War Zone Damocles - Who wins?

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**123ply**

SomeRandomEvilGuy: The story where Shadow Sun is at the mercy of a guardsman is from the Anthology Shas'o, a short story which I'm pretty sure is "The last of Kiru's line." She and her prisoner, and maybe some firewarriors, are suddenly ambushed by stormtroopers and the regiments Colonial. Knowing she'd die in the shootout, she taunts the colonial into fighting her one on one, where the colonial kicks her ass despite her being in her XV22 battle suit. It makes sense I think because of the Tau's inferiority in melee. Well anyway, the prisoner comes to save the Commander, but the colonial also kicks his ass, then Shadow sun kills the colonial with her fusions blasters (I think) and then fires at the bridges ropes or whatnot, causing the bridge to collapse and let Shas'o something Ra and the prisoner escape. It was something along those lines but I can't get any quotes right now unfortunately.

What I'm really looking for is to see how the Imperium deals with battle suits, weather they just overwhelm them with fire power, if they need to outsmart them or whatever, I'm really interested in hearing about thay, but nothing cheesy hopefully.

Really, I like we'll written narratives. If the Imperium wins, cool. But if it's cheesy and they're written to be OP like in Imperial Glory, then it judt turns me off and I regard it as bogus.

**Anemone**

@Furyou: Thanks for that, it is nice to hear, as a Sister player I have actually always sympathized with the Xenos and Chaos Players and the way they get their asses kicked all the time in the narrative. It is nice to hear something positive for a change.

Then on to the ret of what is being posted;

The fact that a single non-Imperium faction is doing ok (and note the Tau are only doing ok since in the 40k-story 2 planets are insignificant statistically) and it results in calls for the entire faction to be wiped out has always bugged me. I'll admit I enjoyed 40k when I discussed it with my friends and read about it but the internet is rapidly turning me off the fluff. If not a single non-Imperium faction is permitted to win narrative supplements with lasting consequence...then I don't really have an interest in the narrative.

After this I think I'm done in this thread, it's not even discussing the Prefectia battle anymore and is just becoming yet another 'our faction rocks, yours is irrelevant' experiment in counter factual history. I've never enjoyed doing that to anyone so I'm not going to respond to those at all. It has no merits in my eyes.

@123ply: Oh yes, I still owe you examples, can I then send you the book names with page numbers to find what you're looking for? Also how they handle them depends on the faction. The Space Wolves just engage them in combat and break them, the Mechanicus usually lose a guy and then shoot them with a high powered weapon, or in the short story I'm remembering I believe they use the Dragoons to kill them with a lance charge. Don't know what the 13th Penal Legion used, forgot that story's sequence of events.

@RandomEvilGuy: Well I did mention Eldrad and the Swarmlord too but, to be honest, since 80% of all major characters are Space Marines...I kind of have to mention them. To be fair the moment experience is dealt with realistically in Warhammer 40k enormous problems wI'll emerge. Dark Eldar and Eldar Aspect warriors hardly reflect several centuries old warriors. Glaring particularly in the case of Aspct Warriors who are several centuries old War Priests dedicated to a particular art form yet are at best usually described as having comparable skill to a Space Marine. Worse yet, if we want to handle experience realistically, Necrom characters should far outstrip what is shown (their age is actually mind boggling if you look at the dates) and the Silent King, who never even went to sleep, should have revolutionized the already incredible Necron technology considering how long he has been awake with time to watery (and he is described as already having a prodigious mind). Experience, particularly in the matter of age, isn't dealt with consistently in the fluff. Hence I have no problem expecting Shadowsun, as thor-tier character of a playable faction, to be comparable to the other top-tier characters from playable armies.

In Last of Kiru's line her guards a prisoner has her at gunpoint and it is made clear he could kill her if he wanted. He spares her so that she'll organize for the Tau army to evacuate his family. Later she is engaged in a fight with a colonel and only evades death because said prisoner intervenes to save her.

If you want more Guard beating Tau the novel Fire Caste is a good place to begin. Adeptus Mechanicus and Marines do it more often but Guard do it too. The 13th penal legion also successfully killed one of the Brightswords. If you want I can compile a list for you.

I agree wholeheartedly with the dislike of using Guard simply to make Marines appear cool. I dislike it when any faction is used as such. Strongly dislike it.

On the issue of psychic...we know Tau don't cull psychic races. The Nicassar are a psychic race, members of the empire, who we are told were quite happy to join. We are told the Tau conceal their existence from the Imperium exactly because they know the Imperium hates psychic aliens. Tau, it seems, have yet to have any trouble from this and we are told the Nicassar are a big part of the Tau merchant fleet. If I'm not mistaken the Nicassar are the aliens who were described as 'flat telekinetic polar bears' or such. Apparently they've yet to have a problem from this.

