everything you said.
I'm kidding. I don't hate you but I can honestly say I consider my self an IoM fanboy. I really don't think that we would have been stopped on Dy'lath, I really do think the Imperium would have won. Based in what I read from the Warhammer wiki, it seemed like we still had more juice to go before we were to be stopped, but then again, the Tau did not yet have counters to some of our things like titans and super heavies as you said. The Tau now have crazy riptides, and the Stormsurge is defiantly going to waste a lot of armour everywhere they're mentioned. Because of inferiority if the Tau if you compared them then to now, I think the guard would have eventually pushed through Dy'lath. Though I could say things would have been different if that battle were to have taken place in current times where the Tau have developed immensely...
But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore. We had so much trouble taking out crisis suits, now those guys have riptides and giant ghost battlesuits I can't see the Imperium winning anymore. Sure we outnumber you like 50 to 1, but we're stretched so thinly and ha e so much more to deal with that there would be never enough manpower to shred the Tau cheese. The only way to win is if GW and BL writers didn't underpowered the Guard. I remember in this ine short story, about 50 leman russet got crushed by a riptide and a team of broadsides. How in hell's name is that possible? Every story I read where the Tau fight the IG, everything we have is crap. Our tanks are the Leman Russ Cardboard variants, our infantry die in droves like they're unarmed, and even Lascannon and battle cannon shots for whatever reason don't do any damage to battle suits. It was even stated in a WD that the battlesuits' shields can stop even baneblade shells, yet somehow pulse rifles can shred Astartes power armour like it's flak armour.
I just want to see the IoM demonstrated as the power houses they are to be. I want to see Leman Russe withstand missles and rail guns like they should. I want to see Autocannon and missle launchers actually damage battlesuits like they should, and our infantry being, I don't know, infantry? And not just men who shoot at the air and get killed by it.
Such a rant, but if the Guard can wreck the Eldar constantly, along with just about every other race (except Tyranids. Tyranids will always kill the gak out of us but that's acceptable imo.) What makes the Tau impervious to losing?
Pehaps they could have continued, but they wouldn't have got very far. Look where Dal'yth is in the tau empire.
Spoiler:
You would still have the vast majority of tau space to push trhough. Now this map is a bit bigger than what it was back then (this is mid-3rd, versus dal'yth which was late 2nd(?), but you get the picture.
It did, however, show something very important about the imperium. How much they underestimated the tau. They thought that crusade could kill the tau, but all that crusade's fighting was focused mainly in a single sept. It also shows how unprepared the tau were for an attack of that ferocity. They were used to dealing with local alien presence, an orks. They had never faced an enemy of that magnitude.
If any of the Imperium's big guns were to be brought to bear on the Tau (things like Arks Mechanici and Ramillies Star Forts) in full-scale Crusade (which the Damocles Gulf Crusade most definitely was not; it was a minor Crusade at best), then I highly doubt the Tau would be able to withstand Imperial wrath.
123ply wrote: Humans are still the dominant species of the universe.
If you don't understand this fact then you have really missed the entire point of the setting.
The point of the setting is the eternal stalemate, not the full-on doom of humanity. But both of those are superseded by the real point of the setting: Selling more Citadel™ miniatures.
dusara217 wrote: If any of the Imperium's big guns were to be brought to bear on the Tau (things like Arks Mechanici and Ramillies Star Forts) in full-scale Crusade (which the Damocles Gulf Crusade most definitely was not; it was a minor Crusade at best), then I highly doubt the Tau would be able to withstand Imperial wrath.
Well, yes, that's sort of obvious. Not only are the tau tiny, if the imperium could bring it's full force against an one oppnent, they'd pretty much win. It's just that they are getting attacked from all side, and cannot afford to do something like that.
I'm not doubting the imperium's power, just the power of what they have sent so far. The imperium severely underestimates the tau, and is continually out-maneuvered by them.
dusara217 wrote: If any of the Imperium's big guns were to be brought to bear on the Tau (things like Arks Mechanici and Ramillies Star Forts) in full-scale Crusade (which the Damocles Gulf Crusade most definitely was not; it was a minor Crusade at best), then I highly doubt the Tau would be able to withstand Imperial wrath.
Correct, though it's doubtful that the Tau will ever experience anything close to the Imperium's wrath, due to a pair of factors: The Tau Empire is a tiny, irrelevant piece of the galactic puzzle, and they're always going to have a certain amount of plot armor, as their empire being destroyed means GW won't be able to sell the Tau codex.
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
This isn't the Damocles Crusade, this time the Tau have invaded Prefectia which is a world in the Damocles Gulf.
Imperium is almost definitely going to lose, especially since this is to support a Tau release.
As for the Imperium's ability to wipe out the Tau, obviously they could if they put enough resources together. However they CAN'T right now. As of 999.M41 the Imperium is bogged down everywhere, especially due to Armageddon, 13th Black Crusade, and the Tyrannic Wars. The resources aren't available to wipe out the Tau, and the Tau are taking advantage of that and expanding.
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
No, not at all. They would have done more damage (perhaps even taking Dal'yth it'self), but they were, far, far from defeating the tau as a whole. And the imperium wasn't doing too well in the waning days of the crusade either. Their orbital hold was beggining to weaken, and their momentum had been long run down. Even if they had won Dy'lath, that would have been the end of the crusade
Edit: That being said, it was a brutal campaign, which hit the tau like nothing had ever hit before. It was there first look at what they imperium could bring to bear, and many things they had no effective counter for (titans, psykers, ect).
As an Imperial fan boy , I hate you and will disregard everything you said.
I'm kidding. I don't hate you but I can honestly say I consider my self an IoM fanboy. I really don't think that we would have been stopped on Dy'lath, I really do think the Imperium would have won. Based in what I read from the Warhammer wiki, it seemed like we still had more juice to go before we were to be stopped, but then again, the Tau did not yet have counters to some of our things like titans and super heavies as you said. The Tau now have crazy riptides, and the Stormsurge is defiantly going to waste a lot of armour everywhere they're mentioned. Because of inferiority if the Tau if you compared them then to now, I think the guard would have eventually pushed through Dy'lath. Though I could say things would have been different if that battle were to have taken place in current times where the Tau have developed immensely...
But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore. We had so much trouble taking out crisis suits, now those guys have riptides and giant ghost battlesuits I can't see the Imperium winning anymore. Sure we outnumber you like 50 to 1, but we're stretched so thinly and ha e so much more to deal with that there would be never enough manpower to shred the Tau cheese. The only way to win is if GW and BL writers didn't underpowered the Guard. I remember in this ine short story, about 50 leman russet got crushed by a riptide and a team of broadsides. How in hell's name is that possible? Every story I read where the Tau fight the IG, everything we have is crap. Our tanks are the Leman Russ Cardboard variants, our infantry die in droves like they're unarmed, and even Lascannon and battle cannon shots for whatever reason don't do any damage to battle suits. It was even stated in a WD that the battlesuits' shields can stop even baneblade shells, yet somehow pulse rifles can shred Astartes power armour like it's flak armour.
I just want to see the IoM demonstrated as the power houses they are to be. I want to see Leman Russe withstand missles and rail guns like they should. I want to see Autocannon and missle launchers actually damage battlesuits like they should, and our infantry being, I don't know, infantry? And not just men who shoot at the air and get killed by it.
Such a rant, but if the Guard can wreck the Eldar constantly, along with just about every other race (except Tyranids. Tyranids will always kill the gak out of us but that's acceptable imo.) What makes the Tau impervious to losing?
Pehaps they could have continued, but they wouldn't have got very far. Look where Dal'yth is in the tau empire.
Spoiler:
You would still have the vast majority of tau space to push trhough. Now this map is a bit bigger than what it was back then (this is mid-3rd, versus dal'yth which was late 2nd(?), but you get the picture.
It did, however, show something very important about the imperium. How much they underestimated the tau. They thought that crusade could kill the tau, but all that crusade's fighting was focused mainly in a single sept. It also shows how unprepared the tau were for an attack of that ferocity. They were used to dealing with local alien presence, an orks. They had never faced an enemy of that magnitude.
Wow, I never noticed how close Dal'yth was to the fringe of their territory. I was under the impression it was deeper than that. Still though, if I remember correctly, the Tau have spent more of their forces on thay Sept world than they have on any other planet. If the Imperium were to win there, they would have survived the bulk of the Tau's firepower and moved on.
And Harriticus: the fact that the Kayoun book came out to help supplement the Tau is the reason I think the Imperials will lose on Prefectia. Buuuut, will they lose to the Third Sphere of Expansion, or will the Tau be denied of the worlds they believe they can claim?
dusara217 wrote: If any of the Imperium's big guns were to be brought to bear on the Tau (things like Arks Mechanici and Ramillies Star Forts) in full-scale Crusade (which the Damocles Gulf Crusade most definitely was not; it was a minor Crusade at best), then I highly doubt the Tau would be able to withstand Imperial wrath.
Correct, though it's doubtful that the Tau will ever experience anything close to the Imperium's wrath, due to a pair of factors: The Tau Empire is a tiny, irrelevant piece of the galactic puzzle, and they're always going to have a certain amount of plot armor, as their empire being destroyed means GW won't be able to sell the Tau codex.
Plot armour. Both the Imperium and the Tau's best friend.
123ply wrote: With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore.
That's because it isn't. The question is not will the marines win, it's will they take losses that are a crippling blow to the Imperium, or merely just a heavy burden.
I remember in this ine short story, about 50 leman russet got crushed by a riptide and a team of broadsides. How in hell's name is that possible? Every story I read where the Tau fight the IG, everything we have is crap. Our tanks are the Leman Russ Cardboard variants, our infantry die in droves like they're unarmed, and even Lascannon and battle cannon shots for whatever reason don't do any damage to battle suits. It was even stated in a WD that the battlesuits' shields can stop even baneblade shells, yet somehow pulse rifles can shred Astartes power armour like it's flak armour.
Yep, sucks to be a guardsman.
I just want to see the IoM demonstrated as the power houses they are to be.
They aren't a powerhouse, they're a dying civilization that loses to pretty much anything else in the setting.
They're dying, sure, but the fact is: they're still the dominant species.
They really aren't. Even ignoring the Tau the Necrons are vastly superior in every way if/when they finally bother to use their full strength, Orks are just plain unbeatable long-term, Chaos will always exist no matter what humanity does, and the Tyranids are just taking time to enjoy their meal instead of wiping out humanity in a single overwhelming wave of death. The only faction the Imperium can possibly win against is the Eldar, and only because the Eldar are another dying civilization that doesn't have the sheer numbers to match the Imperium.
And they don't lose war after war, they infact win most of them... unless they're facing the tau or tyranids, then they lose.
No, they don't win, and that's the whole point of the setting. Even when the Imperium achieves its immediate battlefield objectives it's just delaying the inevitable a bit, it's probably a pyrrhic victory, and while it was happening a dozen other planets were lost to various enemies. Asking why the Imperium loses is like asking why water is wet.
Yea, just going to enjoy the ride. Tau are gonna win the campaign because what else can be grimdark except the eventual demise of humanity? It gets annoying.
It bears mentioning that in no Tau-Imperium conflict has the Imperium even come close to treating the Tau as a serious threat. The forces they have committed have been minimal, matching the Tau's threat level(which is to say almost non-existent).
The Tau are a flea biting the Imperial lion's big toe. They warrant nothing more than a idle itch compared to actual galactic threats. Realistically, the Tau don't even deserve a codex in the game if we were to base it on actual impact in the setting.
If the Tau were to ever lose a conflict, they'd just get extinguished. The Imperium crushes bigger and more dangerous empires every day without a second thought, the Tau empire is beneath their notice in the grand scheme of things. They only survive because of this, when/if the Tau actually get the Imperium's attention they will be snuffed out like a candle in a hurricane. So the Tau always win their fights. Which is about as impressive as the flea saying he beat the lion because he drank a little blood and the lion didn't kill him.
BlaxicanX wrote: They've committed more to defeating them then they have any other enemy faction with the exception of Chaos and Necrons.
Incorrect. The 1st Daemocles Gulf Crusade had a total roster that was less than 10% of the forces that were engaged on Armageddon.
The Tau are small beans on the Galactic scale.
The Tau are below Orks, Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids, and the Eldar in terms of resources that have been committed to countering them. Largely because the Tau are in one location, while everyone else is basically everywhere.
Even with that, its far from impressive. While Armageddon was big, it was just one planet. And they're sending barely many more troops to take on an entire race which has one podunk corner of the Galaxy.
lol, okay. So we're going to ignore the figures when they don't suit our argument.
Even with that, its far from impressive. While Armageddon was big, it was just one planet. And they're sending barely many more troops to take on an entire race which has one podunk corner of the Galaxy.
This ridiculous statement aside, your assertion was that the Imperium has never taken the Tau seriously. If you think that 1000+ regiments, several titan legions and a dozen whole chapters isn't a serious response than you're simply wrong.
It wasn't a dozen chapters. It was a handful of representatives from a dozen chapters barely making up a complete company. So 12 chapters sent a combined total of around 100 marines.
1000 regiments is nothing. Literally nothing. The Imperium's birth rate is in the quadrillions. Thousands of regiments get raised every day with birth rates on that order of magnitude.
The tau philosophy is "To make an omlette, you gotta break a few eggs". This is the proverbial egg-breaking.
Such a shame considering they're on Ultramar's doorstep and Calgar simply can't be arsed to roll up and issue exterminatus right to their homeworld. Realistically the smurfs are a better deployment option (Over Raven Guard and White Scars) considering nothing of huge note happened to them since the First Tyranic War which was a complete failure; Everything else was small beans really.
Grey Templar wrote: when/if the Tau actually get the Imperium's attention they will be snuffed out like a candle in a hurricane.
Unless of course enough time passes that Tau technology has advanced to a point where the Imperium's advantage in sheer numbers is negated. Which is the whole point of the Tau, right now they are little more than a distraction, but they have the potential to destroy the Imperium. And the Imperium can not stop that certain death in the future because they have to spend everything they have on fighting for survival, and giving even the slightest thought to what the Tau might do tomorrow means dying today.
Also something that has not been mentioned yet, the situation with the Tau and the Farsight Enclaves. Would the Imperium decide to focus on invading and wiping out the fledging Independent faction or like they have in events past potentially seek a joint accord with the Farsight Enclaves agains the Tau Empire bretheren. From what I have read about Farsight it seems that it is only a matter of time before him and the Empire come to blows.
The reason for the IoM's stance as a "dying race on the verge of collapse" blah blah blah, is because they are the supreme power of the universe. How much territory does the Imperium control, now compare it to the territory that any other faction controls. If your race owns thousands, if not millions of worlds, it's no surprise that you're getting attacked at every angle by forces much more insignificant than you are. I mean, I've stated it before that the the Imperium is the biggest threat to the Tau, yet the Tau is the smallest threat to the Imperium.. and yes it is true that the Imperium has spent less troops on the tau than on any faction they have over all. Point aside, look at the new series coming out, "The Beast Arises." It's not even out yet but anybody who's heard of the series knows about how it's referring to a time where humanity was at its peak, and was attacked and almost destroyed by an ork waaagh that made the wars on Armageddon look like they were minor skirmishes. Humanity defeated the orks, who caused the greatest war since the Hours Heresy, and now they're back to having their numbers bolstered to such crazy amounts, and everything has been rebuilt (just about) to a point where it's as if that galaxy sized waaagh never even happened. The orks from this series were soooooooooooooooo much more dangerous than the Tau currently are, and Humanity won.
Really though, when I think about it, the Imperium will probably win this campaign. Not with the book which was just released, but with a future book, hopefully, kind of like what GW did with the Shield of Baal campaign: Where the Tyranids utterly dominated the guard in the first set, then the tide turned by the end of the second set of books.
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gmaleron wrote: Also something that has not been mentioned yet, the situation with the Tau and the Farsight Enclaves. Would the Imperium decide to focus on invading and wiping out the fledging Independent faction or like they have in events past potentially seek a joint accord with the Farsight Enclaves agains the Tau Empire bretheren. From what I have read about Farsight it seems that it is only a matter of time before him and the Empire come to blows.
Knowing the Imperium, they probably don't even know what the Farsight Enclaves are. If they did, I could see them going to war being more likely than them teaming up against the loyalist Tau.
I'm actually note sure if humanity necessarily controls more planets than any other race, specifically Orks. We know the Imperium is often described as being isolated states and planets surrounded by hostile space, and its been made clear many times the Imperium should not be thought of as a contiguous land empire of some sort. The fact that a map of the galaxy is represented as a 2 Dimensional plane is a pity since it doesn't really accurately reflect the idea of motion or nation building in space well but its also not like they can do better. But it should be kept in mind that the Imperium is very much states connected by travel and communication which can often between them have wide gulfs and areas of space in which they have no control. Back to the prior point, particularly looking at the map in the Ork Codex and their description numerous times as a more numerous race than humanity and as being stretched so far that the Imperium has never had space it discovered which was not already infested by Orks, I'd actually always gained the impression that the Orks, obviously, control more territory than any other species. The difference is that, like the reason they haven't overwhelmed the galaxy canonically, they're not a united faction. To be honest the extent to which the Imperium is 'united' is itself a highly contentious issue but, even with that, the Imperium is still vastly more united than the Orks are. That being said 'dominant' can mean many different things. For example the Tyranid and Orks both seem dominant to me since they've never been and seem to never be even close to under threat of extinction. No matter what happens they keep chugging on, keep remaining a major threat and never are 'in the twilight of their time' like the Eldar and Imperium are. The Orks achieve this even though the entire species has never once come close to being a united Hegemon unlike Eldar, Necron, Humans, Tau or Tyranids. In that ways the Orks as a species, to me, are 'dominant' since they seem incapable of suffering any real lasting harm. Of course, to be honest, in the setting the Chaos Gods are of course the conventionally 'dominant' group since their power is canonically and consistently stated to outstrip everyone else's and it is made clear that (barring Slaanesh potentially against Ynid) they do not have any actual potential threats to their existence at all. I might not like it but I definitely think the Chaos Gods can be described as 'dominant' before Mankind (a nebulous concept anyway since Mankind isn't fully united so you really just mean humans who submit to the Imperium and exclude humans who are independent, Chaos worshippers or members of the Tau Empire from the species).
As for the wider issue, the moaning about the Tau actually winning a campaign against the Imperium again, you'll have to forgive me since though I do sympathise with the fact that the Raven Guard were forced to Job hard for the Tau Empire (although I do not take issue with the concept of Shadowsun killing as major a figure as she did, she is the headline character of her faction and thus needs to be established as a threat to be fair to the Tau players who are as legitimate fans and players as any other faction's players and thus deserve the same treatment) overall I have no sympathy for complaints about the Tau victory. Are the Tau experiencing a rash of victories and good fortune? Yes. But so what? If we wish to do this numerically then the Imperium still wins far more narrative campaigns than any other faction put together. I hope these Tau victories will be a sign that GW will be more fair in distributing wins and awesome moments to all factions but, for now, I'm happy just to have at least one non-Imperium faction receiving even a modicum of the same positive coverage as the Imperium does.
Also...seriously? The Imperium won Macragge, 2nd Armageddon, Ichar, Piscina, Sanctus Reach, Damnos and that is only naming the ones off hand. The Tau do have a good record against the Imperium specifically, good for them since somebody needs it, whilst the Imperium has a fantastic record against Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, Necron and Eldar. I'm an Imperium Player and it is obvious that our Faction is far more supported and successful in the Fluff than any other faction. The Setting barely even parodies how horrible the Imperium is now (what drew me to it initially) and instead tries usually to play it straight as if I'd even for a second actually swallow their justifications. The Tau are having a good run, the Imperium are being used as the beat stick for it, but other factions have been used as a beat stick for the Imperium since the beginning. Nobody likes it but condemning one example of it is hypocritical. I'm all for condemning any case of it, Imperium or Tau, but then I'll condemn both. Personally I've chosen to embrace it in the vain hope that we'll finally see the other factions, specifically Xenos and Chaos, get some more shine to them.
Then on a side note to be helpful to the first post; I can link you many stories where Battlesuits get toasted if you want. Got a Mechanicus short story one where they blow up, a couple of Space Wolves ones where they blow up, a bunch about Ko'sarro Khan and Imperial Knights wiping them out and even the 13th Penal Legion assassinating a prior Commander Brightsword. Also the Farsight ones where the Orks are played up as a serious threat for the first time in like forever. To be honest I must disagree, I hope the Imperium loses this conflict since that will be the first of these narrative supplement campaigns where the Imperium simply loses. I become tired of playing a faction with such plot armour that they never lose a single narrative supplement or campaign, its boring to read when I always know who is going to win, thus I truly hope that the Damocles Warzone is finally a war the Imperium unambiguously loses. Having the Imperium actually suffer a shock like that would be enormously fun and advance the plot more than 'we were losing but then cool marines arrive and we win' which virtually every narrative supplement boils down to of late.
Than as a side note, about The Beast, a thing to note on it is that there is no way, at this point, to canonically state if the Imperium has recovered from it in full. I don't remember being told anywhere that this occurred or being given a list of things and places lost in the war. If anything I always assumed that the Warhammer Fluff made quite clear the Imperium of now is clearly inferior in size and power to what it was and, no doubt, the Horus Heresy and The Beast are apparently the two incidents which have hurt it the most in recent times. Than, as the flipside, the Orks literally seem not to have even noticed the fact that the Beast came and went. For them it was just another fight, a big and good fight, but the Orks are under no belief better fights aren't coming or that they've seen their heyday of some sort. So , if anything, Goro-Ulanor-Beast-Ghazghkull continues to show that the Orks keep on rolling regardless of what happens in the Galaxy.
As for this conversation about 'would the Tau survive, how many men does the Imperium send' I won't get into it since, to me, it misses the key underlying points anyway. The numbers are always going to be tricky and unreliable GW simply doesn't do them well. That means we can use them, and if we commit ourselves to even using a few we must commit ourselves to treating them all as valid, but at the same time we have to accept things are going to get strange then. The key point, anyway, is that of course the Tau Empire is minor now but, as is pointed out often, the Imperium began with Terra and Mars. A small beginning in no way precludes greatness, it is history that an Empire that is small and peripheral becomes the new hegemon, obviously since if only an existing superpower can become the new superpower than we have a circular situation. The Tau Empire is so a burgeoning small power. It is minor now but, like the Imperium, that in no way precludes it from achieving incredibly things and growing exponentially. The Tau's entire theme, as explicated often, is a young dynamic race which grows incredibly quickly compared to everyone else.
To be honest though, in the end all other things aside;
123ply wrote:
Wow, I never noticed how close Dal'yth was to the fringe of their territory. I was under the impression it was deeper than that. Still though, if I remember correctly, the Tau have spent more of their forces on thay Sept world than they have on any other planet. If the Imperium were to win there, they would have survived the bulk of the Tau's firepower and moved on.
Dal'yth was deeper than that. It's literally the only one of "several" worlds that managed to hold out against the Crusade.
Someone was talking about leaks of the kauyon book or new codex so take it with a lot of salt I can't prove anything.
Spoiler:
The Imperial forces withdraw after taking casualties (shadowsun killing the chapter master of the ravenguard). All remaining forces are being called upon to stop the Tyranids. The obsidian knight get killed by multiple Stormsurges (but why GW?!? i just finished painting him!).
The Imperium however now see the Tau as a threat to get rid off and are preparing a full scale crusade to wipe them out. Farsight is suppsed to be their savior, but at the cost of his soul.
It would be "win" Tau for the first part even though both armies were getting wrecked hard. The storyline end there.
Also the transfer sheet talk about Vior'la Sept as a homeworld... But i'm pretty sure It should be T'au. Maybe the Imperium will do an exterminatus run on the Tau homeworld or the Tyranids will just eat the planet in a future book.
"This 210x297mm decal sheet contains highly-detailed transfers depicting the striking iconography and symbolism of the Vior’la Sept, the Tau Empire’s notably aggressive and batle-skilled homeworld. It’s been designed especially for creating beautiful patterns on your miniatures - simply cut to fit, and apply"
The Septs are often referred to as having a 'Homeworld' so I doubt there's anything more to it than that. Remember that Tau from the Vior'la Sept still call their Homeworld 'Vior'la' since that is, literally, their Homeworld. Farsight, for example, is referred to as having Vior'la as a Homeworld.I highly doubt we'd see any fluff change as big and radical as the T'au Sept being annihilated for any reason. More likely its just a comment saying 'now you can play Tau who's Homeworld is Vior'la' kind of like how the Homeworld of Space Wolves is reffered to as Fenris, not Terra. Obviously it could happen but...I really wouldn't bet my money on something that radical happening anytime soon at all.
Spoiler:
So the Obsidian Knight died? Or did just the Machine blow up?
The Tau win after it, unsurprisingly given the title, it all turns out to be a massive bait by Shadowsun.
The Chapter Master of the Raven Guard is killed (Shrike takes his place) and in killing such a renowned figure as a Chapter Master of the first founding the Tau get the full ire of the Imperium on Terra.
Anemone: I understand everything you have said, but the reason I don't consider the orks as dominant is because, as you said, they are dispersed and quite the opposite of united. As for the chaos gods, their forces pop up here and there, but because of Cadia's job at holding out on the Cadian Gate, Chaos marines/ daemons have no stable route to get into our galaxy.
And I know, I know what you mean, and it really usually doesn't bother me when the Imperial loses, but that's not the problem. The problem is that they keep on losing to the Tau. I mean, almost every conflict fought between them ends up in the Tau winning. I wouldn't have a problem reading about any other faction defeating the humans because no other faction, because of GW, has claimed so many victories in such a short period of time other than the Tau. It's not the fact they lose, it's the fact they keep on losing. If the Imperials were to win this campaign, I judt hope it doesn't follow today's norm where- the Guard soften up the enemy but get annihilated, then Space Marines come out of nowhere and win.
And also, yes please! Please send me stories of crisis suits/ any battle suit, getting massacred by Imperial forces! I've only ever heard of it happening (Voltoris, and the Black Leviathan short story) but I've never actually read any moments where is happened. I remember a short story in, I believe it was Shas'o, where shadow sun finds three dead crisis suits in a crater with kram missle holes in each of them, but it doesn't actually describe how the suits were defeated. I read a part of Fire Caste but that novel was a biased, one sided load of cheese where the Guard were made to look like super Rambos, atleast in the part that I read, it featured sentinels (I'm pretty sure only two) take out a team of crisis suits while losing about only half their squadron.
So yes, please send stories of the Imperials beating the Tau And who is the character that Shadowsun killed, if you don't mind spoiling it for me? Is it the stormseer from Voltoris, or is it somebody more renowned, like Captain Shrike?... Thanks in advance.
A Watcher In The Dark wrote: Someone was talking about leaks of the kauyon book or new codex so take it with a lot of salt I can't prove anything.
Spoiler:
The Imperial forces withdraw after taking casualties (shadowsun killing the chapter master of the ravenguard). All remaining forces are being called upon to stop the Tyranids. The obsidian knight get killed by multiple Stormsurges (but why GW?!? i just finished painting him!).
The Imperium however now see the Tau as a threat to get rid off and are preparing a full scale crusade to wipe them out. Farsight is suppsed to be their savior, but at the cost of his soul.
It would be "win" Tau for the first part even though both armies were getting wrecked hard. The storyline end there.
Also the transfer sheet talk about Vior'la Sept as a homeworld... But i'm pretty sure It should be T'au. Maybe the Imperium will an exterminatus run on the Tau homeworld or the Tyranids just ate eat in a future book.
"This 210x297mm decal sheet contains highly-detailed transfers depicting the striking iconography and symbolism of the Vior’la Sept, the Tau Empire’s notably aggressive and batle-skilled homeworld. It’s been designed especially for creating beautiful patterns on your miniatures - simply cut to fit, and apply"
Oh, well you just answered my question. And did the Obsidian Knight get killed? Are you serious?
Damn Shadowsun! Give it a few more seconds and Khan would have outright killed her! Instead, she was forced to retreat because of her dire injuries, and came back another day to make the Raven Guard cry. Yes she escaped, yes I mentioned that only to remind people she's not, or shouldn't be invincible. Now that I mention it, there was a story in Shas'o where Shadowsun, in her xv22 stealth suit and fusion blasters, fights an Imperial Guard colonial in one on one melee and lost. She unproudfully (is that a word?) fired her fusion blasters at the colonial during the fight because she knew she wouldn't win against him. Take in mind this man was wearing probably just his flak armour with some nice medals, while Shadowsun was in her battlesuit. Anyway, they fight, Shadowsun fires her weapon and narrowly misses, they keep fighting, colonial kicks her ass, and before he finishes her off and kills her, Shadowsun's Human prisoner jumps in and saves her. I can recall two times now, or three if the Raven Guard chapter master injured her, where Shadowsun was humiliated, if not defeated in melee. That's understandable though, since the Tau aren't known to be martial artists, but how bout we shoot her instead? >
Also, does anybody notice how often a battle is fought because it is "bait?" Shadowsun constantly fools the Imperium, and we constantly fall for it :/ but the Tau now has our attention, let's see where this goes.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Furyou Miko wrote: It's the guy who died to make Shrike captain. Nobody important.
Being a named character in the tabletop game basically grants you ultimate plot armour - why is shy for the most part, people don't write about them.
I thought the Ravenguard Chapter Master is who died?
I don't see how it's that surprising that the knight got killed. The tau do have anti-titian weapons you know. Although GW writers seem to forget, because they are from FW.
123ply wrote:
Wow, I never noticed how close Dal'yth was to the fringe of their territory. I was under the impression it was deeper than that. Still though, if I remember correctly, the Tau have spent more of their forces on thay Sept world than they have on any other planet. If the Imperium were to win there, they would have survived the bulk of the Tau's firepower and moved on.
Dal'yth was deeper than that. It's literally the only one of "several" worlds that managed to hold out against the Crusade.
No, not at all. The tau empire is bigger than it ever was before. That map is 3rd sphere, long after they recaptured the worlds lost. Heck that's even part of farsight's backstory, the first sign of him splitting off was him continuing to capture worlds after re-capturing the ones lost.
The chapter master didn't get outright slain, he may yet come back as a Dread.
Shadowsun was responsible for killing him, but I thought He also cut off shadowsuns arm and stabbed her multiple times leaving her for dead.
Now I could see this happening, but because Shadowsun is such am Important character, I doubt her arm was cut off, unless the tau make use of mechanized prosthetics like the Imperial do. Though, those injuries seem more likely to happen to one of the other Commanders.
Speaking of, what of the T'au and Vior'la commanders? Did they get killed or are they still breathing? Because it's not unimaginable that they die, Considering they were created just for this narrative.
^^^ The Tau have anti titan weapons, But so do the Imperium. If anything, they have even more, yet I don't think any of us will ever read about a stormsurge getting destroyed anytime soon.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The tau do have prosthetics, farsight has them for his legs (I think they were burnt off).
And it's quite likely the chapter master will survive, SMs have a knack for that (especially named ones ).
corvenus or whatever his name was: wasnt a named marine really, he was mentioned as a captain in like 1 novel briefly and in a whitedwarf
originally the Raven Guard were never supposed to have a chapter master, their structure was supposed to be guerrilla like and having many chapter masters in the sense of keeping information limited to all parties. So everyone named a chapter master name who actually never existed.
I just see this as them making Shrike the leader to sell his model more, given the added warlord traits.
@Triszin: Unfortunately I think he's gone for good. Considering he had no Miniature and was tragically one of those sort of named characters who are introduced, hyped and then usually die to a Character with a model without ever demonstrating anything beyond 'Informed Ability' I doubt GW has any interest in him surviving. He's sort of like that Ork Warboss on Ulanor or, really, Orks in Space Marine fiction of any sort. His purpose was to make Shadowsun look badass. I agree its a pity that's all we got but I really doubt he's survived. At least, I suppose, he does have Voltoris to his credit, since he orchestrated it, so that's better than nothing.
Spoiler:
If I remember correctly after Shadowsun bisects him we get his POV as he is burned alive and then deposited on the corpses of his men. To my knowledge there weren't anyone around to reclaim them either. Also the Tau he attacked, and almost certainly killed, was a body double Shadowsun used to attract his attention so that she could hit him from the side. I don't think he nicks her once in the fight (fight's a generous term, he swoops down and hacks her body double to pieces then Shadowsun just shoots him from the side a couple of times).
@123ply: So moving on from the 'dominance' issue since I don't really think its relevant to this thread and, to be honest, I have nothing more to say on it other than that 'dominance' can be understood in multiple ways and the Chaos Gods are probably the most 'dominant' group in power terms in the setting, much to my chagrin.
On the issue of the Tau giving the Imperium a pounding...yes, its true, they are. The Tau are the one faction with a really good win record against the Imperium. I can understand that this bugs you, of course, but as I said just keep in mind how an Ork, Eldar, Necron, Chaos Space Marine or Dark Elder player feels with their inability to ever achieve meaningful narrative victories over the Imperium. What's happening with the Imperium in regards to the Tau right now, I understand, can be annoying but if we step back and take a little perspective its really a small drop in an otherwise still mostly one-sided set of victories. As you yourself said the Imperium might still win this conflict. That would make Agrellan still the only narrative supplement they have ever lost. As I said we can ever criticise when one faction seems to just steam roll everyone, which for a long time I did, but then we should be fair. As bad as the Tau are doing it the Imperium are still by far and away the biggest culprits of this and thus we should have even more concern with them. Second to them would be the Tau, by some margin, but I wouldn't argue that the Tau are recently doing best after the Imperium in the narrative conflicts. However, as I said, I've chosen to hope instead that maybe we can just reach a point where every faction gets narrative supplements where they are awesome and kickass.
So though I can sympathise with disliking the repeated defeats I must still, overall, admit I don't really see a problem with it. Even in Agrellan GW went out of its way to ameliorate the Imperium loss as much as it could, particularly by making it that despite the primary campaign being a Tau victory on Agrellan the final battle had to be an Imperium victory on Voltoris. Kauyon is the only unambiguous Tau narrative victory so far and, as you said, maybe they lose in the end anyway. That'd would be very disappointing and predictable to me but, as I said, the Imperium winning is predictable so I won't be surprised if it happens. On a personal side note I am also, personally, just happy to read Shadowsun being an unambiguous badass for once. On Agrellan we consistently had her berated by Aun'va and outdone by Ko'sarro and then in Last of Kiru's Line we have a normal Guardsman get the better of her (I'm imagining a Space Marine Special Character ever being allowed to be lame enough that, say, a single Chaos Cultist or Ork Boy can get the better of them). So to in Kauyon to finally just have her kick incredible, probably improbable, amounts of ass is refreshing. I know it'll all probably end with her losing and having to have Farsight bail her out cause she's not good enough to win on her own but, for now at least, I am actually enjoying her successes.
As for the Battlesuits being destroyed, sure, tomorrow during the day I'll compile quotes and send them to you, no problem.
Spoiler:
Shadowsun kills Severax, the Raven Guard Chapter Master
...Every other faction besides the Tau have better chances of achieving victory against the Imperium. Hell they all achieve victory every day essentially.
DE raid everyday, Eldar manipulate everyone, Orks get to fight period and are on the cusp of the greatest WAAAGH! ever. Tau... don't really deserve these victories.
It is bad fluff. But hey Tau players are fine with it so its justified.
Also Shadowsun being such a badass she loses a fight with a IG officer and ends up being saved by a prisoner... now that is a bad taste and not badass. But hey I never liked Tau whatev.
So that means they don't "deserve" wins? Look at what had been sent after them. Nowhere near enough to kill them. The orks messed up the tau more than the imperium has at this point (the great war of confederation hit the tau harder than the imperium ever has). Although I do feel where you are coming from here.
Quickjager wrote: Plot armor is the only thing that keeps Tau alive. Meh. Like everyone else said, when was the last time Tau actually lost.
Well... Pretty much everyone who isn't the Imperium is kicking Tau butt nowadays. Hive Fleet Gorgon almost ate the Empire (ironically, the Imperium saved the Tau here), the Dark Eldar trolled them super-hard, the Necrons harvested one of their Septs and are ready for more, the Orks are striking out from everywhere, and Chaos actively infiltrates the Tau through Farsight. Things look pretty bleak for the Tau outside of the Democles warzone, to be honest. Especially since the Earth Caste went haywire and picked up the habit to blow up moons/suns/everything with their random experiments.
