Just wanted to ask you guys about the IG and a trend I have been noticing lately since I started playing them. Earlier this week, I went to a different store that I recently found out about and when I went there a lot of the 40k players were surprised that I was fielding Imperial Guard. To a lot of them, they feel that the Imperial Guard are a bad army right now as they need a major update to be competitive in this Edition. This of course lead to a debate and by the end of it, I couldn't do much to convince them despite winning 2 games. And this isn't the first time I have gone to play games and my opponents have made that same comment of me playing IG when they are an army lacking a lot atm.
This is my personal take on the IG. The Imperial Guard can still be a competitive Army in this Edition and compared to others, we still have some bite and we can still hold our own. However, we are currently falling behind compared to most of the top-tier armies at the moment and as it stands, we lack any real strong formations that are both flexible and effective atm, as most other armies have formations that completely outstrip ours. Need a lot of Point changes to actually reflect the cost of various units and tanks as many of them are over costed for what we get, bring back some special rules like Lumbering Behemoth, and could use an update on various formations and lists, especially the Forgeworld Death Korps of Krieg and Elysian lists. Another big change that we need is consistency and a unified set of rules for all IG armies, both FW and Standard. One if the biggest issues I have with the Imperial Guard is that there are numerous Army lists and Formations with different point values and rules and they all need to be updated to where they are all on the same page.
Not saying this to complain. But I can't deny that when it comes to Tournament play and even in fun games, those few like me who play Imperial Guard just can't seem to do well and things usually end bad for us. And the more and more I play, I an kinda understand what my opponents are referencing as while I love the IG and they are a fun army to play, I do feel that they are lacking in some way compared to other 40k armies. Not sure if it has something related to what I said above, if its about a rule issue or the lack of effective formations, but I am starting to see why many people believe the IG are falling behind. Have any other IG players experience this lately? Or if you play another army, do any of these thoughts reflect on what the problem with the IG is atm? Appreciate the feedback because while I do love my IG a lot, I might put them on hold and focus on building a more competitive list. Not because I am frustrated or upset but I play in a very Power-List type of meta for the most part and I would like to hold my own for once in games in a tournament. Kinda sucks when the only award I can get in a Tournament Constantly is the Good Sportsmanship Award lol.
It also doesn't help that most tournaments use restrictions like Detachment Limits that further weaken the weaker factions, and just force the already-strong factions to use slightly different builds to get their zero fun deathstars on the table.
Tournament results show IG showing exceedingly poorly, but not at the absolute bottom, they could potentially be considered the "best of the worst". They are not competitive and can only hold their own against older armies.
The army has several issues.
First, the core rules really are against them. Non skimmer vehicles have major problems and thats the bread and butter of the army. IG have no MC or Deathstar units, and the army as a whole has mobility issues. Likewise' scale issues are a problem, and relatively common units can withstand literally hundreds of models worth of Lasgun fire and still not die. Firepower in other armies has exploded, and there are generalist armies that can handily outshoot the shooting oriented IG. Then if course IG dont have the insane formations and freebies of other armies. Most fundamentally, the army has extremely poor internal balance and is seemingly designes around a 5E paradigm despite having been released weeks before 7th.
I've had IG for a long time, and unfortunately they are not very good in this edition. I've found that the only build that can keep up with my meta is Pask, a ton of melta vets in chimeras, multiple vendettas, and a few wyverns.
Tbh I've been getting pretty tired of Guard lately, which is why I'm expanding my Daemons army. There's a serious lack of internal balance in the codex, and even the good units aren't great.
I wouldn't say they are lacking as such it's just the thing the army is good at (a horde shooting list) no one really wants to play due to how long the movement and shooting phase would take
And on top of it, the new Mont'ka formations require:
(there's hyperbole here)
9000 infantry = $25,000
Several Super Heavies = $25,000
All the Sentinels = $25,000
All the Leman Russes = $25,000
All the Valkyries/Vendettas = $25,000
They're pricing me out of my army.
EDIT: And for those who say "First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!" and putting out 150 lasgun shots is powerful: It's not. It's gonna take out like 3 regular marines, maybe 1 terminator, maybe .5 of a necron.
I'd like some sort of "Massed Fire" rule, where 10 lasgun shots can be traded in for a single S7 AP3 shot or something.
Yeah, lasguns are pretty useless, and with units like TWC's or Wraiths that can take upwards of a thousand lasgun shots to bring down (literally), or nearly thirty just to kill a single Necron Warrior, the game has outscaled the relevancy of such weapons.
ziggurattt wrote:EDIT: And for those who say "First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!" and putting out 150 lasgun shots is powerful: It's not. It's gonna take out like 3 regular marines, maybe 1 terminator, maybe .5 of a necron.
Statistically:
150 lasgun shots would take out: 150 X 1/2 X 1/3 X 1/3 (150/12) marines
or
150 X 1/2 X 1/3 X 1/6 (150/36) terminators.
If you only roll 6s and your opponent only rolls 1s, however, that's a different story.
I do completely agree that IG vs. marines isn't a fun game, though.
As a marine player, I end up grossly outnumbered, outgunned and on the receiving end of WAY too many pie plates.
As a marine player, I end up grossly outnumbered, outgunned and on the receiving end of WAY too many pie plates.
You're playing marines wrong m8 Having been IG against multiple SM forces, and been BT against a few IG forces, I can safely say that it is well within your capacity to table most IG lists by the end of T3.
Blasts just arent what they used to be. Against MC's, thy can only ever do 1 wound, and the MC's often still get their saves, likewise most death star units, while cover and invul saves are increasingly common for other units that mitigate blast weapon power. Blasts against vehicles are also leas useful in the same manner as things like Vanquisher cannons because multishot high ROF weapons and weapons that ignore AV are more effecrive tank killers through HP stripping.
Pain4Pleasure wrote:But they should be. So the mute point isn't mute, yours is
1. Necrons and Tau don't even have the option, nor do Black Templar.
2. If I don't want to use psykers, I shouldn't have to.
Period. End of story.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Selym wrote:You're playing marines wrong m8 Having been IG against multiple SM forces, and been BT against a few IG forces, I can safely say that it is well within your capacity to table most IG lists by the end of T3.
If you are using thunderfire cannons and drop pods, the IG player might lose.
Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.
That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.
Vaktathi wrote: Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.
That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.
Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.
Selym wrote:You're playing marines wrong m8 Having been IG against multiple SM forces, and been BT against a few IG forces, I can safely say that it is well within your capacity to table most IG lists by the end of T3.
If you are using thunderfire cannons and drop pods, the IG player might lose.
Tactical marines in rhinos?
Not so much.
As BT I've had easy af wins with these sorts of things:
LR Crusader with Chainsword Friends
Drop Pod Dreadnought with heavy flamer (other options irrelevant)
Plasmacannon Devastators (They're just funny. Not competitive, but they are funny.)
Hammernators, any deployment style.
My Ultramarine bro/mortal enemy has used:
Scout MSU with krak grenades and meltabombs to kill tanks
Rhinos (Rhiiinoooes) with Tac marines for bolter spam vs 5+ saves, with some 'nades in case of vehicle spam. Regular flamer use.
Shooty Dreads
Lascannon Predators
The UM guy is still acting like this is 5E, but still tears up IG in every battle he's ever had against them. Spams a lot of methul bawkses, and IG seem to be the only army right now that can't do efficient ranged anti-tank.
Vaktathi wrote: Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.
That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.
Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.
Vaktathi wrote: Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.
That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.
Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.
psyker support, biker units, centurions, storm ravens, any number of absurd formations/detachment bonuses, etc. IG generally have poor answers to any of these.
TFC's and Drop Pods are just the EZ-Mode I Win buttons against IG, they're not mandatory at all. If you auto-lose to IG without them, I'm not sure what to say.
Stay on topic please guys. And you all make good points, sadly it's the reason why I am considering shelving my IG until theyou get an update. I run a Mechanized Vet list with anywhere from 4x to 7x Chimeras, and then throw in LR Variants and Flyers to support. Has do e alright been against the top-tier armies it struggles really bad. Have won more then I lost but my opponents haven't always been amazing and I have gotten lucky a lot more then I should of.
Even BA don't auto lose to guard. They are at a slight disadvantage is all. With vanilla marines, you have no excuses. You don't need invis, either. Any old captain with artificer can tank a lot of blasts for you.
IG can make lasguns relevant again with primaris divination psykers. It's a bummer to have to do that, but it's an option.
The Psykana division is essentially the "super duper discount" version of the librarius anyhow. Just take it and get all those sweet 2+ twin link roll-offs.
The big problem though is that a great number of the IGs best weapons simply do not care about being twin linked...because they already are. You know, stuff like Wyverns, Pask (who's almost there with PE), rapier batteries...
If you wanna pump up the gunline jams though, the cadian detachment actually doesn't work that bad.
Core: tank formation, take a ton of Vanquishers for anti tank.
Aux: Emp's wrath with basilisk, wyvern, manticore.
Aux: Psykana division rolling on divination
Fortification: VSG.
Then you just twin-link as much of your stuff as possible, issue ignore-cover orders wherever you need, and try to blast away whatever you can. Also, you get like 9 psychic dice to dispel invisibility, so you have at least a bit more of a fighting chance.
This topic has been popping up a lot lately. IG suffer from two things.
The first is horrible internal balance. The IG codex is kind of designed with a balancing force in mind. The idea being that your have an answer to everything while being supported by your basic troop unit. For example, there are multple types of artillery, tanks, and flyers that call alll fuffil a specific niche. The issue here is that some of these options are down right useless due to the way things are priced. Hellhound variants are worthless, many russ variants are not good, its pretty much Wyvern or nothing right now. Stormtroopers are over costed and over shadowed by Veterans. Tanky units like Ogryn types are way over priced. More and more an IG play is forced to rely on old standby units like Infantry platoons, Wyvern, and maybe a Russ. With the exception of the Wyvern, none of these options are that great. And some of the ones that were got hit with the nerf bat.
The other problem is the more important one. The current game design mechanics go against the IG's playstyle. There are three main factors you are looking for in the game now, that is mobility, durability, and firepower (in that order). All IG really has is firepower, but that no longer really wins games. In some cases, it isn't even enough to offset the durability of other races. Many other factions have also had a serious upshift in their own firepower. Hordes just plain don't work any more. It is far too easy to wipe out multiple units of infantry in a single turn with many races now. I have mentioned in another thread the AV problem before which is a big one. Vehicles mechanics make anything without a save kind of worthless. It is still pretty easy to deal with high AV units, significantly more easy that medium AV jinking ones. All our tanks are far outshined by those platforms which often times are cheaper and more useful. All of are transports are slow, overpriced, and easy to kill as well. That makes it hard for us to get points in an edition where you really need to be scoring all the time. And we don't have any OP deathstars or MCs to hide behind.
When I play my IG, in many cases it is frustrating because most of my units simply under perform when I compare them price wise to other options in other books. The only real power unit gimmick to rely on is the Wyvern and the Artillery Carriages, but that only gets you so far. I feel like the book was pretty decent when it came out, but ever since the change to the more OP books, our codex has really lagged behind.
Vaktathi wrote: Tac marines in rhinos have a hars time because of the vehicle rules not allowing assaults out of stationary transports. It used to be one of the most effecrice anti IG sm builds since it was competing on a pretty godd attrition level with the IG.
That said, SM's as a whole really have no issues dealing with IG as an army with the tools at their disposal, psykers or no.
Only if you take into account drop pods and thunderfire cannons. If my list doesn't have those things, I lose against IG.
Then you're either playing your Marines wrong or the IG player is cheating, because IG are not that great.
Not Age of Emprah, but a meta reset where the powercreep is removed - allowing normal troop weapons to actually do something.
This right here is one of my biggest complaints with 40k. I run a light infantry regiment, specifically because I think the coolest most badass thing in the world is just a guardsman and his rifle. Bolters are useless, and lasguns are worth absolutely nothing.
nedTCM wrote: This topic has been popping up a lot lately. IG suffer from two things.
The first is horrible internal balance. The IG codex is kind of designed with a balancing force in mind. The idea being that your have an answer to everything while being supported by your basic troop unit. For example, there are multple types of artillery, tanks, and flyers that call alll fuffil a specific niche. The issue here is that some of these options are down right useless due to the way things are priced. Hellhound variants are worthless, many russ variants are not good, its pretty much Wyvern or nothing right now. Stormtroopers are over costed and over shadowed by Veterans. Tanky units like Ogryn types are way over priced. More and more an IG play is forced to rely on old standby units like Infantry platoons, Wyvern, and maybe a Russ. With the exception of the Wyvern, none of these options are that great. And some of the ones that were got hit with the nerf bat.
The other problem is the more important one. The current game design mechanics go against the IG's playstyle. There are three main factors you are looking for in the game now, that is mobility, durability, and firepower (in that order). All IG really has is firepower, but that no longer really wins games. In some cases, it isn't even enough to offset the durability of other races. Many other factions have also had a serious upshift in their own firepower. Hordes just plain don't work any more. It is far too easy to wipe out multiple units of infantry in a single turn with many races now. I have mentioned in another thread the AV problem before which is a big one. Vehicles mechanics make anything without a save kind of worthless. It is still pretty easy to deal with high AV units, significantly more easy that medium AV jinking ones. All our tanks are far outshined by those platforms which often times are cheaper and more useful. All of are transports are slow, overpriced, and easy to kill as well. That makes it hard for us to get points in an edition where you really need to be scoring all the time. And we don't have any OP deathstars or MCs to hide behind.
When I play my IG, in many cases it is frustrating because most of my units simply under perform when I compare them price wise to other options in other books. The only real power unit gimmick to rely on is the Wyvern and the Artillery Carriages, but that only gets you so far. I feel like the book was pretty decent when it came out, but ever since the change to the more OP books, our codex has really lagged behind.
Couldn't have said it better myself mate. In all honesty, if they where do just even a point decrease for most of the units in the IG Army, then that alone would help imo. Granted rules-wise we would still be at a disadvantage, but at least this way we could use more points on other things in our army to give us a better chance. IG are not supposed to be super powerful, however I do believe they need to do something to make us on par with other Formations and Armies. Making everything cheaper and changing a few rules alone would be a big boost. Plus it would be nice if FW would actually update the DKOK and Elysian lists for a change instead of making excuses.
Now I could be wrong, so some one correct me and forgive my folly.
But IG are meant to be the gun line army that runs from cover to cover, but the problem is tau does it better, and the thing that was supposed to set them apart was their mech devision which again with tau having so much more powerful shooting troops, what's the point.
Iirc at one point when flyers first came into the game, Valkyries were super op
Backspacehacker wrote: Now I could be wrong, so some one correct me and forgive my folly.
But IG are meant to be the gun line army that runs from cover to cover, but the problem is tau does it better, and the thing that was supposed to set them apart was their mech devision which again with tau having so much more powerful shooting troops, what's the point.
Iirc at one point when flyers first came into the game, Valkyries were super op
It was the Vendetta, and that was mostly when they were Fast Skimmers (when they could Scout up, disgorge melta troops within 6" double pen range turn 1 and then immediately provide triple lascannon fire support, all on turn 1). The normal Valkyrie sadly has never been terribly impressive.
The big IG thing over Tau was large blasts, barrage and lots of infantry. None of these things are really good in 7th ed, compared to a lot oh mid-high direct shots.
IG are in a really bad way right now. I've gone over why in previous threads spanning 70 pages as to why but I'll summarize:
- Just about everything in the codex needs a points reduction. Some units massively so.
- Elite choices are all garbage. Stormtroopers are "ok", but still overpriced for what they do. Ogryn/Bullgryn need a massive points reduction, better close combat special rules like FNP to represent their thick skin (which is in the lore) & ripper guns need to add +1S/Rending.
- Vehicles in general this edition are just bad. MC are better in every way. Since armor is IG's bread & butter yeah it doesn't bode well.
- The backbone of the guard "guardsmen" are just bad. Right now they cost too much for what they do not do. Either they need to have their firepower increased, or points reduced even more per model. They are a tax on the army atm.
- Tons of units within the codex that never get used because their rules are terrible
- Conscripts should not require a infantry platoon to field. Should just be a standard troops choice.
I could go on, but honestly I am just exhausted from trying to bring this to GW's attention. For years we have been trying to get them to fix the glaring issues within the codex & edition after edition they keep releasing sh*t rules for units that desperately need a buff. Like literally 90%+ of IG battle reports you see online, IG gets its ass handed to them. While I fair a little better in our area, its so ridiculously obvious that IG has major issues that need to be addressed.
1a) Lasguns get moved to two profiles. 30" Rapid Fire for a S4 AP5 shot('high power') and 30" Salvo 2/4 for a S3 AP- shot('standard power').
1b) Special and Heavy Weapon prices go down significantly.
Sniper Rifles become Free. Flamers and Grenade Launchers remain 5 points. Hotshot Volley Guns stay where they are. Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, and Demolition Charges get reduced to 5, 10, 10 points respectively.
Heavy Weapons--Mortars become free. Autocannon or Heavy Bolters get reduced to 5 points. Missile Launchers get Flakk rolled in and reduced to 10 points. Lascannons get reduced from 20 points to 10 points.
2) Bullgryn and Ogryn become purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon structure. Prices go down by 10%, minimum, for both versions. Grenadier Gauntlets gain a rule allowing them to Overwatch.
3a) All Guard non-Flyer Vehicle Squadrons gain the "Wall of Steel" special rule. As long as a Guard Vehicle Squadron numbers 2 or more vehicles, glancing hits and penetrating hits must be rerolled. Vehicles with Extra Armour subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls and the Penetrating Hits table, vehicles with Track Guards subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls as well.
3b) All Guard infantry units gain the "Mobile Cover" rule. Infantry models from your Imperial Guard army within 6" of any Imperial Guard vehicle with the "Tank" classification gains a 4+ Cover Save. This save cannot be removed unless the firing unit has directly targeted the infantry units. Yes, this does mean that "Ignores Cover" would not work for Tau, unless the firing unit has direct LOS.
4) Scions get a price drop and Scion Officers gain the Militarum Tempestus Orders. Scions gain the special rule "Independent Operators", disallowing them from being targeted by Guard Officers without the Senior Officer special rule for Orders.
5) Imperial Guard Heavy Weapon Teams gain the "Emplaced Weapon" special rule, allowing Heavy Weapon Teams with weapons that have the "Blast" profile to be used in Overwatch shooting attacks.
6) Imperial Guard Conscript Squads gain the "We hold them here, we hold them now!" special rule. If an enemy unit is in combat with a Conscript Squad, the remainder of the Guard army can fire into the combat with no penalties.
I've got more like that floating around, but that's a writing exercise for the morning in and of itself.
My armoured company list still does reasonably well at times, even if it is far from competive. It cuts out the most useless part of the AM codex (the infantry) and not everyone is prepared to face that much tanks. Still, most competitve armies (read Eldar, Tau, Necrons, Space Marines) have no problem dealing with AV14 spam. In fact, it usually turns into a roflstomp. Vehicles are seriously underpowered in this edition, which is the primary problem of the IG along with its firepower being outmatched and infantry hordes becoming useless in the face of the firepower competitive factions can put out. That is all three of the IG's traditional strenghts being negated or outmatched by other faction.
Still, CSM have it worse...
Kanluwen wrote: 1a) Lasguns get moved to two profiles. 30" Rapid Fire for a S4 AP5 shot('high power') and 30" Salvo 2/4 for a S3 AP- shot('standard power').
1b) Special and Heavy Weapon prices go down significantly. Sniper Rifles become Free. Flamers and Grenade Launchers remain 5 points. Hotshot Volley Guns stay where they are. Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, and Demolition Charges get reduced to 5, 10, 10 points respectively. Heavy Weapons--Mortars become free. Autocannon or Heavy Bolters get reduced to 5 points. Missile Launchers get Flakk rolled in and reduced to 10 points. Lascannons get reduced from 20 points to 10 points.
2) Bullgryn and Ogryn become purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon structure. Prices go down by 10%, minimum, for both versions. Grenadier Gauntlets gain a rule allowing them to Overwatch.
3a) All Guard non-Flyer Vehicle Squadrons gain the "Wall of Steel" special rule. As long as a Guard Vehicle Squadron numbers 2 or more vehicles, glancing hits and penetrating hits must be rerolled. Vehicles with Extra Armour subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls and the Penetrating Hits table, vehicles with Track Guards subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls as well.
3b) All Guard infantry units gain the "Mobile Cover" rule. Infantry models from your Imperial Guard army within 6" of any Imperial Guard vehicle with the "Tank" classification gains a 4+ Cover Save. This save cannot be removed unless the firing unit has directly targeted the infantry units. Yes, this does mean that "Ignores Cover" would not work for Tau, unless the firing unit has direct LOS.
4) Scions get a price drop and Scion Officers gain the Militarum Tempestus Orders. Scions gain the special rule "Independent Operators", disallowing them from being targeted by Guard Officers without the Senior Officer special rule for Orders.
5) Imperial Guard Heavy Weapon Teams gain the "Emplaced Weapon" special rule, allowing Heavy Weapon Teams with weapons that have the "Blast" profile to be used in Overwatch shooting attacks.
6) Imperial Guard Conscript Squads gain the "We hold them here, we hold them now!" special rule. If an enemy unit is in combat with a Conscript Squad, the remainder of the Guard army can fire into the combat with no penalties.
I've got more like that floating around, but that's a writing exercise for the morning in and of itself.
I agree with you all over on these! Guard need just a little oomph to make them good again!
Heres some of my thoughts:
1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.
2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.
3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.
Kanluwen wrote: 1a) Lasguns get moved to two profiles. 30" Rapid Fire for a S4 AP5 shot('high power') and 30" Salvo 2/4 for a S3 AP- shot('standard power').
1b) Special and Heavy Weapon prices go down significantly.
Sniper Rifles become Free. Flamers and Grenade Launchers remain 5 points. Hotshot Volley Guns stay where they are. Meltaguns, Plasma Guns, and Demolition Charges get reduced to 5, 10, 10 points respectively.
Heavy Weapons--Mortars become free. Autocannon or Heavy Bolters get reduced to 5 points. Missile Launchers get Flakk rolled in and reduced to 10 points. Lascannons get reduced from 20 points to 10 points.
2) Bullgryn and Ogryn become purchased as part of the Infantry Platoon structure. Prices go down by 10%, minimum, for both versions. Grenadier Gauntlets gain a rule allowing them to Overwatch.
3a) All Guard non-Flyer Vehicle Squadrons gain the "Wall of Steel" special rule. As long as a Guard Vehicle Squadron numbers 2 or more vehicles, glancing hits and penetrating hits must be rerolled. Vehicles with Extra Armour subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls and the Penetrating Hits table, vehicles with Track Guards subtract 1 from the armor penetration rolls as well.
3b) All Guard infantry units gain the "Mobile Cover" rule. Infantry models from your Imperial Guard army within 6" of any Imperial Guard vehicle with the "Tank" classification gains a 4+ Cover Save. This save cannot be removed unless the firing unit has directly targeted the infantry units. Yes, this does mean that "Ignores Cover" would not work for Tau, unless the firing unit has direct LOS.
4) Scions get a price drop and Scion Officers gain the Militarum Tempestus Orders. Scions gain the special rule "Independent Operators", disallowing them from being targeted by Guard Officers without the Senior Officer special rule for Orders.
5) Imperial Guard Heavy Weapon Teams gain the "Emplaced Weapon" special rule, allowing Heavy Weapon Teams with weapons that have the "Blast" profile to be used in Overwatch shooting attacks.
