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Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Actually the Tau do use fixed installations especially once a conquest has been completed and the world is beginning to be normalised. See the Taros Campaign and various BL novels. The Tau are not going to use their limited military resources (Orcas and Mantas) once the conflict has concluded (or appears to have been).

In fact the Taros campaign has a strike along the lines being suggested with Stormtroopers and a Eversor Assassin attacking an air base and command HQ - killing the Ethereal target. They build fixed ground bases in the recent Damocles Campaign books

They also can't be sure that they have air superiority - they normally do - but its not always going to be the case - the scenario in the Aeronautica campaign book shows the problems that this can cause if their opponents can match their Aerospace cover. Orcas are vulnerable to interception and even Manta's can be driven off or destroyed by enough Anti Air or by super heavies.

See, that is actually what I thought because I do remember reading about static Tau bases and locations with strategic value to the Tau on the wiki article on the Damocles Gulf Crusade.

And i think the only time an emperor would be deployed against the Tau is if they attack a major world finally. Otherwise, if the Imperium demonstrates to the Tau that their most powerful titan can be destroyed, it wouldn't serve the high lords nor the mechanicus well In terms of moral, and overall view of the Blue Man Group's power. What about warlords though? How rare are those in the Imperium?

There are quite a few Warlords in service to the Imperium - most if not all Titan Legions would have at least some and they can repair and build them.

IIRC A full Titan Legion has not yet been sent to face the Tau - it may be that this is next non Heresy FW book as is rumoured and it should be quite bloody and a very different opponent for the Tau.

At Taros they just had a couple of Warhounds against them (which with the Asartes caused huge loses to the Tau forces before they used the Tigershark variant) although the original Crusade had larger forces who were extremely effective. Previously the Tau counter for them was the Manta but if they have to fight in space they can't do this.............hence the (IMO silly) new suits.

A full and well led combined arms force (Guard, Astartes, Navy, Mechanicum) should defeat the Tau but they are more uncommon than Warlords

 Formosa wrote:
Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.

Exactly true. And if the tau manage to destroy it, that's a massive loss to the Imperium. It's just not worth the risk.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.

Exactly true. And if the tau manage to destroy it, that's a massive loss to the Imperium. It's just not worth the risk.

Its not the imperium as such that would decide if a Imperator was used - that would be the Adeptus Mechanicus - it is possible that elements might be willing to risk it if they werer confident they could a) crush the Tau and b) have unrestircted access to the Tau technology to reverse engineer into a more palatable form - just as they do with most Xenos technology - course that may take a few hundred years or more......................

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Now I think about it.... A single emperor class titan is worth more to imperium than destroying the entire tau race, that speaks volumes on how the imperium sees the tau in the big picture.

Exactly true. And if the tau manage to destroy it, that's a massive loss to the Imperium. It's just not worth the risk.

Its not the imperium as such that would decide if a Imperator was used - that would be the Adeptus Mechanicus - it is possible that elements might be willing to risk it if they werer confident they could a) crush the Tau and b) have unrestircted access to the Tau technology to reverse engineer into a more palatable form - just as they do with most Xenos technology - course that may take a few hundred years or more......................

and that's just the pre alpha !!!!

On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.

But honestly Titans don't seem like the best Units to face Tau with exactly because of the fact that Tau can Mass-Produce a spacefighter with a Heavy Railgun. One cannot compare the amount of time and resources which the Tau Empire waste on squadrons of AX-10 Tigersharks to how long and exhaustive the process of creating new versions of the heavier Titans designations. Although I understand Forgeworld and GW's recent predilection with just giving the Tau bigger mechs the truth is that I'd have preferred if they stuck to the Tau's strengths of confronting the inane nature of their foes with more practical responses. An enormously lumbering terrestrial unit is far better engaged with large amounts of units which can remain a safe distance from it, move rapidly, but also have firepower sufficient to bring it down. Already with Battlesuits you have the logic being glimpsed; if virtually all armies you fight have large amounts of landlocked troops and combatants and virtually your entire army can move into the air and stay out of range, you have an incredible advantage. But big Mechs are popular, particularly most 40k fans seem to prefer big and lumbering to sleek, so I get why GW and Forgeworld focus on it since there's no doubting the popularity of the Tau'nar and such.

Regardless, as part of this conversation, I must say that I really just am finding it difficult to maintain an interest in 40k's fluff anymore. A game where one side virtually wins everything of significance ever is just not fun to me at all. If a playable faction ever just got totally removed or such or destroyed beyond recognition I'd probably stop; I have friends who play with all those different factions, I think they're all fun and interesting in their own way, and I'd rather see them actually contributing rather than endlessly playing second fiddle or dying. But that's me, hardly a popular opinion as I learnt on /tg/. There's just no fun or tension to be had when, like a predictable story or film, I can always guess the outcome.