Quickjaeger: I'm assuming your responses are off the cuff emotive ones, so, fine I'll not bother with the stereotyping of an entire group of people based on a fictional army they play (not to that a 'Tau' player can just as easily be an Imperal or Ork or whatever player). As to what you actually said about the fluff;
Your list of 'events' without examples is missing the fact that the 'Imperium winning wars' can as easily be added to it as any of the ones you mentioned. Also if the Orks are on the verge of the greatest Waaagh ever remains to be seen, it is still dwarfed by the Beast for example, hence why we discuss narrative and fluff based instances since everyone has statements of 'we do battles and win' thus th conversation has been concerning examples of it of importance to the narrative. Not to mention, key, is that your list ignores the Imperium winning battles, as common an event as the others you list.
Also a short list of recent defeats; Voltoris, Cano'var, An incident against the Adeptus Mechanicus in their new codex, The Space Wolves also have one where they destroy an underwater Tau colony, The Orks destroyed and looted a mega colony of theirs,
As for Shadowsun, yeah, now you get why it's nice to see her finally being an unambiguous badass?
Finally; everyone stays alive cause of plot armour. It's how the story works. But you have my sympathies concerning the Raven Guard, I do dislike how they were used.
To be fair the DE and Necron incidents were avoidable, but the Tau entered negotiations in bad faith themselves. Annnnd gak went down because of it, everyone was waiting to backstab the other side in those deals.
Simply put Tau and IMperium need there "Cadia" so to speak. A Line of worlds in which the battle is a constant back and forth.
At the same time a Treaty between the IoM and the Tau empire that allows them to expand to certain worlds (worlds either infested by orks or tyranid or other issues the IoM simply dont feel like dealing with)
Also a correction on lore, no more retcons, but have everyone be on the same page. No more oh they fell for the simple trap, write everyone intellegent. And gak happens, no plot armor.
but to do this they must advance the timeline, WHich I think they are starting to.
My biggest issue with the tau, they seem to be the only plotline they are advancing, everyone else must remain the same. I have issues when you advance one army and on one else.
By advancing I mean furthering the timeline and adding subtracting units.
Honestly they (Tau and the Imperium) are going to end up allies sometime in the future if 40k played out logically and the Eldar will eventually join that.
If 40k ever got resolved it would be Chaos vs. Eldar/humanity/maybeTau? Hard to say because the only prophecies we got for the Tau are apparently Farsight will save them from the Imperium... and after that nothing (And I've been hearing some gak about a GK teaming up w/ Farsight because of possible daemons).
Quickjager wrote: Honestly they (Tau and the Imperium) are going to end up allies sometime in the future if 40k played out logically and the Eldar will eventually join that.
If 40k ever got resolved it would be Chaos vs. Eldar/humanity/maybeTau? Hard to say because the only prophecies we got for the Tau are apparently Farsight will save them from the Imperium... and after that nothing (And I've been hearing some gak about a GK teaming up w/ Farsight because of possible daemons).
I could see them as neutral to each other. They dont push or take worlds already in use by each other, they may or may not share information they may effect each other in the future.
I could see them aiding each other when interests align but not true allies. No way would they be trade partners or share ideologies. There would still be conflict between them when they both want the same world for resources. I dont ever see them maning the same fort or listening posts however.
I would love to see 2 golden thrones, the backwards Highlords, and the Progressive Ultramarar. Ultramarar would be more willing to work with tau, but not much, as they would be focused and altering the mindset engraved into there people for thousands of years.
(dont mention the horrible Tau fanfic of the Tau and ultramarines teaming up and taking terra, thats whack and stupid as gak.)
----------------------------
In regards to lore inwhich Tau get wiped and beat up bad, basically every time the Space Wolves fight the tau, the space wolves just wreck em
The Tau have a reckoning coming, as there are actually valuable worlds the Tau are encroaching on (known as the Gilded Worlds, because they literally have mountains of Gold and Platinum), and the Imperium are sending enough troops to defend it that it's described that the Tau would literally have to throw everything they have at them to *maybe* take them.
And then there are the other fleets they are sending to take Agrellan back / attack the Taus territory behind Prefectia. They are pretty much waiting for the Tau to strike again so they can counter attack while their forces are throwing themselves at the Gilded Worlds.
And the only reason why they are sending the offensive part of the deal is because they killed the Raven Guard's chapter master.
Farsight is supposed to come back and save the Tau - I wonder if he's going to enact a Mon'ka on both of his enemies - the Imperials that are invading (for Dramas sake, it's on Fior'la!) and Aun'va, the super war mongering Ethereal.
Anemone wrote:On a personal side note I am also, personally, just happy to read Shadowsun being an unambiguous badass for once.
I'd have prefered it if we could have had another general like Creed; someone who is very good at commanding armies but isn't that great in direct combat. Ah well.
Leadership-wise she's been portrayed as ludicrously competent. It's only in the recent novellas that she's actually had a defeat. Before that there she won a string of stunning victories that seemed easy. Including commanding a Tau fleet against a splinter Tyranid fleet and destroying it without losing a ship. That's arguably excessive by itself let alone the fact that she shouldn't have been commanding the battle in the first place. That's the Air Caste's job!
Co'tor Shas wrote: So that means they don't "deserve" wins? Look at what had been sent after them. Nowhere near enough to kill them. The orks messed up the tau more than the imperium has at this point (the great war of confederation hit the tau harder than the imperium ever has). Although I do feel where you are coming from here.
While you have a point the Tau have routinely smashed the Imperium in most engagements. Aside from recent battles their losses are seldom suggested to have been large. Have the Imperial Guard ever beaten the Tau with Space Marine or Knight support?
Quickjager wrote:To be fair the DE and Necron incidents were avoidable, but the Tau entered negotiations in bad faith themselves. Annnnd gak went down because of it, everyone was waiting to backstab the other side in those deals.
Not really. The Tau needed the Dark Eldar to defeat the Tyranids (I believe it's pretty much stated that they were going to lose otherwise. The Dark Eldar still did them a favour overall). Likewise without the Necrons the Tyranids would have consumed the world.
Triszin wrote:In regards to lore inwhich Tau get wiped and beat up bad, basically every time the Space Wolves fight the tau, the space wolves just wreck em
Conversely the Imperial Fists or their descendants will get slaughtered when they fight the Tau. But then that's pretty par for the course for Imperial Fists.
On a personal side note I am also, personally, just happy to read Shadowsun being an unambiguous badass for once.
If we're going to talk about hard-done factions in the victories department I think the Eldar do take the cake. Despite have superior technology to all bar the Necrons, potent Psychic powers including foresight, centuries of experience and loyal soldiers they still routinely get either alright defeated or win pyrrhic victories. If anyone deserves to win most of the time it'd be them.
Yes, but that's kind of the Eldar's thing - if you get them in direct battle, they've already lost. Every time there's a battle that Eldar don't appear in, the Eldar win.
They likely retconned it but IIRC the Damocles Crusade was essentially a draw, with the Imperium withdrawing to deal with the Tyranids and the Tau pushing forward (which at the time was the Third Sphere Expansion I believe, but unless I'm mistaken back in my day it didn't have a name).
For all intents and purposes though it's a stalemate/Mexican standoff.
Furyou Miko wrote: Yes, but that's kind of the Eldar's thing - if you get them in direct battle, they've already lost. Every time there's a battle that Eldar don't appear in, the Eldar win.
123ply wrote: The reason for the IoM's stance as a "dying race on the verge of collapse" blah blah blah, is because they are the supreme power of the universe.
They are no such thing. The Imperium is the weakest faction in the setting, and the only one with no hope of victory (except maybe the Eldar, depending on how you define victory). They're just so unimaginably huge that destroying them takes a long time. But that doesn't make them the supreme power, it just means they have a lot of dying to do.
Orks and Tyranids beat the Imperium in sheer numbers. The Imperium can hold back the living tide here and there, at great cost in lives and equipment, but can only delay the inevitable and certainly can not ever defeat either species. The best they can possibly hope for is that the endless swarm turns its attention to other targets for a while.
Necrons beat the Imperium in an absurdly one-sided fight, once they recover their full power. The Imperium can barely survive against the very weakest advance scouts of the Necron threat, if/when they fully awaken the best the Imperium can hope for is that death is quick and painless.
Chaos is literally unbeatable. As long as humanity continues to exist so will Chaos. And, since Chaos transcends mortal concepts of time, even delaying a Chaos plot by a thousand years is the most trivial of setbacks. On the other hand, Chaos can probably never truly destroy humanity without destroying itself, so at least Chaos will not deliver the final blow to humanity as a species.
Eldar (and DE) beat the Imperium at even numbers, and win 99% of the time without ever firing a shot by manipulating events to their advantage. The only advantage the Imperium has is that the Eldar are also a dying race, and the Imperium's sheer size may allow it to endure longer than the Eldar.
Tau match or beat the Imperium at even numbers. Like the Eldar, the only advantage the Imperium has over the Tau is sheer size. But, unlike the Imperium, the Tau are continuing to advance their technology and will likely reach a point where even the Imperium's advantage in numbers can no longer accomplish anything besides getting lots of its own troops slaughtered. So, while the Imperium could beat the Tau now (at great cost elsewhere), this is a fleeting advantage and eventually the Tau will dominate the Imperium.
Triszin wrote: LOL @ the doom and gloom some of you guys and gals have. IoM is DOOMED, its INEVITABLE!!!
Yes, that would be the entire point of the setting. You do realize that the core rulebook (the starting point for all fluff) explicitly says "this is the age of dying, the end of humanity", right? The fundamental question the 40k setting asks is what price you would be willing to pay to buy a few more days of miserable life in the face of inevitable death. Allowing the Imperium to have any hope of winning directly contradicts that point.
I know who doesn't win - we , the fans of the 40k background.
Basically GW is on a crappy course of 1up's for any thing you are meant to buy.
There are reasons why someone would have faction A or Faction B win.
Silly Reasons like adding another kaldor Draigo because someone at GWHQ lacks selfcontrol and is championing 1 Faction in 40k.
Buisness as a motivator behind everything, when Sales pitch replaces storytelling and the most recent plastic kit gains auto-wins... look no further than offerings of the past years.
But it is possible to have positive factors, when someone has a clue what makes a story interesting and we get a believable back and forth, in the end handed over to us to "play it to its conclusion".
I just doubt GW cares anymore about their IP beyond C&D nonsense. Creativity? a rich background and lots of mysteries? a nice sandbox for the players? Thats not the aim of GW anymore IMHO.
They are off to Buy our campaign boxes, pay for snippets, and bigger and more expansive is better.
Now, why should or shouldn't a certain faction win?
Think about the setup.
GW added a xeno faction in 2001 AD. They had multiple concepts and two of them made it into the finals. Tau and Kroot. Yes . Kroot were not a smallish one unit deal like Ratlings or ogryns are for the IG.
Tau started with 2 spheres of expansion, one ally who joined their military operations ( the Kroot ). As characters O'shovah, Aun'shi in their codex and Angkhor Prok IIRC in chapter approved they got this Kroot character. Several Kroot units because they were a "half" of the medal of technical Tau and barbaric Kroot. GW supported the new army with a WD article and told everyone where the inspiration came from, what the plan was ( big fish in small pond ), how they balanced the suits etc.
But still, the Tau had a new guys on the block feel and their theme didn't receive praise only. "Take your noblebright out of my grimdark".....
First dex, first map. 8 major Septs 7 new Septs, 15 Worlds Tau, 10 Planets for Kroot, about 4 Planets of the Farsight Enclaves. Colony or 1st phase: 100k , Colony 2nd phase: 10-10k. Humans "invading" , Tyranids invading and Orks present.
First take on the Damocles gulf story. Tau and Humans meet and both don't know each other well. Tau haven't realized what the IoM is, their contact was backwater planets and thus Humans who aren't really a good representation what you are running into beyond this gulf. I would also like to point out Damocles. Damocles was known for the sword above his head... that may come down on him... just saying.
GW decided to add the Tau with warp-storm protection into the 40k verse and put them far east on the galactic map. This has the advantage of keeping the Tau alive pre-space faring ( warp-storms ) and saves them from too much attention by major factions of the 40k verse. But, there are big disadvantages too. How do you get Tau into a campaign in this Galaxy when they are stuck at the eastern fringe? Anybody else is either found almost everywhere or mobile enough to get there. Tau aren't.
A "new empire" , not very mobile and far out on a Galactic map cannot be a real threat to the established major players. So regional "wins" are all that may happen. But should they?
Every faction needs something going on for them, and since GW cannot get over themselves and tell us about Tau vs to this day unknown other xenos, it will be Tau vs Orks or Tyranids or Humans.
Ork and Tyranids are available at different "threat-levels" , like Good Rpgs provide opposition which isn't unbeatable , so there is no Problem if no one expects Tau to easily beat ghazzy himself and friends or a major Hive fleet at full strength.
Humans are available as non-imperial or barely keeping ties to the IoM and the known system of escalation of the IoM itself is based on local-regional-up to segmentum sized responses. Again, nothing says you have to put the Tau into a position where they have to fight a dedicated crusade.
The original Damocles gulf material was exactly a first contact where Tau learned there are powers out there who can kick them back and come to play right into the Tau Empire itself. No real harm done, both sides got their variant of the story.
Next Tau dex. ( 2005 ? )
Now we have 3 spheres of expansion, and 2 new colonies . Kroot and Farsight enclaves didn't change. But they found the Vespids. And the Vespids are moar loyal than Kroot , so moar trustworthy.... really?
What else happend? O shovah stays, Aun shi is out, Aun Va is in. Plus O'shaserra. So the mess of the Storyline begins.
Kroot are just 1 unit now, same for the new Vespids. Any other xeno ? No. Focus is on Tau.
Aun Va want to replace Farsight with Shadowsun and the Tau have to keep their unfounded faith in manifest destiny, so AunVa starts a war with the Humans. Because you don't focus on orks or nids or chaos, or try to let the crons sleep. No, piss on the Emperors lawn it is. Threats who may bring your Empire down because they like it that way, get ignored. Humans who would leave you alone, get attacked. Nothing bad is coming from this...right?
Looking at the map there hasn't much changed. Tau got a few planets. ( and awful fluff of a "quality", I deem worthy of use as a script for dictators like KJU to use in a speech. ) My Impression is, the Problems begin here.
And another Tau codex. ( 2012 ).
Seems Tau get something from GW regularly.
The usual suspects are in, O'shovah, o'shasserra, Aun Va, Aun Shi is back, another Tau char is in too and a vehicle upgrade character this time. One of Kroot , one of Vespid but no other non-Tau unit. Codex informs us how happy the Tau are to have the Kroot bolster their numbers. Happy maybe, but units? Just 1 ?
Etherals gain new ability. Elements to call upon...which is totally not related to the warp...
The Map got no new Sept compared to the former dex. But 2 xeno worlds, Greet and Nagi ( mind worms, so they can wind-morm in the etherals service..). Kroot lost something? Did count only 8 where the had 10 before.
Tau meet Necrons but cannot identify them ( CanoVar ). Lots of Tau vs nids where non'tau save the Tau ( but often just temporary so they can undo the Tau themselves . Humans, Crons De etc ).
There is some "losses" but all of them are somehow "explained" as acceptable . I'd say too much etheral kool aid there.
Currently, Tau have a "new dex" , or an Update? soon. I have not seen any quote or pic of the background myself yet. But I don't think the level of "autowinbutton" style fluff is going to be sustainable. 40k and many faction exist for decades. Product lines can get updates/recuts, but new things aren't unlimited. Tau had the good position of slots to fill with GW's current main love, big plastic kits. They got support-fluff ( and IMHO bad fluff ) to sell those new shinies but ultimately there is only one end waiting:
GW can't have Orks and chaos and nids etc as important and dangerous and never achieving much but small Tau at the border of the Galaxy get everything their way. Its like watching a train on its way to that bridge where we see the bridge is" incomplete" and there is a fall coming. GW has to stop this nonsense.
If I had to bet, mine would be on AunVa and friends are violently relieved of their duties ( either by IoM or Farsight ) and the release we are having which deals with the time after the campaign is IG. Emperors Hammmer hitting home this time.
Should be safe to assume we get a 3rd player in the storyline so the Tau can stay and nothing is too different. ( except palpatine Va is gone for good. ).
Who should win?
Anyone who likes stories worth reading.
Anemone wrote: So the Obsidian Knight died? Or did just the Machine blow up?
123ply wrote: And did the Obsidian Knight get killed? Are you serious?
Co'tor Shas wrote: I don't see how it's that surprising that the knight got killed. The tau do have anti-titian weapons you know. Although GW writers seem to forget, because they are from FW.
The Obsidian Knight was never actually shown dying. The Tau were actually unable to penetrate his shield and so ended up shooting at the ground which caused him to fall into an abyssal pit as the ground gave way. Now, I wouldn't call bs if he did turn out to be dead, but falling into a dark hole is a pretty big survival flag in my eyes.
Furyou Miko wrote: It hasn't been exactly the same for 10k years, though.
At the end of the Horus heresy, the Imperium controlled half the habitable worlds in the galaxy and a good chunk of the inhabitable ones.
Now they barely control a million worlds total.
Not quite.
Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:Despite the changes in belief and the replacement of logic with faith, or perhaps because
of such unorthodox implementations, Humanity has not just survived the many disasters,
heresies, and invasions that have plagued it over the millennia; it has managed to grow
amidst the ruins. The realm of Mankind has never been larger, its borders never wider.
Honestly all this talk of the Ethereals all being killed is very surprising. Has GW ever killed off the entire leadership caste, in the current time line, of one of the major factions and had the entire faction die or narrowly avoid death because a third party saved them? I certainly can't think of a time that has ever happened to the forces of Chaos, Orks, Tyranids, Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperium or Necron. I suppose some instances like Iyanden come close but...they didn't need a third faction to save them and just because the head Farseer died didn't change that they'd already established three potent successor characters to him and the entire leadership circle wasn't killed alongside him. Honestly the Tau are as legitimate an army as any other in this hobby, they got fans who play them cause they are cool and like them and thus want their fluff to be about them winning and being awesome some of the time, as Imperial Players we don't have a monopoly on winning Narrative Campaigns. Again, I'm sorry, but I can't buy all this complaining about the Imperium losing to the Tau until someone can demonstrate that the Imperium hasn't already won virtually every narrative campaign in the setting. Until that time, when another faction gets to win a narrative campaign at last, good for them. Lets share the awesomeness rather than simply hogging it for one faction. The Tau's victories are still a drop in the ocean compared to Macragge, Ichar, Piscina, 2nd and 1st Armageddon, Pandorax, Damnos, Sanctus Reach to name but a few. The Imperium winning is so common a feature of this game that, to the entire fanbase, it has become predictable. Apparently so much so that I now see it is starting to be accepted as an inviolable part of the canon and any major loss (which to be fair Prefectia isn't even in the grand scheme of things very important) is considered unacceptable. A pity.
@RandomEvilGuy: Shadowsun's barely explicated wins against background threats don't interest me much. They are no different to the long, very long, list of threats and enemies Logan and Marneus and such have wiped out. The difference, I suppose, is that in Logan's case we got in depth information about them in his Great Company's Supplement and the myriad ways he outsmarted and defeated Orks, Chaos, Eldar not to mention beating Imotekh whilst not even setting out for that reason. I'll admit I think having Shadowsun credited with a Fleet victory was poor writing, totally agree with that, but I definitely haven't in fluff gained the impression she's anymore impressive than any other major 'genius' special character flying around in the setting who have huge lists of victory's to their names. People like Dante, Logan, Sicarius, Ragnar, Ventris, Ciaphas and such all have long lists of victories against all sorts of foes which I find no less or more impressive than Shadowsun's own list. On the other hand Shadowsun, in all major appearances till now, has tended to suck when the story revolved around her or, at best, is heavily undermined within the story when it focuses on her. From Agrellan and the need to have Ko'sarro constantly get the better of her to Aun'va's scolding and losing at Voltoris to Last of Kiru's Line having her multiple times be at the mercy of a simply Guardsman. Like I said before; imagine any Space Marine Special Character in their novel series and appearances having their major victory, in the book, be immediately followed by a military defeat or being at the mercy of a group of Chaos Cultists or Ork Boyz. Shadowsun is the headline character for her faction; the Logan, Swarmlord, Marneus, Dante or Eldrad, I'd prefer she kick as much ass as them.
I do agree I wish the Eldar would win battles though. I really, really feel sorry for my friends who play Eldar. Like I said this complaining about the Tau victory on Prefectia doesn't take into account perspective. The vast majority of factions beside the Imperium, and to a lesser extent recently the Tau, still do nothing but lose most of the time. If we are going to condemn it, sure fine, but then lets be fair about it and start with the biggest culprit before moving on to the Tau.
@1hadhq: Personally as a fan of the 40k background I felt it was quite in vogue for how they do things. Having read Sanctus Reach, Damnos and Pandorax this seemed no different to me. Unfortunately you are not the designated arbiter of quality in Warhammer 40k nor the appointed spokesperson of the entire fanbase so I hardly think you can make the call as to the overall significance of this to the entire community.
As an aside, again, the only reason Faction A or B wins is because GW chooses to. GW is running a game, a hobby, and the idea is to let players and members of this hobby enjoy themselves, all members off the hobby not just a specific clientele and group of players, that's what it comes down to.
Additionally championing 1 faction, I presume of course then you are referring to the Imperium from whence Marneus and Kaldor originally came? Additionally as Shadowsun fought a Daemon Primarch yet? An Avatar of Khaine? Been trapped in the Warp and personally attacked the domains of the four Chaos Gods within the Warp? I believe you are using Hyperbole here. Like I said if we are going to be upset at a faction being 'championed' then we shouldn't be hypocritical about it. The Imperium has been 'championed' far longer and more frequently than the Tau.
I'm not going to delve into your analysis of the setup, its riddled with assumptions like the 'Kroot and Vespid had to be developed further' and blatant statements which don't bear worth dealing in a story like 40k where all factions are far more monstrous and immoral than our own.
I did like what you pointed out about Damocles though. A pity you automatically assumed it had to be directed at the Tau rather than the fact that it could be referring to either them or the Imperium. But again, an assumption, your position here is clear.
Also I am baffled at having problems with Tau fighting the Imperium, Orks and Tyranids. You seem to imply that this is somehow wrong or that GW had an onus to show the Tau fighting other alien races. Yet...fighting the playable factions is virtually all anyone does. Obviously. Its a hobby and game with only a set number of playable factions. Of course they get far more attention and role in the plot.
Additionally the attempt to moralize here, imply Aun'va some kind of ultimate bad guy, or be upset that it was the Imperium and not Orks or Nids that got attacked is confusing. GW wants the Tau and the Imperium to fight. Thematically they are meant to mirror each other; a stagnant current empire against a dynamic new one. That's why parallels between the Tau and the Great Crusade are constantly drawn. GW wants the fight for thematic purposes (and since the GW wants its players to all be able to fight each other, hence every faction is given a reason to fight each other). You can feel its stupid, that's fine a lot of stuff in the setting is explicitly meant to be stupid, but that doesn't make it wrong or right or determine if it should have been done.
Also to even bring something like North Korea into it is, honestly, just not a viable comparison. What is KJU worth 'quality' the Guard's Uplifting Primer? But I won't delve further into that line, its just bound to lead to huge issues.
Also...so the Ethereals got a new power. Okay fine, its weird I'll grant, but what does it matter? You act as if its some kind of objective negative or degradation of the plotline. Its just a weird power, probably comparable to Commands, given to the Ethereals to give them utility as support figures. The warp has nothing to do with it.
Also I don't remember Cano'Var, the Adeptus Mechanicus defeat or the numerous defeats by the Space Wolves ever ending with the lines; 'but the Tau felt the loss was acceptable' it tended to just end with the defeat being explained. Then, further on that point, all losses suffered by factions in the current setting are 'acceptable' the Imperium doesn't at the end of their defeats have a section saying 'oh now, all has changed, the Imperium itself now is collapsing' not even the Eldar, who's survival is meant to be precarious, get little lines of each defeat saying how everything has changed. The game has a status quo, one of allowing all players to enjoy playing their army because it is fun and all players matter equally, the Tau defeats change as little their circumstances as do the defeats of the Imperium or any other faction. Calling out the Tau for this alone, again, is hypocritical.
Ultimately you seem to also just have a personal problems with the Ethereals. Much of this consisted purely of jokes aimed at them with little justification for the comparison. That's fine, obviously, I don't like the Chaos Gods or most Space Marines much, I prefer the Guard and Sisters, everyone can dislike who they want. But I don't really see the point for the discussion in bringing it up so much.
Ultimately who should win? As a general question? Preferably all factions will get to have wins.
All factions should have wins. All factions should have multiple wins against each other is what I think, but what I'm trying to say about this whole Tau vs Imperium thing, is that the Tau wins too much! It's acceptible when you have two races going back and fourth, constantly scrapping with each other, but until recently, any defeat the Tau suffered against their nemesis was either because it was all part of Shadow sun's plan, or it was such a small defeat/ battle that it doesn't matter or is just un interesting.
I feel like the Orks, and to an extent, the Tyranids, are two kind of "npc" factions. They're the races, especially orks, that other races can fight and win against constantly and it'll seem okay. Atleast in my opinion. The Tau, IoM, Eldar, Crons, are all the "playable characters," and because of that, I don't think anybody would want to read about their character repeteadly getting bullied by another character. So yeah, that's my other 25 cents on it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:Despite the changes in belief and the replacement of logic with faith, or perhaps because
of such unorthodox implementations, Humanity has not just survived the many disasters,
heresies, and invasions that have plagued it over the millennia; it has managed to grow
amidst the ruins. The realm of Mankind has never been larger, its borders never wider.
I've never actually read that, but I guess it goes against what a bunch of people here were saying, so yay to humans.
The reason I like the IoM is because they're humans. I used to love any alien race and would automatically think any human faction was boring. 40k changed my opinion on that, now the humans in any setting are the ones who get my attention first.
If the Imperium could ever concentrate on just one enemy at a time, that enemy would be basically screwed. the tau are still pint sized as an empire, the necrons arent even awake yet, that and noone really likes anybody else int he galaxy.
@123ply: As I said I think you, and many other Imperium fans, are overreacting a bit. The Tau have, talking about Agrellan and Prefectia now, won 2 victories against the Imperium of import (itself a relative term since Agrellan and Prefectia are still considered highly unimportant by the Imperium at large. They cannot, for example, be compared to Cadia, Mars, Armageddon, Macragge or any Chapter Homeworld really). That is only 2 planets. That's pretty small in the grand scheme of things. For example I can give you two example where the Adeptus Mechanicus in their Codex claim a Tau World and where the Space Wolves do. Based on that we are 2 planets for 2 planets already. However Agrellan and Prefectia had narrative supplements dedicated to them, hence why it can appear as if the Tau are being incredibly successful, but in reality all that has happened in these narrative supplements is that the Imperium has not won (as it does in every single other narrative supplement it appears in). For example take away Agrellan and the Tau automatically have not got a single major victory against the Imperium and the Imperium loses its only recent significant defeat at all. As you, and many, have pointed out the next book will probably follow the incredibly predictable format of a Chapter with a Codex (Blood Angels, Dark Angels an Space Wolves) or the Ultramarines arriving and beating the Tau. As it has happened in every single narrative supplement other than Agrellan. I cannot stress this enough but, though I understand you dislike the Imperium losing, no one else comes close to winning as often as the Imperium at all. The Tau have conquered two planets. That's it. They weren't even confronted by enormous forces. Perspective is really necessary here particularly since it seems many Imperium players believe the reciprocal and fair course of the fluff to take after the Tau conquer 2 minor planets is for the entire Tau Empire to be removed or changed as a playable faction in the game with numerous fans who enjoy it.
Then, to perhaps help console you, the Tau have not suffered only 'minor' defeats. Voltoris is explicitly considered by the Tau a major and humiliating defeat. Even the 1st Damocles Crusade threw the Tau back all the way to their Septworlds. These are major defeats. Shadowsun's plans refers to 2 planets, again perspective is necessary since it isn't as prevalent as it appears, Agrellan and Prefectia. Additionally, as is repeated consistently, the next book will almost certainly have Shadowsun again lose and be pathetic so that Farsight can be demonstrated as superior to her in some capacity. Like Agrellan it is unlikely that Shadowsun will simply maintain her win record, Shadowsun almost always follows up a narrative victory with a major and humiliating defeat. She is not a Space Marine Chapter Master who will wipe out several Waaaghs, clever Eldar Plots and Chaos Warbands. She is doing well for the Tau, which seems only fair considering she's meant to be their top-tier character, but she still lags far behind the achievements of any Space Marine Chapter Master with a Model and numerous Imperium Main Characters in novels.
As for your comment on the Orks and Nids, well, of course you're welcome to it and I understand where you are coming from but I can say that as someone who has talked to a lot of Ork players, like my brother, it doesn't console you knowing your the 'NPC' faction who exists to make everyone else look cooler. Orks and Nids want awesome moments too, and moments where they can achieve lasting victories. Ghazghkull is a classic example of this since he's meant to be an intimidating and deadly enemy but, to be honest, he's only ever achieved on significant victory at all; Golgotha. Even against Leviathan he simply stopped Octarius being destroyed immediately, the Supplement makes clear that the battle will not be ending with an Ork victory. Compare this to the Imperium's destruction of 2 Major Hive Fleets already. More worryingly, to me, is that Golgotha is pretty much Ghazghkull's only claim to fame and...it was written out of his own supplement. Doesn't even get mentioned. So, to be honest, I can't agree with your position. Orks and Tyranids deserve to win campaigns and wars too (and for the love of the Emperor somebody let Ghazghkull win something).
Honestly, I think Agrellan and Prefectia are going to go right back to Imperial hands in the next book, and things are going to look Grim for the Tau Empire.
Which is when Farsight swoops in, stops the Crusade in it's tracks, and forces the Imperials to stop themselves from digging any deeper into Tau territory, and perhaps reclaiming a few worlds as the Imperials withdraw. Farsight is the returning hero of the Tau, and it causes tension within the Fire Caste as those who support the Mont'ka (Farsight) are at odds with those who prefer Kauyon (Shadowsun).
Though I could see the Imperials putting up a huge fight that the Tau probably wouldn't see as worth it over Agrellan and Prefectia if war came back to it.
I'm personally hoping, as a person who cheers for the Tau (whenever it isn't versus Imperials >.> that Farsight manages to orchestrate the death of Aun'va. Shake things up a bit, put the Greater Good more in the hands of the Earth, Water, FIre and Air castes rather than the holier than thou Ethereals.
Yeah I imagine that is what's going to happen, disappointing to since it'll effectively again make it that the Impreium can't lose anything and that no faction other than the Imperium can win lasting victories, talk about stuck in the status quo, it'll be literally a matter of saying; 'you know those two whole narrative supplements that surprised you? Well they're meaningless, Imperium wins anyway'. I'd dislike it but, as I've said, the Imperium winning is so predictable an outcome to anything in the setting that honestly I imagine that's how it's going to go. They might let the Tau keep Agrellan, since it's a Septworld now, but I doubt they'll keep Prefectia, that'd mean letting Shadowsun have a lasting victory in the narrative. A pity too since Shadowsun's only major triumph is going to serve purely to demonstrate how much better Farsight is. But yeah that is probably how it'll go.
Yeah I'm noticing a lot of dislike of the Tau is on Aun'va and Shadowsun. Honestly never bothered me, Ethereals fit with the Tau fluff, were there from the beginning, and Aun'va's only big crime I can see is that he talks about the Tau having a right to unite the Galaxy the way the Imperium talks about having a right to scour all non-human life from it. But as I said everyone's free to dislike who they want, I can't stand the Chais Gods and most named Space Marines.
Still depressing to think that we'll be back at the 'Imperium always wins' point soon. So much for giving another faction shine.
1hadhq wrote: Angkhor Prok IIRC in chapter approved they got this Kroot character.
Close enough, he was the Games Day miniature the year the Tau were released.
Animus wrote:
Not quite.
Warhammer 40,000 7th edition rulebook wrote:Despite the changes in belief and the replacement of logic with faith, or perhaps because
of such unorthodox implementations, Humanity has not just survived the many disasters,
heresies, and invasions that have plagued it over the millennia; it has managed to grow
amidst the ruins. The realm of Mankind has never been larger, its borders never wider.
Oh. Well. That's a gakky retcon that completely changes the entire feel of the setting from grimdark into... unfortunate implications...in one short paragraph.
If the Imperium is winning, that means that all of their human rights violations, all of their evil religious fascism, all of the torture and eugenics and slavery is not merely the best that can be done for survival, but it actually a winning strategy and therefore to be applauded.
If I wasn't convinced that it's a case of the executives not thinking things through, I'd be pretty disgusted with the company. That's the sort of thing that gets social justice warriors trying to ban things.
Furyou Miko wrote: Oh. Well. That's a gakky retcon that completely changes the entire feel of the setting from grimdark into... unfortunate implications...in one short paragraph.
If the Imperium is winning, that means that all of their human rights violations, all of their evil religious fascism, all of the torture and eugenics and slavery is not merely the best that can be done for survival, but it actually a winning strategy and therefore to be applauded.
If I wasn't convinced that it's a case of the executives not thinking things through, I'd be pretty disgusted with the company. That's the sort of thing that gets social justice warriors trying to ban things.
So the social justice warriors would be happy if the Imperium was losing? The narrative has to actively codemn the Imperium's governing system for it to be socially acceptable?
The Imperium is the way it is beacuse of the (grimdark) times. It's not like humanity didn't try to do better (Great Crusade and all that), it's just that everything went to hell and this is how the Imperium has managed to hang on. You still have individuals trying to do good (like in Gaunt's Ghosts and so on). That's where a lot of the appeal of the setting comes from. True heroes only arise in times of great adversity. It'd be a bit boring if the Imperium was super nice (and winning because its niceness).
And it's got nothing to do with corporate executives. The setting's always been this way. It's an eternity of war, not 10k years and then humanity loses. The galaxy's one big statemate between the factions trying to tear each other apart.
123ply wrote: The reason for the IoM's stance as a "dying race on the verge of collapse" blah blah blah, is because they are the supreme power of the universe.
They are no such thing. The Imperium is the weakest faction in the setting, and the only one with no hope of victory (except maybe the Eldar, depending on how you define victory). They're just so unimaginably huge that destroying them takes a long time. But that doesn't make them the supreme power, it just means they have a lot of dying to do.
That's the first time I've heard this assertion. The narrative disagrees. And that's a very odd definition of "weak." Not being able to win does not equal "weakest." And giving the Tau a better chance at victory in the setting is just plain unrealistic. Their goal is to spread to the Greater Good to the rest of the galaxy after all. Not. going. to. happen. And Tau dominating the Imperium? No, if the Imperium falls, it will have nothing to do with the Tau.
A moral discussion about Warhammer 40k, even though I really have things I'd like to say, is something I'll try just to ignore since I've been in enough discussions of morality on the net to know that it'll just be disturbing rather than interesting. Putting aside the idea that the Imperium can't change its ways or has to act absolutely in the manner it does, which is just not true, I'll focus on some factual points which are more easily engaged in;
The Great Crusade wasn't much better for anyone except humans who met the Imperium's criteria of 'human enough'. Reading the Horus Heresy I was even disappointed that instead of a Tau-like effort to engage with aliens peacefully and invite them into a confederation we have the Imperium be xenocidal from the very beginning and wipe out entire alien civilizations, and humans too, simply for their existence. The Great Crusade really wasn't much better for anyone who wasn't a 'good enough human' than now. The Imperium toasted entire alien and abhuman populations as a matter of course then and it still does now, back then it was simply more expansionistic. The Great Crusade, sadly, isn't even as nice as the Tau despite all their own failings and immoralities. At least the Tau were able to get allies and other aliens peacefully living alongside them such as the Kroot, Jia'trix, Demiurge, Nicassar and such. The Imperium even wiped out a democratic system just because the humans lived alongside aliens there, not the Interex there's another who's name I'm now forgetting who two of the Primarchs wiped out. So the Great Crusade was, sadly, not much better for anyone who the Imperium didn't consider 'human enough'. Disappointing too since I had hoped the Great Crusade would have been far more akin to the Tau Empire in behaviour, as prior discussions of the way in which they mirrored each other had implied. Tragically I suppose it was felt that having the focus of the Horus Heresy be on anything but humans would have been too distracting and thus we never see the Imperium attempt to confederate with alien races like the Tau do. I suppose Horus makes an attempt with the Interex but, by his own admission, only because the Imperium is now 'strong enough' to tolerate negotiations. He makes clear that it is only because of their dominant position that he will even deign it and his own men make clear that their preferred and standard response was simply to wipe out all life. Fulgrim's men make the same point later too.
