aka_mythos wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:
Yes the am elite choises are a joke as well as the fast attack options.

It's unfortunately the GW rule that Marine must always be better, that limits IG. Where IG elites end up being about a single extreme which makes them so narrowly beneficial they're mostly overpriced. I like Ratlings and I think they're fairly priced. They've never won me any games but what IG unit consistently does?

Ratlings dont really pack enough oomf for for any meaningful role anymore, and equivalents from other armies are just plain better. Eldar Rangers for example have the exact same weapon and "shoot+run" rules, but have better stats, get Shrouded instead of Stealth, are ObSec Troops, have access to better support, and cost about the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 G00fySmiley wrote:
Honestly I see IG and their tanks as the orks or tyranids of humanity. All this talk about making them tougher and more savable... most of their stuff is over costed for what they get, but an "elite" IG makes very little sense to me, they should have a high model count and take large amounts of casualties to get the job done. some of the stuff floated here like making heavy weapons teams t7 with a 3+ cover... seriously for the points that is absurd. What makes HWT good is that you can take a gak ton of them, they should be about 1/2 the points cost so you get a ton of shots and a ton of models. The exemptions are leman russ tanks which should be pretty beefy per the fluff and are the oen thing that is not just thrown away in droves to get something done.

eh, there are some well grounded "elite-ish" IG forces. Things like a DKoK Assault Brigade or Stormtrooper company consisting of well equipped and elite mechanized forces (though obviously not on par with Space Marines).

 vostroyan second born wrote:
Yes the am elite choises are a joke as well as the fast attack options.

Not if you take Vultures. Vultures are pretty good for their price and what they do. Ofc, that they are not oficially in the codex that's another talk...

One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

I think an interesting mechanic that could be implemented revolves around the idea of giving all leaders in the army- that is sergeants, officers, commissars, etc.- a special rule. Essentially add up the number of these leaders at the beginning of every turn and your army gains a certain benefit or two. Imagine the Dark Eldar Power from Pain rule, but centered on the existence of the command structure. Essentially, the more leaders still alive the better your army functions (as it should).

I don't know I'm just spitballing here.

 Ignatius wrote:
One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

Yeah...it's a "fixation with the deletion of units" that I don't like.

Or maybe it's just I want them to friggin' clean up the Codex and get rid of the garbage. Rough Riders have not, will not, and never have been relevant. There were a few gimmick lists involving them at times but even then they were useless.
Ratlings are the same thing.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

It's not a "niche playstyle for Guard". Blobs of Infantry are well-known, and there's a reason that there's references online to the "Conscript Tarpit" where it's Conscripts with a Priest in there.

And really, saying that you play those lists doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I play my Raptors as the Raven Guard Talon Strike Force, and it's done pretty well for me despite constantly playing against Tau(who negate ALL of the advantages that the TSF and its components grant.

If you were, say, to mention that you played those lists against certain others or anything of that nature--that's helpful. That lets us have a data point to start comparing notes about(Straken+Rough Riders+Guard Blobs does well v. Orks but not Marines, for example).

As it stands? You just threw out the fact that you play a list a certain way. Not how the list does for you or what you take within the list or whatever.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

So what if he's been shifted to the LOW spot? Just take him as an Unbound LOW if you need the Crutch Commander.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

It leaves us with the simple fact that there's a ton of things that can be done which aren't just "lol reduce points". And notice that NOBODY has said anything about adding to the survival attributes for the basic Guardsmen. The discussion regarding survival has been strictly regarding Heavy Weapon Teams--which are, at this point, a joke when it comes to surviving anything.

Also "making them flatout better" wouldn't interfere at all with the fluff of the Guard, unless your only exposure to the fluff of the Guard is from reading bolterporn where their role is to die in droves to let the Mary Sues get their objectives done.

We're talking about professional soldiery here, not the friggin' PDF.

I think an interesting mechanic that could be implemented revolves around the idea of giving all leaders in the army- that is sergeants, officers, commissars, etc.- a special rule. Essentially add up the number of these leaders at the beginning of every turn and your army gains a certain benefit or two. Imagine the Dark Eldar Power from Pain rule, but centered on the existence of the command structure. Essentially, the more leaders still alive the better your army functions (as it should).

That's as useless as Orders are now.

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

I think it would be cool if IG got the option to purchase off-table artillery and the ability to call in shots on enemy units in LoS with their vox casters. Maybe limit it to 1 piece per platoon or something so it doesn't get too ridiculous. That way infantry would actually be somewhat dangerous - you'd better kill that vox operator quick or you're gonna have Earthshaker rounds raining down on your head.

I think that would be much more realistic than the tape recorder vox casters we have now. The radio is an infantryman's most deadly weapon afterall.

Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I think it would be cool if IG got the option to purchase off-table artillery and the ability to call in shots on enemy units in LoS with their vox casters. Maybe limit it to 1 piece per platoon or something so it doesn't get too ridiculous. That way infantry would actually be somewhat dangerous - you'd better kill that vox operator quick or you're gonna have Earthshaker rounds raining down on your head.

I think that would be much more realistic than the tape recorder vox casters we have now. The radio is an infantryman's most deadly weapon afterall.

I like the idea because it speaks to the what distinguishes the IG... A space marine army is about a company's worth of forces but while SM can fight larger battles many times their forces are more greatly distributed dealing with things on the other side of the planet... but the IG are almost always this massive force, where the players army is realistically only a small element of that massive force. Somewhere miles and miles away from the main battle should be IG firebases with artillery lined up for shooting great ranges.

In practical terms it isn't much different than a vox-caster carrying guardsmen effectively being armed with a demo-charge.

Well, I have just returned from my club where one of my friends has been relishing about all the things his 30K legion gets and all the things his new psychic powers can do....
Really, with all these buffs Eldar, Tau and Marines keep on getting and all these fancy new units I dont know why I even bother turning up. Hell, GW might as well make a mechanic whereby your opponent(s) role a D6 each turn and on a '6' the IG player automatically loses - the outcome would be the same.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
I think it would be cool if IG got the option to purchase off-table artillery and the ability to call in shots on enemy units in LoS with their vox casters. .

The old Imperial Armour book 2 used to allow us to do this. You could purchase Artillery shots as HS choices and then, after rolling for them on reserves, call them in with your command section. It was really fun but was sadly removed. I did use them a while back against a certain opponent of mine. He wanted a game without tanks and kept coming up with reasons why there couldnt be any (Bad terrain, cant get them through the narrow streets, etc).
So I built my list as an unbound one with 1000 points worth of strikes in it.

He turned up with a Legion of the Damned list including homebrewed LotD Terminators and the like and some homebrewed mary sue character who got to start on the table turn one (so he couldnt auto lose). So his turn two rolls around and he makes most of his reserve rolls thanks to this characters abilities and teleports all these LotD models in right in front of my entrenched infantry with a few midfield to grab some objectives.
Oh boy, his gak eating grin was rage inducing..... Right up until the point I started rolling for my reserves:
"You have reserves"
'Yeah, just some off table strikes'

One phase later and over a quarter of his list had vanished. He raged about it and tried to come up with reasons why the could never be used ever again

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

Yeah...it's a "fixation with the deletion of units" that I don't like.

Or maybe it's just I want them to friggin' clean up the Codex and get rid of the garbage. Rough Riders have not, will not, and never have been relevant. There were a few gimmick lists involving them at times but even then they were useless.
Ratlings are the same thing.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

It's not a "niche playstyle for Guard". Blobs of Infantry are well-known, and there's a reason that there's references online to the "Conscript Tarpit" where it's Conscripts with a Priest in there.

And really, saying that you play those lists doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I play my Raptors as the Raven Guard Talon Strike Force, and it's done pretty well for me despite constantly playing against Tau(who negate ALL of the advantages that the TSF and its components grant.

If you were, say, to mention that you played those lists against certain others or anything of that nature--that's helpful. That lets us have a data point to start comparing notes about(Straken+Rough Riders+Guard Blobs does well v. Orks but not Marines, for example).

As it stands? You just threw out the fact that you play a list a certain way. Not how the list does for you or what you take within the list or whatever.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

So what if he's been shifted to the LOW spot? Just take him as an Unbound LOW if you need the Crutch Commander.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

It leaves us with the simple fact that there's a ton of things that can be done which aren't just "lol reduce points". And notice that NOBODY has said anything about adding to the survival attributes for the basic Guardsmen. The discussion regarding survival has been strictly regarding Heavy Weapon Teams--which are, at this point, a joke when it comes to surviving anything.

Also "making them flatout better" wouldn't interfere at all with the fluff of the Guard, unless your only exposure to the fluff of the Guard is from reading bolterporn where their role is to die in droves to let the Mary Sues get their objectives done.

We're talking about professional soldiery here, not the friggin' PDF.

I think an interesting mechanic that could be implemented revolves around the idea of giving all leaders in the army- that is sergeants, officers, commissars, etc.- a special rule. Essentially add up the number of these leaders at the beginning of every turn and your army gains a certain benefit or two. Imagine the Dark Eldar Power from Pain rule, but centered on the existence of the command structure. Essentially, the more leaders still alive the better your army functions (as it should).

