Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I actually remember reading somewhere that the Tau have weaker bone density than humans.
Either way, Mont'ka is out soon, so I guess this question will finally he answered
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/22 16:53:49
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that? And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
Those stated that they were physilogicaly worse at CC than humans (which I agree with), not weaker, unless I missed something?
Edit: basically, I want a source. They probably are weaker than humans (as they are shorter), but I just want to know if this is one of these accepted fanon things, or a written canon things. I'm weird like that.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/22 21:39:19
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
Those stated that they were physilogicaly worse at CC than humans (which I agree with), not weaker, unless I missed something?
Edit: basically, I want a source. They probably are weaker than humans (as they are shorter), but I just want to know if this is one of these accepted fanon things, or a written canon things. I'm weird like that.
The literally just cited the Codex as saying that the Tau are physically weaker, though they have better endurance.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that? And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Ehm, did you just ignore the 3 previous posts pointing out the weaknesses in Tau physiology that make them weaker than humans? Seriously?
Those stated that they were physilogicaly worse at CC than humans (which I agree with), not weaker, unless I missed something?
Edit: basically, I want a source. They probably are weaker than humans (as they are shorter), but I just want to know if this is one of these accepted fanon things, or a written canon things. I'm weird like that.
The literally just cited the Codex as saying that the Tau are physically weaker, though they have better endurance.
No, she said they train for endurance, not power. There's a difference between "is stronger because of training" and "is stronger because of physiological differences. And then some entirely reasonable reasons why they may be physically weaker (which I think make sense), but again, not stated canon. After I stated that, GT mentioned the 4th edition codex (assuming that's what he meant by, and I said I don't remember anything like that and will go check. I haven't yet because I can't, for the life of me, remember where I put it. Although I may have scans of it on my computer somewhere.
Edit: also, keep in mind, I only looked at their posts after I posted the reply, and then only briefly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/23 03:35:07
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Actually the treading isn't the problem. Its riveted armor which means most imperial tanks would have less protection than a WWII tank. Either way, I am more forgiving to the Imperium which art style stays uniform with the setting than Tau which is a failed attempt to fuse Gundam based anime with a western art theme that in no way jives.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
They constantly fall back. Kauyon is a style of warfare where the enemy lures his opponent with faked retreats, unit baiting (that works in squad based engagements but Cadres and companies are too big), and faking a weakness in their battle lines. The issue is Kauyon isn't just unrealistic but idiotic as is Mont'ka. To put it to you bluntly the Tau style of warfare is so dumb that you have to be either a person that likes blatant fanfiction or you really dislike the idea of at least maintaining some sort of accurate military engagement. In Kauyon, Sternshield's major style of warfare was to engage and then withdraw forces hoping to lure his foe into a trap. His men were skilled at faking being overwhelmed and would retreat in a way that made his foes believe they had the upper hand. Problem with that is it doesn't work. When you fall back all you are doing is giving ground to enemy forces who are going to seize the territory and take better positions to shoot your forces. There is a reason that the US Army will only retreat at max twice in an engagement. Now you can withdraw to more defensible positions but a withdraw has to be thought out, and should never be done in some dumb idea to lure your enemy into a trap because guess what happens if your opponent walks into that trap and wins. You can ask the Republican Guard that question. Imperial Warfare is basically WWII tactics while the space marines tend to fight like US Marines while Tau is made up garbage. Tit for tat style engagement "aka holding stuff back to counter attack with" doesn't exist. Bait and Lure tactics do not work in any type of warfare save medieval warfare. I have never been in a meeting where we sat talking about sending in a unit, having it engage, and then bringing in another unit when the enemy commits. I have been involved in a Pincer attack where my company engaged the Republican Guard head on while two other companies slammed into their flanks.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
Where is the Imperium so bogged down? The Imperium is an empire of over a million worlds and in the fluff is gaining more territory than it is losing. The biggest event was the Thousand world wars which in an empire of over a million worlds is a drop in the bucket. From Kauyon the Tau only survived not because the Imperium couldn't devote resources but because the Imperium forgot about them. Also where does it say that the fire warrior is trained better than your average Guardsmen? Cadians are raised from birth to be soldiers. By 5 a child can field strip a gun and by their mid teens will see combat in white shield units. There is nothing that denotes the Tau fire Warriors are better than a Guardsmen, they are better armed but hey if your argument is better tech means you win than we all should be speaking german right now. Also do not cop an attitude because your faction fights unrealistically and you are unable to articulate an intelligent response. Either make a viable comment or be quiet. Falling back is unrealistic and if you are going to write fluff about a war keep to the basics.. if the writers do not know the basics of war than they should not be writing fluff about war.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Again, if you are going to write about warfare than your writers should know how warfare works. So your argument holds no water as the past writers did atleast try to keep the tactics and strats on a WWII level. Once the Tau were released it became Anime in a western fiction. Also, 40k has been incredibly realistic when it comes to space combat where commanders have to plan their attacks based on firing solutions minutes in advance. You are making a straw man argument which if you want your faction to be the most poorly written of the bunch that is fine with me.
