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 Vaktathi wrote:
I'm really not a fan of just free stuff. Chimeras need a points drop, but the core vehicle rules really are the biggest issue. Get them back to 55pts with a 5E style vehicle kill system and theyll be golden.

I have no problem with free things as long as it comes with a downside. If you want mech vets then free chimeras is nothing but good, if they limited it to a "blitzkrieg formation"** then I would probably be ok with it.

**Infantry must take a chimera, and no artillery, they're moving too fast for lumbering artillery support.

This is just off the top of my head, but just an overall decrease in chimera cost would be fine, that, or a change in rules so vehicles don't pop open with as little as a mean look.

I'd be cool with Chimera at 45 or 50 points a pop. 65 is pretty ridiculous considering what a devilfish gets for 15 points more.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I'd be cool with Chimera at 45 or 50 points a pop. 65 is pretty ridiculous considering what a devilfish gets for 15 points more.

Of course the devil fish isnt exactly the paragon of good transports either, it just gets to jink. Once again a flaw with the basic rules that seems to make it that much harder to balance out guard. Besides, Chimeras SHOULD be cheap, Guardsman are supposed to be using light throwaway vehicles so they should be dirt cheap. I would argue for something in the 30-40 range. they would be slightly better than Rhinos in the point to vehicle ratio but the whole point is that its a disposable vehicle that I can spam relentlessly.

Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.

The RH1N0 has side armour 11 which basically makes it immune to small arms fire. The Chimera suffers from SA 10 which means it gets rapid fired to death by most infantry.

On the topic of things we need:

The Chimera needs to come down to 40-45 points and gain a side armour of 11

Leman Russ need an invun save of 5+ or better and the old Lumbering Behemoth rules returned. They also need to be able to overwatch

Remove the damage spread from squadrons

Let Squadrons split up and remove/increase the coherency range

Make it so that enemy units assaulting a tank have to hit the facing armour, not the rear. Tanks are still vulnerable but now positioning is a lot more important

Bring EVERYTHING down in price

.... And a whole heap of other things. I really cannot be bothered posting all the fixes any more. If people want them they can find them in all of the other threads like this one out there.

Right now playing IG is not fun. It is incredibly hard for me to last beyond turn three and now that my most regular opponent has abandoned 40K and now insists on bringing 30K armies to every game I have pretty much stopped playing.
"Well, my shot kills 8 of your Marines"
'No, my sarge has Artificer armour' *He starts rolling dice one at a time, each save passed dropping a wound*
"Well that was pointless"
'What are you on about? Your cannon killed those two guys stood in front of the sergeant '

Or:

'I fire my Typhon at the squad in that ruin.... all 10 of those guys hit, and another 8 from that section and that tank is clipped and I catch that rapier too'
*rolls dice*
'Okay, their all dead and I penetrated the tank.... And it is dead too'
"Well I get cover sa-"
'No you dont, the Typhon ignores cover. Now I am going to fire these ten missile launchers at your surviving two tanks'

Yeah, well at least he cannot bring the Line breaker or formations with his 30K Marines.
Yet.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.

The RH1N0 has side armour 11 which basically makes it immune to small arms fire. The Chimera suffers from SA 10 which means it gets rapid fired to death by most infantry.

On the topic of things we need:

The Chimera needs to come down to 40-45 points and gain a side armour of 11

Leman Russ need an invun save of 5+ or better and the old Lumbering Behemoth rules returned. They also need to be able to overwatch

Remove the damage spread from squadrons

Let Squadrons split up and remove/increase the coherency range

Make it so that enemy units assaulting a tank have to hit the facing armour, not the rear. Tanks are still vulnerable but now positioning is a lot more important

Bring EVERYTHING down in price

.... And a whole heap of other things. I really cannot be bothered posting all the fixes any more. If people want them they can find them in all of the other threads like this one out there.

Right now playing IG is not fun. It is incredibly hard for me to last beyond turn three and now that my most regular opponent has abandoned 40K and now insists on bringing 30K armies to every game I have pretty much stopped playing.
"Well, my shot kills 8 of your Marines"
'No, my sarge has Artificer armour' *He starts rolling dice one at a time, each save passed dropping a wound*
"Well that was pointless"
'What are you on about? Your cannon killed those two guys stood in front of the sergeant '

Or:

'I fire my Typhon at the squad in that ruin.... all 10 of those guys hit, and another 8 from that section and that tank is clipped and I catch that rapier too'
*rolls dice*
'Okay, their all dead and I penetrated the tank.... And it is dead too'
"Well I get cover sa-"
'No you dont, the Typhon ignores cover. Now I am going to fire these ten missile launchers at your surviving two tanks'

Yeah, well at least he cannot bring the Line breaker or formations with his 30K Marines.
Yet.