@Grey Templar: Why? Based on what do you assume this? We know Kroot effectively rule themselves still, their Shapers determine their course, and the Tau even do not prohibit or censor their cannibalism despite the Tau being officially opposed to it. In the Skilltaker short story we have a Gue'vesa officer who is promoted to lead a Hunter Cadre at the end. Look one shouldn't think that being part of the Tau Empire is like being a sovereign nation, your subordinate to the Empire, but you're definitely permitted more influence in decisions affecting your life than in any other major hegemon. The Tau hegemon is still immoral, it's just that compared to all other major hegemony it is the most moral alternative. A lesser evil.

**Grey Templar**

Anemone wrote:

@Grey Templar: Why? Based on what do you assume this? We know Kroot effectively rule themselves still, their Shapers determine their course, and the Tau even do not prohibit or censor their cannibalism despite the Tau being officially opposed to it. In the Skilltaker short story we have a Gue'vesa officer who is promoted to lead a Hunter Cadre at the end. Look one shouldn't think that being part of the Tau Empire is like being a sovereign nation, your subordinate to the Empire, but you're definitely permitted more influence in decisions affecting your life than in any other major hegemon. The Tau hegemon is still immoral, it's just that compared to all other major hegemony it is the most moral alternative. A lesser evil.

The Kroot are only still self-ruling because they have actually managed to deceive the Tau. The Tau are unaware of how advanced the Kroot actually are. Their space ships are capable of actual warp travel and their ship contruction facilities are unknown to the Tau. From the Tau perspective, they treat the Kroot as a trained, but dangerous, wardog. They exert, what they think is total, control, but do so warily. Vespids are all but confirmed to be mind controlled by the helmets the Tau give their leaders.

Sure, an exceptional individual might get some recognition, but even though they might, on paper, be full members of their society its delusional to think that non-Tau are anything but second class citizens. Even ones which are "fully integrated".

A human probably actually has more potential freedom on an Imperial planet. The Imperium itself will have very little effect on the day to day life of its citizens. All the Imperium demands is you worship the Emperor, not engage in heresy, and pay your taxes. Other than that, nothing is prohibited or mandated. So really its whatever the local government of your planet is like. It could be a nice democracy, it could be a brutal totalitarian regime, it could be a benevolent dictatorship, it could be a ruthlessly corrupt democratic system. But the Tau is an Orwellian society where everything is monitored, and a sinister evil is hidden behind a polished veneer. It is the worst kind of oppression, the kind imposed "for your own good".

**Anemone**

But based on what? You're simply saying 'they are second class citizens' but what is this assertion based on? Give an example of it. For example where is it ever stated the Kroot are largely autonomous because of deception. How does that even work? Do the Tau permit the. More autonomy because they think they are more primitive? Is that the implication? It would seem incredibly odd for the Tau's attitude to be 'they appear to be primitive, let's allow them enormous autonomy' but then if they found out they were more advanced then at first thought to go 'oh, now let us strip them of their autonomy. Vespid are implied to be mind controlled. An implication which is suspect considering said helmets would be very useful to convincing human populations to join as well but is never used in any way or for . It's an implication at best. It's also a distraction. We are discussing evidence for the second-class citizenship status of non-Tau in the Empire. Numerous Tau do not consider the Krrot 'pets' and we have more than a few expressions of admiration and value for the Kroot's role in the empire by high ranking figures.

Okay to tackle your deities in points one by one;

1) You cannot say that the Imperium has 'little' control of your day to day life then point out that they mandate what you are allowed to believe, read and watch. The Imperium censors anything it considers to not be in line with its ideology. In Fireand Ice an inquisitor includes freedom of choice and thought as being amongst these. The Imperium regulates what a citizen is allowed to believe and express completely. That's an amorous series of interferences. Additionally many other things are prohibited. Being a mutant or too abhuman are prohibited, often punished with death. Use of alien technology, even if it improves your standard of living for no cost, is prohibited as well. Expression of atheism is prohibited. Friendship or interaction with alien races is prohibited. It's ridiculous to assert the Imperium 'prohibits' very little. The entire point is that they are a brutal totalitarian regime.

2) Where does it say everything in the Tau Empire is monitored? I've yet to encounter that quote. In Black Leviathen the Tau even decide to simply allow the nomadic human tribes to continue their nomadic lifestyle and worship whatever Dieties they wish (part of the reason for their joining the Tau as the Imperium was preventing them from doing so).

