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@Bleak I love how your primary defense is that he's a dumb fanboy who is grasping at straws for his entire defense and he's soo stoopid and such a fething scrub and such a bludy fenboi. Now, onto the good part! The red is my rebuff of much of what you said.
bleak wrote:
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yes, it has been explicitly pointed out repeatedly that the Imperium were a "terror to fight", and that the Tau weren't willing to engage them in open combat. Therefore, the Imperium had Void Superiority.
Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength.
Yes, in several posts that were prior to yours. Maybe you should bother reading the thread - or, better yet, the fluff.
And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond?
If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Again with the petty insults . This isn't the place for them. Why not include firewarrior in this discussion? What, you mean besides the fact that it contradicts innumerable other fluff sources? You mean besides the fact that it is a video game designed to make a lowly grunt into a mighty hero? You mean besides the fact that it had to be tailored to actually be fun (which is virtually impossible to do if you make it strictly fluff-faithful)?
Why bring in other races? Because those races are faster and stronger than the Tau, yet the Space Marines defeated them. The Dark Eldar use tech so advanced the Tau couldn't even concieve of it (not to mention the fact that it's Warp-based, but that's another story altogether). The Dark Eldar have 63,000,000+ years' worth of technological development going into their vehicles. You really think that the one faction that is infamous for being the fastest faction in the Galaxy is going to somehow be slower than these backwater savages? You honestly think that the Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat, could not do the same to the Tau? This comparison is relevant because it points out the inconsistencies of this campaign; it points out how this story contradicts boatloads of other fluff.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Yes modern warfare does have mobile bases. But, of course, these are logical bases with the ability to defend themselves from a ground assault. Not flying islands that could be easily brought down with a few hundred Melta Charges to the belly. Humans can cast Psychic powers because they make sense. They explain all sorts of paranormal phenomena. The Psychic powers are an integral and consistent portion of the Setting, that have been explained to death. You can't compare something like that - with nothing that would make it not make sense in the real world - to something that has blatant weaknesses that are conveniently ignored by the authors.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
SMH Again with the petty insults. Actually, that just points out how the Tau continue to develop technology, while the Imperium is still reliant upon the same gak they had 15k years ago (the approx. time of the Fall of Old Night). Also, you are pointing out issues that have nothing to do with this conversation. The portrayment of the UltraSues has little to do with the portrayment of the Tau. Not only have the Smurfs never been in any major engagements with the Tau, they are also the one faction that has more plot armour than any other faction in the game. The Smurfs have nothing to do with this; you might as well bring in the fact that bacon is the ultimate sandwhich topping while you're at it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 03:10:30
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
Yes, of course the Imperium missed the opportunity to end the war with an orbital bombardment. This is almost universal in scifi in general, and happens over and over again in 40k. A story consisting of "the space battleship entered orbit and then killed everything on the planet, the end" is not very interesting so the authors conveniently forget about the battleships in orbit and/or make their guns barely more effective than an artillery barrage. Don't act like this is something unique to one war against the Tau.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
Just like space marine tactics are idiotic, IG tactics are idiotic, ork tactics are idiotic, etc. Don't act like Tau are exceptional in this.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
dusara217 wrote: If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
Yes, of course the Imperium missed the opportunity to end the war with an orbital bombardment. This is almost universal in scifi in general, and happens over and over again in 40k. A story consisting of "the space battleship entered orbit and then killed everything on the planet, the end" is not very interesting so the authors conveniently forget about the battleships in orbit and/or make their guns barely more effective than an artillery barrage. Don't act like this is something unique to one war against the Tau.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
Just like space marine tactics are idiotic, IG tactics are idiotic, ork tactics are idiotic, etc. Don't act like Tau are exceptional in this.
You're right, the Tau failures are hardly unique, but at least IG tactics and SM tactics are based in reality. The Space Marines, being akin to real-life marines, smash through the enemy forces with Bolters (you know, the weapon that more than 60% of every Chapter is required to use as a primary weapon during every engagement) and Heavy Weapons, while IG hold the line, maintain supply lines, etc. Tau tactics are basically just "feth logic, we can just dance around, ignore tactical objectives, and somehow still win." Yes, Space Marines indulge in close combat, but they first jump hundreds of meters on jump packs; broaching huge distances quite quickly, and likely catching the enemy by surprise (if you're striking from ambush, like RG always do).
Also, there is a reason you don't just bomb every planet to hell. Most of the time, you want the planet to be remotely intact, not a radioactive, cratered wasteland. However, strategic bombing is something that is frequently found in 40k. From Chapter Masters calling down precision Orbital Strikes (see: Codex Space Marine) to Inquisitors calling down precision Orbital Lances (see: Codex Inquisition) to Space Marine Captains denying the enemy a valuable resource (see: Fallen Angels). The fact of the matter is, the authors of this narrative completely ignored the mountains of fluff that feature this, in favor of being idiots and writing a big, steamy pile of bad fluff.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
dusara217 wrote: @Bleak I love how your primary defense is that he's a dumb fanboy who is grasping at straws for his entire defense and he's soo stoopid and such a fething scrub and such a bludy fenboi. Now, onto the good part! The red is my rebuff of much of what you said.
bleak wrote:
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yes, it has been explicitly pointed out repeatedly that the Imperium were a "terror to fight", and that the Tau weren't willing to engage them in open combat. Therefore, the Imperium had Void Superiority.
Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength.
Yes, in several posts that were prior to yours. Maybe you should bother reading the thread - or, better yet, the fluff.
And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond?
If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Again with the petty insults . This isn't the place for them. Why not include firewarrior in this discussion? What, you mean besides the fact that it contradicts innumerable other fluff sources? You mean besides the fact that it is a video game designed to make a lowly grunt into a mighty hero? You mean besides the fact that it had to be tailored to actually be fun (which is virtually impossible to do if you make it strictly fluff-faithful)?
Why bring in other races? Because those races are faster and stronger than the Tau, yet the Space Marines defeated them. The Dark Eldar use tech so advanced the Tau couldn't even concieve of it (not to mention the fact that it's Warp-based, but that's another story altogether). The Dark Eldar have 63,000,000+ years' worth of technological development going into their vehicles. You really think that the one faction that is infamous for being the fastest faction in the Galaxy is going to somehow be slower than these backwater savages? You honestly think that the Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat, could not do the same to the Tau? This comparison is relevant because it points out the inconsistencies of this campaign; it points out how this story contradicts boatloads of other fluff.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Yes modern warfare does have mobile bases. But, of course, these are logical bases with the ability to defend themselves from a ground assault. Not flying islands that could be easily brought down with a few hundred Melta Charges to the belly. Humans can cast Psychic powers because they make sense. They explain all sorts of paranormal phenomena. The Psychic powers are an integral and consistent portion of the Setting, that have been explained to death. You can't compare something like that - with nothing that would make it not make sense in the real world - to something that has blatant weaknesses that are conveniently ignored by the authors.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
SMH Again with the petty insults. Actually, that just points out how the Tau continue to develop technology, while the Imperium is still reliant upon the same gak they had 15k years ago (the approx. time of the Fall of Old Night). Also, you are pointing out issues that have nothing to do with this conversation. The portrayment of the UltraSues has little to do with the portrayment of the Tau. Not only have the Smurfs never been in any major engagements with the Tau, they are also the one faction that has more plot armour than any other faction in the game. The Smurfs have nothing to do with this; you might as well bring in the fact that bacon is the ultimate sandwhich topping while you're at it.
Ok, sure, imperium had space control, so why do they not bombard the land below? What I am insinuating is that there is a reason why the marines couldn't do it, and you answered it I guess?
