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Dantes_Baals wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
T7 vs shooting and a slight points drop, THEN we might be talking.
As it stands I am paying 55 points for three T3 MORTARS for feths sake.

I do hope you're joking... I think the HWTS could use a points drop and an automatic 5+ cover due to gunshields,

Oh sure that makes perfect sense. Let's give a unit 5+ cover.

Oh what's that? 5+ Cover is as bad as a 5+ armor save? Well damn. Back to the drawing board!

but what in the name of perfect health makes you think that humans in cardboard armor should be harder to wound than a carnifex alongside a 5 point decrease?

Check the price of a Mek Gun or an Eldar weapons platform or a TFC or any Artillery piece currently in the game.

Artillery units are T7 solely against shooting attacks.

5+ cover is better than 5+ armour I think. There's less ignores cover than ap5

pm713 wrote:
5+ cover is better than 5+ armour I think. There's less ignores cover than ap5

When you're T3, it doesn't matter if it's a 5+ cover or a 5+ armor save.

You're boned with a large number of weapons despite being a large mounted weapon(that Guard players have to pay friggin' Marine points for) and two crewmen sheltering behind it.

Artillery or bust.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
T7 vs shooting and a slight points drop, THEN we might be talking.
As it stands I am paying 55 points for three T3 MORTARS for feths sake.

I do hope you're joking... I think the HWTS could use a points drop and an automatic 5+ cover due to gunshields, but what in the name of perfect health makes you think that humans in cardboard armor should be harder to wound than a carnifex alongside a 5 point decrease?

T7 vs shooting only and, lets face it, HWT are hardly the toughest unit out there. Just assault them or shoot them with amassed small arms. Oh, and they gain a 3+ save vs shooting too.

Earthshaker crewmen are tougher than Carnies agaisnt shooting, so are grots, so why not HWT's

Because an earthshaker cannon is a monstrous piece of heavy forged steel artillery they can duck/take cover under. A LC that goes up to their knees and can be carried around by a two man team doesn't even begin to provide that kind of cover. There is no reason at all a krak missile should have an easier time wounding a carnifex than a pair of humans hiding behind a tin gunshield. We aren't even talking fluff anymore. This is straight up common sense.

Edit: AND a 3+ vs shooting? Seriously man ; in addition to your wishlist for LRBTS to ignore basically ALL vehicle weaknesses and then some, why don't you go ahead and throw an "I win" Warlord trait in there with the other changes.

Perma cover save, points drop The dudes are hiding behind a HMG in spehss, and a couple of sandbags. They're not particularly durable.

Dantes_Baals wrote:Because an earthshaker cannon is a monstrous piece of heavy forged steel artillery they can duck/take cover under. A LC that goes up to their knees and can be carried around by a two man team doesn't even begin to provide that kind of cover. There is no reason at all a krak missile should have an easier time wounding a carnifex than a pair of humans hiding behind a tin gunshield. We aren't even talking fluff anymore. This is straight up common sense.

And neither does a Riptide or Stormsurge being an MC and not a vehicle, or for that matter three Vindicators being able to suddenly fire a super shell or for that matter an ornamental spiky iron ring providing a 4++ save or just about half of the things in 40K, but your point is?

Edit: AND a 3+ vs shooting? Seriously man ; in addition to your wishlist for LRBTS to ignore basically ALL vehicle weaknesses and then some, why don't you go ahead and throw an "I win" Warlord trait in there with the other changes.

My wishlist of LRBT's to avoid all vehicle weaknesses? What, you mean the one that makes them useable again as opposed to the wast of points we have now? All I want them to do is to be able to move and fire their main gun and secondary weapons effectively, have some form of a save against damaging (both things that an MC and GMC can do) and for assaulters to have to attack its facing armour because right now LRBT's vanish as soon as the enemy reaches assault range. And for the stupid damage mechanic that has overflowing damage spread across the entire troop removed.
Do you even play Guard? Do you even know what it is like to play them? Have you ever had the wonderful privilege of having to set up your army only to have packed most of it back up by turn two? No? Well then, you should try playing an Imperial Guard army and good luck lasting past turn three.
Oh and that 3+? It is only vs shooting and, along with the T7, might actually see HWT's lasting beyond the first shooting phase.

Selym wrote:Perma cover save, points drop The dudes are hiding behind a HMG in spehss, and a couple of sandbags. They're not particularly durable.

Perma cover save would be nice but ultimately redundant with all the 'ignores cover' that flies around these days. T7 and a 3+ vs shooting thankyou very much.

I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.

That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.

 Vaktathi wrote:
I think making HWT's full bore T7 artillery is a wee bit much.