3) The Imperium oppresses for the exact same reason. I can't believe I have to point this out but, you do realize, that the Imperium's justification for its oppression is also that 'it's for the good of mankind' and 'your own good'. It's no different than the Tau. Both factions simply are convicted of their ideologies and believe they are justified in oppression in the name of those ideologies.

**Grey Templar**

Anemone wrote:
But based on what? You're simply saying 'they are second class citizens' but what is this assertion based on? Give an example of it. For example where is it ever stated the Kroot are largely autonomous because of deception. How does that even work? Do the Tau permit the. More autonomy because they think they are more primitive? Is that the implication? It would seem incredibly odd for the Tau's attitude to be 'they appear to be primitive, let's allow them enormous autonomy' but then if they found out they were more advanced then at first thought to go 'oh, now let us strip them of their autonomy.

You are totally missing what I am saying.

The Tau think they have the Kroot under control, not autonomous, and integrated into the Empire. The Kroot are autonomous in secret.

Read the Tau codex and see how other alien races are integrated, and where they end up. If there was full integration we would see the "Tau Empire" be a Federation ruled by leaders drawn from multiple alien races. Instead its an Oligarchy ruled by the Tau, not just Tau in general a specific sub-species of Tau. There is no equality here. Its a dictatorship, and the Ethereals are the rulers.

**123ply**

Anemone: if you do leave the thread now, then I just have to say that I really appreciate how much you've contributed to it. Thank you. The thread really has gone off topic, and for me I could say thay it's because I've just been replying to other members of the forum and kind of actually forgot what my thread was even about.

And yeah, any reference, quotes, or books would also be much appreciated

**Anemone**

@Grey Templar: No one is disputing the Tau are dominant. As I have literally said on the last page memores hip in the a empire should not be construed as being akin to independence. But there is a vast chasm of difference between accepting the Empire as a polity with a racial hegemony and what you are asserting.

@123ply: Thank you, after class I will compile that list for you, I simply a, becoming tired of the fact that a faction can't win in its new release without the main focus being on how it should be wiped out. It tires me incredibly.

**123ply**

I know I know, seriously I wouldn't care if any other faction won a permanent victory against the guard, but its the fact the tau are constantly winning : taros, agrellan, prefectia, aand more I can't remember is what's bothering me

Oh and thanks, I'll be looking forward to them :p

**Grey Templar**

Anemone wrote:
@Grey Templar: No one is disputing the Tau are dominant. As I have literally said on the last page memores hip in the a empire should not be construed as being akin to independence. But there is a vast chasm of difference between accepting the Empire as a polity with a racial hegemony and what you are asserting.

So you freely admit that non-Tau are 2nd class citizens?

If one race is the one that is in-charge of everything, that by definition makes everyone else second class citizens, or slaves.

**Furyou Miko**

Grey Templar wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, human captured planets are still mostly run by humans, at least for the day-to-day stuff, so they probably have similar watch procedures.

I highly doubt it.

There might be human "liaisons" who get to sit in on committee meetings, but the human populace will have zero real power. Only a token presence to make them feel included.

Acording to Imperial Armour 3, Tarosa was ruled by a human Governor while it was under the control of the Tau - the only thing that had really changed was where the tithes went, and the occasional blue guy loitering around the place. In this case, I think it's the Tau leaving a planet that works and had joined the Empire voluntarily to do its thing. No point bringing in the beige jackboots when the black ones that are there are loyal enough anyway.

**Anemone**

@123ply: Like I've said I think its an overreaction, strip away Agrellan and Prefectia and the Tau have nothing, but I've repeated it before so I'm going to stop myself there.

As for the list;

Spoiler:

@Grey Templar: I cannot believe I am being forced to do this but:

If, by your definition, a racial group which is a member of a polity does not constitute part of its highest leadership translates into said racial group being 2nd class citizens, then, in numerous countries all over the earth numerous ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious minority groups are 2nd class citizens. No women, to my knowledge are found amongst the High Lords of Terra, thus, women are 2nd class citizens. So the definition you are using is really untenable. Particularly since you are issuing a ridiculously stark requirement; "if not what I assert then only 2nd class citizen and slave are options" as if in the field of political representation and diverse interaction the realities will ever boil down into so simple a binary choice.

