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So China attacked Pearl Harbour?! Good e*DUH*keishun!

Well, back to the topic:
Based on my personal perspective 40k was already dead when the 7th edition was released, GW had the nerve to basically release the same Rulebook after only two years!

Regarding my FLGS there is no one playing any games by GW whilst there are still 40k players in the other game stores I play in. Also the town's GW store is still frequented.

 Azreal13 wrote:
That doesn't really address my point, does it?

Reiterating its ok to like other games is dead end statement.

My reasons for not liking Warmachine were enumerated in my post so I didn't feel the need to repeat. I also addressed the point about Warmachine being engaging while 40k is two sad guys throwing dice at each other.

So the only thing left to say is that if you enjoy other games, please go on enjoying them.

 Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Entertaining guests is srsbsns.

http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Rat_Cook

And Americans don't have castles, unless you count Disney Princess ones.

Well castle was what you called your dwelling, and I Doubt you live in a real castle. So if castles are dwellings, Americans generally have more land and property, due to our country not being as compacted.

Also, we actually have quite a few "real" castles that are very cool in New England.

Call those flimsy wood things castles? Over here each home is a stalwart fortress of brick and stone!

 Tristan228 wrote:
So China attacked Pearl Harbour?! Good e*DUH*keishun!

 Polonius wrote:

 Tristan228 wrote:
So China attacked Pearl Harbour?! Good e*DUH*keishun!

Hilarious!

Loborocket wrote:
Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.

Enjoy it for what it is.

I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.

Check back in a couple of months.

Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.

Instead of a troll post, why don't you post about how much you enjoy 40K and why ?

 Grimtuff wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

bogalubov wrote:

Are the British too polite to ask the person to leave once they're in, easier to not invite anyone?

Something like that, yes. I imagine it feels especially impolite if you were the one who invited them in the first place.

I think being a guest has a certain code of decorum associated with it.

Mate, seriously just poke around r/britishproblems to see how much of a struggle it is for us.

"I don't want my steak and chips served on a wooden cutting board"
"Burger king charge 20p for barbecue sauce but ketchup is free. Didn't want to break a note, so said no, and when my friend bought one i looked really tight"
"I'm scared of saying i don't like the Beatles in fear i will be done in"
"I get mocked when i sincerely use the word marvelous"

Smashing!

Bartali wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.

Enjoy it for what it is.

I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.

Check back in a couple of months.

Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.

Instead of a troll post, why don't you post about how much you enjoy 40K and why ?

Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW. The constant droning in threads like this bother me. I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.) I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.

So instead of posting what I like here, I will just go play the game with real people and have real discussions and leave those who love misery in their company here. I had been watching this thread over the past few weeks (not reading except a few post here and there) and of course it was like every other thread like this same old stuff. Just posted out of frustration with the negativity. Probably should has just passed.

Mainly 'White Knights' get called out for being positive about GW/40K as they don't give any reasons for being positive other than it's GW/40K.
Trolling the thread with words like 'tired' 'droning' 'wallow' 'misery' etc doesn't help your cause.

Lot's of well thought out posts in this thread about why people don't like 40K at the moment. Most people love the background and the minis and are hovering around waiting to dive back in when GW sorts the rules out.

Loborocket wrote:

Bartali wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Almost 18 pages!!! Why won't this thread die? Every couple of months the same stupid thread shows up and the same stupid response come in. If you like the game play it. if you don't like the game why waste your time complaining about why you don't like it and how dumb GW is and how much better it would be if someone else did it. Just move along and wait for it to happen, or not happen.

Enjoy it for what it is.

I stop looking at this forum for awhile because it is just so damned negative. Checked in again and it is the same negative stuff being spouted by the same negative people for the most part. I don't think the people frequenting this forum or at least posting to it represent the 40 k game as a whole, but a generally negative sad crowd who enjoy wallowing around in their own misery.

Check back in a couple of months.

Mods should really think aqbout the kind of place they run here, but I have said that before too and it falls on deaf ears.

Instead of a troll post, why don't you post about how much you enjoy 40K and why ?

Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW. The constant droning in threads like this bother me. I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.) I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.

As you get older, you'll find griping is the spice of life, and bickering keeps you sharp People argue and wallow in misery all the time, just check out any political page or discussion on a hot button scientific issue (vaccines, GMOs, etc).
But in all seriousness, many of us do love the hobby. For me, I'm not a hobby guy, I love this game for the social aspects (I was very shy and when I moved from home, 40k introduced me to many friends) and, back in the day, for the gameplay. Moving models around and making house rules, storys, and little mini-adventures was something you couldn't do in the 90's on a computer without an extensive knowledge of programming. The 40k universe has some of the best fluff I've ever seen, and I still run RPGs set in it's storyline. Or I borrow heavily from it.

