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Psienesis wrote: As with any other single faction in the setting, if the Imperium were permitted to focus all of its resources against that target, that target would be Ended.
It is a fact of the setting, however, that the Imperium is never permitted to do such a thing.
However, if every other faction took a century or two off and just sat on their butts, and the Imperium realized this immediately and turned its attention to a single enemy, that enemy would be utterly and completely exterminated.
The sad thing is many races do that as well. Orks united will defeat humans. Necrons all awaken and united will also do it. Nids are already doing it. I'm sure chaos can do it as well.
The only ones that cannot do it are eldar and tau because both are small and even when united does not have the size to fight.
@dusara: If disliking those things and expressing a belief that every faction, as a playable faction in a totally fictional universe intended for real people to enjoy, is influential/important/effective/successful in its own right to its own standards and conditions makes me immature then, to be frank, I do not mind that sort of immaturity. It does not change, at large, anything of which I have said. If that is what you wish to call me then that is your choice. That is not to denigrate that there cannot be good arguments/valid points or such made within it. Of course those can exist even within the worst of argumentation processes, those two existences do not need to have a logical connexion to each other, so I'm not trying to say that nothing of value emerges. My point is simply that the overall direction of this thread has become (as kiwi pointed out) a series of biased comparisons performed by groups who already have in their mind the group they are going to support to the hilt regardless. Since it is based off a fictional property in which both groups being supported have been talked up/promoted/propagandised and advertised at differing times by the creators there is very unlikely to be a definitive answer (I am not even sure what the 'question' or the purpose of the comparisons is). However, with that being said, I am in no means preventing you from continuing, simply making clear by dislike and lack of enjoyment from the process of trying to diminish someone else's playable faction and their stake therein. That's not fun to me. At all. As I've said all the armies, to me, are cool and awesome. I've never felt the need to trumpet one or another as 'better' or 'higher' in terms of playability or importance. But, again, that's me.
@bleak: Agreed on both your points.
Regardless I don't feel like discussing on this thread anymore, we already have a likely answer to the question, so I'm taking a break to do something enjoyable instead. If you have any queries (or criticisms) to address to me rather please PM them to me. The direction is simply off putting to me. If other people want to do it, of course, that's their choice and that's fine. At the same time, though, I do not need to partake and if I'd prefer to not be involved I won't. I'll try to find something more to my tastes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/13 03:15:58
It's not immature to express an opinion, its immature to freak out every time somebody throws an insult around. People aren't nice. That's a fact of life; one that most people learn at a very early age and come to an understanding that it is simply not worth it to get pissy every time somebody says something flippantly disrespectful.
EDIT: this is OT, so I'm gonna stop discussing this
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/14 06:25:27
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: It's not immature to express an opinion, its immature to freak out every time somebody throws an insult around. People aren't nice. That's a fact of life; one that most people learn at a very early age and come to an understanding that it is simply not worth it to get pissy every time somebody says something flippantly disrespectful.
EDIT: this is OT, so I'm gonna stop discussing this
You may wish to read the forum rules if you want to continue to post here. "Just deal with the insults" is not in line with those rules.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
dusara217 wrote: It's not immature to express an opinion, its immature to freak out every time somebody throws an insult around. People aren't nice. That's a fact of life; one that most people learn at a very early age and come to an understanding that it is simply not worth it to get pissy every time somebody says something flippantly disrespectful.
EDIT: this is OT, so I'm gonna stop discussing this
You may wish to read the forum rules if you want to continue to post here. "Just deal with the insults" is not in line with those rules.
This is true. However, the only thing you will get for freaking out about insults is wasted time and negative emotions; neither of which are worth the effort.
But, seriously, I'm done talking about this. If you wish to continue the conversation, PM me
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/14 09:08:00
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: What exactly do the Tau have that's better than what the Imperium has (outside of their invisible Stealth Teams)?
Oh man where do I start...
At the infantry level, Tau make use of nano tech to produce their armor for light infantry. Nano tech involves AI and therefore cannot be achieved by the Imperium. Fio'tak is lighter and stronger than anything the imperial light infantry can produce.
For heavy infantry, Tau can produce armor that's equal to power armor (but much lighter), except the Tau equivalent turns invisible and accommodates heavier weapons.
On the weapons front, Pulse rifles are lighter than lasguns. And I needn't say anything about the firepower of Tau light infantry putting that of Imperial heavy infantry to shame, and at greater range.