6) Imperial Guard Conscript Squads gain the "We hold them here, we hold them now!" special rule. If an enemy unit is in combat with a Conscript Squad, the remainder of the Guard army can fire into the combat with no penalties.
I've got more like that floating around, but that's a writing exercise for the morning in and of itself.
I agree with you all over on these! Guard need just a little oomph to make them good again!
Heres some of my thoughts:
1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.
2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.
3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.
Get rid of the Mechanized Infantry Armies then I would stop playing IG all together lol. Overall, most people can agree that atm, the Imperial Guard are truggling as bad as they are due to: Over-Costed units, Bad Units that no one uses, outdated rules, crappy formations, and bad core composition in general. In short, the IG are in need of a major update across the board, which goes for both the Standard IG, as well as the Forgeworld Lists in the Death Korps of the Krieg, Elysians, and the Armored Battle Group. They can be competitive in fun, casual games, but in tournament play or against any of the stronger lists, it is a uphill battle from the get go. Believe that pretty such sums everything up mates lol. Love my IG but after building what I currently have, I will most likely hold off finishing them until they get a much needed update.
I sold my guard army. Mainly because I don't like the way things are heading, that is, barely updating anything, massively over-costed units (seriously, you would have thought they'd want to sell Ogryns for once).
Finally, tanks just aren't what they used to be. I remember when my Leman Russes were only afraid of Melta and Str 9+. Now it feels like they can just be chipped down slowly making them feel vastly over costed.
Mechanised infantry is why I got into guard in the first place, that's now useless, so there's no point in me playing them.
(It also helps that I had so many models I painted about 10 years ago and couldn't be bothered to update. A fresh new army will let me make a uniform army rather than one with some squads looking great and others with white blobs for eyes.)
When I first started 40K back in 5th ed, the armies I was interested in were IG for they're human-wave tactics and awesome tanks, Black Templars for their zealotry and holy hand grenades and Orks for their ramshackle tech like their walkers and CC horde style. Ultimately, largely due to Ork fluff and AoBR I ended up opting for Orks but Guard still hold a special place in my heart and it sucks to see how far they've fallen since their very brief time in the sun during the leafblower days. Alongside with Black Templars being inexplicably squished into the main codex and losing a lot of their flavour (and being sidelined competitively with all the psychic shenanigans being released ) I feel like I have some pretty bad luck choosing factions lol.
In any case, it seems that unfortunately GW doesn't understand the power-creep they've set up and instead of addressing the issue of a lot of horde armies like IG, Orks, or Nids in increasing the capabilities of those hordes in either tarpitting via lower points costs or potential damage output, they just throw formations where you have to take even MORE than what you need for little to no benefit.
Lasguns definitely need an overcharged firing mode, similar to Solar Auxilias' lasrifles, just to give them some oomph in doing damage to the bikers riding around everywhere and a big part is fixing the orders system they have right now. Vox casters have to be something that makes units gain unlimited range for orders as long as the company or platoon command squad have one as well (its supposed to be a vox-network right?) and for orders to be more normalized, as in you can give a FRF SRF as a single order to a single specific unit type in your army, like infantry squads. This way you aren't forced to blob up your army and MSU infantry squads can actually work. At the very least, make it so sergeants can give orders to their own units for things like Veterans so you aren't hamstrung for not going blob and give mechanized infantry their own version for orders.
Then actually give vehicles a command system as well, that doesn't suck like the Tank Commander's, where they can do something useful besides moving more or shooting and popping smoke (which can they only use once...).
Others have addressed the inherent issues of vehicles being weak this edition but I feel that orders are another flavourful thing in the guard army that needs to be revised from the ground up.
generalchaos34 wrote:
1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.
Heavy Weapon Squads need to be turned into Artillery. That T7 would go a looooooong way for them.
2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.
Simply put, the issue with bumping up cover saves or what have you is it doesn't matter. It's easy to grant Ignores Cover to things, and the Guardsman's natural predator is anything template-y.
I like where you're going with this, but it shouldn't be Cover. It should be a bonus to their armor save instead.
3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.
Honestly, if we see a 7th edition Guard book then we'll see squadrons getting special rules.That's a guarantee at this point. Tau got +1 BS for having a squadron of 3 vehicles that had their special rule, SM get the bonuses for their squadroned tanks, etc.
We got boned by being a 6E book and by the shift in design philosophy. The bandaid fix of Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Fist Armored Company goes a long way towards making you feel "well, they're not as awful anymore".
Griddlelol wrote:
Finally, tanks just aren't what they used to be. I remember when my Leman Russes were only afraid of Melta and Str 9+. Now it feels like they can just be chipped down slowly making them feel vastly over costed.
That "Wall of Steel" rule I posted up could be a good start...when paired with this:
Wall of Steel: All Imperial Guard vehicle Squadrons numbering 2 or more vehicles force the enemy player to reroll glancing hits and penetrating hits . Additionally vehicles with the Extra Armour upgrade subtract 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls and subtract 1 from the result on the Penetrating Hits table. Vehicles with the Track Guards upgrade subtract an additional 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls. A vehicle suffering a Penetrating Hit and equipped with the Extra Armour and Track Guards upgrade would then be modifying an enemy's armor penetration rolls by -2 points.
Armour of Contempt: Leman Russ Battle Tanks are designed to take the worst the enemy can throw at them and keep moving. Weapons designed to tackle tanks are the only true fear that Leman Russ crews have.
A Leman Russ variant tank has a 5+ Invulnerable Save, with a +1 modifier for every Guard Infantry Squad within 4" of the Leman Russ tanks(maximum of +2). This Invulnerable Save is only usable against ranged weapons that do not have the Armourbane, Melta, or Haywire special rules. Additionally on a successful Invulnerable roll, roll a D6. On a roll of 5 or more the shots are distributed as a shooting attack against the surrounding Guard Infantry Squads.
It's a bit wordy and would obviously need cleaning up/playtesting, but the idea should be obvious.
Grimskul wrote:
Lasguns definitely need an overcharged firing mode, similar to Solar Auxilias' lasrifles, just to give them some oomph in doing damage to the bikers riding around everywhere and a big part is fixing the orders system they have right now. Vox casters have to be something that makes units gain unlimited range for orders as long as the company or platoon command squad have one as well (its supposed to be a vox-network right?) and for orders to be more normalized, as in you can give a FRF SRF as a single order to a single specific unit type in your army, like infantry squads. This way you aren't forced to blob up your army and MSU infantry squads can actually work. At the very least, make it so sergeants can give orders to their own units for things like Veterans so you aren't hamstrung for not going blob and give mechanized infantry their own version for orders.
Truthfully, they just need to make Orders work as follows:
Senior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the army with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Senior Officer.
Junior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the Platoon with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Junior Officer.
Sergeant issues an Order--it applies to the Squad.
Some of the Orders would need to be reworked, but layering Orders should definitely be a thing.
Then actually give vehicles a command system as well, that doesn't suck like the Tank Commander's, where they can do something useful besides moving more or shooting and popping smoke (which can they only use once...).
Vehicles just need to be able to receive Orders. It works in the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company just fine.
With the increase in "Warzone" campaign style books, I would love to see a re-introduction to the War for Armageddon. With that we could, hopefully, see some extra boosts to Guard and Orks that could be really beneficial in bringing both armies back into the forefront of a more competitive play.
Some new (better) formations for both would be much needed along with some additional rules. The only real negative would be the Guard's and Orks' issues of point allotment per unit, but hopefully some increased rules would assist that issue.
generalchaos34 wrote: 1. price reduction. Things like hellhounds are useless because you can get eradicators for the same price only way better, somethings not right! Orgyns are 10 points too much, HWS need to go down a good 50% or they need a huge buff, like become T5 and maybe a 3+ or 4+ save to compensate for the price, plus the ability to be combined into a platoon to have some extra wounds to go around (and a bloody Vox, what kind of mortar has no radio equipment?) even better would be a decurion for infantry where you get to have free heavy and special weapons upgrades for taking a butt ton of men, or maybe free chimeras for your mech vets.
Heavy Weapon Squads need to be turned into Artillery. That T7 would go a looooooong way for them.
2. new universal special rule. guardsmen are THE gunline army, its what they do, Im ok with throwing mobility to the wind if I can sit back and shoot from the trenches, while maybe sending out squads of men to get slaughtered. To that effect all infantry models need something along the lines of a "DIG IN!" rule where after one turn of being immobile you get some sort of bonus like a +1 cover save, or stealth/shrouded and maybe a slight leadership boost (roll 3 take the lowest) since they feel safer in their trenches.
Simply put, the issue with bumping up cover saves or what have you is it doesn't matter. It's easy to grant Ignores Cover to things, and the Guardsman's natural predator is anything template-y.
I like where you're going with this, but it shouldn't be Cover. It should be a bonus to their armor save instead.
3. Most importantly is the issue of squadrons. Back in "the day" only guardsman got to have squadrons, since heavy slots were limited this really really made them shine in the bringing lots of firepower to the battlefield. This was offset by the squadron rules which could mean your tanks can get all wrecked in a single salvo of heavy weapons. Unfortunately everyone and their mother gets to squadron these days so we need something extra to compensate, and not your pansy "if you have three then X gets to happen" but something akin to your wall of steel where there is some sort of tangible bonus for taking more, like maybe a reroll ones to shoot, or a reduction on sponson costs, or maybe even the option to "barrage" your blasts to make them scatter off of one another to make them more likely to do damage. really, ANYTHING at this point would be nice, barring a massive discount on all guard vehicles. More robust and usable vehicle orders would also be a nice way to help this, maybe they can introduce a command vehicle that issues special vehicle orders that can boost your artillery and tanks. Oh and minimum range on basilisks being 36" is bull.
Honestly, if we see a 7th edition Guard book then we'll see squadrons getting special rules.That's a guarantee at this point. Tau got +1 BS for having a squadron of 3 vehicles that had their special rule, SM get the bonuses for their squadroned tanks, etc.
We got boned by being a 6E book and by the shift in design philosophy. The bandaid fix of Kabe's Herald and the Emperor's Fist Armored Company goes a long way towards making you feel "well, they're not as awful anymore".
Griddlelol wrote: Finally, tanks just aren't what they used to be. I remember when my Leman Russes were only afraid of Melta and Str 9+. Now it feels like they can just be chipped down slowly making them feel vastly over costed.
That "Wall of Steel" rule I posted up could be a good start...when paired with this:
Wall of Steel: All Imperial Guard vehicle Squadrons numbering 2 or more vehicles force the enemy player to reroll glancing hits and penetrating hits . Additionally vehicles with the Extra Armour upgrade subtract 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls and subtract 1 from the result on the Penetrating Hits table. Vehicles with the Track Guards upgrade subtract an additional 1 from enemy armor penetration rolls. A vehicle suffering a Penetrating Hit and equipped with the Extra Armour and Track Guards upgrade would then be modifying an enemy's armor penetration rolls by -2 points.
Armour of Contempt: Leman Russ Battle Tanks are designed to take the worst the enemy can throw at them and keep moving. Weapons designed to tackle tanks are the only true fear that Leman Russ crews have.
A Leman Russ variant tank has a 5+ Invulnerable Save, with a +1 modifier for every Guard Infantry Squad within 4" of the Leman Russ tanks(maximum of +2). This Invulnerable Save is only usable against ranged weapons that do not have the Armourbane, Melta, or Haywire special rules. Additionally on a successful Invulnerable roll, roll a D6. On a roll of 5 or more the shots are distributed as a shooting attack against the surrounding Guard Infantry Squads.
It's a bit wordy and would obviously need cleaning up/playtesting, but the idea should be obvious.
Grimskul wrote: Lasguns definitely need an overcharged firing mode, similar to Solar Auxilias' lasrifles, just to give them some oomph in doing damage to the bikers riding around everywhere and a big part is fixing the orders system they have right now. Vox casters have to be something that makes units gain unlimited range for orders as long as the company or platoon command squad have one as well (its supposed to be a vox-network right?) and for orders to be more normalized, as in you can give a FRF SRF as a single order to a single specific unit type in your army, like infantry squads. This way you aren't forced to blob up your army and MSU infantry squads can actually work. At the very least, make it so sergeants can give orders to their own units for things like Veterans so you aren't hamstrung for not going blob and give mechanized infantry their own version for orders.
Truthfully, they just need to make Orders work as follows:
Senior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the army with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Senior Officer. Junior Officer issues an Order--it applies to every unit in the Platoon with a Vox-Caster. If units do not have a Vox-Caster, then they are affected by the Order if within 12" of the Junior Officer. Sergeant issues an Order--it applies to the Squad.
Some of the Orders would need to be reworked, but layering Orders should definitely be a thing.
Then actually give vehicles a command system as well, that doesn't suck like the Tank Commander's, where they can do something useful besides moving more or shooting and popping smoke (which can they only use once...).
Vehicles just need to be able to receive Orders. It works in the Emperor's Wrath Artillery Company just fine.
That's a great way of doing orders! Like you said, some of the orders would have to be tweaked but this would make it a lot more intuitive and the idea that the IG is a ponderous but inevitable sledgehammer that has all its moving parts working together to crush the enemy.
I liked your rendition of overcharged lasguns (though I would edge towards it being S4 AP- or 6 to make it less like a bolter), how would you fix hotshot lasguns in comparison? Should they inherently start off with a stronger statline like S4 AP3? I always felt personally that hot shot lasguns should be an assault weapon given the mobile nature of scions, something like S3 AP3 assault 3. But if we were to follow the precedent set by your lasguns, I guess they'd be 24" S4 AP3 rapid fire for high power shots, 24" S3 AP3 Salvo 2/4 for the other mode?
That's a great way of doing orders! Like you said, some of the orders would have to be tweaked but this would make it a lot more intuitive and the idea that the IG is a ponderous but inevitable sledgehammer that has all its moving parts working together to crush the enemy.
I liked your rendition of overcharged lasguns (though I would edge towards it being S4 AP- or 6 to make it less like a bolter), how would you fix hotshot lasguns in comparison? Should they inherently start off with a stronger statline like S4 AP3? I always felt personally that hot shot lasguns should be an assault weapon given the mobile nature of scions, something like S3 AP3 assault 3. But if we were to follow the precedent set by your lasguns, I guess they'd be 24" S4 AP3 rapid fire for high power shots, 24" S3 AP3 Salvo 2/4 for the other mode?
I agree orders need a massive overhaul and I think he's on the right track! As for hotshots I think they merely need a shift to assault 2 to make a massive improvement on them (3 might be much) or if not that at least an increase in range to 24" (plus their volleyguns are already 2/4 and are very serviceable and balanced for their cost). Scions also need a slight point drop, They seem to be special weapon carriers only these days when I think they could do well as a pure sweeping squad with their hotshots. Plus maybe a something to make them deep strike better or give a bonus for NOT deepstriking, like the old doctrines of deep strike, infiltrate, or free meltas. And while we are on scions, a straight 30 point reduction in Taurox primes would be much appreciated, a loaded one shouldn't be nearing the cost of an actual battle tank, especially considering you are already taking a troop tax just to buy the damn things.
edit: not to mention that their scion command squads should be able to give more than one order, at this point in time I think its one of the MAJOR factors to why scions are not a competitive stand alone army. They went through the trouble to craft an amazing set of orders for them that are very functional and fluffy, then decided to make them almost unavailable to everyone save the command squad casting it on themselves
I liked your rendition of overcharged lasguns (though I would edge towards it being S4 AP- or 6 to make it less like a bolter), how would you fix hotshot lasguns in comparison? Should they inherently start off with a stronger statline like S4 AP3? I always felt personally that hot shot lasguns should be an assault weapon given the mobile nature of scions, something like S3 AP3 assault 3. But if we were to follow the precedent set by your lasguns, I guess they'd be 24" S4 AP3 rapid fire for high power shots, 24" S3 AP3 Salvo 2/4 for the other mode?
Well, first thing is I wouldn't call them "Hot-shot Lasguns" ever again. That was old fluff brought back after the Inquisition got something called the "Hellrifle" with Codex: Witch Hunters. It was a rifle that set people on fire basically. Nobody cares about the Inquisition anymore, so give me back my Hellguns!
With that out of the way...
Bobthehero basically has it spot on for how I would do it. Assault weapons for a "storm" profile--i.e. give two profiles "Storm" where it's intended for a squad to be attacking a position and "Precision" with far less shots but a bonus to Wound rolls or something like that.
Maybe tie it in with the Orders a Scion squad has received from their Sergeant/Junior Officer?
Like if a Scion Sergeant gives them a specific Order then until the next time an Order is issued that overrides it, they fire in Storm mode.
To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.
IG is at the bottom of the mid tier armies. leaps and bounds ahead of csm orks and de and a bit above nids. they have a few builds that are fun but are basically human version of tau but worse at everything
Bobthehero wrote: To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.
Scions have really good orders that make them super versatile, the problem being that the orders are hard to come by since only the command squad gets to give them and they only have one order. giving them to sergeants or giving the Prime 2 orders at least (and maybe unlimited range if the squad has a vox?) would go a loooong way to fixing that army
It's an uphill battle for sure. I have to say that compared to other armies at the same power level they are still really fun to play, just less so against the top tier armies (but I mean, who has that much fun playing against Scatterbike spam, etc.?)
It's super rewarding when your plans come together, orders get accepted, cover ignored, pincers close etc. It's just kind of any other day when that doesn't happen and you're hosing the blood and bits of flak armor off of your tanks.
I have to say I like a lot of the new formations that came out. They're pretty costly and almost impossible to play as a full formation detachment in anything shy of 2000 pts, but they add some nice features to a CAD.
More Dakka wrote: It's an uphill battle for sure. I have to say that compared to other armies at the same power level they are still really fun to play, just less so against the top tier armies (but I mean, who has that much fun playing against Scatterbike spam, etc.?)
It's super rewarding when your plans come together, orders get accepted, cover ignored, pincers close etc. It's just kind of any other day when that doesn't happen and you're hosing the blood and bits of flak armor off of your tanks.
I have to say I like a lot of the new formations that came out. They're pretty costly and almost impossible to play as a full formation detachment in anything shy of 2000 pts, but they add some nice features to a CAD.
Agreed, the new formations are fun and different and not an auto take, which is something I hate.
I am liking how this is coming together as a discussion, normally in the CSM threads or other armies its all doom and gloom but we are putting an effort to make the army play more fun.
I guess when you're just a man with a gun against the enemies of humanity all you need is hope, dogged determination, and a few extra laspacks to succeed.
I mentioned this in another thread, but I'll mention it again here:
IG and the other horde armies suffer from an inability to replenish losses. Their entire schtick is "we have more bodies than you have bullets". Maybe the IG should have an Order that allows them to replenish losses.
Call it "That's Just a Flesh Wound! Get Back in There, You Cowards!" one non-vehicle troop unit within 12" of the Commisar regains 2d6 models previously lost up to it original size. Just an idea.
Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves
I'm liking most of the suggestions that I've read so far. Especially the bonuses forogryns/bullgryns, but AV 14 vehicle squadrons with reroll pen/glance AND a possible 2+ invul? That's just silly. They're a big enough pain with camouflage netting, but I could get on board with rerouting glances/pens if full squadrons are taken. Ant kind of invuln for russes just OTT. Also, there is just no reason, at all, ever thales a Las gun should have a firing mode that puts a storm bolter to shame. I could get behind a Str 4/AP4 rand 30" rapid fire, gets hot as ONCE per game, but if you make overcharge salvo 2/3 and Str 5 to where they can shoot every turn why would the IoM use any other small arm (aside from special weapons)?
I also think it would be cool if they could take some kind of psyker cohort.
Bobthehero wrote: To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.
Scions have really good orders that make them super versatile, the problem being that the orders are hard to come by since only the command squad gets to give them and they only have one order. giving them to sergeants or giving the Prime 2 orders at least (and maybe unlimited range if the squad has a vox?) would go a loooong way to fixing that army
Simply put, the issue with the Scions as their own Codex is that they never should have been given the "Orders" system. They're balanced around and pointed out for the Platoons we see in C: AM. Don't believe me? If you have a hard copy of the codex, read Warlord trait #4 "Grav-Chute Commandos".
In any regards, my solution for Scions? Remove them from C: AM. Remove Hardened Veterans from Troops and make them a "Hardened Veteran Platoon" for an Elite choice. Purchase a "doctrine"/"specialist loadout" for the Platoon(Grenadiers, Scouts/Light Infantry, Mechanized) and it gives them a unique loadout and USRs. Grenadiers for example would have access to Hellguns, Carapace Armor, and only get Special Weapons. Mechanized would have Carapace Armor, access to Special and Heavy Weapons but have to take a DT. Scouts/Light Infantry would be the standard Guard with Camo-Cloaks, and limited access to Special and Heavy Weapons--nothing beyond Missile Launchers, Sniper Rifles, Demolition Charges, and Grenade Launchers.
"But Kanluwen--what about Scions?! They've still got their own book and you're just screwing over Scions players!" you might say.
Nope! I've got plans for them. A special rule in the Scions book called "The Sharp End of the Spear":
The Sharp End of the Spear: Tempestus Scions operate as a separate part of the Astra Militarum. Nominally, the Militarum Tempestus Scions would obey commands from superior officers...provided they don't conflict with their operational parameters. Units taken from Militarum Tempestus with Vox-Casters can receive Orders given by Astra Militarum Senior Officers. Anyone below the rank of Senior Officers are ignored by the Scions, as the orders they are giving will not mesh with the operational parameters of the Scions' mission.
Replacing Orders in the Militarum Tempestus book is something I'm not sure how to do yet. I'm thinking it will be something different, like how Cult Mechanicus has their Psalms while Skitarii have Doctrina Imperatives. I'm thinking something along the lines of the army having USRs boosting their survivability until the turn they complete an objective chosen from a list(kill a Warlord, destroy a specific vehicle/MC/whatever) and then losing some of the survivability USRs after completion. Still puzzling that out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dantes_Baals wrote: I'm liking most of the suggestions that I've read so far. Especially the bonuses forogryns/bullgryns, but AV 14 vehicle squadrons with reroll pen/glance AND a possible 2+ invul? That's just silly.
Um, a possible 3+ Invulnerable Save. Read the stuff in parentheses--maximum of 2+ bonus.
Oh yeah--and that requires at least two Infantry Squads within 4 inches of each individual tank.
They're a big enough pain with camouflage netting, but I could get on board with rerouting glances/pens if full squadrons are taken.
How in the world are you having Leman Russes "being a pain with camouflage netting"? Seriously man.
First--vehicles require 25% of the model to be fully obscured in order to claim a Cover save. That's strike 1.
Second--Camouflage Netting gives a single point bonus to Cover.
So in the open, that Leman Russ has a 6+ save. Since it requires 25% obscured to be anything more than "in the open", just get a side shot in on it.
Bonus points--side armor is AV13 and rear armor is AV10(11 on some variants)!
Ant kind of invuln for russes just OTT.
Man, you must hate Onager Dunecrawlers then. 90 points for a Walker that has a 6+ Invulnerable Save, and gets +1 to its Invulnerable Save for each Onager in the Squadron and within coherency. And that can buy It Will Not Die for a cheap price, while being buffed by Doctrina Imperatives to boot.
Face facts. Leman Russes suck. If you're having that much of an issue against them with Camo Netting, I don't know what to tell you. If you're playing Marines, just give an IC an Auspex and toss him into a squad. That Cover save in the open is then gone.