I just find that, lately, the gameplay has fallen apart and the social aspect isn't really alive since I can't play pick up games. So I complain, because I own a nice car worth of 40k models

Loborocket wrote:

So instead of posting what I like here, I will just go play the game with real people and have real discussions and leave those who love misery in their company here. I had been watching this thread over the past few weeks (not reading except a few post here and there) and of course it was like every other thread like this same old stuff. Just posted out of frustration with the negativity. Probably should has just passed.

Not everyone enjoys a debate, and there is no shame in it. If you don't like reading people being negative about something you love, by all means ignore this and other threads. I'd ignore general discussion all together.
Personally I love debating with others, so I'm on here whenever I'm running an experiment or a test.
The painting section is pretty upbeat, and you won't find many people complaining there. The tactics forum is up and down (the weaker armies are down, the stronger armies are more upbeat).

Loborocket wrote:

Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW.

I see you've cunningly beaten those people by presenting no arguments whatsoever.

Loborocket wrote:
The constant droning in threads like this bother me.

Likewise. Though I expect we'd disagree about which posts qualify.

Loborocket wrote:
I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.)

What about those who still like the 40k fluff and/or models, and just want the rules to be better? What about those who want to like 40k but feel GW is forcing them away with incessant price-hikes and terrible rules? Should they not also be allowed to express their opinions, without immediately being jumped on for not loving every aspect of GW?

Loborocket wrote:
I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.

Well, I'm glad you've arrived to cheer us all up, by basically being even more miserable and effectively suggesting that anyone who expresses dissatisfaction with GW/40k should be banned.

Can I take this opportunity to suggest that you don't actually want a forum - because a forum is a place to discuss things - including the bad points. If you just ban everyone who disagrees with your opinion, then it's not a forum. I think what you really want is an echo chamber - somewhere where you can hear only the voices that agree with you about everything.

Loborocket wrote:
So instead of posting what I like here

Instead of posting here, you'll post here. Ingenious.

Loborocket wrote:
and have real discussions

Loborocket wrote:
Oh that would result in the same tired old arguments about how I am wrong and how GW is terrible and I am just another white knight taking up the mantle for GW.

Is it just me or have you not said anything at all about the positive end of GW and it's games?
You have not even made a token attempt to get the white knight label yet...

The constant droning in threads like this bother me. I want to come to a forum where people talk about a hobby/common interest they love (or at least like.)

The label on this thread was pretty clear, other forums were available.

I assume the people who pay for the site would want the same thing, but perhaps I am wrong and they want a place to wallow in misery? Just seems counter productive in life.

Part of life is discussions of things that are not always happy and trying to figure out what to do.
Moving on is an option.
Finding ways to leverage the fun elements and minimize the bad is another.

So instead of posting what I like here, I will just go play the game with real people and have real discussions and leave those who love misery in their company here.

Well, not staying on topic does lead one to think moving on may be good.

I had been watching this thread over the past few weeks (not reading except a few post here and there) and of course it was like every other thread like this same old stuff. Just posted out of frustration with the negativity. Probably should has just passed.

Oddly, I find little on a forum frustrating.
GW practices a little more so when "invested" in a game.
Frustrated in perceiving the game as "dying" and having fewer "real people" available to play this game with.
Being bothered by "negativity" or pessimism does not justify words like "droning" and "misery", if it was truly miserable people would just give it a pass.

Now ON TOPIC "40k dying?" the game is less than what it was a few years ago, as a universe for books, models and video games: I think the jury is still out, there is a lot of activity there.

I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.

 War Kitten wrote:
I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.

I always find it odd that GW hasn't exhausted the supply of people in the world who don't think 40k is overcosted as feth. The last time I mentioned the cost of a model, other 40k players looked at me funny.

 Selym wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.

I always find it odd that GW hasn't exhausted the supply of people in the world who don't think 40k is overcosted as feth. The last time I mentioned the cost of a model, other 40k players looked at me funny.

Oh no, I firmly believe that it's overcosted as feth. I was just saying that I don't believe it's dying.

 Selym wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I don't believe that 40k is dying. It may be down from what it was a few years ago, but from what I've seen there are still plenty of people who play the game or who are getting into the game.

I always find it odd that GW hasn't exhausted the supply of people in the world who don't think 40k is overcosted as feth. The last time I mentioned the cost of a model, other 40k players looked at me funny.

I have a friend in an online game who works in the printing industry in Australia. She got her hands on a WH40k hardcover Codex recently, and was surprised at its quality compared to its cost. She said that if, at her place of work, they printed a similar book, it would cost 500 dollars just for the one book. Then she explained why GW codices were so cheap: mass-production.

Also, yeah, the models may only cost pennies worth of plastic, but there's gotta be some major costs involved elsewhere in GW's company that marking it up so high is necessary to cover. If there wasn't, then they really shouldn't be making only 10% profit.

That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.

 Pouncey wrote:
I have a friend in an online game who works in the printing industry in Australia. She got her hands on a WH40k hardcover Codex recently, and was surprised at its quality compared to its cost. She said that if, at her place of work, they printed a similar book, it would cost 500 dollars just for the one book. Then she explained why GW codices were so cheap: mass-production.