Other tech includes:
-A built in telemetry monitor in each suit of Tau combat armor.
-The Tau wireless uplink that makes up their battle network, giving each soldier the sum of all battlefield intelligence.
-The use of markerlights which uses their battle net to triangulate target locations, allowing Fire Warriors to shoot accurately at targets they can't even see, by automatically calculating optimum firing trajectories and uploading a personalized holographic reticule to each soldier's helmet.
-Blacksun Filters.
-Advanced AI tech
-Rail weapon ballistics tech
Exploding shells are like flintlock rifles to the Tau. They used black power back when they were primitives. This fact trumps ALL Imperial heavy artillery and bolter tech.
I could go on and on. Point to any piece of imperial tech, excluding those requiring psychic power, and the Tau equivalent will be superior.
P.S. Directed at whomever was saying Tau have silly plot armor: I always laugh out loud when an imperial fan accuses the Tau of having annoying plot armor. The Imperium has the worst plot armor in the entire mythos. They inexplicably succeed on all fronts, against the odds, and with the most irritating arrogance. Space Marines should, by all accounts, be extinct. This is another subject I could rant on and on about.
You can't spell 'slaughter' without 'laughter'. By the time they scream... It's too late. DQ:70+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k94#-D+A++/areWD106R++T(R)DM+ Check my P&M blarg! - Ke'lshan Tau Fire Caste Contingent: Astartes Hunters
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
All of those things exist in the Imperium, in superior forms. The Imperium doesn't equip all their soldiers to that level though because 1) its way too expensive and 2) its unnecessary.
Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: All of those things exist in the Imperium, in superior forms. The Imperium doesn't equip all their soldiers to that level though because 1) its way too expensive and 2) its unnecessary.
Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Pretty much. A good example of this is in Fallout (I think it's a prudent comparison given the recent release of FO4), where the NCR goes against the Brotherhood of Steel. Initially, the BoS kick serious arse given their superior tech and training, but cannot handle the superior numbers and infrastructure of the NCR that allows them sustain losses at a rate that eventually wears down the BoS. The BoS are then largely forced into hiding (at least in their holdings of the Mojave and California) since they can't handle any further direct confrontations.
The Imperium is like the NCR in this sense, except x1000000000 of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/16 05:03:23
dusara217 wrote: What exactly do the Tau have that's better than what the Imperium has (outside of their invisible Stealth Teams)?
Oh man where do I start...
At the infantry level, Tau make use of nano tech to produce their armor for light infantry. Nano tech involves AI and therefore cannot be achieved by the Imperium. Fio'tak is lighter and stronger than anything the imperial light infantry can produce.
It's less that the Imperium can't make it and more that they won't. The AdMech has strict guidelines in place due to the War of the Iron Men, but they don't generally destroy STC Blueprints unless they've been corrupted by Chaos. Many of the Data-vaults on Forge Worlds contain STC Blueprints that haven't seen the light of day since the days of the Horus Heresy, and likely never will.
Also, Spyrer Hunting Rigs, anyone?
For heavy infantry, Tau can produce armor that's equal to power armor (but much lighter), except the Tau equivalent turns invisible and accommodates heavier weapons.
Tau Battlesuits are bulkier and heavier than standard Imperial Power Armour. Imperial Power Armour is more dextrous, though it isn't as powerful as the larger Tau Battlesuits. Key word here being "larger", as the strength-to-volume ratio isn't necessarily any greater with Tau exoskeletons than it is on Imperial exoskeletons.
On the weapons front, Pulse rifles are lighter than lasguns. And I needn't say anything about the firepower of Tau light infantry putting that of Imperial heavy infantry to shame, and at greater range.
Pulse Rifles vs. lasguns for standard infantry weapons, Lasguns win. For one simple reason: cheapness. The Lasgun is insanely easy to mass produce (and doesn't take many resources), and lasgun Power Cells can be recharged virtually anything that emits energy (that includes literally throwing a Power Cell into a camp fire). Whereas, Pulse Rifles are far more expensive and more difficult to maintain.
Pulse Rifles vs. Bolters: The issue here is that the Tabletop does not reflect the Fluff here. The Bolter is very much a shock 'n awe weapon. It literally blows you up from the inside. Who's going to want to fight when their buddy just exploded right next to them and showerd blood and gooey bits eveywhere? Oh, look, more 30 MM grenades flying at me from an Assault Rifle (not a direct parallel, but you get the picture)! Pulse Rifles are better at long range, and likely would make excellent weapons for the Astartes and similar organizations (the Inquisition and Rogue Traders undoubtedly already make use of it), but their simply not as durable as Bolters, nor do they have the shock 'n awe value.