 Anemone wrote:
On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.

But honestly Titans don't seem like the best Units to face Tau with exactly because of the fact that Tau can Mass-Produce a spacefighter with a Heavy Railgun. One cannot compare the amount of time and resources which the Tau Empire waste on squadrons of AX-10 Tigersharks to how long and exhaustive the process of creating new versions of the heavier Titans designations. Although I understand Forgeworld and GW's recent predilection with just giving the Tau bigger mechs the truth is that I'd have preferred if they stuck to the Tau's strengths of confronting the inane nature of their foes with more practical responses. An enormously lumbering terrestrial unit is far better engaged with large amounts of units which can remain a safe distance from it, move rapidly, but also have firepower sufficient to bring it down. Already with Battlesuits you have the logic being glimpsed; if virtually all armies you fight have large amounts of landlocked troops and combatants and virtually your entire army can move into the air and stay out of range, you have an incredible advantage. But big Mechs are popular, particularly most 40k fans seem to prefer big and lumbering to sleek, so I get why GW and Forgeworld focus on it since there's no doubting the popularity of the Tau'nar and such.

Regardless, as part of this conversation, I must say that I really just am finding it difficult to maintain an interest in 40k's fluff anymore. A game where one side virtually wins everything of significance ever is just not fun to me at all. If a playable faction ever just got totally removed or such or destroyed beyond recognition I'd probably stop; I have friends who play with all those different factions, I think they're all fun and interesting in their own way, and I'd rather see them actually contributing rather than endlessly playing second fiddle or dying. But that's me, hardly a popular opinion as I learnt on /tg/. There's just no fun or tension to be had when, like a predictable story or film, I can always guess the outcome.

I mean, it's not hard to guess the outcome if all things stay the same, but GW will always have some plot twist to keep each faction alive and relevant.

Kauyon ends with Tau victory over the space marines, but the astra militarum are coming to take their place with a far larger force.

On the subject of Titans, if I recall correctly, it is stated that the Tau Empire fought them on Daly'th during the first Damocles Crusade. At the very least in fluff Tau have displayed an awareness of Titans up to at least Reaver if not beyond level. In Fire Warrior Kais destroys a Reaver Titan (I believe) which was being corrupted by Nurgle.

Titans caused huge devastation to the Tau previously and only Mantas could previously counter them - if they are required for fleet defence etc then they did not have anything. One of the things the Titans could do was project massive firepower at very long range whilst remaining very hard to kill due to their void shields and armour which negated the usual Tau advantages.

Kais destroyed a Titan on his own (well with a bit of help from a Space Marine) but it was not yet really active and was just powering up to full functionality.

The Tigershark was very effective (against the lightest class of Titan) as a unlooked for strike with the Tau having surprise and more importantly dominance of the air - if this was contested or a heavier class of Titan it would likely be more difficult and require a larger number of strike aircraft with their own air cover.

I agree I don't like the super suit, sorry M or G Creature theme but as you say that's what GW are going for.

Of course the problem with bigger titans is that a sensible army just pulls everything out and nukes the whole region from orbit. Titans are tough, but they aren't going to survive a full broadside from a battleship.

(Not that I expect GW to ever acknowledge this, since 40k ships seem to have their guns turn into the equivalent of tossing a few frag grenades whenever they point them at a ground target.)

 Peregrine wrote:
Of course the problem with bigger titans is that a sensible army just pulls everything out and nukes the whole region from orbit. Titans are tough, but they aren't going to survive a full broadside from a battleship.

(Not that I expect GW to ever acknowledge this, since 40k ships seem to have their guns turn into the equivalent of tossing a few frag grenades whenever they point them at a ground target.)

Well if you have a game about big robots / battlesuits etc you can't have them all destroyed without ever fighting each other - same in any game universe................ Especially since GW no longer has a space combat game so that element of the fluff is just sadly neglected.........

@McNinja: Except I have to disagree, I haven't felt Orks, Tau or Necron have really been relevant or mattered as anything more than punching bags for a while now. I'd have disagreed about the Tau, since by their scope they made significant differences to the status quo, except the writing is quite explicit on the wall that we'll see a return to the status quo shortly, or a reversion from it which removes the viability of a playable faction. Unfortunately fact still is that I know the moment anything 'counts' in a deeper sense only one faction is allowed to win. That is, to me, the very epitome of boring. I feel bad for my friends and how laughably poor their factions perform in anything of importance.