That's exactly how it works. Printing one copy of something at high quality is always going to be expensive. But when you compare GW's mass-produced books to other mass-produced books then the quality to cost ratio isn't very impressive.

I'm pretty sure the most I've ever paid for a gaming book of equal quality to a GW one (in hardback) was like $70. That was for a core book, GW charges $85-90 for a codex.

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.

:: shrug ::

I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.

:: shrug ::

I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.

It doesn't change the fact that it's too expensive for the consumer. If their costs are that high then something is wrong with their business model.

 Pouncey wrote:
I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.

This is true, but it's a sign of a spectacularly badly run business. They shouldn't be charging more than the competition (especially in total-cost-to-play numbers) and barely making a profit.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.

:: shrug ::

I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.

Their stores are the cost that eats most of their revenue, the thing is if they are not profitable they should be closed, not opening more and more.

Zimko wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.

:: shrug ::

I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.

It doesn't change the fact that it's too expensive for the consumer. If their costs are that high then something is wrong with their business model.

Given that prices are ultimately determined by how much people are willing to pay for something, and they still have enough customers willing to pay their current prices to make their business profitable, their prices are fine. Especially for a luxury product like a tabletop wargame.

That said, yes, I too would like WH40k minis and books to be cheaper.

 Pouncey wrote:

Given that prices are ultimately determined by how much people are willing to pay for something, and they still have enough customers willing to pay their current prices to make their business profitable, their prices are fine. Especially for a luxury product like a tabletop wargame.

That said, yes, I too would like WH40k minis and books to be cheaper.

Eeeeeexcept for the few reports in a row now of falling sales...
You can only argue the market is accepting the price of something if sales are level or going up.

 Pouncey wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.

:: shrug ::

I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.

It doesn't change the fact that it's too expensive for the consumer. If their costs are that high then something is wrong with their business model.

Given that prices are ultimately determined by how much people are willing to pay for something, and they still have enough customers willing to pay their current prices to make their business profitable, their prices are fine. Especially for a luxury product like a tabletop wargame.

That said, yes, I too would like WH40k minis and books to be cheaper.

They're profitable, but revenue has been declining (particularly when adjusted for inflation) at a steady, and alarming rate for over a decade now. They aren't in the red, but if things don't change, in a couple more years they're going to be. Fundamentally, they're selling less stuff to fewer people now than they were 5 years ago or 10 years ago.

I know that I personally have stopped purchasing. Where in say, 2007, I probably dumped a couple hundred bucks a month on GW stuff, I've dropped nothing on GW in almost a year (and what I did purchase this year was extremely discounted from the FLGS, and I had store credit to cover most of it, I think I spent a grand total of $27).

Good points, both of you.

I haven't bought much from GW in the past year or two, but my collection of models is essentially complete.

 Pouncey wrote:
Good points, both of you.

I haven't bought much from GW in the past year or two, but my collection of models is essentially complete.

That's a good place to be in

I mean, there's some more stuff I'd love to get, a Knight maybe, some more Russ tanks, but...$$ and Time

A large part fo GW's costs go in running their retail chain. That's why I argue they should carry a wider range of games, which I believe would appeal to more customers and increase the selling power of the setup.

 jonolikespie wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
That's odd, because there are plenty of other companies that put out full color, hardback books of similar quality that are cheaper or with vastly higher page counts for the same price, or that have *way* lower production runs. Battlefront Spartan Games, Infinity, etc.

:: shrug ::

I still think GW marks stuff up as high as they do because they have to cover costs elsewhere in the company. That 10% number I mentioned was from one of their financial reports a few years ago. Meaning that if they dropped their prices by 10%, they would no longer be making any money, and if they dropped it even further, they'd be losing money overall.

Their stores are the cost that eats most of their revenue, the thing is if they are not profitable they should be closed, not opening more and more.

But they won't because they're still living in the early 90s where they feel the GW store is the "hub" of Warhammer. Which is even more ironic since they've cut them to the bone and don't give them tools to be anything other than a storefront. I had a GW store open in my area finally (the only one in the area, the other I think may be like 3 hours away) so I went there one day to see it. Smallish store but had a lot of stock, reminded me of a cell phone store in its layout (that's the idea I guess, since GW thinks it's Apple). One small display table with DV on one side and AOS on the other, one regular sized 40k table and one smaller (4x4 maybe) table with Fantasy themed stuff for AOS I presume. Single employee who seemed nice enough, not too pushy and was enthusiastic. That's not a hub, that's a place you swing by to pick something up on the way home from work. They were talking about starting up a league, and having a calendar for people to schedule games because there's only the one table to play on. Yeah, that will get people into the store...

It shows how stupid they are, the retail stores eat up most of their revenue but they make the retail stores basically worthless to anyone who would really spend money. But then again their business model is present stuff to get clueless parents to buy Little Timmy a box of space marines here and there, and when he leaves after a year who cares you got money. They operate a multi-national business like a fly by night scam.