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 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.

Scions have really good orders that make them super versatile, the problem being that the orders are hard to come by since only the command squad gets to give them and they only have one order. giving them to sergeants or giving the Prime 2 orders at least (and maybe unlimited range if the squad has a vox?) would go a loooong way to fixing that army

Simply put, the issue with the Scions as their own Codex is that they never should have been given the "Orders" system. They're balanced around and pointed out for the Platoons we see in C: AM. Don't believe me? If you have a hard copy of the codex, read Warlord trait #4 "Grav-Chute Commandos".

In any regards, my solution for Scions? Remove them from C: AM. Remove Hardened Veterans from Troops and make them a "Hardened Veteran Platoon" for an Elite choice. Purchase a "doctrine"/"specialist loadout" for the Platoon(Grenadiers, Scouts/Light Infantry, Mechanized) and it gives them a unique loadout and USRs. Grenadiers for example would have access to Hellguns, Carapace Armor, and only get Special Weapons. Mechanized would have Carapace Armor, access to Special and Heavy Weapons but have to take a DT. Scouts/Light Infantry would be the standard Guard with Camo-Cloaks, and limited access to Special and Heavy Weapons--nothing beyond Missile Launchers, Sniper Rifles, Demolition Charges, and Grenade Launchers.

"But Kanluwen--what about Scions?! They've still got their own book and you're just screwing over Scions players!" you might say.

Nope! I've got plans for them. A special rule in the Scions book called "The Sharp End of the Spear":

The Sharp End of the Spear: Tempestus Scions operate as a separate part of the Astra Militarum. Nominally, the Militarum Tempestus Scions would obey commands from superior officers...provided they don't conflict with their operational parameters.
Units taken from Militarum Tempestus with Vox-Casters can receive Orders given by Astra Militarum Senior Officers. Anyone below the rank of Senior Officers are ignored by the Scions, as the orders they are giving will not mesh with the operational parameters of the Scions' mission.

Replacing Orders in the Militarum Tempestus book is something I'm not sure how to do yet. I'm thinking it will be something different, like how Cult Mechanicus has their Psalms while Skitarii have Doctrina Imperatives. I'm thinking something along the lines of the army having USRs boosting their survivability until the turn they complete an objective chosen from a list(kill a Warlord, destroy a specific vehicle/MC/whatever) and then losing some of the survivability USRs after completion. Still puzzling that out.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I'm liking most of the suggestions that I've read so far. Especially the bonuses forogryns/bullgryns, but AV 14 vehicle squadrons with reroll pen/glance AND a possible 2+ invul? That's just silly.

Um, a possible 3+ Invulnerable Save. Read the stuff in parentheses--maximum of 2+ bonus.

Oh yeah--and that requires at least two Infantry Squads within 4 inches of each individual tank.

They're a big enough pain with camouflage netting, but I could get on board with rerouting glances/pens if full squadrons are taken.

How in the world are you having Leman Russes "being a pain with camouflage netting"? Seriously man.
First--vehicles require 25% of the model to be fully obscured in order to claim a Cover save. That's strike 1.
Second--Camouflage Netting gives a single point bonus to Cover.

So in the open, that Leman Russ has a 6+ save. Since it requires 25% obscured to be anything more than "in the open", just get a side shot in on it.
Bonus points--side armor is AV13 and rear armor is AV10(11 on some variants)!

Ant kind of invuln for russes just OTT.

Man, you must hate Onager Dunecrawlers then. 90 points for a Walker that has a 6+ Invulnerable Save, and gets +1 to its Invulnerable Save for each Onager in the Squadron and within coherency. And that can buy It Will Not Die for a cheap price, while being buffed by Doctrina Imperatives to boot.

Face facts. Leman Russes suck. If you're having that much of an issue against them with Camo Netting, I don't know what to tell you. If you're playing Marines, just give an IC an Auspex and toss him into a squad. That Cover save in the open is then gone.

Also, there is just no reason, at all, ever thales a Las gun should have a firing mode that puts a storm bolter to shame. I could get behind a Str 4/AP4 rand 30" rapid fire, gets hot as ONCE per game, but if you make overcharge salvo 2/3 and Str 5 to where they can shoot every turn why would the IoM use any other small arm (aside from special weapons)?