That's as useless as Orders are now.

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

Good lord man. I don't know what I did to draw such hostility.

I like Rough Riders, I like their idea, I like the models I've created for them, and I like how they fit into my army. Most importantly I like how they fit into the theme of the Guard, which I'm sure you've picked up, is the complete opposite of how you feel about them. The only difference between our opinions is our tone. Regardless of anyone disagreeing with yours, you still seem to imply your opinion is the "correct" one- if there were such a thing. I mean I don't like Ratlings or Ogryn, but I don't pretend to believe my view of them is any more correct than anyone else's.

My play style is important when you're talking in these kinds of threads, as it can give context to my opinions. I don't know about you but the less someone has to infer about me and my opinions the better. Some opinions make a lot more sense when they are given context in this sense, you're free to ignore it if you'd like, but I'm not sure that attacking the simple fact that I stated it is helping the thread either.

Commissars are leaders. They operate outside of the command structure but they are quite clearly leaders. Not necessarily in the same sense as an officer or sergeant, but they definitely lead.

The intent of my post was a harmless Segway to my later contribution to the thread.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack? ).

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack? ).

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

With Eternal Warrior that would mean that a Heavy Weapon Team would tank a shot from basically any weapon that doesn't have strength D. I'm imagining a Deathstrike missile landing square on top of them and one guy exploding into nothing and the other guy just kind of looking around wondering what happened.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack? ).

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

I dont think they would ever release thudd guns or earthshakers as their own plastic kits simply because thats kind of a classic forgeworld mainstay. I can see them however making an all new plastic artillery of some kind that may fall in between, maybe one that has different kinds of shells like a thunderfire but more in the mid strength range? (smoke shells for cover saves would be ballin!)

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Not saying this is a good idea, because it probably isn't... but what if IG squads with heavy weapons treated them as artillery units... like the Rapier.... it becomes a boost to survivability until its taken out and can enjoy higher than normal stats because it abstractly represents something different than the average guard.... until the gun it taken out anyone in the squad can continue to operate it. I'm sure there is a good reason this wouldn't work but it was a passing thought.

Really they should just get real artillery kits in plastic - Rapier/Thudd Gun, Earthshaker/Medusa. It's really kind of jarring that IG of all armies, doesn't have any artillery units. And honestly, off-table artillery is probably a non-starter anyway since it necessarily involves them making rules for, and you spending points on, "units" that don't cost any extra money. There's no way that's getting past marketing unless they find a way to sell the special vox operators separately ($30 clamp pack? ).

Off-table artillery is more of a starter than you might think. Remember that the Master of Ordnance is a thing, and the new Cadian Warlord Traits actually include a Warlord Trait that makes your Warlord into a Master of Ordnance.

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death, but not if the Instant Death is coming from a template or blast.

Thudd guns used to be a relatively mainstream imperial unit with a metal kit...alas now its FW while GW brought it back for SM's as the Thunderfire Cannon.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:
One thing that I'll never understand is Kanluwen's fixation with the deletion of units that he doesn't like. But the Rough Rider discussion is over- unfortunately (or maybe fortunately for the thread) I missed it.

Yeah...it's a "fixation with the deletion of units" that I don't like.

Or maybe it's just I want them to friggin' clean up the Codex and get rid of the garbage. Rough Riders have not, will not, and never have been relevant. There were a few gimmick lists involving them at times but even then they were useless.
Ratlings are the same thing.

I like to play heavy Infantry lists with an emphasis on Close Combat. Colonel Straken, Rough Riders, and large blobs of infantry are all generally the foundation of my lists. It's a pretty niche play style for Guard, so my experiences may be slightly different than normal.

It's not a "niche playstyle for Guard". Blobs of Infantry are well-known, and there's a reason that there's references online to the "Conscript Tarpit" where it's Conscripts with a Priest in there.

And really, saying that you play those lists doesn't actually add anything to the discussion. I play my Raptors as the Raven Guard Talon Strike Force, and it's done pretty well for me despite constantly playing against Tau(who negate ALL of the advantages that the TSF and its components grant.

If you were, say, to mention that you played those lists against certain others or anything of that nature--that's helpful. That lets us have a data point to start comparing notes about(Straken+Rough Riders+Guard Blobs does well v. Orks but not Marines, for example).

As it stands? You just threw out the fact that you play a list a certain way. Not how the list does for you or what you take within the list or whatever.

That said I've found that Guard don't have the staying power they once did. Used to be 100 infantry models in any sort of cover was more than enough to last you the whole game- bar something like a 50 man squad being run down. I've had moderate success adding divination psykers for a 4++ invulnerable, and it works well if you get the power. Azrael also works for his 4++ to the squad, but he's very expensive and the new codex has shifted him to the LOW spot.

So what if he's been shifted to the LOW spot? Just take him as an Unbound LOW if you need the Crutch Commander.

You can't reduce the points cost of guardsmen, as conscripts would need to be reduced even further, cluttering tables and becoming unmanageable. You can't add to their survavability without some justifiable reason- I think "because space magic" would be a pretty lame cop out. And lastly making them flat out better would interfere with the fluff of the Guard and being humans. So where does that leave us.

It leaves us with the simple fact that there's a ton of things that can be done which aren't just "lol reduce points". And notice that NOBODY has said anything about adding to the survival attributes for the basic Guardsmen. The discussion regarding survival has been strictly regarding Heavy Weapon Teams--which are, at this point, a joke when it comes to surviving anything.

Also "making them flatout better" wouldn't interfere at all with the fluff of the Guard, unless your only exposure to the fluff of the Guard is from reading bolterporn where their role is to die in droves to let the Mary Sues get their objectives done.

We're talking about professional soldiery here, not the friggin' PDF.

And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

TIL the single most "40k" character in the entire IG faction, who's been there since the very first IG codex, is a joke that should just be thrown out because it's not in one of the plastic Cadian infantry boxes...

GreyCrow wrote:

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death, but not if the Instant Death is coming from a template or blast.

Agree with your Instant Death point for Swarms !

Actually, how about making Instant Death based on Strength rather than Strength = Toughness x 2 ? Like S8 has the Instant Death special rule. Or S8+ deal 2 wounds per unsaved wound, +1 for AP2, +2 for AP1.

A bit of a side topic, but that'd balance the MC/Vehicle stuff quite a bit.

Ok, immunity to Instant death, but if they get hit by a blast or template each model takes a # of wounds = however many they have remaining. This rule could apply to attack bikes too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
TIL the single most "40k" character in the entire IG faction, who's been there since the very first IG codex, is a joke that should just be thrown out because it's not in one of the plastic Cadian infantry boxes...

You're forgetting the new fluff where all regiments really want to be Cadian and Ursarkar Creed is their spiritual liege.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Are you seriously off your meds? Your IG cred is so slim right now, brother. The Hero of Armageddon, Commisar Yarrick should be binned because you don't like him?

generalchaos34 wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


And really, you want to talk about "making them flatout better" messing with fluff and you want to count Commissars(Who are NEVER and HAVE NEVER beyond Colonel-Commissar Gaunt) as leaders?

You might as well start counting Ratlings as leaders at that point.

The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

I like to think of commissars like modern day Warrant officers or LDOs (limited duty officers). They have all the rights and privileges of an officer but are not typically allowed general command of a ship or unit because they are classified as specialists instead of line officers. They are no way any less of an officer than any other, they just have a specific duty to fulfill (in the case of a commissar, that being discipline/morale) and if need be are more than capable of taking command. The fluff is replete with commissars leading the charge, being advisers to commanders then offing them for cowardice and taking command themselves, or simply gathering up disparate forces and making units out of them on the battlefield and leading them to victory. I would on principle argue that a commissar is far more worthy of command than your typical low ranking guard officer who is a green son/daughter of nobility, with the exception of the hardcore units that promote their officers from within like with DKoK or Catachan. Even the extra cowardly favorite Ciaphas Cain found himself leading forces into battle on occasion, although never keeping command.

Exactly, which is where the thought that they would count as "leaders" to the count. This is the way I have always interpreted their role.

GreyCrow wrote:

As for heavy weapon teams, just give them immunity to Instant Death since there's obviously 2 guys to kill, not 1 multi-wound guy (Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death too, but I digress), the ability to "dig in" for an enhanced cover save, and a price drop.

Swarms should have immunity to Instant Death, but not if the Instant Death is coming from a template or blast.

Agree with your Instant Death point for Swarms !

Actually, how about making Instant Death based on Strength rather than Strength = Toughness x 2 ? Like S8 has the Instant Death special rule. Or S8+ deal 2 wounds per unsaved wound, +1 for AP2, +2 for AP1.

A bit of a side topic, but that'd balance the MC/Vehicle stuff quite a bit.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Why do you even play the guard if you hate all the fluff units? play a different game if you want realistic modern non fantasy military. Holy gak sir you have just been unyielding in your ideas for the AM and seem to be un able to understand that some people want fixes not the ax. You need to relax and enjoy the fluff or just play the game and keep your venom of fluff units to yourself

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Are you seriously off your meds? Your IG cred is so slim right now, brother. The Hero of Armageddon, Commisar Yarrick should be binned because you don't like him?