Also, there is just no reason, at all, ever thales a Las gun should have a firing mode that puts a storm bolter to shame. I could get behind a Str 4/AP4 rand 30" rapid fire, gets hot as ONCE per game, but if you make overcharge salvo 2/3 and Str 5 to where they can shoot every turn why would the IoM use any other small arm (aside from special weapons)?
Can't help you. Bolters suck, it's a well known fact. This thread is about the Guard though.
I also think it would be cool if they could take some kind of psyker cohort.
They can. It's in Mont'ka. It just isn't as good as any of the other ones that exist.
Vaktathi wrote: Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves
I like what you did there with a bunch of the things, but I do have one question, why the hate on Grenade launchers? Maybe im weird but thats always my go to special if I need to maximize point costs and running a lot of infantry, especially with emperors shield. I find that a S6 hit at range can potentially wound MCs or light vehicles (as opposed to not wounding them at all) or still do a small blast over the more limited utility of a flamer, which excels at its job, but you obviously need to be right in the enemies face and at point my squad will be dead. I also run my platoons MSU with krak grenades so I can vehicle and MC hunt in a pinch.
Vaktathi wrote: Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves
I like what you did there with a bunch of the things, but I do have one question, why the hate on Grenade launchers? Maybe im weird but thats always my go to special if I need to maximize point costs and running a lot of infantry, especially with emperors shield. I find that a S6 hit at range can potentially wound MCs or light vehicles (as opposed to not wounding them at all) or still do a small blast over the more limited utility of a flamer, which excels at its job, but you obviously need to be right in the enemies face and at point my squad will be dead. I also run my platoons MSU with krak grenades so I can vehicle and MC hunt in a pinch.
I tried so hard to like Grenade Launchers, I really did, and I ran them on my platoon infantry all through 5th, and still do sometimes. The problem is that the GL really is a piddly weapon that largely just works out to be a slightly beefier lasgun for a single dude, and doesn't enhance the capabilities of the unit all *that* much or let them do much that they couldn't do before aside from a small chance to hurt light vehicles. 5 units of guardsmen with a Plasma Gun are overall a much more flexible and capable group than 6 units with Grenade Launchers for the same cost even with fewer dudes, they can successfully engage a much wider array of targets with a much greater success rate due to getting potentially twice as many shots, ignoring armor altogether, and having higher Strength.
Guard are lacking in so many ways it's not even funny. Most of them have already been pointed out in this thread, so I won't bother bringing them back up. But I will say this, I haven't brought my Guard out of the box in months, I just feel like I don't stand a chance against most armies with them anymore, if I want to actually have a fun game I have to bring my Marines, and that's a shame
Not Age of Emprah, but a meta reset where the powercreep is removed - allowing normal troop weapons to actually do something.
This I could role with - a complete re-balance done at one time, bringing everything down (or up, in some cases, what ever is appropriate) to the same level. Yeah I know that's a huge undertaking, but hey, the best options aren't always the easiest.
It really does need an overhaul. The slow codex released schedule coupled with years of bad balance problems makes every new book a bad hot fix that often does little to address the problems.
Its like they don't try. Maybe they are just counting on the players to implement the fixes themselves.
War Kitten wrote: Guard are lacking in so many ways it's not even funny. Most of them have already been pointed out in this thread, so I won't bother bringing them back up. But I will say this, I haven't brought my Guard out of the box in months, I just feel like I don't stand a chance against most armies with them anymore, if I want to actually have a fun game I have to bring my Marines, and that's a shame
Do you own Deathwatch: Overkill?
Because Guard are about to get a pretty solid boost with the Deathwatch Librarian and Kill-Team as an Allied Detachment(1 HQ and 1 Troop). The Librarian is,from the 'reference guide' we've seen that is included with the new Psyker powers, able to take any of the new Psyker lores.
Geokinesis with an infantry blob and Phase Form(the Ignores Cover and Ignore LOS restrictions power) and Shifting Worldscape(Guard in a bunker out of range? Not for long! ) will make for some hilarity along with FRSRF.
War Kitten wrote: Guard are lacking in so many ways it's not even funny. Most of them have already been pointed out in this thread, so I won't bother bringing them back up. But I will say this, I haven't brought my Guard out of the box in months, I just feel like I don't stand a chance against most armies with them anymore, if I want to actually have a fun game I have to bring my Marines, and that's a shame
Do you own Deathwatch: Overkill?
Because Guard are about to get a pretty solid boost with the Deathwatch Librarian and Kill-Team as an Allied Detachment(1 HQ and 1 Troop). The Librarian is,from the 'reference guide' we've seen that is included with the new Psyker powers, able to take any of the new Psyker lores.
Geokinesis with an infantry blob and Phase Form(the Ignores Cover and Ignore LOS restrictions power) and Shifting Worldscape(Guard in a bunker out of range? Not for long! ) will make for some hilarity along with FRSRF.
Sadly I don't own Overkill, and I won't have the money for it for a long while (hobbying on a college student budget is fun). At some point I'll look into picking it up (if only for the cool SM minis), but until then I find that I have precious little reason to bother playing my Guard
Guard players around here love their ADLs. That+ building cover + Camo Netting =3+ cover. And big woop. 120 points of naked veterans. IDK a single guard player who doesn't bubble wrap their tanks with that already. I agree guard need help, but giving a 14/13/11 tank squadron that spits a 8/3 pie plate the length of the table (plus the sponsons), a 2 up invuln for utilizing an common pre-existing tactic and common sense use of terrain is going too far is what I'm saying. Have some respect. Don't turn russes into an IoM riptide, because that's exactly what it will be with a 2 up invuln and at least a 5 up cover (intervening models).
And yea bolters suck, but they're better than Las guns. Always have been. I think more than a few people would take issue if suddenly an average guardsman outgunned a grey knight. On top of that you want to fudge 15 years of lore and rules so you don't have to work as hard to wound bikers. Really man?
And yea Onager crawlers are a bitch to kill. Basically a mini ad-lance, but with a 4+ they can be dealt with. Even GW knows 2+ is going full-tard.
Guard players around here love their ADLs. That+ building cover + Camo Netting =3+ cover.
Guard players everywhere love their ADLs. Guard are crap without cover, whether we're talking about their tanks or not.
And big woop. 120 points of naked veterans.
1) I specified "Infantry Squads" for a reason. Read the Guard book sometime. Infantry Squad is actually a specific unit.
So no, 120 points of naked veterans wouldn't do anything.
IDK a single guard player who doesn't bubble wrap their tanks with that already. I agree guard need help, but giving a 14/13/11 tank squadron that spits a 8/3 pie plate the length of the table (plus the sponsons),
2) The "14/13/11 tank squadron that spits a 8/3 pie plate the length of the table" isn't 14/13/11. Once again, read the Guard book.
The following variants are 14/13/11:
Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Punisher
Leman Russ Executioner
The maximum range on those is 36", and that's the Executioner.
a 2 up invuln for utilizing an common pre-existing tactic and common sense use of terrain is going too far is what I'm saying. Have some respect. Don't turn russes into an IoM riptide, because that's exactly what it will be with a 2 up invuln and at least a 5 up cover (intervening models).
Armour of Contempt: Leman Russ Battle Tanks are designed to take the worst the enemy can throw at them and keep moving. Weapons designed to tackle tanks are the only true fear that Leman Russ crews have.
A Leman Russ variant tank has a 5+ Invulnerable Save, with a +1 modifier for every Guard Infantry Squad within 4" of the Leman Russ tanks(maximum of +2). This Invulnerable Save is only usable against ranged weapons that do not have the Armourbane, Melta, or Haywire special rules. Additionally on a successful Invulnerable roll, roll a D6. On a roll of 5 or more the shots are distributed as a shooting attack against the surrounding Guard Infantry Squads.
Hold up 5 fingers. Subtract 2 fingers, the maximum modifier, from it.
You will have 3 fingers left. That is what the best possible Invulnerable Save will be from my proposed rule. 3+. It's not a 2+, it's a 3+. Additionally it does not function against the things that SHOULD be getting used to prey specifically on tanks--Armourbane, Melta, and Haywire.
Notice as well how it says "A Leman Russ variant tank", and not "A Leman Russ Tank Squadron". The save is specific to each tank.
And yea bolters suck, but they're better than Las guns. Always have been. I think more than a few people would take issue if suddenly an average guardsman outgunned a grey knight. On top of that you want to fudge 15 years of lore and rules so you don't have to work as hard to wound bikers. Really man?
I don't think you've read any of my posts, ever. I'm very much for updating everything that is a "legacy" at this point.
To use an example, I think that all Bolt weapons should be touting Shred as standard and the Boltgun should be Assault 3 rather than Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire, at this point, should be renamed to Double Tap--because that's all it is. It's a single extra shot when at half range or less. Oooooooooooooooooh, so rapid fire!
PS: If Guard want to kill bikers? We don't have to work too hard to do it. Wyvern do the job pretty well.
DoD you know that some people call a 2+ sv a +2 or 2 up save? Did you know that some other people make typos like the plus sign before the 2. Furthermore did you know to remove any and all ambiguity all you had to say was "maximum 3+"? Even so, if this rule is going alongside the reroll successful glances/pens I really don't think it should drop below 4+ at best but we can agree to disagree on that one. I mean reroll successes on top of a Cover save and a 4+ invul on an AV 14 (if properly positioned)vehicle... That's an epic pain in the ass to kill a single 160 point tank.
And I believe what you are referring to are platoons. A platoon consists of a platoon command squad and between 1 and 3 infantry squads and possibly a special and or heavy weapons squad. The only SQUADS as you put it are either part of a platoon or are veterans.
Okay, so a regular LRBTS rear AV is 10. Does it matter 10 or 11 if you never expose it to the opponent? And no I didn't go through your post history. Why would anyone just to see what you may or may not have suggested about IoM small arms? I'm not doing a fuckin book report here. And like you said, this thread is about guard.
EDIT: And when you first brought up the invul for the LRBT it was done so in tandem with the "Wall of Steel" suggestion, so the onus was on you to differentiate that the invul applied to individual russes.
Just to help clarify: "maximum of +2" reads to many people as no better than a 2+ save. The placement of the + (and lack of the ++) is just not 100% clear like it should be.
Maybe reword it to say "maximum of 3++" since that's much more clear in my opinion.
Also, can we kill this idea that any Russ with an ordnance weapon takes sponsons. It doesn't happen. Ever. The punisher, executioner and vanquisher do, but that's an entirely different story.
Bobthehero wrote: To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.
Scions have really good orders that make them super versatile, the problem being that the orders are hard to come by since only the command squad gets to give them and they only have one order. giving them to sergeants or giving the Prime 2 orders at least (and maybe unlimited range if the squad has a vox?) would go a loooong way to fixing that army
Simply put, the issue with the Scions as their own Codex is that they never should have been given the "Orders" system. They're balanced around and pointed out for the Platoons we see in C: AM. Don't believe me? If you have a hard copy of the codex, read Warlord trait #4 "Grav-Chute Commandos".
In any regards, my solution for Scions? Remove them from C: AM. Remove Hardened Veterans from Troops and make them a "Hardened Veteran Platoon" for an Elite choice. Purchase a "doctrine"/"specialist loadout" for the Platoon(Grenadiers, Scouts/Light Infantry, Mechanized) and it gives them a unique loadout and USRs. Grenadiers for example would have access to Hellguns, Carapace Armor, and only get Special Weapons. Mechanized would have Carapace Armor, access to Special and Heavy Weapons but have to take a DT. Scouts/Light Infantry would be the standard Guard with Camo-Cloaks, and limited access to Special and Heavy Weapons--nothing beyond Missile Launchers, Sniper Rifles, Demolition Charges, and Grenade Launchers.
"But Kanluwen--what about Scions?! They've still got their own book and you're just screwing over Scions players!" you might say.
Nope! I've got plans for them. A special rule in the Scions book called "The Sharp End of the Spear":
The Sharp End of the Spear: Tempestus Scions operate as a separate part of the Astra Militarum. Nominally, the Militarum Tempestus Scions would obey commands from superior officers...provided they don't conflict with their operational parameters. Units taken from Militarum Tempestus with Vox-Casters can receive Orders given by Astra Militarum Senior Officers. Anyone below the rank of Senior Officers are ignored by the Scions, as the orders they are giving will not mesh with the operational parameters of the Scions' mission.
Replacing Orders in the Militarum Tempestus book is something I'm not sure how to do yet. I'm thinking it will be something different, like how Cult Mechanicus has their Psalms while Skitarii have Doctrina Imperatives. I'm thinking something along the lines of the army having USRs boosting their survivability until the turn they complete an objective chosen from a list(kill a Warlord, destroy a specific vehicle/MC/whatever) and then losing some of the survivability USRs after completion. Still puzzling that out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dantes_Baals wrote: I'm liking most of the suggestions that I've read so far. Especially the bonuses forogryns/bullgryns, but AV 14 vehicle squadrons with reroll pen/glance AND a possible 2+ invul? That's just silly.
Um, a possible 3+ Invulnerable Save. Read the stuff in parentheses--maximum of 2+ bonus.
Oh yeah--and that requires at least two Infantry Squads within 4 inches of each individual tank.
They're a big enough pain with camouflage netting, but I could get on board with rerouting glances/pens if full squadrons are taken.
How in the world are you having Leman Russes "being a pain with camouflage netting"? Seriously man.
First--vehicles require 25% of the model to be fully obscured in order to claim a Cover save. That's strike 1.
Second--Camouflage Netting gives a single point bonus to Cover.
So in the open, that Leman Russ has a 6+ save. Since it requires 25% obscured to be anything more than "in the open", just get a side shot in on it.
Bonus points--side armor is AV13 and rear armor is AV10(11 on some variants)!
Ant kind of invuln for russes just OTT.
Man, you must hate Onager Dunecrawlers then. 90 points for a Walker that has a 6+ Invulnerable Save, and gets +1 to its Invulnerable Save for each Onager in the Squadron and within coherency. And that can buy It Will Not Die for a cheap price, while being buffed by Doctrina Imperatives to boot.
Face facts. Leman Russes suck. If you're having that much of an issue against them with Camo Netting, I don't know what to tell you. If you're playing Marines, just give an IC an Auspex and toss him into a squad. That Cover save in the open is then gone.
Also, there is just no reason, at all, ever thales a Las gun should have a firing mode that puts a storm bolter to shame. I could get behind a Str 4/AP4 rand 30" rapid fire, gets hot as ONCE per game, but if you make overcharge salvo 2/3 and Str 5 to where they can shoot every turn why would the IoM use any other small arm (aside from special weapons)?
Can't help you. Bolters suck, it's a well known fact. This thread is about the Guard though.
I also think it would be cool if they could take some kind of psyker cohort.
They can. It's in Mont'ka. It just isn't as good as any of the other ones that exist.
This would solve a lot of the problems i have with the guard codex, just lower the cost of heavy & special weapons, especially in the support squards and the codex will be greatly improved.
Still doesn't solve the issue of Chimeras being made of paper. Marines don't care if you pop their Rhinos. They have T4 3+, and drop pods!
Opening the armour casing my vets so easily and consistently leaves them practically immobile and incredibly vulnerable.
I guess if Chimeras cost nothing (akin to that ridiculous formation), then I wouldn't care. I'd spam Chimeras like nobody's business. Costing 65 points is way too much for how long they survive (i.e. one turn).
Griddlelol wrote: Still doesn't solve the issue of Chimeras being made of paper. Marines don't care if you pop their Rhinos. They have T4 3+, and drop pods!
Opening the armour casing my vets so easily and consistently leaves them practically immobile and incredibly vulnerable.
I guess if Chimeras cost nothing (akin to that ridiculous formation), then I wouldn't care. I'd spam Chimeras like nobody's business. Costing 65 points is way too much for how long they survive (i.e. one turn).
agreed, when they had 5 firing points it felt like more of a deal with real drive by potential, especially with command squads, nowadays I see sometimes half of my men killed from the vehicle explosion itself and thats before the enemy gets to shoot them
Well. The Chimaera/Leman Russ-problems are related to that craptastic vehicle-rules in the rulebook. Thats not the issue of the guard alone. All tanks except skimmers suck.
Griddlelol wrote: Still doesn't solve the issue of Chimeras being made of paper. Marines don't care if you pop their Rhinos. They have T4 3+, and drop pods!
Opening the armour casing my vets so easily and consistently leaves them practically immobile and incredibly vulnerable.
I guess if Chimeras cost nothing (akin to that ridiculous formation), then I wouldn't care. I'd spam Chimeras like nobody's business. Costing 65 points is way too much for how long they survive (i.e. one turn).
Have to agree. Chimeras cost too much and a point drop would be a lot of help for sure. If they do release a formation, would like to see: Minimum requirements are 1x CCS, 2x Veteran Squads in Chimeras. If 5x Chimeras or more are taken, then Chimeras are free in points. Other than that, still makes zero sense that Chimeras in the Standard IG Codex cannot take Autocannon Turrets.
I'm really not a fan of just free stuff. Chimeras need a points drop, but the core vehicle rules really are the biggest issue. Get them back to 55pts with a 5E style vehicle kill system and theyll be golden.
How would you guys go about making guard more capable if one wanted to use a regiment based on Long Range Penetration.
I want my guard units to be semi autonomous with the ability to ambush and take out other enemy troops. They cannot be hoard based. Fire support is provided on location via attached sentinels, heavy weapons squads and other light weapon platforms. Long range support is provided by artillery and aircraft that remain on standby. How can I achieve this without becoming a hoard army, or using large and cumbersome vehicles (I will absolutely refuse to do this)?
Here is an Image of my guys and how I ideally would like them to work.
I've been playing IG since 2000. I've enjoyed them quite a bit, but they suffer as one of "those" armies GW never quite gets right.
My group has a house rule that standard games use one faction, one FOC, no allies, no lords of war, no formations. This has helped the Guard quite a bit, as these are the areas they lag the most. It's still not enough to make them good, just not crappy.
For everyone else that plays the game with allies, formations, etc. things need to change.
While I'm fine with IG being disposable meatbag bullet catchers, I don't want to pay a premium for that ability. EVERYTHING needs to come down in cost. Some of that is a mild point reduction, some of that is a MASSIVE drop in points. Heavy Weapons being one of the massive drops needed.
Let's just face it, they aren't recutting the Ogryn box any time soon. What we have in the box is it for options. However, we shouldn't be totally limited in our options. I think that Ogryns should have the option of the heavier Bullgryn armor. On the same note Boneheads should have the run of the available wargear in the kit. Want a Bonehead with a Ripper Gun and a slabsheild? Fine, do it. Whatever the options, they ALL need to have a drop in points. Ripper guns need to have a slight boost.
Imperial Guard suffer from the problem that they use brute force firepower to try and overcome enemy defenses but lack the sheer weight of fire (a la Scatterbikes) or the buffs/unit synergy (like Tau) to do so. Guard needs to take things in huge numbers to accomplish anything but is heavily gimped since they pay out the ass for mediocrity.
As an example, why are Lascannon upgrades for HWTs 20 points? The same cost SM Devastator squads pay for them and they get a better BS along with inherent buffs from CTs.
Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.
Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.
I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.
Hawky wrote: Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.
Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.
I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.
I can somewhat agree with you on that. The question is, where to buff, and where to points-slash? When it comes to basic human troops, I think the only real option is a points-cut. They are intended to be an endless wall of puny humans dying in droves. Having a hundred guardsmen on the field should only put a small dent in your points allowance. Ogryn, well I'd prefer a points drop, but I could live with a decent buff. If they made Leman Russ tanks able to fire EVERYTHING on the move again I'd be willing to keep them at their current points level. Sentinels and RoughRiders need something good. Right now they just stink. Maybe make sentinels available in units of 5 and let them take orders?
I really did like the idea of simplifying orders. Commander affects whole army, Sargent his squad, Lt. effects the platoon. So simple, so easy to understand.
Hawky wrote: Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.
Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.
I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.
I can somewhat agree with you on that. The question is, where to buff, and where to points-slash? When it comes to basic human troops, I think the only real option is a points-cut. They are intended to be an endless wall of puny humans dying in droves. Having a hundred guardsmen on the field should only put a small dent in your points allowance. Ogryn, well I'd prefer a points drop, but I could live with a decent buff. If they made Leman Russ tanks able to fire EVERYTHING on the move again I'd be willing to keep them at their current points level. Sentinels and RoughRiders need something good. Right now they just stink. Maybe make sentinels available in units of 5 and let them take orders?
I really did like the idea of simplifying orders. Commander affects whole army, Sargent his squad, Lt. effects the platoon. So simple, so easy to understand.
Light infantry, guerrilla, and/or commando ambush fighters are anything but the monolithic, and quite frankly boring (from my point of view, not trashing you) incarnation of the guard that you are referring to. Any catch all fix for guardsmen is going to fall short. There need to be specific doctrines that dramatically change how the guardsman himself works. It will only restrict playstyles if you want to implement these changes on the base unit profile.
It's as simple as picking a doctrine that gives an advantage and a disadvantage dependent on the playstyle you want. The guardsman unit profile should be a template that would then allow you to customize him to fit your play style.
Hawky wrote: Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.
Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.
I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.
I can somewhat agree with you on that. The question is, where to buff, and where to points-slash? When it comes to basic human troops, I think the only real option is a points-cut. They are intended to be an endless wall of puny humans dying in droves. Having a hundred guardsmen on the field should only put a small dent in your points allowance. Ogryn, well I'd prefer a points drop, but I could live with a decent buff. If they made Leman Russ tanks able to fire EVERYTHING on the move again I'd be willing to keep them at their current points level. Sentinels and RoughRiders need something good. Right now they just stink. Maybe make sentinels available in units of 5 and let them take orders?
I really did like the idea of simplifying orders. Commander affects whole army, Sargent his squad, Lt. effects the platoon. So simple, so easy to understand.
Light infantry, guerrilla, and/or commando ambush fighters are anything but the monolithic, and quite frankly boring (from my point of view, not trashing you) incarnation of the guard that you are referring to. Any catch all fix for guardsmen is going to fall short. There need to be specific doctrines that dramatically change how the guardsman himself works. It will only restrict playstyles if you want to implement these changes on the base unit profile.
It's as simple as picking a doctrine that gives an advantage and a disadvantage dependent on the playstyle you want. The guardsman unit profile should be a template that would then allow you to customize him to fit your play style.
I remember the doctrine days, those were super fun! It would probably shoot sales out the roof considering you can make like 50 different armies in one codex if they had something even with 5 choices like Light Infantry (vehicle restrictions), mechanized (flyer/troop restricted), Aerial (ground vehicle restrictions), Elites/Scions (vehicle/troop restrictions), and Artillery company (vehicle restrictions)
Yes, doctrines or specialisations would certainly pepper up the gameplay. I personally would not agree with restrictions, but cetrain buffs to specific units, depenting on doctrine, would be good enough.
Like pinning after disembarking for mechanised doctrine and such...
Vaktathi wrote: I'm really not a fan of just free stuff. Chimeras need a points drop, but the core vehicle rules really are the biggest issue. Get them back to 55pts with a 5E style vehicle kill system and theyll be golden.
I have no problem with free things as long as it comes with a downside. If you want mech vets then free chimeras is nothing but good, if they limited it to a "blitzkrieg formation"** then I would probably be ok with it.
**Infantry must take a chimera, and no artillery, they're moving too fast for lumbering artillery support.
This is just off the top of my head, but just an overall decrease in chimera cost would be fine, that, or a change in rules so vehicles don't pop open with as little as a mean look.