I remember I had a conversation with my little brother about what faction he ought to start; he had an interest in Tau, but when we got to talking about fluff I had nothing to recommend him on. All I could ws warn him don't go looking for anything online virtually the entire online fanbase wants them squatted. When starting any non-Imperium faction is that unappealing it makes me, as I said, lose an appetite for the Fluff completely,

(It should be noted that this is only from a Fluff perspective, of course, numerous people play for the Crunch and only that, but the circle I move in tends to enjoy the Fluff at least to an extent and make decisions based on it).

@Mr Morden: The thing about the Tigershark though is that they can simply make more of the AX-10 class. In particular Taros did not have a by any means 'huge' Tau Army either, not comparable to what Shadowsun is currently (for example) commanding or which participated in the Great War of Confederation. Since the Tau can mass produce Models they can easily, in a numbers game, produce far more AX-10 Tiger Sharks then there are Titans. The key point would be, as you say, air superiority since the AX-10 Tigersharks need to be kept sage. Not that it really matters. In Warhammer 40k victory will occur as the narrative demands, looking at it in terms of material and such doesn't really give one side any more edge than the other. Who GW wants to win will win and, invariably, it'll probably be the Imperium.

True, tau do have an edge in the fluff with air superiority, however in the game, they fall behind almost all the imperial flyers, they get beaten down hard. Even my dark angels flyers are better now.

... The Nephilim is not a better interceptor than the Barracuda, Formosa. I just flat out refuse that concept. It's certainly not better than the A-X-10, which is the 40k equivalent of the WW2 Beaufighter - a highly successful weapon for all that it was basically a light bomber with extra guns.

Yeah, the barracuda is pretty good. Sort of average flyer toughness, but it has some great weaponry (seriously, this things mounts a fething mbt gun, has a TL missile pod for some more damage, and the option of taking up to 4 seekers). And some cool special rules (it's burst cannons ignore cover from jinking/moving flat out, and it gets +1 on it's jink save).

The codex fliers OTOH, are utter crap.

Sorry guys, didn't realise the barracuda was in the tau Codex.....
When gw writes fluff it only writes fluff for units in that Codex, is the barracuda mentioned anywhere outside of forge world?

I mean if we're allowed fw units. Then the fire raptor is a dark angels flyer and is hands down better than any tau flyer, so is the xyphon, storm bird too, also the manta is pretty amazing, what about the orca, both are flyers, do we include them?

But bad sarcasm aside, if we do factor in all the imperial flyers, and the tau ones, the Tau ones are nowhere near as good, including the barracuda, it's beaten by the xyphon quite handily, the two tau Codex flyers are both awful still, the ax10 is ok, but it's a single strD shot, the thunderhawk is much better (our only Strd flyer, hence the comparison).

Fluff wise, the Tau only win air superiority due to the lack of imperial flyers being available and in taros, stealth suits attacking the airfields, game wise, tau flyers just are not as good, and the Codex ones specifically are worse than almost every imperial flyer.

Honestly, when you factor in that they Xiphon is 70 points more expensive, they are about the same, with perhaps a slight advantage to the barracuda.

And when did we mention the codex?

"The codex fliers OTOH, are utter crap."

Right there.

Point is, as much as I like tau, game wise, they cannot compete on flyers, with almost any imperial faction able to take them, fluff wise the plot armour saves them, so against a proper imperial presence, they would never have air superiority, but fluff / tabletop.

Not as in a general mention of them, but in relationship to the barracuda. You didn't say "codex only". I never claimed it was in the codex.

And fluff-wise the codex fliers aren't actually complete crap. From their descriptions at the very least.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Not as in a general mention of them, but in relationship to the barracuda. You didn't say "codex only". I never claimed it was in the codex.

And fluff-wise the codex fliers aren't actually complete crap. From their descriptions at the very least.

Why are they so bad? No one has ever explained that to me, just took it as gospel.

They're overpriced (although not excessively so), and badly deigned. Very little thought went into them. And when you have options like the barracuda and remoras available to you, there's not contest. And, in many tau armies they complete for spots with pathfinders.

 Formosa wrote:
True, tau do have an edge in the fluff with air superiority, however in the game, they fall behind almost all the imperial flyers, they get beaten down hard. Even my dark angels flyers are better now.

Hmm not sure - individually Tau aircraft are very good but as far as I read it not much or indeed any better than Imperial equivalents - and of course both are horribly outclassed by Elder fighters that's by the fluff - which I go by more than the game..............

From the IA the lightning has the edge on pure speed over the baracuda, but the barracuda is more maneuverable and better armed. Just fluff of course, I'm not sure how they stack up in game.

Well fluff wise, I see a Titian as akin to the battleship.

