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Apologies, it wasn't my attention to kick off such a discussion, just a meandering.

As an overall point I'd normally say that fluff and crunch rarely intersect reliably and so shouldn't be used to judge each other. But I've also of late been so apathetic about the fluff that I hardly connect with it anymore. If we do use fluff to determine things it just means we'll always have the same answer so that drags me down.

As for the actual topic, to be honest, I think this thread has run its course in that department anyway. Since canonically the answer already exists that the Imperium is going to win there isn't a need for a discussion here anymore, as far as I understand it.

@jhe: Of course the Battleship did fade from usefulness, hence exactly why today it isn't utilized anymore as a predominant or viable military asset. An interesting parallel, I'd agree, but exactly the ability of a species like the Tau to engineer cheap masses of devices which endanger such a huge expenditure of time and resource easily can be seen as paralleling the diminishing role of the Battleship until it faded from military use.

 Peregrine wrote:
Why are we talking about game mechanics in a fluff thread about the best flyer? And, more importantly, why are we assuming that 40k game mechanics matter the most? For example, in Aeronautica Imperialis (the air combat game, which should presumably have the most accurate flyer stats) both the Thunderhawk's turbolaser and the Tigershark's railgun are ground attack weapons that can not be used against flyers.

Exactly. Both don't make much sense - the turbolaser is a concentrated laser beam and the railgun is a solid slug of metal being fired at mach 900. Both are easily usable against other aircraft and land vehicles alike. Just because the turbolaser creates an explosion when it strikes something doesn't change the fact that you can aim the beam the exact same way you aim the railgun.

Also

 Anemone wrote:

All I could ws warn him don't go looking for anything online virtually the entire online fanbase wants them squatted.

I haven't seen that... anywhere. Where the hell are you going where the majority of users want the Tau out of the game?

/tg/ has a lot of it, 1d4chan has its fair share of it, you see it here from time to time (but here is far better than /tg/ and the others, hence why I prefer it here) you frequently see it in comments on any site related to 40k if the comments turn to discussion of Xenos or Tau releases (Natfka and such). Warseer had a thread not so long, if I recall, about 'what would you change in 40k canon' and one not-uncommon suggestion was have Tau xenocided by the Imperium or eaten by the Tyranids.

But I did specify 'online' to make clear that it doesn't mean the majority of 'players' or 'users' do, simply that its a common enough sentiment (specifically online) as to be reoccurring. I'm sure the Tau have enough of a fanbase that they at the very least make enough money for GW to not eliminate them. Hence I'm talking about pervasive online sentiment mostly. /tg/ archives has a whole dump of it, if you want I can copy and send it over to you?

Before this thread closes or whatnot ' I just want to thank all the contributors by making this topic reach seven pages! I don't now how it happened but boy am I proud.

Oh and Warzone Kauoun? I heard some guy talking about it and he really made it seem
Like the tau made a humiliating victory against the human

 Anemone wrote:
On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.

But honestly Titans don't seem like the best Units to face Tau with exactly because of the fact that Tau can Mass-Produce a spacefighter with a Heavy Railgun. One cannot compare the amount of time and resources which the Tau Empire waste on squadrons of AX-10 Tigersharks to how long and exhaustive the process of creating new versions of the heavier Titans designations. Although I understand Forgeworld and GW's recent predilection with just giving the Tau bigger mechs the truth is that I'd have preferred if they stuck to the Tau's strengths of confronting the inane nature of their foes with more practical responses. An enormously lumbering terrestrial unit is far better engaged with large amounts of units which can remain a safe distance from it, move rapidly, but also have firepower sufficient to bring it down. Already with Battlesuits you have the logic being glimpsed; if virtually all armies you fight have large amounts of landlocked troops and combatants and virtually your entire army can move into the air and stay out of range, you have an incredible advantage. But big Mechs are popular, particularly most 40k fans seem to prefer big and lumbering to sleek, so I get why GW and Forgeworld focus on it since there's no doubting the popularity of the Tau'nar and such.

Regardless, as part of this conversation, I must say that I really just am finding it difficult to maintain an interest in 40k's fluff anymore. A game where one side virtually wins everything of significance ever is just not fun to me at all. If a playable faction ever just got totally removed or such or destroyed beyond recognition I'd probably stop; I have friends who play with all those different factions, I think they're all fun and interesting in their own way, and I'd rather see them actually contributing rather than endlessly playing second fiddle or dying. But that's me, hardly a popular opinion as I learnt on /tg/. There's just no fun or tension to be had when, like a predictable story or film, I can always guess the outcome.