Also, to be fair, these 'nicer' human heroes we speak of...I honestly still don't know any of them who've expressed any kind of opposition to the official state ideology of murder every baby, woman, invalid and non-combatant who isn't a human. So...nice is a very relative concept here.
After that, to be honest, one quote doesn't change the entire setting. There have been mountains of quotes in the past saying; 'mankind is doomed, all hope is lost, they are but a shadow of their former selves, a crumbling empire,' as I said before GW is not really good at consistency at all. That's just a fact. If we accept some fluff as canon we have to accept it all...which, yes, does mean we're often going to have to accept contradictory situations. The Imperium can both be at its greatest extent and its lowest extent, Orks can both be incapable of feeling fear and then in some Codexes and books very clearly feel fear and such and such. The important point is that one quote doesn't automatically invalidate all others. We have a clash of fluff. A common enough occurrence in 40k.
As for the last part, really, I just never got what was fun or enjoyable about going 'your faction sucks, mine rocks, your guys are weak and pathetic, mine dominate'. I like all the factions to be honest. All of them have fun aspects, all of them have cool aesthetics, and I respect that all of them have nice people playing them who deserve to be able to enjoy their game, including the fluff about their faction. The game doesn't exist to cater to the desires of a single group. But then again, like I said, I never got any fun out of putting other people's army's down as being 'insignificant' or such. I'd hope it'd be obvious that everyone has significance. Hence why we play with them and enjoy it. To feel cool and have a good time.
Also, to be fair, these 'nicer' human heroes we speak of...I honestly still don't know any of them who've expressed any kind of opposition to the official state ideology of murder every baby, woman, invalid and non-combatant who isn't a human. So...nice is a very relative concept here.
There are not any - even people like Cain and Amberley who are calm, pragmatic and relatively easy going still see nothing wrong with killing non humans, in fact they are reassured by seeing cadets using criminals as target practice / for practice interrogation and fondly recall a childhood where their picture books had heretics being burnt alive.
But that's the universe they live in - where they are the "nice guys"....
I did think it was interesting that Shadowsun's Ethereal master is (in the novels at least) increasingly portrayed as similar to corrupt Imperial Governors - arrogant, cowardly, self obsessed and unwilling to listen to advice from his underlings. He keeps pushing her buttons and perhaps Farsight may convert her to his side when the Tau civil war gets started.
It would be interesting to see a Tau Empire discovering quite how big the universe is, having to deal with more and more psykes and warp incursions, AI rebellions (especially if they get possessed), attention from truly deadly predators like the Necrons and more raids by the Dark Eldar.
Would they crumble and fragment or grow stronger......................
There's an already in place that could serve as catalyst for that. On the outskirts of the tau empire, on the edge of the galaxy, there is a place in the vacuum prone to warp invasion, to the point where there is a permanent air-caste presence their to stop it. It's old fluff, but it still checks out.
As for Aun'va, yeah, in the novels at least he is presented very negatively. To the point where, in all fairness, he comes across as an idiot. Shadowsun can literally be demolishing an entire enemy world and all he does is complain. Its a little frustrating, not cause he's a jerk that's fine, but that he's portrayed as incredibly idiotic. The Farsight Enclaves Supplement was a bit kinder to him, had Farsight realize that he's actually very wise and, though incredibly cold, very efficient in his plans. But the novels have him be kind of, as you say, a glory hog.
Personally nuanced depictions are far from common in the setting, so I don't expect them much, but Aun'va gets somewhat irritating to me too mostly because he's stupid. That he's an donkey-cave is fine, he oversees an expansionistic empire so he's always going to be an donkey-cave to an extent, but I get tired of how pointlessly dumb he is. I'd prefer a depiction as in the Farsight Enclaves of a highly patriotic and clever donkey-cave.
Hopefully Shadowsun can be written as not needing her male counterpart to save her or show her the way, I say hopefully because I'm already resigned to the fact that it will almost certainly happen, but hopefully she can achieve something lasting on her own eventually. Its really juvenile, I'm aware, but being a girl myself Sisters initially did definitely appeal to me because they were female. Shadowsun's probably the only female in the setting who can kick any kind of major ass right now and even then she's far from a Farsight or any named Imperium Hero.
Oh. Well. That's a gakky retcon that completely changes the entire feel of the setting from grimdark into... unfortunate implications...in one short paragraph.
If the Imperium is winning, that means that all of their human rights violations, all of their evil religious fascism, all of the torture and eugenics and slavery is not merely the best that can be done for survival, but it actually a winning strategy and therefore to be applauded.
If I wasn't convinced that it's a case of the executives not thinking things through, I'd be pretty disgusted with the company. That's the sort of thing that gets social justice warriors trying to ban things.
I don't think it's a retcon. I never remember the Imperium at the time of the Horus Heresy being so large as half of all inhabitable worlds.
Anyway, the Imperium might do a lot of dark and crazy stuff but then the galaxy is a dark and crazy place.
I always thought this quote summed up the age of the Imperium beautifully. "In an hour of Darkness a blind man is the best guide. In an age of Insanity look to the madman to lead the way."
And who cares about what a bunch of social justice warriors with too much free time think?
We are literally the only faction that is consistently only shown fighting against insanely overwhelming enemy forces.
Grey Knights get a daemonic incursion, but they match the scary daemons toe to toe.
Guardsmen get a Tyranid hiveship limping after a huge battle.
Space Marines get a Tau hunter-cadre.
Sisters... get a whole Tyranid hive fleet. Or a fully awakened Necron tomb world. Or are a single convent against an entire planet's worth of Chaos marines.
No other army consistently faces the same insane odds in their battles. The only reason Sisters don't seem capable of kicking major arse is because they're constantly facing odds that would make Grey Knights wet themselves.
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
No, not at all. They would have done more damage (perhaps even taking Dal'yth it'self), but they were, far, far from defeating the tau as a whole. And the imperium wasn't doing too well in the waning days of the crusade either. Their orbital hold was beggining to weaken, and their momentum had been long run down. Even if they had won Dy'lath, that would have been the end of the crusade.
Edit: That being said, it was a brutal campaign, which hit the tau like nothing had ever hit before. It was there first look at what they imperium could bring to bear, and many things they had no effective counter for (titans, psykers, ect).
As an Imperial fan boy , I hate you and will disregard everything you said.
I'm kidding. I don't hate you but I can honestly say I consider my self an IoM fanboy. I really don't think that we would have been stopped on Dy'lath, I really do think the Imperium would have won. Based in what I read from the Warhammer wiki, it seemed like we still had more juice to go before we were to be stopped, but then again, the Tau did not yet have counters to some of our things like titans and super heavies as you said. The Tau now have crazy riptides, and the Stormsurge is defiantly going to waste a lot of armour everywhere they're mentioned. Because of inferiority if the Tau if you compared them then to now, I think the guard would have eventually pushed through Dy'lath. Though I could say things would have been different if that battle were to have taken place in current times where the Tau have developed immensely...
But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore. We had so much trouble taking out crisis suits, now those guys have riptides and giant ghost battlesuits I can't see the Imperium winning anymore. Sure we outnumber you like 50 to 1, but we're stretched so thinly and ha e so much more to deal with that there would be never enough manpower to shred the Tau cheese. The only way to win is if GW and BL writers didn't underpowered the Guard. I remember in this ine short story, about 50 leman russet got crushed by a riptide and a team of broadsides. How in hell's name is that possible? Every story I read where the Tau fight the IG, everything we have is crap. Our tanks are the Leman Russ Cardboard variants, our infantry die in droves like they're unarmed, and even Lascannon and battle cannon shots for whatever reason don't do any damage to battle suits. It was even stated in a WD that the battlesuits' shields can stop even baneblade shells, yet somehow pulse rifles can shred Astartes power armour like it's flak armour.
I just want to see the IoM demonstrated as the power houses they are to be. I want to see Leman Russe withstand missles and rail guns like they should. I want to see Autocannon and missle launchers actually damage battlesuits like they should, and our infantry being, I don't know, infantry? And not just men who shoot at the air and get killed by it.
Such a rant, but if the Guard can wreck the Eldar constantly, along with just about every other race (except Tyranids. Tyranids will always kill the gak out of us but that's acceptable imo.) What makes the Tau impervious to losing?
Pehaps they could have continued, but they wouldn't have got very far. Look where Dal'yth is in the tau empire.
Spoiler:
You would still have the vast majority of tau space to push trhough. Now this map is a bit bigger than what it was back then (this is mid-3rd, versus dal'yth which was late 2nd(?), but you get the picture.
It did, however, show something very important about the imperium. How much they underestimated the tau. They thought that crusade could kill the tau, but all that crusade's fighting was focused mainly in a single sept. It also shows how unprepared the tau were for an attack of that ferocity. They were used to dealing with local alien presence, an orks. They had never faced an enemy of that magnitude.
Looking at that chart I see a star lane running from Dal'ynth to the Tau homeworld with no intervening planets or defenses. So, the next battle would have been on the Tau version of Holy Terra, when they were already reeling from the Imperial onslaught. When Marine Dudes are running around you're home, capital planet and some Ordo Xeno guy in orbit is polishing the Exterminatus ordinance, I think that's a pretty bad day, even if you're the Tau.
I don't get how people are concluding that humanity is not the dominate race in the universe. The only reason the IOM has so many problems is because as the biggest and most united galaxy spanning empire that they have to deal with everyone wanting a piece of them. Being so big and based largely on planets they are constantly on the defensive.
HoundsofDemos wrote: I don't get how people are concluding that humanity is not the dominate race in the universe. The only reason the IOM has so many problems is because as the biggest and most united galaxy spanning empire that they have to deal with everyone wanting a piece of them. Being so big and based largely on planets they are constantly on the defensive.
That is exactly what I've been trying to say, and it's turns out that 1d4 Chan or whatever agrees too.
So Tau win a few victories, so what, the "grimdark" thing about tau is, they will never win in the long run, no matter what they do the universe will drag them down to the level of the other great powers, I personally see the tau as in the middle of their own great crusade, and if they ever become a real threat to the status quo, one of the major factions will come down on them hard, imagine if the chaos gods decide to take an interest in them!
Formosa wrote: So Tau win a few victories, so what, the "grimdark" thing about tau is, they will never win in the long run, no matter what they do the universe will drag them down to the level of the other great powers, I personally see the tau as in the middle of their own great crusade, and if they ever become a real threat to the status quo, one of the major factions will come down on them hard, imagine if the chaos gods decide to take an interest in them!
With the speed the Tau is advancing, it's not impossible for them to become the next super powers of the galaxy. I cam totally see them winning the great war of 40k but it'll be hard for them because of their numbers. Thing is though, the Tau are populating more and more world's as we know it and getting more and more powerful for each passing battle.
If one of the bigger factions put they're weight on them, they could be crushed, but it's hard for more other contenders to do that, unlike the Tau themselves who can actually go almost full force because of their small borders and minimal amount of territory and world's to contend for. And as for the chaos gods- maybe, but chaos had been trying for a pretty long time to take down humanity and, although are slowly crippling them, are getting beaten back regularly. Check out the famous cadian quote where a cadian or Inquisition (?) Claims he/she stops 10p active chaos cults a day. Most of the chaos incursions are small, insignificant cults that huddle around in a hood who commit blaspheme for whatever their personal reasons. I always imagined most chaos cults to be like an aggressive street gang, while the bigger ones are like the bloods or crops facing off against the police, or the Gators I'm Toronto, who were known to be pretty damn violent, when they were still terrorizing the city
So It's unlikely they can win, but it's certainly not impossible.
@RandomEvilGuy: Shadowsun's barely explicated wins against background threats don't interest me much. They are no different to the long, very long, list of threats and enemies Logan and Marneus and such have wiped out. The difference, I suppose, is that in Logan's case we got in depth information about them in his Great Company's Supplement and the myriad ways he outsmarted and defeated Orks, Chaos, Eldar not to mention beating Imotekh whilst not even setting out for that reason. I'll admit I think having Shadowsun credited with a Fleet victory was poor writing, totally agree with that, but I definitely haven't in fluff gained the impression she's anymore impressive than any other major 'genius' special character flying around in the setting who have huge lists of victory's to their names. People like Dante, Logan, Sicarius, Ragnar, Ventris, Ciaphas and such all have long lists of victories against all sorts of foes which I find no less or more impressive than Shadowsun's own list. On the other hand Shadowsun, in all major appearances till now, has tended to suck when the story revolved around her or, at best, is heavily undermined within the story when it focuses on her. From Agrellan and the need to have Ko'sarro constantly get the better of her to Aun'va's scolding and losing at Voltoris to Last of Kiru's Line having her multiple times be at the mercy of a simply Guardsman. Like I said before; imagine any Space Marine Special Character in their novel series and appearances having their major victory, in the book, be immediately followed by a military defeat or being at the mercy of a group of Chaos Cultists or Ork Boyz. Shadowsun is the headline character for her faction; the Logan, Swarmlord, Marneus, Dante or Eldrad, I'd prefer she kick as much ass as them.
I do agree I wish the Eldar would win battles though. I really, really feel sorry for my friends who play Eldar. Like I said this complaining about the Tau victory on Prefectia doesn't take into account perspective. The vast majority of factions beside the Imperium, and to a lesser extent recently the Tau, still do nothing but lose most of the time. If we are going to condemn it, sure fine, but then lets be fair about it and start with the biggest culprit before moving on to the Tau.
I can't help but notice that you listed a number of Space Marines and then Cain. Space Marines are widely ridiculed for having an excessive number of victories. Cain is a part of a not entirely serious series of books (and many would say that what occurs is badly written in them too). Space Marines, at least, are the elite of the elite of the Imperium. The Chapter Masters have centuries of experience. By contrast Shadowsun has precious little experience. Short periods between being put back into stasis (which realistically should be a drawback considering changing circumstances against even the Imperium). Most Space Marine characters aren't even portrayed as being great in, well, space as they should (considering they should do better there than on the ground). Whereas Shadowsun excels at both apparently. Her being outwitting by a Space Marine isn't really a drawback. Her being at the mercy of a Guardsman I have not read and would appreciate some quotation on if possible.
Either way, the problem seems to stem from how people view the Imperium. Space Marines are expected to do well. If they didn't they'd die out fast. They are, however, over portrayed. Most on this forum I think would agree with that. Aside from from the situation you have talked about however I have not heard of the Imperial Guard having the advantage over the Tau. This I would put at my main point actually. Space Marines are used too much by GW and by BL. As such the Imperium has an exaggerated number of wins. Take them away and the Tau seem to walk over the Imperium. I know the Imperial Guard are often defeated to make others (especially Space Marines) look better but it's still an issue I feel.
There's also the problem that the Tau method of absorbing other species', especially Humans, has not been elaborated on. If they don't do Psyker culls then they'd face dire peril as an example.
Co'tor Shas wrote: AFAIK, human captured planets are still mostly run by humans, at least for the day-to-day stuff, so they probably have similar watch procedures.
I highly doubt it.
There might be human "liaisons" who get to sit in on committee meetings, but the human populace will have zero real power. Only a token presence to make them feel included.
SomeRandomEvilGuy: The story where Shadow Sun is at the mercy of a guardsman is from the Anthology Shas'o, a short story which I'm pretty sure is "The last of Kiru's line." She and her prisoner, and maybe some firewarriors, are suddenly ambushed by stormtroopers and the regiments Colonial. Knowing she'd die in the shootout, she taunts the colonial into fighting her one on one, where the colonial kicks her ass despite her being in her XV22 battle suit. It makes sense I think because of the Tau's inferiority in melee. Well anyway, the prisoner comes to save the Commander, but the colonial also kicks his ass, then Shadow sun kills the colonial with her fusions blasters (I think) and then fires at the bridges ropes or whatnot, causing the bridge to collapse and let Shas'o something Ra and the prisoner escape. It was something along those lines but I can't get any quotes right now unfortunately.
What I'm really looking for is to see how the Imperium deals with battle suits, weather they just overwhelm them with fire power, if they need to outsmart them or whatever, I'm really interested in hearing about thay, but nothing cheesy hopefully.
Really, I like we'll written narratives. If the Imperium wins, cool. But if it's cheesy and they're written to be OP like in Imperial Glory, then it judt turns me off and I regard it as bogus.
@Furyou: Thanks for that, it is nice to hear, as a Sister player I have actually always sympathized with the Xenos and Chaos Players and the way they get their asses kicked all the time in the narrative. It is nice to hear something positive for a change.
Then on to the ret of what is being posted;
The fact that a single non-Imperium faction is doing ok (and note the Tau are only doing ok since in the 40k-story 2 planets are insignificant statistically) and it results in calls for the entire faction to be wiped out has always bugged me. I'll admit I enjoyed 40k when I discussed it with my friends and read about it but the internet is rapidly turning me off the fluff. If not a single non-Imperium faction is permitted to win narrative supplements with lasting consequence...then I don't really have an interest in the narrative.
After this I think I'm done in this thread, it's not even discussing the Prefectia battle anymore and is just becoming yet another 'our faction rocks, yours is irrelevant' experiment in counter factual history. I've never enjoyed doing that to anyone so I'm not going to respond to those at all. It has no merits in my eyes.
@123ply: Oh yes, I still owe you examples, can I then send you the book names with page numbers to find what you're looking for? Also how they handle them depends on the faction. The Space Wolves just engage them in combat and break them, the Mechanicus usually lose a guy and then shoot them with a high powered weapon, or in the short story I'm remembering I believe they use the Dragoons to kill them with a lance charge. Don't know what the 13th Penal Legion used, forgot that story's sequence of events.
@RandomEvilGuy: Well I did mention Eldrad and the Swarmlord too but, to be honest, since 80% of all major characters are Space Marines...I kind of have to mention them. To be fair the moment experience is dealt with realistically in Warhammer 40k enormous problems wI'll emerge. Dark Eldar and Eldar Aspect warriors hardly reflect several centuries old warriors. Glaring particularly in the case of Aspct Warriors who are several centuries old War Priests dedicated to a particular art form yet are at best usually described as having comparable skill to a Space Marine. Worse yet, if we want to handle experience realistically, Necrom characters should far outstrip what is shown (their age is actually mind boggling if you look at the dates) and the Silent King, who never even went to sleep, should have revolutionized the already incredible Necron technology considering how long he has been awake with time to watery (and he is described as already having a prodigious mind). Experience, particularly in the matter of age, isn't dealt with consistently in the fluff. Hence I have no problem expecting Shadowsun, as thor-tier character of a playable faction, to be comparable to the other top-tier characters from playable armies.
In Last of Kiru's line her guards a prisoner has her at gunpoint and it is made clear he could kill her if he wanted. He spares her so that she'll organize for the Tau army to evacuate his family. Later she is engaged in a fight with a colonel and only evades death because said prisoner intervenes to save her.
If you want more Guard beating Tau the novel Fire Caste is a good place to begin. Adeptus Mechanicus and Marines do it more often but Guard do it too. The 13th penal legion also successfully killed one of the Brightswords. If you want I can compile a list for you.
I agree wholeheartedly with the dislike of using Guard simply to make Marines appear cool. I dislike it when any faction is used as such. Strongly dislike it.
On the issue of psychic...we know Tau don't cull psychic races. The Nicassar are a psychic race, members of the empire, who we are told were quite happy to join. We are told the Tau conceal their existence from the Imperium exactly because they know the Imperium hates psychic aliens. Tau, it seems, have yet to have any trouble from this and we are told the Nicassar are a big part of the Tau merchant fleet. If I'm not mistaken the Nicassar are the aliens who were described as 'flat telekinetic polar bears' or such. Apparently they've yet to have a problem from this.
@Grey Templar: Why? Based on what do you assume this? We know Kroot effectively rule themselves still, their Shapers determine their course, and the Tau even do not prohibit or censor their cannibalism despite the Tau being officially opposed to it. In the Skilltaker short story we have a Gue'vesa officer who is promoted to lead a Hunter Cadre at the end. Look one shouldn't think that being part of the Tau Empire is like being a sovereign nation, your subordinate to the Empire, but you're definitely permitted more influence in decisions affecting your life than in any other major hegemon. The Tau hegemon is still immoral, it's just that compared to all other major hegemony it is the most moral alternative. A lesser evil.
@Grey Templar: Why? Based on what do you assume this? We know Kroot effectively rule themselves still, their Shapers determine their course, and the Tau even do not prohibit or censor their cannibalism despite the Tau being officially opposed to it. In the Skilltaker short story we have a Gue'vesa officer who is promoted to lead a Hunter Cadre at the end. Look one shouldn't think that being part of the Tau Empire is like being a sovereign nation, your subordinate to the Empire, but you're definitely permitted more influence in decisions affecting your life than in any other major hegemon. The Tau hegemon is still immoral, it's just that compared to all other major hegemony it is the most moral alternative. A lesser evil.
The Kroot are only still self-ruling because they have actually managed to deceive the Tau. The Tau are unaware of how advanced the Kroot actually are. Their space ships are capable of actual warp travel and their ship contruction facilities are unknown to the Tau. From the Tau perspective, they treat the Kroot as a trained, but dangerous, wardog. They exert, what they think is total, control, but do so warily. Vespids are all but confirmed to be mind controlled by the helmets the Tau give their leaders.
Sure, an exceptional individual might get some recognition, but even though they might, on paper, be full members of their society its delusional to think that non-Tau are anything but second class citizens. Even ones which are "fully integrated".
A human probably actually has more potential freedom on an Imperial planet. The Imperium itself will have very little effect on the day to day life of its citizens. All the Imperium demands is you worship the Emperor, not engage in heresy, and pay your taxes. Other than that, nothing is prohibited or mandated. So really its whatever the local government of your planet is like. It could be a nice democracy, it could be a brutal totalitarian regime, it could be a benevolent dictatorship, it could be a ruthlessly corrupt democratic system. But the Tau is an Orwellian society where everything is monitored, and a sinister evil is hidden behind a polished veneer. It is the worst kind of oppression, the kind imposed "for your own good".
But based on what? You're simply saying 'they are second class citizens' but what is this assertion based on? Give an example of it. For example where is it ever stated the Kroot are largely autonomous because of deception. How does that even work? Do the Tau permit the. More autonomy because they think they are more primitive? Is that the implication? It would seem incredibly odd for the Tau's attitude to be 'they appear to be primitive, let's allow them enormous autonomy' but then if they found out they were more advanced then at first thought to go 'oh, now let us strip them of their autonomy. Vespid are implied to be mind controlled. An implication which is suspect considering said helmets would be very useful to convincing human populations to join as well but is never used in any way or for . It's an implication at best. It's also a distraction. We are discussing evidence for the second-class citizenship status of non-Tau in the Empire. Numerous Tau do not consider the Krrot 'pets' and we have more than a few expressions of admiration and value for the Kroot's role in the empire by high ranking figures.
Okay to tackle your deities in points one by one;
1) You cannot say that the Imperium has 'little' control of your day to day life then point out that they mandate what you are allowed to believe, read and watch. The Imperium censors anything it considers to not be in line with its ideology. In Fireand Ice an inquisitor includes freedom of choice and thought as being amongst these. The Imperium regulates what a citizen is allowed to believe and express completely. That's an amorous series of interferences. Additionally many other things are prohibited. Being a mutant or too abhuman are prohibited, often punished with death. Use of alien technology, even if it improves your standard of living for no cost, is prohibited as well. Expression of atheism is prohibited. Friendship or interaction with alien races is prohibited. It's ridiculous to assert the Imperium 'prohibits' very little. The entire point is that they are a brutal totalitarian regime.
2) Where does it say everything in the Tau Empire is monitored? I've yet to encounter that quote. In Black Leviathen the Tau even decide to simply allow the nomadic human tribes to continue their nomadic lifestyle and worship whatever Dieties they wish (part of the reason for their joining the Tau as the Imperium was preventing them from doing so).
3) The Imperium oppresses for the exact same reason. I can't believe I have to point this out but, you do realize, that the Imperium's justification for its oppression is also that 'it's for the good of mankind' and 'your own good'. It's no different than the Tau. Both factions simply are convicted of their ideologies and believe they are justified in oppression in the name of those ideologies.
Anemone wrote: But based on what? You're simply saying 'they are second class citizens' but what is this assertion based on? Give an example of it. For example where is it ever stated the Kroot are largely autonomous because of deception. How does that even work? Do the Tau permit the. More autonomy because they think they are more primitive? Is that the implication? It would seem incredibly odd for the Tau's attitude to be 'they appear to be primitive, let's allow them enormous autonomy' but then if they found out they were more advanced then at first thought to go 'oh, now let us strip them of their autonomy.
You are totally missing what I am saying.
The Tau think they have the Kroot under control, not autonomous, and integrated into the Empire. The Kroot are autonomous in secret.
Read the Tau codex and see how other alien races are integrated, and where they end up. If there was full integration we would see the "Tau Empire" be a Federation ruled by leaders drawn from multiple alien races. Instead its an Oligarchy ruled by the Tau, not just Tau in general a specific sub-species of Tau. There is no equality here. Its a dictatorship, and the Ethereals are the rulers.
Anemone: if you do leave the thread now, then I just have to say that I really appreciate how much you've contributed to it. Thank you. The thread really has gone off topic, and for me I could say thay it's because I've just been replying to other members of the forum and kind of actually forgot what my thread was even about.
And yeah, any reference, quotes, or books would also be much appreciated
@Grey Templar: No one is disputing the Tau are dominant. As I have literally said on the last page memores hip in the a empire should not be construed as being akin to independence. But there is a vast chasm of difference between accepting the Empire as a polity with a racial hegemony and what you are asserting.
@123ply: Thank you, after class I will compile that list for you, I simply a, becoming tired of the fact that a faction can't win in its new release without the main focus being on how it should be wiped out. It tires me incredibly.
I know I know, seriously I wouldn't care if any other faction won a permanent victory against the guard, but its the fact the tau are constantly winning : taros, agrellan, prefectia, aand more I can't remember is what's bothering me
Anemone wrote: @Grey Templar: No one is disputing the Tau are dominant. As I have literally said on the last page memores hip in the a empire should not be construed as being akin to independence. But there is a vast chasm of difference between accepting the Empire as a polity with a racial hegemony and what you are asserting.
So you freely admit that non-Tau are 2nd class citizens?
If one race is the one that is in-charge of everything, that by definition makes everyone else second class citizens, or slaves.
Co'tor Shas wrote: AFAIK, human captured planets are still mostly run by humans, at least for the day-to-day stuff, so they probably have similar watch procedures.
I highly doubt it.
There might be human "liaisons" who get to sit in on committee meetings, but the human populace will have zero real power. Only a token presence to make them feel included.
Acording to Imperial Armour 3, Tarosa was ruled by a human Governor while it was under the control of the Tau - the only thing that had really changed was where the tithes went, and the occasional blue guy loitering around the place. In this case, I think it's the Tau leaving a planet that works and had joined the Empire voluntarily to do its thing. No point bringing in the beige jackboots when the black ones that are there are loyal enough anyway.
@123ply: Like I've said I think its an overreaction, strip away Agrellan and Prefectia and the Tau have nothing, but I've repeated it before so I'm going to stop myself there.
As for the list;
Spoiler:
A few things to clarify quick; the Damocles Anthology is a combination of, I believe, 5 or 6 stories. I was going to haul out my Mechanicus and Guard ones too but, to be honest, it was kind of tedious just skimming through all this to get those specific examples. I can't assure you I didn't miss many, I was skimming after all, but I'll append this list with more examples later when I have the energy for it. I hope this will suffice for now.
Up ahead and to the right, a hovering skimmer tank loosed salvo after salvo of missiles at a Knight struggling to dislodge a wrecked battlesuit from its whirring chainblade. Djubali cut right across the khan’s path, sliding his bike sidelong into a wheels-first skid that was all but horizontal. Rider and bike passed right beneath the tank’s anti-grav field in a cloud of stone dust, emerging unscathed before righting and speeding off again. Kor’sarro mentally counted down – three, two, one. Right on cue, the sergeant’s krak grenades detonated with a deafening crump, flipping the tank over onto its missile turret
-Damocles Anthology 48
The khan stood up in his saddle and brought Moonfang around in a high loop that severed the nearest warsuit’s leg and cut away half of its crotch in a spray of green sparks. Behind him, Jebe couched his power spear against his pauldron and used the momentum of his charge to spit another warsuit through the chest. As the company champion rode underneath the alien warsuit, he twisted his body like a lancer rolling with the impact of a hit, yanking his spear free in a spurt of blood. The xenos machine’s legs and weapon-arms dangled corpse-limp even as its jetpack kept it hovering three metres above the earth
-Damocles Anthology 59
were caught in the teeth of the double fusillade, jerked like the marionettes of a mad puppeteer as they were buffeted by the explosions. Two battlesuits were blasted limb from limb as they desperately tried to escape the lethal storm of detonations around them
-Damocles Anthology 63
(This fight is particularly embarrassing for Shadowsun as she loses a lot of men and notes that not a single enemy was killed during the fight at the end.)
Then, with an ear-splitting screech of tortured metal, a giant chainsword blade burst out from the chest of the leftmost Riptide and juddered through its torso in a shower of sparks
-Damocles Anthology 85
(In another of his displays of pointless stupidity Aun’va comes so close to the fight that this Imperial Knight almost kills him after dealing with his Riptide guard.)
Curving upright once more, Shadowsun glimpsed a scar-ravaged gue’la with a glowering bionic eye climb up high on the malfunctioning Riptide. He plunged a metallic arm deep into the battlesuit’s neck joint, rooting around before yanking half of a bloody tau head from the aperture he had torn in its metal hide.
-Damocles Anthology 101
I cast a grenade at the lesser warriors advancing from my rear. My bolter is almost spent. I throw it down, pull free my axe and bolt pistol and charge at the battlesuited elite in the gallery space, hewing at them. Their armoured suits offer much protection, but against the energised edge of my axe, it avails them of little.
-Damocles Anthology 192
The other Ultramarines were fighting the Crisis suits. Each suit was the personal war machine of a tau fire caste veteran, armed with the exotic xenos weapons with which that warrior was most proficient – fusion rifles, missile pods, burst cannons. Brother Silen was down, clutching the wreckage of a ruined thigh, firing with one hand from his back. Merovos and Oderac brought one Crisis suit down with combined fire, Merovos’s plasma gun scorching a deep molten furrow across the battlesuit’s chest, the flesh of the alien inside bubbling and popping in the heat
-Damocles Anthology 263
The enemy had not moved. But a new element had been added to the tableau. Jebe crouched on the wreckage, a bandolier of grenades dangling from one hand, and his sword in the other. The champion leapt onto the battlesuit, and swung the bandolier about its head, activating the grenades as he sprang to the ground. He was in amongst the tau a moment later, his first blow shearing through the large drone, and his next dispatching a tau. Jebe moved with the wind, and the edge of his blade was the curve of a crimson whirlwind.
The grenades exploded and the battlesuit teetered, smoke boiling from its orifices. Jebe ignored it, concentrating on the tau.
-Damocles Anthology 329
The battlesuit lumbered past, wheezing and hissing. Smoke boiled out from the point he’d caught with his blow. The battlesuit swung about, eyepiece oscillating and whirring. Its gun swung up, humming. Thursk sprinted towards the wall. Blasts pursued him, ripping up the ground beneath his feet. He leapt. The soles of his boots struck the wall, and he pushed himself off. He flew over the top of the battlesuit as it tried to track him, still firing. His hand snapped out, caught hold of one of the armoured plates that protected the top of the construct. He twisted himself around, driving his boots into the back of the battlesuit. Then, rearing up over the top of it, he let his axe fall, shearing off the square head of the suit.
The head fell to the ground in a flurry of sparks, and he looked down into the pilot-pod, where a blue face, twisted in an alien approximation of surprise, stared up at him. Flipping his axe around, he smashed the haft down on the upraised face, pulping it like rotten fruit. He leapt to the ground as a second suit exploded. The force of the explosion nearly knocked him from his feet, and it was only that half-second without balance that saved him from the energy burst that would have taken his head off. The third suit fought on, with a relentlessness that Thursk could have admired, had it not been trying to kill him
-Damocles Anthology 333
One by one, each of the battlesuits was caught in the storm’s talons, and began to twitch and shudder, as small explosions coursed through them. The lightning swept over them and pulsed out into their enemies beyond the walls, burning the drifts of snow to steam in its passing. The battlesuits, scorched black and gutted, had slumped, and were already being covered by the snow which had been stirred by Ambaghai’s wrath.
-Damocles Anthology 336
Thursk had climbed to the top, and with his knife, pried open several of the hull plates. He stuffed grenades into each of the openings, activating them. Then he grabbed hold of his axe and dropped from the battlesuit. ‘Move,’ he roared, scrambling away. Jebe followed suit as the battlesuit was consumed in fire.
-Damocles Anthology 345
His Wolf Guard joined him now, at Beoric’s command. They swarmed the felled machine, hacking through its sputtering shields with frost blades and power weapons. They dragged the hapless pilot from its cockpit and were snapping, howling, vying for the honour of tearing out its throat
-Eye of the Dragon 5
Almost simultaneously, a burst of heavy calibre slugs stitched across the upper torso of O’Shovah’s armour, pitching him out of the crater and sprawling him full-length in the sand. His systems displays were alight with warning indicators as he struggled to stand. His bodyguards moved to protect him. One was blown almost in half by a stray shell, his crisis armour bursting open like rotten fruit
-The Arkunasha War 24
(This time Orks get to kill some.)
@Grey Templar: I cannot believe I am being forced to do this but:
If, by your definition, a racial group which is a member of a polity does not constitute part of its highest leadership translates into said racial group being 2nd class citizens, then, in numerous countries all over the earth numerous ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious minority groups are 2nd class citizens. No women, to my knowledge are found amongst the High Lords of Terra, thus, women are 2nd class citizens. So the definition you are using is really untenable. Particularly since you are issuing a ridiculously stark requirement; "if not what I assert then only 2nd class citizen and slave are options" as if in the field of political representation and diverse interaction the realities will ever boil down into so simple a binary choice.
Additionally the Tau are not 'in charge of everything' they often delegate roles, leadership and decision making to other species because, putting aside all talk of morality, it is pragmatic. Hence the Kroot Shapers are trusted to make the decisions for the Kroot, in Skilltaker a human is asked by a female Shas'o not to hesitate to correct her or inform her about Space Marines as he would know more about them than she does. A blanket claim such as 'the Tau control and rule everything' not only isn't true but is impractical. Most species which join the Empire need minimal adjustment to become members. After compliance the Tau have, normally, allowed them to usually go on as is because there is no pragmatic use in trying to change things. We only have two thorough examples of integration into the Empire; Kroot and Humans, and in both cases the Tau consistently delegate ruler ship and control to the existing command structures of those races because it is pragmatic to do so. Generally speaking the Tau involved themselves only when military threat to the planet arises or when they believe their is dissent on the planet. Despite you assertions otherwise there is still no textual evidence that the Tau consider the Kroot 'tamed' or that the Kroot believe that they are in some way preventing their own enslavement via 'deception'. There is a wealth of textual information concerning the generally good relations between these two species as a result of their cooperation. Nowhere, that I know of, is it said in a book or codex that the Kroot 'conceal their autonomy from the Tau and that only by this concealment are they autonomous'.
Fact of History: Throughout history and till now in virtually all polities one linguistic group or ethnic group or racial group or cultural group or any other of a series of identification mechanisms we employ as sapient entities have dominated the economic, social and militant power structures within a polity. The Tau Empire are no different, no better, than that. But if having a dominant racial, linguistic, ethnic, cultural or religious group within a polity with more than one such groups (and all polities have more than one such groups) automatically relegates all other groups to the status of 2nd Class Citizens well, then, 2nd Class Citizens exist everywhere and are often near indistinguishable from regular citizens except that members of their group are not found dominating political, social, economic and military structures. I, for example, am then a 2nd Class Citizen of my country by the definition you are advancing. To be clear again, I wholly disagree with your definition, I am simply demonstrating where it leads.