Can't help you. Bolters suck, it's a well known fact. This thread is about the Guard though.

I also think it would be cool if they could take some kind of psyker cohort.

They can. It's in Mont'ka. It just isn't as good as any of the other ones that exist.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves

That said, most of the stuff I'd really like to see is here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/651867.page#7901271

I like what you did there with a bunch of the things, but I do have one question, why the hate on Grenade launchers? Maybe im weird but thats always my go to special if I need to maximize point costs and running a lot of infantry, especially with emperors shield. I find that a S6 hit at range can potentially wound MCs or light vehicles (as opposed to not wounding them at all) or still do a small blast over the more limited utility of a flamer, which excels at its job, but you obviously need to be right in the enemies face and at point my squad will be dead. I also run my platoons MSU with krak grenades so I can vehicle and MC hunt in a pinch.

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Along those lines, a simple army wide mechanic replenishment could work, any time a unit dies, roll a D6, in a 6 return it to play the next turn arriving automatically from reserves

That said, most of the stuff I'd really like to see is here
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/651867.page#7901271

I like what you did there with a bunch of the things, but I do have one question, why the hate on Grenade launchers? Maybe im weird but thats always my go to special if I need to maximize point costs and running a lot of infantry, especially with emperors shield. I find that a S6 hit at range can potentially wound MCs or light vehicles (as opposed to not wounding them at all) or still do a small blast over the more limited utility of a flamer, which excels at its job, but you obviously need to be right in the enemies face and at point my squad will be dead. I also run my platoons MSU with krak grenades so I can vehicle and MC hunt in a pinch.

I tried so hard to like Grenade Launchers, I really did, and I ran them on my platoon infantry all through 5th, and still do sometimes. The problem is that the GL really is a piddly weapon that largely just works out to be a slightly beefier lasgun for a single dude, and doesn't enhance the capabilities of the unit all *that* much or let them do much that they couldn't do before aside from a small chance to hurt light vehicles. 5 units of guardsmen with a Plasma Gun are overall a much more flexible and capable group than 6 units with Grenade Launchers for the same cost even with fewer dudes, they can successfully engage a much wider array of targets with a much greater success rate due to getting potentially twice as many shots, ignoring armor altogether, and having higher Strength.

Where is somebody to come in here and say that the codex is fine, and that we just need to learn to use it?

Bonus points if Jancoran comes in and brags about the supremely competitive deathstar that uses Lascannons!

Guard are lacking in so many ways it's not even funny. Most of them have already been pointed out in this thread, so I won't bother bringing them back up. But I will say this, I haven't brought my Guard out of the box in months, I just feel like I don't stand a chance against most armies with them anymore, if I want to actually have a fun game I have to bring my Marines, and that's a shame

 Selym wrote:
40k needs a reboot...

Not Age of Emprah, but a meta reset where the powercreep is removed - allowing normal troop weapons to actually do something.

This I could role with - a complete re-balance done at one time, bringing everything down (or up, in some cases, what ever is appropriate) to the same level. Yeah I know that's a huge undertaking, but hey, the best options aren't always the easiest.

It really does need an overhaul. The slow codex released schedule coupled with years of bad balance problems makes every new book a bad hot fix that often does little to address the problems.

Its like they don't try. Maybe they are just counting on the players to implement the fixes themselves.

 War Kitten wrote:
Guard are lacking in so many ways it's not even funny. Most of them have already been pointed out in this thread, so I won't bother bringing them back up. But I will say this, I haven't brought my Guard out of the box in months, I just feel like I don't stand a chance against most armies with them anymore, if I want to actually have a fun game I have to bring my Marines, and that's a shame

Do you own Deathwatch: Overkill?

Because Guard are about to get a pretty solid boost with the Deathwatch Librarian and Kill-Team as an Allied Detachment(1 HQ and 1 Troop). The Librarian is,from the 'reference guide' we've seen that is included with the new Psyker powers, able to take any of the new Psyker lores.