Dantes_Baals wrote: I'd be cool with Chimera at 45 or 50 points a pop. 65 is pretty ridiculous considering what a devilfish gets for 15 points more.
Of course the devil fish isnt exactly the paragon of good transports either, it just gets to jink. Once again a flaw with the basic rules that seems to make it that much harder to balance out guard. Besides, Chimeras SHOULD be cheap, Guardsman are supposed to be using light throwaway vehicles so they should be dirt cheap. I would argue for something in the 30-40 range. they would be slightly better than Rhinos in the point to vehicle ratio but the whole point is that its a disposable vehicle that I can spam relentlessly.
Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.
The RH1N0 has side armour 11 which basically makes it immune to small arms fire. The Chimera suffers from SA 10 which means it gets rapid fired to death by most infantry.
On the topic of things we need:
The Chimera needs to come down to 40-45 points and gain a side armour of 11
Leman Russ need an invun save of 5+ or better and the old Lumbering Behemoth rules returned. They also need to be able to overwatch
Remove the damage spread from squadrons
Let Squadrons split up and remove/increase the coherency range
Make it so that enemy units assaulting a tank have to hit the facing armour, not the rear. Tanks are still vulnerable but now positioning is a lot more important
Bring EVERYTHING down in price
.... And a whole heap of other things. I really cannot be bothered posting all the fixes any more. If people want them they can find them in all of the other threads like this one out there.
Right now playing IG is not fun. It is incredibly hard for me to last beyond turn three and now that my most regular opponent has abandoned 40K and now insists on bringing 30K armies to every game I have pretty much stopped playing.
"Well, my shot kills 8 of your Marines"
'No, my sarge has Artificer armour' *He starts rolling dice one at a time, each save passed dropping a wound*
"Well that was pointless"
'What are you on about? Your cannon killed those two guys stood in front of the sergeant '
Or:
'I fire my Typhon at the squad in that ruin.... all 10 of those guys hit, and another 8 from that section and that tank is clipped and I catch that rapier too'
*rolls dice*
'Okay, their all dead and I penetrated the tank.... And it is dead too'
"Well I get cover sa-"
'No you dont, the Typhon ignores cover. Now I am going to fire these ten missile launchers at your surviving two tanks'
Yeah, well at least he cannot bring the Line breaker or formations with his 30K Marines.
Yet.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.
The RH1N0 has side armour 11 which basically makes it immune to small arms fire. The Chimera suffers from SA 10 which means it gets rapid fired to death by most infantry.
On the topic of things we need:
The Chimera needs to come down to 40-45 points and gain a side armour of 11
Leman Russ need an invun save of 5+ or better and the old Lumbering Behemoth rules returned. They also need to be able to overwatch
Remove the damage spread from squadrons
Let Squadrons split up and remove/increase the coherency range
Make it so that enemy units assaulting a tank have to hit the facing armour, not the rear. Tanks are still vulnerable but now positioning is a lot more important
Bring EVERYTHING down in price
.... And a whole heap of other things. I really cannot be bothered posting all the fixes any more. If people want them they can find them in all of the other threads like this one out there.
Right now playing IG is not fun. It is incredibly hard for me to last beyond turn three and now that my most regular opponent has abandoned 40K and now insists on bringing 30K armies to every game I have pretty much stopped playing.
"Well, my shot kills 8 of your Marines"
'No, my sarge has Artificer armour' *He starts rolling dice one at a time, each save passed dropping a wound*
"Well that was pointless"
'What are you on about? Your cannon killed those two guys stood in front of the sergeant '
Or:
'I fire my Typhon at the squad in that ruin.... all 10 of those guys hit, and another 8 from that section and that tank is clipped and I catch that rapier too'
*rolls dice*
'Okay, their all dead and I penetrated the tank.... And it is dead too'
"Well I get cover sa-"
'No you dont, the Typhon ignores cover. Now I am going to fire these ten missile launchers at your surviving two tanks'
Yeah, well at least he cannot bring the Line breaker or formations with his 30K Marines.
Yet.
Sounds like a typical power-gamer tool lol. Have a few people like him at my store and I have learned not to play 30k armies. One guy got mad when I turned him down and the reason was simple, good 30k Space Marines with 30k rules vs an Outdated, Bottem Tier Codex using 40k rules. Sorry but you can't play a 40k game if your opponent is using 30k rules and you are using 40k rules. It's not even close.
Dantes_Baals wrote: Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.
The RH1N0 has side armour 11 which basically makes it immune to small arms fire. The Chimera suffers from SA 10 which means it gets rapid fired to death by most infantry.
On the topic of things we need:
The Chimera needs to come down to 40-45 points and gain a side armour of 11
Leman Russ need an invun save of 5+ or better and the old Lumbering Behemoth rules returned. They also need to be able to overwatch
Remove the damage spread from squadrons
Let Squadrons split up and remove/increase the coherency range
Make it so that enemy units assaulting a tank have to hit the facing armour, not the rear. Tanks are still vulnerable but now positioning is a lot more important
Bring EVERYTHING down in price
.... And a whole heap of other things. I really cannot be bothered posting all the fixes any more. If people want them they can find them in all of the other threads like this one out there.
Right now playing IG is not fun. It is incredibly hard for me to last beyond turn three and now that my most regular opponent has abandoned 40K and now insists on bringing 30K armies to every game I have pretty much stopped playing.
"Well, my shot kills 8 of your Marines"
'No, my sarge has Artificer armour' *He starts rolling dice one at a time, each save passed dropping a wound*
"Well that was pointless"
'What are you on about? Your cannon killed those two guys stood in front of the sergeant '
Or:
'I fire my Typhon at the squad in that ruin.... all 10 of those guys hit, and another 8 from that section and that tank is clipped and I catch that rapier too'
*rolls dice*
'Okay, their all dead and I penetrated the tank.... And it is dead too'
"Well I get cover sa-"
'No you dont, the Typhon ignores cover. Now I am going to fire these ten missile launchers at your surviving two tanks'
Yeah, well at least he cannot bring the Line breaker or formations with his 30K Marines.
Yet.
He took a Typhon against guard? Was he afraid of not tabling you or something?
The Guard need a big overhaul in too many things to count.
Tanks, Artillery, Point prices, fire power, survivability for everything in general, I know that guard are supposed to be squishy and die in droves, but everything out there makes a 50 man blob vanish in a single turn *cough* Elderp *cough*. Tanks die by being looked at funny, etc...
Ironwolf45 wrote: To a lot of them, they feel that the Imperial Guard are a bad army right now as they need a major update to be competitive in this Edition. This of course lead to a debate and by the end of it, I couldn't do much to convince them despite winning 2 games.
My apologies for the somewhat asinine analogy, but:
Imagine you were all on a night out and nobody believed you could meet women. You go straight over to one woman, have a dance with her and a laugh, and get her number. A bit later that night you do the same thing again with a different woman. If these people were still unconvinced that you could get a woman, would you think that they have a valid point, or would you think they were idiots whose opinions should be flushed down the bog?
(I'm not calling anti-Guard players idiots, just people who aren't convinced by what's right in front of them)
Actually when he said "I love to play IG and they are fun.." That should be the end of any debate in his head. It's a game and he's having fun. IG will get their codex update in time and those same players will whine about how you "just bought them to play because they are new and OP"
Fido198674 wrote: IG will get their codex update in time and those same players will whine about how you "just bought them to play because they are new and OP"
This assumes the next IG codex update actually does anything for them. The last codex didn't really fix anything with the army, the next one might not either
Fido198674 wrote: IG will get their codex update in time and those same players will whine about how you "just bought them to play because they are new and OP"
This assumes the next IG codex update actually does anything for them. The last codex didn't really fix anything with the army, the next one might not either
Honestly, that's why I think they should just can the whole idea of the "Astra Militarum" and just do "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".
I believe guard are quite solid in certain ares, but need support in others. I won a 1500pts local tournament using a list that was 75% a guard CAD a few weeks back.
Game 1 was against a ravenwing/iron hands deathstar with a smashfether captain. I used wyverns to kill all the supporting bikers and tied it up in combat with conscripts til the game's end.
Game 2 was against a tau list with a flying forge world riptide, a regular riptide, and a huge taunar 'supremacy suit'. I killed the flying one with allied grav bikes, and the supremacy couldn't find anything good to shoot - he had the choice of killing conscripts, command squads or 65pt wyverns. One blob of conscripts got invisibility through Coteaz and was safe from the templates all game. I won on objectives.
Game 3 was against a new Tzeentch daemon incursion formation with fateweaver and a lord of change. This was a bit of a slaughter - wyverns + lasguns massacred his horrors and conscript charges finished the rest. Then it was just a case of firing all lasguns at the sky until fateweaver and the LOC died.
In my opinion, guard excel at anti-infantry firepower and survivability, but in my opinion they have poor ability to take out armour and monstrous creatures.
I believe the two truly effective units in the book are conscripts and wyverns. Wyverns have murderous damage output and decent defence (an AV12 chassis for 65pts isn't bad!). They can unleash hell on near any infantry unit, and snipe out important characters / weapons from squads. Conscripts are great tarpits - 50 models with a priest costs 175pts, and is a big headache for opponents to deal with. They are also decently effective against infantry in CC and are reasonable shooters against invisibility and FMCs (as BS1 is barely worth than BS2). I took two units of 50 to the tourney, one with Coteaz attached in addition to the priest.
They do need allies to cover their weaknesses however. I used an allied ravenwing attack formation with some grav to deal with potential wraithknights and high AV vehicles, and coteaz to provide some shrouding/invisibility, CC muscle and re-rolls to seize.
I think that guard excel as an army that can soak up punishment and still have a ton of infantry to contest/control objectives at the games end. Their defensive abilities are far more important than their killing power!
Not according to "Cadian Blood" and the Doctrines Codex.
Codex: Imperial Guard p58 wrote:
Cadian Shock Troops Cadia has always been a fortress world, charged with guarding the entrance to the Eye of Terror. Its population are all destined for a military life; the birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous. Cadian Regiments are highly disciplined, make excellent shots, and use elite shock troops to lead their attacks. Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.
Preferred special weapon: Grenade Launcher
Preferred heavy weapon: Autocannon
-Grenadiers
-Sanctioned Psykers
-Special Weapon squads
-Storm Trooper squads [Note: This and Grenadiers were used to represent the Kasrkin from the Eye of Terror book]
-Iron Discipline
-Sharpshooters
-Conscript platoons
"Cadian Blood" had the regiment being pretty heavily offended by being assigned a Commissar, ostensibly for their Sanctioned Psyker despite the fact that Cadian officers are able to go through Commissariat training and be certified to handle Psykers.
I say give each regiment a playstayle like third edition or chapter tactics like the marines do. That would not only help with survivability but also attract more players to play more troop based armies.
tau tse tung wrote: I say give each regiment a playstayle like third edition or chapter tactics like the marines do. That would not only help with survivability but also attract more players to play more troop based armies.
I think something akin to chapter tactics would probably be the easiest to implement. As much as I would like I think the mix and match days from the doctrines book will not be returning (plus it was kind of a pain and some were a bit more powerful than the others). Ideally they would have something like Cadian (all rounder with better orders/leadership) Catachan (mostly infantry with maybe stubborn or cheap access to camo) Steel Legion (mechanized infantry/tanks) Elysian (flyers flyers flyers!) and DKoK (artillery to the max)
Kanluwen wrote: Putting it succinctly, we're not getting Doctrines or special rules for Regiments from GW proper ever again.
Not unless GW starts producing ranges in plastic.
That's why I am all for them cutting the Ratlings, Commissars, Priests, and Rough Riders out.
Let us get a Cadian army as a Cadian army instead of "Cadians and their neighbor Wilson Wilson Wilson".
You have a valid point. And last go around it REALLY REALLY seemed like they were going give us some new rough riders prior to the book release since they disappeared off the webstore and all. Granted ive had a good time converting them but their rules are awful,
No offense, but an IG army made up of 100 fearless conscripts and a half dozen Wyverns sounds like one of the most flavorless armies I've ever heard of. The fact that you had to add a bunch of Invisible, grav-wielding bikers re-rolling jink along with Coteaz further reinforces the sad state of the game. Congrats to you for winning a tournament, but I'd rather take a spikey, metal Bloodthirster to the jugular and bleed-out on the filthy, gaming store floor than choose to play that list.
And your list still doesn't mean the IG codex is worth the smart card space it takes up on my tablet.
War Kitten wrote:Sadly, if you read MoO's other posts, this is par for the course with his opponent. He gives the rest of us Marine players a bad name
Aye that is true, out my four usual opponents he is by far the worst. Sadly he is the one I usually end up facing.
TheCustomLime wrote:
He took a Typhon against guard? Was he afraid of not tabling you or something?
He loves his 'ignores cover' stuff... Or at least he has started too ever since I started going camo heavy and camping out in ruins for that sweet 3+ save. It made my veterans and tanks hard to shift without dedicating a bit of firepower their way. For some reason he didnt like that.
Ironwolf45 wrote:
Sounds like a typical power-gamer tool lol. Have a few people like him at my store and I have learned not to play 30k armies. One guy got mad when I turned him down and the reason was simple, good 30k Space Marines with 30k rules vs an Outdated, Bottem Tier Codex using 40k rules. Sorry but you can't play a 40k game if your opponent is using 30k rules and you are using 40k rules. It's not even close.
To be fair 40K was hardly any better - he has three Vindicators and five Librarians and if you thought the Linebreaker was bad then you have clearly never faced an invisible Linebreaker. In all honesty 30K was a slight reprieve as he does not really know how to best employ his units. Sadly he just bought a bunch of big things and selected the best anti Guard units to bring.
Anyway, it is not like my other games go that well. My GK opponent uses that deepstrike formation to negate my range advantage and get in close where I cannot fight whilst my Space Wolf opponent loves his outflankers and flyers, although to be fair those two do tone their lists down when facing weaker codexes, and they do play fluffy lists.
Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.
ThirstySpaceMan wrote: Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.
I agree with pretty much all of this. If any weapon deserves to be 'D' then it is the Deathstrike. The thing is a fecking ballistic missile FFS.
Leman Russ tank should have 4HP. Because it's big fething tank made to whitstand the worst of the worst. And that's why is has the same amount of HP as a Wartrukk...
No offense, but an IG army made up of 100 fearless conscripts and a half dozen Wyverns sounds like one of the most flavorless armies I've ever heard of. The fact that you had to add a bunch of Invisible, grav-wielding bikers re-rolling jink along with Coteaz further reinforces the sad state of the game. Congrats to you for winning a tournament, but I'd rather take a spikey, metal Bloodthirster to the jugular and bleed-out on the filthy, gaming store floor than choose to play that list.
And your list still doesn't mean the IG codex is worth the smart card space it takes up on my tablet.
Cheers for that. I wasn't saying it was a friendly list - it was a competitive one for a tournament. I thought we were debating how the imperial guard codex could be made to equal the likes of tau and eldar?
For the record there were three wyverns only, and only one squad of three grav bikers (to counter wraithknights which guard have no real answer to). I also only rolled invisibility once of the three games too, and it was just to make one conscript unit invisible so the Taunar suit didn't turn them into a big crater in one turn. There were a lot of models, but I was playing a mainly infantry list, so why wouldn't I play to one of the guard codex's main strengths?
I went up against ravenwing re-rolling 2+ jink and daemons with invisibility (and all manner of other psychic powers), so I wasn't exactly doing anything the other players weren't
ThirstySpaceMan wrote: Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.
I agree with pretty much all of this. If any weapon deserves to be 'D' then it is the Deathstrike. The thing is a fecking ballistic missile FFS.
ThirstySpaceMan wrote: Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.
I agree with pretty much all of this. If any weapon deserves to be 'D' then it is the Deathstrike. The thing is a fecking ballistic missile FFS.
Bet you the Deathstrike gets nerfed next codex.
They'll take a page from the Orks and have rolls of 1 when seeing if it fires or not cause it to land prematurely on itself with no scatter and at strength D. Otherwise it keeps the same profile.
Poor horde armies can't catch a break this edition without exorbitant formations that force you to buy hundreds of infantry models.
Sometimes in order to save the forest, you have to kill the trees.
This would be awful. A codex based on an army which is not able to take back their planet but on the other hand is THE military power of the imperium besides the spess mereens. Plus the models are awful. I want plastic vostroyans and a Codex: Vostroyan Firstborn!
Sometimes in order to save the forest, you have to kill the trees.
This would be awful. A codex based on an army which is not able to take back their planet but on the other hand is THE military power of the imperium besides the spess mereens.
As of right now in terms of the timeline, The 13th Black Crusade hasn't "happened" yet. They rolled the clock back.
In any regards if you really want to say something about Cadia, remember that they've been keeping the Eye of Terror controlled for how long?
One defeat is just a chance to regroup and play offense for a change!
Plus the models are awful.
Yeah because huge fur hats and mustaches are great. Get out!
I want plastic vostroyans and a Codex: Vostroyan Firstborn!
The difference is that my suggestion, sadly, is more likely. If they wanted to add more Regiments in plastic? They could have done it by now. They could have done it several times over by now.
No offense, but an IG army made up of 100 fearless conscripts and a half dozen Wyverns sounds like one of the most flavorless armies I've ever heard of. The fact that you had to add a bunch of Invisible, grav-wielding bikers re-rolling jink along with Coteaz further reinforces the sad state of the game. Congrats to you for winning a tournament, but I'd rather take a spikey, metal Bloodthirster to the jugular and bleed-out on the filthy, gaming store floor than choose to play that list.
And your list still doesn't mean the IG codex is worth the smart card space it takes up on my tablet.
Cheers for that. I wasn't saying it was a friendly list - it was a competitive one for a tournament. I thought we were debating how the imperial guard codex could be made to equal the likes of tau and eldar?
For the record there were three wyverns only, and only one squad of three grav bikers (to counter wraithknights which guard have no real answer to). I also only rolled invisibility once of the three games too, and it was just to make one conscript unit invisible so the Taunar suit didn't turn them into a big crater in one turn. There were a lot of models, but I was playing a mainly infantry list, so why wouldn't I play to one of the guard codex's main strengths?
I went up against ravenwing re-rolling 2+ jink and daemons with invisibility (and all manner of other psychic powers), so I wasn't exactly doing anything the other players weren't
My post may have been strongly worded, but I didn't intend to berate you for your choices, just to point out that our choices are limited to stuff I (and most people) wouldn't want to have to play on a regular basis to have a chance in a normal pickup game. It's a tournament, so there's nothing wrong with taking what gives you the best chance to win.
Sometimes in order to save the forest, you have to kill the trees.
This would be awful. A codex based on an army which is not able to take back their planet but on the other hand is THE military power of the imperium besides the spess mereens.
As of right now in terms of the timeline, The 13th Black Crusade hasn't "happened" yet. They rolled the clock back.
In any regards if you really want to say something about Cadia, remember that they've been keeping the Eye of Terror controlled for how long?
One defeat is just a chance to regroup and play offense for a change!
Plus the models are awful.
Yeah because huge fur hats and mustaches are great. Get out!
I want plastic vostroyans and a Codex: Vostroyan Firstborn!
The difference is that my suggestion, sadly, is more likely. If they wanted to add more Regiments in plastic? They could have done it by now. They could have done it several times over by now.
I know that a Codex: Vostroyan will never ever happen but i love the models AND huge fur hats rule!
PS: people without beards are children!
PPS: since 10.000 years every first born son of vostroya fights and dies for the Emperor!
I'd be fine if they went full Codex Cadia if they at least updated the core kits to be smaller scale and have all the weapons options built in (including wargear/bling for veterans). I'm not crazy about Cadians but it looks like they're going to be as good as we're going to get. Catachans also deserve a sorely needed update.
As long as they keep the metal ranges in stock for the other regiments (that are still there at least), they give a potential option for others interested in them even if they're not in plastic. Plus there's great 3rd party guard models to cover the missed greatcoat opportunity.
I'm not sure if they'll bring vehicles back to their original strength and glory due to how prevalent they were in previous additions. My thoughts are they're too afraid to give them the power they once had.
That being said, it makes no sense to me that Leman Russ don't have 4 Hull Points and all the vehicles absolutely should have bonuses for taking a full squadron.
I still say Lasguns need an update. I get the iconic nature and the standard it sets, but when armies are doing mass fire better than the original mass fire gun, there's a problem.
Non skimmer vehicles were only ever really strong and prevalent in one edition ever, 5th. Thats probably not a concern of the rules team given how consistently they make Skimmers and MC's amazing.
Grimskul wrote: I'd be fine if they went full Codex Cadia if they at least updated the core kits to be smaller scale and have all the weapons options built in (including wargear/bling for veterans). I'm not crazy about Cadians but it looks like they're going to be as good as we're going to get.
Veterans deserve their own box, not just stuff thrown into the standard Cadian Shock Troop box.
In all honesty though? The kit is pretty good but it could use a clean-up, like we saw with the Tau Fire Warriors. I don't want smaller Cadians in any case, that would mean rebuying my whole army...and that dog ain't hunting.
If we see Cadians get anything in terms of their main boxed set altering, it's going to be recuts of the box to include the other special weapons and possibly heavy weapons as well.
Catachans also deserve a sorely needed update.
Truthfully, they kinda got one in the form of the Catachan Command Squad and the Heavy Weapons. Supposedly though those were crummy sellers hence their removal to Direct Only.
I can't see Catachans sticking around.
As long as they keep the metal ranges in stock for the other regiments (that are still there at least), they give a potential option for others interested in them even if they're not in plastic. Plus there's great 3rd party guard models to cover the missed greatcoat opportunity.
Yeah...if they go Codex: Cadia, that's not happening.
FW's ranges would be intact most likely and get split off into their 'own' books/lists. DKoK and D99 basically use their own books without input from C: AM anyways.
These doctrines are intended to be used within a narrative campaign. They may not be completely balanced, but they are meant to help guard players better represent their regiment’s style of fighting on the table. These are intended to be used primarily on the guardsmen themselves.
Each doctrine is applied to the army. Only doctrines that make sense may be used together (you make the call).Â
Mechanized: units that have the capability of taking a transport, must take one. The same turn that this unit disembarks from its transport, it gains the pinning special rule.
Artillery Company: infantry may not take transports, all barrage weapons gain the pinning special rule
.
Light Infantry regiment: In addition to the warlord trait you roll, your warlord automatically has the Master of ambush warlord trait. Your infantry obtain the moves through cover and relentless special rules. Your Lasguns always have 1 additional shot. Your infantry may not take transports, or heavy weapons. Nor can you take any large vehicles such as the leman russ. Vehicles such as buggies and sentinels are permitted (they need to be smaller and more nimble than traditional vehicles). You may not run this as a horde army.
Feral world: Your infantry units obtain the moves through cover, and relentless special rules. They gain +1 strength. Normal guardsmen may only be equipped with a laspistol and ccw. Characters may still take additional items and weapons as they would otherwise normally be able to do.
Penal Troops. : Conscript squads and guardsmen squads swap places on the platoon chart. Now you need two conscript squads to take one guardsmen squad.
Long range vox. : Vox casters now allow orders to be received anywhere on the battlefield instead of allowing orders to be rerolled.
Grimskul wrote: I'd be fine if they went full Codex Cadia if they at least updated the core kits to be smaller scale and have all the weapons options built in (including wargear/bling for veterans). I'm not crazy about Cadians but it looks like they're going to be as good as we're going to get.
Veterans deserve their own box, not just stuff thrown into the standard Cadian Shock Troop box.