Other tech includes:
-A built in telemetry monitor in each suit of Tau combat armor.
Power Armour has this, as well. Alongside pretty much any Imperial Armour that includes a HUD
-The Tau wireless uplink that makes up their battle network, giving each soldier the sum of all battlefield intelligence.
-The use of markerlights which uses their battle net to triangulate target locations, allowing Fire Warriors to shoot accurately at targets they can't even see, by automatically calculating optimum firing trajectories and uploading a personalized holographic reticule to each soldier's helmet.
This isn't beyond the ken of the AdMech at all; they have the tech, they just don't use it. It's basically just a targeting computer that interfaces with a transmitting device that is relaying information regarding the enemy's location.
-Blacksun Filters.
Auto-senses, anyone?
-Advanced AI tech
Imperium doesn't use this for a reason, yadda yadda yadda... Also, Spyrer Hunting Rigs, anyone?
-Rail weapon ballistics tech
Seriously? You honestly think that the Imperium doesn't have something as simple as a Magnetic Accelerator? Considering the fact that we have magnetic accelerator weapons today, I highly doubt that the Imperium is incapable of producing these.
Exploding shells are like flintlock rifles to the Tau. They used black power back when they were primitives. This fact trumps ALL Imperial heavy artillery and bolter tech.
Do you know anything about modern ballistics? We stopped using such crude materials as black powder in firearms more than a century ago. Modern firearms utilize guncotton, which is far cleaner and more powerful than black powder (though many muzzle-loader enthusiasts still like to use black powder firearms). The idea that they wouldn't have found an even more effective material in the next 23k+ years is utter ludicrous. Not only that, exploding shells apply to a very wide variety of weapons. That includes gyrojet weapons (like Bolters), standard ballistic weapons (like modern assault rifles), certain railweapons, even grenades and missiles (if you stretch the definition a little). Explosive ammunition isn't something that will just go away, it is highly effective for both killing and terrifying the foe.
I could go on and on. Point to any piece of imperial tech, excluding those requiring psychic power, and the Tau equivalent will be superior.
Really? How about Plasma Weaponry? How about Void Shields? How about Titans? How about the Rosarius? How about Power Swords? How about Magma Warheads? How about the Life-eater biological weapon? How about Cyclonic Torpedoes?
P.S. Directed at whomever was saying Tau have silly plot armor: I always laugh out loud when an imperial fan accuses the Tau of having annoying plot armor. The Imperium has the worst plot armor in the entire mythos.
I agree completely.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
I always find the best way to describe tau is higher average tech, lower maximum tech.
The imperium has (or has had) things far superior to everything to tau have. The question remains, how valuable/hard to produce/rare is it. What tau have over the imperium is that there tech is generally cheaper (to their sort of equivalent, i.e. pulse cheaper than bolt, not las) , safer (plasma tech is a great example, they purposely under-powered their plasma tech to stop if from overheating like imperial ones do, hence the slight power decrease), and more readily available than imperial equivalents.
Although, on the battlesuit front, that's because they are battlesuits, not armor. Fio'tak is described as lighter than ceramitite (I think that's how you spell it) for the same protections. If you want an example of armor, look at XV15 stealth armor (or the later XV25/22). It's about the same as PA in terms of protection and volume.
And on the virus front, read the FE supplement, they genetically engineered a virus that destroyed an entire splinter fleet within hours. And I wouldn't posit power swords as a mark of imperial technological dominance. They're good, but it's just a energy field around a blade. Nothing too fancy. The tau just don't to CC, so they don't have them (althogh there's on etheral weapon that's similar)
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Co'tor Shas wrote: I always find the best way to describe tau is higher average tech, lower maximum tech.
The imperium has (or has had) things far superior to everything to tau have. The question remains, how valuable/hard to produce/rare is it. What tau have over the imperium is that there tech is generally cheaper (to their sort of equivalent, i.e. pulse cheaper than bolt, not las) , safer (plasma tech is a great example, they purposely under-powered their plasma tech to stop if from overheating like imperial ones do, hence the slight power decrease), and more readily available than imperial equivalents.