The "Hero of Armageddon" who was captured by an Ork and freed because the Ork wanted something to do.

If my "IG cred" in your mind requires me to like a terrible character, then I'm glad to have none.

Yarrick can be gone because too many new players immediately grab him and then do nothing but complain when they can't win using Yarrick or he doesn't "do Orders like the officers do".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

Why do you even play the guard if you hate all the fluff units? play a different game if you want realistic modern non fantasy military. Holy gak sir you have just been unyielding in your ideas for the AM and seem to be un able to understand that some people want fixes not the ax. You need to relax and enjoy the fluff or just play the game and keep your venom of fluff units to yourself

And you need to understand that most of the "fixes" realistically involve axing the crappy stuff that's been around since forever. "Fixing" the Guard book isn't viable at this point, the whole book needs to be torn down and rebuilt.

The Skitarii are what Guard should have been, even with Doctrina Imperatives being limited to once per game outside of certain Formations. Every unit has a specific role and meshes well.

Where did such raw hatred for Yarrick materialize from, did he run over your dog or something? I'm like...really amused here, I've never seen someone so hot and bothered over the mere existence of Commissar Yarrick before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on Yarrick before in any way ever.

I'm getting popcorn.

EDIT: Also, I've never seen someone just grab Yarrick and run him as their first IG command unit, hell I almost never see him period. Where are all these people starting and then failing with Yarrick?

I have never seen Yarrick being played. I always thought he was overcosted for just being some guy with a fancy hat*. But I never knew he was such a controversial character!

*Rules wise. I think he is a great character. I love how Ghazgkull basically has a mancrush on him.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where did such raw hatred for Yarrick materialize from, did he run over your dog or something? I'm like...really amused here, I've never seen someone so hot and bothered over the mere existence of Commissar Yarrick before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on Yarrick before in any way ever.

I'm getting popcorn.

EDIT: Also, I've never seen someone just grab Yarrick and run him as their first IG command unit, hell I almost never see him period. Where are all these people starting and then failing with Yarrick?

I don't really understand this either. Commissar Yarrick is a large reason why I am even interested in 40k. Back in 3rd edition, it was the Armageddon conflict & the rivalry between Yarrick & Ghaz that got me interested in the game. Me & my brother have been collecting for 15+ years now I think? I've been building my Steel Legion army, while my brother has been building his Waaaaagh. We have faced each other many times over the years, but never Yarrick vs Ghaz. One day we plan to have them meet in battle for the true battle of Armageddon. I like everything about him. I wish his rules were better but they are ok.

Regarding the comments to remove units such as rough riders etc from the codex, why in the world would anyone want that? We have lost so many units already that will likely never return & you want to remove more? Many of these units have models. If GW would just take the time to fix their rules, I think most would gladly field them. I see no reason to remove them, when the obvious solution is just to make them competitive or increase their effectiveness.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

NOW you've gone too far.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

NOW you've gone too far.

How in holy hell is there nothing more FRAGGIN GUARD than Commissar Balls of Adamantium Yarrick? Look at this man and tell me there is something that says "I am the hammer of the emperor" more than this stone cold space pimp? He is the only man in the universe Orks respect, he has his own personal baneblade called the "Fortress of Arrogance" which he mounted an entire crusade just to get back.


He is the most interesting man in the universe.

"I dont always slaughter millions, but when I do, I prefer Orks"

Yeah, I've NEVER heard of anyone hating on Yarrick since I've been in the hobby. That's maybe about over a decade.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

I'm not sure you are an IG player.

Perhaps you are a closet ultrasmurf?

Yeah, I kinda have to agree with the general sentiment towards Yarrick being a big part of IG fluff. As an Ork player it's shocking to see to your disregard towards Yarrick, he's a damn tough ass oomie, tough enough to warrant T4 despite his age (and isn't as tricked out with bionics in the same way as Straken is) and smart enough to use an Ork power klaw. He's the prime example of a mortal man fighting against the odds to the bitter end.

 Selym wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
The Hero of Armageddon would like a word on Commissars as AM commanders. Oh what's his name? Mr evil eye himself. You know the guy that is so fething awesome he hangs out with the High Marshal of the Black Templar!

Yarrick's a joke. He can be gone too.

I'm not sure you are an IG player.

Perhaps you are a closet ultrasmurf?

Hey, that's no fair. I'm an Ultrasmurf fan and I think Yarrick is badass.

Guys, Im starting to see what the older players saw when I first started, its all a big cycle over and over.

First starting - "OMG, your playing I.G? So weak"

A few years ago - "OMFG TFG Playing I.G. just because the new dex and so O.P."

Now - "Oh, playing I.G., you never want to win do you?"

Just wait, all I.G. will replace Tau, Eldar, as THE army again. Only exception is SM , which seems to always be the same for the most part.

Edit: I forgot, my point to OP. You just keep doing you and ignore what they say in the store! They are your toy soldiers to build, paint, collect and play with. When you stop having fun , hang on to them, but start a small new band of a new army and roll with it for a bit.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where did such raw hatred for Yarrick materialize from, did he run over your dog or something? I'm like...really amused here, I've never seen someone so hot and bothered over the mere existence of Commissar Yarrick before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on Yarrick before in any way ever.

I'm getting popcorn.

EDIT: Also, I've never seen someone just grab Yarrick and run him as their first IG command unit, hell I almost never see him period. Where are all these people starting and then failing with Yarrick?

So, to put into context:
Every other week we have this guy who comes into my local shop, plays his Guard against a known powergamer and won't ever shut the hell up about "how bad" Guard are.

His list is Yarrick, two Veteran Squads, and then some tanks. When he was first starting out, he had been in while I was running my Guard and asked for some advice. I gave him some advice(a decent number of Officers, Infantry Squads rather than Veteran Squads--the usual advice), and thought that was the end of it.
The next week he was in trying to give another new Guard player advice, which was "Yarrick and Veterans is the best thing ever" then trying to play it off as the advice I gave him.

Fast forward to a year later, he's STILL doing that same crap. And still doing nothing but whining about how poorly his Guard perform and how Yarrick should be so much better yadda yadda yadda.

So yeah. I don't like Yarrick only because I have to hear ever other week about how bad he is or how great he should be. It's not as big of an annoyance as you seem to think(the internet gives no context to rants, beyond them just being rants and it's not difficult to type words) but I dislike Yarrick being an HQ choice. If he stays in, then he needs to:
A) Not be fieldable as an HQ choice by himself.
B) Only be able to be added to a Company Command Squad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

How in holy hell is there nothing more FRAGGIN GUARD than Commissar Balls of Adamantium Yarrick? Look at this man and tell me there is something that says "I am the hammer of the emperor" more than this stone cold space pimp? He is the only man in the universe Orks respect, he has his own personal baneblade called the "Fortress of Arrogance" which he mounted an entire crusade just to get back.

"He" didn't mount an entire crusade.

The Guard mounted an invasion of Golgotha, and the Cadian 18th Army Group("Exolon") reclaimed it with a token assist from the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Yarrick was literally nowhere to be found for the entirety of this. He was elsewhere.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Where did such raw hatred for Yarrick materialize from, did he run over your dog or something? I'm like...really amused here, I've never seen someone so hot and bothered over the mere existence of Commissar Yarrick before. I don't think I've ever seen anyone hate on Yarrick before in any way ever.

I'm getting popcorn.

EDIT: Also, I've never seen someone just grab Yarrick and run him as their first IG command unit, hell I almost never see him period. Where are all these people starting and then failing with Yarrick?

So, to put into context:
Every other week we have this guy who comes into my local shop, plays his Guard against a known powergamer and won't ever shut the hell up about "how bad" Guard are.

His list is Yarrick, two Veteran Squads, and then some tanks. When he was first starting out, he had been in while I was running my Guard and asked for some advice. I gave him some advice(a decent number of Officers, Infantry Squads rather than Veteran Squads--the usual advice), and thought that was the end of it.
The next week he was in trying to give another new Guard player advice, which was "Yarrick and Veterans is the best thing ever" then trying to play it off as the advice I gave him.

Fast forward to a year later, he's STILL doing that same crap. And still doing nothing but whining about how poorly his Guard perform and how Yarrick should be so much better yadda yadda yadda.

So yeah. I don't like Yarrick only because I have to hear ever other week about how bad he is or how great he should be. It's not as big of an annoyance as you seem to think(the internet gives no context to rants, beyond them just being rants and it's not difficult to type words) but I dislike Yarrick being an HQ choice. If he stays in, then he needs to:
A) Not be fieldable as an HQ choice by himself.
B) Only be able to be added to a Company Command Squad.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

How in holy hell is there nothing more FRAGGIN GUARD than Commissar Balls of Adamantium Yarrick? Look at this man and tell me there is something that says "I am the hammer of the emperor" more than this stone cold space pimp? He is the only man in the universe Orks respect, he has his own personal baneblade called the "Fortress of Arrogance" which he mounted an entire crusade just to get back.

"He" didn't mount an entire crusade.

The Guard mounted an invasion of Golgotha, and the Cadian 18th Army Group("Exolon") reclaimed it with a token assist from the Adeptus Mechanicus.