Ultimately there are two answers to your question;
1) This answer stems from a point of view as we the players and our environment; alien races within the Empire are no more 2nd Class citizens than any ethnic, cultural, linguistic or religious minority is in many countries around out world simply because they do not wield large degrees of influence within the polity they inhabit (usually by merit of their relative small populations to other groups within the polity).
2) If we use the definition of 2nd Class Citizens you are using, which to make clear I and most people in the field of geopolitics and historical analysis would balk at, then yes the alien races of the Tau Empire are 2nd Class Citizens. As are Women in the Imperium and, to be honest, a wealth of minority groups not represented amongst the High Lords of Terra who are virtually all depicted as white men. Indeed to take your point to its, actually, furthest extent since the Imperium in truth recognizes the Emperor as its sole ruler and master then anyone not of the same gender or ethnic background as the Emperor is now a 2nd Class citizen since they are not part of the leadership circle.
With that I am done with this discussion on this thread, Grey Templar, if you wish to further dispute this that is fine with me but contact me via PM then since I am not going to continue to talk about topics unrelated to the battle of Prefectia here. This is the internet, as I said, I expect any conversation of this sort to end dismally here. I'll take part but not by derailing this thread any further than the 'Tau should be extinguished' narrative already has done so.
No women, to my knowledge are found amongst the High Lords of Terra, thus, women are 2nd class citizens
This is not really true - men or women can be High Lords - indeed there is a High Lord that can only be taken by women: Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas
The Master of the Adeptus Administratum - can be male or female
The Representative of the Inquisition - can be male or female
The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum - can be male or female
The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus - can be male or female (indeed probably also neither or both)
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites - can be male or female
The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators - although the patanova is male its not clear his envoy must be.
The Master of the Astronomican - can be male or female
The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum - can be male or female
The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica - can be male or female
Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar - can be male or female
Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard - can be male or female
Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy - can be male or female
Cardinal(s) of the Holy Synod of Terra - unclear
Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas - must be female
Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes - must be male
Chancellor of the Estate Imperium - can be male or female
Speaker for the Chartist Captains (representative of the Imperium's merchants) - can be male or female
Then we shall content ourselves instead with the lack of representation of any diverse ethnic groups. As I said there are no female High Lords that I am 'aware' of. That the Abbess Sanctorum is one is a good point, something I didn't know, but doesn't change the overall point of the argument. Besides by the same logic planets in the Tau Empire are, as demonstrated, ruled by humans and Kroot. As an aside is it textually confirmed somewhere that these positions are open to both genders, is it written down in a codex or novel, or are you extrapolating or assuming so? It'd be important to me to know if it is somewhere written down in the canon.
Besides, as said, the Emperor is considered the sole technical ruler of the Imperium, the High Lords are described as ruling 'on his behalf' and thus to continue the point that means the Emperor alone inhabits the top ruling circle. Not that I even know why we are still on this point. We're not even going into the expanded point that the Imperium kills the non-humans and thus doesn't grant them any sort of citizenship status. But to repeat what I said before, if you want to continue this discussion with me that's fine, but I'm not going to continue it on here please, I'm tired of derailing this.
Putting that aside I'm interested on the matter of the High Lords mostly because in every instance of them I have read, or seen, them depicted they have been universally white males. If you can I'd love some links to the current female High Lords, not historical ones, and where there's information on them, it would be interesting to read. The only one I knew of was Sabrina who went missing all the way back in White Dwarf 293. Oh, also, after reading up, I see that the Sister of Battle's position is not considered one of the 'permanent' position but a potential option for one of the three optional ones.
Anemone wrote: Then we shall content ourselves instead with the lack of representation of any diverse ethnic groups. As I said there are no female High Lords that I am 'aware' of. That the Abbess Sanctorum is one is a good point, something I didn't know, but doesn't change the overall point of the argument. Besides by the same logic planets in the Tau Empire are, as demonstrated, ruled by humans and Kroot. As an aside is it textually confirmed somewhere that these positions are open to both genders, is it written down in a codex or novel, or are you extrapolating or assuming so? It'd be important to me to know if it is somewhere written down in the canon.
Besides, as said, the Emperor is considered the sole technical ruler of the Imperium, the High Lords are described as ruling 'on his behalf' and thus to continue the point that means the Emperor alone inhabits the top ruling circle. Not that I even know why we are still on this point. We're not even going into the expanded point that the Imperium kills the non-humans and thus doesn't grant them any sort of citizenship status. But to repeat what I said before, if you want to continue this discussion with me that's fine, but I'm not going to continue it on here please, I'm tired of derailing this.
Putting that aside I'm interested on the matter of the High Lords mostly because in every instance of them I have read, or seen, them depicted they have been universally white males. If you can I'd love some links to the current female High Lords, not historical ones, and where there's information on them, it would be interesting to read. The only one I knew of was Sabrina who went missing all the way back in White Dwarf 293. Oh, also, after reading up, I see that the Sister of Battle's position is not considered one of the 'permanent' position but a potential option for one of the three optional ones.
There does seem to be very little informaiton on the current High Lords (or even the historical ones) - I'll have a look when finish work (on lunch at the moment) but IIRc the original Council of Terra was both men and women as well
I think there is a major difference between the game fluff/art and the wider fluff in things like the novels in which the power can be held by men or women - which fits my view of the Imperium - they don't care about your sex/colopur of skin only that your are human, worship the Emperor etc.
The Abbess is currenly not held as the previous incumbant dispaeared and until they find her body they can't appoint a new one.............
Honestly there is no need, or if you wish to PM them to me instead. Its very interesting a topic but I'd rather not have it here. The important point is that distinctions exist, whether their skin, sex, beliefs, language, cultural practice, phenotype, religion or otherwise, you will always have distinction and said groups are deprived. People easily assign more importance to, say, sex and skin colour, despite persecution on any grounds; language, culture, beliefs, religion, ideology and such being no different. What people are willing to persecute for will always differ, but persecution and marginalization remains persecution and marginalization no matter who practises it.
On the specific note of sex-relations within the Imperium itself, well, as I said I'd rather discuss that in its own thread, but to make a cursory comment I've always found that what does exist in the novels is relatively dismal. The Tempestus Scion Codex confirms that females of the Prefectia have very limited options compared to the males and cannot become Scions or Commissars, for example, in the latest Codex, and the ratio of important female inquisitors to male ones is literally about 7:1. Though no doubt theoretically one could argue that somewhere out their exists the opposite trend I've very rarely seen it presented. In almost every novel of 40k I have read women rarely occupy the highest offices and many planets describe them as still being used akin to chattel and breeding stock by noble families. A bit disappointingly, for example, the major Knight families with characterization all seem to practise male primogeniture and only permit Males to operate Knights; at the very least I know of no female Knights of House Terryn or who appeared within the Sanctus Reach Campaign. In addition, in the Horus Heresy, barring Roboute's mother I've not seen many women who occupy the highest level of administrative office across the Imperium, alongside Malcador and such, but as I've said previously I was disappointed with how 'the same' the Great Crusade was to the Imperium I've already read about. I had expected, and hoped for, a radically different schematic and protocol.
But lets ignore that, as I said, I don't want to discuss it here. Its fine to use your own interpretation of the fluff to determine what the universe looks like in your opinion, personally the contradictory and inconsistent nature of the fluff of 40k requires it to an extent, and I too pick those pieces in such mechanisms that make the narrative most interesting and consistent to me to forge a coherent story. The problem is that, on the matter of diversity, I'd generally like to see more of it before I ascribe to it. Space Marines seem to be overwhelmingly white, the Guard seem so too, Sisters of Battle are almost universally racially homogenous and the Scions in their Codex share this trait. Its fun to imagine diversity, and certainly I won't argue against it, but its also true that I have a hard time swallowing the concept of 'parity' in this regard when I look at the composition of the Imperium's command structure; from the important Chapter Masters of Marneus, Logan, Dante and Azrael to people like Malcador, Yarrick, Creed, Macharius and Celestine. Generally groups divergent from this trend tend to be liminal or considered niche-like. Even the White Scars in the Horus Heresy have their 'otherness' as part of their nature.
But now I'm really off track, apologies, if you'd like to say something about this I don't mind, but rather just PM me something than continue a conversation here, I'm already feeling guilty about the stuff I put above.
Co'tor Shas wrote: AFAIK, human captured planets are still mostly run by humans, at least for the day-to-day stuff, so they probably have similar watch procedures.
I highly doubt it.
There might be human "liaisons" who get to sit in on committee meetings, but the human populace will have zero real power. Only a token presence to make them feel included.
Acording to Imperial Armour 3, Tarosa was ruled by a human Governor while it was under the control of the Tau - the only thing that had really changed was where the tithes went, and the occasional blue guy loitering around the place. In this case, I think it's the Tau leaving a planet that works and had joined the Empire voluntarily to do its thing. No point bringing in the beige jackboots when the black ones that are there are loyal enough anyway.
That's one of the better descriptions I have heard in a while.
@Grey Templar: I cannot believe I am being forced to do this but:
If, by your definition, a racial group which is a member of a polity does not constitute part of its highest leadership translates into said racial group being 2nd class citizens, then, in numerous countries all over the earth numerous ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious minority groups are 2nd class citizens. No women, to my knowledge are found amongst the High Lords of Terra, thus, women are 2nd class citizens. So the definition you are using is really untenable. Particularly since you are issuing a ridiculously stark requirement; "if not what I assert then only 2nd class citizen and slave are options" as if in the field of political representation and diverse interaction the realities will ever boil down into so simple a binary choice.
You are incorrectly using the word "race" as it applies to 40k. Race is not the same in our modern world as it is in 40k. In the modern world, it refers to some arbitrary separation based on skin color or other physical features. In 40k it refers to different species.
As to the meat of this argument, you are again missing what I am saying. Its not the lack of membership, its lack of representation. If every race could vote for representation within the Empire then wouldn't be 2nd class citizens. Granted the Tau themselves don't get to vote, and I suppose technically any Tau not a member of the Ethereal class would be a 2nd class citizen as well.
And yes it really does boil down to something quite binary. Non-tau have no say in how the Empire is run, of course to be fair neither do most Tau, and zero chance of ever getting into a position to do so. At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".
Fact of History: Throughout history and till now in virtually all polities one linguistic group or ethnic group or racial group or cultural group or any other of a series of identification mechanisms we employ as sapient entities have dominated the economic, social and militant power structures within a polity. The Tau Empire are no different, no better, than that. But if having a dominant racial, linguistic, ethnic, cultural or religious group within a polity with more than one such groups (and all polities have more than one such groups) automatically relegates all other groups to the status of 2nd Class Citizens well, then, 2nd Class Citizens exist everywhere and are often near indistinguishable from regular citizens except that members of their group are not found dominating political, social, economic and military structures. I, for example, am then a 2nd Class Citizen of my country by the definition you are advancing. To be clear again, I wholly disagree with your definition, I am simply demonstrating where it leads.
Incorrect. You are not a 2nd class citizen if you have all the same rights and potential opportunities as everyone else, and have a say in the government.
A dominant ethic majority doesn't mean other groups a 2nd class citizens, what makes them 2nd class citizens is if the capabilities of those citizens are restricted by the government/law in some way. In the Tau Empire that is most certainly the case. In modern western society that is most definitely not the case. In the Imperium, its a pure meritocracy.
It depends on what you mean by upward mobility. They tau advancement system (rank based upon experience and skill) provides plenty of upward mobility. Sure they can never get into a empire-wise leadership position, but neither can tau who are not in the ethereal caste.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It depends on what you mean by upward mobility. They tau advancement system (rank based upon experience and skill) provides plenty of upward mobility. Sure they can never get into a empire-wise leadership position, but neither can tau who are not in the ethereal caste.
Just because not all Tau have the opportunity doesn't mean that humans/kroot/etc... aren't be oppressed as well. And my assertion is just that the Tau system is not in any way better than what the Imperium offers, from a human perspective. The Tau just have honey on forked tongues.
Co'tor Shas wrote: It depends on what you mean by upward mobility. They tau advancement system (rank based upon experience and skill) provides plenty of upward mobility. Sure they can never get into a empire-wise leadership position, but neither can tau who are not in the ethereal caste.
Just because not all Tau have the opportunity doesn't mean that humans/kroot/etc... aren't be oppressed as well. And my assertion is just that the Tau system is not in any way better than what the Imperium offers, from a human perspective. The Tau just have honey on forked tongues.
From what we have seen, however, they are not. And quality of living is supposed to go up for most humans joining the empire, so there's that. Are they on par with tau? Not exactly (the phrase used is "first among equals", or, to use the term proper, primus inter pares). Are they oppressed and treated as second class citzens? No more than your average tau and no, respectively.
@Grey Templar: As I said, if you want to continue this I'll do so by PM's. Otherwise I'm not going to bother, I don't need too, you make points like the 'the Imperium is a pure meritocracy'. As if the fluff isn't literally littered with examples which are the exact opposite. As if all non-humans and many abhumans aren't automatically disqualified from said system by death. Additionally you are choosing to employ a differentiation between species in terms of alien races and internal differences between a species. I make no distinction nor is there an objective requirement to do so. Differences inter and infra-species are equally valid and interesting. That's just so factually incorrect that I'm not going to bother with continuing since there's no need too. Want to continue it then PM me but I'm not going to continue a pointless derailing conversation here. That you cannot perceive the obvious material and civil rights differences between what is depicted textually as being experienced by a human in the Tau Empire and a human in the imperium is fine, it doesn't interest me if that is how you enjoy the narrative have it, so if you wish to discuss it further with me I'll not do it where it simply distracts from the real conversation. Good night.
At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".
Is that actually true? - a lot of the Imperium is arranged around feudal structures and "old boy" networks? The Guard and Navy are prime examples of this with often very highly stratified class barriers and ceilings for those not born into wealth and power. In fact one of the notable things about the Inquisition is that you can potentially rise in the way you describe.
In the Imperium, its a pure meritocracy: Advancement in such a system is based on performance measured through examination and/or demonstrated achievement in the field where it is implemented.
In the Imperium - who and what your parents are/were is likely to be just as important as your abilities and your abilities - or lack of them certainly do not automatically bar you from high position?
The Mechanicum is a bit different but it has its own internal ranking, classes and political choices and I certainly would not say its a meritocracy?
At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".
Is that actually true? - a lot of the Imperium is arranged around feudal structures and "old boy" networks? The Guard and Navy are prime examples of this with often very highly stratified class barriers and ceilings for those not born into wealth and power. In fact one of the notable things about the Inquisition is that you can potentially rise in the way you describe.
It varies by world to world of course. But the Imperium itself doesn't care for social standing or your class. You need to distinguish between the local government and the Imperium.
But there are examples everyone of even the lowest of the low rocketing to the highest positions. Creed was a street urchin on Cadia. Joining the military is one of the best ways to improve your standing, if you survive the insane casualty rates and have some skills.
In the mechanicus, if you show aptitude for the rites of the machine god you'll get promoted, and practically speaking you can achieve immortality. Even the Fabricator General on Mars was once a lowly human serf, thousands of years ago. Of course you might just as easily screw up, and thats as easily a death sentence or no chance of future promotion. No 2nd chances for sure. "Serf 10047 has shown a 2% increase in productivity--->Promotion? Serf 10047 incorrectly carried the 7th decimal in incident report HJ45-09 resulting in a loss of 4% efficiency for the cycle's production. Promotion Denied!"
At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".
Is that actually true? - a lot of the Imperium is arranged around feudal structures and "old boy" networks? The Guard and Navy are prime examples of this with often very highly stratified class barriers and ceilings for those not born into wealth and power. In fact one of the notable things about the Inquisition is that you can potentially rise in the way you describe.
It varies by world to world of course. But the Imperium itself doesn't care for social standing or your class. You need to distinguish between the local government and the Imperium.
But there are examples everyone of even the lowest of the low rocketing to the highest positions. Creed was a street urchin on Cadia. Joining the military is one of the best ways to improve your standing, if you survive the insane casualty rates and have some skills.
In the mechanicus, if you show aptitude for the rites of the machine god you'll get promoted, and practically speaking you can achieve immortality. Even the Fabricator General on Mars was once a lowly human serf, thousands of years ago. Of course you might just as easily screw up, and thats as easily a death sentence or no chance of future promotion. No 2nd chances for sure. "Serf 10047 has shown a 2% increase in productivity--->Promotion? Serf 10047 incorrectly carried the 7th decimal in incident report HJ45-09 resulting in a loss of 4% efficiency for the cycle's production. Promotion Denied!"
No not just worlds - as I mentioned the Guard and the Navy (purely Imperial) operate social structures that can deermine your place in the orgnaisation purely based on who you are and who you know. Yes some rise through the ranks but others wlak straight into a high rank based n their family ancestry - Imperial Governorships have absolutely noting to do with merit but are usually hereditary.
Class is important in the Imperium - its a quasi feudal system - well sort of with other stuff as well - class is not everything but it matters
I should point out, that is literally how the tau advancement system works. You advance through he ranks, purely by how well you do, and how much experience you have. Everyone starts at the very bottom, and has to work their way to the top. No short cuts, no loops holes. No matter who you are, you advance the same way.
They aren't mutually exclusive you know. Except with the Tau there is an absolute hard cap. You get this advancement tree, and nothing else. Its not even, you can choose from these trees. nope, its you get this tree because of your birth.
In the Imperium, if you have the right skills and put in the effort you can achieve anything. It might be easier for some poeple, but thats hardly strange.
That hard cap being "O" rank, the highest possible rank. And then can be brought up to different leadership positions above that, such as control of a sept's military command, or being head of a expansionary push. I'm unsure what you are getting at. As far as the tree system, it's not just caste, they are literally different sub-species. A air caste member could not do the job of a fire caste at anywhere close to the same level. Different bone and muscle structures. And all 4 castes are equal in every way.
As far as the imperium's social mobility, it's not anywhere as close to what you seem to think it is. Advancement of any kind is hard fought, especially when you will often not have any way to learn the skills to advance.
Really, it comes down to will and resources committed.
As long as the IOM has it's attention split and the Tau are not the Tau will continue to win. If the Tau end up fighting a two-front war (against, say, the Imperium and an Ork Waaagh) things get evened up and life becomes a lot dicier for the Tau.
For the Tau any defensive war with the Imperium is a struggle for survival. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Tau are an existential threat to the Imperium. A fight for survival focuses the mind wonderfully; the Imperium doesn't have that against the Tau.
The Tau are a flexible and innovative people who do not fear research, development and employment of new technology. Given time they can develop and deploy hard counters for anything the Imperium can employ. Not so the Imperium. However...
... Should the Tau face a multi front war, or should the Imperium catch a break and decide to focus against the Tau the Tau are in for a very, very bad time. They just have the manpower or resources of an Imperial Sector, and the IOM has a significant advantage in their warp drives and Navigators over the Tau's slower and shorter ranged faster than light travel. Plus the Imperium has plenty of experience annihilating Xenos pocket empires to draw on.
Play for time, Tau. Time is on your side. Play for time and don't become such a threat that High Lords of Terra decide you've got to go, NOW.
I'm really digging those quotes, Anemone. It's funny because I've wanted to pick up the Damocles Anthology and read Black Leviathan, I hears that story had some interesting battles in it.
And yes, the Imperium's divided attention is the Tau's best friend. Considering the scale of the IoM's borders, it makes sense though if the Imperium can't commit too much resourced to fight the Tau. I've been thinking about it and the only titan that the Tau I think have seen is the Warhound, I don't remember even reaver being used against them. Considering the death of the RGS chapter master, and that the Tau have gained the attention of the humans, it will be no surprise when the tau start seeing reavers and warlords, and maybe imperators one of the Imperium's next crusade's.
@123ply: You're welcome, glad you enjoy them. Personally I didn't enjoy much of the Damocles Anthology, as I said its focus simply seemed on being to make sure the reader was aware that the Tau 'victory' wasn't a victory. The Damocles Warzone Book itself actually calls the final battle an Imperium Victory and names it 'Victory in Defeat'. As I said I'd like other factions to have unambiguous wins. Other than Kauyon, which I dread will simply be reversed come the next book, I've yet to see anyone ever win an unambiguous victory over the Imperium in a narrative supplement.
Regardless, to my knowledge during the battle on Dalyth larger variants of Titans, such as the Reaver, were seen but my memory is far from flawless.
Formosa wrote: So Tau win a few victories, so what, the "grimdark" thing about tau is, they will never win in the long run, no matter what they do the universe will drag them down to the level of the other great powers, I personally see the tau as in the middle of their own great crusade, and if they ever become a real threat to the status quo, one of the major factions will come down on them hard, imagine if the chaos gods decide to take an interest in them!
With the speed the Tau is advancing, it's not impossible for them to become the next super powers of the galaxy. I cam totally see them winning the great war of 40k but it'll be hard for them because of their numbers. Thing is though, the Tau are populating more and more world's as we know it and getting more and more powerful for each passing battle.
If one of the bigger factions put they're weight on them, they could be crushed, but it's hard for more other contenders to do that, unlike the Tau themselves who can actually go almost full force because of their small borders and minimal amount of territory and world's to contend for. And as for the chaos gods- maybe, but chaos had been trying for a pretty long time to take down humanity and, although are slowly crippling them, are getting beaten back regularly. Check out the famous cadian quote where a cadian or Inquisition (?) Claims he/she stops 10p active chaos cults a day. Most of the chaos incursions are small, insignificant cults that huddle around in a hood who commit blaspheme for whatever their personal reasons. I always imagined most chaos cults to be like an aggressive street gang, while the bigger ones are like the bloods or crops facing off against the police, or the Gators I'm Toronto, who were known to be pretty damn violent, when they were still terrorizing the city
So It's unlikely they can win, but it's certainly not impossible.
Chaos tried to take down humanity and scored a total victory, they don't want humanity dead, they never have, they need humanity to thrive on, chaos space Marines want the imperium dead, but not humanity, the chaos gods just want humanity to fight endlessly.
So if say the tau reach imperial levels of dominance, you can bet your top dollar that the chaos gods will do the same to them.
123ply wrote: Humans are still the dominant species of the universe.
They aren't. They're a dying species, living out its last days in such unimaginable misery that it would probably be better to just get it over with and let the Tyranids eat them. They continue to exist for one reason, and one reason only: their sheer size allows them to lose war after war and still continue to exist. The only question which remains in 40k is not whether humanity will survive, but who will inflict the final blow.
If you don't understand this fact then you have really missed the entire point of the setting.
The imperium is, in a simple term. Rome in space. The emperor is ceaser except this time he didn't entirely die, its the fall of the Roman empire in space. However, you are missing the point of the setting, its not about the Imperium never being able to come back, on the contrary, its only.because of endless assaults on all sides that keep it from doing so, the setting is grim dark, eternal war it can't be grim dark unless there IS hope, GW has also lead us to believe when, if ever, the metaphorical clock strikes 12, that the imperium may well end, but humanity won't.
Formosa wrote: So Tau win a few victories, so what, the "grimdark" thing about tau is, they will never win in the long run, no matter what they do the universe will drag them down to the level of the other great powers, I personally see the tau as in the middle of their own great crusade, and if they ever become a real threat to the status quo, one of the major factions will come down on them hard, imagine if the chaos gods decide to take an interest in them!
With the speed the Tau is advancing, it's not impossible for them to become the next super powers of the galaxy. I cam totally see them winning the great war of 40k but it'll be hard for them because of their numbers. Thing is though, the Tau are populating more and more world's as we know it and getting more and more powerful for each passing battle.
If one of the bigger factions put they're weight on them, they could be crushed, but it's hard for more other contenders to do that, unlike the Tau themselves who can actually go almost full force because of their small borders and minimal amount of territory and world's to contend for. And as for the chaos gods- maybe, but chaos had been trying for a pretty long time to take down humanity and, although are slowly crippling them, are getting beaten back regularly. Check out the famous cadian quote where a cadian or Inquisition (?) Claims he/she stops 10p active chaos cults a day. Most of the chaos incursions are small, insignificant cults that huddle around in a hood who commit blaspheme for whatever their personal reasons. I always imagined most chaos cults to be like an aggressive street gang, while the bigger ones are like the bloods or crops facing off against the police, or the Gators I'm Toronto, who were known to be pretty damn violent, when they were still terrorizing the city
So It's unlikely they can win, but it's certainly not impossible.
Chaos tried to take down humanity and scored a total victory, they don't want humanity dead, they never have, they need humanity to thrive on, chaos space Marines want the imperium dead, but not humanity, the chaos gods just want humanity to fight endlessly.
So if say the tau reach imperial levels of dominance, you can bet your top dollar that the chaos gods will do the same to them.
Except tau, like necrons, have no warp register. And so will be extremely difficult to corrupt. Another note is, if tau DO reach imperium level dominance then they will likely be more capable in combating demons, as they will create new tactics/weapons to combat them.
Nope, that's wrong, the Tau are "blunt" NOT "blank" - they have little presence but still have some....also its not just biological entities that can be corrupted - their reliance on AI's is a potential threat to them - either by rebellion or possession - or both.
On the matter of the thread's question 'who will win the Damocles War Zone' having now had a chance to read the Kauyon Book in detail well...the book actually answers the question. It says the Imperium is going to win. In particular it seems they will be retaking Agrellan. As I feared.
Also to those worried about the book being too hard on the Imperials, don't worry to much, the book makes clear not to think of losing as Prefectia as actually being much of a loss (as I've been saying) the planet is described as 'insignificant' within the book itself.
Like I and others have said, it'll probably all be reversed by the next book. But yeah, since the original question was on the matter of 'who wins' the book makes pretty clear who's going to win. I still await any non-Imperium faction to have a single unambiguous victory in a narrative supplement.
Depending on your definition of "Narrative Supplement", the Ahriman series has had several for Chaos - some of them even over the Imperials themselves.
I mean the crunch related-narrative supplements which come with rules and extended descriptions of the stories. As far as I know those are Damnos, Damocles: Agrellan, Damocles: Kauyon, Pandorax, Sanctus Reach, Shield of Baal and Valedor. That is, to my understanding, the limit of them.
That being said it is nice to hear Ahriman has won major unambiguous victories, I assume since he does little in the way of holding territory these are usually him retrieving some or other artefact, as it is a pleasant change from Orks and Tau in the novels. I can't think of many Novels where Orks or Tau win a war or conquer a planet. I've heard Siege of Castellax, though I've never read it, sees the Orks eventually win and claim the planet, and Chains of Golgotha is still the only major Ork unambiguous victory I know, but two is still not that impressive. Eldar have Valedor, that's it to my knowledge, and the Tau...well I actually don't know, is there a Tau novel in which they successfully win a war? I can't think of any which aren't either focused on very small events or end ambiguously.
Regardless it is nice to hear someone in Chaos winning major engagements, not just against more Chaos, in the Fluff.
Except tau, like necrons, have no warp register. And so will be extremely difficult to corrupt. Another note is, if tau DO reach imperium level dominance then they will likely be more capable in combating demons, as they will create new tactics/weapons to combat them.
It's not the Tau are difficult to corrupt (the Warp can corrupt anything, even things like machines, or turn twist inanimate objects into insane versions of themselves with gibbering mouths and the like), but rather the Tau just really aren't worth a Daemons time when there are other things out there, why bother with the tiny number of Tau that are basically like a Snickers bar when they've got billions of times more humans out there, each of which are like a gourmet feast, and probably even more Eldar than Tau which are like a high end $100/plate steak dinner.
It is an interesting discussion, this Tau-Warp interaction, since I've virtually never read any fluff detailing it. I can only think of 3 canonical interactions in the Fluff between Tau and Chaos; Farsight and his men destroying Daemons on Arthas Moloch and, at least as of Fire and Ice, Farsight being very committed to destroying Daemons. Then Shadowsun dealing with the whispers in her suit on Agrellan which keep extolling her to kill people much to her irritation. Finally then, and the only one written at any length, is I remember in the Fire Warrior Novel the Daemon Lord tries to corrupt the Ethereal and the human Admiral but, though successful on the Admiral, gives up on the Ethereal. In the novel, the part is written from the perspective of the Daemon Lord, this is explained as being because the Ethereal is so totally in control of his emotions and desires that there are no chinks in his armour to corrupt or exploit. Later on Kais does actually get corrupted (to an extent at least) and the Daemon Lord describes itself as having a presence in Kais. However when Kais's commanding officer, Lusha, then talks to Kais about how the concept of the Greater Good might be impossible to achieve (because of how vicious so many beings the galaxy are) but that it is a worthwhile regulatory idea to aspire to Kais throws off the corruption complete with the Daemon Lord thinking to itself that the presence it had felt in Kais, the connection and influence it had over him, was now gone.
I'd definitely say there's an argument to make in Fluff that Tau have, so far, displayed resistance to Chaos. But this is mostly because of their lifestyle and their attitude towards choices and decisions rather than a biological defence mechanism. That being said it could also be a biological defence mechanism, its simply that in all cases I've seen of Tau and Chaos interacting the Tau's resistance has usually more come down to their mental reactions towards the concept as opposed to some 'blankness' or 'void' presence around Daemons.
Hardly a fleshed out topic and so not much of merit can be said on it, but interesting none the less to speculate. As I said I believe the above are the only so far detailed moments of Chaos attempting to subvert Tau. Anyone know of any else where they try to corrupt them? Not just fight them.
Anemone wrote: On the matter of the thread's question 'who will win the Damocles War Zone' having now had a chance to read the Kauyon Book in detail well...the book actually answers the question. It says the Imperium is going to win. In particular it seems they will be retaking Agrellan. As I feared.
Also to those worried about the book being too hard on the Imperials, don't worry to much, the book makes clear not to think of losing as Prefectia as actually being much of a loss (as I've been saying) the planet is described as 'insignificant' within the book itself.
Like I and others have said, it'll probably all be reversed by the next book. But yeah, since the original question was on the matter of 'who wins' the book makes pretty clear who's going to win. I still await any non-Imperium faction to have a single unambiguous victory in a narrative supplement.
Wow, I actually kind of feel bad that the Tau loses now :/ but hey, we still don't know that. The book may claim that the "Imperials are retaliating with the biggest force seen since the Hours Heresy" or something similar but we don't really know that the IoM yet. Although I never read the book and I don't know how concrete the evidence is that suggests that the IoM will win, it's still possible that GW will take a new turn and let the Imperium lose this.
But then again, I haven't read it, so I don't really know how clear the message that the Imperials winning are.
EDIT:
Take in mind that there are the Imperial Armour books, like Taros where the Tau wipe the Imperium off their planet. I'm pretty sure there's also narratives behind some of the core supplements like Cities of Death and City fight. I'm not too sure though.
As for chaos' influence over Tau, I don't know much about that either and I'm also quite interested to know more In depth to how they would react to Tzeench speaking to them or Khorne instilling his bloodlust >
We will have to see, you are correct about that for sure, but the ending is pretty pessimistic about their chances. Beyond that it also seems to setup that Agrellan/Mu'gulath Bay will be the next big battle (again) since the Imperium is dedicated to retaking it. Doesn't mind so much that Prefectia was lost, feels Agrellan is more important to retake.
Beyond that some minor spoilers for those with an interest (nothing major here, simply small notes)
Spoiler:
Shrike recovers the Raven Guard's Chapter Master's Geneseed (a feat which makes the others decide to nominate him Chapter Master).
Shadowsun rides a Ghostkeel at points, which makes sense...seriously wish they updated her miniature to be able to take a Ghostkeel.
Apparently Chogoris is currently endangered by 'overwhelming' Chaos Renegades. Bad enough, it seems, that Ko'sarro and the other White Scars present with him actually fear that it might fall, they're described as eager to get out of Damocles in order to return and help fight or, in the book's own words, if there is nothing left to defend then take revenge. Makes Ko'sarro's oath to kill Shadowsun even if 'Chogoris burns' more poignant since it seems he's now decided to put his personal vendetta with her above his own Homeworld.
Tau technology allows them to establish enormous, mobile forward operating bases in surprisingly little time. These are large castle like fortifications, as described by Ko'sarro, except that they can move.
Shadowsun is able to deduce and guess where Imperial Navy Ships make translation out of the Warp by deducing the movements of the ships and regions of space which seem anomalous. She has a bunch of science vessels study Imperial Ships which translate out of the Warp, we are told they get really weird readings, but they pretty much vanish after that (presumably we're meant to think its the Ethereals covering more up.
Both of Shadowsun's made-for-campaign Commanders; Swiftflame and Sternshield, survive. I am quite fond of Sternshield. Very reliable guy who puts himself in danger to protect his men and fights out of love for his people and a genuine desire to keep his own soldiers safe. He engages in a dangerous, unsanctioned solo action where he uses his Coldstar suit to get into orbit and latch onto an Imperial Vessel and then listen in on the Imperium's communications.
I'm very confident, with the way it is described, that the Obsidian Knight is not dead. They just say he falls down a chasm. This being 40k I think there's hardly even a question he survived.
Pretty much everyone but the Space Marines and Imperial Knights do nothing. The Guard and Navy get very little mention. There is one brief paragraph where the numbers of the Guard push the Tau back a bit but it goes against the Guard very quickly again and pretty much the entire purpose of this brief achievement is because it gave the Space Marines time to regroup after they suffered defeats. Really it seems at times that only the Space Marines and House Tybalt are actually fighting the Tau.
Sternshield at one point catches an anti-air missile shot at him and later he and Shadowsun watch the Earth Caste open it. Both are, unsurprisingly, disturbed to find a mummified cadaver inside.
@123ply: Yes the Tau win Taros. It is, I believe, the only time they win. Don't get me wrong, its nice, since Taros is the only unambiguous victory the Tau have at all. But its not much. Still something is better than nothing. As for these other supplements...well...if someone other than the Imperium wins in them I will be very surprised. But obviously if you know of any cases that'd be nice to hear. As far as I know at current there is really only Taros, Agrellan and Prefectia and is seems that at least Agrellan, if not Prefectia as well, will soon be reversed.
Necrons actually won on Sanctuary 101 - both originally in White Dwarf and in the reprise novel, Hammer and Anvil - in that they retain ownership of the planet. That said, in H&A the humans achieved their objectives (sort of), even if they ran away and pretended to have failed.
Regarding Tau/Warp interactions, the novel Fire Warrior is, unlike the game it's taken from, actually very good. In Fire Warrior, an Ethereal is shown to actively have a warp-calming influence - when Kais, a Fire Warrior with a Lord of Change whispering in his ear, enters the Ethereal's presence, he's calmed and becomes docile - previously he'd been slaughtering his way through Guardsmen and Space Marines single-handed using a mix of pulse fire and soft-form martial arts with nigh-khornate glee.
I'm surprised you still read then :p Hammer and Anvil was an awesome preview to the then-unreleased 5e Necron codex when I bought it at games day that year, but as books go - and as representations of the Sisters go - it was not good.
Except tau, like necrons, have no warp register. And so will be extremely difficult to corrupt. Another note is, if tau DO reach imperium level dominance then they will likely be more capable in combating demons, as they will create new tactics/weapons to combat them.
It's not the Tau are difficult to corrupt (the Warp can corrupt anything, even things like machines, or turn twist inanimate objects into insane versions of themselves with gibbering mouths and the like), but rather the Tau just really aren't worth a Daemons time when there are other things out there, why bother with the tiny number of Tau that are basically like a Snickers bar when they've got billions of times more humans out there, each of which are like a gourmet feast, and probably even more Eldar than Tau which are like a high end $100/plate steak dinner.
Well, it's a bit more than that. Individual tau warp signatures are tiny. It's very hard to locate them, much less posses, for demons. Not impossible, just very hard. I mean, a greater demon of khorne sort of manged it, but it just turned the tau in question into a rage-fueled killing machine, not a true possestion
@Furyou: Hah! Well it got me interested in the concept, if only because I liked the aesthetic of the Sisters, and so I started looking for other things. I'll admit though there is certainly not a whole lot of fiction about Sisters.
Sadly not. There's an enjoyable story featuring them in the current Grey Knight codex, but it's summative rather than narrative so we don't really get any characterisation or in-depth anything.
Unfortunately, the typical Sister is loyal, industrious and fanatical - which doesn't really make for a stand-out protagonist. So all the Sororitas protagonists are outliers like Miriya who should have gone into the Repentia long before she made the rank of Celestian Superior. She certainly shouldn't have been rewarded for the gak she pulled in Faith and Fire.