Additionally the Tau are not 'in charge of everything' they often delegate roles, leadership and decision making to other species because, putting aside all talk of morality, it is pragmatic. Hence the Kroot Shapers are trusted to make the decisions for the Kroot, in Skilltaker a human is asked by a female Shas'o not to hesitate to correct her or inform her about Space Marines as he would know more about them than she does. A blanket claim such as 'the Tau control and rule everything' not only isn't true but is impractical. Most species which join the Empire need minimal adjustment to become members. After compliance the Tau have, normally, allowed them to usually go on as is because there is no pragmatic use in trying to change things. We only have two thorough examples of integration into the Empire; Kroot and Humans, and in both cases the Tau consistently delegate ruler ship and control to the existing command structures of those races because it is pragmatic to do so. Generally speaking the Tau involved themselves only when military threat to the planet arises or when they believe their is dissent on the planet. Despite you assertions otherwise there is still no textual evidence that the Tau consider the Kroot 'tamed' or that the Kroot believe that they are in some way preventing their own enslavement via 'deception'. There is a wealth of textual information concerning the generally good relations between these two species as a result of their cooperation. Nowhere, that I know of, is it said in a book or codex that the Kroot 'conceal their autonomy from the Tau and that only by this concealment are they autonomous'.

Fact of History: Throughout history and till now in virtually all polities one linguistic group or ethnic group or racial group or cultural group or any other of a series of identification mechanisms we employ as sapient entities have dominated the economic, social and militant power structures within a polity. The Tau Empire are no different, no better, than that. But if having a dominant racial, linguistic, ethnic, cultural or religious group within a polity with more than one such groups (and all polities have more than one such groups) automatically relegates all other groups to the status of 2nd Class Citizens well, then, 2nd Class Citizens exist everywhere and are often near indistinguishable from regular citizens except that members of their group are not found dominating political, social, economic and military structures. I, for example, am then a 2nd Class Citizen of my country by the definition you are advancing. To be clear again, I wholly disagree with your definition, I am simply demonstrating where it leads.

Ultimately there are two answers to your question;

1) This answer stems from a point of view as we the players and our environment; alien races within the Empire are no more 2nd Class citizens than any ethnic, cultural, linguistic or religious minority is in many countries around out world simply because they do not wield large degrees of influence within the polity they inhabit (usually by merit of their relative small populations to other groups within the polity).

2) If we use the definition of 2nd Class Citizens you are using, which to make clear I and most people in the field of geopolitics and historical analysis would balk at, then yes the alien races of the Tau Empire are 2nd Class Citizens. As are Women in the Imperium and, to be honest, a wealth of minority groups not represented amongst the High Lords of Terra who are virtually all depicted as white men. Indeed to take your point to its, actually, furthest extent since the Imperium in truth recognizes the Emperor as its sole ruler and master then anyone not of the same gender or ethnic background as the Emperor is now a 2nd Class citizen since they are not part of the leadership circle.

With that I am done with this discussion on this thread, Grey Templar, if you wish to further dispute this that is fine with me but contact me via PM then since I am not going to continue to talk about topics unrelated to the battle of Prefectia here. This is the internet, as I said, I expect any conversation of this sort to end dismally here. I'll take part but not by derailing this thread any further than the 'Tau should be extinguished' narrative already has done so.

**Mr Morden**

No women, to my knowledge are found amongst the High Lords of Terra, thus, women are 2nd class citizens

This is not really true - men or women can be High Lords - indeed there is a High Lord that can only be taken by women: Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas

The Master of the Adeptus Administratum - can be male or female
The Representative of the Inquisition - can be male or female
The Ecclesiarch of the Adeptus Ministorum - can be male or female
The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus - can be male or female (indeed probably also neither or both)
The Grand Provost Marshal of the Adeptus Arbites - can be male or female
The Paternoval Envoy of the Navigators - although the patanova is male its not clear his envoy must be.
The Master of the Astronomican - can be male or female
The Grand Master of the Officio Assassinorum - can be male or female
The Master of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica - can be male or female
Lord Commander of the Segmentum Solar - can be male or female
Lord Commander Militant of the Imperial Guard - can be male or female
Lord High Admiral of the Imperial Navy - can be male or female
Cardinal(s) of the Holy Synod of Terra - unclear
Abbess Sanctorum of the Adepta Sororitas - must be female
Captain-General of the Adeptus Custodes - must be male
Chancellor of the Estate Imperium - can be male or female
Speaker for the Chartist Captains (representative of the Imperium's merchants) - can be male or female

**Anemone**

Then we shall content ourselves instead with the lack of representation of any diverse ethnic groups. As I said there are no female High Lords that I am 'aware' of. That the Abbess Sanctorum is one is a good point, something I didn't know, but doesn't change the overall point of the argument. Besides by the same logic planets in the Tau Empire are, as demonstrated, ruled by humans and Kroot. As an aside is it textually confirmed somewhere that these positions are open to both genders, is it written down in a codex or novel, or are you extrapolating or assuming so? It'd be important to me to know if it is somewhere written down in the canon.

