You know I'd actually love GW putting their money where there mouth is and becoming a model company.
Start producing in metal again, and real resin.
Release things like busts, 52 or 75mm models that don't suit their game scale.
40k civilian models that don't belong on a battlefield.
GW can't claim to be a model company while only producing models in what is very much the gaming, not display, material and only producing models that have rules and a place in their game.
jonolikespie wrote: You know I'd actually love GW putting their money where there mouth is and becoming a model company.
Start producing in metal again, and real resin.
Release things like busts, 52 or 75mm models that don't suit their game scale.
40k civilian models that don't belong on a battlefield.
GW can't claim to be a model company while only producing models in what is very much the gaming, not display, material and only producing models that have rules and a place in their game.
Have a look at the Warhammer app. Here you find new stuff every day, from Black Library, to Warhammer Digital, to Apps & Games. This shows that GW is working hard to increase sales at all levels.
wuestenfux wrote: Have a look at the Warhammer app. Here you find new stuff every day, from Black Library, to Warhammer Digital, to Apps & Games. This shows that GW is working hard to increase sales at all levels.
If only there was something they could do to find out what their customers actually wanted. Some sort of research, say, perhaps into their market.
Bartali wrote: He’s been very competent in pushing his vision of 40K out to the world.
And his "vision" is one of almost unbelievable incompetence. You could write an entire book on the way that Jervis fails to grasp incredibly basic concepts of game design and, through either stupidity and/or sheer narcissism, proudly declares that he has found the One True Way To Play Games. He's a small child smearing the contents of his diaper all over the walls and saying "look mommy, I made a picture".
Come on now, I don't really believe this. JJ is oldschool, his roots are likely in the old historical wargaming societies of yore. In those circles, even today, you don't really have points or organization charts, you talk with your opponent to set up a "narrative" if you aren't refighting a particular battle from history, and you have a good time and discuss the finer points of history while doing so. It's clear that's the "vision" that JJ has for 40k. To be perfectly honest... it sounds like a good concept. I play(ed) Warmachine, which is much more balanced and competitive, yet games feel very mechanical and lackluster, and the fluff almost never comes into it. Part of why I wanted to dabble in 40k again is because the background is very rich (silly in some cases such as with Wulf McWolf the Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf with the Wolf Talisman et all) but the background is intriguing. The problem is that 40k sucks eggs when it comes to pick-up games, and not everyone has a gaming club/good friends that they can "fix" rules issues with and decide amongst themselves that we won't bring FW titans to play except in really big points and even then only when it fits, etc.
JJ's vision isn't necessarily wrong, per se, because that's how most historical gaming works. The thing is that 40k is trying to be more commercialized than that, and fails because of those design points.
They can easily measure downloads at all levels. I think the downloads of the AoS update files can be good hint how good the game is going. I guess the download curve has decreased exponentially from August to December.
That tells them whether or not people are buying. It doesn't tell them why.
But it can count as some kind of market research. Asking what customers want would be awesome. But then you have to ask the right questions which can only be set if they do market research.
Bartali wrote: He’s been very competent in pushing his vision of 40K out to the world.
And his "vision" is one of almost unbelievable incompetence. You could write an entire book on the way that Jervis fails to grasp incredibly basic concepts of game design and, through either stupidity and/or sheer narcissism, proudly declares that he has found the One True Way To Play Games. He's a small child smearing the contents of his diaper all over the walls and saying "look mommy, I made a picture".
Come on now, I don't really believe this. JJ is oldschool, his roots are likely in the old historical wargaming societies of yore. In those circles, even today, you don't really have points or organization charts, you talk with your opponent to set up a "narrative" if you aren't refighting a particular battle from history, and you have a good time and discuss the finer points of history while doing so. It's clear that's the "vision" that JJ has for 40k. To be perfectly honest... it sounds like a good concept. I play(ed) Warmachine, which is much more balanced and competitive, yet games feel very mechanical and lackluster, and the fluff almost never comes into it. Part of why I wanted to dabble in 40k again is because the background is very rich (silly in some cases such as with Wulf McWolf the Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf with the Wolf Talisman et all) but the background is intriguing. The problem is that 40k sucks eggs when it comes to pick-up games, and not everyone has a gaming club/good friends that they can "fix" rules issues with and decide amongst themselves that we won't bring FW titans to play except in really big points and even then only when it fits, etc.
JJ's vision isn't necessarily wrong, per se, because that's how most historical gaming works. The thing is that 40k is trying to be more commercialized than that, and fails because of those design points.
I disagree with this. As an old-timer historicals player, my experience is that narrative scenarios are part of the fun but certainly not the majority. Straight up competitive battles using points, campaigns, and recreation of historical scenarios are equally popular.
There is no one right way to play wargames. There is room for all these approaches with the right set of rules. What is certain is that you can play narrative games using tight competition rules, but you can't play tight competition games using 'narrative' rules.
GW ought to appeal to the widest spectrum of players to maximise sales of the one game.
That tells them whether or not people are buying. It doesn't tell them why.
Does it really matter if the players tell GW why they think they buy models ?
I'm quite sure that most players don't know it themselves. While GW might have a good guess.
Some GW experiments I can think off that don't need extra player input. Aside from that they do have communication with their stores and we all vomit our opinons on the web
GW: Changing some Tzeeentch 40k daemon rules
Results: Sales went up by x for y amount of time.
GW: upped the prices of a and not model b
Results: Sales went up or down by x and y
GW: Released book with some formations that buffed models lacking in sales
Results: Sales went up or down by x
GW: Models are released before the codex.
Results: Impulse buying went up or down by x
GW: Made new expensive models with good rules
Results: Sales went up or down by x
GW: Made new expensive good looking models
Results: Sales went up or down by x
I am saying that the community underestimates their knowledge of the costumer. The fact that they don't hand out surveys or openly hire external marketing research experts doesn't mean that they don't have good methods to figure how we would react to future changes they make.
There is no one right way to play wargames. There is room for all these approaches with the right set of rules. What is certain is that you can play narrative games using tight competition rules, but you can't play tight competition games using 'narrative' rules.
But that is not what JJ is saying. He says that we should some sort of rpg/historical game, and that the thing the majority plays is the wrong thing. Followed by how rules/balance/points are bad and forging the narrative is the bomb.
I wonder if he even knows that FtN now stands for.
vipoid wrote: Methods that require no market research whatsoever?
I guess they're employing psykers to foresee the future.
The point is that you don't need psykers of expensive paper pushers who hand out surveys, when you have actual sales data that shows the responses of your costumers to all the changes you make.
The point is that you don't need psykers of expensive paper pushers who hand out surveys, when you have actual sales data that shows the responses of your costumers to all the changes you make.
Do you have any proof that this data is in any way comprehensive, or that they're using it at all? Or, are you just making it up because you can't bear the idea that GW is run by idiots?
I mean, despite numerous cost-cutting methods and significant price-hikes across the board, their revenue has been declining for years. That really doesn't sound like the mark of a company that's in touch with what its customers want.
I don't have the data for GW since I don't work there. But I have worked in some other companies and seen the data and plans of their competitors and isn't just used it is one of those things they build their strategy around.
I am basing my assumption on the principle of occams razor.
There are 2 competing hypotheses here:
-GW uses their sales data just like all their competitors.
-GW is the exception and doesn't use their sales data at all.
We have no reason to assume the more unlikely hypothesis until evidence is shown.
Bartali wrote: He’s been very competent in pushing his vision of 40K out to the world.
And his "vision" is one of almost unbelievable incompetence. You could write an entire book on the way that Jervis fails to grasp incredibly basic concepts of game design and, through either stupidity and/or sheer narcissism, proudly declares that he has found the One True Way To Play Games. He's a small child smearing the contents of his diaper all over the walls and saying "look mommy, I made a picture".
Come on now, I don't really believe this. JJ is oldschool, his roots are likely in the old historical wargaming societies of yore. In those circles, even today, you don't really have points or organization charts, you talk with your opponent to set up a "narrative" if you aren't refighting a particular battle from history, and you have a good time and discuss the finer points of history while doing so. It's clear that's the "vision" that JJ has for 40k. To be perfectly honest... it sounds like a good concept. I play(ed) Warmachine, which is much more balanced and competitive, yet games feel very mechanical and lackluster, and the fluff almost never comes into it. Part of why I wanted to dabble in 40k again is because the background is very rich (silly in some cases such as with Wulf McWolf the Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf with the Wolf Talisman et all) but the background is intriguing. The problem is that 40k sucks eggs when it comes to pick-up games, and not everyone has a gaming club/good friends that they can "fix" rules issues with and decide amongst themselves that we won't bring FW titans to play except in really big points and even then only when it fits, etc.
JJ's vision isn't necessarily wrong, per se, because that's how most historical gaming works. The thing is that 40k is trying to be more commercialized than that, and fails because of those design points.
I disagree with this. As an old-timer historicals player, my experience is that narrative scenarios are part of the fun but certainly not the majority. Straight up competitive battles using points, campaigns, and recreation of historical scenarios are equally popular.
There is no one right way to play wargames. There is room for all these approaches with the right set of rules. What is certain is that you can play narrative games using tight competition rules, but you can't play tight competition games using 'narrative' rules.
GW ought to appeal to the widest spectrum of players to maximise sales of the one game.
I stand corrected, then. I don't play historicals (want to, but nobody around me does) but frequent TMP often and have the old books (Featherstone, Bath, etc.) that I read from time to time and they seem to indicate back in those days that you didn't use points and the like, and I get that sort of impression from GW/JJ about how 40k "should" be played, although the irony there is they do nothing to help you play in that manner. I would honestly love for a GW/40k-ized version of Featherstone's Wargame Campaigns...
I mean, despite numerous cost-cutting methods and significant price-hikes across the board, their revenue has been declining for years. That really doesn't sound like the mark of a company that's in touch with what its customers want.
It isn't about what makes you happy, you might not even be their primary target group. It is about what makes the biggest sales and profits, not what makes games happy. I have no data for it ( and I would love to get my hads on it if I could) but it might just be that impulse sales or sales of models that will never be used on the table are actually a major part if not the largest part of their sales in contrast to what the majority of the vocal on-line community seems to believe.
oldzoggy wrote: I don't have the data for GW since I don't work there. But I have worked in some other companies and seen the data and plans of their competitors and isn't just used it is one of those things they build their strategy around.
I am basing my assumption on the principle of occams razor.
There are 2 competing hypotheses here:
-GW uses their sales data just like all their competitors.
-GW is the exception and doesn't use their sales data at all.
We have no reason to assume the more unlikely hypothesis until evidence is shown.
Does GW constantly bragging that they don't do market research count as evidence?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
oldzoggy wrote: It isn't about what makes you happy, you might not even be their primary target group. It is about what makes the biggest sales and profits
...
So, GW is losing revenue because they are focussing on whatever makes the most revenue?
GW press statement wrote:Our market is a niche market made up of people who want to collect our miniatures. They tend to be male, middle
class, discerning teenagers and adults. We do no demographic research, we have no focus groups, we do not ask the market what it wants. These things
are otiose in a niche
shows just that they
do not ask the market what it wants
you don't need to if you have good sales data and are using it correctly.
Wasting money on some experts who try to figure out what makes you happy is just a waste of money if you have solid sales data and are using it correctly.
The fact that GW does not care to ask you stuff does not mean that they don't act like all the other companies in the branch.
Lots of companies don't use focus groups or use surveys. It is like your local bakery sure they could order a focus group study. But why the hell would they ever considerer that when they know exactly how the town and his sales reacts to price fluctuation, marketing and new products.
oldzoggy wrote: I don't have the data for GW since I don't work there. But I have worked in some other companies and seen the data and plans of their competitors and isn't just used it is one of those things they build their strategy around.
I am basing my assumption on the principle of occams razor.
There are 2 competing hypotheses here:
-GW uses their sales data just like all their competitors.
-GW is the exception and doesn't use their sales data at all.
We have no reason to assume the more unlikely hypothesis until evidence is shown.
Trouble with this approach is it only tells you half the story, and it tells you nothing about things you don't sell.
Firstly, models are as often an emotional purchase as they are a deliberately fulfilling a need (OMG that's so cool! vs I need this to field a legal force.) so it's quite possible that there is correlation without causation in the sales data. (New models come out with new rules, sales spike. Is that because everyone likes the models or the new rules are strong? New rules come out without new models, sales spike, is this because the rules have stimulated demand for that specific model, or simply stimulated interest in the army as a whole? Is there an assumption among the customers that new rules = new models and therefore people who like the existing model pick them up while they're available?)
But the biggest issue with using sales data is that it has absolutely no means of telling you why customers didn't buy something. Say they release an Eldar Avatar, and sell 6k units. Now, for the sake of argument, let's say there's 15k Eldar players in the world. How, using sales data, do you interpret why those 9k players who didn't buy one chose not to?
Sales data tells you what's selling, market research can tell why you're not.
There is no one right way to play wargames. There is room for all these approaches with the right set of rules. What is certain is that you can play narrative games using tight competition rules, but you can't play tight competition games using 'narrative' rules.
But that is not what JJ is saying. He says that we should some sort of rpg/historical game, and that the thing the majority plays is the wrong thing. Followed by how rules/balance/points are bad and forging the narrative is the bomb.
I wonder if he even knows that FtN now stands for.
Well, the fact is that 40K was a lot bigger five years ago than it is now. That is evident from the sales statistics.
Sales data tells you what's selling, market research can tell why you're not.
I agree that sales product doesn't tell you why they are not buying some products. Ideally you could solve this by doing marketing research.
But the real question is if marketing research and focus groups in a niche are good reliable enough to give a better answer then some experimentations in changing the product or new releases.
The thing is that it would be hard very hard compose a decent focus group and to justify that your focus group actually is a good representation of GW's costumer base.
I for one have no Idea how to do this, and I'm a 40k player. You could ask a local player group or some tournament players but that would guarantee that you are not getting a good representation.
Just handing out leaflets in the stores might work but has the risk to backfire and no commercial focus group companies are likely to have a decent database Gw costumers.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the positive side if you manage it GW and other nice companies might make you rich.
Experimenting with your releases is ludicrously expensive in comparison to producing some solid research data.
The issue for GW is the way they've conducted themselves to this point. If they'd not retreated from every centralised platform of feedback then they'd hardly need to spend anything, as we'd be telling them, they'd just need to invest some time in filtering out the bile and hyperbole from the genuine trends of interest and dissatisfaction. Something the sales data would be invaluable in doing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: There's plenty of companies who already specialise in doing exactly what GW would need, GW just need to acknowledge they need it.
I mean, despite numerous cost-cutting methods and significant price-hikes across the board, their revenue has been declining for years. That really doesn't sound like the mark of a company that's in touch with what its customers want.
It isn't about what makes you happy, you might not even be their primary target group. It is about what makes the biggest sales and profits, not what makes games happy. I have no data for it ( and I would love to get my hads on it if I could) but it might just be that impulse sales or sales of models that will never be used on the table are actually a major part if not the largest part of their sales in contrast to what the majority of the vocal on-line community seems to believe.
That's exactly why you need narket research. To find out WHY people buy your products. Raw numbers are only half the story and a half truth can be worse than a lie.
Kilkrazy wrote: How many new games did GW publish between 2001 and 2010?
Several? I know their Lord of the Rings game came out during that period, and BFG was released around the same time. I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.
I can't help but think that a couple of people in this thread are caught up on the idea that market research only means looking at what people buy and what they would buy. That's only a small part of it.
For example I'm sitting here in Australia where GW is dying a quick death. Now GW knows our sales data and can see we are buying less and less, but what they can't see is if we are buying less models in general or if we are in a golden age of model wargaming, spending more than ever before and just not buying GW.
GW don't know how many potential customers they have here, they don't know what prices we can bear before we stop buying, they don't know what kinds of products we are wanting.
Honestly, look at Age of Sigma.
Look at the reaction that received from the fans and how poorly it is selling.
Now tell me GW do sufficient market research when they invested heavily in a product no one wanted.
Kilkrazy wrote: Okay, of the games mentioned, the publication dates are:
1999: BFG 2001: LoTR 2007: Space Hulk 3rd edition
2011: Dread Fleet
2015: Assassinorum
So basically GW produced one new game between 2001 and 2010.
How much new 40K stuff (rules) did they produce in the same time period? New editions don't count.
From the top of my head I think they had Tau, Necrons (They had stuff before but their first codex was 2002), Eye of Terror (for sure), some new Sisters stuff (and yes this counts considering how rare it is), Grey Knights came out around that time... I'm sure I'm missing a ton too D:
Kilkrazy wrote: Okay, of the games mentioned, the publication dates are:
1999: BFG 2001: LoTR 2007: Space Hulk 3rd edition
2011: Dread Fleet
2015: Assassinorum
So basically GW produced one new game between 2001 and 2010.
How much new 40K stuff (rules) did they produce in the same time period? New editions don't count.
From the top of my head I think they had Tau, Necrons (They had stuff before but their first codex was 2002), Eye of Terror (for sure), some new Sisters stuff (and yes this counts considering how rare it is), Grey Knights came out around that time... I'm sure I'm missing a ton too D:
I mean actual new games or rules expansions like Apocalypse, Cities of Death, and Planetstrike, not new units. It's so easy to make a new unit that it doesn't count as 'real work'. A new codex is just a collection of unchanged, updated, and a few new, units, unless it's a brand new faction like Tau in 2001 -- there! I found one!!
1999: BFG 2001: LoTR, Tau.
2007: Space Hulk 3rd edition
2011: Dread Fleet
2015: Assassinorum
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Filch wrote: GW does not care about you. So stop giving them money.
That's what I did. I was not alone, according to the annual sales result.
Bartali wrote: He’s been very competent in pushing his vision of 40K out to the world.
And his "vision" is one of almost unbelievable incompetence. You could write an entire book on the way that Jervis fails to grasp incredibly basic concepts of game design and, through either stupidity and/or sheer narcissism, proudly declares that he has found the One True Way To Play Games. He's a small child smearing the contents of his diaper all over the walls and saying "look mommy, I made a picture".
Come on now, I don't really believe this. JJ is oldschool, his roots are likely in the old historical wargaming societies of yore. In those circles, even today, you don't really have points or organization charts, you talk with your opponent to set up a "narrative" if you aren't refighting a particular battle from history, and you have a good time and discuss the finer points of history while doing so. It's clear that's the "vision" that JJ has for 40k. To be perfectly honest... it sounds like a good concept. I play(ed) Warmachine, which is much more balanced and competitive, yet games feel very mechanical and lackluster, and the fluff almost never comes into it. Part of why I wanted to dabble in 40k again is because the background is very rich (silly in some cases such as with Wulf McWolf the Wolf Lord riding a Thunderwolf with the Wolf Talisman et all) but the background is intriguing. The problem is that 40k sucks eggs when it comes to pick-up games, and not everyone has a gaming club/good friends that they can "fix" rules issues with and decide amongst themselves that we won't bring FW titans to play except in really big points and even then only when it fits, etc.
JJ's vision isn't necessarily wrong, per se, because that's how most historical gaming works. The thing is that 40k is trying to be more commercialized than that, and fails because of those design points.
I disagree with this. As an old-timer historicals player, my experience is that narrative scenarios are part of the fun but certainly not the majority. Straight up competitive battles using points, campaigns, and recreation of historical scenarios are equally popular.
There is no one right way to play wargames. There is room for all these approaches with the right set of rules. What is certain is that you can play narrative games using tight competition rules, but you can't play tight competition games using 'narrative' rules.
GW ought to appeal to the widest spectrum of players to maximise sales of the one game.
It perhaps should be mentioned that Rick Priestley and Alessio Calvatore are involved in another Nottingham company (Warlord) which is doing historicals with rulesets that works for both tournament and narrative play, and appear to be doing quite well.
Personally, I'm on the verge of going all in on Bolt Action as it appears to capture that mix of competitive/narrative that 40K used to do
Well that kind of a depends what the faction gets. If the faction gets a new codex that just stright up ignores most of the basic rules, then we get a new game.
Every new eldar codex does something like that. Wood elfs could do it for sometime in WFB, where everyone was playing WFB, but they played w40k.
Well that kind of a depends what the faction gets. If the faction gets a new codex that just stright up ignores most of the basic rules, then we get a new game.
Every new eldar codex does something like that. Wood elfs could do it for sometime in WFB, where everyone was playing WFB, but they played w40k.
Adding a faction is nothing like creating an entirely new game. Even factions like Tau, who play very differently from the other factions in many ways, is a somewhat small subset of rules when compared to another game's primary rulebook, providing the fluff is cut out.
Perhaps the faction in question is playing a slightly different game, but they are still using the same to hit chart, to wound chart, leadership, movement rules, etc etc. Exceptions or bonuses are just grafted onto the rules, somewhat akin to how orks treat a looted tank.
Wood elves played a different game, but they still used the fantasy rules and no one who played was completely thrown by how they operated. They just had an army made up mostly of skirmishers and archers, with only a few units being blocks of models (glade guard and cavarly I think?). They still used the standard FoC, standard point cost model, standard lores (in addition to their own, which wasn't very good in most editions), used d6's, had armor values or invul saves, same USRs and unit types with few exceptions (some archers had a +1 to AP or str if they were close...can't remember which).
Skaven also played a different game, since the cowards could become the toughest to move troops in the game. So did dwarves, since they had no magic unless an artifact is taken and use different rules to dispel and create weapons. So did VC, since they were fearless and crumbled if the leader died, and lost models from leadership instead of fleeing. So did Daemons (daemons were probably the most different, tbh). High elves, with their ASF, did as well. Ogres were all multi wound models all the time.
The point is, most of the armies were very different from each other. A few, empire, lizzies, dark elves, were less different or exotic but still had many unique models that made them different.
Eldar still make sense to other players, even if they appear to be broken in many ways. When I read 36" str 6 ap 6 heavy 4 on a jetbike, as a Tau player or marine player I understand how they work. I don't need to learn a new system.
Compare this to necromunda, where many of the rules are dramatically different despite the game seeming similar. Armor, to hit in regards to cover, targeting, and other rules are very different.