Well it wasn't a petty insult, but more about asking the poster why he had so much rage towards the tau victory in the book? Perhaps you should read the post properly as well as replying to the rest of my post as well? I did question why space marines had been up played in the their fluff as well and why didn't you answer that?
HAHAHA wait, psychic powers make sense and floating fortresses don't. Well played and thank you for your reply.
dusara217 wrote: You're right, the Tau failures are hardly unique, but at least IG tactics and SM tactics are based in reality. The Space Marines, being akin to real-life marines, smash through the enemy forces with Bolters (you know, the weapon that more than 60% of every Chapter is required to use as a primary weapon during every engagement) and Heavy Weapons, while IG hold the line, maintain supply lines, etc.
Err, no. Marines would be out of ammunition long before they could accomplish anything, and often get credit for idiotic things like "a whole squad could capture a planet". And given their absurd costs to make and support combined with laughably small numbers they're a spectacular waste of effort by the Imperium. Meanwhile the IG have WWI technology, little concept of strategy beyond human wave attacks and having more bodies than the enemy, and no real hope of success other than the fact that the enemy is almost always equally incompetent.
Tau tactics are basically just "feth logic, we can just dance around, ignore tactical objectives, and somehow still win."
The Tau objective is killing the enemy. Territory is meaningless to the Tau because they can redeploy at will, fight wherever they want, and never worry about supply lines on the ground. Once the enemy is dead you can take any territory you want. You can't compare that kind of absurd strategic mobility with real-world tactics that depend on ground-based supply chains for support.
Also, there is a reason you don't just bomb every planet to hell. Most of the time, you want the planet to be remotely intact, not a radioactive, cratered wasteland.
You are aware that tactical nukes exist, right? You know, weapons that are perfectly capable of wiping out troops on the ground without causing any permanent damage to the planet. The only reason we don't see them is because "and then they nuked the incoming horde of orks and the planet was saved, the end" isn't the kind of story GW wants to tell in 40k.
However, strategic bombing is something that is frequently found in 40k. From Chapter Masters calling down precision Orbital Strikes (see: Codex Space Marine) to Inquisitors calling down precision Orbital Lances (see: Codex Inquisition) to Space Marine Captains denying the enemy a valuable resource (see: Fallen Angels). The fact of the matter is, the authors of this narrative completely ignored the mountains of fluff that feature this, in favor of being idiots and writing a big, steamy pile of bad fluff.
And, again, this happens all the time. GW wants to tell stories about heroic ground combat and so orbital bombardment is shoved into the background and always forgotten when it would get in the way of the story. Don't act like this is something special with the Tau because it happens just as often when the Tau should be the ones dropping a few nukes on stuff from orbit.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
dusara217 wrote: You're right, the Tau failures are hardly unique, but at least IG tactics and SM tactics are based in reality. The Space Marines, being akin to real-life marines, smash through the enemy forces with Bolters (you know, the weapon that more than 60% of every Chapter is required to use as a primary weapon during every engagement) and Heavy Weapons, while IG hold the line, maintain supply lines, etc.
Err, no. Marines would be out of ammunition long before they could accomplish anything, and often get credit for idiotic things like "a whole squad could capture a planet". And given their absurd costs to make and support combined with laughably small numbers they're a spectacular waste of effort by the Imperium. Meanwhile the IG have WWI technology, little concept of strategy beyond human wave attacks and having more bodies than the enemy, and no real hope of success other than the fact that the enemy is almost always equally incompetent.
Key word here being based. GW writers being the idiots they are, they don't understand basic logic like that. However, the Space Marines still act in a similar manner to the way that Marines do today. It is based in reality, but the sheer lack of numbers, alone, (not even taking into account the logistical nightmare) would make them ineffective. If you read about Imperial Guard in action, they don't just drown the enemy in bodies; they act like actual soldiers. They fight like an army; they grab objectives, launch coordinated counterattacks, etc.
Tau tactics are basically just "feth logic, we can just dance around, ignore tactical objectives, and somehow still win."
The Tau objective is killing the enemy. Territory is meaningless to the Tau because they can redeploy at will, fight wherever they want, and never worry about supply lines on the ground. Once the enemy is dead you can take any territory you want. You can't compare that kind of absurd strategic mobility with real-world tactics that depend on ground-based supply chains for support.
Also, there is a reason you don't just bomb every planet to hell. Most of the time, you want the planet to be remotely intact, not a radioactive, cratered wasteland.
You are aware that tactical nukes exist, right? You know, weapons that are perfectly capable of wiping out troops on the ground without causing any permanent damage to the planet. The only reason we don't see them is because "and then they nuked the incoming horde of orks and the planet was saved, the end" isn't the kind of story GW wants to tell in 40k.
Pretty sure that that's exactly what I said right afterwards. Something along the lines of "surgical strikes" "orbital bombardment", you know, what you just said. But thanks for actually reading what I wrote. I really appreciate it.
However, strategic bombing is something that is frequently found in 40k. From Chapter Masters calling down precision Orbital Strikes (see: Codex Space Marine) to Inquisitors calling down precision Orbital Lances (see: Codex Inquisition) to Space Marine Captains denying the enemy a valuable resource (see: Fallen Angels). The fact of the matter is, the authors of this narrative completely ignored the mountains of fluff that feature this, in favor of being idiots and writing a big, steamy pile of bad fluff.
And, again, this happens all the time. GW wants to tell stories about heroic ground combat and so orbital bombardment is shoved into the background and always forgotten when it would get in the way of the story. Don't act like this is something special with the Tau because it happens just as often when the Tau should be the ones dropping a few nukes on stuff from orbit.
*sigh* you are the most irritating... I literally pointed out the fact that "GW being GW", they leave gak out like this all the time. While it is frequently mentioned, especially in Space Marine stuff (from what I've read), it is still left out of places where it would have been the logical conclusion. But, sure, take out of it what you will. I don't care anymore, you seem to be getting angry over a silly internet discussion.
@Bleak
Spoiler:
bleak wrote:
dusara217 wrote: @Bleak I love how your primary defense is that he's a dumb fanboy who is grasping at straws for his entire defense and he's soo stoopid and such a fething scrub and such a bludy fenboi. Now, onto the good part! The red is my rebuff of much of what you said.
bleak wrote:
Sigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space?
Yes, it has been explicitly pointed out repeatedly that the Imperium were a "terror to fight", and that the Tau weren't willing to engage them in open combat. Therefore, the Imperium had Void Superiority.
Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength.
Yes, in several posts that were prior to yours. Maybe you should bother reading the thread - or, better yet, the fluff.
And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond?
If the Imperial Fleet is so mighty that the Tau are crapping their pants, then it is highly doubtful that they couldn't have managed to fling a few magma warheads down there. Especially with Space Marine Vessels in the mix. In case you failed to open the links, I'll summarize them for you: Space Marine vessels are designed to blitz toward an enemy planet, bomb the gak out of it while launching drop pods and Thunderhawks, then GTFO. In the case of this war, you can take out the GTFO portion of the agenda.
I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Again with the petty insults . This isn't the place for them. Why not include firewarrior in this discussion? What, you mean besides the fact that it contradicts innumerable other fluff sources? You mean besides the fact that it is a video game designed to make a lowly grunt into a mighty hero? You mean besides the fact that it had to be tailored to actually be fun (which is virtually impossible to do if you make it strictly fluff-faithful)?
Why bring in other races? Because those races are faster and stronger than the Tau, yet the Space Marines defeated them. The Dark Eldar use tech so advanced the Tau couldn't even concieve of it (not to mention the fact that it's Warp-based, but that's another story altogether). The Dark Eldar have 63,000,000+ years' worth of technological development going into their vehicles. You really think that the one faction that is infamous for being the fastest faction in the Galaxy is going to somehow be slower than these backwater savages? You honestly think that the Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat, could not do the same to the Tau? This comparison is relevant because it points out the inconsistencies of this campaign; it points out how this story contradicts boatloads of other fluff.