Besides, as said, the Emperor is considered the sole technical ruler of the Imperium, the High Lords are described as ruling 'on his behalf' and thus to continue the point that means the Emperor alone inhabits the top ruling circle. Not that I even know why we are still on this point. We're not even going into the expanded point that the Imperium kills the non-humans and thus doesn't grant them any sort of citizenship status. But to repeat what I said before, if you want to continue this discussion with me that's fine, but I'm not going to continue it on here please, I'm tired of derailing this.

Putting that aside I'm interested on the matter of the High Lords mostly because in every instance of them I have read, or seen, them depicted they have been universally white males. If you can I'd love some links to the current female High Lords, not historical ones, and where there's information on them, it would be interesting to read. The only one I knew of was Sabrina who went missing all the way back in White Dwarf 293. Oh, also, after reading up, I see that the Sister of Battle's position is not considered one of the 'permanent' position but a potential option for one of the three optional ones.

**Mr Morden**

Anemone wrote:
Then we shall content ourselves instead with the lack of representation of any diverse ethnic groups. As I said there are no female High Lords that I am 'aware' of. That the Abbess Sanctorum is one is a good point, something I didn't know, but doesn't change the overall point of the argument. Besides by the same logic planets in the Tau Empire are, as demonstrated, ruled by humans and Kroot. As an aside is it textually confirmed somewhere that these positions are open to both genders, is it written down in a codex or novel, or are you extrapolating or assuming so? It'd be important to me to know if it is somewhere written down in the canon.

Besides, as said, the Emperor is considered the sole technical ruler of the Imperium, the High Lords are described as ruling 'on his behalf' and thus to continue the point that means the Emperor alone inhabits the top ruling circle. Not that I even know why we are still on this point. We're not even going into the expanded point that the Imperium kills the non-humans and thus doesn't grant them any sort of citizenship status. But to repeat what I said before, if you want to continue this discussion with me that's fine, but I'm not going to continue it on here please, I'm tired of derailing this.

Putting that aside I'm interested on the matter of the High Lords mostly because in every instance of them I have read, or seen, them depicted they have been universally white males. If you can I'd love some links to the current female High Lords, not historical ones, and where there's information on them, it would be interesting to read. The only one I knew of was Sabrina who went missing all the way back in White Dwarf 293. Oh, also, after reading up, I see that the Sister of Battle's position is not considered one of the 'permanent' position but a potential option for one of the three optional ones.

There does seem to be very little informaiton on the current High Lords (or even the historical ones) - I'll have a look when finish work (on lunch at the moment) but IIRc the original Council of Terra was both men and women as well

I think there is a major difference between the game fluff/art and the wider fluff in things like the novels in which the power can be held by men or women - which fits my view of the Imperium - they don't care about your sex/colopur of skin only that your are human, worship the Emperor etc.

The Abbess is currenly not held as the previous incumbant dispaeared and until they find her body they can't appoint a new one.............

**Anemone**

Honestly there is no need, or if you wish to PM them to me instead. Its very interesting a topic but I'd rather not have it here. The important point is that distinctions exist, whether their skin, sex, beliefs, language, cultural practice, phenotype, religion or otherwise, you will always have distinction and said groups are deprived. People easily assign more importance to, say, sex and skin colour, despite persecution on any grounds; language, culture, beliefs, religion, ideology and such being no different. What people are willing to persecute for will always differ, but persecution and marginalization remains persecution and marginalization no matter who practises it.

On the specific note of sex-relations within the Imperium itself, well, as I said I'd rather discuss that in its own thread, but to make a cursory comment I've always found that what does exist in the novels is relatively dismal. The Tempestus Scion Codex confirms that females of the Prefectia have very limited options compared to the males and cannot become Scions or Commissars, for example, in the latest Codex, and the ratio of important female inquisitors to male ones is literally about 7:1. Though no doubt theoretically one could argue that somewhere out their exists the opposite trend I've very rarely seen it presented. In almost every novel of 40k I have read women rarely occupy the highest offices and many planets describe them as still being used akin to chattel and breeding stock by noble families. A bit disappointingly, for example, the major Knight families with characterization all seem to practise male primogeniture and only permit Males to operate Knights; at the very least I know of no female Knights of House Terryn or who appeared within the Sanctus Reach Campaign. In addition, in the Horus Heresy, barring Roboute's mother I've not seen many women who occupy the highest level of administrative office across the Imperium, alongside Malcador and such, but as I've said previously I was disappointed with how 'the same' the Great Crusade was to the Imperium I've already read about. I had expected, and hoped for, a radically different schematic and protocol.