Compare Fantasy to 40k and we see larger differences than exist in any one codex. They have static combat bonuses in fantasy which 40k does not, many weapons roll a d6 for wounds caused, magic used to be different (not as much anymore), movement rules and how to build a unit used to be different, charges work very differently, they have different USRs, the models have different unit types with different rules...the games are incredibly different. Maybe some edition changes have been similar in scope (2nd to 3rd?) but most have not. Certainly no codex or faction has been equal to that in size and scope.
Keep in mind this is 8th edition and earlier. AoS is very different from 40k, but it's so unpopular I don't want to bring it into the discussion.
If we compare WMH and 40k or Fantasy it gets even worse. They share very little in common rules wise. The 2d6 model alone, having defense values, focus/fury, and the stats being on a 1-20 scale instead of 1-10 means a 40k player can't pick up a WMH game easily. If anything they have a harder time, since they have to unlearn many habits that work in 40k but don't translate well.
Adding a faction is nothing like creating an entirely new game.
I don't know, maybe I am missing something but 7th pre decurion style armies and post decurion style armies seems like 2 games. Before necron, people claimed that 7th is going to be streamlined with weaker codex being the norm, with lower power curve armies. Then necron came and 7th was suddenly about how many hundreds of points in free rules can you get for your army.
Wood elves played a different game, but they still used the fantasy rules and no one who played was completely thrown by how they operated.
Maybe I remember a different version of Wood elfs, but they were not using fantasy rules at all. Everyone else had blocks of troops, but they played with skirmish units only with characters and eagls , deployed a ton of extra wood durning deployment and later added extra ones. It was impossible to get a charge off against them, and some armies couldn't even get them in to their charge arc. And if somehow one did they would flee and charging unit would either fail charge or end up in a wood, sometimes both things. Compering to that skaven just have extra and different rules, all armies have those or at least should, as sometimes GW does make a marines without the cool stuff codex like BA or DA in the past.
Adding a faction is nothing like creating an entirely new game.
I don't know, maybe I am missing something but 7th pre decurion style armies and post decurion style armies seems like 2 games. Before necron, people claimed that 7th is going to be streamlined with weaker codex being the norm, with lower power curve armies. Then necron came and 7th was suddenly about how many hundreds of points in free rules can you get for your army.
But the game was still the same in terms of rules.
Decurion grants +1 RP. Nobody who has played against necrons doesn't understand what this does or how it works, and very few are going to be confused on why it is so powerful. It's powerful and changes the meta, but it's not something completely alien that requires research to understand.
If I said something in fantasy gave you +2 CR, a 40k player would not understand what that meant. What is Cr? Is it good? Is +2 powerful, how many points is it worth? Is it army dependent or is it always going to be worth its points?
Or if something always grants heavy cover. 40k, that would be a 4+ or 3+ cover save, but in fantasy, it would be (arguably) better and confer a strong penalty to hit.
In WMH, if I said something causes blind, you would think you know what it meant, since 40k has blind, but in WMH blind is dramatically different and you'd severely underestimate how powerful it is.
Because they are different games, with different rulesets.
Maybe I remember a different version of Wood elfs, but they were not using fantasy rules at all. Everyone else had blocks of troops, but they played with skirmish units only with characters and eagls , deployed a ton of extra wood durning deployment and later added extra ones. It was impossible to get a charge off against them, and some armies couldn't even get them in to their charge arc. And if somehow one did they would flee and charging unit would either fail charge or end up in a wood, sometimes both things. Compering to that skaven just have extra and different rules, all armies have those or at least should, as sometimes GW does make a marines without the cool stuff codex like BA or DA in the past.
You said it yourself, they used skirmisher rules with flying monster backup. They referred to rules in the game to play. How is their playstyle so different from undeads or demons, or ogres?
VC had army wide undead, wood elf have army wide skirmish.
Ogres had army wide multi-wound models, daemons had army wide invuls.
Dark elves had army wide hatred, high elves had army wide ASF.
Wood elves also had blocks of troops, and you really had to take at least 1 if you ever wanted to win any combat ever. It wasn't a ton of extra wood unless you took their lore, which was bad and easy to stop. Wood elves weren't a power caster force. Empire could cast better than them, an army like lizzies would just destroy them magically.
Most armies had 1 army wide special rule, this was not unique to wood elves. Someone playing against wood elves was not confused about how the skirmisher rules worked...most armies had at least 1 unit that had the rule after all.
Wood elves weren't even a strong army for most of their life time. They lacked killing power and could be shoot at with heavy weapons that ignored to hit rolls, and many armies had fast moving units that could catch them. Guns would eventually do the job since they were so weak defensively.
Skaven, meanwhile, would easily field 200 troops that were leadership 9 and had other special rules on top of it. They could FIRE INTO THEIR OWN TROOPS and have heroes lead from the back. Skaven were a dramatically different force from the rest of the game, and were also a much stronger army than wood elves.
A skink heavy lizard man force actually acted very similar to a wood elf army, outside of terrain placement. Skinks could skirmish and had 2 shot blow darts, and would flee. One of the campigian books that came out created an all skink force that was better at being wood elves than the wood elves were, since poison was so good and they were a lot cheaper.
Regardless, an army having the skirmisher special rule army wide is not as different as an entirely new rule set. Case in point, the skirmisher USR doesn't exist in 40k or WMH, and is considered the standard model of play. The block movement and hero placement would completely throw 40k and WMH players, while even a wood elf player would understand it.
New games or fundamentally new rules sets in the period:
Battlefleet Gothic - 1999
Mordheim - 1999
Inquisitor - 2001
Lord Of The Rings - 2001
Epic: Armageddon - 2003
Aeronautica Imperialis - 2007
War Of The Ring - 2009
Space Hulk - 2009
versus for 40k:
Warhammer 40,000 Battle For Macragge - 2004
Warhammer 40,000 Cities Of Death - 2006
Warhammer 40,000 Apocalypse - 2007
Warhammer 40,000 Assault On Black Reach - 2008
Warhammer 40,000 Planetstrike - 2009
(plus faction codices)
(also note there's a couple of editions of WHFB in there - Skull Pass definitely falls inside the 1999-2009 bracket)
Since 2010, the only new games have been dreadfleet and execution force - the 'new edition' of space hulk is essentially a reprint - and The Hobbit - which has a large enough new model range and enough 'tweaks' to the rules to justify calling it at least a new edition, even if I'd question calling it a 'new game'.
Think of forums like wow forums. Everyone enjoying playing is busy modeling and playing. Every butt hurt cry baby is on the forum announcing their quiting
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Think of forums like wow forums. Everyone enjoying playing is busy modeling and playing. Every butt hurt cry baby is on the forum announcing their quiting
As a WoW player, I disagree to a small extent. There's a lot more complaining/criticism at 40k (relatively speaking, in size I imagine WoW would have more) from players. In WoW you have people cry that they got beaten in PVP by X class (usually Rogue or Mage) but it's more or less a "heat of the moment" type of anger, especially in regards to the common complaints of PVP, not getting a piece of loot or not being able to down a boss.
GW/40k gets a lot more frequent, more common and longer-lasting hatred over what they do. It's not uncommon, for example, to have people who used to play 40k years ago repeatedly say how they want to play but GW is ruining the game (I am/was one of them!), you usually don't see someone who quit WoW in Wrath come around frequently to say that Blizzard is garbage and WoW is terrible (the occasional troll, maybe, but not often) while you frequently see veterans who used to play 40k during 3rd-5th edition keep tabs on the game/company and chime in to say how terrible 7th edition has become.
This is far beyond "butt hurt cry baby" and I feel it's a little dismissive and insulting to refer to people who dislike GW in that tone.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Think of forums like wow forums. Everyone enjoying playing is busy modeling and playing. Every butt hurt cry baby is on the forum announcing their quiting
As a WoW player, I disagree to a small extent. There's a lot more complaining/criticism at 40k (relatively speaking, in size I imagine WoW would have more) from players. In WoW you have people cry that they got beaten in PVP by X class (usually Rogue or Mage) but it's more or less a "heat of the moment" type of anger, especially in regards to the common complaints of PVP, not getting a piece of loot or not being able to down a boss.
GW/40k gets a lot more frequent, more common and longer-lasting hatred over what they do. It's not uncommon, for example, to have people who used to play 40k years ago repeatedly say how they want to play but GW is ruining the game (I am/was one of them!), you usually don't see someone who quit WoW in Wrath come around frequently to say that Blizzard is garbage and WoW is terrible (the occasional troll, maybe, but not often) while you frequently see veterans who used to play 40k during 3rd-5th edition keep tabs on the game/company and chime in to say how terrible 7th edition has become.
This is far beyond "butt hurt cry baby" and I feel it's a little dismissive and insulting to refer to people who dislike GW in that tone.
If anything it shows that there's a whole bunch of people circling, waiting for GW to sort out 40K so they can dive back in again. I know i'm one of them.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Think of forums like wow forums. Everyone enjoying playing is busy modeling and playing. Every butt hurt cry baby is on the forum announcing their quiting
As a WoW player, I disagree to a small extent. There's a lot more complaining/criticism at 40k (relatively speaking, in size I imagine WoW would have more) from players. In WoW you have people cry that they got beaten in PVP by X class (usually Rogue or Mage) but it's more or less a "heat of the moment" type of anger, especially in regards to the common complaints of PVP, not getting a piece of loot or not being able to down a boss.
GW/40k gets a lot more frequent, more common and longer-lasting hatred over what they do. It's not uncommon, for example, to have people who used to play 40k years ago repeatedly say how they want to play but GW is ruining the game (I am/was one of them!), you usually don't see someone who quit WoW in Wrath come around frequently to say that Blizzard is garbage and WoW is terrible (the occasional troll, maybe, but not often) while you frequently see veterans who used to play 40k during 3rd-5th edition keep tabs on the game/company and chime in to say how terrible 7th edition has become.
This is far beyond "butt hurt cry baby" and I feel it's a little dismissive and insulting to refer to people who dislike GW in that tone.
If anything it shows that there's a whole bunch of people circling, waiting for GW to sort out 40K so they can dive back in again. I know i'm one of them.
So am I, although I still am torn between really wanting to play and not. I don't know. I don't get the right feeling out of Warmachine, but I'm not sure if 40k can scratch that itch due to not wanting to drop hundreds just to get started again.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Think of forums like wow forums. Everyone enjoying playing is busy modeling and playing. Every butt hurt cry baby is on the forum announcing their quiting
Or people only play a wargame once or twice a week maybe? If you're playing a computer game, you're using a computer for something other than posting on a forum, war gamers have plenty of time between games, or even between coats, to post online without impinging on their gaming time at all.
But sure, every person who ever posted anything critical online is just a butt hurt crybaby.
Now that you mention it, I can play around 20 Starcraft matches in the time of a single 40K game where I will likely be trashed due to no fault of my own.
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Think of forums like wow forums. Everyone enjoying playing is busy modeling and playing. Every butt hurt cry baby is on the forum announcing their quiting
ArmchairArbiter wrote: Think of forums like wow forums. Everyone enjoying playing is busy modeling and playing. Every butt hurt cry baby is on the forum announcing their quiting
Rather a leap of logic there.
Forums are typically for talking about the shared experience.
Unfortunately the shared experience lately is 40k is not working all that well.
So like others who chimed-in, I wait, I paint, I look on occasion to see if GW will get around to being serious about the rules.
No drama required.
Now when you call some forum users "butt hurt cry babies", well I guess that feels like a safe statement with under 30 posts.
BTW "butt hurt":
Um, yeah, I do play CSM among other armies but I like some spikes with my Landraider and not the other way around.
How do you move that thing around without getting punctured?
40k is a shadow of what it once was.
It is still an awfully big IP: tons of books, a few good console/pc games, a long history of games in that universe and a massive catalogue of models.
I will probably be playing a version of Necromunda with many of the various faction models like how Inquisitor was intended.
FFG is slowly getting quite large on the Star Wars IP with Armada and X-wing as are other competitive product.
To put a positive spin on things, I hope against hope that they will get serious about improving the rules, that is why parts of the collection are not getting sold off.
You know it's funny, I was all in on starting 40k again. I even bought a box of Berzerkers and was scouring eBay looking for deals and bitz to customize my force. But then it hit me: I'd still be spending like $200+ on it, even to start out with an Escalation League. I'd be playing an assault army in a game that has gakked on assault for like 4 editions. I know for a fact the minute I run into someone who just wipes out my entire army in one shooting phase, I'm going to say feth it and likely want to quit again because that's no fun at all. The second I run up against someone spamming Riptides or IKs or Wraithknights or worse, I'm going to walk away with a "What the feth?" kind of feeling and feel cheated and like I just wasted hours of my time. The second someone wants to bring some OP model from Forgeworld that they spent as much as I pay for my car on, I'm going to be "What is this crap?" and feel dejected again because it's some weird thing I haven't seen, that is likely way too strong and stinks of "pay to win". I know it's going to happen, because it happened before in 2nd edition (Armorcast Warhound Titan) and 3rd (Wraithlords, Eldar Starcannon spam, Dark Eldar dark lance spam, IG Armored Company). And I get the feeling that it will happen one day.
So while I love the background and even like the miniatures.. why would I subject myself to that? Why is it worth it? I always hate how wishy-washy I am, but in this case I think it's justified before I drop a couple of hundred bucks that I don't really have anyways (using Christmas bonus, basically) on a game that is a shadow of what it once was and basically trying to pretend that it's the same GW and same 40k that I enjoyed in my late teens and early 20s, when it's clearly not.
40k is essentially like my marriage: I want to remember that it was good and worth trying to salvage, but in reality it was a miserable experience that I hated dealing with. I still look at my soon to be ex-wife and think she's beautiful, and sometimes want to try and make things work, but I can't subject myself to that misery again. Same with 40k. And now once again I'm having doubts about seriously playing it again, because I can't find any compelling reason why I should.
You know in fact, after giving it thought, that's a very apt analogy for me. My marriage was very fast and while I miss my wife sometimes, every time I see her I get reminded that I was miserable virtually every single day, and the marriage had no redeeming qualities that would be worth saving. That's the same with 40k how it currently is; I can look at it and read about it and reminisce about how fun it was years ago, but in reality I felt nearly every game that it wasn't worth playing because it wasn't really all that fun.
One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
Nope, not dying.
To the above, KDK is actually a decent army when played in capable hands.
Someone will ofcourse object to this but doesn't really change anything, they've won a couple of major events and I constantly see them fielded to good effect.
I'm sorry that the "armchair economics" being performed by people who actually work in economics doesn't paint a rosy picture for you, but it is what it is. GW's financial reports, readily available to absolutely anyone, can be compiled and tracked, year over year, to illustrate declining sales and a flat growth-curve. These are even written for the layman, since it's released to their shareholders, who aren't all economists, and it doesn't take an MBA to compare two (or more) reports side-by-side.
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
So, what's this other than "armchair economics?"
Nope, not dying.
I mean, it seems to be achingly fashionable to make sweeping statements with no back up in "one of these threads" but I can only assume you're some sort of professional economist to make such a succinct summary?
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
So, what's this other than "armchair economics?"
Nope, not dying.
I mean, it seems to be achingly fashionable to make sweeping statements with no back up in "one of these threads" but I can only assume you're some sort of professional economist to make such a succinct summary?
Oh man, you're still on and still agonizing the 40k forums without even playing the game... what a disappointment.
It's not armchair economics anyway, to answer your question. Back to the ignore list with you, this will basically lead nowhere except you getting something to do to get your mind off things.
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
So, what's this other than "armchair economics?"
Nope, not dying.
I mean, it seems to be achingly fashionable to make sweeping statements with no back up in "one of these threads" but I can only assume you're some sort of professional economist to make such a succinct summary?
Oh man, you're still on and still agonizing the 40k forums without even playing the game... what a disappointment.
It's not armchair economics anyway, to answer your question. Back to the ignore list with you, this will basically lead nowhere except you getting something to do to get your mind off things.
Seems a touch rude to ignore someone simply for disagreeing with you. However, it sounds like you are suggesting that you have some experience with economics. If that is the case, could you go over GW's reports and show how the are not declining?
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
So, what's this other than "armchair economics?"
Nope, not dying.
I mean, it seems to be achingly fashionable to make sweeping statements with no back up in "one of these threads" but I can only assume you're some sort of professional economist to make such a succinct summary?
Oh man, you're still on and still agonizing the 40k forums without even playing the game... what a disappointment.
It's not armchair economics anyway, to answer your question. Back to the ignore list with you, this will basically lead nowhere except you getting something to do to get your mind off things.
So, in short, you're guilty of doing the very thing you're criticizing him (and all critics I assume) of doing.
The word you're looking for is "hypocrisy."
If you have any kind of evidence that GW isn't declining, then by all means, bring it forward. But the financial reports are pretty clear.
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
Nope, not dying.
To the above, KDK is actually a decent army when played in capable hands.
Someone will ofcourse object to this but doesn't really change anything, they've won a couple of major events and I constantly see them fielded to good effect.
It's not about KDK not being decent, it's about the game rules being trash. I wouldn't be playing the game to play competitively at all, but there's no guarantee that I would be able to find like-minded people. The minute that happens, I know for a fact I'm going to be all "feth this gak" because I'm not going to enjoy my fluffy and well thought out KDK army being steamrolled because the game rules are gak.
In my local meta, WH40k has been almost entirely dead since early 2012, and completely dead since June 2015.
This is because my local meta consists of me and my mom and no one else since I don't have friends and don't trust strangers at gaming stores not to break or steal my stuff. And we mostly stopped playing after the end of 2011. And in June this year I packed away almost all of my WH40k stuff in preparation for selling the house to move across the river to Ottawa. The house still hasn't sold, so that stuff is still in boxes.
It's also getting a bit annoying to have been playing Sisters of Battle as my main army since 2008 or so, and not only not seen a hint of plastic Sisters of Battle, but also to have actually seen the selection of available minis shrink to the bare necessities, with no variants at all. And then there was the realization that GW likely wouldn't be content to mimic the style of the current Sororitas models but with the ability to pose them with multi-part plastic kits, but would make an entirely new aesthetic like they did with Dark Eldar and Necrons, and it would probably make me hate the new models.
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
Some of us happen to have actual degrees in economics & work in such fields professionally
I took a course in economics once, does that count? I was the only one to ever get a perfect score on the professor's exams too D:
That being said, yea it's silly how people discount the things table top gamers state at times, especially since it's the hobby that most appeals to those with advanced degrees that require analysis. I'm not saying all of them are always right, or that simply because you have a good degree it means you're right, since there are plenty of folks who are awesome at one subject but completely irrational at everything else, but rather that it's weird to discount what people say here. I mean after all, I might not be an economist, but I have two different engineering degrees, and a physics degree, so I probably have some concept of how data analysis works.
As much as I would love to say that 40k is doing great in my area, it's not. Our group has basically boiled down to me (with my 3 40k armies), my DA/BA playing friend, my friend who plays Iron Hands, and the occasional other players who stops by. It's gotten to the point where I know what my opponents will bring before they do. The rest of the people who play 40k only ever show up during tournaments. 40k is dying here, but Warmahordes and X-wing are doing just fabulous, which is why I'm looking into maybe getting back into Warmachine at some point.
Even in the UK I think GW is declining. There was a time when the GW retail empire had crushed all the independents. Now, there's a growing amount of independent shops initially supported by Magic organised play, and more recently FFG's Star Wars games organised play.
It's plain less people are playing 40K. Sales are down year on year. Tournament attendance is down. Less people are talking about the game - posts on the major 40k forums are all down. Most of the stuff announced this year - AoS, Plastic HH, Specialist Games etc isn't going to change things. They're trying to appeal to the customers left behind, and slow the death spiral as much as possible.
I wonder if GW is actually interested in attracting new miniature buying customers any more ? Marvel for example doesn't really sell that many comics. It's IPs in TV, film and merchandising are far more profitable for them. GW have been trying to protect their IP as much as possible, but don't seem to have done much with it outside of the odd mobile game. Perhaps no one is really interested in their IP either ?
I don't think its declining in the UK, as up the North East here it seems to be still going strong..
But it is more of a yes and no answer imo..
I have noticed that the circle has become more minimal, still going strong but I'm talking from the more competitive area as that's all that is seen around here from my perspective. Outside of the competitive bubble I don't see anyone else, the group that attended tourneys when I first started gaming into 40k and tourney play has vanished (the last two tourneys in my area were cancelled due to only two people entering) and I never see new blood anywhere coming to 40k.
But I do agree with other posters that I have seen a sharp uprising over the last few years for MTG at least half of my area is MTG and FFG is defiantly on the rise, as I see lots more FFG organised events, which does not bother me since I can't wait to attend my first event of SW: IA in the new year
Also the Batman Miniatures Game by Knights Models while slower than the FFG/Star Wars events are steadily on the rise as well which is a happy thought as that game is by far my favorite .
I think its more of a case of that 40k is still strong where you can find it and I doubt it will die unless GW puts the iron curtain on it, but perhaps now its became less and less popular with the amount of other games out there.
I also believe that there is a change in demographic in the genre people wish to play games I have have noticed lots and lots of people are now flocking to skirmish and smaller scaled based games, and I think that's because people just want to have quick based games due to low model count, because with quick games surely means you can have more right? I have no stats to back this up, just a observation I've seen around the North East.
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
Some of us happen to have actual degrees in economics & work in such fields professionally
I took a course in economics once, does that count? I was the only one to ever get a perfect score on the professor's exams too D:
That being said, yea it's silly how people discount the things table top gamers state at times, especially since it's the hobby that most appeals to those with advanced degrees that require analysis. I'm not saying all of them are always right, or that simply because you have a good degree it means you're right, since there are plenty of folks who are awesome at one subject but completely irrational at everything else, but rather that it's weird to discount what people say here. I mean after all, I might not be an economist, but I have two different engineering degrees, and a physics degree, so I probably have some concept of how data analysis works.
Not even the finest, most educated, most experienced economic minds always get it right, but what frequently makes people discounting other's opinions on these matters so utterly risible is they firstly seldom have any idea of how informed the opinion they're dismissing is, and secondly they often have absolutely no basis, education or experience to do so. As happened here, being pressed to actually justify their position results in either a series of goalpost moves and sidesteps, or just flat out attacks.
For the record, Runic (under his previous guise as RunicFIN) last year assumed a position that he was somehow "in the know" about GW's finances and insisted that they'd be much improved. Needless to say, history disproved this, and when posters with better memories than mine called him to account, it wasn't pretty.