And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Yes modern warfare does have mobile bases. But, of course, these are logical bases with the ability to defend themselves from a ground assault. Not flying islands that could be easily brought down with a few hundred Melta Charges to the belly. Humans can cast Psychic powers because they make sense. They explain all sorts of paranormal phenomena. The Psychic powers are an integral and consistent portion of the Setting, that have been explained to death. You can't compare something like that - with nothing that would make it not make sense in the real world - to something that has blatant weaknesses that are conveniently ignored by the authors.
Also, obviously Tau tactics are idiotic. They were written by sci-fi writers with no grasp at all on modern warfare - or, really, warfare, in general. There have been several posts that point this out in a logical and easy to understand format. Thanks for failing to read the thread, it really makes you look good.
I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
SMH Again with the petty insults. Actually, that just points out how the Tau continue to develop technology, while the Imperium is still reliant upon the same gak they had 15k years ago (the approx. time of the Fall of Old Night). Also, you are pointing out issues that have nothing to do with this conversation. The portrayment of the UltraSues has little to do with the portrayment of the Tau. Not only have the Smurfs never been in any major engagements with the Tau, they are also the one faction that has more plot armour than any other faction in the game. The Smurfs have nothing to do with this; you might as well bring in the fact that bacon is the ultimate sandwhich topping while you're at it.
Ok, sure, imperium had space control, so why do they not bombard the land below? What I am insinuating is that there is a reason why the marines couldn't do it, and you answered it I guess?
That's exactly the issue, there was no logical reason not to bombard the land below. There have always been surgical bombardments in 40k. Orbital Lance Strikes, Tactical Magma Warheads, bog-standard artillery bombardments, all kinds of things. There is zero reason they couldn't have been employed in this narrative.
Well it wasn't a petty insult, but more about asking the poster why he had so much rage towards the tau victory in the book? Perhaps you should read the post properly as well as replying to the rest of my post as well? I did question why space marines had been up played in the their fluff as well and why didn't you answer that?
lol, i'm reading this whole post in the voice of Jillian from Family Guy XD. Anyways, back on topic. There was no rage in that post. I literally quadruple-checked (once prior to my original reply, another right after starting to type it, another halfway through, and then another just now) - I"ve read it four times. You Tau fans seem to be the only ones getting pissy (see: the post I just replied to further up in the post). I hate Space Marine plot armour just as much as the next guy, but if that's how GW gets their little plastic soldiers off the shelves, then so be it; it gives me a game to play. That is not something I deign to reply to at virtually any time, simply because it comes up so much that it is just common sense that the GW poster boys are going to have the most rediculous plot armour.
HAHAHA wait, psychic powers make sense and floating fortresses don't. Well played and thank you for your reply.
Yes, psychic powers make perfect tactical sense. If I'm going to be assaulting an enemy planet, I would love some Battle Psykers on my side. Giant, lumbering, floating fortresses that would make prime targets for Orbital Bombardment? Not so much.
Automatically Appended Next Post: also, tactical nukes leave behind residual radiation for decades (if not centuries), just like regular nukes; it's just more contained.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 08:34:44
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat
Since when does that happen?
Or do you mean "sometimes Astartes do not fail in setting up ambushes in known Dark Eldar raid locations"?
Because those are somewhat different things
And Dark Eldar are not really famous for sane battle tactics, being drug-addicted adreanaline junkies who love getting in close combat they are
Oh well, from the way you think I guess you don't get how absurd you sound, trying to make 40k right. You say floating fortresses are stupid, and yet, imperium has the largest most stupid mobile fortress on two legs ever. And come to think of it, a well placed bombardment can deal with it easier because it can collapse easier than flying discs. And sure, bringing battle psykers are realistic, just like invisible knights. And if you want to talk about tactical sense, the marines don't seem to have any in this conflict until shrike took over.
I'm quite glad you ignored the marine fanboys because they are too common nowadays, gotta shift the hate to the new codex release race.
Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat
Since when does that happen?
Or do you mean "sometimes Astartes do not fail in setting up ambushes in known Dark Eldar raid locations"?
Because those are somewhat different things
And Dark Eldar are not really famous for sane battle tactics, being drug-addicted adreanaline junkies who love getting in close combat they are
Dark Eldar regularly kick Imperial ass, this is a fact. Space Marines strangely succeed in bringing them into open combat, though (somehow), and, during the HH, the Legions frequently won conflicts with Eldar Pirates who wore their victims' skin as cloaks (the precursors to current Dark Eldar
bleak wrote:Oh well, from the way you think I guess you don't get how absurd you sound, trying to make 40k right. You say floating fortresses are stupid, and yet, imperium has the largest most stupid mobile fortress on two legs ever. And come to think of it, a well placed bombardment can deal with it easier because it can collapse easier than flying discs. And sure, bringing battle psykers are realistic, just like invisible knights. And if you want to talk about tactical sense, the marines don't seem to have any in this conflict until shrike took over.
I'm quite glad you ignored the marine fanboys because they are too common nowadays, gotta shift the hate to the new codex release race.
hate? seriously? People like you just... always automagically assuming that I hate Tau just because I disagree with you. You're like those feminists who say that anybody who disagrees with them is a misogynist.
I'm assuming you're speaking of Titans, which are less mobile fortresses and more like fire support platforms with the most powerful weapons you can fit onto two legs. Obviously, they would never work in real life, but still. I honestly don't see what that has to do with anything (you were, at first, defending the mobile fortresses, and then, suddenly, you think that I'm some Imperuim fanboy who doesn't understand the fact that the Imperium has more plot armour and illogic than almost any other collection of factions). Throwing around claims about Space Marines that are obvious don't change this debate in the slightest. In a narrative written this poorly, obviously the Marines are going to be blundering idiots that can barely walk and talk at the same time. Stating the obvious doesn't help your case in the slightest. The fact remains: Void Superiority = win. That is it should have gone; either the Tau fleet launched some daring series of raids that saw to the crippling of a few key battleships, used some new superweapon, or utilized hit-and-run attacks to draw the Human fleet away. None of this happened, unfortunately, instead we get win because plot. No real thinking went into who would win this.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Firstly, you said that the mobile fortress was stupid and it was more realistic to bring a psyker in a made believe universe, which is then proven that the mobile fortress worked super well against the marines in this match. And what debate is there? Saying that the tau should have lost? Well, they won in the kauyon codex and like I said before, both sides took heavy casualties and even the tau side was shown to be beaten quite severely, and did you even acknowledge that? No, you just focused on the negative side I said about marines because only fanboys would emphasize on that. And I believe I said it wasn't written to good light of the marines as well, and you casually ignored that part. So please read before you post.
And oh, void space wasn't mentioned. It was voltoris that imperium had a strong hold over, not prefectia so the victory went to the tau. And I mentioned about how marines can win without real thinking too, and you brushed it aside, so good job again. Please troll better!
You guys better cool it before a mod shuts the discussion down... not that it's been very productive so far, given the nature of the thread
And why not use more fluff references to support your statements rather than trade petty insults? You fanboy this, hater that is hardly going to convince anyone.
Oh and by fluff references I mean with actual links, quotes, or page numbers, so that others reading the thread can actually check rather than having to take your word for it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 13:49:06
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
Wow, this has quickly turned into a my dad can beat up your dad kind of argument... On another note, any predictions on the Mont' ka supplement? We know imperial assassins are sent to assassinate Aun'va, Farsight and Shadowsun, and according to GW not all of them survive. We also know Longstrike and Pask go head to head in a large cat and mouse tank engagement, and again, according to GW one of them dies.