But lets ignore that, as I said, I don't want to discuss it here. Its fine to use your own interpretation of the fluff to determine what the universe looks like in your opinion, personally the contradictory and inconsistent nature of the fluff of 40k requires it to an extent, and I too pick those pieces in such mechanisms that make the narrative most interesting and consistent to me to forge a coherent story. The problem is that, on the matter of diversity, I'd generally like to see more of it before I ascribe to it. Space Marines seem to be overwhelmingly white, the Guard seem so too, Sisters of Battle are almost universally racially homogenous and the Scions in their Codex share this trait. Its fun to imagine diversity, and certainly I won't argue against it, but its also true that I have a hard time swallowing the concept of 'parity' in this regard when I look at the composition of the Imperium's command structure; from the important Chapter Masters of Marneus, Logan, Dante and Azrael to people like Malcador, Yarrick, Creed, Macharius and Celestine. Generally groups divergent from this trend tend to be liminal or considered niche-like. Even the White Scars in the Horus Heresy have their 'otherness' as part of their nature.

But now I'm really off track, apologies, if you'd like to say something about this I don't mind, but rather just PM me something than continue a conversation here, I'm already feeling guilty about the stuff I put above.

**Co'tor Shas**

Furyou Miko wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
AFAIK, human captured planets are still mostly run by humans, at least for the day-to-day stuff, so they probably have similar watch procedures.

I highly doubt it.

There might be human "liaisons" who get to sit in on committee meetings, but the human populace will have zero real power. Only a token presence to make them feel included.

Acording to Imperial Armour 3, Tarosa was ruled by a human Governor while it was under the control of the Tau - the only thing that had really changed was where the tithes went, and the occasional blue guy loitering around the place. In this case, I think it's the Tau leaving a planet that works and had joined the Empire voluntarily to do its thing. No point bringing in the beige jackboots when the black ones that are there are loyal enough anyway.

That's one of the better descriptions I have heard in a while.

**Grey Templar**

Anemone wrote:

@Grey Templar: I cannot believe I am being forced to do this but:

If, by your definition, a racial group which is a member of a polity does not constitute part of its highest leadership translates into said racial group being 2nd class citizens, then, in numerous countries all over the earth numerous ethnic, cultural, linguistic and religious minority groups are 2nd class citizens. No women, to my knowledge are found amongst the High Lords of Terra, thus, women are 2nd class citizens. So the definition you are using is really untenable. Particularly since you are issuing a ridiculously stark requirement; "if not what I assert then only 2nd class citizen and slave are options" as if in the field of political representation and diverse interaction the realities will ever boil down into so simple a binary choice.

You are incorrectly using the word "race" as it applies to 40k. Race is not the same in our modern world as it is in 40k. In the modern world, it refers to some arbitrary separation based on skin color or other physical features. In 40k it refers to different species.

As to the meat of this argument, you are again missing what I am saying. Its not the lack of membership, its lack of representation. If every race could vote for representation within the Empire then wouldn't be 2nd class citizens. Granted the Tau themselves don't get to vote, and I suppose technically any Tau not a member of the Ethereal class would be a 2nd class citizen as well.

And yes it really does boil down to something quite binary. Non-tau have no say in how the Empire is run, of course to be fair neither do most Tau, and zero chance of ever getting into a position to do so. At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".

Fact of History: Throughout history and till now in virtually all polities one linguistic group or ethnic group or racial group or cultural group or any other of a series of identification mechanisms we employ as sapient entities have dominated the economic, social and militant power structures within a polity. The Tau Empire are no different, no better, than that. But if having a dominant racial, linguistic, ethnic, cultural or religious group within a polity with more than one such groups (and all polities have more than one such groups) automatically relegates all other groups to the status of 2nd Class Citizens well, then, 2nd Class Citizens exist everywhere and are often near indistinguishable from regular citizens except that members of their group are not found dominating political, social, economic and military structures. I, for example, am then a 2nd Class Citizen of my country by the definition you are advancing. To be clear again, I wholly disagree with your definition, I am simply demonstrating where it leads.

Incorrect. You are not a 2nd class citizen if you have all the same rights and potential opportunities as everyone else, and have a say in the government.

A dominant ethic majority doesn't mean other groups a 2nd class citizens, what makes them 2nd class citizens is if the capabilities of those citizens are restricted by the government/law in some way. In the Tau Empire that is most certainly the case. In modern western society that is most definitely not the case. In the Imperium, its a pure meritocracy.

**Co'tor Shas**

It depends on what you mean by upward mobility. They tau advancement system (rank based upon experience and skill) provides plenty of upward mobility. Sure they can never get into a empire-wise leadership position, but neither can tau who are not in the ethereal caste.