Oh yeah, totally forgot but Shield of Baal has some Sister action, and so does the novella Tempestus. Infact, for the first part of that book, I forgot it was even about the Tempestus Scions.
I just thought about a follow up story that I can see happening in the next book
I imagine the general of the crusade, when he takes back Agrellan, deploys a weaker force of guardsmen spearheaded by space marines. The Tau, knowing of the danger of Astartes, concentrate their forces of repelling the space marines, but the general knows this and uses it to his advantage by ordering taurox prime - riding scions to speed up and take important locations like secure landing zones and destroying Tau Orbital relays, the scions on their Taurox fight for a giant landing
Zone ( or multiple landing zones) type of place behind ish enemy lines while the fighting against the space marines is at its heaviest. Fit with sugar arrays, the scions call in deep strike reinforcements backed up by Valkarie and vendetta who soon claim a large open field in which the general uses to deploy a massive amount of guardsmen regiments. The Tau, while still concentrated on the fight with the marines are slow to respond to the threat that has suddenly appeared, and the guardsmen feth gak up and take the glory from the space marines.
I'm aware how poorly written and flawed this story is, but it's kind of the reverse of the usual circumstance, in which the Imperial Guard steal the glory, instead of the other way around for once. Seeing how the IG is probably the next IoM faction to be updated, and seeing how the recapture of Agrellan is foreshadowed, it would only make sense that the IG win it this time around instead of just surviving long enough to let their power armoured half-brother in win it for them.
The main problem with that is the fact that Tau don't maintain static lines, don't build defensive installations and the idea of them being bogged down in a fight is anathema to their whole philosophy of war.
Furyou Miko wrote: The main problem with that is the fact that Tau don't maintain static lines, don't build defensive installations and the idea of them being bogged down in a fight is anathema to their whole philosophy of war.
Well, by "behind enemy lines" I really ment more of something like an important city or headquarters or whatnot, rather than behind a Tau floating trench system
123ply wrote: Well, by "behind enemy lines" I really ment more of something like an important city or headquarters or whatnot, rather than behind a Tau floating trench system
And the storm troopers (who killed the scions and their idiotic transports for heresy, instantly redeeming the entire story) arrive to find a departing Manta loaded with the Tau HQ and a wave of Tigershark bombers incoming. The core of the Tau strategy (and the reason why the Riptide and other giant anime robots are so stupid) is that an entire Tau cadre can be loaded into a Manta or Orca and re-deployed at will. There is no such thing as a front line with the Tau because as soon as you think you've pinned them down they've just flown halfway around the planet to slaughter your supply lines. It's like trying to out-maneuver a space marine drop pod assault, except that the drop pods can take off again.
Furyou Miko wrote: The main problem with that is the fact that Tau don't maintain static lines, don't build defensive installations and the idea of them being bogged down in a fight is anathema to their whole philosophy of war.
Well, by "behind enemy lines" I really ment more of something like an important city or headquarters or whatnot, rather than behind a Tau floating trench system
Pretty much what Peregrine said without the hyperbole and neophobia - Tau headquarters buildings look like this;
(THQ really dropped the ball on that one - an HQ shaped like a manta would have been an awesome way to keep the ball rolling and a much better option for the HQ to Epic Unit than the Monolith).
As for cities, you end up blowing up a load of Tau civilians. Good job, you evil monster. But you've not really done anything about their military capability.
Actually the Tau do use fixed installations especially once a conquest has been completed and the world is beginning to be normalised. See the Taros Campaign and various BL novels. The Tau are not going to use their limited military resources (Orcas and Mantas) once the conflict has concluded (or appears to have been).
In fact the Taros campaign has a strike along the lines being suggested with Stormtroopers and a Eversor Assassin attacking an air base and command HQ - killing the Ethereal target. They build fixed ground bases in the recent Damocles Campaign books
They also can't be sure that they have air superiority - they normally do - but its not always going to be the case - the scenario in the Aeronautica campaign book shows the problems that this can cause if their opponents can match their Aerospace cover. Orcas are vulnerable to interception and even Manta's can be driven off or destroyed by enough Anti Air or by super heavies.
It would be interesting to see what an emperor class titan would do to tau, not that there are more than a handful left, I doubt the imperium would ever consider sending one towards the tau.
Formosa wrote: It would be interesting to see what an emperor class titan would do to tau, not that there are more than a handful left, I doubt the imperium would ever consider sending one towards the tau.
The last image in the brand new campaign books has a fleet of about 300-400 warships so maybe they will - although I think the idea is just to show the sort of force the Imperium can muster as that is a force that fight Black Crusades not a upstart minor Xenos empire taking a backwater planet.
Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.
Mr Morden wrote: Actually the Tau do use fixed installations especially once a conquest has been completed and the world is beginning to be normalised. See the Taros Campaign and various BL novels. The Tau are not going to use their limited military resources (Orcas and Mantas) once the conflict has concluded (or appears to have been).
In fact the Taros campaign has a strike along the lines being suggested with Stormtroopers and a Eversor Assassin attacking an air base and command HQ - killing the Ethereal target. They build fixed ground bases in the recent Damocles Campaign books
They also can't be sure that they have air superiority - they normally do - but its not always going to be the case - the scenario in the Aeronautica campaign book shows the problems that this can cause if their opponents can match their Aerospace cover. Orcas are vulnerable to interception and even Manta's can be driven off or destroyed by enough Anti Air or by super heavies.
See, that is actually what I thought because I do remember reading about static Tau bases and locations with strategic value to the Tau on the wiki article on the Damocles Gulf Crusade.
And i think the only time an emperor would be deployed against the Tau is if they attack a major world finally. Otherwise, if the Imperium demonstrates to the Tau that their most powerful titan can be destroyed, it wouldn't serve the high lords nor the mechanicus well In terms of moral, and overall view of the Blue Man Group's power. What about warlords though? How rare are those in the Imperium?
There are quite a few Warlords in service to the Imperium - most if not all Titan Legions would have at least some and they can repair and build them.
IIRC A full Titan Legion has not yet been sent to face the Tau - it may be that this is next non Heresy FW book as is rumoured and it should be quite bloody and a very different opponent for the Tau.
At Taros they just had a couple of Warhounds against them (which with the Asartes caused huge loses to the Tau forces before they used the Tigershark variant) although the original Crusade had larger forces who were extremely effective. Previously the Tau counter for them was the Manta but if they have to fight in space they can't do this.............hence the (IMO silly) new suits.
A full and well led combined arms force (Guard, Astartes, Navy, Mechanicum) should defeat the Tau but they are more uncommon than Warlords
Formosa wrote: Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.
Exactly true. And if the tau manage to destroy it, that's a massive loss to the Imperium. It's just not worth the risk.
Formosa wrote: Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.
Exactly true. And if the tau manage to destroy it, that's a massive loss to the Imperium. It's just not worth the risk.
Its not the imperium as such that would decide if a Imperator was used - that would be the Adeptus Mechanicus - it is possible that elements might be willing to risk it if they werer confident they could a) crush the Tau and b) have unrestircted access to the Tau technology to reverse engineer into a more palatable form - just as they do with most Xenos technology - course that may take a few hundred years or more......................
Formosa wrote: Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.
Exactly true. And if the tau manage to destroy it, that's a massive loss to the Imperium. It's just not worth the risk.
Its not the imperium as such that would decide if a Imperator was used - that would be the Adeptus Mechanicus - it is possible that elements might be willing to risk it if they werer confident they could a) crush the Tau and b) have unrestircted access to the Tau technology to reverse engineer into a more palatable form - just as they do with most Xenos technology - course that may take a few hundred years or more......................
On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.
But honestly Titans don't seem like the best Units to face Tau with exactly because of the fact that Tau can Mass-Produce a spacefighter with a Heavy Railgun. One cannot compare the amount of time and resources which the Tau Empire waste on squadrons of AX-10 Tigersharks to how long and exhaustive the process of creating new versions of the heavier Titans designations. Although I understand Forgeworld and GW's recent predilection with just giving the Tau bigger mechs the truth is that I'd have preferred if they stuck to the Tau's strengths of confronting the inane nature of their foes with more practical responses. An enormously lumbering terrestrial unit is far better engaged with large amounts of units which can remain a safe distance from it, move rapidly, but also have firepower sufficient to bring it down. Already with Battlesuits you have the logic being glimpsed; if virtually all armies you fight have large amounts of landlocked troops and combatants and virtually your entire army can move into the air and stay out of range, you have an incredible advantage. But big Mechs are popular, particularly most 40k fans seem to prefer big and lumbering to sleek, so I get why GW and Forgeworld focus on it since there's no doubting the popularity of the Tau'nar and such.
Regardless, as part of this conversation, I must say that I really just am finding it difficult to maintain an interest in 40k's fluff anymore. A game where one side virtually wins everything of significance ever is just not fun to me at all. If a playable faction ever just got totally removed or such or destroyed beyond recognition I'd probably stop; I have friends who play with all those different factions, I think they're all fun and interesting in their own way, and I'd rather see them actually contributing rather than endlessly playing second fiddle or dying. But that's me, hardly a popular opinion as I learnt on /tg/. There's just no fun or tension to be had when, like a predictable story or film, I can always guess the outcome.
Anemone wrote: On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.
But honestly Titans don't seem like the best Units to face Tau with exactly because of the fact that Tau can Mass-Produce a spacefighter with a Heavy Railgun. One cannot compare the amount of time and resources which the Tau Empire waste on squadrons of AX-10 Tigersharks to how long and exhaustive the process of creating new versions of the heavier Titans designations. Although I understand Forgeworld and GW's recent predilection with just giving the Tau bigger mechs the truth is that I'd have preferred if they stuck to the Tau's strengths of confronting the inane nature of their foes with more practical responses. An enormously lumbering terrestrial unit is far better engaged with large amounts of units which can remain a safe distance from it, move rapidly, but also have firepower sufficient to bring it down. Already with Battlesuits you have the logic being glimpsed; if virtually all armies you fight have large amounts of landlocked troops and combatants and virtually your entire army can move into the air and stay out of range, you have an incredible advantage. But big Mechs are popular, particularly most 40k fans seem to prefer big and lumbering to sleek, so I get why GW and Forgeworld focus on it since there's no doubting the popularity of the Tau'nar and such.
Regardless, as part of this conversation, I must say that I really just am finding it difficult to maintain an interest in 40k's fluff anymore. A game where one side virtually wins everything of significance ever is just not fun to me at all. If a playable faction ever just got totally removed or such or destroyed beyond recognition I'd probably stop; I have friends who play with all those different factions, I think they're all fun and interesting in their own way, and I'd rather see them actually contributing rather than endlessly playing second fiddle or dying. But that's me, hardly a popular opinion as I learnt on /tg/. There's just no fun or tension to be had when, like a predictable story or film, I can always guess the outcome.
I mean, it's not hard to guess the outcome if all things stay the same, but GW will always have some plot twist to keep each faction alive and relevant.
Kauyon ends with Tau victory over the space marines, but the astra militarum are coming to take their place with a far larger force.
On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.
Titans caused huge devastation to the Tau previously and only Mantas could previously counter them - if they are required for fleet defence etc then they did not have anything. One of the things the Titans could do was project massive firepower at very long range whilst remaining very hard to kill due to their void shields and armour which negated the usual Tau advantages.
Kais destroyed a Titan on his own (well with a bit of help from a Space Marine) but it was not yet really active and was just powering up to full functionality.
The Tigershark was very effective (against the lightest class of Titan) as a unlooked for strike with the Tau having surprise and more importantly dominance of the air - if this was contested or a heavier class of Titan it would likely be more difficult and require a larger number of strike aircraft with their own air cover.
I agree I don't like the super suit, sorry M or G Creature theme but as you say that's what GW are going for.
Of course the problem with bigger titans is that a sensible army just pulls everything out and nukes the whole region from orbit. Titans are tough, but they aren't going to survive a full broadside from a battleship.
(Not that I expect GW to ever acknowledge this, since 40k ships seem to have their guns turn into the equivalent of tossing a few frag grenades whenever they point them at a ground target.)
Peregrine wrote: Of course the problem with bigger titans is that a sensible army just pulls everything out and nukes the whole region from orbit. Titans are tough, but they aren't going to survive a full broadside from a battleship.
(Not that I expect GW to ever acknowledge this, since 40k ships seem to have their guns turn into the equivalent of tossing a few frag grenades whenever they point them at a ground target.)
Well if you have a game about big robots / battlesuits etc you can't have them all destroyed without ever fighting each other - same in any game universe................ Especially since GW no longer has a space combat game so that element of the fluff is just sadly neglected.........
@McNinja: Except I have to disagree, I haven't felt Orks, Tau or Necron have really been relevant or mattered as anything more than punching bags for a while now. I'd have disagreed about the Tau, since by their scope they made significant differences to the status quo, except the writing is quite explicit on the wall that we'll see a return to the status quo shortly, or a reversion from it which removes the viability of a playable faction. Unfortunately fact still is that I know the moment anything 'counts' in a deeper sense only one faction is allowed to win. That is, to me, the very epitome of boring. I feel bad for my friends and how laughably poor their factions perform in anything of importance.
I remember I had a conversation with my little brother about what faction he ought to start; he had an interest in Tau, but when we got to talking about fluff I had nothing to recommend him on. All I could ws warn him don't go looking for anything online virtually the entire online fanbase wants them squatted. When starting any non-Imperium faction is that unappealing it makes me, as I said, lose an appetite for the Fluff completely,
(It should be noted that this is only from a Fluff perspective, of course, numerous people play for the Crunch and only that, but the circle I move in tends to enjoy the Fluff at least to an extent and make decisions based on it).
@Mr Morden: The thing about the Tigershark though is that they can simply make more of the AX-10 class. In particular Taros did not have a by any means 'huge' Tau Army either, not comparable to what Shadowsun is currently (for example) commanding or which participated in the Great War of Confederation. Since the Tau can mass produce Models they can easily, in a numbers game, produce far more AX-10 Tiger Sharks then there are Titans. The key point would be, as you say, air superiority since the AX-10 Tigersharks need to be kept sage. Not that it really matters. In Warhammer 40k victory will occur as the narrative demands, looking at it in terms of material and such doesn't really give one side any more edge than the other. Who GW wants to win will win and, invariably, it'll probably be the Imperium.
True, tau do have an edge in the fluff with air superiority, however in the game, they fall behind almost all the imperial flyers, they get beaten down hard. Even my dark angels flyers are better now.
... The Nephilim is not a better interceptor than the Barracuda, Formosa. I just flat out refuse that concept. It's certainly not better than the A-X-10, which is the 40k equivalent of the WW2 Beaufighter - a highly successful weapon for all that it was basically a light bomber with extra guns.
Yeah, the barracuda is pretty good. Sort of average flyer toughness, but it has some great weaponry (seriously, this things mounts a fething mbt gun, has a TL missile pod for some more damage, and the option of taking up to 4 seekers). And some cool special rules (it's burst cannons ignore cover from jinking/moving flat out, and it gets +1 on it's jink save).
Sorry guys, didn't realise the barracuda was in the tau Codex.....
When gw writes fluff it only writes fluff for units in that Codex, is the barracuda mentioned anywhere outside of forge world?
I mean if we're allowed fw units. Then the fire raptor is a dark angels flyer and is hands down better than any tau flyer, so is the xyphon, storm bird too, also the manta is pretty amazing, what about the orca, both are flyers, do we include them?
But bad sarcasm aside, if we do factor in all the imperial flyers, and the tau ones, the Tau ones are nowhere near as good, including the barracuda, it's beaten by the xyphon quite handily, the two tau Codex flyers are both awful still, the ax10 is ok, but it's a single strD shot, the thunderhawk is much better (our only Strd flyer, hence the comparison).
Fluff wise, the Tau only win air superiority due to the lack of imperial flyers being available and in taros, stealth suits attacking the airfields, game wise, tau flyers just are not as good, and the Codex ones specifically are worse than almost every imperial flyer.
Point is, as much as I like tau, game wise, they cannot compete on flyers, with almost any imperial faction able to take them, fluff wise the plot armour saves them, so against a proper imperial presence, they would never have air superiority, but fluff / tabletop.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Not as in a general mention of them, but in relationship to the barracuda. You didn't say "codex only". I never claimed it was in the codex.
And fluff-wise the codex fliers aren't actually complete crap. From their descriptions at the very least.
Why are they so bad? No one has ever explained that to me, just took it as gospel.
They're overpriced (although not excessively so), and badly deigned. Very little thought went into them. And when you have options like the barracuda and remoras available to you, there's not contest. And, in many tau armies they complete for spots with pathfinders.
Formosa wrote: True, tau do have an edge in the fluff with air superiority, however in the game, they fall behind almost all the imperial flyers, they get beaten down hard. Even my dark angels flyers are better now.
Hmm not sure - individually Tau aircraft are very good but as far as I read it not much or indeed any better than Imperial equivalents - and of course both are horribly outclassed by Elder fighters that's by the fluff - which I go by more than the game..............
From the IA the lightning has the edge on pure speed over the baracuda, but the barracuda is more maneuverable and better armed. Just fluff of course, I'm not sure how they stack up in game.
Well fluff wise, I see a Titian as akin to the battleship.
It's Firepower's and armour is immense, however to work effectively it needs support. Ie as part of a combined arms battle group such as orbital defence. Air support and fighter screens, anti air and infrianty units to deal with smaller, faster foes and mobile anit armour units for lighter enemies not worth using itsa guns on.
A titan is vunrable on its own. And yes can be beaten, no sane deployment would have them working alone.
Guard, navy, tech guard, space marines and more all part of one battle group that each furfill a role, the titan is a powerful element but relies on the others.
Formosa wrote: Sorry guys, didn't realise the barracuda was in the tau Codex.....
When gw writes fluff it only writes fluff for units in that Codex, is the barracuda mentioned anywhere outside of forge world?
I mean if we're allowed fw units. Then the fire raptor is a dark angels flyer and is hands down better than any tau flyer, so is the xyphon, storm bird too, also the manta is pretty amazing, what about the orca, both are flyers, do we include them?
But bad sarcasm aside, if we do factor in all the imperial flyers, and the tau ones, the Tau ones are nowhere near as good, including the barracuda, it's beaten by the xyphon quite handily, the two tau Codex flyers are both awful still, the ax10 is ok, but it's a single strD shot, the thunderhawk is much better (our only Strd flyer, hence the comparison).
Fluff wise, the Tau only win air superiority due to the lack of imperial flyers being available and in taros, stealth suits attacking the airfields, game wise, tau flyers just are not as good, and the Codex ones specifically are worse than almost every imperial flyer.
The Thunderhawk's D-gun can't hit a flier, while the A-X-10's can though.
The A-X-10 can outrange and snipe out any opposing fliers. I'd back a Tigershark over the Fire Raptor in an interceptor role any day.
Is the Xyphon really that good? It looked totally lacklustre to me, a couple of overpriced lascannons and a meh missile launcher.
______________
The main problem with the Tau Codex fliers is that they're a bomber and a ground attack craft respectively - there's no interceptor or fighter there, so when comparing codex units only, the Tau seriously have no air-to-air options outside the silly Interceptor Drones.
Hey, remoras are great. They put out a ridiculous amount of 5/5 shots at 36", and have a networked marker and 2 seekers a piece. As well as being dirt cheap fliers with shrouded, so not that tough, but a real pain to kill. I love the little guys.
Also, you can the 3 barracudas for the price of 2 xyphons, with enough for a couple of seekers left over.
Formosa wrote: Sorry guys, didn't realise the barracuda was in the tau Codex.....
When gw writes fluff it only writes fluff for units in that Codex, is the barracuda mentioned anywhere outside of forge world?
I mean if we're allowed fw units. Then the fire raptor is a dark angels flyer and is hands down better than any tau flyer, so is the xyphon, storm bird too, also the manta is pretty amazing, what about the orca, both are flyers, do we include them?
But bad sarcasm aside, if we do factor in all the imperial flyers, and the tau ones, the Tau ones are nowhere near as good, including the barracuda, it's beaten by the xyphon quite handily, the two tau Codex flyers are both awful still, the ax10 is ok, but it's a single strD shot, the thunderhawk is much better (our only Strd flyer, hence the comparison).
Fluff wise, the Tau only win air superiority due to the lack of imperial flyers being available and in taros, stealth suits attacking the airfields, game wise, tau flyers just are not as good, and the Codex ones specifically are worse than almost every imperial flyer.
The Thunderhawk's D-gun can't hit a flier, while the A-X-10's can though.
The A-X-10 can outrange and snipe out any opposing fliers. I'd back a Tigershark over the Fire Raptor in an interceptor role any day.
Is the Xyphon really that good? It looked totally lacklustre to me, a couple of overpriced lascannons and a meh missile launcher.
______________
The main problem with the Tau Codex fliers is that they're a bomber and a ground attack craft respectively - there's no interceptor or fighter there, so when comparing codex units only, the Tau seriously have no air-to-air options outside the silly Interceptor Drones.
What makes you think that, thunderhawks have skyfire, skyfire can fire blasts at fliers.
Skyfire cannot fire blasts at fliers. Re-read Hard to Hit.
Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.
Why are we talking about game mechanics in a fluff thread about the best flyer? And, more importantly, why are we assuming that 40k game mechanics matter the most? For example, in Aeronautica Imperialis (the air combat game, which should presumably have the most accurate flyer stats) both the Thunderhawk's turbolaser and the Tigershark's railgun are ground attack weapons that can not be used against flyers.
Apologies, it wasn't my attention to kick off such a discussion, just a meandering.
As an overall point I'd normally say that fluff and crunch rarely intersect reliably and so shouldn't be used to judge each other. But I've also of late been so apathetic about the fluff that I hardly connect with it anymore. If we do use fluff to determine things it just means we'll always have the same answer so that drags me down.
As for the actual topic, to be honest, I think this thread has run its course in that department anyway. Since canonically the answer already exists that the Imperium is going to win there isn't a need for a discussion here anymore, as far as I understand it.
@jhe: Of course the Battleship did fade from usefulness, hence exactly why today it isn't utilized anymore as a predominant or viable military asset. An interesting parallel, I'd agree, but exactly the ability of a species like the Tau to engineer cheap masses of devices which endanger such a huge expenditure of time and resource easily can be seen as paralleling the diminishing role of the Battleship until it faded from military use.
Peregrine wrote: Why are we talking about game mechanics in a fluff thread about the best flyer? And, more importantly, why are we assuming that 40k game mechanics matter the most? For example, in Aeronautica Imperialis (the air combat game, which should presumably have the most accurate flyer stats) both the Thunderhawk's turbolaser and the Tigershark's railgun are ground attack weapons that can not be used against flyers.
Exactly. Both don't make much sense - the turbolaser is a concentrated laser beam and the railgun is a solid slug of metal being fired at mach 900. Both are easily usable against other aircraft and land vehicles alike. Just because the turbolaser creates an explosion when it strikes something doesn't change the fact that you can aim the beam the exact same way you aim the railgun.
/tg/ has a lot of it, 1d4chan has its fair share of it, you see it here from time to time (but here is far better than /tg/ and the others, hence why I prefer it here) you frequently see it in comments on any site related to 40k if the comments turn to discussion of Xenos or Tau releases (Natfka and such). Warseer had a thread not so long, if I recall, about 'what would you change in 40k canon' and one not-uncommon suggestion was have Tau xenocided by the Imperium or eaten by the Tyranids.
But I did specify 'online' to make clear that it doesn't mean the majority of 'players' or 'users' do, simply that its a common enough sentiment (specifically online) as to be reoccurring. I'm sure the Tau have enough of a fanbase that they at the very least make enough money for GW to not eliminate them. Hence I'm talking about pervasive online sentiment mostly. /tg/ archives has a whole dump of it, if you want I can copy and send it over to you?
Before this thread closes or whatnot ' I just want to thank all the contributors by making this topic reach seven pages! I don't now how it happened but boy am I proud.
Oh and Warzone Kauoun? I heard some guy talking about it and he really made it seem
Like the tau made a humiliating victory against the human
Anemone wrote: On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.
But honestly Titans don't seem like the best Units to face Tau with exactly because of the fact that Tau can Mass-Produce a spacefighter with a Heavy Railgun. One cannot compare the amount of time and resources which the Tau Empire waste on squadrons of AX-10 Tigersharks to how long and exhaustive the process of creating new versions of the heavier Titans designations. Although I understand Forgeworld and GW's recent predilection with just giving the Tau bigger mechs the truth is that I'd have preferred if they stuck to the Tau's strengths of confronting the inane nature of their foes with more practical responses. An enormously lumbering terrestrial unit is far better engaged with large amounts of units which can remain a safe distance from it, move rapidly, but also have firepower sufficient to bring it down. Already with Battlesuits you have the logic being glimpsed; if virtually all armies you fight have large amounts of landlocked troops and combatants and virtually your entire army can move into the air and stay out of range, you have an incredible advantage. But big Mechs are popular, particularly most 40k fans seem to prefer big and lumbering to sleek, so I get why GW and Forgeworld focus on it since there's no doubting the popularity of the Tau'nar and such.
Regardless, as part of this conversation, I must say that I really just am finding it difficult to maintain an interest in 40k's fluff anymore. A game where one side virtually wins everything of significance ever is just not fun to me at all. If a playable faction ever just got totally removed or such or destroyed beyond recognition I'd probably stop; I have friends who play with all those different factions, I think they're all fun and interesting in their own way, and I'd rather see them actually contributing rather than endlessly playing second fiddle or dying. But that's me, hardly a popular opinion as I learnt on /tg/. There's just no fun or tension to be had when, like a predictable story or film, I can always guess the outcome.
The Tigershark isn't a problem. Titans never deploy without significant protection, including Skitarii legions. And almost certainly a significant Imperial Navy presence as well, which means lots of air cover. Titans never go to war by themselves, they are always part of a much larger force. They're like modern aircraft carriers, who always have a large attendant fleet. Skitarii are plenty well equipped to take down aircraft too. The only time a Titan would be without air and ground support is if those assets had been destroyed in a long protracted campaign. Which would also mean the enemy air support is also likely shot to pieces, especially the Tau who cannot afford to get stuck in wars of attrition. The Imperium is very good at forcing and winning wars of attrition, which happens to be Tau kryptonite.
Plus Warlord and Emperor Titans have plenty of weapons capable of engaging airborne targets. The Tigershark and Manta aren't exactly small targets either.
I honestly can't see the Tau getting destroyed by the Imperium. Primarily because whoever created the Tau won't let them get exterminated. Whether you believe the Necrons created the Tau (in which case nearby Tomb Worlds will come to the aid of the Tau and butcher the Imperial Crusade, should the need arise) or you believe that the Eldar did (in which case Harlequins and/or Craftworlds come to the aid of the Tau), there will be some major assistance for the Tau should the IoM reach the point where victory is assured.
Eventually we will win and crush the Imperium. Now Warhammer 51k? Maybe we would be on the defensive and fighting for survival then. While humans and space marines are like the Eldar. And the Eldar have only a single planet left. DE have a permanent rift incursion into their section of the webway. It would be an interesting time indeed. Would Farsight be alive? Or would we kick off Warhammer 51k with him dying? Our Immortal Tau Emperor dead at last. Ha. What upstart species would be our downfall I wonder?
Grey Templar wrote: Titans never deploy without significant protection, including Skitarii legions.
Except when they did deploy without sufficient protection to stop a Tigershark from killing a titan in one shot. Seriously, it doesn't make much sense to talk about how Tau aircraft are helpless against titans and their support when we have such a clear example of the exact opposite.
Grey Templar wrote: Titans never deploy without significant protection, including Skitarii legions.
Except when they did deploy without sufficient protection to stop a Tigershark from killing a titan in one shot. Seriously, it doesn't make much sense to talk about how Tau aircraft are helpless against titans and their support when we have such a clear example of the exact opposite.
The situation is relevant but somewhat unusual IMO
The Imperium were getting desperate and finally managed to convince the small force of Mechanicum who had been grudgingly sent along (without their normal support troops etc) to field the 3 Scout Titans only supported by the Astartes and without proper air cover.
The two forces were devastating against the Tau ground forces (as Titans have been noted as being before) but the Tau had an ace in the whole which they fielded at just the right time and against exactly the right target .to test it - smallest Titan without adequate support.
The Taros campaign was a badly planned and poorly executed attempt to take a minor world - its quite possible it will happen again...................
Hopefully we will get a proper campaign book with a Tau/Mechancium war which would be pretty awesome to see / read and very different to the usual fare in so many ways.
Whether you believe the Necrons created the Tau (in which case nearby Tomb Worlds will come to the aid of the Tau and butcher the Imperial Crusade, should the need arise)
Necrons on nearby TW already awoke, saved a Tau world from the Nids and then slaughtered the entire Tau population who had turned out to welcome them as saviours.................. that Dynasty at least is no friends of the Tau.
I don't know it seems proper Tau/Mechancium war (at least what can be gleamed from the comments here) just means that the Tau die. Since, going by the comments, apparently when a Titan is deployed 'properly' it becomes invincible and destroys all Tau and only ever dies due to poor planning since it is otherwise untouchable. Personally that's not an interesting story to me if apparently it just needs to be deployed in the 'right' manner and instantly victory is assured.
I do agree with Peregrine on the matter of discussing the 'ideal' situation of a vehicle of war as if that is not something which of course is always true (if a vehicle is deployed in the correct fashion to maximize its strengths and with correct support to defend its weak points of course it will do well) isn't really that relevant here. I mean I'd assume its a self-evident truth.
Regardless its not like it changes any matters at large.
Anemone wrote: I don't know it seems proper Tau/Mechancium war (at least what can be gleamed from the comments here) just means that the Tau die. Since, going by the comments, apparently when a Titan is deployed 'properly' it becomes invincible and destroys all Tau and only ever dies due to poor planning since it is otherwise untouchable. Personally that's not an interesting story to me if apparently it just needs to be deployed in the 'right' manner and instantly victory is assured.
I do agree with Peregrine on the matter of discussing the 'ideal' situation of a vehicle of war as if that is not something which of course is always true (if a vehicle is deployed in the correct fashion to maximize its strengths and with correct support to defend its weak points of course it will do well) isn't really that relevant here. I mean I'd assume its a self-evident truth.
Regardless its not like it changes any matters at large.
no that's not was said - a lot of people were saying the opposite that now the Tau will be scything down Titans left right and centre with a couple of modified Tigersharks.
To me a full blown conflict would have the Tau facing the sheer weirdness of the Imperium with mad techno-science versus developing high tech.
Agreed re the fielding weapons of war but that works both ways - sometimes the Tau will not have air superiority for instance........
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
If you read the Tau Codex, you learn they had fought to a standstill but the Tau were being constantly reinforced. The Imperium had lost momentum and was losing the battle by attrition.
Eventually the Imperium's campaign would have been wiped out entirely, but only at great expense to the Tau. So when the Imperium begged permission to leave, the Tau allowed it. They had some recovering to do, as well as implementing changes to their military to combat the imperium more effectively in the future.
But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore
I find it odd that people are just now discovering why the Tau are such a horrifying threat. The speed at which they implement increasingly effective weapons and armor, coupled with the methodical way they expand is why I've always seen them as one of the largest threats in the galaxy. They innovate as quickly as Tyranids evolve. No other faction is even trying to compete in the arms race and battle suits are approaching Titan size.
Anemone wrote:I don't know it seems proper Tau/Mechancium war (at least what can be gleamed from the comments here) just means that the Tau die. Since, going by the comments, apparently when a Titan is deployed 'properly' it becomes invincible and destroys all Tau and only ever dies due to poor planning since it is otherwise untouchable. Personally that's not an interesting story to me if apparently it just needs to be deployed in the 'right' manner and instantly victory is assured.
I do agree with Peregrine on the matter of discussing the 'ideal' situation of a vehicle of war as if that is not something which of course is always true (if a vehicle is deployed in the correct fashion to maximize its strengths and with correct support to defend its weak points of course it will do well) isn't really that relevant here. I mean I'd assume its a self-evident truth.
Regardless its not like it changes any matters at large.
An "ideal" situation for a Titan is having a Battalion of Imperial Guard supporting it. Or a Cohort of Skitarii. Or pretty much any supporting units large enough to actually provide support (Space Marines simply aren't numerous enough for that kind of job). It's really a very simple job: if aircraft come aknockin', make sure the Titan has enough support to turn its guns upon the aircraft, if necessary. Plus, air support would be quite useful, as well, due to the fact that the Imperial Navy could essentially just drown the enemy fighters in Valkyries (or similar fighters) to keep them off of the Titans while the Titans wrecked face - however, air support would be a luxury, not a necessity. Also, do you really think that destroying a Warhound Titan signifies the Tau gutting any Titan Legii sent their way? Any Titan Legion sending any more than minimal strength is going to have, at the very least, Warlord Titans - which are vastly more a.)powerful and b.)durable (superior armour and Void Shielding) than Scou Titans (the type the Tau fans seem proud of killing).
Mr Morden wrote:
Whether you believe the Necrons created the Tau (in which case nearby Tomb Worlds will come to the aid of the Tau and butcher the Imperial Crusade, should the need arise)
Necrons on nearby TW already awoke, saved a Tau world from the Nids and then slaughtered the entire Tau population who had turned out to welcome them as saviours.................. that Dynasty at least is no friends of the Tau.
Yes, the Necrons are quite divided. My point, however, is that whatever Dynasty created the Tau (which clearly doesn't include the one that woke up post-Ethereals) won't let them die. Unless, of course, you believe the Eldar created the Tau, in which case, the Eldar won't let them die. Unless, of course, you believe that the Eldar have been dancing around the galaxy creating non-Warp-reflecting species left and right, in which case the Tau don't matter win or lose.
Archonate wrote:
Silverthorne wrote: My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.
If you read the Tau Codex, you learn they had fought to a standstill but the Tau were being constantly reinforced. The Imperium had lost momentum and was losing the battle by attrition.
Eventually the Imperium's campaign would have been wiped out entirely, but only at great expense to the Tau. So when the Imperium begged permission to leave, the Tau allowed it. They had some recovering to do, as well as implementing changes to their military to combat the imperium more effectively in the future. Yes, the Imperium sent a vastly undermanned Crusade to do the job, with only token Astartes forces assisting, with a force of 3 Scout Titans being the best big guns supplied for them (this is miniscule). The fact that the Tau were winning is more due to the fact that the Crusade was a small one to begin with, tackling a threat that the Imperium hadn't yet grasped.
But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore
I find it odd that people are just now discovering why the Tau are such a horrifying threat. The speed at which they implement increasingly effective weapons and armor, coupled with the methodical way they expand is why I've always seen them as one of the largest threats in the galaxy. They innovate as quickly as Tyranids evolve. No other faction is even trying to compete in the arms race and battle suits are approaching Titan size. People aren't "just now discovering" the Tau being a great threat. The fans have known this for years, but the Tau are only a dot on the map in comparison to the Imperium at large. The fact that they innovate so quickly is awesome, but all that that means is that they have the potential to become a major threat to the IoM; it isn't a guarentee. For instance, if the Imperium were actually able to muster a fully-manned Crusade with more than token squads of Astartes, full-blown Titan Legii, several dozen (or hundred) Regiments of Imperial Guard, and the Navy to match, they would curbstomp the Tau. The tragedy of the setting is that the Imperium has so many external threats that, were it to do so, it would be leaving itself vulnerable to a dozen other threats. The tragedy of the setting is that the Imperium is beset by so many enemies that it can't even defeat a player as minor as the Tau (which are meant to represent the many Xenos pocket empires dotting the Void).
Grey Templar wrote: Thats because nobody else needs to compete in the arms race. The Tau are playing billions of years of catchup and they're still way far behind.
Those billions of years of ketchup were played before the Imperium fought them. At this point Tau are leaving other races in the dust technologically. They're far enough ahead to compensate for their lack of mind weapons.
dusara217 wrote: An "ideal" situation for a Titan is having a Battalion of Imperial Guard supporting it.
Ok, so now you have to consider the Tau supporting elements as well. It's no longer a Tigershark against a titan, it's a Tigershark squadron with a squadron of Barracuda escorts and invisible stealth suits marking targets for over-the-horizon seeker missile strikes (which, unlike their tabletop version, certainly have a blast effect and can kill more than one guardsman at a time) to clear out any AA threats on the ground.