Although, on the battlesuit front, that's because they are battlesuits, not armor. Fio'tak is described as lighter than ceramitite (I think that's how you spell it) for the same protections. If you want an example of armor, look at XV15 stealth armor (or the later XV25/22). It's about the same as PA in terms of protection and volume.
And on the virus front, read the FE supplement, they genetically engineered a virus that destroyed an entire splinter fleet within hours. And I wouldn't posit power swords as a mark of imperial technological dominance. They're good, but it's just a energy field around a blade. Nothing too fancy. The tau just don't to CC, so they don't have them (althogh there's on etheral weapon that's similar)
Agreed with this. On the troop level they have higher tech compared to the imperium, and even if they had better tech in the past. that means they do not have the tech level now. The only better tech stuff that I can think of that they have now are titans and grav weapons, which is hinted very much that the tau are quickly overtaking.
And nobody knows about the virus because not many people read about the farsight fluff. Oh and why would you want a power sword when you can get fusion blades, which are way better and an available tech since arkunasha. Their widespread plasma proves the tau's technological level where they are as refined as they are practical as well.
Grey Templar wrote: Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Not really, because having 10,000 soldiers just means you have 10,000 corpses when the enemy deploys drops a tactical nuke on your horde of meatshields. Human wave attacks only work when the enemy is as primitive as most of the Imperium. Against Tau/Eldar/Necrons they only "work" because the Imperium has plot armor.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
There's a great little topic at the News and Rumours section about Warzone Damocles: Mont'ka. It's confirmed to be released in two weeks, and is going to include formation from the Imperial Guard and the Tau Empire from what I've seen so far. Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything... but at least the guard finally get someone with new formations.
So you men and women should go check it out. It's so gone severely off topic at some point but has a lot of interesting news if you are interested in the Warzone Damocles.
Grey Templar wrote: All of those things exist in the Imperium, in superior forms. The Imperium doesn't equip all their soldiers to that level though because 1) its way too expensive and 2) its unnecessary.
Its better to have 10,000 soldiers armed with lasguns, flak armor, and simpler equipment than it is to have 10 soldiers armed in power armor using plasma weaponry with sensors that can detect every living thing within 10 kilometers.
Pretty much. A good example of this is in Fallout (I think it's a prudent comparison given the recent release of FO4), where the NCR goes against the Brotherhood of Steel. Initially, the BoS kick serious arse given their superior tech and training, but cannot handle the superior numbers and infrastructure of the NCR that allows them sustain losses at a rate that eventually wears down the BoS. The BoS are then largely forced into hiding (at least in their holdings of the Mojave and California) since they can't handle any further direct confrontations.
The Imperium is like the NCR in this sense, except x1000000000 of course.
Did that conflict not happen around the New Vegas time line? I remember in the solar power plant in the Mojave, and NCR lady tells you that something super similar to that happens.
Also, Fio'tak. Is that the material used for battle suits or fire warrior armour? Cause if it's for the battle suits, then power armour it technically more sturdy and powerful. It's usually the crisis' shield generators that protect them from any harm. If that's the material used to make fire warrior combat armour, then I do remember reading somewhere that carapace armour is able to withstand more damage that fire warrior armour. Although it is heavier, but any soldier who uses it (Tempestuous Scions?) Perform the bulk of their training IN their armour, so it's like second skin to them. The fact that carapace is moulded to fit perfectly for each individual soldier also adds to prove that Imperial warriors in Carapace Armour are not bothered by the weight as they are so used to it.
IT'S like when you're a boxer. The boxing gloves are heavy as feth! But as you get used to fighting with them it starts to feel as if they are part of your you, or at least you are so used to wearing them that the weight no longer bothers you.
A Tempestuous Scion, if he ever had to perform in battle without his armour, would move freely like the wind!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/16 18:05:42
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/16 18:30:25
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything..
FFS no rules again ! What the FF are they playing at - still if the fluff is as good as last time for the Sororitas at least thats something!
What info do we have on this please
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/16 18:41:41
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything..
FFS no rules again ! What the FF are they playing at - still if the fluff is as good as last time for the Sororitas at least thats something!
Imperial guard formations have been confirmed! And if you look it up on Google, Warzone Mont'ka, you'll find a bunch of results on it.