**Grey Templar**

Co'tor Shas wrote:
It depends on what you mean by upward mobility. They tau advancement system (rank based upon experience and skill) provides plenty of upward mobility. Sure they can never get into a empire-wise leadership position, but neither can tau who are not in the ethereal caste.

Just because not all Tau have the opportunity doesn't mean that humans/kroot/etc... aren't be oppressed as well. And my assertion is just that the Tau system is not in any way better than what the Imperium offers, from a human perspective. The Tau just have honey on forked tongues.

**Co'tor Shas**

Grey Templar wrote:
Co'tor Shas wrote:
It depends on what you mean by upward mobility. They tau advancement system (rank based upon experience and skill) provides plenty of upward mobility. Sure they can never get into a empire-wise leadership position, but neither can tau who are not in the ethereal caste.

Just because not all Tau have the opportunity doesn't mean that humans/kroot/etc... aren't be oppressed as well. And my assertion is just that the Tau system is not in any way better than what the Imperium offers, from a human perspective. The Tau just have honey on forked tongues.

From what we have seen, however, they are not. And quality of living is supposed to go up for most humans joining the empire, so there's that. Are they on par with tau? Not exactly (the phrase used is "first among equals", or, to use the term proper, primus inter pares). Are they oppressed and treated as second class citzens? No more than your average tau and no, respectively.

**Anemone**

@Grey Templar: As I said, if you want to continue this I'll do so by PM's. Otherwise I'm not going to bother, I don't need too, you make points like the 'the Imperium is a pure meritocracy'. As if the fluff isn't literally littered with examples which are the exact opposite. As if all non-humans and many abhumans aren't automatically disqualified from said system by death. Additionally you are choosing to employ a differentiation between species in terms of alien races and internal differences between a species. I make no distinction nor is there an objective requirement to do so. Differences inter and infra-species are equally valid and interesting. That's just so factually incorrect that I'm not going to bother with continuing since there's no need too. Want to continue it then PM me but I'm not going to continue a pointless derailing conversation here. That you cannot perceive the obvious material and civil rights differences between what is depicted textually as being experienced by a human in the Tau Empire and a human in the imperium is fine, it doesn't interest me if that is how you enjoy the narrative have it, so if you wish to discuss it further with me I'll not do it where it simply distracts from the real conversation. Good night.

**Mr Morden**

At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".

Is that actually true? - a lot of the Imperium is arranged around feudal structures and "old boy" networks? The Guard and Navy are prime examples of this with often very highly stratified class barriers and ceilings for those not born into wealth and power. In fact one of the notable things about the Inquisition is that you can potentially rise in the way you describe.

In the Imperium, its a pure meritocracy: Advancement in such a system is based on performance measured through examination and/or demonstrated achievement in the field where it is implemented.

In the Imperium - who and what your parents are/were is likely to be just as important as your abilities and your abilities - or lack of them certainly do not automatically bar you from high position?

The Mechanicum is a bit different but it has its own internal ranking, classes and political choices and I certainly would not say its a meritocracy?

**Grey Templar**

Mr Morden wrote:
At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".

Is that actually true? - a lot of the Imperium is arranged around feudal structures and "old boy" networks? The Guard and Navy are prime examples of this with often very highly stratified class barriers and ceilings for those not born into wealth and power. In fact one of the notable things about the Inquisition is that you can potentially rise in the way you describe.

It varies by world to world of course. But the Imperium itself doesn't care for social standing or your class. You need to distinguish between the local government and the Imperium.

But there are examples everyone of even the lowest of the low rocketing to the highest positions. Creed was a street urchin on Cadia. Joining the military is one of the best ways to improve your standing, if you survive the insane casualty rates and have some skills.

In the mechanicus, if you show aptitude for the rites of the machine god you'll get promoted, and practically speaking you can achieve immortality. Even the Fabricator General on Mars was once a lowly human serf, thousands of years ago. Of course you might just as easily screw up, and thats as easily a death sentence or no chance of future promotion. No 2nd chances for sure. "Serf 10047 has shown a 2% increase in productivity--->Promotion? Serf 10047 incorrectly carried the 7th decimal in incident report HJ45-09 resulting in a loss of 4% efficiency for the cycle's production. Promotion Denied!"

**Mr Morden**

Grey Templar wrote:
Mr Morden wrote:
At least in the Imperium, anybody can rise through the ranks. So as far as humans are concerned, the Imperium has much more upward mobility. In the Tau empire your position and rank is predetermined, you have no say in what you get to do because its all "For the Greater Good".