Plus, air support would be quite useful, as well, due to the fact that the Imperial Navy could essentially just drown the enemy fighters in Valkyries (or similar fighters) to keep them off of the Titans while the Titans wrecked face
The Valkyrie is not a fighter, at all. It's a transport helicopter with some rocket pods bolted to the wings to provide a little covering fire as the troops disembark. Its ability to engage fighters is purely a game mechanics thing in 40k. In reality the only thing a Valkyrie could do against a Barracuda or Tigershark is die.
Scout Titans (the type the Tau fans seem proud of killing).
It's not just that the Tau managed to kill a Warhound that's impressive, it's the fact that they killed it effortlessly. The Tigershark flew in and blew it away in one pass, like it was nothing more than another LRBT.
PS: the Manta is explicitly stated to be capable of matching the larger titan classes, it's just not as efficient or expendable as the Tigershark because of its other role as a transport.
It wasn't effortlessly. It was after a mad dash to desperately build something that could kill it, which they did by strapping the biggest gun they could onto a flyer. The Tigershark was really the text book example of an act of desperation, which they were lucky enough to have work. And it only worked because the Titans were not operating under normal conditions, like having air cover. Such an event is very very unlikely to occur again.
Grey Templar wrote: It wasn't effortlessly. It was after a mad dash to desperately build something that could kill it, which they did by strapping the biggest gun they could onto a flyer. The Tigershark was really the text book example of an act of desperation, which they were lucky enough to have work.
It was no such thing. It was a standard-issue aircraft undergoing its first combat testing on Taros. Sure, it used an existing airframe with new weapons (just like real-world aircraft often get upgrades) and was built to fill a need in the Tau army (just like any sensibly-designed unit), but it was not some kind of Imperial-style field modification with whatever guns are available bolted to whatever hull is available. After Taros the railgun Tigershark entered larger-scale production and started to see service as just another Tau unit.
And by "effortlessly" I mean that the Tigershark killed a Warhound in one pass. Within seconds of the Tigershark appearing the Warhound was a smoking wreck, which is about as long as a LRBT would have survived. That's not a battle, it's an execution.
And it only worked because the Titans were not operating under normal conditions, like having air cover. Such an event is very very unlikely to occur again.
Yeah, sure, whatever you say. Titans will always win because they will always have the perfect support for every possible situation and will never be vulnerable to attack, because titans are just special snowflakes like that.
How is it an act of desperation, at all? It was pretty rational decision. "Alright, we have a problem with titans, and we already know these guns are effective against them, but their current carriers (mantas) are not made for that kind of combat. Let's just stick them onto our other pre-existing platform (the tigershark) and use those.
And, again (which peregrine already pointed out and you conveniently ignored) who says the AX-1-0s are acting alone either? They will have support in the air and ground to take out the air cover. It's not going to be anywhere as easy as the last time, but not anywhere as difficult as you seem to think.
Yeah, sure, whatever you say. Titans will always win because they will always have the perfect support for every possible situation and will never be vulnerable to attack, because titans are just special snowflakes like that.
I can say the same thing about the Tau. They're really the special snowflakes here with silly levels of plot armor. Literally the only thing which has kept them from getting crushed by various invasions is an unexplained Deus ex machina. The Tyranids should have eaten the Tau empire, literally nothing explains where they were able to beat them off. The same with the various Waaaghs that have invaded Tau space. Only the half-assed Daemocles Crusade has a reasonable explanation because it was half-assed in the first place(and it still kicked the Tau Empire's ass relative to the power they brought)
Those billions of years of ketchup were played before the Imperium fought them. At this point Tau are leaving other races in the dust technologically. They're far enough ahead to compensate for their lack of mind weapons.
Leaving who in the dust technologically? Orks? In most ways but that's nothing new. The Imperium? In some ways, yes. In other ways (especially in naval terms) they're not. I certainly disagree that they have sufficient technology to compensate a lack of mind weapons or defences. The Necrons have Null fields to protect them from Psychic attacks. The Tau have nothing. Any Psychically strong force fighting them should have a massive advantage.
Peregrine wrote:And by "effortlessly" I mean that the Tigershark killed a Warhound in one pass. Within seconds of the Tigershark appearing the Warhound was a smoking wreck, which is about as long as a LRBT would have survived. That's not a battle, it's an execution.
Though the Warhound would have probably been easily salvaged. It only had two small holes in it after all. How exactly that caused it to be knocked out of commission I don't know (probably killed the crew I guess).
Co'tor Shas wrote:And, again (which peregrine already pointed out and you conveniently ignored) who says the AX-1-0s are acting alone either? They will have support in the air and ground to take out the air cover. It's not going to be anywhere as easy as the last time, but not anywhere as difficult as you seem to think.
While you have a point I think it's a bit premature to assume that they'll render Titan's obsolete as Anemone suggested. I think a lot of times in these discussions people struggle to remember off hand between who said what after a while (I know I do).
How mass-producible they are is also up for debate. After all if their more powerful weapons are really easy to produce they'd presumably use more of them.
There are also differences in how people perceive the larger Titans in general. Some of the background and novels suggests they can level cities in minutes and are nigh-indestructible against any non-Titan or boarding party despite their tendency to be destroyed when they appear in novels.
Chaos wins plain and simple. Why? Because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!!
In all seriousness though, this debate is just an endless line of my team is better than yours. The entire argument is going to be biased towards your own views on the setting. If you're a Tau player, dislike the Imperium in general, or take the game as Humanity's dying moments then clearly the Tau took the worst the Imperium could throw and are ready to kick their ass even worse the next time. If you're a fan of the Imperium or view the game as Humanity enduring through everything then this is a temporary setback before humanity triumphs.
The setting is suppose to be up in the air. Maybe humanity falls, maybe it kicks utter ass. It's the 11:59 and everyone is waiting for midnight. The beauty of the setting is anything is possible. Except maybe a squat victory.
Those billions of years of ketchup were played before the Imperium fought them. At this point Tau are leaving other races in the dust technologically. They're far enough ahead to compensate for their lack of mind weapons.
Leaving who in the dust technologically? Orks? In most ways but that's nothing new. The Imperium? In some ways, yes. In other ways (especially in naval terms) they're not. I certainly disagree that they have sufficient technology to compensate a lack of mind weapons or defences. The Necrons have Null fields to protect them from Psychic attacks. The Tau have nothing. Any Psychically strong force fighting them should have a massive advantage.
What exactly do the Tau have that's better than what the Imperium has (outside of their invisible Stealth Teams)?
Peregrine wrote:And by "effortlessly" I mean that the Tigershark killed a Warhound in one pass. Within seconds of the Tigershark appearing the Warhound was a smoking wreck, which is about as long as a LRBT would have survived. That's not a battle, it's an execution.
Though the Warhound would have probably been easily salvaged. It only had two small holes in it after all. How exactly that caused it to be knocked out of commission I don't know (probably killed the crew I guess). Plus, the Warhound had the weaponry to take down the Tigershark; it likely didn't realize the danger it was in until after it had already been deep-sixed.
Co'tor Shas wrote:And, again (which peregrine already pointed out and you conveniently ignored) who says the AX-1-0s are acting alone either? They will have support in the air and ground to take out the air cover. It's not going to be anywhere as easy as the last time, but not anywhere as difficult as you seem to think.
While you have a point I think it's a bit premature to assume that they'll render Titan's obsolete as Anemone suggested. I think a lot of times in these discussions people struggle to remember off hand between who said what after a while (I know I do).And, again, you automagically assume that the Tau will have air superiority. Yes, the Tigersharks will have support (this is obvious af), but the Imperial Navy could easily [literally] drown them in Lightnings and Thunderbolts, should an actual Crusade be launched that had more than token offerings (like a mere 9 Regiments of IG).
How mass-producible they are is also up for debate. After all if their more powerful weapons are really easy to produce they'd presumably use more of them.
There are also differences in how people perceive the larger Titans in general. Some of the background and novels suggests they can level cities in minutes and are nigh-indestructible against any non-Titan or boarding party despite their tendency to be destroyed when they appear in novels.Titans are only as tough as the author wants them to be. If you're going by Mechanicum, so long as they have Skitarii support (or even Knight Titan support), they will auto-win due to the sheer firepower they can put out. This is what I like to go by, simply because the sheer firepower you see on them is incredible; more than enough to tackle virtually anything, so long as they don't have to worry about being boarded or overwhelmed by sheer numbers (both of which can be covered by adequate supporting units, such as Skitarii, who were specifically designed to support Titans), or hit by a titan-killer they didn't know the foe even had.
Great we're back at the 'my side always wins your side sucks you should have been killed and destroyed only plot armour saves you my faction makes total sense and is awesome while yours sucks and clearly never stood a chance whatever everything about your faction sucks even the stuff GW canonically states about them at the opening of every codex isn't true'. This is why the Fluff is so hard to enjoy now, it's just endless trying to argue 'my faction' is awesome and your 'faction' isn't. Particularly galling since it virtually always seems to come down to Imperium players saying the Nids should have eaten the Tau or a Waaagh destroyed them as if the idea of Empires moving from small to big is impossible and the only Superpowers must begin as superpowers.
@RandomEvilGuy: I didn't mean to suggest that Titans were obsolete. I was simply discussing the interesting historical parallel of a Titan and Battleship. Battleships, I meant, became obsolete. That doesn't mean Titans will. I prefer not to denigrate any whole army as 'pathetic and should have died ages ago with no chance of survival or achievement at all'. To me all factions have their strengths and weaknesses, the potential for growth or decay and a fighting chance. But that's me.
Not very many people will want to know because people like YOU who want to keep this game overpriced
So, considering that in YOUR PERFECT WORLD, if people dont spend $500+ on a single army, then they are gakky Warhammer players and dont deserve to play
So yeah, dont even fething ask questions on this board because its people like you that want to keep others out of this game because you dont want them in your little circle, in which you consider the entirety of the Warhammer community because you think that you are the king of them
ATXMILEY wrote:Not very many people will want to know because people like YOU who want to keep this game overpriced
So, considering that in YOUR PERFECT WORLD, if people dont spend $500+ on a single army, then they are gakky Warhammer players and dont deserve to play
So yeah, dont even fething ask questions on this board because its people like you that want to keep others out of this game because you dont want them in your little circle, in which you consider the entirety of the Warhammer community because you think that you are the king of them
Dude, it's an internet forum. Calm the feth down.
Anemone wrote:Great we're back at the 'my side always wins your side sucks you should have been killed and destroyed only plot armour saves you my faction makes total sense and is awesome while yours sucks and clearly never stood a chance whatever everything about your faction sucks even the stuff GW canonically states about them at the opening of every codex isn't true'. This is why the Fluff is so hard to enjoy now, it's just endless trying to argue 'my faction' is awesome and your 'faction' isn't. Particularly galling since it virtually always seems to come down to Imperium players saying the Nids should have eaten the Tau or a Waaagh destroyed them as if the idea of Empires moving from small to big is impossible and the only Superpowers must begin as superpowers.
@RandomEvilGuy: I didn't mean to suggest that Titans were obsolete. I was simply discussing the interesting historical parallel of a Titan and Battleship. Battleships, I meant, became obsolete. That doesn't mean Titans will. I prefer not to denigrate any whole army as 'pathetic and should have died ages ago with no chance of survival or achievement at all'. To me all factions have their strengths and weaknesses, the potential for growth or decay and a fighting chance. But that's me.
@kiwi: I agree wholeheartedly.
What? No, that's not what this has become at all. We're making genuine comparisons between fluff that has been posted. How the feth did you get that out of this? *scratches head*
@dusara: Arguing one side is better is literally what this has developed loved too, if you want examples we can simply refer to the statements says no that the Tyranid and Orks 'ought' to have destroyed the Tau by now, that a Titan 'auto-wins' if given the right support, that Tau technology is inferior to the Imperium's (an earlier poster implied inferior to virtually everyone), that the Tau suffered a 'half-assed' crusade which I don't recall being something GW in canon calling it, denigrate any success by one side as due to pure 'chance' and impossible to replicate or completely unrelated to their competency and such. The moment a discussion becomes simply denigrating one playable faction over and over and over again as being 'weak', 'pointless' or surviving only by 'plot armor' (as if that isn't true of everyone) I lose all hope for it.I can give more but, to be honest, once I see people bring up the 'Tau should be dead' argument it kills all interest and joy in me. Honestly I'll never see the fun in reducing another persons playable faction or their stake within it.
So yeah bickering over who's side is better and insisting one side survives by pure chance and the other by pure awesome is exactly the kind of discussion which reduces all my interest in fluff. I prefer to see all the factions as competent and capable in their own right. But that's me.
EDIT: As an aside, since it was bugging me since I remembered it differently, I just re-read Taros and the Warhounds are supported by a spearhead of Space Marines from the 2nd, 3rd and 6th Companies of the Raptors Chapter (a Chapter noted for fighting Tau) and elect a of a Cadian Regiment. We are told their are 'sprawling amounts of infantry and armour support' and the Forgeworld book itself (so canon) describes this as being a 'true combined army of the Imperium' and that this would be the first time the Tau on Taros fight a proper combined and supported Imperium force. So I really don't think you can say the Titans on Taros weren't 'supported' since the book says the exact opposite. Additionally I didn't read anywhere within the book that the deployment of the Titans was considered 'improper' or poorly thought out. Additionally the Tau fought full Titan legions on Dal'yth; the Legio Thanataris for example, and these were held in check by Manta's as part of the Tau plan.
I hate doing this, really I do, this discussion grates at me, but I can't stand trying to denigrate any one faction as being utterly impotent and irrelevant. But I do this to myself I should just stop reading it, there's really no other solution, everyone knows how Mont'ka will end because no Narrative Supplement ever ends differently. I really should just quit. This is a game for ALL players, regardless of faction, to enjoy. That means their faction not being utterly irrelevant or tangential. I don't think ANY faction should have died/been destroyed at all. But that's just me.
Anemone wrote: @dusara: Arguing one side is better is literally what this has developed loved too, if you want examples we can simply refer to the statements says no that the Tyranid and Orks 'ought' to have destroyed the Tau by now, that a Titan 'auto-wins' if given the right support, that Tau technology is inferior to the Imperium's (an earlier poster implied inferior to virtually everyone), that the Tau suffered a 'half-assed' crusade which I don't recall being something GW in canon calling it, denigrate any success by one side as due to pure 'chance' and impossible to replicate or completely unrelated to their competency and such. The moment a discussion becomes simply denigrating one playable faction over and over and over again as being 'weak', 'pointless' or surviving only by 'plot armor' (as if that isn't true of everyone) I lose all hope for it.I can give more but, to be honest, once I see people bring up the 'Tau should be dead' argument it kills all interest and joy in me. Honestly I'll never see the fun in reducing another persons playable faction or their stake within it.
So yeah bickering over who's side is better and insisting one side survives by pure chance and the other by pure awesome is exactly the kind of discussion which reduces all my interest in fluff. I prefer to see all the factions as competent and capable in their own right. But that's me.
EDIT: As an aside, since it was bugging me since I remembered it differently, I just re-read Taros and the Warhounds are supported by a spearhead of Space Marines from the 2nd, 3rd and 6th Companies of the Raptors Chapter (a Chapter noted for fighting Tau) and elect a of a Cadian Regiment. We are told their are 'sprawling amounts of infantry and armour support' and the Forgeworld book itself (so canon) describes this as being a 'true combined army of the Imperium' and that this would be the first time the Tau on Taros fight a proper combined and supported Imperium force. So I really don't think you can say the Titans on Taros weren't 'supported' since the book says the exact opposite. Additionally I didn't read anywhere within the book that the deployment of the Titans was considered 'improper' or poorly thought out. Additionally the Tau fought full Titan legions on Dal'yth; the Legio Thanataris for example, and these were held in check by Manta's as part of the Tau plan.
I hate doing this, really I do, this discussion grates at me, but I can't stand trying to denigrate any one faction as being utterly impotent and irrelevant. But I do this to myself I should just stop reading it, there's really no other solution, everyone knows how Mont'ka will end because no Narrative Supplement ever ends differently. I really should just quit. This is a game for ALL players, regardless of faction, to enjoy. That means their faction not being utterly irrelevant or tangential. I don't think ANY faction should have died/been destroyed at all. But that's just me.
Yup, Tau wins insurmountable odds because they are a race willing to learn from their mistakes. In the Kauyon book, they adapt and improvise after learning what the marines can do. It is shown that Shadowsun used the mirrorcodex that Farsight created to fight the marines better. They are willing to do everything for the greater good. And also, they defeated the nids due to their science experiments and the poison they made. If you think that is fluff armour, then I think daemons that just get sucked back into the warp is fluff armour. The humans being able to travel the warp is fluff armour, and the emperor being the greatest psyker is fluff armour.
@anemone You're going to find things like that in most threads, but there are genuine arguments on here. Getting pissy about little stuff like that is, frankly, petty and immature.
Also, I never actually read up on Taros, so that's cool. Warhounds got wrecked by Tau Tigersharks. Knowing the AdMech, they probably sent recordings of the battle to a nearby Forge World, which created countermeasure protocols and gathered the resources necessary for it before promptly forgetting about it
Also, I said 'auto-win', then put several things that would negate the 'auto-win', which is basically saying that it isn't an auto-win.
As with any other single faction in the setting, if the Imperium were permitted to focus all of its resources against that target, that target would be Ended.
It is a fact of the setting, however, that the Imperium is never permitted to do such a thing.
However, if every other faction took a century or two off and just sat on their butts, and the Imperium realized this immediately and turned its attention to a single enemy, that enemy would be utterly and completely exterminated.
Psienesis wrote: As with any other single faction in the setting, if the Imperium were permitted to focus all of its resources against that target, that target would be Ended.
It is a fact of the setting, however, that the Imperium is never permitted to do such a thing.
However, if every other faction took a century or two off and just sat on their butts, and the Imperium realized this immediately and turned its attention to a single enemy, that enemy would be utterly and completely exterminated.
The sad thing is many races do that as well. Orks united will defeat humans. Necrons all awaken and united will also do it. Nids are already doing it. I'm sure chaos can do it as well.
The only ones that cannot do it are eldar and tau because both are small and even when united does not have the size to fight.
@dusara: If disliking those things and expressing a belief that every faction, as a playable faction in a totally fictional universe intended for real people to enjoy, is influential/important/effective/successful in its own right to its own standards and conditions makes me immature then, to be frank, I do not mind that sort of immaturity. It does not change, at large, anything of which I have said. If that is what you wish to call me then that is your choice. That is not to denigrate that there cannot be good arguments/valid points or such made within it. Of course those can exist even within the worst of argumentation processes, those two existences do not need to have a logical connexion to each other, so I'm not trying to say that nothing of value emerges. My point is simply that the overall direction of this thread has become (as kiwi pointed out) a series of biased comparisons performed by groups who already have in their mind the group they are going to support to the hilt regardless. Since it is based off a fictional property in which both groups being supported have been talked up/promoted/propagandised and advertised at differing times by the creators there is very unlikely to be a definitive answer (I am not even sure what the 'question' or the purpose of the comparisons is). However, with that being said, I am in no means preventing you from continuing, simply making clear by dislike and lack of enjoyment from the process of trying to diminish someone else's playable faction and their stake therein. That's not fun to me. At all. As I've said all the armies, to me, are cool and awesome. I've never felt the need to trumpet one or another as 'better' or 'higher' in terms of playability or importance. But, again, that's me.
@bleak: Agreed on both your points.
Regardless I don't feel like discussing on this thread anymore, we already have a likely answer to the question, so I'm taking a break to do something enjoyable instead. If you have any queries (or criticisms) to address to me rather please PM them to me. The direction is simply off putting to me. If other people want to do it, of course, that's their choice and that's fine. At the same time, though, I do not need to partake and if I'd prefer to not be involved I won't. I'll try to find something more to my tastes.
It's not immature to express an opinion, its immature to freak out every time somebody throws an insult around. People aren't nice. That's a fact of life; one that most people learn at a very early age and come to an understanding that it is simply not worth it to get pissy every time somebody says something flippantly disrespectful.
EDIT: this is OT, so I'm gonna stop discussing this
dusara217 wrote: It's not immature to express an opinion, its immature to freak out every time somebody throws an insult around. People aren't nice. That's a fact of life; one that most people learn at a very early age and come to an understanding that it is simply not worth it to get pissy every time somebody says something flippantly disrespectful.
EDIT: this is OT, so I'm gonna stop discussing this
You may wish to read the forum rules if you want to continue to post here. "Just deal with the insults" is not in line with those rules.
dusara217 wrote: It's not immature to express an opinion, its immature to freak out every time somebody throws an insult around. People aren't nice. That's a fact of life; one that most people learn at a very early age and come to an understanding that it is simply not worth it to get pissy every time somebody says something flippantly disrespectful.
EDIT: this is OT, so I'm gonna stop discussing this
You may wish to read the forum rules if you want to continue to post here. "Just deal with the insults" is not in line with those rules.
This is true. However, the only thing you will get for freaking out about insults is wasted time and negative emotions; neither of which are worth the effort.
But, seriously, I'm done talking about this. If you wish to continue the conversation, PM me
dusara217 wrote: What exactly do the Tau have that's better than what the Imperium has (outside of their invisible Stealth Teams)?
Oh man where do I start...
At the infantry level, Tau make use of nano tech to produce their armor for light infantry. Nano tech involves AI and therefore cannot be achieved by the Imperium. Fio'tak is lighter and stronger than anything the imperial light infantry can produce.
For heavy infantry, Tau can produce armor that's equal to power armor (but much lighter), except the Tau equivalent turns invisible and accommodates heavier weapons.
On the weapons front, Pulse rifles are lighter than lasguns. And I needn't say anything about the firepower of Tau light infantry putting that of Imperial heavy infantry to shame, and at greater range.
Other tech includes:
-A built in telemetry monitor in each suit of Tau combat armor.
-The Tau wireless uplink that makes up their battle network, giving each soldier the sum of all battlefield intelligence.
-The use of markerlights which uses their battle net to triangulate target locations, allowing Fire Warriors to shoot accurately at targets they can't even see, by automatically calculating optimum firing trajectories and uploading a personalized holographic reticule to each soldier's helmet.
-Blacksun Filters.
-Advanced AI tech
-Rail weapon ballistics tech
Exploding shells are like flintlock rifles to the Tau. They used black power back when they were primitives. This fact trumps ALL Imperial heavy artillery and bolter tech.
I could go on and on. Point to any piece of imperial tech, excluding those requiring psychic power, and the Tau equivalent will be superior.
P.S. Directed at whomever was saying Tau have silly plot armor: I always laugh out loud when an imperial fan accuses the Tau of having annoying plot armor. The Imperium has the worst plot armor in the entire mythos. They inexplicably succeed on all fronts, against the odds, and with the most irritating arrogance. Space Marines should, by all accounts, be extinct. This is another subject I could rant on and on about.
All of those things exist in the Imperium, in superior forms. The Imperium doesn't equip all their soldiers to that level though because 1) its way too expensive and 2) its unnecessary.
Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Grey Templar wrote: All of those things exist in the Imperium, in superior forms. The Imperium doesn't equip all their soldiers to that level though because 1) its way too expensive and 2) its unnecessary.
Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Pretty much. A good example of this is in Fallout (I think it's a prudent comparison given the recent release of FO4), where the NCR goes against the Brotherhood of Steel. Initially, the BoS kick serious arse given their superior tech and training, but cannot handle the superior numbers and infrastructure of the NCR that allows them sustain losses at a rate that eventually wears down the BoS. The BoS are then largely forced into hiding (at least in their holdings of the Mojave and California) since they can't handle any further direct confrontations.
The Imperium is like the NCR in this sense, except x1000000000 of course.
dusara217 wrote: What exactly do the Tau have that's better than what the Imperium has (outside of their invisible Stealth Teams)?
Oh man where do I start...
At the infantry level, Tau make use of nano tech to produce their armor for light infantry. Nano tech involves AI and therefore cannot be achieved by the Imperium. Fio'tak is lighter and stronger than anything the imperial light infantry can produce.
It's less that the Imperium can't make it and more that they won't. The AdMech has strict guidelines in place due to the War of the Iron Men, but they don't generally destroy STC Blueprints unless they've been corrupted by Chaos. Many of the Data-vaults on Forge Worlds contain STC Blueprints that haven't seen the light of day since the days of the Horus Heresy, and likely never will.
Also, Spyrer Hunting Rigs, anyone?
For heavy infantry, Tau can produce armor that's equal to power armor (but much lighter), except the Tau equivalent turns invisible and accommodates heavier weapons.
Tau Battlesuits are bulkier and heavier than standard Imperial Power Armour. Imperial Power Armour is more dextrous, though it isn't as powerful as the larger Tau Battlesuits. Key word here being "larger", as the strength-to-volume ratio isn't necessarily any greater with Tau exoskeletons than it is on Imperial exoskeletons.
On the weapons front, Pulse rifles are lighter than lasguns. And I needn't say anything about the firepower of Tau light infantry putting that of Imperial heavy infantry to shame, and at greater range.
Pulse Rifles vs. lasguns for standard infantry weapons, Lasguns win. For one simple reason: cheapness. The Lasgun is insanely easy to mass produce (and doesn't take many resources), and lasgun Power Cells can be recharged virtually anything that emits energy (that includes literally throwing a Power Cell into a camp fire). Whereas, Pulse Rifles are far more expensive and more difficult to maintain.
Pulse Rifles vs. Bolters: The issue here is that the Tabletop does not reflect the Fluff here. The Bolter is very much a shock 'n awe weapon. It literally blows you up from the inside. Who's going to want to fight when their buddy just exploded right next to them and showerd blood and gooey bits eveywhere? Oh, look, more 30 MM grenades flying at me from an Assault Rifle (not a direct parallel, but you get the picture)! Pulse Rifles are better at long range, and likely would make excellent weapons for the Astartes and similar organizations (the Inquisition and Rogue Traders undoubtedly already make use of it), but their simply not as durable as Bolters, nor do they have the shock 'n awe value.
Other tech includes:
-A built in telemetry monitor in each suit of Tau combat armor.
Power Armour has this, as well. Alongside pretty much any Imperial Armour that includes a HUD
-The Tau wireless uplink that makes up their battle network, giving each soldier the sum of all battlefield intelligence.
-The use of markerlights which uses their battle net to triangulate target locations, allowing Fire Warriors to shoot accurately at targets they can't even see, by automatically calculating optimum firing trajectories and uploading a personalized holographic reticule to each soldier's helmet.
This isn't beyond the ken of the AdMech at all; they have the tech, they just don't use it. It's basically just a targeting computer that interfaces with a transmitting device that is relaying information regarding the enemy's location.
-Blacksun Filters.
Auto-senses, anyone?
-Advanced AI tech
Imperium doesn't use this for a reason, yadda yadda yadda... Also, Spyrer Hunting Rigs, anyone?
-Rail weapon ballistics tech
Seriously? You honestly think that the Imperium doesn't have something as simple as a Magnetic Accelerator? Considering the fact that we have magnetic accelerator weapons today, I highly doubt that the Imperium is incapable of producing these.
Exploding shells are like flintlock rifles to the Tau. They used black power back when they were primitives. This fact trumps ALL Imperial heavy artillery and bolter tech.
Do you know anything about modern ballistics? We stopped using such crude materials as black powder in firearms more than a century ago. Modern firearms utilize guncotton, which is far cleaner and more powerful than black powder (though many muzzle-loader enthusiasts still like to use black powder firearms). The idea that they wouldn't have found an even more effective material in the next 23k+ years is utter ludicrous. Not only that, exploding shells apply to a very wide variety of weapons. That includes gyrojet weapons (like Bolters), standard ballistic weapons (like modern assault rifles), certain railweapons, even grenades and missiles (if you stretch the definition a little). Explosive ammunition isn't something that will just go away, it is highly effective for both killing and terrifying the foe.
I could go on and on. Point to any piece of imperial tech, excluding those requiring psychic power, and the Tau equivalent will be superior.
Really? How about Plasma Weaponry? How about Void Shields? How about Titans? How about the Rosarius? How about Power Swords? How about Magma Warheads? How about the Life-eater biological weapon? How about Cyclonic Torpedoes?
P.S. Directed at whomever was saying Tau have silly plot armor: I always laugh out loud when an imperial fan accuses the Tau of having annoying plot armor. The Imperium has the worst plot armor in the entire mythos.
I always find the best way to describe tau is higher average tech, lower maximum tech.
The imperium has (or has had) things far superior to everything to tau have. The question remains, how valuable/hard to produce/rare is it. What tau have over the imperium is that there tech is generally cheaper (to their sort of equivalent, i.e. pulse cheaper than bolt, not las) , safer (plasma tech is a great example, they purposely under-powered their plasma tech to stop if from overheating like imperial ones do, hence the slight power decrease), and more readily available than imperial equivalents.
Although, on the battlesuit front, that's because they are battlesuits, not armor. Fio'tak is described as lighter than ceramitite (I think that's how you spell it) for the same protections. If you want an example of armor, look at XV15 stealth armor (or the later XV25/22). It's about the same as PA in terms of protection and volume.
And on the virus front, read the FE supplement, they genetically engineered a virus that destroyed an entire splinter fleet within hours. And I wouldn't posit power swords as a mark of imperial technological dominance. They're good, but it's just a energy field around a blade. Nothing too fancy. The tau just don't to CC, so they don't have them (althogh there's on etheral weapon that's similar)
Co'tor Shas wrote: I always find the best way to describe tau is higher average tech, lower maximum tech.
The imperium has (or has had) things far superior to everything to tau have. The question remains, how valuable/hard to produce/rare is it. What tau have over the imperium is that there tech is generally cheaper (to their sort of equivalent, i.e. pulse cheaper than bolt, not las) , safer (plasma tech is a great example, they purposely under-powered their plasma tech to stop if from overheating like imperial ones do, hence the slight power decrease), and more readily available than imperial equivalents.
Although, on the battlesuit front, that's because they are battlesuits, not armor. Fio'tak is described as lighter than ceramitite (I think that's how you spell it) for the same protections. If you want an example of armor, look at XV15 stealth armor (or the later XV25/22). It's about the same as PA in terms of protection and volume.
And on the virus front, read the FE supplement, they genetically engineered a virus that destroyed an entire splinter fleet within hours. And I wouldn't posit power swords as a mark of imperial technological dominance. They're good, but it's just a energy field around a blade. Nothing too fancy. The tau just don't to CC, so they don't have them (althogh there's on etheral weapon that's similar)
Agreed with this. On the troop level they have higher tech compared to the imperium, and even if they had better tech in the past. that means they do not have the tech level now. The only better tech stuff that I can think of that they have now are titans and grav weapons, which is hinted very much that the tau are quickly overtaking.
And nobody knows about the virus because not many people read about the farsight fluff. Oh and why would you want a power sword when you can get fusion blades, which are way better and an available tech since arkunasha. Their widespread plasma proves the tau's technological level where they are as refined as they are practical as well.
Grey Templar wrote: Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Not really, because having 10,000 soldiers just means you have 10,000 corpses when the enemy deploys drops a tactical nuke on your horde of meatshields. Human wave attacks only work when the enemy is as primitive as most of the Imperium. Against Tau/Eldar/Necrons they only "work" because the Imperium has plot armor.
There's a great little topic at the News and Rumours section about Warzone Damocles: Mont'ka. It's confirmed to be released in two weeks, and is going to include formation from the Imperial Guard and the Tau Empire from what I've seen so far. Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything... but at least the guard finally get someone with new formations.
So you men and women should go check it out. It's so gone severely off topic at some point but has a lot of interesting news if you are interested in the Warzone Damocles.
Grey Templar wrote: All of those things exist in the Imperium, in superior forms. The Imperium doesn't equip all their soldiers to that level though because 1) its way too expensive and 2) its unnecessary.
Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Pretty much. A good example of this is in Fallout (I think it's a prudent comparison given the recent release of FO4), where the NCR goes against the Brotherhood of Steel. Initially, the BoS kick serious arse given their superior tech and training, but cannot handle the superior numbers and infrastructure of the NCR that allows them sustain losses at a rate that eventually wears down the BoS. The BoS are then largely forced into hiding (at least in their holdings of the Mojave and California) since they can't handle any further direct confrontations.
The Imperium is like the NCR in this sense, except x1000000000 of course.
Did that conflict not happen around the New Vegas time line? I remember in the solar power plant in the Mojave, and NCR lady tells you that something super similar to that happens.
Also, Fio'tak. Is that the material used for battle suits or fire warrior armour? Cause if it's for the battle suits, then power armour it technically more sturdy and powerful. It's usually the crisis' shield generators that protect them from any harm. If that's the material used to make fire warrior combat armour, then I do remember reading somewhere that carapace armour is able to withstand more damage that fire warrior armour. Although it is heavier, but any soldier who uses it (Tempestuous Scions?) Perform the bulk of their training IN their armour, so it's like second skin to them. The fact that carapace is moulded to fit perfectly for each individual soldier also adds to prove that Imperial warriors in Carapace Armour are not bothered by the weight as they are so used to it.
IT'S like when you're a boxer. The boxing gloves are heavy as feth! But as you get used to fighting with them it starts to feel as if they are part of your you, or at least you are so used to wearing them that the weight no longer bothers you.
A Tempestuous Scion, if he ever had to perform in battle without his armour, would move freely like the wind!
The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything..
FFS no rules again ! What the FF are they playing at - still if the fluff is as good as last time for the Sororitas at least thats something!
Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything..
FFS no rules again ! What the FF are they playing at - still if the fluff is as good as last time for the Sororitas at least thats something!
Imperial guard formations have been confirmed! And if you look it up on Google, Warzone Mont'ka, you'll find a bunch of results on it.
So far for the guard, we're also getting g a kit for a tank commander and an updated enginseer. It's basically a leman russ with an Aquila on it and it comes with a techpriest. If the tank can be built as a demolished then I am in so much luck as I need a demolisher and a techpriest, so that's quite awesome. Unless the LR doesn't create the siege variants, then it's the perfect kit for me )))
Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything..
FFS no rules again ! What the FF are they playing at - still if the fluff is as good as last time for the Sororitas at least thats something!
Imperial guard formations have been confirmed! And if you look it up on Google, Warzone Mont'ka, you'll find a bunch of results on it.
So far for the guard, we're also getting g a kit for a tank commander and an updated enginseer. It's basically a leman russ with an Aquila on it and it comes with a techpriest. If the tank can be built as a demolished then I am in so much luck as I need a demolisher and a techpriest, so that's quite awesome. Unless the LR doesn't create the siege variants, then it's the perfect kit for me )))
Err ok thanks - wasn't the Guard I was actually hoping for Although still very tempted by the Blood Angels model
Chaos, I'm willing to bet in Mont'ka that the tau are expirmenting with the imperiums warp tech ignoring the safety precautions the imperium does and they open a warpgate/miniature eye of terror in the gulf. THen Chaos comes flooding through and chaos are the ones who take the gulf.
that'll humble the tau, to mess with tech they dont understand
that'll enrage the imperium and send the grey knights to deal with and shut the warpgate, and probably run into farsight and help each other shut the gate. in book 3.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
The thing that people always forget when arguing Tau Battlesuits is that with the exception of the reinforced Broadsides, the 'legs' on a battlesuit are little more than landing gear for between deployments.
You would be right if you were talking about Coldstars but normal battle suits are basically jump infantry. They do walk and run through the battlefield and cannot fly.
No, Crisis Suits are jet pack infantry. They glide across the battlefield just off the ground, but are not capable of the kinds of speeds required to be a jetbike and lack the operational ceiling to be a flier.
It's obvious in the rules and on the models. Jetpack takes up about 40% of the thing's mass.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Tau have, in their own codex, been described as short, with no depth perception due to a lack of contracting irises (yes, I know), and a culture that abhors close combat, meaning that they only train for endurance and not power.
There's a good chance that a Tau would have an easier time of running a marathon than a human, especially in desert terrain, because they're a desert-adapted animal - which means good water retention, low food requirements and good balance - but in a sprint or arm-wrestling, the human has reach and size advantages.
Obviously this only really applies to Earth and Fire Tau, since the Water caste are designed for looks, not ability, and the air caste are very fragile due to low-G upbringings and hollow bones. They could well have a wicked right hook though, if they retain the advanced pectoral muscles required for gliding despite having lost their wing-flaps.