Yarrick was literally nowhere to be found for the entirety of this. He was elsewhere.

You can't hate on Yarrick just because some jerk dosent want to play him right (he belongs in a blob!). And maybe "crusade" wasnt the best word to use but anyone who can mount an entire Imperial Guard expedition to one of the most Ork infested planets in the galaxy just to get their wheels back is certainly worth noting.

I have personally had some success with yarrick in a kitted out power blob, since he is the only officer who can give orders and is also an independent character making him extremely hard to kill, plus his warlord trait is one of the better ones. My only real complaintis the price and the fact that you cant also have an CCS without defaulting him to your warlord (it seems like an oversight but still a pain). Alternatively I have joined him with a large crew of artillery carriages to give them nice leadership combined with majority T7, almost guaranteed orders and no falling back (and he helps out Rapiers and Thudd guns nearby with orders and warlord trait). Plus if they are assualted Yarrick is more than capable of defending his position.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

You can't hate on Yarrick just because some jerk dosent want to play him right (he belongs in a blob!).

If I'm going to be honest, I've never liked any of the "Commissars who are really commanders but mostly really commissar" characters. I don't mind Gaunt because while they've Mary Sued him to hell and back, they've also made a point of showing that he is fallible.
Yarrick is just the Cato Sicarius of the Imperial Guard: somehow he's the best at everything, even if that thing wasn't around when he was.

Yarrick's like that one friend who no matter what you or someone else has done; they've done it before and better.
But then when you try to get them to show it, they fail miserably.

And maybe "crusade" wasnt the best word to use but anyone who can mount an entire Imperial Guard expedition to one of the most Ork infested planets in the galaxy just to get their wheels back is certainly worth noting.

It wasn't a question of Yarrick saying "Go get my tank". It's literally that someone in the Adeptus Mechanicus petitioned the Munitorum to mount a rescue operation for Fortress of Arrogance, citing that Yarrick's tank itself was a relic of extreme importance and suggesting that it needed to be recovered for the war effort on Armageddon.

Read "Gunheads" to find out about why that was a dirty, dirty lie. Or check the spoilers below:

I have personally had some success with yarrick in a kitted out power blob, since he is the only officer who can give orders and is also an independent character making him extremely hard to kill, plus his warlord trait is one of the better ones. My only real complaintis the price and the fact that you cant also have an CCS without defaulting him to your warlord (it seems like an oversight but still a pain). Alternatively I have joined him with a large crew of artillery carriages to give them nice leadership combined with majority T7, almost guaranteed orders and no falling back (and he helps out Rapiers and Thudd guns nearby with orders and warlord trait). Plus if they are assualted Yarrick is more than capable of defending his position.

It's great that you've had some success with him, but I just cannot see the purpose behind him. I would rather, if they keep Yarrick around, they pull a Marneus Calgar and give him two distinct profiles for wargear:
Pre-Ghazghkull Thraka and Post-Ghazghkull Thraka.

And for christ's sake, bring back Kasrkin. Give me a damn Kasrkin character(Lukas Bastonne SHOULD have been that character but for whatever reason they let Cruddace feth that up too) and Kasrkin Platoons, you can keep your precious Yarrick.

on the topic of Yarrick when is the inquisition going to end him anyway? I mean he is so tough and only can hang with ork warbosses because the orks believe he can and as we know with orks when they believe something will happen their influence ted the dots somehow though... btu on the table I have seen him played well a few times but mostly did not earn his points back which is a shame, he should be pretty badass and one of the few extremely tough cc monsters for the IG

 G00fySmiley wrote:
on the topic of Yarrick when is the inquisition going to end him anyway? I mean he is so tough and only can hang with ork warbosses because the orks believe he can and as we know with orks when they believe something will happen their influence ted the dots somehow though... btu on the table I have seen him played well a few times but mostly did not earn his points back which is a shame, he should be pretty badass and one of the few extremely tough cc monsters for the IG

Welcome to the IG. Where even our CC monsters are gak in close combat.

In terms of Doctrines and multiple types of units/specialties/regiments/blarghiddy:

I'm all in favor of different Regimental Bonuses. The Imperial Guard ISN'T just the Cadians and should in no way be treated as such. Cadia is in one section of space. That's like saying Space Marines should just be "Codex: Ultramarines" which is what the old SM book (and even the new one to a degree) was always joked as.

To take away regiments would be a fatal flaw for making the Guard "The Guard" again. It's the backbone of the Imperium stuck in the dirt, Billy from Necromunda and Bobby from another Hive world conscripted into service to the Glorious Emperor: A being touted as God; to defend against creatures that would drive most to the brink of insanity.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

 IronMaster wrote:
In terms of Doctrines and multiple types of units/specialties/regiments/blarghiddy:

I'm all in favor of different Regimental Bonuses. The Imperial Guard ISN'T just the Cadians and should in no way be treated as such. Cadia is in one section of space. That's like saying Space Marines should just be "Codex: Ultramarines" which is what the old SM book (and even the new one to a degree) was always joked as.

The Imperial Guard isn't just the Cadians, but Cadians serve as a pattern in terms of doctrines and training for the more 'elite' Guard units. And notice that nobody has actually said rebrand the book as "Imperial Guard" while removing everything else. My argument is that at this point in time, until we see anything actually justifying the name "Imperial Guard"? Remove the non-Cadian stuff and just make the book "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".

And while Cadia is in one section of space, Cadians are damn near everywhere according to the fluff. And that's not taking into account that the Cadian system proper has more worlds than people think about:
Prosan(1st planet from the sun) is a hostile environment training world--you're not gonna see a population coming from there; it's literally just a massive training ground.
Korolis is the 2nd planet and they produce Promethian weapons grade atomic material--not gonna see a population of soldiers coming from there.
Kasr Sonnen is the 3rd planet and a fortress world. That's all we know about it.
Cadia Prime is the 4th planet, and that planet is well-known. Don't need to say anything beyond that.
Kasr Holn is another fortress world and the 5th planet.
Then you get to Macharia, a militarized hive planet.
Then Vigilatum; an Imperial Navy training ground.
Kasr Partox is next; another fortress world.
St. Josmane's Hope; a military prison planet.
Lastly you have Solar Mariatus, a planet devoted strictly to war material production.

And note that's just the Cadian solar system. You still have the entire Cadian sector to think about--and if you consider the fact that all the Regiments might adopt the name "Cadian Shock Troops" it makes a hell of a lot more sense to consider just how prevalent they are.

To take away regiments would be a fatal flaw for making the Guard "The Guard" again. It's the backbone of the Imperium stuck in the dirt, Billy from Necromunda and Bobby from another Hive world conscripted into service to the Glorious Emperor: A being touted as God; to defend against creatures that would drive most to the brink of insanity.

Regiments were stripped away a long time ago. There is NOTHING separating a Cadian Shock Troop Regiment from a Vostroyan Fancypants Regiment or a Valhallan "We have moustaches!" regiment.

The only thing that really comes into play is the new Mont'ka detachment and relics, and even then while it's supposed to show a strictly Cadian Army Group it can be adapted for any of the other Regiments via "Counts As"(the only characters you cannot take are Nork Deddog, Yarrick, Straken, and Harker) in the case of named characters("This is my Valhallan version of Ursukar Creed; Creed with Moustache!").

I guess the other time it comes into play is with the FW Regiments, but changing C: IG wouldn't really affect them beyond the tanks, Relics, and Orders system since they don't even really use C: IG beyond those.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

Different regiments do that--but there's no rules for different regiments in C: IG.. There haven't been rules for different regiments in C: IG for a loooong time. To pretend that stripping the book down to just Cadians somehow detracts from the ability of one to field alternate regiments is just silly.

C: IG requires you to play make-believe more than other book when it comes down to it. Shifting focus from cramming in legacy characters like Yarrick, Straken, and Harker and legacy units like Rough Riders, Ratlings, and even Ogryn to instead focus on Cadian Shock Troops as a single faction isn't a terrible idea.

 IronMaster wrote:
In terms of Doctrines and multiple types of units/specialties/regiments/blarghiddy:

I'm all in favor of different Regimental Bonuses. The Imperial Guard ISN'T just the Cadians and should in no way be treated as such. Cadia is in one section of space. That's like saying Space Marines should just be "Codex: Ultramarines" which is what the old SM book (and even the new one to a degree) was always joked as.

To take away regiments would be a fatal flaw for making the Guard "The Guard" again. It's the backbone of the Imperium stuck in the dirt, Billy from Necromunda and Bobby from another Hive world conscripted into service to the Glorious Emperor: A being touted as God; to defend against creatures that would drive most to the brink of insanity.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

I'd say a vast majority of the Imperial Guard player base would agree with the idea that different Regiments from different worlds is a good thing.

The thing about it is if they aren't going to really put effort into it, having different regiments and rules for them won't be enough for what you- or me- really want. I want detail and effort put into it to make my army truly "mine". Since that's not going to happen, I'm ok with Cadians being the posterchild, as they are the most "median" of the regiments in the Guard. That is, they aren't too extreme on any side. They make us of all the different kinds of units (except for Rough Riders- a shame really) and can be used as the starting canvas for other regiments one wants to build.