So far for the guard, we're also getting g a kit for a tank commander and an updated enginseer. It's basically a leman russ with an Aquila on it and it comes with a techpriest. If the tank can be built as a demolished then I am in so much luck as I need a demolisher and a techpriest, so that's quite awesome. Unless the LR doesn't create the siege variants, then it's the perfect kit for me )))
123ply: Dataslate- 4/4/3/3/1/3/1/8/6+
Autopistol, Steel Extendo, Puma Hoodie
USRs: "Preferred Enemy: Xenos"
"Hatred: Xenos"
"Racist and Proud of it" - Gains fleshbane, rending, rage, counter-attack, and X2 strength and toughness when locked in combat with units not in the "Imperium of Man" faction.
Seems like it will also include the sisters of battle, but I believe it will be like Shield of Baal, where they play a role (A pretty major one st that ) but don't get any new rules or anything..
FFS no rules again ! What the FF are they playing at - still if the fluff is as good as last time for the Sororitas at least thats something!
Imperial guard formations have been confirmed! And if you look it up on Google, Warzone Mont'ka, you'll find a bunch of results on it.
So far for the guard, we're also getting g a kit for a tank commander and an updated enginseer. It's basically a leman russ with an Aquila on it and it comes with a techpriest. If the tank can be built as a demolished then I am in so much luck as I need a demolisher and a techpriest, so that's quite awesome. Unless the LR doesn't create the siege variants, then it's the perfect kit for me )))
Err ok thanks - wasn't the Guard I was actually hoping for Although still very tempted by the Blood Angels model
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
Chaos, I'm willing to bet in Mont'ka that the tau are expirmenting with the imperiums warp tech ignoring the safety precautions the imperium does and they open a warpgate/miniature eye of terror in the gulf. THen Chaos comes flooding through and chaos are the ones who take the gulf.
that'll humble the tau, to mess with tech they dont understand
that'll enrage the imperium and send the grey knights to deal with and shut the warpgate, and probably run into farsight and help each other shut the gate. in book 3.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/20 21:28:25
The thing that people always forget when arguing Tau Battlesuits is that with the exception of the reinforced Broadsides, the 'legs' on a battlesuit are little more than landing gear for between deployments.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
You would be right if you were talking about Coldstars but normal battle suits are basically jump infantry. They do walk and run through the battlefield and cannot fly.
No, Crisis Suits are jet pack infantry. They glide across the battlefield just off the ground, but are not capable of the kinds of speeds required to be a jetbike and lack the operational ceiling to be a flier.
It's obvious in the rules and on the models. Jetpack takes up about 40% of the thing's mass.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Tau have, in their own codex, been described as short, with no depth perception due to a lack of contracting irises (yes, I know), and a culture that abhors close combat, meaning that they only train for endurance and not power.
There's a good chance that a Tau would have an easier time of running a marathon than a human, especially in desert terrain, because they're a desert-adapted animal - which means good water retention, low food requirements and good balance - but in a sprint or arm-wrestling, the human has reach and size advantages.
Obviously this only really applies to Earth and Fire Tau, since the Water caste are designed for looks, not ability, and the air caste are very fragile due to low-G upbringings and hollow bones. They could well have a wicked right hook though, if they retain the advanced pectoral muscles required for gliding despite having lost their wing-flaps.
Of course, that's completely ignoring the fact that 'tall and spindly' is a really bad design for fighter pilots, who want to be small enough to fit comfortably in a cockpit, and solid enough to cope with high-g maneuvers, but the entire Tau race is badly designed and thought out on the part of GW in that way.
... and depth perception does not come from contracting irises. Grr.
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
Tau have, in their own codex, been described as short, with no depth perception due to a lack of contracting irises (yes, I know), and a culture that abhors close combat, meaning that they only train for endurance and not power.
There's a good chance that a Tau would have an easier time of running a marathon than a human, especially in desert terrain, because they're a desert-adapted animal - which means good water retention, low food requirements and good balance - but in a sprint or arm-wrestling, the human has reach and size advantages.
Obviously this only really applies to Earth and Fire Tau, since the Water caste are designed for looks, not ability, and the air caste are very fragile due to low-G upbringings and hollow bones. They could well have a wicked right hook though, if they retain the advanced pectoral muscles required for gliding despite having lost their wing-flaps.
Of course, that's completely ignoring the fact that 'tall and spindly' is a really bad design for fighter pilots, who want to be small enough to fit comfortably in a cockpit, and solid enough to cope with high-g maneuvers, but the entire Tau race is badly designed and thought out on the part of GW in that way.
... and depth perception does not come from contracting irises. Grr.