The Tigershark isn't a problem. Titans never deploy without significant protection, including Skitarii legions. And almost certainly a significant Imperial Navy presence as well, which means lots of air cover. Titans never go to war by themselves, they are always part of a much larger force. They're like modern aircraft carriers, who always have a large attendant fleet. Skitarii are plenty well equipped to take down aircraft too. The only time a Titan would be without air and ground support is if those assets had been destroyed in a long protracted campaign. Which would also mean the enemy air support is also likely shot to pieces, especially the Tau who cannot afford to get stuck in wars of attrition. The Imperium is very good at forcing and winning wars of attrition, which happens to be Tau kryptonite.

Plus Warlord and Emperor Titans have plenty of weapons capable of engaging airborne targets. The Tigershark and Manta aren't exactly small targets either.

I honestly can't see the Tau getting destroyed by the Imperium. Primarily because whoever created the Tau won't let them get exterminated. Whether you believe the Necrons created the Tau (in which case nearby Tomb Worlds will come to the aid of the Tau and butcher the Imperial Crusade, should the need arise) or you believe that the Eldar did (in which case Harlequins and/or Craftworlds come to the aid of the Tau), there will be some major assistance for the Tau should the IoM reach the point where victory is assured.

Eventually we will win and crush the Imperium. Now Warhammer 51k? Maybe we would be on the defensive and fighting for survival then. While humans and space marines are like the Eldar. And the Eldar have only a single planet left. DE have a permanent rift incursion into their section of the webway. It would be an interesting time indeed. Would Farsight be alive? Or would we kick off Warhammer 51k with him dying? Our Immortal Tau Emperor dead at last. Ha. What upstart species would be our downfall I wonder?

Right now I'm just enjoying this victory so much.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Titans never deploy without significant protection, including Skitarii legions.

Except when they did deploy without sufficient protection to stop a Tigershark from killing a titan in one shot. Seriously, it doesn't make much sense to talk about how Tau aircraft are helpless against titans and their support when we have such a clear example of the exact opposite.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
Titans never deploy without significant protection, including Skitarii legions.

Except when they did deploy without sufficient protection to stop a Tigershark from killing a titan in one shot. Seriously, it doesn't make much sense to talk about how Tau aircraft are helpless against titans and their support when we have such a clear example of the exact opposite.

The situation is relevant but somewhat unusual IMO

The Imperium were getting desperate and finally managed to convince the small force of Mechanicum who had been grudgingly sent along (without their normal support troops etc) to field the 3 Scout Titans only supported by the Astartes and without proper air cover.

The two forces were devastating against the Tau ground forces (as Titans have been noted as being before) but the Tau had an ace in the whole which they fielded at just the right time and against exactly the right target .to test it - smallest Titan without adequate support.

The Taros campaign was a badly planned and poorly executed attempt to take a minor world - its quite possible it will happen again...................

Hopefully we will get a proper campaign book with a Tau/Mechancium war which would be pretty awesome to see / read and very different to the usual fare in so many ways.

Whether you believe the Necrons created the Tau (in which case nearby Tomb Worlds will come to the aid of the Tau and butcher the Imperial Crusade, should the need arise)

Necrons on nearby TW already awoke, saved a Tau world from the Nids and then slaughtered the entire Tau population who had turned out to welcome them as saviours.................. that Dynasty at least is no friends of the Tau.

I don't know it seems proper Tau/Mechancium war (at least what can be gleamed from the comments here) just means that the Tau die. Since, going by the comments, apparently when a Titan is deployed 'properly' it becomes invincible and destroys all Tau and only ever dies due to poor planning since it is otherwise untouchable. Personally that's not an interesting story to me if apparently it just needs to be deployed in the 'right' manner and instantly victory is assured.

I do agree with Peregrine on the matter of discussing the 'ideal' situation of a vehicle of war as if that is not something which of course is always true (if a vehicle is deployed in the correct fashion to maximize its strengths and with correct support to defend its weak points of course it will do well) isn't really that relevant here. I mean I'd assume its a self-evident truth.