Runic wrote: One of these threads again huh. Any more armchair economics and the internet might just crash.
Some of us happen to have actual degrees in economics & work in such fields professionally
I took a course in economics once, does that count? I was the only one to ever get a perfect score on the professor's exams too D:
That being said, yea it's silly how people discount the things table top gamers state at times, especially since it's the hobby that most appeals to those with advanced degrees that require analysis. I'm not saying all of them are always right, or that simply because you have a good degree it means you're right, since there are plenty of folks who are awesome at one subject but completely irrational at everything else, but rather that it's weird to discount what people say here. I mean after all, I might not be an economist, but I have two different engineering degrees, and a physics degree, so I probably have some concept of how data analysis works.
Not even the finest, most educated, most experienced economic minds always get it right, but what frequently makes people discounting other's opinions on these matters so utterly risible is they firstly seldom have any idea of how informed the opinion they're dismissing is, and secondly they often have absolutely no basis, education or experience to do so. As happened here, being pressed to actually justify their position results in either a series of goalpost moves and sidesteps, or just flat out attacks.
For the record, Runic (under his previous guise as RunicFIN) last year assumed a position that he was somehow "in the know" about GW's finances and insisted that they'd be much improved. Needless to say, history disproved this, and when posters with better memories than mine called him to account, it wasn't pretty.
Not to mention that, and I know this will annoy a lot of people, economics isn't exactly the best math or science out there, since it depends significantly on almost random factors in mass.
Economics is more a form of predictive historical analysis than actual science, simply due to what it tries to quantify, so there's that much greater room for error in than other fields of science. Meaning that even simple data points, such as declining profit, can signal a very important trend.
Honest question, simply because I don't know anything about these things; do you guys have an idea how big part of the sale decline is caused by healthy competition vs. dissatisfaction of GW product?
These can probably overlap as people perhaps are getting dissatisfied with the product because of more appealing alternatives, but either way there is quite a bit competition in the miniature market these days.
marke wrote: Honest question, simply because I don't know anything about these things; do you guys have an idea how big part of the sale decline is caused by healthy competition vs. dissatisfaction of GW product?
These can probably overlap as people perhaps are getting dissatisfied with the product because of more appealing alternatives, but either way there is quite a bit competition in the miniature market these days.
I can't speak to that, but the traditional games market (including board games and card games) has exploded in the lasr few years. IIRC icv2 reported that in the US the market has doubled in size since 08. That means that more money is being spent on the hobby now than it was a fw years ago. Even if GW had not lost any customers there would still have been new customers buying other games.
Seems a touch rude to ignore someone simply for disagreeing with you.
The user in question has been, for years, mostly been looking for trouble in the forums and interaction with him in general leads to nothing more than bickering. Therefore it's pretty useless to engage in any way.
Him, Peregrine and MWHistorian are the same, bringing nothing but negativity on the forums which is why they're all on ignore. The bring nothing to the table, and provide nothing of interest to read. I trolled them a year ago and they're pretty much still butthurt ( as they took the bait, acting all high and mighty only to find out they were just being trolled and laughed at on another forum ) just like they are with 40K and keep on posting in the forums, being all bitter 24/7. I like how Azreal is trying to mask it as something else though judging from the quote, haha. I have my doubts regarding such people, even on a mental health level. The kind that keep agonizing a games forum years after having stopping playing and being so bitter, that is. Actually had a discussion about it once with some friends and none of us really couldn't come into a perfectly logical solution for that behaviour.
Regarding people who have actual education and work experience in economics, so do I, and it wasn't directed at such people. There are some pretty uneducated guesses in this thread. GW has had negative results.
However, 40K isn't dying, but thriving instead as proven by the vast amount of events around the world that continue year after year. In 40K General it's pretty apocalyptic always, luckily it doesn't translate to other big sites as they lack the few special snowflake users making it seem so.
Still the most played wargame on a global level I believe.
Seems a touch rude to ignore someone simply for disagreeing with you.
The user in question has been, for years, mostly been looking for trouble in the forums and interaction with him in general leads to nothing more than bickering. Therefore it's pretty useless to engage in any way.
Wait... I'm having a vision...
I see...
...I see a kettle... and...
yes... and a pot...
...both are ebony in colour....
wait... the pot is saying something..
...he seems to be telling the kettle what colour he is...
...now the vision is fading.
What a strange image. I wonder what it could mean?
Seems a touch rude to ignore someone simply for disagreeing with you.
The user in question has been, for years, mostly been looking for trouble in the forums and interaction with him in general leads to nothing more than bickering. Therefore it's pretty useless to engage in any way.
Wait... I'm having a vision...
I see...
...I see a kettle... and...
yes... and a pot...
...both are ebony in colour....
wait... the pot is saying something..
...he seems to be telling the kettle what colour he is...
...now the vision is fading.
What a strange image. I wonder what it could mean?
A strange image indeed, seeing as how most of my posts for the last 7 months have been about painting and advising new users. But yeah, that's what you get for engaging the special snowflakes. Hence, better not do it at all.
In any case, enough offtopic from me, I'll keep strolling the fields of useful threads ever so happily, content knowing that at the edge, in the dark forest line, the band of unhappy-on-the-inside snowflakes are snarling in desperation for attention and conflict. I recommend heavily to just put all the regular naysayers on ignore, improves the Dakka experience vastly. They will try to get attention, they will try to undermine everyone who ignores them or plain "beats" them, but that's just them clawing for attention and something to fill their days with.
It's not about KDK not being decent, it's about the game rules being trash. I wouldn't be playing the game to play competitively at all, but there's no guarantee that I would be able to find like-minded people. The minute that happens, I know for a fact I'm going to be all "feth this gak" because I'm not going to enjoy my fluffy and well thought out KDK army being steamrolled because the game rules are gak.
I guess I understand the notion. It goes without saying that 40K requires some likeminded people if you want flawless interaction. Personally I settle with some compromises here and there, and it's fine. Just wanted to let you know that KDK can handle everything but the most abysmally broken lists, but requires a non-fluffy effective list in itself, ofcourse.
Seems a touch rude to ignore someone simply for disagreeing with you.
The user in question has been, for years, mostly been looking for trouble in the forums and interaction with him in general leads to nothing more than bickering. Therefore it's pretty useless to engage in any way.
Him, Peregrine and MWHistorian are the same, bringing nothing but negativity on the forums which is why they're all on ignore. The bring nothing to the table, and provide nothing of interest to read. I trolled them a year ago and they're pretty much still butthurt ( as they took the bait, acting all high and mighty only to find out they were just being trolled and laughed at on another forum ) just like they are with 40K and keep on posting in the forums, being all bitter 24/7. I like how Azreal is trying to mask it as something else though judging from the quote, haha. I have my doubts regarding such people, even on a mental health level. The kind that keep agonizing a games forum years after having stopping playing and being so bitter, that is. Actually had a discussion about it once with some friends and none of us really couldn't come into a perfectly logical solution for that behaviour.
Regarding people who have actual education and work experience in economics, so do I, and it wasn't directed at such people. There are some pretty uneducated guesses in this thread. GW has had negative results.
However, 40K isn't dying, but thriving instead as proven by the vast amount of events around the world that continue year after year. In 40K General it's pretty apocalyptic always, luckily it doesn't translate to other big sites as they lack the few special snowflake users making it seem so.
Still the most played wargame on a global level I believe.
It's a bit of a stretch to call 40K thriving. If we're talking tournaments in particular, I remember reading that most are reporting 40K attendance is down (or taking much longer to sell out), whilst attendance for other games is up.
Much like the year on year sales figures for GW, it's a slow decline. It's a bit of a stretch to say it's dieing, (as you say it's probably still the most played wargame), but it's also far from thriving.
Runic wrote: The user in question has been, for years, mostly been looking for trouble in the forums and interaction with him in general leads to nothing more than bickering. Therefore it's pretty useless to engage in any way.
Him, Peregrine and MWHistorian are the same, bringing nothing but negativity on the forums which is why they're all on ignore. The bring nothing to the table, and provide nothing of interest to read.
I do not always agree with them but typically get further elaboration from them if asked.
If you just devolve into personal attacks, they give as well as they get.
I suspect you may have not been able to put up a good argument so using ignore in self defense appears to be the answer.
I trolled them a year ago and they're pretty much still butthurt ( as they took the bait, acting all high and mighty only to find out they were just being trolled and laughed at on another forum ) just like they are with 40K and keep on posting in the forums, being all bitter 24/7.
They obviously care so if trolling makes you feel like the big man... let us just say you should try something more positive as you had mentioned.
I like how Azreal is trying to mask it as something else though judging from the quote, haha. I have my doubts regarding such people, even on a mental health level. The kind that keep agonizing a games forum years after having stopping playing and being so bitter, that is. Actually had a discussion about it once with some friends and none of us really couldn't come into a perfectly logical solution for that behaviour.
One thing to keep in mind is some of us have collections from as far back as Rogue Trader so people WILL play the latest and greatest rules and then decide this version is not for them and keep in touch with the game for the next change.
I have not stopped making and painting my miniatures but I think I only got some 10 games in of an unmodified 7th edition.
Regarding people who have actual education and work experience in economics, so do I, and it wasn't directed at such people. There are some pretty uneducated guesses in this thread. GW has had negative results.
Some pretty valid guesses can be made from those who happen to invest or even better think long and hard on consumer spending or even their own spending habits.
Looking at my hobby budget it has increased during the years but GW spending went from ~80% 2 years ago, to ~50% last year down to 5% this year.
This is both through competing products (Armada and X-wing) as well as old games getting a few updates (Battletech with Alphastrike) and a couple kickstarter diversions (Robotech).
Never-mind various computer games.
They have more to compete with than just other gaming model companies.
However, 40K isn't dying, but thriving instead as proven by the vast amount of events around the world that continue year after year. In 40K General it's pretty apocalyptic always, luckily it doesn't translate to other big sites as they lack the few special snowflake users making it seem so.
So the shrinking gross income of GW is not a concern as shown in the annual reports?
The "vast amount of events" do not include what used to be hosted GW that no longer occur.
I would also like to know what events you would include as 40k based ones.
I would need to do a few searches of past events and see if they keep an entry list and see if those had shrunk at all as a start.
Still the most played wargame on a global level I believe.
Dunno, you could look at "BoardGameGeek" for their rankings:
http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/24318/tabletop-miniatures-games-rank X-wing is number one at the moment and I would agree in my area at least that is the case.
I find funny that Necromunda is #4, I have been using that for warband combat for much of my 40k forces.
I had trouble finding any other site willing to try to rank games (like TGN).
"Choosing a game system" is a good guide which does not seem to bode well for GW: http://www.wargamingtradecraft.com/2011/12/choosing-game-system.html
My impression from your statements is that the thought and expertise going into war gaming may not be as in-depth as you would like.
I would suggest that we all like games in general and can pretty much make anything work it is just a question of how long a game can keep it's shine to give incentive.
The "fluff" and weight of past product could keep 40k as a game going indefinitely, I guess you would have to define if they fall below 5% of the active games played out there it would be a "death"?
So contribute, save your trolling for torturing small animals or something...
Seems a touch rude to ignore someone simply for disagreeing with you.
The user in question has been, for years, mostly been looking for trouble in the forums and interaction with him in general leads to nothing more than bickering. Therefore it's pretty useless to engage in any way.
Him, Peregrine and MWHistorian are the same, bringing nothing but negativity on the forums which is why they're all on ignore. The bring nothing to the table, and provide nothing of interest to read. I trolled them a year ago and they're pretty much still butthurt ( as they took the bait, acting all high and mighty only to find out they were just being trolled and laughed at on another forum ) just like they are with 40K and keep on posting in the forums, being all bitter 24/7. I like how Azreal is trying to mask it as something else though judging from the quote, haha. I have my doubts regarding such people, even on a mental health level. The kind that keep agonizing a games forum years after having stopping playing and being so bitter, that is. Actually had a discussion about it once with some friends and none of us really couldn't come into a perfectly logical solution for that behaviour.
Regarding people who have actual education and work experience in economics, so do I, and it wasn't directed at such people. There are some pretty uneducated guesses in this thread. GW has had negative results.
However, 40K isn't dying, but thriving instead as proven by the vast amount of events around the world that continue year after year. In 40K General it's pretty apocalyptic always, luckily it doesn't translate to other big sites as they lack the few special snowflake users making it seem so.
Still the most played wargame on a global level I believe.
From one aspect, I think 40K is dying. I think that the 80% that only provides 20% of GW's sales are falling away. However, all GW needs is the 20% faithful. I think 40K is destined to be a plurality game, not a majority. The biggest among minorities.
In my neck of the woods (Cleveland, Ohio) 40k has fragmented and seen a lot of fall out. 10 years ago we could hold monthly tournaments and have 30+ people show. Now the number is down to 10ish. There are a lot of contributing factors but the 2 big ones are nobody can agree how to play the game, and the long term players have been annoyed by GW so much they are swearing off new purchases and picking up other games.
So years back 40k players would attend 1 store for a tournament monthly while the other stores would be popular on their local game nights. There was a lot of people playing the game. Now most stores gaming nights are down to a few people playing, and the majority playing in each others basements and not doing pick up games. This has lead to groups of people playing different versions of the game. Some want a strict by the book 7th. Others don't want to fight forgeworld/LOW/etc. Others prefer not to play maelstrom. Its really daunting, so the group has fragmented into many sub groups that are no longer close.
The second factor, a lot of the "Old Guard" who were active in recruiting new players and setting aside time to teach, have been burnt by GW in their opinion. Most have moved on to other game systems and are getting new players to do Warmachine or Dropzone.
I would be really surprised to see 40k grow in my area in the next year. The largest store in the area isn't moving product like he would in years past. AoS isn't selling and the 40k items are just new releases. He doesn't have people picking up new armies, its just a kit here or there to augment what they already have.
Talizvar wrote: I suspect you may have not been able to put up a good argument so using ignore in self defense appears to be the answer.
Ofcourse you'd say that because reasons, however I already stated why and there's no more to it really. You are free to continue suspecting otherwise. To me continually negative individuals provide nothing, and I therefore have no interest in their opinions. They are free to discuss them with someone who cares. I sure don't.
Talizvar wrote: They obviously care so if trolling makes you feel like the big man... let us just say you should try something more positive as you had mentioned.
Nah, teaching someone a lesson is just sometimes just purely enjoyable and fun. Especially if the other option is a neverending spiral of debating something on the internet, with no ones opinion changing in the end anyway. I'm already doing the best thing you can with compulsively venomous individuals; ignoring them completely.
Talizvar wrote: I would also like to know what events you would include as 40k based ones.
Perhaps "based one" isn't a good choice of words, but doesn't anything involving 40K count as 40K activity, and if not, then what does?
Talizvar wrote: I would need to do a few searches of past events and see if they keep an entry list and see if those had shrunk at all as a start.
If I'm not mistaken, LVO is bigger than ever in 2016, starting with the amount of players.
At 284 players this will be our largest competitive 40k yet and if I am remembering correctly will be the largest competitive 40k event in North America (citation may be needed).
Talizvar wrote: So contribute, save your trolling for torturing small animals or something...
Perhaps you misread, but the trolling took place over a year ago. Must say, them bringing it up for the 3rd time this year tells me it hit home. Haven't trolled anyone now, just stated a few things just the way they are. I also wonder why it's such a big deal, people are being trolled/flamebaited here on a daily basis. Since I simply do not, absolutely and utterly, care if someone isn't fine with inflammatory individuals getting trolled, it leaves one wondering what a person commenting about it is thinking he will achieve. Save your breath I'd say.
If you have further interests in offtopic subjects please shoot me a PM instead since this hasn't really got much to do with "40K dying."
marke wrote: Honest question, simply because I don't know anything about these things; do you guys have an idea how big part of the sale decline is caused by healthy competition vs. dissatisfaction of GW product?
These can probably overlap as people perhaps are getting dissatisfied with the product because of more appealing alternatives, but either way there is quite a bit competition in the miniature market these days.
The thing is, that mini war gaming requires a huge financial and time investment to get into, so most people once in won't completely leave a game for another game, unless it becomes bad enough. It's the same reason WoW has been the biggest, despite potentially better MMOs being released, the players had just sunk too much time into it, to swap over to a slightly better version and start over again.
It's only now that we're seeing the effects of how bad something can get, with WoW losing 5 million subscribers because of this expansion alone. So we finally found the potential WoW killer and that's WoW itself, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same went for GW.
While the high price point of 40K is keeping it doing well in sales charts, I'm not sure it's the most played wargame right now. X-Wing is doing really well.
Runic wrote:However, 40K isn't dying, but thriving instead as proven by the vast amount of events around the world that continue year after year. In 40K General it's pretty apocalyptic always, luckily it doesn't translate to other big sites as they lack the few special snowflake users making it seem so.
Still the most played wargame on a global level I believe.
Look, you are allowed to have your own opinion, you're allowed to disagree with people, you're even allowed to hate people. However, when you start directly insulting people for no reason other than them disagreeing with you, it is immature and rude. That kind of behavior is what I would expect from a seven-year-old boy, not an adult.
Talizvar wrote: I suspect you may have not been able to put up a good argument so using ignore in self defense appears to be the answer.
Ofcourse you'd say that because reasons, however I already stated why and there's no more to it really. You are free to continue suspecting otherwise. To me continually negative individuals provide nothing, and I therefore have no interest in their opinions. They are free to discuss them with someone who cares. I sure don't.
Talizvar wrote: They obviously care so if trolling makes you feel like the big man... let us just say you should try something more positive as you had mentioned.
Nah, teaching someone a lesson is just sometimes just purely enjoyable and fun. Especially if the other option is a neverending spiral of debating something on the internet, with no ones opinion changing in the end anyway. I'm already doing the best thing you can with compulsively venomous individuals; ignoring them completely.
Talizvar wrote: I would also like to know what events you would include as 40k based ones.
Perhaps "based one" isn't a good choice of words, but doesn't anything involving 40K count as 40K activity, and if not, then what does?
Talizvar wrote: I would need to do a few searches of past events and see if they keep an entry list and see if those had shrunk at all as a start.
If I'm not mistaken, LVO is bigger than ever in 2016, starting with the amount of players.
At 284 players this will be our largest competitive 40k yet and if I am remembering correctly will be the largest competitive 40k event in North America (citation may be needed).
Talizvar wrote: So contribute, save your trolling for torturing small animals or something...
Perhaps you misread, but the trolling took place over a year ago. Must say, them bringing it up for the 3rd time this year tells me it hit home. Haven't trolled anyone now, just stated a few things just the way they are. I also wonder why it's such a big deal, people are being trolled/flamebaited here on a daily basis. Since I simply do not, absolutely and utterly, care if someone isn't fine with inflammatory individuals getting trolled, it leaves one wondering what a person commenting about it is thinking he will achieve. Save your breath I'd say.
If you have further interests in offtopic subjects please shoot me a PM instead since this hasn't really got much to do with "40K dying."
The best part of course, is you yourself have provided nothing to this discussion, other than insulting people, but whatever floats your boat.
I think the latest announcement by GW stating that there will be another decline in revenue is telling.
Even after AOS and other releases, they are still showing a decline. It lends credence to the stories that AOS sales dropped off to nothing after the first month.
The thing is, that mini war gaming requires a huge financial and time investment to get into, so most people once in won't completely leave a game for another game, unless it becomes bad enough. It's the same reason WoW has been the biggest, despite potentially better MMOs being released, the players had just sunk too much time into it, to swap over to a slightly better version and start over again.
It's only now that we're seeing the effects of how bad something can get, with WoW losing 5 million subscribers because of this expansion alone. So we finally found the potential WoW killer and that's WoW itself, and I wouldn't be surprised if the same went for GW.
Good analogy I mostly agree.
I didn't mention this in my earlier post, but I'm thinking other stuff besides miniatures, too. GW has to compete not only with companies like PP, but also with companies like Riot and Blizzard in some ways. Computer games are highly addictive and competitive these days, as well as many other modern hobbies. There have been computer games before, but not to this extent as how much attenttion they require. Combine that with the modern society's hurried lifestyle, and people will choose the easier hobby.. current trend in consumerism also suggests that commitment might be a smaller issue than you imply. People have money.. what they lack is time.
I'm not saying this or that, but I still feel that people aren't generally dissatisifed with GW product. They might be, but declining sales doesn't prove this. It only proves sales are declining, and I feel this is because of many factors - not only because of GW supposedly making what the customers don't want.
PS. I think League of Legends killed WoW, instead of another MMORPG. Of course this is exaggerated a bit, but partly true as well.. which is why I think the same might happen with GW. I'm thinking the quality of product is still "top notch" for a large portion of customers, but without market research, we can only have hunches - if even those.
mondo80 wrote: Yes 40k is dying :( And the government caused 9/11, vaccines cause autism and Elvis is running my super market.
So you're going to use any evidence to backup why 40k isn't dying then? Or are we just on a flyby of comparing looking at the finance reports that GW publishes to conspiracy and nonsense?
It's strange how some of the people who think 40k is doing great, can't actually come up with an argument that doesn't have to resort in insults or odd things like the quoted, but again, whatever floats their collective sinking boat it's the naysayers that make these threads like they are
Also could someone explain to me how you get growth, but the strong pound somehow creates a small loss of sales.
Having no knowledge ( The closest I've been was accidentally walking into an economics open day seminar thing, when I was looking for the marine zoology one , was good though, and the guy nearly sold me on economics), I would assume that a strong pound has no impact at all on reported sales, and if you have sales growth, you would also have reported sales growth, or are those things linked/ not linked in ways my not economically trained brain cannot understand?
It's basically because the main measurement of sales is money.
If my £50 item sells for $80 in year one, but in year two the pound strengthens so the same 80$ is now worth £45. That's a 10% drop in revenue, but one could sell more units in year two, just not enough to offset the drop in actual cash income.
Therefore you'd experience unit growth but your actual revenue would shrink.
It's a fair assumption to believe that if they were still shifting similar, or greater, quantities of product then they'd mention it, but as unit sales is something they'd don't share (frustratingly) and it fundamentally doesn't affect the bottom line (other than perhaps offer an excuse to stop people dumping stock) there's more to lose by reporting it in all likelihood.