I believe it says the Tau home planet has slightly lower gravity than Earth and therefore the Tau are a little more slight. Firewarriors being the most athletic and heavily muscled of the 5 Castes. I picture the Tau/Human difference as that of a teenager who exercises vs. a grown man who exercises.
This entire point is not well thought out since gravity varies from planet to planet. ALL Imperial planets are higher gravity than ALL Tau planets?
As for eyesight, it states plainly that Tau vision is superior to a human's. They can see further, their focus is sharper, and they can see a broader spectrum of colors. I imagine some of the targeting lasers they employ are invisible to humans.
But with a broader spectrum comes a split second of extra adjusting their eyes have to make. This is never described as being a hindrance to combat performance. (Tau haters make up crap like that all the time.) They simply don't train in melee.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/22 15:43:37
You can't spell 'slaughter' without 'laughter'. By the time they scream... It's too late. DQ:70+S+++G++M+B+I+Pw40k94#-D+A++/areWD106R++T(R)DM+ Check my P&M blarg! - Ke'lshan Tau Fire Caste Contingent: Astartes Hunters
... and depth perception does not come from contracting irises. Grr.
Maybe GW should have made Tau cyclopean. It would make them look more alien while actually making sense why they would lack depth perception.
As I recall it wasn't a depth perception problem, it was that they cannot change the focus in the eyes quickly(which contracting irises would cause). Making their ability to switch from far off targets to close targets very poor. IE: If Mr Fire Warrior is looking at the far off enemy encampment but then suddenly he sees a blurr close and off to the right. He's gonna take a few seconds to adjust to the closer object, in which time he and his squad has been eviscerated by Raven Guard.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Co'tor Shas wrote: The point of reduced weight, it is allows them to me far more agile for their size, and to jetpack without hindrance (less power required).
And fio'tak is just for battlsuits. That's why XV15s are just as protective, but still about the size of combat armor. Ccombat armor is essentially more advanced carapace armor (i.e, more tech for them to acess, although the same level of protection).
You are forgetting that Tau Fire Warriors are supposed to be physically weaker than humans. Also, it really doesn't matter about bringing up their "light weight" armor when talking about their Battlesuits as the design of their ankles and feet would mean a Tau Battle Suit would not be able to land let alone walk. The Ankle joints are too thin and would be prone to snapping while the feet of the Tau Battle suits are too small and would end up having stability issues as they are basically walking on stilts. The biggest problem of a Tau battle suit would be soft earth where the narrow toe (it only walks on 1 of the three toes) of the Tau Battle Suit would ensure that if they landed on soft ground they would spear through it and get stuck. While traction issues would mean the suit is utterly worthless in moving without jet propulsion.
I hear "tau are weaker" but I'm unsure where that is from. Do you have a source for that?
And yes, they are badly designed, but so it every other thing in this game. Most imperial tanks can't get over any sort of uneven ground, and the way the gun is designed on
So, uh, lets talk about really why the Imperium would beat the tau? Numerical Superiority and the fact that the Tau style of warfare is actually incredibly inflexible and is completely vulnerable to massed Artillery and indirect artillery attacks.. While I have a fair grasp of tactical strategic warfare and how the concept of "fighting through space" is a strategic form of warfare where you are attempting to stretch out the opponent's supply lines... its totally not a logistical trap that can backfire with spectacular results (sarcasm) because when you give up ground you not are literally providing your enemy better positions to attack you from (you are giving your opponent a better position to kill you). Sorry, if I seem a little sarcastic its because reading Tau style warfare is blantaly apparent it was written by people who have no clue about warfare and for someone in my line of work it is maddening because it's like someone spitting on your profession.
It's not that tau don't hold any ground, it's that they don't trade ground for bodies. And there are more ways of war than just ky'uan and mont'ka, those are just the most common.