Regardless its not like it changes any matters at large.

 Anemone wrote:
I don't know it seems proper Tau/Mechancium war (at least what can be gleamed from the comments here) just means that the Tau die. Since, going by the comments, apparently when a Titan is deployed 'properly' it becomes invincible and destroys all Tau and only ever dies due to poor planning since it is otherwise untouchable. Personally that's not an interesting story to me if apparently it just needs to be deployed in the 'right' manner and instantly victory is assured.

I do agree with Peregrine on the matter of discussing the 'ideal' situation of a vehicle of war as if that is not something which of course is always true (if a vehicle is deployed in the correct fashion to maximize its strengths and with correct support to defend its weak points of course it will do well) isn't really that relevant here. I mean I'd assume its a self-evident truth.

Regardless its not like it changes any matters at large.

no that's not was said - a lot of people were saying the opposite that now the Tau will be scything down Titans left right and centre with a couple of modified Tigersharks.

To me a full blown conflict would have the Tau facing the sheer weirdness of the Imperium with mad techno-science versus developing high tech.

Agreed re the fielding weapons of war but that works both ways - sometimes the Tau will not have air superiority for instance........

 Silverthorne wrote:
My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.

If you read the Tau Codex, you learn they had fought to a standstill but the Tau were being constantly reinforced. The Imperium had lost momentum and was losing the battle by attrition.
Eventually the Imperium's campaign would have been wiped out entirely, but only at great expense to the Tau. So when the Imperium begged permission to leave, the Tau allowed it. They had some recovering to do, as well as implementing changes to their military to combat the imperium more effectively in the future.

But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore

I find it odd that people are just now discovering why the Tau are such a horrifying threat. The speed at which they implement increasingly effective weapons and armor, coupled with the methodical way they expand is why I've always seen them as one of the largest threats in the galaxy. They innovate as quickly as Tyranids evolve. No other faction is even trying to compete in the arms race and battle suits are approaching Titan size.

Thats because nobody else needs to compete in the arms race. The Tau are playing billions of years of catchup and they're still way far behind.

Anemone wrote:I don't know it seems proper Tau/Mechancium war (at least what can be gleamed from the comments here) just means that the Tau die. Since, going by the comments, apparently when a Titan is deployed 'properly' it becomes invincible and destroys all Tau and only ever dies due to poor planning since it is otherwise untouchable. Personally that's not an interesting story to me if apparently it just needs to be deployed in the 'right' manner and instantly victory is assured.

I do agree with Peregrine on the matter of discussing the 'ideal' situation of a vehicle of war as if that is not something which of course is always true (if a vehicle is deployed in the correct fashion to maximize its strengths and with correct support to defend its weak points of course it will do well) isn't really that relevant here. I mean I'd assume its a self-evident truth.

Regardless its not like it changes any matters at large.

An "ideal" situation for a Titan is having a Battalion of Imperial Guard supporting it. Or a Cohort of Skitarii. Or pretty much any supporting units large enough to actually provide support (Space Marines simply aren't numerous enough for that kind of job). It's really a very simple job: if aircraft come aknockin', make sure the Titan has enough support to turn its guns upon the aircraft, if necessary. Plus, air support would be quite useful, as well, due to the fact that the Imperial Navy could essentially just drown the enemy fighters in Valkyries (or similar fighters) to keep them off of the Titans while the Titans wrecked face - however, air support would be a luxury, not a necessity. Also, do you really think that destroying a Warhound Titan signifies the Tau gutting any Titan Legii sent their way? Any Titan Legion sending any more than minimal strength is going to have, at the very least, Warlord Titans - which are vastly more a.)powerful and b.)durable (superior armour and Void Shielding) than Scou Titans (the type the Tau fans seem proud of killing).

Mr Morden wrote:

Whether you believe the Necrons created the Tau (in which case nearby Tomb Worlds will come to the aid of the Tau and butcher the Imperial Crusade, should the need arise)

Necrons on nearby TW already awoke, saved a Tau world from the Nids and then slaughtered the entire Tau population who had turned out to welcome them as saviours.................. that Dynasty at least is no friends of the Tau.