Since the slashing of the doctrine system in the... 3.5(I think?) codex, I've been a fan of the idea of your personal style and the armies character coming out through their appearance, rather than their rules.

Kanluwen wrote:Shifting focus from cramming in legacy characters like Yarrick, Straken, and Harker and legacy units like Rough Riders, Ratlings, and even Ogryn to instead focus on Cadian Shock Troops as a single faction isn't a terrible idea.

I agree with most things you say, but this is one thing I disagree with you on.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
In terms of Doctrines and multiple types of units/specialties/regiments/blarghiddy:

I'm all in favor of different Regimental Bonuses. The Imperial Guard ISN'T just the Cadians and should in no way be treated as such. Cadia is in one section of space. That's like saying Space Marines should just be "Codex: Ultramarines" which is what the old SM book (and even the new one to a degree) was always joked as.

The Imperial Guard isn't just the Cadians, but Cadians serve as a pattern in terms of doctrines and training for the more 'elite' Guard units. And notice that nobody has actually said rebrand the book as "Imperial Guard" while removing everything else. My argument is that at this point in time, until we see anything actually justifying the name "Imperial Guard"? Remove the non-Cadian stuff and just make the book "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".

And while Cadia is in one section of space, Cadians are damn near everywhere according to the fluff. And that's not taking into account that the Cadian system proper has more worlds than people think about:
Prosan(1st planet from the sun) is a hostile environment training world--you're not gonna see a population coming from there; it's literally just a massive training ground.
Korolis is the 2nd planet and they produce Promethian weapons grade atomic material--not gonna see a population of soldiers coming from there.
Kasr Sonnen is the 3rd planet and a fortress world. That's all we know about it.
Cadia Prime is the 4th planet, and that planet is well-known. Don't need to say anything beyond that.
Kasr Holn is another fortress world and the 5th planet.
Then you get to Macharia, a militarized hive planet.
Then Vigilatum; an Imperial Navy training ground.
Kasr Partox is next; another fortress world.
St. Josmane's Hope; a military prison planet.
Lastly you have Solar Mariatus, a planet devoted strictly to war material production.

And note that's just the Cadian solar system. You still have the entire Cadian sector to think about--and if you consider the fact that all the Regiments might adopt the name "Cadian Shock Troops" it makes a hell of a lot more sense to consider just how prevalent they are.

To take away regiments would be a fatal flaw for making the Guard "The Guard" again. It's the backbone of the Imperium stuck in the dirt, Billy from Necromunda and Bobby from another Hive world conscripted into service to the Glorious Emperor: A being touted as God; to defend against creatures that would drive most to the brink of insanity.

Regiments were stripped away a long time ago. There is NOTHING separating a Cadian Shock Troop Regiment from a Vostroyan Fancypants Regiment or a Valhallan "We have moustaches!" regiment.

The only thing that really comes into play is the new Mont'ka detachment and relics, and even then while it's supposed to show a strictly Cadian Army Group it can be adapted for any of the other Regiments via "Counts As"(the only characters you cannot take are Nork Deddog, Yarrick, Straken, and Harker) in the case of named characters("This is my Valhallan version of Ursukar Creed; Creed with Moustache!").

I guess the other time it comes into play is with the FW Regiments, but changing C: IG wouldn't really affect them beyond the tanks, Relics, and Orders system since they don't even really use C: IG beyond those.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

Different regiments do that--but there's no rules for different regiments in C: IG.. There haven't been rules for different regiments in C: IG for a loooong time. To pretend that stripping the book down to just Cadians somehow detracts from the ability of one to field alternate regiments is just silly.

C: IG requires you to play make-believe more than other book when it comes down to it. Shifting focus from cramming in legacy characters like Yarrick, Straken, and Harker and legacy units like Rough Riders, Ratlings, and even Ogryn to instead focus on Cadian Shock Troops as a single faction isn't a terrible idea.

Oh, okay, so everyone should just play with the rules of your favorite army because of reasons. Imperial Guard regiments fight differently, Kan. The Valhallan Ice Warriors don't fight along the same lines as the Elysians. It's silly to tell people that they should just be content with the special rules and characters of just one regiment because you like it the most.

Do you think all marine chapters should fight like the Ultramarines?

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
In terms of Doctrines and multiple types of units/specialties/regiments/blarghiddy:

I'm all in favor of different Regimental Bonuses. The Imperial Guard ISN'T just the Cadians and should in no way be treated as such. Cadia is in one section of space. That's like saying Space Marines should just be "Codex: Ultramarines" which is what the old SM book (and even the new one to a degree) was always joked as.

The Imperial Guard isn't just the Cadians, but Cadians serve as a pattern in terms of doctrines and training for the more 'elite' Guard units. And notice that nobody has actually said rebrand the book as "Imperial Guard" while removing everything else. My argument is that at this point in time, until we see anything actually justifying the name "Imperial Guard"? Remove the non-Cadian stuff and just make the book "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".

And while Cadia is in one section of space, Cadians are damn near everywhere according to the fluff. And that's not taking into account that the Cadian system proper has more worlds than people think about:
Prosan(1st planet from the sun) is a hostile environment training world--you're not gonna see a population coming from there; it's literally just a massive training ground.
Korolis is the 2nd planet and they produce Promethian weapons grade atomic material--not gonna see a population of soldiers coming from there.
Kasr Sonnen is the 3rd planet and a fortress world. That's all we know about it.
Cadia Prime is the 4th planet, and that planet is well-known. Don't need to say anything beyond that.
Kasr Holn is another fortress world and the 5th planet.
Then you get to Macharia, a militarized hive planet.
Then Vigilatum; an Imperial Navy training ground.
Kasr Partox is next; another fortress world.
St. Josmane's Hope; a military prison planet.
Lastly you have Solar Mariatus, a planet devoted strictly to war material production.

And note that's just the Cadian solar system. You still have the entire Cadian sector to think about--and if you consider the fact that all the Regiments might adopt the name "Cadian Shock Troops" it makes a hell of a lot more sense to consider just how prevalent they are.

To take away regiments would be a fatal flaw for making the Guard "The Guard" again. It's the backbone of the Imperium stuck in the dirt, Billy from Necromunda and Bobby from another Hive world conscripted into service to the Glorious Emperor: A being touted as God; to defend against creatures that would drive most to the brink of insanity.

Regiments were stripped away a long time ago. There is NOTHING separating a Cadian Shock Troop Regiment from a Vostroyan Fancypants Regiment or a Valhallan "We have moustaches!" regiment.

The only thing that really comes into play is the new Mont'ka detachment and relics, and even then while it's supposed to show a strictly Cadian Army Group it can be adapted for any of the other Regiments via "Counts As"(the only characters you cannot take are Nork Deddog, Yarrick, Straken, and Harker) in the case of named characters("This is my Valhallan version of Ursukar Creed; Creed with Moustache!").

I guess the other time it comes into play is with the FW Regiments, but changing C: IG wouldn't really affect them beyond the tanks, Relics, and Orders system since they don't even really use C: IG beyond those.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

Different regiments do that--but there's no rules for different regiments in C: IG.. There haven't been rules for different regiments in C: IG for a loooong time. To pretend that stripping the book down to just Cadians somehow detracts from the ability of one to field alternate regiments is just silly.

C: IG requires you to play make-believe more than other book when it comes down to it. Shifting focus from cramming in legacy characters like Yarrick, Straken, and Harker and legacy units like Rough Riders, Ratlings, and even Ogryn to instead focus on Cadian Shock Troops as a single faction isn't a terrible idea.

Oh, okay, so everyone should just play with the rules of your favorite army because of reasons. Imperial Guard regiments fight differently, Kan. The Valhallan Ice Warriors don't fight along the same lines as the Elysians. It's silly to tell people that they should just be content with the special rules and characters of just one regiment because you like it the most.

Do you think all marine chapters should fight like the Ultramarines?

I dont understand why people are against the idea of other regiments being represented. And of course I do not mean the old way they used to be when you could mix and match styles to make what you wanted. I mean something more along the lines of Chapter tactics. This would be something where you would have multiple regiments represented that fulfill a specific battlefield roll. These may just give special bonuses to specific units but allow the full range of models to be taken, or maybe have greater bonuses or slight alterations of how specific units work while not allowing certain units to be used (like Elysians not being allowed to use Tanks, etc). They could be named after their respective regiments (like chapter tactics) and can be used however you like or simply have simpler names like "combined arms battlegroup" and "Armored Taskforce" etc.. Probably the simpler the better to make sure it dosent get too crazy (and why would they make guard good, right?)

