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 Kanluwen wrote:

Honestly, that's why I think they should just can the whole idea of the "Astra Militarum" and just do "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".

Remove Catachans, remove Scions, remove Commissars, remove Rough Riders, remove the Hobbits.

Sometimes in order to save the forest, you have to kill the trees.

This would be awful. A codex based on an army which is not able to take back their planet but on the other hand is THE military power of the imperium besides the spess mereens. Plus the models are awful. I want plastic vostroyans and a Codex: Vostroyan Firstborn!

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Honestly, that's why I think they should just can the whole idea of the "Astra Militarum" and just do "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".

Remove Catachans, remove Scions, remove Commissars, remove Rough Riders, remove the Hobbits.

Sometimes in order to save the forest, you have to kill the trees.

This would be awful. A codex based on an army which is not able to take back their planet but on the other hand is THE military power of the imperium besides the spess mereens.

As of right now in terms of the timeline, The 13th Black Crusade hasn't "happened" yet. They rolled the clock back.

In any regards if you really want to say something about Cadia, remember that they've been keeping the Eye of Terror controlled for how long?

One defeat is just a chance to regroup and play offense for a change!

Plus the models are awful.

Yeah because huge fur hats and mustaches are great. Get out!

I want plastic vostroyans and a Codex: Vostroyan Firstborn!

The difference is that my suggestion, sadly, is more likely. If they wanted to add more Regiments in plastic? They could have done it by now. They could have done it several times over by now.

 DoomMouse wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:


No offense, but an IG army made up of 100 fearless conscripts and a half dozen Wyverns sounds like one of the most flavorless armies I've ever heard of. The fact that you had to add a bunch of Invisible, grav-wielding bikers re-rolling jink along with Coteaz further reinforces the sad state of the game. Congrats to you for winning a tournament, but I'd rather take a spikey, metal Bloodthirster to the jugular and bleed-out on the filthy, gaming store floor than choose to play that list.

And your list still doesn't mean the IG codex is worth the smart card space it takes up on my tablet.

Cheers for that. I wasn't saying it was a friendly list - it was a competitive one for a tournament. I thought we were debating how the imperial guard codex could be made to equal the likes of tau and eldar?

For the record there were three wyverns only, and only one squad of three grav bikers (to counter wraithknights which guard have no real answer to). I also only rolled invisibility once of the three games too, and it was just to make one conscript unit invisible so the Taunar suit didn't turn them into a big crater in one turn. There were a lot of models, but I was playing a mainly infantry list, so why wouldn't I play to one of the guard codex's main strengths?

I went up against ravenwing re-rolling 2+ jink and daemons with invisibility (and all manner of other psychic powers), so I wasn't exactly doing anything the other players weren't

My post may have been strongly worded, but I didn't intend to berate you for your choices, just to point out that our choices are limited to stuff I (and most people) wouldn't want to have to play on a regular basis to have a chance in a normal pickup game. It's a tournament, so there's nothing wrong with taking what gives you the best chance to win.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Honestly, that's why I think they should just can the whole idea of the "Astra Militarum" and just do "Codex: Cadian Shock Troops".

Remove Catachans, remove Scions, remove Commissars, remove Rough Riders, remove the Hobbits.

Sometimes in order to save the forest, you have to kill the trees.

This would be awful. A codex based on an army which is not able to take back their planet but on the other hand is THE military power of the imperium besides the spess mereens.

As of right now in terms of the timeline, The 13th Black Crusade hasn't "happened" yet. They rolled the clock back.

In any regards if you really want to say something about Cadia, remember that they've been keeping the Eye of Terror controlled for how long?

One defeat is just a chance to regroup and play offense for a change!

Plus the models are awful.

Yeah because huge fur hats and mustaches are great. Get out!

I want plastic vostroyans and a Codex: Vostroyan Firstborn!

The difference is that my suggestion, sadly, is more likely. If they wanted to add more Regiments in plastic? They could have done it by now. They could have done it several times over by now.

I know that a Codex: Vostroyan will never ever happen but i love the models AND huge fur hats rule!

PS: people without beards are children!

PPS: since 10.000 years every first born son of vostroya fights and dies for the Emperor!

Yeah, and remember why those Firstborns have to fight and die...traitors.