Sounds like a typical power-gamer tool lol. Have a few people like him at my store and I have learned not to play 30k armies. One guy got mad when I turned him down and the reason was simple, good 30k Space Marines with 30k rules vs an Outdated, Bottem Tier Codex using 40k rules. Sorry but you can't play a 40k game if your opponent is using 30k rules and you are using 40k rules. It's not even close.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
Isn't the devilfish 12/12/10 With a Burst cannon and drones? Anyway I think it should be at least 45 because of the scatter laser and HB. Both of those are 5 pts in the armory and the chimera has basically the same AV as a Rhine which is 35 pts.

The RH1N0 has side armour 11 which basically makes it immune to small arms fire. The Chimera suffers from SA 10 which means it gets rapid fired to death by most infantry.

On the topic of things we need:

The Chimera needs to come down to 40-45 points and gain a side armour of 11

Leman Russ need an invun save of 5+ or better and the old Lumbering Behemoth rules returned. They also need to be able to overwatch

Remove the damage spread from squadrons

Let Squadrons split up and remove/increase the coherency range

Make it so that enemy units assaulting a tank have to hit the facing armour, not the rear. Tanks are still vulnerable but now positioning is a lot more important

Bring EVERYTHING down in price

.... And a whole heap of other things. I really cannot be bothered posting all the fixes any more. If people want them they can find them in all of the other threads like this one out there.

Right now playing IG is not fun. It is incredibly hard for me to last beyond turn three and now that my most regular opponent has abandoned 40K and now insists on bringing 30K armies to every game I have pretty much stopped playing.
"Well, my shot kills 8 of your Marines"
'No, my sarge has Artificer armour' *He starts rolling dice one at a time, each save passed dropping a wound*
"Well that was pointless"
'What are you on about? Your cannon killed those two guys stood in front of the sergeant '

Or:

'I fire my Typhon at the squad in that ruin.... all 10 of those guys hit, and another 8 from that section and that tank is clipped and I catch that rapier too'
*rolls dice*
'Okay, their all dead and I penetrated the tank.... And it is dead too'
"Well I get cover sa-"
'No you dont, the Typhon ignores cover. Now I am going to fire these ten missile launchers at your surviving two tanks'

Yeah, well at least he cannot bring the Line breaker or formations with his 30K Marines.
Yet.

He took a Typhon against guard? Was he afraid of not tabling you or something?

Sadly, if you read MoO's other posts, this is par for the course with his opponent. He gives the rest of us Marine players a bad name

The Guard need a big overhaul in too many things to count.

Tanks, Artillery, Point prices, fire power, survivability for everything in general, I know that guard are supposed to be squishy and die in droves, but everything out there makes a 50 man blob vanish in a single turn *cough* Elderp *cough*. Tanks die by being looked at funny, etc...


The list is practically endless.

Rip up the Codex, remove any non-Cadians and non-Ogryn. Yes that includes Scions.

Codex: Cadian Shock Troops. Begin fresh.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:
To a lot of them, they feel that the Imperial Guard are a bad army right now as they need a major update to be competitive in this Edition. This of course lead to a debate and by the end of it, I couldn't do much to convince them despite winning 2 games.

My apologies for the somewhat asinine analogy, but:

Imagine you were all on a night out and nobody believed you could meet women. You go straight over to one woman, have a dance with her and a laugh, and get her number. A bit later that night you do the same thing again with a different woman. If these people were still unconvinced that you could get a woman, would you think that they have a valid point, or would you think they were idiots whose opinions should be flushed down the bog?

(I'm not calling anti-Guard players idiots, just people who aren't convinced by what's right in front of them)

one thing I'd like to see is guard vehicle get the "full squadron bonus" marine tanks get right now. it's a neat idea

Actually when he said "I love to play IG and they are fun.." That should be the end of any debate in his head. It's a game and he's having fun. IG will get their codex update in time and those same players will whine about how you "just bought them to play because they are new and OP"

 Fido198674 wrote:
IG will get their codex update in time and those same players will whine about how you "just bought them to play because they are new and OP"

This assumes the next IG codex update actually does anything for them. The last codex didn't really fix anything with the army, the next one might not either

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Fido198674 wrote:
IG will get their codex update in time and those same players will whine about how you "just bought them to play because they are new and OP"

This assumes the next IG codex update actually does anything for them. The last codex didn't really fix anything with the army, the next one might not either

Honestly, that's why I think they should just can the whole idea of the "Astra Militarum" and just do "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".

Remove Catachans, remove Scions, remove Commissars, remove Rough Riders, remove the Hobbits.

Sometimes in order to save the forest, you have to kill the trees.

Cadia uses commissars...