Geokinesis with an infantry blob and Phase Form(the Ignores Cover and Ignore LOS restrictions power) and Shifting Worldscape(Guard in a bunker out of range? Not for long! ) will make for some hilarity along with FRSRF.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Guard are lacking in so many ways it's not even funny. Most of them have already been pointed out in this thread, so I won't bother bringing them back up. But I will say this, I haven't brought my Guard out of the box in months, I just feel like I don't stand a chance against most armies with them anymore, if I want to actually have a fun game I have to bring my Marines, and that's a shame

Do you own Deathwatch: Overkill?

Because Guard are about to get a pretty solid boost with the Deathwatch Librarian and Kill-Team as an Allied Detachment(1 HQ and 1 Troop). The Librarian is,from the 'reference guide' we've seen that is included with the new Psyker powers, able to take any of the new Psyker lores.

Geokinesis with an infantry blob and Phase Form(the Ignores Cover and Ignore LOS restrictions power) and Shifting Worldscape(Guard in a bunker out of range? Not for long! ) will make for some hilarity along with FRSRF.

Sadly I don't own Overkill, and I won't have the money for it for a long while (hobbying on a college student budget is fun). At some point I'll look into picking it up (if only for the cool SM minis), but until then I find that I have precious little reason to bother playing my Guard

@Kanulwen

Guard players around here love their ADLs. That+ building cover + Camo Netting =3+ cover. And big woop. 120 points of naked veterans. IDK a single guard player who doesn't bubble wrap their tanks with that already. I agree guard need help, but giving a 14/13/11 tank squadron that spits a 8/3 pie plate the length of the table (plus the sponsons), a 2 up invuln for utilizing an common pre-existing tactic and common sense use of terrain is going too far is what I'm saying. Have some respect. Don't turn russes into an IoM riptide, because that's exactly what it will be with a 2 up invuln and at least a 5 up cover (intervening models).

And yea bolters suck, but they're better than Las guns. Always have been. I think more than a few people would take issue if suddenly an average guardsman outgunned a grey knight. On top of that you want to fudge 15 years of lore and rules so you don't have to work as hard to wound bikers. Really man?


And yea Onager crawlers are a bitch to kill. Basically a mini ad-lance, but with a 4+ they can be dealt with. Even GW knows 2+ is going full-tard.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

Guard players around here love their ADLs. That+ building cover + Camo Netting =3+ cover.

Guard players everywhere love their ADLs. Guard are crap without cover, whether we're talking about their tanks or not.

And big woop. 120 points of naked veterans.

1) I specified "Infantry Squads" for a reason. Read the Guard book sometime. Infantry Squad is actually a specific unit.

So no, 120 points of naked veterans wouldn't do anything.

IDK a single guard player who doesn't bubble wrap their tanks with that already. I agree guard need help, but giving a 14/13/11 tank squadron that spits a 8/3 pie plate the length of the table (plus the sponsons),

2) The "14/13/11 tank squadron that spits a 8/3 pie plate the length of the table" isn't 14/13/11. Once again, read the Guard book.
The following variants are 14/13/11:
Leman Russ Demolisher
Leman Russ Punisher
Leman Russ Executioner

The maximum range on those is 36", and that's the Executioner.

a 2 up invuln for utilizing an common pre-existing tactic and common sense use of terrain is going too far is what I'm saying. Have some respect. Don't turn russes into an IoM riptide, because that's exactly what it will be with a 2 up invuln and at least a 5 up cover (intervening models).

Armour of Contempt: Leman Russ Battle Tanks are designed to take the worst the enemy can throw at them and keep moving. Weapons designed to tackle tanks are the only true fear that Leman Russ crews have.

A Leman Russ variant tank has a 5+ Invulnerable Save, with a +1 modifier for every Guard Infantry Squad within 4" of the Leman Russ tanks(maximum of +2). This Invulnerable Save is only usable against ranged weapons that do not have the Armourbane, Melta, or Haywire special rules. Additionally on a successful Invulnerable roll, roll a D6. On a roll of 5 or more the shots are distributed as a shooting attack against the surrounding Guard Infantry Squads.

Hold up 5 fingers. Subtract 2 fingers, the maximum modifier, from it.
You will have 3 fingers left. That is what the best possible Invulnerable Save will be from my proposed rule. 3+. It's not a 2+, it's a 3+. Additionally it does not function against the things that SHOULD be getting used to prey specifically on tanks--Armourbane, Melta, and Haywire.