In all honesty though? The kit is pretty good but it could use a clean-up, like we saw with the Tau Fire Warriors. I don't want smaller Cadians in any case, that would mean rebuying my whole army...and that dog ain't hunting.
If we see Cadians get anything in terms of their main boxed set altering, it's going to be recuts of the box to include the other special weapons and possibly heavy weapons as well.
Catachans also deserve a sorely needed update.
Truthfully, they kinda got one in the form of the Catachan Command Squad and the Heavy Weapons. Supposedly though those were crummy sellers hence their removal to Direct Only.
I can't see Catachans sticking around.
As long as they keep the metal ranges in stock for the other regiments (that are still there at least), they give a potential option for others interested in them even if they're not in plastic. Plus there's great 3rd party guard models to cover the missed greatcoat opportunity.
Yeah...if they go Codex: Cadia, that's not happening.
FW's ranges would be intact most likely and get split off into their 'own' books/lists. DKoK and D99 basically use their own books without input from C: AM anyways.
Well if they do a reboxing with the Cadian infantry set like they did with Tau in terms of Fire Warriors, I'd be shocked if they didn't make it a dual kit in some way given that the Fire Warrior box set can make breachers alongside fire warriors. In the same sense, given that Veterans are just battle-hardened and slightly differently equipped versions of infantry squads and not outright different units like Scions I'm not sure if they warrant an entirely separate box set. That's the general trend for a lot of plastic 40K infantry kits nowadays, short of marines since they're pretty interchangeable, I mean look at the Skitarii boxes.
Catachans make sense having low sales since they never bothered to replace the old core Catachan troop box. It's kind of hard to do a reboot of Catachans properly when the box that you'll use the most (the crappy looking one) almost needs several boxes of the command squad set just to make them look decent, or otherwise forces you to buy an excessive amount of catachan command squad boxes.
Well if they do a reboxing with the Cadian infantry set like they did with Tau in terms of Fire Warriors, I'd be shocked if they didn't make it a dual kit in some way given that the Fire Warrior box set can make breachers alongside fire warriors. In the same sense, given that Veterans are just battle-hardened and slightly differently equipped versions of infantry squads and not outright different units like Scions I'm not sure if they warrant an entirely separate box set. That's the general trend for a lot of plastic 40K infantry kits nowadays, short of marines since they're pretty interchangeable, I mean look at the Skitarii boxes.
To be fair, what you're missing out on is that the Fire Warriors kit? It had no real options before. You could build a guy with a scanner arm and a raised rifle or carbine, you could build a guy with grenades in hand throwing with a rifle/carbine, or you could build everyone with either rifles or carbines.
Heck, the Gun Drones in the box? They were their own frames that could only build Gun Drones.
Skitarii have the option for an Omnispex, a Vox, and three special weapons for the squad. Additionally, there's options for the Skitarii Alphas(Maul, Power Sword, Taser Goad, Arc Pistol or Phosphor Pistol--or there's a spare rifle on the frame and a pointing arm as well).
IF they went my route with the Cadians becoming their own Codex, and IF they went my route of simply redoing the Shock Troops box rather than creating a whole new scale?
I can almost guarantee you that it would be a single box like the Marines. Marines have all of their Special Weapon options(Grav, Melta, Flamer, Plasma--and as a bonus, there's a Combi weapon for the squad Sergeant) in there and one of their Heavy Weapon options(Missile Launchers).
That's all they could fit into a 10 man Marine box, on two sprues.
Now think about Guard Squads. Not Veteran Squads with their options--just Guard Squads.
You're talking about Sniper Rifles, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, Grenade Launchers, and Flamers as Special Weapon options. Then you're talking about Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers, Mortars, Autocannons, and Lascannons for Heavy Weapon options.
There just wouldn't be room for a Veteran set in there, unless Veterans lost all their options.
IronMaster wrote: I'm not sure if they'll bring vehicles back to their original strength and glory due to how prevalent they were in previous additions. My thoughts are they're too afraid to give them the power they once had.
That being said, it makes no sense to me that Leman Russ don't have 4 Hull Points and all the vehicles absolutely should have bonuses for taking a full squadron.
I still say Lasguns need an update. I get the iconic nature and the standard it sets, but when armies are doing mass fire better than the original mass fire gun, there's a problem.
4HP and bonuses to squadroning would be a massive step in the right direction as would reduced points costs.
Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.
Zustiur wrote: Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.
Because it would mean Eldar, Tau and Marine players have to dedicate more than a passing thought to taking them out.
Zustiur wrote: Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.
HWS should deffinitely be cheaper ... and at least T4 or T5
Zustiur wrote: Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.
HWS should deffinitely be cheaper ... and at least T4 or T5
I always believed if HWT's were to remain their same stats, they should at least be 30 points, as they're practically the same thing as a SWS. 6 wounds for 30 points, upgrade how you will. If you did that, I'd definitely consider HWT's more, especially for 60 points, I'd be getting three autocannon teams, 6 wounds. However I do believe they need some buff, like either some sandbag cover rule or increase Toughness to 4 (Such as some gun emplacements, which have high toughness and such).
Zustiur wrote: Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.
HWS should deffinitely be cheaper ... and at least T4 or T5
I always believed if HWT's were to remain their same stats, they should at least be 30 points, as they're practically the same thing as a SWS. 6 wounds for 30 points, upgrade how you will. If you did that, I'd definitely consider HWT's more, especially for 60 points, I'd be getting three autocannon teams, 6 wounds. However I do believe they need some buff, like either some sandbag cover rule or increase Toughness to 4 (Such as some gun emplacements, which have high toughness and such).
The problem you then have is the weapons cost.
Back in the 5th edition codex all the HWT's came with a mortar as standard and could then upgrade it. However in the new codex they no longer come with any weapons and instead have to pay points a weapon, be it a mortar of a lascannon. And the prices went up too - no way on mother earth is a Lascannon worth 25 points on a Guardsman. 15 maybe, but 25? 75 points plus the cost of the squad (currently 45) is an obscene price to have to pay for three BS3 T3 Lascannons.
Do you think it would be asking too much to give HWS's the artillery special rule? With that you wouldn't necessarily need a points decrease and they'd be T7 to shooting.
I'd rather they were cheaper. They're guard, they're expendable. I don't want a few expensive, hard to kill infantry units backed up by tanks, I want more infantry units than you can shoot at, but when you look at them, they die.
Let me spam HWSs and SWSs and Infantry squads so I can overwhelm target priority. That, backed up by tanks.
pm713 wrote: For the non IG players: What's a mortar?
A glorified rubbish bin at the moment. See Kanluwen's post for reasons why.
I should actually mention that they used to be okay. Maybe not excellent but okay, and then the power creep happened. I do miss the days when I could bring mortar batteries and not be laughed at.
Irl a mortar is a portable artillery unit. Pretty much just a metal tube. Shove a mortar shell into it, the shell fires up into the air, and hooefully lands on the target.
Selym wrote: Irl a mortar is a portable artillery unit. Pretty much just a metal tube. Shove a mortar shell into it, the shell fires up into the air, and hooefully lands on the target.
British infantry love em.
Aye, now if we had mortars like this, with a higher rate of fire (say, three shots per turn per tube) then they might actually be worth something.
master of ordinance wrote: T7 vs shooting and a slight points drop, THEN we might be talking.
As it stands I am paying 55 points for three T3 MORTARS for feths sake.
I do hope you're joking... I think the HWTS could use a points drop and an automatic 5+ cover due to gunshields, but what in the name of perfect health makes you think that humans in cardboard armor should be harder to wound than a carnifex alongside a 5 point decrease?
master of ordinance wrote: T7 vs shooting and a slight points drop, THEN we might be talking.
As it stands I am paying 55 points for three T3 MORTARS for feths sake.
I do hope you're joking... I think the HWTS could use a points drop and an automatic 5+ cover due to gunshields,
Oh sure that makes perfect sense. Let's give a unit 5+ cover.
Oh what's that? 5+ Cover is as bad as a 5+ armor save? Well damn. Back to the drawing board!
but what in the name of perfect health makes you think that humans in cardboard armor should be harder to wound than a carnifex alongside a 5 point decrease?
Check the price of a Mek Gun or an Eldar weapons platform or a TFC or any Artillery piece currently in the game.
Artillery units are T7 solely against shooting attacks.
pm713 wrote: 5+ cover is better than 5+ armour I think. There's less ignores cover than ap5
When you're T3, it doesn't matter if it's a 5+ cover or a 5+ armor save.
You're boned with a large number of weapons despite being a large mounted weapon(that Guard players have to pay friggin' Marine points for) and two crewmen sheltering behind it.
master of ordinance wrote: T7 vs shooting and a slight points drop, THEN we might be talking.
As it stands I am paying 55 points for three T3 MORTARS for feths sake.
I do hope you're joking... I think the HWTS could use a points drop and an automatic 5+ cover due to gunshields, but what in the name of perfect health makes you think that humans in cardboard armor should be harder to wound than a carnifex alongside a 5 point decrease?
T7 vs shooting only and, lets face it, HWT are hardly the toughest unit out there. Just assault them or shoot them with amassed small arms. Oh, and they gain a 3+ save vs shooting too.
Because an earthshaker cannon is a monstrous piece of heavy forged steel artillery they can duck/take cover under. A LC that goes up to their knees and can be carried around by a two man team doesn't even begin to provide that kind of cover. There is no reason at all a krak missile should have an easier time wounding a carnifex than a pair of humans hiding behind a tin gunshield. We aren't even talking fluff anymore. This is straight up common sense.
Edit: AND a 3+ vs shooting? Seriously man ; in addition to your wishlist for LRBTS to ignore basically ALL vehicle weaknesses and then some, why don't you go ahead and throw an "I win" Warlord trait in there with the other changes.
Dantes_Baals wrote:Because an earthshaker cannon is a monstrous piece of heavy forged steel artillery they can duck/take cover under. A LC that goes up to their knees and can be carried around by a two man team doesn't even begin to provide that kind of cover. There is no reason at all a krak missile should have an easier time wounding a carnifex than a pair of humans hiding behind a tin gunshield. We aren't even talking fluff anymore. This is straight up common sense.
And neither does a Riptide or Stormsurge being an MC and not a vehicle, or for that matter three Vindicators being able to suddenly fire a super shell or for that matter an ornamental spiky iron ring providing a 4++ save or just about half of the things in 40K, but your point is?
Edit: AND a 3+ vs shooting? Seriously man ; in addition to your wishlist for LRBTS to ignore basically ALL vehicle weaknesses and then some, why don't you go ahead and throw an "I win" Warlord trait in there with the other changes.
My wishlist of LRBT's to avoid all vehicle weaknesses? What, you mean the one that makes them useable again as opposed to the wast of points we have now? All I want them to do is to be able to move and fire their main gun and secondary weapons effectively, have some form of a save against damaging (both things that an MC and GMC can do) and for assaulters to have to attack its facing armour because right now LRBT's vanish as soon as the enemy reaches assault range. And for the stupid damage mechanic that has overflowing damage spread across the entire troop removed.
Do you even play Guard? Do you even know what it is like to play them? Have you ever had the wonderful privilege of having to set up your army only to have packed most of it back up by turn two? No? Well then, you should try playing an Imperial Guard army and good luck lasting past turn three.
Oh and that 3+? It is only vs shooting and, along with the T7, might actually see HWT's lasting beyond the first shooting phase.
Selym wrote:Perma cover save, points drop The dudes are hiding behind a HMG in spehss, and a couple of sandbags. They're not particularly durable.
Perma cover save would be nice but ultimately redundant with all the 'ignores cover' that flies around these days. T7 and a 3+ vs shooting thankyou very much.
I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.
That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.
Vaktathi wrote: I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.
That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.
I would happily settle for this. Just give us a 4+ save as well.
Dantes_Baals wrote:Because an earthshaker cannon is a monstrous piece of heavy forged steel artillery they can duck/take cover under. A LC that goes up to their knees and can be carried around by a two man team doesn't even begin to provide that kind of cover. There is no reason at all a krak missile should have an easier time wounding a carnifex than a pair of humans hiding behind a tin gunshield. We aren't even talking fluff anymore. This is straight up common sense.
And neither does a Riptide or Stormsurge being an MC and not a vehicle, or for that matter three Vindicators being able to suddenly fire a super shell or for that matter an ornamental spiky iron ring providing a 4++ save or just about half of the things in 40K, but your point is?
Edit: AND a 3+ vs shooting? Seriously man ; in addition to your wishlist for LRBTS to ignore basically ALL vehicle weaknesses and then some, why don't you go ahead and throw an "I win" Warlord trait in there with the other changes.
My wishlist of LRBT's to avoid all vehicle weaknesses? What, you mean the one that makes them useable again as opposed to the wast of points we have now? All I want them to do is to be able to move and fire their main gun and secondary weapons effectively, have some form of a save against damaging (both things that an MC and GMC can do) and for assaulters to have to attack its facing armour because right now LRBT's vanish as soon as the enemy reaches assault range. And for the stupid damage mechanic that has overflowing damage spread across the entire troop removed.
Do you even play Guard? Do you even know what it is like to play them? Have you ever had the wonderful privilege of having to set up your army only to have packed most of it back up by turn two? No? Well then, you should try playing an Imperial Guard army and good luck lasting past turn three.
Oh and that 3+? It is only vs shooting and, along with the T7, might actually see HWT's lasting beyond the first shooting phase.
Selym wrote:Perma cover save, points drop The dudes are hiding behind a HMG in spehss, and a couple of sandbags. They're not particularly durable.
Perma cover save would be nice but ultimately redundant with all the 'ignores cover' that flies around these days. T7 and a 3+ vs shooting thankyou very much.
I have no issue with bringing back lumbering behemoth. I thought it actually made a lot of sense. But Russes should be harder to assault, get an arbitrary save and ignore the glance/pen allocation rule on squadrons because... Why? I'm drawing a blank. Look man, non-skimmer vehicles just suck this edition. Everybody else has to deal with it, I don't see why IG shouldnt. Especially if there is no fluff or good reason for it. And T7 3+ vs shooting in an almost entirely shooting based edition is a pretty big deal. Even a boost to T5 would make zero sense. I get HWTS could use a hand, but outside of a permanent 4+ cover, the ability to overwatch and 20 points max for a HWT of any type don't see what else can be done. Maybe give them access to Camo netting? The whole "the most OP dexes in the game have stupid, nonsense rules so mine should too", doesn't really play well.
Traditio wrote: A copy/paste of what I wrote on another thread, but it bears repeating for this one:
"For anyone who thinks that IG is underpowered, I wish to recall how, at the very least, I've experienced games against them to go:
IG goes turn one:
20 (exaggerated, but not by much) barrage large blasts. Say goodbye to a third of your army.
Me:
Welp, good game. I concede."
IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
Not sure what army you play but the IG are not that strong at all right now. They can do well against the other Non-Competitive armies atm, but they get wiped out against all the other top tier lists. It has seriously gotten to the point with me where I do not want to play my IG anymore unless it is a fun game. Even then it is annoying sometimes. I don't complain and I love my IG but reality shows the stark difference of how weak the IG are right now compared to other armies in the game.
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
Not sure what army you play but the IG are not that strong at all right now. They can do well against the other Non-Competitive armies atm, but they get wiped out against all the other top tier lists. It has seriously gotten to the point with me where I do not want to play my IG anymore unless it is a fun game. Even then it is annoying sometimes. I don't complain and I love my IG but reality shows the stark difference of how weak the IG are right now compared to other armies in the game.
That is literally what I just said, they are competitive against other non-competitive armies like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, but they can't stand up to the cheese armies (SM, Tau, Eldar, Necron)
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
+1000
Not to mention that IG don't have a hard counter for every possible strategy you've got to throw at them for dirt cheap.
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
+1000
Not to mention that IG don't have a hard counter for every possible strategy you've got to throw at them for dirt cheap.
I don't know what you are talking about, Skyfire, interceptor, combined overwatch, ignores cover markerlights, +BS Markerlights, GMC's with more dakka then squadrons of battle tanks and broadsides armed with ignores los weapons is Fluffy, they aren't cheesy or ridiculous they are simply an advanced galactic race that is more powerful dakka wise then the oldest races in the universe.
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
Refuse to play anyone who plays IG, wraithknights, scatter bikes or Tau.
I refuse to play anyone who brings cheesy lists against my bottom tier orks. But IG generally aren't cheesy and can be beaten with my bottom tier codex if I play the right way. Don't get me wrong there are still lists they can bring which have a lot of cheese in them but I rarely see them do that.
I hate to bring the hate against Eldar but so far in my own personal experience they are the #1 violators of the anti-cheese movement. I have refused more games against Eldar players then every other army put together. A distinctly remember a guy showing up trying to find a game at any points level (500-5,000) and getting turned down every single time. Why? because his entire army he brought was WraithKnights, Scatter Bikes, a bunch of Psyker shenanigans and then the cheese of all cheese, an Eldar TITAN!!!!!!!!
SemperMortis wrote:I refuse to play anyone who brings cheesy lists against my bottom tier orks. But IG generally aren't cheesy
Lolz.
Explain to me what you would consider "cheesy."
and can be beaten with my bottom tier codex if I play the right way.
You mean, if you meticulously measure out 2 inches between each and every single ork you have, carefully restrict your movement always to be in cover, carefully premeasure your opponents guns with respect to your units, bring tons of jinkable bikes, etc?
I usually run a lot of Warbikers so meh not a big concern, I also love my battle Wagonz which with AV14 up front aren't overly concerned about IG blast weapons. Plus when My boyz do get into CC with that IG gunline they die in droves.
The biggest difference between IG and Tau is this.
Against Tau the entire game is me trying to close the gap and getting killed before I get there.
Against IG he kills a bunch of my stuff right away, and then I close the gap and I start killing a bunch of his stuff. Realistically that is how it is supposed to be. CC army against Shooty army. GW just Fethed it all up when they did this recent rendition of power creep..
Bobthehero wrote: There's a clear bias vs gunline armies on this site...
I again disagree for the above stated reasons which I will put here for convenience sake. I hate Tau armies because they aren't a gunline army. They are a ridiculously fast gunline army that can out pace my own army that is attempting to close that gap. JSJ is a stupid mechanic simple as that. SO yeah I hate them as a gunline because they aren't just a gunline army they are a mobile army
Against IG I have a lot of fun, in that kind of match up it quickly becomes a contest to see how much of my force I can save from IG fire and close the gap to get into CC and my opponent tries to minimize the threats to his gunline at the same time. It becomes a game of numbers and attrition and is a blast for both parties. He likes blowing up my stuff and I like chopping his stuff into itty bitty pieces.
So Yeah not a huge fan of gunlines but I do love the IG.
I know bob no hate buddy, I just think a lot of people think the same way as that, granted I am full of myself
I really believe that a lot of the hatred for gunlines stems from Tau, and realistically Tau and IG couldn't be anymore different. Tau have all sorts of extra shenanigans to add to their gunline that makes it almost impossible to counter except with top tier armies and cheese lists. IG just get lumped in because they are the original "Gunline" army. Hell I remember running orks against the old Basilisks that was a blast...literally
IG are mid-tier at best. Trying to group them in with Eldar/Tau balance mistakes on a "boycott cheese" list shows a hilarious lack of understanding of the game.
You could never get a vote from a conservative like me.
I'm here to say that if you was running for the only office in the town
Not one person, and that was me, I wouldn't vote for you
You would never get a vote from a conservative...
I wouldn't give you a vote...
Mutatis mutandis, of course.
There's nothing fun about facing overwhelming numbers and having to pick up hand fulls of models at range because large numbers of barrage blasts.
If that's your idea of fun, then we're not really missing out by not playing against each other.
Traditio wrote: There's nothing fun about facing overwhelming numbers and having to pick up hand fulls of models at range because large numbers of barrage blasts.
Try not deploying your models in perfect template formation? Or using drop pods, flying transports, etc, to deliver your models into range before the artillery can do anything? Or using units with 2+ armor saves that can laugh off IG barrage weapons (which are all AP 3 or worse)? Or using bikes that can get in close asap and jink to mitigate the damage of blasts, on top of having larger bases that more easily exploit 2" coherence distance? In my experience with blast-heavy IG the only armies that spend the whole game removing models by the handful without accomplishing anything are poorly-designed armies that were going to lose horribly to pretty much anything played by people who made poor decisions like deploying their models in perfect template formation.
Traditio wrote: There's nothing fun about facing overwhelming numbers and having to pick up hand fulls of models at range because large numbers of barrage blasts.
Try not deploying your models in perfect template formation? Or using drop pods, flying transports, etc, to deliver your models into range before the artillery can do anything? Or using units with 2+ armor saves that can laugh off IG barrage weapons (which are all AP 3 or worse)? Or using bikes that can get in close asap and jink to mitigate the damage of blasts, on top of having larger bases that more easily exploit 2" coherence distance? In my experience with blast-heavy IG the only armies that spend the whole game removing models by the handful without accomplishing anything are poorly-designed armies that were going to lose horribly to pretty much anything played by people who made poor decisions like deploying their models in perfect template formation.
As I said. We're not missing anything by not playing against each other.
Ah yes, of course you'd proudly mention your blatant double standard where an IG player auto-losing and not having any fun is fine and you'll celebrate how great it is, but you auto-losing is a major problem and your opponent is morally wrong (and a TFG, of course) if they don't nerf their own army to give you a better chance of winning. I think it's very clear to everyone here that your standard for balance is "I win without having to change anything about my army or strategy", and everyone else should do all the hard work of changing to make this happen.
Ah yes, of course you'd proudly mention your blatant double standard where an IG player auto-losing and not having any fun is fine and you'll celebrate how great it is, but you auto-losing is a major problem and your opponent is morally wrong (and a TFG, of course) if they don't nerf their own army to give you a better chance of winning. I think it's very clear to everyone here that your standard for balance is "I win without having to change anything about my army or strategy", and everyone else should do all the hard work of changing to make this happen.
It's not my fault that your list isn't sufficiently well designed enough to deal with wraithguard. L2P.
Traditio wrote: It's not my fault that your list isn't sufficiently well designed enough to deal with wraithguard. L2P.
Don't worry, I'm adding this to my list of quotes to pull out any time you try to claim the moral high ground or argue that we should care about your list struggling to compete. It will go nicely next to the "how dare you buy a knight instead of giving your money to starving people in Africa" one.
Edit: because it's impossible to laugh at this too many times:
Traditio wrote: What could possibly justify spending $140 on an imperial knight? Seriously. Give me a list of reasons why someone would buy one. For every reason you list, I will be able to tell you why there's something wrong with that person.
Traditio wrote: You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa. How many bags of rice and beans do you think $140 could purchase?
Traditio wrote: You dropped $140 on a model because it's pretty? If you have $140 to drop on a random decoration, that's money that you could have donated to charity. While a pretty model is sitting on your shelf, people are starving in Africa. How many bags of rice and beans do you think $140 could purchase?
I'm just saying, Peregrine, it's not the prerogative of GW to make sure that clearly bad and poorly designed lists (or codices) are competitive.
Sure, there's a points system, and all. And your army list is probably perfectly legal and fluffy.
But you clearly suck at the game if you can't deal with wraithguard.
If Imperial Guard are so damn strong, where's all the Imperial Guard victories in major tournaments? Hell, I'd even be content with them making a major showing in the top 16 of various tournaments.
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
Not sure what army you play but the IG are not that strong at all right now. They can do well against the other Non-Competitive armies atm, but they get wiped out against all the other top tier lists. It has seriously gotten to the point with me where I do not want to play my IG anymore unless it is a fun game. Even then it is annoying sometimes. I don't complain and I love my IG but reality shows the stark difference of how weak the IG are right now compared to other armies in the game.