The end of the day, if they're going to pay a dividend, there's little to be gained by protesting too much, blame the strong pound and STFU.
Are people still buying the models, paints and books? Do people meet up and play games with each other? I play in a league with at least 16 people in a place that has 17 tables that run tournaments. So I don't think it's dying. This year saw a lot of stuff release and the new formations setup have given players reasons to use models that would've been sitting in a closest. If I sounded like I was preaching I'm sorry but it takes something very specific to turn me off on a game, it varies and it's never the same thing.
Sure, people are still buying, but more or less than 2 years ago? 5? All those new releases are no guarantee that they're making as much money as other releases used to. There's a quote somewhere from one of the big GW alumni along the lines of "if GW do Heresy, they've broken the glass in case of emergency."
I can counter your anecdote about people still playing with another one about how it's all but died out completely in my club, but neither mean much without a broader view.
That broader view comes in the form of GW financial reports, which have indicated that people have been giving GW less money than before for, when the next report comes out next month, 2 straight years.
One can argue about the rate of decline, and one can speculate that there may be a hard floor that the game will reach and not drop further, but it's difficult to make a compelling case that the game isn't in trouble in a holistic sense.
mondo80 wrote: Are people still buying the models, paints and books? Do people meet up and play games with each other? I play in a league with at least 16 people in a place that has 17 tables that run tournaments. So I don't think it's dying. This year saw a lot of stuff release and the new formations setup have given players reasons to use models that would've been sitting in a closest. If I sounded like I was preaching I'm sorry but it takes something very specific to turn me off on a game, it varies and it's never the same thing.
The point of this thread, I believe, is that a league with 16 people is good and fine, but 40k used to be the kind of game that would have drawn 30.
I said at least, meaning that was the lowest number of people I've seen there. On average we get about 22 -24 on Friday night's. The portal ran a 50 player tournament with a 1k cash prize several months ago with another running soon. I had my first apocalypse battle there that went from 11pm to 6am. There's 3 game stores around me that sell GW stuff so that's why I don't think it's dying. People here seem obsessed with how gw is doing and whether or not if it's time to abandon the ship and switch to a different game.
The BoC box set has surprised me a bit.
With this box GW has flooded the market with Marines, Termies, and special weapons to some extent.
In this way they ruined their own market. Who buys the regular Tactical marine box? Same for Sternguard and Devastators.
Some people still play 40k here but the number of people are down. None of the shops in my area hold 40k tournaments anymore because of the lack of intrest in the game. One store is nothing but power gamers, I had a good laugh the other day when one guy brought a IK in a 750 pt game to teach a new guy how to play. Let's just say the new guy didn't learn much. I personally don't go to the stores to play anymore just because it full of power gamers. My group about 15 of us who meet every Friday night to play at a buddies house all quit. Most of us have been playing since the 80's and just got burnt out. Nobody spammed the most broken stuff or anything like that but when we compared it to other games like x wing, bolt action, or WMH, GW games are just overpriced crap. Sure some models are pretty cool but I'm not a model collector I'm a gamer.
mondo80 wrote: Are people still buying the models, paints and books? Do people meet up and play games with each other? I play in a league with at least 16 people in a place that has 17 tables that run tournaments. So I don't think it's dying. This year saw a lot of stuff release and the new formations setup have given players reasons to use models that would've been sitting in a closest. If I sounded like I was preaching I'm sorry but it takes something very specific to turn me off on a game, it varies and it's never the same thing.
The point of this thread, I believe, is that a league with 16 people is good and fine, but 40k used to be the kind of game that would have drawn 30.
The first christmans w40k bash I took part in, being a total noob, had over 100 people on day one. The one from this year had 31, and only because 4 people were beged to take part in it. At the same time xwing grew from nothing to 60+people, Warmahodes had 60+people and still has 60+people. There was also a 20+ sized group of people playing infinity and some people playing and runing demos for skirmish systems. I don't know if this means that GW games are dead, well ok AoS/WFB is dead, but they sure did get a lot smaller. No new players and shop closing doesn't help either.
mondo80 wrote: I said at least, meaning that was the lowest number of people I've seen there. On average we get about 22 -24 on Friday night's. The portal ran a 50 player tournament with a 1k cash prize several months ago with another running soon. I had my first apocalypse battle there that went from 11pm to 6am. There's 3 game stores around me that sell GW stuff so that's why I don't think it's dying. People here seem obsessed with how gw is doing and whether or not if it's time to abandon the ship and switch to a different game.
It would be better to point that a major tournament once drew hundreds of players and thousands of spectators, but now draws dozens of players and scores of spectators.
I've recently returned to the game after a few years hiatus (I start/stop, start/stop once every few years) but that's because the secondary market on models has been good to me - buying huge lots off Ebay, Kijiji, Craigslist, etc, really helps with the pricing. Is the game dying? Impossible to say without numbers from GW to back up, but I do still notice a fair amount of players at my FLGS, and I have a co-worker who regularly buys models from GW. The game itself will likely never "die", even if GW goes under, but secondary prices would certainly soar if production of models stopped.
Is it just that their sales of models are down? The have licensed their IP to other companies to make games. If this is the case then it doesn't matter how many bad models or rule books they sell, gw would still have other sources of income to keep going. Look at Sega, they used to be focused on their own console systems and games, now they are a software company that makes games for all systems and own the rights to make GW games since THQ bit it.
Not sure if 40k is being played less but for my small group its not been played in about 3months or so but that could just be a lul till we get back into it but not sure to be honest.
We have been playing flames of war recently but I don't know when we will go back to 40k but will probably have a game in a couple of months I think.
Anecdotal - I got a few emails from games companies today. Out of them, 3 of the emails (such as Warlord Games) said a simple 'Merry Christmas' or 'Happy Holidays'.
The GW email said 'now you have your Christmas money, why not spend it on these' with a link to an imperial knight, archon on that flying beast and some dragon (smaug I think?) - some of their most expensive models.
Needless to say the difference in attitude between the smaller companies and GW was plain to see. It doesn't help with people's negative perception of GW.
mondo80 wrote: Is it just that their sales of models are down? The have licensed their IP to other companies to make games. If this is the case then it doesn't matter how many bad models or rule books they sell, gw would still have other sources of income to keep going. Look at Sega, they used to be focused on their own console systems and games, now they are a software company that makes games for all systems and own the rights to make GW games since THQ bit it.
Last year, royalties from licensing were equal to ~1.5% of turnover.
That's not enough to hang the business that is GW on, and not enough to sustain the game, so this approach would result in the death of 40K.
Next year's report may see an increase, as the amount of shovelware they've licenced, along with a handful of apparently slightly higher quality releases in the pipeline, has noticeably increased. Sega already made games, they just stopped selling hardware. GW don't make video games, they just have a B list intellectual property they let others use.
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10penceman wrote: Not sure if 40k is being played less but for my small group its not been played in about 3months or so but that could just be a lul till we get back into it but not sure to be honest.
We have been playing flames of war recently but I don't know when we will go back to 40k but will probably have a game in a couple of months I think.
I think this is the crux of things. Anecdotal this may be, but I rarely see someone saying "a couple of years ago, nobody played 40K, now it's near impossible to get a game of anything else!"
It's always the reverse, and it doesn't seem to matter where in the world you game.
Runic wrote: Since I simply do not, absolutely and utterly, care if someone isn't fine with inflammatory individuals getting trolled, it leaves one wondering what a person commenting about it is thinking he will achieve. Save your breath I'd say.
Thanks for at least making your (lack of?) motivations clear.
That at least warrants a civil response.
Funny how the more discussion worthy elements you completely glossed over: personal sparring appears to be the interest rather than discussion on topics.
Which makes further discussions rather pointless.
Adieu.
The cold, hard facts point to GW losing market share and overall sales. There's no disputing that. Regardless of your local meta, there's a still a large decline there.
My concern is for TT miniature wargames in general. How are we as a hobby doing in terms of overall sales? Where are the dollars that are shifting from GW going? Are they going to other hobby games? Board games? Real life expenses?
Valhallan42nd wrote: The cold, hard facts point to GW losing market share and overall sales. There's no disputing that. Regardless of your local meta, there's a still a large decline there.
My concern is for TT miniature wargames in general. How are we as a hobby doing in terms of overall sales? Where are the dollars that are shifting from GW going? Are they going to other hobby games? Board games? Real life expenses?
Seems like X wing and Armada are getting a ton of new players. A lot of the xwing players in my area are new to the TT hobby and have not played any other games.
Indeed - I'm not a fan of XWING or Armada (Tired of Star Wars due to saturation in the media and so on) but the game mechanics imported from Wings of Glory/War and Star Trek Attack Wing are simple, fun and engaging. Each of the club's I've been to are packed with people playing them. The club I'm currently local to has removed some of the GW terrain boards and replaced them with starscapes for these games or WW2 terrain for Bolt Action.
From my experience, the club's tables are now 50% Starscape, 30% WW2 and Historical and 20% 40K ruins
GW is contracting, which I don't think is the same as "dying." All businesses see their share of ups and downs and for all the indications of "down" GW is seeing it's a pretty controlled decent. That means they're still in control even if they don't realize it; even if they're making the wrong choices. They're still profitable even if sales volumes are declining this means that if GW stopped doing stupid and left pricing alone they would simply find themselves at a new normal. GW could survive as a smaller company so it's only a question of if they decide to pull the arrow out or push it through.
GW is not even close to dying. They're making a profit and have zero debt. 40k is clearly dying as a competitive game. 11th Company is gone, 3++ is gone, Torrent of Fire is gone, Stomping Grounds is gone. Tournament attendance is down. The casual garage scene is doing just fine. I see people at the FLGS playing Apocalypse scale games frequently, but it's always with their buddies.
When you think about playing a game, generally what you want is an experience that involves fair rules that have depth and encourage you to form strategies and apply tactics towards achieving victory. 40k offers the added appeal of playing a game with fun miniatures in a universe with an engaging background. However, GW doesn't understand what a game is anymore, and a lot of players have simply reached the conclusion that playing it for any purpose other than screwing around with pretty models for a few hours is pointless. It is not a game to be played to win. So many, like myself ask why we should play it at all when there are games out there that make achieving victory an engaging and challenging experience.
I don't think it's dying. Because there will always be chumps like me willing to pay 100 euro for a book even if it's a 100 page short story. And as for the minis, the same.
Should it die? that's another question. I think at some time there should be a 40k finishing point, but probably not until interest dies out.
slaede wrote: GW is not even close to dying. They're making a profit and have zero debt. 40k is clearly dying as a competitive game. 11th Company is gone, 3++ is gone, Torrent of Fire is gone, Stomping Grounds is gone. Tournament attendance is down. The casual garage scene is doing just fine. I see people at the FLGS playing Apocalypse scale games frequently, but it's always with their buddies.
When you think about playing a game, generally what you want is an experience that involves fair rules that have depth and encourage you to form strategies and apply tactics towards achieving victory. 40k offers the added appeal of playing a game with fun miniatures in a universe with an engaging background. However, GW doesn't understand what a game is anymore, and a lot of players have simply reached the conclusion that playing it for any purpose other than screwing around with pretty models for a few hours is pointless. It is not a game to be played to win. So many, like myself ask why we should play it at all when there are games out there that make achieving victory an engaging and challenging experience.
They might be making a profit, but if that profit decreases year after year there's going to come a point when they aren't making a profit anymore. It's probably many years out, but unless they wise up and change course, you can't have a decline in profit every year and still remain profitable.
Personally I have no interest in tournaments, Id rather play friendly matches doing stupid things, like 2000pts a side on a 2'x4' table. Or using scratch-built models and experimental rules with them.
Trying to get into my LFGS though to find more people to play with though. Most of my friends that started 40k lost interest rapidly, and sold their armies to me for the most part. But Im finding that I have other expenses and concerns, with work and college, and so I have less and less time to play games...
Power-Armored Space Wolves will no longer satisfy once you experience a Viking charge made by men armored with nothing but beards and harsh language
No. The only thing fun about historical games is defying history, rather than reliving it, and most of the utter garbage that qualify as "historical games" out there don't let you. Fantasy and sci-fi are where it's at. At least they encourage creativity instead of stagnation
I find them fun enough - I don't do the whole re-playing real battles thing though. I find the skirmish games like raiding a Saxon village more enjoyable
slaede wrote: GW is not even close to dying. They're making a profit and have zero debt. 40k is clearly dying as a competitive game. 11th Company is gone, 3++ is gone, Torrent of Fire is gone, Stomping Grounds is gone. Tournament attendance is down. The casual garage scene is doing just fine. I see people at the FLGS playing Apocalypse scale games frequently, but it's always with their buddies.
When you think about playing a game, generally what you want is an experience that involves fair rules that have depth and encourage you to form strategies and apply tactics towards achieving victory. 40k offers the added appeal of playing a game with fun miniatures in a universe with an engaging background. However, GW doesn't understand what a game is anymore, and a lot of players have simply reached the conclusion that playing it for any purpose other than screwing around with pretty models for a few hours is pointless. It is not a game to be played to win. So many, like myself ask why we should play it at all when there are games out there that make achieving victory an engaging and challenging experience.
They might be making a profit, but if that profit decreases year after year there's going to come a point when they aren't making a profit anymore. It's probably many years out, but unless they wise up and change course, you can't have a decline in profit every year and still remain profitable.
I'm no economancer but the point about GW having no debt doesn't seem like it's really that helpful to them. They have MASSIVE costs keeping their stores open, if they hit the point where they are unprofitable things could go downhill very very quickly and having no current debt would be meaningless. When TSR went down they went down quickly, and GW is making a lot of the same mistakes.
slaede wrote: GW is not even close to dying. They're making a profit and have zero debt. 40k is clearly dying as a competitive game. 11th Company is gone, 3++ is gone, Torrent of Fire is gone, Stomping Grounds is gone. Tournament attendance is down. The casual garage scene is doing just fine. I see people at the FLGS playing Apocalypse scale games frequently, but it's always with their buddies.
When you think about playing a game, generally what you want is an experience that involves fair rules that have depth and encourage you to form strategies and apply tactics towards achieving victory. 40k offers the added appeal of playing a game with fun miniatures in a universe with an engaging background. However, GW doesn't understand what a game is anymore, and a lot of players have simply reached the conclusion that playing it for any purpose other than screwing around with pretty models for a few hours is pointless. It is not a game to be played to win. So many, like myself ask why we should play it at all when there are games out there that make achieving victory an engaging and challenging experience.
They might be making a profit, but if that profit decreases year after year there's going to come a point when they aren't making a profit anymore. It's probably many years out, but unless they wise up and change course, you can't have a decline in profit every year and still remain profitable.
I'm no economancer but the point about GW having no debt doesn't seem like it's really that helpful to them. They have MASSIVE costs keeping their stores open, if they hit the point where they are unprofitable things could go downhill very very quickly and having no current debt would be meaningless. When TSR went down they went down quickly, and GW is making a lot of the same mistakes.
They also have a year's profit in cash on their balance sheet. Sales would have to fall off a cliff for them to run out of operating capital quickly. As long as they are making money, they won't be going anywhere, and if sales start to flag, the management will do something to make changes before it gets that bad.
The question you need to consider is whether or not GW is correct that they don't need to make a good game in order to be a profitable company. They are under the impression that the most money is to be made in attracting young teenage boys to the hobby, and churning them. Gamers as a market are not their target audience. They don't care that they're losing the hardcore gamers. They want the kids who will buy a new army and get their friends to buy a new army.
They've got 12m in cash on hand, as at the end of the last FYE. Their operating costs average at ~7m a month, and there's a hefty percentage of that will be fixed costs thanks to the retail chain.
The cliff wouldn't need to be a cliff so much as a steep hill, provided it were long enough. Nobody, at least nobody credible I've seen, predicts their imminent demise, but we're about to see the 5th report in a row showing (apparently) a fall in revenue and profit, don't you think the management would have made changes by now?
Well the reality is they've have, massive changes, it just doesn't seem to be working that well, because they've no idea why people are spending less on their product in the first place.
Power-Armored Space Wolves will no longer satisfy once you experience a Viking charge made by men armored with nothing but beards and harsh language
Yes... because Viking never wore armor, nor did they wield some of the best armor and weapons of their age that they got from trading with everyone from the England to India...
Power-Armored Space Wolves will no longer satisfy once you experience a Viking charge made by men armored with nothing but beards and harsh language
Yes... because Viking never wore armor, nor did they wield some of the best armor and weapons of their age that they got from trading with everyone from the England to India...
Spoiler:
Looks like a Varangian Guard. Viking body guards to the emperor or Byzantium.
I live in South East England, and I'm within a commutable distance of both Wayland Games LGS style stores in existence. I also have several GW stores near me and another club with 10-15 regulars.
Even the indomitable, ever-persistent GW near me with the best community had its veterans quit as far as I can tell. That began for three reasons - one man store policy cutting opening hours, the end of invasion events (there was a whole interstore dynamic and people would base their entire hobby around preparing for them) and the departure of the much loved local manager who understood what people wanted from in store events
I got tired of going down my local club to spend the evening doing something else or at best playing someone with very little experience and an unpainted army, often I come home having wasted my time spending 3/4 of an hour earlier in the day alone prepping a list and putting everything into storage.
Same goes for Wayland. 40k scene is dead there save for probably the odd pair or group of people who arrange a game between themselves. For some utterly ridiculous reason I've yet to find out, they haven't hosted a 40k event in something stupid like 1-2 years, and their last attempts I can recall were all really poorly organised, being unadvertised, with little time for people to get aware, and with low attendance and unclear rules. They still do events for WHFB, a game that is definitively dead in the support sense.
So basically, I live in a place where the game should be thriving by all means, and its basically so dead that I can no longer justify buying things for gaming. Betrayal at Calth will almost certainly be my last purchase from GW at this rate, which I got because it was an extremely good bargain and because I was interested in the board game inside.
I'd say the game really started dying in general near the end of 6th edition where any idiot with a Tau or Eldar army that used either Riptides or Wave Serpents was basically guaranteed easy victories against anyone who hadn't prepared well in advance for that bs. Apologist idiots then defended this with the usual load of drivel like "oh, you just take their objectives". The final nail in the coffin could be said to be the rapid releases but really it was the fact that they made gaming inconvenient from the moment 7th launched. The pricks now had ammunition to say superheavies and whatnot were for regular games, take it or leave it and that was a massive mistake. You didn't know if you'd end up with or even play with a person who took an unbound list every time you went out.
For me, the final, final nail in the coffin that was my interest was the joke of an SM Codex and the fact Necrons and Eldar were released in a disgusting and overpowered state again that even the worst of apologists here have struggled to defend.
Mr.Omega wrote: I live in South East England, and I'm within a commutable distance of both Wayland Games LGS style stores in existence. I also have several GW stores near me and another club with 10-15 regulars.
Even the indomitable, ever-persistent GW near me with the best community had its veterans quit as far as I can tell. That began for three reasons - one man store policy cutting opening hours, the end of invasion events (there was a whole interstore dynamic and people would base their entire hobby around preparing for them) and the departure of the much loved local manager who understood what people wanted from in store events
I got tired of going down my local club to spend the evening doing something else or at best playing someone with very little experience and an unpainted army, often I come home having wasted my time spending 3/4 of an hour earlier in the day alone prepping a list and putting everything into storage.
Same goes for Wayland. 40k scene is dead there save for probably the odd pair or group of people who arrange a game between themselves. For some utterly ridiculous reason I've yet to find out, they haven't hosted a 40k event in something stupid like 1-2 years, and their last attempts I can recall were all really poorly organised, being unadvertised, with little time for people to get aware, and with low attendance and unclear rules. They still do events for WHFB, a game that is definitively dead in the support sense.
So basically, I live in a place where the game should be thriving by all means, and its basically so dead that I can no longer justify buying things for gaming. Betrayal at Calth will almost certainly be my last purchase from GW at this rate, which I got because it was an extremely good bargain and because I was interested in the board game inside.
I'd say the game really started dying in general near the end of 6th edition where any idiot with a Tau or Eldar army that used either Riptides or Wave Serpents was basically guaranteed easy victories against anyone who hadn't prepared well in advance for that bs. Apologist idiots then defended this with the usual load of drivel like "oh, you just take their objectives". The final nail in the coffin could be said to be the rapid releases but really it was the fact that they made gaming inconvenient from the moment 7th launched. The pricks now had ammunition to say superheavies and whatnot were for regular games, take it or leave it and that was a massive mistake. You didn't know if you'd end up with or even play with a person who took an unbound list every time you went out.
For me, the final, final nail in the coffin that was my interest was the joke of an SM Codex and the fact Necrons and Eldar were released in a disgusting and overpowered state again that even the worst of apologists here have struggled to defend.
Odd, I actually liked this rant and agree with it.
I hope you find something to be less angry about.
Let me know if you do...
Omega - exalted the post.
40k is generally unplayable. It is playable in a closed group where everybody is aware of the flaws and caveats. We used to play apo at a monthly basis. But since a few months only about 4 to 6 guys showed up and the interest vanished. Our monthly or bimonthly local tournies which I have organized are dead. The last one was in February 2014. Nobody here wants to play another one.
Valhallan42nd wrote: The cold, hard facts point to GW losing market share and overall sales. There's no disputing that. Regardless of your local meta, there's a still a large decline there.
My concern is for TT miniature wargames in general. How are we as a hobby doing in terms of overall sales? Where are the dollars that are shifting from GW going? Are they going to other hobby games? Board games? Real life expenses?
Basically every other game on the market is growing exponentially, and has been for the last couple years, while GW is shrinking... also exponentially. The hobby, itself, is doing *quite* well. GW, specifically, is not.
They also have a year's profit in cash on their balance sheet. Sales would have to fall off a cliff for them to run out of operating capital quickly. As long as they are making money, they won't be going anywhere, and if sales start to flag, the management will do something to make changes before it gets that bad.
The question you need to consider is whether or not GW is correct that they don't need to make a good game in order to be a profitable company. They are under the impression that the most money is to be made in attracting young teenage boys to the hobby, and churning them. Gamers as a market are not their target audience. They don't care that they're losing the hardcore gamers. They want the kids who will buy a new army and get their friends to buy a new army.