I'm guessing Aun'va is going to be the one to be assassinated, hopefully with a bullet to the head from a vindicare during an impassioned speech (a political and spiritual leader of an interstellar empire has no business on the front line anyways). I think Shadowsun and Farsight are both going to survive, since they are quite popular and sell quite well. As much as it pains me to admit it, I'm pretty sure Longstrike will die to Pask. For starters, GW is releasing some new tank kits for IG/AM and making Pask look good will help them look good. Second, it's about time a member of the IG/AM gets to have some of the glory as opposed to the marines. Lastly, Tau killed the raven guard chapter master and possibly the obsidian knight during the Kauyon supplement, so it's likely they are going to be on the receiving end this time.
If Tau do kill of any imperial characters it will probably be Farsight that takes their lives, though it's a big if.
Yes, please, I agree just let this thread die already. Nothing of value is coming from this anymore. We can all just wait for the next book to be released, a new thread can be made, more complaints can emerge about how the Tau don't deserve to win/shouldn't win/have single-handedly ruined the entire setting/make no sense in Warhammer 40k/are apparently written by a different group of Fluff writers to the rest of the setting who are bad at their jobs. This will, certainly, repeat in that thread. But let us just stop this one now.
This is why discussions online concerning Warhammer have become things I dread. It seems as if there is always only one faction permitted to be awesome, which faction that is differs from person to person, and any attempt to even imply another faction is relevant or not utter losers who have no defining or impressive quality gets attacked. To be clear everyone does it.
EDIT: Yes, I like that, some speculation about what comes next is nice. I saw on /tg/ a leaked page already confirms the Obsidian Knight is alive. Honestly no surprise since we've already been told that Tybalt has aide from a 'Dark and Mysterious Warrior' and the nature of the Obsidian Knight's 'death' was in 40k an obvious indicator he'd survive. I agree Pask will probably kill Longstrike, I have little to no doubt about that. To be fair I think, unfortunately, its unlikely that any Imperial Character with a Miniature will be killed by the Tau. Aun'va I'm very confident will die, but the image in the White Dwarf makes me suspect Culexus, and Longstrike will probably die to Pask. I'm rather confident, from the preview pages, that at least one of the Eight will die in the Eversor's Bio-Meltdown (probably saving Farsight). As for Imperial Characters...I think all the ones on the field now have Miniatures barring Tybalt so...I doubt any of them will die. Ko'sarro and Shrike won't, nor will Tybalt or the Obsidian Knight. Pask has the potential to die, I won't deny that, but I agree that its more likely Longstrike will die.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 14:15:27
I was kind of hoping it would be the callidus to go after farsight. The callidus could kill one of the 8 off screen, (or off supplement. whatever) impersonate them, then surprise Farsight at a critical moment... Cue an epic duel between the two, Farsight will get wounded but win by the skin of his teeth, perhaps the dawn blade reacts with power we have not seen before and it saves him. Who knows?
chalkobob wrote: I'm guessing Aun'va is going to be the one to be assassinated, hopefully with a bullet to the head from a vindicare during an impassioned speech (a political and spiritual leader of an interstellar empire has no business on the front line anyways).
That'd be cool to see. Aun'va has been around forever and wasn't really very likeable, nor that interesting of a character. Would be interesting to shake things up by having such a prominent Ethereal get assassinated.
chalkobob wrote: Lastly, Tau killed the raven guard chapter master and possibly the obsidian knight during the Kauyon supplement, so it's likely they are going to be on the receiving end this time.
Shrike is chapter master now? Man I haven't been keeping up. That's badass. But losing a First Founding chapter master to the Tau? Ouch.
And the Angels of Darkness descended on pinions of fire and light... the great and terrible dark angels.
He was not the golden lord. The Emperor will carry us to the stars, but never beyond them. My dreams will be lies, if a golden lord does not rise.
I look to the stars now, with the old scrolls burning runes across my memory. And I see my own hands as I write these words. Erebus and Kor Phaeron speak the truth.
Firstly, you said that the mobile fortress was stupid and it was more realistic to bring a psyker in a made believe universe, which is then proven that the mobile fortress worked super well against the marines in this match. And what debate is there? Saying that the tau should have lost? Well, they won in the kauyon codex and like I said before, both sides took heavy casualties and even the tau side was shown to be beaten quite severely, and did you even acknowledge that? No, you just focused on the negative side I said about marines because only fanboys would emphasize on that. And I believe I said it wasn't written to good light of the marines as well, and you casually ignored that part. So please read before you post.
And oh, void space wasn't mentioned. It was voltoris that imperium had a strong hold over, not prefectia so the victory went to the tau. And I mentioned about how marines can win without real thinking too, and you brushed it aside, so good job again. Please troll better!
You might notice that you were the only one throwing around insults. You continually respond to logical fallacies I point out by claling me a hater, a fanboy, etc. I do not like the way Marines are portrayed. At all. And, yes, obviously the Tau should have lost; logically, whoever has Void Superiority will win by virtue of surgical bombardments and area denial Orbital Strikes (not to mention the air superiority that would likely be subsequent). I pointed out blatant weaknesses in the flying fortress, you casually ignored it and called me a hater. I have acknowledged the idiocy of Space Marines repeatedly on this thread, but no, I"m just an idiot fanboi herdy her her. You call me a troll for pointing out logical fallacies, acknowledging those logical fallacies regarding the side that I believe should have won, and acknowledging what you say [without throwing around petty insults]. I would appreciate it if you would, at the very least, stop acting like a petulant child every time somebody brings up a point that you can't counter.
Facts:
- The Imperium was directly stated to have a fleet that the Tau were unwilling to engage in open combat
- The Imperium had Void Superiority, as the Tau were uwilling to fully engage, which would have allowed, at the very least, Space Marine Strike Cruisers to launch Orbital Bombardments
- The Tau won the battle with heavy casualties (which is immaterial to this discussion, as I wasn't the one complaining about the authors glossing over this fact until the last two pages)
- The Imperium had their asses handed to them on the ground
- The Tau utilized floating fortresses that could have easily been handled with Melta Charges placed along their bellies, or, alternatively, Orbital Bombardment
These are facts that have been stated again and again in this thread. If you are unwilling to even attempt to defend your side of the discussion, then I believe that it is safe to say that it is over. Good day.
chalkobob wrote:I was kind of hoping it would be the callidus to go after farsight. The callidus could kill one of the 8 off screen, (or off supplement. whatever) impersonate them, then surprise Farsight at a critical moment... Cue an epic duel between the two, Farsight will get wounded but win by the skin of his teeth, perhaps the dawn blade reacts with power we have not seen before and it saves him. Who knows?
I find myself looking forward to this. Maybe have the Dawn Blade having some kind of ability akin to the Digital Weapon John Grammaticus used in Unremembered Empire (basically disintegrates the foe).
Astartes, who were specifically designed and trained to counter the fastest and mightiest of Xenos species, who consistently bring the fastest faction in the game into open combat
Since when does that happen?
Or do you mean "sometimes Astartes do not fail in setting up ambushes in known Dark Eldar raid locations"?
Because those are somewhat different things
And Dark Eldar are not really famous for sane battle tactics, being drug-addicted adreanaline junkies who love getting in close combat they are
YEs, that's exactly what I mean*
*no sarcasm intended
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/26 19:31:58
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
And why not use more fluff references to support your statements rather than trade petty insults? You fanboy this, hater that is hardly going to convince anyone.