Of course, that's completely ignoring the fact that 'tall and spindly' is a really bad design for fighter pilots, who want to be small enough to fit comfortably in a cockpit, and solid enough to cope with high-g maneuvers, but the entire Tau race is badly designed and thought out on the part of GW in that way.
... and depth perception does not come from contracting irises. Grr.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Tau have, in their own codex, been described as short, with no depth perception due to a lack of contracting irises (yes, I know), and a culture that abhors close combat, meaning that they only train for endurance and not power.
There's a good chance that a Tau would have an easier time of running a marathon than a human, especially in desert terrain, because they're a desert-adapted animal - which means good water retention, low food requirements and good balance - but in a sprint or arm-wrestling, the human has reach and size advantages.
Obviously this only really applies to Earth and Fire Tau, since the Water caste are designed for looks, not ability, and the air caste are very fragile due to low-G upbringings and hollow bones. They could well have a wicked right hook though, if they retain the advanced pectoral muscles required for gliding despite having lost their wing-flaps.
Of course, that's completely ignoring the fact that 'tall and spindly' is a really bad design for fighter pilots, who want to be small enough to fit comfortably in a cockpit, and solid enough to cope with high-g maneuvers, but the entire Tau race is badly designed and thought out on the part of GW in that way.
... and depth perception does not come from contracting irises. Grr.
I believe it says the Tau home planet has slightly lower gravity than Earth and therefore the Tau are a little more slight. Firewarriors being the most athletic and heavily muscled of the 5 Castes. I picture the Tau/Human difference as that of a teenager who exercises vs. a grown man who exercises.
This entire point is not well thought out since gravity varies from planet to planet. ALL Imperial planets are higher gravity than ALL Tau planets?
As for eyesight, it states plainly that Tau vision is superior to a human's. They can see further, their focus is sharper, and they can see a broader spectrum of colors. I imagine some of the targeting lasers they employ are invisible to humans.
But with a broader spectrum comes a split second of extra adjusting their eyes have to make. This is never described as being a hindrance to combat performance. (Tau haters make up crap like that all the time.) They simply don't train in melee.
... and depth perception does not come from contracting irises. Grr.
Maybe GW should have made Tau cyclopean. It would make them look more alien while actually making sense why they would lack depth perception.
As I recall it wasn't a depth perception problem, it was that they cannot change the focus in the eyes quickly(which contracting irises would cause). Making their ability to switch from far off targets to close targets very poor. IE: If Mr Fire Warrior is looking at the far off enemy encampment but then suddenly he sees a blurr close and off to the right. He's gonna take a few seconds to adjust to the closer object, in which time he and his squad has been eviscerated by Raven Guard.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
I am pretty sure the previous Tau codex went into depth about that Tau are physically weaker than humans. Not enough to make them Str2 instead of Str3 because the rules aren't granular enough.
For what its worth, in the FFGRPGs Tau are weaker than humans.
A Tau Fire Warrior has a Strength value of 30. A chaos Guardsmen has a Strength value of 35. A random human civilian is Strength 30.
So a Tau Fire Warrior, who has had training and conditioning, has the same strength as a random human civilian. And a human who has had training and conditioning is 15% stronger.
A Space Marine is Strength 65. So the difference between 30 and 65 is only one point on the 40k stat scale. Tau would have to be significantly weaker to have a difference in 40k.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that? And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
Those stated that they were physilogicaly worse at CC than humans (which I agree with), not weaker, unless I missed something?
Edit: basically, I want a source. They probably are weaker than humans (as they are shorter), but I just want to know if this is one of these accepted fanon things, or a written canon things. I'm weird like that.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
Those stated that they were physilogicaly worse at CC than humans (which I agree with), not weaker, unless I missed something?
Edit: basically, I want a source. They probably are weaker than humans (as they are shorter), but I just want to know if this is one of these accepted fanon things, or a written canon things. I'm weird like that.
The literally just cited the Codex as saying that the Tau are physically weaker, though they have better endurance.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that? And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
Those stated that they were physilogicaly worse at CC than humans (which I agree with), not weaker, unless I missed something?
Edit: basically, I want a source. They probably are weaker than humans (as they are shorter), but I just want to know if this is one of these accepted fanon things, or a written canon things. I'm weird like that.
The literally just cited the Codex as saying that the Tau are physically weaker, though they have better endurance.
No, she said they train for endurance, not power. There's a difference between "is stronger because of training" and "is stronger because of physiological differences. And then some entirely reasonable reasons why they may be physically weaker (which I think make sense), but again, not stated canon. After I stated that, GT mentioned the 4th edition codex (assuming that's what he meant by, and I said I don't remember anything like that and will go check. I haven't yet because I can't, for the life of me, remember where I put it. Although I may have scans of it on my computer somewhere.
Edit: also, keep in mind, I only looked at their posts after I posted the reply, and then only briefly.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Actually the treading isn't the problem. Its riveted armor which means most imperial tanks would have less protection than a WWII tank. Either way, I am more forgiving to the Imperium which art style stays uniform with the setting than Tau which is a failed attempt to fuse Gundam based anime with a western art theme that in no way jives.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
They constantly fall back. Kauyon is a style of warfare where the enemy lures his opponent with faked retreats, unit baiting (that works in squad based engagements but Cadres and companies are too big), and faking a weakness in their battle lines. The issue is Kauyon isn't just unrealistic but idiotic as is Mont'ka. To put it to you bluntly the Tau style of warfare is so dumb that you have to be either a person that likes blatant fanfiction or you really dislike the idea of at least maintaining some sort of accurate military engagement. In Kauyon, Sternshield's major style of warfare was to engage and then withdraw forces hoping to lure his foe into a trap. His men were skilled at faking being overwhelmed and would retreat in a way that made his foes believe they had the upper hand. Problem with that is it doesn't work. When you fall back all you are doing is giving ground to enemy forces who are going to seize the territory and take better positions to shoot your forces. There is a reason that the US Army will only retreat at max twice in an engagement. Now you can withdraw to more defensible positions but a withdraw has to be thought out, and should never be done in some dumb idea to lure your enemy into a trap because guess what happens if your opponent walks into that trap and wins. You can ask the Republican Guard that question. Imperial Warfare is basically WWII tactics while the space marines tend to fight like US Marines while Tau is made up garbage. Tit for tat style engagement "aka holding stuff back to counter attack with" doesn't exist. Bait and Lure tactics do not work in any type of warfare save medieval warfare. I have never been in a meeting where we sat talking about sending in a unit, having it engage, and then bringing in another unit when the enemy commits. I have been involved in a Pincer attack where my company engaged the Republican Guard head on while two other companies slammed into their flanks.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
Where is the Imperium so bogged down? The Imperium is an empire of over a million worlds and in the fluff is gaining more territory than it is losing. The biggest event was the Thousand world wars which in an empire of over a million worlds is a drop in the bucket. From Kauyon the Tau only survived not because the Imperium couldn't devote resources but because the Imperium forgot about them. Also where does it say that the fire warrior is trained better than your average Guardsmen? Cadians are raised from birth to be soldiers. By 5 a child can field strip a gun and by their mid teens will see combat in white shield units. There is nothing that denotes the Tau fire Warriors are better than a Guardsmen, they are better armed but hey if your argument is better tech means you win than we all should be speaking german right now. Also do not cop an attitude because your faction fights unrealistically and you are unable to articulate an intelligent response. Either make a viable comment or be quiet. Falling back is unrealistic and if you are going to write fluff about a war keep to the basics.. if the writers do not know the basics of war than they should not be writing fluff about war.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Again, if you are going to write about warfare than your writers should know how warfare works. So your argument holds no water as the past writers did atleast try to keep the tactics and strats on a WWII level. Once the Tau were released it became Anime in a western fiction. Also, 40k has been incredibly realistic when it comes to space combat where commanders have to plan their attacks based on firing solutions minutes in advance. You are making a straw man argument which if you want your faction to be the most poorly written of the bunch that is fine with me.
Also since you seem to lack knowledge about your own faction let me educate you on the tau basics.
" Physical strength and size varies between the Tau castes with the Fire Caste being the strongest of their kind, roughly the size and slightly weaker than an average baseline human because the Tau homeworld has gravity slightly weaker than that of Terra."
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Actually the treading isn't the problem. Its riveted armor which means most imperial tanks would have less protection than a WWII tank. Either way, I am more forgiving to the Imperium which art style stays uniform with the setting than Tau which is a failed attempt to fuse Gundam based anime with a western art theme that in no way jives.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
They constantly fall back. Kauyon is a style of warfare where the enemy lures his opponent with faked retreats, unit baiting (that works in squad based engagements but Cadres and companies are too big), and faking a weakness in their battle lines. The issue is Kauyon isn't just unrealistic but idiotic as is Mont'ka. To put it to you bluntly the Tau style of warfare is so dumb that you have to be either a person that likes blatant fanfiction or you really dislike the idea of at least maintaining some sort of accurate military engagement. In Kauyon, Sternshield's major style of warfare was to engage and then withdraw forces hoping to lure his foe into a trap. His men were skilled at faking being overwhelmed and would retreat in a way that made his foes believe they had the upper hand. Problem with that is it doesn't work. When you fall back all you are doing is giving ground to enemy forces who are going to seize the territory and take better positions to shoot your forces. There is a reason that the US Army will only retreat at max twice in an engagement. Now you can withdraw to more defensible positions but a withdraw has to be thought out, and should never be done in some dumb idea to lure your enemy into a trap because guess what happens if your opponent walks into that trap and wins. You can ask the Republican Guard that question. Imperial Warfare is basically WWII tactics while the space marines tend to fight like US Marines while Tau is made up garbage. Tit for tat style engagement "aka holding stuff back to counter attack with" doesn't exist. Bait and Lure tactics do not work in any type of warfare save medieval warfare. I have never been in a meeting where we sat talking about sending in a unit, having it engage, and then bringing in another unit when the enemy commits. I have been involved in a Pincer attack where my company engaged the Republican Guard head on while two other companies slammed into their flanks.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
Where is the Imperium so bogged down? The Imperium is an empire of over a million worlds and in the fluff is gaining more territory than it is losing. The biggest event was the Thousand world wars which in an empire of over a million worlds is a drop in the bucket. From Kauyon the Tau only survived not because the Imperium couldn't devote resources but because the Imperium forgot about them. Also where does it say that the fire warrior is trained better than your average Guardsmen? Cadians are raised from birth to be soldiers. By 5 a child can field strip a gun and by their mid teens will see combat in white shield units. There is nothing that denotes the Tau fire Warriors are better than a Guardsmen, they are better armed but hey if your argument is better tech means you win than we all should be speaking german right now. Also do not cop an attitude because your faction fights unrealistically and you are unable to articulate an intelligent response. Either make a viable comment or be quiet. Falling back is unrealistic and if you are going to write fluff about a war keep to the basics.. if the writers do not know the basics of war than they should not be writing fluff about war.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Again, if you are going to write about warfare than your writers should know how warfare works. So your argument holds no water as the past writers did atleast try to keep the tactics and strats on a WWII level. Once the Tau were released it became Anime in a western fiction. Also, 40k has been incredibly realistic when it comes to space combat where commanders have to plan their attacks based on firing solutions minutes in advance. You are making a straw man argument which if you want your faction to be the most poorly written of the bunch that is fine with me.
Also since you seem to lack knowledge about your own faction let me educate you on the tau basics.
" Physical strength and size varies between the Tau castes with the Fire Caste being the strongest of their kind, roughly the size and slightly weaker than an average baseline human because the Tau homeworld has gravity slightly weaker than that of Terra."
Actually, the tau acknowledges the fact that they cannot be always losing ground thus, the tidewall and stormsurge are created. The tidewall moved, leaving the attackers unable to capture anything and using the tidewall to launch a counter attack as well. And also the stormsurge are created just because the tau knows sometimes they have to stay their ground. The previous way they fought was because they were hunters, and like you said, its pretty medieval/primitive. So after fighting the imperium they decided to create new tech and change their way of warfare to reflect the killing blow and patient hunter.
And the imperium is bogged down in the previous fluff, that is why they have to retract their troops fighting over damocles to fight the nids threat, but their priorities are so great that just because a chapter master is killed they decided to send alot more troops to fight the tau.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Actually the treading isn't the problem. Its riveted armor which means most imperial tanks would have less protection than a WWII tank. Either way, I am more forgiving to the Imperium which art style stays uniform with the setting than Tau which is a failed attempt to fuse Gundam based anime with a western art theme that in no way jives.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
They constantly fall back. Kauyon is a style of warfare where the enemy lures his opponent with faked retreats, unit baiting (that works in squad based engagements but Cadres and companies are too big), and faking a weakness in their battle lines. The issue is Kauyon isn't just unrealistic but idiotic as is Mont'ka. To put it to you bluntly the Tau style of warfare is so dumb that you have to be either a person that likes blatant fanfiction or you really dislike the idea of at least maintaining some sort of accurate military engagement. In Kauyon, Sternshield's major style of warfare was to engage and then withdraw forces hoping to lure his foe into a trap. His men were skilled at faking being overwhelmed and would retreat in a way that made his foes believe they had the upper hand. Problem with that is it doesn't work. When you fall back all you are doing is giving ground to enemy forces who are going to seize the territory and take better positions to shoot your forces. There is a reason that the US Army will only retreat at max twice in an engagement. Now you can withdraw to more defensible positions but a withdraw has to be thought out, and should never be done in some dumb idea to lure your enemy into a trap because guess what happens if your opponent walks into that trap and wins. You can ask the Republican Guard that question. Imperial Warfare is basically WWII tactics while the space marines tend to fight like US Marines while Tau is made up garbage. Tit for tat style engagement "aka holding stuff back to counter attack with" doesn't exist. Bait and Lure tactics do not work in any type of warfare save medieval warfare. I have never been in a meeting where we sat talking about sending in a unit, having it engage, and then bringing in another unit when the enemy commits. I have been involved in a Pincer attack where my company engaged the Republican Guard head on while two other companies slammed into their flanks.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
Where is the Imperium so bogged down? The Imperium is an empire of over a million worlds and in the fluff is gaining more territory than it is losing. The biggest event was the Thousand world wars which in an empire of over a million worlds is a drop in the bucket. From Kauyon the Tau only survived not because the Imperium couldn't devote resources but because the Imperium forgot about them. Also where does it say that the fire warrior is trained better than your average Guardsmen? Cadians are raised from birth to be soldiers. By 5 a child can field strip a gun and by their mid teens will see combat in white shield units. There is nothing that denotes the Tau fire Warriors are better than a Guardsmen, they are better armed but hey if your argument is better tech means you win than we all should be speaking german right now. Also do not cop an attitude because your faction fights unrealistically and you are unable to articulate an intelligent response. Either make a viable comment or be quiet. Falling back is unrealistic and if you are going to write fluff about a war keep to the basics.. if the writers do not know the basics of war than they should not be writing fluff about war.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Again, if you are going to write about warfare than your writers should know how warfare works. So your argument holds no water as the past writers did atleast try to keep the tactics and strats on a WWII level. Once the Tau were released it became Anime in a western fiction. Also, 40k has been incredibly realistic when it comes to space combat where commanders have to plan their attacks based on firing solutions minutes in advance. You are making a straw man argument which if you want your faction to be the most poorly written of the bunch that is fine with me.
Also since you seem to lack knowledge about your own faction let me educate you on the tau basics.
" Physical strength and size varies between the Tau castes with the Fire Caste being the strongest of their kind, roughly the size and slightly weaker than an average baseline human because the Tau homeworld has gravity slightly weaker than that of Terra."
Actually, the tau acknowledges the fact that they cannot be always losing ground thus, the tidewall and stormsurge are created. The tidewall moved, leaving the attackers unable to capture anything and using the tidewall to launch a counter attack as well. And also the stormsurge are created just because the tau knows sometimes they have to stay their ground. The previous way they fought was because they were hunters, and like you said, its pretty medieval/primitive. So after fighting the imperium they decided to create new tech and change their way of warfare to reflect the killing blow and patient hunter.
And the imperium is bogged down in the previous fluff, that is why they have to retract their troops fighting over damocles to fight the nids threat, but their priorities are so great that just because a chapter master is killed they decided to send alot more troops to fight the tau.
The Tidal Wall was created in reaction to the crushing defeat they suffered on Voltaris. It is laughable, depending on its speed the best thing to do would be to move around them but the problem with Kauyon was that the Tau suffered no Orbital bombardment. I mean its hard to read Kauyon and then read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade where the Imperial fleets were bombarding enemy positions to ash. Also, no the imperium rated the Tau as a low threat and hence they prioritized other battles such as the Tyranids. You have to understand that 18 regiments, a demi legio, and some space marine chapters slammed through the Tau empire only to hear about the major threat of the Tyranids... after that it states the Imperium literally forgot. Now the war between the Tau and the Imperium is on not just for killing a chapter master but because they were broadcasting their victories and word reached Terra.. pg 73 of Kauyon.
I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why, of course; you can't let such a morale-devastating action go unpunished (the Angels of Death are literally worshiped, after all).
So I guess we've figured the reason why humans are better cqb fighters :
Humans have a larger muscles mass, have stronger bone density, and just have faster reflexes/ hand eye coordination. Right?
Well anyways, I predicted ssomewhere I'm this thread that the next book would finally feature the IG as the saviors of the Imperium, not the other way around. Most narratives have the IG in the first book, then have space marines save the day In the second. I'm just glad warzone damocles doesn't follow that trend. Now I'm just hoping to have the Militarium Tempestus play a vital role in Mont'ka.
Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
123ply wrote: So I guess we've figured the reason why humans are better cqb fighters :
Humans have a larger muscles mass, have stronger bone density, and just have faster reflexes/ hand eye coordination. Right?
Well anyways, I predicted ssomewhere I'm this thread that the next book would finally feature the IG as the saviors of the Imperium, not the other way around. Most narratives have the IG in the first book, then have space marines save the day In the second. I'm just glad warzone damocles doesn't follow that trend. Now I'm just hoping to have the Militarium Tempestus play a vital role in Mont'ka.
Even Kauyon book had the imperium hold the fort as the space marines retreated
To be honest, I feel space marine takes up too much credit away from the imperial guard. And when space marines do stupid things, its out of necessity, or they are "badass" enough to do it, but when other races like tau and imperium do a tactic or strategy they were trained for people think its stupid.
Hopefully mont'ka is going to be turning this around with farsight destroying the marines due to the fact that he knows that they transfer their gene seed from the dead, and thus making the humbler, more reliable IG to make things right.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
Oh it's a source, but nobody has really given it. Which codex? And a page number or even section? Even better, just quote it. I'm not denying that it can't be the case, I'd just like to see it.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
Oh it's a source, but nobody has really given it. Which codex? And a page number or even section? Even better, just quote it. I'm not denying that it can't be the case, I'd just like to see it.
wELL, it sure as hell ain't the Tau Codex, you know, the source of Tau fluff.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
Oh it's a source, but nobody has really given it. Which codex? And a page number or even section? Even better, just quote it. I'm not denying that it can't be the case, I'd just like to see it.
wELL, it sure as hell ain't the Tau Codex, you know, the source of Tau fluff.
I know, that's what I was asking for, which tau codex. We have 4 of them.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
Adrik wrote: How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar?
Essentially, because the Tau move their armies with Mantas and Orcas which move many times the speed of sound. Considering Shadowsuns force was stated to have possessed 47 mantas ! and 20 orcas they could redeploy to other side of the planet in almost no time at all if they needed to. Once Tau have their boots on the ground they are slower than eldar for sure, but once they mount up in their mantas and orcas in terms of raw speed they have them beat.
As a side note, the supplement mentioned the Tau had 47 mantas, and yet we never hear about them making an appearance in even a single battle... You think they would be pretty damned significant in the war considering they are basically titan level strong (if titan's could move at mach 5 speeds). Maybe the manta crews had a drinking contest with the crews of the imperial navy and they all passed out and got really hungover which is why neither did anything for the duration of the supplement. Though it's probably just bad writing...
Adrik wrote: How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar?
Essentially, because the Tau move their armies with Mantas and Orcas which move many times the speed of sound. Considering Shadowsuns force was stated to have possessed 47 mantas ! and 20 orcas they could redeploy to other side of the planet in almost no time at all if they needed to. Once Tau have their boots on the ground they are slower than eldar for sure, but once they mount up in their mantas and orcas in terms of raw speed they have them beat.
As a side note, the supplement mentioned the Tau had 47 mantas, and yet we never hear about them making an appearance in even a single battle... You think they would be pretty damned significant in the war considering they are basically titan level strong (if titan's could move at mach 5 speeds). Maybe the manta crews had a drinking contest with the crews of the imperial navy and they all passed out and got really hungover which is why neither did anything for the duration of the supplement. Though it's probably just bad writing...
Yeah and the Imperium deployed entire Knight Households and full Imperial Guard Regiments in their own heavy lifters in exactly the same way and to the apparent supprise of the Tau. They dropped at least one superheav lifter in to evacuate the Knights - burning may Tau suits with their engines...............
Mantas are not just the Tau transport / defence against Titans but also a major part of their Navy's void defence - they would have been sorely needed to guard their warships on their runs into the area as they were apparently terrified of the Imperial Navy (who as you say did nothing - not even provide air cover) so its likely that both the Manta's and the Imperial Navy pilots were dueling or on void patrols against each other.
Dark Eldar and Eldar vehicles are as quick or quicker than Manta's - all of their vehicles! Plus the Eldar have their own Superheavy Air/Void Craft to counter the Mantas - and Orcas are not designed to actually fight.
Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yep near total - the book specifically says the Tau naval forces would not enegage the Imperail fleet who are described as a "terror to fight". They had to make fast attack runs into the area to try and drop in supplies and reinforcements....
Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting.
Because thats what happened - Shadowsun designed the entire planetry conflict as a trap - something that the Astartes only saw too late - she thought much bigger than their usual enemies and played on in particular the White Scars desire for vengeance - Shrike says so himself and indeed he grudgingly admires her for it. However the Tau still do not understand the scale of their enemy - they think that the Raven Guard Chapter Master is the king of the Space Marines and that his death will throw the Imperium into confusion
Yeah and the Imperium deployed entire Knight Households and full Imperial Guard Regiments in their own heavy lifters in exactly the same way and to the apparent supprise of the Tau. They dropped at least one superheav lifter in to evacuate the Knights - burning may Tau suits with their engines...............
Yes, at least they make an appearance, not the manta's though.
Mantas are not just the Tau transport / defence against Titans but also a major part of their Navy's void defence - they would have been sorely needed to guard their warships on their runs into the area as they were apparently terrified of the Imperial Navy (who as you say did nothing - not even provide air cover) so its likely that both the Manta's and the Imperial Navy pilots were dueling or on void patrols against each other.
The tau are also stated to have deployed 4 custodian class carriers, 11 protector class warships, 4 emissary envoy ships, 14 kroot warspheres, and 11 nicassar/demiurg warships. Which is a fairly sizable navy already which many of the tau ships would already posses their own complement of manta's specifically for this purpose.
Dark Eldar and Eldar vehicles are as quick or quicker than Manta's - all of their vehicles!
Their flyers are faster than mantas, but not their tanks and raiders (fast though they are), not by a long margin.
If the Mantas had been used in the planetary battle -it woudl have taken away from the Big new suits that GW are selling
That's not actually many Tau warships compared to allied vessels and it is very interesting to note the Nicassar - they are normally kept away............. I'll have to check if it says the Mantas are the complement of the warships or extra, the former seems likely.
Mr Morden wrote: If the Mantas had been used in the planetary battle -it woudl have taken away from the Big new suits that GW are selling
That's what I assumed.
That's not actually many Tau warships compared to allied vessels
Going over the Kauyon book, I can't see any listing of the imperial naval assets. But I assume this has to be the case.
and it is very interesting to note the Nicassar - they are normally kept away.............
Yeah you think the imperial psykers would have felt the presence of a race of psykers so strong that their ships don't have engines and weapons, instead relying on their immense warp powers for mobility and offense. Another ball dropped by the writers.
I'll have to check if it says the Mantas are the complement of the warships or extra, the former seems likely.
It doesn't actually say, but I assume it's the latter. You see have you ever wondered why in the fluff a few mantas can threaten and even destroy an imperial escort class vessel and yet somehow struggle with larger titans? The answer is that the mantas used as void interceptors are actually different than the planetary transports. Often colloquially referred to as devilrays, they are larger and have their transport capacity removed in place of larger power sources to power stronger weapons and superior shielding. So I doubt the 47 listed as drop ships are meant to be the ones used as void interceptors... Unless just more inconsistent bad GW writing, which is entirely possible.
Sorry by Allied I meant non Tau, but Tau Empire Void assests - quite a armada compared to the actual Tau warships
I had not read that there was a different version of the Manta for void space action? is that recent as don't recal it from BFG?
re the Imperial Fleet size - zero mention apart from that its too big and powerful to risk the Tau void ships in direct confrontation especially suince they are the transport asests for the whole Dovar system and beyond
But then again although there are eight Astartes Chapters only two are named and apparently do anything Same with the Guard really.
I had not read that there was a different version of the Manta for void space action? is that recent as don't recal it from BFG?
I used to play BFG religiously, haven't for awhile though. I believe if I'm not mistaken when FW released the Kor'Or'Vesh (the newer dedicated Tau void navy) rules it was touched on that sometime after the damocles crusade, the tau began to specialize their mantas to be more suited for their specific uses.
re the Imperial Fleet size - zero mention apart from that its too big and powerful to risk the Tau void ships in direct confrontation especially suince they are the transport asests for the whole Dovar system and beyond
But then again although there are eight Astartes Chapters only two are named and apparently do anything Same with the Guard really.
Yeah so far I have been disappointed with each and every campaign supplement. They have all been rather sloppy, inconsistent and sometimes completely nonsensical. Of course this is GW and I suppose I shouldn't expect Dostoyevsky level writing.
I like the format an awful lot - seperate fluff and rules - great.
Lots of really good artwork - although Shield of Baal was better - There are a couple of not so great ones this time.
The choice of what to give rules or focuss is patchy and not good.
They are trying to do the Forge World campaign books but even though its about the same price its not as good IMO.
I love stuf fin the fluff like the compostiion of the various forces - even down to the Water Caste stuff but they don't do enough of it or do both sides :(.
I'll have a look at the Taros campaign and see what it says about Mantas
@Bleak I love how your primary defense is that he's a dumb fanboy who is grasping at straws for his entire defense and he's soo stoopid and such a fething scrub and such a bludy fenboi. Now, onto the good part! The red is my rebuff of much of what you said.
bleak wrote:
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yes, it has been explicitly pointed out repeatedly that the Imperium were a "terror to fight", and that the Tau weren't willing to engage them in open combat. Therefore, the Imperium had Void Superiority.
Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength.
Yes, in several posts that were prior to yours. Maybe you should bother reading the thread - or, better yet, the fluff.
And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond?
If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Again with the petty insults . This isn't the place for them. Why not include firewarrior in this discussion? What, you mean besides the fact that it contradicts innumerable other fluff sources? You mean besides the fact that it is a video game designed to make a lowly grunt into a mighty hero? You mean besides the fact that it had to be tailored to actually be fun (which is virtually impossible to do if you make it strictly fluff-faithful)?
Why bring in other races? Because those races are faster and stronger than the Tau, yet the Space Marines defeated them. The Dark Eldar use tech so advanced the Tau couldn't even concieve of it (not to mention the fact that it's Warp-based, but that's another story altogether). The Dark Eldar have 63,000,000+ years' worth of technological development going into their vehicles. You really think that the one faction that is infamous for being the fastest faction in the Galaxy is going to somehow be slower than these backwater savages? You honestly think that the Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat, could not do the same to the Tau? This comparison is relevant because it points out the inconsistencies of this campaign; it points out how this story contradicts boatloads of other fluff.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Yes modern warfare does have mobile bases. But, of course, these are logical bases with the ability to defend themselves from a ground assault. Not flying islands that could be easily brought down with a few hundred Melta Charges to the belly. Humans can cast Psychic powers because they make sense. They explain all sorts of paranormal phenomena. The Psychic powers are an integral and consistent portion of the Setting, that have been explained to death. You can't compare something like that - with nothing that would make it not make sense in the real world - to something that has blatant weaknesses that are conveniently ignored by the authors.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
SMH Again with the petty insults. Actually, that just points out how the Tau continue to develop technology, while the Imperium is still reliant upon the same gak they had 15k years ago (the approx. time of the Fall of Old Night). Also, you are pointing out issues that have nothing to do with this conversation. The portrayment of the UltraSues has little to do with the portrayment of the Tau. Not only have the Smurfs never been in any major engagements with the Tau, they are also the one faction that has more plot armour than any other faction in the game. The Smurfs have nothing to do with this; you might as well bring in the fact that bacon is the ultimate sandwhich topping while you're at it.
dusara217 wrote: If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
Yes, of course the Imperium missed the opportunity to end the war with an orbital bombardment. This is almost universal in scifi in general, and happens over and over again in 40k. A story consisting of "the space battleship entered orbit and then killed everything on the planet, the end" is not very interesting so the authors conveniently forget about the battleships in orbit and/or make their guns barely more effective than an artillery barrage. Don't act like this is something unique to one war against the Tau.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
Just like space marine tactics are idiotic, IG tactics are idiotic, ork tactics are idiotic, etc. Don't act like Tau are exceptional in this.
dusara217 wrote: If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
Yes, of course the Imperium missed the opportunity to end the war with an orbital bombardment. This is almost universal in scifi in general, and happens over and over again in 40k. A story consisting of "the space battleship entered orbit and then killed everything on the planet, the end" is not very interesting so the authors conveniently forget about the battleships in orbit and/or make their guns barely more effective than an artillery barrage. Don't act like this is something unique to one war against the Tau.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
Just like space marine tactics are idiotic, IG tactics are idiotic, ork tactics are idiotic, etc. Don't act like Tau are exceptional in this.
You're right, the Tau failures are hardly unique, but at least IG tactics and SM tactics are based in reality. The Space Marines, being akin to real-life marines, smash through the enemy forces with Bolters (you know, the weapon that more than 60% of every Chapter is required to use as a primary weapon during every engagement) and Heavy Weapons, while IG hold the line, maintain supply lines, etc. Tau tactics are basically just "feth logic, we can just dance around, ignore tactical objectives, and somehow still win." Yes, Space Marines indulge in close combat, but they first jump hundreds of meters on jump packs; broaching huge distances quite quickly, and likely catching the enemy by surprise (if you're striking from ambush, like RG always do).
Also, there is a reason you don't just bomb every planet to hell. Most of the time, you want the planet to be remotely intact, not a radioactive, cratered wasteland. However, strategic bombing is something that is frequently found in 40k. From Chapter Masters calling down precision Orbital Strikes (see: Codex Space Marine) to Inquisitors calling down precision Orbital Lances (see: Codex Inquisition) to Space Marine Captains denying the enemy a valuable resource (see: Fallen Angels). The fact of the matter is, the authors of this narrative completely ignored the mountains of fluff that feature this, in favor of being idiots and writing a big, steamy pile of bad fluff.
dusara217 wrote: @Bleak I love how your primary defense is that he's a dumb fanboy who is grasping at straws for his entire defense and he's soo stoopid and such a fething scrub and such a bludy fenboi. Now, onto the good part! The red is my rebuff of much of what you said.
bleak wrote:
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yes, it has been explicitly pointed out repeatedly that the Imperium were a "terror to fight", and that the Tau weren't willing to engage them in open combat. Therefore, the Imperium had Void Superiority.
Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength.
Yes, in several posts that were prior to yours. Maybe you should bother reading the thread - or, better yet, the fluff.
And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond?
If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Again with the petty insults . This isn't the place for them. Why not include firewarrior in this discussion? What, you mean besides the fact that it contradicts innumerable other fluff sources? You mean besides the fact that it is a video game designed to make a lowly grunt into a mighty hero? You mean besides the fact that it had to be tailored to actually be fun (which is virtually impossible to do if you make it strictly fluff-faithful)?
Why bring in other races? Because those races are faster and stronger than the Tau, yet the Space Marines defeated them. The Dark Eldar use tech so advanced the Tau couldn't even concieve of it (not to mention the fact that it's Warp-based, but that's another story altogether). The Dark Eldar have 63,000,000+ years' worth of technological development going into their vehicles. You really think that the one faction that is infamous for being the fastest faction in the Galaxy is going to somehow be slower than these backwater savages? You honestly think that the Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat, could not do the same to the Tau? This comparison is relevant because it points out the inconsistencies of this campaign; it points out how this story contradicts boatloads of other fluff.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Yes modern warfare does have mobile bases. But, of course, these are logical bases with the ability to defend themselves from a ground assault. Not flying islands that could be easily brought down with a few hundred Melta Charges to the belly. Humans can cast Psychic powers because they make sense. They explain all sorts of paranormal phenomena. The Psychic powers are an integral and consistent portion of the Setting, that have been explained to death. You can't compare something like that - with nothing that would make it not make sense in the real world - to something that has blatant weaknesses that are conveniently ignored by the authors.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
SMH Again with the petty insults. Actually, that just points out how the Tau continue to develop technology, while the Imperium is still reliant upon the same gak they had 15k years ago (the approx. time of the Fall of Old Night). Also, you are pointing out issues that have nothing to do with this conversation. The portrayment of the UltraSues has little to do with the portrayment of the Tau. Not only have the Smurfs never been in any major engagements with the Tau, they are also the one faction that has more plot armour than any other faction in the game. The Smurfs have nothing to do with this; you might as well bring in the fact that bacon is the ultimate sandwhich topping while you're at it.
Ok, sure, imperium had space control, so why do they not bombard the land below? What I am insinuating is that there is a reason why the marines couldn't do it, and you answered it I guess?
Well it wasn't a petty insult, but more about asking the poster why he had so much rage towards the tau victory in the book? Perhaps you should read the post properly as well as replying to the rest of my post as well? I did question why space marines had been up played in the their fluff as well and why didn't you answer that?
HAHAHA wait, psychic powers make sense and floating fortresses don't. Well played and thank you for your reply.
dusara217 wrote: You're right, the Tau failures are hardly unique, but at least IG tactics and SM tactics are based in reality. The Space Marines, being akin to real-life marines, smash through the enemy forces with Bolters (you know, the weapon that more than 60% of every Chapter is required to use as a primary weapon during every engagement) and Heavy Weapons, while IG hold the line, maintain supply lines, etc.
Err, no. Marines would be out of ammunition long before they could accomplish anything, and often get credit for idiotic things like "a whole squad could capture a planet". And given their absurd costs to make and support combined with laughably small numbers they're a spectacular waste of effort by the Imperium. Meanwhile the IG have WWI technology, little concept of strategy beyond human wave attacks and having more bodies than the enemy, and no real hope of success other than the fact that the enemy is almost always equally incompetent.
Tau tactics are basically just "feth logic, we can just dance around, ignore tactical objectives, and somehow still win."
The Tau objective is killing the enemy. Territory is meaningless to the Tau because they can redeploy at will, fight wherever they want, and never worry about supply lines on the ground. Once the enemy is dead you can take any territory you want. You can't compare that kind of absurd strategic mobility with real-world tactics that depend on ground-based supply chains for support.
Also, there is a reason you don't just bomb every planet to hell. Most of the time, you want the planet to be remotely intact, not a radioactive, cratered wasteland.
You are aware that tactical nukes exist, right? You know, weapons that are perfectly capable of wiping out troops on the ground without causing any permanent damage to the planet. The only reason we don't see them is because "and then they nuked the incoming horde of orks and the planet was saved, the end" isn't the kind of story GW wants to tell in 40k.
However, strategic bombing is something that is frequently found in 40k. From Chapter Masters calling down precision Orbital Strikes (see: Codex Space Marine) to Inquisitors calling down precision Orbital Lances (see: Codex Inquisition) to Space Marine Captains denying the enemy a valuable resource (see: Fallen Angels). The fact of the matter is, the authors of this narrative completely ignored the mountains of fluff that feature this, in favor of being idiots and writing a big, steamy pile of bad fluff.
And, again, this happens all the time. GW wants to tell stories about heroic ground combat and so orbital bombardment is shoved into the background and always forgotten when it would get in the way of the story. Don't act like this is something special with the Tau because it happens just as often when the Tau should be the ones dropping a few nukes on stuff from orbit.
dusara217 wrote: You're right, the Tau failures are hardly unique, but at least IG tactics and SM tactics are based in reality. The Space Marines, being akin to real-life marines, smash through the enemy forces with Bolters (you know, the weapon that more than 60% of every Chapter is required to use as a primary weapon during every engagement) and Heavy Weapons, while IG hold the line, maintain supply lines, etc.