Yes, the Necrons are quite divided. My point, however, is that whatever Dynasty created the Tau (which clearly doesn't include the one that woke up post-Ethereals) won't let them die. Unless, of course, you believe the Eldar created the Tau, in which case, the Eldar won't let them die. Unless, of course, you believe that the Eldar have been dancing around the galaxy creating non-Warp-reflecting species left and right, in which case the Tau don't matter win or lose.

Archonate wrote:

 Silverthorne wrote:
My impression was the Imperium won the original Damocles campaign. The forces were recalled but absent the Tyranids attack, there wouldn't be any more Tau.

If you read the Tau Codex, you learn they had fought to a standstill but the Tau were being constantly reinforced. The Imperium had lost momentum and was losing the battle by attrition.
Eventually the Imperium's campaign would have been wiped out entirely, but only at great expense to the Tau. So when the Imperium begged permission to leave, the Tau allowed it. They had some recovering to do, as well as implementing changes to their military to combat the imperium more effectively in the future. Yes, the Imperium sent a vastly undermanned Crusade to do the job, with only token Astartes forces assisting, with a force of 3 Scout Titans being the best big guns supplied for them (this is miniscule). The fact that the Tau were winning is more due to the fact that the Crusade was a small one to begin with, tackling a threat that the Imperium hadn't yet grasped.

But that's just it. With the direction the Tau is going, it doesn't seem possible for even space marines to win anymore

I find it odd that people are just now discovering why the Tau are such a horrifying threat. The speed at which they implement increasingly effective weapons and armor, coupled with the methodical way they expand is why I've always seen them as one of the largest threats in the galaxy. They innovate as quickly as Tyranids evolve. No other faction is even trying to compete in the arms race and battle suits are approaching Titan size. People aren't "just now discovering" the Tau being a great threat. The fans have known this for years, but the Tau are only a dot on the map in comparison to the Imperium at large. The fact that they innovate so quickly is awesome, but all that that means is that they have the potential to become a major threat to the IoM; it isn't a guarentee. For instance, if the Imperium were actually able to muster a fully-manned Crusade with more than token squads of Astartes, full-blown Titan Legii, several dozen (or hundred) Regiments of Imperial Guard, and the Navy to match, they would curbstomp the Tau. The tragedy of the setting is that the Imperium has so many external threats that, were it to do so, it would be leaving itself vulnerable to a dozen other threats. The tragedy of the setting is that the Imperium is beset by so many enemies that it can't even defeat a player as minor as the Tau (which are meant to represent the many Xenos pocket empires dotting the Void).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Thats because nobody else needs to compete in the arms race. The Tau are playing billions of years of catchup and they're still way far behind.

Those billions of years of ketchup were played before the Imperium fought them. At this point Tau are leaving other races in the dust technologically. They're far enough ahead to compensate for their lack of mind weapons.

 dusara217 wrote:
An "ideal" situation for a Titan is having a Battalion of Imperial Guard supporting it.

Ok, so now you have to consider the Tau supporting elements as well. It's no longer a Tigershark against a titan, it's a Tigershark squadron with a squadron of Barracuda escorts and invisible stealth suits marking targets for over-the-horizon seeker missile strikes (which, unlike their tabletop version, certainly have a blast effect and can kill more than one guardsman at a time) to clear out any AA threats on the ground.

Plus, air support would be quite useful, as well, due to the fact that the Imperial Navy could essentially just drown the enemy fighters in Valkyries (or similar fighters) to keep them off of the Titans while the Titans wrecked face

The Valkyrie is not a fighter, at all. It's a transport helicopter with some rocket pods bolted to the wings to provide a little covering fire as the troops disembark. Its ability to engage fighters is purely a game mechanics thing in 40k. In reality the only thing a Valkyrie could do against a Barracuda or Tigershark is die.

Scout Titans (the type the Tau fans seem proud of killing).

It's not just that the Tau managed to kill a Warhound that's impressive, it's the fact that they killed it effortlessly. The Tigershark flew in and blew it away in one pass, like it was nothing more than another LRBT.

PS: the Manta is explicitly stated to be capable of matching the larger titan classes, it's just not as efficient or expendable as the Tigershark because of its other role as a transport.

It wasn't effortlessly. It was after a mad dash to desperately build something that could kill it, which they did by strapping the biggest gun they could onto a flyer. The Tigershark was really the text book example of an act of desperation, which they were lucky enough to have work. And it only worked because the Titans were not operating under normal conditions, like having air cover. Such an event is very very unlikely to occur again.