Notice as well how it says "A Leman Russ variant tank", and not "A Leman Russ Tank Squadron". The save is specific to each tank.

And yea bolters suck, but they're better than Las guns. Always have been. I think more than a few people would take issue if suddenly an average guardsman outgunned a grey knight. On top of that you want to fudge 15 years of lore and rules so you don't have to work as hard to wound bikers. Really man?

I don't think you've read any of my posts, ever. I'm very much for updating everything that is a "legacy" at this point.

To use an example, I think that all Bolt weapons should be touting Shred as standard and the Boltgun should be Assault 3 rather than Rapid Fire. Rapid Fire, at this point, should be renamed to Double Tap--because that's all it is. It's a single extra shot when at half range or less. Oooooooooooooooooh, so rapid fire!

PS: If Guard want to kill bikers? We don't have to work too hard to do it. Wyvern do the job pretty well.

DoD you know that some people call a 2+ sv a +2 or 2 up save? Did you know that some other people make typos like the plus sign before the 2. Furthermore did you know to remove any and all ambiguity all you had to say was "maximum 3+"? Even so, if this rule is going alongside the reroll successful glances/pens I really don't think it should drop below 4+ at best but we can agree to disagree on that one. I mean reroll successes on top of a Cover save and a 4+ invul on an AV 14 (if properly positioned)vehicle... That's an epic pain in the ass to kill a single 160 point tank.

And I believe what you are referring to are platoons. A platoon consists of a platoon command squad and between 1 and 3 infantry squads and possibly a special and or heavy weapons squad. The only SQUADS as you put it are either part of a platoon or are veterans.

Okay, so a regular LRBTS rear AV is 10. Does it matter 10 or 11 if you never expose it to the opponent? And no I didn't go through your post history. Why would anyone just to see what you may or may not have suggested about IoM small arms? I'm not doing a fuckin book report here. And like you said, this thread is about guard.

EDIT: And when you first brought up the invul for the LRBT it was done so in tandem with the "Wall of Steel" suggestion, so the onus was on you to differentiate that the invul applied to individual russes.

Dantes_Baals wrote:


Okay, so a regular LRBTS rear AV is 10. Does it matter 10 or 11 if you never expose it to the opponent?

The big thing is assaults. Rear AV10 is effectively auto-killed by almost any close combat.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:


Okay, so a regular LRBTS rear AV is 10. Does it matter 10 or 11 if you never expose it to the opponent?

The big thing is assaults. Rear AV10 is effectively auto-killed by almost any close combat.

Krak grenades free on marines is the bane of my existence

thats why i started putting them on my Infantry squads

Just to help clarify: "maximum of +2" reads to many people as no better than a 2+ save. The placement of the + (and lack of the ++) is just not 100% clear like it should be.

Maybe reword it to say "maximum of 3++" since that's much more clear in my opinion.

Also, can we kill this idea that any Russ with an ordnance weapon takes sponsons. It doesn't happen. Ever. The punisher, executioner and vanquisher do, but that's an entirely different story.

I'd just like to see Guard have better combined arms tactics. I'd love for tanks to give a bonus to ld and other throwbacks to ww1 and ww2 tactics.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 generalchaos34 wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
To be fair, the SCions have an order that can turn their Hellguns into snipers, with pinning, so that precision mode might not be needed, unless you're doing a ton of changes to Scions and their orders.

Scions have really good orders that make them super versatile, the problem being that the orders are hard to come by since only the command squad gets to give them and they only have one order. giving them to sergeants or giving the Prime 2 orders at least (and maybe unlimited range if the squad has a vox?) would go a loooong way to fixing that army

Simply put, the issue with the Scions as their own Codex is that they never should have been given the "Orders" system. They're balanced around and pointed out for the Platoons we see in C: AM. Don't believe me? If you have a hard copy of the codex, read Warlord trait #4 "Grav-Chute Commandos".