I'd be fine if they went full Codex Cadia if they at least updated the core kits to be smaller scale and have all the weapons options built in (including wargear/bling for veterans). I'm not crazy about Cadians but it looks like they're going to be as good as we're going to get. Catachans also deserve a sorely needed update.

As long as they keep the metal ranges in stock for the other regiments (that are still there at least), they give a potential option for others interested in them even if they're not in plastic. Plus there's great 3rd party guard models to cover the missed greatcoat opportunity.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, and remember why those Firstborns have to fight and die...traitors.

Yes they built tons of weapons to bury horus and his pals under tons of dead traitor marines

I'm not sure if they'll bring vehicles back to their original strength and glory due to how prevalent they were in previous additions. My thoughts are they're too afraid to give them the power they once had.

That being said, it makes no sense to me that Leman Russ don't have 4 Hull Points and all the vehicles absolutely should have bonuses for taking a full squadron.

I still say Lasguns need an update. I get the iconic nature and the standard it sets, but when armies are doing mass fire better than the original mass fire gun, there's a problem.

Non skimmer vehicles were only ever really strong and prevalent in one edition ever, 5th. Thats probably not a concern of the rules team given how consistently they make Skimmers and MC's amazing.

 Grimskul wrote:
I'd be fine if they went full Codex Cadia if they at least updated the core kits to be smaller scale and have all the weapons options built in (including wargear/bling for veterans). I'm not crazy about Cadians but it looks like they're going to be as good as we're going to get.

Veterans deserve their own box, not just stuff thrown into the standard Cadian Shock Troop box.

In all honesty though? The kit is pretty good but it could use a clean-up, like we saw with the Tau Fire Warriors. I don't want smaller Cadians in any case, that would mean rebuying my whole army...and that dog ain't hunting.

If we see Cadians get anything in terms of their main boxed set altering, it's going to be recuts of the box to include the other special weapons and possibly heavy weapons as well.

Catachans also deserve a sorely needed update.

Truthfully, they kinda got one in the form of the Catachan Command Squad and the Heavy Weapons. Supposedly though those were crummy sellers hence their removal to Direct Only.

I can't see Catachans sticking around.

As long as they keep the metal ranges in stock for the other regiments (that are still there at least), they give a potential option for others interested in them even if they're not in plastic. Plus there's great 3rd party guard models to cover the missed greatcoat opportunity.

Yeah...if they go Codex: Cadia, that's not happening.

FW's ranges would be intact most likely and get split off into their 'own' books/lists. DKoK and D99 basically use their own books without input from C: AM anyways.

These doctrines are intended to be used within a narrative campaign. They may not be completely balanced, but they are meant to help guard players better represent their regiment’s style of fighting on the table. These are intended to be used primarily on the guardsmen themselves.
Each doctrine is applied to the army. Only doctrines that make sense may be used together (you make the call). 
Mechanized: units that have the capability of taking a transport, must take one. The same turn that this unit disembarks from its transport, it gains the pinning special rule.

Artillery Company: infantry may not take transports, all barrage weapons gain the pinning special rule
.
Light Infantry regiment: In addition to the warlord trait you roll, your warlord automatically has the Master of ambush warlord trait. Your infantry obtain the moves through cover and relentless special rules. Your Lasguns always have 1 additional shot. Your infantry may not take transports, or heavy weapons. Nor can you take any large vehicles such as the leman russ. Vehicles such as buggies and sentinels are permitted (they need to be smaller and more nimble than traditional vehicles). You may not run this as a horde army.

Feral world: Your infantry units obtain the moves through cover, and relentless special rules. They gain +1 strength. Normal guardsmen may only be equipped with a laspistol and ccw. Characters may still take additional items and weapons as they would otherwise normally be able to do.

Penal Troops. : Conscript squads and guardsmen squads swap places on the platoon chart. Now you need two conscript squads to take one guardsmen squad.

Long range vox. : Vox casters now allow orders to be received anywhere on the battlefield instead of allowing orders to be rerolled.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I'd be fine if they went full Codex Cadia if they at least updated the core kits to be smaller scale and have all the weapons options built in (including wargear/bling for veterans). I'm not crazy about Cadians but it looks like they're going to be as good as we're going to get.

Veterans deserve their own box, not just stuff thrown into the standard Cadian Shock Troop box.