Is that actually true? - a lot of the Imperium is arranged around feudal structures and "old boy" networks? The Guard and Navy are prime examples of this with often very highly stratified class barriers and ceilings for those not born into wealth and power. In fact one of the notable things about the Inquisition is that you can potentially rise in the way you describe.

It varies by world to world of course. But the Imperium itself doesn't care for social standing or your class. You need to distinguish between the local government and the Imperium.

But there are examples everyone of even the lowest of the low rocketing to the highest positions. Creed was a street urchin on Cadia. Joining the military is one of the best ways to improve your standing, if you survive the insane casualty rates and have some skills.

In the mechanicus, if you show aptitude for the rites of the machine god you'll get promoted, and practically speaking you can achieve immortality. Even the Fabricator General on Mars was once a lowly human serf, thousands of years ago. Of course you might just as easily screw up, and thats as easily a death sentence or no chance of future promotion. No 2nd chances for sure. "Serf 10047 has shown a 2% increase in productivity--->Promotion? Serf 10047 incorrectly carried the 7th decimal in incident report HJ45-09 resulting in a loss of 4% efficiency for the cycle's production. Promotion Denied!"

No not just worlds - as I mentioned the Guard and the Navy (purely Imperial) operate social structures that can deermine your place in the orgnaisation purely based on who you are and who you know. Yes some rise through the ranks but others wlak straight into a high rank based n their family ancestry - Imperial Governorships have absolutely noting to do with merit but are usually hereditary.

Class is important in the Imperium - its a quasi feudal system - well sort of with other stuff as well - class is not everything but it matters

**Co'tor Shas**

I should point out, that is literally how the tau advancement system works. You advance through he ranks, purely by how well you do, and how much experience you have. Everyone starts at the very bottom, and has to work their way to the top. No short cuts, no loops holes. No matter who you are, you advance the same way.

**Grey Templar**

They aren't mutually exclusive you know. Except with the Tau there is an absolute hard cap. You get this advancement tree, and nothing else. Its not even, you can choose from these trees. nope, its you get this tree because of your birth.

In the Imperium, if you have the right skills and put in the effort you can achieve anything. It might be easier for some poeple, but thats hardly strange.

**Co'tor Shas**

That hard cap being "O" rank, the highest possible rank. And then can be brought up to different leadership positions above that, such as control of a sept's military command, or being head of a expansionary push. I'm unsure what you are getting at.

As far as the tree system, it's not just caste, they are literally different sub-species. A air caste member could not do the job of a fire caste at anywhere close to the same level. Different bone and muscle structures. And all 4 castes are equal in every way.

As far as the imperium's social mobility, it's not anywhere as close to what you seem to think it is. Advancement of any kind is hard fought, especially when you will often not have any way to learn the skills to advance.

**Warboss Gorhack**

Really, it comes down to will and resources committed.

As long as the IOM has it's attention split and the Tau are not the Tau will continue to win. If the Tau end up fighting a two-front war (against, say, the Imperium and an Ork Waaagh) things get evened up and life becomes a lot dicier for the Tau.

For the Tau any defensive war with the Imperium is a struggle for survival. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Tau are an existential threat to the Imperium. A fight for survival focuses the mind wonderfully; the Imperium doesn't have that against the Tau.

The Tau are a flexible and innovative people who do not fear research, development and employment of new technology. Given time they can develop and deploy hard counters for anything the Imperium can employ. Not so the Imperium. However...

... Should the Tau face a multi front war, or should the Imperium catch a break and decide to focus against the Tau the Tau are in for a very, very bad time. They just have the manpower or resources of an Imperial Sector, and the IOM has a significant advantage in their warp drives and Navigators over the Tau's slower and shorter ranged faster than light travel. Plus the Imperium has plenty of experience annihilating Xenos pocket empires to draw on.

Play for time, Tau. Time is on your side. Play for time and don't become such a threat that High Lords of Terra decide you've got to go, NOW.

My two cents.

**123ply**

I'm really digging those quotes, Anemone. It's funny because I've wanted to pick up the Damocles Anthology and read Black Leviathan, I hears that story had some interesting battles in it.

And yes, the Imperium's divided attention is the Tau's best friend. Considering the scale of the IoM's borders, it makes sense though if the Imperium can't commit too much resourced to fight the Tau. I've been thinking about it and the only titan that the Tau I think have seen is the Warhound, I don't remember even reaver being used against them. Considering the death of the RGS chapter master, and that the Tau have gained the attention of the humans, it will be no surprise when the tau start seeing reavers and warlords, and maybe imperators one of the Imperium's next crusade's.

**Co'tor Shas**

That'll make the AX-1-0 (and the new tau'nar) even more useful. There are hints at a tau vs admech IA, so we might get that relatively soon.