I believe guard are quite solid in certain ares, but need support in others. I won a 1500pts local tournament using a list that was 75% a guard CAD a few weeks back.

Game 1 was against a ravenwing/iron hands deathstar with a smashfether captain. I used wyverns to kill all the supporting bikers and tied it up in combat with conscripts til the game's end.

Game 2 was against a tau list with a flying forge world riptide, a regular riptide, and a huge taunar 'supremacy suit'. I killed the flying one with allied grav bikes, and the supremacy couldn't find anything good to shoot - he had the choice of killing conscripts, command squads or 65pt wyverns. One blob of conscripts got invisibility through Coteaz and was safe from the templates all game. I won on objectives.

Game 3 was against a new Tzeentch daemon incursion formation with fateweaver and a lord of change. This was a bit of a slaughter - wyverns + lasguns massacred his horrors and conscript charges finished the rest. Then it was just a case of firing all lasguns at the sky until fateweaver and the LOC died.

In my opinion, guard excel at anti-infantry firepower and survivability, but in my opinion they have poor ability to take out armour and monstrous creatures.

I believe the two truly effective units in the book are conscripts and wyverns. Wyverns have murderous damage output and decent defence (an AV12 chassis for 65pts isn't bad!). They can unleash hell on near any infantry unit, and snipe out important characters / weapons from squads. Conscripts are great tarpits - 50 models with a priest costs 175pts, and is a big headache for opponents to deal with. They are also decently effective against infantry in CC and are reasonable shooters against invisibility and FMCs (as BS1 is barely worth than BS2). I took two units of 50 to the tourney, one with Coteaz attached in addition to the priest.

They do need allies to cover their weaknesses however. I used an allied ravenwing attack formation with some grav to deal with potential wraithknights and high AV vehicles, and coteaz to provide some shrouding/invisibility, CC muscle and re-rolls to seize.

I think that guard excel as an army that can soak up punishment and still have a ton of infantry to contest/control objectives at the games end. Their defensive abilities are far more important than their killing power!

 Selym wrote:
Cadia uses commissars...

Not according to "Cadian Blood" and the Doctrines Codex.

Codex: Imperial Guard p58 wrote:
Cadian Shock Troops
Cadia has always been a fortress world, charged with guarding the entrance to the Eye of Terror. Its population are all destined for a military life; the birth rate and recruitment rate are synonymous. Cadian Regiments are highly disciplined, make excellent shots, and use elite shock troops to lead their attacks. Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.

Preferred special weapon: Grenade Launcher
Preferred heavy weapon: Autocannon

-Grenadiers
-Sanctioned Psykers
-Special Weapon squads
-Storm Trooper squads [Note: This and Grenadiers were used to represent the Kasrkin from the Eye of Terror book]
-Iron Discipline
-Sharpshooters
-Conscript platoons

"Cadian Blood" had the regiment being pretty heavily offended by being assigned a Commissar, ostensibly for their Sanctioned Psyker despite the fact that Cadian officers are able to go through Commissariat training and be certified to handle Psykers.

I say give each regiment a playstayle like third edition or chapter tactics like the marines do. That would not only help with survivability but also attract more players to play more troop based armies.

 tau tse tung wrote:
I say give each regiment a playstayle like third edition or chapter tactics like the marines do. That would not only help with survivability but also attract more players to play more troop based armies.

I think something akin to chapter tactics would probably be the easiest to implement. As much as I would like I think the mix and match days from the doctrines book will not be returning (plus it was kind of a pain and some were a bit more powerful than the others). Ideally they would have something like Cadian (all rounder with better orders/leadership) Catachan (mostly infantry with maybe stubborn or cheap access to camo) Steel Legion (mechanized infantry/tanks) Elysian (flyers flyers flyers!) and DKoK (artillery to the max)

Putting it succinctly, we're not getting Doctrines or special rules for Regiments from GW proper ever again.

Not unless GW starts producing ranges in plastic.

That's why I am all for them cutting the Ratlings, Commissars, Priests, and Rough Riders out.

Let us get a Cadian army as a Cadian army instead of "Cadians and their neighbor Wilson Wilson Wilson".

 Kanluwen wrote:
Putting it succinctly, we're not getting Doctrines or special rules for Regiments from GW proper ever again.

Not unless GW starts producing ranges in plastic.

That's why I am all for them cutting the Ratlings, Commissars, Priests, and Rough Riders out.

Let us get a Cadian army as a Cadian army instead of "Cadians and their neighbor Wilson Wilson Wilson".

You have a valid point. And last go around it REALLY REALLY seemed like they were going give us some new rough riders prior to the book release since they disappeared off the webstore and all. Granted ive had a good time converting them but their rules are awful,

WE DEMAND DKOK DEATH RIDERS!!!!