Power-Armored Space Wolves will no longer satisfy once you experience a Viking charge made by men armored with nothing but beards and harsh language
Yes... because Viking never wore armor, nor did they wield some of the best armor and weapons of their age that they got from trading with everyone from the England to India...
Spoiler:
It's called a joke. Seriously, this site sometimes.... any excuse to jump on someone
Melissia wrote: No. The only thing fun about historical games is defying history, rather than reliving it, and most of the utter garbage that qualify as "historical games" out there don't let you. Fantasy and sci-fi are where it's at. At least they encourage creativity instead of stagnation
What about an alternate-history game?. Something with Soviet Superscience, Ghostapo and, of course, Jetpack-Hitler.
Honestly, prior to the release of the 2015 codexes, I almost had my brother-in-law started on Dark Eldar and my other brother playing Tyranids again. Then Necrons hit and my BIL was really apprehensive about dropping a ton of money on an army that could get steam-rolled by an army that wasn't even optimized. Since Craftworlds hit, he has pretty much given up on wanting to start altogether. It doesn't help that he doesn't really have much attachment to the modeling side of the game (he would probably have built everything but then had someone else paint them for him). Dark Eldar were the only army he had any desire to play since he really liked their fluff.
My brother got started up on Tyranids again, but has dropped off significantly since the release of the super-codexes of 2015. He thought Necrons was likely a fluke, but Craftworlds and the new Marines codexes(which are barely in the same league as Necrons, Eldar, or Tau) put a nail in that coffin. It is a shame since I would have really liked to have played against him. He hasn't even touched his existing miniatures in months.
I have a friend that plays Orks and another that plays Guard. Neither of them have touched their miniatures since Necrons.
I have stopped buying Blood Angels since Necrons. I have pretty much focused exclusively on my Crimson Fists, and they are hardly competitive. I have no desire to play a Gladius Strike Force (I would love for Imperial Fists to get their own detachment like Raven Guard and White Scars did).
I used to make an effort to get people to play the game, now I don't. And no matter what GW says, without the game, the models are worthless.
casvalremdeikun wrote: And no matter what GW says, without the game, the models are worthless.
I only wish GW would get that.
With the amount of money I spent on my Blood Angels, I could have bought somewhere around 5-8 Master Grade Gundam kits from Bandai. And at least then I would be getting quality model kits without thinking I was getting a game.
casvalremdeikun wrote: And no matter what GW says, without the game, the models are worthless.
I only wish GW would get that.
I dont even bother buying GW kits these days unless I have too. There are other kits out there which are far superior and are far cheaper. Take Bolt Action's LeIg18 for instanceand then compare it too the quad mortar model,
Power-Armored Space Wolves will no longer satisfy once you experience a Viking charge made by men armored with nothing but beards and harsh language
And bits of wood and metal. There's nothing like flailing bits of wood and metal to bash some brains in
In my area, 40k has no wargaming club support, and the GW stores discourage gaming... This means that you have to go between friends' houses for a game, and, being in England, most people do not have the space for 40k games. This means that there are few, if any, people who still play 40k. There used to be quite a lot of people, but I've now gone from having around a dozen available opponents to only one who is off at University most of the time, in a different part of the country. From what I can gather, 40k is slowly phasing out.
Quick question, would anyone else here think that a GW store being empty on Boxing day would be a bad sign?
What about a GW with massive floor space compared to the usual ones (I'm talking two and a half times the size of the average one man store) but only one single 6x4 table?
I'm just interstate for the holidays and heard my old home town got a GW in the last couple of years so I popped in. The manager said they had a solid community but I saw no signs of that. They only had two display cases as well, the small kind, and they weren't full.....
jonolikespie wrote: Quick question, would anyone else here think that a GW store being empty on Boxing day would be a bad sign?
What about a GW with massive floor space compared to the usual ones (I'm talking two and a half times the size of the average one man store) but only one single 6x4 table?
I'm just interstate for the holidays and heard my old home town got a GW in the last couple of years so I popped in. The manager said they had a solid community but I saw no signs of that. They only had two display cases as well, the small kind, and they weren't full.....
GW doesn't do reduced prices or sales so I wouldn't be surprised that everyone has gone to other shops for the sales,
A GW with a massive floor space but only 1 table isn't unusual these days. That table is for introducing fresh money to the game. Once they buy their first few box sets, they're cut loose and not allowed in store to play (not true of all, but true of many GW stores).
They will say things to give a positive image, in the same way the Conservatives in the UK say the deficit is reduced by their selling off of public assets (it's actually far greater than it's ever been). After all, a lie is already half way around the world by the time the truth has puts it's trousers on
jonolikespie wrote: Quick question, would anyone else here think that a GW store being empty on Boxing day would be a bad sign?
What about a GW with massive floor space compared to the usual ones (I'm talking two and a half times the size of the average one man store) but only one single 6x4 table?
I'm just interstate for the holidays and heard my old home town got a GW in the last couple of years so I popped in. The manager said they had a solid community but I saw no signs of that. They only had two display cases as well, the small kind, and they weren't full.....
I wouldn't expect the period between 23rd December to 1st January to be a good representation of normal business.
jonolikespie wrote: Quick question, would anyone else here think that a GW store being empty on Boxing day would be a bad sign?
What about a GW with massive floor space compared to the usual ones (I'm talking two and a half times the size of the average one man store) but only one single 6x4 table?
I'm just interstate for the holidays and heard my old home town got a GW in the last couple of years so I popped in. The manager said they had a solid community but I saw no signs of that. They only had two display cases as well, the small kind, and they weren't full.....
I wouldn't expect the period between 23rd December to 1st January to be a good representation of normal business.
True, but for most companies that time period is still a time of high sales. Everyone is spending their holiday money, the sales are some of the highest out of the entire year, among other factors.
As GW cannot understand the word "sales", I'd be surprised to see GW make much in the way of sales at that time. Sales on the run up to xmas, I'd expect, but around the 23rd to the 1st, I would be surprised to see anyone bother with GW stores at all.
No. The only thing fun about historical games is defying history, rather than reliving it, and most of the utter garbage that qualify as "historical games" out there don't let you. Fantasy and sci-fi are where it's at. At least they encourage creativity instead of stagnation
Then you'd be wrong.
I've seen far more creativity in historical gaming than I've ever seen in sci fi and fantasy. I've seen a lot of stagnation in the player base - if anything, it's gripped by inertia rather than creativity as a whole,
With respect , you have a very poor understanding of historical games if all you can do is define them as 'reliving history' or 'defying history'. History, frankly, is interesting, it has huge grey areas to explore, and consequently has huge scope for narrative and creativity. It's not necessarily a story that's already been told, or something you 'relive'.
What you describe here specifically is reenactments. And yes. They are a thing. Historicals can be that. Even if it's quite often we don't know exactly what got fielded against what in whatever battle - the historical record is remarkably patchy, misleading or flat out wrong a lot of the time... And let's be honest here - 40k can be as much of a reenactment based game, where people replay, or reinvent many of the iconic battles of the lore - whether it's of the battle of orks drift or any other named battle in the narrative, just as warmachine can be about khador storming point Bourne against cygnar, cryx raiding port vladovar, the battle over the temple garrodh, the battle between cygnar and the protectorate over caspia/sul, any of the named and profiled battles in the lore/expansion books (which literally read like a battle report, so you know precisely what got fielded too) or combined army versus pan-o during the paradiso campaign etc where some of the various order of battle are described either through the lore, or through various official rosters and lists.
But historicals can be so much more than just reenactments as well. And frequently are played as such. They don't have to be reliving a particular battle x. Or y. Take my Normans versus your Vikings or Anglo-Saxons. Imagine a raiding party scenario or any particular story that you find evocative. Over a river ford, town, beach, doomed last stand, defending the breach, or anything else that picks your fancy. Why can't they be striking to rescue a spy or kidnap a particular royal, or other important person of some nameless enemy tribe or enemy force? History is big. There is a huge amount of room there to imagine a premise for a Wargame scenario. No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
The simple truth is that historicals drawn an as much of the 'but, what if', 'yes, this could have happened' and 'wouldn't it be fun if this went up against that' as anything from 40k or any other Wargame. In other words, Normans versus Anglo Saxons and Carthaginians versus Romans is just as open to interpretation as tau versus imperial guard, khador versus cygnar, pan-o versus yu-jing and so on. And frankly. 'What if' scenarios between celts and Mughals which would never have happened historically can be fun. And just as unlikely to be honest as tau versus space wolves (different sides of the 40k galaxy at the end of the day...) or thagrosh1 versus kromac2- champion of the wurm, considering they would never have come across each other in the fluff. Dont be so narrow minded in your definitions of historical gaming. So much of the tapestry that historicals draw on is grey and unknown - we don't know about all the battles thst happened Or even might Have happened in the historical context of the Romans versus the Carthaginians, or the celtiberians, or the Macedonians or Caesar versus the gauls or even a fraction of the battles between the diadachoi thst split Alexander's empire after his death. Heck, or even the Wehrmacht versus the red army. And at the end of the day, what's stopping me doing a Bernard Cornwell or Simon scarrow, and having my own general deadnighticus leading a fictional Roman legion during their conquest of Britain, or having a nameless Norman mercenary and his band of merry men as they fought across Europe during the dark ages? Simply put, there is so much potential there for interesting wargames scenarios thst could have been throughout history that to simply reduce it all to the level of reenactments is being dishonest and just doing yourself a disservice.
The only difference between tau and khador and the Romans at the end of the day is that the Romans are based in a historical narrative, rather than a fictional narrative. From that point, frankly, you can go whatever direction you want. Just as historical fiction/fantasy writers happily go off in their own direction with and against the backdrop of what we know, or think we know, and do a bloody good job of bringing those lost worlds and times to life, we, as wargames players can do exactly the same thing within the context of the narratives and settings we play our games in. They are all woven from the same cloth.
There's plenty of reasons to go into a GW right now, assuming they're open, even just idle curiosity from bored spouses and partners while they're out braving the sales.
It's a peak time of year for retail, students and schoolchildren, as well as many working age adults, are all on holiday, and likely have plenty of spare hobby time now the festive days proper are done and dusted.
Any GW with a "solid community" would likely have a few people in it, even if it is the summer in opposite land.
I've got a little anecdote for this, so just bear with me a moment.
I've recently(as in just over the past week) got bit by the 40k bug again and started to build lists and dust off the old models that I haven't sold yet and I want to start building up my Iron Warriors list again. I've probably spent at least a day of research and working to make the list what I want and have finally made a list that is what I think of when I hear Iron Warriors. but to build my new army up to 2k, i'm looking at atleast 600 and some change to do so.
And since around 2013 or so, other hobbies (like cosplay) have really become more important to me. And quite frankly the not so FLGS I used to play at seems to be the only game in town for 40k since the one I used to help run alongside my best friend closed up last year due to his health issues.
But I miss wargaming and I've tried the X-wing/armada games, but they just don't have the same feel of what I liked in 40k, putting a TON of plastic on the board and playing armymen with more expensive plastic and some rather meh rules with your friends. I've never been a fan of small scale skirmishes, so the other games that I usually see floating around just don't scratch that itch.
I keep coming back because of the lore and the memories I have of getting beat like I was on fire back when I was playing my old Tau back in 5th(which I sold last year to fund my chaos because I apparently have something against winning ) but when I see less and less people playing in shops and fewer shops even trying to run events( even the Not so FLGS has just about stopped promoting 40k events) It makes me wonder if when the 40k bug bites, if I should just hop on steam and play the Dawn of War games or hop on Vassal(assuming that's still a thing) instead of investing what could be 500 dollars in EVA foam or Fabric for another costume or tickets and provisions for an out of town Convention.
And that's really the question:
Why drop 600-700 bucks into something that your local community no longer supports? If you have a thriving 40k community and you enjoy the game, you'll get your money's worth. But not everywhere seems to have a 40k community like their x-wing Infinity and Warmahordes communities or even their MTG YuGiOh and Pokemon TCG communities.
Right now I've got my 250 points of Iron Warriors and as much as I'd like to place my order with GW and FW for Vindicators and Hell Talons/Blades and the Chaos Knight and all sort of other things that just look awesome, I can't justify that kind of an investment for a game that I most likely won't play more than once every couple months due to lack of local interest.
jonolikespie wrote: Quick question, would anyone else here think that a GW store being empty on Boxing day would be a bad sign?
What about a GW with massive floor space compared to the usual ones (I'm talking two and a half times the size of the average one man store) but only one single 6x4 table?
I'm just interstate for the holidays and heard my old home town got a GW in the last couple of years so I popped in. The manager said they had a solid community but I saw no signs of that. They only had two display cases as well, the small kind, and they weren't full.....
I wouldn't expect the period between 23rd December to 1st January to be a good representation of normal business.
Other than the fact that December 27th (The first day they are open after Christmas. I guess they made an exception this year as Boxing Day was on a Saturday) was known amongst GW staffers as "Hell Day" due to the massive amounts of customers buying stuff with Christmas money and/or returning unwanted gifts.
GW stores were known to be packed after Christmas in the past.
jonolikespie wrote: Quick question, would anyone else here think that a GW store being empty on Boxing day would be a bad sign?
What about a GW with massive floor space compared to the usual ones (I'm talking two and a half times the size of the average one man store) but only one single 6x4 table?
I'm just interstate for the holidays and heard my old home town got a GW in the last couple of years so I popped in. The manager said they had a solid community but I saw no signs of that. They only had two display cases as well, the small kind, and they weren't full.....
I wouldn't expect the period between 23rd December to 1st January to be a good representation of normal business.
Other than the fact that December 27th (The first day they are open after Christmas. I guess they made an exception this year as Boxing Day was on a Saturday) was known amongst GW staffers as "Hell Day" due to the massive amounts of customers buying stuff with Christmas money and/or returning unwanted gifts.
GW stores were known to be packed after Christmas in the past.
My local GW used to be packed every weekend and most evenings. Packed as in you struggled to move in there.
The staff used to make a killing on sales and everyone was happy.
These days it is empty most days and even the weekend crowd is nothing compared to what it was. People have moved on to other games that are cheaper, have better models and are well written and balanced.
Deadnight wrote: No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
And then the pedants go around bitching about how "oh that's not realistic!" or "oh that's not historical". And there's far, FAR more of them, in my experience, when referencing ANYTHING historical.
Deadnight wrote: No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
And then the pedants go around bitching about how "oh that's not realistic!" or "oh that's not historical". And there's far, FAR more of them, in my experience, when referencing ANYTHING historical.
While there are some that do, every hobby has the same morons. 40k has far worse fluff nazis. Your points was....
Deadnight wrote: No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
And then the pedants go around bitching about how "oh that's not realistic!" or "oh that's not historical". And there's far, FAR more of them, in my experience, when referencing ANYTHING historical.
While there are some that do, every hobby has the same morons. 40k has far worse fluff nazis. Your points was....
I'd say Star Trek is worse than history with accuracy.
There's a whole lot that can be done with history. Some history is crazier than most fantasy or sci-fi I've read.
Roman legionnaires fighting Chinese? Check.
Medieval religious fanatics using armored carts and lots of guns? Check. (Hussites)
A siege more lopsided than the one in Return of the king? Check. (Siege of Malta...and actually that battle in Return of the King was actually copied from history. Siege of Vienna by the Turks.)
Deadnight wrote: No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
And then the pedants go around bitching about how "oh that's not realistic!" or "oh that's not historical". And there's far, FAR more of them, in my experience, when referencing ANYTHING historical.
While there are some that do, every hobby has the same morons. 40k has far worse fluff nazis. Your points was....
Deadnight wrote: No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
And then the pedants go around bitching about how "oh that's not realistic!" or "oh that's not historical". And there's far, FAR more of them, in my experience, when referencing ANYTHING historical.
And so what if they do?
Those are 'rivet counters' and they're the butt end of a lot of jokes in the historical community, and by no means a representation. There's certainly not far more of them, certainly in my experience abs those that I know. They're a bad joke, if anything
And certainly no worse than the arguments, excuses and gnashing of teeth you see from all sorts of 40k pedants, be them fluff nazis, power gamers, casual at all costs players Waac and tfg gamers and so on. Or trying to define the entire community and it's games based on them,
Just go mention 'can I play forgeworld' or 'is my eldar ok' to hear the howls of anguish,
So I'm afraid your point doesn't stand up as well as you'd like it to. Historicals are fun.
Deadnight wrote: No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
And then the pedants go around bitching about how "oh that's not realistic!" or "oh that's not historical". And there's far, FAR more of them, in my experience, when referencing ANYTHING historical.
This is an interesting angle to view historicals, but the thread actually is about 40K.
Personally I don't think it is dying, it is just going through what everything does. It was the biggest and only one on the block. Other people move in and take part of the market share because it offers greater appeal to them. GW made a bunch of mistakes as a result of being the biggest it could get away with things. Now they are slowly taking steps to rectify their errors like the new cheaper starter boxes thst are coming out, vouchers, electronic items, updates instead of full replacements, rules in the boxes, etc
Leth wrote: Personally I don't think it is dying, it is just going through what everything does. It was the biggest and only one on the block. Other people move in and take part of the market share because it offers greater appeal to them. GW made a bunch of mistakes as a result of being the biggest it could get away with things. Now they are slowly taking steps to rectify their errors like the new cheaper starter boxes thst are coming out, vouchers, electronic items, updates instead of full replacements, rules in the boxes, etc
The problem is that most of that is either band-aid stuff or is half of what's driving people away. Electronic items have several problems. Web-only sales means stuff is sold out in minutes before many ever have a chance to buy and their local stores don't get any in and the e-books are monstrously overpriced for providing what every other tabletop gaming company provides for free (or priced at half or less what GW charges). Update books instead of full replacements will leave armies that are in desperate need of an update will be in even worse shape.The "cheaper" start boxes coming out are, in most cases, just returning to what prices *used* to be for the same products just a couple of years ago, some still not even matching that.
I think what we're seeing at the moment is the impact of the Apocaypsation of 40K filtering through to the pick up games at clubs and shops
While the sandbox nature of 40K (and AoS) works fine for the basement gamer, it doesn't work very well for pick up games. Interestingly the games that do appear to be gaining traction are those that try to embrace pick up games via organised play.
The thing with GW that always baffles me is that it often seems to actively want to push different types of gamer away from it's games - first the tournament player, now the pick up gamer.
I wonder if GW knows it's market well enough that it thinks it can sustain itself with the basement gamers and collectors.
Bartali wrote: I think what we're seeing at the moment is the impact of the Apocaypsation of 40K filtering through to the pick up games at clubs and shops
While the sandbox nature of 40K (and AoS) works fine for the basement gamer, it doesn't work very well for pick up games. Interestingly the games that do appear to be gaining traction are those that try to embrace pick up games via organised play.
The thing with GW that always baffles me is that it often seems to actively want to push different types of gamer away from it's games - first the tournament player, now the pick up gamer.
I wonder if GW knows it's market well enough that it thinks it can sustain itself with the basement gamers and collectors.
I think the last few years has been the community struggling to come to terms with this change in the game. In my experience however, were finally comin to a good spot on it. Our local "group" of players congregated around a city wide Fb group has coalesced around a soft "no low" rule for pick up games that works great, and allows people to discuss whether they might want to play with them or not. This edition of 40k is actually great for the age of social media. It's just been a bit rocky as communities are only now finally adapting themselves to the 21st century.
I find it ironic that you talk about communities adapting themselves to the 21st century, whilst GW's policies on marketing and technology seem to be stuck fast in the 80s.
vipoid wrote: I find it ironic that you talk about communities adapting themselves to the 21st century, whilst GW's policies on marketing and technology seem to be stuck fast in the 80s.
Maybe, but we're still having a lot of fun with 40k so I don't really give a feth.
The more I think about 40k, the more I think the largest problem is no set standard game rules. I'm happy Las your city is having success, mine imploded. Pick up games have died off, its all prearranged and never shall the various groups interact. There is outright scorn being levied against some groups for wanting to use LOW or by the book rules. It just silly that what was once a large tournament community has become a Gamers Wastleand of survivors of the 40k fallout.
Meanwhile Dropzone is something all the groups are coming together to play. So clearly the people can play together, but everyone has different visions of 40k. That's a big problem that I see for the success of the game.
A lot of other people aren't having a lot of fun with 40K and would like to discuss why and what could be done about it.
Thanks for staying on topic.
I don't see how me sharing a contrary opinion on the topic requires a sarcastic comment from a mod.
Thimn wrote: The more I think about 40k, the more I think the largest problem is no set standard game rules. I'm happy Las your city is having success, mine imploded. Pick up games have died off, its all prearranged and never shall the various groups interact. There is outright scorn being levied against some groups for wanting to use LOW or by the book rules. It just silly that what was once a large tournament community has become a Gamers Wastleand of survivors of the 40k fallout.
Meanwhile Dropzone is something all the groups are coming together to play. So clearly the people can play together, but everyone has different visions of 40k. That's a big problem that I see for the success of the game.
That sucks to hear. I think that's part of it though, many game groups are still very insular and not ready to compromise in order to widen their avilable player group. That certainly was the case here until the right people got together. I feel like it's either the shift happens or people get fed up with factionalism and move to different games.
And the groups have moved on to Warmachine and Dropzone. I see more games of Warmachine being played, and also pick up games, since there is a preset standard of rules. Dropzone is gaining in popularity as more people pick up armies, but those games are mostly prearranged.
It's a shame GW can't see the problem. If you make the system Open you are actually restricting players becuase players want to field all of their shiny toys but it creates balance issues. And each group sees other items to be the problem. So there is no consensus on what to bring or even what rule system to use.
I will be completely honest, diving into Dropzone and Warmachine after so many years of supporting GW feels refreshing. Nice clean rules and no social media ostracism for wanting to play the game a certain way. I would think most of the other players switching would say the same.
In the DFW area, some shops are VERY 40k heavy, while others are pretty light on it. The shop I go to is one of the big 3 for 40k, every Tuesday it is jam packed, and apoc games happen about once a month. Monthly tournament is always booming, and other tournaments pop up all over the city.
Flames of War is the next biggest game at the LGS I visit, it has a pretty big community. Next, Kings of War has been getting a bunch of players, then Hordes/Warmachine seems to do OK at this shop, and AoS nights are pretty full.