That is literally what I just said, they are competitive against other non-competitive armies like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, but they can't stand up to the cheese armies (SM, Tau, Eldar, Necron)
against the new orc supplement the guard is chanceless ...
WAAAAG in the first turn, ghazkull deathstar, charge at second turn and so on. guard can not win such a battle ...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Typically-Wardian wrote: @Traditio: Finally someone who sees sense. The IG are a damn powerful army.
Vaktathi wrote: I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.
That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.
What is with people and Cover Saves?
Cover Saves are useless this edition against any of the 'top tier' armies--and many of the 'bottom tier' armies have ways to deal with Cover Saves just as effectively.
Either it needs to be something that actually WORKS(i.e. Artillery) to prevent the HW teams from being one-shotted from range but still making them vulnerable to CC units; or HW point costs need to drop like rocks tied to anvils tied to a safe for Guard Infantry Squads and Guard Heavy Weapon Squads(note: not Veterans. The price is just about right for them).
If the concerns are that "T7 is too much for just a couple of guys with a tripod mounted gun and makes no sense for a Missile Launcher or Mortar Team!" or whatever garbage; then make MLs and Mortars into Special Weapons instead of Heavy Weapons; or attach a special rule of "Emplaced Position" to the tripod mounted weapons.
Why not give HW teams or even standard guardsmen the ability to dig in for a toughness increase at the price of losing the ability to move. Have it so they can start the game already dug in but anytime you dig in the movement phase you can't shoot, run, or charge that turn.
Dantes_Baals wrote:Because an earthshaker cannon is a monstrous piece of heavy forged steel artillery they can duck/take cover under. A LC that goes up to their knees and can be carried around by a two man team doesn't even begin to provide that kind of cover. There is no reason at all a krak missile should have an easier time wounding a carnifex than a pair of humans hiding behind a tin gunshield. We aren't even talking fluff anymore. This is straight up common sense.
And neither does a Riptide or Stormsurge being an MC and not a vehicle, or for that matter three Vindicators being able to suddenly fire a super shell or for that matter an ornamental spiky iron ring providing a 4++ save or just about half of the things in 40K, but your point is?
Edit: AND a 3+ vs shooting? Seriously man ; in addition to your wishlist for LRBTS to ignore basically ALL vehicle weaknesses and then some, why don't you go ahead and throw an "I win" Warlord trait in there with the other changes.
My wishlist of LRBT's to avoid all vehicle weaknesses? What, you mean the one that makes them useable again as opposed to the wast of points we have now? All I want them to do is to be able to move and fire their main gun and secondary weapons effectively, have some form of a save against damaging (both things that an MC and GMC can do) and for assaulters to have to attack its facing armour because right now LRBT's vanish as soon as the enemy reaches assault range. And for the stupid damage mechanic that has overflowing damage spread across the entire troop removed.
Do you even play Guard? Do you even know what it is like to play them? Have you ever had the wonderful privilege of having to set up your army only to have packed most of it back up by turn two? No? Well then, you should try playing an Imperial Guard army and good luck lasting past turn three.
Oh and that 3+? It is only vs shooting and, along with the T7, might actually see HWT's lasting beyond the first shooting phase.
Selym wrote:Perma cover save, points drop The dudes are hiding behind a HMG in spehss, and a couple of sandbags. They're not particularly durable.
Perma cover save would be nice but ultimately redundant with all the 'ignores cover' that flies around these days. T7 and a 3+ vs shooting thankyou very much.
I have no issue with bringing back lumbering behemoth. I thought it actually made a lot of sense. But Russes should be harder to assault, get an arbitrary save and ignore the glance/pen allocation rule on squadrons because... Why? I'm drawing a blank. Look man, non-skimmer vehicles just suck this edition. Everybody else has to deal with it, I don't see why IG shouldnt. Especially if there is no fluff or good reason for it. And T7 3+ vs shooting in an almost entirely shooting based edition is a pretty big deal. Even a boost to T5 would make zero sense. I get HWTS could use a hand, but outside of a permanent 4+ cover, the ability to overwatch and 20 points max for a HWT of any type don't see what else can be done. Maybe give them access to Camo netting? The whole "the most OP dexes in the game have stupid, nonsense rules so mine should too", doesn't really play well.
Because, unlike every other faction, the Imperial Guard rely upon our tanks for just about everything. Other factions have Infantry or MC's as their heavy hitters or go to units but we have our tanks and hell, some of us just want our damnable panzers to feel a little.. Well, you know, tankish. If you want fluff reasons then:
Save wise the Leman Russ are extremely robust with extra reinforcements and the like. This is represented by the save.
The Glance/Penetration thing should be universal to all factions but if you want to fluff it up then it represents Guard tank commanders not being congenitally stupid in areas regarding tank warfare
The harder to assault thing should also be a universal thing (it worked in 3rd edition and it would work really well now) but I am sure we can find some fluff reason to justify it.
The T7 vs shooting may seem a big deal to you but just look at how easy HWT's are to remove. They get plasma/S6+ sniped from across the board on turn one and no other faction I can think of has to cope with losing its big expensive support choices on the first turn because 'GW'. I just want my damn teams to last longer than it takes my opponent to cast his eye over them.
Oh and Tradito, never have I heard from someone so condescending as yourself. "IG are OP coz ma fancy swankies cant stand in da open infront of dem and not be hurt" is just such a valid arguement for declaring something to be OP. And, from what I can see, you play Eldar. Maybe it is YOU who should L2P?
Vaktathi wrote: I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.
That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.
What is with people and Cover Saves?
Cover Saves are useless this edition against any of the 'top tier' armies--and many of the 'bottom tier' armies have ways to deal with Cover Saves just as effectively.
Either it needs to be something that actually WORKS(i.e. Artillery) to prevent the HW teams from being one-shotted from range but still making them vulnerable to CC units; or HW point costs need to drop like rocks tied to anvils tied to a safe for Guard Infantry Squads and Guard Heavy Weapon Squads(note: not Veterans. The price is just about right for them).
If the concerns are that "T7 is too much for just a couple of guys with a tripod mounted gun and makes no sense for a Missile Launcher or Mortar Team!" or whatever garbage; then make MLs and Mortars into Special Weapons instead of Heavy Weapons; or attach a special rule of "Emplaced Position" to the tripod mounted weapons.
Cover is not universally ignored. I still usually get to take cover saves in most games, and likewise do my opponents. It's not as useful as it once was, I won't argue that, but it's not useless at all. If we just balanced everything around Eldar, Tau, and Librarian Conclave SM's, then we'd have to make IG equally absurd and that's not really a good solution. Cover is still useful, particularly in games against non-cheese'd out armies or against armies like Necrons, non-Psyker supported SM armies, and all the other armies that IG are roughly on par with but against which HWT's are garbage (e.g. GK's, Dark Eldar, Orks, CSM's, SoB's, etc). It would certainly give greater flexibility in deployment (as most HWT's are usually stuck trying to deploy in useful terrain currently), and give some additional protection against spammed AP4/5 shots.
As for Toughness, heavy weapons units are not on the scale of T7 artillery and shouldn't be treated as such. They're infantry with infantry carried weapons, not towed or self propelled artillery the way something like a Thudd Gun or Thunderfire Cannon is. A toned down version to T5 as I suggested might be reasonable both in gameplay and fluff terms, and nobody wants to hear the bemoaning that Sabre platforms brought at the beginning of 6th.
Vaktathi wrote: I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.
That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.
What is with people and Cover Saves?
Cover Saves are useless this edition against any of the 'top tier' armies--and many of the 'bottom tier' armies have ways to deal with Cover Saves just as effectively.
Either it needs to be something that actually WORKS(i.e. Artillery) to prevent the HW teams from being one-shotted from range but still making them vulnerable to CC units; or HW point costs need to drop like rocks tied to anvils tied to a safe for Guard Infantry Squads and Guard Heavy Weapon Squads(note: not Veterans. The price is just about right for them).
If the concerns are that "T7 is too much for just a couple of guys with a tripod mounted gun and makes no sense for a Missile Launcher or Mortar Team!" or whatever garbage; then make MLs and Mortars into Special Weapons instead of Heavy Weapons; or attach a special rule of "Emplaced Position" to the tripod mounted weapons.
Cover is not universally ignored. I still usually get to take cover saves in most games, and likewise do my opponents. It's not as useful as it once was, I won't argue that, but it's not useless at all. If we just balanced everything around Eldar, Tau, and Librarian Conclave SM's, then we'd have to make IG equally absurd and that's not really a good solution. Cover is still useful, particularly in games against non-cheese'd out armies or against armies like Necrons, non-Psyker supported SM armies, and all the other armies that IG are roughly on par with but against which HWT's are garbage (e.g. GK's, Dark Eldar, Orks, CSM's, SoB's, etc). It would certainly give greater flexibility in deployment (as most HWT's are usually stuck trying to deploy in useful terrain currently), and give some additional protection against spammed AP4/5 shots.
It absolutely is useless. Even Orks have easy ways of Ignores Cover spamming at this point.
Ever ran against an Ork Burna Bommer formation? Burna Boyz heavy force?
As for Toughness, heavy weapons units are not on the scale of T7 artillery and shouldn't be treated as such. They're infantry with infantry carried weapons, not towed or self propelled artillery the way something like a Thudd Gun or Thunderfire Cannon is. A toned down version to T5 as I suggested might be reasonable both in gameplay and fluff terms, and nobody wants to hear the bemoaning that Sabre platforms brought at the beginning of 6th.
Oh please. If an Ork Mek Gun is Artillery, then Heavy Weapon Teams are no different.
Sure, Orks have some Ignores Cover stuff. Every army does. That doesn't mean cover is useless just because sometimes you won't get to take it, same with armor. It doesn't mean that the vast majority of shooting ignores cover. Cover is still useful. If we're going to balance everything around "the only saves that exist are invul saves", well, we're going to run into problems.
As for Ork Mek Gunz, those are huge, significantly larger and more substantial than IG heavy weapons.
Vaktathi wrote: Sure, Orks have some Ignores Cover stuff. Every army does. That doesn't mean cover is useless just because sometimes you won't get to take it, same with armor. It doesn't mean that the vast majority of shooting ignores cover. Cover is still useful. If we're going to balance everything around "the only saves that exist are invul saves", well, we're going to run into problems.
As for Ork Mek Gunz, those are huge, significantly larger and more substantial than IG heavy weapons.
Aye, I still get cover against most stuff. The problem is that some of my opponents have just started bringing more 'Ignores Cover' stuff. As for HWT, maybe have them count as T5 vs shooting with a 4+ armour save? Kind of like a mini artillery rule.
SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads
IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.
Just saying.
I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".
IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.
Not sure what army you play but the IG are not that strong at all right now. They can do well against the other Non-Competitive armies atm, but they get wiped out against all the other top tier lists. It has seriously gotten to the point with me where I do not want to play my IG anymore unless it is a fun game. Even then it is annoying sometimes. I don't complain and I love my IG but reality shows the stark difference of how weak the IG are right now compared to other armies in the game.
That is literally what I just said, they are competitive against other non-competitive armies like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, but they can't stand up to the cheese armies (SM, Tau, Eldar, Necron)
against the new orc supplement the guard is chanceless ...
WAAAAG in the first turn, ghazkull deathstar, charge at second turn and so on. guard can not win such a battle ...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Typically-Wardian wrote: @Traditio: Finally someone who sees sense. The IG are a damn powerful army.
is this sarcasm?
New Ork Supplement, 1st off ORK NOT FETHING ORC God that burns me, this is 40k not the hobbit.
That formation your talking about that allows ghaz to waaagh first turn requires over 1,100pts (not fully upgraded) just for that ability. And most of those points are wasted on useless crap. As far as the GHaz Death star? How many death stars do you know of that only have 1 model with an invulnerable save? Here is a quick/easy lesson on beating the Orkurion, If you get 1st move then shoot the feth out of ghaz's deathstar, because he doesn't get his Invul until his turn, so a handful of blasts will kill all the nobz and some AP2 lascannons will burn out the warbosses pretty quickly. Boom your left with Ghaz, naked and alone (he isn't allowed to join other squads because of formation restrictions/detachment restrictions. Once he is dead the orks lose all benefits and boom your left with a useless ork force that is EXCEPTIONALLY open to ranged weapons. Furthermore you could just IGNORE the ghaz deathstar and focus fire the trukks which your apparently afraid of, not a big concern for IG as they have a plethora of Blast/Ordinance and AP2 weapons capable of popping multiple trukks/BattleWagonz.
IG Vs ork is a fun matchup, but lets not pretend like the Ghaz supplement was even worth the paper it was re-printed on.
It absolutely is useless. Even Orks have easy ways of Ignores Cover spamming at this point.
Ever ran against an Ork Burna Bommer formation? Burna Boyz heavy force?
Orks do not have "Easy ways to ignore cover" at this point. Burna boyz? seriously? Expensive models with 6+ armor saves that have to be in an open topped vehicle to be remotely effective? that is what your afraid of? To even use them they have to be ON TOP of the unit with a cover save, and at that point it wouldn't matter anyway.
And the Burna Bommer formation? If your army is remotely scared of AV10 flyers then you need to do something drastic, like read the codex. Ork Flyers are utter trash, all of them.
I think that HWT should maybe have the option to "dig in" to represent them setting up sandbag emplacements and stuff like that. It would give them a 4+ cover save when out in the open if they entrench (maybe a bonus to their saves if they're already in cover?)
Let's make sure our posts have substance, I've had to remove at least 1 post that didn't. Don't call other users trolls or rude or whatever, just flag them and we'll deal with it. Thanks
Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.
Martel732 wrote: Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.
This is the exact problem. Infantry was always a middle of the road fluffy choice. You won some battles with a massed gun line, you lost some, but the Russes and artillery did most of the work. Mech vets was actually fun to play, you had mobility and firepower. Since vehicles were so severely nerfd (and MCs so strongly buffed), the Chimeras are no longer protection, they're coffins, Russes no longer last to see any decent damage out put (not to mention that many have been relegated to simply a single ordnance stationary gun platform) and artillery crumples to pretty much everything.
It'd be nice to HWS viable, but in reality, that's not what's crippling guard.
Martel732 wrote: Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.
This is the exact problem. Infantry was always a middle of the road fluffy choice. You won some battles with a massed gun line, you lost some, but the Russes and artillery did most of the work. Mech vets was actually fun to play, you had mobility and firepower. Since vehicles were so severely nerfd (and MCs so strongly buffed), the Chimeras are no longer protection, they're coffins, Russes no longer last to see any decent damage out put (not to mention that many have been relegated to simply a single ordnance stationary gun platform) and artillery crumples to pretty much everything.
It'd be nice to HWS viable, but in reality, that's not what's crippling guard.
^^ This. Just to have my tanks be effective I would gladly sacrifice my Infantry.
Martel732 wrote: Look guys. IG got trashed when vehicles got trashed. Yeah, they have a some nice stuff in parts of the list, but they can not stand toe to toe with the big boys.
This is the exact problem. Infantry was always a middle of the road fluffy choice. You won some battles with a massed gun line, you lost some, but the Russes and artillery did most of the work. Mech vets was actually fun to play, you had mobility and firepower. Since vehicles were so severely nerfd (and MCs so strongly buffed), the Chimeras are no longer protection, they're coffins, Russes no longer last to see any decent damage out put (not to mention that many have been relegated to simply a single ordnance stationary gun platform) and artillery crumples to pretty much everything.
It'd be nice to HWS viable, but in reality, that's not what's crippling guard.
^^ This. Just to have my tanks be effective I would gladly sacrifice my Infantry.
master of ordinance wrote: Given that my infantry are good for nothing more than bubble wrap in most games.....
IG infantry do way more damage to me than the vehicles usually.
I really think the IG should be more about the BALANCE of infantry and tanks/artillery. Much like the armies they are based on they need both to be effective. Tanks/artillery need infantry to take points and to protect them from assault. Infantry need tanks/artillery to do the heavy lifting of damage and to provide mobile cover.
Thats one of the reasons I really liked the idea of the new Armoured Shield formation from the Start Collecting! box set, since it gave you a 4+ cover save for being near the tank. Id be quite happy if they didnt change anything point wise for the Leman Russes, but made that rule universal to all of the different variants. For me this would synergize well with your infantry, let you have an "advancing gunline" with heavy duty ranged Russes hanging out in the back and providing cover for stuff like HWT while the assault russes like demolishers and punishers push the enemy position with infantry in tow claim objectives and ward off attackers.
Poor vehicle rules this edition & weak guardsmen aside, one thing I'm not seeing alot of people bring up is:
No reliable dedicated counter assault units in the codex.
Literally. None. Rough riders & Bullgryn/Ogryn are garbage.
Bullgryn cost almost 33% more points base than Wolfen yet lack any of their awesome special rules. Slab shield Bullgryn must take grenade launchers which does not give them any close combat utility. While power mauls +2S is nice, concussive does nothing for them. S10 melee power weapons are their greatest threat & are already hitting at initiative one. One hit is instant death regardless of their 3 wounds.
Ogryns, while slightly cheaper also have garbage melee. Their ripper guns offer no bonus to melee despite doing so in the lore. They should be +1S like in 3rd edition & offer rending.
Ogryn/Bullgryn also have a high armor save. That is acceptable as in most cases they are only wearing shirts or partial makeshift armor. What is not ok, is that their thick skin which is said to shrug off most wounds in the lore is not reflected at all. They should have 4+ FNP.
Lastly, their low leadership basically necessitates a babysitter such as commissar etc bloating their absurd costs even more.
Rough riders are only good for one charge & their lance breaks. Additionally its only AP3. Terrible.
All of the above is a major factor as to why IG is currently terrible. If the gunline is broken & sh*t gets into melee. Its over. Conscripts + priest more often than not only serve to slow your loss, not prevent it.
Griddlelol wrote: In all my years of playing guard, I never once cared about having a unit dedicated to counter assault.
What kind of players are you playing against? Almost half the armies out there can get into assault turn two. In our local meta we either have to deal with drop pods in your face, or 2+ squiggoths loaded up with orks with 15+ nob bikers alongside them & trucks all hitting you at once, or tyranids assaulting turn 1 with genestealer cult shenanigans. How do you even deal with that without allies? Guardsmen bubble wrap only goes so far & sending out sacrificial units ahead to try & tie up the enemy only prolongs your loss.
Griddlelol wrote: In all my years of playing guard, I never once cared about having a unit dedicated to counter assault.
What kind of players are you playing against? Almost half the armies out there can get into assault turn two. In our local meta we either have to deal with drop pods in your face, or 2+ squiggoths loaded up with orks with 15+ nob bikers alongside them & trucks all hitting you at once, or tyranids assaulting turn 1 with genestealer cult shenanigans. How do you even deal with that without allies? Guardsmen bubble wrap only goes so far & sending out sacrificial units ahead to try & tie up the enemy only prolongs your loss.
The problem is that there are no pod-borne BA left to assault on turn 2. Shooting still rules 7th ed.
Turn two never felt like a huge deal. At turn two I still have 90% of my units operating at 100%. That squad that wants to assault is usually shot up pretty good, and if they're survivable enough, I can always feed them a unit or two.
Sure I have to concentrate them down, but it's do that, or lose, so I usually pump everything I have into them.
Whenever I play as or against IG, turn three is usually the turn that starts with less than 25% of the IG forces remaining and ends with the IG player tabled. Even swapped armies with some pkayer inly to get the same result...
Selym wrote: Whenever I play as or against IG, turn three is usually the turn that starts with less than 25% of the IG forces remaining and ends with the IG player tabled. Even swapped armies with some pkayer inly to get the same result...
It's because once you get to around turn three the Company Command Squad is usually dead, which means the good Orders are gone.
Selym wrote: Whenever I play as or against IG, turn three is usually the turn that starts with less than 25% of the IG forces remaining and ends with the IG player tabled. Even swapped armies with some pkayer inly to get the same result...
It's because once you get to around turn three the Company Command Squad is usually dead, which means the good Orders are gone.
You can keep it alive by hiding it at the back somewhere. It does mean you get less of an area of use though.
"Are we talking about the same Infantry here Martel?"
Yes. Just because you don't understand how to use horde shooting doesn't mean my IG opponents don't. While they are losing badly to Eldar or Tau, they wipe the floor with BA from sheer shots. BA don't have fancy weapons or defenses. Also, it's amazing how much some primaris psykers help. And they aren't even allies.
Martel732 wrote: "Are we talking about the same Infantry here Martel?"
Yes. Just because you don't understand how to use horde shooting doesn't mean my IG opponents don't. While they are losing badly to Eldar or Tau, they wipe the floor with BA from sheer shots. BA don't have fancy weapons or defenses. Also, it's amazing how much some primaris psykers help. And they aren't even allies.
Oh but I do, and thats the point. Most SM and MEQ armies can remove an IG Infantry horde within a turn or two, long before it can make it into alpha strike range.
BA infantry are largely identical to SA and Vanilla infantry, they arent any less hard to kill. If volume of fire isnt doing it against SW's or Ultras, why would it do so against BA's?
Because volume of fire does work against ultra marine assault marines and grey hunters. What it doesn't work against, wolfstars and centstars, BA can't even field. Volume of fire, especially backed up by misfortune, cuts BA to pieces.
Also, quit letting your opponents list tailor. The IG infantry. becomes a MUCH bigger threat if you don't know to load up on flamers ahead of time. I don't have this luxury, and I struggle HARD against IG, because my lists are full of grav and melta.
And nobody's removing a horde with a 4++ from divination in one turn. Especially with BA.
Martel732 wrote: Because volume of fire does work against ultra marine assault marines and grey hunters. What it doesn't work against, wolfstars and centstars, BA can't even field. Volume of fire, especially backed up by misfortune, cuts BA to pieces.
Okay, so we can hose the enemy with firepower. If they get within range. And the horde is still alive.
Also, quit letting your opponents list tailor. The IG infantry. becomes a MUCH bigger threat if you don't know to load up on flamers ahead of time. I don't have this luxury, and I struggle HARD against IG, because my lists are full of grav and melta.
I dont. Unfortunately my club works primarily on the principle of arranging games ahead of time so my opponent knows that he will be facing me and he knows that I have IG. There is little that I can do about this - I have tried surprise units, allies and changes but the advantage of these usually only lasts one game or two, at which point my opponent just throws in yet another big buff unit.
And nobody's removing a horde with a 4++ from divination in one turn. Especially with BA.
4++ which one first has to pay through the nose for an overpriced and very fragile psyker for and then pray that they draw/roll said power.
I'd start refusing to play vs those who list tailor. It gives too many advantages to lists that are already unfair.
Your hordes are fine against ba, because ba shooting is awful.
I have run into lists with six primaris psykers. They have powers and dice to get them off. They are not fragile with divination buffs. They guy who runs it almost always wins vs da and lists worse than da.
Martel, just because BA have a hard time against IG does not mean that IG are fine. Neither does it mean that our opponents list tailor in order to win.
Selym wrote: Martel, just because BA have a hard time against IG does not mean that IG are fine. Neither does it mean that our opponents list tailor in order to win.
I never said that. I was talking about da and below. IG psker heavy is really bad for ravenwing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: To tell the truth, the only Marine list I do not fear is one filled with Grav. Sadly Grav spam is somewhat rare at the moment (in my Meta at least)
Sounds like you don't understsnd how to play against marines. There are so many bad marine lists.