 Grey Templar wrote:
It wasn't effortlessly. It was after a mad dash to desperately build something that could kill it, which they did by strapping the biggest gun they could onto a flyer. The Tigershark was really the text book example of an act of desperation, which they were lucky enough to have work.

It was no such thing. It was a standard-issue aircraft undergoing its first combat testing on Taros. Sure, it used an existing airframe with new weapons (just like real-world aircraft often get upgrades) and was built to fill a need in the Tau army (just like any sensibly-designed unit), but it was not some kind of Imperial-style field modification with whatever guns are available bolted to whatever hull is available. After Taros the railgun Tigershark entered larger-scale production and started to see service as just another Tau unit.

And by "effortlessly" I mean that the Tigershark killed a Warhound in one pass. Within seconds of the Tigershark appearing the Warhound was a smoking wreck, which is about as long as a LRBT would have survived. That's not a battle, it's an execution.

And it only worked because the Titans were not operating under normal conditions, like having air cover. Such an event is very very unlikely to occur again.

Yeah, sure, whatever you say. Titans will always win because they will always have the perfect support for every possible situation and will never be vulnerable to attack, because titans are just special snowflakes like that.

How is it an act of desperation, at all? It was pretty rational decision. "Alright, we have a problem with titans, and we already know these guns are effective against them, but their current carriers (mantas) are not made for that kind of combat. Let's just stick them onto our other pre-existing platform (the tigershark) and use those.

And, again (which peregrine already pointed out and you conveniently ignored) who says the AX-1-0s are acting alone either? They will have support in the air and ground to take out the air cover. It's not going to be anywhere as easy as the last time, but not anywhere as difficult as you seem to think.

Edit: ninjed by peregrine

 Peregrine wrote:

Yeah, sure, whatever you say. Titans will always win because they will always have the perfect support for every possible situation and will never be vulnerable to attack, because titans are just special snowflakes like that.

I can say the same thing about the Tau. They're really the special snowflakes here with silly levels of plot armor. Literally the only thing which has kept them from getting crushed by various invasions is an unexplained Deus ex machina. The Tyranids should have eaten the Tau empire, literally nothing explains where they were able to beat them off. The same with the various Waaaghs that have invaded Tau space. Only the half-assed Daemocles Crusade has a reasonable explanation because it was half-assed in the first place(and it still kicked the Tau Empire's ass relative to the power they brought)

 Archonate wrote:

Those billions of years of ketchup were played before the Imperium fought them. At this point Tau are leaving other races in the dust technologically. They're far enough ahead to compensate for their lack of mind weapons.

Leaving who in the dust technologically? Orks? In most ways but that's nothing new. The Imperium? In some ways, yes. In other ways (especially in naval terms) they're not. I certainly disagree that they have sufficient technology to compensate a lack of mind weapons or defences. The Necrons have Null fields to protect them from Psychic attacks. The Tau have nothing. Any Psychically strong force fighting them should have a massive advantage.

Peregrine wrote:And by "effortlessly" I mean that the Tigershark killed a Warhound in one pass. Within seconds of the Tigershark appearing the Warhound was a smoking wreck, which is about as long as a LRBT would have survived. That's not a battle, it's an execution.

Though the Warhound would have probably been easily salvaged. It only had two small holes in it after all. How exactly that caused it to be knocked out of commission I don't know (probably killed the crew I guess).

Co'tor Shas wrote:And, again (which peregrine already pointed out and you conveniently ignored) who says the AX-1-0s are acting alone either? They will have support in the air and ground to take out the air cover. It's not going to be anywhere as easy as the last time, but not anywhere as difficult as you seem to think.

While you have a point I think it's a bit premature to assume that they'll render Titan's obsolete as Anemone suggested. I think a lot of times in these discussions people struggle to remember off hand between who said what after a while (I know I do).

How mass-producible they are is also up for debate. After all if their more powerful weapons are really easy to produce they'd presumably use more of them.

There are also differences in how people perceive the larger Titans in general. Some of the background and novels suggests they can level cities in minutes and are nigh-indestructible against any non-Titan or boarding party despite their tendency to be destroyed when they appear in novels.

Chaos wins plain and simple. Why? Because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!!!!