That said, the concept of something similar has been discussed before. If we made them a unique gunteam type unit that more accurately reflected how they actually operate, we could make them more functional. It could be something like "if this unit has not moved this turn, it gains +2 Toughness and a 4+ cover save". This would help represent gun shields and entrenchments set up with the heavy weapons, while when moving they're just normal dudes. T5 W2 4+cover gun teams would have a whole lot more utility without being a somewhat overblown T7.

I would happily settle for this. Just give us a 4+ save as well.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Dantes_Baals wrote:Because an earthshaker cannon is a monstrous piece of heavy forged steel artillery they can duck/take cover under. A LC that goes up to their knees and can be carried around by a two man team doesn't even begin to provide that kind of cover. There is no reason at all a krak missile should have an easier time wounding a carnifex than a pair of humans hiding behind a tin gunshield. We aren't even talking fluff anymore. This is straight up common sense.

And neither does a Riptide or Stormsurge being an MC and not a vehicle, or for that matter three Vindicators being able to suddenly fire a super shell or for that matter an ornamental spiky iron ring providing a 4++ save or just about half of the things in 40K, but your point is?

Edit: AND a 3+ vs shooting? Seriously man ; in addition to your wishlist for LRBTS to ignore basically ALL vehicle weaknesses and then some, why don't you go ahead and throw an "I win" Warlord trait in there with the other changes.

My wishlist of LRBT's to avoid all vehicle weaknesses? What, you mean the one that makes them useable again as opposed to the wast of points we have now? All I want them to do is to be able to move and fire their main gun and secondary weapons effectively, have some form of a save against damaging (both things that an MC and GMC can do) and for assaulters to have to attack its facing armour because right now LRBT's vanish as soon as the enemy reaches assault range. And for the stupid damage mechanic that has overflowing damage spread across the entire troop removed.
Do you even play Guard? Do you even know what it is like to play them? Have you ever had the wonderful privilege of having to set up your army only to have packed most of it back up by turn two? No? Well then, you should try playing an Imperial Guard army and good luck lasting past turn three.
Oh and that 3+? It is only vs shooting and, along with the T7, might actually see HWT's lasting beyond the first shooting phase.

Selym wrote:Perma cover save, points drop The dudes are hiding behind a HMG in spehss, and a couple of sandbags. They're not particularly durable.

Perma cover save would be nice but ultimately redundant with all the 'ignores cover' that flies around these days. T7 and a 3+ vs shooting thankyou very much.

I have no issue with bringing back lumbering behemoth. I thought it actually made a lot of sense. But Russes should be harder to assault, get an arbitrary save and ignore the glance/pen allocation rule on squadrons because... Why? I'm drawing a blank. Look man, non-skimmer vehicles just suck this edition. Everybody else has to deal with it, I don't see why IG shouldnt. Especially if there is no fluff or good reason for it. And T7 3+ vs shooting in an almost entirely shooting based edition is a pretty big deal. Even a boost to T5 would make zero sense. I get HWTS could use a hand, but outside of a permanent 4+ cover, the ability to overwatch and 20 points max for a HWT of any type don't see what else can be done. Maybe give them access to Camo netting? The whole "the most OP dexes in the game have stupid, nonsense rules so mine should too", doesn't really play well.

A copy/paste of what I wrote on another thread, but it bears repeating for this one:

"For anyone who thinks that IG is underpowered, I wish to recall how, at the very least, I've experienced games against them to go:

IG goes turn one:

20 (exaggerated, but not by much) barrage large blasts. Say goodbye to a third of your army.

Me:

Welp, good game. I concede."

Traditio wrote:
A copy/paste of what I wrote on another thread, but it bears repeating for this one:

"For anyone who thinks that IG is underpowered, I wish to recall how, at the very least, I've experienced games against them to go:

IG goes turn one:

20 (exaggerated, but not by much) barrage large blasts. Say goodbye to a third of your army.

Me:

Welp, good game. I concede."

IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.

Just saying.

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.

Just saying.

I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".

IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.

SemperMortis wrote:

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.

Just saying.

I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".

IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.

Not sure what army you play but the IG are not that strong at all right now. They can do well against the other Non-Competitive armies atm, but they get wiped out against all the other top tier lists. It has seriously gotten to the point with me where I do not want to play my IG anymore unless it is a fun game. Even then it is annoying sometimes. I don't complain and I love my IG but reality shows the stark difference of how weak the IG are right now compared to other armies in the game.

 Ironwolf45 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.

Just saying.

I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".

IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.

Not sure what army you play but the IG are not that strong at all right now. They can do well against the other Non-Competitive armies atm, but they get wiped out against all the other top tier lists. It has seriously gotten to the point with me where I do not want to play my IG anymore unless it is a fun game. Even then it is annoying sometimes. I don't complain and I love my IG but reality shows the stark difference of how weak the IG are right now compared to other armies in the game.