In all honesty though? The kit is pretty good but it could use a clean-up, like we saw with the Tau Fire Warriors. I don't want smaller Cadians in any case, that would mean rebuying my whole army...and that dog ain't hunting.

If we see Cadians get anything in terms of their main boxed set altering, it's going to be recuts of the box to include the other special weapons and possibly heavy weapons as well.

Catachans also deserve a sorely needed update.

Truthfully, they kinda got one in the form of the Catachan Command Squad and the Heavy Weapons. Supposedly though those were crummy sellers hence their removal to Direct Only.

I can't see Catachans sticking around.

As long as they keep the metal ranges in stock for the other regiments (that are still there at least), they give a potential option for others interested in them even if they're not in plastic. Plus there's great 3rd party guard models to cover the missed greatcoat opportunity.

Yeah...if they go Codex: Cadia, that's not happening.

FW's ranges would be intact most likely and get split off into their 'own' books/lists. DKoK and D99 basically use their own books without input from C: AM anyways.

Well if they do a reboxing with the Cadian infantry set like they did with Tau in terms of Fire Warriors, I'd be shocked if they didn't make it a dual kit in some way given that the Fire Warrior box set can make breachers alongside fire warriors. In the same sense, given that Veterans are just battle-hardened and slightly differently equipped versions of infantry squads and not outright different units like Scions I'm not sure if they warrant an entirely separate box set. That's the general trend for a lot of plastic 40K infantry kits nowadays, short of marines since they're pretty interchangeable, I mean look at the Skitarii boxes.

Catachans make sense having low sales since they never bothered to replace the old core Catachan troop box. It's kind of hard to do a reboot of Catachans properly when the box that you'll use the most (the crappy looking one) almost needs several boxes of the command squad set just to make them look decent, or otherwise forces you to buy an excessive amount of catachan command squad boxes.

 Grimskul wrote:

Well if they do a reboxing with the Cadian infantry set like they did with Tau in terms of Fire Warriors, I'd be shocked if they didn't make it a dual kit in some way given that the Fire Warrior box set can make breachers alongside fire warriors. In the same sense, given that Veterans are just battle-hardened and slightly differently equipped versions of infantry squads and not outright different units like Scions I'm not sure if they warrant an entirely separate box set. That's the general trend for a lot of plastic 40K infantry kits nowadays, short of marines since they're pretty interchangeable, I mean look at the Skitarii boxes.

To be fair, what you're missing out on is that the Fire Warriors kit? It had no real options before. You could build a guy with a scanner arm and a raised rifle or carbine, you could build a guy with grenades in hand throwing with a rifle/carbine, or you could build everyone with either rifles or carbines.
Heck, the Gun Drones in the box? They were their own frames that could only build Gun Drones.

Skitarii have the option for an Omnispex, a Vox, and three special weapons for the squad. Additionally, there's options for the Skitarii Alphas(Maul, Power Sword, Taser Goad, Arc Pistol or Phosphor Pistol--or there's a spare rifle on the frame and a pointing arm as well).

IF they went my route with the Cadians becoming their own Codex, and IF they went my route of simply redoing the Shock Troops box rather than creating a whole new scale?
I can almost guarantee you that it would be a single box like the Marines. Marines have all of their Special Weapon options(Grav, Melta, Flamer, Plasma--and as a bonus, there's a Combi weapon for the squad Sergeant) in there and one of their Heavy Weapon options(Missile Launchers).
That's all they could fit into a 10 man Marine box, on two sprues.

Now think about Guard Squads. Not Veteran Squads with their options--just Guard Squads.
You're talking about Sniper Rifles, Plasma Guns, Meltaguns, Grenade Launchers, and Flamers as Special Weapon options. Then you're talking about Heavy Bolters, Missile Launchers, Mortars, Autocannons, and Lascannons for Heavy Weapon options.

There just wouldn't be room for a Veteran set in there, unless Veterans lost all their options.

 IronMaster wrote:
I'm not sure if they'll bring vehicles back to their original strength and glory due to how prevalent they were in previous additions. My thoughts are they're too afraid to give them the power they once had.

That being said, it makes no sense to me that Leman Russ don't have 4 Hull Points and all the vehicles absolutely should have bonuses for taking a full squadron.

I still say Lasguns need an update. I get the iconic nature and the standard it sets, but when armies are doing mass fire better than the original mass fire gun, there's a problem.