In all seriousness though, this debate is just an endless line of my team is better than yours. The entire argument is going to be biased towards your own views on the setting. If you're a Tau player, dislike the Imperium in general, or take the game as Humanity's dying moments then clearly the Tau took the worst the Imperium could throw and are ready to kick their ass even worse the next time. If you're a fan of the Imperium or view the game as Humanity enduring through everything then this is a temporary setback before humanity triumphs.

The setting is suppose to be up in the air. Maybe humanity falls, maybe it kicks utter ass. It's the 11:59 and everyone is waiting for midnight. The beauty of the setting is anything is possible. Except maybe a squat victory.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 Archonate wrote:

Those billions of years of ketchup were played before the Imperium fought them. At this point Tau are leaving other races in the dust technologically. They're far enough ahead to compensate for their lack of mind weapons.

Leaving who in the dust technologically? Orks? In most ways but that's nothing new. The Imperium? In some ways, yes. In other ways (especially in naval terms) they're not. I certainly disagree that they have sufficient technology to compensate a lack of mind weapons or defences. The Necrons have Null fields to protect them from Psychic attacks. The Tau have nothing. Any Psychically strong force fighting them should have a massive advantage.
What exactly do the Tau have that's better than what the Imperium has (outside of their invisible Stealth Teams)?

Peregrine wrote:And by "effortlessly" I mean that the Tigershark killed a Warhound in one pass. Within seconds of the Tigershark appearing the Warhound was a smoking wreck, which is about as long as a LRBT would have survived. That's not a battle, it's an execution.

Though the Warhound would have probably been easily salvaged. It only had two small holes in it after all. How exactly that caused it to be knocked out of commission I don't know (probably killed the crew I guess). Plus, the Warhound had the weaponry to take down the Tigershark; it likely didn't realize the danger it was in until after it had already been deep-sixed.

Co'tor Shas wrote:And, again (which peregrine already pointed out and you conveniently ignored) who says the AX-1-0s are acting alone either? They will have support in the air and ground to take out the air cover. It's not going to be anywhere as easy as the last time, but not anywhere as difficult as you seem to think.

While you have a point I think it's a bit premature to assume that they'll render Titan's obsolete as Anemone suggested. I think a lot of times in these discussions people struggle to remember off hand between who said what after a while (I know I do).And, again, you automagically assume that the Tau will have air superiority. Yes, the Tigersharks will have support (this is obvious af), but the Imperial Navy could easily [literally] drown them in Lightnings and Thunderbolts, should an actual Crusade be launched that had more than token offerings (like a mere 9 Regiments of IG).

How mass-producible they are is also up for debate. After all if their more powerful weapons are really easy to produce they'd presumably use more of them.

There are also differences in how people perceive the larger Titans in general. Some of the background and novels suggests they can level cities in minutes and are nigh-indestructible against any non-Titan or boarding party despite their tendency to be destroyed when they appear in novels.Titans are only as tough as the author wants them to be. If you're going by Mechanicum, so long as they have Skitarii support (or even Knight Titan support), they will auto-win due to the sheer firepower they can put out. This is what I like to go by, simply because the sheer firepower you see on them is incredible; more than enough to tackle virtually anything, so long as they don't have to worry about being boarded or overwhelmed by sheer numbers (both of which can be covered by adequate supporting units, such as Skitarii, who were specifically designed to support Titans), or hit by a titan-killer they didn't know the foe even had.

Great we're back at the 'my side always wins your side sucks you should have been killed and destroyed only plot armour saves you my faction makes total sense and is awesome while yours sucks and clearly never stood a chance whatever everything about your faction sucks even the stuff GW canonically states about them at the opening of every codex isn't true'. This is why the Fluff is so hard to enjoy now, it's just endless trying to argue 'my faction' is awesome and your 'faction' isn't. Particularly galling since it virtually always seems to come down to Imperium players saying the Nids should have eaten the Tau or a Waaagh destroyed them as if the idea of Empires moving from small to big is impossible and the only Superpowers must begin as superpowers.

@RandomEvilGuy: I didn't mean to suggest that Titans were obsolete. I was simply discussing the interesting historical parallel of a Titan and Battleship. Battleships, I meant, became obsolete. That doesn't mean Titans will. I prefer not to denigrate any whole army as 'pathetic and should have died ages ago with no chance of survival or achievement at all'. To me all factions have their strengths and weaknesses, the potential for growth or decay and a fighting chance. But that's me.