Also since you seem to lack knowledge about your own faction let me educate you on the tau basics.
" Physical strength and size varies between the Tau castes with the Fire Caste being the strongest of their kind, roughly the size and slightly weaker than an average baseline human because the Tau homeworld has gravity slightly weaker than that of Terra."
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/11/23 04:41:10
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Actually the treading isn't the problem. Its riveted armor which means most imperial tanks would have less protection than a WWII tank. Either way, I am more forgiving to the Imperium which art style stays uniform with the setting than Tau which is a failed attempt to fuse Gundam based anime with a western art theme that in no way jives.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
They constantly fall back. Kauyon is a style of warfare where the enemy lures his opponent with faked retreats, unit baiting (that works in squad based engagements but Cadres and companies are too big), and faking a weakness in their battle lines. The issue is Kauyon isn't just unrealistic but idiotic as is Mont'ka. To put it to you bluntly the Tau style of warfare is so dumb that you have to be either a person that likes blatant fanfiction or you really dislike the idea of at least maintaining some sort of accurate military engagement. In Kauyon, Sternshield's major style of warfare was to engage and then withdraw forces hoping to lure his foe into a trap. His men were skilled at faking being overwhelmed and would retreat in a way that made his foes believe they had the upper hand. Problem with that is it doesn't work. When you fall back all you are doing is giving ground to enemy forces who are going to seize the territory and take better positions to shoot your forces. There is a reason that the US Army will only retreat at max twice in an engagement. Now you can withdraw to more defensible positions but a withdraw has to be thought out, and should never be done in some dumb idea to lure your enemy into a trap because guess what happens if your opponent walks into that trap and wins. You can ask the Republican Guard that question. Imperial Warfare is basically WWII tactics while the space marines tend to fight like US Marines while Tau is made up garbage. Tit for tat style engagement "aka holding stuff back to counter attack with" doesn't exist. Bait and Lure tactics do not work in any type of warfare save medieval warfare. I have never been in a meeting where we sat talking about sending in a unit, having it engage, and then bringing in another unit when the enemy commits. I have been involved in a Pincer attack where my company engaged the Republican Guard head on while two other companies slammed into their flanks.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
Where is the Imperium so bogged down? The Imperium is an empire of over a million worlds and in the fluff is gaining more territory than it is losing. The biggest event was the Thousand world wars which in an empire of over a million worlds is a drop in the bucket. From Kauyon the Tau only survived not because the Imperium couldn't devote resources but because the Imperium forgot about them. Also where does it say that the fire warrior is trained better than your average Guardsmen? Cadians are raised from birth to be soldiers. By 5 a child can field strip a gun and by their mid teens will see combat in white shield units. There is nothing that denotes the Tau fire Warriors are better than a Guardsmen, they are better armed but hey if your argument is better tech means you win than we all should be speaking german right now. Also do not cop an attitude because your faction fights unrealistically and you are unable to articulate an intelligent response. Either make a viable comment or be quiet. Falling back is unrealistic and if you are going to write fluff about a war keep to the basics.. if the writers do not know the basics of war than they should not be writing fluff about war.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Again, if you are going to write about warfare than your writers should know how warfare works. So your argument holds no water as the past writers did atleast try to keep the tactics and strats on a WWII level. Once the Tau were released it became Anime in a western fiction. Also, 40k has been incredibly realistic when it comes to space combat where commanders have to plan their attacks based on firing solutions minutes in advance. You are making a straw man argument which if you want your faction to be the most poorly written of the bunch that is fine with me.