Selym wrote: Martel, just because BA have a hard time against IG does not mean that IG are fine. Neither does it mean that our opponents list tailor in order to win.
I never said that. I was talking about da and below. IG psker heavy is really bad for ravenwing.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
master of ordinance wrote: To tell the truth, the only Marine list I do not fear is one filled with Grav. Sadly Grav spam is somewhat rare at the moment (in my Meta at least)
Sounds like you don't understsnd how to play against marines. There are so many bad marine lists.
Ive been considering throwing in a Librarius Conclave with tiggy to help shore up my weaknesses. If I was being really nasty and I rolled that phased geo power (with ignore LOS and cover) I could stick him with some medusas or even have him hit some tanks with it.
But then im not playing just my IG, and that is the problem
Something to consider. Are we talking about pure IG's? Because seems very few play any pure X armies these days...Maybe Tau and Eldar but even they often take allies.
4++ inv can be gained for example in number of ways besides IG psykers. Not even neccessarily with psyker.
(but similarly I don't expect to play pure BA either. Pure anything is more like fluke these days)
My cheapness makes me a fluke, I guess. I'm not even really willing to fork out the money to make red marines. There's about 400 bucks of models I would need: centurions, land speeder storms, stalkers, etc.
I am also going to try a Librarian Conclave out. I will give them White Scars chapter tactics and put them in a blob (Hit & Run + ATSKNF). Divination buffs are amazing for guard and, as mentioned above, the new Phase Form power plus something like a Medusa Siege Gun seems like a good idea.
About the morale and discipline of Cadian troops and other famous Astra Militarum regiments:
Some wrote that the Cadian regiments don't use Commissars very often - where is this information from?
I know it's stated that Cadian troops are very disciplined and don't flee that easily but would you really say there's a difference between them and other regiments? Aren't they all categorized as tough and respectable regiments which dare to face any opponent? Maybe there's a difference between how often Commissars are included but that doesn't mean there's a morale and discipline difference... It could be because of tradition for regiments to use specific units and weapons more than other regiments.
Chaospling wrote: About the morale and discipline of Cadian troops and other famous Astra Militarum regiments:
Some wrote that the Cadian regiments don't use Commissars very often - where is this information from?
I know it's stated that Cadian troops are very disciplined and don't flee that easily but would you really say there's a difference between them and other regiments? Aren't they all categorized as tough and respectable regiments which dare to face any opponent? Maybe there's a difference between how often Commissars are included but that doesn't mean there's a morale and discipline difference... It could be because of tradition for regiments to use specific units and weapons more than other regiments.
As far as I know the only regiment out there that dosent "need" commissars for their intended purpose is Death Korps, because they are all incredibly suicidal and fearless. In the fluff DKoK actually need Commissars to PREVENT them from making suicidal charges. I could imagine this may be where the wires have crossed on that story, since both have insane backgrounds for how they build their regiments (i.e. Cadians can strip a lasgun before they can walk) or how DKoK are only given numbers for names and are essentially human necrons.
Chaospling wrote: About the morale and discipline of Cadian troops and other famous Astra Militarum regiments:
Some wrote that the Cadian regiments don't use Commissars very often - where is this information from?
I know it's stated that Cadian troops are very disciplined and don't flee that easily but would you really say there's a difference between them and other regiments? Aren't they all categorized as tough and respectable regiments which dare to face any opponent? Maybe there's a difference between how often Commissars are included but that doesn't mean there's a morale and discipline difference... It could be because of tradition for regiments to use specific units and weapons more than other regiments.
As far as I know the only regiment out there that dosent "need" commissars for their intended purpose is Death Korps, because they are all incredibly suicidal and fearless. In the fluff DKoK actually need Commissars to PREVENT them from making suicidal charges. I could imagine this may be where the wires have crossed on that story, since both have insane backgrounds for how they build their regiments (i.e. Cadians can strip a lasgun before they can walk) or how DKoK are only given numbers for names and are essentially human necrons.
The same sources for DKoK needing Commissars to prevent them from making suicidal charges are where the fluff comes from for Cadians not needing Commissars:
One-off sources in Black Library novels. DKoK got their blurb about Commissars from "Dead Men Walking" while Cadians got theirs from "Cadian Blood"--although "Cadian Blood" actually has a bit more meat to the fluff about their lack of Commissars.
Cadians don't generally have Commissars because they don't need them. The role that Commissars usually play(morale officer) isn't necessary when we're talking about guys who will hold the line in the face of daemons and still operate head and shoulders above the performance of other regiments. The other role that Commissars play(disciplinary officer/watchdog for a Psyker) is something that you could literally train any officer to do--and "Cadian Blood" has that being explicitly stated with Captain Thade having undergone training to recognize what would be an "Oh crap, something gribbly's about to happen" moment for the Regiment's Psyker.
The DKoK bit about Commissars was actually first in IA5. Im not sure if it is in the newest Vraks book since I do not have it on hand, but its not just from BL.
I do also recall a blurb from one of the 3e/4e books (eye of terror maybe?) About a Commissar being attaches to a cadian regiment and being very impressed by them during training. I'll have to look for it later.
Commissars also have roles beyond just shooting people for indiscipline, thats a relatively minor duty. They also act as tactical advisors, fill in for commands if officers arent present (dead/wounded/nobody experienced enough to lead an attack, etc), interface with ither regiments of vastly different cultural backgrounds and other elements of the Imperium such as the Inquisition or Administratum, etc. There's all sorts of reasons for Commissars to be attached to units which otherwise have excellent morale and discipline, for example like Storm Tropper/Scion units.
So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?
Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?
Chaospling wrote: So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?
Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?
I do not think that this thread is the right place for this discussion.
Chaospling wrote: So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?
Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?
Quite the opposite with Catachan, they may flee to save themselves to fight another day (everyone of them is a survivor) I believe that commissars in Catachan regiments are there to make sure that they are following orders, hence the frag rate of Commissars in their regiments is unusually high. As for ice warriors their commanders, such as chenkov, is very keen on using his men to clear minefields manually, which means walk until you explode, so they need commissars to put something even scarier than the enemy behind their lines in case someone decides not to be suicidally stupid.
Also for the previous comment all the loveliness about DKoK and commissars is in the new Vraks book, they just cut out some of fat from their fluff but kept most of the good tidbits.
And to get right back on track! One of my main problems with guard has been the issue of Leadership, the new decurion does help a little bit but I have been a commissar guy for a long time for both fluff and for reasons of flexibility (cant go to ground if you are fearless). Having to pass LD 7 on HWTs is awful, they should really have the option for a vox and a sgt. Banners help too with the 12in, Yarrick is great since he comes with that lovely warlord trait, but it would be nice to have some other mechanics in play.
Maybe I only roll high for leadership and low for armor saves?
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Their Decurion definitely needs to have less of a buy-in. Isn't it nearly 1000 for the core?
You are not required to take the Core, just the command squad, you can technically take an entire army of just CCS and Masters of Ordnance if you wanted to. You just gain more bang for you buck with the decurion special rules with massed orders and lasguns if you take the Emps Shield core
I think IG more than some armies has the right tone to their play style. I think they just need fine tuning. There point costs are generally too high, but making them cheaper creates a problem in that a regular gaming table can already be too crowded. Making them individually better runs a foul of the "marines are the best" rule... so there is a limit to the sort of improvement they can enjoy.
They should have more in the way of formations and vehicle squadron rules that represent the more synergistic abilities of the IG type of force. Things like infantry should be able to help coordinate and direct artillery and airstrikes. Or multiple Hellhounds lighting up the exact same are creating a billowing smoke screen. More than other armies IG should be defined by formations, because its precisely those sorts of things that distinguish different regiments.
Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.
We need a fighter and we should have a larger transport in the vein of the Gorgon but not superheavy.
aka_mythos wrote: I think IG more than some armies has the right tone to their play style. I think they just need fine tuning. There point costs are generally too high, but making them cheaper creates a problem in that a regular gaming table can already be too crowded. Making them individually better runs a foul of the "marines are the best" rule... so there is a limit to the sort of improvement they can enjoy.
They should have more in the way of formations and vehicle squadron rules that represent the more synergistic abilities of the IG type of force. Things like infantry should be able to help coordinate and direct artillery and airstrikes. Or multiple Hellhounds lighting up the exact same are creating a billowing smoke screen. More than other armies IG should be defined by formations, because its precisely those sorts of things that distinguish different regiments.
Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.
We need a fighter and we should have a larger transport in the vein of the Gorgon but not superheavy.
Agreed! Having squadrons used to be the Guard thing, so now that everyone gets it we should get something nice to go with ours, since we are no longer special! I love the idea of the Leman Russ giving a 4+ cover save to models within 6in like in that Start Collecting! formation, and that can really be synergistic and have one unit supporting the other in a meaningful way.
also they need to just make RR the same as Death Riders from DKoK minus the DK rule and the 6+ fnp. That would go a looooooong way to making them viable
Matt.Kingsley wrote: If by everyone you mean Space Marines (who then get super-special rules on top of it for no reason)
tau and eldar do stuff too if I recall (like combined fire prisms and better BS) the point is the one army that is known for its use of vehicle squadrons is the only one that gets no real benefit and all the downsides for using them
Oh, I didn't realise Eldar and Tau got new squadrons, too (beyond the squadrons they already had, Piranhas, Vypers and War Walkers). Apologies.
Honestly guard squadrons could be increased in size + bet a benefit for having 3+ (the later is the must at the very least), though I don't see GW doing it. Guard aren't Eldar, Tau or Space Marines after all .
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Oh, I didn't realise Eldar and Tau got new squadrons, too (beyond the squadrons they already had, Piranhas, Vypers and War Walkers). Apologies.
Honestly guard squadrons could be increased in size + bet a benefit for having 3+ (the later is the must at the very least), though I don't see GW doing it. Guard aren't Eldar, Tau or Space Marines after all .
Size increase is no solution. A gakky tank remains a gakky tank, no matter if you have 3 or 4 or 5 in one squadron. In addition the costs for a full squadron would be so high that nobody would play a full squadron and therefore would not get benefits.
Well, of course it should be coupled with making the tanks not gakky. It probably wouldn't be though, if it ever happened (because the SM vehicles didn't get better individually either, and if they didn't get buffed you can be as sure as hell that the Guard's won't)
I'm not saying a size increase would fix problems power-wise on its, but it'd certainly be fluffy and bring back some of the Guard's uniqueness with their vehicles. Also note I said the squadron bonuses should still only require a minimum of 3 vehicles (like the bonuses the other races get).
Matt.Kingsley wrote:Oh, I didn't realise Eldar and Tau got new squadrons, too (beyond the squadrons they already had, Piranhas, Vypers and War Walkers). Apologies.
Honestly guard squadrons could be increased in size + bet a benefit for having 3+ (the later is the must at the very least), though I don't see GW doing it. Guard aren't Eldar, Tau or Space Marines after all .
Rather than getting more I would like to see our tanks become a little cheaper, lose the damage spillover and be able to operate at an extended coherency instead of in a little huddle.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Their Decurion definitely needs to have less of a buy-in. Isn't it nearly 1000 for the core?
As others have said, you dont need the Infantry BUT fyou dont gain many bonuses if you leave them out. With the Infantry (and before any upgrades) the formation comes too 1080 points, or thereabouts. So, with over half your points spent on weak Infantry with no upgrades whatsoever, oh and several scout sentinels, you now have just under half your points for other units and upgrades
Matt.Kingsley wrote:If by everyone you mean Space Marines (who then get super-special rules on top of it for no reason)
We can but hope GW remember who the 'tank' army is when they update us
Kind of a random and different way of looking at things but I have had quite a bit of success with my Elysian drop troops in dealing with the top-tier armies as of late. Granted however this is more so due to the fact that my Army is somewhat of a gimmick and most top tier armies in my meta don't have enough to deal with it as effectively as they want. I run an Air Cavalry list which really helps with my mobility and surprisingly good durability as they need 6's to hit unless I run into the one Tau player at my store who spams Skyrays but he does that in every game he plays. It is definitely not an army for everyone though as most of my games consist of me maneuvering around the table before unleashing all of my infantry at once on Turn 3 or 4 in a massive strike to hopefully cripple their performance.
With standard guard the biggest issues I've run into that I feel needs fixing:
-Limited anti-monstrous creature capability, especially with hwts being so squishy it's hard to keep them alive even in cover nowadays. Thinking a Lemans Russ variant with a Grav Cannon type weapon for example would go a long way in helping.
-Leman Russes either get cheaper or get 4 hull points to justify their current points cost. Honestly the fact that Leman Russes are heavy tanks it would make perfect sense, also I think bringing in the FW variants like the Anihilator into the standard codex would help a lot, you can never have enough lascannons.
-Fix the internal balance of the Codex, this is a big one as currently there are only a few choices that are worth taking and others that no one even glances at. Infantry platoon need something more to make them seem more glamorous to pick over veterans for example. Fast attack wise the Vendetta is the clear winner, changing some things up with the hellhound variants (giving them all torrent for example) and points deduction would help. At this point either make Rough Riders the same stats as Death Riders (with Joust) or just get rid of them, there are no standard models for them and nobody takes them because of how awful they are. Just a few issues that I am using as examples for the internal balance issues.
Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.
The majority of Rough Riders literally are just Guardsmen with a Spear on a Horse.
also they need to just make RR the same as Death Riders from DKoK minus the DK rule and the 6+ fnp. That would go a looooooong way to making them viable
NOTHING will ever make Rough Riders viable or acceptable. Trash them from the main codex. Them and Ratlings need to get the hell out of the book and make way for something different.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Matt.Kingsley wrote: Well, of course it should be coupled with making the tanks not gakky. It probably wouldn't be though, if it ever happened (because the SM vehicles didn't get better individually either, and if they didn't get buffed you can be as sure as hell that the Guard's won't)
I'm not saying a size increase would fix problems power-wise on its, but it'd certainly be fluffy and bring back some of the Guard's uniqueness with their vehicles. Also note I said the squadron bonuses should still only require a minimum of 3 vehicles (like the bonuses the other races get).
Guard having more tanks doesn't help anyone. Vehicles that aren't Skimmers or SHWs or don't have an Invulnerable save are garbage.
It'd also make more sense for Guard tanks not to get bigger unit sizes but instead to get taken as Platoons.
Chaospling wrote: So maybe it's also part tradition that Cadian regiments don't have Commissars? Or did they anyway, because of reasons other than being a disciplinary officer?
Would you all say that Catachan Jungle Fighters and Valhallan Ice Warriors are more prone to flee than Cadians when facing more fearsome enemies?
I do not think that this thread is the right place for this discussion.
BTW: Vostroyans are the best!
I know it's more of a lore-question but I'm following these threads because I'm writing a Cadian codex, and I want to stay close to the background - so while listening to the rule discussions ( and believing that Cadians aren't that different, besides being experts with lasguns) the Commissars were mentioned. There are of course rules and point-costs which need attention, but none of you think that the more elite regiments need a 1+ to their Leadership or something like that?
Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.
The majority of Rough Riders literally are just Guardsmen with a Spear on a Horses.
First concepts can evolve and for several editions they were described as elite riders and elite warriors from their respective home worlds. That atleast warrants being on par with Veterans and getting an option for carapace armour. Second like I said even if they aren't updated, or simply get removed, IG need something to fill the this niche. It's a call to action in an either or sorta way.
Some people want IG to be an analog for a modern military force, but conceptually they are bigger than that. You can ignore the units that don't fit that vision. The Imperium doesn't waste and it takes any and all types of forces from planets as tithes. So while it may have modern elements just like a WWI or Inter-war army, where the IG draw influences, there are strong colonial force presence mixed in that takes a variety of forms. There are presently only 5 units in the codex that convey this Imperium wide draw of forces; storm troopers, Ratlings, Ogryns, engineers and rough riders. To drop any of those would be one of the greatest fundamental shifts in an armies character short of CSM losing daemons. It maybe what you want but you have to atleast acknowledge the shift.
Nobody knows why they made any of the changes with the last codex, aside from the Russ recostings and some cheaper Vet doctrines, pretty much all of them were pointless, a wrong fix, or a direct nerf, while they left most of the crap units to remain crap.
tau tse tung wrote: I will still never understand why they kept rough riders but got rid of marbo....
Because everything GW produces is entirely their own creation, and they never borrow IP elements from anyone else. They said it in court, so it must be true, even if it means getting rid of anything that might contradict it and pretending those things never existed.
tau tse tung wrote: I will still never understand why they kept rough riders but got rid of marbo....
Because everything GW produces is entirely their own creation, and they never borrow IP elements from anyone else. They said it in court, so it must be true, even if it means getting rid of anything that might contradict it and pretending those things never existed.
Guess they better cut the Space Marine and Necron lines then.
tau tse tung wrote: I will still never understand why they kept rough riders but got rid of marbo....
Because everything GW produces is entirely their own creation, and they never borrow IP elements from anyone else. They said it in court, so it must be true, even if it means getting rid of anything that might contradict it and pretending those things never existed.
Guess they better cut the Space Marine and Necron lines then.
a
And i'm sure Tolken would have a few works to say about the Eldar...
But really they could just put him back in with a different name if IP means that much to them.
Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.
The majority of Rough Riders literally are just Guardsmen with a Spear on a Horses.
First concepts can evolve and for several editions they were described as elite riders and elite warriors from their respective home worlds. That atleast warrants being on par with Veterans and getting an option for carapace armour. Second like I said even if they aren't updated, or simply get removed, IG need something to fill the this niche. It's a call to action in an either or sorta way.
Two of the three Guard books that I own say nothing about them exclusively as being "elite warriors" or "elite riders". It talks about them being from primitive worlds.
Here's from Doctrines book:
p46 wrote:Many primitive cultures retain the use of mounted infantry, and Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons have often benefited from the deployment of their brand of fast-moving support. Rough Riders can carry a variety of weapons, but the most famous is without doubt the explosive-tipped hunting lance.
The Cruddace book is the first mention of "elite" in there("On some planets the honour of riding a steed to war is reserved for the elite classes, formalised horse-warrior aristocracies that have accumulated generations of cavalry experience."), and they scrapped that entire half page of fluff they had to instead write something else entirely(which fits in a single paragraph) for C: AM.
Some people want IG to be an analog for a modern military force, but conceptually they are bigger than that. You can ignore the units that don't fit that vision.
No, you really can't. The stuff that would allow you to ignore that(Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapon Squads) are locked away within the Platoon structure or set up so that it can't be taken by anyone aside from that specific unit.
Sure you can make the argument that "you can just take that instead of the other options. Special Weapons with Sniper Rifles aren't different to Ratlings except for X, Y, or Z"--but they are different, and Ratlings do have X, Y, or Z, and you're being pigeonholed into running Platoons.
The Imperium doesn't waste and it takes any and all types of forces from planets as tithes. So while it may have modern elements just like a WWI or Inter-war army, where the IG draw influences, there are strong colonial force presence mixed in that takes a variety of forms. There are presently only 5 units in the codex that convey this Imperium wide draw of forces; storm troopers, Ratlings, Ogryns, engineers and rough riders.
Not true. Literally any unit you can take on the field can be used to "convey this Imperium wide draw of forces", since mixed Regiments are a thing.
It's effectively a cosmetic thing under the current rules, but still it's a thing.
To drop any of those would be one of the greatest fundamental shifts in an armies character short of CSM losing daemons. It maybe what you want but you have to atleast acknowledge the shift.
Which is why I keep saying we need to drop the charade of Codex: Imperial Guard being Codex: Imperial Guard. It hasn't been that since they removed Doctrines, it won't ever be that again until they bring Doctrines back or they go flying rodent gak crazy and do something even more radical like allowing for 'mixed Doctrine' armies(i.e. Cadians in command with a Catachan Jungle Fighter contingent).
Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.
The majority of Rough Riders literally are just Guardsmen with a Spear on a Horses.
First concepts can evolve and for several editions they were described as elite riders and elite warriors from their respective home worlds. That atleast warrants being on par with Veterans and getting an option for carapace armour. Second like I said even if they aren't updated, or simply get removed, IG need something to fill the this niche. It's a call to action in an either or sorta way.
Two of the three Guard books that I own say nothing about them exclusively as being "elite warriors" or "elite riders". It talks about them being from primitive worlds.
You're fixating. Being described as elites doesn't mean they're literally called elite. You want to talk about this instead of the fact as a tabletop unit they're currently in need of something more and that quite simply the concept of Cavalry hasn't been thoroughly explored and they have both a fictional basis and a historical influence that indicates they could be treated as a more elite force. That's quite frankly the "in" for updating them.
Some people want IG to be an analog for a modern military force, but conceptually they are bigger than that. You can ignore the units that don't fit that vision.
No, you really can't. The stuff that would allow you to ignore that(Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapon Squads) are locked away within the Platoon structure or set up so that it can't be taken by anyone aside from that specific unit.
Sure you can make the argument that "you can just take that instead of the other options. Special Weapons with Sniper Rifles aren't different to Ratlings except for X, Y, or Z"--but they are different, and Ratlings do have X, Y, or Z, and you're being pigeonholed into running Platoons.
I think GW should get rid of platoons. I think all the elements of the platoon should be split up allowing a more decentralized playstyle and I think platoons should be replaced with a variety of Platoon formations.
Why do Ratlings and Ogryn exist? -One part fantasy carry over, one part GW wanted a justifiable way to give IG units better than "human" stat lines. Its in that same vein that Rough Riders should be treated.
The Imperium doesn't waste and it takes any and all types of forces from planets as tithes. So while it may have modern elements just like a WWI or Inter-war army, where the IG draw influences, there are strong colonial force presence mixed in that takes a variety of forms. There are presently only 5 units in the codex that convey this Imperium wide draw of forces; storm troopers, Ratlings, Ogryns, engineers and rough riders.
Not true. Literally any unit you can take on the field can be used to "convey this Imperium wide draw of forces", since mixed Regiments are a thing.
It's effectively a cosmetic thing under the current rules, but still it's a thing.
To drop any of those would be one of the greatest fundamental shifts in an armies character short of CSM losing daemons. It maybe what you want but you have to atleast acknowledge the shift.
Which is why I keep saying we need to drop the charade of Codex: Imperial Guard being Codex: Imperial Guard. It hasn't been that since they removed Doctrines, it won't ever be that again until they bring Doctrines back or they go flying rodent gak crazy and do something even more radical like allowing for 'mixed Doctrine' armies(i.e. Cadians in command with a Catachan Jungle Fighter contingent).
Conceptual GW's really gone astray on the "Imperial" aspect of this army. I think it is fictionally one of the most distinctive elements of the Imperial Guard, that distinguishes it from other more generic representations of a human space army in other fictional settings. It works because its grim dark.
Mixed regiment aren't really a thing. GW wants to keep pretending the IG are all Cadian all the time I think we should have doctrines of some sort. Cadians in a jungle or Cadians on a desert are going to adapt and that should be reflected. The thing is even when doctrines were a thing, hardly anyone mixed regiments. and I think it's because the scale of a 40k game being about the size of military companies fighting each other doesn't really lend itself to mixing Regiments. On the tabletop armies tend to feel like armies because of a certain degree of repetition, so visually mixed regiments I think bring some dissonance in that regard. Ogryns, ratlings, and rough riders are by design standout units and almost inescapably represent detached units from a larger Imperial reservoir of forces. You're right that any unit could be used to convey a visual representation of this, but when GW only represents the most generic Cadians its hard for anything that isn't an Ogryn, Ratling, or Rough Rider to look foreign to the rest of the army.