@kiwi: I agree wholeheartedly.

Not very many people will want to know because people like YOU who want to keep this game overpriced

So, considering that in YOUR PERFECT WORLD, if people dont spend $500+ on a single army, then they are gakky Warhammer players and dont deserve to play

So yeah, dont even fething ask questions on this board because its people like you that want to keep others out of this game because you dont want them in your little circle, in which you consider the entirety of the Warhammer community because you think that you are the king of them

ATXMILEY wrote:Not very many people will want to know because people like YOU who want to keep this game overpriced

So, considering that in YOUR PERFECT WORLD, if people dont spend $500+ on a single army, then they are gakky Warhammer players and dont deserve to play

So yeah, dont even fething ask questions on this board because its people like you that want to keep others out of this game because you dont want them in your little circle, in which you consider the entirety of the Warhammer community because you think that you are the king of them

Dude, it's an internet forum. Calm the feth down.

Anemone wrote:Great we're back at the 'my side always wins your side sucks you should have been killed and destroyed only plot armour saves you my faction makes total sense and is awesome while yours sucks and clearly never stood a chance whatever everything about your faction sucks even the stuff GW canonically states about them at the opening of every codex isn't true'. This is why the Fluff is so hard to enjoy now, it's just endless trying to argue 'my faction' is awesome and your 'faction' isn't. Particularly galling since it virtually always seems to come down to Imperium players saying the Nids should have eaten the Tau or a Waaagh destroyed them as if the idea of Empires moving from small to big is impossible and the only Superpowers must begin as superpowers.

@RandomEvilGuy: I didn't mean to suggest that Titans were obsolete. I was simply discussing the interesting historical parallel of a Titan and Battleship. Battleships, I meant, became obsolete. That doesn't mean Titans will. I prefer not to denigrate any whole army as 'pathetic and should have died ages ago with no chance of survival or achievement at all'. To me all factions have their strengths and weaknesses, the potential for growth or decay and a fighting chance. But that's me.

@kiwi: I agree wholeheartedly.

What? No, that's not what this has become at all. We're making genuine comparisons between fluff that has been posted. How the feth did you get that out of this? *scratches head*

@dusara: Arguing one side is better is literally what this has developed loved too, if you want examples we can simply refer to the statements says no that the Tyranid and Orks 'ought' to have destroyed the Tau by now, that a Titan 'auto-wins' if given the right support, that Tau technology is inferior to the Imperium's (an earlier poster implied inferior to virtually everyone), that the Tau suffered a 'half-assed' crusade which I don't recall being something GW in canon calling it, denigrate any success by one side as due to pure 'chance' and impossible to replicate or completely unrelated to their competency and such. The moment a discussion becomes simply denigrating one playable faction over and over and over again as being 'weak', 'pointless' or surviving only by 'plot armor' (as if that isn't true of everyone) I lose all hope for it.I can give more but, to be honest, once I see people bring up the 'Tau should be dead' argument it kills all interest and joy in me. Honestly I'll never see the fun in reducing another persons playable faction or their stake within it.

So yeah bickering over who's side is better and insisting one side survives by pure chance and the other by pure awesome is exactly the kind of discussion which reduces all my interest in fluff. I prefer to see all the factions as competent and capable in their own right. But that's me.

EDIT: As an aside, since it was bugging me since I remembered it differently, I just re-read Taros and the Warhounds are supported by a spearhead of Space Marines from the 2nd, 3rd and 6th Companies of the Raptors Chapter (a Chapter noted for fighting Tau) and elect a of a Cadian Regiment. We are told their are 'sprawling amounts of infantry and armour support' and the Forgeworld book itself (so canon) describes this as being a 'true combined army of the Imperium' and that this would be the first time the Tau on Taros fight a proper combined and supported Imperium force. So I really don't think you can say the Titans on Taros weren't 'supported' since the book says the exact opposite. Additionally I didn't read anywhere within the book that the deployment of the Titans was considered 'improper' or poorly thought out. Additionally the Tau fought full Titan legions on Dal'yth; the Legio Thanataris for example, and these were held in check by Manta's as part of the Tau plan.