Also since you seem to lack knowledge about your own faction let me educate you on the tau basics.
" Physical strength and size varies between the Tau castes with the Fire Caste being the strongest of their kind, roughly the size and slightly weaker than an average baseline human because the Tau homeworld has gravity slightly weaker than that of Terra."
Actually, the tau acknowledges the fact that they cannot be always losing ground thus, the tidewall and stormsurge are created. The tidewall moved, leaving the attackers unable to capture anything and using the tidewall to launch a counter attack as well. And also the stormsurge are created just because the tau knows sometimes they have to stay their ground. The previous way they fought was because they were hunters, and like you said, its pretty medieval/primitive. So after fighting the imperium they decided to create new tech and change their way of warfare to reflect the killing blow and patient hunter.
And the imperium is bogged down in the previous fluff, that is why they have to retract their troops fighting over damocles to fight the nids threat, but their priorities are so great that just because a chapter master is killed they decided to send alot more troops to fight the tau.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Actually the treading isn't the problem. Its riveted armor which means most imperial tanks would have less protection than a WWII tank. Either way, I am more forgiving to the Imperium which art style stays uniform with the setting than Tau which is a failed attempt to fuse Gundam based anime with a western art theme that in no way jives.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
They constantly fall back. Kauyon is a style of warfare where the enemy lures his opponent with faked retreats, unit baiting (that works in squad based engagements but Cadres and companies are too big), and faking a weakness in their battle lines. The issue is Kauyon isn't just unrealistic but idiotic as is Mont'ka. To put it to you bluntly the Tau style of warfare is so dumb that you have to be either a person that likes blatant fanfiction or you really dislike the idea of at least maintaining some sort of accurate military engagement. In Kauyon, Sternshield's major style of warfare was to engage and then withdraw forces hoping to lure his foe into a trap. His men were skilled at faking being overwhelmed and would retreat in a way that made his foes believe they had the upper hand. Problem with that is it doesn't work. When you fall back all you are doing is giving ground to enemy forces who are going to seize the territory and take better positions to shoot your forces. There is a reason that the US Army will only retreat at max twice in an engagement. Now you can withdraw to more defensible positions but a withdraw has to be thought out, and should never be done in some dumb idea to lure your enemy into a trap because guess what happens if your opponent walks into that trap and wins. You can ask the Republican Guard that question. Imperial Warfare is basically WWII tactics while the space marines tend to fight like US Marines while Tau is made up garbage. Tit for tat style engagement "aka holding stuff back to counter attack with" doesn't exist. Bait and Lure tactics do not work in any type of warfare save medieval warfare. I have never been in a meeting where we sat talking about sending in a unit, having it engage, and then bringing in another unit when the enemy commits. I have been involved in a Pincer attack where my company engaged the Republican Guard head on while two other companies slammed into their flanks.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
Where is the Imperium so bogged down? The Imperium is an empire of over a million worlds and in the fluff is gaining more territory than it is losing. The biggest event was the Thousand world wars which in an empire of over a million worlds is a drop in the bucket. From Kauyon the Tau only survived not because the Imperium couldn't devote resources but because the Imperium forgot about them. Also where does it say that the fire warrior is trained better than your average Guardsmen? Cadians are raised from birth to be soldiers. By 5 a child can field strip a gun and by their mid teens will see combat in white shield units. There is nothing that denotes the Tau fire Warriors are better than a Guardsmen, they are better armed but hey if your argument is better tech means you win than we all should be speaking german right now. Also do not cop an attitude because your faction fights unrealistically and you are unable to articulate an intelligent response. Either make a viable comment or be quiet. Falling back is unrealistic and if you are going to write fluff about a war keep to the basics.. if the writers do not know the basics of war than they should not be writing fluff about war.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Again, if you are going to write about warfare than your writers should know how warfare works. So your argument holds no water as the past writers did atleast try to keep the tactics and strats on a WWII level. Once the Tau were released it became Anime in a western fiction. Also, 40k has been incredibly realistic when it comes to space combat where commanders have to plan their attacks based on firing solutions minutes in advance. You are making a straw man argument which if you want your faction to be the most poorly written of the bunch that is fine with me.