It's Firepower's and armour is immense, however to work effectively it needs support. Ie as part of a combined arms battle group such as orbital defence. Air support and fighter screens, anti air and infrianty units to deal with smaller, faster foes and mobile anit armour units for lighter enemies not worth using itsa guns on.

A titan is vunrable on its own. And yes can be beaten, no sane deployment would have them working alone.

Guard, navy, tech guard, space marines and more all part of one battle group that each furfill a role, the titan is a powerful element but relies on the others.

 Formosa wrote:
Sorry guys, didn't realise the barracuda was in the tau Codex.....
When gw writes fluff it only writes fluff for units in that Codex, is the barracuda mentioned anywhere outside of forge world?

I mean if we're allowed fw units. Then the fire raptor is a dark angels flyer and is hands down better than any tau flyer, so is the xyphon, storm bird too, also the manta is pretty amazing, what about the orca, both are flyers, do we include them?

But bad sarcasm aside, if we do factor in all the imperial flyers, and the tau ones, the Tau ones are nowhere near as good, including the barracuda, it's beaten by the xyphon quite handily, the two tau Codex flyers are both awful still, the ax10 is ok, but it's a single strD shot, the thunderhawk is much better (our only Strd flyer, hence the comparison).

Fluff wise, the Tau only win air superiority due to the lack of imperial flyers being available and in taros, stealth suits attacking the airfields, game wise, tau flyers just are not as good, and the Codex ones specifically are worse than almost every imperial flyer.

The Thunderhawk's D-gun can't hit a flier, while the A-X-10's can though.

The A-X-10 can outrange and snipe out any opposing fliers. I'd back a Tigershark over the Fire Raptor in an interceptor role any day.

Is the Xyphon really that good? It looked totally lacklustre to me, a couple of overpriced lascannons and a meh missile launcher.
______________

The main problem with the Tau Codex fliers is that they're a bomber and a ground attack craft respectively - there's no interceptor or fighter there, so when comparing codex units only, the Tau seriously have no air-to-air options outside the silly Interceptor Drones.

Hey, remoras are great. They put out a ridiculous amount of 5/5 shots at 36", and have a networked marker and 2 seekers a piece. As well as being dirt cheap fliers with shrouded, so not that tough, but a real pain to kill. I love the little guys.


Also, you can the 3 barracudas for the price of 2 xyphons, with enough for a couple of seekers left over.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
Sorry guys, didn't realise the barracuda was in the tau Codex.....
When gw writes fluff it only writes fluff for units in that Codex, is the barracuda mentioned anywhere outside of forge world?

I mean if we're allowed fw units. Then the fire raptor is a dark angels flyer and is hands down better than any tau flyer, so is the xyphon, storm bird too, also the manta is pretty amazing, what about the orca, both are flyers, do we include them?

But bad sarcasm aside, if we do factor in all the imperial flyers, and the tau ones, the Tau ones are nowhere near as good, including the barracuda, it's beaten by the xyphon quite handily, the two tau Codex flyers are both awful still, the ax10 is ok, but it's a single strD shot, the thunderhawk is much better (our only Strd flyer, hence the comparison).

Fluff wise, the Tau only win air superiority due to the lack of imperial flyers being available and in taros, stealth suits attacking the airfields, game wise, tau flyers just are not as good, and the Codex ones specifically are worse than almost every imperial flyer.

The Thunderhawk's D-gun can't hit a flier, while the A-X-10's can though.

The A-X-10 can outrange and snipe out any opposing fliers. I'd back a Tigershark over the Fire Raptor in an interceptor role any day.

Is the Xyphon really that good? It looked totally lacklustre to me, a couple of overpriced lascannons and a meh missile launcher.
______________

The main problem with the Tau Codex fliers is that they're a bomber and a ground attack craft respectively - there's no interceptor or fighter there, so when comparing codex units only, the Tau seriously have no air-to-air options outside the silly Interceptor Drones.

What makes you think that, thunderhawks have skyfire, skyfire can fire blasts at fliers.

No it can't.... At least AFAIK.

Skyfire cannot fire blasts at fliers. Re-read Hard to Hit.

Hard to Hit
Zooming Flyers are incredibly difficult targets for troops without suitably calibrated weapons and scopes. Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots (unless the model or weapon has the Skyfire special rule). Template and Blast weapons, and any other attacks that don’t roll To Hit, cannot hit Zooming Flyers.

Skyfire only applies to weapons that Roll to Hit.

Why are we talking about game mechanics in a fluff thread about the best flyer? And, more importantly, why are we assuming that 40k game mechanics matter the most? For example, in Aeronautica Imperialis (the air combat game, which should presumably have the most accurate flyer stats) both the Thunderhawk's turbolaser and the Tigershark's railgun are ground attack weapons that can not be used against flyers.