I hate doing this, really I do, this discussion grates at me, but I can't stand trying to denigrate any one faction as being utterly impotent and irrelevant. But I do this to myself I should just stop reading it, there's really no other solution, everyone knows how Mont'ka will end because no Narrative Supplement ever ends differently. I really should just quit. This is a game for ALL players, regardless of faction, to enjoy. That means their faction not being utterly irrelevant or tangential. I don't think ANY faction should have died/been destroyed at all. But that's just me.

 Anemone wrote:
@dusara: Arguing one side is better is literally what this has developed loved too, if you want examples we can simply refer to the statements says no that the Tyranid and Orks 'ought' to have destroyed the Tau by now, that a Titan 'auto-wins' if given the right support, that Tau technology is inferior to the Imperium's (an earlier poster implied inferior to virtually everyone), that the Tau suffered a 'half-assed' crusade which I don't recall being something GW in canon calling it, denigrate any success by one side as due to pure 'chance' and impossible to replicate or completely unrelated to their competency and such. The moment a discussion becomes simply denigrating one playable faction over and over and over again as being 'weak', 'pointless' or surviving only by 'plot armor' (as if that isn't true of everyone) I lose all hope for it.I can give more but, to be honest, once I see people bring up the 'Tau should be dead' argument it kills all interest and joy in me. Honestly I'll never see the fun in reducing another persons playable faction or their stake within it.

So yeah bickering over who's side is better and insisting one side survives by pure chance and the other by pure awesome is exactly the kind of discussion which reduces all my interest in fluff. I prefer to see all the factions as competent and capable in their own right. But that's me.

EDIT: As an aside, since it was bugging me since I remembered it differently, I just re-read Taros and the Warhounds are supported by a spearhead of Space Marines from the 2nd, 3rd and 6th Companies of the Raptors Chapter (a Chapter noted for fighting Tau) and elect a of a Cadian Regiment. We are told their are 'sprawling amounts of infantry and armour support' and the Forgeworld book itself (so canon) describes this as being a 'true combined army of the Imperium' and that this would be the first time the Tau on Taros fight a proper combined and supported Imperium force. So I really don't think you can say the Titans on Taros weren't 'supported' since the book says the exact opposite. Additionally I didn't read anywhere within the book that the deployment of the Titans was considered 'improper' or poorly thought out. Additionally the Tau fought full Titan legions on Dal'yth; the Legio Thanataris for example, and these were held in check by Manta's as part of the Tau plan.

I hate doing this, really I do, this discussion grates at me, but I can't stand trying to denigrate any one faction as being utterly impotent and irrelevant. But I do this to myself I should just stop reading it, there's really no other solution, everyone knows how Mont'ka will end because no Narrative Supplement ever ends differently. I really should just quit. This is a game for ALL players, regardless of faction, to enjoy. That means their faction not being utterly irrelevant or tangential. I don't think ANY faction should have died/been destroyed at all. But that's just me.

Yup, Tau wins insurmountable odds because they are a race willing to learn from their mistakes. In the Kauyon book, they adapt and improvise after learning what the marines can do. It is shown that Shadowsun used the mirrorcodex that Farsight created to fight the marines better. They are willing to do everything for the greater good. And also, they defeated the nids due to their science experiments and the poison they made. If you think that is fluff armour, then I think daemons that just get sucked back into the warp is fluff armour. The humans being able to travel the warp is fluff armour, and the emperor being the greatest psyker is fluff armour.

@anemone You're going to find things like that in most threads, but there are genuine arguments on here. Getting pissy about little stuff like that is, frankly, petty and immature.

Also, I never actually read up on Taros, so that's cool. Warhounds got wrecked by Tau Tigersharks. Knowing the AdMech, they probably sent recordings of the battle to a nearby Forge World, which created countermeasure protocols and gathered the resources necessary for it before promptly forgetting about it

Also, I said 'auto-win', then put several things that would negate the 'auto-win', which is basically saying that it isn't an auto-win.

As with any other single faction in the setting, if the Imperium were permitted to focus all of its resources against that target, that target would be Ended.

It is a fact of the setting, however, that the Imperium is never permitted to do such a thing.

However, if every other faction took a century or two off and just sat on their butts, and the Imperium realized this immediately and turned its attention to a single enemy, that enemy would be utterly and completely exterminated.