The other local game shops are pretty active as well, from what I can tell on their facebook pages when tournament recaps pop up, same with people LFG at that shop. We have a decent sized facebook group for 40k players in the area that keeps the hobby fresh and active.
There is no sign of any tabletop game going under around here. Even the old Fantasy stuff keeps selling well.
A lot of other people aren't having a lot of fun with 40K and would like to discuss why and what could be done about it.
Thanks for staying on topic.
I don't see how me sharing a contrary opinion on the topic requires a sarcastic comment from a mod.
Possibly it was the way you phrased it.
Intentionally or not, it came across as 'feth you, I got mine'. Which is neither polite, nor constructive.
Yeah, I was being snippy because it's tiring having everything twisted back to how much GW sucks regardless of context. Same as my comment it may not have been intentional, but still.
Thimn wrote: The more I think about 40k, the more I think the largest problem is no set standard game rules. I'm happy Las your city is having success, mine imploded. Pick up games have died off, its all prearranged and never shall the various groups interact. There is outright scorn being levied against some groups for wanting to use LOW or by the book rules. It just silly that what was once a large tournament community has become a Gamers Wastleand of survivors of the 40k fallout.
Meanwhile Dropzone is something all the groups are coming together to play. So clearly the people can play together, but everyone has different visions of 40k. That's a big problem that I see for the success of the game.
That sucks to hear. I think that's part of it though, many game groups are still very insular and not ready to compromise in order to widen their avilable player group. That certainly was the case here until the right people got together. I feel like it's either the shift happens or people get fed up with factionalism and move to different games.
You can always form your own game group. It's not very hard to organize, and all you need is one person with a nice attic/basement, a supportive independent, or GW store, if it's 40k/AoS. Maybe I'm just lucky because of the nature of our city, but rarely a month goes by without a stranger in an FLGS asking if I want to join a group or start a group.
I know that private or semi-privat4e gaming groups aren't for everyone, but to me, it's just infinitely better than the pickup scene. It might be more predictable, but win, lose, or draw, you never get a bad game. Also, with how long 40k takes, I don't get that many games in a year in anyhow, so it's not like it actually ever feels repetitive.
Yeah, I was being snippy because it's tiring having everything twisted back to how much GW sucks regardless of context. Same as my comment it may not have been intentional, but still.
No more tiring than hearing people praise every failing of GW and 40k.
You can always form your own game group. It's not very hard to organize, and all you need is one person with a nice attic/basement, a supportive independent, or GW store, if it's 40k/AoS.
I wouldn't call easy to organize something that requires owning an an attic/basement or a whole FLGS.
Yeah, I was being snippy because it's tiring having everything twisted back to how much GW sucks regardless of context. Same as my comment it may not have been intentional, but still.
No more tiring than hearing people praise every failing of GW and 40k.
Again, I was discussing a very specific thing I've noticed in how some gaming communities have adapted in a way that correlates with the changing nature of the game. Does everything always have to be dragged into a "duck/rabbit season" shouting match?
Well it isn't realy the gamers foult that GW does stuff wrong or does bad stuff. How am I or community in my city responsible for the fact that GW killed 3 out of 4 shops in it, by a combination of not letting them sell stuff people want, forcing them to buy stuff that will never sell and forcing them to sign up that they will always buy their stuff from GW directly and never from germany, and that they will never under cut GW price range. And then being late with shipment for about 2-3 weeks everytime something new comes out.
Thimn wrote: The more I think about 40k, the more I think the largest problem is no set standard game rules. I'm happy Las your city is having success, mine imploded. Pick up games have died off, its all prearranged and never shall the various groups interact. There is outright scorn being levied against some groups for wanting to use LOW or by the book rules. It just silly that what was once a large tournament community has become a Gamers Wastleand of survivors of the 40k fallout.
Meanwhile Dropzone is something all the groups are coming together to play. So clearly the people can play together, but everyone has different visions of 40k. That's a big problem that I see for the success of the game.
That sucks to hear. I think that's part of it though, many game groups are still very insular and not ready to compromise in order to widen their avilable player group. That certainly was the case here until the right people got together. I feel like it's either the shift happens or people get fed up with factionalism and move to different games.
You can always form your own game group. It's not very hard to organize, and all you need is one person with a nice attic/basement, a supportive independent, or GW store, if it's 40k/AoS. Maybe I'm just lucky because of the nature of our city, but rarely a month goes by without a stranger in an FLGS asking if I want to join a group or start a group.
I know that private or semi-privat4e gaming groups aren't for everyone, but to me, it's just infinitely better than the pickup scene. It might be more predictable, but win, lose, or draw, you never get a bad game. Also, with how long 40k takes, I don't get that many games in a year in anyhow, so it's not like it actually ever feels repetitive.
That is the problem, we have to many groups and I lead one of them. People in the other groups prefer to play the game with a different ruleset than we do, in regards to 40k. We have about 7 clubs that I'm aware of and they all do it differently. The lack of a common ruleset that is specific in what's allowed and relatively balanced has deeply fragmented my area.
Like I said, the groups play other games together, just not 40k.
So this is my experience only. I do not know if 40k is dieing or just waning. I know I used to attend all the local RTT's in a fairly large area. I would travel to most RTT's in the Omaha,NB area all the way to the Minneapolis,MN area. I own 3 40k armies, 2 of witch are well over 6K points each, SoB and Crimson Fists. I would attend a couple of the regional GTs in the midwest also.
But..... This year several of my favorite podcasts have ended. This was not new as I have hobbied through Dice Like Thunder, and 40k Radio ending. But Independent Characters and 11th Company ending was a real blow to my hobby. I used to only paint to podcasts.... No podcasts, no painting. My Hobbying took a huge hit painting wise. Nothing has filled the gaps for these podcasts for me..
Codex releases has also killed my motivation. For some reason with so much stuff coming out, my eyes have just glazed over and somewhere I stopped caring about the new and shiny. I used to love getting the white dwarf and looking for what the new release would be in 4-5 months.... and I would love reading Faeit to see the rumors. Now I can not tell you the last time I visited his site. My collection of WD are sitting idle, not collecting new issues, never to be a complete collection again. There is just too much new rules and models. Their is no time to plan an army and update it slowly any more. Now I have to look at every release to see if I should use it for my army as a detachment. Just too much.
Then there are the other new games. The new hotness. I picked up x-wing but didn't really get into it. Not many play it in rural Iowa. Untill I taught my son how to play last month, it was dead on my shelf. Now he has his cousin hooked and I'm collecting several forces to play with. Then their was Bolt Action...... The game 40k should be. I love this game. the dice mechanic to all the armies being very similar in power. This game has scene steady increases in the player base and alot of the new players are coming from 40k and fantasy. I think this is why 30k is gaining popularity too is the forces are similar in power. All my Bolt Action games have been coming down to the last turn, and this makes the game exciting and fun. I don't have to worry about the power level of my army like i do with 40k.
Terrain... Funny thing happened as I started playing alot of Bolt Action, I started making tons of terrain for more realistic boards. And it was fun... I will have spent more on terrain and spent more time making terrain this year than on my armies.
So is 40k dieing? Yes it died some since I have not painted a single 40k miniature this year. I have not attended a RTT or GT this year. I have not bought any 40k figures or terrain for 40k boards this year. Is it permanent....? I don't know. I have not sold my armies or terrain. I look at tournaments and think "that would be fun". Heck this is the first time for 4-5 months I have been on Dakka.. I don't think I'm the only one this has happened too either.
Bartali wrote: I think what we're seeing at the moment is the impact of the Apocaypsation of 40K filtering through to the pick up games at clubs and shops
While the sandbox nature of 40K (and AoS) works fine for the basement gamer, it doesn't work very well for pick up games. Interestingly the games that do appear to be gaining traction are those that try to embrace pick up games via organised play.
The thing with GW that always baffles me is that it often seems to actively want to push different types of gamer away from it's games - first the tournament player, now the pick up gamer.
I wonder if GW knows it's market well enough that it thinks it can sustain itself with the basement gamers and collectors.
This sums it up nicely. Exalted!
We have the tournament players and the pickup gamers on one hand and the basement gamers on the other hand.
GW's policy seems to push painters, collectors, and basement gamers while it leaves tournament and pickup gamers behind.
Thimn wrote: The more I think about 40k, the more I think the largest problem is no set standard game rules. I'm happy Las your city is having success, mine imploded. Pick up games have died off, its all prearranged and never shall the various groups interact. There is outright scorn being levied against some groups for wanting to use LOW or by the book rules. It just silly that what was once a large tournament community has become a Gamers Wastleand of survivors of the 40k fallout.
Meanwhile Dropzone is something all the groups are coming together to play. So clearly the people can play together, but everyone has different visions of 40k. That's a big problem that I see for the success of the game.
That sucks to hear. I think that's part of it though, many game groups are still very insular and not ready to compromise in order to widen their avilable player group. That certainly was the case here until the right people got together. I feel like it's either the shift happens or people get fed up with factionalism and move to different games.
You can always form your own game group. It's not very hard to organize, and all you need is one person with a nice attic/basement, a supportive independent, or GW store, if it's 40k/AoS. Maybe I'm just lucky because of the nature of our city, but rarely a month goes by without a stranger in an FLGS asking if I want to join a group or start a group.
I know that private or semi-privat4e gaming groups aren't for everyone, but to me, it's just infinitely better than the pickup scene. It might be more predictable, but win, lose, or draw, you never get a bad game. Also, with how long 40k takes, I don't get that many games in a year in anyhow, so it's not like it actually ever feels repetitive.
I play in a 'kitchen table' group. We all grew up with 80s D&D, so we're probably close to the Jervis mindset. It's good fun with friends, and once you've agreed the ruleset there's generally zero issues.
However we only tend to play every 2-3 months, and we generally tend to use the same army each time. We're not exactly driving sales for GW.
My pick up game of choice is currently Bolt Action and that's getting the majority of my hobby £'s. Looking forward to getting back into club leagues and maybe the odd tournament
Well, it appears that our gaming group is tired of tourneys and apo games atm.
Tomorrow, we'l play a new format that we haven't played yet: 2 vs. 2, 3000 pts each player, i.e., 6000 pts each side.
With 12 players this will be quite an interesting ''event''.
I'll play WE traitor legion led by Angron and my buddy plays traitor Guard.
Bartali wrote: I think what we're seeing at the moment is the impact of the Apocaypsation of 40K filtering through to the pick up games at clubs and shops
While the sandbox nature of 40K (and AoS) works fine for the basement gamer, it doesn't work very well for pick up games. Interestingly the games that do appear to be gaining traction are those that try to embrace pick up games via organised play.
The thing with GW that always baffles me is that it often seems to actively want to push different types of gamer away from it's games - first the tournament player, now the pick up gamer.
I wonder if GW knows it's market well enough that it thinks it can sustain itself with the basement gamers and collectors.
This sums it up nicely. Exalted!
We have the tournament players and the pickup gamers on one hand and the basement gamers on the other hand.
GW's policy seems to push painters, collectors, and basement gamers while it leaves tournament and pickup gamers behind.
Which is silly because you can (and should!) appeal to both groups simultaneously. The miniatures themselves appeal to the collectors/painters. A good set of rules would appeal to everybody because things become more balanced and fair (tournament and pickup gamers like this) but easily expandable (the basement gamers like this). The breadth and depth of the background material lends itself to publishing campaign supplements that push the "narrative" gaming style (basement gamers like this, even some pickup gamers or tournament gamers might). But it all falls back on having a solid, balanced set of core rules and push the game as more than a "social experiment" involving pushing figures around and rolling lots of dice.
casvalremdeikun wrote: And no matter what GW says, without the game, the models are worthless.
I only wish GW would get that.
Amen.
What makes the models exciting is not just their details, it is the thought of what they do in the game.
The pricing for these models cannot be justified without a game context for the casual user.
It has been demonstrated that some really like the esthetic of the models.
There is an exception to every rule the crux of the matter is: are they in the minority?
That is what will determine if "40k is dying".
If the OP was named "Is 40k as a game dying?" according to GW it already is.
Deadnight wrote: No different to any narrative you can create in a sci fi or fantasy game really.
And then the pedants go around bitching about how "oh that's not realistic!" or "oh that's not historical". And there's far, FAR more of them, in my experience, when referencing ANYTHING historical.
I would say from my experience there are two types of historical gamer: the historical simulator (I think you are referring to) and more of an "alternative history" type.
In the end, yes the first type can be sticky about historical accuracy but it boils down to "could things have ended differently in that battle within that framework".
You will still hear as many "bitching" about the Horus Heresy and how certain scenarios do not fit the fluff.
Gamers/geeks like to show off their knowledge of the framework around that battle, there is no avoiding the stickler for detail science fiction or not.
I do not mind it, I tend to remind them we are not looking for a predetermined outcome or it is not worth playing.
You can always form your own game group. It's not very hard to organize, and all you need is one person with a nice attic/basement, a supportive independent, or GW store, if it's 40k/AoS.
I wouldn't call easy to organize something that requires owning an an attic/basement or a whole FLGS.
Space in a room is all you need, really. Be smart with your usage and storage of your boards and you won't have any problems- a four by four board, or a six by four that folds in two up against the wall isn't taking up massive space at the end of the day. And it can be brought out, and put on any level surface. It's not a huge investment, not is it a massive headache to maintain.
Over Half a dozen of my friends have gaming boards in their flats/houses, and they range in size from one who has a small four foot by four foot board in his kitchen/living room that he can fold away (and his flat is the size of a closet!), and is perfect for warmachine to another who has a twelve by six foot board in his garage and is perfect for mass battles.
Martel732 wrote: Maybe gw will give up on rules and let someone else do them.
One can only hope...
Space in a room is all you need, really. Be smart with your usage and storage of your boards and you won't have any problems- a four by four board, or a six by four that folds in two up against the wall isn't taking up massive space at the end of the day. And it can be brought out, and put on any level surface. It's not a huge investment, not is it a massive headache to maintain.
Over Half a dozen of my friends have gaming boards in their flats/houses, and they range in size from one who has a small four foot by four foot board in his kitchen/living room that he can fold away (and his flat is the size of a closet!), and is perfect for warmachine to another who has a twelve by six foot board in his garage and is perfect for mass battles.
You can't build the hobby off of some dude having a tiny little gaming board in his room.. as opposed to a game store having *twenty* + a place for people to congregate. I do admit, I assume you're talking about the UK due to the use of the word "flat".. in the US we have a massive amount of space and are spread apart.. Game stores are required to build communities.
You can't build the hobby off of some dude having a tiny little gaming board in his room.. as opposed to a game store having *twenty* + a place for people to congregate. I do admit, I assume you're talking about the UK due to the use of the word "flat".. in the US we have a massive amount of space and are spread apart.. Game stores are required to build communities.
No they’re not. Gamers and hobbyists are what are required to build communities. They can be its strongest feature, or its weakest link. They are what makes it strong, or makes it fall apart. A store might act as a useful nexus, but at the end of the day, its what you make of it that counts. And plenty gaming stores never end up being anything special. Since they might be in dodgy locations, run by unsavoury people, may draw the wrong/different crowd, lack space or may be unsuitable for any number of other reasons.
And yes, you can build the hobby from home. My mate’s small flat is enough to have a few mates over chatting and hanging out at the end of the day. Gaming at home has its advantages - namely that you can be selective as to who you will invite, and it encourages a more laid back relaxed and friendly atmosphere. You can do things at home that often can't really be done in a public store (have a beer, bbq, have the TV and good music on dtc). Bear in mind. I don't see it as a zero sum equation either. I'm not saying 'gaming at home is better', or 'store gaming sucks'. Or vice versa. Both can coexist, both have merits, and both can strengthen each other. Everyone can get value from embracing not one, Not the other, but both.You don’t necessarily need twenty people either, but eventually, if it grows to that level, you need to step out from the basement. Fair enough.
Game stores can work, for sure as a venue. But they’re not the only option. One of the gaming groups in my city holds their game nights at the local RAF veterans club. I know of others that host theirs in the back room of a pub, library, community centre or ive heard of one that uses a church hall (the priest apparently is happy to have kids in doing something and engaging in a creative hobby away from their x-stations and playcubes, and not out on the street causing trouble, or potentially coming to any harm). Gaming at home with friends is perfectly functional as well. Being spread apart is no excuse either. You travel to somewhere – what’s wrong with travelling to your mate’s house if he is hosting it? Bbq out the back, have a few beers etc if you are lucky… tea and coffee otherwise, and hey, they’re your mates, so why not have them come over?
being honest, not every community is as large as 20+, nor is it always desireable to be that large. Sometimes, a smaller, tighter, more cohesive group with a like minded mentality towards their gaming goes just as far, if not further and can have huge staying power. I've seen stores come and go, and with them, their transient gamers. And all that time, those that are playing at home carry on what theyRe doing. A lot of groups max out at a dozen, or a handful of close friends, and that’s OK too. Really, all you need is one person to start with. For example, Last ‘all day gaming’ I went to was at a mates house, who had an 8 by 4 set up in one of the rooms that was enough for 2 games to be running. And while some were playing, others were watching, talking, catching up and so on. Probably about a dozen of us were there and some of us hadn’t caught up with others in about six months. And That, at the end of the day, is you build a community – you don’t build anything with a random group of strangers meeting in a neutral venue – that’s fine for a gunfight at dawn. you build a community when those strangers become friends, and when those friends hang out and build on their mutual enjoyment of their games, and More importantly, beyond those games. Most Fridays I play at my mates house with the 12 by six, and he usually hosts between 4 and six people – tight group, and we get a lot of very good games out of it.
Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.
Enjoy it for what it is.
I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
You can't build the hobby off of some dude having a tiny little gaming board in his room.. as opposed to a game store having *twenty* + a place for people to congregate. I do admit, I assume you're talking about the UK due to the use of the word "flat".. in the US we have a massive amount of space and are spread apart.. Game stores are required to build communities.
No they’re not. Gamers and hobbyists are what are required to build communities. They can be its strongest feature, or its weakest link. They are what makes it strong, or makes it fall apart. A store might act as a useful nexus, but at the end of the day, its what you make of it that counts. And plenty gaming stores never end up being anything special. Since they might be in dodgy locations, run by unsavoury people, may draw the wrong/different crowd, lack space or may be unsuitable for any number of other reasons.
And yes, you can build the hobby from home. My mate’s small flat is enough to have a few mates over chatting and hanging out at the end of the day. Gaming at home has its advantages - namely that you can be selective as to who you will invite, and it encourages a more laid back relaxed and friendly atmosphere. You can do things at home that often can't really be done in a public store (have a beer, bbq, have the TV and good music on dtc). Bear in mind. I don't see it as a zero sum equation either. I'm not saying 'gaming at home is better', or 'store gaming sucks'. Or vice versa. Both can coexist, both have merits, and both can strengthen each other. Everyone can get value from embracing not one, Not the other, but both.You don’t necessarily need twenty people either, but eventually, if it grows to that level, you need to step out from the basement. Fair enough.
Game stores can work, for sure as a venue. But they’re not the only option. One of the gaming groups in my city holds their game nights at the local RAF veterans club. I know of others that host theirs in the back room of a pub, library, community centre or ive heard of one that uses a church hall (the priest apparently is happy to have kids in doing something and engaging in a creative hobby away from their x-stations and playcubes, and not out on the street causing trouble, or potentially coming to any harm). Gaming at home with friends is perfectly functional as well. Being spread apart is no excuse either. You travel to somewhere – what’s wrong with travelling to your mate’s house if he is hosting it? Bbq out the back, have a few beers etc if you are lucky… tea and coffee otherwise, and hey, they’re your mates, so why not have them come over?
being honest, not every community is as large as 20+, nor is it always desireable to be that large. Sometimes, a smaller, tighter, more cohesive group with a like minded mentality towards their gaming goes just as far, if not further and can have huge staying power. I've seen stores come and go, and with them, their transient gamers. And all that time, those that are playing at home carry on what theyRe doing. A lot of groups max out at a dozen, or a handful of close friends, and that’s OK too. Really, all you need is one person to start with. For example, Last ‘all day gaming’ I went to was at a mates house, who had an 8 by 4 set up in one of the rooms that was enough for 2 games to be running. And while some were playing, others were watching, talking, catching up and so on. Probably about a dozen of us were there and some of us hadn’t caught up with others in about six months. And That, at the end of the day, is you build a community – you don’t build anything with a random group of strangers meeting in a neutral venue – that’s fine for a gunfight at dawn. you build a community when those strangers become friends, and when those friends hang out and build on their mutual enjoyment of their games, and More importantly, beyond those games. Most Fridays I play at my mates house with the 12 by six, and he usually hosts between 4 and six people – tight group, and we get a lot of very good games out of it.
I think you're conflating "group" and "community."
There's no way I'm going to open up my home for complete strangers to wander in and out and play games whenever they like, irrespective of how much space I have.
My gaming friends originate from the existence of a local FLGS once upon a time, I didn't just happen to be friends with people who also happened to be gamers, I met gamers who ultimately became my friends. Had there been no nexus for that to happen, I don't honestly see how we'd even have met, let alone established any sort of social gaming group.
Should real life intervene, where is your tight group of 4-6 people going to get new members?
Groups may form spontaneously occasionally, but a FLGS or club are nearly always going to be needed as a catalyst.
Loborocket wrote: I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
I'm interested why you think the posters in one thread are representative of Dakka as a community, when you deny that the posters to Dakka (one of the largest, most international communities) are not representative of the 40k community.
If you go looking for drama, you'll find it. If you go looking for tactical discussions, battle reports, painting blogs, or debates about the background, you can find that as well.
Dwelling on a handful of negative threads says more about you than it does about the mods or what kind of place they run.
Loborocket wrote: Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.
Enjoy it for what it is.
I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
You really struggle with people not thinking the same as you don't you?
The evidence for the drop off in 40K is all there, all someone, such as yourself, who disagrees has to do is construct an argument, supported with healthy amounts of evidence and reasoning, of course, to the contrary, then we can all debate the merits of that argument.
What isn't useful is somebody posting complaining about complaining, criticising other users for sharing an opinon that they don't agree with and criticising the moderators for not essentially turning the whole board into some sort of propaganda machine for GW.
Get over it, and, frankly, if you don't check back in a couple of months, nobody will miss you.