 DoomMouse wrote:

*snip*

No offense, but an IG army made up of 100 fearless conscripts and a half dozen Wyverns sounds like one of the most flavorless armies I've ever heard of. The fact that you had to add a bunch of Invisible, grav-wielding bikers re-rolling jink along with Coteaz further reinforces the sad state of the game. Congrats to you for winning a tournament, but I'd rather take a spikey, metal Bloodthirster to the jugular and bleed-out on the filthy, gaming store floor than choose to play that list.

And your list still doesn't mean the IG codex is worth the smart card space it takes up on my tablet.

War Kitten wrote:Sadly, if you read MoO's other posts, this is par for the course with his opponent. He gives the rest of us Marine players a bad name

Aye that is true, out my four usual opponents he is by far the worst. Sadly he is the one I usually end up facing.

TheCustomLime wrote:

He took a Typhon against guard? Was he afraid of not tabling you or something?

He loves his 'ignores cover' stuff... Or at least he has started too ever since I started going camo heavy and camping out in ruins for that sweet 3+ save. It made my veterans and tanks hard to shift without dedicating a bit of firepower their way. For some reason he didnt like that.

Ironwolf45 wrote:

Sounds like a typical power-gamer tool lol. Have a few people like him at my store and I have learned not to play 30k armies. One guy got mad when I turned him down and the reason was simple, good 30k Space Marines with 30k rules vs an Outdated, Bottem Tier Codex using 40k rules. Sorry but you can't play a 40k game if your opponent is using 30k rules and you are using 40k rules. It's not even close.

To be fair 40K was hardly any better - he has three Vindicators and five Librarians and if you thought the Linebreaker was bad then you have clearly never faced an invisible Linebreaker. In all honesty 30K was a slight reprieve as he does not really know how to best employ his units. Sadly he just bought a bunch of big things and selected the best anti Guard units to bring.

Anyway, it is not like my other games go that well. My GK opponent uses that deepstrike formation to negate my range advantage and get in close where I cannot fight whilst my Space Wolf opponent loves his outflankers and flyers, although to be fair those two do tone their lists down when facing weaker codexes, and they do play fluffy lists.

Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.

I agree with pretty much all of this. If any weapon deserves to be 'D' then it is the Deathstrike. The thing is a fecking ballistic missile FFS.

Leman Russ tank should have 4HP. Because it's big fething tank made to whitstand the worst of the worst. And that's why is has the same amount of HP as a Wartrukk...

 the_Armyman wrote:


No offense, but an IG army made up of 100 fearless conscripts and a half dozen Wyverns sounds like one of the most flavorless armies I've ever heard of. The fact that you had to add a bunch of Invisible, grav-wielding bikers re-rolling jink along with Coteaz further reinforces the sad state of the game. Congrats to you for winning a tournament, but I'd rather take a spikey, metal Bloodthirster to the jugular and bleed-out on the filthy, gaming store floor than choose to play that list.

And your list still doesn't mean the IG codex is worth the smart card space it takes up on my tablet.

Cheers for that. I wasn't saying it was a friendly list - it was a competitive one for a tournament. I thought we were debating how the imperial guard codex could be made to equal the likes of tau and eldar?

For the record there were three wyverns only, and only one squad of three grav bikers (to counter wraithknights which guard have no real answer to). I also only rolled invisibility once of the three games too, and it was just to make one conscript unit invisible so the Taunar suit didn't turn them into a big crater in one turn. There were a lot of models, but I was playing a mainly infantry list, so why wouldn't I play to one of the guard codex's main strengths?

I went up against ravenwing re-rolling 2+ jink and daemons with invisibility (and all manner of other psychic powers), so I wasn't exactly doing anything the other players weren't

 master of ordinance wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.

I agree with pretty much all of this. If any weapon deserves to be 'D' then it is the Deathstrike. The thing is a fecking ballistic missile FFS.

Bet you the Deathstrike gets nerfed next codex.

 Selym wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 ThirstySpaceMan wrote:
Make the deathstrike missile s.D rework rough riders. Say 2 wounds option for carapace armor. Make them the shock unit they are ment to be. Dollar store ironstriders. Bring back my captains they added so much flavor.
Or revamp the build a brigade system ala chapter tactics.

I agree with pretty much all of this. If any weapon deserves to be 'D' then it is the Deathstrike. The thing is a fecking ballistic missile FFS.

Bet you the Deathstrike gets nerfed next codex.

They'll take a page from the Orks and have rolls of 1 when seeing if it fires or not cause it to land prematurely on itself with no scatter and at strength D. Otherwise it keeps the same profile.

Poor horde armies can't catch a break this edition without exorbitant formations that force you to buy hundreds of infantry models.