The generic one (ala Ultramarines) would be Cadia, and would probably give a broad bonus on orders and leadership to represent their training. Catachan would be light infantry with limited choices of armor and probably options to get camo cloaks on units and specialize in CC. Vostroyan would give the options of purchasing carapace armor and maybe more access to mastercrafted weapons (like salamanders). Valhallans would get the unending horde trait with conscripts (like in the Vraks book for Renegades). Armageddon Steel Legion would require all infantry mounted in transports and give some sort of bonus for doing so (maybe twinlinked the first time they disembark, or a discount on transport costs). The list goes on and can include DKoK (artillery), Elysians (cheap aircraft, no tanks), Mordians (iron discipline and improved FRFSRF!!!), Savlar Chem-Dogs/Penal Legion (FnP). Each one of these choices would not necessarily invalidate any part of the codex and allow players to play a different play style, much how Ultramarines players stick to their Companies, White Scars enjoy their bikes, and Salamanders love fire and are all rewarded for playing in that particular style (unless you are templar)

Another choice that would be even easier to implement would be a cleaned up and more efficient version of the Renegades lists from IA13/Siege of Vraks wherein you can purchase Demagogue Devotions that fundamentally alter how your army operates, such as master of the horde that has infantry coming back on a 5+. or ordnance tyrant that expands your slots for artillery and lets you shoot your own men, to Reaver that improves your soldiers training (+1 BS/WS and access to hotshots). These could easily mirror many of the above mentions regiments and have fancy names like Infantry Commander, Tough Disciplinarian, Master of Artillery, Special Warfare Commander, and Mechanized Commander.

 Ignatius wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
In terms of Doctrines and multiple types of units/specialties/regiments/blarghiddy:

I'm all in favor of different Regimental Bonuses. The Imperial Guard ISN'T just the Cadians and should in no way be treated as such. Cadia is in one section of space. That's like saying Space Marines should just be "Codex: Ultramarines" which is what the old SM book (and even the new one to a degree) was always joked as.

To take away regiments would be a fatal flaw for making the Guard "The Guard" again. It's the backbone of the Imperium stuck in the dirt, Billy from Necromunda and Bobby from another Hive world conscripted into service to the Glorious Emperor: A being touted as God; to defend against creatures that would drive most to the brink of insanity.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

I'd say a vast majority of the Imperial Guard player base would agree with the idea that different Regiments from different worlds is a good thing.

The thing about it is if they aren't going to really put effort into it, having different regiments and rules for them won't be enough for what you- or me- really want. I want detail and effort put into it to make my army truly "mine". Since that's not going to happen, I'm ok with Cadians being the posterchild, as they are the most "median" of the regiments in the Guard. That is, they aren't too extreme on any side. They make us of all the different kinds of units (except for Rough Riders- a shame really) and can be used as the starting canvas for other regiments one wants to build.

Since the slashing of the doctrine system in the... 3.5(I think?) codex, I've been a fan of the idea of your personal style and the armies character coming out through their appearance, rather than their rules.

And yet, the things that made each of the Regiments with their own models such a unique thing under the Doctrine book was the fact that they had unique rules.

Kanluwen wrote:Shifting focus from cramming in legacy characters like Yarrick, Straken, and Harker and legacy units like Rough Riders, Ratlings, and even Ogryn to instead focus on Cadian Shock Troops as a single faction isn't a terrible idea.

I agree with most things you say, but this is one thing I disagree with you on.

Once again, that's why I keep saying that I want to see Cadian Shock Troops as their own book and Astra Militarum as a faction dissolved beyond anything but a header note(like Adeptus Mechanicus: Skitarii and Adeptus Mechanicus: Cult Mechanicus).

The different regiments that have models right now each should play differently enough to warrant their own book. Not all of them would have access to the same stuff, but that would be the thing that really makes them distinctive.

Let's use the example of Cadian Shock Troops. Their book would be the biggest, mostly from favoritism on my part, but also because of the fact that they are(as you put it) the most generalist of the Guard factions.

HQ:
Company Command Squad and its options
No Priests, no Commissars, no Commissar Lords.
Creed and Kell
Tank Commander
Pask
Techpriest Enginseers

Elite:
Kasrkin Platoon replacing the Scion Platoons. Same statlines and equipment; removal of Deep Strike and addition of Stubborn, Zealot, or Fearless. Special rule: "Anvil of War"--Friendly units with the "Cadian Blood" special rule get a benefit to their Leadership or have Zealot or Stubborn added in. There's room for working it to finesse here.
Ogryn(no Cadian Blood special rule)
Bullgryn(no Cadian Blood special rule)
Armored Sentinels

Troops:
Whiteshields

Infantry Platoon
Infantry Squad
Special Weapons Squad
Heavy Weapons Squad

Veteran Platoon
Veteran Infantry Squad
Veteran Special Weapons Squad
Veteran Heavy Weapons Squad

Everything in Troops gets Cadian Blood

Fast Attack:
The normal stuff barring Rough Riders

Heavy Support:
The normal stuff with the addition of Vultures and Heavy Weapons Platoons.

Let's use the example of Catachans for the next part.

HQ:
Straken
Company Command Squad
Deathworld Veteran Command Squad

Elite:
Ratlings
Deathworld Snipers
Deathworld Veteran Squads
Deathworld Sentinel Squadron
Ogryn(not Bullgryn)

Troops:
Infantry Platoon
Infantry Squad
Special Weapon Squad
Heavy Weapons Squad

Deathworld Veteran Platoon
Deathworld Veteran Squads
Deathworld Veteran Special Weapon Squad
Deathworld Veteran Heavy Weapons Squad

Fast Attack:
Normal choices barring Rough Riders

Heavy Support:
Normal choices barring Deathstrike and Basilisk
Add Deathworld Heavy Weapons Platoon

All the Infantry in the Catachan book, barring Ogryn and Ratlings, get the special rule of "Deathworld Veterans" granting them a bonus.


Things like that would go a long way towards reinvigorating the Imperial Guard and making them interesting and unique.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Regiments were stripped away a long time ago. There is NOTHING separating a Cadian Shock Troop Regiment from a Vostroyan Fancypants Regiment or a Valhallan "We have moustaches!" regiment.

The only thing that really comes into play is the new Mont'ka detachment and relics, and even then while it's supposed to show a strictly Cadian Army Group it can be adapted for any of the other Regiments via "Counts As"(the only characters you cannot take are Nork Deddog, Yarrick, Straken, and Harker) in the case of named characters("This is my Valhallan version of Ursukar Creed; Creed with Moustache!").

I guess the other time it comes into play is with the FW Regiments, but changing C: IG wouldn't really affect them beyond the tanks, Relics, and Orders system since they don't even really use C: IG beyond those.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

Different regiments do that--but there's no rules for different regiments in C: IG.. There haven't been rules for different regiments in C: IG for a loooong time. To pretend that stripping the book down to just Cadians somehow detracts from the ability of one to field alternate regiments is just silly.

C: IG requires you to play make-believe more than other book when it comes down to it. Shifting focus from cramming in legacy characters like Yarrick, Straken, and Harker and legacy units like Rough Riders, Ratlings, and even Ogryn to instead focus on Cadian Shock Troops as a single faction isn't a terrible idea.

Oh, okay, so everyone should just play with the rules of your favorite army because of reasons. Imperial Guard regiments fight differently, Kan. The Valhallan Ice Warriors don't fight along the same lines as the Elysians. It's silly to tell people that they should just be content with the special rules and characters of just one regiment because you like it the most.

Do you read posts before replying to them?

Because you basically just agreed with my post, which detailed the fact that RIGHT NOW, there is nothing beyond the Forge World stuff accurately representing the fact that "Imperial Guard regiments fight differently".

Do you think all marine chapters should fight like the Ultramarines?

I really don't get why you think this is somehow an insult.

As it stands right now, even GW doesn't represent the Chapters that fight differently well.

Raven Guard are all about stealth, guerilla warfare, and precision strikes on the enemy leadership. Basically all of their formations from Kauyon are the complete opposite of stealthy(jetpacks != quiet), they got a single Warlord Trait that emphasizes guerilla warfare, and they really got hosed when it comes to precision strikes on enemy leadership with the emphasis placed upon jetpack units.

@Kan

I did read your post. It said things like:

"And notice that nobody has actually said rebrand the book as "Imperial Guard" while removing everything else. My argument is that at this point in time, until we see anything actually justifying the name "Imperial Guard"? Remove the non-Cadian stuff and just make the book "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops"."


"Different regiments do that--but there's no rules for different regiments in C: IG.. There haven't been rules for different regiments in C: IG for a loooong time. To pretend that stripping the book down to just Cadians somehow detracts from the ability of one to field alternate regiments is just silly.

C: IG requires you to play make-believe more than other book when it comes down to it. Shifting focus from cramming in legacy characters like Yarrick, Straken, and Harker and legacy units like Rough Riders, Ratlings, and even Ogryn to instead focus on Cadian Shock Troops as a single faction isn't a terrible idea. "

If your intention wasn't to promote a paradigm of Cadian-only Guard then you didn't make it very clear.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:

 IronMaster wrote:
In terms of Doctrines and multiple types of units/specialties/regiments/blarghiddy:

I'm all in favor of different Regimental Bonuses. The Imperial Guard ISN'T just the Cadians and should in no way be treated as such. Cadia is in one section of space. That's like saying Space Marines should just be "Codex: Ultramarines" which is what the old SM book (and even the new one to a degree) was always joked as.

To take away regiments would be a fatal flaw for making the Guard "The Guard" again. It's the backbone of the Imperium stuck in the dirt, Billy from Necromunda and Bobby from another Hive world conscripted into service to the Glorious Emperor: A being touted as God; to defend against creatures that would drive most to the brink of insanity.