Loborocket wrote: I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
I'm interested why you think the posters in one thread are representative of Dakka as a community, when you deny that the posters to Dakka (one of the largest, most international communities) are not representative of the 40k community.
If you go looking for drama, you'll find it. If you go looking for tactical discussions, battle reports, painting blogs, or debates about the background, you can find that as well.
Dwelling on a handful of negative threads says more about you than it does about the mods or what kind of place they run.
Drama and negativity finds its' way into too many threads at dakka in my opinion. You don't need to look too far to find it. IN my local "real world" 40k community that is pretty much the semtiment too. Real or imagined that is the reputation of this online forum/community. I realize it is a few Sad negative people who show up time and time again in multiple threads, but they make it a sad place to come for a visit.
Loborocket wrote: Drama and negativity finds its' way into too many threads at dakka in my opinion. You don't need to look too far to find it. IN my local "real world" 40k community that is pretty much the semtiment too. Real or imagined that is the reputation of this online forum/community. I realize it is a few Sad negative people who show up time and time again in multiple threads, but they make it a sad place to come for a visit.
that's a fairer sentiment. You feel it's too negative, and you don't enjoy posting here. That's a perfectly fine attitude to take.
In my internet experience, the posting here is quite passionate, which can be both good and bad. It's good because you can get a lot of feedback or discussion for a painting log or army list. It's bad because some conversations can become negative. You take the good with the bad in a lightly moderated, high volume forum.
And sitting on a high horse, labeling people as "sad" isn't exactly building a rich sense of community. It's the first rule of complaining: disliking a thing is an opinion, and worth sharing. Disliking a person, or their behavior, is a personal judgment generally not worth sharing publically.
Loborocket wrote: Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.
Enjoy it for what it is.
I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
What's wrong with people discussing this? That's why the forum is here!
... And That, at the end of the day, is you build a community – you don’t build anything with a random group of strangers meeting in a neutral venue – that’s fine for a gunfight at dawn. you build a community when those strangers become friends, and when those friends hang out and build on their mutual enjoyment of their games, and More importantly, beyond those games. Most Fridays I play at my mates house with the 12 by six, and he usually hosts between 4 and six people – tight group, and we get a lot of very good games out of it.
Okay but how do those strangers meet your group? Do you post on craigslist or something that they can just randomly show up at your house for some 40k? A private group is not a community. An easily accessible central meeting place is how those are formed. Also a community doesn't require a "tight group of friends" because when a key person leaves the group often falls apart where as a community of non-related people moves on.
I think you're conflating "group" and "community."
There's no way I'm going to open up my home for complete strangers to wander in and out and play games whenever they like, irrespective of how much space I have.
My gaming friends originate from the existence of a local FLGS once upon a time, I didn't just happen to be friends with people who also happened to be gamers, I met gamers who ultimately became my friends. Had there been no nexus for that to happen, I don't honestly see how we'd even have met, let alone established any sort of social gaming group.
Should real life intervene, where is your tight group of 4-6 people going to get new members?
Groups may form spontaneously occasionally, but a FLGS or club are nearly always going to be needed as a catalyst.
A gaming store makes for an easy central meeting place, but I don't think it's required. With Facebook groups and such, there are different ways to finding a gaming group and maintaining a community. In fact since people's names/faces are associated with those profiles it's a bit easier to screen out the nuts prior to inviting them to your home. I think having your personal profile linked to the group also leads people to be more civil and helpful in their community discussions instead of everything being doom and gloom.
In my area the game appears to be alive and well. 30k is on the rise too. Heck, I even saw someone playing BFG at a store yesterday.
I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
"Sorry, old boy, but you know how it is. I mean, I'm hardly going to invite in someone I haven't been properly introduced to, am I? What!"
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
It's best not to invite anyone in. Keeps the Vampires away...
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
I agree with this! Plus... I own firearms...
'Murica.
The only guns I own are wielded by miniature, plastic soldiers.
It's nothing to do with fear. I'm not expecting to be shot in my own home.
It's everything to do with not wanting weirdos knowing where I live, or spending hours stuck with someone who doesn't have the necessary social skills to realise they need to just go home already, or just flat out ending up with someone who I don't like trying to be my best friend because they've been round my house.
An Englishman's home is his castle, and castles are gak if you leave the drawbridge down.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
I agree with this! Plus... I own firearms...
'Murica.
The only guns I own are wielded by miniature, plastic soldiers.
I'm kinda the opposite. I own 6+ firearms, and I play daemons... Well, most daemons don't have guns haha.
It's nothing to do with fear. I'm not expecting to be shot in my own home.
It's everything to do with not wanting weirdos knowing where I live, or spending hours stuck with someone who doesn't have the necessary social skills to realise they need to just go home already, or just flat out ending up with someone who I don't like trying to be my best friend because they've been round my house.
An Englishman's home is his castle, and castles are gak if you leave the drawbridge down.
Yup.
I saw my next door neighbour had some 40k models when I went round to collect a parcel earlier this month. I'm still scouting as to his identity (weirdly, nobody seems to know who he is and has not been seen down our FLGS) before I "come out the closet" so to speak. Don't want the local TFG coming over and living next door.
It's nothing to do with fear. I'm not expecting to be shot in my own home.
It's everything to do with not wanting weirdos knowing where I live, or spending hours stuck with someone who doesn't have the necessary social skills to realise they need to just go home already, or just flat out ending up with someone who I don't like trying to be my best friend because they've been round my house.
An Englishman's home is his castle, and castles are gak if you leave the drawbridge down.
It's everything to do with not wanting weirdos knowing where I live, or spending hours stuck with someone who doesn't have the necessary social skills to realise they need to just go home already, or just flat out ending up with someone who I don't like trying to be my best friend because they've been round my house.
Or end up stuck for hours with someone who apparently has no concept of personal hygiene. Or someone who's a petty thief.
It's nothing to do with fear. I'm not expecting to be shot in my own home.
It's everything to do with not wanting weirdos knowing where I live, or spending hours stuck with someone who doesn't have the necessary social skills to realise they need to just go home already, or just flat out ending up with someone who I don't like trying to be my best friend because they've been round my house.
An Englishman's home is his castle, and castles are gak if you leave the drawbridge down.
Are the British too polite to ask the person to leave once they're in, easier to not invite anyone?
Before things spiral discussing stereotypes of attitude differences in countries I'll just just say this: some people need a store for a community, others do not. You prefer to form a group around a store, I don't see the store as being essential.
Loborocket wrote: Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.
Why won't GW die? Every year the same stupid annual report shows up and the same stupid comments from Kirby come in. We don't like the game now so we do not play it. We liked the game in the past and spend our time complaining on how the game could be made better and how it would be so much better if someone who cared ran it. We will stay involved until that fateful day arrives.
Enjoy it for what it is.
No.
I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
I keep looking at this forum because many people give a damn. These people are representative of the 40k game because it is in decline and are engaged in their hobbies in all media unlike GW. Check it often and find the occasional sad crowd who hate hearing people unhappy with the status quo.
Check back in a couple of months.
I check it often,
Mods should really think about the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
What would you propose? "No whiners allowed?" not sure how to enforce that one.
Here something constructive from a "hater" about 40k:
- Too much random, suggest more decisions than dice rolls (warlord traits and psych abilities).
- Balance: Here is there chance with all these formation lists: balance each formation and do not let any abilities "leak" out of them.
- More unit targeting and not individual "closest" model garbage, slows the game.
Call me entitled but I have played since second edition and 6+ armies in the game so this is a rather invested interest and no going away and griping somewhere else.
I play crafted scenarios with friends that work very well.
But what is my #1 issue with 40k is pickup games are just as bad as it gets. Better chance Israel and the Palestinians reaching a border agreement.
How are we to get a thriving game with new players when just starting a game with a stranger needs a perils of the warp saving throw?
bogalubov wrote: I think being a guest has a certain code of decorum associated with it.
You're right. But asking them to leave still feels very impolite.
Maybe it's just because I've always been a very shy person.
And that's ok. Heck, I still ask my wife to phone restaurants and service people because somehow I'm too nervous to do it outside of work. So I get it, we all have our "thing".
I'm just suggesting alternative ways to maintain a 40k community. One size does not fit all.
And Americans don't have castles, unless you count Disney Princess ones.
Well castle was what you called your dwelling, and I Doubt you live in a real castle. So if castles are dwellings, Americans generally have more land and property, due to our country not being as compacted.
Also, we actually have quite a few "real" castles that are very cool in New England.
Azreal13 wrote: Of course I live in a castle, we all live in castles over here.
Castles, far as the eye can see.
*Rule Britannias internaly*
Britishing intensifies?
I dont know, I have a soft spot for 40k but like the game I watched seemed like nobody was really engaged, it was like playing with toy soldiers (more than just being a game with... toy soldiers). No engagement in the battle, no real maneuvering. I contrasted it with a 12-person Warmachine tournament I went to watch the next day, and it was like night and day. Every Warmachine table had people engaged in the game, involved with what was going on, versus moving guys up a few inches and then simply rolling dice.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
Azreal13 wrote: Of course I live in a castle, we all live in castles over here.
Castles, far as the eye can see.
*Rule Britannias internaly*
Britishing intensifies?
I dont know, I have a soft spot for 40k but like the game I watched seemed like nobody was really engaged, it was like playing with toy soldiers (more than just being a game with... toy soldiers). No engagement in the battle, no real maneuvering. I contrasted it with a 12-person Warmachine tournament I went to watch the next day, and it was like night and day. Every Warmachine table had people engaged in the game, involved with what was going on, versus moving guys up a few inches and then simply rolling dice.
I've never seen a painted Warmachine army...and I live like 30 miles away from where Privateer press is based. There's also no terrain and all the movement is forward...so I don't know, the game just never appealed to me.
How players engage in the game is also very variable from player to player. You're also comparing two people having a laid back game to a tournament. I've never attended a 40k tournament that didn't involve a lot of back and forth between opponents.
But if you like Warmachine and enjoy playing that game, more power to you.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
Azreal13 wrote: Of course I live in a castle, we all live in castles over here.
Castles, far as the eye can see.
*Rule Britannias internaly*
Britishing intensifies?
I dont know, I have a soft spot for 40k but like the game I watched seemed like nobody was really engaged, it was like playing with toy soldiers (more than just being a game with... toy soldiers). No engagement in the battle, no real maneuvering. I contrasted it with a 12-person Warmachine tournament I went to watch the next day, and it was like night and day. Every Warmachine table had people engaged in the game, involved with what was going on, versus moving guys up a few inches and then simply rolling dice.
I've never seen a painted Warmachine army...and I live like 30 miles away from where Privateer press is based. There's also no terrain and all the movement is forward...so I don't know, the game just never appealed to me.
How players engage in the game is also very variable from player to player. You're also comparing two people having a laid back game to a tournament. I've never attended a 40k tournament that didn't involve a lot of back and forth between opponents.
But if you like Warmachine and enjoy playing that game, more power to you.
I'm not a WMH player (at least, not yet) but the key difference between it, X Wing, Infinity, and pretty much every other game out there I've played or have knowledge of is that (and I think this is what MWHistorian is shooting for) there is an awful lot more in game engagement. 40K is pretty much move>shoot>assault. The only decision is where you move and what you shoot or assault. Most other games have at least one other layer of decision making, and frequently there's opportunity costs that have to be weighted up against one another when deciding what to do.
The core gameplay in 40K is very limited, while simultaneously managing to be massively complicated. Throw in the balance issues and a fractured approach to what a game of 40K actually consists of amongst different players on top of that, and most of the fun in playing 40K is extracted from the opponent, rather than the game. Some may argue that's how it should be, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but when there's games which offer a more engaging experience and do nothing to prevent you having a laugh with your oppo at the same time, one has to ask exactly what it is that 40K offers as a game that isn't nowadays better served elsewhere?
I'm not a WMH player (at least, not yet) but the key difference between it, X Wing, Infinity, and pretty much every other game out there I've played or have knowledge of is that (and I think this is what MWHistorian is shooting for) there is an awful lot more in game engagement. 40K is pretty much move>shoot>assault. The only decision is where you move and what you shoot or assault. Most other games have at least one other layer of decision making, and frequently there's opportunity costs that have to be weighted up against one another when deciding what to do.
The core gameplay in 40K is very limited, while simultaneously managing to be massively complicated. Throw in the balance issues and a fractured approach to what a game of 40K actually consists of amongst different players on top of that, and most of the fun in playing 40K is extracted from the opponent, rather than the game. Some may argue that's how it should be, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree, but when there's games which offer a more engaging experience and do nothing to prevent you having a laugh with your oppo at the same time, one has to ask exactly what it is that 40K offers as a game that isn't nowadays better served elsewhere?
But if you like _________ and enjoy playing that game, more power to you.
Azreal13 wrote: I'm sorry, maybe it's Britishness, but there's absolutely no way I'd invite someone I'd only had contact with online into my home without prior real world experience.
Equally, anyone who makes an assumption that someone's online persona (including their name and face!) bears any resemblance to real life is setting themselves up for trouble.
Sure, this is the best it's ever been for being able to reach out and find like minded people, but going to a venue that caters to those interests still probably the most wide ranging and efficient way to do it.
And I thought that Americans were supposed to be the easily scared ones. I've gamed with at least 3 people I had never met previously at my house. I don't have a huge house either, I live in a city and just use 3 modular 2 by 4 foot boards that I set on a table and overlay with a gaming mat.
My thinking has always been, if someone is trying to scam me by feigning interest in Warhammer...congratulations, you've earned it by learning about such a niche interest. Why not just rob people when they're not home?
If the person is a jerk, it's my house, I can ask them to leave. However, it's never come to that. Everyone has been nice and simply interested in the hobby and meeting like minded individuals.
I agree with this! Plus... I own firearms...
'Murica.
USA > China, never forget Pearl Harbor!
Please tell me you're joking.
My Japanese wife is more than happy that people like that really exist.
Azreal13 wrote:
I think you're conflating "group" and "community."
And sometimes they're one and the same thing.
Azreal13 wrote:
There's no way I'm going to open up my home for complete strangers to wander in and out and play games whenever they like, irrespective of how much space I have.
Neither would I. Like I said, one of the strengths of playing at home is that you can be selective of who you invite.
Azreal13 wrote:
My gaming friends originate from the existence of a local FLGS once upon a time, I didn't just happen to be friends with people who also happened to be gamers, I met gamers who ultimately became my friends. Had there been no nexus for that to happen, I don't honestly see how we'd even have met, let alone established any sort of social gaming group.
Bear in mind, we are talking about the 'requirement' of a store as a nexus,
And Good for you. As for me I've met mine through work (three active, and two former players), through an flgs, via the interwebs (long story there but I have two great friends from it, and really, interwebs was the easiest way to communicate for a while), through gaming societies and network effects, conventions and so on. Like I said, I know of gaming groups in community centres, in an raf veterans club, a library and so on. I moved country. I brought my hobby with me, first thing I did was research where I could go with it. And network from there. Heck, I've even met some fellow gamers via chatting to folks in a pub (hey, I'm Irish...). More than once to my jest of 'yeah I'm a geek. I play warhammer' has the answer been, with a deadpan face and straight delivery 'mate, I play space wolves'. Heck, my missus plays rugby, and the bf of one of the girls she played with, over the course of a day out with them (first time I'd met the guy), figured that with me being the creative type, he knew of a great hobby that he played that he thought id really enjoy, called warhammer.
Shrug.
Azreal13 wrote:
Should real life intervene, where is your tight group of 4-6 people going to get new members?
What happens when a store closes?
We get new members From us expanding the group on an individual basis. We started with two. I was the third, and got roped in via giving those two a demo of infinity. They disappeared for a while, built up s whole room of infinity terrain, invited me over for a game night, and we've been friends since. I've introduced the group to two of my wargamer buddies (one of whom I worked with), and one of the others has brought in one of his mates who comes along occasionally. Two of the guys have houses at which we can play, so we are not required to turn up (as you say, real life intervenes) and we all generally keep and eye out for folks that we think would be a good fit, and might enjoy our Friday night gaming,
And I doubt we are unique in our dynamics.
Azreal13 wrote:
Groups may form spontaneously occasionally, but a FLGS or club are nearly always going to be needed as a catalyst.
'Or' being key. I was responding specifically to a point that an flgs was 'needed'. Bear that in mind as. Don't get me wrong - clubs help. Clubs are great. But so is gaming at home. Like I said, it's not a case of either or, or one being better(and I've never stated this FYI) Back in the day, I knew of warmachine groups in Ireland that had quite decent numbers of players and got together frequently, all without the help of a central hub, or an flgs that carried stock.
Kirasu wrote:
Okay but how do those strangers meet your group? Do you post on craigslist or something that they can just randomly show up at your house for some 40k?
See above. I've met my peers through a whole riot of different ways. Then I get numbers, hang out, have a few beers, stay in touch, and all while building up a friendship, work in getting together for gaming when it's possible (and FYI, mainly warmachine or infinity). I don't bring 'random gamers' home. I'm wary of people thst identify as 'gamers' first and foremost. I want friends that I can connect with beyond just toy soldiers, The whole point of playing at home is that it allows you to be selective (because too often. I know of a tfg at a club who ruins it for everyone else. Won't happen at my place.)
Kirasu wrote:
A private group is not a community.
By definition though, Yes it is. It's a group of people sharing a common interest. It might be part of the greater community as a whole, but it is still it's on distinct entity, just like how those that play at an flgs can often be a similar self-contained group (I mean, I know several groups that play solely at particular flgs's due to location, travel etc).
Kirasu wrote:
An easily accessible central meeting place is how those are formed.
It helps. It really does and I won't argue with it. I'll agree with it. Like I said. I've seen clubs based In churches, community centres, libraries, back rooms of pubs, Bedrooms, basements and garages etc.
My response was specifically to your claims that game stores were 'required to build communities' and that 'you can't build the hobby off of some dude having a tiny little gaming board in his room'. Both statements are untrue. And FYI, it wasn't a 'tiny board' - it was a 4 by 4, which is standard warmachine sized board.
You can't build the hobby off of some dude having a tiny little gaming board in his room.. as opposed to a game store having *twenty* + a place for people to congregate. I do admit, I assume you're talking about the UK due to the use of the word "flat".. in the US we have a massive amount of space and are spread apart.. Game stores are required to build communities.
Kirasu wrote:
.Also a community doesn't require a "tight group of friends" because when a key person leaves the group often falls apart where as a community of non-related people moves on.
You're missing the point by a mile. You are correct though - it doesn't 'require' a tight group of friends, but it certainly helps enormously. A cohesive group will have staying power that a bunch of transients won't. You go out of your way for your friends - you will go that extra mile for them (and don't say you won't, that's the whole damned point of friends - you support each other). A big part of my wonders how, if you don't want to make good friends through your hobbies and interests, then what the hell is the point of it all in the first place. 'Abstract chess' only goes so far.
Key person leaves and the group fails - well, that can happen. But to be fair to these groups, everyone should be proactive, show a bit of cop on and maturity in their group so that there is no 'key piece' either. In our group for example, we all contribute we all have stuff for different games, and we all bring different ideas to the table. If any of us can't make it, the rest shrug and move on.
As you say, non related people thst just 'move on' - well, that transience doesn't really appeal to a lot of people. Your just a bunch of strangers in a room. Fine, you'll move on, because there was nothing holding you together. And that in itself is its own problem. What holds people together oftentimes is what makes a community, and makes it worth a goddamn. It's what makes gaming truly shine. You are missing out by not having it in the first place. So fine, you've lost nothing when everyone moves on. Good for you. Equally, one can argue that you've gained absolutely nothing in equal measure. Take it from a guy who has moved through a bunch of different communities, and had to retrench in a new country, and build it all up again. If it was just 'randoms ' gaming would just be a thing I do. There would be nothing more to it, and no greater joy to be had. But with the building of, and taking part in a community, I have great friends, and I now have roots in a community In A new country where once upon a time I know no one, and had no other connections. Think about the value there for a minute. Those connections we make and build are what make us human. And what make us great. They give us something worth building, worth maintaining and worth growing and protecting. You get out what you put in, at the end of the day.
Try it some day with your community. I can only recommend it.
So China attacked Pearl Harbour?! Good e*DUH*keishun!
Well, back to the topic:
Based on my personal perspective 40k was already dead when the 7th edition was released, GW had the nerve to basically release the same Rulebook after only two years!
Regarding my FLGS there is no one playing any games by GW whilst there are still 40k players in the other game stores I play in. Also the town's GW store is still frequented.
Azreal13 wrote: That doesn't really address my point, does it?
Reiterating its ok to like other games is dead end statement.
My reasons for not liking Warmachine were enumerated in my post so I didn't feel the need to repeat. I also addressed the point about Warmachine being engaging while 40k is two sad guys throwing dice at each other.
So the only thing left to say is that if you enjoy other games, please go on enjoying them.
And Americans don't have castles, unless you count Disney Princess ones.
Well castle was what you called your dwelling, and I Doubt you live in a real castle. So if castles are dwellings, Americans generally have more land and property, due to our country not being as compacted.
Also, we actually have quite a few "real" castles that are very cool in New England.
Call those flimsy wood things castles? Over here each home is a stalwart fortress of brick and stone!
Loborocket wrote: Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.
Enjoy it for what it is.
I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
Instead of a troll post, why don't you post about how much you enjoy 40K and why ?
Are the British too polite to ask the person to leave once they're in, easier to not invite anyone?
Something like that, yes. I imagine it feels especially impolite if you were the one who invited them in the first place.
I think being a guest has a certain code of decorum associated with it.
Mate, seriously just poke around r/britishproblems to see how much of a struggle it is for us.
"I don't want my steak and chips served on a wooden cutting board"
"Burger king charge 20p for barbecue sauce but ketchup is free. Didn't want to break a note, so said no, and when my friend bought one i looked really tight"
"I'm scared of saying i don't like the Beatles in fear i will be done in"
"I get mocked when i sincerely use the word marvelous"
Loborocket wrote: Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.
Enjoy it for what it is.
I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
Instead of a troll post, why don't you post about how much you enjoy 40K and why ?
Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW. The constant droning in threads like this bother me. I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.) I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.