In any regards, my solution for Scions? Remove them from C: AM. Remove Hardened Veterans from Troops and make them a "Hardened Veteran Platoon" for an Elite choice. Purchase a "doctrine"/"specialist loadout" for the Platoon(Grenadiers, Scouts/Light Infantry, Mechanized) and it gives them a unique loadout and USRs. Grenadiers for example would have access to Hellguns, Carapace Armor, and only get Special Weapons. Mechanized would have Carapace Armor, access to Special and Heavy Weapons but have to take a DT. Scouts/Light Infantry would be the standard Guard with Camo-Cloaks, and limited access to Special and Heavy Weapons--nothing beyond Missile Launchers, Sniper Rifles, Demolition Charges, and Grenade Launchers.

"But Kanluwen--what about Scions?! They've still got their own book and you're just screwing over Scions players!" you might say.

Nope! I've got plans for them. A special rule in the Scions book called "The Sharp End of the Spear":

The Sharp End of the Spear: Tempestus Scions operate as a separate part of the Astra Militarum. Nominally, the Militarum Tempestus Scions would obey commands from superior officers...provided they don't conflict with their operational parameters.
Units taken from Militarum Tempestus with Vox-Casters can receive Orders given by Astra Militarum Senior Officers. Anyone below the rank of Senior Officers are ignored by the Scions, as the orders they are giving will not mesh with the operational parameters of the Scions' mission.

Replacing Orders in the Militarum Tempestus book is something I'm not sure how to do yet. I'm thinking it will be something different, like how Cult Mechanicus has their Psalms while Skitarii have Doctrina Imperatives. I'm thinking something along the lines of the army having USRs boosting their survivability until the turn they complete an objective chosen from a list(kill a Warlord, destroy a specific vehicle/MC/whatever) and then losing some of the survivability USRs after completion. Still puzzling that out.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dantes_Baals wrote:
I'm liking most of the suggestions that I've read so far. Especially the bonuses forogryns/bullgryns, but AV 14 vehicle squadrons with reroll pen/glance AND a possible 2+ invul? That's just silly.

Um, a possible 3+ Invulnerable Save. Read the stuff in parentheses--maximum of 2+ bonus.

Oh yeah--and that requires at least two Infantry Squads within 4 inches of each individual tank.

They're a big enough pain with camouflage netting, but I could get on board with rerouting glances/pens if full squadrons are taken.

How in the world are you having Leman Russes "being a pain with camouflage netting"? Seriously man.
First--vehicles require 25% of the model to be fully obscured in order to claim a Cover save. That's strike 1.
Second--Camouflage Netting gives a single point bonus to Cover.

So in the open, that Leman Russ has a 6+ save. Since it requires 25% obscured to be anything more than "in the open", just get a side shot in on it.
Bonus points--side armor is AV13 and rear armor is AV10(11 on some variants)!

Ant kind of invuln for russes just OTT.

Man, you must hate Onager Dunecrawlers then. 90 points for a Walker that has a 6+ Invulnerable Save, and gets +1 to its Invulnerable Save for each Onager in the Squadron and within coherency. And that can buy It Will Not Die for a cheap price, while being buffed by Doctrina Imperatives to boot.

Face facts. Leman Russes suck. If you're having that much of an issue against them with Camo Netting, I don't know what to tell you. If you're playing Marines, just give an IC an Auspex and toss him into a squad. That Cover save in the open is then gone.

Also, there is just no reason, at all, ever thales a Las gun should have a firing mode that puts a storm bolter to shame. I could get behind a Str 4/AP4 rand 30" rapid fire, gets hot as ONCE per game, but if you make overcharge salvo 2/3 and Str 5 to where they can shoot every turn why would the IoM use any other small arm (aside from special weapons)?

Can't help you. Bolters suck, it's a well known fact. This thread is about the Guard though.

I also think it would be cool if they could take some kind of psyker cohort.

They can. It's in Mont'ka. It just isn't as good as any of the other ones that exist.

This would solve a lot of the problems i have with the guard codex, just lower the cost of heavy & special weapons, especially in the support squards and the codex will be greatly improved.

Still doesn't solve the issue of Chimeras being made of paper. Marines don't care if you pop their Rhinos. They have T4 3+, and drop pods!
Opening the armour casing my vets so easily and consistently leaves them practically immobile and incredibly vulnerable.