Also since you seem to lack knowledge about your own faction let me educate you on the tau basics.
" Physical strength and size varies between the Tau castes with the Fire Caste being the strongest of their kind, roughly the size and slightly weaker than an average baseline human because the Tau homeworld has gravity slightly weaker than that of Terra."
Actually, the tau acknowledges the fact that they cannot be always losing ground thus, the tidewall and stormsurge are created. The tidewall moved, leaving the attackers unable to capture anything and using the tidewall to launch a counter attack as well. And also the stormsurge are created just because the tau knows sometimes they have to stay their ground. The previous way they fought was because they were hunters, and like you said, its pretty medieval/primitive. So after fighting the imperium they decided to create new tech and change their way of warfare to reflect the killing blow and patient hunter.
And the imperium is bogged down in the previous fluff, that is why they have to retract their troops fighting over damocles to fight the nids threat, but their priorities are so great that just because a chapter master is killed they decided to send alot more troops to fight the tau.
The Tidal Wall was created in reaction to the crushing defeat they suffered on Voltaris. It is laughable, depending on its speed the best thing to do would be to move around them but the problem with Kauyon was that the Tau suffered no Orbital bombardment. I mean its hard to read Kauyon and then read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade where the Imperial fleets were bombarding enemy positions to ash. Also, no the imperium rated the Tau as a low threat and hence they prioritized other battles such as the Tyranids. You have to understand that 18 regiments, a demi legio, and some space marine chapters slammed through the Tau empire only to hear about the major threat of the Tyranids... after that it states the Imperium literally forgot. Now the war between the Tau and the Imperium is on not just for killing a chapter master but because they were broadcasting their victories and word reached Terra.. pg 73 of Kauyon.
I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why, of course; you can't let such a morale-devastating action go unpunished (the Angels of Death are literally worshiped, after all).
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
So I guess we've figured the reason why humans are better cqb fighters :
Humans have a larger muscles mass, have stronger bone density, and just have faster reflexes/ hand eye coordination. Right?
Well anyways, I predicted ssomewhere I'm this thread that the next book would finally feature the IG as the saviors of the Imperium, not the other way around. Most narratives have the IG in the first book, then have space marines save the day In the second. I'm just glad warzone damocles doesn't follow that trend. Now I'm just hoping to have the Militarium Tempestus play a vital role in Mont'ka.
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/24 01:22:34
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
123ply wrote: So I guess we've figured the reason why humans are better cqb fighters :
Humans have a larger muscles mass, have stronger bone density, and just have faster reflexes/ hand eye coordination. Right?
Well anyways, I predicted ssomewhere I'm this thread that the next book would finally feature the IG as the saviors of the Imperium, not the other way around. Most narratives have the IG in the first book, then have space marines save the day In the second. I'm just glad warzone damocles doesn't follow that trend. Now I'm just hoping to have the Militarium Tempestus play a vital role in Mont'ka.
Even Kauyon book had the imperium hold the fort as the space marines retreated
To be honest, I feel space marine takes up too much credit away from the imperial guard. And when space marines do stupid things, its out of necessity, or they are "badass" enough to do it, but when other races like tau and imperium do a tactic or strategy they were trained for people think its stupid.
Hopefully mont'ka is going to be turning this around with farsight destroying the marines due to the fact that he knows that they transfer their gene seed from the dead, and thus making the humbler, more reliable IG to make things right.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
Oh it's a source, but nobody has really given it. Which codex? And a page number or even section? Even better, just quote it. I'm not denying that it can't be the case, I'd just like to see it.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
Oh it's a source, but nobody has really given it. Which codex? And a page number or even section? Even better, just quote it. I'm not denying that it can't be the case, I'd just like to see it.
wELL, it sure as hell ain't the Tau Codex, you know, the source of Tau fluff.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Co'tor Shas wrote: Well... AFAIK, it's only air caste that have low bone density, which helps them cope with extreme Gs/acceleration (somehow ). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
*sigh* right, because the codex isn't source enough...
Oh it's a source, but nobody has really given it. Which codex? And a page number or even section? Even better, just quote it. I'm not denying that it can't be the case, I'd just like to see it.
wELL, it sure as hell ain't the Tau Codex, you know, the source of Tau fluff.