And yes, of course it's unrealistic, that what this game would be
The War in space would be where the Imperium would win and would be the major decider in the conflict. The Tau may have a a battle cruiser class that can go toe to toe with an Imperial battle cruiser however there is no evidence that the tau Korvattra is anywhere large enough to engage a Sector battle fleet or multiple sector battle fleets. Its logical to view that even the most advanced Tau warship will be completely outnumbered by Imperial counter parts of the same quality, not to mention the imperium has far larger classes that completely outclass the newest and most deadly of Tau warships. Also with the Imperium's Warp Travel and faster than light communications mean the Tau would soon find itself on a multifront war where they would never be able to define a line of battle because the Imperium could always strike where ever they wanted. In Kauyon, the Tau note that in space the Imperium ships are terrifying and that direct conflict is almost out of the question and so the Tau fleets attempt to avoid direct engagement unless they have numerical advantage. Also in line troops while the Tau have superior weapons their is no proof that a Tau fire warrior squad is better than an Imperial squad in discipline and training. In fact there is proof to the opposite as Human Auxillia of the Tau in the Warzone Damocles books note that fire warriors tend to break when the battle gets intense and they are prone to retreat when the enemy resistance intensifies. This means that Tau warriors are afraid to die and would most likely crumble when they meet stiff resistance. Another thing is the Tau FIre warriors penchant for running to cover when ambushed. This may seem like a no brainer but its actually incorrect. US marines when ambushed in a "far" assault stand ground and return fire, assessing the situation as they engage, while in a close ambush the Marines engage and move in as fast as possible. These tactics are proven and work and superior firepower isn't going to protect you when you turn your back and run behind cover while an enemy takes position and lights you up for not denying them position.
Yes, that is because tau are tiny, they could be easily crushed by the imperium's might, but the imperium is so bogged down it can't afford to. I think this has to be the thousandth time I've sad this at least.
And they are much better trained then your average conscript or guardsmen (a life to death training system will do that for you). And they have tau falling back if it gets too inense as a tactical move. Yes it's unrealistic, but this is not a reasilitc game. It never has been, so don't try and add realism and you'll be much happier.
The real strength of the Tau empire would be their battlesuits and infiltration suits. This would give issues but again this is nothing that superior numbers and good tactics cannot prevail against and by all accounts the Imperium is not like the Orks that mindlessly charge. The Tau's constant tit for tat way of engagement would make them incredibly predictable where an enemy's units would attack the tau units and hold ground instead of pursuing the tau they would subjecting tau forces to constant artillery barrages. Because the Tau always immediately attack the strongest target (which is kinda like video game wargamers) you would just bait them into attacking incredibly reinforced positions and just collapse on top of them. Artillery would be the greatest counter against the Tau, their use of LOS weaponry would be their biggest downfall. This is all just Astra Militarum and not taking into account the Skitarii, the space marines, knights, and Titans. Now it seems in Mon'tka the Tau have weather control which maybe the biggest BS as it shows writers are desperate to write a way for Tau to present issues. If the Imperium doesn't burn Agrellan to the ground with massive orbital bombardments then at that point the story won't be worth reading as writers aren't staying true to their own world.
And, again, it's because this is not a realistic game with realistic tactics. It's written by people who have probably never even used a gun or studied tactics.
The Tau are not very good in close combat, as they find the whole concept uncivilized.
Also, the rules for Tau make them seem smaller and weaker. Also, in the novels, the Tau just seem less capable in CQC in comparison to your average human.
Bad at CC=/=weak. That's what I'm getting at. There is nothing to suggest that tau are physiologically weaker. And the rules don't actually make them smaller or weaker, just bad at CC. That's what I'm getting at, there is a difference. Tau physiologically worse at CC (their eyes can't focus as fast), but it does not mean weaker. I'm relatively strong, but someone trained in martial arts, but is physically weaker than me could beat me like nothing. They are bad at CC, not because they are weak, but because they don't train. That's the point. It's just a minor annoyance of mine, but it is annoying. Tau are defiantly worse at CC, just not (necessarily) weaker.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
I am pretty sure the previous Tau codex went into depth about that Tau are physically weaker than humans. Not enough to make them Str2 instead of Str3 because the rules aren't granular enough.
For what its worth, in the FFGRPGs Tau are weaker than humans.
A Tau Fire Warrior has a Strength value of 30. A chaos Guardsmen has a Strength value of 35. A random human civilian is Strength 30.
So a Tau Fire Warrior, who has had training and conditioning, has the same strength as a random human civilian. And a human who has had training and conditioning is 15% stronger.
A Space Marine is Strength 65. So the difference between 30 and 65 is only one point on the 40k stat scale. Tau would have to be significantly weaker to have a difference in 40k.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/22 16:53:34
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
By the time they scream... It's too late. 
AM/IG - 122nd Terrax Guard: 2094/3000pts
Skitarii/Cult Mech: 1380/2000pts
Khorne Daemonkin - Host of the Nervous Knife: 1701/2000pts
Orks - Rampage Axez: 1753/2000pts 