That is literally what I just said, they are competitive against other non-competitive armies like Orks, Tyranids, Chaos, but they can't stand up to the cheese armies (SM, Tau, Eldar, Necron)

SemperMortis wrote:

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.

Just saying.

I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".

IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.

+1000

Not to mention that IG don't have a hard counter for every possible strategy you've got to throw at them for dirt cheap.

Dantes_Baals wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.

Just saying.

I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".

IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.

+1000

Not to mention that IG don't have a hard counter for every possible strategy you've got to throw at them for dirt cheap.

I don't know what you are talking about, Skyfire, interceptor, combined overwatch, ignores cover markerlights, +BS Markerlights, GMC's with more dakka then squadrons of battle tanks and broadsides armed with ignores los weapons is Fluffy, they aren't cheesy or ridiculous they are simply an advanced galactic race that is more powerful dakka wise then the oldest races in the universe.

SemperMortis wrote:

Traditio wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:IG are competitive against other non-competitive armies. Against competitive armies they suck. Plethora of jinking vehicles, re-rolling cover/invulnerable saves, alpha strikers and deep striking shenanigans = death to most IG vehicles/squads

IG are about as fun to play against as Tau.

Just saying.

I disagree about that one pretty strongly. IG at least don't have built in stupidity like Move, shoot, move. Or giant robots that fire more dakka then whole tank squads, but magically count as MC and GMC's because "reasons".

IG are a gunline army but they at least die when you shoot at them.

Deleted. Double tap.

I propose boycotts

Refuse to play anyone who plays IG, wraithknights, scatter bikes or Tau.

Traditio wrote:
I propose boycotts

Refuse to play anyone who plays IG, wraithknights, scatter bikes or Tau.

I refuse to play anyone who brings cheesy lists against my bottom tier orks. But IG generally aren't cheesy and can be beaten with my bottom tier codex if I play the right way. Don't get me wrong there are still lists they can bring which have a lot of cheese in them but I rarely see them do that.

I hate to bring the hate against Eldar but so far in my own personal experience they are the #1 violators of the anti-cheese movement. I have refused more games against Eldar players then every other army put together. A distinctly remember a guy showing up trying to find a game at any points level (500-5,000) and getting turned down every single time. Why? because his entire army he brought was WraithKnights, Scatter Bikes, a bunch of Psyker shenanigans and then the cheese of all cheese, an Eldar TITAN!!!!!!!!

Who does that? seriously.

In that same logic, we should be refusing to play against CSM, DE or Nids...

SemperMortis wrote:I refuse to play anyone who brings cheesy lists against my bottom tier orks. But IG generally aren't cheesy

Lolz.

Explain to me what you would consider "cheesy."

and can be beaten with my bottom tier codex if I play the right way.

You mean, if you meticulously measure out 2 inches between each and every single ork you have, carefully restrict your movement always to be in cover, carefully premeasure your opponents guns with respect to your units, bring tons of jinkable bikes, etc?

Yeah.

That sounds fun. [/sarcasm]

Who does that? seriously.

[Some] people who play Eldar.

Note to self, boycott Traditio

I usually run a lot of Warbikers so meh not a big concern, I also love my battle Wagonz which with AV14 up front aren't overly concerned about IG blast weapons. Plus when My boyz do get into CC with that IG gunline they die in droves.

The biggest difference between IG and Tau is this.

Against Tau the entire game is me trying to close the gap and getting killed before I get there.

Against IG he kills a bunch of my stuff right away, and then I close the gap and I start killing a bunch of his stuff. Realistically that is how it is supposed to be. CC army against Shooty army. GW just Fethed it all up when they did this recent rendition of power creep..

ITT: Some people actually think Guard are on the same tier as Eldar, Tau and SM.

What a world we live in...

There's a clear bias vs gunline armies on this site...

 Bobthehero wrote:
There's a clear bias vs gunline armies on this site...

I again disagree for the above stated reasons which I will put here for convenience sake. I hate Tau armies because they aren't a gunline army. They are a ridiculously fast gunline army that can out pace my own army that is attempting to close that gap. JSJ is a stupid mechanic simple as that. SO yeah I hate them as a gunline because they aren't just a gunline army they are a mobile army

Against IG I have a lot of fun, in that kind of match up it quickly becomes a contest to see how much of my force I can save from IG fire and close the gap to get into CC and my opponent tries to minimize the threats to his gunline at the same time. It becomes a game of numbers and attrition and is a blast for both parties. He likes blowing up my stuff and I like chopping his stuff into itty bitty pieces.

So Yeah not a huge fan of gunlines but I do love the IG.

That wasn't aimed at you in particular