I guess if Chimeras cost nothing (akin to that ridiculous formation), then I wouldn't care. I'd spam Chimeras like nobody's business. Costing 65 points is way too much for how long they survive (i.e. one turn).

 Griddlelol wrote:
Still doesn't solve the issue of Chimeras being made of paper. Marines don't care if you pop their Rhinos. They have T4 3+, and drop pods!
Opening the armour casing my vets so easily and consistently leaves them practically immobile and incredibly vulnerable.

I guess if Chimeras cost nothing (akin to that ridiculous formation), then I wouldn't care. I'd spam Chimeras like nobody's business. Costing 65 points is way too much for how long they survive (i.e. one turn).

agreed, when they had 5 firing points it felt like more of a deal with real drive by potential, especially with command squads, nowadays I see sometimes half of my men killed from the vehicle explosion itself and thats before the enemy gets to shoot them

Well. The Chimaera/Leman Russ-problems are related to that craptastic vehicle-rules in the rulebook. Thats not the issue of the guard alone. All tanks except skimmers suck.

 Griddlelol wrote:
Still doesn't solve the issue of Chimeras being made of paper. Marines don't care if you pop their Rhinos. They have T4 3+, and drop pods!
Opening the armour casing my vets so easily and consistently leaves them practically immobile and incredibly vulnerable.

I guess if Chimeras cost nothing (akin to that ridiculous formation), then I wouldn't care. I'd spam Chimeras like nobody's business. Costing 65 points is way too much for how long they survive (i.e. one turn).

Have to agree. Chimeras cost too much and a point drop would be a lot of help for sure. If they do release a formation, would like to see: Minimum requirements are 1x CCS, 2x Veteran Squads in Chimeras. If 5x Chimeras or more are taken, then Chimeras are free in points. Other than that, still makes zero sense that Chimeras in the Standard IG Codex cannot take Autocannon Turrets.

I'm really not a fan of just free stuff. Chimeras need a points drop, but the core vehicle rules really are the biggest issue. Get them back to 55pts with a 5E style vehicle kill system and theyll be golden.

How would you guys go about making guard more capable if one wanted to use a regiment based on Long Range Penetration.

I want my guard units to be semi autonomous with the ability to ambush and take out other enemy troops. They cannot be hoard based. Fire support is provided on location via attached sentinels, heavy weapons squads and other light weapon platforms. Long range support is provided by artillery and aircraft that remain on standby. How can I achieve this without becoming a hoard army, or using large and cumbersome vehicles (I will absolutely refuse to do this)?


Here is an Image of my guys and how I ideally would like them to work.

I've been playing IG since 2000. I've enjoyed them quite a bit, but they suffer as one of "those" armies GW never quite gets right.

My group has a house rule that standard games use one faction, one FOC, no allies, no lords of war, no formations. This has helped the Guard quite a bit, as these are the areas they lag the most. It's still not enough to make them good, just not crappy.

For everyone else that plays the game with allies, formations, etc. things need to change.

While I'm fine with IG being disposable meatbag bullet catchers, I don't want to pay a premium for that ability. EVERYTHING needs to come down in cost. Some of that is a mild point reduction, some of that is a MASSIVE drop in points. Heavy Weapons being one of the massive drops needed.

Let's just face it, they aren't recutting the Ogryn box any time soon. What we have in the box is it for options. However, we shouldn't be totally limited in our options. I think that Ogryns should have the option of the heavier Bullgryn armor. On the same note Boneheads should have the run of the available wargear in the kit. Want a Bonehead with a Ripper Gun and a slabsheild? Fine, do it. Whatever the options, they ALL need to have a drop in points. Ripper guns need to have a slight boost.

Imperial Guard suffer from the problem that they use brute force firepower to try and overcome enemy defenses but lack the sheer weight of fire (a la Scatterbikes) or the buffs/unit synergy (like Tau) to do so. Guard needs to take things in huge numbers to accomplish anything but is heavily gimped since they pay out the ass for mediocrity.

As an example, why are Lascannon upgrades for HWTs 20 points? The same cost SM Devastator squads pay for them and they get a better BS along with inherent buffs from CTs.

Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.

Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.

I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.

 Hawky wrote:
Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.

Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.

I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.