It's arguably one of the most personally relate able armies in 40k. Different Regiments show the diverse backgrounds of all the different planets within the Imperium and -SHOULD- be focused on, rather than stripped away to just "Cadia."

I'd say a vast majority of the Imperial Guard player base would agree with the idea that different Regiments from different worlds is a good thing.

The thing about it is if they aren't going to really put effort into it, having different regiments and rules for them won't be enough for what you- or me- really want. I want detail and effort put into it to make my army truly "mine". Since that's not going to happen, I'm ok with Cadians being the posterchild, as they are the most "median" of the regiments in the Guard. That is, they aren't too extreme on any side. They make us of all the different kinds of units (except for Rough Riders- a shame really) and can be used as the starting canvas for other regiments one wants to build.

Since the slashing of the doctrine system in the... 3.5(I think?) codex, I've been a fan of the idea of your personal style and the armies character coming out through their appearance, rather than their rules.

And yet, the things that made each of the Regiments with their own models such a unique thing under the Doctrine book was the fact that they had unique rules.

Right, which is why from the elimiation of doctrines on, I've been content with having unique looking models to represent the individuality of my force rather than different rules.

At this point it's the lack of IG models that keeps Doctrines from being brought back. GW doesn't want to make new Tallarns, Mordians, Vallhallans... etc... and in GW's "mind" if it doesn't have models it shouldn't have rules.

I think if we're ever going to see anything like Doctrines again, it'll take a different form. For instance its more likely to be different rules for Infantry Platoon that represent different roles, in the same way Veterans and Storm Troopers do. Or IF platoons were redone as a Formation, then there could be different named variations representative of more specific groups.

The whole "Can not take" this or that, type rules are just not how GW does things now. If you want to play a particular regiment that doesn't have Commissars, its on you not to choose Commissars. I think it'd make sense if GW gave those things as recommendations for specific regiments but it isn't necessary that they be a hard "no" on different units. Some people might enjoy playing their warlord as the exception by be the only trustworthy Catachan commissar who hasn't taken a wrong turn in the jungle.

So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

It still blows my mind how intentionally they're avoiding the license to print money that Legion books would be for utterly pointless stuff like the Crimson Slaughter & Black Legion books...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

I would just ignore it like I do "Astra Militarum." They will always be known as imperial guard to me. I hate cadians, with a passion. Not cadian players, just cadians. I do not fault anyone for playing them, as in most cases that is all that is available in stores. I just think almost every other regiment is more interesting than cadians. Cadians somehow manage to find themselves in nearly every conflict in the galaxy, yet they cannot even secure cadia from chaos. Right...

And before someone says, its just other regiments adorning cadia's equipment etc. No. Literally in countless cases "Cadia" is present all over the galaxy all at once & yet they cannot even secure their borders. Makes absolutely no sense.
Regiments are important not only because they look different, but because they are specialists in different aspects of war. Tallarn - guerrila/hit & run/desert warfare. Steel Legion - Mechanized/effective in toxic & dangerous environments/effective in fighting orks etc. These details are important & for many it is the reason they play imperial guard.

The sad thing is, most of the other regiments look awful. The concept art and especially the ancient miniatures.

Cadians look OK, and it's not like everyone who buys them paints them Cadian colours. My models were painted with grey armour and camo fatigues.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

If they did that I'd complain on every thread about 40k about how Imperial Guard is the worst faction ever and how better they were in 5th. I would also call Skitarii players spoiled and how they nabbed everything that used to belong to Guard.

 Griddlelol wrote:
The sad thing is, most of the other regiments look awful. The concept art and especially the ancient miniatures.

Cadians look OK, and it's not like everyone who buys them paints them Cadian colours. My models were painted with grey armour and camo fatigues.

Yeah I agree. Most of the other regiment's sculpts are largely outdated & need an update. IG players have been asking for this for a long time, but as with Sister of Battle the likelihood of that happening is pretty low. Again I don't fault anyone for playing cadians & I think that some of their models look great. There is tons of room for customization, plus additional options via Forgeworld. I just hate how IG is largely only represented as Cadia. In video games, in almost all white dwarf issues, some novels etc. IG has thousands if not hundreds of thousands of regiments many with their own regalia, tactics, ideology. No need to try & conform all IG players to fit a cookie cutter design. It would be like if tomorrow GW retconned all space marine chapters & Ultramarines were the only space marines.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

Since 2nd ed, they have introduced a number of different regiments, so introducing a new one wouldn't be the worst thing. I'd just be highly skeptical of GW's continued support as so many have been retired. I actually think introducing a new preeminent regiment gives them a lot of latitudes to tweak and fix the IG where differences can be set aside because they're different but then eventually become accepted as the new norm; kinda like how Cadians got White Shields during the Eye of Terror campaign and their rules eventually became Conscripts in the main IG codex... take that sort of thought process and apply it to a greater part of the army.

As far as retconning other regiments to look more like Cadians... I don't think that'd be the worst thing and you could easily envision a intergalactic military attempting some standardization of kit where possible. I'm pretty sure I remember some Tallarn art where they have more of the modern Cadian shoulder pads instead of the 2nd edition shoulder pads. Even Mordians could easily be redone wearing formal uniforms of the Cadian cut. The Imperium is big enough GW could just keep coming up with new regiments... they just don't because their business model has really moved away from fostering a setting and community to drive sales to just pumping out Space Marines and using everything else as punching bags.

On a side note I don't think I'd have as much problem with "Cadians" if the miniatures weren't so out of scale... as pricey as they can be thank god for the 3rd party market making Guard miniatures.

I still think it'd be interesting if GW did something with these concepts:

I remember that art! I was awesome. I wanted to see minis of those guys.
But nope more generic dudes / cadians.

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

If they did that I'd complain on every thread about 40k about how Imperial Guard is the worst faction ever and how better they were in 5th. I would also call Skitarii players spoiled and how they nabbed everything that used to belong to Guard.

In the new fluff, each of Abaddon's Black Crusade shatters an Astra Militarum regiment that GW used to make but don't want to sell anymore. The shattered remains are absorbed by the Cadians who then take over the shattered regiment's duties. This eventually results in all regiments looking like and acting like Cadians but also leaves the Cadians spread thin all over the galaxy, leaving the Cadian Gate dangerously unprotected, just as planned!

Dangerously unprotected, but Abaddon still fails to get through, ofc.

Commissar Benny wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

I would just ignore it like I do "Astra Militarum." They will always be known as imperial guard to me. I hate cadians, with a passion. Not cadian players, just cadians. I do not fault anyone for playing them, as in most cases that is all that is available in stores. I just think almost every other regiment is more interesting than cadians. Cadians somehow manage to find themselves in nearly every conflict in the galaxy, yet they cannot even secure cadia from chaos. Right...

You know that after Cadia fell they effectively turned back the clock on the background, correct? There's only one real book set post-13th Black Crusade that even mentions Cadia and that's "Cadian Blood".

And quite frankly, they'd held Cadia for how long since the Horus Heresy? It took the biggest Black Crusade the Imperium ever faced for Chaos to gain control of Cadia--and it's not like Chaos has full control of it.

And before someone says, its just other regiments adorning cadia's equipment etc. No. Literally in countless cases "Cadia" is present all over the galaxy all at once & yet they cannot even secure their borders. Makes absolutely no sense.

You do know that 40k isn't a linear timeline, right? They jump back and forth in the timeline quite often when it comes to portraying things.

Regiments are important not only because they look different, but because they are specialists in different aspects of war. Tallarn - guerrila/hit & run/desert warfare. Steel Legion - Mechanized/effective in toxic & dangerous environments/effective in fighting orks etc. These details are important & for many it is the reason they play imperial guard.

Every Regiment is effective in fighting Orks. They're Orks, not Eldar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So what do you think the chances are that they'll retcon the fluff to make it so all the famous regiments actually looked like Cadians all along except maybe with different color schemes?

Or maybe they can create a new regiment that no one's ever heard of or cares about. And then they can give that new regiment their own supplement with formations and relics and the works. They could be the Crimson Guard. Or something like that.

If they did that I'd complain on every thread about 40k about how Imperial Guard is the worst faction ever and how better they were in 5th. I would also call Skitarii players spoiled and how they nabbed everything that used to belong to Guard.

What's funny is it seems like everyone forgets this blurb from the Doctrines Codex.

Cadia has always been a fortress world, charged with guarding the entrance to the Eye of Terror. Its population are all destined for a military life; the birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous. Cadian Regiments are highly disciplined, make excellent shots and use elite shock troops to lead their attacks. Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Commissar Benny wrote:
It would be like if tomorrow GW retconned all space marine chapters & Ultramarines were the only space marines.

That's not really a great comparison.

The difference between Ultramarines and Raven Guard are their paint jobs and the iconography on their shoulder pads.
The difference between a Korpsman and a Tallarn is much, much more involved.

 Selym wrote:
Dangerously unprotected, but Abaddon still fails to get through, ofc.

Because a single Mart Sue stands there and holds them all at bay.