I know, that's what I was asking for, which tau codex. We have 4 of them.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
Adrik wrote: How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar?
Essentially, because the Tau move their armies with Mantas and Orcas which move many times the speed of sound. Considering Shadowsuns force was stated to have possessed 47 mantas ! and 20 orcas they could redeploy to other side of the planet in almost no time at all if they needed to. Once Tau have their boots on the ground they are slower than eldar for sure, but once they mount up in their mantas and orcas in terms of raw speed they have them beat.
As a side note, the supplement mentioned the Tau had 47 mantas, and yet we never hear about them making an appearance in even a single battle... You think they would be pretty damned significant in the war considering they are basically titan level strong (if titan's could move at mach 5 speeds). Maybe the manta crews had a drinking contest with the crews of the imperial navy and they all passed out and got really hungover which is why neither did anything for the duration of the supplement. Though it's probably just bad writing...
Adrik wrote: How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar?
Essentially, because the Tau move their armies with Mantas and Orcas which move many times the speed of sound. Considering Shadowsuns force was stated to have possessed 47 mantas ! and 20 orcas they could redeploy to other side of the planet in almost no time at all if they needed to. Once Tau have their boots on the ground they are slower than eldar for sure, but once they mount up in their mantas and orcas in terms of raw speed they have them beat.
As a side note, the supplement mentioned the Tau had 47 mantas, and yet we never hear about them making an appearance in even a single battle... You think they would be pretty damned significant in the war considering they are basically titan level strong (if titan's could move at mach 5 speeds). Maybe the manta crews had a drinking contest with the crews of the imperial navy and they all passed out and got really hungover which is why neither did anything for the duration of the supplement. Though it's probably just bad writing...
Yeah and the Imperium deployed entire Knight Households and full Imperial Guard Regiments in their own heavy lifters in exactly the same way and to the apparent supprise of the Tau. They dropped at least one superheav lifter in to evacuate the Knights - burning may Tau suits with their engines...............
Mantas are not just the Tau transport / defence against Titans but also a major part of their Navy's void defence - they would have been sorely needed to guard their warships on their runs into the area as they were apparently terrified of the Imperial Navy (who as you say did nothing - not even provide air cover) so its likely that both the Manta's and the Imperial Navy pilots were dueling or on void patrols against each other.
Dark Eldar and Eldar vehicles are as quick or quicker than Manta's - all of their vehicles! Plus the Eldar have their own Superheavy Air/Void Craft to counter the Mantas - and Orcas are not designed to actually fight.
Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yep near total - the book specifically says the Tau naval forces would not enegage the Imperail fleet who are described as a "terror to fight". They had to make fast attack runs into the area to try and drop in supplies and reinforcements....
Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting.
Because thats what happened - Shadowsun designed the entire planetry conflict as a trap - something that the Astartes only saw too late - she thought much bigger than their usual enemies and played on in particular the White Scars desire for vengeance - Shrike says so himself and indeed he grudgingly admires her for it. However the Tau still do not understand the scale of their enemy - they think that the Raven Guard Chapter Master is the king of the Space Marines and that his death will throw the Imperium into confusion
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/25 10:22:16
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Yeah and the Imperium deployed entire Knight Households and full Imperial Guard Regiments in their own heavy lifters in exactly the same way and to the apparent supprise of the Tau. They dropped at least one superheav lifter in to evacuate the Knights - burning may Tau suits with their engines...............
Yes, at least they make an appearance, not the manta's though.
Mantas are not just the Tau transport / defence against Titans but also a major part of their Navy's void defence - they would have been sorely needed to guard their warships on their runs into the area as they were apparently terrified of the Imperial Navy (who as you say did nothing - not even provide air cover) so its likely that both the Manta's and the Imperial Navy pilots were dueling or on void patrols against each other.
The tau are also stated to have deployed 4 custodian class carriers, 11 protector class warships, 4 emissary envoy ships, 14 kroot warspheres, and 11 nicassar/demiurg warships. Which is a fairly sizable navy already which many of the tau ships would already posses their own complement of manta's specifically for this purpose.
Dark Eldar and Eldar vehicles are as quick or quicker than Manta's - all of their vehicles!