Oh and by fluff references I mean with actual links, quotes, or page numbers, so that others reading the thread can actually check rather than having to take your word for it.
OtoH, its a Tau thread.
They are always different.
No sources, no quotes , whoever doesn't share someones POV is a hater, etc.
Seems like a basic setup of those.
At least, i can take from this it was a good idea to spend 0 € on this campaign.
Target locked,ready to fire
In dedicatio imperatum ultra articulo mortis.
H.B.M.C :
We were wrong. It's not the 40k End Times. It's the Trademarkening.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
Uriel ventris used bio toxins to kill nids..... So....yeah, that happened.
I don't see an issue myself, yeah tau tactics don't work, yes they fight like insurgents and give up ground that would lead to tactical suicide, but it's suspension of disbelief, admittedly as an ex military man myself a pretty big pill to swallow, but I allow it as I don't mind the tau getting a win, they cannot possibly win the larger war, let them take a dozen imperial planets, the imperium will just swat them, or the latent psykers will deamon bomb them, or the harmless cult of Tzeentch they allowed to exist on imperial world's will corrupt them, or the a.I revolution will wipe them out, the Tau are going to be the ones to wipe themselves out, be it when the population becomes so large the ethereals cannot control them all, or there is a "horus heresy" within the empire, just a matter of time, so let them have there victories, there days are numbered, like every 40k race.
Formosa wrote: Uriel ventris used bio toxins to kill nids..... So....yeah, that happened.
I don't see an issue myself, yeah tau tactics don't work, yes they fight like insurgents and give up ground that would lead to tactical suicide, but it's suspension of disbelief, admittedly as an ex military man myself a pretty big pill to swallow, but I allow it as I don't mind the tau getting a win, they cannot possibly win the larger war, let them take a dozen imperial planets, the imperium will just swat them, or the latent psykers will deamon bomb them, or the harmless cult of Tzeentch they allowed to exist on imperial world's will corrupt them, or the a.I revolution will wipe them out, the Tau are going to be the ones to wipe themselves out, be it when the population becomes so large the ethereals cannot control them all, or there is a "horus heresy" within the empire, just a matter of time, so let them have there victories, there days are numbered, like every 40k race.
The issue isn't that Tyranids are immune to all toxins, it's just they develop countermeasures so quickly that to use something like the Lifeeater Virus (Exterminatus Weapon) on them would make it so that they couldn't use the weapon again in the future (unless they were absolutely certain that the Hive Fleet was completely destroyed).
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Adrik wrote: I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare.
By forcing the enemy to over-extend, isolate their units, and draw out their supply lines. Then the Tau army hops aboard a Manta squadron, re-deploys in a matter of minutes, and cuts those supply lines. Or re-deploys overwhelming forces against the isolated units that took the bait. Or if nobody takes the bait they just pull out and try again somewhere else.
We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open.
Tau "lure" tactics do not necessarily involve drawing units into melee range. Drawing them into range of their ranged weapons is also a valid strategy, as long as their firing positions make them good targets.
You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed.
The point you're missing is that the Tau don't fight like real-world armies. There is no concept of forward or backward because the "front" can change at will. If the enemy comes "forward" then they are conceding the ground they just left, ground that can be occupied with a brief Manta flight. And suddenly you're cut off and have to keep moving "forward" to retreat! Or maybe you just move "forward", draw out your supply lines, and find yourself out of fuel and ammunition because your supply convoys keep getting wiped out by over-the-horizon seeker missile strikes targeted by invisible spotters.
See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
Guerrilla warfare can only be done by small forces in the real world. Real world limits like supply lines and large-scale strategic mobility do not apply to the Tau.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
No, we're saying that you can't just apply real-world design rules like "bottom armor on a vehicle is always weak" to completely different units. Tau mobile fortifications aren't invulnerable, but they almost certainly have armor plating on the bottom to protect them as they fly.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
It should be noted that not only are seemingly isolated unit used as bait, but a lack of units is used as well. An area that looks free from tau presence, for them to claim and further strengthen their hold/use the resources there is perfect bait.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
On the FW game, there was a BL book based on it made. IIRC a trio of crisis suits killed the greater demon with their missile pods. It should also be noted that the tau orc dropship is actually from FW, they were going to use a manta but it was too big for their purposes.
And I don't see how it not being good has anything to do with it being canon or not. It was a firmly mediocre game, but it did have a sort of interesting story, and the book was very good.
Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
kronk wrote: Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
sebster wrote: Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
BaronIveagh wrote: Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
That was a fairly calm post actually. No rage from what I read; no exclamation marks, no swearing, no italics, bolds, etc. Nothing to really indicate rage, but you can read into it what you will (you seem to think that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a ragin' fanboi).
a.) He did not say that Tau tech wouldn't work, thanks for making up arguments that nobody on this thread posted
b.) Also, don't take things at face value? Seriously? Very well then, I now believe that this entire narrative was just a fever dream that Shadowsun had while she was sick with Tau Malaria. c.) Making Titans invisible never came up. Thanks for, once again, making up arguments that nobody has posted on this thread about.
d.) Stop arguing tactics. You don't know what you're talking about, and your blatant ignorance regarding the subject is not helping your cause in the slightest. If you think that Shadowsun's tactics were solid, then good for you; just keep it to yourself, because the only people you're going to convince are others who are ignorant of real-life warfare.
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
That was a fairly calm post actually. No rage from what I read; no exclamation marks, no swearing, no italics, bolds, etc. Nothing to really indicate rage, but you can read into it what you will (you seem to think that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a ragin' fanboi).
a.) He did not say that Tau tech wouldn't work, thanks for making up arguments that nobody on this thread posted
b.) Also, don't take things at face value? Seriously? Very well then, I now believe that this entire narrative was just a fever dream that Shadowsun had while she was sick with Tau Malaria. c.) Making Titans invisible never came up. Thanks for, once again, making up arguments that nobody has posted on this thread about.
d.) Stop arguing tactics. You don't know what you're talking about, and your blatant ignorance regarding the subject is not helping your cause in the slightest. If you think that Shadowsun's tactics were solid, then good for you; just keep it to yourself, because the only people you're going to convince are others who are ignorant of real-life warfare.
Erm, what about melta-ing the underbelly of a floating fortress that is basically invulnerable in game?
Sure, you can think of that while other people see it as a tau victory over imperium for this book.
Do you know what the tau call psychic powers?
And you do? On a fiction that is created by authors who are writing about space fantasy. Sure man, I enjoy the fluff and 'fake tactics' that make the stories interesting while you sulk and keep thinking its not possible for a game about plastic spacemen. The design for tau has always been about hunting, and it works tactically because their 'prey' are super powered humans. Let that sink in for a second. If you know you can't beat them holding ground, will you still be holding ground? Or find a better way to take your prey down?
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!"
And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps.
Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
That was a fairly calm post actually. No rage from what I read; no exclamation marks, no swearing, no italics, bolds, etc. Nothing to really indicate rage, but you can read into it what you will (you seem to think that anybody who doesn't agree with you is a ragin' fanboi).
a.) He did not say that Tau tech wouldn't work, thanks for making up arguments that nobody on this thread posted
b.) Also, don't take things at face value? Seriously? Very well then, I now believe that this entire narrative was just a fever dream that Shadowsun had while she was sick with Tau Malaria. c.) Making Titans invisible never came up. Thanks for, once again, making up arguments that nobody has posted on this thread about.
d.) Stop arguing tactics. You don't know what you're talking about, and your blatant ignorance regarding the subject is not helping your cause in the slightest. If you think that Shadowsun's tactics were solid, then good for you; just keep it to yourself, because the only people you're going to convince are others who are ignorant of real-life warfare.