Err, no. Marines would be out of ammunition long before they could accomplish anything, and often get credit for idiotic things like "a whole squad could capture a planet". And given their absurd costs to make and support combined with laughably small numbers they're a spectacular waste of effort by the Imperium. Meanwhile the IG have WWI technology, little concept of strategy beyond human wave attacks and having more bodies than the enemy, and no real hope of success other than the fact that the enemy is almost always equally incompetent.
Key word here being based. GW writers being the idiots they are, they don't understand basic logic like that. However, the Space Marines still act in a similar manner to the way that Marines do today. It is based in reality, but the sheer lack of numbers, alone, (not even taking into account the logistical nightmare) would make them ineffective. If you read about Imperial Guard in action, they don't just drown the enemy in bodies; they act like actual soldiers. They fight like an army; they grab objectives, launch coordinated counterattacks, etc.
Tau tactics are basically just "feth logic, we can just dance around, ignore tactical objectives, and somehow still win."
The Tau objective is killing the enemy. Territory is meaningless to the Tau because they can redeploy at will, fight wherever they want, and never worry about supply lines on the ground. Once the enemy is dead you can take any territory you want. You can't compare that kind of absurd strategic mobility with real-world tactics that depend on ground-based supply chains for support.
Also, there is a reason you don't just bomb every planet to hell. Most of the time, you want the planet to be remotely intact, not a radioactive, cratered wasteland.
You are aware that tactical nukes exist, right? You know, weapons that are perfectly capable of wiping out troops on the ground without causing any permanent damage to the planet. The only reason we don't see them is because "and then they nuked the incoming horde of orks and the planet was saved, the end" isn't the kind of story GW wants to tell in 40k.
Pretty sure that that's exactly what I said right afterwards. Something along the lines of "surgical strikes" "orbital bombardment", you know, what you just said. But thanks for actually reading what I wrote. I really appreciate it.
However, strategic bombing is something that is frequently found in 40k. From Chapter Masters calling down precision Orbital Strikes (see: Codex Space Marine) to Inquisitors calling down precision Orbital Lances (see: Codex Inquisition) to Space Marine Captains denying the enemy a valuable resource (see: Fallen Angels). The fact of the matter is, the authors of this narrative completely ignored the mountains of fluff that feature this, in favor of being idiots and writing a big, steamy pile of bad fluff.
And, again, this happens all the time. GW wants to tell stories about heroic ground combat and so orbital bombardment is shoved into the background and always forgotten when it would get in the way of the story. Don't act like this is something special with the Tau because it happens just as often when the Tau should be the ones dropping a few nukes on stuff from orbit.
*sigh* you are the most irritating... I literally pointed out the fact that "GW being GW", they leave gak out like this all the time. While it is frequently mentioned, especially in Space Marine stuff (from what I've read), it is still left out of places where it would have been the logical conclusion. But, sure, take out of it what you will. I don't care anymore, you seem to be getting angry over a silly internet discussion.
@Bleak
Spoiler:
bleak wrote:
dusara217 wrote: @Bleak I love how your primary defense is that he's a dumb fanboy who is grasping at straws for his entire defense and he's soo stoopid and such a fething scrub and such a bludy fenboi. Now, onto the good part! The red is my rebuff of much of what you said.
bleak wrote:
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yes, it has been explicitly pointed out repeatedly that the Imperium were a "terror to fight", and that the Tau weren't willing to engage them in open combat. Therefore, the Imperium had Void Superiority.
Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength.
Yes, in several posts that were prior to yours. Maybe you should bother reading the thread - or, better yet, the fluff.
And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond?
If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Again with the petty insults . This isn't the place for them. Why not include firewarrior in this discussion? What, you mean besides the fact that it contradicts innumerable other fluff sources? You mean besides the fact that it is a video game designed to make a lowly grunt into a mighty hero? You mean besides the fact that it had to be tailored to actually be fun (which is virtually impossible to do if you make it strictly fluff-faithful)?
Why bring in other races? Because those races are faster and stronger than the Tau, yet the Space Marines defeated them. The Dark Eldar use tech so advanced the Tau couldn't even concieve of it (not to mention the fact that it's Warp-based, but that's another story altogether). The Dark Eldar have 63,000,000+ years' worth of technological development going into their vehicles. You really think that the one faction that is infamous for being the fastest faction in the Galaxy is going to somehow be slower than these backwater savages? You honestly think that the Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat, could not do the same to the Tau? This comparison is relevant because it points out the inconsistencies of this campaign; it points out how this story contradicts boatloads of other fluff.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Yes modern warfare does have mobile bases. But, of course, these are logical bases with the ability to defend themselves from a ground assault. Not flying islands that could be easily brought down with a few hundred Melta Charges to the belly. Humans can cast Psychic powers because they make sense. They explain all sorts of paranormal phenomena. The Psychic powers are an integral and consistent portion of the Setting, that have been explained to death. You can't compare something like that - with nothing that would make it not make sense in the real world - to something that has blatant weaknesses that are conveniently ignored by the authors.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
SMH Again with the petty insults. Actually, that just points out how the Tau continue to develop technology, while the Imperium is still reliant upon the same gak they had 15k years ago (the approx. time of the Fall of Old Night). Also, you are pointing out issues that have nothing to do with this conversation. The portrayment of the UltraSues has little to do with the portrayment of the Tau. Not only have the Smurfs never been in any major engagements with the Tau, they are also the one faction that has more plot armour than any other faction in the game. The Smurfs have nothing to do with this; you might as well bring in the fact that bacon is the ultimate sandwhich topping while you're at it.
Ok, sure, imperium had space control, so why do they not bombard the land below? What I am insinuating is that there is a reason why the marines couldn't do it, and you answered it I guess?
That's exactly the issue, there was no logical reason not to bombard the land below. There have always been surgical bombardments in 40k. Orbital Lance Strikes, Tactical Magma Warheads, bog-standard artillery bombardments, all kinds of things. There is zero reason they couldn't have been employed in this narrative.
Well it wasn't a petty insult, but more about asking the poster why he had so much rage towards the tau victory in the book? Perhaps you should read the post properly as well as replying to the rest of my post as well? I did question why space marines had been up played in the their fluff as well and why didn't you answer that?
lol, i'm reading this whole post in the voice of Jillian from Family Guy XD. Anyways, back on topic. There was no rage in that post. I literally quadruple-checked (once prior to my original reply, another right after starting to type it, another halfway through, and then another just now) - I"ve read it four times. You Tau fans seem to be the only ones getting pissy (see: the post I just replied to further up in the post). I hate Space Marine plot armour just as much as the next guy, but if that's how GW gets their little plastic soldiers off the shelves, then so be it; it gives me a game to play. That is not something I deign to reply to at virtually any time, simply because it comes up so much that it is just common sense that the GW poster boys are going to have the most rediculous plot armour.
HAHAHA wait, psychic powers make sense and floating fortresses don't. Well played and thank you for your reply.
Yes, psychic powers make perfect tactical sense. If I'm going to be assaulting an enemy planet, I would love some Battle Psykers on my side. Giant, lumbering, floating fortresses that would make prime targets for Orbital Bombardment? Not so much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, tactical nukes leave behind residual radiation for decades (if not centuries), just like regular nukes; it's just more contained.
Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat
Since when does that happen?
Or do you mean "sometimes Astartes do not fail in setting up ambushes in known Dark Eldar raid locations"?
Because those are somewhat different things
And Dark Eldar are not really famous for sane battle tactics, being drug-addicted adreanaline junkies who love getting in close combat they are
Oh well, from the way you think I guess you don't get how absurd you sound, trying to make 40k right. You say floating fortresses are stupid, and yet, imperium has the largest most stupid mobile fortress on two legs ever. And come to think of it, a well placed bombardment can deal with it easier because it can collapse easier than flying discs. And sure, bringing battle psykers are realistic, just like invisible knights. And if you want to talk about tactical sense, the marines don't seem to have any in this conflict until shrike took over.
I'm quite glad you ignored the marine fanboys because they are too common nowadays, gotta shift the hate to the new codex release race.
Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat
Since when does that happen?
Or do you mean "sometimes Astartes do not fail in setting up ambushes in known Dark Eldar raid locations"?
Because those are somewhat different things
And Dark Eldar are not really famous for sane battle tactics, being drug-addicted adreanaline junkies who love getting in close combat they are
Dark Eldar regularly kick Imperial ass, this is a fact. Space Marines strangely succeed in bringing them into open combat, though (somehow), and, during the HH, the Legions frequently won conflicts with Eldar Pirates who wore their victims' skin as cloaks (the precursors to current Dark Eldar
bleak wrote:Oh well, from the way you think I guess you don't get how absurd you sound, trying to make 40k right. You say floating fortresses are stupid, and yet, imperium has the largest most stupid mobile fortress on two legs ever. And come to think of it, a well placed bombardment can deal with it easier because it can collapse easier than flying discs. And sure, bringing battle psykers are realistic, just like invisible knights. And if you want to talk about tactical sense, the marines don't seem to have any in this conflict until shrike took over.
I'm quite glad you ignored the marine fanboys because they are too common nowadays, gotta shift the hate to the new codex release race.
hate? seriously? People like you just... always automagically assuming that I hate Tau just because I disagree with you. You're like those feminists who say that anybody who disagrees with them is a misogynist.
I'm assuming you're speaking of Titans, which are less mobile fortresses and more like fire support platforms with the most powerful weapons you can fit onto two legs. Obviously, they would never work in real life, but still. I honestly don't see what that has to do with anything (you were, at first, defending the mobile fortresses, and then, suddenly, you think that I'm some Imperuim fanboy who doesn't understand the fact that the Imperium has more plot armour and illogic than almost any other collection of factions). Throwing around claims about Space Marines that are obvious don't change this debate in the slightest. In a narrative written this poorly, obviously the Marines are going to be blundering idiots that can barely walk and talk at the same time. Stating the obvious doesn't help your case in the slightest. The fact remains: Void Superiority = win. That is it should have gone; either the Tau fleet launched some daring series of raids that saw to the crippling of a few key battleships, used some new superweapon, or utilized hit-and-run attacks to draw the Human fleet away. None of this happened, unfortunately, instead we get win because plot. No real thinking went into who would win this.
Firstly, you said that the mobile fortress was stupid and it was more realistic to bring a psyker in a made believe universe, which is then proven that the mobile fortress worked super well against the marines in this match. And what debate is there? Saying that the tau should have lost? Well, they won in the kauyon codex and like I said before, both sides took heavy casualties and even the tau side was shown to be beaten quite severely, and did you even acknowledge that? No, you just focused on the negative side I said about marines because only fanboys would emphasize on that. And I believe I said it wasn't written to good light of the marines as well, and you casually ignored that part. So please read before you post.
And oh, void space wasn't mentioned. It was voltoris that imperium had a strong hold over, not prefectia so the victory went to the tau. And I mentioned about how marines can win without real thinking too, and you brushed it aside, so good job again. Please troll better!
You guys better cool it before a mod shuts the discussion down... not that it's been very productive so far, given the nature of the thread
And why not use more fluff references to support your statements rather than trade petty insults? You fanboy this, hater that is hardly going to convince anyone.
Oh and by fluff references I mean with actual links, quotes, or page numbers, so that others reading the thread can actually check rather than having to take your word for it.
Wow, this has quickly turned into a my dad can beat up your dad kind of argument... On another note, any predictions on the Mont' ka supplement? We know imperial assassins are sent to assassinate Aun'va, Farsight and Shadowsun, and according to GW not all of them survive. We also know Longstrike and Pask go head to head in a large cat and mouse tank engagement, and again, according to GW one of them dies.
I'm guessing Aun'va is going to be the one to be assassinated, hopefully with a bullet to the head from a vindicare during an impassioned speech (a political and spiritual leader of an interstellar empire has no business on the front line anyways). I think Shadowsun and Farsight are both going to survive, since they are quite popular and sell quite well. As much as it pains me to admit it, I'm pretty sure Longstrike will die to Pask. For starters, GW is releasing some new tank kits for IG/AM and making Pask look good will help them look good. Second, it's about time a member of the IG/AM gets to have some of the glory as opposed to the marines. Lastly, Tau killed the raven guard chapter master and possibly the obsidian knight during the Kauyon supplement, so it's likely they are going to be on the receiving end this time.
If Tau do kill of any imperial characters it will probably be Farsight that takes their lives, though it's a big if.
Yes, please, I agree just let this thread die already. Nothing of value is coming from this anymore. We can all just wait for the next book to be released, a new thread can be made, more complaints can emerge about how the Tau don't deserve to win/shouldn't win/have single-handedly ruined the entire setting/make no sense in Warhammer 40k/are apparently written by a different group of Fluff writers to the rest of the setting who are bad at their jobs. This will, certainly, repeat in that thread. But let us just stop this one now.
This is why discussions online concerning Warhammer have become things I dread. It seems as if there is always only one faction permitted to be awesome, which faction that is differs from person to person, and any attempt to even imply another faction is relevant or not utter losers who have no defining or impressive quality gets attacked. To be clear everyone does it.
EDIT: Yes, I like that, some speculation about what comes next is nice. I saw on /tg/ a leaked page already confirms the Obsidian Knight is alive. Honestly no surprise since we've already been told that Tybalt has aide from a 'Dark and Mysterious Warrior' and the nature of the Obsidian Knight's 'death' was in 40k an obvious indicator he'd survive. I agree Pask will probably kill Longstrike, I have little to no doubt about that. To be fair I think, unfortunately, its unlikely that any Imperial Character with a Miniature will be killed by the Tau. Aun'va I'm very confident will die, but the image in the White Dwarf makes me suspect Culexus, and Longstrike will probably die to Pask. I'm rather confident, from the preview pages, that at least one of the Eight will die in the Eversor's Bio-Meltdown (probably saving Farsight). As for Imperial Characters...I think all the ones on the field now have Miniatures barring Tybalt so...I doubt any of them will die. Ko'sarro and Shrike won't, nor will Tybalt or the Obsidian Knight. Pask has the potential to die, I won't deny that, but I agree that its more likely Longstrike will die.
I was kind of hoping it would be the callidus to go after farsight. The callidus could kill one of the 8 off screen, (or off supplement. whatever) impersonate them, then surprise Farsight at a critical moment... Cue an epic duel between the two, Farsight will get wounded but win by the skin of his teeth, perhaps the dawn blade reacts with power we have not seen before and it saves him. Who knows?
chalkobob wrote: I'm guessing Aun'va is going to be the one to be assassinated, hopefully with a bullet to the head from a vindicare during an impassioned speech (a political and spiritual leader of an interstellar empire has no business on the front line anyways).
That'd be cool to see. Aun'va has been around forever and wasn't really very likeable, nor that interesting of a character. Would be interesting to shake things up by having such a prominent Ethereal get assassinated.
chalkobob wrote: Lastly, Tau killed the raven guard chapter master and possibly the obsidian knight during the Kauyon supplement, so it's likely they are going to be on the receiving end this time.
Shrike is chapter master now? Man I haven't been keeping up. That's badass. But losing a First Founding chapter master to the Tau? Ouch.
Firstly, you said that the mobile fortress was stupid and it was more realistic to bring a psyker in a made believe universe, which is then proven that the mobile fortress worked super well against the marines in this match. And what debate is there? Saying that the tau should have lost? Well, they won in the kauyon codex and like I said before, both sides took heavy casualties and even the tau side was shown to be beaten quite severely, and did you even acknowledge that? No, you just focused on the negative side I said about marines because only fanboys would emphasize on that. And I believe I said it wasn't written to good light of the marines as well, and you casually ignored that part. So please read before you post.
And oh, void space wasn't mentioned. It was voltoris that imperium had a strong hold over, not prefectia so the victory went to the tau. And I mentioned about how marines can win without real thinking too, and you brushed it aside, so good job again. Please troll better!
You might notice that you were the only one throwing around insults. You continually respond to logical fallacies I point out by claling me a hater, a fanboy, etc. I do not like the way Marines are portrayed. At all. And, yes, obviously the Tau should have lost; logically, whoever has Void Superiority will win by virtue of surgical bombardments and area denial Orbital Strikes (not to mention the air superiority that would likely be subsequent). I pointed out blatant weaknesses in the flying fortress, you casually ignored it and called me a hater. I have acknowledged the idiocy of Space Marines repeatedly on this thread, but no, I"m just an idiot fanboi herdy her her. You call me a troll for pointing out logical fallacies, acknowledging those logical fallacies regarding the side that I believe should have won, and acknowledging what you say [without throwing around petty insults]. I would appreciate it if you would, at the very least, stop acting like a petulant child every time somebody brings up a point that you can't counter.
Facts:
- The Imperium was directly stated to have a fleet that the Tau were unwilling to engage in open combat
- The Imperium had Void Superiority, as the Tau were uwilling to fully engage, which would have allowed, at the very least, Space Marine Strike Cruisers to launch Orbital Bombardments
- The Tau won the battle with heavy casualties (which is immaterial to this discussion, as I wasn't the one complaining about the authors glossing over this fact until the last two pages)
- The Imperium had their asses handed to them on the ground
- The Tau utilized floating fortresses that could have easily been handled with Melta Charges placed along their bellies, or, alternatively, Orbital Bombardment
These are facts that have been stated again and again in this thread. If you are unwilling to even attempt to defend your side of the discussion, then I believe that it is safe to say that it is over. Good day.
chalkobob wrote:I was kind of hoping it would be the callidus to go after farsight. The callidus could kill one of the 8 off screen, (or off supplement. whatever) impersonate them, then surprise Farsight at a critical moment... Cue an epic duel between the two, Farsight will get wounded but win by the skin of his teeth, perhaps the dawn blade reacts with power we have not seen before and it saves him. Who knows?
I find myself looking forward to this. Maybe have the Dawn Blade having some kind of ability akin to the Digital Weapon John Grammaticus used in Unremembered Empire (basically disintegrates the foe).
Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat
Since when does that happen?
Or do you mean "sometimes Astartes do not fail in setting up ambushes in known Dark Eldar raid locations"?
Because those are somewhat different things
And Dark Eldar are not really famous for sane battle tactics, being drug-addicted adreanaline junkies who love getting in close combat they are
And why not use more fluff references to support your statements rather than trade petty insults? You fanboy this, hater that is hardly going to convince anyone.
Oh and by fluff references I mean with actual links, quotes, or page numbers, so that others reading the thread can actually check rather than having to take your word for it.
OtoH, its a Tau thread.
They are always different.
No sources, no quotes , whoever doesn't share someones POV is a hater, etc.
Seems like a basic setup of those.
At least, i can take from this it was a good idea to spend 0 € on this campaign.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
Uriel ventris used bio toxins to kill nids..... So....yeah, that happened.
I don't see an issue myself, yeah tau tactics don't work, yes they fight like insurgents and give up ground that would lead to tactical suicide, but it's suspension of disbelief, admittedly as an ex military man myself a pretty big pill to swallow, but I allow it as I don't mind the tau getting a win, they cannot possibly win the larger war, let them take a dozen imperial planets, the imperium will just swat them, or the latent psykers will deamon bomb them, or the harmless cult of Tzeentch they allowed to exist on imperial world's will corrupt them, or the a.I revolution will wipe them out, the Tau are going to be the ones to wipe themselves out, be it when the population becomes so large the ethereals cannot control them all, or there is a "horus heresy" within the empire, just a matter of time, so let them have there victories, there days are numbered, like every 40k race.
Formosa wrote: Uriel ventris used bio toxins to kill nids..... So....yeah, that happened.
I don't see an issue myself, yeah tau tactics don't work, yes they fight like insurgents and give up ground that would lead to tactical suicide, but it's suspension of disbelief, admittedly as an ex military man myself a pretty big pill to swallow, but I allow it as I don't mind the tau getting a win, they cannot possibly win the larger war, let them take a dozen imperial planets, the imperium will just swat them, or the latent psykers will deamon bomb them, or the harmless cult of Tzeentch they allowed to exist on imperial world's will corrupt them, or the a.I revolution will wipe them out, the Tau are going to be the ones to wipe themselves out, be it when the population becomes so large the ethereals cannot control them all, or there is a "horus heresy" within the empire, just a matter of time, so let them have there victories, there days are numbered, like every 40k race.
The issue isn't that Tyranids are immune to all toxins, it's just they develop countermeasures so quickly that to use something like the Lifeeater Virus (Exterminatus Weapon) on them would make it so that they couldn't use the weapon again in the future (unless they were absolutely certain that the Hive Fleet was completely destroyed).
Adrik wrote: I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare.
By forcing the enemy to over-extend, isolate their units, and draw out their supply lines. Then the Tau army hops aboard a Manta squadron, re-deploys in a matter of minutes, and cuts those supply lines. Or re-deploys overwhelming forces against the isolated units that took the bait. Or if nobody takes the bait they just pull out and try again somewhere else.
We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open.
Tau "lure" tactics do not necessarily involve drawing units into melee range. Drawing them into range of their ranged weapons is also a valid strategy, as long as their firing positions make them good targets.
You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed.
The point you're missing is that the Tau don't fight like real-world armies. There is no concept of forward or backward because the "front" can change at will. If the enemy comes "forward" then they are conceding the ground they just left, ground that can be occupied with a brief Manta flight. And suddenly you're cut off and have to keep moving "forward" to retreat! Or maybe you just move "forward", draw out your supply lines, and find yourself out of fuel and ammunition because your supply convoys keep getting wiped out by over-the-horizon seeker missile strikes targeted by invisible spotters.
See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
Guerrilla warfare can only be done by small forces in the real world. Real world limits like supply lines and large-scale strategic mobility do not apply to the Tau.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
No, we're saying that you can't just apply real-world design rules like "bottom armor on a vehicle is always weak" to completely different units. Tau mobile fortifications aren't invulnerable, but they almost certainly have armor plating on the bottom to protect them as they fly.
It should be noted that not only are seemingly isolated unit used as bait, but a lack of units is used as well. An area that looks free from tau presence, for them to claim and further strengthen their hold/use the resources there is perfect bait.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
On the FW game, there was a BL book based on it made. IIRC a trio of crisis suits killed the greater demon with their missile pods. It should also be noted that the tau orc dropship is actually from FW, they were going to use a manta but it was too big for their purposes.
And I don't see how it not being good has anything to do with it being canon or not. It was a firmly mediocre game, but it did have a sort of interesting story, and the book was very good.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
That was a fairly calm post actually. No rage from what I read; no exclamation marks, no swearing, no italics, bolds, etc. Nothing to really indicate rage, but you can read into it what you will (you seem to think that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a ragin' fanboi).
a.) He did not say that Tau tech wouldn't work, thanks for making up arguments that nobody on this thread posted
b.) Also, don't take things at face value? Seriously? Very well then, I now believe that this entire narrative was just a fever dream that Shadowsun had while she was sick with Tau Malaria. c.) Making Titans invisible never came up. Thanks for, once again, making up arguments that nobody has posted on this thread about.
d.) Stop arguing tactics. You don't know what you're talking about, and your blatant ignorance regarding the subject is not helping your cause in the slightest. If you think that Shadowsun's tactics were solid, then good for you; just keep it to yourself, because the only people you're going to convince are others who are ignorant of real-life warfare.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
That was a fairly calm post actually. No rage from what I read; no exclamation marks, no swearing, no italics, bolds, etc. Nothing to really indicate rage, but you can read into it what you will (you seem to think that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a ragin' fanboi).
a.) He did not say that Tau tech wouldn't work, thanks for making up arguments that nobody on this thread posted
b.) Also, don't take things at face value? Seriously? Very well then, I now believe that this entire narrative was just a fever dream that Shadowsun had while she was sick with Tau Malaria. c.) Making Titans invisible never came up. Thanks for, once again, making up arguments that nobody has posted on this thread about.
d.) Stop arguing tactics. You don't know what you're talking about, and your blatant ignorance regarding the subject is not helping your cause in the slightest. If you think that Shadowsun's tactics were solid, then good for you; just keep it to yourself, because the only people you're going to convince are others who are ignorant of real-life warfare.
Erm, what about melta-ing the underbelly of a floating fortress that is basically invulnerable in game?
Sure, you can think of that while other people see it as a tau victory over imperium for this book.
Do you know what the tau call psychic powers?
And you do? On a fiction that is created by authors who are writing about space fantasy. Sure man, I enjoy the fluff and 'fake tactics' that make the stories interesting while you sulk and keep thinking its not possible for a game about plastic spacemen. The design for tau has always been about hunting, and it works tactically because their 'prey' are super powered humans. Let that sink in for a second. If you know you can't beat them holding ground, will you still be holding ground? Or find a better way to take your prey down?
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
That was a fairly calm post actually. No rage from what I read; no exclamation marks, no swearing, no italics, bolds, etc. Nothing to really indicate rage, but you can read into it what you will (you seem to think that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a ragin' fanboi).
a.) He did not say that Tau tech wouldn't work, thanks for making up arguments that nobody on this thread posted
b.) Also, don't take things at face value? Seriously? Very well then, I now believe that this entire narrative was just a fever dream that Shadowsun had while she was sick with Tau Malaria. c.) Making Titans invisible never came up. Thanks for, once again, making up arguments that nobody has posted on this thread about.
d.) Stop arguing tactics. You don't know what you're talking about, and your blatant ignorance regarding the subject is not helping your cause in the slightest. If you think that Shadowsun's tactics were solid, then good for you; just keep it to yourself, because the only people you're going to convince are others who are ignorant of real-life warfare.
Erm, what about melta-ing the underbelly of a floating fortress that is basically invulnerable in game?
This is a fluff discussion. Rules have no place in a discussion that is about the fluff, as the two rarely coincide.
Sure, you can think of that while other people see it as a tau victory over imperium for this book.
Obviously it was a Tau victory; that was never in dispute.
Do you know what the tau call psychic powers?
Erm, superstition and balogna?
And you do? On a fiction that is created by authors who are writing about space fantasy. Sure man, I enjoy the fluff and 'fake tactics' that make the stories interesting while you sulk and keep thinking its not possible for a game about plastic spacemen. The design for tau has always been about hunting, and it works tactically because their 'prey' are super powered humans. Let that sink in for a second. If you know you can't beat them holding ground, will you still be holding ground? Or find a better way to take your prey down?
Sulk? You have quite the imagination, there, young one (especially since I have made several jokes throughout my posts, some more subtle than others).
There is a little something called suspension of disbelief. I have no problem believing that Tau beat the Imperium - in fact, I love that the Imperium lost. My issue is that the Tau went about it in the least realistic manner possible. I have no issue with flying space ships that go into other dimensions and fire super mega deathrays. Why? Because it is based upon science that we simply don't understand yet. That is part of what makes it fun, but, when you go too far into the unrealistic, and begin treading the illogical, it takes the fun out of the fluff. When I read Priests of Mars, I can overlook the grammatical errors and clearly phony mathematical terms, I can overlook Tech-Priests having bits of their brains in a series of jars mounted onto a vehicle and somehow still having their brains be fully functional. However, when they take a Tech-Priest, who has supposedly had such extensive neural enhancement that he barely even feels emotion anymore, and they make him feel flustered, angered, fearful, or anything but cold amusement, it breaks that suspension of disbelief; it treads the illogical.
EDIT: fixed the coding on the URL and the colored text.
Yes it IS a fluff discussion, and he did put in the reason how calgar is able to defeat the avatar of khaine in a brawl. And somehow you just avoided that. Sure.
And it was a really minor victory because they know they are spent and I too do not argue that.
No, they actually have a name for it called mind science and that is because they cloaked their forces. The knights that were in battle were cloaked and shadowsun was shocked as well when they appeared done by the white scars named librarian.
I do agree some parts were illogical and as I stated many other codexes were as well just so they can look good. And I guess imagination isn't such a bad thing since I can suspend myself to believe in what the author is trying to convey.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
bleak wrote: Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!".
No, it was bad writing that the Imperial side did not orbital bombard the planet before the Space Marines made landfall. The "oh they could have committed their manta missile destroyers" isn't a counter point. The Manta missile Destroyers do not have the firepower of an Imperial Strike cruiser, or an Imperial Battle Cruiser, or the entire fleet sitting in high orbit that could have pounded the planet. The idea that a fleet would sit there and just watch is ignoring established fluff, tactics, and common sense. The planet was an undefended Fortress world that the Tau took easily because there was barely a defender to stop them. Second, if you actually read what I wrote instead of being an emotional troll, you would have read that I said the Tau should have won Prefectia. My descent on the book is that the writing team wrote up an unrealistic style of warfare when books like Helsreach showed exactly how vulnerable Space Marines are to attrition warfare. Attrition Warfare is the counter to Space Marines and in the end that is what really happened that the book was trying to hide so to appease people like you only to say in the end "Yeah the Tau took horrific losses and everyone of the Space Marine chapters withdrew and are still in fighting strength." which at that point it is actually a pyrrhic victory or by Real Military standards a gigantic loss. In fact, when the Space Marines withdrew it was because they did not want to be dragged into a war of attrition because they did not want to take heavy losses. In the End when you read Kauyon you are left with the picture that the Tau are incredibly stupid because they lost a billion men fighting 8 chapters of space marines, house terryn, and two freeblades, despite the book was not trying to describe the Tau's losses until the end of the book. A billion? They had the numbers that 8000 space marines spread out over the entire planet could not counter seeing how the Crisis suits are supposed to be the counter force to Space Marines, the book was a depressing work of bad writers.
I have no problem that the Tau won in Kauyon. They need to win so the story isn't a boring Imperium Curb stomp of an uppity Alien race. However, I do not want to read about a Mary Sue who has unrealistic tactics that runs counter to common sense and is only winning because the writers couldn't figure a way to articulate a war that stays true to both factions. If Tau beat the Imperium because of their Tech superiority than how does anyone fight the Necrons? Their tech is beyond everyone, they are the only faction who doesn't use the warp, and they have FTL drives that are FASTER than warp travel. Oh and let's not forget their base troops carry weapons that can bring Titans to their knees. They can alter the laws of reality and they can unleash their shackled gods upon their enemies of which ONE C'tan shard wiped out an entire tendril of a Hive fleet.
bleak wrote: And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps..
They did not hold ground. The Tidal Fortresses were destroyed by the White Scars. Or did you forget that Khan basically hammered through them and had to bring down air support? At that point Sternshield and Swiftflame were waging a guerilla warfare by fighting on the backfooting. Sternshield's whole "brilliant" style of warfare was to push his forces forward, engage the enemy, and then have his forces pretend to rout so to draw the enemy into a trap. I do not know how many times i have to say this or how sad it is that a military officer is telling you it doesn't work and you are arguing that it would. Trap warfare doesn't work, fighting on the backend doesn't work. Also the sad part is In Warzone Damocles the Imperium did not win because they were defending the massive fortress of House Terryn. The battle happened on the road where Sudabeh casted an intense fog that the Tau could not see through. At that point the White Scars attacked head on while a regiment of Cadians and a Regiment of Catachans hit the Tau in a pincer attack that completely destroyed Shadowsun's forces. Her only great tactic was to kill Sudabeh which at that point thirty Knights walked out of the fortress while the Obsidian Knight just erupted out of the Tau lines and began slaughter the cadres. Her entire force was nearly wiped out. How that battle made her think "We need fortresses" is beyond me. She lossed because of Supernatural fog... Also, the only time they really engaged was with the Stormsurges which basically nullified the Knights before any of that once Kayvaan Shrike was named Chapter Master the Tau were losing every engagement until the debut of the Stormsurges. The Aircast took horrific losses due to Space Marine anti air working together and on the ground the space marines annihilated the trap warfare.
Finally, you again are not presenting any factual way that their warstyle is actually credible. A trap doesn't work because luring an enemy to fight your forces turns into an engagement that is decided by who is the better fighter. Telling your forces to pretend you are overwhelmed and act like your routing would lead the unit (cadre in this point) to be wiped out. A retreat has to be done in a very organized and thoughtful manner. Soldiers getting up and running for their lives get annihilated even if they are acting. Once you stop firing the enemy fills that air with gun fire... and they begin moving up.
bleak wrote: Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
The tau have to have bases. They have to store ammunition, they have to have a place to treat their wounded, they have to have places to fix damage vehicles, places for their soldiers to eat and sleep, and places to refuel. An army that doesn't have a FOB, doesn't have a main base, doesn't have supply depots, doesn't have hospitals, and doesn't have a line of battle isn't an army. Everything you are saying makes no sense. In Iraq, we fought in the desert.. flat ground with zero cover. We put up FOBs... why? Because you have to have logistical support for your troops... Our enemies had fobs because if you are planning on running after the engagement than you are LOSING. Also the Tidal Walls are not bases, they are mobile fortifications, not a base. A base is a place where you can sleep, fix vehicles, store ammunition and fuel, have places for wounded, and have a place for local commanders to plan. Also, Marines are highly vulnerable to conventional tactics. They were broken down into chapters so that the Imperial guard can overwhelm them and dragged them down into direct confrontation. Space Marines act as Shock troops, they are portrayed as strike forces that hit the enemy in lightning raids, do as much damage as possible and leave. The battle on Taros where the Space Marines of the Avenging Sons brought a strike force down to kill the planetary governor was a great story that you should read. The Tau were actually portrayed in a way that made sense as they used their numerical advantage and firepower to overwhelm the Avenging Sons. The Sons did a lot of damage but the Tau realizing they needed to utilize their numbers and bringing in their Crisis suits were able to force the Avenging Sons to withdraw. They beat the Avenging Sons because they realized that super numbers and constant pressure was needed.
bleak wrote: On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
You obviously did not read what i wrote. I said Tau vehicles look like crap because they are a failed fusion of anime and a defined western style. It's like watching GI Joe in its 80s arts style and then in comes Gundam 8th MS Team. Also, their mechs are very silly looking because at least the Knights, titans, and what have you have reinforced ankles, feet that would work, and their art corresponds the the art style of the entire game. You can whine about titans becoming invisible by psykers but that stuff has always been in the game. The Tau are a faction that is the least played with an art style and a fluff that is in direct confrontation with the game itself. They cannot be written without a Deus Ex Machina to make them win.
bleak wrote: And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
I own a Forge World Warlord Titan. The Warlord Titan has a rule called World Burner which allows it to attack and destroy terrain which includes Battlefield debris. So the Walls can totally be destroyed and in the Kauyon book the Tidal walls were destroyed, so at this point you are just making strawmen arguments. Your Fanboyism is very very sad and you should really shut up. Calgar can still beat a swarmlord and its a flip of a coin every time unless Calgar shoots him up. The Swarmlord no longer forces rerolls of invul saves and instead instakills on 6s which is worthless against a model with Eternal Warrior.
bleak wrote: Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
Now you write this absurd ad hominem because you cannot think of anything valid but a "nu uh". Grow up kid, you are posting nonsense and your writing is showing anger. If you cannot refute an argument and just dismiss anyone telling you that something doesn't work because of the facts than you should except it. Are you getting paid by GW to defend the Tau? I have every right to criticize bad writing, you can defend it all you want, however it doesn't change that Tau writing is bad. You arguing with a soldier that Tau tactics are realistic is a show of your raging fanboyism. Only a fanboy would argue that an Officer in the Marine corps doesn't know about tactics. I am sorry i find this hilarious. As for your attempted barb.. Lets just say you may be really angry in two years.
You don't need to say you are a gamer to prove you are.
The gameplay purpose wise, orbital bombardment cannot destroy battlefield debris so you are the one grabbing at straws here, first saying the marines can shoot melta at it. Yes so much fanboyism from your side too, at least that's both of us.
So I need to shut up while you can freely criticise the bad writing? Wow, at least now I know where you stand. I didn't say that you didn't know about tactics, but giving a reason why shadowsun's tactics could work. I'm not angry, just pretty funny to see how 'mature' you are trying to talk down to someone who is defending the authors who did put in work towards the stories. I have a raging fanboyism over all the fluff that gw puts out because it is entertaining(and at least I am able to take being called that), but at least that's better than being a fanboy who defends his faction and arguing just because his faction lost to another faction in the other faction's release.
Angry at tau losing? Lol, sorry, but I think I take it better than you.
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bit general and narrative.