Unit wise, Rough Riders need to get better and if they don't some other unit needs to come along to fill their niche. M have Sterngard and Vanguard, and in the same vein we should have Storm Troopers and Roughriders. They should be elite horsemen as removed and elevated from the average guardsmen as Veterans or Storm troopers, instead of just being guardsmen with a spear on a horse.
The majority of Rough Riders literally are just Guardsmen with a Spear on a Horses.
First concepts can evolve and for several editions they were described as elite riders and elite warriors from their respective home worlds. That atleast warrants being on par with Veterans and getting an option for carapace armour. Second like I said even if they aren't updated, or simply get removed, IG need something to fill the this niche. It's a call to action in an either or sorta way.
Two of the three Guard books that I own say nothing about them exclusively as being "elite warriors" or "elite riders". It talks about them being from primitive worlds.
You're fixating. Being described as elites doesn't mean they're literally called elite. You want to talk about this instead of the fact as a tabletop unit they're currently in need of something more and that quite simply the concept of Cavalry hasn't been thoroughly explored and they have both a fictional basis and a historical influence that indicates they could be treated as a more elite force. That's quite frankly the "in" for updating them.
I keep talking about this instead of the fact that they're a tabletop unit because Rough Riders effectively aren't a tabletop unit anymore. They're a holdover from the days of yore, where Conscripts could be given bomb collars and Imperial Beastmen were a thing.
Rough Riders have a codex option, and that's a damn sight more than that piece of crap unit deserves. Boot them to the curb and damn the consequences.
Some people want IG to be an analog for a modern military force, but conceptually they are bigger than that. You can ignore the units that don't fit that vision.
No, you really can't. The stuff that would allow you to ignore that(Special Weapon Squads, Heavy Weapon Squads) are locked away within the Platoon structure or set up so that it can't be taken by anyone aside from that specific unit.
Sure you can make the argument that "you can just take that instead of the other options. Special Weapons with Sniper Rifles aren't different to Ratlings except for X, Y, or Z"--but they are different, and Ratlings do have X, Y, or Z, and you're being pigeonholed into running Platoons.
I think GW should get rid of platoons. I think all the elements of the platoon should be split up allowing a more decentralized playstyle and I think platoons should be replaced with a variety of Platoon formations.
Platoons, as an organizational bit, are a good thing. The issue is that it's pre-Decurion/formation stuff. If we made Platoons as a "Core" Formation, with the composing elements turned into parts? It suddenly becomes a lot more interesting and viable as an organizational item for Guard.
Why do Ratlings and Ogryn exist? -One part fantasy carry over, one part GW wanted a justifiable way to give IG units better than "human" stat lines. Its in that same vein that Rough Riders should be treated.
Ratlings could be deleted and nobody barring the grognards would give a crap.
And unless Rough Riders become Centaurs, nah.
Conceptual GW's really gone astray on the "Imperial" aspect of this army. I think it is fictionally one of the most distinctive elements of the Imperial Guard, that distinguishes it from other more generic representations of a human space army in other fictional settings. It works because its grim dark.
Mixed regiment aren't really a thing. GW wants to keep pretending the IG are all Cadian all the time I think we should have doctrines of some sort. Cadians in a jungle or Cadians on a desert are going to adapt and that should be reflected. The thing is even when doctrines were a thing, hardly anyone mixed regiments. and I think it's because the scale of a 40k game being about the size of military companies fighting each other doesn't really lend itself to mixing Regiments. On the tabletop armies tend to feel like armies because of a certain degree of repetition, so visually mixed regiments I think bring some dissonance in that regard. Ogryns, ratlings, and rough riders are by design standout units and almost inescapably represent detached units from a larger Imperial reservoir of forces. You're right that any unit could be used to convey a visual representation of this, but when GW only represents the most generic Cadians its hard for anything that isn't an Ogryn, Ratling, or Rough Rider to look foreign to the rest of the army.
Ogryn/Bullgryns actually look acceptable within the Cadian organization. They really do.
Provided they don't paint them in the Militarum Tempestus colors like they did for the showcase army.
Give rough riders T4 2 wounds to represent the horse. Options to buy carapace and lance ccw laspistol. Or lasrifle 2 special weapons per five to represent seek and destroy cav. scouts. Tactical use of horse would be that it has no energy signature other than body heat. We all know GW can do some nice cavalry and a kit builds the two variants I just outlined would sell like hot cakes if the rules were tweaked a wee bit.
Ratlings could be deleted and nobody barring the grognards would give a crap.
Well, I mean, I would. Space hobbit snipers are awesome.
Question - how would the players and codex benefit from axing Ratling and Rough Riders? They're interesting and characterful units that are established parts of the background and let people make more specialized armies. Not so great in the rules department, but that can be fixed. Why get rid of them entirely, and why do Ogryn get a pass? Even if you're trying to make Codex: Cadians, I'd think there would be plenty of room for Rough Riders, at least.
I think a lot of the reason that many of the more "fantasy-ish" units (like Ratlings, Ogryn, Rough Riders) get ignored is because their rules have been garbage...forever.
Granted there is the obvious temptation by a lot of players to ignore them as being somewhat out of place in many IG armies, but when their rules have been awful in literally every edition the game has ever had, nobody is ever going to get very attached to them in the first place, much like Vespids. At least coming from the post 2E era, I don't think Ratlings, Ogryns or Rough Riders have ever had particularly functional rules and stats, so it's no surprise that nobody cares about them.
Also their models have largely either been garbage (RR's barring DKoK Death Riders, current & 2E Ogryns), or absurdly expensive (DKoK Death Riders, metal Ogryns).
Ratlings could be deleted and nobody barring the grognards would give a crap.
Well, I mean, I would. Space hobbit snipers are awesome.
Question - how would the players and codex benefit from axing Ratling and Rough Riders? They're interesting and characterful units that are established parts of the background and let people make more specialized armies.
They're not interesting and they're not characterful. "oh look, cowardly space hobbits that are cooks and somehow amazing marksmen too!" "oh look, guys riding horses. they're from the backwards planets and they wear grisly trophies--like Chaos, but we let them because reasons."
And really? "Let people make more specialized armies"? You would have a point if Ratlings or Rough Riders were able to be taken in large numbers or if they could replace Veteran or Infantry Squads.
But they can't be taken in large numbers or replace Veteran or Infantry Squads. Saying that they let people make more specialized armies is like claiming that the ability to take Terminators as Elite choices in C: SM lets you "make more specialized armies".
Simply being able to say "Hey I can take X" doesn't mean you can make a more specialized army. The ability to take that unit as a defining unit does. Running a Deathwing list or running a Strike Force Ultra with a First Company Veteran Strike Force composed solely of Terminators though makes a specialized army.
Not so great in the rules department, but that can be fixed. Why get rid of them entirely, and why do Ogryn get a pass?
Ogryn and Bullgryn get a pass because their plastic kits were actually designed to fit in with the Cadian aesthetic. They also get a pass because, unlike the Ratlings, they're combat units.
If you wanted to make something 'work' with Ratlings, it should be a purchaseable thing called "Ratling Sniper Support" and be something like a Strategic Asset you put into play where every enemy unit within a certain range of a designated unit has to take a number of Wounds or potentially have their leaders/attached characters blown away.
That's the only way that Ratlings could and should ever work.
Even if you're trying to make Codex: Cadians, I'd think there would be plenty of room for Rough Riders, at least.
There is not, nor ever should be room for Rough Riders again. They're a garbage unit that belong in the wastebins. Sorry for people who like them, but hey--I want them to stop cluttering up my Fast Attack.
I would rather they add some kind of Imperium bred hunting beasts or 'hunting servitor beasts' than keep the dumpsterfire that is Rough Riders around.
What about an elite stealth infantry themed regiment with lots of camo-cloak veterans, Storm Troopers, and ratling snipers? Or a Feudal world regiment with troops mounted in Chimeras supported by Rough Riders (bonus points for using models in plate armor to represent them!) Both of these ideas seem specialized and characterful to me, just as, I don't know...a Space Marine void-boarding-party list with the elite slots full of terminators seems specialized and characterful.
Why should Ratlings not have models on the tabletop? Because they're supposed to stay out of sight and snipe the enemy? So are Vindicares. So are Space Marine Scouts with sniper rifles. I like the idea of the sniper strategic asset thing, but I don't know how well it would work with the kind of game 40k wants to be. Neat, though.
There is not, nor ever should be room for Rough Riders again. They're a garbage unit that belong in the wastebins. Sorry for people who like them, but hey--I want them to stop cluttering up my Fast Attack.
Spinner wrote: Ah. 'Cause you don't like the concepts. Gotcha.
Because I don't like the concept, the concept has never done well, and there's a reason that Ratlings are still metal sculpts.
And also because THE CONCEPT WAS STUPID TO BEGIN WITH BUT AT LEAST FIT IN WHEN YOU HAD BEASTMEN STILL AS PART OF THE GUARD BECAUSE GUARD WERE LITERALLY JUST THE EMPIRE FROM WHFB IN SPACE.
What about an elite stealth infantry themed regiment with lots of camo-cloak veterans, Storm Troopers, and ratling snipers? Or a Feudal world regiment with troops mounted in Chimeras supported by Rough Riders (bonus points for using models in plate armor to represent them!) Both of these ideas seem specialized and characterful to me, just as, I don't know...a Space Marine void-boarding-party list with the elite slots full of terminators seems specialized and characterful.
Theme != Army Composition.
Your statement was that:
They're interesting and characterful units that are established parts of the background and let people make more specialized armies.
Specialized armies != Themed armies.
Why should Ratlings not have models on the tabletop? Because they're supposed to stay out of sight and snipe the enemy? So are Vindicares. So are Space Marine Scouts with sniper rifles. I like the idea of the sniper strategic asset thing, but I don't know how well it would work with the kind of game 40k wants to be. Neat, though.
Vindicares, unlike Ratlings, aren't cowards and will use their pistols to great effect. Mont'ka actually has this going on in the fluff book where the Vindicare has to gun his way through a cordon to get at his target. Space Marine Scouts outfitted with Sniper Rifles tend to serve as the 'advance element', and that's actually reflected what with the fact that they can purchase Teleport Homers on their Sergeants. They're also not a dedicated unit called "Space Marine Scout Snipers" in anything but the usage of the
There is not, nor ever should be room for Rough Riders again. They're a garbage unit that belong in the wastebins. Sorry for people who like them, but hey--I want them to stop cluttering up my Fast Attack.
Then, er...don't take them.
I don't usually.
You do understand that "not taking them" doesn't mean that it still isn't a slot wasted on a dumpster fire of a unit that could be replaced by something that isn't just "Lolz look--it's just like the Empire in WHFB was!"? With both Ratlings and Rough Riders just continually being copy/pasted from edition to edition to edition GW won't ever sit their designers down and say "Come up with something to replace this".
At the very least though, it looks like under Roundtree that might happen with the addition of the "Last Chance to Buy" thing.
If the Guard were the Empire in space, they would have had those beastmen's heads up on spikes. The Empire and Beastmen didn't get along all that well.
Theme != Army Composition.
All right, then, perhaps we've misunderstood each other as to what was meant by 'specialized'. How would you define it? Either way, they allow people to make 'themed' armies, then, which is hardly a bad thing.
Vindicares, unlike Ratlings, aren't cowards and will use their pistols to great effect. Mont'ka actually has this going on in the fluff book where the Vindicare has to gun his way through a cordon to get at his target.
Space Marine Scouts outfitted with Sniper Rifles tend to serve as the 'advance element', and that's actually reflected what with the fact that they can purchase Teleport Homers on their Sergeants.
So cowardly models shouldn't be on the tabletop at all, then? Guess we can axe grots and conscripts, too, and just do away with the whole leadership stat. Just because they're a bit twitchy in the face of enemy fire doesn't mean that they'd never be on the battlefield. Perhaps they know they're defending a vital area, or are fighting past the panic to support their friends...or, you know. The Commissar cornered them in the barracks and dumped them in a transport on the way to the front.
Ratlings also make excellent scouts, according to the fluff - reflected by their ability to Infiltrate. So there's another reason for them to be there.
Ironically, keeping them as off-board support would make Ratlings the best stealth/sniping troopers in the game.
You do understand that "not taking them" doesn't mean that it still isn't a slot wasted on a dumpster fire of a unit that could be replaced by something that isn't just "Lolz look--it's just like the Empire in WHFB was!"?
With both Ratlings and Rough Riders just continually being copy/pasted from edition to edition to edition GW won't ever sit their designers down and say "Come up with something to replace this".
Why would they ever do that? GW is all about the easy way forward, and it would be easier to switch a few values to make Rough Riders workable than to come up with something entirely new. Admittedly, it would be even easier just to have them be the exact same thing as before...but both of those are more likely than cutting them out and coming up with something new to 'fill the slot'. Even if they would. A whole suite of artillery disappeared last time, replaced with one new model...why would they have anything to replace just one unit if they cut it?
And what's with the 'it's just like the Empire'? Lots of armies throughout history have had cavalry. Rough Riders aren't even particularly Empire-ish; they have explosive spears instead of pistols as their main weapons (Outriders) and are lightly armored (Imperial Knights).
You do understand that "not taking them" doesn't mean that it still isn't a slot wasted on a dumpster fire of a unit that could be replaced by something that isn't just "Lolz look--it's just like the Empire in WHFB was!"?
Their existence isn't wasting anything nor preventing anything else from being added. Rough Riders certainly didn't prevent the inclusion of the Valkyrie, Vendettta, Devil Dog, or Bane Wolf to the FA slots for example.
With both Ratlings and Rough Riders just continually being copy/pasted from edition to edition to edition GW won't ever sit their designers down and say "Come up with something to replace this".
You're assuming this is how GW works, we've clearly seen they largely don't really care what currently exists and just toss in whatever Marketing tells them to. That's how we got Centurions over Terminators, and Wraithknights over Wraithlords. If they want something similar but "better", they'll just add it on top
They've also re-worked units in their entirety before without replacing them entirely. DE Mandrakes, Talos, and Grotesques for example, they didn't need to go away for GW to rework their entire concept (even if they still ended up being garbage afterwards )
Spinner wrote: If the Guard were the Empire in space, they would have had those beastmen's heads up on spikes. The Empire and Beastmen didn't get along all that well.
The Empire in WHFB didn't get along all that well--but the idea behind the initial Imperial Army was that they made use of conscripted abhumans to serve as meatshields--aka Beastmen.
Theme != Army Composition.
All right, then, perhaps we've misunderstood each other as to what was meant by 'specialized'. How would you define it? Either way, they allow people to make 'themed' armies, then, which is hardly a bad thing.
Specialized means that an army can perform a unique role or function. Elysians are a specialized army in that they're a Deep Strike/airborne army.
Vindicares, unlike Ratlings, aren't cowards and will use their pistols to great effect. Mont'ka actually has this going on in the fluff book where the Vindicare has to gun his way through a cordon to get at his target.
Space Marine Scouts outfitted with Sniper Rifles tend to serve as the 'advance element', and that's actually reflected what with the fact that they can purchase Teleport Homers on their Sergeants.
So cowardly models shouldn't be on the tabletop at all, then? Guess we can axe grots and conscripts, too, and just do away with the whole leadership stat. Just because they're a bit twitchy in the face of enemy fire doesn't mean that they'd never be on the battlefield. Perhaps they know they're defending a vital area, or are fighting past the panic to support their friends...or, you know. The Commissar cornered them in the barracks and dumped them in a transport on the way to the front.
Have you actually read the fluff on Ratlings?
Or the rules?
Ratlings also make excellent scouts, according to the fluff - reflected by their ability to Infiltrate. So there's another reason for them to be there.
Yeah...and so do Guard Veterans specializing in Recon. Or Sentinel Squadrons. Or literally anything but cowardly Halflings.
Ironically, keeping them as off-board support would make Ratlings the best stealth/sniping troopers in the game.
Sure it would...until you realize that like any off-board support asset it would be a one time thing.
You do understand that "not taking them" doesn't mean that it still isn't a slot wasted on a dumpster fire of a unit that could be replaced by something that isn't just "Lolz look--it's just like the Empire in WHFB was!"?
With both Ratlings and Rough Riders just continually being copy/pasted from edition to edition to edition GW won't ever sit their designers down and say "Come up with something to replace this".
Why would they ever do that? GW is all about the easy way forward, and it would be easier to switch a few values to make Rough Riders workable than to come up with something entirely new. Admittedly, it would be even easier just to have them be the exact same thing as before...but both of those are more likely than cutting them out and coming up with something new to 'fill the slot'. Even if they would. A whole suite of artillery disappeared last time, replaced with one new model...why would they have anything to replace just one unit if they cut it?
"A whole suite of artillery" being four unit entries, of which only one had a GW model(the Basilisk) and the remaining three(Griffon, Colossus, Medusa) being FW items.
Remember that the Cruddace book had a decent number of items(Colossus, Medusa, Manticore, Griffon, Hydra, the Vanquisher, Executioner, Exterminator, and the Vendetta) which weren't GW items proper at their launch.
The Cruddace book is best summed up as a mixture of Imperial Armour v1 and C: IG from before. Are you really that surprised that when the next book came out they removed the Griffon, Colossus, and Medusa from the GW Codex?
And what's with the 'it's just like the Empire'? Lots of armies throughout history have had cavalry. Rough Riders aren't even particularly Empire-ish; they have explosive spears instead of pistols as their main weapons (Outriders) and are lightly armored (Imperial Knights).
If you can't figure out what's meant by "Just like the Empire":
The Empire was known for the fact that they would field armies not just consisting of one province when they would go to war. You might have Huntsmen from the province of Stirland(a backwater) serving as scouts and skirmishers for an artillery train from Nuln(the manufacturing capital of the Empire) which was further supported by a Knightly Order(Space Marines).
The Empire in WHFB didn't get along all that well--but the idea behind the initial Imperial Army was that they made use of conscripted abhumans to serve as meatshields--aka Beastmen.
Right, which is why Beastmen used to be a thing in 40k, just like Squats and all the stuff that didn't disappear. I understand that, but the way you worded your last post made it sound like you were arguing the Empire used beastman conscripts as expendable troops.
Specialized means that an army can perform a unique role or function. Elysians are a specialized army in that they're a Deep Strike/airborne army.
Okay. Well, for starters, the Chimera/Rough Rider army would make a fairly plausible aggressive force in a way you don't usually see the Guard do. The Riders could use the Chimeras for cover while they moved up and protect their flanks from enemy infantry, and then they could pop out from behind and charge soft targets. Would it do well in the current game environment? Probably not, but that's not the fault of the concept of Rough Riders.
Have you actually read the fluff on Ratlings?
Or the rules?
...yes?
Not sure what you're arguing here. That Ratlings are too cowardly to ever deploy? That clearly isn't the case. That they die if the enemy so much as looks at them on the tabletop? I don't think anyone's going to argue otherwise.
Yeah...and so do Guard Veterans specializing in Recon. Or Sentinel Squadrons. Or literally anything but cowardly Halflings.
Well, not clumsy Ogryn or giant tanks. Why shouldn't cowardly halflings ever show up to a fight? Simply because they're cowardly? That's why Commissars exist, to put some backbone into abhuman shirkers! And...human shirkers. And people who look a little shifty in general.
Sure it would...until you realize that like any off-board support asset it would be a one time thing.
Well, it wouldn't have to be, since we're spitballing concepts here. But even if it was, so what? They clearly got in, took their shots, and got out - exactly what a sniper is supposed to do. Meanwhile, that supposedly elite Vindicare is stuck within small-arms-range of the enemy, trying to keep his head down while they aim every Ignores Cover gun they have his way.
Go, Kilbo Fraggins, go!
"A whole suite of artillery" being four unit entries, of which only one had a GW model(the Basilisk) and the remaining three(Griffon, Colossus, Medusa) being FW items.
Remember that the Cruddace book had a decent number of items(Colossus, Medusa, Manticore, Griffon, Hydra, the Vanquisher, Executioner, Exterminator, and the Vendetta) which weren't GW items proper at their launch.
The Cruddace book is best summed up as a mixture of Imperial Armour v1 and C: IG from before. Are you really that surprised that when the next book came out they removed the Griffon, Colossus, and Medusa from the GW Codex?
I think most of us were, yes, judging from the reaction at the time. Not what I was arguing, though. There's no set number of slots. Dropping one unit doesn't mean they add another.
If you can't figure out what's meant by "Just like the Empire":
The Empire was known for the fact that they would field armies not just consisting of one province when they would go to war. You might have Huntsmen from the province of Stirland(a backwater) serving as scouts and skirmishers for an artillery train from Nuln(the manufacturing capital of the Empire) which was further supported by a Knightly Order(Space Marines).
Yes, again, I'm familiar with the fluff, and, again, what you said sounded a bit like something else. Apologies for any confusion, but the way you worded it made it seem like Rough Riders were only there to be Empire Cavalry in Spehss, when their typical role, fluff, and appearance really doesn't resemble any of the Empire's cavalry all that well.
I want exactly the opposite. Doctrines galore, more fluff about regiments from planets that don't start with the letter C, and a rework of problematic units rather than shuffling them off.
I actually agree Rough Riders are stupid. They work with Krieg, but not elsewhere. It honestly would be for the best if they just removed them from the parent codex.
Doctrines are never, ever, ever, ever coming back in the way people want them to. If they come back it's going to be like Space Marines, where Doctrines are nothing but a "once per game" thing that does something for you--and which you basically have to either play a Battle Demi-Company or Ultramarines in order to utilize the damn things.
Problematic units(read: Ratlings, Rough Riders, and Scions) need to be cut from the book. Ratlings and Rough Riders have not and never will actually contribute anything useful to the primary Guard book--beyond being a good way to spot a newbie to the game or someone who had the models from back in 'the old days'. DKoK have their version, which FW was smart enough to even change the name of to "Death Riders" just to avoid the connotation of suckery that comes from the Rough Riders label.
Scions as their own book works a lot better than people think, especially if GW changes the title to be "Astra Militarum: Tempestus Scions" and makes it so that Orders affect "all units with the Astra Militarum faction"(spoiler: Scions would fall under that in this version) but Tempestus Orders don't affect anyone but Scions and they put the Orders for both factions combined into both books.
I run my rough riders with my knights much the way described by spinner. Keeping just behind my knights to dart out and feth up grav bikers or other bum rush types. Results are mixed but fun and fluffy. The knight houses have men at arms so I use guard codex to represent that.
This thread has so far served to remind me that Ratlings and Rough Riders still exist in my codex. To be honest I was having trouble remembering that I had an Elites section, never mind remembering units like Ratlings and RR's existed.
It's unfortunately the GW rule that Marine must always be better, that limits IG. Where IG elites end up being about a single extreme which makes them so narrowly beneficial they're mostly overpriced. I like Ratlings and I think they're fairly priced. They've never won me any games but what IG unit consistently does?
Honestly I see IG and their tanks as the orks or tyranids of humanity. All this talk about making them tougher and more savable... most of their stuff is over costed for what they get, but an "elite" IG makes very little sense to me, they should have a high model count and take large amounts of casualties to get the job done. some of the stuff floated here like making heavy weapons teams t7 with a 3+ cover... seriously for the points that is absurd. What makes HWT good is that you can take a gak ton of them, they should be about 1/2 the points cost so you get a ton of shots and a ton of models. The exemptions are leman russ tanks which should be pretty beefy per the fluff and are the oen thing that is not just thrown away in droves to get something done.
) will make for some hilarity along with FRSRF.