Erm, what about melta-ing the underbelly of a floating fortress that is basically invulnerable in game?
This is a fluff discussion. Rules have no place in a discussion that is about the fluff, as the two rarely coincide.
Sure, you can think of that while other people see it as a tau victory over imperium for this book.
Obviously it was a Tau victory; that was never in dispute.
Do you know what the tau call psychic powers?
Erm, superstition and balogna?
And you do? On a fiction that is created by authors who are writing about space fantasy. Sure man, I enjoy the fluff and 'fake tactics' that make the stories interesting while you sulk and keep thinking its not possible for a game about plastic spacemen. The design for tau has always been about hunting, and it works tactically because their 'prey' are super powered humans. Let that sink in for a second. If you know you can't beat them holding ground, will you still be holding ground? Or find a better way to take your prey down?
Sulk? You have quite the imagination, there, young one (especially since I have made several jokes throughout my posts, some more subtle than others).
There is a little something called suspension of disbelief. I have no problem believing that Tau beat the Imperium - in fact, I love that the Imperium lost. My issue is that the Tau went about it in the least realistic manner possible. I have no issue with flying space ships that go into other dimensions and fire super mega deathrays. Why? Because it is based upon science that we simply don't understand yet. That is part of what makes it fun, but, when you go too far into the unrealistic, and begin treading the illogical, it takes the fun out of the fluff. When I read Priests of Mars, I can overlook the grammatical errors and clearly phony mathematical terms, I can overlook Tech-Priests having bits of their brains in a series of jars mounted onto a vehicle and somehow still having their brains be fully functional. However, when they take a Tech-Priest, who has supposedly had such extensive neural enhancement that he barely even feels emotion anymore, and they make him feel flustered, angered, fearful, or anything but cold amusement, it breaks that suspension of disbelief; it treads the illogical.
EDIT: fixed the coding on the URL and the colored text.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/11/27 04:54:13
To quote a fictional character... "Let's make this fun!"
Tactical_Spam wrote: There was a story in the SM omnibus where a single kroot killed 2-3 marines then ate their gene seed and became a Kroot-startes.
Yes it IS a fluff discussion, and he did put in the reason how calgar is able to defeat the avatar of khaine in a brawl. And somehow you just avoided that. Sure.
And it was a really minor victory because they know they are spent and I too do not argue that.
No, they actually have a name for it called mind science and that is because they cloaked their forces. The knights that were in battle were cloaked and shadowsun was shocked as well when they appeared done by the white scars named librarian.
I do agree some parts were illogical and as I stated many other codexes were as well just so they can look good. And I guess imagination isn't such a bad thing since I can suspend myself to believe in what the author is trying to convey.
bleak wrote: I guess you don't know what was going on then. The buildings the marines saw were all floating platforms and they flew above the marines and shot at them below. The tau did not suffer orbital bombardment, likewise for the space marine themselves no? It is written in the book that the tau has time and time again outmanoeuvred the imperium side. Of course, some things in the book are poorly written like how the marines thought its good to just bum rush the enemy that has superior firepower in the open, or to just send your commander into the fight, but this is 40k. If you think tau tactics are stupid, the marines from other books are worse.
They have always broadcasted their victories for propaganda purpose. But only when the chapter master of the first founding chapter dies did they attract the attention of terra.
Why would the space marines suffer an orbital bombardment when it is the Imperium that held supremacy in space? Also it has been stated in the book that the Tau have outmaneuvered the Imperium which is interesting. How are the Tau faster than the Dark Eldar? I mean the Imperial Guard and the Space Marines have been able to force the Dark Eldar into battle.. You know the guys who could just detonate stars but don't want to because it wouldn't be fun? Thank you for bring up an inconsistency as the Imperium has caught the Eldar and the Dark Eldar both of which are hard to fight because they will just webway out. However the Tau can just move faster than the two fastest factions in the game? How are they outmaneuvering a force that can bring the Eldar to battle?
No, I know Tau tactics are dumb and are the dumbest. You are essentially defending the war tactic equivalent of Curving the bullet. Those Floating platforms were assaulted and if you bothered reading Kauyon you would know the White Scars scaled them. Also, does it not stick out in your mind the worst thing for a floating bastion to do is float above its targets since the underbelly would be the weakest part of the fortification? Also the Tidal Walls do not move that fast and the force that was coming at them was way faster than the tidal walls. The entire strat was that the walls could separate and allow them to encircle the enemy. Also you failed to mention that the Imperium knew of the tidal walls before they slammed into the planet. What was never explained was why didn't the Space Marines have the Tau forces whom's positions they knew orbitally bombarded? I mean have you never read the Sabbat Worlds Crusade? The Imperium many of times subjected worlds to intense orbital bombardment before dropping their troops onto the planet. Seems when the Imperium fights the Tau they forget that their fleet have weapons that can provide orbital support and can ensure the landing forces touch ground without being molested by enemy forces.
Now, before you try to say I just didn't want to see the Space Marines lose. False. First off, Space Marines have always been written up to fight like an elite strike unit much like the US Marines. They move forward and leave the army (the IG in this case) to worry about guarding the flanks. I am serious by the way.. the US Marines are incredibly aggressive and generally their tactic is to move forward and engage leaving the Army to guard the flanks and worry about that stuff. Anyway, I expected the Tau to win and I still believed the Tau should have won Prefectia, however the way the book was written gave no one but the Tau favorable light. The writers attempted to avoid describing Tau deaths and only in the end did you learn that the Tau took ASTRONOMICAL Losses which reading that book did not give you the slightest hint until the last few pages. By halfway through Kauyon I was wondering how the White Scars 3rd company was even battle capable.. It was a book written for Fanboys not fans of 40k. The only people defending it is the fanboys of Tau.
[quote=bleak 668273 8279523 nullSigh, the more I read about what you wrote, the more fanboy I feel you are and just want to be right without thinking about other factors that come into play. Was it mentioned that imperium held supremacy in space? Was it even mentioned there was combat in space? If not, how do you know if there wasn't a battle that was not mentioned? All I know is before the imperium sent their fleets, tau had orbital strength. And if you said that marines would have orbital bombard the ground already why haven't they done so? Maybe the they are already engaged and unable to respond? I know you are trying your best to make the marines badass, but in the book they made mistakes, and they tried to adapt towards the situation, even abandoning their petty rivalry with each other chapter, which was pretty nice to read. Also, what does the eldar have to do here? You talking about bringing other fluff in? Then why not firewarrior the game when you slaughter countless marines as A firewarrior and even help kill a greater daemon? By trying to bring in other factions to make your faction look good you must be really be clawing at every help you can get to try to restore your faith in your favourite race which I would say, give it up, because other codexes do up play their races' strength.
Pg 60 in Kauyon. The Tau fleet was actively hiding from the Imperial Fleet who is stated to be in high orbit. You did not read Kauyon did you? The Firewarrior game is not canon and was considered a giant flop. Again you are trying your best to deflect answering questions I posed that you are avoiding. You can avoid all you want but you are proving that you are a mindless tau fanboy and should be banned off this site.
bleak wrote: And wow, tau tactics are dumb? From what I know many armies in modern standards do have bases but its hidden from the enemy, and when you send in armies to fight you will set up more forward bases. I am sure nobody will be forced to hold ground to a base where it isn't their homeground or if the land is not of much importance if you have a base elsewhere. Also you must be living in world war 2. Because modern warfares have mobile bases if you don't know what that is. The tau of course as a sci fi thing took it one step further by making floating bastions. Of course in the real world you won't see it in action, but in a sci fi literature, you expect it to make sense? If humans can cast psychic powers, why can't a floating fortress be more armored up on the under belly.