Their flyers are faster than mantas, but not their tanks and raiders (fast though they are), not by a long margin.
If the Mantas had been used in the planetary battle -it woudl have taken away from the Big new suits that GW are selling
That's not actually many Tau warships compared to allied vessels and it is very interesting to note the Nicassar - they are normally kept away............. I'll have to check if it says the Mantas are the complement of the warships or extra, the former seems likely.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Mr Morden wrote: If the Mantas had been used in the planetary battle -it woudl have taken away from the Big new suits that GW are selling
That's what I assumed.
That's not actually many Tau warships compared to allied vessels
Going over the Kauyon book, I can't see any listing of the imperial naval assets. But I assume this has to be the case.
and it is very interesting to note the Nicassar - they are normally kept away.............
Yeah you think the imperial psykers would have felt the presence of a race of psykers so strong that their ships don't have engines and weapons, instead relying on their immense warp powers for mobility and offense. Another ball dropped by the writers.
I'll have to check if it says the Mantas are the complement of the warships or extra, the former seems likely.
It doesn't actually say, but I assume it's the latter. You see have you ever wondered why in the fluff a few mantas can threaten and even destroy an imperial escort class vessel and yet somehow struggle with larger titans? The answer is that the mantas used as void interceptors are actually different than the planetary transports. Often colloquially referred to as devilrays, they are larger and have their transport capacity removed in place of larger power sources to power stronger weapons and superior shielding. So I doubt the 47 listed as drop ships are meant to be the ones used as void interceptors... Unless just more inconsistent bad GW writing, which is entirely possible.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/25 11:40:20
Sorry by Allied I meant non Tau, but Tau Empire Void assests - quite a armada compared to the actual Tau warships
I had not read that there was a different version of the Manta for void space action? is that recent as don't recal it from BFG?
re the Imperial Fleet size - zero mention apart from that its too big and powerful to risk the Tau void ships in direct confrontation especially suince they are the transport asests for the whole Dovar system and beyond
But then again although there are eight Astartes Chapters only two are named and apparently do anything Same with the Guard really.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
I had not read that there was a different version of the Manta for void space action? is that recent as don't recal it from BFG?
I used to play BFG religiously, haven't for awhile though. I believe if I'm not mistaken when FW released the Kor'Or'Vesh (the newer dedicated Tau void navy) rules it was touched on that sometime after the damocles crusade, the tau began to specialize their mantas to be more suited for their specific uses.
re the Imperial Fleet size - zero mention apart from that its too big and powerful to risk the Tau void ships in direct confrontation especially suince they are the transport asests for the whole Dovar system and beyond
But then again although there are eight Astartes Chapters only two are named and apparently do anything Same with the Guard really.
Yeah so far I have been disappointed with each and every campaign supplement. They have all been rather sloppy, inconsistent and sometimes completely nonsensical. Of course this is GW and I suppose I shouldn't expect Dostoyevsky level writing.
I like the format an awful lot - seperate fluff and rules - great.
Lots of really good artwork - although Shield of Baal was better - There are a couple of not so great ones this time.
The choice of what to give rules or focuss is patchy and not good.
They are trying to do the Forge World campaign books but even though its about the same price its not as good IMO.
I love stuf fin the fluff like the compostiion of the various forces - even down to the Water Caste stuff but they don't do enough of it or do both sides :(.
I'll have a look at the Taros campaign and see what it says about Mantas
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/25 17:38:32
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
). Larger muscle mass is, at this point, probable, as tau are physically smaller, but not confirmed (I'm still waiting for that source). And as they would probably would be using battlesuits to fight, it's not that important. As far as reflexes go, I don't think they are supposed to react slower than a human with similar training, or have worse hand/eye coordination. Their eyes are supposed to focus slower, but how much time difference that really is is questionable. Focusing times for the human eye are insignificant at short ranges, and probably will be for tau as well. Especially as, even if they are a big blurry shape, they are still a big blurry shape coming at you. It's not like they turn invisible or tau vision lags begin, or something. What the thing that hurts them is lack of training. They are a culture that abhors close quarters combat. They probably get some basic martial-arts style training (especially as that would mesh well with their style), but nothing advanced.
Same with the Guard really.