I can somewhat agree with you on that. The question is, where to buff, and where to points-slash? When it comes to basic human troops, I think the only real option is a points-cut. They are intended to be an endless wall of puny humans dying in droves. Having a hundred guardsmen on the field should only put a small dent in your points allowance. Ogryn, well I'd prefer a points drop, but I could live with a decent buff. If they made Leman Russ tanks able to fire EVERYTHING on the move again I'd be willing to keep them at their current points level. Sentinels and RoughRiders need something good. Right now they just stink. Maybe make sentinels available in units of 5 and let them take orders?

I really did like the idea of simplifying orders. Commander affects whole army, Sargent his squad, Lt. effects the platoon. So simple, so easy to understand.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.

Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.

I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.

I can somewhat agree with you on that. The question is, where to buff, and where to points-slash? When it comes to basic human troops, I think the only real option is a points-cut. They are intended to be an endless wall of puny humans dying in droves. Having a hundred guardsmen on the field should only put a small dent in your points allowance. Ogryn, well I'd prefer a points drop, but I could live with a decent buff. If they made Leman Russ tanks able to fire EVERYTHING on the move again I'd be willing to keep them at their current points level. Sentinels and RoughRiders need something good. Right now they just stink. Maybe make sentinels available in units of 5 and let them take orders?

I really did like the idea of simplifying orders. Commander affects whole army, Sargent his squad, Lt. effects the platoon. So simple, so easy to understand.

Light infantry, guerrilla, and/or commando ambush fighters are anything but the monolithic, and quite frankly boring (from my point of view, not trashing you) incarnation of the guard that you are referring to. Any catch all fix for guardsmen is going to fall short. There need to be specific doctrines that dramatically change how the guardsman himself works. It will only restrict playstyles if you want to implement these changes on the base unit profile.

It's as simple as picking a doctrine that gives an advantage and a disadvantage dependent on the playstyle you want. The guardsman unit profile should be a template that would then allow you to customize him to fit your play style.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Hawky wrote:
Chimera transport (not Chimera-based vehicles) should be AV 12/11/10.

Free stuff from formations is the cancer of 40K. It needs to stop right now.

I see that alot of people wants price reductions. I agree, but keep in mind that the less it would cost, the more models you would bring and the table can be pretty crowded, not talking that amount of money you would need to get so many models.
So yes, some units need point reductions, but I would rather see them buffed, because, well, right now, our deployment zone could be crowded as well.

I can somewhat agree with you on that. The question is, where to buff, and where to points-slash? When it comes to basic human troops, I think the only real option is a points-cut. They are intended to be an endless wall of puny humans dying in droves. Having a hundred guardsmen on the field should only put a small dent in your points allowance. Ogryn, well I'd prefer a points drop, but I could live with a decent buff. If they made Leman Russ tanks able to fire EVERYTHING on the move again I'd be willing to keep them at their current points level. Sentinels and RoughRiders need something good. Right now they just stink. Maybe make sentinels available in units of 5 and let them take orders?

I really did like the idea of simplifying orders. Commander affects whole army, Sargent his squad, Lt. effects the platoon. So simple, so easy to understand.

Light infantry, guerrilla, and/or commando ambush fighters are anything but the monolithic, and quite frankly boring (from my point of view, not trashing you) incarnation of the guard that you are referring to. Any catch all fix for guardsmen is going to fall short. There need to be specific doctrines that dramatically change how the guardsman himself works. It will only restrict playstyles if you want to implement these changes on the base unit profile.

It's as simple as picking a doctrine that gives an advantage and a disadvantage dependent on the playstyle you want. The guardsman unit profile should be a template that would then allow you to customize him to fit your play style.

I remember the doctrine days, those were super fun! It would probably shoot sales out the roof considering you can make like 50 different armies in one codex if they had something even with 5 choices like Light Infantry (vehicle restrictions), mechanized (flyer/troop restricted), Aerial (ground vehicle restrictions), Elites/Scions (vehicle/troop restrictions), and Artillery company (vehicle restrictions)

Yes, doctrines or specialisations would certainly pepper up the gameplay. I personally would not agree with restrictions, but cetrain buffs to specific units, depenting on doctrine, would be good enough.
Like pinning after disembarking for mechanised doctrine and such...