Wait are you a civie going to argue with someone that is in the military about what is real and what is blatant fiction when it comes military? That is fanboyism. Do you even know what a modern mobile base is? Or did you play black ops and think you are some military expert? Let me start with that question because you have made the most ignorant comments on this forum to defend your faction. What you are actually talking about is a FOB or Forward Operational Base which are quick made installations and are static and support local forces. Once a base is put down there is a battle line. To deconstruct those bases is timely and FOBs are put down because it is better than having forces operating in the front lines having to travel all the way back to to the Main Operation Base or MOB which are incredibly defended. Whatever point you were trying to make was drowned out by the ignorance of you trying to talk about modern military which you have no clue of. Remember, don't speak about something you do now know.
Also you did not state how tau tactics are not stupid? As an active member of the military I want to know what is smart about Tau tactics. I want to know how a LURE of Kauyon works in conventional warfare. We do not put forces in a weak position to invite an attack in hopes of luring an enemy into assaulting that position because the reality of war. There is a thing called ranged weaponry like guns, cannons, and missiles and such which could decimate a force if left out in the open. You do not want your opponent coming forward, you want your opponent being Driven back. If you have to give ground it is due to you having to give up ground not because you want to lure an opponent into a clever ambush that if you lose you just gave up a load of territory and are now in horribly exposed. See, what the Tau use is Guerilla warfare despite the fact that Guerilla Warfare can only be done by small forces not large forces. Their stealth forces employing Guerilla Warfare is perfect but the majority of their military would and should be using conventional tactics because you cannot use squad and small force tactics on a macro level.
As for your armored underbelly. So you are saying things on your side should be impervious? Gotcha.
bleak wrote: I just feel like you are being butthurt by how much losses the marines took and then some even though the tau did take significant losses as well, but hey, haters gonna hate. I do agree that the book gave tau a much more favourable light, but they did insert losses for both sides everywhere, even one when 3 assault marines killed tons of tau in an urban environment and only the commander survived the ordeal. But then again, how did marneus calgar beat up the swarmlord the second time they met even though the swarmlord is supposed to be better with every battle? The tau(farsight) defeated the nids by toxins compared to marines charging headlong into combat. This shows marines way of war being really really.... bad. And also, how did marneus calgar defeat the avatar of Khaine in close combat as well? Sorry fanboy, if you want to be pissed, do consider how your army is portrayed in the first place.
First of all if I am not mistake Marneus Calgar stat wise can punch a hole in an Avatar of Khaine's face. Lysander himself can beat an Avatar of Khaine. So how did he beat an Avatar of Khaine? Go by a Marine codex, field Marneus Calgar, put him in close combat with the Avatar of Khaine and watch the Avatar of Khaine lose. We are talking about a guy with a 2+ 4+ vs a character with a 3+ and 5+ with both wounding each other on 2s. So 4+ invul vs 5+ invul and the Avatar hits on threes while Marneus hits on 4s and Marneus has Eternal Warrior so he cannot be instakilled and if he was in an Assault Squad when he attacked he just uses Assault Doctrine so he rerolls to hit... So, uh... i think we just learned that the Avatar of Khaine isn't that big of a badass.
No, I do not like bad fanfiction for fanboys like you. The Farsight biotoxin kill of the tyranids was disgraceful as GW ignored its own fluff which had stated since 2nd edition that you cannot poison the Tyranids as they adapt way too fast. Poison rules are not supposed to represent poison but a myriad of chemicals. There was a chapter approved long ago about how yes POISON does not work on Necrons but poison as a rule can represent things such as acids and chemicals. How did the Swarmlord lose in the rematch? So are you saying if you lose a fight in a duel you cannot win a rematch? I mean winning a fight doesn't mean you can beat that person every time. Unless I am mistaken Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in their first fight... and then Ali won the rematch. Under your logic Ali should have lost, right? I mean Frazier proved he was better and all fighters constantly improve so in the rematch Frazier was a better fighter than he was previously before, how could Ali beat him?
You are a joke, son.
bleak wrote: Whatever it is, there is a reason why the imperial side did not throw down an orbital bombardment. Tau too could have thrown down heavy air support with their mantas but they didn't as there were assets below. And well, I collect the tau and harlequins, and I acknowledge the fact on how costly this battle was, unlike some crybaby saying "oh marines shouldn't have lost!".
No, it was bad writing that the Imperial side did not orbital bombard the planet before the Space Marines made landfall. The "oh they could have committed their manta missile destroyers" isn't a counter point. The Manta missile Destroyers do not have the firepower of an Imperial Strike cruiser, or an Imperial Battle Cruiser, or the entire fleet sitting in high orbit that could have pounded the planet. The idea that a fleet would sit there and just watch is ignoring established fluff, tactics, and common sense. The planet was an undefended Fortress world that the Tau took easily because there was barely a defender to stop them. Second, if you actually read what I wrote instead of being an emotional troll, you would have read that I said the Tau should have won Prefectia. My descent on the book is that the writing team wrote up an unrealistic style of warfare when books like Helsreach showed exactly how vulnerable Space Marines are to attrition warfare. Attrition Warfare is the counter to Space Marines and in the end that is what really happened that the book was trying to hide so to appease people like you only to say in the end "Yeah the Tau took horrific losses and everyone of the Space Marine chapters withdrew and are still in fighting strength." which at that point it is actually a pyrrhic victory or by Real Military standards a gigantic loss. In fact, when the Space Marines withdrew it was because they did not want to be dragged into a war of attrition because they did not want to take heavy losses. In the End when you read Kauyon you are left with the picture that the Tau are incredibly stupid because they lost a billion men fighting 8 chapters of space marines, house terryn, and two freeblades, despite the book was not trying to describe the Tau's losses until the end of the book. A billion? They had the numbers that 8000 space marines spread out over the entire planet could not counter seeing how the Crisis suits are supposed to be the counter force to Space Marines, the book was a depressing work of bad writers.
I have no problem that the Tau won in Kauyon. They need to win so the story isn't a boring Imperium Curb stomp of an uppity Alien race. However, I do not want to read about a Mary Sue who has unrealistic tactics that runs counter to common sense and is only winning because the writers couldn't figure a way to articulate a war that stays true to both factions. If Tau beat the Imperium because of their Tech superiority than how does anyone fight the Necrons? Their tech is beyond everyone, they are the only faction who doesn't use the warp, and they have FTL drives that are FASTER than warp travel. Oh and let's not forget their base troops carry weapons that can bring Titans to their knees. They can alter the laws of reality and they can unleash their shackled gods upon their enemies of which ONE C'tan shard wiped out an entire tendril of a Hive fleet.
bleak wrote: And wait, do you know how the tau held their ground before? Have you not read the Kauyon book too? It is stated that the tau knew that their old ways of giving ground could no longer stand, therefore those places that she set the traps are just for settings traps. You seem to forget that they adapted to it by building stormsurges and ghostkeels to counter what they couldn't before. And I guess me saying the tau tactics are not stupid is like dusara saying psychic is realistic. This is how the authors portray them and they are shown to be hunters, therefore the way they waged warfare is the same as hunting. And remember, the forces sent against tau in the kauyon book were small elite forces, and drawing them to traps is better than just standing there and dying. Remember also, that the placement of the mobile fortresses were traps..