 Kanluwen wrote:

What's funny is it seems like everyone forgets this blurb from the Doctrines Codex.

Cadia has always been a fortress world, charged with guarding the entrance to the Eye of Terror. Its population are all destined for a military life; the birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous. Cadian Regiments are highly disciplined, make excellent shots and use elite shock troops to lead their attacks. Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.

Even with that being the case, I don't see GW giving IG doctrine like rules without distinct miniatures to push with the rules. GW uses Raven Guard to push scouts and assault squads, White Scars push bike squads... etc SM have a bunch of different stuff that can be used in a troop role. IG don't. So the variation in play style that IG deserve doesn't necessarily have models to sell with it. Even now between IG veterans, Infantry Platoons, conscripts, and previously penal legions... GW expects us to use the exact same kit for all of them... similarly with the regiment command squad and platoon command squad... the heavy weapon team and heavy weapon squads. GW has made it easy to do more regiments by having as many redundant kit unit combinations, but without distinct units and models to elevate through regimental rules GW just won't give IG any.

I think the best hope for ever getting Doctrines back is if GW decided to either redo the Cadian models in such a way that they could more easily sell add-on to represent different regiments or if GW actually made distinct kits for Veterans and Conscripts where those models could serve double duty as distinct regiment... such as conscripts having bits that might allow them to portray a light infantry regiment and veterans the ability to portray grenadiers/heavy infantry... whether they're styled cadian or not they're distinct. Then GW will have models that they feel it can promote by producing the army wide rules.

 aka_mythos wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

What's funny is it seems like everyone forgets this blurb from the Doctrines Codex.

Cadia has always been a fortress world, charged with guarding the entrance to the Eye of Terror. Its population are all destined for a military life; the birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous. Cadian Regiments are highly disciplined, make excellent shots and use elite shock troops to lead their attacks. Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.

Even with that being the case, I don't see GW giving IG doctrine like rules without distinct miniatures to push with the rules. GW uses Raven Guard to push scouts and assault squads, White Scars push bike squads... etc SM have a bunch of different stuff that can be used in a troop role. IG don't. So the variation in play style that IG deserve doesn't necessarily have models to sell with it. Even now between IG veterans, Infantry Platoons, conscripts, and previously penal legions... GW expects us to use the exact same kit for all of them... similarly with the regiment command squad and platoon command squad... the heavy weapon team and heavy weapon squads. GW has made it easy to do more regiments by having as many redundant kit unit combinations, but without distinct units and models to elevate through regimental rules GW just won't give IG any.

I think the best hope for ever getting Doctrines back is if GW decided to either redo the Cadian models in such a way that they could more easily sell add-on to represent different regiments or if GW actually made distinct kits for Veterans and Conscripts where those models could serve double duty as distinct regiment... such as conscripts having bits that might allow them to portray a light infantry regiment and veterans the ability to portray grenadiers/heavy infantry... whether they're styled cadian or not they're distinct. Then GW will have models that they feel it can promote by producing the army wide rules.

What, you mean if GW would stop fanjerking to their Space Marine porn and actually give the Imperial Guard players something that we have been after now for over half a decade? I wish, but sadly we are unlikely to see any new IG kits beyond yet another ugly as feth overpriced transport or the 'downsyndrome baby ogres' Ogryn/Bullgryn kit that is, yet again, overpriced in both points and pounds.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Dangerously unprotected, but Abaddon still fails to get through, ofc.

Because a single Mart Sue stands there and holds them all at bay.

still pretty impressive for a guy without any arms!

But to the earlier stuff about different models and factions... take a page out of the ork book we have speed freaks, goffs, snake bites etc. just model them and paint them differently, sometimes it means buying separate bits or green stuffing and plasticcard things to make them more like what they should be. Eldar have to do it with just paint jobs to see Iyendan or san jai (spelling both wrong I am sure) among other factions. all xeno races are treated the same and we have to deal with it. a lot of chaos and chaos space marines are th same way. how do I make my Demon prince os slaneesh look different from my nurgle one (hint it involves silicone) as for rules though GW has been doing a good job of responding on their facebook page so hit em up with an idea for specific regiment rules (would not hold my breath on models though)

 Griddlelol wrote:
The sad thing is, most of the other regiments look awful. The concept art and especially the ancient miniatures.

Cadians look OK, and it's not like everyone who buys them paints them Cadian colours. My models were painted with grey armour and camo fatigues.

speak for yourself ... imho cadians look awful and vostroyans are the best because i like the anachronistic style!

The Cadian kits are passable....onky if you replace the heads. The heads are absurd and they all have expressions on their faces that look like theyre having major issues with constipation, not to mention weirdly big heads.

With respirator or 3rd party heads, they arent ao bad. That said, the old Steel Legion and Vostroyans I think look better.

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Cadian kits are passable....onky if you replace the heads. The heads are absurd and they all have expressions on their faces that look like theyre having major issues with constipation, not to mention weirdly big heads.

With respirator or 3rd party heads, they arent ao bad. That said, the old Steel Legion and Vostroyans I think look better.

Don not get me started :(

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Cadian kits are passable....onky if you replace the heads. The heads are absurd and they all have expressions on their faces that look like theyre having major issues with constipation, not to mention weirdly big heads.

With respirator or 3rd party heads, they arent ao bad. That said, the old Steel Legion and Vostroyans I think look better.

Don not get me started :(

These.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Cadian kits are passable....onky if you replace the heads. The heads are absurd and they all have expressions on their faces that look like theyre having major issues with constipation, not to mention weirdly big heads.

With respirator or 3rd party heads, they arent ao bad. That said, the old Steel Legion and Vostroyans I think look better.

Don not get me started :(

I actually really like the cadian kits beside the helmets. These are much better

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The Cadian kits are passable....onky if you replace the heads. The heads are absurd and they all have expressions on their faces that look like theyre having major issues with constipation, not to mention weirdly big heads.

With respirator or 3rd party heads, they arent ao bad. That said, the old Steel Legion and Vostroyans I think look better.

Don not get me started :(

These.

Ha, those were my submission to the liberty and union league that Wargames Factory ran...8 or 9 years ago

Ive got like 8 boxes that Ive never had time to assemble and paint...

Both of them look good, though I do prefer the 3rd party ones.
They have that look - both Sci Fi and retro at the same time.

I've been thinking about buying some of Victoria Miniature's Arcadian Line, they look similar enough to Cadians that they won't raise too many eyebrows, and imo they just look a lot better.

 War Kitten wrote:
I've been thinking about buying some of Victoria Miniature's Arcadian Line, they look similar enough to Cadians that they won't raise too many eyebrows, and imo they just look a lot better.

And I can vouch for the quality of the resin. Some of the crispest and cleanest casts I've had the pleasure of working with. I've got a bunch of Tannenberg sitting around (mostly unassembled...one of these days...) and they are fantastic.

 War Kitten wrote:
I've been thinking about buying some of Victoria Miniature's Arcadian Line, they look similar enough to Cadians that they won't raise too many eyebrows, and imo they just look a lot better.

They are everything the GW's Cadians should be.

 War Kitten wrote:
I've been thinking about buying some of Victoria Miniature's Arcadian Line, they look similar enough to Cadians that they won't raise too many eyebrows, and imo they just look a lot better.

Expensive but worth it.

Cadian figs are old and passed time rathr well.

But the thing is, the metal ones (vostroyan, steel legion, etc) are older, better looking, realistic and have better poses and more detail. that's the real issue imho. The old arse kits are just plane better.

but on OP's subject, IG are average. They do well vs older codex (jeez, i wonder why) but can still hold the line if bunkered up and not playing a cheezy space marine or eldar list.

Both of those converted guard look fantastic. I wish I had the modelling skills to do that, but I always fall flat when it comes to conversions.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Both of those converted guard look fantastic. I wish I had the modelling skills to do that, but I always fall flat when it comes to conversions.

The greatcoat guys in the first set of pictures are actually out of the box Wargames Factory Shock Troopers, no conversion necessary for that look, ive used them extensively to expand my Steel Legion but I swapped the arms for standard cadian arms, which require no special conversions, they just glue right on! (check my gallery for examples). Unfortunately the company is no longer around and while they used to be dirt dirt cheap they are getting harder and harder to get a hold of (they also make a great torso to mount all those spare skitarii ranger heads/arms from your Vanguard squads, I doubled my troops from all the boxes I picked up!)

I agree that the cadians need to be redone, I dont actually hate their style, although their heads are quite big. I would like to have a greater variety of poses and add in some alternate options, like being able to make Vet squads or infantry squads out of the box. Kind of like how they fixed up firewarriors to make that new box a real nice, versatile kit.

Pretty easy to make Conscripts/Veterans out of standard GW bits. I stocked up on Cadian Defence Force boxes when I built my guard army. The backpacks from the HWS plus the extra 'grizzled' heads that come with tanks/command squads make for pretty rugged looking heavy veterans. Regular bro's just get the webbing belt, conscripts get nothing.

I agree the kit looks a little dated but being a CSM player as well I'm used to playing armies that GW has long discarded in favour of differentiating between winged blood-drops and winged swords on shoulderpads.