So instead of posting what I like here, I will just go play the game with real people and have real discussions and leave those who love misery in their company here. I had been watching this thread over the past few weeks (not reading except a few post here and there) and of course it was like every other thread like this same old stuff. Just posted out of frustration with the negativity. Probably should has just passed.
Mainly 'White Knights' get called out for being positive about GW/40K as they don't give any reasons for being positive other than it's GW/40K.
Trolling the thread with words like 'tired' 'droning' 'wallow' 'misery' etc doesn't help your cause.
Lot's of well thought out posts in this thread about why people don't like 40K at the moment. Most people love the background and the minis and are hovering around waiting to dive back in when GW sorts the rules out.
Loborocket wrote: Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.
Enjoy it for what it is.
I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.
Check back in a couple of months.
Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.
Instead of a troll post, why don't you post about how much you enjoy 40K and why ?
Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW. The constant droning in threads like this bother me. I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.) I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.
As you get older, you'll find griping is the spice of life, and bickering keeps you sharp People argue and wallow in misery all the time, just check out any political page or discussion on a hot button scientific issue (vaccines, GMOs, etc).
But in all seriousness, many of us do love the hobby. For me, I'm not a hobby guy, I love this game for the social aspects (I was very shy and when I moved from home, 40k introduced me to many friends) and, back in the day, for the gameplay. Moving models around and making house rules, storys, and little mini-adventures was something you couldn't do in the 90's on a computer without an extensive knowledge of programming. The 40k universe has some of the best fluff I've ever seen, and I still run RPGs set in it's storyline. Or I borrow heavily from it.
I just find that, lately, the gameplay has fallen apart and the social aspect isn't really alive since I can't play pick up games. So I complain, because I own a nice car worth of 40k models
So instead of posting what I like here, I will just go play the game with real people and have real discussions and leave those who love misery in their company here. I had been watching this thread over the past few weeks (not reading except a few post here and there) and of course it was like every other thread like this same old stuff. Just posted out of frustration with the negativity. Probably should has just passed.
Not everyone enjoys a debate, and there is no shame in it. If you don't like reading people being negative about something you love, by all means ignore this and other threads. I'd ignore general discussion all together.
Personally I love debating with others, so I'm on here whenever I'm running an experiment or a test.
The painting section is pretty upbeat, and you won't find many people complaining there. The tactics forum is up and down (the weaker armies are down, the stronger armies are more upbeat).
Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW.
I see you've cunningly beaten those people by presenting no arguments whatsoever.
Loborocket wrote: The constant droning in threads like this bother me.
Likewise. Though I expect we'd disagree about which posts qualify.
Loborocket wrote: I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.)
What about those who still like the 40k fluff and/or models, and just want the rules to be better? What about those who want to like 40k but feel GW is forcing them away with incessant price-hikes and terrible rules? Should they not also be allowed to express their opinions, without immediately being jumped on for not loving every aspect of GW?
Loborocket wrote: I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.
Well, I'm glad you've arrived to cheer us all up, by basically being even more miserable and effectively suggesting that anyone who expresses dissatisfaction with GW/40k should be banned.
Can I take this opportunity to suggest that you don't actually want a forum - because a forum is a place to discuss things - including the bad points. If you just ban everyone who disagrees with your opinion, then it's not a forum. I think what you really want is an echo chamber - somewhere where you can hear only the voices that agree with you about everything.
Loborocket wrote: Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW.
Is it just me or have you not said anything at all about the positive end of GW and it's games?
You have not even made a token attempt to get the white knight label yet...
The constant droning in threads like this bother me. I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.)
The label on this thread was pretty clear, other forums were available.
I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.
Part of life is discussions of things that are not always happy and trying to figure out what to do.
Moving on is an option.
Finding ways to leverage the fun elements and minimize the bad is another.
So instead of posting what I like here, I will just go play the game with real people and have real discussions and leave those who love misery in their company here.
Well, not staying on topic does lead one to think moving on may be good.
I had been watching this thread over the past few weeks (not reading except a few post here and there) and of course it was like every other thread like this same old stuff. Just posted out of frustration with the negativity. Probably should has just passed.
Oddly, I find little on a forum frustrating.
GW practices a little more so when "invested" in a game.
Frustrated in perceiving the game as "dying" and having fewer "real people" available to play this game with.
Being bothered by "negativity" or pessimism does not justify words like "droning" and "misery", if it was truly miserable people would just give it a pass.
Now ON TOPIC "40k dying?" the game is less than what it was a few years ago, as a universe for books, models and video games: I think the jury is still out, there is a lot of activity there.
I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.
War Kitten wrote: I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.
I always find it odd that GW hasn't exhausted the supply of people in the world who don't think 40k is overcosted as feth. The last time I mentioned the cost of a model, other 40k players looked at me funny.
War Kitten wrote: I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.
I always find it odd that GW hasn't exhausted the supply of people in the world who don't think 40k is overcosted as feth. The last time I mentioned the cost of a model, other 40k players looked at me funny.
Oh no, I firmly believe that it's overcosted as feth. I was just saying that I don't believe it's dying.
War Kitten wrote: I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.
I always find it odd that GW hasn't exhausted the supply of people in the world who don't think 40k is overcosted as feth. The last time I mentioned the cost of a model, other 40k players looked at me funny.
I have a friend in an online game who works in the printing industry in Australia. She got her hands on a WH40k hardcover Codex recently, and was surprised at its quality compared to its cost. She said that if, at her place of work, they printed a similar book, it would cost 500 dollars just for the one book. Then she explained why GW codices were so cheap: mass-production.
Also, yeah, the models may only cost pennies worth of plastic, but there's gotta be some major costs involved elsewhere in GW's company that marking it up so high is necessary to cover. If there wasn't, then they really shouldn't be making only 10% profit.
That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.
Pouncey wrote: I have a friend in an online game who works in the printing industry in Australia. She got her hands on a WH40k hardcover Codex recently, and was surprised at its quality compared to its cost. She said that if, at her place of work, they printed a similar book, it would cost 500 dollars just for the one book. Then she explained why GW codices were so cheap: mass-production.
That's exactly how it works. Printing one copy of something at high quality is always going to be expensive. But when you compare GW's mass-produced books to other mass-produced books then the quality to cost ratio isn't very impressive.
I'm pretty sure the most I've ever paid for a gaming book of equal quality to a GW one (in hardback) was like $70. That was for a core book, GW charges $85-90 for a codex.
Vaktathi wrote: That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.
:: shrug ::
I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.
Vaktathi wrote: That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.
:: shrug ::
I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.
It doesn't change the fact that it's too expensive for the consumer. If their costs are that high then something is wrong with their business model.
Pouncey wrote: I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.
This is true, but it's a sign of a spectacularly badly run business. They shouldn't be charging more than the competition (especially in total-cost-to-play numbers) and barely making a profit.
Vaktathi wrote: That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.
:: shrug ::
I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.
Their stores are the cost that eats most of their revenue, the thing is if they are not profitable they should be closed, not opening more and more.
Vaktathi wrote: That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.
:: shrug ::
I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.
It doesn't change the fact that it's too expensive for the consumer. If their costs are that high then something is wrong with their business model.
Given that prices are ultimately determined by how much people are willing to pay for something, and they still have enough customers willing to pay their current prices to make their business profitable, their prices are fine. Especially for a luxury product like a tabletop wargame.
That said, yes, I too would like WH40k minis and books to be cheaper.
Given that prices are ultimately determined by how much people are willing to pay for something, and they still have enough customers willing to pay their current prices to make their business profitable, their prices are fine. Especially for a luxury product like a tabletop wargame.
That said, yes, I too would like WH40k minis and books to be cheaper.
Eeeeeexcept for the few reports in a row now of falling sales...
You can only argue the market is accepting the price of something if sales are level or going up.
Vaktathi wrote: That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.
:: shrug ::
I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.
It doesn't change the fact that it's too expensive for the consumer. If their costs are that high then something is wrong with their business model.
Given that prices are ultimately determined by how much people are willing to pay for something, and they still have enough customers willing to pay their current prices to make their business profitable, their prices are fine. Especially for a luxury product like a tabletop wargame.
That said, yes, I too would like WH40k minis and books to be cheaper.
They're profitable, but revenue has been declining (particularly when adjusted for inflation) at a steady, and alarming rate for over a decade now. They aren't in the red, but if things don't change, in a couple more years they're going to be. Fundamentally, they're selling less stuff to fewer people now than they were 5 years ago or 10 years ago.
I know that I personally have stopped purchasing. Where in say, 2007, I probably dumped a couple hundred bucks a month on GW stuff, I've dropped nothing on GW in almost a year (and what I did purchase this year was extremely discounted from the FLGS, and I had store credit to cover most of it, I think I spent a grand total of $27).
A large part foGW's costs go in running their retail chain. That's why I argue they should carry a wider range of games, which I believe would appeal to more customers and increase the selling power of the setup.
Vaktathi wrote: That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.
:: shrug ::
I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.
Their stores are the cost that eats most of their revenue, the thing is if they are not profitable they should be closed, not opening more and more.
But they won't because they're still living in the early 90s where they feel the GW store is the "hub" of Warhammer. Which is even more ironic since they've cut them to the bone and don't give them tools to be anything other than a storefront. I had a GW store open in my area finally (the only one in the area, the other I think may be like 3 hours away) so I went there one day to see it. Smallish store but had a lot of stock, reminded me of a cell phone store in its layout (that's the idea I guess, since GW thinks it's Apple). One small display table with DV on one side and AOS on the other, one regular sized 40k table and one smaller (4x4 maybe) table with Fantasy themed stuff for AOS I presume. Single employee who seemed nice enough, not too pushy and was enthusiastic. That's not a hub, that's a place you swing by to pick something up on the way home from work. They were talking about starting up a league, and having a calendar for people to schedule games because there's only the one table to play on. Yeah, that will get people into the store...
It shows how stupid they are, the retail stores eat up most of their revenue but they make the retail stores basically worthless to anyone who would really spend money. But then again their business model is present stuff to get clueless parents to buy Little Timmy a box of space marines here and there, and when he leaves after a year who cares you got money. They operate a multi-national business like a fly by night scam.
jonolikespie wrote: That's been a rule for a long time now, not even aftermarket guns or shoulderpads.
I doubt you can even get away with resin bases if your local employee wants to stick to the rules.
Well they did have a 25% rule or something like it at one time where the model could only be that % of non-GW because so many people had 3rd party bases.
This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.
vipoid wrote: Remember when GW's website actually had articles and such? Before they spent £4.5 million to turn it into a dull webstore with an horrible layout.
Also, with regard to GW stores, I seem to recall hearing that people aren't allowed to play games using non-GW models. Anyone know if this is true?
GW used to have a rule that if something was over 50% GW, you could do what you want. These days, if someone mentions that they used non-GW greenstuff to fill a hole in a model, they get asked to leave.
agnosto wrote: This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.
It seems terrible to me because people don't generally want to play in a place that feels oppressive. In the same way that most people looking for a relaxing holiday wouldn't choose North Korea as a destination.
Moreover, it comes across as bitter and resentful on GW's part. "How dare anyone not buy absolutely every model in their army from us and us alone!"
Even if you run with the idea that they're a store first, it's still ludicrous. It would be like a clothes store throwing out every customer who wasn't wearing only clothes bought from that store (or chain of stores).
I'm lucky in that my nearest GW I can sit with pots of non GW paint and basing materials and work on a GW model.
I think if I tried that at my next nearest store I wouldn't be asked to leave, but I'd be told I can't have them in the store, then get and earful about how bad they are in comparison to GW paints because that manager has used every paint on the market and knows GW is the best. He might also throw in some lines about PP using toxic chemicals or Vellejo using child labour.
Actually as I type this I'm realizing the part about the toxic paints isn't hyperbole, I could see that manager using that line.... I've also heard from him that he's played all 3 editons or Warmachine and hated the game because people he played at tourneys would just use wooden featureless pegs of the right diameter and height instead of models... he also didn't seem to know the base mechanics of Warmachine.
agnosto wrote: This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.
It seems terrible to me because people don't generally want to play in a place that feels oppressive. In the same way that most people looking for a relaxing holiday wouldn't choose North Korea as a destination.
Moreover, it comes across as bitter and resentful on GW's part. "How dare anyone not buy absolutely every model in their army from us and us alone!"
Even if you run with the idea that they're a store first, it's still ludicrous. It would be like a clothes store throwing out every customer who wasn't wearing only clothes bought from that store (or chain of stores).
I used to work in parts at a car dealership, if someone came in with another brand of car we'd fix it.
If someone wanted the cheaper non genuine parts we'd call the after market guys up the road and have the parts delivered.
We wanted your business even if your car wasn't from us and used parts we didn't sell because the idea of turning away a customer wanting to come to us and spend money on our product was ing ludicrous.
agnosto wrote: This isn't terrible because it's a retail shop first and a game store 3rd or 4th.
It seems terrible to me because people don't generally want to play in a place that feels oppressive. In the same way that most people looking for a relaxing holiday wouldn't choose North Korea as a destination.
Moreover, it comes across as bitter and resentful on GW's part. "How dare anyone not buy absolutely every model in their army from us and us alone!"
Even if you run with the idea that they're a store first, it's still ludicrous. It would be like a clothes store throwing out every customer who wasn't wearing only clothes bought from that store (or chain of stores).
I've stepped foot into a GW store exactly one time in my life and it was only out of curiosity. My state saw its first GW open about 3 years ago and they've already changed managers. GW managers are held to absurd sales targets or they lose their jobs (so I hear anyway) so if you walk into a GW store and you're not buying GW and the store isn't positioned well in the community or whatever; if you're no buying GW, you're likely costing that manager their job eve if it weren't a corporate policy. I get that which is why I'll never go to a GW store because I can't keep to that rule.
This really shows how silly GW-branded stores are in the first place.
Pretty obvious that a popular game like this is not dying. Having to make sure for competitors, who were not there before in the amounts they are today, sure. Only normal.
Also, with regard to GW stores, I seem to recall hearing that people aren't allowed to play games using non-GW models. Anyone know if this is true?
I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them. I don't know where the line is at that store for how much non-GW you could have, but I suspect its reasonable-ish. Dude seemed okay. He was super hesitant about me bringing my BFG (all official GW models) to play and show off, so I never really went back. Shame, probably the only dedicated wargaming store. Rest are all card shops or comic stores.
jonolikespie wrote: That's been a rule for a long time now, not even aftermarket guns or shoulderpads.
I doubt you can even get away with resin bases if your local employee wants to stick to the rules.
I have bunch of dudes with west wind metal heads instead of the normal cadian ones, not one of the four GW managers at my local GW have complained, they just think guardsmen with brody helmets are awesome.
(I know four is quite a turnover, but there was one guy who had run the store for yonks, then he left and the new guys have only stayed a few months each.)
vipoid wrote: Remember when GW's website actually had articles and such? Before they spent £4.5 million to turn it into a dull webstore with an horrible layout.
I would not have gotten into 40k if the website of today was in place when I got started. I browsed through their website, all the fluff and info, for probably two years before I ever hopped in to actually buy anything and play. All the cool fluff, the armies broken down by Legion/Chapter/Regiment/etc, hundreds of pages of background material, looking at all the individual bitz and coming up with conversion ideas, etc.
The gakky shopping cart their site has turned into does nothing to draw people in. It's really sad
Also, with regard to GW stores, I seem to recall hearing that people aren't allowed to play games using non-GW models. Anyone know if this is true?
Blacksails wrote: I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them.
You say that, but surely anyone interested in your army would still be playing 40k - i.e. they'd still be buying the core rules, the codices, possibly glue/paint etc. Also, they might, for example, get their infantry elsewhere, but still use 40k vehicles.
Just seems like people buying some stuff from GW would still be preferable to people buying nothing from GW.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: (I know four is quite a turnover, but there was one guy who had run the store for yonks, then he left and the new guys have only stayed a few months each.)
Blacksails wrote: I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them.
You say that, but surely anyone interested in your army would still be playing 40k - i.e. they'd still be buying the core rules, the codices, possibly glue/paint etc. Also, they might, for example, get their infantry elsewhere, but still use 40k vehicles.
Just seems like people buying some stuff from GW would still be preferable to people buying nothing from GW.
Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?
To GW, if you aren't buying everything from them, you might as well be buying nothing. I honestly while typing that expected some cartoon-type of montage with sad music talking about how you're costing people their livelihood and probably kick puppies for not choosing to buy everything from your local GW shop. I could, in fact, see the same done for any FLGS in general.
WayneTheGame wrote: Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?.
The old manager actually described what happened there to us young 'uns a while back. He said that they couldn't sell them at a discount after having made people originally buy them at full price and get nothing extra for it.
Blacksails wrote: I can't play at my local GW store because most of my infantry is 3rd party not-Mordians. I can't really fault them, seeing as anyone who liked my army would inevitably end up not buying from the store/GW, which is bad business for them.
You say that, but surely anyone interested in your army would still be playing 40k - i.e. they'd still be buying the core rules, the codices, possibly glue/paint etc. Also, they might, for example, get their infantry elsewhere, but still use 40k vehicles.
Just seems like people buying some stuff from GW would still be preferable to people buying nothing from GW.
A fair point, and basically how my first FLGS operated. I'd buy stuff online that I couldn't get from him, but made sure I'd buy anything I wanted that he carried from him. I didn't loudly advertise any 3rd party parts or accessories he didn't carry, but when asked, it was totally kosher to explain what it is and where I got it. Plus, it helped the store figure out what new products they should consider carrying if there was enough talk going around.
I guess in making your point, I'm just about done with GW. All the new IG stuff I've seen (formations and such) are underwhelming in every way possible, and I don't have much of a group here. If they'd let me game at the store, maybe I'd be more into it, but compared to the interest X-Wing is getting here even among my non wargaming friends it makes it a hard sell to keep shelling out premium pricing for a mediocre product - game wise.
WayneTheGame wrote: Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?.
The old manager actually described what happened there to us young 'uns a while back. He said that they couldn't sell them at a discount after having made people originally buy them at full price and get nothing extra for it.
That doesn't make any sense- all other stores put things on sale all the time and tackle this problem just fine.
The real problem is GW subscribes to the Louis Vuitton mindset for business, where it's better to destroy product than sell at sale, less it serve to devalue the brand. They've said in official statements that they won't offer sales in the future, but have considered bundles that provide a better cost overall.
Personally, I think GW's opinion of itself is beyond inflated if they spend their time trying to duplicate the business models of Louis Vuitton and Ferrari.
WayneTheGame wrote: Did you forget we are talking about GW? Didn't they destroy unsold copies of Dreadfleet rather than sell it at a discount to recoup some of the production costs?.
The old manager actually described what happened there to us young 'uns a while back. He said that they couldn't sell them at a discount after having made people originally buy them at full price and get nothing extra for it.
There's a reason I never go to GW stores. This is one of them. They don't want to challenge me over using 3rd party grav guns or melee weapons when they don't sell the packs for them.
And I'm not having a go at you, just driving the bus through the massive hole in what the Redshirt told you. That's the trouble when you try and spin something that's utterly ridiculous, you can only justify it with something tenuous which immediately collapses under any sort of scrutiny.
CREEEEEEEEED wrote: Hey, I'm not trying to say GW make sensible or rational decisions, I'm just repeating what I've heard given the subject came up.
No worries, I wasn't going after you CREEEEEEEEED (is that the right number of E's?), I just get tired of this bsGW puts out, whether it be from the company directly or its managers. They're always so ready to come up with "reasons" why they can't offer games at a better price.
I'm waiting for them to pull the AT&T response* and say "oh, we were about to come out with all sorts of deals and sales, but then the aftermarket sales made it so we couldn't do it. Sorry guys, but its the customers' faults"
*(this pertaining to AT&T citing FCC changes as to why they have to charge their customers so much)
The evolution of the GW store has been interesting.
Around 2nd-3rd edition I would see typically 3 red shirts and feel stalked with more "Can I help you(s)?" than I could count.
My first impression was like talking to a Jehovah's Witness when they come to the door: they are here to save you from your boring gaming life.
They were also more than happy to demonstrate their vast knowledge of the hobby, asked for or not.
Around 4th-5th they acted more like the casual guys willing to show you as much as you want on the hobby. They seemed confident in the product and were more than happy to demonstrate any element of the hobby. This seemed like the nice middle ground of sales, it was a comfortable shopping experience, dare I say a positive hobby experience.
Around 6th-7th... like scared rabbits. I walk into a largely empty store and this one guy is there. You immediately get asked what you are looking for. If you say you are "browsing" they assume you are deciding on a NEW army or game purchase and slide into the hard sell. If I say I already play and have armies, you get asked what army you play and they immediately recommend the latest hotness for that army. Usually I have to interrupt mid-spiel and say "I am browsing" and face uncomfortable silence if my time is longer than 10 minutes and the guy is impatiently wondering if I will buy anything. It has that boutique feel... like they are trying to figure out if you are that "right" kind of customer and if not, show you the door.
If the stores are to succeed, they really need two people to function just to acknowledge life happens, people get sick and need vacation.
Two people is also enough to feel... welcoming rather than this one lone guy.
GW is selling models, sure we get that, but these people can sell them by showing how assembly and paint can be fun, that will help with on-going sales.
How can the controlled shopping experience in a GW store be any better than shopping on-line unless you can offer something more?
It is all down to: here are awesome models, you buy them here, these are premium pieces and I am sure little Jimmy 4 year old will do them justice... now run along.
Azreal13 wrote: You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!
"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"
Azreal13 wrote: You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!
"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"
Gah!!!
With the rules as they are now it would be a "valid" recommendation.... since little is not!
Damn you people and your logic.
Azreal13 wrote: You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!
"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"
Gah!!!
With the rules as they are now it would be a "valid" recommendation.... since little is not!
Damn you people and your logic.
I'm waiting for the next CSM release, where they'll try to explain that a £50 single-model chaos unit is an excellent addition to an ultrasmurf collection.
Azreal13 wrote: You forgot the bit about if there is no new hotness for your stated army, they recommend something, anything, regardless of suitability!
"Oh so you play Salamanders? Here, have a look at this new farsight enclave bundle! It'll totally be the best ally you could bring!"
"Oh, you play Sisters?" *Awkward silence* "Sorry, we only sell Games Workshop miniatures here. Would you be interested in some Space Marines?"
it's the naysayers that make these threads like they are 
ing ludicrous.