4HP and bonuses to squadroning would be a massive step in the right direction as would reduced points costs.

Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.

Zustiur wrote:
Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.

Because it would mean Eldar, Tau and Marine players have to dedicate more than a passing thought to taking them out.

Zustiur wrote:
Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.

HWS should deffinitely be cheaper ... and at least T4 or T5

 vostroyan second born wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.

HWS should deffinitely be cheaper ... and at least T4 or T5

I always believed if HWT's were to remain their same stats, they should at least be 30 points, as they're practically the same thing as a SWS. 6 wounds for 30 points, upgrade how you will. If you did that, I'd definitely consider HWT's more, especially for 60 points, I'd be getting three autocannon teams, 6 wounds. However I do believe they need some buff, like either some sandbag cover rule or increase Toughness to 4 (Such as some gun emplacements, which have high toughness and such).

 Sampson97 wrote:

 vostroyan second born wrote:

Zustiur wrote:
Give heavy weapon teams 'Eternal Warrior'. No more S6 silliness.
I can't think of any good reason why they don't have that rule already.
Heavy weapon squads should probably be cheaper to start with too.

HWS should deffinitely be cheaper ... and at least T4 or T5

I always believed if HWT's were to remain their same stats, they should at least be 30 points, as they're practically the same thing as a SWS. 6 wounds for 30 points, upgrade how you will. If you did that, I'd definitely consider HWT's more, especially for 60 points, I'd be getting three autocannon teams, 6 wounds. However I do believe they need some buff, like either some sandbag cover rule or increase Toughness to 4 (Such as some gun emplacements, which have high toughness and such).

The problem you then have is the weapons cost.
Back in the 5th edition codex all the HWT's came with a mortar as standard and could then upgrade it. However in the new codex they no longer come with any weapons and instead have to pay points a weapon, be it a mortar of a lascannon. And the prices went up too - no way on mother earth is a Lascannon worth 25 points on a Guardsman. 15 maybe, but 25? 75 points plus the cost of the squad (currently 45) is an obscene price to have to pay for three BS3 T3 Lascannons.

Do you think it would be asking too much to give HWS's the artillery special rule? With that you wouldn't necessarily need a points decrease and they'd be T7 to shooting.

I'd rather they were cheaper. They're guard, they're expendable. I don't want a few expensive, hard to kill infantry units backed up by tanks, I want more infantry units than you can shoot at, but when you look at them, they die.

Let me spam HWSs and SWSs and Infantry squads so I can overwhelm target priority. That, backed up by tanks.

T7 vs shooting and a slight points drop, THEN we might be talking.
As it stands I am paying 55 points for three T3 MORTARS for feths sake.

For the non IG players: What's a mortar?

A useless weapon no one takes.

pm713 wrote:
For the non IG players: What's a mortar?

S4 AP6 Heavy 1 Barrage Blast 48" range

If Mortars had variable shells(smoke, concussive, air burst, etc) I'd be cool with them.
As it stands? They're a joke choice.

pm713 wrote:
For the non IG players: What's a mortar?

A glorified rubbish bin at the moment. See Kanluwen's post for reasons why.

I should actually mention that they used to be okay. Maybe not excellent but okay, and then the power creep happened. I do miss the days when I could bring mortar batteries and not be laughed at.

Irl a mortar is a portable artillery unit. Pretty much just a metal tube. Shove a mortar shell into it, the shell fires up into the air, and hooefully lands on the target.

British infantry love em.

 Selym wrote:
Irl a mortar is a portable artillery unit. Pretty much just a metal tube. Shove a mortar shell into it, the shell fires up into the air, and hooefully lands on the target.

British infantry love em.

Aye, now if we had mortars like this, with a higher rate of fire (say, three shots per turn per tube) then they might actually be worth something.

MORTARS

Like wyverns but no twin linked, no shred, no ignores cover and no bonus heavy bolter.

Mounted on a durable T3 frame for your convenience.

 master of ordinance wrote:
T7 vs shooting and a slight points drop, THEN we might be talking.
As it stands I am paying 55 points for three T3 MORTARS for feths sake.

I do hope you're joking... I think the HWTS could use a points drop and an automatic 5+ cover due to gunshields, but what in the name of perfect health makes you think that humans in cardboard armor should be harder to wound than a carnifex alongside a 5 point decrease?