They did not hold ground. The Tidal Fortresses were destroyed by the White Scars. Or did you forget that Khan basically hammered through them and had to bring down air support? At that point Sternshield and Swiftflame were waging a guerilla warfare by fighting on the backfooting. Sternshield's whole "brilliant" style of warfare was to push his forces forward, engage the enemy, and then have his forces pretend to rout so to draw the enemy into a trap. I do not know how many times i have to say this or how sad it is that a military officer is telling you it doesn't work and you are arguing that it would. Trap warfare doesn't work, fighting on the backend doesn't work. Also the sad part is In Warzone Damocles the Imperium did not win because they were defending the massive fortress of House Terryn. The battle happened on the road where Sudabeh casted an intense fog that the Tau could not see through. At that point the White Scars attacked head on while a regiment of Cadians and a Regiment of Catachans hit the Tau in a pincer attack that completely destroyed Shadowsun's forces. Her only great tactic was to kill Sudabeh which at that point thirty Knights walked out of the fortress while the Obsidian Knight just erupted out of the Tau lines and began slaughter the cadres. Her entire force was nearly wiped out. How that battle made her think "We need fortresses" is beyond me. She lossed because of Supernatural fog... Also, the only time they really engaged was with the Stormsurges which basically nullified the Knights before any of that once Kayvaan Shrike was named Chapter Master the Tau were losing every engagement until the debut of the Stormsurges. The Aircast took horrific losses due to Space Marine anti air working together and on the ground the space marines annihilated the trap warfare.
Finally, you again are not presenting any factual way that their warstyle is actually credible. A trap doesn't work because luring an enemy to fight your forces turns into an engagement that is decided by who is the better fighter. Telling your forces to pretend you are overwhelmed and act like your routing would lead the unit (cadre in this point) to be wiped out. A retreat has to be done in a very organized and thoughtful manner. Soldiers getting up and running for their lives get annihilated even if they are acting. Once you stop firing the enemy fills that air with gun fire... and they begin moving up.
bleak wrote: Also, shadowsun knew that going head to head against the imperium will yield nothing and therefore made it all into mobile bases, because after fighting the imperium once, she knows that she cannot hold ground with marines there. She knows the bases will cease to be there after the trap is sprung, and giving ground without defensive perimeters is useless. It was open ground, not a location where you can fortify yourself. And remember also, that the tau are the aggressors here, therefore they had no real base to begin with. Only with destroying the main assault elements will it then be more feasible to start setting up the main bases. And remember that it is also the reason why shadowsun is on the verge of collapsing due to exhaustion, because she knew that she had to end the hunt or be always on the run. Remember, conventional tactics against marines is just not possible.
The tau have to have bases. They have to store ammunition, they have to have a place to treat their wounded, they have to have places to fix damage vehicles, places for their soldiers to eat and sleep, and places to refuel. An army that doesn't have a FOB, doesn't have a main base, doesn't have supply depots, doesn't have hospitals, and doesn't have a line of battle isn't an army. Everything you are saying makes no sense. In Iraq, we fought in the desert.. flat ground with zero cover. We put up FOBs... why? Because you have to have logistical support for your troops... Our enemies had fobs because if you are planning on running after the engagement than you are LOSING. Also the Tidal Walls are not bases, they are mobile fortifications, not a base. A base is a place where you can sleep, fix vehicles, store ammunition and fuel, have places for wounded, and have a place for local commanders to plan. Also, Marines are highly vulnerable to conventional tactics. They were broken down into chapters so that the Imperial guard can overwhelm them and dragged them down into direct confrontation. Space Marines act as Shock troops, they are portrayed as strike forces that hit the enemy in lightning raids, do as much damage as possible and leave. The battle on Taros where the Space Marines of the Avenging Sons brought a strike force down to kill the planetary governor was a great story that you should read. The Tau were actually portrayed in a way that made sense as they used their numerical advantage and firepower to overwhelm the Avenging Sons. The Sons did a lot of damage but the Tau realizing they needed to utilize their numbers and bringing in their Crisis suits were able to force the Avenging Sons to withdraw. They beat the Avenging Sons because they realized that super numbers and constant pressure was needed.
bleak wrote: On on your side you keep saying the tau shouldn't have all these technology because it 'doesn't work'. So you're saying, bipedal mechas are? I mean, I accept the battlesuits so I don't mind the imperium having mechs. But you can have psykers making building sized titans invisible and that is fine with you? Wow
You obviously did not read what i wrote. I said Tau vehicles look like crap because they are a failed fusion of anime and a defined western style. It's like watching GI Joe in its 80s arts style and then in comes Gundam 8th MS Team. Also, their mechs are very silly looking because at least the Knights, titans, and what have you have reinforced ankles, feet that would work, and their art corresponds the the art style of the entire game. You can whine about titans becoming invisible by psykers but that stuff has always been in the game. The Tau are a faction that is the least played with an art style and a fluff that is in direct confrontation with the game itself. They cannot be written without a Deus Ex Machina to make them win.
bleak wrote: And don't talk about stats, because the tide wall is a battlefield debris, and they can never be destroyed, so melta and other things wouldn't work. And why not pit calgar with the swarmlord then?
I own a Forge World Warlord Titan. The Warlord Titan has a rule called World Burner which allows it to attack and destroy terrain which includes Battlefield debris. So the Walls can totally be destroyed and in the Kauyon book the Tidal walls were destroyed, so at this point you are just making strawmen arguments. Your Fanboyism is very very sad and you should really shut up. Calgar can still beat a swarmlord and its a flip of a coin every time unless Calgar shoots him up. The Swarmlord no longer forces rerolls of invul saves and instead instakills on 6s which is worthless against a model with Eternal Warrior.
bleak wrote: Seems like you are just taking things at face value and treating everything you see as something human, which shouldn't be. I have time and time again stated that sure, the writers did miss out on alot of points, but this is by right a tau release therefore they had to make things seem cooler than normal. But then you as a fanboy have to rage so hard at it because your favorite race got pawned really bad. I was fine when the dark eldar made a fool out of the tau by making them give test subjects. I was quite impressed how the space wolves walked underwater to an underwater base to destroy the tau. I am also quite excited to know that the orks are really breaking the tau spirit no matter what they do. But what I cannot agree with you is that you are raging because your faction lost. If you are so logical why don't you write for GW? I'm sure they need someone like you
Now you write this absurd ad hominem because you cannot think of anything valid but a "nu uh". Grow up kid, you are posting nonsense and your writing is showing anger. If you cannot refute an argument and just dismiss anyone telling you that something doesn't work because of the facts than you should except it. Are you getting paid by GW to defend the Tau? I have every right to criticize bad writing, you can defend it all you want, however it doesn't change that Tau writing is bad. You arguing with a soldier that Tau tactics are realistic is a show of your raging fanboyism. Only a fanboy would argue that an Officer in the Marine corps doesn't know about tactics. I am sorry i find this hilarious. As for your attempted barb.. Lets just say you may be really angry in two years.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/11/27 05:19:55
You don't need to say you are a gamer to prove you are.
The gameplay purpose wise, orbital bombardment cannot destroy battlefield debris so you are the one grabbing at straws here, first saying the marines can shoot melta at it. Yes so much fanboyism from your side too, at least that's both of us.
So I need to shut up while you can freely criticise the bad writing? Wow, at least now I know where you stand. I didn't say that you didn't know about tactics, but giving a reason why shadowsun's tactics could work. I'm not angry, just pretty funny to see how 'mature' you are trying to talk down to someone who is defending the authors who did put in work towards the stories. I have a raging fanboyism over all the fluff that gw puts out because it is entertaining(and at least I am able to take being called that), but at least that's better than being a fanboy who defends his faction and arguing just because his faction lost to another faction in the other faction's release.
Angry at tau losing? Lol, sorry, but I think I take it better than you.
I love how your primary defense is that he's a dumb fanboy who is grasping at straws for his entire defense and he's soo stoopid and such a fething scrub and such a bludy fenboi. Now, onto the good part! The red is my rebuff of much of what you said.
